US ramps up pressure on Venezuela, Snubs Europe

Summary

Amanpour – US Ramps Up Pressure on Venezuela, Snubs Europe

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN International)
Host: Christiane Amanpour
Date: December 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode covers mounting US pressure on Venezuela as President Trump openly considers military strikes, and analyzes the crumbling alliances of Nicolas Maduro across Latin America. Christiane Amanpour interviews Colombia’s former president Ivan Duque, probing regional support for intervention. The episode also discusses the US Secretary of State skipping a pivotal NATO summit amidst stalled Russia-Ukraine peace talks, with analysis from former US ambassador to NATO, Julianne Smith. Other segments include on-the-ground reporting from Hezbollah tunnels in Lebanon, reflections on the modern staging of Oedipus on Broadway, rebellious nuns defying convent bans, and a remembrance of playwright Tom Stoppard.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. US Pressure on Venezuela and Regional Realignment

Guest: Ivan Duque, former President of Colombia

[01:34–11:03]

• Maduro Losing Support:
  Amanpour opens by highlighting the significant political shift in Latin America. Recent elections in Honduras and St. Vincent & the Grenadines ousted Maduro’s allies, isolating the Venezuelan dictator.

  "The Venezuelan dictator seems to be losing friends and influence as President Trump ... warned strikes on that country will begin, quote, soon..." – Christiane Amanpour [01:34]

• Trump’s Rhetoric and Regional Tensions:
  President Trump signals readiness for military strikes not just in Venezuela but potentially in Colombia, citing narcotics as justification.

  "We're going to start doing those strikes on land, too. You know, the land is much easier." – Ivan Duque, quoting Trump [01:57]

• Colombian Perspective:
  Duque supports a US-led "comprehensive interdiction campaign" and advocates for regime change in Venezuela, citing past bipartisan anti-narcotic collaborations between Colombia and the US.

  "I think this is a very important and decisive operation that needs to be seen as ... comprehensive." – Ivan Duque [03:05]
  Duque criticizes his successor, President Petro, for aligning with Maduro: "If not, I think it will only make Colombia an accomplice of the Maduro structure, which I think is a reckless behavior from President Petro." – Ivan Duque [04:32]

• Diverging Opinions Within Venezuela:
  Amanpour points to a Bloomberg poll: only 34% of Venezuelans support US intervention, while diaspora support is far higher at 64%.

  "So there's clearly a lot of agita outside and ... less than half the people support it from the inside." – Christiane Amanpour [05:09]

• Comparisons to US Interventions Elsewhere:
  Duque draws parallels between Maduro and former dictators like Milosevic, arguing for robust US action. When challenged about Iraq, he claims lessons have been learned and sees Venezuela as a case for targeted rather than occupation-style intervention.

  "I don't think the US is thinking in Venezuela as an occupation operation as it did in the case of Iraq." – Ivan Duque [07:31]

• On US Double Standards:
  Amanpour questions Trump’s controversial pardon of former Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez, convicted for drug trafficking.

  "He had been sentenced to 45 years ... for taking bribes ... and he's now being pardoned. Can you make head or tails of that?" – Christiane Amanpour [08:45]
  "I just hope there can be a farther explanation from the legal adviser in the White House ..." – Ivan Duque [09:09]

• Shift Toward Conservative Governments:
  Discussion on ideological shifts in Latin America, with Duque arguing voters are now seeking technocratic, non-populist leadership:

  "People now prefer no more demagogues, but more pedagogues ..." – Ivan Duque [10:25]

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2. US Absence at NATO Amid Russia-Ukraine Stalemate

Guest: Julianne Smith, former US Ambassador to NATO

[12:22–20:03]

• US Skips NATO Summit:
  For the first time since 1999, the US Secretary of State (Marco Rubio) skips a NATO foreign ministers meeting as peace talks with Russia stall.

  "Rubio opted not to join the foreign ministers meeting. Instead, he sent his deputy. This is extraordinarily uncommon..." – Julianne Smith [13:23]

• Putin’s Posturing:
  In response to recent Russia-NATO tensions, Putin claims:

  "We're not planning to go to war with Europe ... But if Europe suddenly wants to go to war with us ... we're ready right now." – Vladimir Putin (quoted by Ben Wiedemann) [14:25]
  Smith reads this as a "thinly veiled threat" and warns of classic Russian tactics aimed at undermining NATO unity.

• NATO Preparedness and US Role:
  Smith asserts that NATO is capable of defending its territory, but European military capabilities remain reliant on US involvement:

  "The alliance is still very much a transatlantic alliance, a project where America and Europe and Canada can come together to defend NATO territory." – Julianne Smith [16:12]

• Failed Peace Negotiations:
  Trump’s team, led by Kushner and Steve Wyckoff, repeatedly travels to Moscow without breakthrough, enduring symbolic snubs like hours-long waits.

  "Putin is playing for time ... at the end of the day, we don't see evidence that he's really ready to make any concessions." – Julianne Smith [18:15]
  Smith argues that Trump's negotiators lack experience: "This is serious business, and you need people who are familiar with the classic Russian plays, like leaving people to wait for many hours at the table." – Julianne Smith [19:58]

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3. Lebanon: Hezbollah Tunnels and Regional Tensions

Report: Ben Wiedemann

[20:55–25:03]

• Inside Hezbollah Tunnels:
  Ben Wiedemann tours Hezbollah tunnels in South Lebanon, now under Lebanese army control due to a year-old ceasefire.

  • 74 tunnels discovered
  • Seizures of weapons and troop reinforcements south of the Litani River
  • Evidence of kitchens, field hospitals, and extensive infrastructure

• Continued Strikes and Pressure:
  Israeli strikes on Hezbollah targets persist as US pressure mounts for Hezbollah’s disarmament by year’s end.

  "What matters is that Lebanon is under intense pressure from the United States to disarm Hezbollah before the end of this year. If it does not ... Israel will start the war all over again." – Ben Wiedemann [24:27]

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4. Oedipus on Broadway: Revisiting Ancient Tragedy

Guests: Lesley Manville & Mark Strong (Actors)

[25:41–32:07]

• Modern Political Parallels:
  The Robert Icke adaptation reframes the play as a contemporary political thriller—Oedipus is a landslide election winner.

  "Rob Icke ... makes the point that when this play was done originally, two and a half Thousand years ago, it would have been contemporary." – Mark Strong [26:48]

• The Core Love Story:
  The play’s emotional impact stems from the deep genuine relationship between Oedipus and Jocasta, with the audience sympathizing even as the tragic reality emerges.

  "There is a very strong love story in its core and it works because you want them to be together and they can't help themselves at the end." – Mark Strong [28:19]

• Truth and Consequence:
  The play explores themes of truth-seeking and its destructiveness, resonating with modern audiences’ relationships to fact and self-destruction.

  "It's been the downfall ... this man's need and search for the truth actually destroys everything that they have." – Christiane Amanpour [30:35]

  Memorable exchange:

  "Truth is a mother. XX." – Christiane Amanpour (referencing show merch) [30:27]
  "That says a lot about you." – Lesley Manville [30:29]

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5. Nuns, Technology, and Mutiny

[32:41–34:47]

• Modern and Historic Monastic Rebellions:
  Amanpour contrasts present-day Austrian nuns rebelling to keep social media, with her 1988 reporting on New Jersey Carmelites who barricaded themselves demanding traditional, tech-free living.

  Audio highlights:

  "We locked ourselves in the infirmary for fear that we would be physically ejected." – New Jersey nun (archival) [33:47]

  "The devil is at work and we have to combat it." – Parishioner (archival) [34:22]

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6. Tribute: Tom Stoppard Remembered

[36:00–38:07]

• Life, History, and Gratitude:
  Amanpour pays tribute to Stoppard, discussing his reticence to dwell on his hidden Jewish heritage and gratitude to his mother’s protective choices.

  "She'd got us to sanctuary ... we were being brought up happy and healthy ... she saved us." – Tom Stoppard (archival) [37:39]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US Strategy in Venezuela:
  "If Maduro keeps staying in power, what we're going to see is more migration, more narco trafficking, and more protection of terrorists in his soil. So it's not good for the hemisphere..." – Ivan Duque [07:31]
• On Russian Threats:
  "It seemed to be a very thinly veiled threat that Russia ... possibly willing to try and touch NATO territory." – Julianne Smith [14:43]
• On the Power of Ancient Drama:
  "You literally are just pulled forward into your seat and you just want to find out what happens..." – Christiane Amanpour [31:35]
• On Technology and Tradition in Religious Life:
  "The devil is at work and we have to combat it." – Parishioner, on New Jersey nuns' protest [34:22]
• On Family, Secrecy, and Survival:
  "She'd got us to sanctuary ... she saved us. So she was entitled." – Tom Stoppard [37:39]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34–11:03] – Duque on Venezuela, Colombia, US policy, intervention
• [12:22–20:03] – Julianne Smith on NATO, Russia, stalled peace talks
• [20:55–25:03] – Ben Wiedemann's report from Hezbollah tunnels, Lebanon
• [25:41–32:07] – Broadway Oedipus conversation with Manville & Strong
• [32:41–34:47] – Nuns: Old and New, Technology and Rebellion
• [36:00–38:07] – Tom Stoppard tribute

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains Amanpour’s signature blend of incisive, worldly questioning, combative yet respectful dialogue with controversial figures, and a globalist’s sweep of troubling and artful stories. The show’s language ranges from precise diplomatic analysis to the drama of live reporting and the introspection of personal legacy.

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This summary captures the episode’s urgent political stakes, pointed debates, human interest vignettes, and its thoughtful memorial to the world of letters.

Transcript

[Christian Amanpour]

Foreign.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Amanpour Hour. Here's where we're headed this week. Why are key Latin American nations supporting Trump as he openly mulls strikes on Venezuela? I asked Colombia's former president Ivan Duque, is it all over for Nicolas Maduro? Then another day, another US Snap up. This time, Secretary of State Rubio skips a NATO summit as peace talks with Russia stall. What could bring more success? Former U.S. ambassador to NATO Julianne Smith joins me.

[Julianne Smith]

This is serious business and you need people who are familiar with the classic Russian plays.

[Ben Wiedemann]

Also ahead goes in deep, deep into this mountain.

[Christian Amanpour]

A rare look inside the ruins of Hezbollah's tunnel as Israel continues pounding southern Lebanon.

And there's an audience. You literally are just pulled forward into your in your seat and you just want to find out what happens.

The Broadway play that's got audiences rooting for a son who marries his mother. No, really. I talked to Oedipus stars Leslie Manville and Mark Strong. Then a social media ban. They're having none of it. As the world delights in the rebellion of three octogenarian cloistered Catholics. From my archive, how new technology created a similar monastic mutiny in New Jersey, 1988.

[Julianne Smith]

The devil is at work and we.

[Christian Amanpour]

Have to combat it.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christian Amanpour in London. Well, it has been a very bad week for Nicolas Maduro in Latin America and the Caribbean. Elections in Honduras and St. Vincent and the Grenadines ousted his allies. The Venezuelan dictator seems to be losing friends and influence as President Trump. President Trump this week warned strikes on that country will begin, quote, soon we're.

[Ivan Duque]

Going to start doing those strikes on land, too. You know, the land is much easier.

[Christian Amanpour]

It's much easier. And we know the routes they take or if we think they're building mills.

[Ivan Duque]

For whether it's fentanyl or cocaine, anybody that's doing that and selling it into.

[Christian Amanpour]

Our country is subject to attack. So not necessarily just Venezuela.

[Ivan Duque]

No, not just Venezuela. I hear Colombia. The country of Colombia is making cocaine.

[Christian Amanpour]

Not just Venezuela. Colombia, too. Is the situation spiraling out of control? I ask Ivan Duque, the former president of Colombia, who's long called for regime change next door in Venezuela and who supports President Trump. Welcome to the program.

[Ivan Duque]

Thank you so much, Cristiano. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

[Christian Amanpour]

So you're joining me from Yale University where you're teaching. So you're seeing the American reaction and you know what's happening, obviously, in your own country and on your own continent. But how do you explain. I've said that you're a supporter of Trump's actions, that 53%, according to a poll, 53% of people across Latin America support US military intervention in Venezuela. That's according to Bloomberg Atlas Poll.

[Ivan Duque]

So I think this is a very important and decisive operation that needs to be seen as something that is comprehensive, as an interdiction campaign that we must believe will have a potential benefit for the region.

[Christian Amanpour]

Yeah. So look, I know that that's your position. It's a much more than an interdiction campaign because President Trump is actually sitting in the White House saying that he's going to bomb the mainland of Venezuela soon. And by the way, maybe even your country, Colombia, because he said you make cocaine. So are you not a little bit worried?

[Ivan Duque]

Well, Cristiane, as you know, we had during my administration a very close relationship with the United States, which was bipartisan, and it was also bicameral. We worked with President Trump, we worked with President Biden, and the previous administrations also worked with President Obama, with President Bush and President Clinton. It was very successful, that work that we had between Colombia and the US and we destroyed labs. We faced many of the kimpins of the cartels. In fact, I, for example, extradited Otto Niel to the United States, which was the most dangerous Quimpin after Pablo Escobar. So we had that kind of a relationship today. Sadly to say, because Petro has aligned with Maduro, we don't have that level of support. So I think this has created a lot of tension. I hope that President Petro can give it a second thought and not to keep on supporting Maduro and instead allow the US and our Colombian forces to keep on doing strategic strikes against the cartels. If not, I think it will only make Colombia an accomplice of of the Maduro structure, which I think is a reckless behavior from President Petro.

[Christian Amanpour]

Okay, so you're talking about your successor, who's from a very different party than you are, and you've just described his differences and your differences with his strategy. I want you to explain this to me because it's interesting. Within Venezuela, support for a US intervention is about 34%. According again to the same Bloomberg Atlas Poll, amongst Venezuelan diaspora, outside.

Support is 64%. So there's clearly a lot of agita outside and.

You know, less than half the people support it from the inside. Just tell me how you analyze that.

[Ivan Duque]

So is it good for the Venezuelan people to aus Maduro? Their response is yes. Is it good for the Region, obviously, yes. And I think the triggering a construction of a democratic system that is credible and based on the rule of law is something that is not only beneficial to Venezuela, but beneficial to the whole region. The United States historically played a very important role to depose Milosevic and take him to the international court systems which has worked in that specific case. But the United States has also undertaken operations against terrorist organizations. As you know, we saw the operation against Osama bin Laden, you saw the operation against Soleimani, you've seen the operations against isis. So I think there is a legal basis. And when people ask me do I believe there's going to be an invasion, I don't think this requires an invasion. I think there has to be an operation that will be supported by some people within the structure of power in Venezuela. But I think there has to be now a plan to construct a unity government, a transition framework that would allow the Venezuelans for the first time in 25 years to really enjoy democracy, the the economic freedoms and a credible rule of law system.

[Christian Amanpour]

But what I want to ask you also is you mentioned a whole bunch of instances and examples. You didn't mention Iraq, which was a case of intervention to depose under the COVID of, you know.

Wmd, which proved not to be the case. And as you know, it turned into a huge, huge issue. A debacle, some people say, with decades of backlash. Are you not slightly afraid what makes Venezuela different?

[Ivan Duque]

Well, I think also historically speaking, Cristiano, I think the United States has learned lessons from occupation operations. But I also have to say, and I know what I'm gonna say is controversial, but I think when you look at Iraq today, definitely is in a much better place than it was during Saddam Hussein's.

Now was a success, the operation in Iraq. Well, I think there are a lot of criticisms to be made, but there are also things to be applauded. But in this particular case, I don't think the US is thinking in Venezuela as an occupation operation as it did in the case of Iraq. I think there is a great room to create a unity government that would allow a transition for democracy and also for the implementation of a credible rule of lawless system. And if Maduro keeps his staying in power, what we're going to see is more migration, more narco trafficking, and more protection of terrorists in his soil. So it's not good for the hemisphere to allow Maduro to remain in office, specifically when he is an equivalent of Oslo, Vlad Milosevic in this region based on his human rights violation record.

[Christian Amanpour]

Yeah, I Mean, as you know, Milosevic was tried for genocide and so were his hench people, which is slightly different. But I understand what you're saying to an. But I also want to ask you about double standards and how we're meant to make sense of what the US Policy actually is. Because as you know, just this week, the former Honduran president, Juan Orlando Hernandez received a pardon from President Trump. Now, he had been sentenced to 45 years in prison in New York for taking bribes from what, drug traffickers who moved some 400 tons of cocaine through Honduras to the United States. I mean, can you make head or tails of that, Christian?

[Ivan Duque]

I don't know. What were the arguments?

[Christian Amanpour]

I know, but the facts are that, you know, what he was convicted of and he's now being pardoned.

[Ivan Duque]

Well, in this particular case, I just hope that there can be a farther explanation from the legal adviser in the White House on why that pardon was justified. Because as you know, those are not just decisions that come out of the president's mind. They have to be based on a study and rigorous study of the circumstances. So I just hope those things can be explained, but concrete. I just believe that it is a duty at this moment to keep on fighting the cartels, fight the Soles Cartel, announce Maduro, because I think that's the most important objective thinking on the whole security in the region. And let me just also say this. I think the best legacy that President Trump can contribute in defense of the Democratic Charter of the Americas is that working with all these administrations that defend democracy is that by, by the end of this term, we don't have more dictators in Latin America.

[Christian Amanpour]

You know, the politics are slightly changing in a wave across Latin America. They're becoming much more conservative than perhaps they were a few years ago. Do you think that's part of it? And by the way, when you say you hope the US can remove dictators, as you know, the US Historical experience with intervention in Latin America has been to introduce and to prop up military dictatorships.

[Ivan Duque]

Well, you know, Cristiane, I think we've all learned from the historical lessons. And I think when you mentioned about this ideological changes in governments, I think more than ideological, I think people have realized that populism, demagoguery, and also polarization just for the stake of winning elections is not working. And that's why people now prefer no more demagogues, but more pedagogues that will tell the people that in order to accomplish results, we all have to contribute. And we'll have to contribute with sound policies with sound government and technocratic administrations.

[Christian Amanpour]

Coming up later on the show, the US Secretary of state skips a NATO foreign minister meeting for the first time since 1999. What is going on? I asked former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Julianne Smith. Also ahead, the hit play which asks, is it okay to marry your own mother if you don't know. Actors Lesley Manville and Mark Strong explain why Oedipus still resonates after more than two millennia.

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we.

[Ben Wiedemann]

Explore grief and loss in all its complexities. Nick Cave is a legendary Australian singer, songwriter and author. His 15 year old son Arthur died 10 years ago in a fall off a cliff in Brighton, England.

[Ivan Duque]

It's a condition of being for me, grief.

[Ben Wiedemann]

Nick has authored a number of books. His latest is Faith, Hope and Carnage, a conversational memoir written with Sean o'. Hagan.

[Christian Amanpour]

We are all creatures of loss.

[Ivan Duque]

We are all suffering in our own.

[Ben Wiedemann]

Ways, talking grief, building community. New episodes of all There is come out Tuesday nights. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christian Amanpour]

Welcome back to the program. Hope is not a strategy proven again in vivid Technicolor when President Trump's main negotiators this week again went to to the Kremlin hoping to finally move Putin to the negotiating table. They failed after a marathon wait for Putin to meet with them and then marathon talks that produced no agreement as European allies and Ukraine say hope needs to be backed up by serious, well planned, lengthy negotiations. So it was a poor omen this week when for the first time since 1999, the US Secretary of State did not attend a NATO strategizing session. Brussels Julianne smith was a U.S. ambassador to NATO under President Biden, including during Russia's full scale invasion in 2022. And I asked her how this peaceball was ever going to move down the pitch. Ambassador Smith, welcome back to our program.

[Julianne Smith]

Thank you.

[Christian Amanpour]

How important was this NATO meeting?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, look, NATO foreign ministers come together about twice a year for these very high level and important meetings. And essentially for almost four years, the chief topic at meetings when foreign ministers gather has been Ukraine. And no doubt the allies were hoping that they would have a chance to sit down with Secretary of State Marco Rubio and get his update on where we are. After the meeting in Moscow, Rubio opted not to join the foreign ministers meeting. Instead, he sent his deputy. This is extraordinarily uncommon for the United States to do so. And they were peppering him, I suspect, with a lot of questions about where things stand.

[Christian Amanpour]

So here's from the nation. NATO Secretary General Mark Rutter. This is a quote from his press conference after the NATO meeting. He says we're ready and willing to do what it takes to protect our 1 billion people and secure our territory. This is after this from Russia, from Putin. Just take a listen to this.

[Ben Wiedemann]

We're not planning to go to war with Europe. I have already spoken about this a hundred times. But if Europe suddenly wants to go to war with us and starts, we're ready right now.

[Christian Amanpour]

Do you believe Putin when he says we never want to go to war with Europe, but if it happens, we'll be ready?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, I found that statement to be disturbing. It seemed to be a very thinly veiled threat that Russia is at the ready and possibly willing to try and touch NATO territory. What we do know is that Russia has spent years, decades trying very hard to erode allies commitment and faith in NATO's Article 5 An attack on one is an attack on all. We've seen a number of sabotage events in recent years. We've seen incidents where drones have flown into Polish airspace. We had the incident with Russian jets flying over Estonia. These are classic plays on the part of the Russian playbook. They are designed to divide the alliance, to chip away at the unity that exists inside the NATO alliance and to create uncertainty and security across the entire European continent. And so when I hear the statement that Putin made, in some ways it's not altogether surprising, but it should worry Europe quite a bit in terms of how Russia is positioning itself to possibly touch or invade or intervene in NATO territory, which I hope never happens. But I don't like the sound of what we heard yesterday from Putin.

[Christian Amanpour]

Do you think NATO has the wherewithal and Europe particularly to actually confront or stave off any kind of Russian misadventure inside Europe?

[Julianne Smith]

I do think the NATO alliance has what it takes to defend NATO territory against a Russian conventional intervention of some kind on NATO territory. I do believe that cannot be done without the assistance of the United States. Europe is, as you well know, investing eye watering sums of resources in their own defense. Right now and within the next decade, Europe is going to look entirely different in terms the capabilities it has to defend itself. But right now, here at the end of 2025, the alliance is still very much a transatlantic alliance, a project where America and Europe and Canada can come together to defend NATO territory. And I liked what happened in the NATO summit this past summer. President Trump seemed quite confident and upbeat about the NATO alliance. But some of what we're seeing and hearing for Example, Marco Rubio skipping the foreign ministers meeting. You make one ask, will this administration continue to support the alliance through and through and remain an active member of this important alliance?

[Christian Amanpour]

So, obviously critical to that is what the administration does to make Putin understand that this war is unwinnable on the battlefield and that there needs to be serious negotiations. So let's just ask for your analysis on what you saw happen in Russia. So. So, sixth time, apparently, that Witkoff has traveled to Moscow to talk to Putin. They didn't get anywhere. You can tell by the language, none from them personally, the negotiators. Rubio himself said, you know, kind of productive, but a lot more work to be done. Russia saying similar, but willing to keep talking. But also Moscow and Putin keeping Witkoff and Kushner waiting for many hours, apparently a grueling six hour trip around the Kremlin they were subjected to, then another five hours of talk. That's obfuscation at a very high level, right? That's playing power games. What is he trying to get out of this? Putin?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, Putin is playing for time. And we have seen many instances throughout the past, say, nine, ten months where Putin makes some very small gestures moving towards peace. But at the end of the day, we don't see evidence that he's really ready to make any concessions. So in my book, what we saw yesterday in Moscow was just another chapter where Putin smiles for the cameras. He says a few sentences that one could interpret as encouraging, but then what you hear is the bottom line. And the bottom line is that Russia is nowhere closer to reaching some sort of agreement. Russia is not prepared to make real concessions. And the middle ground that we really need between Ukraine and Russia right now seems further away than ever before. So I was discouraged by what happened. I would also like to see other members of the Trump administration engage Russia directly. While Jared Kushner and Steve Wyckoff are capable in their own right, I don't think they have the depth of experience to fully appreciate how President Putin plans out these meetings, how he executes these meetings, and he looks for ways to manipulate his friends across the table. And so I'd like to see someone sitting at that table that has years of experience, preferably decades, in dealing with Putin and the folks around him. This is serious business, and you need people who are familiar with the classic Russian plays, like leaving people to wait for many hours at the table.

[Christian Amanpour]

Ambassador Julianne Smith, thank you very much for being with us.

[Julianne Smith]

Thank you.

[Ben Wiedemann]

And coming up, we are entering a Hezbollah tunnel. Well, up a rugged rav time to.

[Christian Amanpour]

Get here, a rare look inside Hezbollah's underground tunnels in Lebanon shattered by Israeli strikes.

[Julianne Smith]

Life on the Mars farm. It's anything but quiet for me and Dave. Every day is a lot of moving parts.

[Christian Amanpour]

Five kids do not go in the house.

[Julianne Smith]

A working farm and a renovation business that never stops.

[Christian Amanpour]

We've been pushed to the limit.

If you build it, they will come.

[Julianne Smith]

Oh, my gosh, it's so beautiful. Just another day in this crazy, beautiful life we call ours. Fixer to fabulous season premiered December 2nd at 8 on HGTV.

[Christian Amanpour]

Welcome back. And the clock is ticking in Lebanon, where the battered country is facing Israeli strikes on an almost daily basis targeting Hezbollah. Despite a ceasefire technically in place, the situation is desperate. And on his first papal visit abroad, Pope Leo prayed for peace there.

[Ben Wiedemann]

I ask the international community once again to spare no effort in promoting processes of dialogue and reconciliation and make a heartfelt appeal to those who hold political and social authority here and in all countries marked by war and violence. Listen to the cry of your peoples who are calling for peace.

[Christian Amanpour]

This week, in a historic meeting, Israel did send representatives to Lebanon for the first time in decades, while at the same time signaling that will get even tougher if Hezbollah doesn't take steps to disarm soon. CNN's Ben Wiedemann got a very rare look at the damage Israel has already done to Hezbollah's infrastructure.

[Ben Wiedemann]

These are the mountains from which Hezbollah until a year ago fired missiles into Israel, but now under the control of the Lebanese army, who took reporters on a rare tour of parts of the south normally off limits to the press.

We are entering a Hezbollah tunnel well up a rugged ravine. It took a very long time to get here. This is a tunnel that the Lebanese army is telling us was not used for the storage of weapons, but rather was for personnel. It goes deep, deep into this mountain. The Lebanese army says it has found 74 such tunnels as part of the year old ceasefire agreement that halted the war with Israel. The Lebanese army told reporters it has seized large amounts of weapons and ammunition and more than doubled its troop strength south of the Litany River. All part of an effort to reassert government authority in areas where Hezbollah operated.

This looks like it was the kitchen. There's still food here, tins unopened.

This clearly was a.

Serious operation. This was some sort of field hospital or clinic. These are hospital type beds. We also saw other medical equipment in here. And there's a very unpleasant smell as well. We have ventilation pipes, a water pipe. This tunnel appears to have been one of several in this area which Israel heavily bombed. And of course, this is really how Hezbollah has fought Israel for decades. I've been to other parts of southern Lebanon where during the 1990s when they were fighting Israeli troops inside Lebanon, they dug similar tunnels, had similar facilities. But things have changed. Military technology has reached the point where it's very difficult to do anything without being seen by a side with superior technical abilities. And that's certainly what we know Israel has had.

Israel continues to target on an almost daily basis what it claims are Hezbollah members and infrastructure saying Hezbollah is is rearming and regrouping. Hezbollah is holding its fire for now. What matters is that Lebanon is under intense pressure from the United States to disarm Hezbollah before the end of this year. If it does not do that, the threat is that Israel will start the war all over again. Ben Wiedemann, cnn, South Lebanon.

[Christian Amanpour]

And ahead, oedipus on Broadway, my conversation with the stars Leslie Manville and Mark Strong about that Greek tragedy between mother and son.

There is a very strong love story at its core, and it works because you want them to be together.

Now streaming on cnn, candid conversations between Hollywood's hottest actors. New episodes of Variety's acclaimed series Actors.

[Ben Wiedemann]

On Actors premiere exclusively on cnn. Go to CNN Watch to subscribe or.

[Christian Amanpour]

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Welcome back now to a 2,500-year-old play that is the hot ticket on Broadway. You may remember Oedipus Rex from your college classics course, but a new production written by Robert Icke and starring Mark Strong and actress Leslie Manville reimagines this Sophocles tragedy as a contemporary political thriller. Now, even if you know the secrets and lies that haunt the passionate marriage of Oedipus and Jocasta, the play still feels as shocking and timely as the latest tabloid scandal. I sat down with the Oedipus stars in New York for an intimate inside view of this old new classic. Lesley Manville and Mark Strong, welcome to the program.

Thank you.

I say Oedipus. Some people say Oedipus. What is the it?

[Lesley Manville]

Well, we say Oedipus in the UK But I think mostly here people say Oedipus.

[Christian Amanpour]

This is I mean, it's 2500-year-old play by Sophocles made for the current moment. What is it that has brought it down to earth, so to speak? It's the political angle, right, for this moment?

Well, Rob makes the point. Rob Eich, who's the writer, director, makes the point that when this play was done originally, two and a half Thousand years ago, it would have been contemporary. So the idea of modernizing it and making it contemporary is not so outlandish. But what it suits is the political kind of framework that he's put it in, because he makes Oedipus. Oedipus, a guy who's about to win a landslide election, which kind of relates to the idea that the original Oedipus probably had a little bit too much hubris.

And then there were, you know, references to him having to show his birth certificate and people reacted to that because of the Obama, Trump sort of thing. So there are quite a lot of modern day relevant instances there.

[Lesley Manville]

But that's appreciated more here than it was when we did our London run.

[Christian Amanpour]

And you did the same thing in London.

[Lesley Manville]

Oh, exactly the same. The script hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is we're now in a different theatre that's wider. The set's been able to expand a little bit in a good way and we have some American cast now.

[Christian Amanpour]

So I want to read something from Vogue which I thought was really quite good and I want to ask you to comment on it. So this is about the play. They are, or were the perfect couple. They've been together for years, they have adult children. Why should a little quirk in the family tree only just discovered mean everything has to change? Does a man really have to separate from his loving, supportive, gorgeous, funny wife just because she happens to be his mother?

I mean, it's put like that.

Well, part of the joy of the play and part of the experience that people have is that there is a very strong love story in its core and it works because you want them to be together and they can't help themselves at the end.

Well, you know, one of the things I read that you had said is that you insisted that it has to be the audience has to be rooting for this couple to stay together despite everything.

[Lesley Manville]

Yes, because of course, at the beginning of the play they are. Their, their knowledge of their own relationship is that they are a 23 long year long marriage. It's a great marriage. They're not just sugary and cute.

There'S a depth to their relationship. They're a sophisticated, intelligent couple who are very supportive of each other. She's very politically astute in the same way that he is. And she's had a very interesting past. She's had a troublesome past which is shared with the audience throughout the play. So, of course, you know, it's only when you get to the end that you realise that they realize that they're a mother son relationship. But of course. And I think the audience are thrown into a chaos of their own because on one hand there's the moralist in you saying, well, that's got to stop. But they've been. Then other people say, well, but they've been. They've been doing it for 23 years. They've made a family.

There is an argument, but of course it's an argument that Oedipus can't live with because he is a truth seeking missile. And that's been the downfall.

[Christian Amanpour]

And that is actually, I don't know whether that's in the original. It was because of your truth seeking that you couldn't live with it. But certainly that was a huge, you know, the emblem for this play. And we live in a world, certainly for me, the idea of the truth is sacrosanct. And even your, you know, merch says truth is a. XX. Excuse me, I X' ed the wrong word. Truth is a mother. Xx.

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

[Lesley Manville]

That says a lot about you.

[Christian Amanpour]

That's my English coming out.

But in the same way that you're asking the audience to think about how they feel about, about mother and son having that loving relationship, you're also asking the audience how they feel about the fact that this man's need and search for the truth actually destroys everything that they have.

As an audience member, you actually do know what the story is.

Yeah.

You know, because it's a 2, 500 year old play by.

[Lesley Manville]

Well, surprisingly, though, not everybody does.

[Christian Amanpour]

Okay.

[Lesley Manville]

I mean, I, I had somebody in the other night who had no idea how it ended.

[Christian Amanpour]

You hear the odd gasp.

[Lesley Manville]

Yeah, yeah, so. But I, I agree with you.

[Christian Amanpour]

It's. And yet what I'm saying is just, I'm still on the edge of my seat wondering what's going to happen. And actually, are they going to stay together? Are they not when obviously I know that it's, it's going to come to a.

[Lesley Manville]

And that, that really is the dramatic genius of, of Rob.

[Christian Amanpour]

Yeah.

[Lesley Manville]

Because of course, you know, you do. You're looking at the clock and you think there's so much to find out. And there's two and a half minutes left. So where is this gonna go? How is it?

[Christian Amanpour]

And then, yeah, I was gonna say it's the way he structured it and the drip feed of information is handled so, so suavely that as an audience, you literally are just pulled forward into your, in your seat and you just want to find out what happens. And all the time. This drip feed of information is happening. This clock is running down. So there's half of your brain thinking, hang on, there's only a few minutes to go. I was thinking that and there's still, there's more I need to know.

I was thinking that and I was wondering, how are they going to get there? Yeah, obviously. I mean, you guys have been doing it for how long?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we get there. Well, we've been doing it for months now, haven't we?

Lesley Manville, Mark Strong, thank you both very much.

Thank you.

[Ivan Duque]

Thanks.

[Christian Amanpour]

Thanks. And Oedipus is on at Broadway's Studio 54 theater until early February. Coming up, nuns on the run as a group of elderly Catholics is to capture the world's attention fleeing their old people's home. We go back to my archive when a fear of technology triggered a mutiny in a New Jersey monastery. That's next.

Welcome back. Three elderly nuns are saying they won't shut up after they were told they must stop posting on social media if they want to continue living in their Austrian convent. The sisters made news in September when they were locked out of that home after returning from medical appointments. They were sent to a care home instead, but made a run for it, and with the help of friends and a locksmith, the trio managed to sneak back into their convent. The nun's defiance took me back to being a Cub reporter in 1988, assigned to cover a situation in New Jersey, when a group of sisters barricaded themselves inside their monastery for the opposite reason, to protest newish tech, you might call it mutiny in the monastery. Five nuns at this convent in New Jersey have barricaded themselves inside the infirmary and they won't come out. They belong to the Carmelite order. They are cloistered, which means they never leave and don't speak face to face to anyone on the outside. But from a phone behind these windows, they explain their protest.

[Ben Wiedemann]

We locked ourselves in the infirmary for fear that we would be physically ejected.

[Christian Amanpour]

From the monastery, ejected for refusing to accept some reforms by the new mother superior. It appears she's been trying to relax life at the convent by bringing in some modern conveniences such as newspapers, snacks between meals and television.

[Ben Wiedemann]

Television, radio.

Excessive use of candy. It sounds ridiculous, really, but it was just a total breakdown of our entire lifestyle from the time we woke up to the time that we retired.

[Christian Amanpour]

This lay parishioner agrees.

[Julianne Smith]

The devil is at work.

[Christian Amanpour]

We have to combat it.

[Lesley Manville]

And there's only one way. A lot of prayer and sacrifice which these nuns do.

[Christian Amanpour]

The sisters don't want anything to change their Carmelite lives of seclusion and prayer. Sister Elianne, who acts as the liaison between the monastery and the outside world, explains a life inside that has the least amount of distractions in their life and a very simple life. It's never anything that's too complicated so.

[Ben Wiedemann]

That their mind can be on God.

[Christian Amanpour]

So they accept messages and donations only through this wooden turntable. They see family members a few times a year and then only from behind this grill. They even hear Mass from behind the chapel's metal partitions. The strict rules that govern this order don't address the issue of television or any other modern day amenity. So the sisters have written to the Pope asking him to intercede. They say they won't move until he does. There's no word from the Vatican yet, but the Mother Superior through a spokesman, says the nuns won't be punished. Still, the protesters are sitting tight. Christiana Manpour, cnn, Morris Township, New Jersey. Well, they got to stay. And whether it was denying tech in 1988 or wanting and embracing tech in 2025, I think Annie Lennox said it best. Sisters are doing it for themselves. When we come back, a final word from the revered playwright Sir Tom Stoppard, who died this week at 88. What he told me about his love for theatre and why he's always been so grateful for his character.

And finally, all this week, tributes have been pouring in for the great British playwright Tom Stoppard, who died at the age of 88 last weekend. For more than five decades, his plays stormed Broadway and London's West End, putting his pen behind such revered classics like the Real Thing and Rosencrantz and Guilderstern Are Dead. And his love of journalism showing up in the satire Night and Day. Of course, his talent also leapt off the screen in scripts for Shakespeare in Love, which won him the Oscar, and Brazil. I spoke to Stoppard around his final work, Leopoldstadt, which was autobiographical. Stoppard, a Czech refugee, never knew that he was Jewish because his mother had hidden that from him in order to protect him. But after a lifetime of critical and financial success and winning all the major awards, he told me how grateful he was for everything his mother did for him. Your mother clearly did not want to tell you about your heritage, didn't want to tell the boys. She clearly. And it's thought that maybe this horrible, this evil could come back. What if Hitler won?

[Ben Wiedemann]

Yeah.

[Christian Amanpour]

And she wanted you to have a different life and not to be burdened even by the knowledge of where you had come from? Did you ever, when you found out the truth, did you ever resent it? Did you ever rebuke her?

No.

[Ben Wiedemann]

I'm so laid back about almost everything.

I want to correct my. My psyche, let alone my behavior. I didn't resent it for a moment.

I figured my mother has her rights. She's dead now, but she had her rights, you know, she'd earned the right. She'd got us to sanctuary. We were being brought up happy and healthy, well fed and clothed, and she saved us.

So she was entitled.

[Christian Amanpour]

And of course, Stoppard also always said he was grateful for the charmed life. Life he lived. That's all we have time for this weekend. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as [e-mail] audio and on all other major platforms. I'm Christiana Manpour in London, and thank you for watching. I'll see you again next week.

[Julianne Smith]

This week on the Assignment with me, Adie Cornish. Over the last year, we've seen plenty of stories about the resurgence of religion in America. While some people are returning to religion, others are moving in the opposite direction towards modern witchcraft and paganism. And across all of these spaces, the pattern is the same. People are overwhelmed, institutions feel shaky, and there's this, like, growing desire for something more grounding, ancient, or frankly, something just more meaningful than what they've had before. Listen to the Assignment with Me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast.

[Christian Amanpour]

Apparently.