Amanpour – "Trump's 'Wrecking-Ball Politics'" (Feb 12, 2026)

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN International)
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Main Guests: Robert Kagan (foreign policy expert), Delroy Lindo (actor), Christopher Jennings (author)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the escalating global insecurity stemming from the United States’ recent "wrecking-ball politics" under Donald Trump. Christiane Amanpour interviews prominent conservative scholar Robert Kagan on the unraveling of the transatlantic alliance and the fragility of democracy in the US. The episode also features interviews with Delroy Lindo about the Oscar-contending film "Sinners" and Christopher Jennings on how the Ruby Ridge siege previewed today's apocalyptic, conspiracy-driven atmosphere in America.

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. The Shattering of World Order: Trump’s Impact on Global Alliances

[01:01-08:19] — Robert Kagan on the US, Europe, and NATO’s Future

• Kagan’s Opening Assessment:
  Kagan supports the Munich Security Conference's alarmist report, calling it "certainly correct" and "a wake up call." America, under Trump, is now seen as "a hostile and potentially predatory nation," placing it alongside Russia as a threat to Europe (03:54-04:54).

  “Europe is now in the predicament of facing an aggressor and a predatory empire to its east, but also now a potentially predatory, but certainly hostile empire to its west.”
  — Robert Kagan [04:16]

• European Response:
  Kagan urges Europe to rapidly strengthen itself militarily and economically, warning of grave dangers if it fails due to both Russian and American threat vectors.

• Consequences for the US:
  The US has "taken for granted" the strategic and economic advantages conferred by alliances. If Trump’s antagonism breaks these partnerships, America will lose global influence, critical military bases, market access, and will face "a might makes right… world."

  "If the United States is now going to turn against those powers as it is, and treat them as hostile players and competitors, ... then those allies are going to cease to be our allies. ... The prospect of war climbs considerably if our alliance structure is being destroyed."
  — Robert Kagan [07:04]

• Discussion of Bases & Global Access:
  Kagan details how US military bases, secured through prior alliances, are vital for global projection of power. Without trusted allies, the US would need to "fight for everything that we currently enjoy for free" (09:14-10:19).

• Greenland as a Flashpoint:
  On Trump’s obsession with acquiring Greenland and European pushback, Kagan notes this demonstrates Europe’s capacity for resistance, "but the Greenland issue is not over."

  "Trump has been fixated on Greenland since his first term."
  — Robert Kagan [05:35]

2. The State of American Democracy

[14:45-17:53] — Kagan on Domestic Authoritarian Trends

• Dire Democracy Warning:
  Kagan asserts "we are one big step into dictatorship already," expressing skepticism about US institutions' ability to resist Trump’s autocratic actions (15:10).

  “It seems the only people who are willing to stand up to Donald Trump are average American citizens in Minneapolis and elsewhere. And God, God bless them for that.”
  — Robert Kagan [15:18]

• Erosion of Checks and Balances:
  Kagan sees the Republican Party as "the party of dictatorship," raising the alarm about possible future election interference and the erosion of “free and fair elections.”

• Minneapolis ICE Actions & Congressional Resistance:
  Amanpour notes recent pushback against Trump’s policies (ICE’s diminished presence, some Republicans opposing tariffs), but Kagan dismisses these as minor, warning that overall, authoritarian plans remain in play.

3. Europe’s Potential as a Superpower

[12:45-14:45] — Can Europe Fill the Gap?

• Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s Call:
  Rasmussen urges Europe to adopt a ‘superpower’ mentality, leveraging economic and demographic heft.

• Kagan’s Take:
  Europe has the resources and capability to rearm and increase global influence—if compelled by necessity.

  "Necessity is the mother of making sacrifices when you need to. And this is a matter of necessity for Europe."
  — Robert Kagan [14:38]

4. The World through Art: “Sinners” — Delroy Lindo Interview

[19:29-35:59] — Delroy Lindo on Sinners, Music, and Identity

• On the Film’s Power:
  Lindo praises "Sinners" for its originality and contemporary resonance. He describes his rigorous preparation to portray Delta Slim, immersing himself in blues history and culture.

  "It was not a linear process. I was gathering all of this data and then incorporating it into my own process..."
  — Delroy Lindo [21:44]

• Music as a Character:
  The film treats music as a living, sacred force—a conduit of history and emotion.

• Notable Quote:

  "Blues weren't forced on us like that religion. We brought this with us, Mahone. It's magic, what we do. It's sacred."
  — Delroy Lindo as Delta Slim [23:36]

• On Representation and Impact:
  Lindo reflects on Sinners’ historic Academy Awards recognition, suggesting it’s "a work for the ages" likely to be studied and remembered for its cultural moment rather than predicting broad cultural changes.

  "It will be just as impactful in five, 10 years from now because I think the work has that kind of magnitude."
  — Delroy Lindo [35:34]

• Personal Journey & Memoir:
  Lindo discusses his Windrush-generation heritage and ongoing self-discovery, emphasizing the long-term impact of migration and its resonance in his current book project.

• On Late Recognition:
  Lindo, at 73 and after a five-decade career, expresses gratitude for his first Oscar nomination, noting the meaningful support from fans.

5. Ruby Ridge and the American Apocalypse

[37:08-52:31] — Christopher Jennings on Ruby Ridge and Conspiracy Culture

• Legacy of Ruby Ridge:
  Jennings argues that the 1992 Ruby Ridge siege, rooted in apocalyptic and racist ideology, was a precursor to today’s conspiracy-driven politics.

• End Times Prophecy and Radicalization:
  He tracks how American fundamentalist Christianity shifted toward apocalypticism, fueling "creeping globalism" fears and a “battle between light and dark” now evident in movements like QAnon.

  "If you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States."
  — Christopher Jennings [41:34]

• White Supremacy and Theology:
  Jennings details how the Weavers and their network mixed religious prophecy with hardcore white supremacism, underlining their inextricability.

  "The Weavers were true believing hardcore white supremacists... The theology and the white power stuff were inextricable for them."
  — Christopher Jennings [43:24]

• From Fringe to Mainstream:
  Ruby Ridge, and the myths around it, weren’t an end but "the dawn of our current age," as far-right ideas metastasized into mainstream US politics (51:13-52:28).

6. Final Story—Athletic Protest and Remembrance

[52:34-54:38] — Amanpour Closing Story

• Amanpour reports on the banning of Ukrainian skeleton racer Vladislav Hraskovich for wearing a helmet honoring slain compatriots, touching on the power and complexity of symbolism in times of war.

  "Having courage is worth more than any medal."
  — President Volodymyr Zelenskyy (social media, quoted by Amanpour) [53:52]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Europe is now in the predicament of facing an aggressor and a predatory empire to its east, but also now a potentially predatory, but certainly hostile empire to its west."
  — Robert Kagan [04:16]

• "We are one big step into dictatorship already."
  — Robert Kagan [15:10]

• "Blues weren't forced on us like that religion. We brought this with us, Mahone. It's magic, what we do. It's sacred."
  — Delroy Lindo as Delta Slim [23:36] (film excerpt)

• "Necessity is the mother of making sacrifices when you need to. And this is a matter of necessity for Europe."
  — Robert Kagan [14:38]

• "If you've read enough prophecy, you can hear echoes of this long history of popular prophecy in the United States."
  — Christopher Jennings [41:34]

• "The Weavers were true believing hardcore white supremacists... The theology and the white power stuff were inextricable for them."
  — Christopher Jennings [43:24]

• "Having courage is worth more than any medal."
  — President Zelenskyy (quoted by Amanpour) [53:52]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:01] Introduction to Trump’s security challenge, Munich Conference context
• [03:05] Kagan on the Munich report and transatlantic danger
• [04:54] Discussion of the US as a predatory power
• [07:04] Kagan on the loss of American power without alliances
• [14:45] State of American democracy, rise of authoritarianism
• [19:29] Delroy Lindo on "Sinners" and portraying history
• [23:36] Delta Slim film excerpt: the spiritual depth of blues music
• [27:27] Lindo on the Windrush generation and writing his memoir
• [32:06] Lindo on opportunity in America vs. Britain and late-in-life recognition
• [37:08] Walter Isaacson & Christopher Jennings on Ruby Ridge and right-wing militias
• [41:34] Jennings on end-times prophecy echoing into current conspiracies
• [43:24] The inextricable link between white power ideology and theology at Ruby Ridge
• [51:13] Ruby Ridge as the start of a right-wing conspiratorial age
• [53:52] Amanpour on the Ukrainian athlete’s protest, including Zelenskyy quote

Overall Tone & Atmosphere

• Urgency and Gravity: Conversation with Kagan is marked by deep concern over the erosion of global security and democracy.
• Resilience and Identity: Delroy Lindo’s interview offers warmth, humor, and depth in discussing both personal history and the power of art.
• Analytical Reflection: Jennings provides historical context with a nuanced, sometimes somber examination of American extremism.

Summary for New Listeners

This episode presents a multifaceted look at global destabilization in an era dominated by US political upheaval and rising authoritarianism. Leading thinker Robert Kagan warns of the decaying world order and democratic institutions as America’s alliances fray under Trump. In parallel, Delroy Lindo explores generational trauma, music, and identity in the groundbreaking film "Sinners." Christopher Jennings’ analysis of the Ruby Ridge standoff reveals the deep roots of today’s conspiratorial, apocalyptic far-right movements. The episode culminates with a meditation on individual resistance and remembrance amid war, capturing the gravity and complexity of our moment.