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- [00:00]
Christiane Amanpour
The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now get up to 45% off with minimum purchase plus get a free professional measure@blinds.com rules and restrictions apply. Hello everyone and welcome to amanpur. Here's what's coming up.
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Bob Davis
We're doing well in Venezuela, right? It's working good.
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Christiane Amanpour
Four months after the United States snatched Maduro from the Venezuelan presidency, does the country have a democratic future? I ask exiled opposition leader and Nobel laureate Maria Corinna Machado.
- [00:59]
Maria Corina Machado
Then we've not done well on the propaganda war.
- [01:02]
Christiane Amanpour
As Israel's standing with Americans continues to plummet, I speak to genocide scholar Omer Bartov about his new book, what Went Wrong and why he believes the nation is facing a moral and political reckoning.
- [01:16]
Bob Davis
Also ahead, unemployment shot up, people were laid off constantly, how the flood of
- [01:22]
Christiane Amanpour
Chinese imports reshaped America and what it reveals about the future of global trade. Veteran journalist Bob Davis joins Hari Srinivasan ahead of Trump's high stakes summit in Beijing. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christian Amanpour. In London, a leader deposed, a newly pliant regime and enriched uranium safely removed from the actual country. What sounds like President Trump's ideal end game for Iran is in fact already unfolding in Venezuela. Four months after the US Invaded Caracas and captured the the leader Nicolas Maduro. Major oil companies are working to ink production deals as the White House pushes to unlock Venezuela's vast energy reserves. The United States Department of Energy has announced that in fact enriched uranium was removed from the country and flown to South Carolina, another sign of the close ties being forged between Washington and the interim president, Daniel Darcy Rodriguez. But as Trump revels in this new partnership, what has become of the promise of democracy and democratic elections? It's a question on the mind of millions of Venezuelans, including our first guest tonight. That is Maria Corinna Machado, the opposition leader in exile after a risky departure to accept her Nobel Peace Prize late last year, which she promptly then gave to President Trump. But Maduro's top lieutenant, Delsey Rodriguez, is in charge now. So where does that leave the country's most vocal democracy campaigner? Well, she joined Me from Washington, Maria Corinna Machado. Welcome back to our program.
- [03:35]
Maria Corina Machado
Thank you very much. Christiane.
- [03:38]
Christiane Amanpour
I want to ask you about your plans. I know you're on a book circuit now. You've just come out with your new book, Freedom Manifesto, and we're going to talk about that. You're doing a book, but in March, March 1, you said you were going back very shortly to Venezuela. Now that was some 10 weeks ago. You're not back. Do you plan to go back?
- [04:00]
Maria Corina Machado
Yes, I do. Christiane, When I came out, when I escaped my country in December to go to Oslo, the first thing I said is I am planning to go back as soon as possible. I have a few objectives to accomplish. I've been working very hard on, on those to reach out to people, to align all, you know, vectors for a democratic transition in Venezuela to show the huge potential that a free, democratic, prosperous Venezuela has not only for people but for the whole hemisphere and also to reach out to thousands of Venezuelans in a huge diaspora. So I've been doing that and I plan to go soon back.
- [04:45]
Christiane Amanpour
So you say soon. Can I pin you down? Is it a week, two weeks? I'm asking you because there's reporting that President Trump suggested when you met him that you don't go back yet. I don't know whether it's concerns about your safety, whether it's concerns about the current, you know, way that Venezuela is being run alongside the United States with Delsey Rodriguez, the former vice president in charge. Do you know, can you tell me why he suggested that you shouldn't go back?
- [05:12]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, actually, what I've spoken in detail about this my return is with the secretary of State. And the reasons that we have discussed are precisely security and not only mine. I'm talking about thousands and thousands of political leaders, social leaders that have been forced to flee and that also want to go back to accompany, you know, this will of our people, of the nation that has, you know, proven our democratic vocation and are decided to move ahead into transition so that to democracy so that we can bring our children back home, which is, you know, the long, the desired, you know, desperate intention all mothers have in our country.
- [06:03]
Christiane Amanpour
Look, the president appears to have his own version of how Venezuela should be run. He believes it's going very well with, with his chosen hand picked person cooperating, Delsey Rodriguez, he's just lifted sanctions from her. He says we did Venezuela incredibly well. He praises Delsey Rodriguez. We have a great situation going over there with the wonderful President Delsey and she's doing a great job and they're all doing a good job. That's President Trump. As you know, Maduro's regime is pretty much largely intact. Do you consider this situation a good job? Do you consider it permanent or interim? But do you consider it necessary for the moment, as Trump apparently does and Rubio?
- [06:50]
Maria Corina Machado
I believe there have been very important steps taken, Cristiane. First of all, it's starting to dismantle a repressive regime that has committed crimes against humanity. There were over 1,000 political prisoners on January 1. Today, more than 600 of them have been. There are many that are still in prison and other crimes that are being still committed. Just this week we found out that Victor Hugo Quero, whose mother has been looking desperately for him because he was abducted on January 1, 2025, I mean, 16 months ago. We just found out this week after she went from jail to jail, hospital from hospital. And it was denied that he was there, that he, the regime accepted, confessed that he had been killed. Dead. He had been dead since July 2025, I mean, nine months ago. And imagine this, the cynicism of this regime that denied the amnesty under the so called amnesty law of Del. C. Rodriguez, knowing that he was already dead. I mean, this is the kinds of things that are happening right now in Venezuela. This on the human rights side, on the social side. Yes, people are starting to speak out. First it was in churches, then in universities. Finally, we're seeing tens and hundreds of people going out all around the country speaking out and denouncing the horrible economic situation that Venezuela is living right now. I mean, 86% of our population lives in poverty. Our children go to school only twice a week. A teacher earns, earns $1 a day. I mean, this is horrific from an economic perspective, social situation, and these tensions are growing. So there's hope that this process will move along. And we trust what we've heard from the US Government that this is a three stage plan. And the third part of it is an electoral process with free and fair elections so that we can have a democratic transition to democracy.
- [09:10]
Christiane Amanpour
Do you accept what Marco Rubio said in terms of a deadline for these democratic elections? He basically said, according to the New York Times, that he wants to see a democratically elected president of Venezuela before Trump leaves office in 2029. So we're talking three years at least from now. Is that the timing that you would agree to?
- [09:35]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, actually, that's not the timing that I've been discussing with Secretary Rubio or other officials in the United States. Actually, what they have said is that these three phases are not sequential, but that they can overlap. That the first phase of civilization was already completed and that actions on the third area, which is the democratization and reinstitutionalization of Venezuela, are already taking place. And at the end, Christiane, it is very important to understand, you know, the characteristics, the condition of a Venezuelan society. Look, we are a united, cohesive society, I would say like no other in this hemisphere. We do not have religious, racial, regional, social or political fractures. 90% of our people say we want to have free and fair elections. We want to have dignity. We want to have freedom, justice, because we want our families reuniting in Venezuela. Remember, a third of Venezuelan population, roughly 9 million, have been forced to flee. They want to go back, we want to re encounter, but only if the criminal regime that once forced them out is dismantled. And we have the certainty that we can leave with justice, freedom and opportunities. Which is, by the way, what the big investors also look for. They want rule of law. Venezuela is currently in the last place globally by the World justice project, which ranks 143 countries globally. Venezuela is in the 143rd place right now. So to have long lasting and huge investments to take advantage of Venezuelan huge potential in oil, gas, energy, infrastructure, minerals, rare earth and so on, you have to have rule of laws and a regulatory framework that is predictable and sustainable. And that can only happen after we have free and fair elections.
- [11:56]
Christiane Amanpour
So I need to press you on this. Then is 2029 too late? Do you want. When do you want to see elections? And secondly, you talked about all of this can only happen when the criminally responsible Maduro regime is gone. Do you include Delsey Rodriguez in that description or do you accept her as a transitional figure?
- [12:19]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, regarding to your last question, we have offered privately and publicly our willingness to have a negotiated transition in which incentives and guarantees are given to those that facilitate this process. The wide majority of the Venezuelans that have been involved with the regime, they did it for fear. And we have opened our arms and given them the security that they will be part of this recovery of Venezuela. This is not revenge. We will not do to them what they did to us. We will guarantee they will have safeguards and rights respected. But you have to understand that when 90% of a people is determined to be free, a nation that has a single purpose, that is organized, that has such a democratic culture and history as Venezuela has, we will never give up, we will never surrender. Venezuela will be free.
- [13:22]
Christiane Amanpour
I understand that, but you're not answering my question about Delsey Rodriguez. I understand everything you're saying about amnesty and all the rest of it. Is she, according to you, the acceptable transitional figure?
- [13:36]
Maria Corina Machado
She will have incentives and I think it's her, you know, her last opportunity to have the possibility to be recognized as a figure that helped a peaceful and order transition to democracy to Venezuela. An opportunity as the armed forces that I have to Insist More than 80% of their members also want a transition to democracy soon. And regarding the timing, Venezuelan people want elections as soon as possible. From a technical perspective, it requires between seven and nine months. Once you take the political decision to move forward, naming a new electoral council, that's a step that should be taken as soon as possible.
- [14:21]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, so I'm hearing from you that the benchmark of 2029 is too long. So the next question then is, are you? I know that you and your party, your party won the last elections according to all independent analysis, according to your own election workers, according to all the figures that were broadcast, the Maduro regime stole that election. Remember, Delsey Rodriguez was the vice president at that time. Are you claiming position as leading opposition figure? Or is there Leopoldo Lopez? Is there Enrique Martez, who, by the way, was Trump's guest at the State of the Union. Are you also competing for the mantle of opposition leader?
- [15:06]
Maria Corina Machado
Look, the Venezuelan opposition is today more united than ever. And it is because this transcends political parties. This has turned into a social movement. I won the primaries with 92% of the votes. Maduro was afraid to run against me and ban me. And even so, we won the election with almost 70% of the votes and we proved it. And I want to insist on this issue that you just highlighted because perhaps other democratic movements would have stick to that result and say that it had to be enforced in a show of trust in our people and our willingness to help the US Government plan to move forward, we have accepted to relitimize that will of the people and participate in new elections in which I believe anybodyanybody who wants to be a candidate should run and have the people decide. That's what our constitution says. That's what our people deserve. That's what we have gained with 27 long years of suffering. But that has brought our country closer together. And that's why I insist this movement is unstoppable. Venezuela will be free.
- [16:25]
Christiane Amanpour
And finally, tell me about the Freedom Manifesto, the title of your book. If you can give me in a couple of bullet points your main manifesto promise.
- [16:36]
Maria Corina Machado
Well, thank you for this. This is an extraordinary testament of voices of mothers, sons. Bro. Couples that have been separated, that have been humiliated, but that have risen with dignity, with courage, with resilience. This is the voices of millions of Venezuelans that want to show the world that you can confront a cruel tyranny, but at the same time, from within the nation, you can have the force of the people and the extraordinary things that that can accomplish. They told us it was important, possible to move ahead to bring a country back together to defeat Maduro and now to move ahead into the transition we have made possible what they say it's impossible. And once again, the Venezuelan people will do it. That's the spirit. And the protagonist of this story are the Venezuelan people. That's what the Freedom Manifesto shows the world.
- [17:37]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay. And let me ask you a cheeky question then. Was it worth giving your Nobel Prize medal to President Trump?
- [17:45]
Maria Corina Machado
The answer is yes, because I know that Venezuela will be free and because President Trump is the only head of state that has risked the lives of some of his citizens for the freedom and democracy in my country.
- [18:00]
Christiane Amanpour
Maria Corinna Machado, thank you so much for joining us.
- [18:04]
Maria Corina Machado
Thank you, Christiane. My pleasure.
- [18:09]
Christiane Amanpour
And just like that, shortly after our interview, after extolling the virtues of President Trump and freedom and democracy, a post by Fox News, John Roberts claims that President Trump is, quote, seriously considering a move to make Venezuela the 51st state of the United States of America. Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break. Now, since the start of their joint war against Iran, American support for Israel has fallen. 60% of Americans now hold a negative view of Israel. For Israelis, growing concern that one of their key strategic assets, American support, is dwindling away. And with an election looming, pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has blamed social media for the shift in public opinion. Take a listen.
- [19:14]
Maria Corina Machado
In war, armies sometimes miss and civilians die.
- [19:21]
Omer Bartov
And these are mistakes. These are not deliberate things that happen. Israel is besieged on the media front,
- [19:27]
Maria Corina Machado
on the propaganda front, and we've not done well on the propaganda war.
- [19:36]
Christiane Amanpour
But is it really just a messaging problem? In his new book, what Went Wrong? Omer Bartov traces Israel's present crisis back to the tensions and decisions rooted in its founding. He was born on a kibbutz in Israel, and he was raised in a Zionist household and served for years in the idf. He's now one of the leading scholars of Holocaust and genocide studies. And he caused controversy when he declared Israel is in fact committing genocide in Gaza. He joins me now from Massachusetts. Professor Ome Bartov, welcome back to our program.
- [20:15]
Omer Bartov
Thanks very much for having me. Cristiana, nice to be again with you.
- [20:20]
Christiane Amanpour
Yes. And we are continuing a very poignant and important conversation. We've spoken several times over this very, very difficult question. So let me first ask you about the title of your book, Israel what Went Wrong. I mean, it's a pretty provocative title.
- [20:38]
Omer Bartov
Yes. And people have responded in various ways to it. Some people say nothing went wrong. Some people say it was always wrong or that I am wrong. But what I'm trying to trace in the book is really the question of how did Zionism, which was a movement that began in the late 19th century, intended to liberate, emancipate Jews who were living in East Central Europe, who were being persecuted, subjected to more and more violence, and to create something a better living environment for Jews, how that movement was transformed into a state ideology that increasingly supported militarism, expansionism, became increasingly racist, and since October 2023, has also supported genocide. That's the sort of tragic transformation that my book tries to trace.
- [21:46]
Christiane Amanpour
You say you sum up as whether it has moved from that progressive society based on justice to a state ideology of ethno nationalism. Now, look, I want to bring up the genocide issue because and then we'll go back to your book and on the transformation of Zionism, because this caused a lot of controversy. We spoke to you because you are a leading genocide and Holocaust studies professor and you're at Brown University. So at first, back In November of 2023, shortly after October 7th, you wrote for the New York Times saying and warning that while genocide is not taking place in Gaza, things will get worse. Here is what you told me then.
- [22:30]
Omer Bartov
I'm not convinced that right now there is intentional killing of civilians, but there is totally disproportionate killing of civilians, disproportionate in relationship to the military goals declared by Israel itself. So in that sense, I think we are close, but we're not there yet.
- [22:58]
Christiane Amanpour
And Professor Bartow, you followed up with a second op ed saying that we are in fact there yet. And I talked to you about that. Here's what you said in your second go round on this issue.
- [23:12]
Omer Bartov
There is no real resistance anymore. And the question is then, what is this war about? What is it trying to accomplish? And on the ground, what you're seeing is it's actually a war of annihilation of the entire Gaza Strip.
- [23:33]
Christiane Amanpour
So you've seen, you know, that so many people have come to that perspective, even many very distinguished Israelis. What were you who were you trying to address there? Who were you trying to. To talk to with those statements?
- [23:53]
Omer Bartov
So, yeah, let me say that I retrace these debates also in the book, and I try to explain how I change my position over time. When I published that op ed in the New York times in early November 2023, I was hoping that someone in the Biden administration at the time would listen, because as I wrote there, they were both clear signs that there had been war crimes and crimes against humanity. About 10,000 civilians had been killed already then in the first four weeks of the campaign in Gaza. I was hoping that the Biden administration would listen, because we all knew at the time that if the US Decided to tell Netanyahu, you have two weeks to wrap this up, and if you don't, then you'll be on your own, meaning we won't supply you either with military hardware or with diplomatic support, then Israel would have stopped, as it did eventually when Trump told it to stop, but the administration didn't listen. We could have been at a point where we would have said, yes, there were war crimes, there was immense violence, it almost became genocide, but it didn't. And because the administration did not put its foot down and allowed Israel to continue, by the spring of 2024, it became clear that the statements that had been made by Israeli politicians and generals right after October 7, which had a genocidal content, were not only made at the heat of the moment, but were actually part of what we saw later on was a pattern of operations by the IDF in Gaza intended to ethnically cleanse the entire Strip. Because that failed, because the Palestinians had no place to run to. The Egyptian border was closed, and obviously Israel's borders were closed. That attempted ethnic cleansing, which failed, turned into a genocidal operation. This was what I was trying to warn about. I wrote about it then in the summer of 2024 and repeated that in July of 2015.
- [26:22]
Christiane Amanpour
Instead, the Biden administration sanctioned the ICC for attempting to hold both Israeli officials and Hamas officials accountable for what had happened on October 7 and on the ensuing war on Gaza. So the Biden administration sanctioned them. Now you hear Prime Minister Netanyahu, who's never been held accountable, unlike many, many other Israeli prime ministers, after all the wars that have been fought, they've all had to answer to a review. He's now telling American television that actually, at least in the clip, in the clip that we just played, that actually, you know, we just have a propaganda problem, that we're victims, you know, of this lack of support. Now or this dropping support in the United States for Israel. What do you make of Netanyahu's justification for what's happening in the country of your greatest support?
- [27:20]
Omer Bartov
Well, what is extraordinary is first of all that Netanyahu, who was the head of government at the, during the fiasco of October 7th, we know now that the government and the military had all the information about an attack that was going to come from Hamas and he did nothing about it, that he will be able to complete his term of four years as Prime Minister, never even thinking of resigning in shame. He's trying now and he's speaking only to the American media. He hardly ever speaks in Hebrew to the Israeli media. He's trying now to fool people again into saying, well, some mistakes are made. You know, in war things happen. Whereas in fact we know that there was a concerted plan about which he spoke on various occasions, to empty the Gaza Strip of its population. We know that Netanyahu said, for instance, and that was about a year ago, he said they cannot go back to their homes, they meaning the Palestinians in Gaza, because Israel destroyed their homes. And our only problem is to find countries that will take them in. Of course that problem has not been resolved. No one will take them in. And therefore they're living in horrifying conditions now in less than half of the territory of what had been one of the most congested places in the world before October 7, 2023. So yes, he's lying, but he has been doing that as part of his career.
- [29:00]
Christiane Amanpour
And of course we can't go in and actually fact check and tell the truth because the Israeli government refuses to allow any independent journalists still into Gaza even after a so called ceasefire. But let me ask you about your experience, because as I said, you were born to Zionists family, you believed in this. You've told us your reasons for thinking that it's moved away from the initial promise. But you were Also in the IDF, you served in Gaza in the 1970s and you write even then it was a bad place. 350,000 people, hopeless and sad. Well today there are just over 2 million people. More than hopeless and sad, not just because of the Israeli occupation, but also because of the horrendous leadership of Hamas that has led them down this road to total perdition. What was it like for you as a young soldier? And did you have any idea of what was going to come?
- [29:59]
Omer Bartov
Look, I was very young at the time. I think I was 19 or 20. I served for about a year around Gaza. My battalion command was in Gaza I was serving northern Sinai, so I was there a lot. I served as an occupation soldier, as I write in the book, in Al Arish. And I did have that very difficult feeling of being an occupation soldier, not knowing why I was there and feeling the gazes of the population on me through shuttered windows. But did I know? Did I entirely understand? No, of course I was too young and I'd been very well socialized into Israeli society. I will say that even before I went to the military, so as a 17 year old, we used to demonstrate against the occupation. The occupation then was very young, right? This was in 1970, 71. The occupation began in 1967. And we carried posters saying occupation corrupts. And we picked up that slogan someplace. And we had no idea how long that occupation would last and how deeply it would corrupt Israeli society. So much of what you see today, the indifference of the Israeli population, the vast majority, I'm not talking only about the far right or the supporters of the government, but many supporters of the opposition are indifferent to what happened to Palestinians in Gaza. This mix of indifference and denial is a consequence of decades of occupation which led to dehumanization of Palestinians and in turn led to dehumanization of Israelis vis a vis Palestinians. Thinking of them, as the Minister of Defense at the time, Yoav Gallant, said immediately after October 7, they are human animals and we will treat them as such. That is a sense that was shared by large parts of the Israeli population and remains so to this day as a result of this decades long, increasingly oppressive and brutal occupation.
- [32:15]
Christiane Amanpour
You know, you were talking about the book and talking about, you know, what the vast majority of Israelis think. As you've just laid out, your book has not been sold in Israel, nor translated into Hebrew. And there's such a huge, colossal intellectual, spiritual, religious, political war between Israelis and the diaspora on these various issues. I've heard, you know, families who can't talk to each other anymore, who believe. Half believe one thing, half believe the other thing. You must have understood that you were going against your own tribe, that you would probably face a huge amount of blowback and pushback. You're not even published in the, you know, in the homeland of your birth.
- [33:06]
Omer Bartov
Yes. I mean, I don't like to think of myself as a member of a tribe, but yes, of course I knew.
- [33:13]
Christiane Amanpour
You know what I mean though, right? It's a political term of art.
- [33:16]
Omer Bartov
Yes, I do, I know, but I just have always resisted it for most of my life and I won't change now. But I am an Israeli. I feel strongly about that country. I care about it. I still think I have very good friends there, although after the past two years, maybe I have somewhat fewer friends and I care about its future. I did want the book to come out in Hebrew. I have written to many publishers in Israel, including very left wing publishers, and none of them has either dared or wanted to publish the book. But there was an interview with me that was published in Haaretz a few days ago, first in English and then 10 days later or so, also in Hebrew. And many people were appalled by what I said, because I said that I thought that Zionism had become a state ideology that must be discarded, that must be done away with, that has become racist, Jewish supremacist, violent, and now genocidal. And the state has to remake itself and has to find a way of being a different state, a state for all its citizens, and a state that will know how to share the space that it controls between Jews and Palestinians. But not everyone was against that. There have been people who think like me, and I wish that more people spoke out not in order simply to condemn, because condemning is easy, but to try to trace the roots of how we got there and to try to understand through that. As a historian, that's what I do to see where we went wrong and how things can be fixed.
- [35:07]
Christiane Amanpour
Okay, let me just ask you a final question. We're running out of time. Do you think one of the things as you write, where did it go wrong? Was the. They never ever talked about the Holocaust and the Nakba. It was never intertwined in terms of the origin stories of both peoples. Do you think if that had been more told, it might have made a difference or not?
- [35:33]
Omer Bartov
Yes, I mean, a major point, the crucial Moment is of 1948. 1948 is the year in which the state was established. 1948 is the year in which the vast majority of population of the Palestinians were kicked out the Nakba. 1948 is also the year in which the Genocide Convention was endorsed with strong support from Israel at the time. So facing up to the past, facing up to the wrongs of the past is crucial in order to move forward. I agree with. But the Holocaust became, in Israel also something very different from simply a moment in history that one has to commemorate and research, which I have done for most of my career. It has become a political tool from the 1980s on, which has given license to Israelis to say that any resistance to them and resistance comes from those that you occupy and oppress, brings with it the danger of another extinction of another holocaust, and therefore, those resisters have to be wiped out with any kind of violence, regardless of any international law or agreement.
- [36:54]
Christiane Amanpour
It really is fascinating. It's one of the most important stories in the world. Professor Omer Bartoff, thank you so much indeed for joining us. Israel what went wrong? We'll be right back after this short break. President Trump is due to meet China's Xi Jinping in Beijing this week. It's the first visit by a US President in nearly a decade. For the world's two largest economies and militaries, trade will likely be high on the agenda after their intense tariff war last year, which ended in a truce. Journalist Bob Davis has been keeping a close eye, and he joins Hari Srinivasan to discuss what a small town's recovery from the impacts of Chinese imports reveals about the United States economy.
- [37:52]
Hari Srinivasan
Christiane, thanks. Bob Davis, thanks so much for joining us. You have been covering US And China sort of economic relations and fallout from trade wars for a long time. Your recent piece took you back to Hickory, North Carolina, a town you followed over time. You've seen these different cycles at work. Tell us a little bit about Hickory. What drew you to it over the years?
- [38:15]
Bob Davis
Well, my first Visit was in 2016 when the Journal was trying to figure out and everybody else, you know, the Trump phenomenon. And part of it clearly was, you know, populist revolt or rebellion. And China played a big part of that. So we were looking for a place to set a story. And Hickory just wind up to be a perfect candidate, journalistically speaking. It was a small city, 30,000 people or so in the Southeast, which was where the impact of China was felt enormously. They tended to be small cities in the Southeast and the Midwest that had a single industry. And Hickory's industry was the furniture industry. It was at one time kind of the furniture capital of the U.S. yeah.
- [39:02]
Hari Srinivasan
So how is it different today?
- [39:05]
Bob Davis
Well, you know, back then we were looking, as I say, for the impact of China. What was truly interesting to me and these people had worked in the furniture factories for years and years, and many of them had come from different parts to the country to work in Hickory over what were called the hillbilly highways, you know, the main highways from Tennessee, West Virginia and so on, and look like, you know, really good jobs. And they were really good jobs In Hickory in 2000 or so, the median income was higher than the national average. The unemployment rate was lower than the national average. But after China joined the WTO in 2001, the impact was enormous and immediate. And unemployment shot Up. People were laid off constantly. Furniture factories were closing left and right. You know, and the interesting thing was I go and I talk to workers there and I'd say like, so what do you think happened? And if I asked them specifically a question about China, they would go off on China. But mainly what it was without asking, if I would just ask in an open ended way. The first thing they would say is they blame their bosses. They blame their bosses for selling out, selling out to the Chinese. They could understand why China was going to come in and sell, but it was their bosses that they blamed. And it was the kind of thing that Donald Trump and also Bernie Sanders picked up on.
- [40:34]
Hari Srinivasan
So really, that economic frustration translated into political identity.
- [40:38]
Bob Davis
Yes, definitely. Without a doubt.
- [40:40]
Hari Srinivasan
In your recent piece, you wrote, the town is making a comeback, the jobs are returning and incomes are rising. But the reasons have nothing to do with Mr. Trump and his signature policies. Explain.
- [40:53]
Bob Davis
Well, that's right. As I say, this was a single industry town, a furniture industry. The furniture industry figured out a way to survive with China, but at a much, much reduced level. I think the employment of furniture is. There is maybe a third of what it used to be, but again, it's still, it still exists. So the jobs aren't coming back in the furniture industry. What happened in general was that the people who worked in the furniture factories tended to stay. You know, they didn't have a lot of options elsewhere in the country and they have family connections there and all that. Essentially they got older. Some, a lot of them, a fair percentage of them went on disability because they did a lot of factory work. It might have wrenched their backs or whatever, but, you know, they went on Social Security, Medicare, Social Security, disability. Federal money comes into the town and that creates a demand for services for older people. So healthcare in particular, but other services as well. So the area is definitely staging a recovery, no doubt. You know, jobs that are increasing, unemployment rate is lower, but they aren't jobs in general. In manufacturing, there are jobs and services, and many of those jobs are filled by immigrants or the children of immigrants who lived in Hickory but were too young, you know, in the early 2000s to get a job.
- [42:16]
Hari Srinivasan
So if they're not the same type of jobs, are they paying the same? And if, I mean, is it physical labor? Is that why there are different sort of demographics that are signing up?
- [42:28]
Bob Davis
The service jobs in general tend to be, tend to pay less than the manufacturing jobs. I mean, some service jobs, of course, don't. If you're a nurse or a. I don't Know, a dental assistant, you make considerably more than most factory workers do. But, you know, a home health aide or something will, you know, are not highly paid jobs. And the people, again, who tend to gravitate to those jobs are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Now if you look at the factory jobs themselves even, they also rely much, much more on immigration. And back, gosh, in 1990 or so, there were hardly anybody who was foreign born in that part of the world. And now it used to be less than 1%. Now it's 10% of the, of the population is foreign born. That's much lower than the national average, but a substantial enormous increase from what it used to be. And the people who go into manufacturing now tend to be the same sort of people because again, if you grew up in Hickory and your father was laid off and your uncle was laid off and your mother was laid off, the last thing you want to do is to go into manufacturing. Some do, of course, but it tends to be people who don't have that kind of history.
- [43:47]
Hari Srinivasan
So currently the President talks a lot about how imposing tariffs on China, taking a harder line against China will bring back American manufacturing. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen has said that they're intended to revitalize the US industry and that factories are going to be breaking ground. Is that happening in hickory?
- [44:10]
Bob Davis
There's a 25% tariff on furniture from anywhere, anywhere outside the country. Right. So that's an incentive, certainly an incentive to move to the US and get under that tariff umbrella. But for the local surviving furniture companies, it hasn't really been a plus at all. I mean, what they will say to me is that first of all, their tariff bill has gone up enormously. These are very low margin kind of businesses. 5% before taxes is considered a good year. And then the way these furniture companies in general adjusted to China was to move into niche markets that the Chinese can't supply. So you know, an expensive piece, expensive piece of furniture with, with 100 different choices, you know, small production runs. So there's one particular company called century furniture make $7,000 sofas. They thought, you know, 25% tariffs not going to scare away their customers. But what happens is they sell through furniture retailers a lot, a lot of what they sell. And those retailers rely on sales of thousand dollar couches. And for people buying those kind of couches, 25% means a big deal. So they're worried that their customers are going to go out of business and that would hurt them much more than any benefit they might get from, you know, protection from the tariff, by the tariffs.
- [45:43]
Hari Srinivasan
And what about all the parts that go into the sofa? Some of those come from overseas in the first place, right?
- [45:47]
Bob Davis
Yeah, yeah. You can get a piece of furniture that's American made, but it's got metal parts and it's got a part from this country and that country. So it's also, you know, hundreds of hours trying to figure out, so how much do we owe? You know, and now there are refunds. They are, this particular company and others also are applying for refunds. But first of all, you don't know how much they're going to get. And then pretty, you can presume that retailers are going to ask for a refund also. And then the company says to me, well, you know, it's the customers that really should get the refunds and are the retailers and really call you up and say, you know, I owe you 50 bucks. I doubt it. So it becomes a complicated equation also,
- [46:30]
Hari Srinivasan
given the kind of different variables that you're saying are necessary for healthy transitions. Like let's say for example, a research infrastructure, a big university. Right now we've seen a lot of those universities suffer cutbacks in research funding from the federal government. You're talking about an immigrant labor pool and population. There's trepidation in certain communities about how ICE is going to come to their town or what they're going to do and how they're going to disrupt it. Employers, you're about talking, talking about that. So I wonder if there, you know, the policy prescriptions that we have right now that the administration is putting out will over time you're going to see these other kinds of effects on a place like Hickory or even a bigger place where there are these possibilities for sort of these green shoots. But some of these policies are kind of stopping that.
- [47:17]
Bob Davis
Well, I think the research question is the biggest self inflicted wound. I mean, it's frankly crazy. You know, I mean the United States is a leader in any number of technologies which can lead to new industries. And the idea of beating up on these universities because of issues about diversity and equity and so on, when clearly that's not the research part of those universities is just frankly crazy and will really hurt the United States if it continues. On the immigration question, it was interesting. I happened to be in Hickory, I don't know, a week or so after border patrol was there for one day, you know, they would stop, you know, at a Mexican restaurant or whatever and just that one day sent. You know, I'm, I'm hesitant to use the word terror, but that's kind of the way that people felt. They were really, really frightened. And, you know, people who are citizens started carrying passports. You know, people started carrying papers. The local Hispanic aid group, you know, started making deliveries because people were afraid to come to the food pantries. And that was for one day. One day. You know, and these factories do depend on supply of workers. And yes, I think it will. It will wind up hurting places of that sort of.
- [48:48]
Hari Srinivasan
You know, we're having this conversation on the eve of a meeting between President Trump and China's Xi Jinping. And, you know, what are the things that would help a place like Hickory? And are those things going to be on the agenda, so to speak? Is that where America is thinking?
- [49:07]
Bob Davis
The import impact from China has kind of washed over the United States. I mean, one of the things the United States trade representatives, Democrat or Republican, legitimately complain about is the Chinese model. It's an interesting model. It is, on the one hand, unbelievably competitive. Like in the EV area. Hundreds of companies competing, and they get really good at it. They're quite innovative. Their factories are very, very modern. But what keeps the system going are enormous subsidies. You know, in a capitalist system, a totally capitalist system, you know, you'd have, I don't know, you start with 50 companies, you'd wind up with three because they're making cars. And there what happens is companies stay in business all the time. So the result is they produce very good products, but at very, very cheap prices, at least at money losing prices. And those products that are unprofitable at home get exported overseas. And even if they may lose a little money overseas, it reduces, you know, the production cost per unit. And also they tend to do better, you know, even at prices that, that local competitors might complain about, it might be somewhat profitable for these companies. So it has long been a urging of the United States for China to shift its economic model so that it depends less on exports and more on filling demand for the 1.4 billion people who live there. So it hasn't helped so far. I mean, China has resisted all those complaints and feels that, yeah, you know, we're doing pretty well with the system we have. So that could be on the agenda. But I think the Trump team has largely given up on that, you know, and is looking for a way to instead come to some agreement that you'll only ship certain products at a certain volume and we'll ship certain products at a certain volume. Will that help, Pickery? I don't honestly know. I mean, maybe a little bit. But it also has all the downsides of protectionism, too, which the main one is you reduce competition and innovation. So I'm not sure that what will come out of this summit will have much effect on average Americans. I think it's much more on us to develop the programs and policies of our own that will help, you know, help the United States.
- [52:07]
Hari Srinivasan
Journalist and author Bob Davis, the book that he wrote about this was a superpower showdown. Thanks so much for your time.
- [52:14]
Bob Davis
Thank you.
- [52:18]
Christiane Amanpour
A hugely important relationship there. And finally, the BAFTA Television Awards took place here in London over the weekend. And one of the big winners was the harrowing documentary Gaza Do Doctors Under Attack. But the doc was grabbing headlines for other reasons on its rough road to the BAFTA podium, because Britain's biggest broadcaster, the BBC, had shelved it in this highly charged atmosphere since October 7th before it found a second chance at the country's Channel 4 station. In their acceptance speeches on the BBC, no less, journalist Ramita Navai and executive producer Ben Depair had this to say.
- [53:00]
Maria Corina Machado
These are the findings of our investigation that the BBC paid for but refused to show. But we refused to be silenced and censored.
- [53:11]
Christiane Amanpour
Just a question to the BBC, Given that you dropped our film, will you drop us from the BAFTA screening later tonight? Thank you.
- [53:17]
Bob Davis
Bye.
- [53:22]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, they clearly didn't drop them. And full disclosure, Ben De Per is my brother in law, the former head of Channel 4 News. That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
- [53:39]
Bob Davis
I'm Daniel Dae Kim. I'm going to South Korea to figure out how this small nation conquered the world with its culture.
- [53:45]
Omer Bartov
Join me and meet the artists and
- [53:47]
Bob Davis
creators behind the phenomenon K Everything now streaming on the CNN app. Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a hard look at the longevity industry. There's so much bad information that the
- [54:00]
Maria Corina Machado
really good information gets drowned.
- [54:02]
Bob Davis
The new CNN original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever now streaming on the CNN app.