Christiane Amanpour (3:05)

This week, Barghouti's son told the media that he's concerned for his father's life after hearing from Palestinian detainees that he had been beaten unconscious by Israeli prison guards. They deny that. The authorities deny that. Earlier, I spoke to Barghouti's son, Arab, who joined me from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. Arab Barghouti, welcome to our program.

Arab Barghouti (3:28)

Thank you so much for having me.

Christiane Amanpour (3:30)

So let me just start by asking you. We know that your father's name was on the list that Hamas gave for being released, even though he's not a member of Hamas. In fact, he opposes them, and the Israeli government refused. What is your feeling when you saw the others coming out, some of them hardened, convicted criminals?

Arab Barghouti (3:52)

I mean, it's mixed feelings. I think that I wouldn't be lying if I talk on behalf of my family that the last few days have been some of the heaviest in our lives. And we've been through a lot. We've been through my father's assassination attempts, my father's imprisonment, putting him in solitary confinement at the beginning of his imprisonment for three years, and so on. But these were some of the heaviest because first of all, we expected to be honest, and we were very positive that he would be with us by now. The second thing is the horrific and horrible stories that we've heard from the released detainees that were with him, around him in other cells in the same solitary confinement in Mado, and the torture that he' been and been through. It's unbelievable and really, really hard for us to listen to those stories.

Christiane Amanpour (4:51)

So, Arab, I do want to ask you about that, because there have been reports, as you say, you have talked about it. Some of the released detainees have talked about how he was, they say, beaten and knocked unconscious. In fact, in this process of being transferred from one prison to the next, do you know who might have done that, why that might have happened, why he was even being transferred?

Arab Barghouti (5:17)

So they transfer prisoners regularly from prison to prison. This happens every few months. And he's been in Ramon prison for a few months. And then they wanted to transfer him into Madido Prison. On the way, the Nahshon unit, which is responsible for transferring the detainees, and these known for being the most vicious and brutal and attacking the detainees. On the way, they stopped at Al Jalameh Prison, and eight different guards of that unit, they handcuffed him, they put him on the ground, they started beating him up, they started kicking him, and they focused on the head area, on the chest and on his legs. And we know all these stories from the detainees who, when he got to Megiddo prison, they said he came unconscious and he was bleeding and he was bruised, and they took him into the clinic of that prison, and it took him hours to regain consciousness and days and weeks to recover from that because there is no proper medical treatment. Why they do it, it's because they know they have the green light to do it. They've already killed more than 77 Palestinian detainees inside prison in the last two years. Unfortunately, there is no accountability whatsoever on them. And this is exactly why they keep doing it, because no one is stopping them.

Christiane Amanpour (6:50)

So, you know, the Israeli National Security Minister, Itamar Ben GVIR denies this totally. He said he denies the allegations, but added that he was, quote, proud that Barghouti's situation has changed radically during my tenure. He said playtime is over. Holiday camps are over. This is a video clip from when Ben Gvir visited Barghouti in prison. Let me just play these 15 seconds.

Colin Hanks (7:19)

You will not win. Whoever will mess with the people of.

Arab Barghouti (7:22)

Israel, whoever will murder our kids, whoever.

Colin Hanks (7:25)

Will murder women, we will erase them. You need to know that throughout history.

Christiane Amanpour (7:31)

Wow, that's actually the first time I've seen that video. I know it's been out, but number one, your father appears unrecognizable. And that is. I mean, that's harsh. When you saw that, what was your reaction to the words and the way your father looks?

Arab Barghouti (7:47)

I mean, I was shocked. I was shocked a lot because, you know, my father has been through a lot, and you can see that from his body and how he looks. He lost a lot of weight. He looked as if he aged, I think. You know, then when I processed that, I remembered my father's words when he used to always say that they will use the ugliest tactics, try and break me. And I think someone like him, who has been struggling for the cause for more than 50 years, will never be broken by someone like Ben Gvir. I think this video and this picture that you just saw will go down in history as a great representation and a perfect representation of the face of the Palestinian struggle, the embodiment of the Palestinian struggle in my father, and the face of the current and the reflection of the current Israeli government. This is a vicious government that is calling for the killing and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. And I think I'm sending this message to the Trump administration and to international and Western governments. What are you waiting for? This is a man who is my father, who has been calling for the two state solution, who has been calling for coexistence, who is the most popular Palestinian leader and he's been targeted. This is the fourth time that he gets assaulted by the Israeli Prison Authority under the supervision of Benkvir, who is bragging about that. What are we waiting for? This is a politician, a parliament member. Where is his protection? It's unbelievable to see all of this and only silence from Western governments on this.

Christiane Amanpour (9:23)

And, you know, introducing you, we actually have shown a number of people, especially senior Israelis, who've said that Marwan Barghouti should be released now. But your father was sentenced in 2004 to five life terms, plus 40 years for planning attacks that killed five civilians during the second intifada. He has obviously denied them. He refuses to recognizes the court's legitimacy. And I know that you all deny all this. However, as you said, he does remain the most popular leader. I just want to play this one clip of Marwan Barghouti from the documentary Tomorrow's Freedom a long time before. This picture of him we saw from this summer in his jail cell. Here's this clip.

Marina Abramovic (10:10)

Israel succeeded to arrest my body, but not my head and not my soul. They will not succeed to do that. They will not broke our will for independence and for freedom.

Christiane Amanpour (10:22)

Some people call him, you know, a resistance hero, a freedom fighter who could come out and including, as I said, some senior Israelis in the national security and political space. Why do you think that all these years in jail, 22 years and unable to see his family for a long time, unable to speak publicly to anybody. Why has he maintained this popularity amongst the Palestinian people? What do they see in him?

Arab Barghouti (10:51)

First of all, as I said, like my father embodies the Palestinian struggle. And this story is a great representation of the Palestinian struggle and what we've been through as a people. You're talking about someone who was put in prison the first time at the age of 15, and then at the age of 18, and then decade after decade going to prison in and out, because he was always calling for Palestinians rights. The second thing is that I think people see in him a unifying figure in Palestine. It's, you know, we need unity. And I think that unity in Palestine represents a positive force for stability and peace in the region. We can't get to any political settlement as Palestinians without our unity. And he's someone who has all the credibility to unite the Palestinian people. Including the prisoner's documents in 2006, when he brought every single faction, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and signed on the only and first and only until today document that was signed amongst all Palestinian factions that stated that Palestinian state will be built on the 67 borders. Resistance will be limited to within the 67 borders, and the targeting of civilians is forbidden. The third thing is that he's someone who's very progressive. He has a political vision that is inclusive of the whole of the Palestinian people. And that's what we need. We need credibility, we need trustworthy leadership. And that's why I think it's very, very important to have our elections as soon as we can and as soon as possible.

Christiane Amanpour (12:22)

So now that you're watching and essentially you say he's for a two state solution, something that certainly Benjamin Netanyahu and the Ben Gvirs of his coalition do not want, despite the Trump 20 point plan. So in a way, do you think he's being kept in precisely because he might be some kind of either transitional or figure who could unify all these disparate factions at this time for a political resolution that includes that two state solution?

Arab Barghouti (12:56)

100%? I think if you look at, you know, there has been 800 Palestinians freed detainees with life sentences since my father went to prison, 800. And most of them have way more complicated, according to the Israeli courts, of course, way more complicated security cases. And yet they keep him and they make sure that his name is dropped and they make sure that he's vetoed. It's not because he's never been a security threat. My father is a politician and he's never been. Even when you mentioned his court, his court was reviewed by many independent legal teams and they said that it would be impossible to say that this man has been given a fair trial. He never confessed to any of those allegations because he's a politician and he has nothing to do with the military work. And I think this is precisely why the Israeli government sees in him a political threat. They don't want coexistence. They don't want two state solution. And they say it. It's not my words, it's their words. And I think the international community has to make a decision. Either they agree and accept the Israeli dominance on the land, the apartheid regime and the slow and ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinian people, or they impose on the Israelis to accept sitting on the table and working for a political settlement. My father can do the latter. My father can bring and gather all the Palestinian people and he has the credibility and the track record to, you.

Christiane Amanpour (14:25)

Know, I tell you, from somebody who's covered a lot of these wars and then transitional justice and onto peace, we know that a lot of people with a lot of blood on their hands have come out with Northern Ireland, wherever you want to look, and become political actors to end these wars. So it would help Israel's security as well, according to the senior Israelis who say that, you know, he would be that kind of a unifying factor. But how do you think, have you ever sort of thought about how Marwan Barghouti would come out and even try governance? I mean, there's massive corruption. We know that has to be reformed and changed. There's so much disparate and disunity amongst the Palestinian factions. There's a complete breakdown in governments, even amongst, even in the recognized Palestinian Authority. Not to mention, you know, Hamas and his horrendous record in Gaza. Could he actually govern? Is that the kind of person your father is?

Arab Barghouti (15:28)

I think he is. If you go back, you need to remember that my father holds a PhD. He's an educator, he's someone who's very academic. I remember that he's been working in the last few years on a very comprehensive political vision. And my father takes his writings very seriously. He wrote 120 pages of, of his political vision about Palestine. And it focuses on reform, it focuses on having more women in power because he's a feminist and he's been working for women's rights and supporting my mother's work in that field for decades. He wants the youth participation in politics. He's someone who's very democratic. You know, when we were young, he used to, whenever we go to a restaurant or any place that we want to go to, my siblings and I would have to vote for the place that we want to go for. And we have to accept the voting to instill the democratic principles in us. This is the type of leader that he is. And yes, he is qualified to lead the Palestinian people. And that's why you will find in every single poll, he is by far the most popular Palestinian leader. Not because he's promised us with schools and buildings, but he knows how to lead and he's been in politics for decades now.

Christiane Amanpour (16:44)

Have you appealed to President Trump? I mean, President Trump is really right now focusing on this region and on so called phase two, which involves governance. Have you appealed to President Trump?

Arab Barghouti (16:56)

I mean, we're trying, we're trying our best to do so. And if I can send the message to President Trump, if he wants to end this conflict, as he said a few days ago, that said, you know, 3,000 years of conflict, I want to end that and so on, I think that my father represents reasonable leadership, someone who has as I said like a unified Palestinian political vision and can bring all Palestinians towards that vision that is based on coexistence. But he will never compromise on Palestinians rights of freedom, living with dignity and so on. So we are trying our best and I think that there is a great opportunity that international powers, including the US Administration can understand the importance of my father if they really are serious about ending this conflict once and for all.

Christiane Amanpour (17:46)

Arab Barghouti, thank you so much indeed. And you even and your family haven't seen him for years. So thank you very much. We'll be right back after this short break.

Claire Duffy (18:06)

I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service, billionaire investor and entrepreneur Frank McCourt.

Colin Hanks (18:14)

These big tech platforms are scraping and accumulating our data, hyper micro profiling us and now they're not just selling us.

Marina Abramovic (18:25)

Ads, but they're manipulating us.

Claire Duffy (18:27)

Listen to CNN's terms of service with me, Claire Duffy, wherever you get your podcasts.

Christiane Amanpour (18:40)

My next guest is calling her upcoming project Most Insane yet. And for Serbian artist Marina Abramovic, that is no mean feat. She has built her reputation on radical, thought provoking work which has seen her scream until she's hoarse, stand naked in public and stare into the eyes of strangers for hours at a time. Her new show, Balkan Erotic Epic, just launched in the uk. It's an exploration of sexuality and folklore through dance, music and songs. When we met in 2023, she told me that for her, art is about finding limits and then pushing right past them.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (19:19)

Marina Abramovic, welcome to the program. There is performance art and then there is you. Just a walk around this exhibition really makes me wonder, are there any limits that you will not go to? Your body is your tool and it is extraordinary what you do to it.

Marina Abramovic (19:38)

But, but this question I can answer with another question. Who create limits? Who create limits? I think we do, you know, and I think it's very important to when I get an idea that I am not interested in the idea I like, I'm interested in the idea I hate and I'm incredibly scared of because that means there is a problem that I have to solve and then I like to do it. So the only thing that I'm doing, I'm using my own body in order to stage that kind of fears in the front of the public, I'm going through. If I can go through, you can do. So.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (20:14)

The way you've performed going through is through a door where originally you and your lover at the time stood in a doorway naked. And the challenge Was for the visitors to walk through you. What fear were you addressing there? And what did you aim to accomplish?

Marina Abramovic (20:32)

No, first of all, you know, the main idea was there was a big performance festival in Italy at that time, very early in 1977. And we were thinking, what are we going to do this festival? But, you know, the idea was, if there's no artists, there will not be museums. So artists are the door of the museum. So we want to be, in very poetical way, the door of the museum. To do that, we have to rebuild the door smaller. So this really narrow. Actually entrance in those days was impossible in MoMA, was already not possible. In many other museums you have to have a second entrance that people have alternative. But this 1977, we had the radical way of doing stuff, which now because or political correctness and so on, we are not able to do anymore. So we have lots of restrictions of art today. And then the DA was we go through. And the fear was really to be naked and to have hundreds and hundreds of people passing so close, shutting your body and have this intimacy, not easy, not even mention stepping on your feet.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (21:36)

And did that happen?

Marina Abramovic (21:37)

Oh yes, many times.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (21:38)

And the people either intentionally or not touch you in areas that you didn't want.

Marina Abramovic (21:45)

In that particular work, there were people so intimidated, they would go very close, they would try to avoid eye contact and they would say scusa me in Italian, excuse me. Which was beside the point. We created the situation. There was one only man who had a small camera and just passed very fast and took photo of our genitals.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (22:05)

That is very weird. But here's a question, Marina, you say that in the intervening years you've had to provide alternatives, spaces for people who are uncomfortable experience that close intimacy. A is that A censorship and B self censorship and B, how do you react to society's. How could she do that? This is just so naked. This is so, you know, too revealing, et cetera.

Marina Abramovic (22:30)

If I will read the criticism from the 70s, I will never leave the house. I was completely crucified. My mother and father. First of all, when I was doing stuff like a Bernie Star, comedy star on the square in Belgrade, there was a question. Communist parties, what the hell education. I had professors was thinking that I should be put in mental hospital. Everybody was against it. I had to believe so much in this kind of form of art till now, that actually this form of art really, I think that's incredibly important because it's immaterial. It's time based. You have to be there to watch it and see It. And it's highly, highly emotional and. And it's the only way I can do it. What are you saying here, Marina? This is great. I made a skeleton exactly my size. And by lying, I'm lying and skeleton is breathing. I just want to know, you know, how that feel, this transition. Sufi said, life is a dream and death is waking up. I just want to know that moment because the moment that I want to die is without fear, without anger, and consciously three things. And that's something that you need to train during the life. It doesn't come just like that.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (23:47)

Death is a huge part of your life and your work. You're always thinking about death all the time. So how do you stay happy and positive?

Marina Abramovic (23:57)

I'm hilarious. In real life, I'm honestly ready to stand up comedy. I have so much I need to love because. Because work is so heavy.

Christiane Amanpour (24:08)

And this here is dramatic. What caused you to do this is your reflection on the Balkan Wars. And I covered the Bosnia war.

Marina Abramovic (24:15)

Yeah. You know, you can't clean the blood and I'm cleaning blood, which is American. But also create a metaphor that this can be in any war anywhere. Here, when we open the show, Palestinians, Israelis, Ukrainians, Russian, they're all here in this room.

Christiane Amanpour (24:33)

And the drama of the performance was you sitting on these bones, which are real cow bones, real meat, real blood, real blood.

Marina Abramovic (24:41)

Six days. I do this six hours a day, six hours, you know, counting.

Christiane Amanpour (24:46)

How did that affect you spiritually?

Marina Abramovic (24:49)

You know, I really am very proud of this piece, because I know this piece could be forever. Doesn't matter. It was my war that I. But after that, you can be used anywhere. And this is so important that artists should not create something which is temporary. You have to create something which is transitory that have transition to any war, anytime, any place.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (25:13)

So we're sitting in this room, which is very important because it has almost your signature piece of the Chinese, the Great Wall in China. And it was designed for you and your lover Ulay to walk from each end. That's a total of 5,000 plus kilometers.

Marina Abramovic (25:32)

You walked about 500ft.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (25:34)

Exactly. It took you what, three months or so to walk. What were you meant to do when you met and what did you actually do?

Marina Abramovic (25:43)

So this project start after we live with aborigines of Central Australia. One year in desert and we realized the time the astronauts, when they land on the moon, said the only two visible buildings made by hand, human hand, is the pyramids and Great Wall of China. And we had idea at that time in the desert, less war Great Wall of China. In eight years, we were writing to Chinese government letters. And eight years we were getting very friendly answers, but we didn't move anywhere. The idea was the walk. This Chinese war and we meet in the middle and we married. And eight years Chinese don't answer. So we finally found one man who was specialist on China politics. And we show these letters and he said. He started laughing. I said, what is so funny about. He said, you know, Chinese have 17 ways to say no. And in this eight years, they exercised all 17 ways. I mean, so we have to go through the government, the Dutch government and the Chinese government. And finally after eight years, we got permission to walk the great of China. But in that time, our relationship was ending. But as we never give up anything, we say, okay, now we're going to walk instead of marrying, we're going to say goodbye. And one of our friends, American said to us, why, you just need to make phone call. He missed the whole point.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (27:05)

But I mean, seriously, it must have been very painful, no? When you finally met, after all those years of work, after something that was meant to be a celebration of your love and your unity, actually, was the dissolution, was it emotional? Did you cry?

Marina Abramovic (27:19)

It was incredibly emotional. First emotional for few reasons, because before, if you lose love of your life, you still can go back on your own work. But in this time, I was 40. Exactly. And all our work for 12 years was signed with two names. So both of us didn't have any more our own work. So for me, it was just. I lost the love, but also lost the work. I was nowhere to come back. And this was incredibly depressing moment of my life.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (27:49)

And then a few years later, you went back to an amazing performance that.

Marina Abramovic (27:55)

Went viral around the world.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (27:56)

The Artist is present. It first showed at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, I think.

Christiane Amanpour (28:02)

And what happened?

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (28:04)

Because something like 1500 people came and sat next to you and tried to stare you out. But on one occasion, your former lover came.

Marina Abramovic (28:13)

Yes, but actually I invite him, as, you know, the guest of honor at that moment, with absolutely no idea he's going to ever sit with me. This was not even the question. So when he came and just appeared in front of me, you know, I never break the rules. I am like, I'm a soldier, I'm warrior, I do things absolutely as I decide. This was the only time I broke the rules, because in the front of me, it was a man I love so much. And in front of me, somebody. It was not the public, it was life itself. So I put My hand on the table and touched him and just cry. It was one of these moments that it was so intense. And it's so interesting how the young people become kind of viral everywhere because people realize real emotions. Because I have like flashback of 12 years, all the goods, all the bads, relations was easy. It was not easy. It was hell. It was wonderful. It was passionate. It was all at once.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (29:23)

And it was a rule that you broke, because I was one of them who came and sat in front of you. And I know people tried to make you laugh, try to make you break your gaze, try to make you not be as disciplined as you were. And I was staggered by how passive and unemotional but your eyes talked. So it was something for you to break that rule.

Marina Abramovic (29:45)

That was really high emotions. But also I had lots of emotion with the people sitting in front of me. Because I could see solitude, I could see pain, I could see unhappiness, I could see, you know, the happiness. I could see so many different emotions. But what is interesting about the sitting, just that moment and why so simple is when you're waiting first in the line for a long time, finally you come and sit in the front of me and you are watched by the people waiting. You watch my cameras, we watch my photographic, you know, photographer, and you watch by me. Basically, you are nowhere to escape accepting to yourself. And when that happened, you kind of show me the true self and I could see it and you can see yourself. And then all the people start crying. I mean, we have so much people crying. It was really very emotional moment. And you know, the Klaus Biesenberg, who's a curator of the show, he said to me when I gave him the idea, this is ridiculous. Nobody going to sit on this chair because it's New York. Nobody have time. This chair would be always empty. The chair was never empty.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (30:51)

And there were lines around the block.

Marina Abramovic (30:53)

And people sleeping outside. Last week, it was really something to remember.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (30:58)

So if that was kind of gentle and communicative. One of your exhibitions, which is here now, is a table of 72 objects that you say, do what you will with these objects. I am the.

Marina Abramovic (31:13)

The tool.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (31:13)

Do whatever you want to me. Tell me how that played out, because it turned out pretty violent at one point.

Marina Abramovic (31:20)

But, you know, I was 23 years old. I was so angry. I was so angry on the public not understanding what performance art is. And whatever I was doing, I was always judged. And I say, okay, what if I don't do absolutely nothing? I am the tool. I'm there with you and they are the objects and you do stuff. I'm not doing it. It was incredible to see that, because I done this in Naples and in Naples with the objects that for pleasure and for violence, including bullet and pistol. It was incredible. In the first. It was six hours. The first one, two hours, nothing really happened. Then they cut my. They give me rolls. Then they cut my shirt. Then they put the pins in the rose into my body. Then they cut a steel scarf and they suck my blood on my neck. Then they. Then they, you know, carry me around. There was so much the violence. Very interesting thing happened. Women didn't do anything. Women told men what to do. And women took. When I was crying, they would take handkerchief and wash my face with the tears.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (32:29)

How do you interpret that?

Marina Abramovic (32:31)

I don't. I have no question. I'm shocked, shocked. That's what happened. And then the moment after six hours, the gallery said to me, I finished because I was absolute statue. Put a hand like this, like this. Whatever you do, I am in this position. After the six hours, he says, over. I was full of blood, water, half naked. I was walking towards the public as me. They ran away, all of them. And then I came to the hotel and I looked myself in the mirror and I have just piece of white hair. Straight. Just white hair.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (33:08)

One night. Your hair turned white in one night.

Marina Abramovic (33:10)

One streak after this piece. This was a piece that I realized that I really could be killed. And somebody did point a loaded gun at you. Yes. And then another person came and took the gun throw out to the window. It was so much violence.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (33:25)

But at what point do the guards have a responsibility?

Marina Abramovic (33:27)

Marina, you could have.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (33:29)

Somebody could have not just nicked your neck, they could have got your jugular.

Marina Abramovic (33:34)

But now we talk about performance. When you go into state of performance, you're not you. You're not little Marina. Who can start thinking what all hell can happen? You're super, Marina. You're the higher form of yourself. And then everything's possible. It's almost sort of out of body experience.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (33:56)

Another performance that you did with Ole was so dramatic as well. And you explained to me what it's called. But essentially you're both standing, leaning. He's got the arrow, you've got the bow.

Marina Abramovic (34:09)

And one false move could have killed you.

Christiane Amanpour (34:13)

What was that about?

Marina Abramovic (34:14)

This was all about trust. We are born the same day, Ulay and me, which is the 13th of November. We are both Sagittarius, which is Sagittarius. The bow and arrow is a symbol of Sagittarius. And we decide to do this thing. And the one point in one interview when we split long time ago, they asked Ulay, but why Iroh is facing her and not you? And you know what he said? He said, but this is my heart too.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (34:41)

Had he just flinched a little bit and lost his grip, the arrow would have gone into your heart or somewhere.

Marina Abramovic (34:47)

But normally our performances are mostly very long. This was the shortest performance in my life. It's 4 minutes and 20 seconds. Fields. It was lifetime. Lifetime. Were you scared? Not when I'm doing it. My fear is always before, before I get into. Into the front of the public.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (35:09)

Is this about you and your fears and your extremes of boundaries, or is it about what you're trying to communicate with other people? What is your absolute motivation beyond taking things that scare you so much and.

Marina Abramovic (35:24)

Trying to calm down? To me, the most important is really to be example, that you can overcome the fear of pain, the fear of dying, the fear of suffering, especially emotional suffering that you can actually overcome. And I'm showing them in my own example. And then also not to be afraid of failure. You can fail, everything can go wrong. But failures are so important because failures is a main, main learning material. You fail, you stand up and do it again. And that's something that I need to show to the audience. It's all about how to learn to lift spirit up. It's so easy to put spirit down. It's so difficult to put it up, you know, to. You know, I was very, very. Actually, it's completely different subject. But during the Second World War, when everybody was painting atrocities and difficulties of the war and reflecting the situation, you know, Matisse, he was the only one who paint flowers entire four years of the war. And I start understanding only now with my 78 years old. Why is that? Because you need to live the spirit of humanity. You don't need to reflect what is already in front of you.

Interviewer with Marina Abramovic (36:40)

Well, that's a really good place to end because right now there's a lot of war, a lot of discord, a lot of inability to communicate. It's really important to hear you say that. Thank you, Marina Abramovic.

Marina Abramovic (36:53)

Thank you.

Christiane Amanpour (36:55)

We'll be right back after this short break.

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Christiane Amanpour (37:39)

And next up, he was known for his big smile and his even bigger heart. The actor John Candy was beloved for his roles in family favorites like Splash, Home Alone and Planes, Trains and Automobiles. His joy filled performances inspired generations of comedians and actors. And now a documentary. John Candy, I like me, is taking a look back at his legacy.

Colin Hanks (38:03)

I can't tell you what was right about John Candy or what was wrong, but he was my friend and I don't want to cry. But when I see him, when you see his face, I mean, who are you?

John Candy (clip) / Gus Polinski (clip) (38:20)

I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. Gus Polinski, Polka King of the Midwest.

Colin Hanks (38:25)

Del Griffith, Director of Sales, Shower Curtain.

Arab Barghouti (38:27)

Ring Division this is a lovable guy.

Colin Hanks (38:29)

This is a guy who the minute you see his face, you're going to smile.

Marina Abramovic (38:34)

Now.

Christiane Amanpour (38:34)

The film premiered last month at the Toronto International Film Festival and was directed by actor and filmmaker Colin Hanks. He sat down with Hari Srinivasan to discuss what drew him to Candy.

Hari Srinivasan (38:46)

Christiane, thanks. Colin Hanks, thanks so much for joining us. You just did a documentary on John Candy, a beloved comedian across North America, Canada and the United States. And you know, one of the first things you start out with is a line from Bill Murray, a friend of his, and he said, I wish I had some more bad things to say about him. But that's the problem when you talk about John, you know, in all the research that you did, I guess, what kind of man was John Candy?

Colin Hanks (39:12)

Well, he was everything you expected him to be, for sure. You know, there is so much about John that we celebrate the kind of person he was. He was very, very genuine, gregarious, outgoing, caring, all of those things, all of those elements that you wish John was. He was, he was the genuine article. But at the same time, when you're telling, you know, a story and you're trying to do a film about the guy, yeah, you gotta find some dirt, per se, you know, in, in a way. And that was, you know, sort of one of the challenges for us, you know, as, you know, as the people making the film is, you know, what is the story that we're telling, that inside story that was, you know, John's struggles.

Hari Srinivasan (39:58)

What was that inside story? What did you discover?

Colin Hanks (40:00)

Well, I was really shocked to find out about his childhood. You know, his father died on his fifth birthday and the amount of effect that that had on his life, I think can't be understated. And you Know, I don't necessarily mean in horribly dramatic ways. I'm talking about just essential life trauma, which everybody has, you know, big T or little T, doesn't matter. But all of the coping mechanisms that John had that kept him alive, that kept him, you know, that turned him into who he was, those were all very special and very unique and is what made John so, you know, kind of perfect in a way. But it also was the thing that was starting to not work for him, you know, as he got more and more famous and as he sort of progressed in his career. And he had just started to do that work when he passed away. So that all of that just seemed to be just so relatable. And that was the thing that I really wanted to explore.

Hari Srinivasan (41:11)

He got his start in. He's a Canadian. He was working on sctv. He was working in Toronto at Second City. And what were those kind of early years like? Because when you look at the alumni, so to speak, his cohort, the people that were working with him, they all, most of them turned out to be enormous stars in their own right.

Colin Hanks (41:32)

It is a special, special time and a special place. Toronto in the early 70s, without a doubt. There is just. There was something in the air. I don't know what it is. I'm sure Malcolm Gladwell could probably write a book about it, if he hasn't already. But there was just something about Toronto at that time and it was a supportive environment. You know, Andrea Martin speaks to it beautifully in the movie. It was a time and a place where everyone came together and was supportive. And I think that also, you know, sort of stems from this sort of ethos of improv and Second City, you know, it's not an individual achievement, it's a, it's a team achievement, you know. Yes. And, you know, so the fact that there were as many people, you know, in Second City and SCTV and, you know, the infamous Godspell production there in Toronto as well, I mean, it was just an all star team, but they became the all star team. I mean, that's the thing. Like, you got to keep in mind for me, I'm always thinking about, those are just young adults, they're all friends. Like, there's no guarantee that even one of them is going to become successful. And yet they all did. I mean, it's just, it's such, such a special time and special place.

Hari Srinivasan (42:53)

There was a period in Hollywood in the 80s and 90s where John Candy was in kind of every other movie. We had comedic hits like Stripes, Splash Planes, Trains and automobiles, Spaceballs, Uncle Buck, just to name a few.

John Candy (clip) / Gus Polinski (clip) (43:08)

A lot of people hate this hat. It angers a lot of people, just the sight of it. I'll tell you a story about that on the way to school.

Hari Srinivasan (43:16)

Give us a sense of what that period was like, how big John was.

Colin Hanks (43:20)

There was a period there where comedies just were king and there were ever. And they were everywhere and they were being made non stop. It was a boom, you know. And so John sort of found himself in the right place, the right time with the right attitude and, and he took advantage of that. Not only, you know, because, you know, he was savvy guy, but he was also funny, talented guy and people wanted that in, you know, in their films. So John found himself, you know, in demand and, you know, being the person that he was, he said yes to everything. And it didn't matter what the size was. You know, that's the other really amazing thing about John is, you know, he could be Uncle Buck, you know, he could be that lead actor that the name of the film, but he could also be the security guard in National Lampoon's Vacation, you know, or he could be the polka king in Home Alone. He just found a way to, you know, always be ready to work. And, you know, people loved him for it.

Hari Srinivasan (44:26)

One of the interviews that you do is your father, who worked with John Candy on Volunteers and Splash. And I wonder, did you ever hear descriptions of who this guy was? Did your dad ever talk about what's happening at the office, so to speak, and did that match what you learned in the documentary?

Colin Hanks (44:44)

Not so much talk about it. I mean, I was there. I mean, I have memories of going on the set of Splash and of Volunteers and so John was around. I didn't know him as, you know, John Candy, the actor, he was just John, but he was, he made me feel special even as, you know, a seven year old kid. He made me feel seen, he made me feel heard. Like there's just something about John and the way that he carried himself. He made everyone feel that way, regardless of what they did, regardless of how old they were.

Hari Srinivasan (45:23)

Catherine o' Hara said something in there that he had such a good sense of others and what they needed. And you know, there's this throughline that you see ever since kind of from his father's death at an early age all the way through later in his life, that he really was the guy who took care of everyone around him almost to his fault.

Colin Hanks (45:43)

Yeah. And that was actually one of the very first things I spoke about with with Chris Candy and Jennifer Candy, his two kids. They spoke with us for the film, and they were really instrumental in sort of helping me understand exactly who John was and what it was that he was struggling with. And one of the things that Chris said very, very early on was he took care of everyone but himself. And that really struck a chord with me, that feeling of. Of putting everyone else first and sort of putting himself at risk. You know, look, this is just small personality stuff, right? But this is also humanity. And that's the kind of stuff that I really like exploring. And that's really, to me, that's the meat of documentaries.

Hari Srinivasan (46:36)

And you have a ton of archival footage in there, and you have these sort of candid, these home videos. And I wonder, I mean, there were these moments where you just saw this character that we've seen, John Candy, but then you see this human being behind him that is actually visibly going through these struggles, whether they're on interviews where people are kind of asking him very rude questions about his weight or about his success, et cetera. And you kind of feel for the guy that's there, not the actor anymore.

Colin Hanks (47:07)

Yeah. And again, that's that humanity that, that. That I always want to try and present. You know, I don't know exactly why I just assumed that John would be the happy, go Lucky Gregorious, John Candy, mind for all, you know, his interviews, like, I. You just sort of assume that he was like that. But I was shocked to see how uncomfortable he was in interviews, how, you know, ill at ease he was. And I think ultimately it was because deep down he knew eventually they're going to be asking me about my weight. Eventually they're going to be asking me to talk about something that he didn't want to talk about, you know, not because, you know, for the only reason was it wasn't that, like, important to him. It was so important to everyone else. And so I think deep down he was just always waiting for that. That next question. And to be honest, I was incredibly shocked at how those questions were asked. And that, to me, really said a lot about the kind of things that John was struggling with at the time. Because it's not just that they're picking him apart, you know, and saying, you know, you're big and you're heavy and you're fat or any of those things, but the manner in which they did it, it's soul crushing, really, when you think about it. And it's stuff that wouldn't fly these days. I mean, people just wouldn't ask questions like that in that manner anymore.

Hari Srinivasan (48:38)

I was surprised when his son was talking about how his dad had sort of crippling self doubt and anxiety because again, like what he projects to the world is, oh, this gregarious, funny guy who must be so confident, lights up a room, et cetera, and you kind of catch these glimpses of. And tell us about these times that he was almost paralyzed.

Colin Hanks (48:59)

Yeah. And again, I think this speaks to one of the things that really attracted me to telling this story. John was the everyman. You know, there's not a person on earth that says, I don't like John Candy. You know, I mean, I would tell people I'm doing a documentary and they would instantly go, I love John Candy. There's this. But, you know, behind all of that, we all have our own struggles. And it turns out John's everyman sort of quality, he had the same struggles that we all have. And I thought that that was just so incredibly touching that I wanted to sort of celebrate that, you know, and show that, you know, all of that stuff's okay, you know, that we all struggle. Even the guys that, that, that look like they're, they don't have a care in the world.

Hari Srinivasan (49:50)

And it's also kind of important to remember the context that at the time of his death or just before, I mean, conversation about mental health just was not certainly what it is today. Right. And this idea of taking care of yourself or going to therapy, that. That didn't really. People didn't talk about that?

Colin Hanks (50:08)

No, not at all. And, and that, that re. When I was able to sort of pinpoint point that that was when I got really excited about the possibility of making this movie. There was no doubt that John's career and his personality was, you know, warranted a documentary. I understood that, but I, I needed something very, very specific to sort of get my interests because, you know, I was going to spend the next three years making the movie. But that idea, that very idea that you're talking about that, you know, mental health nowadays is open discussion. You know, every. The term mental health in and of itself is very, very common. It's understood now. The conversation is out in public and it doesn't have that same stigma. But you know, in the 90s, not so much and definitely not in the 60s when, you know, he's going through, you know, losing his father at a young age and all that stuff, it's just not, not discussed. And so when we would say, like, hey, did John ever talk with you about, you know, him going to therapy? People, People of that generation would go like, no, we just don't talk about that, you know. And I just found that to be such an interesting sort of generational, you know, shift that it was again, that that was something I was like, I really want to work, you know, with, with that.

Hari Srinivasan (51:28)

Like most people, my biggest introduction to him was the movie Planes, Trains and Automobiles. And while I thought that was a, you know, extraordinary acting on his part after watching your film and in the context of your film, the kind of monologue that he has in there where he says the name of the movie that you have, I like me, it was just so touching and gripping.

John Candy (clip) / Gus Polinski (clip) (51:52)

I could be a cold hearted cynic like you, but I don't like to hurt people's feelings. Well, you think what you want about me. I'm not changing. I like, I like me. My wife likes me, My customers like me because I'm the real article. What you see is what you get.

Hari Srinivasan (52:14)

All of a sudden I was seeing like, how much of this is John Candy, the human being, and how much of it is now the actor speaking. Because it was just his performance was so sincere.

Colin Hanks (52:25)

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, I really, you know, as someone who wears makeup and pretends to be other people, as the other half of my job to look at John's performances, knowing what I know now about his life and how he was able to inject parts of himself into every role, you know, not just in Planes, Trains and automobiles. As silly as it may sound, I can see it in, you know, a lot of his even broader stuff as well. But, you know, just the little things that John was able to put into each one of his performances, there's real soul there, there's real humanity there. And when you look at Planes, Trains and automobiles now, I don't think there's any other actor on earth that could have given that performance.

Hari Srinivasan (53:13)

The film is called John Candy. I like me director Colin Hanks. Thanks so much for joining us.

Colin Hanks (53:17)

Thank you so much for having me.

Christiane Amanpour (53:20)

That's it for now. Thank you for watching and goodbye from.

Marina Abramovic (53:22)

London.

Colin Hanks (53:41)

T. I got news for your ears. The podcast. I am your host, Michael Ian Black. He's never saying no, he didn't take the $50,000. He's just calling it he didn't take.

Christiane Amanpour (53:51)

A bribe because he has the audacity.

Colin Hanks (53:53)

To want to enforce the country's immigration laws. You said he didn't take a bribe, but I'm not sure you answered the question. Are you saying that he did not accept the $50,000. Thank you, George. JD's take is basically, you're jealous because he's so pretty. Have I got news for your ears. Releases new episodes every Wednesday. Don't miss an episode. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts.