Trump's 'Wrecking-Ball Politics'

Summary

Amanpour – "Trump's 'Wrecking-Ball Politics'" (Feb 12, 2026)

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN International)
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Main Guests: Robert Kagan (foreign policy expert), Delroy Lindo (actor), Christopher Jennings (author)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the escalating global insecurity stemming from the United States’ recent "wrecking-ball politics" under Donald Trump. Christiane Amanpour interviews prominent conservative scholar Robert Kagan on the unraveling of the transatlantic alliance and the fragility of democracy in the US. The episode also features interviews with Delroy Lindo about the Oscar-contending film "Sinners" and Christopher Jennings on how the Ruby Ridge siege previewed today's apocalyptic, conspiracy-driven atmosphere in America.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. The Shattering of World Order: Trump’s Impact on Global Alliances

[01:01-08:19] — Robert Kagan on the US, Europe, and NATO’s Future

• Kagan’s Opening Assessment:
  Kagan supports the Munich Security Conference's alarmist report, calling it "certainly correct" and "a wake up call." America, under Trump, is now seen as "a hostile and potentially predatory nation," placing it alongside Russia as a threat to Europe (03:54-04:54).

  “Europe is now in the predicament of facing an aggressor and a predatory empire to its east, but also now a potentially predatory, but certainly hostile empire to its west.”
  — Robert Kagan [04:16]

• European Response:
  Kagan urges Europe to rapidly strengthen itself militarily and economically, warning of grave dangers if it fails due to both Russian and American threat vectors.

• Consequences for the US:
  The US has "taken for granted" the strategic and economic advantages conferred by alliances. If Trump’s antagonism breaks these partnerships, America will lose global influence, critical military bases, market access, and will face "a might makes right… world."

  "If the United States is now going to turn against those powers as it is, and treat them as hostile players and competitors, ... then those allies are going to cease to be our allies. ... The prospect of war climbs considerably if our alliance structure is being destroyed."
  — Robert Kagan [07:04]

• Discussion of Bases & Global Access:
  Kagan details how US military bases, secured through prior alliances, are vital for global projection of power. Without trusted allies, the US would need to "fight for everything that we currently enjoy for free" (09:14-10:19).

• Greenland as a Flashpoint:
  On Trump’s obsession with acquiring Greenland and European pushback, Kagan notes this demonstrates Europe’s capacity for resistance, "but the Greenland issue is not over."

  "Trump has been fixated on Greenland since his first term."
  — Robert Kagan [05:35]

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2. The State of American Democracy

[14:45-17:53] — Kagan on Domestic Authoritarian Trends

• Dire Democracy Warning:
  Kagan asserts "we are one big step into dictatorship already," expressing skepticism about US institutions' ability to resist Trump’s autocratic actions (15:10).

  “It seems the only people who are willing to stand up to Donald Trump are average American citizens in Minneapolis and elsewhere. And God, God bless them for that.”
  — Robert Kagan [15:18]

• Erosion of Checks and Balances:
  Kagan sees the Republican Party as "the party of dictatorship," raising the alarm about possible future election interference and the erosion of “free and fair elections.”

• Minneapolis ICE Actions & Congressional Resistance:
  Amanpour notes recent pushback against Trump’s policies (ICE’s diminished presence, some Republicans opposing tariffs), but Kagan dismisses these as minor, warning that overall, authoritarian plans remain in play.

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3. Europe’s Potential as a Superpower

[12:45-14:45] — Can Europe Fill the Gap?

• Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s Call:
  Rasmussen urges Europe to adopt a ‘superpower’ mentality, leveraging economic and demographic heft.

• Kagan’s Take:
  Europe has the resources and capability to rearm and increase global influence—if compelled by necessity.

  "Necessity is the mother of making sacrifices when you need to. And this is a matter of necessity for Europe."
  — Robert Kagan [14:38]

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4. The World through Art: “Sinners” — Delroy Lindo Interview

[19:29-35:59] — Delroy Lindo on Sinners, Music, and Identity

• On the Film’s Power:
  Lindo praises "Sinners" for its originality and contemporary resonance. He describes his rigorous preparation to portray Delta Slim, immersing himself in blues history and culture.

  "It was not a linear process. I was gathering all of this data and then incorporating it into my own process..."
  — Delroy Lindo [21:44]

• Music as a Character:
  The film treats music as a living, sacred force—a conduit of history and emotion.

• Notable Quote:

  "Blues weren't forced on us like that religion. We brought this with us, Mahone. It's magic, what we do. It's sacred."
  — Delroy Lindo as Delta Slim [23:36]

• On Representation and Impact:
  Lindo reflects on Sinners’ historic Academy Awards recognition, suggesting it’s "a work for the ages" likely to be studied and remembered for its cultural moment rather than predicting broad cultural changes.

  "It will be just as impactful in five, 10 years from now because I think the work has that kind of magnitude."
  — Delroy Lindo [35:34]

• Personal Journey & Memoir:
  Lindo discusses his Windrush-generation heritage and ongoing self-discovery, emphasizing the long-term impact of migration and its resonance in his current book project.

• On Late Recognition:
  Lindo, at 73 and after a five-decade career, expresses gratitude for his first Oscar nomination, noting the meaningful support from fans.

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5. Ruby Ridge and the American Apocalypse

[37:08-52:31] — Christopher Jennings on Ruby Ridge and Conspiracy Culture

• Legacy of Ruby Ridge:
  Jennings argues that the 1992 Ruby Ridge siege, rooted in apocalyptic and racist ideology, was a precursor to today’s conspiracy-driven politics.

• End Times Prophecy and Radicalization:
  He tracks how American fundamentalist Christianity shifted toward apocalypticism, fueling "creeping globalism" fears and a “battle between light and dark” now evident in movements like QAnon.

  "If you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States."
  — Christopher Jennings [41:34]

• White Supremacy and Theology:
  Jennings details how the Weavers and their network mixed religious prophecy with hardcore white supremacism, underlining their inextricability.

  "The Weavers were true believing hardcore white supremacists... The theology and the white power stuff were inextricable for them."
  — Christopher Jennings [43:24]

• From Fringe to Mainstream:
  Ruby Ridge, and the myths around it, weren’t an end but "the dawn of our current age," as far-right ideas metastasized into mainstream US politics (51:13-52:28).

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6. Final Story—Athletic Protest and Remembrance

[52:34-54:38] — Amanpour Closing Story

• Amanpour reports on the banning of Ukrainian skeleton racer Vladislav Hraskovich for wearing a helmet honoring slain compatriots, touching on the power and complexity of symbolism in times of war.

  "Having courage is worth more than any medal."
  — President Volodymyr Zelenskyy (social media, quoted by Amanpour) [53:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Europe is now in the predicament of facing an aggressor and a predatory empire to its east, but also now a potentially predatory, but certainly hostile empire to its west."
  — Robert Kagan [04:16]

• "We are one big step into dictatorship already."
  — Robert Kagan [15:10]

• "Blues weren't forced on us like that religion. We brought this with us, Mahone. It's magic, what we do. It's sacred."
  — Delroy Lindo as Delta Slim [23:36] (film excerpt)

• "Necessity is the mother of making sacrifices when you need to. And this is a matter of necessity for Europe."
  — Robert Kagan [14:38]

• "If you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States."
  — Christopher Jennings [41:34]

• "The Weavers were true believing hardcore white supremacists... The theology and the white power stuff were inextricable for them."
  — Christopher Jennings [43:24]

• "Having courage is worth more than any medal."
  — President Zelenskyy (quoted by Amanpour) [53:52]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:01] Introduction to Trump’s security challenge, Munich Conference context
• [03:05] Kagan on the Munich report and transatlantic danger
• [04:54] Discussion of the US as a predatory power
• [07:04] Kagan on the loss of American power without alliances
• [14:45] State of American democracy, rise of authoritarianism
• [19:29] Delroy Lindo on "Sinners" and portraying history
• [23:36] Delta Slim film excerpt: the spiritual depth of blues music
• [27:27] Lindo on the Windrush generation and writing his memoir
• [32:06] Lindo on opportunity in America vs. Britain and late-in-life recognition
• [37:08] Walter Isaacson & Christopher Jennings on Ruby Ridge and right-wing militias
• [41:34] Jennings on end-times prophecy echoing into current conspiracies
• [43:24] The inextricable link between white power ideology and theology at Ruby Ridge
• [51:13] Ruby Ridge as the start of a right-wing conspiratorial age
• [53:52] Amanpour on the Ukrainian athlete’s protest, including Zelenskyy quote

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Overall Tone & Atmosphere

• Urgency and Gravity: Conversation with Kagan is marked by deep concern over the erosion of global security and democracy.
• Resilience and Identity: Delroy Lindo’s interview offers warmth, humor, and depth in discussing both personal history and the power of art.
• Analytical Reflection: Jennings provides historical context with a nuanced, sometimes somber examination of American extremism.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode presents a multifaceted look at global destabilization in an era dominated by US political upheaval and rising authoritarianism. Leading thinker Robert Kagan warns of the decaying world order and democratic institutions as America’s alliances fray under Trump. In parallel, Delroy Lindo explores generational trauma, music, and identity in the groundbreaking film "Sinners." Christopher Jennings’ analysis of the Ruby Ridge standoff reveals the deep roots of today’s conspiratorial, apocalyptic far-right movements. The episode culminates with a meditation on individual resistance and remembrance amid war, capturing the gravity and complexity of our moment.

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

NATO has treated the United States of America very unfairly.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Trump's message to Europe time and time again. So as world leaders head to the Munich security conference, can the transatlantic alliance be saved? I asked prominent foreign policy expert Robert Kagan. He says the world is entering its most dangerous period since World War II. Then it can conjure spirits from the past and the future. Sinners, the genre busting film that took the world by storm. One of its stars, Delroy Lindo, joins me on this Oscar bound movie and his remarkable career.

[Christopher Jennings]

Plus, if you look at anything from QAnon to some of what's being written about the Jeffrey Epstein case, all of these things. If you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States.

[Christiane Amanpour]

End of Days, Ruby Ridge, the apocalypse and the unmaking of America. What the Ruby Ridge standoff foretold about America's future. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Eighty years of peaceful world order under unprecedented, some would say self inflicted harm. Now thanks to the quote, wrecking ball politics led by the US President Donald Trump. That's the assessment of European security experts who are getting set to host world leaders and diplomats at the pivotal Munich Security conference, which starts tomorrow. Every day, Ukraine is fighting for its survival. Russia has again pounded the country with drones and ballistic missiles, further battering its energy system in the dead of its coldest winter at war. NATO members have again pledged more support for Ukraine, but they know they must insist, they must insist on their own security too. Are the days of relying on America then well and truly over? My first guest believes so and has a dire warning for Americans about the chaos and danger to come. Robert King. Robert Kagan is a traditional conservative foreign policy scholar. He calls himself now a former Republican. And his latest piece for the Atlantic is about America and the world. So welcome back to our program from Washington, Robert Kagan.

[Robert Kagan]

Thank you. Great to be here.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And you're literally in a deep freeze because there's snow behind you. So tell me what you really think is at stake right now. You just heard me, quote, European, the European report before the security conference, wrecking ball, demolition man, you know, a world order under destruction, all of that. Is that hyperbole?

[Robert Kagan]

No, not at all. And actually, I'm sort of impressed that the Munich people put out that report because I think it's right on the money. But it's unusually undiplomatic, I would say but it's certainly correct. And I think it really is a wake up call for Europeans and it ought to be for Americans as well.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay, so before I get to your article, then, how do you think Europe should follow through on that report in those terms? Because it is, you know, a real come to Jesus moment, if I can say that now, because it's been a year since J.D. vance essentially threw down the gauntlet to allies at Munich last year, and essentially this year has been one where Trump has done America first in a very interesting.

[Robert Kagan]

Yeah, I mean, I think Europe is coming to the realization, but they certainly need to come to the realization that they are.

[Christopher Jennings]

They can.

[Robert Kagan]

No, not only can they no longer count on the United States to provide the security guarantees that it. That it has been providing for 80 years, but they really need to understand that the United States is now a hostile and potentially predatory nation under Donald Trump. So Europe is now in the predicament of facing an aggressor and a predatory empire to its east, but also now a potentially predatory, but certainly hostile empire to its west. And so that means Europeans really need to, much more quickly than I think they intended, strengthen themselves both militarily and economically, so that they can protect their interests and, and their ideology, their belief in freedom and democracy and liberalism against the real challenges which are now coming from all directions.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So in case anybody missed it, you're basically saying two predatory powers, and you're putting on the same level then the United States and Russia, because you mean that hostile force, which is quite an extraordinary thing for a traditional Republican to say. Before I get to the heart of some of your criticism, do you not think that the height of the predatory, in your words, experiment by Donald Trump was over Greenland, and he said over and again that he has to acquire it, that, et cetera, et cetera, and Europe stood up as one and said no. Do you think that's the start of a pushback that's meaningful?

[Robert Kagan]

Yeah, I think the fact that, you know, Europeans are actually contemplating sending troops to defend against an act of American territorial aggression against an allied nation like Denmark, you know, really, it showed that if you do stand up to Donald Trump, sometimes you can be successful. But I also don't think the Greenland issue is over. Trump has been fixated on Greenland since his first term. And so that's why I think it's all the more important that the Europeans hasten to strengthen themselves in every way possible. Trump is clearly sensitive to economic pressures. I mean, I think that the biggest effect on him was the spike in the bond market, quite honestly. And so. But Europeans do have a lot of economic leverage if they're willing to use it. And stop referring to Donald Trump as daddy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Oh, boy. Yeah, that's the famous bazooka in terms of a trade weapon. So let me ask you this. You write in your article, Trump has managed in just one year to destroy the American order that was, and he has weakened America's ability to protect its interests in the world. That will be. So you're talking about America now. You know, for a minute, let's put aside responsibilities as an ally. And now, how does this action by Trump affect America? Why is America weakened, in your view?

[Robert Kagan]

Yeah, I think, unfortunately, Americans have taken for granted the enormous benefits that the United States gets both strategically and economically from all of its alliance relationships around the world. I mean, the United States is powerful, but it's not powerful than all the rest of the countries in the world put together. One of the greatest sources of American power has been its alliances in Europe and in Asia and its partnerships elsewhere. And if the United States is now going to turn against those powers as it is, and treat them as hostile players and competitors in the same, and really, in some respects have a more favorable view of Russia and China than of our own allies, then those allies are going to cease to be our allies. And then the United States will not have access to bases and free access to markets and the kind of general power that the United States has enjoyed in the world and that we, if we move into a genuinely multipolar world where there are no reliable allies, that's, that's going to weaken the United States and make everything that we have been doing for 80 years much more expensive and much more dangerous. The prospect of war climbs considerably if our alliance structure is being destroyed as it is by Donald Trump.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And actually, the alliance structure is what sets America apart certainly from the other so called wannabe superpowers. China, Russia, they don't have those kinds of alliances. And in the Atlantic, you quote a Chinese analyst who says the most important gap between America and China is, is not economic or military power, but it is America's global system of alliances. So we've just talked a little bit about it, but what, what happens to America's place in the world if those alliances are, and we're seeing polls saying many allies trust America less? The people in those countries, the leaders of those countries trust America less? What happens to America and to the world if that, you know, tried and tested system of alliances for the last 80 years essentially falls apart into A might makes right, you know, sort of world.

[Robert Kagan]

Himself.

[Delroy Lindo]

Yeah.

[Robert Kagan]

I mean, if it's every nation for themselves, then just take the question of bases, for instance. The United States has bases in Europe, which, ironically, it doesn't use, has not been using for the defense of Europe, but rather to project power and into the Middle east, into Central Asia and elsewhere. A lot of what Donald Trump seems to want to do when he wants to bomb countries does ultimately rely on the willingness of other countries to provide bases to the United States. You can't do everything from an aircraft carrier. So you can imagine America losing access to those bases, which significantly will weaken America's strategic position in the world to deal with all kinds of contingencies. That's just one example. But so is the question of access to resources. You know, right now, the oceans are pretty open because the United States is able to keep them open because it has the cooperation of most of the world. But if the world begins to regard the United States as a hostile and aggressive and dangerous power, which is what Donald Trump is portraying, then we won't have that kind of access. And in a sense, we have to fight for everything that we currently enjoy for free.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So, you know, we talked about Greenland, and you said, it's not over yet. I had on this program the former NATO Secretary General, who also was the former Danish Prime Minister. Denmark, you know, has sovereignty over Greenland, an autonomous province. But he said, and I'll play it for you in a second, that he really doesn't understand how the President of the United States has continued to alienate allies while also concurrently warming up to adversaries, particularly, you know, Russia. And this is what he says about the Russia, Ukraine dynamic seen from the Trump White House.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

I think President Zelensky has demonstrated a clear willingness to move to get a peace deal or a ceasefire. And I don't understand why the American administration continues to put more pressure on Zelenskyy than on President Putin.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So that was Anders Vo Rasmussen. Do you understand?

[Robert Kagan]

Well, I mean, there is one simple answer, which is that Zelensky is a weak, dependent actor. He's dependent on the United States and others, and therefore Trump has enormous leverage over him. Putin is not weak. Putin can't be pushed around by Donald Trump, and therefore he's willing to concede whatever Putin wants. But I would go beyond that to say that the truth is Trump doesn't want to be defending Ukraine. He would love to be able to write Ukraine off. That's certainly what his advisors want. That's what people in the Pentagon want, they want to cut Ukraine off and they also want to cut off U.S. allies. The problem for Trump is it's kind of embarrassing to openly be defeated by Vladimir Putin. And he doesn't like that the negotiations are a fraud. Right now, the only purpose of negotiations is to save face for Donald Trump. He keeps begging Putin to throw him a bone, and Putin doesn't want to do that. But, you know, I think it's just clear that Trump wants to cut Europe loose entirely. And, you know, he thinks he can sort of carve up the world with the other emperors. You know, he wants to be one of the world emperors. He can carve it up with Emperor Putin and Emperor xi.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, Andersville Rasmussen also said that Europe needs to learn to be a superpower and leverage its 450 million to 500 million strong population, its very, very big economic weight and to build up its military. Also, you've heard the prime minister of Canada talk about trying to get a broad coalition of middle powers, so to speak, to actually replace or go around a no longer reliable American ally. Can you just tell us whether either of those are feasible? How would they work?

[Robert Kagan]

Well, of course they're feasible. I think, again, people forget that, you know, several of the powers in Europe today used to be the strongest powers in the world not so long ago. I mean, Germany was clearly one of the strongest powers in the world and fought two world wars against almost everyone and only lost because the United States got involved. And France was a global empire. Britain ruled a huge quantity of the world at one time. And after World War I, which was a devastating war because there was no American security guarantee, everyone had to rearm and they did rearm, and then they fought another war. But the point is Europe is capable of rearming. They just haven't had to and we haven't wanted them to. I think it's worth recalling that we didn't want to have Europe emerging from World War II as the same kind of great powers who had led to conflict in the past. And so. But are they capable of doing it? Of course they are. They have the economic wherewithal. They have the population. They have the highly educated population, technologically capable population. It requires them to really, I think, change a lot of their sort of socioeconomic structure, unfortunately. But necessity is the mother of taking making sacrifices when you need to. And this is a matter of necessity for Europe.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let's revert to where you are, the United States of America. You wrote a previous book about called Rebellion. You're talking about the, you know, the origins of a sort of illiberal system inside America. What do you think is the state of American politics, democracy, freedom, human rights right now?

[Robert Kagan]

Well, I think we are one big step into dictatorship already. It's not clear to me that any, any institution in the United States is really prepared to stand up to Donald Trump. It seems the only people who are willing to stand up to Donald Trump are average American citizens in Minneapolis and elsewhere. And God, God bless them for that. But the US Congress, both parties, are unwilling to really fight Trump. The Republicans have become the party of dictatorship. So I think we are one deep foot into dictatorship. And I am worried, as I have said and others have been pointing out, about whether we will even have free and fair elections in 2026, let alone in 2028. I think Trump has a plan to disrupt those elections, and I don't think he's willing to allow Democrats to take control of one or both houses, as could happen in a free election.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And yet his own sort of border czar, Tom Horman, has gonehas been in Minnesota. He now says the ICE surge or the ICE presence is concluding also, you know, that some six Republicans broke from Trump policies to join a vote against the tariffs and against how they're being used. You know, that the grand jury failed to get any indictment against what the administration wanted, which was those six or so senators and others who urged soldiers not to obey illegal orders. Things seem to be moving.

[Robert Kagan]

I don't agree with that. I mean, it's always one step forward and two steps back with Donald Trump. And I don't think that they're finished with their plan. They've made a tactical retreat in Minnesota. That doesn't mean they're not going to send ICE into elsewhere. ICE is being funded at an unbelievable. I think ISIS now is paid more than the US Marine Corps is in terms of dollars. So, you know, it's going to be a massive force. And Trump has made very plain, you know, I think we ought to listen to him when he says there are 15 electoral areas that they would like Republicans to control, lest the Democrats, you know, quote, unquote, steal the election from them, by which they mean they just lose the election and they don't want that to happen. I think that we are still very much in danger. You know, the fact that six Republicans in the House voted on a measure about tariffs with Canada. What about the, what about the Republicans in the Senate who pretty much go along with everything that Trump says? What about Mike Johnson, the Republican speaker of the House, who basically is supporting Trump's desire to interfere in these.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Well, Robert Kagan, I'm headed to the.

[Robert Kagan]

Munich security, so I don't think you're out of the woods by any means.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'll put some of those questions to some of the American officials who I'll be hopefully speaking to at the Munich Security conference this weekend. And you raise very important points, particularly about elections. Robert Kagan, thank you very much indeed. And stay with us because we'll be back after the break.

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[Claire Duffy]

I'm CNN Tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service. Online dating has been part of modern romance for years now. And it's no surprise that as the Internet evolves, so too does the matchmaking. To better understand the current state of online dating, I turn to Hinge CEO Jackie Jantos, whose own marriage is a dating app success story. Have an open mind. Show up as yourself. Earnestly put effort into the experience. Try to overcome some of the hesitation you feel to put yourself out there because vulnerability and discomfort, this is all part of relationships. Listen to CNN's Terms of Service wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Next to the Oscars race and the most nominated film in Academy Award history, sinners has stunned audiences and critics alike. It was written and directed by Ryan Coogler. It tells the story of twins in 1930s Mississippi who aimed to set up a juke joint for the black community there, only to be met with a terrifying supernatural evil. Take a look at this excerpt from the trailer. There are legends of people with the gift of making music so true it can conjure spirits from the past and the future. This gift can bring fame and fortune. Will somebody take me? But it also can pierce the veil between life and death and full disclosure. Sinners is a Warner Bros. Discovery Film. CNN's parent company. Veteran actor Delroy Lindo is nominated for best supporting Actor for his role as Delta Slim. He was born here in London, but Lindo found success on stage and on screen in the United States, including starring in many Spike Lee films. And he's joining me now from Los Angeles. Welcome to the program. Your film is absolutely amazing, obviously recognized by all the awards and all the critics. What was it and what was your initial reaction when you first read this incredible script?

[Delroy Lindo]

The originality, even though it was set in 1932? I felt it was a very, very contemporary film. And it was truly a very particular, one of a kind narrative. And I acknowledged that I was aware of that immediately on reading the script.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And what about your character? You play Delta Slim? Very complex. It's really, really obviously interesting. There's almost like a film physical embodiment that, you know, you and the others display of sort of generational trauma. Tell us about the character and how you approached, you know, creating.

[Delroy Lindo]

Was a step by step by step process, essentially. Starting with my reading two books, Blues People by Ameri Baraka and who was Leroy Jones when he wrote the book, and. And Deep Blues by Robert Palmer. That was my intro into the project, reading those books and getting a sense of the lives and the lifestyles of many of the musicians featured in those works. I then started exposing myself to musicians such as Son House, Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, Ike Turner. Musicians who come from that region, Mississippi Delta. And additionally listening to, watching a lot of documentary film that focused on people from the Delta. So it was step by step by step by step by step. You know, to state the obvious, it was not a linear process. Right. I was gathering all of this data and then incorporating it into my own process as I started working on the material.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So obviously, the film shows the. As you kind of outline now, the connection between music and history. Music is so important to the film. Some people say, like, almost as a character in the film. There's a character called Sammy in the film?

[Delroy Lindo]

Absolutely.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah. Yeah. His guitar becomes not just a symbol of culture and survival, but an instrument of violence to actually try to protect his community. I want to play a clip where your character, Delta Slim, speaks to Sammy about the history and the power of the blues.

[Delroy Lindo]

Blues weren't forced on us like that religion. We brought this with us, Mahone. It's magic, what we do. It's sacred. A baby.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's actually mesmerizing. Even looking at those, you know, small and short clips. We talked about how you studied a lot of music. What do you think it was able to narrate to tell that that perhaps dialogue couldn't.

[Delroy Lindo]

Perhaps conveying a feeling, an emotional feeling, resulting perhaps in a visceral response from the audience. And I like that because it's not always about being able to verbalize. And I think that I can't speak for the audiences, obviously, but I think there is a visceral response that many people are having and on some level, that's accountable, accounting for the audiences viewing this film multiple times.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let's get to. The main characters of the film are the twin brothers, Smoke and Stack. They both happen to be played by one actor, Michael B. Jordan. Now they return home to the south from Chicago. This is the premise of the film to build a new life. And we have this clip where your character at a train station and you meet the twins and they ask you to come and play in their new juke joint.

[Delroy Lindo]

No, no, I'm not. I'm not meeting one of the twins.

[Christiane Amanpour]

One of the twins. Here it is.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Need you $20 to come play at our juke tonight.

[Delroy Lindo]

Yeah, I wish I could. I'm gonna be a messenger tonight, same as I am every Saturday night.

[Celsius Energy Advertiser]

I ain't paying you $20 a night.

[Christopher Jennings]

I know that.

[Delroy Lindo]

You ain't paying no $20 a night. You paying $20? Maybe tonight, tomorrow night, the week after that. Nah, I've been a messenger every Saturday night for the last 10 years. Messenger's gonna be there another 10 years after that. At least I play and I get as much corn liquor as I can drink. Sinner like me, I can't ask for more than that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Negotiations. What was it like, acting? I mean, look, it's kind of an obvious question, but with Michael B. Jordan, as he was playing two characters. I know that clip now was with you and one character, but what was it like.

[Delroy Lindo]

In the context of working on a scene? You know, I was focusing, and this may sound very selfish. I hope it does not. I don't mean it to sound selfish. I was focused on what I had to do. Michael B. And Miles playing preacher boy were focused on what they had to do. And we came together as professionals, and it was very, very rich. It was funny, it was very stimulating. And we found things between us in the scene that made the scene live and breathe in a very rich way, I hope, for the audiences.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let's go back to not quite the beginning, but let's go back to your past work because you've had a very long, very expansive career. You've worked with some of the you most influential directors. Your longtime collaborator, Spike Lee as well. Um, your childhood, though, I find also incredibly interesting. I hadn't realized that you were born here. Uh, you moved from here to Canada. You grew up in London. Apparently you didn't really feel British. Tell me a little bit about what it was like being a young black boy in this country.

[Delroy Lindo]

You're. You're as much. You're conflating some Things.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Okay.

[Delroy Lindo]

And I understand you have to work very quickly because your work covers a lot of different areas, but you're conflating a number of things. It's not that I didn't feel British, and I'm not quite sure what your sources are for this interview. What I can tell you to try to answer your question, what was it like for me? I'm the son of a Jamaican woman who was part of the Windrush generation, the Windrush phenomenon, which I'm sure you're familiar with. And we moved around a lot as when I was young, we moved quite a bit, I think. It's difficult for me to encapsulate Christine Amanpour. It's difficult for me to encapsulate in a few seconds my experience growing up in England. What I will say is that I'm writing a memoir right now, and, yes, I'm plugging my book.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I apologize.

[Delroy Lindo]

But in the book, in the process of writing the book, I am able to deconstruct more with a lot more depth.

[Christiane Amanpour]

All right.

[Delroy Lindo]

What my experiences were, how. What my mom's experiences were, how being in England impacted our relationship. So I'm going to do a really. Please buy the book.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, firstly, I appreciate your precision, and I'm glad you corrected some of the things I might have got wrong. You don't have to call me Ms. Amanpour. You can call me Christiane. But I am actually very interested because, you know, you said Windrush generation, maybe not everybody remembers, and I'm maybe gonna get a word or two wrong, but bear with me. It's the generation who were brought to Britain right from the Caribbean aboard the Windrush to help rebuild this country after the devastating impact of World War II. And then there was a lot of controversy about how they were treated and, you know, whether they were treated right after this history of helping this country. So let's explore a little bit more about what you're going to be writing in your memoir about this. It's an important origin story.

[Delroy Lindo]

Okay, thank you. Thank you. So you're speaking about these things in the past tense. And I would say that the dynamics that are impacting the Windrush generation and their offspring, of which I am a part, are probably still very contemporary dynamics that are at play in British culture today. What I'm investigating and trying to understand, I'm trying to understand more about my mom. I'm trying to understand more about myself because I myself was not aware of the windrush phenomenon until 2001. When I was in London working on a film, Wondrous Oblivion, directed by Paul Morrison, and through the process of. When we were rehearsing in pre production, before we had actually started filming, I came across the BBC Windrush documentaries, and I was really stunned because I had never heard about those, that. That. That Windrush before. So my. My part of my intent in working on my book is to understand what that means, what the Windrush phenomenon means to me personally and my mother, and to understand, as a result, aspects of myself and my mom that I was theretofore not aware of. That's what the process of writing the book has given me the opportunity to.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what did America give you that Britain could not, as an actor? And I mean, also, how do you feel about receiving your first Academy Award nomination 50 years into your career? You're 73. You don't look it, but you're 73 and you've got your first Academy Award nomination.

[Delroy Lindo]

There were probably three questions in there.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Christina, so I'll try to. I'm not going to get through this interview. Okay, Ask the first. First one. First.

[Delroy Lindo]

Yes, you will.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What did America give you that the UK couldn't.

[Delroy Lindo]

Opportunity. Opportunity to explore, investigate my creative self and then to have a commercial career. That's what America has afforded me. That was your question, correct?

[Christiane Amanpour]

That was the first bit of a very long, compound question. The second bit is, how does it feel at the age of 73 to get your first Academy Award nomination? You are 73, right?

[Delroy Lindo]

I will not answer. You know, I have to say this. I'm very. I'm happy I'm making you laugh and that we're sharing a laugh because you probably. You don't. Well, I won't say that, but because of the fact that your work focuses on such serious, rightly so. Topics, I'm glad you get to have a little bit of levity for a second. The award, the nomination. I'm sorry. The nomination has been absolutely meaningful. And I have to say that part of the experience of getting this nomination, I'm feeling really touched and moved by the outpouring of support and love that I'm receiving from fans who are really happy for me, and that's been very much a part of the experience of receiving this nomination. But the short answer to your question is that it feels very good.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Good. I'm glad to hear it. And on a wider, you know, scale, Sinners has also made history by becoming the most nominated film at the Academy Awards ever. It's got 16 nominations. So you talked about it also being contemporary in the current culture. So what do you think this level of recognition for the film, which is led predominantly by a black cast and crew, say, about where the culture is headed now?

[Delroy Lindo]

I'm not sure and I'm not skirting your question. I would say that clearly the recognition both from the Academy and both from audiences globally is an affirmation for the vision of Ryan Coogler. That's one. As far as I'm concerned, the film represents a cultural moment. It's a cultural. It's touched something in the zeitgeist that results in. Partially results in its success and the fact, as I mentioned before, that audiences are going back multiple times to see this film. Personally, I think that the film, I think it's a work for the ages. I think that it will be studied on university college campuses. But as far as the future impact of the film, and I'm not sure you asked me this, but as far as the future impact of the film, only time will tell. But I do have a very strong feeling that it will be just as impactful in five, 10 years from now because I think the work has that kind of magnitude.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It really is incredible. Listen, thank you very, very much indeed. It's been really a pleasure.

[Delroy Lindo]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Interesting and entertaining to talk to you.

[Delroy Lindo]

God bless you. Thank you very, very much. And I'm glad we were able to share some levity. God bless and all the very best. Thanks for having me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Thank you. And good luck to you.

[Christopher Jennings]

Take care.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And we'll be right back after this short break.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Claire Duffy]

It's not about knowing that exercise is good for you, that's going to necessarily motivate you to exercise. But there's a lot of inner barriers, psychological barriers to moving our bodies.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

That's Dr. Diana Hill. She's a psychologist and she's also co authored a really interesting book with biomechanist Katie Bowman. It's called I Know I should exercise, but 44 reasons we don't Move and How to get over them. 44 reasons specifically, we're gonna talk about a lot of those reasons and how to motivate yourself to move your body. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcast.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And now we revisit a moment that shocked a nation. The 1992 Ruby Ridge siege. It was an 11 day armed standoff in the mountains of Idaho between federal agents and the Weaver family. It left three people dead. In his new book, End of Days, Chris Jennings argues that the episode rooted in apocalyptic, racist and anti government ideology helped pave the way for today's conspiracy driven politics. Walter Isaacson spoke with him on the legacy of that widely televised event and what it reveals about America today.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Thank you, Chris. John and Christopher Jennings, welcome to the show.

[Christopher Jennings]

Thank you, Walter. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

It's been 34 years since the tragic events at Ruby Ridge remind everybody what that story was and why. You want to revisit it now.

[Christopher Jennings]

Sure. The story in its most basic form was a tale of a family who had moved to northern Idaho from Iowa to separate themselves from a civilization that they thought was doomed. They thought the end of the world was coming. And the man eventually became ensnared in a minor crime, selling two illegally modified guns. And the situation sort of spiraled from there. They had a very conspiratorial view about the United States government that came out of a fundamentalist background that they. They had been praying and worshiping in these various fundamentalist churches. And so he refused to go to court. And in the effort, very protracted, expensive effort to, to get him to come down the mountain and face the rather minor charge for the guns, the situation devolved. And there was. His son was killed and a U.S. marshal was killed, and their dog was killed. And the following day, his wife, Victoria Weaver was shot, and Randy was shot. Victoria died. Their friend Kevin Harris, who was living with them was shot. And a protracted siege began with none of them in the family wanting to come out of the cabin. And it was really a tragic situation. But I wanted to revisit it because I thought a lot of the elements that are active in our contemporary political life are sort of there in seed form the conspiracism, deep distrust of the government, issues over whether when and when federal agents can use deadly force against citizens. All the things that we're talking about today.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Well, Ruby Ridge became a big symbol for the clash between, you know, government and the sort of, well, end times prophecy philosophy, right?

[Christopher Jennings]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think the story has usually been told as a matter about free speech and gun rights and freedom of religion and government access. But really, the way I tell the story and what I think is the most relevant thing at play is the religion, the theology that has been present in our national life for a long time, but this particular strain of fundamentalism that breeds this conspiracism and this deep distrust in the government. And you know, what happened at Ruby Ridge was a lot of those theories were Sort of vindicated in the minds of the people who already held them. These were people who said, the government's going to come and kill you. And then in their case, as it happened, the government did.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Well, wait, wait, remind us what End Times prophecy, what that movement is.

[Christopher Jennings]

It's, you know, in the book I narrate how American history as Protestant theology has evolved in a pretty significant way from say, the founding until the present, especially starting at the end of the 19th century and really accelerating through the 20th century, where the prevailing belief among a lot of American evangelicals and fundamentalists flipped from a belief that the sort of kingdom of God was coming to earth and the world was gradually going to be perfected through the spread of the gospel and material progress to an apocalyptic faith. The idea that the end of the world is nigh and that you can read biblical prophecy through current events and sort of map, you know, the book, the Book of Revelation onto the daily newspaper and say which, which country represents what biblical nation and, and that those beliefs really spread over the course of the 20th century, especially in the 60s, 70s and 80s, when the weavers were, were getting deeply involved with their faith.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

How is End times prophecy at all relevant today?

[Christopher Jennings]

Some of the sort of like moods and attitudes that it brought into American Christendom and then sort of supplement subsequently into American life in general, derive from End Times prophecy. This belief in creeping globalism, that conspiracy is the true engine of history, that there's a secret battle between light and dark playing out just beneath the surface of events. I mean, if you look at anything from QAnon to some of what's being written about the Jeffrey Epstein case, all of these things, if you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

And why did Northern Idaho become such a haven?

[Christopher Jennings]

Well, Northern Idaho became a haven not just for fundamentalists, but for anyone looking to sort of escape from what they regarded as an America in decline. It was an inexpensive place to live, it was lightly peopled, and it was overwhelmingly white. The Aryan nations, which plays a key role in this story because it was through their involvement with the Aryan nations that the Weavers ended up in legal hot water, established itself in the Idaho panhandle and a lot of other groups that would go on to sort of form the nucleus of the militia movement. And there was a couple of sort of hard right terror organizations in the 80s, most famously the group called the Order, who committed all kinds of acts of terrorism, bombings, robberies, murders. They were all centered up there it was an area that while people tend to think of the Old south as the sort of homeland of organized white supremacy in the US by the 80s and mid-70s to early 90s, it was really the inland Pacific Northwest where the action was happening.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

How important is racism to this whole phenomenon? And was it really white supremacists or was it that just sort of tangential to the End times prophecy?

[Christopher Jennings]

Well, in the case of the Weavers, I mean, part of how the story was sort of processed and became a bit of a morality play about the excesses of big government, the racial part and the sort of neo Nazism part got scrubbed out of it a little bit. But the Weavers were true believing hardcore white supremacists. And pretty much all the people in their community were not all the people in the community where they lived, but the community of activists with which they took part. And I think that the theology and the white power stuff were inextricable for them. They interpreted the Bible. There was a movement called Christian Identity which taught a way of interpreting the Bible through the lens of race very explicitly in which the Jews were the agents of Antichrist and they were going to be the ones to usher in this end times government that would oppress Christians and similarly dark views of people of color.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Well, Randy Weaver seems paranoid and conspiratorial, but when he gets arrested, I'm going to quote your words. It really did come to resemble a version of every paranoiac's most outlandish nightmares. Was there some truth to that conspiracy and paranoid feeling?

[Christopher Jennings]

The Weavers, for more than 10 years before they fell under siege from the elite FBI Hostage Rescue Team had been saying someday our home will become under siege by federal agents. And we. They literally filed an affidavit five years before any of this even started saying we're going to kill a federal agent and then in self defense and then they're going to come and kill us all. They prophesied with shocking precision what actually ended up happening to them. So you can either say it's because Vicki Weaver herself was a real prophet, or you can say that there is a way in which these deep paranoias can form fulfill themselves.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

You said that one of the most fateful decisions comes aboard. I think it's an FBI jet flying from Washington D.C. out there. Tell me what that was.

[Christopher Jennings]

Sure. I mean the government made a lot of mistakes in just their failure to understand what they were dealing with, with people like the Weavers. But the one that was sort of most unambiguous was this decision to revise their own rules of engagement, which is basically the written document that says when an FBI agent can shoot at a citizen. And on board that jet, laboring under the misbelief that they were sending their. Their tactical team into an ongoing firefight with a band of zealous white supremacists intent on killing as many federal agents as possible, when in fact what they were going to confront was a family cowering inside of their cabin, waiting for themselves to be killed. They revised their. Their rules of engagement to say that any adult with a gun, once a surrender announcement has been issued. And bearing in mind this is after a U.S. marshal has already been shot and killed by Kevin Harris, the Weaver's friend. They said any adult with a gun can and should be shot on site after, after a surrender announcement. And the whole thing unraveled from there in really tragic ways. But subsequently, when the government did a long post mortem on everything that had gone wrong, that was the most obvious and most obviously unconstitutional act was that revision of the rules of engagement.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

How did the change in federal policies that came after Ruby Ridge, how might that affect the investigations happening into the shootings in Minneapolis now?

[Christopher Jennings]

Yeah, I mean, the analogy between the killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy and the killings that happened at Ruby Ridge are. There's something to them because there was this matter of qualified immunity. There was an effort to prosecute the sniper who had shot and killed Vicki Weaver. And I think the analogy kind of breaks down after that because that was unsuccessful. Qualified immunity was used as the federal defense, and that sniper never saw trial. And in the case of Ruby Ridge, I think the scale of the government's response, if you actually look at it thoughtfully, is mostly a testament to their effort to avoid any kind of conflict or gunplay. What we saw recently in Minneapolis, to my mind looks more like direct carelessness. Not necessarily. I mean, certainly among the agents on the ground, but the policy itself seems designed to stir up chaos. I think the question of qualified immunity, what legal liability is there for federal agents who shoot citizens, needs to be taken very seriously, I think, because as we saw in Minneapolis, the sense that there is total immunity for these CBP and ICE officers has led to a lot of public mistrust and obviously a lot of tragedy in the last couple of weeks.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

You describe that time period as, I think the quote is an era not unlike our own. Why so?

[Christopher Jennings]

Well, you know, Ruby Ridge came immediately after the end of the Cold war and before 9 11. It was the sort of moment in which the American Right. Especially turned what had been a long standing sort of, well, of conspiratorial energy that had been directed outward largely at global communism, turned inward and. And became fixated on the notion that the, the evil was coming from within our own federal government. And so there was a time, sort of without an obvious foreign antagonist for people to attach their, their anger and their attention on. And it was a time of sort of. It was, it was happening more on the fringes then than it is now. But there was sort of populist energy and widespread conspiracies. And I think all of those things are very present in our current moment.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

You referred to it as a hard right phenomenon, far right phenomenon, but to what extent was it just a fringe phenomenon that had very little to do with pure ideology and could be hard fringe left too?

[Christopher Jennings]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. I think in this case the term hard right really fits. These were people who held beliefs that are commonly associated with the hard right. They were generally deeply anti Semitic and racist. They hated the government. They were generally Christian fundamentalists. So all of those things I think are fair to classify in this case as qualities of what we might call the hard right. But sure, of course, there are conspiracy theories across the political spectrum in general. I think if you look throughout American history, they tend to have a rightward valence only because I think conspiracy theories are sort of an allergic reaction to social change. They're a fundamentally reactionary way of engaging with the world. So, you know, their response to anything new. You know, Social Security was met with a torrent of end times related conspiracies. The Obamacare, as you may recall, was met with this. It's usually like large federal programs become the object of these things. Same with large waves of immigration. There are a lot of conspiracies about Catholics. When Catholics were immigrating in great waves recently, we've seen a lot of conspiracies about people coming from other parts of the world. So I would argue that while of course conspiracy theories exist across the political spectrum, they have historically had rightward valence just for that reason that their response to change.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

You write that three decades on Ruby Ridge seems less like a finale than the start of something. Tell me what you mean by that.

[Christopher Jennings]

Well, you know, when Ruby Ridge happened, and an important fact is it was very swiftly followed by the disaster in Waco at the Mount Carmel compound or the Branch Davidians, where the same federal agencies were responsible for the death of a bunch of citizens in very similar circumstances. And those two events really coming as they did at the end of the century and the end of the millennium, looked like features of the 20th century. They were all, you know, there was this fundamentalist ideology, there was all this trappings of neo Nazism, there was all this aftershocks of Vietnam. Those things all seemed like what we were leaving behind in the 20th century. But now I think if you, if you read about the Weavers, you get this uncanny feeling that these are people of our current time. And, and certainly the extent to which some of the fringier ideas of that era have now moved into the mainstream suggests that Ruby Ridge was the dawn of our, of our current age, not the close of the, of the previous one.

[Anders Fogh Rasmussen]

Christopher Jennings, thank you so much for joining us.

[Christopher Jennings]

Thank you so much, Walter. I appreciate it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A fascinating story. And finally, an update on our story from last night about a helmet, a message and a ban. Just hours before he was set to hurtle down the ice at breakneck speed wearing a special talisman, Ukrainian skeleton racer Vladislav Hraskovich was barred from competition. His crime, refusing to remove his helmet bearing the faces of fellow athletes killed during Russia's invasion of his home country. A teary eyed IOC president Kirsty Coventry said the rules are the rules. They're in place to protect athletes. Though critics question whether silencing the issue of remembrance serves that goal. This is what she said.

[Kirsty Coventry]

He is an athlete and for me, I was not speaking to him in that room as I president, I'm speaking to him as an athlete. We have these rules in place to try and be fair and also to try and allow for us to do both things right, to allow for athletes to express themselves, but also to allow for athletes to be safe. And I really, truly believe that both he and his dad understand.

[Christiane Amanpour]

The safety piece is a little unclear to me, but surely this was one of those rules that was made to be broken. Horascovich, who was considered to be within striking distance of the podium, said he felt emptiness at not being allowed to compete in Kyiv. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy wrote on X. We are proud of Wladyslav and of what he did. Having courage is worth more than any medal. And seriously, ioc, isn't there a reason you've decided not to let Russian athletes compete under their own flag? That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

[Christopher Jennings]

News cycle making your head spin, the have I got news for you Crew is here to help with a comic take on the week's headlines. New episodes, Saturdays at 9 on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.