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- [00:04]
Bianna Golodryga
Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.
- [00:08]
Anderson Cooper
Today we must be just as determined and strong as we were when the invasion began.
- [00:18]
Bianna Golodryga
Four years of full scale war in Ukraine. At this grim milestone, I asked journalist Natalia Gumeniuk how ordinary Ukrainians are faring. Plus the state of the battlefield with military analyst Michael Kaufman.
- [00:33]
Juan Arredondo
Then he filmed on the front line of conflicts all around the world, armed
- [00:40]
Bianna Golodryga
only with a camera. The story of journalist and filmmaker Brent Renault, the first American killed while reporting in Ukraine. I speak to fellow journalist Juan Arredondo and Brent's brother Craig, who directed the Oscar nominated documentary.
- [00:56]
Maya Shankar
And yes, change can offend us, but it can also reveal things to us.
- [01:00]
Bianna Golodryga
Cognitive scientist Maya Shankar talks to Hari Srinivasan about her new book, the Other side of Change, exploring how we navigate the upheaval of life. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christian Armanpur. A moment of silence in Kyiv today as Ukrainians mark a grim four years of war. Four years since Russia launched its full scale invasion of Ukraine. Four years of endurance and loss with hundreds of thousands killed and many more wounded. Now President Zelensky is doing everything in his power to convince his allies to stay sticks with his country.
- [01:58]
Juan Arredondo
Russians must learn that Europe is a
- [02:01]
Anderson Cooper
union of independent nations and millions of people who do not tolerate humiliation and will not accept violence.
- [02:11]
Juan Arredondo
Thank you.
- [02:12]
Anderson Cooper
Please continue to defend the European way of life. Please support Ukraine.
- [02:20]
Bianna Golodryga
Today, European leaders were in Kyiv showing support, but the US Sent no senior official. Meantime, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in an address on state TV today that Ukraine and the west will regret their efforts to defeat Russia. As this war enters its fifth year, we'll look at the state of the battlefield. But first, how are ordinary Ukrainians faring? Journalist Natalia Gumeniuk joins the show from Kyiv where she's been asking people how they feel about the war four years on. Natalia, welcome to the program. I'm sorry that it happens to occur as we are marking such a heartbreak groundbreaking anniversary and milestone. Here President Zelensky is saying that Ukrainians are not broken and it's understandable and admirable that that is what he's saying. But you've spoken with so many of these broken parts of the country. You've seen so many broken parts of the country firsthand. In fact, you noted that Viktor Frankl's Man Searching for Meaning, which was actually written in the 1940s in a concentration camp, is now a bestseller within Ukrainian trenches. Just what does that Say, say about the psyche of Ukrainians today, especially Ukrainian soldiers,
- [03:35]
Natalia Gumeniuk
I think it's different when you think about we need to stop this war or we need to stop the invasion. Because if you just, you know, do nothing while instead of stopping the invasion, we would end up in the occupation. And I've reported about the occupied territories and the horrific situation which is there where people are abducted, where they are under the huge repressions, where people actually mobilize to the Russian army after the four years of the full scale invasion. And I remind there are 12 years since the invasion. So the Crimea and the people in the eastern Ukraine are also kind of forced even to fight in the Russian army, which is obviously tragic. Here we take the war as a hard labor. So obviously people are tired. But what I believe, the soldiers, I talked to a lot of military, I spent a lot of time in the, you know, where I could be with them in the trenches. They are learning how to fight. Cost efficient war. Cost efficient war. It's meaning we need to have a cheaper technology to defend ourselves. It's still, there are losses, but it requires labor, it requires a lot of people being mobilized and the whole society being still helping each other. Of course there are refugees, of course there are different people, but there are still like too many. And that's what I'm saying, there are too many of us who are still pretty resilient, hardened. And I also say that Ukraine is in the strongest position if you speak about the military capacity at this moment.
- [05:05]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. And that's what we'll hear more of from our next guest, Michael Kaufman, who agrees with you on that point about Ukraine actually having a stronger year on the battlefield in 2025 than they did the year prior to that. But for Ukrainians, we've long said this is an existential war. Perhaps for Russia, only one man views it existential and that's Vladimir Putin. It is not a war of necessity for ordinary Russians, but it is for Ukrainians. And just given that, do you think that that has helped keep the country, keep Ukrainians going forward and continuing the fight? As poll after poll shows, the majority of the country is still not ready for President Zelensky to give in to most of President Putin's demands.
- [05:52]
Natalia Gumeniuk
So first of all, with the negotiations which are happening, there is obviously also the problem that the Russians are tempted by any type of weakness. So as long the Ukrainians are pushed into any concessions, the Russians want more. They always looking for weakness. And therefore I think that there are problems with the current negotiation strategy. It was also the hardest winter. And I think it's a bit paradoxical and a lot of people should understand that it was the year of the negotiations, but it was the hardest for the people with the highest civilian casualties because of the growing intensified attacks on the civilians, on the cities like Kyiv, with destroying Ukrainian power grid. Ukraine found some of the solution. But of course, it's devastating, it's difficult. But I'll give another quote of the soldier also. I met, it was also, you know, during one of the talks somewhere, and I didn't feel honestly so open to speak about the U.S. but he said, like, you know, it's a bit. We're in the situation when your friend is sick, you know, ill, and you have a drug, but you don't give it, you don't give this pill. So of course it's disappointing, but it's still like, we're fighting this illness, we're fighting this war as illness. And I do think that the people who still have reserve the biggest discussion in the society, how we share this burden. So it would be fair that there would be the rotation among the soldiers that, you know, like people who maybe did a lot during the first years of war. There would be the new ones to come to work in the mill tech, also serve in the front. So unfortunately, we do not see, you know, like, the ending, very, very much close. Therefore, you need to develop the competences, develop the qualities and share the burden of the suffering, more or less in the fair way.
- [07:42]
Anderson Cooper
Yeah.
- [07:43]
Bianna Golodryga
And as President Trump is continuing to push and put more pressure specifically on Ukraine for a fast settlement. We know that Hungary and Slovakia are blocking the EU from billions of dollars in additional aid, though the majority of the bloc does support providing that aid. And you write something that's very striking. You say, the clearer it has become that Ukrainians can truly rely only on ourselves, the less anxious the national mood has seemed. I found that quite striking, especially when we go back to some of the other statistics that you have mentioned, which are quite grim. The United nations reports that 2025 was the deadliest year for civilians. The birth rates have collapsed. A recent CNN report characterizes Ukraine as a nation of widows and orphans. This has now gone from an emergency to a reality in Ukraine. How has that changed the country?
- [08:40]
Natalia Gumeniuk
I do still think we need to give the, you know, the credit for the Ukrainian society to more or less keeping the life normal, because, you know, CNN working a lot in Ukraine, and you also see that part of the life is normal and the people live in Kharkiv. In sumy, in the towns very close to the frontline because we understand that it's still a better life than under the occupation. So the whole point is about how to make this effect of the war less devastating. So indeed it's extremely sad how many people died, but also those casualties, I definitely don't want to diminish them. But if you're speaking about, for instance, 16 Southern civilians, we knew without the defense there would be hundreds of thousands. There would be, might be possibly millions. So the Ukrainian reality is really to make the life livable. I should give a credit for the European partners. We have a number of the, you know, European leaders visiting Kyiv today to show that solidarity because part of the Russian plan was, you know, to cut Ukraine fully, you know, to force Europe, for instance, to abandon Ukraine. And it didn't happen. So, so I should say today, the day when we are remembering what has happened four years ago, it's definitely not a celebration, but it's in some way recognition of the resilience, recognition of own resilience because everybody reminds us and remember how we were given three days and that the capital would be ruined. And also that for instance, Ukraine didn't receive a proper weapon because a lot of Western experts thought and governments that, oh, it would be overtaken by the Russians because Ukrainians won't stand more than three weeks. And that didn't happen. So this mark of four years, it's grim, but it also tells a lot of the other story as well.
- [10:31]
Bianna Golodryga
Yes, the story of the Ukrainian will to continue to fight for the country's independence. Natalia Gumeniuk, thank you so much for your time and for your report reporting. And later in the program, four years after Russia invaded Ukraine, the way this war is being fought has evolved. Military analyst Michael Kaufman tells me where things stand now on the battlefield.
- [11:07]
Anderson Cooper
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are living with life altering losses. On stage was always this place that for all my life that was safe for me. Something broke in me when that happened. My guest is Eric Church. He's had an incredible career in music. Eric is 48 now with a long list of hits under his belt. But Eric also knows loss. After Vegas happened, those bullets shattered that safety, talking, grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [11:57]
Bianna Golodryga
Now, as we enter the fifth year of war, what's the state of play on the battlefield. The Kremlin spokesperson conceded today that Vladimir Putin's special military operation has not achieved its goals and will therefore continue. But at what cost? Since the start of the full scale invasion, nearly 1.2 million Russians are dead or injured. This is According to the U.S. based Center for Strategic and International Studies. Military analyst Michael Kaufman was born in Kyiv and has spent years studying the realities of this war. He joined me a little earlier to discuss his latest foreign affairs piece, Ukraine's War of Endurance. I started by asking him about his assessment that in 2025 Ukraine actually did better on the battlefield than most people think.
- [12:42]
Anderson Cooper
So my view is that 2025 went better for Ukraine than expected. Although Russia continued to have advantages in manpower and immaterial, they were not able to convert those advantages to big gains on the battlefield. The way they're fighting simply hasn't been conducive to achieving operationally significant breakthroughs. And Ukrainian military, while facing shortages of manpower, having a lot of difficulties in terms of material supply, still was able to hold them to incremental gains. If we look at the territory that the Russian military gained last year, a lot of it were along the axis or places where they didn't actually really prioritize them. And Ukraine was ultimately able to hold on to still a piece of Donetsk that the Russian military very much wants to capture. So if we look at how 2025 closed out, Ukraine faces a host of difficulties. But the Russian military simply hasn't done well. And that's been the case for two years now. The winter is particularly grim given the Russian strikes against Ukrainian critical infrastructure. But nonetheless, the situation along the front line isn't dire at this moment.
- [13:43]
Bianna Golodryga
But you do note the difficult reality that Ukraine is facing in these early months of 2026. You've described a shift from speed and maneuver to a positional slog. Is this specific to the unique geography and where in which this fighting is taking place?
- [14:02]
Anderson Cooper
So I think there's two big factors. The first is this is a prolonged conventional war, right? And wars often go along this fashion once both forces have a tendency to get exhausted and you have prepared defenses, you have minefields, you have artillery in place along a strewn on battlefield. And so one of the things that you tend to see is that after a period of time, both sides tend to struggle to establish any kind of decisive advantage in the fight. But the second factor of course is also drones. They brought mass precision to the battlefield and they big been a big multiplier, particularly for the defending side. In this war, which is the Ukrainian military. And so the Russian forces have really struggled to find a way to achieve any kind of significant breakthroughs on a battlefield characterized by both traditional prepared defenses, but also the advent of drones and the presence of mass precision on this battlefield.
- [14:51]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, and you note that Ukraine no longer can claim drone superiority and say that Russia's specialized drone units like Rubicon, have effectively neutralized Ukraine's early 2025 advantage. What can Ukraine do now to regain that superiority technologically?
- [15:09]
Anderson Cooper
So Ukraine did enjoy a considerable advantage, and that advantage has been reduced over the course of 2025. The Russian military also deployed elite units. They also got after being much better organized in how they employed drones on the battlefield. That said, they haven't been able to translate that still into significant gains. And their ground forces continue to take very significant casualties in their advances. The big challenge for Ukraine is how to stay ahead technologically. Ukraine's invested heavily in uncrewed ground vehicles, for example, to do logistics and do casualty evacuation, because many casualties now are no longer the frontline infantry there. To those fighting and supporting roles. The Ukrainian military is trying to maintain a qualitative edge that's trying to stay ahead of the Russian armed forces. But the challenge is that on this battlefield, you see both sides adapting and innovating in about three to four months intervals. And the Russian military does have a tendency to try to copy whatever they see working for the Ukrainian military and then trying to scale that into production.
- [16:05]
Bianna Golodryga
And Russia, though, they've seen significant losses, maybe some 25,000 soldiers a month, does have a manpower. And what's interesting is following this war over the last year or so is you've noted that these drone operations, they still require a lot of manpower. So where does that put Ukraine on this front?
- [16:27]
Anderson Cooper
Yes, drone operations remain fairly manpower intensive. Despite everything you hear about autonomy and artificial intelligence in this war, the reality is that most capabilities are remotely operated by people. It takes quite a few people to maintain them, takes quite a few people to operate to repair them. And with that, you know, being the key factor, yes, Russia retains an advantage in manpower, but that advantage, too, has not proven decisive. Russian recruitment is increasingly coming up against their monthly unrecoverable losses. And there's an active debate whether or not they'll be able to sustain the numbers that they had in 2025 heading into 2026. Ukraine is prioritizing its manpower challenges. It does have a big problem with people who are absent without leave. It does have a problem with insufficient personnel being mobilized and with drone units Ultimately having to recruit not just outside the force, but a lot of times from within the force. That being said, they're also trying to find ways to reduce the number of personnel they have on the front line and to create better opportunities for rotations to create additional forces. So for Ukraine, manpower remains an important challenge, but it is one they've been prioritizing as best that they can given the constraints that they are operating under.
- [17:36]
Bianna Golodryga
And Russia's economy is facing some of its most severe constraints thus far in this war. And your colleague at Carnegie economist Alexander Prokopenko describes Russia's economy as being, quote, in the death zone, consuming itself in order to survive. And this is what she wrote in the Economist. Westerners keep waiting for the Russian economy to collapse. It won't, but nor will it recover. The Russian economy is stuck in what might be described as negative equilibrium, holding itself together while steadily destroying its own future capacity. She's essentially noting that Russia's growth is completely defense sector driven at this point. So what incentive, in your view, does Vladimir Putin have in ending this war if there will be severe repercussions in having to realign economic investments once the war ends?
- [18:27]
Anderson Cooper
So while the Russian economy and Russian elite have adapted to this war, now, since we're marking this grim four year anniversary, or for many Ukrainians a 12 year anniversary, the reality is that after the war the Russian military is likely to continue to benefit from substantial defense spending. Russia may pass a very large state armament program later this summer. And the Russian government is going to keep spending on its military, maybe not the same share of GDP and government spending that they do right now. Currently Russia spends almost 40% of the government budget on the military and maybe 8% of their GDP. I do agree with Sasha Perka Panko. The Russian economy is currently facing economic stagnation, a whole host of budget deficits across the regions, growing deficit in the government and low oil prices. And it has to offer substantial discounts for the sale of its oil due to pressure from sanctions. And so most of the indicators for the Russian economy are negative. That said, it's not clear that any of these effects are taking place fast enough for Ukraine. That is to say, it is likely true that the Russian economy isn't going to collapse this year. However, it is doubtful that Vladimir Putin is completely immune to the costs. And if Ukraine's strategy of making the war futile for Russia shows progress, then it is a good question to what extent will Russia be forced to negotiate and substantially reduce their current demands at the negotiating table?
- [19:48]
Bianna Golodryga
You also Write that Putin has bet on a Ukrainian collapse and a Western abandonment. Both Betsy proved to be wrong. How significant is that for him?
- [19:58]
Anderson Cooper
Well, I think that that's been the bet Russia's been making for the last two years almost. And there's a good chance he's going to try to make this bet again going into 2026. However, the way the Russian military has been fighting hasn't been conducive to leading to any kind of collapse on the Ukrainian side. The Ukrainian military continues to adapt. And despite the hardships that they face, they are still the beneficiaries of substantial material support, intelligence support from Western countries. It is the United States is no longer providing most of its support as assistance or aid, but they've onlineed a mechanism for European countries to essentially fund the continued provision of this assistance. And as you saw most recently, European countries in December ultimately agreed to issue a large euro bonds package in order to sustain Ukraine financially. And so the Russian bet that they can simply outlast the west simply hasn't proven true. Now, V. Prun is likely to keep making it. And what you saw about the Russian economy, his assumptions, those are the kind of things that are true until they are not. That is to say, at some point transitions can give and you can have gradually then suddenly effects. And so from my point of view, yes, Putin may keep making this bet, but it is increasingly not in smart debt because everything we've seen in 2025 begins to tell us that time is not really on Russia's side in this war.
- [21:16]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, and also important to note that while the United States may not be directly providing Ukraine with military equipment and weapons there, as pointed out, selling them to Europe and still providing Ukraine with intelligence as well. Final question to you, Michael. Four years ago you were among the minority who actually predicted that this larger scale invasion would take place, while so many others were skeptical. Looking back at your calculus, what was the one thing about either Russia's side or Ukraine's perhaps that has surprised you in how this war has unfolded?
- [21:54]
Anderson Cooper
So I'll be honest, I mean, I wish I wasn't right back then, but certainly the way the Russian military invaded looked very different than folks like I predicted. And what particularly surprised both the character of the invasion, the assumptions they made, that they essentially weren't prepared for a major conventional war. But also Ukrainian resistance proved a very significant factor. I think we knew far less about the Ukrainian military at the time and substantially underrated it. And also about ourselves, our own policies in Western countries. Most of the expectations back Then were based on the proposition that Ukraine was going to have to face Russia alone, which was seemingly a grim proposition at the time. However, very quickly Western countries, especially the United States, changed course on policies, began to share intelligence and ultimately provided military assistance. And I think that too, on top of Ukrainian boltified has made a significant difference in this war.
- [22:44]
Bianna Golodryga
Michael Kaufman, quickly, the last time I spoke with you, you predicted that this war would go into 2026. At this point point. Do you see this war coming to an end in 2026?
- [22:56]
Anderson Cooper
That's hard to say. I do think that we are perhaps near the beginning of the end, but there's a good chance this war is going to go into 2027.
- [23:03]
Bianna Golodryga
All right, Michael Kaufman, really appreciate your analysis. Thank you so much for the time.
- [23:09]
Anderson Cooper
Thank you for having me.
- [23:12]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, it's not just soldiers and civilians caught up in this deadly war. More than 20 journalists and media workers have been killed in Ukraine. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists. One of them was Brent Renaud, an award winning documentary maker who was shot by Russian soldiers less than a month into the war. Now a new documentary short called Armed Only with a Camera tells his story.
- [23:36]
Juan Arredondo
He filmed on the front line of conflicts all around the world,
- [23:44]
Anderson Cooper
but what
- [23:44]
Juan Arredondo
he cared about the most were the people caught in the middle.
- [23:47]
Bianna Golodryga
Describe what you see. The Oscar nominated film is produced by Juan Arredondo who was shot in that ambush that killed Brent. And it's directed by Brent's brother Craig, who worked alongside him for 20 years. They both join me now live. Craig, Juan, thank you so much for taking the time. Craig, I am so sorry for your loss. Juan, my condolences for the loss of your colleague and friend as well. And let me begin there. Juan, as you've been listening to our interviews this past hour, marking the grim milestone of the fourth year of this war we've now entered five years. You were beside Brent when he was killed. In the early days of this war In March of 2022, you were severely injured. I'm just wondering how you're reflecting back on these last four years.
- [24:48]
Juan Arredondo
Well, thank you for having me. It's hard. It's hard to look back and it's a reminder how cruel war can be and how lasting sometimes can be. Unfortunately, this conflict has been dragging on for way too long and has claimed the lives, as we have heard in the interviews, of not only civilians but also journalists. 23 journalists have been killed According to the CPJ, the community to protect journalists. And so these, you know, every, every year it's hard to Always think back of that day that we were. That my. My friend, my dear friend and our colleague died. So it's. It's. It's sad to look back at these. These four years and see that there's no progress.
- [25:29]
Bianna Golodryga
And Juan, how. Juan, how did surviving that moment and now spending three years working on this film, how did it change you as a journalist, as a person?
- [25:41]
Juan Arredondo
Well, I have to say, as a journalist, I think I'm more convinced that what we do matters. You know, we have to be present. I think Brent understood that, and journalists doesn't. We know that we won't stop violence, but we will make denial much harder, and it will create a record. And what we hope to accomplish with our work is to create a record so won't be easily erased. So I think these three years have been a process of healing, of remembering our. Our friend and colleague. So with. With Craig has also been this journey of brotherhood, of looking back and reflecting on their work on the legacy of Brent, but also propelling. I. I continue. I just. I'm on my way back home from reporting, so I continue to do work. I think more than ever, journalism matters and is important to what's happening around the world.
- [26:41]
Bianna Golodryga
And Craig, you as a brother, you and Brent, you had a pact that if one of you were killed or kidnapped, quote, we keep filming, and you did just that. Even filming his casket, where we see your brother, it's very difficult to watch. I know you had the intent of having the audience go through that discomfort to see the realities of war and the risk that journalists like your brother take in covering wars around the world. Let's play a clip from the film that showcases that moment.
- [27:26]
Craig Renaud
So.
- [27:29]
Juan Arredondo
So he just kept repeating it. You know, we've been shot, we've been shot, we've been shot. And he, you know, and I said, where's Brent? And he said, he's been shot, too. I've been pulled away into a separate vehicle. He's still there. And I said, where was he shot? And I said, did he have his vest on? And he said, yes. And then I said, was he shot in the vest or the face? And Juan paused. He didn't answer me. And I knew right then Brent was gone.
- [28:05]
Bianna Golodryga
And it was right after this moment that you then traveled to Ukraine, filmed your brother's body in that casket, and brought him back home. When did you know that this had to become a film? And how did you carry the weight of telling his story as you were grieving yourself?
- [28:28]
Juan Arredondo
Yeah, as you mentioned, you know, Brent and I Talked about this a lot. You know, we covered conflicts for 20 years, and we had a lot of conversations and moments where we felt like we might not make it home. And we did make a promise to each other that if something was to happen, we would keep filming. And, you know, the last message I got from my brother was as he and Juan were arriving to the front lines, you know, and not long after that, I got a call from Juan saying they had been shot. And so pretty much instantly after I was able to confirm that my brother was killed, I knew I had to pick up a camera and go retrieve my brother's body and bring it home to my family, you know, and journalists. It was journalists that helped me get Brett home and helped us get Juan home. You know, Juan was badly injured at a hospital that was being actively bombed. You know, there was going to be no way to get my brother's body home if we didn't go into Ukraine and bring him out. And so I felt it was important to have my camera and document this journey of a journalist being killed, you know, And I felt that we had covered conflicts for 20 years and filmed the horrors of war. And I felt like, why should it be any different when my brother was killed? So I started filming immediately, and then it took us about three and a half years to edit the film and finish it.
- [29:47]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, you're a journalist, and a great one at that, but you're also a human being, and you are also someone who is extremely close with your brother. I know that you hope to follow in his footsteps as a documentarian, and you chronicle that in the film as well in your childhood. Let's show a clip.
- [30:11]
Juan Arredondo
My brother Brent was two years older than me. When we were little, I can remember following Brent around everywhere. I always looked up to him. When Brent told me that he wanted to be a documentary filmmaker, I had to be there alongside him. For the next 20 years, I followed my older brother to the most dangerous places in the world.
- [30:43]
Bianna Golodryga
We know that Brent was intensely private as well, and that's showcased in the film. It includes intimate moments where he reveals that he actually had a diagnosis of autism and says that he somehow was calm in war zones, but extremely uncomfortable when he was at social events and at cocktail parties. Did you hesitate at all ever to share that side of him?
- [31:11]
Juan Arredondo
Well, we were careful when we were editing the film. I felt like if it was something that Brent had shared himself, then I was comfortable sharing it. You know, Brent had given a speech to his classmates. He was a Harvard nieman fellow in 2018 and made a decision to talk about his diagnosis to his classmates. And we were fortunate to have that talk that he gave. Juan was actually there that day. That's how they met at Harvard. So we just, you know, we tried to ask ourselves if we felt like this is things that Brent wanted revealed. But we also felt it was important for people to understand all sides of Brent and what drove him. You know, he was a very intense and quiet person, but also a very empathetic and compassionate person, and that's ultimately what drove his work. You know, we covered conflicts. Brent covered pretty much every front line since 9 11, but it was always motivated by the innocent civilians that were caught in the middle. And that's what motivated him, and that's ultimately what led to his death. You know, him and Juan that day were trying to push deeper into the conflict, not to cover bullets flying. They were trying to get to refugees who were fleeing their homes and. And to tell that story so that people could understand what war and violence does to people.
- [32:26]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, let's talk about that extraordinary empathy. Juan, in Somalia, in the film, we see a wounded man telling Brent, quote, the way you hold that camera, you're doing it from your heart. This is moments after a terror attack, and you see how wounded this man was, but he calls Brent over to tell him that very thing. And there's also a moment of the film in Ukraine where he's trying to comfort a Ukrainian woman after a Russian attack. Let's play that clip.
- [33:00]
Maya Shankar
This doesn't look good.
- [33:23]
Juan Arredondo
Were you here when the bomb hit?
- [33:46]
Bianna Golodryga
I tear up every time I hear that woman say, it's so scary. And Brent was standing there just inches away from her to capture it. Juan, having worked with Brent, what did he understand about humans, about what civilians went through during times of crises, especially. Especially a war.
- [34:10]
Juan Arredondo
Yeah, I think that was a gift that Brent and that I was lucky to see in action and see in live how he was just very empathetic to the situation, wanted to understand, not come to the scene or as you see in that scene, not come with any prejudgment, honestly, just with curiosity, with open heart, and wanted to understand what people are going through, respecting, obviously, as you see in the clip, that the woman at one point says she just doesn't want to speak anymore. And we always respected that. But I think people can see that and saw in him this humility, but also this kindness of just wanting to be there. And when you're in these situations, people want to talk, they want to be heard. And I think they perceive that in Brent, that he just genuinely wanted to tell their stories. Oftentimes we came across people thanking us for being there, for caring for, for their conflict and for, for being in their country in the midst of, of the start of the invasion, as we were in that week of this clip. So I think that's what comes across in many of the, of the scenes that we have in the documentary. I always go back to that clip in Somalia because it was hard, it was hard to find that Craig had a, he probably can tell you that story better, but he had a dream where Brent told him. There's a. Footage of that, but that, that's what I think people perceived in him. The way he held the camera, the way his composure and, and we were just listening. We never intervened. We never pepper people with many questions. We just honestly wanted to have a conversation with.
- [35:53]
Bianna Golodryga
Listening, you know, as we always tell other journalists, is the best form of journalism when you're really trying to get to the truth. And as you are nurturing, as you are investing and supporting other journalists, I know you're doing that, Craig, through the Brent Renault foundation, you're mentoring young journalists in creating healing spaces. In these final few seconds, just give us a bit of what you are encouraging them by. When we see the number of journalists that are killed around the world only go up, how are you keeping them hopeful and reminding them of how important this field is?
- [36:32]
Juan Arredondo
Yeah, and we want to remind them how to do this job as safely as possible. You know, I think journalism has really changed in the 20 years that I have been doing this. When we would enter conflict zones, we were always concerned about the danger and, and we knew the risk. But this is a whole different ball game now where journalists have a target on their backs and are being targeted. You know, there's been over 400 journalists killed since my brother died. Every single year since he's died, it's been a record breaking year according to cpj and it doesn't show any signs of getting better. So we want young people to understand the risk, but also understand why this is so important to keep going. You know, I mean, Brenton talked about this. Without journalism, there is no democracy.
- [37:15]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. Well, Craig Renaud and Juan Arenando, you capture his commitment to this field, to truth telling so brilliantly in this film. Thank you so much. Armed Only With a Camera is out on hbo Max and Full Disclosure. HBO shares a parent company with cnn. We'll be right back with, with more after a break.
- [37:45]
Maya Shankar
Hey, I'm Jesse Palmer, host of the Bachelor with some exciting news. After more than 20 years of drama, the Bachelor Mansion is getting is getting
- [37:55]
Juan Arredondo
My bad a makeover.
- [37:58]
Maya Shankar
Your favorite former contestants move back into the mansion to see their secrets, refresh rooms and win the hearts of the judges. Bachelor Mansion.
- [38:09]
Bianna Golodryga
Bachelor Mansion takeover special series March 2nd
- [38:12]
Maya Shankar
at 8 on HGTV.
- [38:19]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, from global conflicts to the climate crisis and the growing threat of artificial intelligence, it's easy to feel overwhelmed by the uncertain times we're living in. But how can we best navigate it all? Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist and former senior advisor in the Obama administration. Her new book, the Other side of Change offers some guidance on ways to deal with the unexpected as she discusses with Hari Srinivasan Biana.
- [38:45]
Craig Renaud
Thanks. Maya Shankar, thanks so much for joining us. You have a book out called the Other side of who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans. You've also had a very successful podcast for a number of years called Slight Change of Plans. What made you want to talk about these things to write this book about change?
- [39:03]
Maya Shankar
I think it's because I feel like I'm really terrible at navigating the unexpected changes in life. And I find it really scary and really destabilizing. For one, I don't love uncertainty. And it turns out that most of us, our brains are not wired to enjoy uncertainty. One of my favorite studies shows that we are actually more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of receiving an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance. So we would rather be certain, hurry that a negative thing is going to happen than to have to grapple with any uncertainty. And of course, a big unexpected change in our lives is accompanied by so much uncertainty. And then there's also the loss of identity and many other very discomfiting elements to the change process. And so I was so eager to figure out how can we all do change better, Right? It's going to come for all of us whether we like it or not. And so as a cognitive scientist, I wanted to put on that hat and explore this space further.
- [40:04]
Craig Renaud
Yeah. So tell me, I mean, is this the full gamut of changes, whether it's a new job, a new city, a divorce? I mean, what kinds of changes?
- [40:11]
Maya Shankar
The kind of change I'm most interested in is the one that is wildly unexpected. The moments in life in which the anvil falls from the clear blue sky and we feel so unprepared and uncertain about how to move forward. It's so interesting because I think in these tough moments in my life, I've heard this mantra that while we can't control what happens to us, we can control our reaction to what happens. And it's meant to be an empowering mantra. It's rooted in ancient wisdom. But in those moments, honestly, it is really felt hollow. It has rung hollow. And that's because I haven't actually known how to change the way that I respond. It's not like there's a switch in my brain that I can just flip on that will suddenly make me feel more peaceful or more hopeful or more certain about the future. And so my goal in writing the Other side of Change was actually to give people a manual to pair powerful stories of change with the science of human behavior to help us understand how we can actually think and feel differently about these moments of disruption in life.
- [41:18]
Craig Renaud
One of the quotes you have is, what if we saw the hardest moments in our lives as a chance to reimagine ourselves rather than as something to just endure? What potential could change unlock within us? So how do we take that thing that feels like this heavy anvil and turn it into a potential for revelation?
- [41:37]
Maya Shankar
So when a negative thing happens in our lives, it can feel like a personal apocalypse, like the world that we knew and grew so comfortable with is no longer available to us. And one of the fascinating things that I discovered when doing research for the book is that apocalypse comes from the Greek word apocalypsis, and this actually means revelation. And so that etymology is quite instructive. Basically, what it's saying is, yes, change can upend us, but it can also reveal things to us in these moments where we are thrust into a new reality. The demands and stresses of our new situation can reveal things to us about who we are that were previously hidden from view. So things like our attitudes and beliefs about the world and ourselves, new capabilities, new ways of seeing the world. And I have felt very heartened that we can at least have this to look forward to. You know, I would say, by and large, out of the people that I interviewed for the book, they're not necessarily happy that they had to go through the change they went through, which makes a lot of sense, right? Who would welcome illness or heartbreak into their lives. But what they were really grateful for was who they became as a result of the change they went through. They were grateful for the newfound confidence or freedom they tapped into, the renewed relationship they had with their family, the new possibilities that they envisioned for their future. All of that was an unexpected gift that came from the hardest moments of their lives.
- [43:09]
Craig Renaud
You write about a woman who suffers a stroke and has a very rare outcome, which is that she's really locked into her body and all she can control is the ability for her to blink. And in that chapter you write, our attachment to a specific identity can stand in the way of accepting our new reality. Tell us a little bit about this woman and how she managed to deal with the most significant change we could ever imagine.
- [43:36]
Maya Shankar
Yeah, it was such a harrowing change. And one thing that I've learned over the years is a primary reason change can feel so scary and so intimidating and so grief, and is that it can challenge our fundamental sense of self, our self identity. And for Olivia, the woman in the book who has a massive brainstem stroke in her early 20s, she is left with what's called Locked In Syndrome. So, as you mentioned, when you have Locked In Syndrome, you cannot voluntarily move any of the muscles in your body except for the muscles controlling your eyes. So blinking is your only portal for communicating with the world around you. And one thing that I was so intent on doing with this book is to capture extraordinary stories, but ones that also had universal lessons, very relatable lessons that lay within them. And so it turns out that one of Olivia's biggest barriers is that she was by nature a people pleaser. She really wanted to win the approval of others in her life. And what becoming Locked in did is it limited her ability to curate an image of herself to be the kind of person that she thought would be palatable to those around her. And so it's an extraordinary story of someone having to reckon with really confronting their true self because she had no other option, and learning to actually embrace that self and to learn how to love and accept herself fully. And what I found so wonderful about Olivia's story is that it shows that our sense of self identity truly is malleable. I had a personal experience with change when I was a teenager in which I had been an aspiring concert violinist. I was studying at Juilliard under the renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman, and an injury ended those dreams overnight. And I also felt this profound loss of identity. I didn't realize until I lost the violin how much it had come to define me. And learning about Olivia's unbelievable experience of change, which, of course, is so much more significant than anything I went through, was so instructive for me. I learned that it can be precarious to anchor our identities too much to these precarious sources, in my case, to what I did. And that's because life can take Away your what in a moment. And so I learned that actually one lesson for all of us is to instead anchor our identity to why we do the things we do. And when you identify what your why is, whether it's a commitment to service or having a creative outlet, or improving at a skill, that why will be a stable force that serves as a compass to guide you towards your next step.
- [46:17]
Craig Renaud
One of the things that you also mention is the power of awe. And I know we can't all go and stand on the edge of the Grand Canyon every day, but what are ways where we can inject kind of awe into our lives that might help break these negative doom loop cycles?
- [46:35]
Maya Shankar
Awe is one of my favorite anti rumination strategies. And that's because it really is available to all of us. Now naturally, when we think about awe, we think about things like music and art. But there are other kinds of awe that I think is under recognized is called moral beauty. And this is when we actually just witness other people's extraordinary actions or behaviors that might be their kindness or self sacrifice or courage or resilience or ability to forgive another person. And that truly is everywhere. It might be at the supermarket when you watch someone be extra kind to an elderly shopper, or at the playground and you witness the little kid stand up to the bully. And what's really important to understand about awe is that when we are in the presence of something vast that transcends our understanding of the world, this is the definition of awe. It really does change our brains. And that's because it will dampen the activity in the default mode network in the parts of our brains that are associated with self immersion. And so by doing that, it allows us to step outside of our individual wants and needs and anxieties and to see ourselves as part of a larger whole. And again, to be able to see our problems with a bit more distance and a greater sense of wonder and possibility.
- [47:51]
Craig Renaud
You write about an individual named Reginald Dwayne Betts and his story. At the age of 16, he was sentenced to nine years in prison for an armed carjacking. And he said that with one guilty plea, the list of possibilities has been reduced to no possibilities. And since leaving prison, he is, you know, won several awards for his poetry. He's gone to law school, He's a prison reform advocate. From his story, how did he create kind of these alternate possibilities for who he could be?
- [48:23]
Maya Shankar
I think we're all familiar with that feeling we have when life makes other plans for us and we see all of these doors closing around us. What research shows is that when we try to pick up the pieces and reimagine who we can be in our new circumstances, our imaginations can really restrict us. And that's because we can carry unfounded assumptions about the kinds of futures that are available to someone who's facing our new situations. So, for example, someone who's just lost their job or is now a full time caregiver or is navigating an illness or, like Dwayne, is incarcerated. And one of my favorite strategies for cracking open our imagination, for seeing that there are actually more expansive possibilities for us, is moral elevation. So we talked a little bit about moral beauty, right, as a form of awe. Well, what is moral elevation? It's that warm, fuzzy feeling that we get in our chest when we witness someone else's extraordinary behaviors. And what happens is when we experience someone else defying our understanding of what humans are capable of, in this case, in the best way possible, because they've shown us the best of humanity, it can actually crack open our own imagination about what we are capable of. And what Dwayne shares is that it was actually an encounter with a fellow prisoner, a guy who showed such deep care and kindness to the younger men in prison, he helped teach them how to box to protect them from the threat of violence. That inspired Dwayne to realize, oh, he could use his voice to actually protect the young men in prison. And he ended up deciding to become a poet to use words to dignify the experience of men of color within the prison system. And as you mentioned, he's just had an incredible path and so much success. And I just love that it was a moment of moral elevation that led him to this point.
- [50:20]
Craig Renaud
You share very vulnerably on your first on your podcast, and now in the book, your own journey with miscarriage and surrogacy. And, you know, you write, I was going to be a violinist, and then I was going to be a mother. And now I find myself conceiving of a future in which I am neither. Unexpectedly, I'm more hopeful than I've ever been. How did you get to this place of hopefulness?
- [50:47]
Maya Shankar
So, long story short, my husband and I had been trying to start a family for, at this point, about six or seven years. And I still remember the night we found out that our surrogate had miscarried for a second time and that we had lost identical twin girls. And I was just devastated, Hari, because the day had been a total emotional roller coaster. We had seen healthy, beating hearts in the afternoon and Then we get greeted with this really tragic news that the pregnancy was not going to work. And I remember just being under the covers, just, you know, feeling really, really miserable and very despondent, and like all the color from my future had been drained, that it had been turned to grayscale, because one of the earliest dreams I ever had was to become a mom. And I remember my husband Jimmy came into the room and he said, maya, let's do a quick gratitude exercise. And let me tell you, in that moment, I was not having it. I was like, judy, you go do your toxic positivity thing in the corner. I'm not doing this. I'm staying under the covers. But there was something so earnest about his request. And so I thought, okay, let me just try this. And by the way, what he was having me engage in unknowingly was called by psychologists a self affirmation exercise. And this is when you listen to all the things that bring you meaning in your life, that give your life purpose, that are not threatened by the change you're going through. And so I engaged in this self affirmation exercise, and I just started to rattle off some items. I said, well, you know, first and foremost, I'm grateful for you, Jimmy. I'm also grateful to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I'm grateful that I get to go into the little closet in my apartment and record my podcast, the Slight Change of Plans, where I get to hear extraordinary stories of people from all over the. And it was so incredible because as I was doing this exercise, I feel like something magical happened, which was that for the first time in years, I zoomed out on my life. I let go of the tunnel vision that I developed when I was so intently focused on achieving this goal of mine of trying to be a mom. And I saw that my life was still so rich and multidimensional. There were so many other identities that I still found so much meaning and value in. And so I would encourage people, whether they're in the throes of change or not, to do this quick exercise. Take five minutes to write down all of the things that bring your life meaning, and it will just help you to see your life as a whole and to not feel that every fiber of your being is being threatened when something you know doesn't go according to plan.
- [53:21]
Craig Renaud
The book is called the Other side of Change. The podcast is called A Slight Change of Plans. Maya Shankar, thanks so much for joining us.
- [53:27]
Maya Shankar
Thank you so much for having me, Hari.
- [53:31]
Bianna Golodryga
And finally, as the brutal war in Ukraine enters its fifth year. We leave you with displays of solidarity from around the world, from French lawmakers applauding Ukraine in assembly to buildings in Brussels lit up overnight in yellow and blue. Plus, the opening of a new museum in Berlin featuring items from the front lines to commemorate resilience and the suffering of those affected. Right. That is it for now with the sombering anniversary today for us that we've covered. Thank you for watching and goodbye from New York.
- [54:07]
Juan Arredondo
News cycle making your head spin. The have I Got News for you? Crew is here to help with a comic take on the week's headlines. New episodes Saturdays at 9 on CNN. And next day on the CNN app.