Tough Year for the BBC, British Monarchy

Summary

Amanpour – "Tough Year for the BBC, British Monarchy"

CNN Podcasts | December 10, 2025
Host: Christiane Amanpour

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour focuses on the mounting challenges facing two of Britain’s most iconic institutions—the BBC and the monarchy—in a turbulent year marked by leadership crises and growing public scrutiny. Christiane Amanpour speaks at length with veteran journalist David Dimbleby about his new documentary, "What's the Monarchy For?", examining royal power, money, and image. The episode also features an intimate interview with Booker Prize-winning novelist Kiran Desai about her much-anticipated new novel, "The Loneliness of Sonia and Sonny," and concludes with a report on anti-immigrant rhetoric targeting Minnesota’s Somali community, with State Senator Zainab Mohamed responding to Donald Trump’s recent tirades.

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I. The British Monarchy Under Scrutiny

[01:11–15:22]

Main Discussion Points

• Documentary Motivations

  • David Dimbleby sought to rigorously examine the monarchy as a system, not just its ceremonial events.
  • Inspired by the Queen's earlier statement: “All institutions benefit from criticism, including the monarchy and none of them should avoid scrutiny." ([02:47])
  • Highlighted rising anti-monarchy sentiment in Scotland, Wales, and among the youth.

• Barriers to Transparency

  • Dimbleby detailed difficulties in getting insiders to speak candidly:
    “Getting people to speak about the monarchy was like blood out of a stone.” ([04:24])
  • Use of intentionally cryptic, non-committal language by royal staff—especially around sensitive issues such as finances and crises (e.g., Diana’s death).

• Monarchy’s Dual Role & Public Perception

  • Tension between the monarchy’s glamour (as perceived abroad) and its constitutional responsibilities at home.
  • In the UK, the royals perform essential state functions; internationally, they're symbols of allure.
  • “Outside the UK ... they are like the Kardashians. ... But back here in Britain, they have a job to do as head of state ... those two things are in conflict.” ([05:33])

• Debate Over Economic Value

  • Amanpour suggests the monarchy boosts tourism and economic value; Dimbleby disagrees:
    • “The Tourist Board gave up saying this 20 years ago because they decided it couldn’t really ... be proven.” ([07:23])
  • Both agree on the monarchy’s importance for Britain's "soft power," especially citing the Queen’s healing effect on Anglo-Irish relations.

• Royal Influence and Political Neutrality

  • Focus on the weekly audiences between monarch and Prime Minister; discussions with David Cameron and Tony Blair reveal how jealously the monarch guards neutrality.
  • “She protected her impartiality and being above politics, um, religiously, so you’d never really get a feeling.” –David Cameron, recounted by Dimbleby ([09:04])
  • Debate over whether the monarch influences policy, especially via Prince/King Charles’ famous “spider letters” to ministers.

• Key Quotes

  • Dimbleby on the Queen:
    “You can discover how it works.” ([04:24])
  • Dimbleby on Charles:
    “He’s always ... has thought things through that nobody else has thought through. ... He has opinions. ... The question is whether as Head of State, it’s his job, unelected, to push those views.” ([11:59] and [12:41])

• Monarchy, Modernization, and the Next Generation

  • Discussion about Prince William’s climate advocacy as part of the monarchy’s evolution.
  • Dimbleby expresses a nuanced view:
    “Of course he can speak his mind. The question is ... there are many issues where the views of the monarch should be disregarded... and that’s the problem.” ([15:06])

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II. The BBC: Crisis and the Future of Public Broadcasting

[15:22–19:12]

Key Discussion Points

• The BBC in Crisis

  • Loss of leadership amid scandals, notably relating to Trump’s multibillion lawsuit over a documentary editing issue.
  • Serial resignations: “Two people resign, but the senior people at the top of the BBC resign. I have no idea ... why that happened. But we have had trouble at the top of the BBC for a time.” ([16:02])

• Public Broadcasting’s Value

  • Amanpour voices concern about the institution’s fragility and centrality to public life.
  • Dimbleby is optimistic:
    “Whatever you think of monarchy, the BBC is the other great institution in Britain ... I believe it will [survive] ... it’s too valuable an institution.” ([16:02])
  • Mentions transition from television to digital news consumption and related threats to the mandatory license fee model.

• Media Neutrality and Political Tensions

  • Perceived political bias—BBC accused of liberal leanings, but staff insist on journalistic neutrality.
  • Historical context: different governments’ (Labour vs. Conservative) attitudes toward the BBC.

• Key Quotes

  • “For any government it’s not worth it to destroy the BBC because it’s too important to Britain, maybe like the monarchy.” –Dimbleby ([17:55])

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III. The Monarchy’s Money: Transparency and Controversy

[17:55–19:12]

• Royal Finances Lack Transparency

  • The King is Britain’s first billionaire monarch, wealth traced to historical sources including profits from the slave trade.
  • Royals are “protected from all kinds of taxes... they pay tax voluntarily and there are certain taxes they don’t pay. ... they don’t pay inheritance tax, which everybody else does.” ([18:17])

• Concerns for a Divided Nation

  • Dimbleby warns non-transparent wealth could deepen social rifts:
    “If their money is doing that, the rest of the country’s money is doing that. ... I think that’s a dangerous point, not a tipping point.” ([18:17])

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IV. Kiran Desai: On Loneliness, Diaspora, and Storytelling

[20:48–37:47]

Introduced Segment: [20:48]

• Two decades after her Booker Prize-winning “The Inheritance of Loss,” Desai releases "The Loneliness of Sonia and Sonny," exploring love, diaspora, and division.

Key Discussion Points

• Writing About Modern Love and Loneliness

  • “I wanted to write a story about how modernity affects us in the very elemental matters of love and loneliness.” ([21:52])
  • Desai describes the challenge of portraying the Indian diaspora’s sense of isolation and community across global borders.

• Loneliness as a Cultural Divide

  • Moving depiction of cultural attitudes toward solitude, as read from the novel ([22:39]).
  • In India, loneliness is foreign; abroad, it’s inescapable.

• Race, Caste, and Immigration

  • Desai notes the U.S. obsession with race, contrasting with India’s preoccupation with caste ([25:04]).
  • “Immigrants come from very complex pasts ... they realize when they come to the United States ... it is also a country with an enormous burden of history.” ([25:53])

• Western Perceptions and Orientalism

  • Pressure to avoid clichés in representing Indian stories for Western audiences.
  • “There’s an enormous anxiety about how India is written about ... worried that a certain kind of India is being sold to a Western audience.” ([26:52])
  • Discusses legitimacy and inevitability of critiques about exoticism and authenticity.

• The Inheritance of Storytelling

  • Close relationship with writer mother Anita Desai—mutual influences, shared landscapes, and legacies ([29:54]).

• India’s Literary Richness and Diversity

  • “I think it’s the extraordinary diversity of India ... with so many languages and people of so many different faiths ... you could write about people very different from yourself with intimacy, knowledge and affection.” ([31:29])
  • Worries about rising nationalism narrowing literary and social pluralism.

• Writing About Politics and Fear

  • “You know, Christiana, what I have noticed is that once fear is injected into a society, that's really the beginning of the end ... people are very, very, very scared and very worried.” ([34:17])
  • Explores limitations placed on Indian writers today by rising censorship and self-censorship.

• Personal Sacrifice and Artistic Life

  • Desai reflects on the “extraordinary privilege” of devoting 20 years to her novel at the expense of broader life experiences.
    • “Writing was just how I was living my life. ... I think of writing as a kind of spiritual discipline.” ([36:46])

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V. Anti-Immigrant Policies & Minnesota’s Somali Community

[38:23–53:29]

Summary

• Trump’s Rhetoric and Crackdown
  • Trump’s derogatory remarks about Somali immigrants, ICE raids, and the rescinding of Temporary Protected Status (TPS) for Somali refugees prompt widespread fear and outrage.
  • Zainab Mohamed, Minnesota State Senator, responds candidly to Hari Srinivasan.

Key Insights

• Community Reaction

  • “I was really deeply disturbed by it and sad for my community. For them to deal with the most powerful person in the world to call them garbage.” –Zainab Mohamed ([40:10])
  • ICE targeting not only undocumented immigrants, but also citizens—often making stops based on appearance.

• On Scale and Facts

  • Only a tiny percentage of Minnesota’s 80,000 Somalis are undocumented or on TPS.
  • The vast majority are citizens, first, second, and third generation.

• Disproportionate Policing and Fear

  • Citizens stopped, detained, and reportedly assaulted; community is instructed to carry documentation at all times.
  • “They are not just targeting undocumented communities ... they are targeting United States citizens. ... As long as you look like me or you look like an immigrant, they're questioning you, they're stopping you.” ([42:50])

• Political Response

  • Local leaders and community organizations take a stand; state and city officials withhold cooperation with ICE.
  • “Our governor has stepped up and has made it very clear that they are here to invade our state, that they are being hostile towards citizens.” ([47:44])

• Personal Risk, Community Resilience

  • Increased threats and violence following Trump’s rhetoric, including the assassination of public officials; Mohamed herself has faced direct threats ([50:45]).
  • Community support and pride:
    “My family is the epitome of the American dream ... every single one of my siblings has graduated college is contributing in their own way...” ([49:43])

• Fraud Stereotypes and Double Standards

  • Community condemns isolated fraud cases, insists they do not represent the whole.
  • Draws parallel to other ethnic groups facing collective blame.

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VI. Notable Quotes & Moments (With Timestamps)

• "All institutions benefit from criticism, including the monarchy ... that’s been my watchword."
  —David Dimbleby ([02:47])

• "Outside the UK ... they are like the Kardashians. ... But back here in Britain, they have a job to do as head of state–those two things are in conflict."
  —David Dimbleby ([05:33])

• "She protected her impartiality and being above politics, um, religiously, so you’d never really get a feeling.”
  —David Dimbleby (on the Queen, quoting Cameron) ([09:04])

• "He’s always ... has thought things through that nobody else has thought through. ... He has opinions. ... The question is whether as Head of State, it’s his job, unelected, to push those views."
  —David Dimbleby (on King Charles) ([11:59], [12:41])

• "If their money is doing that, the rest of the country’s money is doing that ... that’s a dangerous point, not a tipping point."
  —David Dimbleby ([18:17])

• "Immigrants come from very complex pasts ... when they come to the United States ... it is also a country with an enormous burden of history."
  —Kiran Desai ([25:53])

• "Once fear is injected into a society, that’s really the beginning of the end ... people are very, very, very scared and very worried."
  —Kiran Desai ([34:17])

• “I was really deeply disturbed by it and sad for my community. For them to deal with the most powerful person in the world to call them garbage.”
  —Zainab Mohamed ([40:10])

• "They are not just targeting undocumented communities ... they are targeting United States citizens."
  —Zainab Mohamed ([42:50])

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VII. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:11] – Intro to monarchy and BBC segment
• [02:22–15:22] – David Dimbleby on the monarchy
• [15:30–19:12] – Dimbleby on BBC crisis and royal finances
• [20:48–37:47] – Kiran Desai on her new novel, loneliness, diaspora
• [38:23–53:29] – Minnesota’s Somali community, Trump’s rhetoric, Senator Zainab Mohamed

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VIII. Tone and Flow

Throughout, Amanpour maintains her signature probing yet empathetic tone. Dimbleby is frank, cerebral, sometimes wry. Desai is reflective, passionate, nuanced. Mohamed is precise, determined, and heartfelt as she conveys community fears and resilience. The episode is both sobering and insightful, moving fluidly between major public controversies and the very personal realities of its guests.

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This summary presents all key topics, arguments, and memorable exchanges in the episode, enabling listeners and non-listeners alike to fully grasp the depth and significance of the discussions.

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. As a wave of scandals threatens to engulf Britain's best loved institutions, I asked veteran BBC journalist David Dimbleby about the challenges facing the broadcaster and his new documentary, what's the Monarchy For? Then a triumphant return to fiction for Booker Prize winning author Kiran Desai. She tells me about her new novel the Loneliness of Sonia and Sonn and why it took two decades to write. Plus, another startling diatribe from Donald Trump as he plays up his anti immigrant agenda. Hari Srinivasan speaks to democratic state Senator Zainab Mohamed about how the administration's hostile policies are hitting her community.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. It's been a year like no other for two of Britain's best known institutions. The BBC, the country's independent public broadcaster, has found its editorial integrity in question and it's been forced to defend its practices on multiple occasions. It lost two of its top executives last month and faced the threat of a multi billion billion lawsuit from President Trump over a misleading edit in a Panorama documentary. The British monarchy too is under greater scrutiny than perhaps ever before. Revelations of former Prince Andrew's relationship with the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein have badly damaged the royal's reputation. David Dimbleby is a veteran journalist who knows both institutions very well. He spent decades as One of the BBC's best known presenters, covering national events from elections to coronations and as well as as being the face of the flagship political debate show Question Time. Years later, he is still asking the questions Britain's most want answered, like what's the monarchy for? Which is his latest project airing on the BBC now. So, David Dimbleby, welcome to the program.

[David Dimbleby]

Thank you, Christiane.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So you know, you are this institution yourself.

[David Dimbleby]

I'm not an institution.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, you kind of are. People like you, I'm more than you are. But you have a father, you have a brother. All of the Dimbleby family has been very, very important in chronicling BR really, over the decades. What was it that made you want to do this particular one? As someone who's actually been covering the royals for all these years now, you say what's the monarchy for?

[David Dimbleby]

It goes back to something the Queen said 30 years ago, which was that all institutions benefit from criticism, including the monarchy and none of them should avoid scrutiny. And that's been my watchword and what made me interested in doing it now, which is 35 years after she made that speech, her annus horribilis as she called it. When everybody was getting divorced and Windsor Castle caught fire, all sorts of hell let loose. The reason for doing it now was I suddenly realized that the BBC had never actually done it. They never. They do the occasional Andrew interview when he's in disgrace, Diana when she's in trouble. You know, they interviewed her. But they've never looked at the monarchy as an institution. I thought I'd been covering events for the monarchy, which is different, but let's just have a look at how the thing works, because, and this is the important point in Scotland and Wales, remember, we're four countries in the uk, In Scotland and Wales, there's now a narrow majority against monarchy and a rising number of young people in this country against monarchy. So it seemed to me a good moment to say, is it working? Is it how it should be?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so you're right. There's always questions about should this be a republic, should it be a monarchy? Should the monarchy have influence because they're not elected? All of that kind of stuff, you know, because you covered it when the Queen was there, the monarchy was very, very popular. And actually Prince William, Prince of Wales and the Princess of Wales, they're also personally very, very popular in their roles. So what, and when you, when you dug into it, did you find that it was open to scrutiny? Were you able to actually set yourself a mission and find the answers easily?

[David Dimbleby]

I tell you, it's incredibly difficult. I. I wrote to the BBC when I'm saying I'd like to do the monarchy, and these are the three subjects I'd like to do. Their power, their wealth and their image. And to my amazement, the BBC agreed and they backed me all the way through about this. But getting people to speak about the monarchy was like blood out of a stone. I mean, we did have two private secretaries in the end who were brilliant, but they speak in a kind of cryptic way. Nobody comes out and says, well, this is this, this is. If you talk about taxation or money, they're very defensive. If you talk about. I mean, there was a wonderful one about whether, when Diana was killed in Paris, whether they should have come back quicker to London. And the expression the private sector at the time used is maybe we were a bit behind the curve. It's that kind of language you have, you know, but you get, you can get, you can discover how it works.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think she was killed in that tragic car crash, of course. And actually, I think the Royal Family was caught totally off guard, wasn't it? Yes, yes, by the massive national and Actually, international reaction to her death.

[David Dimbleby]

Yes, yes. I mean, I think they have great difficulty. You know, there are families. The other side of this, they are a family. I mean, I was with Andrew, you know, he's Charles brother, so they were looking after the kids, Diana's kids. And there's this conflict all the time between the family and the institution, which is difficult. But there's another, much more important, important conflict, which is that outside the uk, outside Britain, they are like the Kardashians. They're glamorous. I mean, in the United States, it is unbelievable. There's a whole channel devoted to the Royal family and they're obsessed by what they see as the glamour. But back here in Britain, they have a job to do as head of state and those two things are in conflict. There's the glamour on the one hand, with sort of all the gorgeous coaches and the trumpets and the drums and the horses and all that stuff. And that's one side of a projection of Britain, which Donald Trump falls for, for instance. And the other is that they do have the tricky job of being head of a country that is suffering badly economically at the moment, has got a lot of problems, and they have to kind of attune themselves to doing that job, which is a different job from being sent out to Australia or to Canada or to the usa.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. So we're going to get to that in a little bit. But I think you would also, I don't think, quibble with the fact that their glamour, their visibility, their enduring, you know, presence is also a vital part of Britain's soft power. It, you know, sends the British message out in a great, colorful and respected way. Yes, but it also gets a huge amount of tourism here and adds significantly to. To the gdp. Right.

[David Dimbleby]

No, I dispute the tourism one.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right.

[David Dimbleby]

In fact, the Tourist Board gave up saying this 20 years ago because they decided it couldn't really.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm late to that part.

[David Dimbleby]

It couldn't be proven. But in terms of soft power, I mean, there's one. There are instances where it can really work. In Ireland, for instance, she was the first.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The Queen.

[David Dimbleby]

The Queen was the first sovereign to set foot in Ireland in an independent island. It was a British colony before. And that has a kind of healing effect. Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And met with the leaders of the IRA after the Good Friday agreement. And that also had a pretty phenomenal effect as well.

[David Dimbleby]

Yes. And you have to ask whether a president would be as powerful.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Exactly.

[David Dimbleby]

As, for some reason, as an inherited title. I'm not sure I understand why exactly. I Mean, I don't actually understand the mystery or the mystique of monarchy, though I've covered it countless times.

[Christiane Amanpour]

To hear you not understand it is a little troubling for me because they always say, never explain, never complain. So they know that they're a mystery. But I want to get to some actual things from your. You talk about the power, right? You investigated power, money and image. Image, Right. That one hasn't come out yet. That's the third.

[David Dimbleby]

Yeah, that's right.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. So here is the power thing. So they are not elected. They're a constitutional monarchy, but the Prime Minister is elected. But every single week, the Prime Minister, I believe it's on a Tuesday, goes for their weekly audience with the Queen. Plays have been made about this. Films have been made about this. Um, and here is what David Cameron has said because you spoke to him about his meetings with the late Queen. Let's have a listen.

[David Dimbleby]

Well, you never knew what she really. She protected her impartiality and being above politics, um, you know, religiously, so you'd never really get a feeling. But you must have an indication when you're talking to a person in private whether they're looking at you in a steely way. All I would say is she was very careful not to express an opinion. No, that's different. But you can tell whether what you're saying is being happily received or unhappily received. Yes. Did you. I'm not going to answer that. You can always tell by the questions people ask what they think you can think. You think you can, but you don't always mean. It doesn't always mean.

[Hari Srinivasan]

You're right.

[David Dimbleby]

This EU referendum, Prime Minister, are you sure it's a good idea?

Are you asking me whether I think it was a good idea or.

[Zainab Mohamed]

Even.

[David Dimbleby]

An actor of your distinction is not capable of that. So I'm sorry.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay. So that's really interesting. And Tony Blair talks about how he loved his meetings and many of the prime ministers, and apparently the Queen loved the old school, old Labor, Harold Wilson as a prime minister. People didn't imagine that would be possible because they assumed different politics. But what about the referendum? Because actually, it's such a consequential thing that has knocked this country for six in some ways, many analysts would say. And the polls are very different now than they were 10 years ago. It said that, you know, many people want to say that she wasn't for it. What do you think? What did you lean?

[David Dimbleby]

I have no idea.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You have no idea? Okay.

[David Dimbleby]

I have no idea what she Said, I know. The one thing she was in favor of was voting to retain the United Kingdom. Do you remember that? When we had a vote on whether Scotland should be independent? Yes. And she said something like, think very carefully. My point isn't that. My point is whatever goes on at those meetings, and I just hope it's not the King telling the Prime Minister or advising the Prime Minister or raising issues, because we're a democracy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so you.

[David Dimbleby]

It's not his job.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Right. But he does also have an education and a view. I know, I know, but I'm just leading into the next little bit. Right, you're just leading into the bit because the King is adamant, you know that. Well, anyway, he spent a lot of time writing. They call them the spider letters.

[David Dimbleby]

2000 letters. Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

He said 2000. That's a lot. To the government.

[David Dimbleby]

And handwritten.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah.

[David Dimbleby]

And long letters.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Well, then there was a court case trying to release them. Finally they had to release them. You spoke to Dominic Grieve, I think, who was Attorney General at one point around this. What do you make of those letters? Do you think they were demanding? Were they just advisory? Were they. Is it a bad thing that the King, from his non political perch, can have a view on certain important things like climate and other such stuff?

[David Dimbleby]

I think he's, he's kind of. I wouldn't say pigheaded. He has a. He's always. There's an element in him of sort of self righteousness that he sort of has thought things through that nobody else has thought through. And it gets.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But he was ahead of his, his time and ahead of the curve on the climate, on the environment, on homeopathy.

[David Dimbleby]

Which the NHS have ruled out. He still bats on about that. That's a way he fell under the spell of gurus who've since been discredited, like Lawrence Van der Post. He's subject. I mean, he's a very passionate person. I don't know him at all. Let me just say that your brother. My brother's a friend of his.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yes. He wrote the definitive biography, I think.

[David Dimbleby]

Yes. Wrote a biography, made long film. I don't know him. But he has opinions. Okay. Everybody has opinions. The question is whether as Head of State, it's his job, unelected, to push those views.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Did he push them or just share them? I mean, I don't know.

[David Dimbleby]

I think if the Prince of Wales, it comes out in the films, if he's sharing his view, that amounts to pushing.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how much of them were taken on board then by the government?

[David Dimbleby]

Difficult to tell. You can't tell. I mean, the interesting one is.

The thing about housing. He's got a bee in his bonnet about architecture. Hates modern architecture. All right, Half the country hates modern architecture. Wants everything to be classical. And he went on and on about that and he stopped buildings going up in London simply by saying they're a carbuncle that mustn't exist. And that was real influence. When he becomes king, he does something that no monarch has ever done before. He goes on a visit with the Prime Minister to see a housing estate in Cornwall that he's built. He, the King, and likes to try and persuade. No, I mean, what else for them to try and persuade them. It's these little things that. It's just how you see the head of state.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, so now let's go.

[David Dimbleby]

If they're elected head of state, like Donald Trump. Yeah, of course you couldn't. No, that's not different. It's an elected head of state.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I agree with you.

[David Dimbleby]

He can apparently do what he likes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I agree with you. That's different because he's elected.

But I'm going to get back to, if I have time to ask you about the soft power, because actually, Trump has, you know, likes Britain a lot because of the monarchy, but I will.

[David Dimbleby]

Well, now he thinks we're in decay at the time.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, yeah. But not. Not the King. He doesn't think. Not the monarchy.

[David Dimbleby]

The King's not. Well, that's fine. So we're left with the King and we can all go.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, now, look, Prince William, the son of the King, the Prince of Wales. Now, he has, you know, pursued his father's endeavors in the climate. He has the Earthshot Prize. I interviewed him on stage in Brazil this year for the Earthshot Prize. And he advocates for climate action. Here's a bit of his message.

[David Dimbleby]

Climate anxiety is a real thing. I hear about it wherever I go.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now lots of younger generation are saying, what kind of a planet are we going to inherit? And I think that message needs to go wider and louder and the younger generations need to be heard more. Okay, so he has a very high popularity. I want to ask you in 20 seconds to answer to why that shouldn't be allowed. I mean, he's doing what he's doing and it's good for the planet. Because I need to get to the BBC question.

[David Dimbleby]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed. Of course he can speak his mind. The question is. And that's a big issue that everybody's onside about. Almost. But there are many issues where the views of the monarch should be disregarded, and we don't know whether they're disregarded or not. And that's the problem.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, it's a really fascinating documentary series, but because you have been such a stalwart at the BBC.

What. What is going on? This sort of pile on, you know, what do you think the BBC should do? I mean, it doesn't seem to be publicly defending its many people who believe in public broadcasting and can't bear the idea of a world without the World Service or BBC in all its films and drama and wildlife and documentaries and Question Time and all that stuff, that it wouldn't exist as a public service. What do you think? What do you think? Is it under serious threat? Can it revive itself?

[David Dimbleby]

I believe it will put it like that because I believe for all the things you said, it's too valuable an institution. Whatever you think of monarchy, the BBC is the other great institution in Britain and worldwide is really important that it makes terrible mistakes and idiotic ones, including this one over the Trump. But joining two bits of film and then thinking it'll go away as a problem because nobody's raised it as a problem. And of course, things like that don't go away. And then you end up with this kind of terrific furore about it and two people resign, but the senior people at the top of the BBC resign. I have no idea. I'm not privy to what went on there and why that happened. But we have had trouble at the top of the BBC for a time. We've had trouble over the choice of the chair. We've had trouble in our relationships with government. The Labour government always used to be thought to be rather more favorable to the BBC than a Tory one because it's always thought to be very slightly liberal. The BBC, rather like cnn, is thought to be a bit on the liberal side. We called ourselves neutral and we call ourselves neutral. Okay, Journalistic neutral. Okay, let's put it like that. But the one problem with the BBC is that people are abandoning television in favor of all the other ways of getting information. But they're still compelled to pay 179, whatever it is, pounds a year to have a license fee to watch television. And that's the stumbling block. And for me, if they can get that sorted, then the BBC will be okay. No government's going to be so stupid. I mean, Margaret Thatcher wanted to sort of take the BBC to task, and she was always told people would come out of the woodwork to defend it. If you don't do it, Margaret, it's not worth it. And my view is that for any government it's not worth it to destroy the BBC because it's too important to Britain, maybe like the monarchy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You almost ended the interview right there. You said, what's the monarchy for? Now you're telling me it's too important to Britain. David Dimbleby, it's a really great watch and I wanted to ask you one other last question and that's about the money. And literally we have one minute. So you looked also into the finances and they're pretty non transparent.

[David Dimbleby]

Absolutely non transparent. And the king is the first billionaire king we've ever had. Ask why and you take do a lot of work to discover why. And it goes way back to profits made in the slave trade, for God's sake. And it goes on and on and on. And they're protected from all kinds of taxes and they pay tax voluntarily and there are certain taxes they don't pay. So they get richer and richer and richer and they don't pay inheritance tax, which everybody else does. You know, when one person dies and they pass them on, so their money just does this. And again that's I think is a serious issue in a country that if their money is doing that, the rest of the country's money is doing that. And I think that's a dangerous point, not a tipping point. We're not going to have a republic here. We're four countries. You try having a president who suits all four countries. You know, he could wish for it, but I didn't think it will happen for a long time.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, well it's an amazing watch and really good investigation and David Dimbleby, thank you very much. Thank you Christine, always great to see you. Nice to see you and stay with us because we'll be back after this break.

[David Dimbleby]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north.

[Kiran Desai]

And this year he wants you to.

[David Dimbleby]

Know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Zainab Mohamed]

Of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only.

[Kiran Desai]

Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com I'm CNN Tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, I'm wearing this little gadget around my neck like a necklace. It's called Friend. It's a wearable AI device that listens to everything you say and your surroundings. You can also talk directly to it and it responds via messages in the Friend app. Here in New York, Friend made a big splash recently when it shelled out $1 million on a massive ad campaign Subway. I wanted to talk to Friend's creator and CEO Avi Schiffman to find out why he created Friend, how he feels about the backlash, and why he thinks we should embrace a new kind of relationship with AI. Listen to CNN's Terms of Service wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now to one of the most anticipated books of the year. Two decades in the making. The Loneliness of Sonia and Sonny and is Kiran Desai's long awaited new novel. It's finally published 20 years after her previous book, the Inheritance of Loss, which won her the Booker Prize. The new novel is a thoughtful look at class, race and what it means to love. Desai says that at times it felt so big she wasn't sure she could even finish it. It's garnered huge critical acclaim in the brief time it's been out and it's been shortlisted for this year's Booker Prize. When we spoke, I asked Desai what it felt like to finally see the story in print.

Kiran Desai, welcome to our program.

[Kiran Desai]

Thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It has been 20 years the world has waited for your next novel and now it's upon us. It's huge. It's epic. Not just between the, you know, the covers, but in the generations that it spans. So you've said you wanted to write an Indian love story in the modern age. So tell us.

[Kiran Desai]

So I wanted to write a story about how modernity affects us in the very elemental matters of love and loneliness. And I had the idea of writing a sort of modern day globalized love story but with an old fashioned immersive beauty. That was what I wanted to do.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so it's about Sunny and Sonia and the struggle, as you say, with individuality of the west compared to the, you know, the constant company that you feel in the global South. And we do see this playing out in many passages, including the one we have asked you to read because this is between Sonia's dad and her grandfather. Can you read that passage for us?

[Kiran Desai]

Yes. We are worried about Sonia. Manavan said. Sonia attended college in Vermont. She's fallen into a depression. She weeps on the telephone. And then when we call her back a day later, the same. But why? Asked Dadaji. She's been there three years already. Why is she suddenly crying? She says she's lonely. The last time Sonia had traveled home was two years ago. Lonely, lonely. In Allahabad, they had no patience with loneliness. They might have felt the loneliness of being misunderstood. They might know the sucked dead feeling of Allah. Bad afternoons, a tide drawn out, perhaps never to return, which is a kind of loneliness. But they had never slept in a house alone, never eaten a meal alone, never lived in a place where they were unknown.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, it just says it all. So, and loneliness obviously is in the title. Why did you decide to focus on that particular aspect? And of course you're talking about the diaspora. You're also a member of the diaspora. You're not in your community in India.

[Kiran Desai]

Well, I was. You know, once I thought of writing this story about love and loneliness and I was thinking in an Indian love story, in the past, in the time of my grandparents and perhaps also my parents, it would have been centered in one community, one religion, possibly also one place, you know, one race, one religion, one community. But setting it out into the big world, you know, it could wander in so many different directions, it could take so many different forms, and it seems a matter of chance who one might meet, when and where. But once I did this, I realized that as the Sonia and Sunny go through many countries, in Italy, in Mexico, in the United States, in India, and I realized that I could actually expand the idea of loneliness and talk about it, talk about the fissures of our modern world and all the divides between nations, the rage between nations, the distrust between races, between genders, class divides that seem to grow ever bigger, all as a kind of loneliness.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, I'm gonna pick up on one of those things you just said, and that's race. Because Sonny, the male title here particularly, he questions his place as an immigrant in the United States. In your novel. He feels that it's a place obsessed with race and skin color. And I want to read from, from your book. And when was it that Sonny had learned the United States was about only one thing. In the morning, when he turned on public radio, it began race, race, race. When he unfolded the newspaper, race, race, race. The economy, the environment, the journalism, the Starbucks restroom, the seat on the plane, the conversation came down in a hammer blow. Race. Talk about the race that you're writing about that Sunny's experiencing writing this book. You've got it happening on the ground in the United States. With all the crackdown on immigrant populations.

[Kiran Desai]

Absolutely. It's so fascinating. And I think, you know, immigrants come from very complex pasts, often fleeing difficult situations. And then they realize when they come to the United States, thinking of it as a fresh new country, that it is also a country with an enormous burden of history. And this is something that I realized when I arrived in the United States. And it was exactly as Sunny describes it, race, race, race. Which is, of course, not something you think about in India. In India, you think about caste.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So I want to ask you about something else, because we hear this more and more as a criticism. At the beginning of the novel, Sonia shows her, at that time, artist boyfriend, a novel that she's working on, and he tells her that it's too cliched, too Orientalist. Stop writing about arranged marriages. Sonia goes on to change what she's, you know, the sort of. Some of the descriptions she. She has for Western audiences. Is that a big pressure, do you think? Is that even valid?

[Kiran Desai]

Oh, it's absolutely valid. I think there's an enormous anxiety about how India is written about, perhaps how non Western countries are written about in the Western world, which is the big publishing world. And I think that this is an old anxiety, and it tends to rise. If your country has been historically underrepresented on the world stage, and if that representation is seen as crucial, and if the mistakes of the past have been too costly to repeat, then people are very, you know, aware of how India is being portrayed overseas, extremely worried that a certain kind of India is being sold to a Western audience and that a more authentic, real India is not being. So I think as a writer from this part of the world, you have to be conscious of it. You are always conscious of it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Except that one of the arguments is that you, you know, not you. But generally, you know, some stories focus on arranged marriages. That's not, you know, that's not unusual. It's actually really common in India. Right. So it's sort of difficult struggle. Yeah.

[Kiran Desai]

Most marriages are arranged. And so the question becomes exotic to whom? You know, and yet there is that worry that white people are being beguiled by, you know, exotic seasons such as the monsoon and by peacocks, you know, obliterating clouds of spices and a kind of cheap, bizarre version, sort of decorative outside, hollow inside, that is just, you know, demeaning the soul of the country. And that is what is being sold in a kind of Oriental bazaar. Which is actually a valid argument, by the way. I mean, all of these arguments. The thing is, are Valid. So it was important for me to put them all in the book. There's also, you know, a question of who has the power to tell these stories overseas and a real anxiety like that. Writers like myself, you know, who are very Westernized and are speaking English and language that is sometimes accused of, you know, of not being able to capture India at all. The form of a novel, which is a Western form, which came to India along with the British. So all of these questions about storytelling are, of course, in my mind.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That is so interesting. I want to go back a little bit also to the present. But your mother, Anita Desai, also is an exceptional writer. She has been nominated for the Booker three times. You wanted the booker for your previous novel in 2006. She's the only person, I understand, who you show your early work to describe that relationship and what she makes of the fact that you won the prize that you. That she hasn't yet.

[Kiran Desai]

Well, it's a bit ridiculous, you know, we've both been nominated now, I think, five times, mother and daughter.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Amazing.

[Kiran Desai]

You know, she has a very fascinating background with a German mother and a father who came from what is now Bangladesh.

So her. She had an extraordinary bookshelf. She grew up with an extraordinary bookshelf from both a European and an Indian. Combination of those two. Of those two things, those two.

Ideas of writing and storytelling. And I inherited that bookshelf. And it has been so important to me in my writing life.

So she does read my work, but she reads it. I think she knows the landscapes I'm writing from more than anyone, so she can intuit what I'm trying to say. Sometimes we write from the same landscape. The same veranda is in my novel. And in her novel.

We often go on writing holidays together.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's a nice connection. She also let it not be, you know, forgotten. Helped to pave the way for a generation of great Indian writers like yourself, but also Salman Rush, Arundhati Roy, Vikram Seth. And in one of. In your book, one of Sunny's colleagues at the AP says to him, in India, stories grow on trees. What is it about India that makes it such a fascinating place to tell these stories about?

[Kiran Desai]

You know what I think it is? I think it's the extraordinary diversity of India and the fact that you. This is something that I'm really worried is changing, you know, India as a country with so many languages and people of so many different faiths, and you have all of these different philosophies to draw on as a writer. It's such an exuberant writing territory. People who may be Buddhist, Jain, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, and this. You could argue that that's why the United States is also a very vibrant literary culture. But you could write about people very different from yourself with intimacy, knowledge and affection. And that is something that is, I think, I worry that is changing in India with the rise of nationalism. And so I always think that what we are fighting for is not only a secular democracy, not only human rights, but also a literary landscape which has been so precious to me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right, so veering into the politics, you talk about the rise of nationalism, Hindu nationalism. In the book, one of the characters is fired for having moral statues in his office. And there are a series of dinner parties discussing the topic and the, you know, the frictions emerging between friends. So that also that politics populates this novel.

[Kiran Desai]

It does. And I don't think you can leave that out, you know, of. I don't know how writers write leaving the politics out of a novel. Although I think it absolutely has to be, you know, politics for the sake of art, not the other way around. It's very conscious of that, how these events, even for characters who are not directly experiencing the violence, how it changes absolutely everything about their lives.

And is very curious about.

Following. I wanted to follow those undercurrents of history. You know, the feeling of the dread of knowing that there is a darker undercurrent of history that you never know when it's going to come bursting out and who the violence will ensnare. And that is something I was very conscious of growing up in India. You know, I lived as a child, when I was. The Hindu Sikh riots happened. And that's something that is reverberating today.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Can I just ask you, do you feel that authors living in India today can write freely, you know, without fear of crackdowns or censorship?

[Kiran Desai]

You know, Christiana, what I have noticed is that once fear is injected into a society, that's really the beginning of the end. And I have seen that fear just to an extraordinary degree in India. And I would say that no, people are very, very, very scared and very worried.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And yet in New York City, we have, you know, you have a member of the Indian diaspora himself, Zoran Mamdani, who has been elected mayor against all expectations and quite a lot of pressure from much more establishment candidates to make sure he didn't get elected. But he is, um. And there's been a huge amount of joy, not just amongst the Indian diaspora, but amongst many, many people in New York and around the world. So it Happened.

[Kiran Desai]

That's my neighbor.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Well, there you go.

[Kiran Desai]

Okay, well, because I live in Jackson. I live in Jackson Heights in Queens, and he's in Astoria.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, well, he's your mayor then. So it happened just weeks after your book was published. How did it make you feel?

[Kiran Desai]

You know, I was talking about fear in the Indian context, but that's, of course, also happening in the United States now. And when I walk out into my neighborhood of Jackson Heights, I sense that fear, the same fear. And it has changed. The landscape has changed drastically in the last six months or so. And what was a very vibrant immigrant scene is now suddenly some of the streets are quite silent. So that is something I'm very conscious of. And I am thrilled about Zohra and Mamdani winning the election.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yep.

[Kiran Desai]

Very happy about it. Let's see. It's definitely the. When I returned this last time for a trip, I think the air was just. It felt. The air smelled sweeter.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, it's really interesting to hear you say that. But I want to ask you finally, you know, you famously devoted, and you've spoken about it, devoted the last 20 years to your book at the expense of quite a lot of other things you could have been doing. You haven't got married. You don't have children. You pretty, you know, live a very solitary and writerly life. I'm sure you have a massive social circle and lots of friends and community. But tell me a what that's like to devote 20 years to this project. And now that it's done, how do you feel?

[Kiran Desai]

I didn't notice the years passing.

And I was, you know, I think I was creating material. I wasn't thinking so much, even in terms of a book. Writing was just how I was living my life. And I think of writing as a kind of spiritual discipline. I wake up in the morning, I go straight to my desk. Everything I do through the day is so that I can write and that I will be able to put all my energy into my work. And I have to say it feels like an extraordinary privilege to have been able to work like that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And how do you feel now that that, that baby, that project, that that work is out in the open and not really yours to work on anymore?

[Kiran Desai]

Well, life feels very thin on the other side of this novel, I have to say. And I just can. I feel my brain is just squirreling away, trying to find a new project to work on.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, I was going to ask you. There won't be another 20 year gap. You're going to write another novel.

[Kiran Desai]

Well, you know, 20 years is I realize that I have to learn how to write shorter novels because if I wait another 20 years, I would be 74.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's not bad. You know, people still write 74. Anyway, look, I am going to leave those readers who haven't read the book to find out what happens to Sonny, Sonny and Sonia. But it's got such great critical acclaim and we're really happy to have had you on. Thank you so much.

[Kiran Desai]

Kiran Desai, thank you so much.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Such a lovely conversation. We'll be right back after this short break.

Now, Minnesota's Somali community is the latest focus of Donald Trump's wrath and war on immigrants. At a rally last night, the president let loose openly using an epithet he had previously denied using in 2018.

[David Dimbleby]

Why is it we only take people from countries, right? Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden, Just a few. Let us have a few from Denmark. Do you mind sending us a few people? Send us some nice people. Do you mind? But we always take people from Somalia, places that are a disaster, right? Filthy, dirty, disgusting, ridden with crime. The only thing they're good at is going after ships.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So this has been described by some as a xenophobic tirade. And it comes amid a crackdown by ICE agents in Minnesota this week, which is home to the largest Somali community in the United States. Democratic State Senator Zainab Mohammad herself immigrated to the US As a child, and she's joining Hari Srinivasan.

Christiana, thanks.

[Hari Srinivasan]

State Senator Zainabu Hamed, thanks so much for joining us. You are a state senator. You're representing all Minnesotans, but you're also representing from a state that has about 80,000 Somalis. And recently President Trump during a news conference said, quote, I don't want them in our country. We could go one way or the other, and we're going to go the wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into our country. As not just a state senator and representative, but as a Somali immigrant. What was your reaction to this when you heard this?

[Zainab Mohamed]

I was.

Sad, incredibly sad. But I wasn't shocked. Coming from what's been happening the last 11 years and seeing the president target our community over the course of his administration, I was shocked. I was really deeply disturbed by it and sad for my community. For them to deal with the most powerful person in the world to call them garbage.

[Hari Srinivasan]

There's also at the same time been a program conducted by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement called Metro Surge. The White House borders are Tom Holman recently, he said we Also know that there's a large illegal Somali community here and that there's a large illegal alien community there. We're going to arrest every illegal alien that we find there. Can you just help us put in perspective what the percentage numbers of undocumented Somalis are in Minnesota?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Yeah, it's not many. So majority of Somalis in Minnesota have, are United States citizens or they're naturalized citizens. They're born here. They're either naturalized citizens, often first, second or even third generation Americans. We don't have many folks who are undocumented. We have about 700 people across the country who are on temporary status, temporary protected status, tps, which is they are legal residents, but.

We don't have many numbers in terms of undocumented communities. Folks in Minnesota when it comes.

[Hari Srinivasan]

So even in the entire population of Somalia in the country, if there are only about 700, and let's say there's about 400 of those TPS recipients in Minnesota. The President said recently on his social media platform that he was terminating, effective immediately, the temporary protection status of TPS program for Somalis in Minnesota. I mean, do you, do you think that the administration is going to be successful in this?

[Zainab Mohamed]

I think they will try, but what's clear is they are not going to be successful because what they think is there are large numbers of Somalis who are undocumented or majority of our community is on tps, which is not the case. And that's what they're seeing here on the ground is that these folks are citizens, they're born here, they're naturalized.

Let's say all of them live in Minnesota. 700 out of 80 is not that many people. And these are folks who are fleeing war and famine, some of the worst conditions, who come to America for safety. And we've granted them that. And he's taken that away. And I think it speaks to his leadership and the fact that it's been detrimental to the American citizens.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Can you tell us about the scale of the operation that you and members of your community have witnessed here?

[Zainab Mohamed]

ICE agents came here in the hundreds last Monday. It's been exactly a week. What we know is that so far they've only detained 19 people. Out of that, only five are Somalis. But they are everywhere in our communities. And they're not just targeting undocumented communities. That's what's really important to note here is that they are targeting United States citizens. They have detained people who were born here. And so what they're doing is they're going up to people as long as you look like me or you look like an immigrant, they're questioning you, they're stopping you. And so we're teaching people to carry their passport IDs. And I think that's something important to know because what they wanted was to see large numbers of undocumented Somalis in Minnesota. Turns out there isn't. And so now they're just harassing and being aggressive towards the community there.

[Hari Srinivasan]

There was a local news report, I think it's on Fox 9, of a Somali woman who is a US citizen who was arrested by ICE agents while running an errand. Can you tell us a little bit more about her case?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Yeah. So what we know is she was running errands. She's actually born in Edina, Minnesota, raised here, has been here her entire life. She was running errands on a regular day. Two cars with ICE agents pulled up, zip tied her. They detained her for 24 hours. And in that process, she told story to the news that she was sexually assaulted. Her family speaking up. And so what they're doing is not operating under the law. They are not here to enforce immigration laws. They're here to be disrespectful to the community, to antagonize them and to create fear. And they're certainly doing that.

[Hari Srinivasan]

We should note that in this case, DHS told Fox 9 in Minneapolis that it could not comment on the incident without further information. So when you see stories like this on the news or from members of your community, what does that do to the overall kind of, I guess, atmosphere of how the community feels?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Yeah, I mean, just across the state, it doesn't feel normal because in a normal government, local mayors and law enforcement would know what ICE is doing, what they're, why they're there, who they're targeting, for what reason. They're arresting people. That is not happening. They are coming here in a hostile, invading to try to invade the state of Minnesota. And I think it is really scary what it is creating for us as Minnesotans. It is making it clear that these folks are not here to enforce our immigration laws, that these folks are here to scare us, to create us versus them mentality. And so people are uniting and they are protecting their neighbors who are citizens who just happen to be immigrants or from immigration background.

[Hari Srinivasan]

What is your advice when Somali members of your community call you?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Well, I tell them make sure you carry your passport ID and your passport card because they are not targeting just people, individuals who are undocumented. They are targeting all of us. I carry my passport ID I tell my mother to do so. And the calls I get that I'm most afraid for are the mothers who don't speak English well or don't speak it at all, who still have to go to work. Those are the people that worry me the most in terms of interacting with the folks who are trying to invade our state.

[Hari Srinivasan]

This right now has been focused in on the Twin Cities, but Somalis have similarly. Just like they left from the downtown to the suburbs, they've also left to exurban and rural areas to work on farms and be parts of small towns. Are you hearing anything from there?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Thank you for pointing that out. We're not just in the Twin Cities, we're not just in the suburbs. We're also in small towns. People in greater Minnesota, whether in Wilmer, Morehead or central Minnesota, are also vigilant. They are well aware of what's happening in the Twin Cities. Some people in central Minnesota and St. Cloud, Minnesota, which is a small town in central Minnesota, have seen ICE agents show up. And so it's not just a target in the Twin Cities or in the metro, they are targeting people across, across the state of Minnesota. But our people have been here for, at this point, first, second or third generations, they know their neighbors. They are not just, they are not just people who are entrepreneurs. They are farmers and doctors and lawyers. And so their neighbors know that. And, and they're protecting them and they're stepping up. And I think for Minnesotans, it is showing us what it means to be a good neighbor. And so I think what the president has done is, and he's created this community to be so much better than what we even thought it would be.

[Hari Srinivasan]

So what has been the response of leadership throughout the state? I know in the city, the mayor, Jacob Frey had signed a recent executive order that barred ICE from using any city owned spaces like parking lots for staging areas. What about the rest of the city and the state?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Well, people are stepping up. Our governor has stepped up and has made it very clear that they are here to invade our state, that they are being hostile towards citizens. Most of our jurisdictions are not complying because they are not even telling them, they're not even interested in complying with them. And I mentioned this earlier, in a normal government, when ICE agents are in town, they talk to local law enforcement and the mayors and they let them know who they're arresting and why. And that isn't happening. They're showing up in the middle of Monday with just a press announcement without any heads up to the local government. And so it's been for our leaders, they are stepping up. They are also helping people understand what their rights are. Number of organizations across the state are also doing trainings for people so that they know what to do if ICE agents do interact with them.

[Hari Srinivasan]

There was a long running civil war in Somalia that led to the emigration and fleeing of so many people from that country to all over the world, including the United States. What would Somalis be returning to if they were deported or if they were. If they had this temporary protection status of the 700 or so in the country revoked?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Yeah, I mean, the country is still going through an unrest and civil war. There is famine also happening. We know that people are still living in refugee camps. And so for people who live here, like myself, who've been here since I was 8 years old, to go back to a home I haven't known since I was a child just seems antithetical to the beliefs of Americans. These people are Americans. They've been here for a number of generations. They're not going anywhere. And so that's sort of what we've been telling people because we're not going to send Americans to countries that they've never been to.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Your family story is somewhat emblematic of Somali. So many different Somalis who have immigrated here. Why did they come and what's your family's contribution been like over the generations?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Yeah, my family.

Is the epitome of the American dream and why so many people in my community immigrate here. We came here when I was 8 years old. My family was obviously wanting to lead the war. And Americans have taken us in, Minnesotans have taken us in. And in return, every single one of my siblings has graduated college is contributing in their own way. We've got nurses and people who work in different industries. You have people like me who ran for office when I was 24 years old, became the youngest member and one of the first three black women. Because it's important to me, not just as a Somali woman, but just simply as an American that I give back to the people who've had my back, who've given me home. And this is my home.

[Hari Srinivasan]

You know, I wonder, in some of the remarks that the President has made, he's also targeted Ilhan Omar, who you know very well is his representative in Congress, and she's been the target of his attacks. Are you seeing an increase in any sorts of threats or political violence against you?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Absolutely. Anytime the president spews what he did, as he did last week, and calls the entire community garbage and paints a brush over us. Attacks against our leaders like myself increase. We've been getting death threats. People are afraid to go to their stores or to go or even if they live in parts where there aren't a lot of people who look like us, they're being more vigilant. They don't know what it incites. We also lived through June 14 in Minnesota, where my leader, Speaker Hortman, Minnesota House, Minnesota leader of the House, Melissa Horman, her husband were assassinated, and my colleague John Hoffman and his wife had an attempted assassination on them. And I was on that list. And so I'm afraid for my community, I'm afraid for myself. But we have no choice but to step up and speak up against the rhetoric and say we deserve to live in a country that is safe, where our leaders don't incite violence against us, because that's exactly what's happening. And I would have hoped that June 14 was a lesson to our leaders, both sides of the aisle, but it seems not to be.

[Hari Srinivasan]

One of the things that the president has keyed in on, and several conservatives in the state as well have keyed in on, is a series of fraud cases that have been discovered and investigated and prosecuted over the last few years where there have been different state programs that have been taken advantage of. And a number of Somalis have been indicted and charged with these crimes. And I guess, you know, your, your reaction to the president's comments on the case. I mean, he says Somalians ripped off that state, state Minnesota, for billions of dollars every year. Billions of dollars. And they contribute nothing.

[Zainab Mohamed]

Well, first of all, the contributions of the community speak for themselves, right? In terms of the fraud. Fraud hurts everyone. Fraud hurts Somali taxpayers and Somali people who are supposed to be getting these, receiving these services.

What is important is we don't do this to other communities. This year there was a group of people who were linked to a Russian gang who stole $10 billion, who schemed over $10 billion in fraud. We don't say.

Is that indicative of the entire Russian community, because it's not. And these are individuals who are not representative of our entire community. They are 78 people. They are criminal. And that is how we should be speaking of them. We should not be saying that this is an indicative of the entire community. That is where the rhetoric starts and where it creates political violence for people who look like myself.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Minnesota State Senator Zainab Mohamed, thanks so much for your time.

[Zainab Mohamed]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Troubling times. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, remember, you can always catch us online and on our website and all over social media. Thanks for watching and goodbye. From London.

[David Dimbleby]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. The fastest growing neurodegenerative disease in the.

[Zainab Mohamed]

World is Parkinson's disease.

[Hari Srinivasan]

We already have 11.8 million people with Parkinson's.

[David Dimbleby]

We're now growing as a neurodegenerative disease.

[Hari Srinivasan]

Faster than Alzheimer's disease.

[David Dimbleby]

That should grab Everybody's attention.

That's Dr. Michael Okun. We're gonna take a deep dive into Parkinson's disease. What is it exactly? What are its root causes? Where does treatment stand? And are there ways to reduce, reduce your risk?

[Zainab Mohamed]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now.

[David Dimbleby]

Wherever you get your podcasts.