Amanpour – The Search for a New Pope

Date: April 22, 2025
Host: Bianna Golodryga (sitting in for Christiane Amanpour)
Main Guests:

• Christopher Bolido, historian of the papacy
• Rick Spinrad, former NOAA administrator
• Alexander Gabuev, director of Carnegie's Russia Eurasia Center
• Jonathan Pryce, actor (archive interview)

Overview of the Episode

This episode centers on the transition facing the Catholic Church after the death of Pope Francis, examining his legacy and the process of selecting his successor. Key themes include the history and politics of choosing a pope, Francis’s impact on the Church and global issues like climate change, the implications of contemporary global affairs (especially U.S. environmental policy and the Russia–Ukraine conflict), and a cultural reflection on Pope Francis through film.

1. The Papal Transition: Remembering Pope Francis and What Comes Next

(Main Segment Start: 01:15)

Key Discussion Points

• Pope Francis's Death and Legacy:

  • Francis’s humility and modest funeral arrangements are highlighted.
  • His remains will be buried at Santa Maria Maggiore, not in the Vatican.
  • World leaders, including Presidents Trump and Zelensky, to attend the funeral.
  • The upcoming conclave will see 135 cardinals select his successor, most of whom were chosen by Francis himself.

• Significance of Francis’s Final Days:

  • His resilience and spiritual will to carry on were likened to John Paul II.
  • His message connected his suffering to the world’s, offering hope to those facing hardship.
    • “His last messages...were to link his suffering with the suffering of the world of Good Friday.” – Christopher Bolido (03:55)

• Francis’s Papal Style Versus Predecessors:

  • Contrasts are drawn among recent popes, with Francis seen as more pastoral and open to dialogue.
    • “Francis wanted to talk about things. He did not change Catholic doctrine...but what he said was, let's talk about it. And more importantly, the only way to move forward together is to listen. Humbly, shut up and listen.” – Christopher Bolido (05:17)
  • Cautions against reducing papal legacies to progressive vs. traditional labels.

Notable Quotes

• “You don't come down from the cross.” – Reference to John Paul II, cited by Bolido (03:55)
• “It's not about me, it's about we.” – Christopher Bolido on Francis’s ethos (05:17)

2. The Conclave: Selection of a New Pope

(Starts: 06:49)

History and Process

• Evolution of Papal Selection:

  • Conclave process established in 1274 to avoid outside interference—originally actual seclusion with the key (“conclave”).
  • 135 cardinals will gather, many from outside the traditional European power centers for the first time.

• Traditions and Surprises:

  • White smoke signaling a new pope first appeared in 1800.
  • Pope Francis appointed a substantial share of current cardinals, yet the outcome remains far from predictable.
    • “If you go into the conclave as pope, you’re going to come out as a cardinal.” – Christopher Bolido, on the uncertainty of the process (10:07)
  • Surprise choices have marked recent papacies.

Diversity and the Global Church

• Growing likelihood of a non-European pope, perhaps from Africa or Asia.

  • “For the first time in history, half the cardinals who are electing the pope will be from a place other than Europe and North America.” – Christopher Bolido (12:55)
  • Even with a more global pool, conservatism in doctrine may persist among cardinals from the Global South.

• Process and Human Dynamics:

  • Many cardinals may not know each other well—recent synods have fostered more international interaction.

3. Pope Francis’s Climate Legacy and the Trump Administration’s Response

(Starts: 18:58)

Francis’s Impact

• Elevated climate change to a spiritual issue, not solely political or scientific.
  • "Before Pope Francis, climate change was seen as either a political issue or a scientific issue. What his encyclical did was frame it as a spiritual issue." – Jesuit scholar, paraphrased by host (18:58)
• His encyclical “Laudato Si’” inspired global action, influencing the Paris Agreement.
  • “In 2015...he described climate change as, ‘a global problem with grave implications,’ a concept that really shook the world.” – Rick Spinrad (18:58)

U.S. Policy Backlash

• The Trump administration introduced significant cuts to environmental agencies, notably NOAA.
• Rick Spinrad warns that these policy shifts threaten safety, research, and the environmental services that underpin daily life for Americans.
  • “Taking those [services] offline is going to have grave, grave consequences in terms of lives, livelihoods and lifestyles.” – Rick Spinrad (21:18)
• Claims that the private sector cannot replace NOAA’s functions effectively.

Notable Quotes

• “What I'm about to tell you costs each American six cents per day...”
  – Rick Spinrad, on the value and reach of NOAA’s work (23:18)
• “I decided to be an oceanographer when I was in middle school. And seeing my colleagues whom I hold in such high regard treated so disrespectfully tells me that the kind of things that we strive for in this nation in terms of being scientific leaders are not any longer the principles and values we adhere to.” – Rick Spinrad, on personal impact of cuts (29:43)

4. Russia, Ukraine, and Global Security

(Starts: 30:23)

War and Peace Prospects

• Discussion with Alexander Gabuev about why a lasting Russia–Ukraine ceasefire remains elusive.
• U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s suggestion that the U.S. might reduce its role viewed as a “gift” for Putin—no real leverage.
  • “If the United States will stop supporting Ukraine...that's a very good news for Vladimir Putin.” – Alexander Gabuev (32:35)

Economic Pressure and Russian Stability

• Oil prices have fallen, hurting Russia; however, Russian financial authorities are capable, and only a further significant drop would threaten state stability.

“The Russia That Putin Made”:

• Gabuev’s analysis: confrontation with the West is now central to Russian identity, propagated through education, media, and repression.
  • “You have a quarter century that Putin is in charge...and then comes Putin bringing some sort of social stability, but also increasingly repressive regime...” – Alexander Gabuev (35:49)
• Deterrence and defense are now Europe’s priorities, but outreach and incentives for future post-Putin leadership remain important.
  • “The fact...is that Russia will not be defeated in Ukraine anytime soon...Europeans really need to invest in their defense effort. Deterrence, expanding military production.” – Alexander Gabuev (37:38)

5. Cultural Reflection: “The Two Popes” and Legacy in Popular Culture

(Starts: 44:50 — archive interview)

Film and the Human Element

• Actor Jonathan Pryce discusses portraying Pope Francis in “The Two Popes.”
  • Remarks on Francis’s personal and political charisma:
    • “He was talking to me about political issues and about the economy, about the inequality in the world...So I was drawn to him because of these issues less to do with the Church.” – Jonathan Pryce (47:24)
• The film explores themes of faith, doubt, forgiveness, and leadership.
  • “They are self aware, they question themselves and they have doubts...I think this makes him much closer to people.” – Jonathan Pryce, on both characters (50:10)
• On the Church’s handling of abuse:
  • “Francis is. His main objective is to say the victims need help. And it's not a stain on our society. It's a wound that needs to be healed.” – Jonathan Pryce (54:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Papal transition and legacy: 01:15–11:22
• Conclave process, chances for a non-European pope: 06:49–16:17
• Pope Francis’s climate legacy and U.S. politics: 18:58–30:07
• Russia–Ukraine conflict and global security: 30:23–43:52
• “The Two Popes” and popular culture: 44:50–54:26

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Shut up and listen.” – Christopher Bolido on Francis’s method of leadership (05:17)
• “The only constant in church history is change.” – Christopher Bolido (09:26)
• “If you go into the conclave as pope, you'll come out as a cardinal.” – Christopher Bolido (10:07)
• “So all of that environmental intelligence, which allows people, industries, every sector of commerce is invoked in terms of what NOAA does is provided for 6 cents a day.” – Rick Spinrad (23:18)
• “Focus on European deterrence, expanding defence production and doing everything possible to beef up Ukrainian defence capabilities is the priority course of action.” – Alexander Gabuev (41:04)
• “It's not a stain on our society. It's a wound that needs to be healed.” – Jonathan Pryce as Pope Francis (54:26)

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look at the complex legacy of Pope Francis as the Catholic Church braces for a momentous transition. It underscores the interplay between religious leadership, global politics, and cultural narrative—highlighting how faith, environment, war, and popular representation all interconnect at this historic juncture.