Who Really Holds the Winning Cards In US-Iran Stalemate?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Amanpour – "Who Really Holds the Winning Cards In US-Iran Stalemate?"

Podcast: Amanpour (CNN Podcasts)
Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Bianna Golodryga (sitting in for Christiane Amanpour)

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Overview

This episode of Amanpour addresses pivotal global and social issues through three focused segments:

• The tangled state of US-Iran relations and the high-stakes posturing in the ongoing diplomatic stalemate.
• A profound exploration of grief, love, and advocacy through the story of Rachel Goldberg Poland, whose son Hersh was killed after being held by Hamas.
• An investigation into the Black maternal health crisis in the US, examining how racism, rather than class, remains the lethal driver.

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Segment 1: US-Iran Stalemate – "Who Holds the Winning Cards?"

Guests: Sanam Vakil (Director, Middle East and North Africa Programme, Chatham House)
Timestamps: [01:27] – [13:05]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• The Stalemate and Competing Narratives

  • President Trump recently called off US-Iran talks, blaming "tremendous infighting" within Iran's leadership.
  • Iran’s top diplomat is negotiating in Russia and Oman, while avoiding direct talks with the US to reject the image of desperation ([02:48]).

• Iranian Unity and the Real Balance of Power

  • Sanam Vakil: "There's much more unity within this system [Iran]… This has been an existential fight for the survival of the Islamic Republic… the key decision makers at the top… are working together… through consensus, and that is still very operational." ([02:48])
  • Both sides have maximalist demands preventing a breakthrough.

• Assessment of Pressure and Timelines

  • The US believes Iran is pressed by a looming oil overflow; Iranian media say they can last months.
  • Sanam Vakil: "This is a psychological war alongside, you know, the actual military dynamics that we have seen play out." ([04:27])

• Contingency Planning and Economic Resilience

  • Iran, experienced with sanctions since 2019, has developed workarounds (overland exports, Caspian Sea, etc.), and doesn't let economic crisis solely drive decisions ([05:49]).
  • The war’s cost is severe — "practically half of Iran's GDP".

• Negotiation Dynamics & Possible Pathways Forward

  • Iran wants a guarantee the war will permanently end and sanctions relief.
  • Iran feels confident due to control over the Strait of Hormuz and nuclear leverage but risks overplaying its hand if Trump’s attention shifts ([07:16]).
  • Initial confidence-building steps may include opening the Strait in exchange for the US lifting the blockade, but all sanctions won't be lifted immediately.
  • "This is a negotiation … the opening of the Strait… can be an initial test run, a bit of confidence building… good for the region, for the Gulf states… But… there would still be leverage on the US side." ([08:01])

• Regional Dynamics and Proxy Issues

  • Iran’s contacts with Russia and Oman are an attempt to engage neighbors and leverage Moscow’s past nuclear negotiation role ([09:57]).
  • Proxy groups, especially Hezbollah, are critical to any regional settlement, but the ceasefire is fragile and could collapse at any time.
  • "This is a ceasefire in all but name only… Iran has been a longtime supporter of Hezbollah…" ([12:03])
  • Diplomacy must aim for broader de-escalation, including Iran ceasing support for destabilizing proxies.

Notable Quotes

• Sanam Vakil: "President Trump is not really receiving accurate intelligence that helps him understand the mindset and the pain threshold of the Islamic Republic." ([04:27])
• Sanam Vakil: "Both are holding guns to each other's heads." ([04:27])
• Sanam Vakil: "Economic pressure doesn't drive decision making on its own in Iran. This is a country that has been suffering through sanctions for quite some time." ([05:49])
• Sanam Vakil: "Iran has an interest… in solving this nuclear standoff with the United States… they've been experiencing huge unrest." ([08:01])

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Segment 2: A Mother's Grief and Resolve – Rachel Goldberg Poland

Guest: Rachel Goldberg Poland (author of "When We See You Again")
Timestamps: [14:33] – [36:40]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Genesis and Purpose of the Book

  • The book is Goldberg Poland’s attempt to answer the relentless question: “How are you?” in the wake of her son Hirsch’s death after 328 days in Hamas captivity.
  • "This is… a love story that is swaddled in pain, or perhaps a pain story that is doused in love." ([15:18])
  • “My soul was buckling from the weight of the pain of this loss that is very universal… All of us are going to suffer loss and suffering and grief and mourning at different points in our lives." ([15:18])

• Enduring Grief and Emotional 'Costumes'

  • Describes the exhaustion and isolation from pretending to be okay — “more torturous than exhausting” during those months when Hirsch was alive but captive.
  • "Pretend to be a human, get up, go. And I would go because it was my son. And it was the only option." ([20:58])

• Powerlessness and Disillusionment With Influence

  • Not everyone who "wants to help" is able or willing to. Power is concentrated; most are "sheep" in the global order:
    • "About 99% of us are sheep. …there is a very small percentage of people who do move the needle…" ([24:42])
    • “I actually… wish I could go back to the sheep that I had been before October 7…” ([24:42])

• The Coexistence of Pain and Love

  • On mourning and cherishing joy: “You can live within the not being comfortable while still knowing that there are many beautiful things in our lives and blessings…" ([17:56])
  • “We have to get used to the fact that we will never get used to the facts…” ([17:56])

• Seeking Solace and Spiritual Connection

  • Rachel finds "comfort" in daily rituals and prayers, continuing to speak to Hirsch's soul:
    • “I think what brings me peace and solace… I am speaking to Hirsch throughout the day. The very first words that I say when I open my eyes…” ([26:27])
    • “I have to learn a new way of… experiencing Hirsch now that I can’t use my five senses…” ([26:27])

• Vindication and Letting Go of Self-Blame

  • Learning Hirsch knew she and John were fighting for his release provided consolation:
    • "He heard you… and there was something about that that was permissive for me to breathe differently, and I will breathe differently from that conversation… for the rest of my life." ([30:03])

• Empathy and Duality Amid Conflict

  • Goldberg Poland’s compassion extends universally: "The people who suffer the most when there are these horrible conflicts… are the innocent civilians who are caught in the crosshairs…" ([32:05])
  • “If you only cry when one side’s babies die, it means your moral compass is broken, and therefore your humanity is broken.” ([32:05])

• Love as Armor

  • Describes how she loved Hirsch with total, unapologetic subjectivity; this love, she believes, became his psychological armor — and now, in his absence, hers ([34:08]).

• Finding a Why to Endure the How

  • Hirsch quoted Viktor Frankl in captivity: “He who has a why can bear any how.”
  • "There is a purpose for me still being here in this world. We're actually not what we say, and we're not what we think, and we're not even what we believe. We are what we do, and that's it." ([34:55])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is the singular most painful, difficult question for me to answer, which is, how are you? And this book is the answer to how I am.” – Rachel Goldberg Poland ([15:18])
• "I actually think that it [the pressure to 'move on'] is a form of emotional barbarism or emotional gaslighting. And I'm acknowledging that I am not okay. And I'm okay within not being okay." ([17:56])
• “[Hirsch] heard you… and there was something about that that was permissive for me to breathe differently, and I will breathe differently from that conversation…” ([30:03])
• “If you only cry when one side’s babies die, it means your moral compass is broken, and therefore your humanity is broken.” ([32:05])
• “We are what we do, and that’s it.” ([34:55])

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Segment 3: The Black Maternal Health Crisis in America

Guest: Kiara Bridges (author of "Expecting Inequity"; Law Professor)
Interviewer: Michelle Martin
Timestamps: [38:20] – [52:22]

Key Discussion Points & Insights

• Alarming Disparities Not Explained by Class

  • Black Americans are three times more likely to die in childbirth than white Americans — and this gap grows with wealth/education ([38:26], [39:02]).
  • “Having some degree of class privilege… protects you from racial disadvantage… However, the fact that black people are dying more frequently than their white counterparts when they are wealthier, it means that class privilege actually opens us up to a particular type of vulnerability.” ([39:02])

• Racism, Not Poverty — The Engine of Disparity

  • Rates of maternal and infant death are not about poverty — “They are a problem of race, of racism, to be precise.” ([40:34])

• Multi-Layered Causes: Weathering and Epigenetics

  • Chronic stress from living as a Black person in the US, known as "weathering," is physically destructive ([41:05]).
  • Epigenetics: Trauma and stress impact gene expression across generations.
    • “My mother, my maternal grandmother was a maid in the Jim Crow South … I likely inherited that genetic expression from my mother." ([41:05])

• Systemic vs. Individual Factors

  • While implicit bias training is important, it is not enough; true solutions must address structural racism ([43:40]).
  • “Implicit bias just seems like a pat and easy fix… while professing to actually be doing something to solve this problem.” ([43:40])

• Class Privilege Doesn’t Protect from Neglect

  • Story of Annette, a privileged Black woman and civil rights attorney, who nearly died due to medical neglect that ignored her symptoms ([44:58]).
  • "It did not matter at all that she had a JD from one of the top law schools... They did not encourage her doctors to actually give her the quality of health care that she deserved." ([44:58])

• Structural Solutions and Racially-Concordant Care

  • Black patients sometimes have better outcomes with Black providers, e.g., lower infant mortality.
  • Even public hospitals serving marginalized populations may give better outcomes due to stricter regulation and anti-racist orientation ([48:38]).

• Risks of Policy Reversal and Research Gaps

  • DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) setbacks threaten essential research into disparities ([51:07]).
  • "We can count the needless deaths that are going to happen. We can count the preventable deaths that will inevitably occur through our steady determination not to pay attention to race." ([51:07])

Notable Quotes

• “The fact that black people are dying more frequently than their white counterparts when they are wealthier, it means that class privilege actually opens us up to a particular type of vulnerability.” – Kiara Bridges ([39:02])
• “Racial disparities and maternal mortality are not a problem of class. They are a problem of race, of racism, to be precise.” – Michelle Martin ([40:34])
• “Implicit bias just seems like a pat and easy fix. It seems like something where you can maintain the status quo while professing to actually be doing something…” – Kiara Bridges ([43:40])
• “We can count the preventable deaths that will inevitably occur through our steady determination not to pay attention to race.” – Kiara Bridges ([51:07])

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Additional Notes and Memorable Spin-offs

• London Marathon Recap ([52:24]):
  • Kenya’s Sebastian Sawhe runs the marathon in under 2 hours (1:59:30).
  • Ethiopia’s Tigis Assefa breaks women’s record (2:15:46).
  • Jordan Adams runs with a fridge on his back to symbolize Alzheimer’s burden.

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For Listeners

This episode provides:

• An unvarnished look inside the maneuverings of power between the US and Iran, peeling back media narratives to reveal how much is posturing, and how much is rooted in real capabilities and constraints.
• A deeply moving account of individual resilience, loss, and relentless advocacy from Rachel Goldberg Poland – reminding us of war's immeasurable human cost.
• A clear-eyed, evidence-based take on why, even for wealthy and educated Black Americans, giving birth in the US remains more dangerous — and why only an honest reckoning with racism will save lives.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Bianna Golodryga]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. We're not doing this anymore. We have all the cards. A diplomatic stalemate after Tehran offered a new deal to reopen the strait and end the war. Middle east expert Sanam Bakil gives us the analysis then.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

It is the singular most painful, difficult question for me to answer, which is how are you? And this book is the answer to how I am.

[Bianna Golodryga]

When we see you again. A mother's love, grief and trauma. My sit down with Rachel Goldberg, Poland, whose son Hersh was killed by Hamas after 328 days in captivity.

[Kiara Bridges]

Plus the fact that black people are dying more frequently than their white counterparts when they are wealthier, it means that class privilege actually opens us up to to a particular type of vulnerability.

[Bianna Golodryga]

The black Maternal health crisis in America, author Kiara Bridgets explains its impact on black mothers in her new book, Expecting Inequity.

[Kiara Bridges]

Welcome to the program, everyone.

[Bianna Golodryga]

I'm beyond in New York sitting in for Christian Amanpour. Donald Trump is huddling with his national security team on Iran today. After calling off at the last minute the US Negotiating team's trip to Pakistan. The president said Iran can call if they want and added that the war could come to an end very soon. Meanwhile, Iran's top diplomat is in Russia today meeting with President Vladimir Putin. Iran is floating an initial deal that would require Washington to permanently end the war in exchange for an open Strait of Hormuz. The navigation of the strait, as we know, was not an issue until this war began. Iran says a second step would be more focused on discussions on how to manage the strait and on its nuclear program. For now, the White House reiterates that it holds the card in these negotiations. Sanam Vakil is director of the Middle east and North Africa Program at Chatham House, and she joins me now live from London. Sanam, welcome to the program. So as we noted, President Trump said this weekend's talks had collapsed because of, quote, tremendous infighting within Iran's leadership. But as you point out, Tehran is deliberately avoiding a face to face meeting today to deny the president the narrative that they are, quote, desperate to talk. So what is the more accurate read right now?

[Sanam Vakil]

It's good to be with you. I think that President Trump is trying to present the Iranian system as divided and infighting and thereby that is why he is not able to deliver a big, beautiful deal with the Iranians after 38 days of war. The reality is that, of course, Iran's system is factionalized. They have political differences, policy differences. But at this current juncture, there's much more unity within this system. This has been an existential fight for the survival of the Islamic Republic and the key decision makers at the top, whether it's Iran's speaker of the Parliament, Mohammad Barreir Kaliboff, who met JD Vance in Islamabad, but also Iran's Minister of Defense, along with many others, are working together the way the system has always operated, through consensus, and that is still very operational. The problem is that Iran and President Trump have very maximalist demands, and that's why we have yet to see this big deal come to fruition.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And we have dueling timelines as well. President Trump has claimed that Iran's blockaded oil pipelines are days away from exploding from within, to use his words. Meantime, Iranian state media is insisting that the regime can survive for months. So as the president is huddling with his national security advisers today, whose clock is actually ticking faster right now, and what do you expect the next move to be?

[Sanam Vakil]

Well, they're certainly in a stalemate or both holding guns to each other's heads. The reality is that President Trump is not really receiving accurate intelligence that helps him understand the mindset and the pain threshold of the Islamic Republic. From the get go. This war was prosecuted with misinformation that the regime was fragile and going to crumble. Remember, this was only going to be a four or five, five day operation at the beginning. And now he's being told that Iran's oil supplies or oil stockpiles are going to overflow and thereby that's going to push them to the negotiating table. That's wrong. This is a system that is looking for a deal that isn't going to collapse imminently. And it's prepared for a number of contingencies. And so this is actually a test of wills. This is a psychological war alongside, you know, the actual military dynamics that we have seen play out.

[Bianna Golodryga]

So I'll flip the question then. You say the president isn't receiving accurate intelligence. Are the Iranian hardliners, are those IRGC leadership figures receiving accurate intelligence right now about the state of the economy and their oil supply?

[Sanam Vakil]

Well, I think they've certainly prepared for contingencies. They've been down this road before. In 2019, when President Trump issued maximum pressure sanctions and brought Iran's oil sales down to record lows of maximum 200,000 barrels a day, it faced similar problems. It eventually developed workarounds. So I think we are in the workaround moment where it is finding other ways to export, whether over land or through The Caspian Sea, it has these contingencies that give it time. Also, the economic pressure doesn't drive decision making on its own in Iran. This is a country that has been suffering through sanctions for quite some time. The cost of this war is practically half of Iran's GDP as it is. So I think they're fully aware of the crisis that they're facing. What the Iranians are seeking is obviously a permanent end to this war guarantees that it's not going to happen again, and they're looking for sanctions relief. So they're playing ball to get it. But it doesn't mean that they're invincible. They feel like they have the upper hand because they have authority over the Strait of Hormuz as well as still holding some nuclear cards in their standoff with President Trump. But they could overplay their hand, and President Trump could just get tired and begin to start prioritizing other issues that matter to Americans.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Yeah, and as we noted, Iran is hardening its stance here, demanding US Guarantees, planning front and ending its blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, and then pushing nuclear talks to phase two. The president himself has commended the Iranians in terms of their negotiating capabilities and how willing they are to drag things out. But as Axios notes, quote, lifting the blockade and ending the war would remove President Trump's leverage and any future talks to remove Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium and convince Tehran to suspend enrichment, two primary war objectives. So is this offer now on the table, in your view, a non starter for Trump?

[Sanam Vakil]

I think that this is a negotiation that is going to take some time, and perhaps the opening of the Strait of Hormuz and the US Lifting of the blockade can be an initial test run, a bit of confidence building, if you will, that would be good for the region, for the Gulf states that have been deeply impacted, obviously good for Iran, but also for the international community that is bearing the financial costs of this war as prices are going to continue to soar over the coming weeks and months. What would happen if this deal was, let's say, accepted is that, of course, President Trump wouldn't lift all sanctions relief. There would still be leverage on the US Side to force the nuclear negotiations. That would be very important. The US Is smart enough and well versed in negotiations, President Trump himself, to hold some cards back, incentivize the Iranians to the table for the nuclear negotiations as well. And Iran has an interest, actually, in solving this nuclear standoff with the United States, really, because they've been under sanctions for well over four decades. But most severely over the past few years, and they've been experiencing huge unrest. Saw one of the most brutal crackdowns in January. For this system in Iran to survive, not just the war, but also try and rehabilitate a bit with their people to build back their economy, they do need that sanctions relief. So there is a give and take on both sides that could be reached.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Foreign Minister Arakchi's visit to Moscow, meeting with Vladimir Putin. What should we read into that? What could Iran possibly be hoping to get out of Moscow that they're not getting from Islamabad?

[Sanam Vakil]

I don't think this is an either or. Iran is still working, I think, closely with the Pakistanis, as is President Trump, and they remain the key interlocutors. But this tour to Moscow, but also to Muscat, Oman, really suggests that Iran is trying to engage with its neighbors. It has a long standing relationship with President Putin. And perhaps the Russians will play an important role on the nuclear side of the negotiations, where Russia in the past has offered to take Iran's highly enriched uranium, for example. And President Trump is looking to extract that nuclear dust, as he calls it, but wants to guarantee that Iran isn't going to use that material and weaponize that material further. The Muscat side of the negotiations is the pathway to open the Strait of Hormuz, where Tehran has been working with the Omanis to come up with an arrangement that would release the pressure in the region and build again some confidence on all sides. But it's unclear if this strategy is going to result in anything meaningful. There is a lot of conversation going on, letters and proposals being exchanged behind the scenes and without the direct talks taking place place, nevertheless.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And finally, the Hezbollah angle of all of this, we saw the deadliest day in Lebanon since this truce was announced. Hezbollah is now trading treason accusations with the Lebanese government directly. What role, if any, is Iran playing in what's transpiring right now in Lebanon? And these fragile ceasefire, I mean, they're already being passed, blown up. I mean, there's fighting going on. So I don't know how much the cease fire can be described as being place or holding. The President hasn't weighed in yet. But what about that particular angle of this story are you looking at?

[Sanam Vakil]

I mean, as we saw in Gaza, this is a ceasefire in all but name only. And this tit for tat back and forth between the Israelis and Hezbollah could very easily creep in and break the agreement to extend and allow diplomacy to play out. Iran has been a longtime supporter of Hezbollah looking to preserve and protect the group. And as part of its negotiation with the Trump administration. The bigger picture is that Iran is looking to solve or end all of these conflicts simultaneously, which will be very hard to achieve because obviously for the Israelis and for the U.S. but the region more broadly, obtaining an agreement from Iran that it cease and desist from supporting proxy groups that destabilize is really important. So, again, this is another standoff that needs time to play out. And there's a lot of pressure there, of course, on ordinary people.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Sanaa Vakil, thank you as always for your insights.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

We appreciate it.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And do stay with cnn. We'll be right back after the break. Two former Israeli prime ministers are joining forces to try to oust current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in next general election. Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid said they were combining their parties in what would be, quote, a first step in the process of repairing the state of Israel. Netanyahu's polling is weak at the moment. A recent survey from Hebrew University found that more than half of Israelis rated his leadership as poor or very poor. The prime minister has touted success in Gaza, including achieving his goal of bringing home all of the October 7th hostages. But many hostages who were abducted alive were returned as remains. Among them, 23 year old American Israeli Hersh Goldberg Pollin. In a new book called When We See youe Again, his mother, Rachel Goldberg, Poland, shares her unimaginable trauma. Hersh was abducted, injured and held captive in the tunnels of Gaza for nearly 11 months and ultimately killed there. His mother lets us see Hirsch through her eyes and experience what it's like to grapple with her agony. I spoke with her about love, grief and the strength she derives from Hirsch's own words.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Rachel goldberg, Poland, it's good to see you. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

This book, when we see you again, really should come with a disclaimer. It is painful, it is searing, and yet it finds a place in your soul as it did mine. And so my question is, how did you decide to come about writing a book that's not a memoir, that's not specifically about Hirsch, it's not specifically about October 7th. It weaves together your story, your childhood, your family life, some quite frightening premonitions, and also introduces us to your beautiful son.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

So the real origin of this was simply that my soul was buckling from the weight of the pain of this loss that is very universal. All of us are going to suffer loss and suffering and grief and mourning at different points in our lives. This is part of the human enterprise when we come to this, this world, this strange, mysterious, messy place that's also full of beautiful joy and blessing. And there are going to be points that are challenging for all of us. And I was having real, a real crisis of shouldering the weight of this loss of my only son, Hirsch. And it started to pour out in these packages of words. And I thought actually this morning about how effective giving over our words can be in alleviating tremendous suffering. And my husband John said, start writing it because he saw I was actually drowning. I was drowning. I really felt viscerally up to here that it was going to consume me. And it became really exactly what you're saying. I don't think this is a memoir. It's certainly not a tell all. It's not a he said this and she did that. It is, I think, a love story that is swaddled in pain, or perhaps a pain story that is doused in love. And it is definitely the answer that so many kind, well meaning people ask me. It's an innocuous, normal question. And it is the singular most painful, difficult question for me to answer, which is, how are you? And this book is the answer to how I am,

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

to that question of how are you? You write about a workaround that you've established with those in your life, including your father. And you talk about phone calls with your dad. And your father calls and says, how are you, honey? Lie to me. And how do you reply?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

And I say, I'm dandy. How are you? And he says, I'm dandy. And then we just start our short check in conversation. But this is, you know, the lying and acting and faking and pretending that so many bereaved people have to do. Because there's an obsession, at least in most Western cultures, of keep moving, progress, change. You're going to get better. Are you getting better? Did you get better? We know you're taking two steps forward and five steps back, but you're still taking those steps. And on the one hand I acknowledge that, and on the other hand, I think that this wily, intense obsession that other people have with people who are in pain, getting better, I actually think that it is a form of emotional barbarism or emotional gaslighting. And I'm acknowledging that I am not okay. And I'm okay within not being okay. And actually, just two days ago, another mother who lost a son during this period, she lost her son on the morning of October 7, 2023. She said, we have to get used to the fact that we will never get used to the facts, which I thought was brilliant and true. And you can live within the not being comfortable while still knowing that there are many beautiful things in our lives and blessings in our lives and happiness and laughter and things to look forward to. And yet we can hold both of those complicated realities of the good and the pain at once.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

You talk about in this book receiving that text message on October 7th at 8:11 in the morning that forever changed your life and your world became the before and after. And you write everything that happened ever after in your life, from your birth on October 12, 1969, until that moment was over with two texts from Hirsch, I love you and I'm sorry. And then subsequently, for 330 days, the world saw you as a pillar composure. And you write in the book that you yourself were instead a wounded animal and allergic to the, quote, heavy costume that you have to wear. Are you still wearing a costume right now? And how exhausting was that, having to put on that invisible costume for the outside world?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

So it was more torturous than exhausting wearing that costume during those 330 days when Hirsch was still alive. And we were running, John and I were running to the ends of the earth trying to do every single thing imaginable, as were all of the families of all of the hostages. And we were all doing it in whatever way felt authentic to each of us. And we were all. It was such a wide, diverse group of people. You know, the original hostage cohort was comprised of people from more than 30 nationalities. And they were Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. And so our methods. And we were all different people. And people in crisis respond differently. And we felt. Every morning I woke up and what I really wanted to do was lie on the floor in the fetal position, moaning. I felt that someone had cleaved part of my body off and walked away. But I knew that wouldn't be productive in trying to save him and them. And so that was when this real acting, faking, pretending, lying, you know, in many ways I would say to myself, pretend to be a human, get up, go. And I would go because it was my son. And it was the only option. I think that now in the after after of Hirsch having been executed in a tunnel on day 328, we only knew about it on day 3:30. So to me, he was, you know, he was still alive for those two additional days. I've been not all here in this world, which makes sense. A dear friend of Mine, who's a very religious person, said, well, obviously you don't feel like yourself anymore because part of you is in the world to come. I think of it as almost like after the Chernobyl disaster. The chemical composition of that area changed. The trees changed. That's the reality. And we change when we lose someone who is integral to our. To our very being. And I'm different now. I don't feel that I have to act now, but to. We had to compose ourselves to have access to people who could possibly have helped.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

So let's talk about those people who could have possibly helped. I interviewed you on day 46, you and John. And I interviewed you on day 103, and that happened to be in Davos, Switzerland, at the World Economic Forum. And I sensed at the time that you were uncomfortable being there. And I asked you why you were there, and you told me that you were speaking to important people because you wanted them to do something, and then they told you they want to help, they want to do something. And you said to me, wanting something and doing something are two very unrelated verbs. Have you gotten any closer to understanding why the people who could have done something didn't do more?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

It wasn't in their interest. But what I have learned and what was very clear to me then and is still clear to me today, is that Hirsch was a pawn in a game. I was a pawn in a game. John was a pawn in a game. And to be honest, I actually, from my experience, and this is simply my view, I don't know if it's accurate, but my impression, and especially after spending time with so many people of power and influence, is that about 99% of us are sheep. And there is a very small percentage of people who do move the needle, who do decide kind of how the world dances. And I'm not knocking us sheep. I am also a sheep. And, in fact, I really wish I could go back to the sheep that I had been before October 7, because I had a really nice pasture and I had these really great guardrails, and I was very satisfied.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

There are parts in this book that were especially searing and painful for me to read, and this was one of them. But I think it's so important. And you wrote, hoping the girls will grow up, please, God, get married and have children. We assume they will one day have the privilege and blessing of being buried with their spouses. But Hirsch, my sweet, forever boy, we didn't want to want him to be alone. So we bought three graves so that one day John and I would flank our treasured and beautiful Always Boy. Just providing that eternal protection for him. Bring you some sort of peace and solace.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

I think what brings me. I think what brings me peace and solace, which I don't know that I have. It's aspirational. I would. I aspire to have peace. I aspire to have solace. I don't know that I have either. But every day, something that sort of centers me is, first of all, I'm speaking to Hirsch throughout the day. The very first words that I say when I open my eyes. There's a line that many Jewish people say upon waking, which is thanking our idea of God for giving us back our soul and saying, you have tremendous faith in me, which I've always loved, because I kind of feel like we're taught. Oh, the whole dynamic with whatever anyone's idea of God is, is that we have faith in God, and yet the very first thing we say every morning is, holy cow, you have such faith in me. You've given me back my soul today. I'm not done. I've got work to do. Let's go. And then I talk to Hirsch, and then I get out of bed, and then when I start my morning prayers, which I do after coffee, there's a ritual. I'm speaking to him throughout my prayers, and I think that knowing in my belief that his soul is still here, a soul endures. So it's confusing because I have to learn a new way of greeting and experiencing Hirsch now that I can't use my five senses, which is how I used to communicate and experience him. But that gives me comfort, and I very much declare it before my morning prayers. There's an introductory prayer, and I actually. I say it first in the Hebrew, and then when I say it in English, I say it specifically about Hersh's soul, that his soul is here. I am so grateful that that gorgeous soul exists.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

I told a mutual friend that you and I have and share, you possess a rare gift, and that is you never waste a single word. Every word out of your mouth has a purpose.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

You should tell John that.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

And that is, mark my words, I have to read that because I didn't want to screw up in saying that. And it's highlighted by how you name different chapters in this book, starting with the beginning, screaming into Gaza. The end on day 330, burying myself, Shiva. And finally, meeting Light. And let's talk about that light. And the released hostage of or Levi, who changed everything for you. He told you that it was Hirsch. Who kept repeating Viktor Frankl's quote.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

He said to me in Hebrew, but

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

let me just translate it. He who has a why can bear any how. And he also told you something else. He told you that Hirsch was not broken and that he heard your words. He heard you in an interview say that you had met with the Secretary of State. It was clear to Hirsch that you were fighting and doing everything you could to bring him home. And that brings me back to what. What you also told me in Davos. And you said that the world has failed him. The world failed all the hostages. You have failed the hostages. You said that you yourself failed. Having heard that from or and hearing that Hirsch knew that you were moving heaven and earth to do everything you could, are you still blaming yourself?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

I. I did still fail him. I think when I say we failed him, you know, that the world failed him. I am part of the world. I tried. I think I even tried more than 100%. And sometimes 100% is not enough. But having or Levy share that with us on the evening of 4 96. So for almost 500 days, we knew nothing about Hirsch. And he had already, at that point, we had buried him, you know, more than 150 days before we met. Or Levy. And then. Or gives me this magnificent package of hearing that he made it very clear. He said it wasn't a news piece about you. It was actually your voice in an interview explaining who you were meeting with and what you and John were trying to do in English. And he heard you, and there was something about that that was permissive for me to breathe differently, and I will breathe differently from that conversation we had with or for the rest of my life. There's no doubt one of the million

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

ways you captivated the world is through your strength and your empathy and empathy for those who have suffered loss. And mothers like you in Israel and in Gaza, were you surprised that people really took to that notion? That you, at a time when you could have just been focusing on the heartache your family was feeling, were also thinking about other mothers who were bearing their own children?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

To me, it was very obvious that the people who suffer the most when there are these horrible conflicts, whether it's in world history or in current history, in the world, current events in the world, are the innocent civilians who are caught in the crosshairs and those. Those of us who've experienced that. I think it doesn't matter what color, what texture, what clothes, what vibe, what worldview, what philosophy you have. We're all suffering loss and we can hold two truths. We can actually really juggle many more than two truths. I'm a terrible juggler, and I'm very bad at multitasking. But I was able to say, and you heard me say to you at the time, I'm terribly worried and concerned about the innocent civilians in Gaza, and I am terribly worried and concerned about the innocent civilians in Gaza who were dragged there on October 7th. I don't have to choose a side, and I don't have to choose a team. I'm worried about my son, and I'm worried about her son. And there was a journalist who, in the beginning, wrote that if you only cry when one side's babies die, it means your moral compass is broken, and therefore your humanity is broken. And John and I have felt relief that we know that even with this Herculean colossal challenge and loss that we have been dealt, that our moral compasses are still calibrated. And that gives me hope.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Let's end on your delicious cookie. As you described the 23 years, plus how many days.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

334.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

334 days you had with Hirsch, you write in the book about your unabashed adoration for him. You write, I could only see Adonis before me, not just physically. Everything he said kept me wrapped. I heard whatever he told me and took it as a baseless and irrational perfection. I was not impartial, and thank God he knew it. Bad parenting? Maybe. But now I am endlessly glad I was so subjective. I think it helped him when he was trying to survive. I sealed him in mother love, my protective armor. You sealed him in that armor that helped him survive all those days. And now you are the one who has to survive. Does his memory serve as your protective armor now?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

I think that in some ways it does. And I think what else really helps me is that mantra that he was saying to or Levi, to Elie Sharabi, to other people who were in the tunnels with him, who did come, come home. The idea that when there is a why, you can manage any how, the how is that, that John and I have been handed is how do we make it through the rest of our lives in a world without Hirsch? And yet I know from that mantra there is a purpose for me still being here in this world. We're actually not what we say, and we're not what we think, and we're not even what we believe. We are what we do, and that's it. And so all of us have to do, and that's what we are. Feeling motivated from Hirsch's mantra to chase and make happen.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Are you dreaming yet?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

I wish. I still say, come haunt me. Come visit me in my dreams.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

I wish you dreams very soon.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

Me too. Me too.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Rachel, thank you so much. Thank you for sitting down with us. Thank you for sharing Hirsch with us. Thank you for letting us love your son who was a stranger to us before we met you. This is a book everyone should read. It's painful, but it's so important. Thank you.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

Thank you.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Rachel Goldberg, Poland, describes herself as a tragic optimist for the world.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

She's become the embodiment of strength and compassion.

[Bianna Golodryga]

We'll be right back after this short break.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Bianna Golodryga]

3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available,

[Kiara Bridges]

taxes and fees extra.

[Bianna Golodryga]

See full [e-mail] I'm Jack McBrayer and

[Kiara Bridges]

I am back on the hunt to find even wilder. Oh, no. Is this real? It is more outrageous.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

You like pink?

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

It's my favorite color.

[Kiara Bridges]

Over the top houses on the market. Oh, look at this bathroom. And meet the fascinating people who call these one of a kind places home. How does one obtain a caboose?

[Bianna Golodryga]

Zillow gone Wild.

[Kiara Bridges]

All new season, Friday at 9:30 on HGTV.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Now to a shocking issue affecting black women across America. New research reveals that African American women disproportionately face serious challenges during pregnancy and childbirth, regardless of their socioeconomic background. Author and professor Kiara Bridges joins Michelle Martin to discuss her new book, Expecting Inequity and how persistent racism has created a maternal health crisis.

[Michelle Martin]

Thanks, Bianna. Professor Chiara Bridges, thanks so much for talking with us.

[Kiara Bridges]

Well, thank you for having me.

[Michelle Martin]

So by now many people know that black Americans in the United States are three times more likely than white Americans to die from pregnancy related causes. Okay, but what's so striking about your latest research and your latest book? It's not just that this gap does not close with income or education. It actually widens. And I think that is just the kind of thing that just makes people's heads spin. And so the first thing I wanted to ask is when you dug in on this particular issue. Were you surprised?

[Kiara Bridges]

Absolutely. The statistic that you just mentioned is the engine behind this book. It was discovering that statistic that actually encouraged me, incited me, provoked me to engage in two years of research that culminated in expecting inequity. And it's not only true for maternal deaths, but it's also true for infant deaths. So the babies that black people have, when they are at the higher ends of the socioeconomic ladder, they more frequently die than the babies that poor black people have. So there was something there. And I think there's a common misperception in the United States that, that having some degree of class privilege, having high income, having wealth, having a high status job, that that protects you from racial disadvantage, that protects you from racism. And it's true in a lot of respects, class privilege is protective. However, the fact that black people are dying more frequently than their white counterparts when they are wealthier, it means that class privilege actually opens us up to a particular type of vulnerability. There's a type of marginalization that happens when one has wealth and status and income. And so that is the engine behind this book. And I sought to interrogate that a little more as well as discover what black people were doing in light of that really unique and unexpected marginalization. You're right.

[Michelle Martin]

The higher rates of black maternal deaths in the United States are not because black people disproportionately bear the burdens of poverty. Black people have higher rates of maternal deaths than white people across all income levels. Racial disparities and maternal mortality are not a problem of class. They are a problem of race, of racism, to be precise. But if it's not poverty, if it's not that, what are some of the things that are happening to black people, black patients, even in well resourced settings that are leading to these outcomes?

[Kiara Bridges]

Some of the factors that are contributing to the higher rates of death and in severe injuries among pregnant folks, even at the higher ends of the sociological economic ladder, there is actually many different contributors. The fact is that being a person of color in the United States, being a black person in the United States, it's stressful. And there's reams of research at this point that demonstrates. It's called weathering. There was a public health researcher is a public health researcher, Arlene Geronimus, who has devoted her life to investigating just how chronic stress weathers the body systems of people who are exposed to it. I've also talked about in the book epigenetics. And epigenetics is a very touchy subject to talk about because it's so easily misunderstood as genetics. No one is making the argument that black people have some race specific genetic variation that causes us to die more frequently than our white counterparts. Instead, epigenetics refers to the expression of the genes. And the genes are expressed in particular ways according to their environment. And so if you live in a hostile environment, your genes will be expressed in a way that is inconsistent or contrary to life and health. And I tell the story in the book. My mother, my maternal grandmother was a maid in the Jim Crow South. She cleaned white people's houses her entire life. She died prematurely. And I think it would be fantastical to believe that her genes were not expressed in a way that led to her premature death. Moreover, she passed that genetic expression down to my mother. I likely inherited that genetic expression from my mother. And so even though I have all this privilege and all this elite status and la la la, I'm just two generations out of Jim Crow. And so it would be surprising if I have not inherited those expressions of genes that would compromise my health and that might lead to the pregnancy complications that might end up.

[Michelle Martin]

But what about what happens in the exam room? I mean, you said that there are system issues, but there are also these individual interactions because I think it is fairly standard, at least was until the current era, to have sort of implicit bias training. Does your research indicate that there are still these one on one patient to medical provider interactions that contributes to more negative outcomes for black patients?

[Kiara Bridges]

Yeah, I mean, so I don't deny in my research that implicit bias is a factor towards the inferior health care that black people receive from their providers. My problem with implicit bias as an explanation is that it has been a total explanation of all manner of racial inequities and racial disparities. And that's what medical schools and nursing schools have been doing. They've been trying to fix the problem of racial disparities in health and racial disparities in maternal mortality and morbidity by ensuring that providers don't have these implicit biases against their black patients. Again, incredibly laudable. But there's just so much more that we can do, and especially when you're a person like me and you believe that structural contributors are what are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to killing black people and shortening their lives and making them sick, then implicit bias just seems like a pat and easy fix. It seems like something where you can maintain the status quo while professing to actually be doing something to solve this problem.

[Michelle Martin]

Tell us about ineffective and about her experience and what does Annette's story tell us about the limits of class privilege, especially in these high stakes moments when something goes wrong, Right?

[Kiara Bridges]

Absolutely. So you know, Annette, I actually began the book with her. She earned her law degree from an elite law school. She's a civil rights attorney, she's married. She was pregnant with her first child. She was healthy. And she started experiencing a rapid heartbeat towards the tail end of her second trimester. And she would go to the emergency room whenever this happened, and the provider's there would tell her nothing's wrong, you know, it's just stress. So, long story short, it turns out that her rapid heartbeat was caused from a pregnancy induced heart condition that could have been lethal. They finally diagnosed it when she was in labor. Because she was in the hospital, they did an EKG on her, discovered the heart condition, the delirium inducing pain was actually caused from pancreatitis. They could have discovered the pancreatitis if by a simple blood test would have revealed that she had elevated levels of her enzymes. No one bothered to do a workup of her to discover sort of the source of her symptoms. In fact, she might have died from the pancreatitis. She ended up having emergency surgery to remove her pancreas. So this is a clear example of medical neglect. It's a clear example of not paying attention to patients when they report their symptoms. And it did not matter at all that she had a JD from one of the top law schools in the United States. It didn't matter at all that she was married, that her husband was there with her. It didn't matter that she was well spoken. None of these things mattered. They did not encourage her doctors to actually give her the quality of health care that she deserved.

[Michelle Martin]

You also point out that the US Is one of only a small number of countries where maternal mortality is actually increasing, right?

[Kiara Bridges]

Yes.

[Michelle Martin]

And the only industrialized nation among that small group of countries. So what if you had black practitioners though? Does that make a difference in these outcomes?

[Kiara Bridges]

So I talk about it in the book about racially concordant care. That's what the literature calls it. And there are studies that demonstrate that black providers, or rather black patients, have better outcomes when they are cared for by black providers in some contexts. Now, infant mortality is one of those contexts. We have to wait and see whether maternal mortality and morbidity is another context. In fact, there is data coming out of California demonstrating as much. So in discrete contexts, black providers can improve the outcomes of their black patients. And for that reason, many of the black patients that I Talked to, sought care from a black provider. But it's really important to understand that they knew that there were no guarantees. They knew that these black providers were not like unicorns or like magical creatures. Instead, they were just playing in statistics and likelihood. Their sense was that they were more likely to avoid the implicit biases that compromised care if they were being cared for by a black provider. They were more likely to have a provider who listened to them if they were cared for by a black provider. And so these were the chances that many black people were willing to take.

[Michelle Martin]

You compared care in public hospitals and elite private settings, and you found that in fact, even though the kind of actual logistics of getting care from one of these kind of busy public hospitals could be really draining, could be chaotic, could feel demeaning, you still found that some of the outcomes were actually better. Can you just say more about that?

[Kiara Bridges]

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that we believe that, well, resources, settings, the predominantly white settings, will improve our outcomes. That's people of color. And of course white folks believe that as well. But there's some data challenging that. It might seem like the hospital with all the bells and whistles and that has the green tea station and it smells like lemongrass and lavender when you walk into the waiting room. It might seem like that is the place where you're going to get the best quality health care. But meanwhile, the hospital down the street that cares for low income people, that cares for marginalized people whose very reason for existence is to care for the region's marginalized, that space might actually be better for you because its entire orientation is anti racist. Its entire orientation is to be conscious of racial disadvantage as well as all the other disadvantages. These are highly regulated spaces. These are spaces where providers don't have the discretion to not run a scan because of the Medicaid apparatus, because Medicaid says you have to do X, Y and z in order to receive Medicaid reimbursement. And so the highly regulated aspects of the care that you might receive at the under resourced place, as well as the fact that these places exist to care for the most marginalized, it might mean that you're better off as a black person going to these institutions that that many others avoid like the plague.

[Michelle Martin]

So before we let you go, you know, there was a viral moment in Washington recently in which Representative Summer Lee, a black Democratic congresswoman, confronted Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Over the administration's DEI cuts. Among others, she argued that the cuts interfered with important research into lowering the mortality rates for black women. And she asked, how can we solve the black maternal mortality crisis if we can't save, say, black? So NIH grants canceled or disrupted, research grants all over the country in certain institutions disrupted, canceled, terminated, et cetera, for a variety of reasons. What's an avenue to address these issues that you raise? I think the federal government is the primary funder of basic research. What can people do?

[Kiara Bridges]

Right? Yeah, I know. I wrote the last chapter in the book is the solutions chapter. I was writing it in January 2025, right when Trump assumes office for the second time. Right when it became just obvious that he was more organized than he was the first time around. That these campaign promises about attacking everything that is important to me, that they weren't just campaign promises. Instead they, they were going to be a program of action for the next four years. So what can we do in light of the fact that we can't even say race, certainly can't say black. We can count, we can count the needless deaths that are going to happen. We can count the preventable deaths that will inevitably occur through our steady determination not to pay attention to race. And we can learn, we can learn from what happens when an administration, when a government as powerful as the United States is, it's hell bent on ignoring what is undeniably true to me, which is that racism persists and that is killing us.

[Michelle Martin]

Professor Cara Bridges, thank you so much for talking with me.

[Kiara Bridges]

Thank you for having me.

[Bianna Golodryga]

And finally, this year's London Marathon was nothing short of a history making race. Kenya's Sebastian Sawhe became the first runner to compete a marathon in under two hours, clocking in at one hour, 59 minutes and 30 seconds. And Ethiopia's Tigis Assefa broke her own record in the women's race, finishing at 2:15:46. But it wasn't just the athletic achievements that caught the public's eye. Activist runner Jordan Adams gained attention after running the distance for Alzheimer's research wearing a heavy fridge on his back which symbolize the weight of living with the condition.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Just incredible.

[Bianna Golodryga]

Congratulations to everyone who crossed that finish line. And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching and goodbye

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

from New York, I'm Daniel Dae Kim.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

I'm going to South Korea to figure

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

out how this small nation conquered the world with its culture.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

Join me and meet the artists and creators behind the phenomenon.

[Rachel Goldberg Poland]

K Everything streaming May 9 on the CNN App.

[Sanam Vakil]

Influential journalist Kara Swisher is taking a

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

hard look at the longevity industry.

[Sanam Vakil]

There's so much bad information that the really good information gets drowned.

[Interviewer (possibly Bianna Golodryga or a CNN host)]

The new CNN Original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever now streaming on the CNN App.