Christiane Amanpour (4:46)

So, Jeff, what happens next? Everybody has pointed to, finally, the speaker of the House seating the Democratic congresswoman from Arizona after keeping her essentially away from taking her seat for many, many weeks. What does this actually mean in this case?

Jeff Zeleny (5:03)

So what this means in this case is that was the 218th vote. So that meant the House now has enough votes, enough support to essentially go over the rules of the speaker, it's called a discharge petition, and have a full vote of the House. So Speaker Mike Johnson on Wednesday evening finally agreed after not agreeing for months and months. Finally, the House next week will vote on the full release, urging the Justice Department to fully release all of the Epstein filesthe case files. That doesn't mean it's going to happen. Of course. The Senate would have to vote on it. That is unlikely. But what this means is that House Republicans now will have to take a stand and vote on this. And the White House has mounted a massive pressure campaign trying to not even allow it to get to this step. Something happened yesterday in the Situation Room of the White House that was quite extraordinary. This is the fifth American president I've Covered. Never can I recall a White House situation room meeting on a matter like this. Not of national security, but the Attorney General of the United States, the Deputy Attorney General, the FBI Director, all summoned one member of Congress, Lauren Boebert from Colorado, a Republican, who had been sort of on the fence. She's obviously very supportive of Trump, but she also wants transparency. In this case, she did not give in to the pressure. She signed this discharge of petition. So now the full vote will be next week. But I am told there is a full pressure campaign from the White House to try and not let there be a wave of House Republicans voting to release these files because the White House is trying to not allow that to happen. Again, the bottom line here, what did the President know about Jeffrey Epstein's conduct? And if it was nothing, why are they going to such great lengths here to try and stop this? Again, we should say the President has not been accused or charged of any wrongdoing. This is a friendship from long ago. But he, like many other famous people at the time, had a relationship with Epstein and many people, including his own supporters, who started all of this, who talked about relig releasing all these files. And the President, as he was running for president during his campaign last year, he agreed to release the files. Of course, now he's in power, he has not agreed to it. So that is in a nutshell, why this has become an issue for the White House.

Christiane Amanpour (7:16)

And just finally you talked about the Representative Bobbert who was taken into the Situation Room over this. What is the situation with those MAGA Republicans? Is it causing a fissure or are they sort of kind of over it and talking about other issues? And would they, I don't know, work with Democrats to bring this to, you know, a complete vote to release all these things.

Jeff Zeleny (7:41)

Christiane, that's been so interesting about this. The politics are a bit upside down of what they used to be. Democrats used to really not talk about this at all. This was a MAGA issue, if you will issue important to the President's base. Now that the President's in power, it's flipped somewhat. But for some of those House Republicans, they still believe that transparency is the most important effort here. Nancy Mace from South Carolina, Lauren Boebert from Colorado, Thomas Massie from Kentucky, all Republicans are leading the charge that they say these files should be released. So it's not as toxic or front of mind in the MAGA world, if you will, among some, but among many sort of others, they want there to be transparency here. So it's hard to Imagine this really ever going away and the president moving beyond this until there is more. And again, the simple question is, why not release the files? The president campaigned on that. His supporters wanted it at the time. And now suddenly he's calling it a hoax. But we have heard that word before. And usually when President Trump is calling something a hoax, there is more to the story than that. So we'll see what that House vote happens next week. And Christian, my eye is on how many Republicans are going to vote really against the wishes of the White House and vote to release the full files of the Department of Justice.

Christiane Amanpour (8:58)

Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much for bringing us up to date. Now, meantime, also in the United States, New York's mayor elect is getting ready to lead the city after his historic win. Zoran Mamdani's unprecedented campaign captivated people not just in America, but also around the world. His relentless focus on affordability and his effective social media messaging galvanized younger voters. In particular, the Democratic Socialist is part of a larger movement of left wing politicians now trying to take on the right. It's a tactic being employed here in the UK Also by the Green Party. And Zach Polanski just took over as their new leader. And since then, the party has surged in the polls and membership has doubled. Reacting to Mamdani's win, Polanski declared hope has triumphed over hate. And he's joining me here now in the studio. Welcome to the program.

Zach Polanski (9:49)

Thanks so much for having me.

Christiane Amanpour (9:50)

Yeah. With all of this conversation and this division that we see in the United States and the pile on which you remember, well, about Mamdani at the beginning from those who were opposed to his candidacy in the establishment, do you think this is a moment where something other than right wing populist nationalism, left wing populism, I don't know, is making a stand, can make a stand.

Zach Polanski (10:15)

I think it absolutely needs to be. Otherwise, our planet is under threat. And people who really need an alternative, some of our poorest communities around the world are under threat, too. I think, first of all, it's important to define the word populism. So as I see it, it's the 99% versus the 1% for 1% being multimillionaires and billionaires, elites who have taken our power, our wealth and our assets. And I believe it's time to take them back. Now, the 99% is an incredibly unifying message because actually that's about working class people, small business owners, medium business owners, disabled people, people who aren't in work, everyone who has so much more in common than a tiny small elite who are often. Journalism is a hugely noble profession. There are journalists dying around the world to report in conflict zones. However, there is a section of journalism, particularly I would say in the uk, that has given over to right wing tropes, where the multimillionaires and billionaires who often donate to the politicians also own those organizations. And they've relentlessly attacked me here in the uk. And we've seen this with Zoran in the us. But where I get hope from is Zoran has demonstrated that hope can triumph in the end.

Christiane Amanpour (11:26)

And you have actually spoken about the similarities you feel with him in terms of his campaigning tactics, in terms of his strategy. I'm really interested in how you're defining terms. You call yourself, I believe, an eco populist, right. Zoram Mamdani has called himself a democratic socialist. Everybody wants to call him just a socialist. And some even go so far as saying communist. You know, how do you think he can get over that naming that people are using to undermine him, saying that he's against the American way? But I mean, we know that socialism is an actual thing where the state captures much of the production capabilities. And that's not what he's talking about.

Zach Polanski (12:09)

Well, I think the way he can do it is by lowering people's bills and giving universal free childcare and affordable rents. And I think people aren't worried about the labels, they're worried about what are you delivering for them. And the reason why I talk about eco populism is that is the idea that if you're worried about the food on your table, the heat in your homes, then the climate crisis can feel a very distant threat. Now we know that the climate crisis will hit the people who have done the least to cause it the hardest. It's going to hit working class communities. However, if you're someone who's struggling just to get through the day, then it's very difficult to start as an entry point. And I think what Zoran's really demonstrated is to rise above these labels. Parts of the media can talk all they want about. He's getting out there and speaking to grassroots communities and.

Christiane Amanpour (12:52)

Quite a diverse constituency. Given the massive margin of his victory, massively so.

Zach Polanski (12:57)

And I think the big thing that people get wrong with him is there's a kind of obsessive focus on his social media and his communication style. Now, don't get me wrong, his social media is excellent. And I've certainly modeled myself on some of this.

Christiane Amanpour (13:07)

I was going to ask you about it.

Zach Polanski (13:08)

And his communication, he's an exceptional communicator. You really feel what he's transmitting and it just comes off completely authentic. However, I think the most important thing is the message he's actually saying, which is a message about inequality and affordability. Because if you have great social media, but you don't have a good message, you're just exposing the nothingness and the vapidity that we have with so many modern politicians. If you have a great message but you don't have the communication style, no one's going to hear you. And what he's done is combine both and that's the winning combination.

Christiane Amanpour (13:36)

So you explain you then now to us because as I let in, you know, the latest or the newest leader of the Green Party and its membership has doubled and you're surging in the polls, you've got four seats in Parliament. That's not a lot, given what the other bigger parties have. You're not likely to be Prime Minister anytime soon. But how do you explain your rise?

Zach Polanski (14:00)

I mean, it's been a phenomenal moment for the Green Party and a really exciting moment for the country. Since I've got elected, we've doubled our membership. Today there was a second poll out where we were above the Labour government in second place. So that's an incredible rise. Very, very quickly. Now, polls, members, they don't ultimately mean anything unless you win seats. So I accept the challenge. I want to make sure at the next election we are mobilizing to win seats. There's been a lot of focus about the fact that 18 to 24 year olds are joining the Green Party in huge droves and that's amazing. I'm excited and inspired by the younger generation. I should say, though, every time I go on TV and say this, I get so many messages from people who are over 50 and say, don't forget about us. We have joined the Green Party too. And actually we are sick of the old party politics. We're very, very worried about Nigel Farage and the right and the rise of division and hatred. And actually they're really excited by the politics of hope community and a politics that says, let's lower our bills and let's tax billionaires. I think that's a message that works with lots of diverse coalitions.

Christiane Amanpour (14:58)

So obviously a lot of other people just hate it when they hear about a wealth tax and people say it's going to drive the, you know, the wealth makers away, it's going to suffer the economy and jobs and all the rest of it. But I'm really interesting, interested in what you say about you might have ideas, but if you don't have a message, it's not going to work. Certainly the right, and you can see with maga, you can see with Brexit and even reform, they have a very clear message. It's very disciplined. It's about immigration, it's about, you know, the economy. It's about essentially also fear. And it appears that the left wing has not had such a clear message to actually go head to head. Do you think that's changing?

Zach Polanski (15:41)

Yeah, it's something I've been thinking about a long time. I think if you're on the right, there are very powerful communicators on the right and you have to give credit to that.

Christiane Amanpour (15:47)

Yeah, they really are.

Zach Polanski (15:48)

But very often I would say they are not based in information. In fact, they're based in misinformation and they have powerful stories that emotionally connect and that's how they change people's minds. On the left, I would argue for a long time across the world, the left get very involved with data and spreadsheets and that's really important. You've got to start with science and research and be factual in what you're talking. But if you stay there and you don't also have an emotive story, then people get pulled in by the fear every single time. Hope is an incredibly powerful emotion, but it needs to be hope combined with delivery and a whole suite of policies that are going to change people's material living conditions. I believe that's what we've got on the left now in the UK with the Green Party of England and Wales. But I'm also seeing it right across the world. We see it with Zoram, we see it with Claudia in Mexico, we see it with lots of socialists or left wing progressives around the world. And we are starting to win.

Christiane Amanpour (16:36)

And do you count in there the centrist who won against the far right in the Netherlands?

Zach Polanski (16:40)

Well, I mean, anyone who defeats the far right is someone you know, that's a celebration. I have. I do ultimately worry though that centrism or this idea that a wealth tax won't work. If people kind of buy into those ideas, I do worry that they might hold power for a few years. But if you don't change people's living conditions, something even worse than the previous far right will turn up. And we just keep going into this spiral. And I think that's a lesson Keir Starmer really needs to learn right now. He went on a message of change in the UK but actually not a lot has changed. We had 14 years of Conservative underinvestment. Labour have continued that same program. And so what he's doing is he's handing this country on a plate to Nigel Farage. And even if he stops him temporarily, something worse than Nigel Farage will turn up. And that's why I think it's really important we win these arguments on wealth tax, because again, coming back to the research and science, all of it shows that an unequal society is bad for everyone, including multimillionaires and billionaires. And a fairer, more equal society is actually good for everyone, including the super rich, because a happy, healthier society is good for everyone's well being.

Christiane Amanpour (17:42)

That's one way of putting it on climate, which is your thing. I mean, the Green Party, you know that President Trump has taken a view about climate change, the climate crisis, he's called it a hoax. I just want to play to remind everybody what he said about climate at the UN this past September.

Donald Trump (18:01)

It's climate change. Because if it goes higher or lower, whatever the hell happens, this climate change, it's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion. Climate change, no matter what happens, you're involved in that. No more global warming, no more global cooling. All of these predictions made by the United nations and many others, often for bad reasons, were wrong. They were made by stupid people that have cost their countries fortunes and given those same countries no chance for success. If you don't get away from this green scam, your country is going to fail.

Christiane Amanpour (18:42)

So I want your reaction to that, but also in terms of not just the moral cause of climate planet the planet, but also the economic opportunity to lift a nation's economy by going into this new green technology. You know, I had Vice President Al Gore on the show yesterday and he said, why doesn't anybody talk about the subsidies all governments give to the fossil fuel industry, for instance?

Zach Polanski (19:06)

Absolutely. I think your question is so well put because if we remove those subsidies to fossil fuel companies, we could be using that same money to invest in what's known as the just transition. And all I mean by that is investing in the new industries and renewables and solar and wind in making sure that if people are going to lose their jobs, that we make sure they've got different jobs to go into. Now, the best time to do this would have been a decade or two ago. It hasn't been done. We can't relitigate history. But what we can do working with the trade unions and workers is making sure that we put those workers at the heart of those plans right now so they can co design what that future looks like in terms of Donald Trump. Look, I'm a politician, so I always want to be as diplomatic as possible. But it's very difficult to call him anything but a fool. This is a man who is, this is sociopathic behavior. He's selling our children and our grandchildren down the river for a profit. He is the very epitome of someone who is knee deep and sky high invested interests with fossil fuel companies who will say anything that is convenient to him at any moment, who is science denying, who is toxic, who is misogynistic and racist. And I think it's pretty clear that I'm not a huge fan of Donald Trump.

Christiane Amanpour (20:09)

It's pretty clear. I want to ask you a personal question. Finally, Mamdani made waves being the first Muslim mayor of New York City. You're Jewish. Your family changed the name to Paulden to avoid anti Semitism. You changed it back to Polanski. It's a major problem anti Semitism around and in politics, and it appears in domestic politics. It was a big part of the New York City race. How do you navigate that as an issue?

Zach Polanski (20:36)

I think I always make sure that I center people who are experiencing racism every day or indeed this often gets conflated with the genocide in Gaza and to make sure that I center the plight of the Palestinians. In terms of my personal experience, I do suffer lots of anti Semitism online, but actually I find that I just stay focused as I do with any hate, and actually go, what am I in politics for? I'm in it to empower people to work with grassroots communities. And actually it's not about me at all. I think the work I'm most proud of, though is when I work with people like my Muslim deputy leader, Moten Ali in the Green Party. I think that's a very powerful message to have a Jewish leader and a Muslim deputy leader because we both recognize that antisemitism and Islamophobia are two sides of the same coin and the best response to hatred is solidarity.

Christiane Amanpour (21:21)

That's a hopeful note. Zach Polanski, thank you very much for having me. Thank you. And stay with us because we'll be back right after the break.

Anderson Cooper (21:31)

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexities. You'll hear deeply moving and honest discussions with people who have faced and are living with life altering losses. I first met Kenny Chesney nearly 20 years ago when I did a profile of him for CBS's 60 Minutes. Kenny's written a memoir called Heart Life Music about his incredible journey.

Alex Winter (21:55)

I was one of those guys that really didn't have dogs in their life.

Anderson Cooper (21:58)

It's a connection as strong as any other for many people.

Alex Winter (22:01)

When Ruby passed, it was really, really difficult. It was as terrible as any friend I've ever had that has passed.

Anderson Cooper (22:09)

Talking grief, building community. New episodes of All There Is come out Tuesday nights. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Christiane Amanpour (22:24)

Now to Broadway and the revival of a masterpiece. Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot was first performed in the 1950s, but decades later, the surreal tragicomedy continues to captivate theatre goers. And this time a star studded cast is grabbing their attention. Hollywood actors Keanu Reeves and Alex Winter, the Bill and Ted film co stars, reunite on stage as the central characters Vladimir and Estragon. And they're joining me now from the Hudson Theater in Manhattan.

Alex Winter (22:53)

Hello to.

Christiane Amanpour (22:54)

Welcome to the program.

Jamie Lloyd (22:59)

Hello.

Keanu Reeves (23:00)

Hi.

Christiane Amanpour (23:00)

Hi.

Alex Winter (23:00)

Thank you for having us.

Christiane Amanpour (23:02)

It's a great pleasure. Now, should we just put the pronunciation to bed? I call it Godot. What do you call it?

Alex Winter (23:12)

Gado.

Christiane Amanpour (23:13)

Mm. Keanu.

Keanu Reeves (23:18)

Agato.

Christiane Amanpour (23:20)

All right. I'm not going to ask you why.

Keanu Reeves (23:22)

We understand, we understand. I mean, go ahead. No, no, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's. It comes inherently with the play, right?

Christiane Amanpour (23:29)

Yeah.

Keanu Reeves (23:30)

You know, North America, if you read it, you know, oftentimes it's Godot. When you play the part, when you do the play from other performers in the past connected to Beckett and otherwise, it's Godot. And there's many elements in the play that suggest that in the performing of the play, the pronunciation Goddo works much better with the text.

Christiane Amanpour (23:52)

All right. Now, I think people who've never read the play or seen the play always knows the title. Waiting for Godot has become a common parlance. But for someone who's never seen. How would you describe this play?

Alex Winter (24:15)

I mean, it is a play about two very close and old friends who are trapped in an indeterminate location in an indeterminate time who are trying to find a reason to live and survive. And it's a play that interrogates sort of the questions of meaning and life and spirituality and friendship and many, many other things.

Keanu Reeves (24:38)

And it's a comedy and it's a tragedy. It's a tragic comedy.

Alex Winter (24:43)

It is indeed.

Christiane Amanpour (24:44)

I feel like letting you carry on because it's a. It's a good performance right here. But listen, you talk about a friendship, and obviously the origin story is Bill and Ted kind of do Beckett casting you as Vladimir and Estragon either makes perfect sense or no sense. Whose idea was it to bring you together to play and how, Seriously, how did it get to Broadway?

Keanu Reeves (25:12)

That was my brilliant idea. And about three and a half years ago, I rang up Alex and said, hey, do you want to do this play? And you said, I do. And then he said, we need a director. And I guess you know Jamie Lloyd. And we went on, we invited him to meet, and we met in New York City.

Jamie Lloyd (25:34)

Yeah.

Alex Winter (25:35)

So we had time. We've had several years to do the work on the play. We both knew it was a monumental thing to do. We both have done theater and are very big fans of Beckett, and we wanted to sort of bite off this thing. And Jamie Lloyd had done a ton of work with Pinter and has done a great job of bringing classics into the modern era as well as doing modern plays. So it was a good fit. It proved to be a very good fit, thankfully.

Christiane Amanpour (26:01)

Well, look, I'm going to play a snippet. We've been given a few little clips, so I'm going to play a little bit, and then I want to get to you just say, it took a long time to study up and to prepare to do this. And I find that quite fascinating. So let's. Let's listen to this first.

Donald Trump (26:16)

He must have had a vision.

Jamie Lloyd (26:18)

What? You must have had a vision.

Keanu Reeves (26:20)

No need to shout. Do you?

Donald Trump (26:23)

Oh, pardon.

Keanu Reeves (26:24)

Carry on.

Donald Trump (26:24)

No, no, after you.

Keanu Reeves (26:25)

No, no, you first.

Alex Winter (26:26)

I interrupted you.

Keanu Reeves (26:27)

On the contrary.

Alex Winter (26:28)

Ceremonious.

Jamie Lloyd (26:29)

Ape.

Alex Winter (26:29)

Punctilious.

Donald Trump (26:30)

Finish a phrase, I tell you.

Christiane Amanpour (26:32)

Finish your own.

Zach Polanski (26:32)

Moron.

Keanu Reeves (26:33)

That's the idea. Let's abuse each other.

Anderson Cooper (26:38)

Moron.

Jamie Lloyd (26:38)

Vermin.

Alex Winter (26:39)

Abortion.

Jamie Lloyd (26:40)

Morphian.

Alex Winter (26:40)

Sewer rat.

Keanu Reeves (26:41)

Curate.

Donald Trump (26:42)

Cretin. Critic.

Christiane Amanpour (26:47)

Well, it's all getting big laughs from the audience. But what does the scene tell us about your relationship? Well, at least the relationship between Vladimir and Estragon. Who are they to each other?

Jamie Lloyd (27:02)

I don't.

Keanu Reeves (27:03)

Well, there's.

Jamie Lloyd (27:03)

There's love.

Keanu Reeves (27:04)

Companionship.

Alex Winter (27:07)

History.

Keanu Reeves (27:08)

History.

Alex Winter (27:10)

And, you know, sense of surviving together and being together too long. Fear of mortality. I think I'm afraid of your health and you're afraid of mine. And, you know, we're refugees. I think it's sort of quite clear the things that the text gives you is there is a refugee component to who we are in the world that we live in. We have performed together. That's in the text. And those are things you can.

Keanu Reeves (27:37)

I'm a philosopher, and I'm kind of nature, you know what I mean? Like, being in philosophy, I think that there's a kind of side. Two sides of a coin, of a way of being a points of view.

Alex Winter (27:48)

Yeah. You're rooted to the earth, and my head is sort of up there. Yeah. Literally.

Christiane Amanpour (27:53)

Do you know, you've just. You've just, you know, actually just acted out right now something I read in the research that Jamie Lloyd, the director, when. When you were practicing and reading, he talked about Alex looking with love and fondness as Reeves performs a scene at Babbo. And I thought that was really a cool thing for a director to take from. From you two friends and his two stars. How does your long. Well, tell me about that. How difficult was it to get this right, and how did the friendship and the love that you had for each other help?

Alex Winter (28:34)

Well, the friendship helps in a number of ways, not the least of which we trust each other, and we have a performing bond and a friendship bond. And the play is about friends, so we can use that in the play. But it also means that embarking on this very intense journey together meant we were doing it with someone who you knew you liked and got along with and would be laughing during the times when you want to cry and crying with laughter. That's right. So there's a lot to it, frankly, that both informs the play and also just makes the process itself easier.

Christiane Amanpour (29:09)

Was it. I mean, I think Samuel Beckett is kind of intimidating just to read and try to figure him out and not. Not to mention playing this iconic play. You. You came to reading. I think you went to the library, you searched for months and months through the archives, and as you say, it took a long time. How difficult, involved, intense. Was the practice before you even got to the.

Keanu Reeves (29:36)

And fun.

Christiane Amanpour (29:37)

And fun, of course.

Keanu Reeves (29:38)

And fun.

Christiane Amanpour (29:38)

And fun.

Jamie Lloyd (29:39)

Yeah.

Keanu Reeves (29:40)

I mean, it's extraordinary to do that research.

Jamie Lloyd (29:43)

Right.

Keanu Reeves (29:44)

And the artists that we spoke to, the archivists, the biographer of Beckett, actors who have performed it, people who knew.

Alex Winter (29:53)

Beckett, who had worked with him as actors and colleagues. Yeah, it was very, very rewarding. We had a. It was a really. We were lucky. In this business, it's rare that you have years to work on something, and obviously, we were doing other things at the same time, but we really took the time to dive into this. But at the end of the day, you kind of have to throw that stuff away on some of it. It ends up in your system. So you're not discarding it all, but you really have to do the play itself. And so that helped us. When we got to day one of rehearsal with Jamie, we had this nice bedrock of stuff that just was underneath everything else when we just went off and started playing Vladimir and Estragon.

Keanu Reeves (30:30)

And I think part of that, too, is the grounded approach that. That you and I took from the very beginning of trying to ground the play, ground the characters in a way.

Alex Winter (30:41)

Yeah, yeah. To make them feel like two actual human beings and not like, absurdist archetypes, which can happen sometimes in the production of this play.

Keanu Reeves (30:50)

Nothing to be done.

Christiane Amanpour (30:53)

We have a nice big shot of the theater. In fact, we're looking at it right now. And behind you is that tunnel, which. Which was clear in the clip that we. That we played. Cause you were in that tunnel. I want to know what that represents. But I love this comment from one of the critics. It was as if you were circling the drain of life, waiting for a fatal flush that's waiting for Godot and Vladimir and Estragon. So I just found that really visual. But tell me about.

Alex Winter (31:22)

Because they didn't like the play.

Christiane Amanpour (31:24)

No, they said a lot of other good things. I just thought it was very descriptive. But what about that tunnel?

Keanu Reeves (31:30)

It is.

Christiane Amanpour (31:33)

I mean, it's kind of unusual.

Keanu Reeves (31:36)

I guess there's the practical side of performing in it, but I think also just the symbolic prompt, this symbolic invitation of trying to, you know, you were speaking about the creative pause, you know, the. You know, and sharing that idea and the quote of that. But the pause of, like, contemplating, what is it? How does it. What does it mean to you? How does it affect. What does it make you think of one. Think of, you know.

Alex Winter (32:02)

Yeah, yeah. It creates ambiguity, but for an actor, it actually creates specific parameters that are quite constrained. And those are useful because these are two characters who are trapped in time. They're trapped with each other. They're trapped with their thoughts, and the audience is trapped. And it creates a kind of a literal trap and a foci.

Jamie Lloyd (32:22)

Right.

Keanu Reeves (32:22)

It made us be very specific in a way.

Alex Winter (32:26)

And it's also a stage which Jamie is leaning into. It also looks somewhat like a vaudeville clamshell. And there we are with their bowler hats, and we play air guitar. And we're two characters who have done physical comedy together, just as the characters in the play have. And there's kind of a vaudeville proscenium aspect to it as well. So it's a very clever design. I'm very taken by what they came up with.

Christiane Amanpour (32:49)

So you just mentioned air guitar. That's a. I assume a deliberate reference back to. Back to Bill and Ted. I don't know. How did that come up? Does the audience recognize it?

Alex Winter (33:04)

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They recognize it.

Christiane Amanpour (33:06)

And do they love it.

Keanu Reeves (33:08)

But some people.

Christiane Amanpour (33:09)

I might not have done. I might not have done. I've seen.

Keanu Reeves (33:11)

Well, it's a wonderful gesture.

Alex Winter (33:13)

You might not.

Christiane Amanpour (33:15)

I'm going to play a little clip.

Keanu Reeves (33:16)

You have to watch that on a rainy Sunday.

Christiane Amanpour (33:18)

Exactly. Well, now I'm going to play a little clip of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure from the original trailer. How's it going?

Alex Winter (33:28)

Royal ugly dudes. Put them in the Iron Maiden.

Christiane Amanpour (33:33)

Excellent.

Jamie Lloyd (33:34)

Execute them.

Christiane Amanpour (33:36)

Bogus.

Alex Winter (33:38)

How's it going?

Christiane Amanpour (33:39)

D. I mean, hugely popular. Not an obvious leap. Not an obvious connection from. From there to. To. To where you are right now. Um. How does that.

Alex Winter (33:53)

You say Ted Hare.

Christiane Amanpour (33:54)

You do you still. Okay, you still. So it's. It is an obvious connection. But listen, I want to ask you something, because you've twice said, Alex, that this is about refugees. You are refugees. And as you know, certainly in your country and certainly in, you know, in the. In the west right now, refugees are demonized. They're, you know, deported. They're shut out. And I was really interested to know that Samuel Beckett wrote this play originally in France. He himself fought in the resistance with his French wife. He was incredibly lucky to escape with his life from the Nazis. I mean, it's a really profound origin story. It's. It's really incredible to read the backstory of it. And I just wondered how that resonates with you today, performing this in New York right now.

Alex Winter (34:45)

You know, Keanu and I have talked about this quite a bit, and we've talked to a lot of people who have seen the play or produced the play at times of great strife or civic unrest or war. And we're very happy that this play doesn't specifically kind of book bracket the times that we're in, which we feel would diminish the scope of the play. But of course, it speaks to autocracy and fascism and state violence and surveillance. I mean, this stuff is in the text, so you can't not feel it. And I think whenever the play is put on, especially when the times are fraught, which, let's face it, most times are fraught for someone, it's going to be felt quite deeply in that way. And so, of course, we feel that.

Keanu Reeves (35:33)

Of course, we do lost our rights.

Alex Winter (35:36)

We got rid of them. It's right there in the text.

Christiane Amanpour (35:41)

I was in Sarajevo in 93 when Susan Sontag put on Waiting for Godot in Sarajevo under siege by the Bosnian Serb forces. And she said then it was her way of pitching in or doing something tangible. Do you feel at all, at all like that in doing this now, Keanu? I don't. I don't know. Is there something. It's such a famous play, and it has so much meaning, even though it's kind of meaningless.

Keanu Reeves (36:11)

You know, myself and Alex and Michael, Patrick Thornton and Brandon Dearden, the four of us, Vladimir Estragon, Lucky Pozzo, we huddle up before each performance. And often part of that huddling up is speaking about the audience and the reactions that each of us are getting individually from people, friends, family, from strangers about their experience of watching the play. And, you know, it's. I was crying, I was laughing. I don't know what's going on.

Alex Winter (36:50)

I've seen the play four times, and I get something different from it every time I see it.

Keanu Reeves (36:55)

And so this kind of feedback is worthwhile. It's why. And we speak about why are we here, what are we doing? And the relationship between the play, us performing it, and the audience. And there seems to be a wonderful exchange.

Donald Trump (37:13)

Yeah.

Alex Winter (37:14)

And I don't think so much, and I know this isn't really what you're saying, but I don't think so much of acting as activism. I think what Sontag was doing with that play was specific at a specific in a specific milieu. But I think for us, I wouldn't say what we're doing is activism. I mean, some of us are doing activism right now, and it's not this. But there is something about theater that is undeniably powerful in the interchange between humans and what that does.

Keanu Reeves (37:42)

Life, activism.

Alex Winter (37:43)

It is, and it does activate people, and it activates us, too, though we are prone to that as well as the audience. We're not immune to that, and we're not. It's not dogmatic. We are not presenting that to them. We are part of that exchange. And that is what I love about theatre so much.

Christiane Amanpour (37:58)

Well, wish we could talk more. Congratulations to both of you. Keanu Reeves, Alex Winter, thank you so much for joining us. And we will be right back after this short break. Now, since coming into office, the Trump administration has been waging a war on dei, calling into question the hard work of many who shaped the United States. Take one, American Cemetery, World War II cemetery in the Netherlands, where a display once commemorated the black soldiers tasked with burying thousands of American troops. But in March, that display was taken down by a federal commission on grounds of quote, interpretive content. Now, in the face of acts like these, Congressman Jim Clyburn has written a new book profiling the pioneering black politicians of South Carolina, to whom he attributes his own career success. Clyburn was the first African American to represent South Carolina since 1897, and his book, The First Eight, focuses on the trailblazing black lawmakers from his own state. He's speaking to Hari Srinivasan about the parallels between the battle for democracy in the past and present.

Jim Clyburn (39:16)

Christian thanks. Representative JIM clyburn, thanks so much for joining us. This is not a traditional political memoir. You chose to turn to history, to the eight black congressmen who were elected to represent South Carolina before you. And then you also weaved in some of your personal reflections. Why? Why take this route?

Jamie Lloyd (39:35)

Well, I thought about these eight people for a long, long time. My father, when I was a youngster, made me learn everything about Robert Smalls. I knew that Robert Smalls was born enslaved, that he had escaped slavery and had become a member of the state legislature and of Congress. And I didn't know a whole lot about the others, but my dad insisted that every day after we finished doing homework, we had to share with him a current event. So I got involved in an interest in politics at a very early age. And so right after I wrote my regular memoir, I received visitors in my office one day, and one of them asked me about these eight pictures up on my wall. When I explained who they were, one of them said to me, I thought you were the first. And I kind of playfully said, no, before I was first, there were eight. And I decided that day that maybe I would make my next book about these eight people. And I started really working on it leisurely. And then the 2020 election happened, and I started seeing what was going on up in Michigan, Pennsylvania, down in Georgia, trying to develop these alternative electors for the presidential election. Election. And I recognize from these people's lives what was going on. We were trying to get the next president certified, and the former president or the president who had just lost was then trying to get that certification nullified. Exactly what led to the demise of the careers of these eight people. And so I changed the direction, started the book over and decided to focus on tying their experiences to what we're experiencing now and quite frankly, the parallels of their era.

Jim Clyburn (42:10)

I want to talk about the parallels, but I also want to introduce our audience to a couple of these characters that you write about. Let's start with Robert Small, who you discussed briefly, you say, by my estimation, Robert Small is the only bona fide Civil War hero of the eight and one of only two blacks to serve as a delegate to the 1868 and 1895 Constitutional Conventions, which granted, then revoked black political and civil rights in the state. Live the most consequential life of any South Carolinian in your memory. I mean, that is already consequential in itself, what you just described. But how did he get to that position? How did he escape?

Jamie Lloyd (42:47)

Well, it's the most remarkable event, I think, in the entire Civil War. Robert Small was born enslaved. Mother got very concerned about him and his safety living in slavery. So she talked her owner, John McGee, in letting Robert Smalls go to Charleston to work. And all the income, of course, would go to the owner. And one day, while working on the waterfront, he had achieved some degree of some elevation among his peers. He was prancing around the ship one day and playfully threw on the captain's hat. And one of his brothers said to him, you look remarkably like the captain under that hat. And that gave her an idea. And Robert Smalls started planning an escape using the people he worked with on the ship and his family. And they successfully absconded the prize ship of the Confederate army, which was the Planter, and they sailed that planter into freedom. He then started serving in the Navy and became the first captain of a naval ship, the first African American captain in the Navy. So I tell young people all the time, as my dad used to tell me, there's nothing new under the sun. So when we start talking about all these firsts today, Robert Smalls to me, was at first, and maybe the only real hero of the Civil War. The first black captain in that war served 10 years in the South Carolina legislature, and after that, served 10 years in the United States Congress. All of that wrapped up in one person. Now, the escape in May. In August of that year, Robert Small was in Washington, D.C. to try to convince Lincoln, President Lincoln, to allow blacks to serve in that war because they were forbidden. He convinced Lincoln, and Lincoln authorized him to go back to South Carolina, recruit 5,000 black soldiers, which later became 40,000. And Abraham Lincoln himself said, but for those 40,000 soldiers and others after them, that war would have been lost by the Union.

Jim Clyburn (45:54)

You write in the book, faith is a through line in American history, particularly in the black community. Who was Richard King? Why does he stand out? Why does he resonate so personally for you?

Jamie Lloyd (46:04)

Richard Cairn was a native of West Virginia. His family moved to Ohio, and he felt a call to the ministry and was Educated at Wilberforce University, the first private hbcu. But he became disenchanted with the Methodist Church that he was a pastor in. So he left that Methodist church, became an ame. And then he was sent to here, to New York. And he became the pastor of Bridge Street AME Church over in Brooklyn, New York. But he tried to volunteer for the Union army. And he and several others were turned down because they were not allowing blacks to serve. And very explicitly said to blacks that this was a white man's war. And we have stipulated in the book this having been said, but he never gave up on it. And when the war was over, he was sent to Charleston by the AME movement to rebuild Emmanuel AME Church, which had been destroyed over the attempts by African americans to escape. 1822, the church was burned down because of Denmark visa. 30 some odd people were hanged. And of course, he was so successful at rebuilding that church, they couldn't hold all the people. So he started a second church, Morris Brown AME Church, which I became a member of. And he was the first pastor of. But he did something that I warned people about today. He used his relationship with the church. He bought a newspaper that he published. And between the church and that newspaper, he built a political dynasty in South Carolina and became a very astute member of Congress and was a founder of HBCU down in Texas and became the 14th bishop of the AME Church.

Jim Clyburn (48:52)

Given the election results just recently, do you think that the Democrats made a mistake in striking a deal? Or at least the number of Democrats who crossed over to try to end the government shutdown made a mistake?

Jamie Lloyd (49:08)

You know. No, I don't. I'm not going to vote for this bill simply because it does not go where I think it should go. But I don't think it was a mistake. I think that what we have to do is balance interest here. We got the SNAP benefits. The problem with snap, we got that address. We got the problems with the Women, Infants and Children addressed. There are significant things that did get addressed in this deal, but everybody's focusing on the one thing we didn't get. You know, Lyndon Johnson, I should never forget when we were passing civil rights laws back in 1960, and when we passed the Civil Rights act of 1964, in order to get the act passed, they took voting out of it and they took housing out of it. And then it passed dealing only with employment. A lot of people got angry about that. And Lyndon Johnson famously said, half loaf is better than no loaf. So let's Apply that to this. We may have gotten a half loaf, but that's better than no loaf.

Jim Clyburn (50:33)

Congressman, finally you close out your book with the state motto of South Carolina. While I breathe, I hope and I wonder, what is it that gives you this eternal optimism considering that you've literally been on the front lines of so many times where people would give up? What spurs that sense of purpose and kind of maybe mission in the morning when you say we can still make something better because there's a lot of people who are kind of looking for that hope?

Jamie Lloyd (51:03)

Well, you know, I remember questioning my dad about just what you're talking about. I had a real problem. My father was a fundamentalist minister. I questioned a lot about what he was preaching and what I was living. I never shall forget. One day he said to me, son, the darkest point of the night is that moment just before dawn. And that has so much meaning to me. And it still has. I know how dark it may seem, but we could very well be in that moment just before dawn. So you don't give up on the process. You keep pressing forward. And so I say to young people all the time, Robert Smalls did not give up. When Robert Smalls got the Congress, Robert Smalls was indicted on trumped up charges and was put in jail and was offered relief if he would just get out of politics. He refused. He refused. And so I said to young people, no matter how dark it is today, no matter how difficult the task may be, you can't give up on this process, especially if you've got children and you've got grandchildren. So you're going to quit, then what's going to be their future? So if they don't have a future, it must not be because you didn't do your darnedness to make sure that they have.

Jim Clyburn (52:59)

Representative Jim Clyburn from South Carolina, also the author of the First Aid. Thanks so much for your time.

Jamie Lloyd (53:05)

Thank you very much for having me.

Christiane Amanpour (53:08)

Powerful stuff. And that's it for now. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.

Alex Winter (53:15)

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