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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [00:32]
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- [01:04]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello everyone and welcome to Amanpur. Here's what's coming up.
- [01:08]
Donald Trump
We're dealing with people that I think are very rational people and they were nice to deal with.
- [01:15]
Christiane Amanpour
Trump heaps praise on Iran's leaders, but where does that leave the Iranian people? I speak to the authors of Stolen Revolution about the long history of Iranians rising up for change only to see their hopes dashed. Then World cup fever writer and super fan Simon Cooper joins me on the magic and the madness of the biggest football show on earth.
- [01:41]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Plus, when China decides to turn off its exports, the entire world suffers.
- [01:49]
Christiane Amanpour
Stanford University's Elizabeth Economy speaks with Walter Isaacson about the global giant missing from this G7 Chinese President Xi Jinping. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Cristiana Manpur in London. Donald Trump's public position is that his agreement with Iran is great and better than our Obama's nuclear deal.
- [02:25]
Donald Trump
Here we are on Sunday, we reached an agreement with Iran that achieves everything we set out to accomplish, everything and much more. Ending the current conflict, reopening the Strait of Hormuz, and preventing Iran from ever obtaining a nuclear weapon. That's what it was all about.
- [02:46]
Christiane Amanpour
But nuclear talks have not even happened yet, and a leaked draft of the MOU raises some real questions about which side benefits the most and whether the United States is any better off than it was before the war. As it stands, the hostilities will end. The Strait of Hormuz, as you just heard, will open and Iran looks to get sanctions relief, some immediately through waivers on its oil exports. Tehran reiterates it will not produce a nuclear weapon, something it said before. While there are no details on how its tons of highly enriched uranium will be disposed of. The agreement is meant to be formally signed on Friday. But President Trump said the final language could change before then. And to further muddy the waters, he added this today, if they don't behave, I'll start bombing their heads again. Here with more detail is the New York Times David Sanger, who Trump called over the weekend after the agreement was made. David Sanger, welcome to the program. Trump. And you spoke, he called you and you made your report about it. Now he's spoken publicly, having briefed the allies. And you, I think you're there following them or you've been watching it anyway. And you just heard his press conference, no doubt. Just in a word, can you tell me what you think this means for the U.S.
- [04:08]
David Sanger
well, for the United States, it means a return to the status quo, right? The Strait of Hormuz was open, Christiane, prior to the war. It was closed as a result of the war. It wasn't one of the causes of the war. So the president is right when he says that we'll get oil flowing again, assuming that that's all carried through by the Iranians. I'm sure it will be because they want to be exporting again. But he's not correct when he says that they've achieved all of their nuclear objectives. The only one they've achieved so far is a declaration from the Iranians that they have no intention of building a nuclear weapon. They first made that statement in 1970 when they signed the nuclear or ratified the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. They said it again during the Obama era deal known as the jcpoa, the agreement to limit their nuclear program. It's on the first page of that agreement. So everything now hinges on what happens in negotiating the second, much more difficult agreement. And for that the president's given up some of his leverage because oil revenue will be flowing back into Iran as soon as those ships begin delivering.
- [05:28]
Christiane Amanpour
And David, you know, certain analysts, yourself included, but I'm just going to quote others right now and people who've been ambassadors for the United States in that region have basically said that it's a very one sided deal according to what we've seen and that in fact it could be an MOU of capitulation by the United States. These are strong words. Others are calling it a major strategic defeat for the United States because it gives at Least in the leaked document and the 14 points that we've been able to see a lot of upfront weight to Iran's demands, including respecting their sovereignty. They said they want a guarantee of no more war against them by the US or in fact, Israel, including this issue that we've just been talking about about sanctions and oil and the like and respecting each other's territorial integrity. How does, how do you read all that?
- [06:23]
David Sanger
Well, the respecting the territorial integrity and so forth doesn't cost either side very much to say that. Whether they'll execute it on is another thing. When the President called on Sunday and I was in London at that moment, I had not expected the call. He made the argument that the Iranians only get benefits, including the unfreezing of funds and, and the lifting of sanctions as they perform on the deal. But we haven't seen yet what those benchmarks are set to be. And it seems likely that they will begin to benefit, as I mentioned before, in the biggest way, which is to say resumed access to the oil markets almost right away before they have done that 60 day negotiation. And that leaves the President in a very risky spot because it's, it's very possible, it's probable that the Iranians will drag out this negotiation. It's an extraordinarily complex one. We learned that when we covered the Obama era negotiation that took, you'll remember, a year and a half. We spent a lot of time together during that time, waiting in hotel room lobbies, you know, for people to come out from the negotiations. And it took a year and a half because of the complexity of dealing with inspection, whether you close all the nuclear facilities, whether Iran can be allowed to continue to enrich even at low levels, whether or not the stockpile gets shipped out of the country, which the president didn't sound very urgent about yesterday. And that's all the hard stuff that will determine whether this is in fact better or worse than what Obama negotiated.
- [08:10]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, I mean, I wonder what your gut instinct is on that, because President Trump is making all sorts of claims that it is much better and much bigger and all the rest of it. We know that it was Prime Minister Netanyahu who tried to persuade him or did persuade him to pull out of the JCPOA and who's now been left out of this final negotiating process and is not happy about it. And President Trump is even using someI mean, I haven't really heard him say this kind of thing against an Israeli prime minister. I haven't heard other US Presidents say it either. But not very complimentary to what is their specialist relationship either, their most special relationship that with Israel. So where do you think that part of it is going to stand?
- [08:55]
David Sanger
Well, Christian, when the history of this whole past four months is written, I think one of the most fascinating parts will be how tied together Netanyahu and Trump were at the beginning of this process. It was Netanyahu and the head of the Mossad, David Barnea, who convinced the president to come in and join the attacks, lead the attacks. They briefed in the Situation Room, the Israelis did, that the Iranian government would collapse in a few days. There was a whole plan about how the Kurds would come in and begin to attack the government, how they might replace the current government with a previous Iranian hardline president, but one they thought that they could control, President Ahmadinejad. None of that came to pass. And so you have to wonder if at this point the president's view is that Netanyahu led him down the wrong path.
- [10:03]
Christiane Amanpour
And we will wait to see. Right now it is being described exactly as that of a strategic defeat for Israel or, or for Netanyahu and one for President Trump as well. But as you say, let's wait and see where the negotiations go. David Sanger, thank you so much. Now, despite encouraging the Iranian people right from the get go to rise up at the start of the year, President Trump has lost interest apparently in toppling the Iranian regime. Listen to what he told reporters yesterday about the Iranian negotiators.
- [10:35]
Donald Trump
I think they're smarter. I think they're very smart. I think they're far less radicalized and I think they're, I think they're really good. They love their country. You know, you talk about regime change, nobody will say that, but I guess that's, look, their one set of leaders is all gone. Their second set of leaders is all gone. Their third set of leaders, a little bit gone, but for the most part, and frankly, I think that's regime change. I think they're going to behave much differently. I think they see a different way of life
- [11:12]
Christiane Amanpour
now. This is in stark contrast to many analysts assessments that the Iranian regime left in place is more hardline and more militarized than before. For those hoping to see a more democratic and free Iran, it's a grim yet familiar cycle as those hopes are crushed once again. In their new book, Stolen Revolution, journalists Yegan Torbaty and Bozormer Sharifiddine trace the arc of history since 1979, following the stories of six Iranians who've seen hopes raised and dashed in that time. And they're both joining me now. Welcome to the program.
- [11:49]
Bozormer Sharifiddine
Hi. Thanks for having me.
- [11:50]
Yeganeh Torbaty
Thank you so much. Christian.
- [11:52]
Christiane Amanpour
Can I just ask both of you to start out? Let me ask you first, Yeganeh, how you react to what Trump just said about those still in power in Iran?
- [12:05]
Yeganeh Torbaty
I think President Trump seems to sort of be painting a different picture than what we see in reality on the ground in Iran. You know, we still are waiting to kind of see how these changes in Iran's leadership play out. As you know, Christiane, Iran's history can take lots of unexpected twists and turns, but certainly we can't say that there is regime change in Iran. What we can say is that as you, as you mentioned, the people who are in charge now, I mean, we've seen a long sort of decades long trend towards the military gaining more and more power inside the country and that has been accelerated over the last few months. And certainly, you know, we'll kind of see how these negotiations go. But I expect that it will be quite difficult for the group of people who are in power now to kind of make some of some of the most serious compromises on the nuclear program or on other issues.
- [13:02]
Christiane Amanpour
And Bozoumir, what is your view on this? Because you know, we said the Iranian people were encouraged to rise up, take over, as Trump said, after the war. And yes, perhaps Trump is dealing with people like Arakchi, who's the foreign minister and Ghaliba who's the speaker of the parliament, but also tasked with essentially running this part. But there's also the IRGC who have made their voice very, very clear and made their views very and frankly, there have been organized protests inside Iran against this deal with the United States by the hardliners. So what do you think given the title of your book is Stolen Revolution and we'll get more into that, what do you think immediately will be the political manifestation of a post war Iran vis a vis the people of Iran?
- [13:53]
Bozormer Sharifiddine
So I think for the Islamic Republic it's going to be a difficult task to sell this deal internally because it's for the hardliners. We see that they are very critical of the deal. And for them it doesn't make sense for the Islamic Republic to make a deal with the US Only a few months after they killed their leader, the supreme leader. I see that the way they are trying to sell the deal is that this is going to give the Islamic Republic a breathing space to rebuild its offensive and defensive capabilities to get ready for a full on confrontation in the future. So that's the from the Islamic Republic perspective, it seems that they think that this is a good deal because they can regroup and rethink their strategies and plan ahead for future. But I think for the Iranian people, the outcome is quite disappointing because in the eyes of many Iranians, the war didn't start on February 28th. It started from January, when thousands, maybe millions of Iranians came to the streets and President Trump told them to remain on the streets because the help was on its way. So in the eyes of many Iranians, they were expecting this military campaign to be a way that they will overthrow the Islamic Republic with the help of Americans. So on the question of the regime change, in the eyes of many Iranians, the regime hasn't changed, only it has changed to a worse version of itself.
- [15:38]
Christiane Amanpour
And just to quote, according to human rights organizations, Iran has executed political prisoners at a rate of one roughly every other day since March 18th. Now, Yeganeh, I want to get to you and Bozomi on your book, which is a fascinating take because you take a number of people to illustrate what you call stolen revolution as the title and how through decades, and it's not just this regime, but for many, many years before, they have basically had their resistance crushed. So, Yegan, tell me how you decided to use this, you know, format to tell the story since 1979. And I'm particularly interested first in your examination of Mehdi Karubi, who is really very compelling in your storytelling. Tell us who he is and why you picked him as a key point person in this story.
- [16:37]
Yeganeh Torbaty
Yeah, Mehdi Kadubi is a really complex and fascinating figure. You know, he is an Islamic cleric who kind of is sort of on the left politically, but very much believes in Khomeini's vision of an Islamic state and joins his movement, is jailed under the Shah, many times, treated quite badly in prison, but remains committed to that movement. And as a result, when the revolution does succeed in 1979, he rises to positions of great power. He eventually becomes parliament speaker at the end of the 1980s, early 90s, and also throughout the 80s, he takes on a role of sort of spreading wealth to the poor in society. And that often meant confiscating properties from the rich and from the people who are associated with the past regime. After Khomeini dies, he is sort of cast out of power by Khomeini's successor, Ali Khamenei, and his allies. And he then and many of his allies on the left sort of begin to rethink some of their Principles and pushed along by this baby boom generation of young people in that era who wanted something new and something different from their governments. That kind of results in the reform movement of the mid to late 1990s. And Mehdi Khadi plays a key role in that and kind of rises back to power, doing his second stint as parliament speaker in that era. And so sort of we kind of follow his story. He eventually runs for president in 2000. He becomes one of the imprisoned under house arrest leaders of the Green Movement in 2009. And his story kind of shows the narrowing of Iran's political system. And also through him, we don't sort of turn away from the mistakes that he also made in the 1980s and the ways in which some of the steps that he took, the institutions that he helped to create then, were the same institutions that oppressed him and his allies later on. And so we just felt like he was a really interesting, complex character to really show the entire arc of the Islamic Republic.
- [18:51]
Christiane Amanpour
And indeed, I covered his presidential campaign along with Mousavi in 2009. And they were trying to unseat the much more hardline Ahmadinejad. And they believed in the end that actually that election had been stolen from them. So bosomir, the Green Revolution, how close was that to actually bringing Iranian people their ability to overthrow, whether or not is get rid of the regime, but change the regime's, you know, very, very hard line attitudesertainly for a long time before that, and most particularly in the Ahmadinejad era, before the 2009 uprising.
- [19:35]
Bozormer Sharifiddine
Yeah, I think it was very close in, in the eyes of many. The Arab uprising started from Tehran in 2009 with the Green Movement because it was the same in nature. It was a youth movement that wanted something more. They wanted to live in a democratic society. But what happened that it failed. But while we see in many other Arab nations, it succeeded. I think the energy was there, but the leaders, Iranian leaders, in this case Mousavi and Karubi, they were not ready. And we see that pattern a lot in Iran's history, that the Iranian leaders are always one step behind the people. So in the Green Movement, many people came to the streets and they were ready to create a fundamental change. But it seems that Karubi and Mousavi were not ready to utilize that street presence the way, for example, Egyptian leaders managed to make the most of Tahrir Square demonstrations. I think I believe we see the same pattern in the reform movement itself after 1997, when Khatami was elected as the President, the energy was there. He was elected with 20 millions of votes and. But he was more cautious than the voters. So that's why that opportunity was also lost.
- [21:05]
Christiane Amanpour
That's so interesting. He was more cautious than the voters. Yegoni, you know very well that many of the opponents of this regime inside Iran, outside Iran, never believed in reform. They said it's just a joke, it's just a ruse. There's no way of reforming this particular system. I don't know whether you have a comment on that, but I'm really interested in your view on, on why not just from 1979, but even before under the Shah, even going all the way back to the, you know, to the constitutional revolution back at the beginning of the 20th century. Iranian regimes and leaders, whether they're monarchist or not, or secular like Mosaddegh or whatever it is, have apparently never been accountable to their people. They just have not had that kind of popular legitimacy. And every time there is a, you know, an uprising, they get crushed. And obviously in the last nearly 50 years as well, do you see it that way? And do you have an answer for why?
- [22:09]
Yeganeh Torbaty
You know, I think that requires sort of maybe a historian or a sociologist. I think it is true that over the last hundred plus years of Iranian history, we've seen these repeated kind of aborted attempts at greater freedom, starting from the Constitutional revolution, going through Mossadegh's movement through 1979, which, you know, we document in the book and many others have as well, that there were elements and large parts of that revolutionary movement that wanted greater freedoms and believe that getting rid of the Shah would, would bring them those freedoms politically. And instead what they, what they got was greatly curtailed social freedoms and eventually very, very, very restrictive political space as well. And so I think, you know, what we, what we sort of try to trace in the book is the fact that the Iranian people keep trying in different ways and they turn to different methods. Whether it's first voting, you know, in 1997, voting in this very unexpected way, really for the first time for a candidate that was not openly favored by the Supreme Leader, we took the system by surprise. Then when that was stymied, you know, they turned to peaceful street protests and they vote again in the Green movement. And then over and over in the last 10 or 15 years or so, we see round after round of protests and, you know, that I don't expect that impulse to go away.
- [23:39]
Christiane Amanpour
So Bozoume, finally, you don't just, you know, focus on leaders and the like, but Also on Ordinary People, for instance, the story of Hila Sediri, a teenager who you report was trying to organize Poetry Nights only to have it shut down over and over again. But she keeps pushing. Eventually, one of the bureaucrats signs the permit and tells her, I'm lighting this fire both for you and for me. It's a small act of resistance, obviously from her, but also from him. So tell me about that and where you think the people of Iran are going to find themselves now in post war Iran. Do you think this regime will understand that they need to respond to the people's needs or else get kicked out?
- [24:26]
Bozormer Sharifiddine
Yeah, I think the way I see the Iranian society is like. Like it. Like a frozen river. So because on the surface we see this ice and we see the political system is very, very rigid, but deep inside we see a flow, a stream, a very strong stream of cultural and social life. And I think Hila Sedighi represents that and that culture, that how Iranians in deeper layers of the society are fighting for freedom. In the book, we didn't want to limit ourselves to the political level because the full Iranian experience, it also includes the cultural and social and also economic layers of the Iranian society, which we explain in the book. Hila represents that social and cultural parts that how she tries to. She tries really hard to find some freedom in the cultural space. She goes through negotiations with many government officials to create some safe space for creating culture. Of course, she's disappointed over and over. But as we see and as we see in her personal life, if she comes back and only fights stronger, and I think that shows the spirit of the nation that whatever is the result of their attempts, if it's failure, they will go and reinvent themselves and come back again.
- [25:52]
Christiane Amanpour
And in 30 seconds, Yegan, obviously one of the biggest was Women Life Freedom. Do you have hope for Iranian women?
- [26:03]
Yeganeh Torbaty
I think, you know, we point out in the book that although Woman Life Freedom failed in its political efforts to unseat the regime, it had a lasting and huge social impact, possibly more than any other movement we've seen in Iran's modern history. And I think that shows you the strength of the Iranian women's movement and their willingness to keep fighting for what they believe are their rights.
- [26:29]
Christiane Amanpour
Yegan Etorbati and Bozor Mercefeddin, thank you both very much. Stolen Revolutions and stay with us. We'll be right back after the break.
- [26:44]
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- [27:15]
Adi Cornish
I'm Adi Cornish.
- [27:16]
Ari Shapiro
I'm Ari Shapiro. And it's engagement party and we get to talk about what we're obsessed with, what we're engaged with, what we need to process with a friend. I went to see Obsession last night because I had to know what the buzz was about. I was the oldest person in the theater by about 20 years, but it was packed on a Monday at 5:30pm Something crazy is going on here.
- [27:35]
Adi Cornish
Well, not so crazy. I mean, I feel like I've been doing the story about the waves of horror in cinema for the last couple of years. And I think the reason why I wanted to talk about it with you is because I was trying to figure out, well, what's different between this moment and something like the mumble corps of the 2000 and tens, right, where you had films like Puffy Chair and we were all doing stories that were like people are doing movies on their own. It's called Bumblecore, you know, and we would like talk about how people were doing this like DIY film stuff.
- [28:09]
Ari Shapiro
Follow engagement party wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:19]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, for something different, the World cup is well underway in North America and it has been a most unusual tournament so far. For the first time, the competition is playing out across three countries. The U.S. canada and Mexico. One of the countries the U.S. has, as you know, been actively bombing a competitor, Iran. And many fans and even some participants have struggled to get visas on the pitch. It's been full of thrills though, including a hat trick from Lionel Messi for Argentina which made him the world joint top all time scorer. And a thrilling performance from Cape verde where their 40 year old goalie kept the Spanish team at bay for the entire match. Let us bring in Financial Times columnist Simon Cooper, himself a football superfan and author of World Cup Fever. Simon Cooper, welcome back to our program.
- [29:12]
Simon Cooper
Hi.
- [29:15]
Christiane Amanpour
So you're in Paris, I think, where you're based. What is your initial commentary on the World Cup? Is it as exciting as you thought? Less.
- [29:24]
Adi Cornish
More.
- [29:24]
Christiane Amanpour
Tell me.
- [29:27]
Simon Cooper
I'm going to Philadelphia tomorrow so I'll start the real thing. I think that after some rather small time games, people are now getting very into it. In the last 24 hours, Mbappe, Messi, Haaland, three of the greats in football have put in brilliant performances. And I think that whereas this World cup started under a cloud of Donald Trump and Gianni Infantino and the terrible ticket prices and the rejections, as you say, of some officials and fans who wanted to come in, now I think the people are starting to forget about that and really enjoy the football, which is probably as it should be.
- [30:06]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. And what matches have stood out for you? You just mentioned the three who've just really done unbelievably. What about lesser knowns like I think Bosnia held there their opponents to a draw. Iran held their opponents to a draw. I mean they're not lesser known but they're less higher ranked. And Cape Verde, tell me about that goalie. It's an incredible story.
- [30:31]
Simon Cooper
Yeah, he plays in the second division in Portugal, he's 40 years old. And Spain were attacking the whole game as you'd expect from the team that were the bookmakers favorites to win the World Cup. And they couldn't even beat Cape Verde playing his first World cup with a team drawn heavily from its diaspora, a lot of players from Rotterdam and it was, it's the first real Cinderella moment we've had so far. I think the whole world loved it. And the U.S. state Department is now even trying to bring the goalkeeper's mother into the US so she can follow the tournament there.
- [31:03]
Christiane Amanpour
Well, wouldn't that be nice? And why was she not allowed before?
- [31:10]
Simon Cooper
I think Cape Verde is one of those countries that it's very difficult to get visas for Donald Trump's usa and so there are whole countries that have not really been able to get any fans Right.
- [31:21]
Christiane Amanpour
And we heard about the Somali referee whose life's dream of being a referee at a World cup wasyou know, was fell victim to the visa program. But as you say, you know all these horror stories and fears and ticket touts and all the high price for thefor the tickets etc. You they play a big part in the run up and then as you said, people start getting into the games. But how do you compare all the pre sort of discomfort around this World cup to other World Cups?
- [31:57]
Simon Cooper
Well, this World cup did start under this cloud of ugliness with I think the lowest point of the last few months with Gianni Infantino, presidents of FIFA giving Donald Trump this made up FIFA peace prize just before Trump attacked Iran and Venezuela. And I think that that was A kind of Che happening of football in the World Cup. But it was the same four years ago, before the World cup in Qatar. This is the third geopolitically turbulent World cup we've had in 2018. The host was Vladimir Putin in Russia. So it's becoming a sort of norm of modern world cups that they happen in places with enormous political problems and darkness, and then the football lights, it's all up.
- [32:40]
Christiane Amanpour
Do you thinkyou know, you've studied this for a long time. Do you think that is paradoxically a good and positive thing, or is it enabling those very, you know, more darker corners of political life? I mean, it could also bring a sort of an openness to some of these countries. I mean, not really Russia, because then they, you know, completed their invasion mania by their full scale aggression against Ukraine a few years later. But Qatar, what do you think the US Might look like after this? Because soccer, football has not been a huge thing in the US has it? Like much of the rest of the world,
- [33:19]
Simon Cooper
it's grown over the last 30 years. The first US World cup was 1994. I think popularity of soccer as a sport for fans is on a par with baseball. It's about third among US Sports. But I don't think the World cup changes the world. I don't think it changes countries. But leaders like Trump and Putin always think it will do them favors. It will, will burnish their aura. But in fact, the World cup is often used against leaders. And so in Qatar, NGOs used it to highlight Qatar's abusers of migrants, of building workers. For example, Vladimir Putin had to let hundreds of journalists into Russia. And also there were a lot of scenes of ordinary Russians hugely enjoying hanging out and dancing and singing with foreign fans, which is not a very Putinesque scene. And similarly, in the US it's not just given a platform to Trump much more. So far, it's given a platform to Zoran Dani, Mayor of New York. He's very fluent in the language of football, who's led the charge against high ticket prices. You've seen a lot of. You've seen, even American police officers have videos all the time of them dancing with foreign fans, guy in Boston juggling a ball for Scottish fans who applaud and hug him. So we're seeing a different us, a us that doesn't have the kind of Trumpian message of we hate the world. We're seeing much more joyous interaction between Americans and foreigners than is part of the Trump resurrection.
- [34:38]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. And it's actually really lovely to see because we've been so, you know, bul versed and bulldozed by this rhetoric, as you mentioned, for the last, you know, at least more than a year. But tell me a little bit about your football mania. Can I call it that? You started, let me get this right, you started watching the World cup basically since 1978. You were an 8 year old child in the Netherlands and you've attended every World cup tournament since 1990. So how has the actual game evolved? What have you noticed in all your years of World cup attendance?
- [35:13]
Simon Cooper
Well, when I first went, there were three teams from the British Isles in 1990. England, Ireland and Scotland, and two from the whole of Asia, and I think two from the whole of Africa. So what's happened in the last 36 years is the World cup, it used to be a kind of European, Latin American duopoly and now it really does include the whole world. So you have Cape Verde, you have Senegal, you have Haiti, and there's something lovely about that. Of course, the World cup should belong to everyone. And it's watched enormously all over Africa and parts of Asia. And so it's great that it's now really the world's party. The Western Europeans plus Argentina are still the best, but the internationalism of the World cup, the openness to all, is new.
- [35:55]
Christiane Amanpour
Yes, indeed. And I've just been told that actually the Cape Verde goalkeeper's mum, who we were just talking about, there is news that she has been confirmed that she will be attending the next match. So that's great. Now, the next match for.
- [36:08]
Bozormer Sharifiddine
For.
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Christiane Amanpour
For England is tonight after this show airs, before it airs in the United States. And team England will play its very first match against Croatia. Tell me what you predict.
- [36:24]
Simon Cooper
It's folly to predict individual football matches. So England are a strong team, stronger than before. Logically, they should win. Croatia star player Luka Modric, 40, which is amazing that he's still there at 40, but football matches really goes for him. That's part of the joy of the sport. It favors the underdog. But I've just written a piece in the Financial Times saying this might be the best England since 1966, which is the only year they ever won the World Cup.
- [36:48]
Christiane Amanpour
But why tell me? I haven't read the full article and our viewers won't have done yet, but I'm directing them to your article or the super soccer fans. Why do you think so?
- [37:00]
Simon Cooper
Essentially, the English embraced European football. So whereas the country brexited from the European Union, the English over the last 30 years have said, you Know what? The continental Europeans play better. They have the short passing game. It works, and they've adopted it. And the English have really gone for it in a scientific way. They have data analysts. They have the best physical trainers. They plan their corner kicks to minutiae. So it's become a very kind of professional, scientific and European setup in the England team, which some might say would be a nice model for the UK As a whole.
- [37:33]
Christiane Amanpour
And just finally, because there's always very dark corners, we've talked about some of them, but there's quite a lot of, you know, conversation in Mexico, which is one of the host countries, it's basically done a huge amount to refurbish and spank, you know, really make the place look good, beefing up all its resources. But also, there's a spotlight because they're highlighting the more than 130,000 people who've gone missing in the drug war there. Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum says the World cup will show the world who Mexico is. What, what does the world see? And what should the world see about Mexico?
- [38:10]
Simon Cooper
Well, the government always wants to show the face of a kind of welcoming country with good infrastructure, where you just go on holiday and invest. But it's right that a lot of Mexicans have been protesting to find out what happened to these enormous numbers of people who have disappeared in the drug wars, some believe with some government complicity. So it's an example of how governments try to use the World cup, but often ordinary people use it against them. So we're seeing a lot of Mexican argument be conducted around the tournament.
- [38:41]
Christiane Amanpour
Simon Cooper, thank you very much indeed. And we'll be right back after this short break.
- [38:53]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We're talking to Dr. Alexander Mosskop. He's author of the book called the End of Migraines, and he's the founder and director of the New York Headache Center. He's going to tell us why headaches hurt, what's really happening in your head, and what you can do about it. What is the first thing you sort of recommend then, in terms of lifestyle?
- [39:17]
Simon Cooper
So sleep deprivation is number one, and people are busy not getting enough sleep.
- [39:21]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
That's probably part of the reason headaches have gone up, just because we're getting less and less sleep.
- [39:25]
Simon Cooper
You're right. Diet is a very important factor as well. Lowering your carbs can definitely help. Three out of four migraine sufferers suffer from reactive hypoglycemia, which means you eat something sweet or carbs. Sugar goes up and then plummets.
- [39:43]
Dr. Sanjay Gupta
Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:53]
Christiane Amanpour
Now, as we've said, leaders from some of the world's most powerful countries today wrapped up their three day G7 summit in France focused on tackling major wars like the ones on Iran and Ukraine. But hovering overhead, the uninvited rising superpower, China. For more, here's Elizabeth Economy, senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution with Walter Isaacson.
- [40:17]
Elizabeth Economy
Thank you, Chris, John and Elizabeth Economy, welcome to the show.
- [40:22]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Thanks, Walter. Great to be here.
- [40:24]
Elizabeth Economy
President Trump and our Western European allies are meeting for the G7 summit this week. Tell me how the Iran deal is going to affect the relationship between the US and its G7 allies and affect the region.
- [40:41]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
I mean, you know, it's great news. Obviously, the US And Iran have a memorandum of understanding. They're supposed to to sign the deal later this week on Friday. And, you know, it leads to a cessation of hostilities. There's a plan for longer term negotiations around two months that will hopefully lead to a new agreement on the part of Iran to halt its nuclear weapons program. And of course, this is going to open back up the Strait of Hormuz. So I think, you know, from the perspective of this meeting, the G7 meeting, having President Trump arrive, be able to announce that a deal has been reached is all a positive. And the Europeans, I think, are interested in figuring out how they can support the deal moving forward, beginning with, I think, working to clear minds from the Strait of Hormuz. So I think it's a good beginning for the G7 meeting to start off with this deal and certainly for the region which has been battered by this war over the past four months or so, this is very welcome news. Of course, there are skeptics about the durability of this deal. We've had ceasefires before. But I think there's a fairly strong commitment, at least on the part of the United States, to try to make this stick. So, you know, we'll hold on to some optimism perhaps until proved otherwise.
- [42:01]
Elizabeth Economy
Hovering over this week's G7 summit, of course, is China. What is the differences and what are the alliances or the alignments of Europe and the United States when it comes to dealing with China.
- [42:15]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
You know, China has been sort of occupied a fairly central position on the G7 agenda for, I'd say about five years now. Now. And there are really two sets of issues where you find the United States and the other G7 partners in fairly close alignment. You know, one is around sort of trade and investment where all these countries face similar challenges from China's economic model. And that's true whether we're talking about, you know, China's economic coercion. So you know, for example when Australia called for investigation into the origins of COVID and China started to boycott a lot of Australian goods coming into the. Into the into. So these countries have developed sort of an anti coercion platform around which they will work together to support countries that are facing economic coercion from China. Certainly we've seen over the past just two or three years efforts on critical minerals and rare earth elements and efforts to develop alignment on exploring new sources of mining and refining of these rare earths because there's too much dependence on China in this space. So that issue of supply chain dependency is I think another area where there's alignment within the G7 and we've seen sort of new, new arrangements emerge and then I think in terms of trade defense measures. So China's export of its overcapacity is a, you know, a source of very serious concern for all the G7 members. Right. We've seen it in the clean tech space and solar panels and batteries and EVs and we're going to see it across, you know, a whole array of, of other technologies and alignment again around tariffs, around export controls, on investment screening. So there's a lot of work to be done in aligning our policies around these areas and sort of cooperating together. So not just even aligning but cooperating. And then I think the second area where the G7 has sort of focused on China has been in terms of China's role on the global security front. And here of course China has been know, sort of an economic lifeline for Russia in Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. And you know, that's been very problematic. And, and also China's sort of destabilizing behavior in the Indo Pacific. That's another area where the G7 has taken note and has sort of called out that you know, sort of negative action by Beijing. And you know, frankly speaking, the whole sort of emerging axis of China, Russia, North Korea and Iran is that I think greatly concerns the G7.
- [45:01]
Elizabeth Economy
Well, you talk about reducing the dependency on China for supply chain for rare earth minerals. Sometimes talk about de risking which is there's a risk if we rely too much on China. And yet if we proceed down this path, doesn't that make it harder to kind of wean China away from its alliance with Russia and Iran?
- [45:24]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Well, I don't think so. I mean I think there's sort of two separate issues, really. You know, China depends on Iran and Russia really, for natural resources. It aligns with those countries on political grounds more than and security grounds more than necessarily on economic grounds. And so the issue of de risking is actually something that China itself does does. China has been de risking, you know, its own economy for a decade or more, right? Diversifying, you know, we've seen it diversify, for example, its sources of energy extremely successfully, right. In terms of both, you know, from clean energy to, you know, oil and gas, from many different sources to nuclear power. China's been doing this very aggressively. It's been de risking its supply chain across, again, a whole array of critical technologies. Xi Jinping is essentially, you know, the Chinese leaders essentially try and to create fortress China. You know, he talks all the time about the need for China to have, you know, independence in, you know, its food security, in its energy security, and in its technology security. So that's been China's approach for its own economy for a very long period of time. So really, it's the United States and, you know, other advanced democracies just playing catch up in many respects to what China has already been doing and recognizing the risks that come from this over dependence. And, you know, frankly speaking, we didn't even realize this, I think, until Covid, when we became acutely aware of our dependence on China for the personal protective equipment, right, the masks and the gloves and the ventilators that we needed. And they were in such short supply. And we saw to some extent China weaponized those things. Right. China can use things like this ppe, like its control over active pharmaceutical industrial ingredients. Right. The precursors that we need for so many of our drugs and as you mentioned, the rare earths and critical minerals. Right. When China decides to turn off, you know, its exports, right. The entire world suffers. And so I think it's in, you know, it's really imperative, frankly, that we begin to develop alternative sources for these goods.
- [47:44]
Elizabeth Economy
Well, let's talk about the Belt, the Belted Rubber Road Initiative. Exactly. How does that get countries to align with China? And does the west have a suitable counterpart?
- [47:59]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
So Belt and Road Initiative began as a sort of hard infrastructure play back in 2013. That's when Xi Jinping first announced it. And at the time, it was really about connecting some lesser developed Chinese cities and regions to external markets through infrastructure investment, so ports and railroads and highways. It has evolved since then to include, you know, the Digital Silk Road, which is all about, you know, subsea cables and the digital infrastructure, 4G 5G data centers. Right. E payment systems, satellite systems. There's the health Silk Road which sort of came to fruition during COVID export of Chinese medical technology. And then the Green Silk Road, which is about the clean tech space. You know, does the Belt and Road enable China to get countries to align with it? I think there is not evidence really, for example, in UN votes that for example, countries that receive the most investment from China necessarily align with China on issues that are important to China. In the United nations, we haven't seen that, that kind of alignment emerging. And frankly speaking, in many countries there have been a lot of pop popular protests around Belt and Road projects. So even as though many of those projects are welcomed certainly by leaders, there's a lot of consternation at the local level.
- [49:25]
Christiane Amanpour
Why?
- [49:26]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Because China often has exported its own labor to do the projects, which means local communities don't benefit. Often the governance around these projects is not very strong. So no social impact assessments or environmental impact assessments. Deals are struck in a non transparent way. Right. So you know, a lot of local people may believe that their leaders are pocketing some side money and then sometimes the quality of the projects is not particularly high. So even though the infrastructure support is much needed and again welcomed because oftentimes Western companies are not willing to go in to do this kind of work, the projects have not been uniformly successful. About a third of them have either been canceled or stalled, run into very significant, significant difficulty.
- [50:15]
Elizabeth Economy
Well, you talk about the diff.
- [50:17]
David Sanger
Yeah, go ahead.
- [50:18]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Yeah, I was gonna say, that being said to your, to your point about, you know, does the west offer a comparable, you know, sort of competitive kind of project? No. And, and there have been a number of efforts in the past couple of administrations, in US administrations to do that. And I would say none of them has succeeded. And you know, we've tried working with partners and allies to do this, but it's very difficult. Again, you know, if you looking at the Chinese priority areas of mining, of digital infrastructure and of clean tech, they really dominate. And you know, you're looking at, you know, going into mining in places where western companies just haven't wanted to go. This is too difficult to do that. But Chinese companies, heavily subsidized, you know, are in it for the long term. Right. And they don't mind the conditions and they don't mind working, you know, in very challenging conditions. And so they've, they have a long term strategy that is paying off and we're facing the consequences. That being said, I, I think it's Important to recognize that despite all of the attention that Belt and Road gets, if you look across the world, China is the largest source of investment in none of these regions. So, you know, Europe is the largest investor in Africa, Japan is the largest investor in Southeast Asia, and the United States is the largest investor in Latin America. So it's just our kinds of investment are different. We don't tend to do the high profile infrastructure projects.
- [51:47]
Elizabeth Economy
Well, the US The US has retreated a lot from global leadership. You've talked a lot about Belt and Road. We've pulled back on both foreign investment, but obviously USAID likewise, relationships with our NATO allies, we've pulled back back on that. To what extent does that help China and to what extent are they successful at capitalizing on that?
- [52:13]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
I think that's a really, it's a really important distinction to make. Certainly the Trump administration has withdrawn the United States from its traditional position as, you know, the most important sort of global provider of public goods. We have, you know, stressed our, you know, certainly our NATO allies threatened to withdraw from NATO, threatened to invade Greenland. We have taken our political model off the table as a sort of source of competition. We have a non ideological foreign policy. So we're no longer interested in promoting ourselves as, you know, a democracy that no longer matters to this particular administration. That's not a, we don't consider that a selling point anymore. So we, and as you say, we've, you know, basically shuttered usaid, which is, you know, meant that we've taken ourselves out of this space of providing aid to some of the world's, you know, poorest and, you know, most impoverished countries. It was really important source of assistance for these countries and frankly an important source of US Soft power. So we've definitely taken a step back. I think our reputation globally has clearly suffered. That's evident from, from an array of global public opinion polls. Our reputation is sinking, is almost sunk, whereas China is rising a little bit. But the truth is China has not been able to capitalize, I think, very effectively. And the reason behind that is it promotes itself as a stabilizing force in the global economy and in the global system. But again, countries look at what China's doing in terms of the export of its overcapacity. That's not stabilized for other economies. When China weaponizes its control of rare earth elements, it's not stabilizing for other countries. You know, when China undertakes sort of its military assertive actions in the Indo Pacific, not stabilizing, supporting Russia and Iran, not stabilizing. So it hasn't sort of undertaken what it has promised, which is to be a stabilizing force in the, in the global economy, in the sort of global security arena. And frankly, it has, it hasn't stepped up to fill the vacuum that's been left by the United States in terms of the provision of global aid. So, you know, initially China, you know, went to a few countries and said, oh, we will replace the United States for this, you know, million or $2 million program. But it has made very clear that it is not planning to replace, you know, what the United States used to do with usaid. China's overseas development assistance is a fraction, a tiny fraction of what the United States traditionally has provided globally.
- [55:00]
Elizabeth Economy
Elizabeth Economy, thank you so much for joining us.
- [55:03]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
Thank you.
- [55:06]
Christiane Amanpour
And finally, the streets of downtown Cairo are awash with art. That's thanks to a new Egyptian government initiative to reshape public spaces. From traditional folk performances, painting, music and acrobatics, you can see huge part of Cairo's cultural makeup. From just one street, the art street effort to revive cultural life creates open space for residents and tourists to enjoy while emerging artists get to showcase their work. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. The thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
- [55:58]
Anderson Cooper
Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. My guest today is Amanda Peet. She's an actress, a producer, and a writer. In Late August of 2025, Amanda was diagnosed with breast cancer. The following day, her father died and her mom died some four months later.
- [56:20]
Amanda Peet
I was really at a remove. Like I was watching it from some kind of altitude, maybe for both things, like the cancer, and also felt like a weird sense of like I'm stealing bases, like I had one foot on the cancer and I was trying to, like, connect with the fact that my dad was dying and honor him by, by thinking about him, by being present,
- [56:44]
Anderson Cooper
talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.