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- [00:00]
Bianna Golodryga
What is it about Australia that just hits different? Australia is where we shared our first kiss, where we fell in love.
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Anderson Cooper
That was 18 years ago now.
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Bianna Golodryga
And this is what, your fourth trip back.
- [00:12]
Anderson Cooper
Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.
- [00:14]
Bianna Golodryga
The ocean, the people, the oysters. So good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's journey@australia.com or and start planning the vacation of a lifetime. Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Terror in the night as Russia strikes Ukraine's cities, I ask the former NATO Deputy Secretary General if there's any hope for a diplomatic solution.
- [00:51]
Anderson Cooper
And as you know, it is not a crime to party with Mr. Epstein.
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Bianna Golodryga
With 3 million Epstein documents released, what do we know about his interactions with the most powerful people? Journalist Julie K. Brown weighs in on secrets revealed and questions unanswered.
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Anderson Cooper
Also, it's just more complicated than either noble vigilante or vicious victims.
- [01:15]
Bianna Golodryga
Race, fear and the legacy of subway shooter Bernie Goetz. Michelle Martin talks to Elliot Williams, author of Five Bullets. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. We begin in Ukraine where a major onslaught of Russian missiles and drones bombarded cities across the country, targeting energy facilities and cutting heat to tens of thousands of people, even as overnight temperatures fell below 0 degrees Fahrenheit. Russia attacking despite President Trump's claim last Thursday that Vladimir Putin agreed to a week long pause in attacks, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy accuses Russia of choosing terror and escalation over diplomacy.
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Anderson Cooper
The Russians have once again disregarded the efforts of the American side. The President of the United States requested.
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Rose Gottemoeller
That they refrain from attacking energy facilities and critical infrastructures.
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Anderson Cooper
During the meetings between our negotiating teams, the American president said that they should.
- [02:29]
Rose Gottemoeller
Refrain from attacks for a week. This was a very important and significant decision.
- [02:34]
Anderson Cooper
In fact, it began on Friday night and tonight, in our opinion, the Russians broke their promise.
- [02:42]
Bianna Golodryga
Nonetheless, trilateral peace talks with Russia, Ukraine and the United States are set to continue in Abu Dhabi this week. And while the world focuses on diplomatic efforts there. New Start, the only remaining nuclear arms control agreement between the United States and Russia expires this Thursday. So can diplomacy prevail on nuclear weapons and on Ukraine? Rose Gottemuller, former deputy Secretary General of NATO, was America's chief negotiator on New Start. She comes to us from Capitol Hill where she was briefing US Senators on the agreement. Thank you so much, Rose for joining us. And we'll get to that agreement expiring in just a moment. But I do want to get to the news of day. Russia resuming its strikes on Ukraine's energy facilities in the dead of winter. As President Trump said that President Putin promised him he would at least hold off a week on doing as much. Russia is saying that they kept their commitment. Perhaps there's some confusion about the actual term and the dates that they agreed to. But what does that tell you about Russia's commitment to keeping any sort of agreements, as they are also now negotiating some sort of end, hopefully, for this war?
- [03:55]
Rose Gottemoeller
It does seem very, very cynical from what I can tell, because I do believe that there was some difference of opinion as to how long this cease fire should go on. But honestly, to start up just as these negotiations in Abu Dhabi are beginning, it's a weird way to convey what direction of travel you're on. It seems that the Russians are still on the direction of travel, of not wanting to get to any agreement. And also, I think there's an element here of interaction between Putin and Zelenskyy because Zelenskyy actually had a word, a positive word, over the weekend saying that this ceasefire had lent momentum to the talks coming up in Abu Dhabi. Well, when Vladimir Putin hears anything good from Zelenskyy, he wants to do his best to contradict it. So I think in this case, there could be a little element of that dynamic going on as well.
- [04:44]
Bianna Golodryga
So what, if any, hopes are we to have going into these trilateral talks in Abu Dhabi?
- [04:51]
Rose Gottemoeller
It seems that there is some progress being made. Just the fact that we have trilateral talks going on with Ukrainians and Russians participating in it, along with the United States and facilitation of the government in Abu Dhabi, I think that is an important step in the right direction. We seem to be inching along, but I am very concerned about the cynical behavior of the Kremlin, I have to say.
- [05:14]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. And President Trump said talks between Russia and Ukraine are, quote, going very well, but we're also seeing a shift in the attacks from Russia's standpoint on transport for buses, railways, civilian routes. Is this a tactical shift from what we're seeing on the battlefield where? Or do you think that this is Russia just again, trying to show its might and inflict as much pain as it can, both on the battlefield and to civilians in major cities?
- [05:42]
Rose Gottemoeller
Yes, it was very tragic that, again, Ukraine depends so much on coal mining, and 12 miners were killed on a bus as well as civilians killed on a train. In the last week. So it's been a very, very difficult period. I do think that there was a slight element of shift there just to be able to fulfill apparently Putin's promise to President Trump not to energy infrastructure. So they started going after transport links instead with the clear message that they are keeping up the pressure. Also, again, the message that they may not be on exactly the same route to a rapid conclusion to this war as President Trump has wanted to be and as President Zelensky has wanted to be. They're conveying once again that they are not ready to give up on their key demands to take over total control of the Donbass in particular.
- [06:31]
Bianna Golodryga
And all of this happening as there does seem to be progress made among Europeans and Ukraine in terms of what any sort of guarantees for Ukraine would look like under an agreed upon ceasefire between these two and an armistice between these two countries if one does come to fruition. And according to new reporting, Ukraine, Europe and the US have discussed a tiered enforcement plan that would be warnings within 24 hours if Russia breaks the ceasefire and attacks Ukraine. European military involvement between 72 hours and potentially the US backing if Russia violates the cease fire for a prolonged period after 72 hours. How serious do you think this plan is? And can the Europeans, can Ukraine especially rely on the United States stepping in after three days?
- [07:26]
Rose Gottemoeller
I think it's really important that the United States has committed up to this point and it seems like something that the Trump administration was not early on that enthusiastic about, but they have committed to US Involvement in a step by step approach. And I think that's very valuable. If you juxtapose this evident plan against what was in existence during the early period after 2014 when there were attempts at a ceasefire and resolution under the so called Minsk process, there was nowhere near that level of detail. And with the Russians, believe me, I understand, everything has to be nailed down in detail, the procedures, the routines, who will do what when and so. So to my mind, thisat least what we know about this framework has some promise to it because it does contain that level of detail about who will do what when.
- [08:17]
Bianna Golodryga
And we still know, given their track record, they'll still violate terms that they agreed to themselves And Russia from day one of this war, as we're approaching tragically, the four year mark of the larger scale invasion of Ukraine, has said that there will be no foreign troops at all in Ukraine allowed. And that now I guess goes for or during ceasefire as well. So how much do you think is this Russia moving the goalposts and how concerned should the Europeans, should America be about this demand from Russia?
- [08:53]
Rose Gottemoeller
Well, those are the two big differences, the two big Russian red lines that are still out there. They want to take over all the territory of the Donbas and they are refusing the notion that NATO countries, including the United States, should be participating in providing security guarantees for the Ukrainians. But for the Ukrainians, that is an absolute necessity for a fair outcome in these negotiations. They have to see firm security guarantees from the United States and its allies. So I think that's probably going to be the biggest set of sticking points over those two issues trying to come to a resolution, and we will see where it ends up. But I've been heartened that NATO, Ukraine and NATO, including the United States, seem to be on the same wavelength with regard to getting to yes over the security guarantees. Now, there have been some concerning stories out there that the US Wants the Ukrainians to give up on the territorial issue in order to get the security guarantees. There have been denials out of the White House. I can't tell exactly where that stands, but that is something to watch as well.
- [09:55]
Bianna Golodryga
Does that worry you? I mean, do you think that that is something that. But do you think that that's something ultimately the President Zelenskyy, I know he says that he's constitutionally bound to. He can't just give up territory without a vote and a referendum from his constituents. But if that's ultimately the demand from the United States, what choice is he left with?
- [10:16]
Rose Gottemoeller
Well, the choice may be just to fight on and fight on with the support of the Europeans. And that's the kind of message we've been seeing emerging, that the Ukrainians are not just going to give up on this and certainly President Zelensky very, very firm in this regard. So it will, I think, come down to being able to balance out the Russian demand with regard to the security guarantees with a great firmness from all the NATO allies and from Washington itself. The problem from very early on in these negotiations is Washington seems to have a tendency to want to muscle Kyiv from time to time, and in this case, I think, and the role of the NATO alliance and Mark Rutte himself as the secretary general, I was glad he was in Kyiv over the last 20, 24 hours because he has been effective in working with President Trump. He worked with him on the Greenland question, for example. So I hope that this can contribute to getting to yes.
- [11:13]
Bianna Golodryga
And all of this is happening. As we noted, the expiration of new start in two days as the treaty's chief U.S. negotiator. How historically dangerous, in your view, is this particular moment with, as we noted, the United States now in a position where they're potentially going to be negotiating with a country that's illegally invaded its neighbor for nearly four years?
- [11:37]
Rose Gottemoeller
Well, to be honest with you, there have been many periods in our history since the 1970s when we got the first Strategic Arms Limitation Agreement when we have not had legally binding treaty limits in place. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, for example, the second SALT agreement was supposed to be ratified by the Senate, but President Carter pulled it back. So we went through a number of years where we just had a kind of handshake agreement not to move beyond the limits of the second SALT agreement. And that's the kind of situation we are in now. I don't think we're going to fall off a cliff when New Start goes out of force. But it does concern me that with all the other negatives in the U. S. Russian relationship, we might not be able to get back to the table anytime soon. It's an urgent issue, particularly because the Chinese are also modernizing their nuclear forces. And President Trump has promised to talk to both Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin about nuclear disarmament. So we need to urgently get to the table with both of those countries. And if we have so many other issues on the agenda, and particularly finding peace in Ukraine, it might seem difficult to have enough attention span to also deal with nuclear weapons.
- [12:48]
Bianna Golodryga
You mentioned China. China, I believe their StockPiles as of 2024 was in about the 600-range of nuclear weapons. It's projected to grow by more than 1,000 by 2030. And so as Vladimir Putin has offered to extend START too, for a one year voluntary extension as he describes it. Trump has called this a good idea but would like to include China in the mix as well. What do you make of the president's request that China also be part of any sort of negotiations? And how realistic is that?
- [13:21]
Rose Gottemoeller
My view is that it is realistic to start to talk to the Chinese about what their objectives and intentions are. They are clearly modernizing, they're building up rapidly. And our Department of Defense several years ago said that they would be at 1,500 warheads by tenI'm sorry, by 2035. And so I think it's very important to get to the negotiating table and talk to them about their objectives. But bear in mind, we and the Russians still have so many more warheads than the Chinese. We have 4,000 total. The Russians have approximately 4,000 total. So compare what they have today. The Chinese have 600. Yes, they're building up. But that's why I keep saying to people we have time to work this problem, we don't need to panic. But it is urgent to begin talks with the Chinese about their objectives. What are their intentions with this modernization talk about lowering nuclear risks. And with the Russians, my view is we can continue to talk to them about limiting nuclear weapons and controlling the future in that way. So it's a little bit different process. That's why I think we should have two negotiations in parallel and the President can have two great victories in his negotiating process.
- [14:34]
Bianna Golodryga
How you know the President well, he'd like to claim another victory here. You say that with a smile on your face. But how hollow is this conversation and prospect without regular inspections and data exchanges, specifically between the United States and Russia? We know that they were frozen during COVID and then after Russia's full scale invasion into Ukraine.
- [14:57]
Rose Gottemoeller
Right. Let me make a difference there because both sides agreed during COVID that they didn't want to endanger their inspectors by sending them on on site inspection. And then Vladimir Putin pulled the plug on all further implementation, all further inspections. In February of 2023, after he invaded Ukraine, he linked it all up saying that the Ukrainian assistance that NATO was providing meant that he couldn't talk to the US about nuclear weapons anymore. I disagree with that notion. But nevertheless that's the position he took. So now we're at a point, I think where it seems like Putin is ready to start talking about nuclear limits again and nuclear stability. And it's possible, I think for the President to advantage of that. But let me stress it will have to be any new treaty with the Russians will have to involve very extensive and intensive on site inspection, including of warhead facilities. So these are going to be very difficult to negotiate. We have good experience with on site inspection over many, many years here. But it will take some new technical work to be able to monitor and verify nuclear warheads, which is an important U.S. goal in the next negotiations.
- [16:06]
Bianna Golodryga
Right. And it's important to remember that it was last year that the President raised eyebrows when he ordered the Pentagon to restart nuclear testing on an equal basis with China and Russia. A bit unclear whether these were nuclear capable devices that he was talking about or not, but I remember that making headlines as well. Rose Godemeller, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for the time.
- [16:27]
Rose Gottemoeller
My pleasure. Thank you.
- [16:28]
Bianna Golodryga
And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the. What is it about Australia that just hits different. Australia is where we shared our first kiss, where we fell in love.
- [16:44]
Anderson Cooper
That was 18 years ago now.
- [16:47]
Bianna Golodryga
And this is what your fourth trip back.
- [16:49]
Anderson Cooper
Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.
- [16:52]
Bianna Golodryga
The ocean, the people, the oysters. So good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's journey@australia.com and start planning the vacation of a lifetime.
- [17:08]
Anderson Cooper
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. My guest is Yiyoon Lee, an award winning author and a professor of creative writing at Princeton. She's written a number of highly acclaimed novels and memoirs.
- [17:24]
Bianna Golodryga
Her latest is called Things in Nature Merely Grow.
- [17:28]
Rose Gottemoeller
You don't.
- [17:28]
Anderson Cooper
You don't like the word grief or.
- [17:30]
Bianna Golodryga
You don't use the word grief? I don't use the word grief the way people use it. People talk about their grief as a process. It's a state that we're going to.
- [17:39]
Anderson Cooper
Be in forever and ever.
- [17:41]
Bianna Golodryga
And I choose to be here.
- [17:42]
Anderson Cooper
You choose to be?
- [17:44]
Bianna Golodryga
Yes, because the alternative is you forget you're lost people. And I don't want to forget. Talking grief, building community.
- [17:54]
Rose Gottemoeller
That's what the podcast is all about.
- [17:57]
Anderson Cooper
This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:09]
Bianna Golodryga
Now to another diplomatic development. Iran has provisionally agreed to resume nuclear talks with the United States. This comes as President Trump sent an armada to the region, threatening to strike Iran if it fails to negotiate a deal. Trump also threatened military action in response to the regime's deadly crackdown on demonstrations. Correspondent Giovanna Karachiz spoke to a doctor inside Iran who witnessed the brutality firsthand. He helped coordinate an underground network of medics to treat protesters and now he fears arrest himself. Here's her report. And please be advised, some of the images are disturbing.
- [18:48]
Giovanna Karachiz
It was a night of horror. The gunfire, chaos and fear captured, captured in this video, a scene that was replicated across Iran. Many of those who barely escaped the regime's onslaught are still on the run, with security forces hunting down the injured and those who aid them.
- [19:14]
Anonymous Iranian Doctor
What happened on January 8th and 9th? The scenes at the hospitals were like those end of the world Hollywood movies.
- [19:21]
Giovanna Karachiz
This doctor we're not identifying for his safety is part of an underground network of medics treating injured protesters.
- [19:28]
Anonymous Iranian Doctor
Inside Iran, government hospitals were controlled by security forces and monitored by cameras. If injured people went there and were identified as protesters, staff on duty had to report them and they would be arrested.
- [19:43]
Giovanna Karachiz
Never have the wounded needed their doctors more than they do right now with activists reporting more than 11,000 injured in the most violent regime crackdown in the history of the Islamic Republic. With the widespread use of live ammunition and military grade weapons. It's also extremely dangerous being a doctor in Iran right now.
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Anonymous Iranian Doctor
The doctors who didn't cooperate were detained or the next day security officers would summon them or they were thrown out.
- [20:18]
Giovanna Karachiz
Images like this have emerged showing injured protesters too scared to go to hospitals being treated in secret. Some so desperate have also been reaching out to Iranian doctors abroad for help. Hospitals are no sanctuary in the Islamic Republic. Security forces have raided facilities like this one in the city of Elam. And that was even before the most vicious and bloody clampdown on the protests began on January 8. Since then, the doctor and others say it was the feared Revolutionary Guards who took control of hospitals searching for injured protesters. Reports of security forces detaining protesters from hospitals are widespread. The UN and rights groups have also raised concerns about the arrest of doctors. Speaking with us could mean prison for you or even worse. Why did you agree to speak with us?
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Anonymous Iranian Doctor
I've locked the door with five different locks. I expect that at any moment as I give this interview, they could break in and arrest me. I have chosen to put my own safety second and make sharing information about the injured and the war crimes that have occurred my first priority.
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Giovanna Karachiz
The risks he's taking. He says fighting back tears are nothing compared to the young protesters who paid the ultimate price.
- [21:41]
Anonymous Iranian Doctor
I promised myself to be a voice for the injured and for those who have been killed. I promised myself to make sure the voices are heard by the world.
- [21:50]
Giovanna Karachiz
Voices like that of 16 year old Arvin's family. He was shot in the head. They killed him. This relative cries as they try to speak out at the hospital. They are silenced. These are the voices the regime doesn't want the world to hear.
- [22:13]
Bianna Golodryga
And voices that's so important the world actually does get a chance to hear. Our thanks to that really important report from Jamanda Karachi. Up next, we take a deep dive into the Epstein document dump. More than 3 million pages, along with videos, photos and emails of the rich, famous and powerful. But while this vast record casts new shadows over the reputation of powerful elites, what does it all add up to? And will there ever be accountability for Epstein's victims? Journalist Julie K. Brown is the author of Perversion of the Jeffrey Epstein Story. It was her investigative reporting for the Miami Herald which won multiple awards and led to Epstein's arrest in 2019. Julie K. Brown, thank you so much for joining the show. We wouldn't be here going through this reckoning as a country and learning about these survivors, Julie, and seeing that the scope that this has globally without all of your important reporting. So thank you so much for everything that you've done that you continue to do. And I know you continue to work because you spent this weekend going through, page by page of all of these newly published documents and released documents. And it was years after your book Perversion of Justice was published. They appear to implicate even more politicians, even more elite, even more powerful names. After reading all of this, everything you've already discovered in your reporting, does anything surprise you at this point?
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Julie K. Brown
Well, thank you first for having me. And I just want to point out, really, we wouldn't be here without the victims, because what made my work so powerful was them. And that's what's continuing to, I think, push this into the public, into a new reckoning for what this story is about. So I do think that it was the victims that, that that are to be credited for this story still having, you know, the kind of reach that it does. I there, no, nothing is surprising me. I expected it would be chaotic. I expected that it would be, you know, especially, you know, voluminous and to the point where it's almost impossible. It's impossible to see anything. And what we are seeing though, is, is confirmation that this was more than just Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, doing sex trafficking just between themselves, this involved other people. And also what's not talked about a lot, it also involved a lot of global money laundering. So, you know, this is a huge crime network that involves an awful lot of people from all over the country and all over the world.
- [25:04]
Bianna Golodryga
You mentioned that we wouldn't be here without the bravery so many years later from these survivors. And even as the Department of Justice had pledged that they would do everything they can to protect them, to shield their names and information, redact their photos, it seems that that has not happened. And in fact, a Manhattan federal judge will be holding a hearing tomorrow to consider shutting down the DOJ website after victims names were improper disclosed. I'd like for you to listen and for our audience to listen to how one survivor, Haley Robinson, told CNN she believes that these disclosures were intentional. It's been heartbreaking. I have been on the phone with some of my survivor sisters. I've been up late night crying with them on the phone. They are devastated. They are heartbroken. Personal information has been leaked that had absolutely. There's no reason for it, but yet the men and some of the defining evidence has still been redacted. So at this point, we're feeling this is extremely intentional and it's very harmful. And this is not what we meant when we said we wanted transparency and apologies. Her name is Haley Robson. Lawyers for survivors say that the failure to redact these names has once again turned their lives upside down. You heard from Haley. She believes that this was intentional. The DOJ has responded by saying that it's not intentional. They are aware. They apologize for this. It is human error that caused this. So what do you think? Do you think that this was intentional, or do you think that this was just reckless incompetence?
- [26:49]
Julie K. Brown
It's hard to know because they certainly had enough time to really comb through these. I mean, look, they knew since Trump was elected that this was his campaign motto, that he was going to be transparent and he was going to release these files. So they've known for, you know, almost a year now now that this was something that the public was demanding and the victims wanted. So they had plenty of time. We had heard reports that they were going through them, you know, even, you know, over the summer. So I don't understand what their excuses. And, and also, by the way, these victims, the whole reason why I took up this story to begin with was the way that they treated these victims way back in 2005 and 6 and 7, when they knew Epstein was committing these crimes. Authorities, the fb, the Justice Department, all knew he was doing this. They treated the victims horribly. And then they wonder why the some of the victims didn't want to cooperate. I mean, it was so horrible the way they were treated from the very beginning. And so could you imagine what kind of trauma they are now going through? Two decades, almost two decades later, for some of them, it's just inexcusable.
- [28:06]
Bianna Golodryga
And to hear from these victims and survivors, and as we're showing when they were testifying, speaking there before cameras, before speaking with members of Congress, outside of Congress, right there was in November of last year. You see how young they were at the time. I mean, they still remained, they were still young. They were girls at the time. Not even, you know, some of them in their upper teens. It is unimaginable what they've experienced. And still so many questions about why someone like Jeffrey Epstein was able to wield so much power. Friendships from, as we said, cross party lines, from the rich and powerful. They were international politicians as well, members of royal families. From all of your investigative reporting, have you been able to understand why so many people were drawn separate from the sexual abuse I'm just saying the friendships that he generated and maintained for so many years despite the charges against him.
- [29:19]
Julie K. Brown
Money, it was all about money, greed. It really was. Including to some degree, the crimes that he committed against children and young women because he was using them as currency. He was using them to, to snare or to somehow connect with people that he wanted to do business with. And these people just ate it up. They just didn't understand or ignored or were ignorant of the ramifications. But this involved a lot of money laundering, a lot of power that people wanted to gain connections. I mean, he was a maestro of, of helping people to make connections in order for them to get money. Whether it was new clients, whether it was whole countries that they wanted to court for one reason or another. This is a global network that he was, you know, trying to, to form here. And it really was, is all about greed and money. And even today, the idea that, you know, you know, Todd Blanche is saying there's nothing to see here. That's, that's, that's ridiculous. We know that he was laundering money. We know that there were other people involved. So if nothing else, this should be a financial crime story at the very least.
- [30:39]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah. And you've argued that the FBI stopped digging once they had enough information, specifically as it relates to Epstein alone and no one else. Why do you think that is?
- [30:49]
Julie K. Brown
Because there's so many big people involved. If you step on one of the, these people, you risk, you know, especially if you're in government, you know, at high and high in government level position. I mean, it's the same thing that happened with Alex Acosta with the original plea deal. You know, Epstein hired all these really high powered lawyers who had influence in the Justice Department, and he didn't want to, you know, get them mad at him. He wanted to rise in his career. And this is exactly why this is happening. Just on a larger level. They know that they could hurt people's careers, they could make life miserable or you can make a lot of money if you go along with us. So, yeah, you know, it is really about money. And, you know, Senator Ron Wyden in Oregon has been investigating that. He's hitting a lot of roadblocks with the Treasury Department. And people should know that this, this is about money and that our, you know, our government is still hiding a lot about this.
- [31:55]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, you mentioned Alex Acosta. We should note that he was the lawyer who was prosecuting and was accused of being overly lenient in the prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein and was President Trump's first labor secretary before he stepped down, following the fallout from this specific story. And here we are, so many years later on the week where now Bill and Hillary Clinton have agreed to testify before Congress in their investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, days before a vote to actually hold them in criminal contempt. Do you think anything meaningful if they finally agree to the terms? I think they're just trying. The Republican here who is chairing the oversight is suggesting that he's not accepting the terms that Bill Clinton offered, which is to testify at home in New York and not in Washington. And if they ultimately agree, what, if anything, are you expecting to hear and come out of these hearings and his testimony?
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Julie K. Brown
Well, we know that Bill Clinton has already publicly said release everything. He's been on the record with that, and that leads me to believe that he. He doesn't have any fear that there's something in there that would hurt him. But we honestly don't know. This. This, you know, Epstein orbit was pretty big and involved a lot of people, including, at one time, anyway, Clinton. I have never heard a story of him being sexually involved with anybody connected to the Epstein case. And I'm saying that, honestly, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It just means, you know, sometimes people do things behind closed doors and are really more careful than other people. So I just don't think we know what they're going to say. My guess is if they agree, then they probably feel that they don't have anything to hide.
- [33:51]
Bianna Golodryga
And he, we should note, has not been charged with any wrongdoing as it relates to Jeffrey Epstein, nor has President Trump. But his name, I believe, appears over a thousand times in this latest tranche of documents. Where does he end up in all of this? I mean, you talk about the fact that there are so many people implicated across party lines. Do you see this ultimately hurting Donald Trump?
- [34:19]
Julie K. Brown
Well, to be honest with you, I think it's already hurting him. I think the way he's handled this rollout is, is, you know, has already had ramifications, especially within the MAGA movement. I just think that it, the entire thing has been mishandled from the very beginning. And I think that has hurt him because whether he had anything to do with it or not, and obviously we have no evidence that he did it just it. There's a distrust of the government when you're saying one thing and doing another thing. And I think there's an implication there, especially now that these files are coming out and they're going back in, they're disappearing. We'll See a document and we'll look at it. And then when we go back to look at it again, it's gone. And that sows distrust that what are they hiding?
- [35:08]
Bianna Golodryga
And the deputy Attorney general, Todd Blanche said it is not illegal to have partied with Jeffrey Epstein. And that is indeed true. That is the case may be worth questioning someone's judgment by spending time with a man like that, but it was not illegal. He also said that this will be the last of this case and that as far as they're concerned, there are no further investigations pending. When it comes to the justice that these victims, that these survivors deserve. Does that sound just to you?
- [35:46]
Julie K. Brown
No, I mean, look, good luck with that because this, the public are not going to, they're going to keep going on this story. This story will outlive me and these victims are not going to stop. And I just think that it's very short sighted to make a blanket statement like that. To me, it would make more sense to say, look, we're looking at this a little further. There are some, I can't talk about it, but there's some threads that we're looking at. But by saying, no, there's nothing to see here, when people can go online and see that there are things to see there, it just doesn't make any sense.
- [36:26]
Bianna Golodryga
Yeah, I'm just wondering, you mentioned outlive you. You also appear in these files. Epstein warned colleagues, quote, she is going to start trouble and then later tried to arrange an interview with you after your reporting exposed him. What was it like in the final seconds? We have here to see your name, to see yourself described that way.
- [36:47]
Julie K. Brown
I don't know. I try not to think about it because you have to wonder if they were doing that, what else were they doing? You know, I try not to think of my own safety. You know, I just keep putting one foot in front of the other. But look, I know that Epstein was digging through the trash of everybody that was involved in this case from the very beginning. And he was hiring people to follow the victims and, you know, dig into every thing they could get. So, you know, it is in the back of my mind that, you know, that he was probably investigating me.
- [37:21]
Bianna Golodryga
Well, Julie K. Brown, we are all grateful for all of the investigative work that you have done on this story. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
- [37:30]
Julie K. Brown
Thank you.
- [37:32]
Bianna Golodryga
And we'll be right back after this short break.
- [37:39]
Rose Gottemoeller
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. The problem is if I ask the next 100 people, I'm going to meet today.
- [37:46]
Anderson Cooper
How do you get cavities?
- [37:47]
Rose Gottemoeller
They're all going to tell me. Of course, if you don't brush your.
- [37:49]
Anderson Cooper
Teeth and eat a lot of sugar.
- [37:51]
Rose Gottemoeller
Your mouth is more Complex.
- [37:53]
Anderson Cooper
That's Dr. Kami Haas. He is a dentist. He's an orthodontist specialist. He's also author of the book called if your mouth could an in depth guide to oral health and its impact.
- [38:04]
Rose Gottemoeller
On your entire life.
- [38:05]
Anderson Cooper
We're going to talk about Dr. Haas approach to oral health, what he recommends as the optimal routine to fight cavities.
- [38:13]
Rose Gottemoeller
And to keep your entire mouth in tip top shape. We're also going to dive into the fluoride debate.
- [38:19]
Anderson Cooper
Listen to Chasing Life streaming now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:25]
Bianna Golodryga
The engagement that broke the Internet.
- [38:27]
Julie K. Brown
A Taylor Swift wedding is a pinnacle moment of celebrity culture.
- [38:32]
Bianna Golodryga
Could it have a billion dollar ripple.
- [38:34]
Giovanna Karachiz
Effect on the wedding industry?
- [38:35]
Bianna Golodryga
I do. The Taylor and Travis era now streaming on the cnn. It was a moment that shocked New York and divided a Nation. In 1984, Bernie Goetz opened fire on four black teenagers who he claimed were trying to rob him at a time when fears of rising crime were rife. Some saw him as a hometown hero, naming him the subway vigilante, while others condemned him for what they saw as an act of racial violence. Now former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams is reexamining this case in his new book five Bullets. And he speaks to Michelle Martin about why this story still resonates today.
- [39:21]
Michelle Martin
Thanks, Bianna. Elliot Williams, thank you so much for joining us.
- [39:24]
Anderson Cooper
Great to be here.
- [39:25]
Michelle Martin
Michelle, I think people know you as a legal analyst, former federal prosecutor. But in this book you're revisiting, I don't know, one of the most explosive, divisive cases in New York from the mid-80s. I mean, I'm saying New York, but this became a national issue. So remind people of what happened.
- [39:47]
Anderson Cooper
Okay. So what's not disputed is that Bernard Goetz on a Downtown Manhattan Number 2 subway train shoots 4 unarmed black teenagers who he claimed were trying to mug him. He ran to New Hampshire, was on the run for nine days and then ultimately turned himself in. When he came back, he was heralded as somewhat of a hero by a big segment of the population. And it really was an immensely polarizing case about self defense in New York in one of its roughest times in history with crime rates that were through the roof.
- [40:21]
Michelle Martin
Who is Bernard Goetz? I think most people haven't heard of him in years. I think some people might be surprised he's still alive. You actually had a Lengthy conversation with him. We'll get to that later. But who is Bernard Goetz, and who was he then and what did he represent to people?
- [40:36]
Anderson Cooper
He was this quirky, odd loner, in effect, a man that lived in New York City. He was 37 at the time of the shooting, and just an odd individual. His neighbors would say that he was immensely friendly one day and then odd and dismissive another day, quirky, hyperkinetic, clenched fists, walking through his building. One issue that really seemed to rile him up was public safety and crime. You could just say the words crime or drugs or drunks on the stoop, and he would just go off. And this goes back to even the 1980s. He had been mugged quite violently a few years before this shooting and thereafter always walked the streets of New York, never left home without an unlicensed firearm. He always had had this handgun on him. And to some extent, it was always a matter of when, not if, he would use it on somebody.
- [41:34]
Michelle Martin
So what happened on that subway car? Like, what was going on, like, set the scene for us.
- [41:39]
Anderson Cooper
So New York City was at its roughest, quite possibly ever. Just to put it in perspective, right back then, the homicide rate in New York city was about 2,000 homicides a year. 2,000 murders a year. It's about 300 now. It's just just rough in an incomprehensible way to most modern thinkers or viewers or audiences, right? And the subway wasn't immune. It was rough. People were often assaulted or mugged or chain snatched or purses grabbed on the subway. So that's the backdrop. He got on the subway car, and one of the four young men, Troy Canty is his name, either asked Bernard Goetz For $5, mister, can I have $5? Or demanded, give me $5. That's not clear. And that was never quite established which of the two it was. Needless to say, Getz thought he was being mugged. And New York law at the time, and as now allows someone who believes reasonably, that's the word that they are about to be the victim of a robbery can use deadly force, believe it or not. And so he felt empowered to do so, thought a mugging was imminent. Even said, even if the guy just says hi to you, sometimes, you know, even those words, hello might be an attempt for a mugging, pulled out his gun and then just opened fire on the four boys in rapid succession.
- [42:57]
Michelle Martin
And you say boys? Were they boys?
- [42:59]
Anderson Cooper
Well, they were 18 and 19 years old. That's a fair question. And throughout time, you know, as you read Coverage of it. It's this question of how to refer to them. Now, throughout the book, Five Bullets, I use the term teens or young men because they were in their teen years, but they were still adults. And we should be fair in characterizing the good and the bad in all of this. Right? But boys came out there. Some people refer to them as kids. I did not in the book.
- [43:29]
Michelle Martin
So almost immediately, this case became more than a case. It became more than one incident. So I want to ask about both of those things. What happened? Like, why did this thing sort of blow up into this almost kind of mythic thing? And what were some of the things that people were saying?
- [43:51]
Anderson Cooper
Well, so let's rewind 10 years before the movie death. In 1974, the film Death Wish had come out. And within days of the shooting, I think the next day, even before anybody knew who Bernard Goetz was, the New York Post began running graphics calling him the Death Wish Vigilante. The Death Wish Shooter. And there's a myth in American popular culture and history of the noble vigilante. The man who steps in, it's usually a white man who steps in and fills the void where police cannot. And that was an attractive fantasy to many people. And just think about the kinds of things that happened at the time. Michelle. The police set up a tip line for those nine days before they caught Bernard Gets. It's inundated with phone calls, but the phone calls were all in support or overwhelmingly in support of the shooter, suggesting that he run for mayor, that he should run for office, that he's a hero. I would have done the same thing if I were in the same position. And something about him really touched a nerve in people. And it was such an easy narrative to build. They were black teenagers. They were ostensibly mugging him. That's the narrative that got built. He was an otherwise law abiding, meek, white engineer. And the narrative just took off and took hold. That in a city in which elected officials cannot keep us safe and have failed overall, this person did what needed to be done. And that narrative took hold, and there was really no getting off it once it did.
- [45:22]
Michelle Martin
Gosh, there's so many recent cases that come to mind when you think of this. There's the story of Kyle Rittenhouse. He decided he was gonna go and help the police at this Black Lives Matter demonstration, wound up shooting somebody. And there's the more recent case of the man who choked this guy out on the subway who was frightening people because he was sort of a Michael Jackson impersonator. And Then, I mean, there's maybe people think this is analogous to Luigi Mangioni, who shot this United Healthcare CEO on the street, allegedly because he's angry at the way the health care system is treating Americans. So talk about, if you would, are there misconceptions about this case that took hold in part because of the way it was covered? Are there things that even now people. There's a sort of at variance from reality? Yes.
- [46:12]
Anderson Cooper
Oh, my gosh, absolutely. The biggest one being there was a rush to demonize the four young men. Case in point, within days of the shooting, this notion that they were armed took off. And newspapers ran with this notion that they were all carrying sharpened screwdrivers that they brandished as weapons in an attempt to mug Bernard Getz. That simply was not true. Now, these young men all had copious and sometimes quite awful criminal records, but they were not carrying weapons at the time that they accosted Bernard Goetz now, or they encountered Bernard Goetz. Now, they did have screwdrivers on them, but that's because they were going downtown to break open video game machines to steal the quarters. Right now, still crime, but not armed in an attempt to attack Bernard Goetz. And even today, when people comment me on social media about the book and oh, this guy was a hero, people still say, and Even in my DMs, these were four guys who were carrying shivs and weapons to attack Bernard Getz. And so a lot of things like that took off and were just, as I said a moment ago, were just easy narratives for people to latch onto. Of course, these four young black guys from the Bronx were armed and attacking a white man who was defenseless on the subway. Of course that's what happened. Cuz that's just an easy narrative for society to get its head around.
- [47:31]
Michelle Martin
And you point out that Getz was a bigot.
- [47:35]
Anderson Cooper
Yes.
- [47:36]
Michelle Martin
Was, is maybe is. I don't know. Was. Is a bigot. I mean, it came out at trial that he made made racist remarks. But then that really turns on this question of did he have a right to be afraid and if so, on what basis?
- [47:52]
Anderson Cooper
So I would say there's no question that he had. Like, is being a bigot a binary? Either you are or you aren't. Well, there's no question, you know, and that's a tough one for everyone to answer. There's no question, though, that as you said, he used those ethnic slurs specifically and unambiguously when talking at a co op meeting, meeting about getting the black people and Hispanic people out of the Neighborhood, Right. And he used vicious words. You can figure out and speculate folks as to what they are. Even when I interviewed him, talking to him, I was stunned by the language he was willing to use on the phone with me. Now he wasn't using.
- [48:28]
Michelle Martin
Did he know you're black?
- [48:29]
Anderson Cooper
I don't know. I mean I'd sent him my bio and he's read the book at this point, which I acknowledge that I'm a black person. There's a photograph of me in the book. So I don't know if he did. That's an excellent question. But.
- [48:42]
Michelle Martin
But he was very free with his remarks is what you're telling me.
- [48:45]
Anderson Cooper
He's remarks about the things the blacks were doing and this is what the blacks do. And he kept saying that. So there's no question that knocking around in his mind and part of his fear was of black people.
- [48:59]
Michelle Martin
Okay, so fast forward what actually happened.
- [49:02]
Anderson Cooper
He ends up getting acquitted of violent crime charges and then only convicted of the gun possession charge. Remember I said a few times he was carrying an unlicensed firearm. Acknowledged that it was unlicensed, Everybody knows that he was carrying it, cuz he shot four people with it. So ultimately he ends up getting acquitted.
- [49:19]
Michelle Martin
And served time served eight months. Was sued in civil court by, well, I think at first all four, but then the most seriously injured of the.
- [49:33]
Anderson Cooper
And one fact I left out. So the three end up as far as gunshot wounds go, not ultimately that seriously injured. They all ended up okay. One of them who gets is believed to have stood over and shot twice saying you don't look so bad. Here's another. Before shooting him the second time, he ended up paralyzed from the mid chest down and brain damaged with the mental capacity of roughly a nine year old. Well, he ends up suing Goetz for $50 million wins I believe a $43 million settlement which Bernard Goetz still 30 years later has not paid and likely never will.
- [50:08]
Michelle Martin
It's interesting, we talked about the four young men. You weren't able to interview them in part because two of them are deceased. Right. So what happened to them?
- [50:18]
Anderson Cooper
I tried to recreate their stories as best I could without interviews with them. I got as far as speaking to two of the sisters of one of the young men. They all declined or I just couldn't get ahold of them. Now one ends up dying in prison in 2018. One sort of the most tragic of the stories ends up dying in an apparent suicide on the anniversary of the shooting. The 27th anniversary of the shooting.
- [50:44]
Michelle Martin
Right.
- [50:44]
Anderson Cooper
One ends up Brain damaged and is sort of away from the city and then one seems to have somewhat moved on with his life. I would have loved to have asked him sort of about his current existence, but he moved out of the city, apparently does not like coming back, and works as an auto mechanic and doing other things.
- [51:00]
Michelle Martin
But one of the things you point out though is that this wasn't just one case. This case is like other cases where it's not just about the facts themselves. You use this term yourself. It was a Rorschach test.
- [51:14]
Anderson Cooper
Yeah.
- [51:14]
Michelle Martin
About what safety means, who has the right to feel safe, what right do you have to do something about your lack of sense of safety, et cetera. So what are you left with after having spent so much time thinking about this? And also, it has to be said, with your own sort of history as a former prosecutor.
- [51:35]
Anderson Cooper
Yeah, I think things are just more complicated than we allow them to be or that we are willing to accept. I think Bernard Getz is a far more complicated, complicated figure than the world saw. Everybody saw this avenging hero and I saw from interviewing him and now being email buddies with them in some bizarre way, an odd, angry, complex man. Right. I think these were young men with family histories and so on, but became the face of black urban terror at the time. It can both be the case, Michelle, that New York City was historically and mythically rough at the time and that the subway was a frightening place and that the four individuals whom get shot with criminal records themselves did not do anything to deserve lethal force being used against them. It's just more complicated than either noble vigilante or vicious victims. And maybe it's somewhere in between the two. But I just think think it's very easy for the world to get reductive about virtually every story or case that we grew up with.
- [52:44]
Michelle Martin
And you point out that New York has changed, that the country has changed in some respects. I mean, there's been an African American president, the crime rate has fallen to historic lows. I mean, obviously we're in a sort of a different political moment. I wonder, and I don't know if you asked sort of Bernard Goetz, this question is, has he changed?
- [53:02]
Anderson Cooper
Oh, he has not changed. And if anything, you know, we all have have elderly relatives that calcify in their views over time, I think. And oh, I think he's gotten even more indignant about the shooting. I asked him when I interviewed him, do you feel you committed an act of public service? Cuz it sounds from all the interviews I've read of you that you feel you did something good. And he says, those guys needed shooting. That's not why I shot them, but they needed shooting. He almost seems an adverse for eugenics and believing that some people are just so irredeemable, that they're just not, they ought not be welcome as parts of society.
- [53:40]
Michelle Martin
An American tragedy, really, it's all tragic.
- [53:43]
Anderson Cooper
It's almost Shakespearean and for lack of a better way to put it, all of these were horribly tragic figures. Every certainly the five men and the city generally, but it's all just deeply tragic, profoundly tragic.
- [53:57]
Michelle Martin
Michelle Elliot Williams, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
- [53:59]
Anderson Cooper
Thank you.
- [54:01]
Bianna Golodryga
And finally, an extraordinary rescue and a true hero. A 13 year old boy in Australia swam for a staggering four hours to save his family after they got swept out to sea. Austin Appleby was with his mom and little brother and sister on inflatable kayaks and paddle boards when they got swept off the coast of Western Australia. Austin then swam 4km to shore facing massive waves. Not only that, but he then had to sprint 2km to find help. He said he was thinking happy thoughts to get him through the grueling swim. Take a listen. I was fighting rough seas because I thought I saw something in the water and I was really scared. I was just thinking, I was just.
- [54:44]
Julie K. Brown
Thinking in my head like thinking I.
- [54:46]
Bianna Golodryga
Was going to make it through.
- [54:47]
Julie K. Brown
But I was also thinking about all.
- [54:50]
Bianna Golodryga
My friends at school and friends of my Christian youth. And yeah, I just said, alright, not today, not today, not today. I have to keep on going. Wow. And keep on going. He did Austin's resilience and bravery, making sure his family got home safely. An example to all of us. He definitely deserves an extra helping of ice cream indefinitely.
- [55:18]
Rose Gottemoeller
Now.
- [55:18]
Bianna Golodryga
All right, that is it for us for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thank you so much for watching and goodbye from New York. What is it about Australia that just hits different Australia is where we shared our first kiss, where we fell in love.
- [55:49]
Anderson Cooper
The that was 18 years ago now.
- [55:52]
Bianna Golodryga
And this is what your fourth trip back.
- [55:54]
Anderson Cooper
Australia has this incredible way of drawing you back.
- [55:56]
Bianna Golodryga
The ocean, the people, the oysters. So good, so briny and delicious. And the possibility of exploring something new. Learn more about Zach and Laura's journey@australia.com and start planning the vacation of a.
- [56:11]
Anderson Cooper
Lifetime news cycle making your head spin. The have I Got News for your.
- [56:17]
Rose Gottemoeller
Crew is here to add help with a comic take on the week's headlines. New episodes, Saturdays at 9 on CNN.
- [56:24]
Anderson Cooper
And next day on the CNN App.