Tom Fletcher (3:21)

Well, thanks for having me on, Paul, and good afternoon. Yeah, I've Spent a week inside Darfur. I've just come back out through the Adjrai border crossing into Chad. And I met countless, countless survivors who told me horror stories of mass executions, gang rapes, of the ordeal they've had to go through simply to escape from Al Fasha, leaving loved ones behind. I met one young lady who had somehow managed to scoop up the malnourished child of her neighbor, having just watched her neighbor and her own husband being killed. She'd then taken that perilous trek to Tawila, where we'd been able to provide her with that support. But on the way, she had her leg broken when she was attacked by militia members. And so many stories like that. This really is the epicenter right now of human suffering in the world.

Paula Newton (4:14)

And you do call it the epicenter of human suffering. And on Friday, the Human Rights Council ordered an urgent investigation into reports of human rights violations in Al Fashr. I mean, realistically, and I ask you now, what do you expect from the process? You have been quite tough on the UN in general, the organization that you work for. How confident are you that it will deliver real accountability and obviously put a stop to this?

Tom Fletcher (4:43)

Well, ultimately, that depends on how strong the member states, the international community, are willing to be. I absolutely back that call for an investigation. All the evidence I heard and saw during my visit suggests that Al Fasha is a crime scene right now. And so we've got to get the investigators in fast to hold people to account to investigate this atrocity. But also we need that presence on the ground and that international sustained effort to stop the next atrocity. We to need, whether it will be in the Kordofans or elsewhere. This conflict is still going on and the world has been painfully inactive so far.

Paula Newton (5:20)

Painfully inactive. We will get to that in a moment. We do want to get to the point that rights groups really have been trying to gain as much evidence as they can of girls sexually assaulted, ethnically targeted executions, abductions for ransom. I am wondering what kind of documentation already exists from the un And I want to ask you as well, from any evidence that's been been gathered, what are the patterns of atrocities here that are emerging?

Tom Fletcher (5:50)

So a number of our partners across the humanitarian community are collecting evidence. We also have to get the professional investigators in as quickly as possible. And one of the things I've been negotiating with the RSF and others is getting access to Al Fasha as soon as we can under our conditions, which means complete neutrality and independence of our teams going in based on what I'VE been hearing from the survivors just up the road and in Korma where I was two days ago, and in Tawila where I spent two nights. There will be huge amounts of evidence. But you'll also understand if I hesitate from giving too much detail right now as to how that evidence is being collected. I need to protect our humanitarian workers and also protect the access that we are seeking to get for our life saving aid.

Paula Newton (6:35)

In fact, they have been a target throughout this conflict. What can you tell us about that? Because it must really hamper any kind of humanitarian efforts that you have on the ground there.

Tom Fletcher (6:46)

Hugely. And you know, I've been in the last year to so many of these crisis spots. I've been into Gaza twice and this is my second visit to Darfur. I've not been anywhere where the complexity of the access arrangements is so difficult to navigate. You've got to get along. I've just driven back down it two days on very, very bumpy road to get to Tawila. Along the way, we must have gone through 40, 50 checkpoints manned by different armed groups. I say manned, actually. It's children who are running these checkpoints. We came through a pretty dicey forest fire on the way back. There was a drone strike on a near a UN convoy as we were going in. Logistically, security wise, politically, this is a really, really tough place to operate. But we're determined that the UN will be as close as possible to the people we are here to serve. The UN is not a ship that was built to stay in harbor.

Paula Newton (7:42)

True. When you talk about the risks, I do believe it is chilling, as you said, to see essentially teenagers running some of these checkpoints. I'm sure. I do want to talk about your talks in the last week. So you met with Sudan's military leader, General Abdel Fattah Al Buran in Port Sudan. You said those talks were constructive. What agreement, if anything, did you get from him to ensure neutral, independent access for everything you have on the table right now? And you highlight, highlighted it yourself that you also spoke in fact to the RSF forces. Did they give you any reason to be hopeful that you would have access to Al Fasher?

Tom Fletcher (8:22)

So with General Bohan in Port Sudan, I insisted on the need for us to have complete access everywhere in Sudan on the basis of need. And I'm confident that the agreements, the commitments he gave me will hold. But we will be very clear in holding everyone here to account for actually delivering on their commitments to give us that unhindered access with the RSF I was particularly focused on getting access to Al Fasha. Now, I don't know how many, how long that will take us, but I'm pretty confident we will be in Al Fasha very soon based on the commitments that I secured a couple of days ago from them. But again, I insist, this has to be on our terms. We can't go in in a way that instrumentalizes our aid or politicizes our aid or manipulates our aid in any.

Paula Newton (9:09)

And again, you highlight how complicated this will be coming forward. You obviously need help from not just the UN but other countries as well. The un you said at a meeting at the UN Security Council last month that you warned of a crisis of apathy. You know, do we describe it as indifference? I'm wondering how you describe it. Is it just that they've had too much on their plate? I mean, Sudan's suffering has been profound, as you have pointed out again and again. And yet, why do you believe the international community is reacting this way? Is it apathy? Is it complacency? What is it?

Tom Fletcher (9:48)

That's the crucial, crucial question here. You know, our Appeals are only 32% funded, so we are making brutal. I've just sat with our team here in Adre who are literally today making life and death choices about which programs to cut. And, you know, I mentioned that young lady I met in Tawila who'd escaped from Fascia carrying that malnourished child of her neighbor. If international leaders showed an ounce of the courage and humanity that she shows, then we'd be able to resolve this. Then we would get this outpouring of generosity. She said to me as I left her, is help coming? And of course I said, yes, but that's the challenge. That's the challenge to world leaders, particularly people who are boasting about cutting aid right now. Will you stand up and stop this war and get this help in because it's so badly needed? You're right. Apathy, indifference, distraction. But these are not good enough excuses right now.

Paula Newton (10:41)

And you make the point, right, that you had to look that woman in the face and say, is help coming? And you say, yes, obviously you want to give her hope, and you still have hope. I can hear it in your voice. There is certainly the United States could do a lot here, although other countries should not be excused. The United States announced $200 billion worth of deals with UAE that, you know, there are allegations against the Emirates in terms of their involvement in this conflict. They deny any involvement, but what pressure do you believe that both The United States and other countries can put on countries like the UAE to try and really stop whatever they are doing in order to affect the crisis that's on the ground now in sudden.

Tom Fletcher (11:27)

Well, I think the United States is playing a very energized role right now in trying to stop this conflict. And I'm in daily contact with Dr. Massad Boulos from President Trump's team, who is incredibly engaged alongside the quad, the Saudis, the Egyptians and the Emiratis to try to find ways to get the guns to fall silent. And I think that's hugely welcome. It's a level of engagement we've not seen in recent months, and I hope it brings results in terms of the arms getting in. I've been very clear that there must be accountability for the people who fire the weapon, for the people who give the order to fire the weapon, and that anyone providing arms to this conflict right now should take a long, hard look at themselves in the mirror. The last thing Sudan needs right now is more guns and bullets. It needs food and medicine and water and peace.

Paula Newton (12:22)

And as you noted, President Trump has said himself that they are more engaged. And I'm sure many will be relieved to hear that that is the same message you are getting behind the scenes. We do want to turn to Gaza now, and as you mentioned, you have been in and out of Gaza as well since the ceasefire. We've seen the video. Heavy storms and flooding have absolutely devastated the tent camps. With winter approaching, how concerned are you that thousands of families there will not survive the coming months?

Tom Fletcher (12:52)

I'm very worried, obviously, and we're just over halfway through the 60 day plan that I outlined in response to the ceasefire deal. Hugely welcome ceasefire deal that President Trump got. And we're seeing a real surge in aid. We're getting much, much more in. We're getting millions of meals out there, we're standing up the health sector again and we're getting tens of thousands of tents in. That's a real improvement on where we were 32, 33 days ago. But it's just not enough. And particularly seeing these heavy rains, we need all the crossings open. We've got more tents we can get in. We've got a pipeline of supplies of crucial winterization kits, the clothing and the fuel that people need to survive the winter. We can get all that in if those crossings are open and we're allowed to deliver at scale. We've only got three of the six crossings open right now. And then we also need the whole of the humanitarian community allowed the Access, because we rely hugely on our NGO partners that do crucial, crucial work inside Gaza, and they're not currently getting the access alongside us that they need, and we need them to have.

Paula Newton (13:57)

And so, Tom, can we quantify this a little bit? I mean, we had heard 600 trucks a day. Apparently only about 150 are entering. And yet you say that the influx is significant. So how many are getting in? And as you said, the bottleneck is then the actual entrances, in terms of the entrances that you can use to actually get the aid into Gaza. So it's both.

Tom Freston (14:20)

Yeah.

Tom Fletcher (14:20)

I mean, so we are getting far more trucks than we were before. It varies from day to day. But we're trying to hit across the sector the targets that were set in that peace agreement, in the deal that was announced in Sharm el Sheikh. But so it's the pipeline, but it's also the impediments to the NGOs that they're facing. And it's also just the scale that we need to get in. We need to get those other three crossings open. Allenby Bridge and from Jordan, Absolutely crucial lifeline for our suppliers. Still closed at the moment. And I know from my daily contacts with the White House on this file how hard they are working to get those convoys moving at the scale that we need, but we need that sustained pressure.

Paula Newton (15:02)

Yeah. They have certainly noted that they are engaged on that file as well. Tom Fletcher, really grateful to you, especially as you are just out of Sudan. And we will continue to follow developments. Appreciate it.

Tom Fletcher (15:14)

Thank you, Paula.

Paula Newton (15:17)

And now to President Trump's dramatic shift on the Jeffrey Epstein files. Now, in a post on his website, he urged Republicans to vote to release the files and move on from what he's calling a, quote, Democratic hoax. Now, it marks a dramatic turnaround for the president, and it comes as some Epstein survivors make a public push to try and convince House Republicans to vote to release the files. Here's a clip from their very powerful PSA.

Sarah McLachlan (15:46)

I was 14 years old. I was 16 years old.

Paula Newton (15:49)

I was 16, 17, 14 years old. This is me. This was me.

Sarah McLachlan (15:54)

This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein.

Paula Newton (15:56)

This is me when I met Jeffrey Epstein. It's time to bring the secrets out of the shadows.

Sarah McLachlan (16:01)

It's time to shine a light into the darkness.

Paula Newton (16:06)

Stephen Collinson joins me from Washington. And, Stephen, I'm grateful that those women are courageous enough to put a human face on everything we talk about, because right now, this is of huge political concern for where you are. What do you make of the president's reversal on all of this. You know, at first he said it was a hoax. Now he's encouraging them to release the files. This is after months of, you know, him trying to break the party ranks on this.

Stephen Collinson (16:32)

Yeah. And that was the reason when this came out on his truth social media. Social media account last night, it was quite a shock and it really reverberated across Washington. I think the most likely explanation is that the President reasoned that he was about to suffer a humiliating political defeat. We've had through the weekend, Republicans who support this bill to open the files, saying that they expect multiple, perhaps tens or even up to 100 Republicans to repudiate the President and vote in the House to open these files. Now at least the President can turn around and say, well, I wanted this vote too. So it is not a public shattering of his authority. Even though this is hugely unusual, it's unprecedented, really, across the span of Trump's two White House terms, for him to be led by the Republican conference in the House. He, of course, has had an iron grip on his party and his party's base. So this is something that's a very interesting political development. Now, the question is, does this get to opening those files that those victims hope to see? I think that is very much up in the air. This may well be a tactic by the President that doesn't in the end represent a massive change of his position and his desire not to see those files released.

Paula Newton (17:56)

So can you take us through this, Stephen, in terms of what the possible endgame might be for the President? And a lot of this might actually move over to the Senate. Right. We had Senate leadership to say that today that they didn't know if they were going to put a vote on the floor on this.

Stephen Collinson (18:11)

Yeah. I think the question now is whether there is a big enough vote in the House to change the politics in the Senate, to make it almost impossible for the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, not to bring this up? And would there then be sufficient Republican support to get to the 60 vote filibuster threshold that would pass the bill and then get it to President Trump's desk? Then technically, at least, he could say that he's going to veto this. That would send it back to the Congress. It would need a 2/3 majority in both Houses to override that. But the question here is almost moot, though. The President keeps telling us that he is the head, titular head of the Justice Department in the United States, of the justice system. If he wanted these files to come out, he doesn't really have to wait for Congress to authorize it. So that is the reason why a lot of people believe that this is a tactical retreat by the president and it doesn't represent a full shift of his position. But, you know, I was listening to one of the victims on CNN last week, and she said that the political ground here is shifting at such a rate that no one really knows how this is going to end up, because she said, you know, no one would have thought a year ago that Prince Andrew wouldn't be a prince. Of course, his own relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has come under scrutiny. So I think this is one of those political crises that does tend to create its own momentum. So it's difficult to predict from here what will happen.

Paula Newton (19:46)

And Marjorie Taylor Greene, perhaps is the one person who noticed the political ground shifting before others. Again, a huge MAGA supporter. What does the story there? I mean, she was this MAGA superstar the president has now called her Wacky Marjorie and worse, Marjorie Traitor Greene.

Stephen Collinson (20:05)

Yeah. When she first came to Washington after winning her seat in the 2020 election, she was almost seen as more Trumpy than Trump. She was a massive supporter of Trump. She stood with him all through his legal problems when he was out of office, traveled with him in 2024. On the campaign, she's split with him over the Epstein issue. But it's not just that. She's been criticizing him for the last few weeks on the cost of healthcare in the United States, on the price of groceries, the cost of living energy. She has been making the case that Donald Trump, the architect of the MAGA movement and America first, no longer stands for those principles, as much as many of his supporters would like to see. She's criticized his trips to Asia, to the Middle east, to Europe, his attempts to win the Nobel Peace Prize. She says she wants him to park Air Force One in the United States and focus purely on domestic politics. And I think this isit's just a hint right now, but you're seeing a few Republican lawmakers start to think about what their own political futures will look like in the MAGA movement and the Republican Party when Donald Trump is no longer leading it. And I think that is the most interesting thing that really underlies not just the Epstein issue, but Marjorie Taylor Greene's really interesting comments.

Paula Newton (21:33)

You know, and as I said before, she seems to have recognized that the political ground was shifting earlier than anyone else and after those victories for the Democrats. Right. That recent victory has given many people, even in the MAGA movement, pause. You've done an excellent job on bringing us right up to speed on what is an incredibly complicated story. Stephen Collinson for us. Grateful to you. Thanks and stay with us. We will be right back with more news after the book.

Walter Isaacson (22:06)

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

Stephen Collinson (22:10)

You know, my dad, from the very.

Tom Freston (22:11)

Beginning, he's realizing that I have absolutely.

Stephen Collinson (22:15)

No understanding of social interaction or of someone else's emotions.

Walter Isaacson (22:19)

News Nation anchor Leland Vittert, he was diagnosed with autism at a young age. It was a time when the idea of autism existing on a spectrum didn't even exist. He decided to write about it.

Paula Newton (22:31)

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever.

Walter Isaacson (22:34)

You get your podcasts.

Paula Newton (22:42)

So more than three decades after her breakout, Sarah McLachlan is experiencing a remarkable new chapter in her career. After an 11 year wait, she's back with a new album of original songs. She's on tour again and she's even up for induction into the Songwriters hall of Fame. And a new Hulu documentary also revisits her trailblazing creation of an all female artist festival, Lilith Fair. Now she's stateside for a month of shows. And I spoke with her about music activism and what still fuels her after all these years. Welcome to the program.

Sarah McLachlan (23:22)

Thank you.

Paula Newton (23:24)

We do want to start with what's new. Let's start with what's new. Better. Broken is new. It's your latest album and your first in more than a decade. So tell us why this album, these songs give us some insight into your passion for this project.

Sarah McLachlan (23:41)

Well, yeah, it's been 11 years since my last record. And these are basically songs about my life. They're sort of postcards of certain periods of time. I mean, music and writing is extremely cathartic for me. So it's a lot of my, I guess, angst and frustrations and sadness. And just writing is a way of sorting through a lot of the challenges that I faced in my life and sort of finding a place to put it, you know. That being said, I'm in a great place in my life now. I'm really happy. Like is very easy. I just finished, I Finally finished the 30th anniversary falling Taurus Ecstasy tour that I was supposed to finish last year, but I got a couple of wicked viruses, lost my voice for months and had to go on vocal rest. And actually this whole winter I was unsure whether I would actually be able to sing again. So that was a bit stressful. But just finished that Canadian leg up and I got a couple days at home and I'm coming back to starting in D.C. so I'm very excited About Exactly.

Paula Newton (24:48)

You are in the United States, in fact, this entire week, and they are going to get quite a treat, the fans. And I will say, when you say it's cathartic, I can speak as someone who listens to your music. It's cathartic for so many that listen to your songs. And I want to get to a new one. It's called Gravity, and I call it. I'm taking some creative license here. I call it an adult child's lullaby. Let's listen for a moment.

Sarah McLachlan (25:12)

You can hide away hold your heart obey I know you want to be.

Tom Fletcher (25:18)

Beart and break and break your heart.

Sarah McLachlan (25:25)

I will be like gravity O is true I won't give up on you.

Paula Newton (25:40)

Oh, so lovely to hear that you've been open about the fact that that's about a painful time in your relationship with your eldest daughter. All patched up now, you're glad to report, you know, many of your songs are about relationships, but how is this song different from others that you've written and performed?

Sarah McLachlan (26:00)

Well, I think this is one of the most vulnerable songs I've ever written, and certainly because it's about my relationship with my child, it's just the whole thing was very, very fraught. And I was actually tentative to, you know, to put it out because I wanted to make sure she was okay with it. It's one thing when you talk about your own feelings about a certain issue, but when you bring somebody else into a very public realm about a very private matter, there, you know, there needs to be discussions about it. And I talked to my daughter a lot about it, and she was like, no, I want people to know about this. I think it's really important, especially because of the work that we did and how much that helped, because I think that can help other people as well. And I do think it's important for all of us to talk about hard things that we've been through, because I think it allows other people to feel less alone because we all go through it. It's tough being a parent, and kids these days are really struggling with social media, with the way the world is, and they don't have the same life experience that we have to know that this is cyclical. And I mean, it is crazy making right now for sure, for all of us. But, you know, it's just. It's tough. And being able to talk openly about all of our struggles and how we've overcame them, I think is really important.

Paula Newton (27:33)

Yeah. And I think as a mother of adult children, I think so many parents out there can really relate to that and the fact that you've come through it and that the song can be helpful to everyone in doing that. With these songs. With Better Broken, I am wondering how they differ from your early lyrics and your collaborations, because, you know, the soundtrack that you have given us for so many decades now. I mean, so many of us play it on repeat. We walk through the streets of big cities. We are in front of lakes and oceans listening to it. So I am wondering how your songwriting has changed and maybe it hasn't.

Sarah McLachlan (28:11)

I mean, I would hope that it's evolved. I think as I've gotten older, hopefully my revelations and my insights about myself have slowly inched forward. You know, I do find that I fall back on similar themes. As you said, I write a lot about relationships, and I think, you know, we all have patterns in our. In our lives, some of which we need to overcome. And I notice patterns in my songwriting, and I notice patterns in my. In my relationships. And part of the writing is allowing me to see those patterns and going, oh, okay. These are things I want to continue to work on and change. But I think I've become. I hope I've become more open and have edited myself less. I think this album is probably one of the most vulnerable records I've written. You know, gravity is one of the songs. Wilderness as well, is another song that's very storytelling and. And very, you know, very kind of harsh and. And bare for me, because, you know, that was a time for me that was incredibly. There was so much shame and so much vulnerability in there. And I sing it now, and there's a sense of strength and pride, and I think that's where Better Broken came from. This. This sense of resilience that we. You know, we go through these hard things and we have to pick ourselves back up and find a way to move forward and use those things to. To learn and grow and become better and stronger.

Paula Newton (29:53)

And I know for so many people, your songs actually give them a lot of resilience. And listening to the. On the COVID of your new album, you know, I looked at the picture, and I think it's a stunning picture. By the way, you're both defiant and, I think, a bit mischievous in your expression on the COVID photo. Am I reading too much into it? Did I nail it? Is it something in between? I mean. Cause I want to ask you, what did get you back in that studio? It had been more over a decade.

Sarah McLachlan (30:22)

Yeah, well, I had been writing on and off the whole time. I mean, life got in the Way I had two teenage daughters, I went through, you know, a year of real struggle with my, my eldest child. I've been, you know, continuing to fundraise off the side of my desk for my free music schools and, and I continued to do some shows as well. So there was just a lot of things that kind of took me away from music for a while. And I think I definitely had some trepidation of getting back into the game because I know full well how much it takes to promote a record, which means leaving for a lot of time. And, and, and I also thought if it's my last record, I really want to try something different. So it took me a while to get up the guts to, you know, go find somebody to, to help me with this project. And meeting Tony berg and Will McClellan was such a gift because, you know, within a week of being in the studio with them for the first time, I was completely re engaged and recharged and went, you know, in my own mind going, why would I think this is my last record? This is so much fun. I love doing this.

Paula Newton (31:28)

I am so glad to hear that. And I'm sure many people listening here are as well. We do want to take you a little bit into your past and for those who don't know, Lilith Fair Building a Mystery, it's a new documentary about Lilith Fair itself. Arguably, and I'll paraphrase it here, one of, you know, your most worthy accomplishments. I would say you founded it in the late 1990s and all female Music Festival and really on the conviction that women could headline and carry a major concert tour. I want to ask you about how you feel about this triumph in the end. How do you feel about it now when you look back on it?

Sarah McLachlan (32:10)

I feel incredibly proud to have been part of it and that we all stood together and really, you know, shifted the dial and created some change. Not just in that moment, but I think there's, there's a real legacy that has continued. You know, there's so many young people I've met over the years who have come up to me and said, that was my first concert. You all showed me that I could do and be anything I wanted. I'm now running a corporation and I'm bringing other women alongside me. I'm supporting women. And I think, you know, that's one of the most powerful, lasting messages of that film and of that time is that when women support women, when we carry each other and lift each other up instead of tearing each other down, success comes and success looks like there's many different facets of it. And I love in particular right now that movie is out there and as just a reminder that when we choose to stand together, we can create real change. And it's powerful.

Paula Newton (33:10)

And speaking of that change, though it's more than a generation later, do you feel that it still has the same resonance? Has it diminished? Because as you know, as both an artist and a mother, your daughters and mine, they live in different political realities today in 2025. I'm not sure you could have even imagined them in the late 90s.

Sarah McLachlan (33:30)

Yeah, I definitely think that, you know, the film itself has a great message and I think, I hope that there is resonance today and I hope it encourages women to continue to stand up and support each other to create change in the world. You know, I think there's a number of lasting legacies. I mean, all I made from the Lilith I took and put into the foundation, which continues to support youth at risk to have music education in their lives. So, yes, I think it continues in quiet ways and loud ways. Artists like Brandi Carlisle are continuing to champion female artists and support other musicians. You know, I see it all over the place. Taylor Swift changing the face of the world and bringing along all, predominantly all female artists to open up for her as well. So I do, I see the shift continuing.

Paula Newton (34:24)

Continuing. Not over yet, but continuing. I have to say, I've always loved the COVID of Rolling stone magazine in 1998. They called you the flower child with a filthy mind. Tell us, Sarah McLachlan. It's catchy. But was it true? Is it still true? Do you have a filthy mind?

Sarah McLachlan (34:42)

I don't think I have a filthy mind. I think at the time I was very, I was interested in shocking people a little bit more than I am now. I wasn't. I, you know, I, I, I think people assumed that I was this quiet waif who, you know, sat, sat in, you know, the attic reading Sylvia Plath and drinking red wine with candles at 2 o' clock in the morning. That really is not, it's not who I am at all. I'm very happy and optimistic person. So I think, you know, I always was attempting to dispel some of those myths.

Paula Newton (35:12)

But, but getting back to what you, you know, a lot of people would say, okay, that's a badass cover, you're a badass musician. In the end of the day, I would say you probably had to be more of a pain in the ass, right, just to have the fortitude to see some of these things through Like Lilith Fair.

Sarah McLachlan (35:27)

Well, I was extremely stubborn. I always have been. And I rage against injustice. And it seemed ludicrous when people said, you can't put two women on the same bill. It will not succeed. I'm like, well, I've already been doing that. And so let's put 11 on the same bill and screw you. We'll show you. And we did.

Paula Newton (35:51)

You did indeed. And left us with quite a body of work that continues, we're happy to say. As you said, you were touring in the United States this week, continuing on with your tour. Such a pleasure. Sarah McLachlan, thank you. Appreciate it.

Sarah McLachlan (36:06)

My pleasure. Thank you.

Paula Newton (36:09)

Clearly, Sarah McLachlan still enjoying her artistry. Stay with CNN. We will be right back after the break. Next to MTV, the first ever 24 hour cable network dedicated solely to music videos. Now it was launched in the 80s. It's brought hit songs to the living rooms of audiences right across the globe, revolutionizing music entertainment. Now under Paramount and competing against online streaming platforms, MTV is shutting down its European music channels by the end of the year, bringing that chapter of pop culture to a close. Tom Freston is a co founder of the once beloved video channel and former CEO of Viacom. And his new memoir, Unplugged reflects on the birth of MTV and his career. Here he is with Walter Isaacson.

Walter Isaacson (37:13)

Thank you, Paula and Tom Preston, welcome to the show.

Tom Freston (37:16)

Great to be here, Walter, Nice to see you.

Walter Isaacson (37:19)

You know, I'm going to cut right to the chase. There's just an amazing scene in this book, Unplugged. And I think you know which one it is. It's in a sauna and it sort of sets the whole tone for the book. Tell me about that scene.

Tom Freston (37:32)

Well, I had gone to STAD at the invitation of David Bowie. We were recruiting rock stars basically to be in our I want my MTV campaign. This was early on in our existence, probably 1983, and we were doing this campaign to try and get our fans to demand their MTV so cable operators would carry us. So we had recruited Mick Jagger and Pete Townsend and my assignment was to get David Bowen. And I called his manager and she said, well, you know, David's skiing in Staad and if you want to come over here, he'll do it. So got on a plane with a 35 millimeter crew. We flew to Zurich, took a train to Staad. Long haul. We went out on the slopes and David was there looking great. He was in his let's dance phase. He had sort of figured out what he wanted to do. He was going to ski down this hill and do a swoosh and say, I want my mtv, I want my mtv. So we did a few runs and then it really went smoothly. He's quite good at that. We would then take it back and you know, post produce it. So put the logo there and so forth. But at the end he said, well, why don't you come take a sauna with me at the Palace Hotel, which was the Grande Dame in Staad. And I was staying in basically like a cut above a youth hostel. I went back and, and told my compatriots and the crew, I said, you know, see you losers later. I'm going to go to take a day of sauna with David Bowie in the spa at the Palace Hotel. And when I show up there, you know, get down, I have a towel around me and we both walk into the sauna. It's really steamy. There's one other guy in there, he's up like on a shelf basically up in the back. And it turns out it's Paul McCartney.

Walter Isaacson (39:24)

Well, wait, here's one reason I asked you to tell that story. Because in normal hands this would be place dropping, you know, Stott and Sir Paul McCarthy and name dropping and everything else. But one of the things you say in the book is that by hitchhiking around being an adventurer you learned a sense of humility. And there's a self deprecating quality in the book that makes all these famous names and places become funny. As opposed to arrogant or name dropping.

Tom Freston (39:53)

Yeah, it wasn't being arrogant or name dropping, but those were the two guys of the whole sort of rock and roll pantheon that I was the most intimidated by. Normally I wasn't that starstruck, but I sat in the sauna and we kind of. They wanted to know about MTV because neither of them had really seen it. We talked about this and that and threw some water on the rocks and for a half hour little, little Tom from my home, Rohayton, Connecticut was in there with these two huge stars and they couldn't have been nicer. It was a great experience and probably one of my greatest stories of all my years there.

Walter Isaacson (40:27)

So wait, let's get from Rohden, Connecticut, Suburban kid growing up in a very conventional thing. How all of a sudden, forget about getting to Stod. How all of a sudden were you hitchhiking around the world and doing all these adventures? Where did that Risk gene come from?

Tom Freston (40:44)

Well, one that had sort of a pent up desire to travel. My dad never Wanted to go anywhere. So we really went any nowhere as a kid. I went off to college and learned how to, you know, in those days, you could hitchhike. So I found this freedom on the road. And I also. I had sort of fallen in love with a literature of the beats where, you know, experience was the thing and you could travel and get out on the road. It's the great classroom. And I gradually built up confidence, like I could kind of go anywhere. I was working in an ad agency, and they were going to assign me to Charmin toilet paper, of all things, which wasn't a pleasant. And I had a moment. I said, man, I can't do this. I mean. But then this girl called me from Paris, who I knew, an old girlfriend. She says, forget it. You can't sell toilet paper. Come with me. I'm going to cross the Sahara. And that sounded like a good idea. I quit my job a week. I was on a plane a week later.

Walter Isaacson (41:36)

And you say you got off the ferry in Tangier. You're right. And as soon as I disembarked, I was hit with a high. I would chase the rest of my life the peculiar joy of disorientation. Explain that one to me.

Tom Freston (41:51)

Well, you know, you could say it's a bit of culture shock. I had never really been anywhere before that seemed that unusual. And when you're in a place where you don't know where you are, essentially everything seems a lot more vivid and alive. You know, you hear the call to prayer and you think you're in some kind of time capsule. So I love the feeling of being uncomfortable and then having to adjust to this new altitude. And I would spend a lot of my life in places in what we used to call the Third World, traveling around and being in environments that were radically different from everything I had grown up and been around, you know, beforehand.

Walter Isaacson (42:32)

So how did MTV get started?

Tom Freston (42:34)

Well, it got started with that Warner Communications and American Express had a joint venture called Warner amex. And cable TV was just getting really started. The notion was, rather than be a broadcaster, we're going to have specialized channels for all these niches for specialized audiences. And we were sort of the tip of the spear in that group as cable was being laid across the country. And it was, you know, cable didn't really reach the big cities, you know, until years later. But in the early 80s, that's when these. These brands that we know today, like ESPN and mtv, really got formed and started. And it was all very entrepreneurial and seat of your pants and really Done on a low cost.

Walter Isaacson (43:17)

MTV was not just a business. It was actually a cultural revolution. It just changed the way music was. When you helped found it and then ran it, did you see it as just another cable business enterprise, or did you see there was some sort of mission there?

Tom Freston (43:33)

Oh, no, we were on a mission. I mean, everyone who worked there, and we worked for very little money. We were, like on a crusade. We wanted to sweep the nation and then ultimately the world with this new musical invention that we thought was irresistible. We believed in the power of the music. Music was a real powerful force. At the time, there had been nothing like this on television. People had never really seen music videos. So it was like a whole new visual vocabulary we were throwing at people. And it's hard to think today how revolutionary MTV was in its earlier years, but it really was unlike anything people had seen before on television. So people would spend untold hours watching mtv, and it really created, really generated a creative renaissance in the video business and the music business. And it became a real force. We became like the biggest radio station in the nation, and then we drove it internationally. We became the world's first really international network. CNN was international, but they were mostly in hotels. We actually had 50 versions in different languages set up in different countries that really went out to people's homes.

Walter Isaacson (44:41)

Well, I remember when MTV would just create hits. Somebody like myself say, okay, this just came out. I'm going to get it. Nowadays, with so much niche media and streaming and everything else, how has that changed the way music hits can be created?

Tom Freston (44:57)

It makes it really difficult. I mean, there's more people making music that seems less remarkable. There used to be 40 record companies. Now there's like two and a half record companies, basically. And there is no monoculture. There is no massive medium.

Tom Fletcher (45:13)

I mean.

Tom Freston (45:14)

I mean, Taylor Swift is really the exception to the case. A couple of others that really cross over to different demographics, it's hard to discover new music. I mean, if you're younger, you get it through word of mouth. But if you're an older person in your 30s, 40s, 50s, it's hard to really know where new music's coming from. People tend to go onto Spotify and listen to artists and get into this kind of algorithm. And you don't really get exposure to different types of. Other than the type you started listening to in the first place.

Walter Isaacson (45:44)

One of the other things you helped start was, of course, Comedy Central. And that launched the careers of so many people like Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, I think John Oliver, Jimmy Kimmel, perhaps. Bill Maher, too. And all of them became very much in some ways political, defining not just humor, but the politics of it. I think south park was part of that whole thing.

Tom Freston (46:07)

South Park? Yeah, yeah.

Walter Isaacson (46:09)

And it's part of now the cultural resistance, both of the Trump administration and other things. Are you surprised that comedians have emerged as sort of the resistance?

Tom Freston (46:21)

Yes. You know, going back to the late 60s and early 70s when there was resistance to the war and to Richard Nixon, it was largely musicians who kind of led the charge and. And certain cultural figures. It certainly wasn't comedians. Comedians then really didn't have this type of edge. Right now, you don't hear anything from musicians. I mean, no one's standing up at these comedians. They are the front line. And I really gotta say, all of these people, the leaders of this new line of resistance, throw Dave Chappelle in there also, all got their TV star on Comedy Central. Amy Schumer's another one. And they have a big impact. I mean, you saw the impact they had and the. The kind of following they've been able to establish. When you saw ABC drop Jimmy Kimmel and had to put it back on.

Walter Isaacson (47:09)

Yeah, but let's drill down on that. Are you worried about the pressure? I mean, ABC had to drop Jimmy Kimmel partly because of the administration, some blowback on politics. Are you fearful that we're getting to suppress the type of free speech that makes comedy so important?

Tom Freston (47:26)

Yes and no. I mean, in this Jimmy Kimmel instance, I mean, I think in the calculus of determining abc, determining what to do, they left out one cohort, which was the audience. And I just know from experience from the early MTV days when we used to be thrown off cable systems for one reason or another, the fans would always demand it to get back. Sometimes we would fan the flames of their discontent. But, you know, they're very powerful. And you saw in the case here, you know, they canceled, I don't know, a million and a half streaming subscription subscriptions for Disney. They did a lot of reputational and economic damage. So you can't just. I don't think it's that easy. Yes, you could smother if you really want to be ruthless, but these comedians, it's going to be hard to suppress them unless. Unless they start carting away these people and sending them to El Salvador. I don't see that they're going to shut them up.

Walter Isaacson (48:20)

You know, throughout this book, I watch you as sort of rebellious against all the corporate overlords you have to deal with. With when you're at mtv, Comedy Central, dealing with Viacom and Paramount. And then, as if the good Lord had a perverse sense of humor, suddenly you become the CEO. What was it like moving from being a rebellious division head to somebody who had to be a CEO of.

Tom Freston (48:44)

Well, it was a change for me because running MTV Networks, where every one of our networks was sort of out of the mainstream and on the sidelines and, and sort of erratic and experimental, and now I'm having to deal, rather deal with creative people and animators. It was a place where everything I love kind of came together. But when I got elevated to CEO of Viacom, all of a sudden, now I'm dealing with bankers, I'm dealing with Wall Street, I'm dealing with earning calls, a whole bunch of other things. It was a necessary step. I mean, someone said, well, you can't stay a child forever. But. But, you know, it seemed to be something I liked more. But I was able to kind of get going and get in the groove. And I thought it'd be a way to kind of improve my skill set and move my career ahead. But I only had eight months at it before I was cashiered.

Walter Isaacson (49:35)

Sherry Redstone just sold your old company Paramount and settled lawsuits with Donald Trump in order to get him through and stuff. Tell me what you think of the way she handled that.

Tom Freston (49:50)

Well, I was not a fan. I mean, she really bent the knee and almost started a trend that we saw affect a lot of other, you know, media consolidations and things. I think she felt the drumbeat of this thing coming, which if she didn't close this deal by October 1st, she would have to pay the Ellisons, David Ellison and his father, $400 million kill fee, which is a lot of money, which would have put an already suffering Paramount into more of a death spiral. And the only way she was going to get it done and pass the ftc, FCC was to be nice to Donald Trump. And that's what she did. And in the process compromised what had been one of the great television news organizations that the country had ever seen. So it was a disappointment, big disappointment to the people who worked there.

Walter Isaacson (50:46)

Looking at today's cultural landscape with, you know, streaming wars, algorithm driven content.

Sarah McLachlan (50:57)

We.

Walter Isaacson (50:57)

Don'T have shared cultural things like MTV creating a hit on any given week. What is that going to do to storytelling and creativity?

Tom Freston (51:07)

Well, good storytelling, if you're a good storyteller, you can still have a hit. I mean, we see that now. There's hits on these various streaming services. The problem is, as a consumer, there's so many more choices than there ever used to be. But if you have a hit, which is really the rare thing, word will get around and more and more people will watch it. But it's harder to have a hit record, it's harder to have a hit TV show, and, and it's not as if people aren't looking, but the attention spans are short. Social media is a bigger factor. You know, people keep saying how interesting Tik Tok is. And if you ever spend any time on Tik Tok, maybe I'm just talking like an old person there. There doesn't seem to be a lot to engage you there other than that quick sensationalism and moving along. But if you have something good and you're in the mood, people will sit down and watch a long movie or watch it or, or spend 50 hours going through episodic television series.

Walter Isaacson (52:06)

Tom Freston, thank you so much for joining us.

Tom Freston (52:09)

It's good. Walter, nice to talk to you. Thank you.

Paula Newton (52:13)

And finally for us, he's known as Yuka and he had been frozen for almost 40,000 years. And now this juvenile woolly mammoth's RNA is the oldest to ever be sequenced by scientists. It was extracted from mummified leg tissue that had been extremely well preserved. I know it doesn't look like it, but it was for millennia. In Siberian permafrost, researchers are using the RNA to figure out which of the mammoth's genes were active at the time of its death. An amazing feat, really, that now opens up a new avenue of scientific research into the past. And that's it for now. If you ever miss our show, remember you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. I want to thank you for watching and goodbye from New York. The holiday season is here and CNN is your VIP pass to unique gifts at the your best prices. From expert recommendations to can't miss deals, we've wrapped it all up for you.

Sarah McLachlan (53:24)

Shop holiday gifting now at underscore.

Tom Freston (53:27)

Com.