US Senator Bernie Sanders

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour – US Senator Bernie Sanders

Date: January 8, 2026
Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International Chief International Correspondent)
Guests: Senator Bernie Sanders, Chris Lockyer (MSF Secretary General), David Frum (The Atlantic)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Amanpour dives into critical U.S. and global issues:

• The domestic and political fallout after ICE agents killed an American woman in Minneapolis
• Rising tensions over Trump’s unilateral military actions in Venezuela and ambitions in Greenland
• Humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza and public health impacts of Israel’s aid restrictions
• The political energy of America’s Gen Z activists
• Broader ramifications for U.S. democracy, global order, and the credibility of official narratives

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1. Minneapolis Shooting by ICE & U.S. Immigration Policy

Main Theme:
A widely circulated video of ICE fatally shooting an American woman in Minneapolis ignites national outrage against the Trump administration's immigration enforcement tactics.

Key Points:

• The video contradicts Trump administration claims of self-defense.
• Local officials, including Minneapolis’s mayor, denounce ICE’s presence and tactics.
• The narrative is part of a broader trend of aggressive ICE action, often without due process.

Notable Quote:

"What happened in Minneapolis is outrageous. It's wrong. And as usual, the Trump administration is lying about what happened."
— Senator Bernie Sanders [05:11]

• Sanders calls for comprehensive immigration reform over “sending out a small army called ICE to harass, arrest, and yesterday shoot people.”
• Trump and DHS Secretary Kristi Noem branded the victim a "domestic terrorist," which Sanders rebuffs as a distortion.

Timestamps:

• [01:03] – Amanpour’s topic preview
• [02:51] – Mayor's (Zoran Mamdani) message: “ICE, get the F out of Minneapolis.”
• [05:11] – Sanders' condemnation & policy prescription

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2. Trump’s Use of Unilateral Military Power: Venezuela & Greenland

Main Theme:
The Trump administration bypasses Congress to conduct military operations in Venezuela, sparking constitutional and international concern, while suggesting Greenland should belong to the U.S.

Key Points:

• Congress was not consulted or notified in advance about the multi-pronged operation in Venezuela.
• Sanders and Senate Democrats push a resolution to reassert Congress’s constitutional war powers; a small number of Republicans support it.
• Trump frames intervention as pursuing U.S. interests, especially oil resources.

Notable Quotes:

"If you have a president who thinks that he can simply invade another country, you're giving a green light and a justification for any nation, any terrorist organization in the world to do the same."
— Senator Bernie Sanders [07:50]

"What Trump is saying: to hell with all of that. We have the power, we're going to take, we're going to do anything we want. Steal resources for the oil companies... all over the world, China and other countries understand that the future is not with fossil fuel and oil, given climate change, but the much less expensive sustainable energies like solar."
— Senator Bernie Sanders [11:04]

• Republican Senator Tom Tillis publicly denounces the administration's stance on Greenland as “amateurish behavior”.
• Sanders places Trump’s approach in a context of old-style imperialism, undermining international law and alliances.

Timestamps:

• [07:06] – War Powers issue & Venezuela
• [12:24] – GOP pushback on Greenland annexation
• [13:56] – Sanders calls for Republicans to stand up

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3. The New American Political Generation

Main Theme:
Amanpour addresses the political momentum from young, grassroots-driven politicians like NYC Mayor Zoran Mamdani, inspired by Sanders’ language and priorities.

Key Points:

• Sanders highlights severe U.S. wealth inequality, unaffordability of basics for much of the population, and a stale Democratic establishment.
• Gen Z and young progressive leaders are “organizing a grassroots movement” rather than simply campaigning on establishment platforms.

Notable Quote:

"He organizes a grassroots movement... he had 90,000 volunteers in New York City alone knocking on doors."
— Senator Bernie Sanders [15:08]

Timestamps:

• [14:34] – Introduction to new generation leaders
• [15:08] – Sanders on Mamdani & Gen Z organizing

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4. Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza: Aid Restrictions and NGO Ban

Main Theme:
Focus on Israel’s restrictions of humanitarian aid and expulsion of NGOs (notably MSF), worsening Gaza’s plight amid winter and a continued health crisis.

Guest: Chris Lockyer, MSF Secretary General

Key Points:

• Israel has revoked licenses for 37 NGOs, citing failure to comply with staff data requirements and concerns about possible Hamas infiltration.
• MSF refuses to share detailed staff lists with Israeli authorities who "have killed our staff."
• Humanitarian needs in Gaza and the West Bank vastly outstrip the current capacity, which is deteriorating due to restrictions.

Notable Quotes:

"We've been asked to provide information about our staff to the people who have killed our staff."
— Chris Lockyer [22:31]

"Humanitarian assistance is a fundamental obligation under international humanitarian law. It is not optional, it is not to be caveated or conditional."
— Chris Lockyer [25:52]

Timestamps:

• [22:20] – Start of Lockyer’s segment
• [24:24] – Humanitarian aid as political manipulation
• [29:58] – Grave shortages of medicine, food, water
• [31:32] – NGOs being weaponized; registry constraints
• [34:06] – Impact on West Bank operations
• [35:14] – Update on Ukraine’s parallel winter crisis

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5. Venezuela: Power, Corruption, and U.S. Strategy

Segment:
In-depth conversation with David Frum, The Atlantic, on Trump’s Venezuela intervention and its political narrative

Main Theme:
Despite Trump's claims, the U.S. operation in Venezuela is likely driven by ulterior motives, including oil and possible self-enrichment, not simple national interest.

Key Points:

• Removal of Maduro is “dictator change,” not “regime change”—most regime elements and corrupt structures remain in place.
• Frum debunks economic rationales for seizing Venezuelan oil as impractical and costly.
• Trump’s critics are failing by focusing on legal procedural arguments rather than the evident self-serving and corrupt motives behind administration policy.

Notable Quotes:

"What Trump wants you to believe is this is a patriotic operation… and now there’s just a lot of petty carping about international law, which no true American would ever care about."
— David Frum [41:28]

"We don't have a presidency that has scandals. We have a scandal that is running a presidency. The scandal is the story."
— David Frum [46:34]

• Frum calls for a Congressional resolution to block any unilateral attack on NATO allies, and recognition/aid for Venezuela’s legitimate government.

Timestamps:

• [37:39] – Frum on Maduro’s capture and U.S. motives
• [38:37] – Economic futility of seizing Venezuela’s oil
• [43:30] – Critics “bogged down in legalisms”
• [44:37] – Congressional and institutional complicity
• [47:44] – Frum’s recommendations for Congressional action
• [51:03] – On drugs as a scapegoat for deeper U.S. social problems

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6. Notable, Memorable Moments

• Bernie Sanders’ blunt language:
  "You cannot break the law for your own reasons." ([13:56])
• Chris Lockyer’s humanitarian plea:
  "We need to be providing more, not less, humanitarian assistance." ([29:58])
• David Frum’s striking summary:
  "We have a scandal that is running a presidency." ([46:34])

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7. Final Reflections & Broader Global Worries

Closing Segment:
Amanpour reflects on the anxiety felt by U.S. allies amid Trump’s unpredictability, exemplified by the uncertainty over Greenland, and projects how even spectacular phenomena like Greenland’s aurora are small solace in times of global instability.

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Summary Table of Key Segments with Timestamps

| Segment | Time | Key Participants | Highlights | |-------------------------------------- |--------------- |----------------------- |------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Domestic outrage post-ICE shooting | 01:03–07:06 | Sanders, Amanpour | Condemnation of ICE; push for immigration reform | | War Powers & Venezuela | 07:06–13:56 | Sanders, Amanpour | Congressional showdown, imperialism critique | | GOP/Republican dissent (Greenland) | 12:24–13:56 | Sanders, Tillis | GOP pushback against executive overreach | | Gen Z grassroots activism | 14:34–16:50 | Sanders, Amanpour | Rise of young progressives, Mamdani’s campaign | | Gaza humanitarian crisis | 22:20–36:07 | Amanpour, Lockyer | MSF aid work, NGO expulsion, medical shortages, aid weaponization | | Venezuela coup analysis | 37:39–52:53 | Michelle Martin, Frum | Contradictory official rationales, economic and legalistic arguments |

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Tone & Language

• Forthright, deeply critical of Trump administration’s motives and credibility.
• Empathetic and urgent on humanitarian crises.
• Analytical, referencing historical context (imperialism, U.S. constitutional law).
• At times blunt and passionate, particularly from Sanders and Frum.

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For Listeners

This episode is a can’t-miss for those interested in U.S. constitutional norms, humanitarian law, grassroots political change, and the rapidly shifting balance of power and influence on the global stage. Through a blend of incisive interviews and powerful testimony, Amanpour lays bare the stakes in today’s crises at home and abroad—reminding us that, as Frum puts it, the true scandal is not one-off, but systemic and transformative.

Transcript

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

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[Christiana Amanpour]

Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. Fear and outrage in America after a woman is shot dead by ICE agents. I'll ask Senator Bernie Sanders for his reaction. And about Trump's moves in Venezuela. Can the Senate stop the president from making further military interventions? Then suffering in Gaza? Homeless Palestinians face horrendous winter conditions while Israel continues to restrict aid and bans NGOs like MSF. Its secretary general will join me. Plus, are Trump's critics falling into an obvious trap? Bush speechwriter David Frum thinks so, and he tells Michelle Martin why. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiana Wampour. In London, at home and abroad, the actions of the Trump administration have put the United States and its allies further on edge. Protests in Minneapolis today over the harrowing videos broadcast everywhere. Take a look. No, no shit. Showing those who are taking the pictures yelling for ICE to stop. It shows the fatal shooting of an American woman by an ICE agent. Trump and other federal officials defended the shooting as an act of self defense, but witnesses say otherwise, as do the city's mayor and the state's governor. He is the mayor.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I have a message for ICE to ice. Get the F out of Minneapolis. We do not want you here.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Unambiguous message there. Meanwhile, the president's international ambitions grow bolder. Continuing to insist that Greenland should be America's and now saying that US Oversight of Venezuela could last years. Senators were finally briefed by Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Wednesday. There's a split emerging along party lines about the legality and goals of the administration's military action there. And their European allies have a message for them, too. Poland is urging the US Congress to weigh in on Trump's ambition to control Greenland, a Danish territory and NATO ally. And today, France's President Macron had a sober warning about relying on America.

[David Frum]

We live in a world of great power with a real temptation to divide up the world.

[Christiana Amanpour]

And I believe what has happened in.

[David Frum]

Recent months or even in recent days.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Has done nothing to change this observation. And so that is the great risk.

[David Frum]

To the international order in which we live. The United States is an established power, but one that is gradually turning away.

[Christiana Amanpour]

From some of its allies and breaking.

[Chris Lockyer]

Free from the international rules that until.

[David Frum]

Recently, it was promoting.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Now, therefore, there is much authority for the US Congress to claw back right now. A little earlier, Senator Bernie Sanders joined me just before he was pulled away for a vote on a resolution that would force Trump to seek congressional approval for any further military intervention against Venezuela. Senator Sanders, welcome to the program.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Good to be with you.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You know, it's been a very, very turbulent first week to this new year. I want to start by what's happening in, you know, American backyard right now, and that is in Minneapolis, where there's been these ongoing clashes between protesters and ICE because of this incident in which ICE shot dead a American citizen. And the video does not appear to show there was any need for that. Could you please describe for me what you are thinking about this? What needs to be next steps?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, look, this has everything to do. What happened in Minneapolis is outrageous. It's wrong. And as usual, the Trump administration is lying about what happened. But overall, it reflects a policy of the Trump administration that they are going after many, many hundreds of thousands of people in this country, undocumented people, often without due process, sometimes American citizens. To my mind, what we have got to do, and I think most Americans understand, is we need to move to comprehensive immigration reform, not send out a small army called ICE to harass, arrest, and yesterday shoot people. That is not what this country is supposed to be about.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You know, it's extraordinary. The president himself has sent out, you know, messages on his website, you know, saying that the woman violently, willfully and viciously ran over the ICE officer, which the video does not seem to show at all. You've had Kristi Noem, the DHS secretary, calling her a domestic terrorist. And you have ice, which is, you know, described to have been empowered as a bit of a personal militia for the Trump administration. Tell me about this.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, I mean, the President of the United States lies is not something new. Just a few days ago on January 6th, the anniversary of the insurrection, where people attempted to overthrow the United States government, do away with the. An election he, you know, reversed. He made it clear that he gave the opinion this was a peaceful protest and blame Democrats. It's a, it's a scary situation. And what we have now is a very well armed, very significantly increased force of ICE agents who are operating under a president who is doing very bad things.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, let me ask you, because you said that obviously his supporters will say he's doing very good things. But you are going into a vote, you just told me, on a very important matter, which is Congress's obligations and constitutional duties regarding war powers and approving and discussing these kinds of things. So what do you think is going to happen in this vote? Will you win?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, we'll find out soon enough. But look, here is the issue. In the Constitution of the United States, it is the Congress that has the authority to declare war. The President. This was not an emergency. This was not a situation like Pearl harbor or 9, 11, nobody attacked the United States. This was a premeditated effort. They probably planned it for months. The Congress not only was not, did not give authorization, authorization for this act, they didn't even know about it. So this is a president acting unilaterally in violation of the Constitution and the rule of law. What worries me very much, Christian, is if you have a president who thinks that he can simply invade another country, you're giving a green light and a justification for any nation, any terrorist organization in the world to do the same. I mean, the goal of what has been tried Since World War II, you know, World War II, 50 million people died, and leaders all over the world came together and said, all right, look, how do we end this horror of war? Did they succeed? Completely? Certainly not. But there has not been a war in Europe since Putin's invasion of Ukraine. That's a big deal. And what Trump is basically saying, look, I am powerful. I can do whatever I want. If I want Venezuela's oil, I'm going to get Venezuela's oil. And what that does, I think, is make the world more unstable. It's a justification for Putin. How are you going to criticize Putin for his invasion of Ukraine? What do you have to say for China if China gets involved in military adventurism or any other country? So it is that to Me is the most dangerous aspect of what Trump has done. Unleashing anarchy around the world, saying to any country on earth, you can do whatever you want, undermining the international organizations, the international rule of law. It's a serious concern.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So you got a briefing yesterday by, I think it was an all senator briefing from Secretary Rubio. I don't know whether there are others, but, but he.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I did not go to that briefing, as a matter of fact. Okay, I.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Do you know about it?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah. Well, you know, I know what the justification of it is. That Madero is a bad guy. No kidding. This guy is a dictator, he's corrupt, he lost the last election. You know, he is absolutely a bad news guy. And that's justification. Oil was quote, unquote taken from the United States oil companies. You know, the oil of Venezuela belongs to the people of Venezuela. He's a drug dealer. Well, if most of that stuff goes to Europe, it's cocaine. You don't invade another country because they break international American drug laws. So, you know, their justification for this is pretty weak. Bottom line is the United States is very powerful. Trump believes he could do anything he wants. He's withdrawing from all kinds of international organization organizations. And I think that sets a very dangerous situation.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Okay, so several Democratic senators, including Gallego and Murphy have called it. Yesterday's a BS briefing. This is an insane plan. They're proposing to steal Venezuela's oil at gunpoint forever and use that leverage to run the country. You've just spoken about that. Obviously, GOP senators have a different view and they support it, by and large. What is there to stop Trump, though? You've had his deputy chief of staff.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Let me just, let me just back up a little bit here. I mean, what we are talking about is not only the breaking of international law and international anarchy, you're talking about old fashioned imperialism and all that. That is throughout the history of the world. England, Spain, Portugal, way back when, powerful nations went into poor, undeveloped areas and just exploited their resources. They were powerful, they were able to do that. And what we have seen in the last hundred years in Africa, in Latin America is an effort for people in those countries to stand up and say, you know what, these are our countries. You can't overthrow our governments, you can't run our governments, you can't steal our natural resources. We have to control our own future. And what Trump is saying, to hell with all of that. We have the power, we're going to take, we're going to do anything we want. Steel resources for the oil companies. Not to mention that again, all over the world, China and other countries understand that the future is not with fossil fuel and oil, given climate change, but the much less expensive sustainable energies like solar. So he's propping up the oil industry at a time when we got to move away from, from fossil fuel. So on top of everything else, that's pretty crazy.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Can I, can I just play. I know you have Tehran, but I want to play you something that a Republican senator, Tom Tillis, said when he started to threaten Greenland that for everybody, including here in Europe, is a step too far.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Mr. President, I'm also here to talk about what I think is amateurish behavior with respect to the treatment of our NATO allies. And it has to start with an interview that I saw with one of the president's senior policy advisors, Stephen Miller on CNN a couple of nights ago. Mr. Miller said that the US government, obviously Greenland, should be part of the US that that is absurd. Folks, amateur hour is over. You don't speak on behalf of this US Senator or the Congress. You can say it may be the position of the president of the United States that Greenland should be a part of the United States, but it's not the position of this government because we are a co equal branch. And if that were come to pass, there would be a vote on the floor to make it real, not the surreal sort of environment that some deputy chief of staff thinks was cute to say on tv.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Are Republicans getting exercised by some of this unilateral power muscle flexing around the world?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Cristiano? I surely hope so. We have an authoritarian president who ignores the Constitution of the United States, acts in illegal ways virtually every day. And what has disappointed me is there are Republicans in the Senate and the House who know better. And it's long time is long overdue for those guys to start standing up to Trump and saying, you know what? You cannot break the law for your own reasons. So I would hope that some of my Republican friends and colleagues will begin to stand up to Trump.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I want to talk about domestic politics for a moment. The mayor of New York, Zoran Mamdani, he has called you his longtime mentor and you swore him in in New York on January 1st. He recently told the nation, I would not be here were it not for Bernie Sanders. He gave me the language with which to describe my own politics a decade ago and he talked about knocking on doors for you in, in 2020, et cetera. Tell me about this new wave of young American politics that seems to be shaking up Gen Z and seems to be really. They have their finger on the pulse.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Look, in America today, we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had. And while the billionaires are becoming richer, 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. It may shock the people in Europe, but there are people in America who cannot afford food, cannot afford health care, cannot afford housing. Costa, housing is off the charts. And you've had a Democratic establishment that has not paid attention to the needs of the working class. So you have somebody like Zaran Mamdani who comes forward and says, you know what? We got to deal with the real issues facing working people. And not only does he talk about the real issues facing the working class in New York City, he does what Democratic establishment folks don't do. He organizes a grassroots movement. So what's to me extraordinary is that he had 90,000 volunteers in New York City alone knocking on doors. 90,000 people. A real grassroots movement. And I think you're beginning to see that coast to coast, where ordinary people are saying, you know what? We can take on the billionaire class. We need an agenda that speaks to the needs of workerless health care as a human right. Lowering the cost of housing, improving our educational system, raising wages for the working class of this country. So I think Mamdani's victory was not only important for New York City, it really is an inspiration to people all over the country. And I was proud to be a little part of that.

[Christiana Amanpour]

All right, now I know you're going.

[Michelle Martin]

To go and do your.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I apologize. I've got to run.

[Christiana Amanpour]

You go. Go do that. Do the War Powers Act. Let's see what happens.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Okay, Take care. Bye bye.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, off he went. And now we know what the results are. A small but significant block of Republicans did break with the President, did vote with Sanders and all Senate Democrats to allow a future vote on the resolution on truth Social. President Trump fumed at the five GOP senators, saying they should never be elected to office again. Now, with America's intentions in Venezuela far from clear, the people there are facing a deeply uncertain future. One man who could play a role in determining their fate was Nicolas Maduro's interior minister. And he was also listed second on the US Indictment accusing Maduro of drug trafficking. Paula Newton has more on him.

[Paula Newton]

Deosdado Cabello Rondon, a man Venezuelans have come to know and fear. Surrounded by security forces, defiant in the face of US Actions. With an ominous warning for the country, treason will not be tolerated. Cabello remains the second in command in Venezuela and For years, he has cultivated a menacing image, even when he was the President of the National Assembly. His talk show Con El Mazo Dando Striking with the Hammer, was never subtle in the devotion it demanded to the regime. For decades, he has led a vast array of security and intelligence forces. Militias, paramilitary groups, and neighborhood enforcers known as colectivos. He is also the vice president and Minister of security in charge of the National Police. Pitch these at the National Guard and the police, all ordered many times to battle and intimidate their own citizens. In years reporting from Venezuela, we witnessed everything from the National Guard taking on protesters to the fa, the special forces on local streets rooting out resistance to authority, their activities denounced by the UN With Cabello himself dictating much of the enforcement powers. He is an indicted co conspirator along with Nicolas Maduro. Cabello has rejected these accusations, and for now, he remains at the side of Acting President Delse Rodriguez as her interior minister and a fierce defender of Maduro's legacy. American investigators describe him as one of the most powerful individuals in Venezuela. But the US has now turned the.

[Chris Lockyer]

Tables and he's just been hit with violence that is a thousand times greater than anything that he can bring to bear.

[David Frum]

So he's in this, really, his head spinning.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

It's so ironic because for years and.

[Chris Lockyer]

Years and years, these people have been.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Telling us that the gringos were coming.

[David Frum]

CIA was here, that they were sabotaging.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

The electricity grid and all the rest.

[Chris Lockyer]

It was all boring.

[David Frum]

But now the gringos really are here. I mean, the CIA really is here.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

And the fleet's offshore, and all this bravado, all this, yeah, come and get.

[Chris Lockyer]

Me kind of thing.

[David Frum]

They've seen how that worked out for Maduro.

[Chris Lockyer]

Right.

[Paula Newton]

And so how will he react to the Trump administration's demands? CNN has learned that he and other leaders have been ordered to cut ties with US Adversaries like Iran, Russia, Cuba and China, as well as cooperate on counter narcotics and crucially, oversee oil sales to the United States. Cabello's next moves will be closely scrutinized. He was dependably ruthless and shrewd with Maduro in power, emboldened by a security apparatus that remains at his disposal even now.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Well, that was an important reality check. These people, whose intentions are still unclear, now working with the United States. Stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break.

[David Frum]

Doctor Ravi is back in the pit for another shift. The prodigal son returns and we're going with him. I'm Dr. Alok Patel, a physician, journalist, and a fan of medical storytelling. And I'm Hunter Harris, a screenwriter and cultural critic, and we are the hosts of the official companion podcast from HBO Max. We'll be here every week to talk about each episode with the actors, writers, everyone who helps bring the Pit to life. Find us on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Now, just look at these pictures. This is winter in Gaza, and its children are freezing in flooded tents and many are lucky even to have a tent. Israel continues to restrict them, plus tarpaulins and temporary housing, which are vital after so many in the enclave have lost their homes in Israel's bombing campaign. Since the ceasefire came into effect in October, more than 300 Palestinians have been killed by Israel in Gaza, according to the United Nations. Meanwhile, Israel has revoked the licenses of 37 international NGOs working in Gaza and on the occupied west bank, saying that they failed to meet requirements under new registration rules. MSF is one of those organizations and its Secretary General, Chris Lockyer, is joining me now from Paris. Welcome to the program.

[Chris Lockyer]

Thank you, Christian. Thanks for having me on.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Chris Lockyer, what, excuse me, are these new registrations? What have you failed to adhere to? What's going on?

[Chris Lockyer]

Well, yeah, I mean, what we've been through is a very complex few days, and essentially what we've been told is that our registration is, is no longer valid. The accusation at the core of this situation is around providing information about our staff lists to the Israeli authorities. Now, let's put this a little bit in context. What we have in amongst the absolutely catastrophic humanitarian situation that you were just talking about is a situation whereby there have been over 500 humanitarian workers who have been killed. Fifteen of our own workers have been killed. And we've been asked to provide information about our staff to the people who have killed our staff. And so we are in a situation of wanting to understand how this information is going to be used at the core of this point. And we've been in discussion with the Israeli authorities for several months now, and we're still in conversation with the Israeli authorities. At the core of our, of our point here is that we have an obligation to the duty of care to as much as possible, the safety of our staff and our teams who are in every day, every day providing essential humanitarian assistance to the population of Gaza. And that's really what is at the core of the issue here.

[Christiana Amanpour]

So let me just play devil's advocate, because you remember after October 7th, the Israeli government accused NGOs, and most notably the UN, of actually having Hamas members or affiliates or some kind of Hamas infiltration or hiring in their ranks. Obviously, the UN denied that, but that has been a thing with the Israeli government. Is that what they're saying to you? Is that what you think this is about?

[Chris Lockyer]

Well, actually, what I think this is fundamentally about is about the manipulation and the instrumental of humanitarian assistance. And that's a factor that we've seen throughout this war. And I think what it is essentially is a distraction from the situation in the Gaza Strip. I mean, there has been, since this war started, over 70,000 people killed, over 170,000 people injured. As you're saying, as you were just saying since the ceasefire, the violence continues on a daily basis. So I think it is about the manipulation of humanitarian assistance. Now the accusations are there are coming. I would say at the moment there is a propaganda campaign against humanitarian organizations, against msf, against dozens of other humanitarian organizations, which is essentially undermining the work that we do and as a consequence, putting our staff and our activities in, in acute danger.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Christopher Lockyer, what happens if you, the 37 NGOs who deliver humanitarian aid and essentially keep Gaza afloat, because that's all there is there. What happens when you're not there? Who will do what needs to keep body and soul together? Is the Israeli government going to do it? Are there other. What will happen to the people of Gaza?

[Chris Lockyer]

Well, that's essentially our question too. I mean, let me put that a little bit in terms of context as one of the dozens of humanitarian organizations who are still trying to operate in Gaza, because we do want to continue to be able to provide emergency medical assistance to the population of Gaza. In 2025 alone, MSF carried out 800,000 outpatient consultations. We treated 100,000 trauma cases, we supported 10,000 deliveries, and we provided over 700 million liters of water. We support 1 in 5 of the hospital beds in Gaza and we support 1 in 3 of the mothers giving birth on a daily basis in Gaza. So that is, and that is just one of the many humanitarian organizations who are facing this awful situation at the moment. What we need to see in the Gaza Strip is an increase of humanitarian assistance, not a decrease of humanitarian assistance. And that humanitarian assistance is a fundamental obligation under international humanitarian law. It is not optional, it is not to be caveated or conditional. The people of the Gaza Strip need a flood. Still a massive increase of humanitarian assistance, Even despite the 90 days of ceasefire that we've seen recently.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Now, you gave us some numbers, very important numbers of. We have these stats and I want to Put them up and read them. So MSF provides funding in international staff for six hospitals, runs two field hospitals and eight primary health care centers, clinics and medical points. Runs two of Gaza's five stabilization centers, helping children with severe malnutrition and treat, as you said, 100,000 trauma cases, perform surgeries on 10,000 patients. Handled a third of Gaza's birth in. Has 60 international staffers in the west bank and Gaza and more than 1,200 local staff, mostly medical professionals. Now, that sounds like a lot. And of course, there are 37 groups that we're talking about. The Israeli government says you all represent, quote, only a small slice of aid delivery and that Gaza can manage without them. Is that correct?

[Chris Lockyer]

I fundamentally disagree with that point. And particularly if we look at the situation at the moment, as we've gone into the, the winter season, we're seeing an increase in diarrheal diseases, we're seeing an increase in respiratory infections, infections in general. You know, there are 1.3 million people in need of emergency shelter. That is not getting through now. There should be more. We could do more. The humanitarian community as a whole could do more if we're allowed to do that in an unrestricted way, which allows not just the supplies to come in, but our staff to able to be, operate and flexible and provide assistance where it's most needed on a daily basis. So there is need for more. Absolutely. And we can provide that. And as a humanitarian community in general, we can provide that more aid if the restrictions are lifted and we can have a predictable, solid, safe presence in the Gaza Strip.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Can I just ask you, because there are other requirements that Israel is making of you all, but I just want to know right now, because we obviously, we see pictures, they're on social media, we still are not able to get, which is an unacceptable situation that we continue to protest. But there are pictures that are coming out and, you know, we are just sort of struck by how so many people, including children, are left sloshing around in freezing water. Freezing, dirty water. You know, we're told that, for instance, the Al Shifa Hospital is having a hugely difficult time with kidney transplants and many people, they say, are dying due to the lack of proper treatment. Just give me a sense of food, medicine, clean water, this kind of, you know, specialized treatment like kidney dialysis. Is that being provided?

[Chris Lockyer]

Well, I think what we need to realize is that there needs to be more of everything, so there needs to be more of the complex medical services. Kidney dialysis, it can be complicated, if not impossible to Bring in basic support equipment, such as autoclaves into the Gaza Strip because they're seen as some of these dual items which are very complex and difficult to be able to bring in, that often refused, often randomly, to be able to be able to bring those in. At the same time, we are in a situation where you mentioned the food crisis there. There is still 76% of the population who are in food crisis in Gaza. So it is the whole breadth of medical services and humanitarian services in general which are needed and needed now. It's really quite hard to be able to articulate the level of catastrophe that is still present in Gaza. And as I was saying originally, I think a lot of these conversations about registration is really distracting from what is the fundamental issue at the moment, which is that the humanitarian situation in Gaza is nothing short of catastrophic. The humanitarian organizations are providing a critical lifeline into the Gaza Strip. It is not enough. We can do more, but at the moment it's being restricted further. Since January 1, we have not been able to bring in any supplies and we have not been able to bring in any international workers into the Gaza Strip. So it's getting harder, not easier, but we need to be providing more and not less humanitarian assistance.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Okay, so I just need to ask you to follow up on what you said. You believe humanitarian aid and NGOs are being weaponized. That's what. That's the word you used at the beginning of the interview. And I note also that Israel, Israel can also refuse registry to organizations or revoke their approval to work in Israel if they or their staff members publish calls to boycott Israel in the past seven years. If there's a reasonable basis to assume that they oppose Israel's existence as a Jewish democratic state, if they incite racism or support armed struggle against the state of Israel or actively advanced delegitimization activities against the state of Israel, denying the Holocaust and the atrocities of Hamas attack on October 7 are also grounds to withhold approval. So have you ever had that kind of standard put before you, either in Israel or by other, you know, governments who have their own political and ideological, you know, missions?

[Chris Lockyer]

No, I don't think so. I mean, what we are is a humanitarian medical organization. Our objective over the last 50 years now is to be able to provide humanitarian assistance to patients who need it the most. And basically, that is it. That is our objective. We do also bear witness to what we're seeing in front of us. And what we have seen in front of us in the Gaza Strip has been a catastrophic situation. We have seen over 70,000 people killed. There are not international journalists allowed to come into the Gaza Strip. We would highly advocate for that, to be allowed to be able to speak about what we're seeing. But those are our objectives are to provide medical assistance to the people in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere in the world, in Sudan, in Yemen and drc, and when necessary, to talk about the horrors that we're seeing. And we have been seeing horrors in the Gaza Strip, and we continue to see people being killed and the medical implications of that on a daily basis.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Can I just ask you about the west bank, where you also have, you know, humanitarian staff there. There's just day after day reports of killings and injuries, of burning down and, you know, destroying Palestinian farmland, olive trees, grazing cattle, the rest of it, or sheep and grabbing land. What do you hear from your people that's happening on the occupied West Bank?

[Chris Lockyer]

Well, as you describe, it is really a very horrible situation for the vast majority of Palestinians in the West Bank. And that is also becoming more complicated over the last few days as well. Since this registration issue has really come to the surface. It is becoming even harder for us to operate in the west bank as well. So at the same time as the really catastrophic humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip, we're seeing it becoming harder and harder to be able to maintain our activities and our presence in the west bank as well.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I just have a last one to ask you about Ukraine, because I think you just returned from Ukraine close to the Eastern front, where the situation is also catastrophic. It's freezing cold. The Russians are continuing their advance. Well, they're continuing to try, and they are pummeling the energy infrastructure, which obviously in the winter is even worse than it would be in any other time. Tell me a little bit about what you're seeing over there and what kind of aid is reaching people in Dnipro and elsewhere.

[Chris Lockyer]

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the key dynamics at the moment that we're seeing is, as you were describing, is the attacks on the energy infrastructure, the electrical infrastructure in particular. I mean, there was one day where I visited two medical facilities, two hospitals, and an ambulance dispatch site. And all of them were under the sort of the terror of not knowing when the electricity would be, the electricity supply would be cut off, or the ambulance site was operating in the dark. And so there is this really complicated situation whereby the humanitarian needs are being increased by the attacks on the energy infrastructure. And at the same time, they're being complicated by the attacks on the energy infrastructure as well. There's Also questions in terms of the.

[Christiana Amanpour]

We're running out of. I'm really sorry. I just wanted to get a last word on the Ukraine situation. And we'll keep following up, but especially on your situation with being deregistered for Gaza. Let's hope some humanitarian aid does actually get through because they need it. Christopher Locklear, thank you so much indeed. And we'll be right back after this short break. Welcome to our ugly home.

[David Frum]

Ready is back for a historically hideous season.

[Michelle Martin]

It's our 100th ugly house.

[David Frum]

This place is mayhem.

[Christiana Amanpour]

That is impressive.

[David Frum]

And if these walls could talk. Do you cry a lot?

[Paula Newton]

I do.

[David Frum]

They'd have a lot to say.

[Christiana Amanpour]

What in God's name is this pit?

[David Frum]

Don't get too close. No, you've seen the show.

[Christiana Amanpour]

I'm scared of that.

[David Frum]

Ugliest house in America. All new Wednesday at 8 on HGTV. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're going to explore how your diet can shape your face, how you can boost your stamina like Olympians, just by how you breathe, and how your child's nighttime breathing can impact their development. Most importantly, we cover practical and immediately actionable ways to improve our health one breath at a time, even the way that your tongue is currently sitting in your mouth. Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiana Amanpour]

Now. As President Trump mulls staying and running Venezuela for many years, our next guest argues his critics are falling into an obvious trap with their response to Maduro's capture and the subsequent subsequent fallout. In a new essay, the Atlantic's David Frum warns that opponents of the administration are getting bogged down in the legalities of the military operation. And he's joining Michelle Martin to explain why he thinks Trump's critics are getting it all wrong and why their message keeps failing to break through.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Christiane. David Frum, thank you so much for talking with us.

[David Frum]

Thank you.

[Michelle Martin]

You've been writing extensively about the US Incursion strike into Venezuela, seizing Nicolas Maduro and his wife, bringing him back to the US to stand trial, ostensibly for involvement in drug trafficking. Before we dig into a specific piece I wanted to talk about, I just wanted to ask you, overall, what's your sense of that mission? What do you think?

[David Frum]

People use the phrase regime change, but what we actually seem to have seen here is dictator change. The regime remains attacked. Nicolas Maduro is not a charismatic dictator of the Fidel Castro type. He's an inheritor of a repressive military authoritarian system that was built by his Predecessor Hugo Chavez, who took power in the 1990s. So this regime has been there for 30 years. Maduro was the second in line. He inherited after Chavez died of cancer, and the system preceded him and can outlast him. So by removing him from the system, you don't necessarily change very much unless you change other things about the system, too. But the Trump administration seems quite determined to leave the rest of that system intact, because I think they believe this seems to be the thread of rationality, is the other people in the system are more amenable to pressure and maybe even more corrupt than Nicolas Maduro, as they can do business with them while refusing to do anything to bring the legitimate, democratically elected government of Venezuela back to power. Venezuela had an election a year ago. It was intended to be a fake, but the will of the people was so strong that it overwhelmed the fake. And we now have a legitimate President of Venezuela recognized by the United States and other democratic countries.

[Michelle Martin]

So do you buy the administration's rationale for this? They're calling it, they're saying this isn't a war. So they didn't have to notify Congress or seek congressional approval. They're saying it's a law enforcement operation to basically interdict or interrupt a drug trafficking operation. Do you buy it?

[David Frum]

Well, which one do I buy? Because I think there are at least three explanations of what has happened and they contradict one another. So I can't believe them all. And when there are three different ones, I'm probably inclined to believe none of them. One rationale is, yes, this is a law enforcement operation to seize somebody who's been indicted by United States court. Another is, no, no, no, this is an anti drug operation intended to stop the flow of drugs from Venezuela to the rest of the world. No, no, no, this is a war for oil, intended to seize Venezuela's oil resources and annex them to the United States those can't.

[Michelle Martin]

Or to recover oil resources that were improperly taken 20 years ago.

[David Frum]

That's enough. That maybe that's now four so different people have. The Vice President has put forth an explanation. The President has put forth an explanation. The Secretary of State has put forth an explanation. The Secretary of Defense or Secretary of War, as he likes to style himself, has put forward forward an explanation. But they're all contradictory. So which one should I believe?

[Michelle Martin]

There are a lot of reasons why people object. People from across the political spectrum are objecting to what just occurred here. But one of the things that you're saying in your piece which got my attention is you're saying that Trump's critics are falling into an obvious trap. What is the trap?

[David Frum]

What Trump wants you to believe is this is a patriotic operation done by the skilled armed forces of the United States to serve an American national interest, and was heroically and faultlessly executed. And now there's just a lot of petty carping wood international law, which no true American would ever care about. And it's just a lot of legalistic gibberish that is standing in the way of appreciating the great patriotic achievement. And one of the things I'm trying to say is, whatever this was, this was not done for the national interest. My guess, and this is only a guess, is that this oil talk reveals something real. I mean, obviously, seizing Venezuela's oil makes no economic sense for the United States.

[Michelle Martin]

We'll stop there for a second. Why not?

[David Frum]

The present price of oil is $58 a barrel. The United States of America is the largest producer of oil in the world at $58 a barrel. American producers, many of them, have trouble breaking even. Add Canada, which used to be a friend of the United States, and North America, produces 28% of all the oil produced in the world. The idea that you need another million barrels a day is crazy, especially when you consider how much will it cost to bring Venezuela's oil to market? The Venezuela oil reserves are located in jungly terrain in the far east of the country. There's been no meaningful investment there for 30 years. There aren't enough roads. It's heavy oil which has to be brought to the. It doesn't bubble spontaneously to the surface. You have to inject steam into the ground to bring the oil to the top. Steam takes place. Electricity. Guess what? There aren't a lot of. In the jungles of eastern Venezuela, hydroelectric power plants or grids to connect them, or pumping stations. There aren't adequate security. So if there are insurgencies or guerrillas there, the whole thing is just bonkers. So for the tiny. For a fraction of the cost it would take to bring any Venezuelan oil to market, you can bring a lot more US Or Canadian oil to market. And the problem is the market is saying, at $58 a barrel, actually, you know what? We got enough. We don't need more.

[Michelle Martin]

You've managed to articulate this in a very few minutes. You say that Trump's critics are getting it wrong. Where are they getting it wrong?

[David Frum]

They're getting bogged down in legalisms. Because when you say this is about how Maduro was arrested, or when you say anything that carries any whiff of defense of this terrible dictator. You're allowing Trump to stage a false argument as if it were the true one. You're allowing him to claim what has happened here is not something done for the national interest. There is some, and we'll learn more about it. There's some shady element to all of this, and that's the place where you need to focus. And the problem is we're all kind of conservative in a small c sense. We all want to remember arguments we used to have and to think about a normal American presidency who does things for a normal American way. And it's just hard for people in Congress, a big institution, hard for people in the media to say, you know what, there's probably a corrupt motive here. And even if it's not immediately obvious what that corrupt motive is, just wait 72 hours and it will become obvious. But don't start with the premise that what you're seeing here is Iraq or Panama or one of those previous struggles replayed. This is something different. This is about somebody having a get rich quick scheme and we just need to. It'll take a little while to discover who that somebody is.

[Michelle Martin]

And they're sort of statements. Initially, most Republicans were on board, Most Republicans supported it, and Democrats are skeptical. But there are some Republicans who have expressed the same doubts that you have, who said that this doesn't make sense according to the market. It doesn't make sense according to past patterns of behavior. I mean, the president just pardoned the former president of Honduras who was convicted of trafficking enormous amounts of drugs into the United States, convicted in an American court. And so they've pointed out the inconsistencies that you have pointed out. They've pointed out it makes no sense from a market perspective. Do you think any of those arguments are penetrating?

[David Frum]

I think there's a habit here. So there is a long tradition, going back to George Washington's time, of arguments between more interventionists and more isolationist Americans. Those are very familiar arguments, complicated arguments, a lot of good faith on both sides. And I think there are people who would like to support Trump who want to see us revert to the interventionist versus isolationist argument and say, well, President Trump pretended to be an isolationist, now he's acting as an interventionist. He's contradicting himself. But at least we're back in our familiar landscape and we don't have to adjust to the strange new world in which we live, where those arguments are not relevant to what's happening now. Trump is planning, apparently or it's rumored or reported or claimed by members of the administration to follow up what he did in Venezuela by doing a Pearl harbor on Denmark. Now, whatever that is, that's not a part of our old isolationist versus interventionist arguments anymore, because there's never been an interventionist in American history said what intervention means is doing a Pearl harbor on a NATO ally.

[Michelle Martin]

So, so the question then becomes though, if the arguments are as clear as you have articulated, why aren't more people making them?

[David Frum]

Because back of what I'm saying are some really upsetting things that we don't like to think about. I mean, a lot of people were critical of this administration saying, yeah, it's corrupt, it's corrupt, but there are other things going on. If you take that argument seriously, it's very upsetting. We don't have a presidency that has scandals. We have a scandal that is running a presidency. The scandal is the story and there are many particular scandals. But there's one big scandal which is a president and his family using the office for self enrichment on a scale not only never seen in American history, but never seen in the history of any democratic country at all. You have to look to post colonial Africa or post Soviet Union to see comparable scale, billion dollar scales of self enrichment. And we want to believe that the country we grew up in, that we loved, the institutions we revere, are there. And it's just hard, it's just hard to take on board the scale of what has been done to American institutions, especially in the second Trump presidency. But generally since 2016, what should members.

[Michelle Martin]

Of Congress be doing right now?

[David Frum]

If I had one wish, I would have a joint House and Senate resolution saying that any presidential order to attack the territory of a NATO ally is by that fact an illegal order. And obedience to it is an act of obeying an illegal order. Treaties of the United States are the law of the land according to the Constitution. A treaty has every bit as much law as any statute of Congress. And if a president orders a general officer to attack a NATO ally without first canceling the NATO treaty, that's an illegal order. I'd like to see Congress pass that. I'd like to see Congress pass a resolution recognizing the winner, Edmondo Gonzalez, the winner of the 2024 election, the person recognized by the United States and almost all of America's allies and most countries in Latin America as the rightful President of Venezuela. I'd like them to put some muscle behind that, that you don't want to send troops to Venezuela. But the goal should be bring Edmondo Gonzalez to lawful power and in a negotiated way. So that would be the best outcome. But you need to know where you're going. And bringing the proper, legitimate president of Venezuela to power, that should be the American goal, not empowering the next dictator in line.

[Michelle Martin]

Why do you think it is that this administration is so reluctant to acknowledge this election? I mean, which, as you pointed out, most governments around the world have done?

[David Frum]

Well, there may be a lot of petty reasons, but I think there's one big one, which is if you took this idea seriously, you'd be signing up for a big challenge. Venezuela was a very successful country from the 1950s to 1990s. It fell into disrepair under Chavez and into chaos under Maduro. So bringing Venezuela back to what it used to be, using its oil resources for the benefit of the Venezuelan people, that's a big project. It also means that you'd have to stop the quarter of the country that has been driven into exile. Eight million people, by the way, the largest group of them in Colombia, but many in the United States. You have to stop seeing them as invaders and threats and criminals who should be sent to torture prisons. And the act of repatriation is not one that involves a way stop at a torture prison, but involves some way to say, how do we take all the capital and the know how that has left Venezuela and encourage it to repatriate, at least in part, and to reconstruct the country? This would be a big project. And one more thing. One of the reasons they were reluctant to do it is if you want to do the project at reasonable cost to the American people, then you need partners. So, you know, this is not going to be in America. We're going to work with Mexico and Colombia and Brazil and that we're going to do. I mean, this. I think when I think about how this military intervention went, how differently would it have gone if the President had delivered his message not flanked by his own administration, but flanked by other presidents from Latin America, backed by a resolution of Congress? I think we don't. I mean, that wouldn't happen from this precedent, but I think a lot of people think, yeah, that, yeah, ending a dictatorship in Venezuela that is rejected by his own people in a democratic vote, but where it's a big reconstruction project. We need partners, we need friends, and we need permission from Congress.

[Michelle Martin]

Before we let you go, I want to loop back to where we started our conversation, and here's where I'm asking you to speculate. Do you have a theory about why this happened? As you pointed out, the administration has given multiple reasons, some of which are contradictory.

[David Frum]

I have a guess it's not really a theory. I think the United States has suffered this terrible flow of drug deaths from opioids, not from the drugs that come from Venezuela, which are mostly cocaine. The Trump administration, many of the people there, feel those deaths very intensely, as they should, and want to do something about it, but they want to do something that blames foreigners, that says the reason Americans are dying is not because of things that are wrong in American life. It's not that we need some change in the way we do things here. It's someone else is doing this to us. The urge to blame others. Now, their first attention was to Mexico, which is where actually most of the fentanyl flows from. And before, in the year 23 and 24, there are a lot of talk from people would become important in the Trump administration about actually using military action inside Mexico. And I wrote about this for the Atlantic. Once in power, it became clear this Mexico war scheme was not very feasible. And anyway, the Mexicans went very far to cooperate with the United States and with the Trump administration. But that urge to do something violent, to stop drugs that are blamed on others, not to look inward, but to look outward for a villain, I think that impulse shifted from Mexico to attach itself to Venezuela. And the irony, of course, is that there genuinely is a big drug flow problem via Mexico. There isn't such a big drug flow problem through Venezuela, but it was a place where those feelings could go. And instead of looking inward and saying, why is it that so many Americans are harming themselves in this way and so many more than were harming themselves just 15 years ago? Why? What changes need to be made here so that Americans are less inclined to take drugs. They're met with better care when they get it. Anti overdose remedies are more easily and freely available. All of that requires thinking and planning and not just anger and violence.

[Michelle Martin]

David Frum, thank you for talking with us.

[David Frum]

Thank you. Bye bye.

[Christiana Amanpour]

A really great and important conversation there. And finally, while Greenland's future does remain uncertain, at least we know the northern lights will never be seized or sold. A small camera over an airport in western Greenland captured the early morning sky lit up by these extraordinary green lights. The natural phenomenon occurs when the earth's magnetosphere is disturbed. And truth be told, there is a lot disturbing Greenlanders right now. And these moments of light are priceless. Coming up on tomorrow's show, two sets of celebrated collaborators whose relationships couldn't be more different I sat down with the acclaimed actor Ethan Hawke to discuss Blue Moon, his latest project with longtime director and creative partner Richard Linklater. The film follows the breakdown of a 25 year Broadway partnership between lyricist Lorenz Hart and composer Richard Rogers. Here's what Hawke told me about how he sustains a much healthier dynamic with Linklater after all these years.

[David Frum]

Rogers and Hart had a 25 year collaboration and so do Linklater and I. And what is it that makes artistic intimacy? I mean, it's a very close. When you create together, when your names are associated with each other, when you're pouring pieces of yourself into your art, mixing them with the other person.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

It'S.

[David Frum]

A powerful connection and I think we wanted to make a film about that. The obvious answer about how we keep working together is we stay out of rehab, you know, or meaning in a lot of ways, the greatest demons in our life and the destruction of our relationships is usually self sabotage.

[Christiana Amanpour]

My full interview with Ethan Hawke airs tomorrow. That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website, website and all over social media. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.