Hadi Khaimi (3:59)

Yes. Hello, Biana, and thank you for having me. This indeed has been a month since a massacre that has left the country in shock, rage, grieving and anger, and a lot of expectation that the Islamic Republic should be coming to its end, given the atrocities it has committed. I would say that there is no one in Iran anymore, even within the regime's loyalists, who can sincerely and honestly tell themselves that this regime or this government represents any segment of the country that wants it to stay as its representative. The regime we knew was brutal, but now its criminal side has shown that it is ideologically committed to perpetrating atrocities that none of us really expected. Over 48 hours, as you said, at least 7,000 people have been killed. Over 50,000 people are in detentions without any information of what is happening to them. Hundreds of children have been killed. So generally, the mood in the country is very much of rage and wanting change and wanting to see an end to this Islamic Republic, hopefully in the soon future, even though there are many moving parts, as we know, both regionally, internationally and domestically. And a lot of things have to work coherently for a peaceful transition of power. But it seems like the leadership of the Islamic Republic is committed to ultimate violence and does not want to cede power in any peaceful process?

Bianna Golodryga (6:05)

Yeah. And to that point, and at the height of the protest and immediately after, many had predicted what you just said, the end of the regime, and yet it persists, obviously highly aware of its vulnerability right now, both domestically and internationally, given that its proxies have been weakened, its nuclear program has been severely crippled, and there are reports that the US Administration had been planning on some sort of decapitation strategy against the IRGC and ultimately the supreme Leader, Ali Khomeini. At some point, and I know it's been a month now, and we still have the United States circling the country and the region with its assets as these talks continue, do you think there is a viable plan if, in fact that strategy of going after the IRGC and the Supreme Leader is acted upon by the US.

Hadi Khaimi (7:08)

Well, we all know that at the moment, the final decisions that President Trump makes are unknown to almost everyone till that last minute. So I'm sure there are several plans offered to him and on the table. The question is, what will his priority be and what will his goal be? But to be honest with you, the end of the Islamic Republic must come with the help of the entire international community. While the American president is making up his mind what to focus on, we need to activate the Security Council. We need to get the larger international community involved. We need to start referrals to the International Criminal Court. We need to start cutting off oil revenue for this regime. The only reason it can continue to fund these atrocities is because of the sales of the oil it does primarily to China. And we need to isolate it on every front. All of its ambassadors should be expelled from Europe and other countries. All international organizations should suspend its membership. At the moment, FIFA should be expelling it from the upcoming World Cup. The people in the country want to see some actions by all of the international community while President Trump decides what to do. If he decides to go on with a broad military campaign, then that is also something that has to be coupled with, with domestic and political actions that the Iranian opposition needs to come together and be part of this formula very soon.

Bianna Golodryga (8:52)

So a decapitation strategy would only work, in your view, if it's done in accordance with the international community responding and isolating Iran aggressively, too, which has not happened at the scale that you have just noted your organization has highlighted since the mass killings last month. House to house raids, strip searching to identify even wounded protesters. I mentioned Nargis Mohamedi being sentenced to another seven years in prison. Christiane actually spoke with her in December of 2024 when she was released from prison for three weeks as she was undergoing recovery from an operation. And here's what she said about what she'd experienced. And we managed to make our way.

Maria Ressa (9:41)

To the prison yard. And it was then that the male prison guards came and stood there. And once we started chanting loudly, they.

Bianna Golodryga (9:53)

Started hitting me on the chest, whereas.

Maria Ressa (9:56)

I was supposed to go for an angiography and my arteries were blocked, yet they were beating me on my chest. So that was not nothing accidental. It was deliberate on their part.

Bianna Golodryga (10:12)

And these were tactics, we should note, that the IRGC and those forces undertook, the security forces undertook over a year ago. I know you've described this regime as a, quote, wounded animal going after every perceived threat. How has that intensified since Then.

Hadi Khaimi (10:33)

Well, during this past year we've seen, we've seen how it's intensified by what happened in January. And Nargis, of course, has been in detention since late November. All of this goes back to the fact that the regime benefiting from the lack of a cohesive and unified political opposition to it. An opposition that at home exists, but it's under the very strong repression of the regime. And yet there are millions of Iranians in the diaspora who also have a political muscle and opposition. If these two come together at this moment, it can make a huge difference. And I just want to mention one of the main political thinkers in Iran, a political scientist at Tehran University, highly respected Hatam Qadiri, has been promoting a national congress that should urgently bring together a coalition and even potentially a government in exile to start wrestling power away from Islamic Republic both domestically and on the international front. And I hope and I know that there are many efforts being made in the soon future, in the coming weeks, hopefully for such a national body to come together so that the Islamic Republic doesn't benefit from confronting people like Nargis. Just as individuals. We need all political figures and their political persuasions come together so Islamic Republic cannot isolate and deactivate them like the way it does with Nargis and continuous imprisonment of her.

Bianna Golodryga (12:17)

Would you envision Reza Pahlavi having a place in that body?

Hadi Khaimi (12:23)

Absolutely. He has emerged as one of the political opposition figures that people in Iran are recognizing. But he himself has said that he doesn't represent everyone and he needs a coalition and we all need a coalition right now. No one can claim claim to be the next political entity in Iran or their political persuasion to be the dominant one. Nobody even has a political party or a structure to make that claim. What we need is pull to all our resources from left to right, from republican to monarchists. All of them come together. And I hope that we will meet this historical responsibility that's put on our shoulders. Otherwise Islamic Republic could last more months and years and much more. Worse or much worse atrocities could be on their way.

Bianna Golodryga (13:19)

How are you interpreting the ongoing arrests and treatment of some of the country's so called reformists now, even as talks are ongoing between Iranian officials and U.S. officials? And we saw what happened in Oman and we know that these talks may be continuing. We'll see. But what do you make of what's happening at home in the meantime?

Hadi Khaimi (13:45)

Well, I see it as a continuity of what I was just discussing, the need for a coalition of opposition forces coming together. And these reformists who have been detained. They could obviously also play a role in the coming months as part of the system within the system that could make such a coalition more impactful. So the regime is really, as I'm saying, is trying to divide, control, repress and survive. And these reformist politicians are also being put away so that no one is able to talk to them or bring them into a coalition between inside, outside country. Again, I'm calling for a very large umbrella that includes all proponents of the Islamic Republic and the Supreme.

Bianna Golodryga (14:33)

And where is President Pezechkin in all of this? Obviously, we know that it is a supreme leader who carries and wields the ultimate power in decision making. But we did hear from Pezeshkian in the early days of these protests, even speaking publicly, acknowledging some of the strain and some of the pressure that Iranians are undergoing as it relates to the economy, and that all changed quickly as the murders began. Where is he in this?

Hadi Khaimi (15:06)

It's hard to say. But I see him personally as a confused and conflicted individual who understands that the Islamic Republic is not meeting the demands of the people, who understands that the crisis needs to be solved broadly and not through repression. And yet he does not have the courage to say the supreme leader should not be controlling the country any longer, that he has failed. He still wants, as a politician to survive through his loyalty to the supreme leader. And as such, I do not see him providing any positive path forward. It was his government who cooperated with the Revolutionary Guards to commit the massacre. So I see him implicated in the massacre that happened and as one of the perpetrators of crimes against humanity.

Bianna Golodryga (16:05)

As we noted, Prime Minister Netanyahu will be traveling, I believe, for his seventh trip to the United States since Trump took over and began his second term as president. What will you be watching for coming out of these meetings? What do you expect Prime Minister Netanyahu will be saying to President Trump on this issue?

Hadi Khaimi (16:27)

Well, according to reports out of Israel, he's going there to make sure that American administration is in coordination with Israeli interests in these negotiations and to make sure that the result of the negotiation does not end with something that Israel is unhappy about. But the fact is that what I watch for from either government is what is the balance between their concerns over the nuclear issue, regional proxies, ballistic missiles versus domestic affairs, and what is happening in the country and the interests of the people. I want to highly emphasize that these negotiations, their biggest failure is that they do not include any representatives of the Iranian people. The nuclear issue is not the Iranian people's issue. The nuclear issue is the Islamic Republic's card for 30 years to manipulate and continue its policies in the region and internationally by keeping everyone preoccupied with the nuclear issue. The real issue for me is that who is representing Iranian people? And would any of them be listening to Iranian people? People and realize that their interest has to be represented here in these negotiations and they should not be ignored.

Bianna Golodryga (17:50)

And these interests you think should be represented publicly. So from your perspective, would it be better or from the Iranians that are there so bravely protesting and waiting for some sort of response and accountability, would it be in their interest to have one of these opposition leaders or figureheads, even Reza Pahlavi? I don't know. I don't put words in your mouth. Meeting publicly with President Trump.

Hadi Khaimi (18:16)

No, that's not at all what I'm promoting. What I'm promoting is that President Trump and his administration, as well as Israeli government reach out to a broader international community and really make this a global issue that we should recognize an Iranian opposition front, not just an individual. Reza Pahlavi, as we mentioned, is a major political figure right now, but he does not represent everyone. But if he comes together in a coalition with other legitimate actors, then both Israel, us in tandem with other countries should welcome them and start discussing that. How could they help them to transition, to, to work toward a peaceful transition of power?

Bianna Golodryga (19:05)

Yeah. And you have noted that the killing machine will gather steam once again unless its cost is raised. And that is something that you are once again reinforcing. Hadi Khaimi, your work is so important. Thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it.

Hadi Khaimi (19:21)

Thank you for having me.

Bianna Golodryga (19:23)

And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break. What is it about Australia that just hits different? Australia is where we shared our first.

Brian Mann (19:34)

Kiss, where we fell in love. That was 18 years ago now.

Bianna Golodryga (19:39)

And this is what, your fourth trip back.

Brian Mann (19:41)

Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.

Bianna Golodryga (19:44)

The ocean, the people, the oysters, so good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's journey@australia.com.

Maria Ressa (19:56)

And start planning the vacation of a lifetime.

Bianna Golodryga (20:00)

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy this week on the podcast Terms of Service. Online dating has been part of modern romance for years now. And it's no surprise that as the Internet evolves, so too does the matchmaking. To better understand the current state of online dating, I turn to Hinge CEO Jackie Jantos, whose own marriage is a dating app success story. Have an open mind. Show up as yourself. Earnestly put effort into the experience. Try to overcome some of the hesitation you feel to put yourself out there because vulnerability and discomfort, this is all part of relationships. Listen to CNN's Terms of Service wherever you get your podcasts. Now, as we noted, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is on his way to Washington to urge American negotiators to take a tougher approach in nuclear talks with Iran. And ahead of his US Trip, Israel is taking a series of sweeping measures to tighten its grip on the occupied West Bank. Far right Minister Bazal El Smotrich says that the measures will fundamentally change the legal and civil reality in the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority condemns the measures, saying that they amount to plans for annexation and displacement. Correspondent Nick Robertson has the story.

Nick Robertson (21:20)

It's really interesting because the same group of international countries that President Trump lent on to give support and credibility to his Gaza peace plan late last year that envisaged a Palestinian state is now sort of those same countries criticizing what Israel is doing because they see it as shutting down that possible pathway to a Palestinian state that President Trump's 20 point peace plan talked about. The Palestinian Authority sees this as just a way that war is being waged on the Palestinian people. That's what they say. Azor Smotrich, the far right finance minister here in Israel, who's the author and the sort of engine behind this change that's making it easier for settlers to get property inside the west bank, to get land inside the West Bank, a vision he's always had and one that has really pushed to enable settlers to not just take land, but to legitimize the taking of that land. And, and now this next step, while it seems an incremental part of a process that this far right right wing alliance in and around Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is intent on doing, although it seems incremental, it is significant because the push and the drive is there to do it from part of the Israeli side. And this is going to make it easier and therefore put pressure on, on those Palestinians inside the west bank and drive them, they assess, to sort of live in smaller and smaller areas, be pushed into their big cities. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the uae, Qatar, Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan have all jointly signed a letter condemning this act by Israel. But remember, those were the eight countries that President Trump went to in the margins of the UN General General Assembly September last year when he was proposing his 20 point peace plan for Gaza. And they came back to him later and said all this talk back in the fall of last year about annexation in the West Bank. We don't support that. We don't want it. So President Trump actually came out then and said he was against annexation of the West Bank. So all of that in context, those same countries that supported President Trump's 20 point peace plan, which included the possibility of a path to Palestinian statehood, are coming out again. So when President Trump meets with Prime Minister Netanyahu, these eight nations, of course, and others will be hoping that the president brings that up with the Israeli prime minister as an issue of concern.

Bianna Golodryga (24:05)

Our thanks to Nick Robertson for that report from Jerusalem. Well, medal counts are racking up in the 2026 Milan Cortina winter Games record were broken and broken again by a pair of Dutch women speed skaters in the space of just minutes. And in the adrenaline filled world of curling, an American duo knocked out the defending gold medalist from Italy in the mixed doubles competition, setting up a gold medal match against Sweden. But as the games heat up in Italy, some athletes can't escape the politics at home. Facing media questions about turmoil in the US Athletes have been calling for tolerance and respect, including this from skier Hunter Hess.

Brian Mann (24:47)

It brings up mixed emotions to represent the US Right now. I think it's a little hard. There's obviously a lot going on that I'm not the biggest fan of, and I think a lot of people aren't. Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the U.S. so, yeah, I just kind of want to do it for my friends and my family and the people that support me getting here.

Bianna Golodryga (25:09)

President Trump then labeled Hess a real loser in a social media Post. Well, NPR's Brian Mann is in Milan reporting on the competition and all the controversy. Brian, welcome to the program. Let's get to the politics in a moment because I do want to start with the sports and all eyes will be on figure skating tonight, specifically American skater Maxine Naumov, who takes to the ice after enormous, enormous heartbreak following the death of his parents. That tragic plane crash that killed not only his parents but dozens of others just over a year ago. What has this road to Milan meant for him and for all of those who have been supporting these bereaved skaters?

Brian Mann (26:00)

Yeah, it was really a shattering frame to this Olympic season that the whole team suffered that kind of loss and his parents dying in that crash. The fact that he's been able to come back and train and build this incredible season tonight is going to be, you know, really quite profound to watch. You know, the other thing that is happening in this Olympic season.

Bianna Golodryga (26:32)

I believe I've lost Brian's audio. I don't know if you guys can hear him in the control room. Okay, we will take a quick break and try to work on this technical issue and come right back.

Hadi Khaimi (26:48)

My day kicks off with a refreshing.

Brian Mann (26:50)

Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym, pre K pickup back home to meal prep.

Hadi Khaimi (26:55)

Time for my fire station shift.

Brian Mann (26:57)

One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.

Hadi Khaimi (27:00)

I'm ready.

Hari Sreenivasan (27:01)

Celsius Live Fit.

Brian Mann (27:03)

Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

Bianna Golodryga (27:15)

It's not about knowing that exercise is good for you, that's going to necessarily motivate you to exercise, but there's a lot of inner barriers, psychological barriers to moving our bodies.

Brian Mann (27:26)

That's Dr. Diana Hill. She's a psychologist, and she's also co authored a really interesting book with biomechanist Katie Bowman. It's called I Know I should exercise but 44 reasons we don't Move and How to get over them. 44 reasons specifically. We're gonna talk about a lot of those reasons and how to motivate yourself to move your body. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Bianna Golodryga (27:57)

Okay. Welcome back to the program. I believe that we have regained our connection with Brian. If you can hear me, Brian, I was asking you and you were responding to the road here to Milan for Maxime Naom, who lost both of his parents in that tragic plane crash, along with dozens of others from the skating community a little over a year ago. Just being here is a victory in and of itself. But tell us how the community is responding and embracing him.

Brian Mann (28:30)

It has been visible here in Milan how people have really come around this entire US Skating team, him in particular. But, yeah, this has been really one of the things that's reshaped this community. A lot of these skaters have talked more and more in recent years about mental health, about the kind of support that they need to do this incredibly demanding, emotional sport well. And this has really tested the boundaries of that. And again, we'll see through the competition tonight how well he is able to come and put that out on the ice.

Bianna Golodryga (29:06)

And to the point of one's mindset and struggles, both mentally and obviously physically, one can't help but raise Lindsey Vonn and the courage that she really had shown going into this competition at 41 years of age with a ruptured ACL and sobering news Obviously, when she crashed just a day or two ago at the women's downhill finals, breaking her leg. Ultimately, here's what she posted on Instagram. While yesterday did not end the way I had hoped, and despite the intense physical pain it caused, I have no regrets. Standing in the starting gate yesterday was an incredible feeling that I will never forget. Knowing I stood there, having a chance to win was a victory in and of itself. I also knew that racing was a risk. It was always. It always would be an incredibly dangerous sport. What does that tell us about her mindset? And as Christine Brennan, our colleague here covering these Games, said, that this was the ultimate example of Lindsey Vaughn being Lindsey Von On.

Brian Mann (30:12)

I think that's right. You know, this is a competitor who. Who saw an opportunity to come back at age 41. She trained for it. A lot of people thought that this might be pushing the boundaries of what was possible. But then she's competed brilliantly over this World cup season. Even after that ACL tear, she looked strong in some of the early training runs. What she said in that social media post is that she does not feel that that contributed to the crash. That she was just a little bit out of position. About 5 inches out of position, she said, so that she caught that flag, it twisted her off balance, and she landed incredibly hard. So she's saying that this is the kind of crash that could have happened to any skier at any age.

Bianna Golodryga (30:56)

Of course, we wish her a speedy recovery. This has also been billed as the most gender representative Winter Games yet, with women making up 47% of the competition here. How meaningful is that number for the world of sports and for the Olympic Games themselves?

Brian Mann (31:18)

You know, I've been covering Olympic Games for a long time, and it has been a revolutionary change to sport, the way that women have moved into more events, more sports. There is still one sport, Nordic Combined, where athletes ski cross country and jump, where women are not yet allowed in. That's an issue here at these Games. Some women are protesting intensely, saying that they need to be involved in this last sport. But there is enormous progress this year on the cross country course. For the first time in history, women will compete at the same distances as men, and they'll compete in all the same events as men. And so there have been barriers, years knocked down year by year. Early in my career as a reporter, we saw women break into ski jumping. These places that used to really be walled off. We've just seen incredible performances. And this is, I think, the thing that's exciting to see is that once women do break through that barrier, then we're just seeing them dominate these sports, do amazing performances in these sports, and that we've. We've definitely seen another big step forward here in Milan.

Bianna Golodryga (32:23)

And, of course, all eyes on the women's ice hockey match between Team USA and Canada upcoming as well. Getting to the politics and the controversy that that has generated, we saw not the American team, but the vice president and second lady booed in Milan the opening day there for the Games. And then we heard the American athlete, the freestyle skier Hunter Hess, in the introduction there, when asked about his views on what was transpiring on the streets of the United States and some of the President's policies respond the way he did, which led to the President calling him a real loser. Hess then turned to Instagram and posted, one of the many things that makes this country so amazing is that we have the right and the freedom to point that out. And I was struck by even chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov, himself a Russian dissident, weighing in on this and writing in his daily newsletter about what has happened. And he said, a question for Americans, both those who sympathize with the dissident athletes and those who support the administration. Do you ever hear the Russian athletes criticizing their government? The Chinese, the North Koreans? Of course not. Those regimes would never tolerate the, frankly, mild criticism that American athletes are now voicing. What is your reaction to all of this? I mean, in one way, I would imagine it was. It was sort of inevitable and expected the fact that athletes would be asked about what's happening in their own countries. But how about the President? President's reaction to it all?

Brian Mann (34:13)

Yeah, that was surprising that the President felt that he needed to chime in, in that way and to fire back. But I think one thing that's really surprised me also here is that a lot of these athletes are clearly eager to talk about this. Sometimes you go to a big sporting event and it's really reporters who are kind of pulling athletes into a discussion of politics or a cultural issue. But in this, this case, athletes have been posting on social media about what's happening in Minneapolis and other parts of the US the violence and the turmoil. And when asked about it here during press conferences, they often lean in and they speak expansively about wanting more tolerance. And I think it reflects a couple of realities. First of all, this is an incredibly diverse Team usa. There are people here from all ethnicities, all backgrounds.

Maria Ressa (34:59)

Conference.

Brian Mann (34:59)

One of the most powerful things that happened here after that exchange between Hunter Hess and the President was a press conference with the superstar snowboarder, Chloe Kim. She's the daughter of immigrants from South Korea. She talked about the fact that her story, her family's story, made this incredibly meaningful for her to talk about. And she, too, sort of planted a flag saying, we deserve the right to talk about these issues.

Bianna Golodryga (35:25)

Yeah, we have that sound, actually, from Chloe Kim and other athletes who were asked about this as well. Let's play it. Obviously, my parents being immigrants, this one definitely hits pretty close to close to home. And I think in moments like these, it is really important for us to unite and kind of stand up for one another for all that going on. And I think that I'm really proud to represent the United States. The US has given my family and I so much opportunity, but I also think that we are allowed to voice our opinions on what's going on, and I think that we need to lead with love and compassion, and I would love to see some more of that.

Brian Mann (36:13)

First of all, I'd like to say I'm proud to be here to represent Team USA and to represent our country, but we'd be remiss if we didn't at least mention what's going on in.

Bianna Golodryga (36:26)

Minnesota and what a tough time it's been for everybody. And it's interesting that you pick up that during other competitions, we've seen athletes avoid stepping into politics. And what is happening in the United States right now? We just saw that recently with the Australian Open, and athletes asked the same question, and their response was more focused on the matches than what is happening on the streets of the United States. Do you think it is fair game, or do you think that reporters should be asking athletes who have spent so many years, months, training for. For these. These crucial moments about what's happening back home?

Brian Mann (37:17)

Yeah, it's a really good question, and here's what I would say. First of all, what's happening in Milan Cortina is overwhelmingly focused on sport and competition and medals and the joy of this place. It's really been an Olympic Games that's gone off very smoothly so far. The United States has already registered some amazing performances. And, you know, in our conversation here, we're kind of dialed into this one thing, but most of what the athletes are being asked about is that other stuff, their performances on the snow. And I've been surprised by the fact that many of these competitors really seem to be sort of ready to go again. They're talking about it on their own social media feeds. They're volunteering their own stories, their own views. And when these questions have come up. You know, they're not leaning back away from those microphones. Many of them are not. Many of them are leaning in and saying, you know, I'd like to share this view. And you know, one of the things that's true is that a lot of these athletes come from communities that have been directly affected. They come from near Portland, Oregon. They come from near Minneapolis or in Minneapolis. And so this is a political story. The Olympics always have a political dimension. But this year the politics of the world are playing out in these young athletes communities. And it's clearly on their minds and.

Bianna Golodryga (38:33)

Felt most, one would argue, when there's a war still ongoing in your own home country. And that's exactly the case for Ukrainian skeleton racer Vladislav Hrastkovich, who has accused the IOC of betrayal after his helmet which was honoring athletes. There have been a score of athletes that have been killed since the war began and he was banned from wearing that helmet for violating rules on political expression. He's received public backing from President Zelensky instead, I believe the IOC said that he could wear a black armband. He came out today and said despite that ban on the helmet, he will wear it. Just talk about the significance of that.

Brian Mann (39:23)

Yeah. I've spent time covering the war in Ukraine and this is a moment when the country is just under incredible pressure. And this is an athlete who arrived here wanting to show that solidarity. The IOC has this incredibly complicated narrative where they try to push non political action out in the sporting field. Sometimes that's very hard to maintain. And that's where this conflict is happening right now.

Bianna Golodryga (39:48)

Brian Mann, really great to talk to you and appreciate you taking the time to speak with us about primarily the Games. But it's hard not to talk about the politics and situations and war as it relates to Vladislav that so many of these athletes are also grappling with in these days. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Appreciate the time.

Brian Mann (40:14)

Thanks for having me.

Bianna Golodryga (40:17)

225 executive orders, crackdowns on immigration and major funding cuts to scientific research and usaid. The US has transformed significantly since President Trump returned to office over a year ago. And as public trust in American institutions erodes, Nobel Prize laureate Maria Reza warns of a narrative warfare being waged by Trump not unlike the quote, far more insidious what than she experienced in the Philippines under former leader Rodrigo Duterte. Maria Ressa joins Hari Sreenivasan to speak about her recent report on the subject.

Hari Sreenivasan (40:54)

Piana, thanks. Maria Ressa, thanks so much for joining us. Maria, you have been an outspoken advocate for the press, especially when you were in the Philippines and you witnessed and lived through how that government cracked down on the press. And you wrote a recent report at the Nerve, which looked at the first hundred days of the second Trump administration, in which you said, we recognize the warning signs immediately. It was a systematic importation and evolution of the authoritarian playbook that we survived in the Philippines. Put this in perspective for us. Compared to what you witnessed in the Philippines, how concerned are you for the United States?

Maria Ressa (41:37)

Extremely concerned. I mean, you know, I tell friends I have both deja vu and ptsd. And every development, it's like, oh, my God, we've lived through this. And oh, my God, what is happening? Look, the report's title is Narrative Warfare and the Breakdown of Reality. I think if you don't look at the data, you miss that cumulative effect, the way people's behavior changed, Right? So just on social media alone, we knew lies spread six times faster. That's a 2018 MIT study. But we saw in the Philippines in 2017, if you lace it with fear, anger, and hate, it goes viral. And then it isn't just the virality. It's also the seeding of a meta narrative that is a lie, but then the opportunistic amplification every time. So a lie told a million times becomes a fact. If you can't fact from fiction. If people believe lies are facts, then you can control them. And what we're seeing here is the same thing that we lived through in the Philippines, which is narrative warfare. Up top. In the first hundred days of Trump 2.0, it was 143 executive orders that didn't just act as policy or dismantle institutions like USAID in the physical world, they were content triggers in the virtual world, where the public information ecosystem's design is determined by big tech for profit. So those 143eos literally created this narrative warfare that would be the top of the funnel. What's the end goal? The second part of it is when people can't tell fact from fiction, civic engagement disappears. And the middle of it is the dismantling of institutions. There are no checks and balances. We lived through this in the Philippines under Rodrigo Duterte in 2016. It took him six months. I think our report posits to you that in America, it happened within 100 days. 143 EOs. And then the last part, the biggest change from 2016 to today is the fusion of state with big tech. And you can see that in the dismantling of safety Measures that had been put in place, that had been demanded by the world. By 2024, we had these measures, but then Facebook just decided to take them down. No fact checking, and people went to vote. In America with more propaganda than facts, news organizations, distribution was far less than it should have been. We are living through an information Armageddon. In order to make democracy work, we need a shared reality. And I've said this over and over the three sentences since 2016, facts don't spread as fast as lies, right? So if you don't have facts, you can't have truth. Without truth, you can't have trust. Without these three, we have a shared reality. You can't have journalism, you can't have democracy.

Hari Sreenivasan (44:37)

You know, let's break that down a little bit. So, so say, for example, an executive order comes out. How does it go through the sort of tech ecosystem?

Maria Ressa (44:46)

Look, first, it's not an accident like we called it in the report, a deconstruction model. Where in the past the persuasion model, a government would have to persuade its citizens, have discussions about policy. Right? But what happened here with a deconstruction model is the gatekeepers, institutional gatekeepers. The press, Congress, legislature, think tanks, the academics. All of the discussion that goes around a policy, should we dismantle USAID is completely thrown out. And the content triggers then, so that when the EO happens, the content trigger goes in. The administration uses executive actions to create narrative events. They're amplified, a decentralized network of influencers. Influencers. They reframe these events for politically aligned communities. And then it's reinforced by platform algorithms that reward this emotional behavior. You know, it becomes politics, becomes a gladiator's battle to the death. But I think more interesting than all of this are this, this isn't an accident. There's a deliberate political strategy that leverages direct, unmediated communication to bypass traditional checks and balances. There's a technological architecture that's. Social media platforms are built to reward emotions, they spread further. And then there's an economic model, the creator economy. And no offense to influencers and creators, but you are part of an ecosystem that monetizes attention and, and it creates this powerful financial incentive. So TikTok was the most interesting because it's all about spectacle and moving it away from policy to personalities. It's influencer driven reality. Independent creators drove 66% of all engagement, dwarfing mainstream media, which only had 32%. Instead of talking about policy, it went to barrenness Trump instead. It, it created the presidency as pop culture. It Softens the image of authoritarian power for younger audiences. Americans now get their news from social media, right? In TikTok, complex executive orders were stripped of all meaning of context, and they were repackaged as memes and irony.

Hari Sreenivasan (47:22)

So what happens when the institutions that used to stand in the middle, whether it's Congress or an independent press, get eroded away or are made, well, inconsequential, less relevant by this sort of information funnel and this warfare that you're talking.

Maria Ressa (47:39)

About, impunity, what you get, literally and you know in how to stand up to a dictator, most people assume. The dictator I was talking about is Rodrigo Duterte, who, by the way, was arrested March last year. He is now jailed in the Hague awaiting a trial. The charge against him is crimes against humanity. Right? But the bigger dictator in how to stand up to a dictator was Mark Zuckerberg, right? He's not elected. He determines what billions of people around the world see and feel and influences the way we act insidiously. When you see in my country, it was my government that attacked me, and you're seeing some of this happening, actually, that's the narrative warfare we lay out in the report here. But for me, look, in 2017, the narrative warfare against me was arrest. Maria Ressa trended, and then I was arrested in 2019. But in 2017, it was laughable. So it's like fertilizer seeding the ground. The commodification of news has led to a steady decline in the kind of news that reaches the widest audience, and that goes hand in hand with when someone in power like President Trump, like President Duterte, calls an investigative report fake news, an investigative reporter fake news that is very, very different and carries consequences. When the gatekeepers are gone, then you have unrestrained power, and the impunity happens not just at the state level, but also at the technology that underpins this.

Hari Sreenivasan (49:29)

You have been very critical of Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, and you've called him kind of more dangerous and a bigger dictator than Duterte. And I mean, well, look, Duterte has admitted to having death squads. He's literally killed hundreds, if not more thousands of people. Why is Zuckerberg worse, in your opinion?

Maria Ressa (49:50)

Here's an easy one that everyone has already agreed to. And I've watched the narrative shift over time. 2018, Myanmar, where it was genocide in Myanmar enabled by Facebook. And both Facebook and the UN Sent its teams to investigate that. They came out with the same. With the same conclusion that it had enabled this. I've watched this in the Philippines. I've lived through it, like literally. Literally. I'm not just giving you data, I'm giving you the experience of it. And if we don't fix it, democracy will not survive through it. You'll have a lot of companies with a lot of profit, but it comes at a societal, at a global expense. At some point the world will tip. And it's the same in a closed system. When a meta narrative is seeded, you pound it opportunistically. At some point it takes over the system. We're at that phase, the problem globally. And you're seeing this whether it is in the UK or France or Germany or even Canada, right? Or Australia. What you're seeing is the democratic leaders are standing on wood that is being eaten by termites. And that wood will collapse until we extinguish the termites. That's what narrative warfare does. You.

Hari Sreenivasan (51:18)

Look at this as not a free speech issue. If we wanted to try to constrain some of what the social media platforms are doing today, you're saying, stop trying to argue the speech case, start looking at the safety case.

Maria Ressa (51:37)

Explain that this is by design harmful to us. And where we've seen the most progress, and this is bipartisan even in the United States is on safety for kids, right? I mean, think about how corrupted this is. Lies spread faster. If you lace it with fear, anger and hate, it spreads even faster. Did you actually agree to be cloned in the virtual world? Data privacy is largely a myth now in America, right? Like I didn't agree to that. There's a little bit more protection if you're in the eu. The laws in the EU helped us in the global South. So a lot of this, everything in the physical world is now being replicated in the virtual world. But democratic countries also abdicated responsibility for protecting its citizens in the virtual world. Right? In November 2022, we came up about 300 Nobel laureates, civil society groups. We came up with a 10 point action plan that boils down to just three buckets. The first is to stop. Stop surveillance for profit. We did not give approval to be cloned. And this kind of, you know, this kind of cloning insidiously manipulates us. So stop surveillance for profit. The second one is stop coded bias. Because if you are a woman or LGBTQ plus if you are brown or black or part of any ethnic minority, you're further marginalized online. The third is journalism as an antidote to tyrann me. Because think about the system that big tech created. Social media first, and now let's we can talk about Chatbot separately. But in social media, what's rewarded? Right? A news organization separates the publisher, the arm that has to make money from the the journalism group that has to call a spade a spade, that has to tell you things you may not want to hear. What Big Tech did, is it rewarded telling you everything you want to hear without any guardrails in place? So that's the next phase. We have a shared reality on facts. When that happens, we can have civilized policy discussions. We can agree to disagree. We can learn. That's the other part, right? It's not the cult of the amateur. And finally, the last part of it is that builds community. That's how we bring disparate voices together by finding our common ground. If we don't fix the public information ecosystem, everything we do downstream will collapse because we live in toxic sludge.

Hari Sreenivasan (54:35)

Nobel Peace Prize laureate and CEO of Rappler, Maria Rissa. Thanks so much for your time.

Maria Ressa (54:39)

No, thank you.

Bianna Golodryga (54:42)

And finally, approximately 2,300 miles, nine states, millions of supporters and one trusty canine companion. Today, a group of Buddhist monks completed their walk for peace across America. Arriving in Washington D.C. over three months after they set off from Fort Worth, Texas. Through freezing temperatures, serious injury and exhaustion, the monks kept going, carrying a message of unity, healing and compassion. With every step, we leave you with one of the lessons they shared along the way. This is the beautiful truth about peace. When you give it away, it doesn't diminish, it multiplies. When you share joy, you don't lose it, you create more of it. I love those words. What a fitting way to end the show. That is it for now for us. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from New York. What is it about Australia that just hits different? Australia is where we shared our first.

Brian Mann (55:47)

Kiss, where we fell in love. That was 18 years ago now.

Bianna Golodryga (55:52)

And this is what, your fourth trip back?

Brian Mann (55:54)

Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.

Bianna Golodryga (55:57)

The ocean, the people, the oysters. So good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's journey@australia.com.

Maria Ressa (56:09)

And start planning the vacation of a lifetime.

Brian Mann (56:13)

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are living with life altering losses. My guest is writer, poet Megan Fowley, who was married to the poet Andrea Gibson. Andrea died last summer after a years long battle with cancer. Is grief different than you thought?

Hadi Khaimi (56:37)

It would be.

Bianna Golodryga (56:38)

Yes, it is. I don't think that I thought that I would be able to have as much joy as I've had. I guess if I wasn't able to find joy and laughter now, I would have missed the point of Andrea's messaging. Talking, grief, building community.

Brian Mann (57:00)

That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.