What Was Accomplished at NATO Summit?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour – "What Was Accomplished at NATO Summit?"

Host: Christiane Amanpour (CNN International)
Date: July 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This wide-ranging episode examines the outcomes of the 2026 NATO summit against a backdrop of rising global tensions—particularly between the United States and Iran—as well as persistent anxieties about the role of the US in the alliance under President Trump. The episode features:

• In-depth analysis of the NATO summit’s outcomes in conversation with former US NATO Ambassador Julianne Smith
• An exploration of the 2018 Skripal poisoning with former UK Prime Minister Theresa May, delving into Russian aggression, alliance unity, and the evolving nature of Western politics
• A compelling interview and performance from renowned artist Angélique Kidjo, reflecting on music as a force for resilience and social justice

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I. NATO Summit 2026: Unity or Deepening Division?

[00:04–13:01]

Main Theme

An evaluation of whether the 2026 NATO summit achieved real alliance unity, or merely papered over deepening rifts, especially amid renewed hostilities with Iran and shifting European political calculations about America's reliability.

Key Discussion Points

• US-Iran Tension Overshadows NATO

  • Escalating conflict in the Strait of Hormuz creates instability and anxiety among Gulf allies and NATO members.
    • Julianne Smith: “This was the dark shadow that was cast over the NATO summit… Allies really were watching closely as the cease fire over Iran started to unravel.” [03:27]

• President Trump’s Mercurial Leadership

  • The summit's mood dramatically shifted: Day one began with Trump berating allies, especially Spain, over Iran and defense spending, while by day two, he claimed “unity and love.”
    • Julianne Smith: “Day one was very scratchy… The President arrived expressing tremendous anger, frustration with specific allies over the Iran war… By day two, the president was in a different mood… upbeat. He felt good about the numbers…” [05:58]
    • Amanpour: “Trump switches from berating to praising allies. And the NATO summit ends with a show of unity. Will it last?” [00:15]

• NATO Unity or Managing Trump?

  • Analysis suggests that recent summits have increasingly revolved around managing President Trump rather than advancing collective goals.
    • Julianne Smith: “NATO summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States. And so it becomes a balancing act… more about one person than about the collective strength of the alliance…” [08:02]
    • Wall Street Journal quote cited by Amanpour: “For a year, America’s closest allies had tried to placate Trump with a mix of flattery and concessions… Now French soldiers were in Greenland… ready to attack American troops if they invaded.” [10:24]

• Europe’s New Mindset: Autonomization and Security

  • European leaders’ patience with US unpredictability is wearing thin; they’re increasing defense spending and signaling greater resolve to act in their own security interest.
    • Julianne Smith: “Europe will spend upwards of a trillion euros on their own defense over the next decade… It is important that they do it for their own security, not just because the United States and President Trump bullying them into it.” [09:31]

• Resonance of the Greenland Episode

  • Europe has not forgotten Trump’s threats regarding Greenland, which have frayed trust within the alliance.
    • Julianne Smith: “That has shaken this alliance to its core. It has undermined trust… They are now turning the page on 80 years of history… The trust that once sat at the foundation… now has been lost.” [11:24]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Allies really were watching closely as the cease fire over Iran started to unravel… There’s tremendous uncertainty about whether or not stability is really coming to the Strait of Hormuz.”
  — Julianne Smith [03:27]
• “Day one was very scratchy… the President arrived expressing tremendous anger… By day two the president was in a different mood… upbeat… left claiming that NATO is more united than ever. But we’ve seen this movie before.”
  — Julianne Smith [05:58]
• “NATO summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States… I worry that if we continue to get into this cycle… NATO is distracted…”
  — Julianne Smith [08:02]
• “They have not forgotten that… the most powerful member of the NATO alliance once threatened to take the territory of another NATO ally. That has shaken this alliance to its core.”
  — Julianne Smith [11:24]

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II. The Salisbury Poisonings, Russian Aggression, and UK Politics

[16:29–35:49]

Main Theme

A retrospective and personal account from former UK Prime Minister Theresa May on the 2018 Salisbury poisoning, examining how the UK and its allies responded to the brazen Russian attack, as well as broader reflections on contemporary British and Western politics.

Key Discussion Points

• Breaking News to National Crisis

  • May describes first hearing of two people found ill on a Salisbury park bench and the gradual realization that it was a Russian attack using Novichok nerve agent.
    • Theresa May: “When I first heard about [it]… there was a hope that actually this was something… explicable, a drug issue… rather than… the chemical weapon, the nerve agent.” [16:46]

• Evidence, Attribution, and Response

  • Focus on the importance of confirming Russian responsibility before acting. Once established, an unprecedented expulsion of Russian intelligence officers followed.
    • Theresa May: “I’m a great believer that you have to make sure you have the evidence before you start to make public statements… we were able to bring about the largest ever expulsion of Russian intelligence officers… over 25 countries… over 150 were expelled around the world.” [20:48]

• Alliance Unity vs. Russian Recklessness

  • The event illustrated both Western resolve and the ongoing threat posed by Russia’s disregard for international norms.
    • Theresa May: “The audacity of that, the recklessness… and that gave a very clear signal to Russia… We know where you are and we’re watching.” [20:48]

• Lessons for NATO and Western Security

  • Ongoing need for vigilance, tangible defense commitments, and maintaining alliance resolve against threats like Russia.
    • Theresa May: “What Putin achieved by his… invasion of Ukraine… was an increase in [defense spending]—the critical thing was Germany… raising their defense spending which they had not done previously.” [25:02]

• British Domestic Politics and Rise of Populism

  • May on the impact of low economic growth, prospects for centrist and “disruptor” parties, and the risks of repeated leadership changes with no policy vision.
    • Theresa May: “Voters are dissatisfied because they can’t see a better future… when people are dissatisfied… they turn to the disruptive parties on the edges.” [29:30]
    • Theresa May on Nigel Farage: “He is a man of the establishment… There is a sense that… people [are] willing to vote tactically to ensure that reform do not get elected.” [31:12, 31:37]

• Fragility of Trust and Governance

  • May warns of growing distrust in political institutions and the dangers of a politics focused on personality over policy.
    • Theresa May: “There is a real issue that’s not a game… Are you concerned that we’re in a moment of total distrust… What is the antidote?” [32:42, 33:14]

• Global Democratic Resilience

  • Final thoughts on defending democracy and the need to adapt and reinforce multilateral institutions.
    • Theresa May: “Democracy can survive, certainly, but those of us who believe in it have to stand up and share those values… We need to show that new generation why their freedoms matter…” [34:43]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “There was enough poison in that bottle to kill 10,000 people. There is no playbook for this. Russia had been responsible for this.”
  — Theresa May [16:10]
• “Over 25 countries came together… over 150 [intelligence officers] were expelled around the world. And that gave a very clear signal to Russia…”
  — Theresa May [20:48]
• “Voters are dissatisfied because they can’t see a better future for their children… then they turn to the disruptive parties on the edges.”
  — Theresa May [29:30]
• “Democracy can survive, certainly, but those of us who believe in it have to stand up and share those values and explain why we believe democracy is so important.”
  — Theresa May [34:43]

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III. Music, Freedom, and Resilience: Angelique Kidjo

[37:23–52:42]

Main Theme

An uplifting interview and performance with Beninese singer-songwriter Angelique Kidjo, discussing her new album "Hope," the power of music to bridge divides, and lessons about resilience, social justice, and cross-cultural understanding.

Key Discussion Points

• Music as Bridge and Narrative for Hope

  • Kidjo affirms her commitment to music as a means to emphasize shared humanity and respond to anger and despair with creativity.
    • Angelique Kidjo: “Music is about building bridges, about bringing people together to our common shared humanity.” [38:12]

• Growing Up under Dictatorship, the Power of Culture

  • Describes her childhood in Benin where music was banned by the communist regime, and the ways in which music becomes an act of resistance and self-liberation.
    • Angelique Kidjo: “If you see any dictatorship that comes in place, culture is the first thing that they crush, because culture gives people strength to stand up for their right.” [40:59]

• Reflections on Political Division and Young People

  • Warns against meeting anger with anger, urges constructive dialogue and self-belief, especially for youth and women in the face of adversity.
    • Angelique Kidjo: “If you don’t think about building a better society, you are the great loser because you are the young… you’re going to be the one that paid the cost of the chaos you want to create.” [43:00]
    • “To every young girl… you offer a chance, an opportunity, take it. Learn while you’re doing it. Don’t think back twice.” [46:32]

• The African Roots of Global Music and Lessons from Slavery

  • Kidjo criticizes the “world music” label and emphasizes the African origin of much popular music, while linking this history with contemporary inequalities.
    • Angelique Kidjo: “Every music that we do today comes from Africa. We like it or not. That’s just the simple fact and truth of it.” [48:38]
    • “Africans that came here, African Americans didn’t migrate here like the Irish… They have created the wealth of this country, and they have created the wealth of Europe.” [48:38]

• Resilience and Optimism

  • Despite challenges, Kidjo’s outlook is ultimately hopeful, rooted in the resilience of ordinary people worldwide.
    • Angelique Kidjo: “If we are not each other’s keepers, we lose everything… Mother Nature don’t know that… when death come knocking, you can’t tell death: Hey, wait a minute.” [51:45]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Performance of “Once in a Lifetime” (Talking Heads) [39:23]
• “If you don’t believe in yourself… I say no. To every young girl and every woman out there, you offer a chance, an opportunity, take it. Learn while you’re doing it. Don’t think back twice.”
  — Angelique Kidjo [46:32]
• “If we are not each other's keepers, we lose everything.”
  — Angelique Kidjo [51:45]

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Key Takeaways & Themes

• NATO’s Unity Remains Fragile: The alliance exuded unity at the 2026 summit, but much of it appears performative and focused on managing the unpredictabilities of the US under Trump, whose confrontational stances continue to unsettle European allies.
• Europe Stepping Up, Trust Strained: European nations are significantly increasing their defense capacities, motivated more by their own security needs than US pressure, but the broken trust—particularly after episodes like the Greenland incident—poses long-term challenges.
• Lessons from Salisbury: Theresa May’s account underscores the importance of methodical decision-making in national security crises and the ongoing threat posed by a brazen Russia to the international order.
• Populism, Politics, and Economic Growth: Political volatility persists in Britain and Europe, driven by economic stagnation and a sense of lost hope among voters, making space for disruptor parties and tactical voting.
• The Enduring Power of Art: Angelique Kidjo offers a contrasting and uplifting narrative—one in which music fosters resilience, social change, and optimism in spite of injustice and suffering.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:04–13:01]: NATO Summit, Trump’s role, Iran conflict (with Julianne Smith)
• [16:29–35:49]: Salisbury Poisonings, Russian aggression, British politics (with Theresa May)
• [37:23–52:42]: Angelique Kidjo on music, hope, and social justice

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Notable Quotes

• "NATO summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States." — Julianne Smith [08:02]
• “That has shaken this alliance to its core… The trust that once sat at the foundation… now has been lost.” — Julianne Smith [11:24]
• “There was enough poison in that bottle to kill 10,000 people. There is no playbook for this. Russia had been responsible for this.” — Theresa May [16:10]
• “Music is about building bridges, about bringing people together to our common shared humanity.” — Angelique Kidjo [38:12]
• “If we are not each other's keepers, we lose everything.” — Angelique Kidjo [51:45]

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Overall Tone & Language

Amanpour brings incisive, global analysis and direct questioning. Smith is analytical and honest about alliance fractures, May is measured and self-reflective, with a centrist conservative perspective warning of democratic fragility, while Kidjo is exuberant, passionate, and inspirational—celebrating resilience and culture. The tone moves from sobering geopolitical realities to uplifting artistic optimism.

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This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode’s major themes and messages, giving both the specifics of the NATO summit’s outcomes and broader reflections on geopolitics, democracy, and cultural resilience.

Transcript

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up.

[Julianne Smith]

Summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Trump switches from berating to praising allies. And the NATO summit ends with a show of unity. Will it last? I speak to America's former NATO ambassador Julianne Smith. Then we were told that an EV

[Theresa May]

agent had been used.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How did it get into the country

[Anjali Kijo]

and where was it?

[Theresa May]

Now Salisbury has taken a serious turn for the worst. Now it's murder.

[Christiane Amanpour]

A Russian attack on British soil. A new CNN documentary examines the 2018 poisoning of Sergei Skripal. I speak with former UK Prime Minister Theresa May about this real life spy thriller and whether Brexiteer Nigel Farage could actually reach number 10 +. Hope on tour. The renowned singer Anjali Kijo from Benin in Africa performs her new album on stage in Europe. We look back at our conversations with her about passion for music, family and social justice. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour. In London this week, NATO leaders gathered in Turkey as the alliance faces pressure on multiple fronts. Instead of uniting the alliance, President Trump once again berated European allies over defense spending, blasted Spain and threatened to cut off trade with Madrid. Trump renewed his call to control Greenland and criticized several NATO members for refusing to join the United States. Israel war against Iran. But by the end of it, Trump told a farewell press conference, the NATO summit was filled with unity and love. So the first NATO summit to be held in Asia did deliver some results. NATO leaders reaffirmed their commitment to collective defense, pledged to boost military spending and defense production, and also reiterated their support for Ukraine. Of course, President Trump even enveloped President Zelensky in a warmer embrace, saying that he would allow Ukraine to manufacture Patriot air defense systems. So has NATO emerged more united or have its underlying divisions simply been pushed to another day? Julianne Smith served as America's ambassador to NATO and she's joining me now from Washington. Ambassador Smith, welcome to the program.

[Julianne Smith]

Thank you. Good to be back.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Good to have you with us. I just want to ask you, of course, the big story, really the hot war seems to have been rekindled between the United States and Iran. What do you make of that fact? And with both sides appearing to try to dominate from a position of strength, negotiate, if you like, over the Strait of Hormuz publicly with this missile exchange. Where do you think that can lead?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, this was the dark shadow that was cast over the NATO summit behind the scenes while they were talking about NATO defense spending in Ukraine, allies really were watching closely as the cease fire over Iran started to unravel. And I think there's been doubt across the Atlantic on whether or not the ceasefire would hold. Now, there are skeptics even here in Washington that we are spiraling to yet another chapter. There really are questions here about who's controlling the situation. Iran seems intent on continuing to fire against ships in the Strait. The US Then responds to those attacks with more strikes of our own. And the question is, where does all of this take us? I think for those countries in the Gulf, they are on edge. They don't want to see the fighting return. They've been targeted in the last 48 hours. And so there's tremendous uncertainty about whether or not stability is really coming to the Strait of Hormuz.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And where do you think it could actually end up? Or is it just going to be a constant sort of low level war?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, this is the problem. We could be entering a phase where this is just the status quo. There's tremendous uncertainty, tremendous instability in the Strait. Companies do not feel secure shipping their goods, shipping oil through the Strait, and our economies will react to that uncertainty. We were just getting to the point where the markets were feeling stable. We were seeing positive reactions around the globe. But now I think the question is, are we just entering a period where this is going to be part of our daily lives, that we will not be able anytime soon to reach some sort of lasting ceasefire in the region that will allow those ships finally to safely transit the Strait of Hormuz?

[Christiane Amanpour]

And then, of course, all the other issues, like the nuclear issue and the like, which is also at stake. So do you think this issue or how do you think it affects the alliance? You saw, I'm sure, President Trump's, you know, handling of the NATO summit, his farewell press conference, do you agree with him that it ended with unity and as he said, much loved. In other words, do you think at least the alliance is together?

[Julianne Smith]

Well, it was a very short summit. It was a social dinner on the first evening and one session the next morning. But what transpired between day one and day two was notably different. Day one was very scratchy. The President arrived expressing tremendous anger, frustration with specific allies over the Iran war. He's been frustrated with Spain that the US Was not able to use Spanish air space to operationalize the intervention, the war that was begun with Israel. And then there were complaints about the fact that all of NATO had, quote, let the United States down, that NATO hadn't shown up for the United States. So going into the summit, I think the allies felt uncertain about what the outcome would be, whether or not the US Would be announcing any changes to its force posture in Europe. But we got to day two. The president was in a different mood. Mood. He was upbeat. He felt good about the numbers that the secretary General had given him about increases in defense spending and left claiming that NATO is more united than ever. But we've seen this movie before. This is what happened last year in the Hague. And the question is, what comes next? Should we all breathe a sigh of relief that we were able to get through, or is this just another up and down chapter where he likes Europe on one day and dislikes them another?

[Christiane Amanpour]

So that brings me to this really interesting, deeply reported Wall Street Journal article about over the past six months, how Europe has tried to figure out how, in fact to deal with this situation. Now, according to this, one leader from southern Europe is reported to have told the group, you are not dealing with an administration that has processes. You're dealing with a single volatile individual. Obviously, they mean President Trump, because this is all about how to deal with President Trump and keep NATO on track. Do you agree with that assessment?

[Julianne Smith]

I do agree with the assessment. NATO summits are normally, for decades, they've been about allies coming together to talk about shared threats and challenges. They're there to announce new policies, new initiatives to deal with Russia, threats in the Middle east, threats in the Arctic, challenges elsewhere. What's changed is NATO summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States. And so it becomes a balancing act that's more about one person than about the collective strength of the alliance as a whole. So, of course, I'm personally relieved to see that we came out of the other side of the summit with a united message and some sense of resolve and support for Ukraine. That's a good thing. But I worry that if we continue to get into this cycle where it's just about managing the United States, that NATO is distracted and unable to focus collectively as allies on those shared challenges and threats.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So interestingly, the reporting after this summit suggested, and actually they quoted certain European leaders there as saying, yes, you know, perhaps before it was about, you know, trying to figure out Trump, et cetera. But now they say after this whole year and a half of the second administration, this is no longer, we've had enough of the bullying. We are doing this because of our own security.

[Julianne Smith]

Well, allies are stepping up. Let's not deny that. And we should applaud all of those efforts. I mean, by the best calculations Europe will spend upwards of a trillion euros on their own defense over the next decade. We have to applaud all of those efforts and celebrate them. This is something that the United States has been asking for for a very long time. And it is important that they do it for their own security, not just because the United States and President Trump bullying them into it. They really need to do it to provide for their own security. So this is a good thing. I question whether or not those efforts in Europe are well coordinated and whether or not they're leading to some potential fragmentation across the continent. But all in all, this is a positive development for the NATO alliance, full stop.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let me read you another paragraph that really leapt out at me from the Wall Street Journal report. And this is now talking about the last six months of allies trying to talk to each other. Quote. For a year, America's closest allies had tried to placate Trump with a mix of flattery and concessions on mutual defense and trade issues, hoping to buy time. Now French soldiers were in Greenland alongside Danish special forces equipped for a shooting war with America. The French president repeated something he's been pressing for years, that Europe's over reliance on America was a security risk. There is no going back, he said. Obviously, there's a debate as to whether to go with the secretary general. Reuters let's keep him on side. Let's keep giving Trump wins and the potential Macron version of let's do our own thing and let's, you know, mitigate for this what he called a security risk. But imagine the picture of Danish and French soldiers in Greenland ready to attack American troops if they invaded.

[Julianne Smith]

No one should underestimate the impact of the Greenland chapter on the state of the transatlantic relationship. We may have forgotten here in the United States what President Trump said late last year or early this year on getting or taking Greenland. We may consider it to be in the rearview mirror, although he did mention Greenland when he got to Turkey for the NATO summit. But in Europe, they have not forgotten Greenland. They have not forgotten that the strongest and most powerful member of the NATO alliance once threatened to take the territory of another NATO ally. That has shaken this alliance to its core. It has undermined trust with our allies and led many of them to conclude that there is no going back. They are now turning the page on 80 years of history, of working hand in glove with the United States. This does not mean that the transatlantic relationship is over. I'm not here to issue rights last rites on that relationship. But what it does mean is that the trust that once sat at the foundation of this relationship now has been lost. And that will have consequences for US Industry. It will have consequences for the United States government. And it will have consequences for this incredible global network of partners and allies that the United States has held onto for decades.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Ambassador Julianne Smith, thank you so much for being with us.

[Julianne Smith]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Now coming up with Britain preparing for yet another new prime minister, I went to meet one of the former prime ministers to talk about the rise of the far right and the future of Britain. My conversation with Theresa May after this break. Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Theresa May]

Are you looking for a beach read this summer?

[Christiane Amanpour]

May I suggest your big wireless bill?

[Theresa May]

It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan, $15 a month, even unlimited.

[Anjali Kijo]

That's it.

[Theresa May]

Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for

[Julianne Smith]

six months or $180 or 12 month

[Theresa May]

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[Anjali Kijo]

Me slow when network is busy.

[Theresa May]

See terms.

[Anjali Kijo]

I'm Audi Cornish.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm Ari Shapiro.

[Theresa May]

And it's engagement party.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's engagement party and we get to

[Theresa May]

talk about what we're obsessed with, what we're engaged with, what we need to

[Christiane Amanpour]

process with a friend, and we' with

[Theresa May]

what's old is new again. What's old is one of the greatest

[Christiane Amanpour]

tech failures of the 21st century.

[Anjali Kijo]

Google Glass.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I thought you were gonna say froyo.

[Theresa May]

Well, also that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Also that it's like it wanted to be ice cream and didn't make it there. Okay, the question is, is Meta Glasses

[Theresa May]

gonna be the next great tech failure of the 21st century after Mark Zuckerberg has invested, what, $70 billion into making it a thing? Is it something we're all gonna be wearing or is it just a creepy way for perverts to be even more lecherous?

[Anjali Kijo]

Glasses, Ari, what is your take?

[Theresa May]

I am not sure. Follow engagement party wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Britain is preparing for its seventh prime minister in just 10 years. Think about it. With the Labour Party's former mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, expected to take over from Keir Starmer in the coming weeks, it's just the latest chapter in a tumultuous decade since Brexit, upending trade, defense and immigration. My next guest, Theresa May, was catapulted into Downing street by Brexit and tried negotiating a better deal with the European Union. She failed and it proved so tricky that it fact cost her her premiership. A defining moment was also the Salisbury poisonings. That was a failed assassination attempt on the former Russian military officer and double agent in 2018, exposing the shadow conflict between Russia and the west long before the full scale invasion of Ukraine. It's documented in a new CNN film, the Salisbury poisonings. A spy next door. Here's a clip from the trailer.

[Theresa May]

Immediately, this didn't look right. They have very unusual symptoms. Somebody said, you're not going to believe

[Christiane Amanpour]

what I've just found out.

[Theresa May]

Something has poisoned these people. Turns out that he was a Russian spy.

[Christiane Amanpour]

We were told that an EV agent had been used. How did it get into the country

[Anjali Kijo]

and where was it?

[Julianne Smith]

Now Salisbury has taken a serious turn for the worst. Now it's murder.

[Theresa May]

There was enough poison in that bottle to kill 10,000 people. There is no playbook for this. Russia had been responsible for this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I got into all of this with Theresa May when we sat down in Westminster here in London. Prime Minister May, welcome to the program.

[Theresa May]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You have taken part with other people in this new documentary which is airing on CNN about the Skripal po obviously happened during your prime ministership. Take us back to that moment when you heard about it and what went through your mind.

[Theresa May]

When I first heard about was presented to me as two people who'd been found on a park bench who were obviously ill. But at that stage it wasn't entirely clear what the problem was. And there was a hope that actually this was something that would explicable a drug issue or something like that, rather than being what it turned out to be, obviously the chemical weapon, the nerve agent. So at that point in time, there's a sort of you hope for the best, but then you have to start thinking and preparing for the worst.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the worst was that I think one way or another, essentially it was an act of war by a hostile state on the United Kingdom.

[Julianne Smith]

Yes.

[Theresa May]

I mean, the fact that initially there were sort of two people on a park bench, okay, well, this may be more than just something that will naturally be explicable. And then of course you're told that say, Guy Skripal had worked for Russian intelligence. And that makes you start to think there's potentially more to this than meets the eye. And so you have to start thinking about what you need to put in place, what the order of things is. I'm a great believer that you have to make sure you have the evidence before you start to make public statements about issues like this.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I'm just going to play now something actually really obvious. It's the doctor at the hospital in Salisbury. And Salisbury was essentially sort of a tiny town, but it was a little town that not many people around the world knew about. And suddenly they were faced with this massive geopolitical crime, an act of violence. Here's what the doctor said.

[Theresa May]

It suddenly began to dawn on me that something has poisoned these people. At that moment, somebody came up to me and said, Dr. Cockroft, I've just googled Sergei Skripal, and you're not gonna believe what I've just found out. So I went and looked, and there it was. He had a Wikipedia page. Right, okay, this is beginning to smell a bit fishy. This.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Fishy could be a great British understatement. You discovered that it was Novichok. Were you surprised that it was actually a journalist, Christo Grozev, a colleague, who discovered the identity of these two who had claimed that they were tourists coming to visit the famous church spire, cathedral spire in Salzburg, but he discovered who they were?

[Theresa May]

Well, first of all, there was a lot that happened, obviously, before the names of the individuals who'd undertaken this were put forward. And so there was that whole process of making sure that we were right, that it was Novichok. Obviously, we have this very particular capability in the UK at Porton down that we're able to look into that. And then that, of course, later on, the fact that it was Novichok was confirmed by the opcw, the organization that deals with chemical weapons.

[Christiane Amanpour]

But the people.

[Theresa May]

Yes, but there are people, obviously, you've got UK intelligence, you've got UK police and journalists who make it their business to be looking at these sorts of issues. So all coming together and identifying. First of all, we had to identify that it was Russia that was behind it. And then, of course, the individuals were identifying.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And then you were so faced with a. Not really a dilemma, but a national security perspective and prerogative that you couldn't let this stand. If you knew that this was Russia and it went to the highest levels, that is Putin. There was a Security Council meeting convened. President Trump banged everybody into order, and you were given the floor. Were you satisfied with how your allies reacted to this? And what.

[Anjali Kijo]

What were you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

How did you see Sergey Lavrov react? The Russian ambassador, who was sitting quite

[Theresa May]

close to you, impassively, I think, is probably the best description. I mean, in terms of the response from allies what was critical was that we were able to bring about the largest ever expulsion of Russian intelligence officers across the world in history. Over 25 countries came together with the United Kingdom, Kingdom, NATO as well, and expelled Russian intelligence officers. Over 150 were expelled around the world. And that gave a very clear signal to Russia. First of all, we've been watching you and we knew where these people were and we are disrupting your networks. That was the first message that it gave. And secondly, it gave a longer, longer message. We know where you are and we're watching. And I think that was incredibly important. And allies from around the world, the United States, other member states from the European Union, which we were in at the time, Australia, Canada came together and said, this is not good enough. Russia has used a chemical weapon, which is unlawful to use a chemical weapon, and they've used it on the streets of a British city. The audacity of that, the recklessness of that was absolutely clear to me. And I think that came across to allies around the world and it was extraordinary to me.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I mean, I didn't remember for the time, but the analysis said that that small amount could have killed 10,000 people. It was very, very potent.

[Theresa May]

And that was. Sorry, that was one of the issues that we had to deal with at the time, was not knowing where this agent had been used initially. It was then discovered it was on the handle of the, of the door of Sergei Skripal's house. But of course the police and others had to look at all the places the Scripples had been to. Those places had to be cleared, cleaned out to make sure there was no trace of that Novichok there. And they were on a park bench. Children could have come up, children could have found that file. The potential damage is difficult to comprehend in a sense, sense, and that's why I say this was so reckless from Russia and it was so important that we were able to take our time to find the evidence and to identify that this lay at the hands of the Russian state.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So obviously they deny it. And Putin has not been humbled at all by any of this. He's been outed in every which way by this, by your investigations, by the revelation of who the two agents were who brought this and committed this crime. Subsequently doing the full scale invasion of Ukraine and continuing these very reckless, bold, I mean, thumbing his nose is an understatement. But just not taking NATO, the United States, Europe seriously at all, it seems.

[Theresa May]

Well, of course we saw, following some weeks after the attack in Salisbury, we saw Russian agents trying to take action against the Organization for the Prevention of Use of Chemical Weapons, which was an organization where a vote was taken, where overwhelmingly the vote was in favour of the UK in relation to this attack that Russia had done. So, yes, they carried on in that sense. And we saw that further invasion of Ukraine.

[Anjali Kijo]

Ukraine.

[Theresa May]

We've seen the Ukrainians fight back, Ukrainians clearly wanting to maintain their independence, their sovereignty. And the uk, United States and other allies across Europe supporting Ukraine and continuing to support Ukraine, which is absolutely essential, do you think?

[Christiane Amanpour]

Because we've seen it all. We've seen President Trump go back and forth and Maybe President Trump 2.0 is different than the President Trump union and worked alongside in his first administration when you were Prime Minister. But the support for Ukraine from the United States and the support for NATO, all things that, you know, should be a bulwark against Putin's adventurism, seems to be very touch and go, very easy come, easy go from the US perspective right now.

[Theresa May]

Well, the United States, I was the first world leader to visit President Trump in his first term. And one of the reasons for doing that was to ensure that he would support NATO. And he did, and he came out supporting NATO. But what he said at NATO was what the UK actually agreed with, which was that the countries sitting around that NATO table had to up their defence spending. And of course, what Putin achieved by his further invasion of Ukraine, which is something that he did not expect to achieve, was an increase in. Was the critical thing was Germany. Germany saying that they were going to increase their defence spending, which they had not done previously. So if you think about Putin's an opportunist, I think he saw that the west was turning its eyes towards China more. He saw the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the chaotic nature of that withdrawal, and he saw an opportunity. He thought the west was not united in defending its value. And what he got as a result was a West that came together to defend their values, was a NATO that has been strengthened by Sweden and Finland joining it. What he got was Germany increasing defence spending with NATO commitments to increase defence spending around the table.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what are you concerned? How would you advise, if you were to advise any current British Prime Minister, the Defence Minister resigned over UK defence spending. What does this next Prime Minister have to do? And, well, we've just had a NATO summit and Trump is again complaining about lack of, you know, correct spending by NATO allies. What actually does a UK Prime Minister have to do, knowing that there's so much domestic that needs to be dealt with as well?

[Theresa May]

Well, what the UK Prime Minister does have to do is to commit to the nat which has been done, commit to the sum of spending on defence and security that NATO is requiring, but needs to set out a clear plan to achieve that. Obviously, there's been a lot of toing and froing from this current Labour government about the defence investment plan. And as you say, the Secretary of State for Defence, John Healey, resigned because he didn't feel enough money was coming forward. I have to say there is a simple way in which some money can be released in terms of UK government terms, which is by the UK government getting on top of welfare reform and ensuring that we are spending less on welfare, that is. And the Conservative opposition has said they will help the government. They're willing to work with the government to do that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Since the financial crash, there's been no meaningful pay rises for people. Their salaries have been stagnant. There's a huge amount of dissatisfaction. Where is Britain right now? You've got Nigel Farage, the father of Brexit, essentially, who. Who's had to resign because of an allegation of financial misdeeds. Where do you see the political reality here right now?

[Theresa May]

I think what is underlying the causes of concern that obviously people here in the UK have about their cost of living, about hope for the future, is lack of economic growth, and that is absolutely critical that the government gets economic growth going. Unfortunately, the Labour government has taken a number of policy decisions which have been negative for economic growth rather than encouraging that growth. But getting that growth is critical. But actually it's critical in other countries as well, because what we see across the European continent is that we have seen that economic growth being in some cases stuttering in others there, but not at the sort of levels that you would hope to see. In order to provide people with that hope for the future.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What about the sort of. You can see what's happening so reform, restore here. This is far right. You've got Marine Le Pen, who says she's going to actually campaign for president because she's been allowed to campaign despite her conviction for economic financial fraud. She's the far right in France. You've got a problem in Germany with AfD. You're a conservative, but you're a centrist Conservative. What can Conservative parties and more liberal parties, but who essentially hew a centrist line do to deny the fringes? Whether it's on the far far left in France or the far far right

[Theresa May]

elsewhere, Voters are dissatisfied because they can't see a better future. They can't see a better future for their children. Every generation expects that actually their children will have a better future future, a better life than they've had. And at the moment, people can't see that. And it comes back to this question, I'm afraid, of economic growth, be it here in the uk, I think in France, in Germany, these are the issues that politicians are having to grapple with. And it's being able to give people an optimism for the future, a hope for the future, but actually delivering that on the ground. It's when people are dissatisfied, they don't think the traditional mainstream parties have delivered for them, then they turn to the disruptive parties on the edges. And so, as a Conservative, I think the Conservative Party under Kemi Badenoch's leadership is absolutely right to be focusing on some of these issues of the economy, because that is where we need to ensure that we can get the growth that will give people that hope.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And do you think the disruptor in this case, in this country. Reform.

[Julianne Smith]

Reform.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Its polls show that it's doing better than the Conservatives, better than the Labour government. Will it be. Do you think it's going to win the next election?

[Theresa May]

No, because for a number of reasons. First of all, actually, although they've been ahead in the polls, they have been falling back in the polls. I think what we see now is people see in looking at reform and looking particularly you mentioned Nigel Farrell. I think they see that maybe he's more of a normal politician than they thought he was, that he's like everybody else in their terms, because he says

[Christiane Amanpour]

it's him against the establishment, he'll fight for the little people, but he is

[Theresa May]

a man of the establishment. I mean, he's been in politics for several decades now, and if you look at his background, he's a man of the establishment. But the other thing is, I think there is a sense that you've seen from parliamentary by election of people being willing to vote tactically to ensure that reform do not get elected. So at the next election, I think we will see quite a lot of tactical voting.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What do you think the tactical is here? All the parties have refused to contest the by election that Farage is going to stand for.

[Theresa May]

Well, he's created a by election which will cost the taxpayer money. As a result of that by election, the parliamentary inquiry into his receipt of certain financial sums, not just from Christopher Harborne, but from George Cotterell as well, will have to go into abeyance. And it's a gesture, I think, from him. And I think, you know, Kenny Badenoc said it was a yes. The terms have been used. The stunt. Kenny Badenoch said he'd had a hissy fit and was doing this. And I think the. The issue is that he's able to defer that Parliamentary standard's inquiry into what he's been doing, the sums of money that he's been receiving. So it's this sort of gesture from him. And I think it's absolutely right for people to say, for other parties to say, you know what, we're not going to play your game.

[Christiane Amanpour]

There is a real issue that's not a game and certainly we can see it in the UK since Brexit, a sort of an ungovernability. It's not possible in the United Kingdom, too, about to be welcoming a seventh prime minister in 10 years, and this is since Brexit. Are you concerned that there is. We're in a moment of total distrust, total disruption, total inability to actually persuade people of, let's say, the things you've been talking about right now.

[Anjali Kijo]

How do you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

What is the antidote to this ungovernability?

[Theresa May]

Well, I don't think the UK is ungovernable, but unfortunately, members of Parliament have decided that the answer. If there is a problem, if they're not seeing enough progress in terms of issues like economic growth and people's opportunities, and members of Parliament see changing the leader, changing the Prime Minister as the answer. Of course, I would say to the Labour Party, it's not. I think Keir Starmer made a number of mistakes, a number of bad decisions, but actually, it's about those policies that are being pursued that matters, not necessarily the person who is there at the. At the head of the party and as Prime Minister. So I would say to the Labour Party, you've decided that you want. You've got rid of the Prime Minister, who actually won you a big majority. I mean, a historic majority, a historic majority. You're going for somebody else else. But what you really need to look at is your policies.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And finally, is this world to your satisfaction as a former Prime Minister? Is it in safe hands? Do you think that, you know, with all the disruption and there is a lot coming from the United States, I mean, unprecedented disruption, whether it's, you know, creating new wars in the Middle east, whether it's, you know, always disrupting NATO, whether it's trade tariffs, whatever it might be, do you think democracy and the rules of the road, the post World War II rules of the road and the international order can survive?

[Theresa May]

Well, democracy can survive, certainly, but those of us who believe in it have to stand up and share those values and explain why we believe democracy is so important. The world post the Second World War, we created these multilateral institutions which I would argue have helped to maintain peace, security, relative peace, security and stability for us. Those are breaking down and we need to think about whether we should reshape those for the future. But I would say that those of us who believe in democracy, in the importance of people having the freedom to choose who is governing them, in the importance of the rule of law and importance of a free press, all of those issues that underpin our democracy, we need to be willing to go out and argue for those and show a new generation, because I do worry about the polls that show young people who don't see democracy as the way forward. We need to show that new generation why their freedoms matter, and it's democracy that deliver those freedoms.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Prime Minister Theresa May, thank you very much for being with us.

[Theresa May]

Thank you.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And the Salisbury Poisonings, A Spy Next Door premieres this Sunday, July 12th at 8, 8pm Eastern and Pacific on CNN. We'll be right back after the break. Craig Ferguson is going coast to coast to unpack what it really means to be an American today. What could possibly go wrong? CRAIG ferguson, American on purpose. New episodes now streaming on the CNN app. Go to CNN.com watch to subscribe or log in with your TV for provider.

[Theresa May]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. This week's guest, Dr. Marshall Leonard. He once defended goals as a Major League Soccer player for the New England Revolution, but now he's defending life as an emergency medicine doctor at Stony Brook in New York. I have tried to understand, can I see when a player is in flow state just as a spectator? Can I sort of observe this in some way? You have such a unique lens on things now both. Again, as a former player but now physician, can you tell when I'm watching the World Cup?

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think that I can sort of

[Julianne Smith]

see when a player's feeling it and

[Theresa May]

is in a zone.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Let your athleticism take over because you have that ability.

[Anjali Kijo]

So calm your mind, take a breath. I just say, just do it like Nike. Just do it.

[Theresa May]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts,

[Christiane Amanpour]

Seventeen albums, five Grammys and a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Angeli Kijo is arguably the most decorated African musician in history with a career spanning four decades. She's known for her incredible voice and for fusing West African styles with funk, jazz and rb. Now Kijo is on Tour around Europe for her latest project, Hope, a 16 track album described as a much needed antidote to despair in troubled times. That's the new one. But back in 2019, the renowned performer joined me in the New York studio and I asked her what drives her

[Anjali Kijo]

to keep creating in a world where I think we all losing ground. A lot of things are happening. There's a lot of anger and at the side of that anger, you have a lot of people doing wonderful stuff. But we focus more on the anger than the positive things. And for me, music is about building bridges, about bringing people together to our common shared humanity. And that's why I'm like, I'm devouring everything that comes my way and giving it back to the public. And it has been a really roller coaster journey that I'm taking. But I like that. Keeps me young.

[Christiane Amanpour]

I think that's amazing. I mean, keeps you young. That's great. You definitely look young. We're about the same age. You outdoing me. But you're doing something that you hadn't necessarily done before. You, as I said, doing some cover albums, cover songs. One of the bands that's so well known to American and western audiences, I guess, are the Talking head. Heads erupted onto the scenes in the early 80s, I think. And you did a cover last year, including a song that you said had inspired you. You know, Once in a Lifetime. You did their album Remain in Light. Do you fancy just giving me some of your joy right now? Oh, yeah, go on.

[Anjali Kijo]

Them Letting the days go by Letting the days go by into the blue

[Julianne Smith]

again

[Anjali Kijo]

Once in a lifetime.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's great, Angelique. It really is. And when you sing, your whole face comes alight and it does definitely impact on the audience. But what was it about that song and that group? When did you first hear them and how did they inspire you?

[Anjali Kijo]

I mean, I heard the song Once in a Lifetime actually when I arrived in 1983, three months after I arrived, I was trying to tag along with friends in my musical school. And even though you speak a language and you share the same culture pretty much with people, it's always difficult to leave your home. No one lives in exile by choice and find it very fun. And some of the musical friend that I was making at that time said, let's go raid my fridge. My parents just filled up my fridge. I'm like, free food student. I'm tagging along, I'm going along.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Raiding your friend's parents fridge.

[Julianne Smith]

Yeah.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Here in the United States?

[Anjali Kijo]

No, in Paris.

[Christiane Amanpour]

In Paris.

[Anjali Kijo]

I'm like okay, let's go for it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So you came from the African nation of Benin.

[Anjali Kijo]

Benin, where we have a communist dictatorship. So for the 10, 12 years that followed their arrival, music was banned at radio. Literally, literally all music was banned. Only thing you hear is prepola revolution day in and day out in every different language.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And just so that we understand that it's ready for the revolution, the fight continues. So they banned pop music or all of them.

[Theresa May]

Why?

[Christiane Amanpour]

What was the reason?

[Anjali Kijo]

Well, it's not. It might make us think about freedom. That's what music does. If you see any dictatorship that comes in place, culture is the first thing that they crush, because culture give people strength to stand up for their right. When you decide to listen to a music in your room, it's not a summon from a government, it's your will, your free will to do that. And what that music reveals from your life is something that is beyond.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Do you know, that's really an incredible story because obviously we remember the counterculture here in the United States, the 60s, all the incredible music associated with that during the student uprisings, the protests against Vietnam, political protests. But you're saying that you had that in your bedroom in Benin? Absolutely. When you were growing up.

[Anjali Kijo]

Absolutely. All the kind of music, I mean, my father and mother, and I'm realizing as I grow older that what I've taken for granted and sometimes annoyed me because my mom and dad always used to tell us every morning, a human being is not a matter of color. If you come back and you fail, you say you're black. I'm like, come on, stop. And I grew up and moved, and it helped me actually accept people not thinking the same way, I think, but allowing the conversation to going on, we can disagree, but as long as we talk to each other, other, it's okay. If we stop talking to each other, we go into war, we go into violence, and it's not. It's unnecessary. We don't need to get there.

[Christiane Amanpour]

You're talking about all of this from your own perspective as growing up in Africa under this terrible dictatorship and escaping it. But now we are here in 2019, in the United States or in Great Britain, where this kind of tribalization, this kind of political hatred is. Is really just driving societies and cultures apart. The racism that we see here in the United States overtly. Just talk to me a little bit about what you're noticing now here in our world, in the free world today.

[Anjali Kijo]

I think it's a lot of ignorance, one, and it's a lot of frustration. When globalization we Start talking about globalization. I always say this globalization doesn't mean we all have to think the same and we all have to look the same because we are unique. Even though we belong to the same human family, we don't think the same way in the same family. Brothers and sisters with the same education don't have the same take on the situation they are facing. So we are here now and what I hear, and it started like way before. I mean it start 10, 15 years ago when people would come to me in young Africa and young from around the world, even in America here telling me I was doing a signing at BAM for my book and a couple of young kids come to me, white kids now, I mean, we can't say black are mad here. They have reason to. We have reason to be mad here. Telling me we're going to do a revolution. We're going to break everything, we're going to destroy everything. I said, come again. You come to my signing to tell me that? So you don't know the person that I am. Am. I'm not for chaos, I'm for construction. I can understand you guys are angry. I can understand any reason you have to say this. But if you don't think about building a better society, you are the great loser because you are the young. You're going to be the one that paid the cost of the chaos you want to create.

[Christiane Amanpour]

So don't meet anger with anger. Meet it with a constructive conversation. Conversation. Let's play then a little clip from Celia Cruise, the COVID album. Album that you've been doing. So I hear you singing with me

[Theresa May]

as we're playing that.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Come on, belt it out again. So that's one of her most famous and popular songs. And it roughly translated means life is a carnival. And she's one of the greatest salsa stars. So what is it about her? Why did you decide it? How does she first come into your life?

[Anjali Kijo]

Well, for me, salsa has always been a huge music scene in Africa, everywhere. There's not one artist today. Yusuhun do come started with salsa. Salif Keita, all of them, all of the guys that started with salsa. So for me, and it's usually guys, it's only guys. That's what I said. Salsa is a male dominated form of. So for me, okay, as a girl, I'm like, okay, this music you can't touch because it's only God that plays it. So come Celia. And I'm like, what? What up? She walk on stage, she goes, ahsoka. I said, hey guys, she's Here to settle. You're gonna learn something right now. And her song Kimbera is a lesson of what a voice can be. She used her voice as a percussive instrument. And no one. I said no one till today, can sing like Sister. It's amazing that we have the same kind of range. Because most of our songs, I don't touch, I don't change the key of the song. And from that point on, for me, it becomes clear as a young girl that success or failure has no gender. And if you don't believe in yourself, we're talking about women, leadership. What would that leadership be? Are we always going to be when we put in front of choosing something, where is out of our realm? We're going to go back and say, can I do this? I'm saying no. I say no. To every young girl and every woman out there, you offer a chance, an opportunity, take it. Learn while you're doing it. Don't think back twice. That's what I learned from Celia.

[Christiane Amanpour]

And just let's go back to when you were younger, when she first came into your consciousness. I think you had a bet with one of your childhood friends that she would in fact emerge onto the stage. Tell me about the homework bet.

[Anjali Kijo]

Well, the thing is, I saw the poster and I said to my friends, first, a woman singing salsa, coming to sing. And I go, yes, Marty, Pen, you always know everything. A woman singing salsa. Where do you come from? I'm like, I'm just saying, they say it's not gonna happen. She's gonna be a backing singer. I said, you wanna take a bath? And if it's a front runner, you do my homework for six months, in and out. The math, I give it to you. I hate that. And when she walked on stage, before she came in, they had 15 minutes, guy singing. And they were looking at me like, you say, you see you're gonna lose. I said, you talking to me? And I was there praying, God, I said, God, please let her come. Let me be a front row. And she came out and I'm like,

[Christiane Amanpour]

six months free homework.

[Anjali Kijo]

Yes.

[Theresa May]

Yes.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Because Celia Cruz was the lead singer. And that was the first you had seen of that in Africa.

[Anjali Kijo]

Absolutely the first. I mean, Afro Cuban. Because what I love about Celia is that she never shied away of singing the song that came to Cuba with the slaves. She always paid tribute to all those gods, those orishas. And for me, I was like, how come she knows all this? And it's great.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Talk about that. We're in the United States Right now you've mentioned the origins, the slave music that she never, you know, hid and always used. And you sing a lot about dark subjects as well, with the joyful tone that you have. But look, it is 400 years since 1619, since the first slaves were brought over here. Reflect on that, but also on how you have really wanted to bring Afro music, the Afrobeat, into a wider world. And you don't like the idea of world music, how it's called. I mean, you won your Grammys, but in the world category, what does that mean today?

[Anjali Kijo]

Well, it means that we haven't learned yet that every music that we do today comes from Africa. We like it or not. That's just the simple fact and truth of it. It is true everywhere you turn. Everywhere I turn as a musician, I've always found my continent in it, especially my country. Blues comes from the songs of the slave. The blue note has been created by the Africans. I mean, jazz has been created by African descendants. So for me, music is just what we are, the mixture that we are from the beginning as a human being. We are mixed. There's no such a thing as a pure race. And I don't understand why supremacy is. Because supremacy has to be a higher level of morality, a higher standard in life. It cannot be killing people. It cannot be hating people. Because you're talking about supremacy and hate. Those things don't go together. So for me, Africans that came here, the African American didn't migrate here like the Irish, like any other people. They have been forced to come here. They have created the wealth of this country, and they have created the wealth of Europe. That's slavery today. We don't want to talk about it. We blame Africans for slavery, of course, it comes as a business proposal to the king. And they thought it was going to be a good thing, the lie that had been told to them. They bought the lie, and here we are today. But to make a long story short, I think we ought to always think about the fact that the genesis of the crime committed for the rich country to come is in the blood and sweat of African people. And that model of slavery is also implemented in business because we Africans are not free. They say we have independence. Which independence are you talking about? The raw material we have in our country. We don't define the price of the raw material. The price of oil is not decided by the leaders of Africa. We have the wealth. But the wealth is in the world is the hand of the Westerners Team so far, with, of course, the help of our Leaders that just really facilitate the job for them. So for me as a musician, what I say to people is, we that come from that painful story, how do we create a different narrative? How do we show the world that despite all the wrong that people have done to us, we are still human beings and we are still willing to create bonds between us. If we don't have the choice, we cannot live without each other. It does not matter what skin color you have. We have to live together. And it's something that I learn every day, especially when, as UNICEF Gulu ambassador, we go to villages and you see all those kids suffering. When you face a child soldier, when you face a teenager that had been raped constantly in a conflict and you have no words to touch them and you start singing and you see a smile, that's the power of music. And it's something that makes me humble, makes me come to the core of it and say, as a human being, what do I have to bring to the table?

[Christiane Amanpour]

So what keeps you optimistic?

[Anjali Kijo]

The strength and the resilience of the people around the world. White, black, yellow, red. Because poverty is in this country too. I think we need really to come to realize that, that if we are not each other's keepers, we lose everything. There's no other life out there. There's not another ecosystem as this one on this earth. If we messed it up, rich, poor, yellow, black, whatever color you call yourself, whatever language you speak, Mother Nature don't know that. And deaf don't know. When death come knocking, you can't tell. Deaf. Hey, wait a minute. I have to go count my billions. You're gone.

[Christiane Amanpour]

On that note, Angelique Kijo, thank you so much for joining us.

[Anjali Kijo]

It's always a pleasure be to to be with you. Christian.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Anything optimistic you want to finish on?

[Anjali Kijo]

Always.

[Christiane Amanpour]

It's really good. It's really good. It makes us all wake up and feel happy and optimistic despite the serious issues that we have to deal with. Anjali, thank you very much.

[Anjali Kijo]

You're welcome.

[Christiane Amanpour]

That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye.

[Theresa May]

From London

[Julianne Smith]

Foreign,

[Christiane Amanpour]

This is CNN meteorologist

[Anjali Kijo]

Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the

[Christiane Amanpour]

new CNN weather app.

[Anjali Kijo]

Be prepared for anything with comprehensive coverage

[Christiane Amanpour]

from real experts like me.

[Anjali Kijo]

Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Hey, I'm Anderson Cooper. On my podcast All There Is, we explore grief and loss in all its complexity.

[Theresa May]

My mom would always say, the only way out is through. The only way out is through. There are no shortcuts. You have to feel it.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Her name is Nicole Avant. She's a producer, a former diplomat, and an author. In 2021, Nicole's mom, Jacqueline, was shot to death by an intruder in her home.

[Theresa May]

She was 81 years old and had

[Christiane Amanpour]

been married to Nicole's dad, Clarence, for 54 years. How is grief different for you now than it was? Maybe at first.

[Theresa May]

A lot of really positive memories have now taken over versus the shock and the trauma. The grief is still there, but it shows up kind of with a smile instead.

[Christiane Amanpour]

Talking grief, building community. That's what the podcast is all about. This is all there is. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts.