← America First with Nicholas J. Fuentes Repost
America First with Nicholas J. Fuentes Repost
Catholic vs Protestant (w/Nick Fuentes) - NXR EP6
00:54:30
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- [00:00]
A
But when I think of America and its founding even before, you know, 1776, and, like, thinking about, you know, like, make America great again, when I think, like, let's go back, I'm like, you know, it's like, back to the founding. I'm like, oh, some of the founders were a little gay, but, you know, like, what about the 1600s? You know, like, that was, you know, let's get back to the thirteen colonies. Let's get back to some of this stuff. But there's no denying. I mean, you as a Catholic, you would say, yeah, America was founded as a Protestant nation, right? So that. That seems undeniable. But I think. I think what I would say to, you know, in response to what you were saying is that what seemed to be kind of the greatest strength of Protestantism early on in the settling and formation of America has now in many ways become a liability. And what I mean by that is, like, we forget, you know, we'll talk about, like, you know, the size of the country in terms of numerically, the people and all the immigrants. There's too many people, you know, like 100 billion have to go back. You know, we need import all of India just so we can deport them. And, you know, like, this many people have to go back. But take the people aside, America is a massive country just in terms of the land, like, the literal geographic size of the country. And so you think about settling a land mass of that size, and you think of, like, early on, it's like, yeah, it was. It was preachers doing, you know, horseback circuits, you know, go to, like, on the Lord's day, they would preach in, you know, 10 different towns, you know, and make their circuit and go around. And there was something like, necessary, not even ideal, but necessary with the Protestant ethos, whether the Protestant work ethic or the priesthood of all believers. And that it's not just the clergy elevated among, you know, above the plebs, but it's like everyone's a part of this project. And there's something also to the simplicity of Protestantism that at the founding, in the beginning was an asset, and I think an indispensable asset. Like, what does it take? Just in brass tacks, what does it take to do church? Well, it takes two or three gathered in my name. So if we have a town with more than two people, one biblically qualified man who knows the Bible and can preach, and he needs to come on a horse, and we just need to make sure we have water, bread, wine, a. A Bible and a Biblically qualified man and at least one other person. And we can do church, you know, like, we don't have to have the cathedral. We don't have to have the robes and the tassels and the incense and the, you know, these kinds of things. There's a, there's a simplicity. And when you're pioneers, you know what I mean? And it's this huge land mass and there's, you know, there's, there's, you know, Indians and then weather and all that, like all the elements that you're battling and you don't even know if you can get food to be able to say, like, we're going to go in the field and have church this Sunday, you know, it's almost like if it was going to be Christian at all, it almost had to be Protestantism. It almost had to. But now the asset, the advantage in many ways has become a liability in the sense that, all right, well, we're kind of settled now, right? We kind of like, we have roads, you know, we have buildings. We have people over three. We have too many people. We have, you know, over 300 million people. And now it's like what Americans brag about, kind of that, like politically it would be libertarianism. And the religious version is kind of the Protestant spirit. And not all denominations like Anglicans have hierarchy, right? In their ecclesiastical polity, there's order. But you look at America in the landscape, most Protestants are non denominational. I mean, isn't that like just perfect American? Like, I'm an American Christian. Okay, what denomination? None, you know, like, that's like, of course. Okay, okay, boomer, you know, or Baptist. I'm a Baptist. I have to own this. But here's the thing about Baptist is when it comes to polity governance, there's no hierarchy. Baptist, like one of the quintessential things, other than, of course, like credo baptism, you know, rather than paedo baptism, infant baptism. On the polity side, Baptist, we pride ourselves in local church autonomy. There's no pope here. In fact, there's not even a bishop, there's not even a presbyter. Nobody can tell us what to do. Nobody. You know. And you look at the landscape in America with Protestants, it's not Anglicans, it's not Episcopalians, and it's kind of their fault because they became super gay. That's on them. But it's mainly Baptist, Methodist and non denominational, and those are the big three. And I think that like that kind of polity, that could be atomistic, it could be Independent, right, Like where I, you know, because there is no representative that's going to be able to come from Massachusetts. And like we're on the other side of the country. We've got to be able to be self sufficient. Not just practically, physically, politically, but even religiously. We need to be able to do church and settle our disputes and preach the word, minister sacraments, all these kinds of things. And we got to do it at home. Nobody's coming, you know, we're isolated, you know, and so I, I think like it had to be Protestants and particularly Baptists and eventually that kind of devolving into non denominational guys early on. Now in many ways it's like we have to be. Now it's the opposite need. It's like we have to be organized. This egalitarian crap has to go away, it has to stop. We need hierarchy, we need authority, we need organization. And I've said this multiple times, I'll leave it here and go back to you. But people will be like, well, Joel, you didn't even go to seminary, which is true, you know, or like, you know, you're talking about Christian nationalism, you're talking about like monarchy and stuff. And isn't that hypocritical? And, and I just respond and say like, it, it, it is an apparent inconsistency, but it's not hypocritical. I am working for America to be the kind of nation, politically, culturally and religiously where I would not be allowed, I would not be allowed to have a YouTube channel with over a hundred thousand people. Like, like there's a certain point where it's like, okay, the peanut gallery just has to stop, right? We actually don't need all these self appointed experts, you know, religiously, politically, but we have them because that we kind of had to have them to begin with, with this massive project that we embarked on. And then we kind of had a second wave, like a resurgence of the Everyman, you know, starting a YouTube channel. And I'm listening to him instead of CNN, you know, or I'm listening to this doctor, you know, with Ivermectin, which I think is fantastic, rather than Faustu, because all the exper we did have when we finally built them in the nation, you know, we're a couple hundred years in. And so now we have like some hierarchy, we have institutions. They all turned out to be crooks, you know, and so now it's like back to like ground zero. But eventually, if we're going to mature as a people, you're going to have to have authority, you're going to have to have organization. You're going to have to. And Catholics have that. Now I'd like it to be Protestant, you know, of course I'm biased. There are some Protestant versions that have, I think of Anglicans, Baptists, don't really have that. Everybody has your own church. Do whatever you want. Nobody can. There's literally no formal, authoritative mechanism that can. So you can just have Pastor Bob, and he literally is the pope of these 100 people can say anything, do anything. There's no, there's no recourse. Right. You can't, you know, like, you can't do anything. And that kind of works when you're in the in vitro stage of a country, because that's kind of the in vitro stage of the, you know, ecclesiastical polity on the religious side of that country. That's just beginning. But that's going to eventually mature, I think it has to, into something more formal, the high church of like, that's a cathedral now.
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B
Right.
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A
And the pastor is not wearing flip flops, you know, and there's some kind of organization, some kind of system. And Catholics have always had that. I think it's possible with some sects of Protestantism, but it won't be what we have now. And I think it's inevitable. It's inevitable that it's going to have to evolve. What do you think?
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B
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that people always remind me, because I'm very patriotic, but I'm also Catholic. They say, well, America was founded as a Protestant country, so we have to respect that. We have to be Protestant forever. But I would say that, you know, and I kind of joke around when I say this, but I say, yeah, America was founded Protestant. Look at how that's going. It's not going super well. And I think that the problems with Protestantism reflect in the problems with America, which is a spirit of rebelliousness. It is, you know, and it's a big part of why. I mean, look, America was a product of the Enlightenment, the American Revolution, like the French Revolution. It's an inherently egalitarian revolution and it's slightly different. But in America, even the concept of a republic, this is controversial in the 18th century, that you have a republican idea of sovereignty instead of a monarchy. It's anti clerical, it's anti monarchical. It says, we're all citizens. No one can tell anyone what to do. The king can't tell us what to do. We, we're liberated. And liberation is not really a Christian word. Liberation, freedom, that sort of thing, at least in the American context, in the context of the Enlightenment or liberalism itself, it's not really a good thing.
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A
Biblically, it's bond, servants or slaves of Christ.
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B
Right.
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A
Freedom is freedom from sin because it's been replaced. Slavery to sin has been. Again, not whether, but which Christian faith is slavery. What makes it beautiful is no longer slaves to self or slaves to sin, but slaves to Christ. But it's not whether you'll be a slave. Whose slave will you be?
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B
Exactly right. Which master do you serve? And in America, from the very start, it's a rebellion. And it's a rebellion against different forms of hierarchy, but in particular against the king, against that whole arrangement. And what we've seen over the past 300 years, that is like the national spirit of America is rebelling against everything, is not a coincidence that we're the country of, like, rock and roll and mass democracy and like Americanism is now synonymous with no rules, no boundaries, you know, defying everything. And now our export is probably actually harmful, like what we're exporting to the country, and this is a critique which our adversaries have seized upon in China and in Russia, is that we're decadent. We're decadent, almost satanic, is what Putin says.
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A
And.
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B
And, you know, that's, I think, political. I wouldn't. When Putin says that, I do believe that's a form of propaganda, and that's targeted at a American conservative audience. But he's not wrong. In a certain sense.
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A
It's good propaganda.
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B
Yes. Because. Because there's a lot of truth in that. And so I think that in order to restore America, it does involve a restoration of. We're going to have to need to reverse that rebellion and submit on some level to some form of authority, moral authority, ecclesiastical authority. I think on some level, it's a mistake that America doesn't have any kind of king. There's no sort of repository institution that protects the traditions, the character, maybe the. The greater good of America in general. We sort of lack that. So I agree with you. I would disagree, though, that America even necessarily needed a Protestant phase, because you had Catholic missionaries that would go out to Japan or to Africa.
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A
See all the missions that were in California.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like, yeah.
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B
And they just brought the, you know, the cup. They. They brought their toolkit to administer the sacraments, and they laid down churches. And, you know, there are no doubt problems with Catholicism in, like, the Latin American countries. Like you said, they're very pagan, and they have remnants of paganism with that being said, could we not argue that like Mexico and some of these Latin American countries, they're more conservative.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Than America? And there's. It's a very complicated situation. There could be many reasons why. But I'm from Chicago and I go sometimes to the masses in Spanish and, and anyone who is in la, Chicago, a city with a lot of Hispanics, maybe here, maybe they'll tell you, you go to mass in an Hispanic community, and from morning until evening, it's packed. When I was living in la, when I was working for Kanye, I would go to Mass at 7 o' clock at night and it was packed. Like people were standing at 7 o', clock, but you'd also go in the morning and it's packed. And, and they are serious. They're crossing themselves all the time. Like they're true believers now in America. I think they're going to lose it. Like the next generation and the generation after that. They're going to lose their religion, they're going to apostatize because of the strength of our culture. But they're. They're coming from Mexico or they're coming from wherever with a very strong faith, very strong tradition. And I don't think that's a coincidence. I think that the Catholic Church has been able to preserve all those things in a way that in a rebellious, liberated country, Protestants have not been able to preserve that. So I think inherently for America to be repaired spiritually, we have to be repaired and go back home. And for me, that's Rome. You know, from my point of view, that's Rome. But I think even on some level we talking earlier, you recognize that maybe it's a more hierarchical version of Protestantism.
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A
I think it has to be.
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B
It needs to go back there.
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A
Yeah. The rebellious spirit. I think you put your finger right on the point. It has to go. We have to repent of our rebellion. We are a rebellious, individualistic people and we've got to stop that. And that rebellion has progressed. It's evolved, it's become worse. So, you know, there was a time where it's like, well, it's just against kings, and now it's kind of against any civil authority, you know, and, well, it's just against villages and feudal lord system. Well, now it's against even individual families. Right. I'm not, I'm not a member of my family. I'm an individual, you know, so it's like at this point, it's like rebellion all the way down to, you know, it's like now trying to Split the atom. So now it's literally even not just rebellion against mom and dad at the molecular level of a family, but even at the atomistic level, multiple personality disorder, or rejecting yourself through transgenderism. Like, like you're rebelling against yourself now. It's like, I mean, it's, it's almost comical if it wasn't so tragic. And so, yeah, we've got to repent of the rebellious spirit that is just innate with who America is and kind of was always there, you know, and it just, just kind of snowballed over time. There was a lot of great stuff. I love our country. I know you do too, but, but to pretend that our founding was perfect, to pretend that the, the bugs in the system weren't there from the beginning, I think is a bit naive. Like, I think we should have been more explicit in the founding documents. Yeah, we should just like King Jesus, name him, say his name. You know, I wish we would have. And now I understand the founders, I don't think they could even conceive of, you know, well, one day there'll be millions of Muslims, you know, something like, so I think I can see their reasoning for why, you know, like the First Amendment, like, people always say that, like, well, they can't, you know, you can't require religion and, and so you can set up a 90 foot tall, you know, statue outside of Houston. You know, that's like the Muslim sand demon, you know, because the First Amendment is like, well, Congress shall make like, I don't think we should have a federal church in America. But there's actually, I mean, even the 13 colonies, they all had state churches, so.
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B
Right.
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A
Technically, nothing constitutional against Texas having a state church, you know, and Pennsylvania having a state church. Even with the First Amendment, there's nothing against that. Congress can't do this. But, but my point is the fact that that's so easily misinterpreted now.
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B
Right.
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A
People don't even have the context for authorial intent. And they, they literally think like, what was in the mind of George Washington was carving out a space for voodoo. It's like, like that people literally think that.
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B
Right?
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A
That's what makes America so great. So, so even if it wasn't their intent, they left the door open for where we are today. And, and you can go back and, and, and argue till you're blue in the face, but this is what they meant. This is what they meant. At a certain level, though, you might just have to say, well, they were wrong. Yeah, they were wrong. And just because they were Wrong then doesn't mean we have to be wrong forever. We actually can. We. We love the founders in many ways, but also Benjamin Franklin was. He was a degenerate, you know, and Thomas Jefferson was ripping out, you know, pages of the Bible. Like, these guys were not perfect men.
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B
Right.
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C
If you had told Stephen, as stones.
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A
Were crushing his body, that he was.
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C
Dying for a shared Judeo Christian foundation.
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A
He would have called it blasphemy.
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C
The first martyr died proclaiming Christ alone. Not a hyphenated faith shared with those who killed the Lord Jesus and the.
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A
Prophets and who drove out the apostles.
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C
And as the apostle Paul declared, oppose all mankind. Learn why the church has always stood apart in the hyphenated heresy Judeo Christianity. Reclaim the faith of the martyrs and pick up your copy today@Amazon.com.
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B
And I love that because, you know, when you say that you're an American patriot or America first, we do sort of like deify the founding Fathers. And I see a lot of Protestants do this also in Washington, on the National Mall. They're literally like pagan gods. It's like statues of them, like Zeus. And it's literally designed to be like Zeus or like Apollo. And. And I love that because it's like, yeah, they were fallible. They were flawed. They actually were not God and they are not saints and they weren't perfect. And like you said, the seeds, the germ of it was kind of there from the beginning. And now we have this prospect kind of getting back to the orcs versus the elves and the hobbits, or the elves and the dwarves or all three or whatever. Now we have a situation where you could have, like in New York, a Muslim mayor of the city and, you know, talking about Jewish people running for president and a prospect of maybe a secular person. What even do they believe in? I mean, can a person even truly, that's. Like you said, secularism can be like a substitute for religion. But if you're not serving any God, maybe you're serving the devil.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And that's kind of who we might have running our country. And if you think of the leader of the country as the father of the nation, the country is a unit. It all proceeds from the top. So this has given way to huge opening for error and for problems. And on some level, if you just believe in Americanism or the American ideology, what even could you say against that? You know, could you say it would be arbitrary? Muslims should not be president. Jews should not be president? What about Senator? What about Supreme Court? Can they write the laws Enforce the laws, interpret the laws. Where does it begin, where does it end? And who's to say who's allowed and who isn't? And I think anyone on some level would recognize it's not American. It's also not right that we have, like, polytheistic gods. They're building giant statues of them all over our country. Are we going to live in a giant Diwali festival until the end of time? Like, no, that's not Western, it's not American, that's not Christian, it's not right. It's not the truth. And so there needs to be some recognition that that has to go in reverse and it has to go towards an explicit identification of America as a Christian nation. And I think the basics are, you know, getting back to the Catholic Protestant unity. We believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in his resurrection, we believe in the Gospels, that that's who we are and that's what our country's going to be. And if you don't like it, leave. And you can't have any authority over us. If you're not a Christian, then you're a guest. Exactly. And can have.
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A
Behave like one.
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B
Behave like one. And you have no authority over Christians, over a Christian country. If that is not your. If that's not your creed. And for a time, there might have even been a valid counter argument, maybe for the Jews, but now you have Israel. So if they want to say, maybe 100 years ago, if they wanted to say, well, what about us? Well, now there is an explicitly Jewish national estate in the Middle east alongside all the Muslim countries. So if you want Islam, if you want Hinduism, if you even want rabbinical Judaism, there are plenty of other countries.
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A
You have a place to go.
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B
Right. But this is a Christian nation. And so. And that is the basis of Christian action.
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A
It's almost like you're a Zionist, you want the Jews to go home. I want them to actually have a nation state and stay in it. No, I completely agree. Here's another thing. So you were talking about America in particular, and one of the arguments that Protestants would use. And I agree with it, but I think you gave a good counter. But one of the arguments is, well, but America was historically Protestant, so it's never allowed to be Catholic. Okay, Take America in particular aside and just thinking of nationalism on a global scale, like you're a nationalist, at least as far as it goes. I'm a nationalist. That's one of my problems with Catholicism. So we can get into the theology in a moment. Obviously, I would. Disagreements with Theological points primarily as it pertains to soteriology, salvation, but still speaking, like, politically and how religion works, you know, in tandem with national politics. Catholicism. So I believe the Christian religion is universal. Every tribe, tongue and nation. Right? Christianity is not a white religion. It's a human religion. It's for all peoples. And now I don't deny that over the last 1500 years, starting from Constantine, or at least the last millennia, starting with King Alfred, God has providentially worked in a unique way with Westerners, there's no doubt, which is incredible. And praise God for his grace. But I want as many people to be saved as possible. I'd also like for them to stay in their country, you know, but. But I'd like for them to be saved. I don't mind if they're my neighbors in heaven, because the FBI, you know, crime statistics in heaven will be zero. You know, there's no more sin. We'll be okay. So all that being said, I do want nationalism, though, and Catholicism, it's not just universal. Protestants, in our view of Christianity and salvation is universal. But. But there's a difference in a universal Christian religion and a globalism. And. And I think of Catholicism like it actually has a global headquarters where. Whereas Protestantism. Now I. I've already admitted it, it fractured too much. It's one thing to go down molecular, it's another to go down to atomistic. And, you know, and so Protestantism has become so fractured and isolated and individualistic that it really has become a rebellious spirit and a problem. But to go all the way, you know, to where it's. I mean, the vicar of Christ, there's like one dude and. And one headquarters, one. And it's not just a spiritual head. It's a geographic locale for all the world. So it's like. So when I think of nationalism, politically and culturally, and knowing that there's going to have to be the national religious piece, how can Catholicism be conducive with nationalism?
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B
I think that the way Catholics look at the nations, what GK Chesterton said is that the church is the mother of the nations, created the nations, because all the nations are under kings, Catholic kings. And I don't, at least in the 21st century, I don't hate the idea of the church having a global headquarters, because I like the idea that a head of state will listen to the advice of a spiritual leader, that there's someone kind of over and above and not representing.
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A
But wouldn't it be great if each nation had that spiritual leader in their Nation.
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B
No, because you know that like for example, with Russia and Ukraine, their Orthodox churches, which are national, have kind of become a party to their conflict. And that's one of the reasons the Russian Orthodox Church is persecuted in Ukraine, is because Ukraine sees it as an extension of the Russian state, as operatives of the Russian state. And I like the idea of the Pope as a unifying figure that can give advice to the heads of state as a spiritual father and be on some level neutral in a political sense. But I do agree that in recent. I'll give some concession here, which is that the Pope is clearly embraced a globalist ideology.
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A
I mean, I saw the tweets when they selected. Seeing some of his tweets on immigration, I was like, oh, this is not great, it's brutal. And then to follow it up with blessing blocks of ice. It's like, yeah, that was a hard day for. I felt for you. I was like, this is.
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B
It's been a tough 25 years on the planet or I guess ever since Pope Francis, maybe Benedict wasn't so bad, but, but clearly Pope Francis and now this new Pope, apparently also it is taking an anti national bent, ideologically critical of borders, the existence of borders, this kind of climate politics, which does kind of beg for a global political action.
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A
And so to me that seems like, oh, that's, that's just the consistent application of Catholicism.
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B
Right.
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A
I see those, I actually see those actions of like, this is the natural, the logical outflow. But, but you're saying, you know, to be fair to your argument, you're saying, no, I don't think that's inherent to Catholicism.
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B
No, I don't. I think that that just sort of goes with the territory. I think that the Catholic Church, the older generations are very liberal because the Catholic Church was animated in the last century by social justice, which had a different kind of flavor. And, you know, they were, you know, it's the love of the poor. It's this sort of thing, particularly among the Jesuits. And that's. We had was a Jesuit Pope for many years. I think that as time goes on, the newer generations of the clergy will reflect kind of the contemporary spiritual state of Catholics in reaction to feminism, postmodernism, nihilism. I think you're going to get maybe a different flavor down the road. And I would say maybe the benefit of being Catholic or the asterisk next to it is that the Pope is only infallible in very specific context. Right. Which has only been invoked twice on Marian dogmas, not on open borders. The way that Some Protestants critique it. You'd think that that's true. It's an infallible dogma like thou shalt not have borders, which is not really the case. But I will admit the current clergy is very liberal, and I do think that they've frequently crossed the line into pushing a globalist ideology, but I don't think that's inherent in the religion.
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A
I think you're right. Right. Before they selected the most recent Pope, I like to predict it's just fun. It's not even that. I think I'm particularly good at it. I have a decent batting average, but it's just fun, you know, and it takes some courage because, you know, when you're predicting something, you could be wrong, you know, so. But I, you know, people are like, we're going to get, you know, a based Pope. And, you know, he's going to. And I was like, ah, I think you're going to get a gay pope. And I think the reason why is because it wasn't just arbitrary. I had a reasoning behind it, because the Catholic Church is a massive institution, and institutions are always behind the people. Like, they move more slowly. And so that's. That's the strength, right? So that's the strength of Catholicism. So with, like, Protestants, it could divide and conquer. And like, I was arguing, I think that in many ways that was necessary, you know, in America's founding Catholic, but then it became a liability where we are today, Catholicism, kind of like the flip of that. It's, you know, it's cohesive, it's organized, it's unified. And, and the benefit of that is that you don't have a random coup in this church and this new person becomes a pastor and it's a chick with blue hair. Catholics can avoid that in a way that, sadly, some Protestants cannot. So it moves more slowly. That's the advantage. The disadvantage is that when things are already off the rails and you're not. So you slowly compromise, right? Whereas Protestants compromised.
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B
Fast, Right.
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A
Slowly compromised. Okay, That's a strength. The weakness, though, is like, okay, but once you're compromised to reform, it is also going to be slow. And so my prediction was like, well, look. Look at what's happening around the world. Hungary, you know, and Bukele with El Salvador. Like, I think we're going to get a base Catholic Pope. And I was like, no, the Catholic Church will probably be 20 years behind this transition, so we're actually probably going to experience the worst of the whole, you know, the. The of secularism coming to a head what we experience culturally and politically, you. You'll probably get the aftershock of that religious, you know, within the Catholics expression of that secularism 20 years after the fact, you know, because they'll still be catching up. And then in that generation will have to die, almost like Joshua, you know, or Moses with the Israelites wandering the desert. Because it's like we've got an entire generation that doesn't get, you know, they gotta die off before, you know, the next one gets to go in with Joshua and Caleb. And I think that that's. So I think you probably do get a based Catholic Pope after 20 years after politically and culturally, things have already kind of righted.
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B
Yeah. And. And I would say that to the credit of the Catholic Church, you're right, it's a very conservative institution. Not, not like ideologically, but like temperamentally. It's like you said, it's slow to change. And unfortunately, what's conservative now is like being a mainstream liberal or something like that. But I just lost my train of thought. What were we saying about.
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A
Well, just it changes slowly and maybe we'll get a conservative pope.
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B
Yes. To the credit of the Catholic Church, it will never be progressive, which is, and I think to like, to your point about the critique with Protestants, not something that you could really take for granted, which is to say that in the 21st century, in the current year, when they're outdoing themselves with how radical they can get with transgenderism, and it, it seems like the dominoes fall so quickly. It went from like, everybody seemed to sort of be against homosexuality, and now it's like, if you're not on board with like transgender kids, you know, you're a Nazi, you're a fascist. The Catholic Church, to its credit, is holding the line against all of it.
- [32:26]
A
Yeah.
- [32:27]
B
Against feminism, against every form contraceptives, you know, even. Even sodomy, like, you know, within marriage, within a heterosexual. It's very conservative in terms of the politics of sex, sexuality itself, the gender dynamics. It's conservative in the face of all of that stuff, which, you know, on the contrary, with a lot of Protestant sects, I mean, they are as liberal as it gets. And I recognize it's not all of them, but you've got Protestant churches with straight up blm, trans rainbow flags. And, you know, in this period of radical change, the Catholic Church seems to be one of the only things that stays the same. And, you know, and I understand that of course there are liberal priests and liberal bishops and, you know, even in Europe, they're. They're rebelling, they're pushing the envelope. They're trying to bless gay unions in opposition against Rome, in opposition against the church. But it's the exception, it's not the dogma. And you still feel something familiar when you go to a Catholic church. There's still the tradition, there's still the reverence. There's still some. Even in the most liberal Novus Ordo churches, there's still some passing resemblance to the Mass and the sacraments. They've been around for 2,000 years. And I know a lot of traditional Catholics would say. And they do, they say, oh, no, it's completely different. It could be a lot worse in the context of where the world is. So that is what I actually admire, is that it is maybe the most conservative institution in the world at this point.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah, that's admirable. So some of my reformed Protestant buddies and our listeners, at this point, maybe only half of our audience, but still a sizable portion, and talking to them about doing this project with you, they were sending me. Some of them were like, that's great. I'm glad that you're doing it. And then others were like, that's terrible. How could you? Why would you have. Nick? And so they're, you know, trying to dissuade me. And. And so a couple of them sent, like, a clip of you saying that, you know, that there is no salvation outside of the church, which I've heard. That's Catholic rhetoric. That's not novel or anything like that. But there's ways of interpreting, you know, what somebody means when they say that. So just point blank, I've got you on the air. Do all Protestants go to hell?
- [35:01]
B
Well, we don't know. That's really the Catholic answer. And what the Catholic Church reserves is the possibility that non Catholics will go to heaven. And there's actually rules for how this works, because the question is always, what about someone that's never heard of Catholicism, Right. And for those people that really have never had access to Christ, we say it's really more about conscience. And everyone has the moral law, the natural law written on their heart.
- [35:28]
A
And it's not Romans 1 and 2.
- [35:30]
B
Right. And then there are people where it's a question of, did they have the ability to look into Catholicism? Did they sort of refuse it? And so there's accommodations that are made.
- [35:41]
A
I refuse Nick.
- [35:43]
B
So. Well, in your case, you might be going to hell, but in the end, and I'll tell you, this is my position, which is very controversial in the Catholic Church. I tend to the belief that we should hope for a general salvation. Very controversial, you know, this universal salvation. And the Catholic we're not allowed to say that everyone is saved, right? We're allowed to hope that everyone is saved, that hell is empty or mostly empty. And so I definitely tend towards a more liberal interpretation, which is that more are saved than not saved.
- [36:22]
A
That's actually interesting because that's, that is my view now. I get there through a different route. But, you know, my view is I'm post millennial in my eschatology. So eschatology, just belief of the end times. I don't believe in a rapture. I'm not a dispensationalist. I'm not pre millennial. I'm not all millennial. I'm post millennial. And to put it in a nutshell, the easiest way I could say it is for most pre millennial guys, not so much the historic premillennial, but especially disp. Zionists, primo guys, they believe that Christ wins. Everybody believes Christ wins. To be fair and steel man the argument. It's not that they believe that Christ loses, they believe he wins, but they believe Christ wins despite a weak kind of shrinking remnant of a church, that the church will be saved, but saved by the bell. You know, it's like, Jesus, please don't tarry, come back quickly because everything's going to hell in a handbasket. But we, the few, the proud, the remnant remain. And, and we can't really do anything, you know, and we're certainly going to lose. But, but you know, we're gonna, by your grace, you're gonna sustain us. We'll make it all 12 rounds and we'll be saved by the bell and Christ will return and vanquish his enemies and, and you know, and save the church. I'm post millennial, so I believe Christ wins, but rather winning despite a losing church. I believe he wins through the church. That the church, the body of Christ here on earth will be progressively and gradually victorious throughout the actual temporal gospel age. Now, that doesn't mean just like the stock market, right? You look at it over 100 years, it goes up. That doesn't mean it goes up every day, you know. And so I'd say like we're in a hell of a dip, you know, Like I would say like we're like 350 year diff right now. So like, so, you know, it's like onward Christian soldier. And right now, you know, the Christian soldiers are getting their butts kicked, you know, like from the enlightenment, you could argue even earlier and things like that. Like, we've, we've, we've lost some ground, some serious ground. But I do believe, like, I mean, you look at the time of Christ, you look at where we are today, and there's no denying. Were there more disciples when Jesus was walking the earth or today? You know, like, were there? You know, I mean, you look at what God has done, and it's not just that he's saving people, you know, in the life to come in a spiritual, heavenly sense, but, but like the gospel has gone forth and is shaping the nations, not just saving individual people spiritually, but actually forming civilization. And all these developments. I mean, it was Christians, you know, who innovated and created and all these different things that Christ gets the glory for that. And so I actually do believe that not only that Christ wins because he saves a losing church when the bell rings in the final analysis, but Christ will win as head of the church, through his church, progressively and gradually with dips along the way throughout history, actually throughout history, that the mustard seed will grow into a great tree, you know, that the leaven will actually work through the whole batch of dough. There's so many parables where Jesus talks about this. And so like, even Protestants like Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon, like, and I've, people have called me a heretic for this. I'm like, and people who love Spurgeon, I'm like, I actually was quoting Spurgeon, Spurgeon. And they, you know, they have egg on their face. But Spurgeon famously believed that, that the crowds of heaven would, would dwarf and, and utterly eclipse the population of hell. And, and he argued it, and it's like, well, how. I mean, there's so many people that don't believe in Jesus. You know, just look at America. It's like right now, like, really, Joel, you think more people in America today are truly believe, born again Christians than not? And I would never even try to make that case. I think that's pretty, pretty silly. It definitely seems like genuine Christians are a minority, certainly in the West. But he argued Spurgeon, he talked about, what about all the babies that died in the womb? What about infants? What about. And then, you know, and then he argued further in saying, like, okay, so right now maybe hell is more populated than heaven, but let Christ cook. Let him cook. Look at the trajectory. Look at the way Christianity has shaped the world. Look at the way that it's permeated, like leaven the whole batch of dough. If this is what's happened in 2000 years. If Christ tarries, right, Because I'm not pre meal. I don't think he's coming back next Thursday. No man knows the day or the hour, but I think it may be a while. And I think even if it's not, we should have that mentality. Part of the reason that we're going to hell in a hand basket is because Christians with their eschatology thinking that Jesus is going to come back next week. We checked out. We checked out, you know, and it's like, no wonder we're losing. So you should live as though it's going to be a while till Christ returns, whether it is or it's not. And if I had to guess, I think it will be a while. Because I think that, I think that part of what God's doing in this cosmic battle against, you know, his arch, you know, enemy Satan is not just saving the church, but like Christ is going to utterly defeat, but not just defeat, but humiliate Satan. Like Colossians even says it, like through the cross, like he held the demonic spirits to open shame. It's not enough to just beat them. Our God is. He's masculine and he's kind of a chad like our God. Like he doesn't just defeat his enemies, he shames them, he humiliates them, he mops the floor with them. And it'd be one thing for like, for Christ to be Satan. It's another for him to take puny little guys like us and by the sanctifying power of his spirit over the gospel age through 2000 years and then maybe 3000 or 4000 to actually win the world throughout human history in this temporal age and not just in the 17th dimension, and just totally humiliate Satan and, and humiliate all these false gods that, you know, Islam and Judaism and Hindu it like, and it's like, oh no, like the Christian God, not only was he true, not only was it right, but it was also best. It was best. And so all that being said, I do think that there will be more in heaven than in hell, but I would argue it through that kind of path. That said, what do you think? I'll give it to you. But what do you think the average Protestant would say? And maybe more particularly, what do you think? I would say if, if you now, you know, just reverse the question, like, do I think all Catholics are going to hell?
- [42:45]
B
Well, I know Protestants really don't like the Catholic Church. So you see us as heretics. I would imagine you think we're going to hell.
- [42:53]
A
I see the Pope as a heretic. I see him as not the Antichrist, but an Antichrist. First, John says there are many Antichrists that have gone out into the world. And so, I mean, that's literally in the traditional Reformed confessions, you know, so it's like. It's kind of like part of being Reformed. At the same time, though, I know what time it is. I don't have to be such a. Such a purist that I'm, you know, like, just, they're the good autists, and then they're the insufferable ones. And I'd like to think I'm not one of the latter. So, yes, like, in keeping with Protestant, you know, historical Reformed theology, I would affirm that. But I'll say this. I think you'll like this. I do find it suspicious that the Reformers, of whom I love, Luther, Calvin, these guys, they're taking all these scriptures, like revelation about synagogues, of Satan and the Antichrist. Who is the Antichrist? The New Testament says, he who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Catholics don't deny that Jesus came in the flesh. Jews do. Why is it that Reformers, Protestant Reformers exegeted so many of these Scriptures from the Bible to apply to Catholics when the. The men who wrote them, the apostles, they were applying them to Jews.
- [44:10]
B
Right? Right.
- [44:11]
A
So the apostles, we know who they were talking about. We know who their enemy was. Not the Pope. It was, you know, their enemy was the Judaizers.
- [44:19]
B
Right.
- [44:19]
A
It was the Sanhedrin. It's very clear. Like, who's the synagogue of Satan, I wonder? No, it's literally a synagogue. That's, you know, like, you know, that's what they meant, you know. And then the Reformers are like, no, it was. They knew that, you know, a few centuries later, it would actually be, you know, Rome. And so I understand how exegesis works. I think that Scripture has one meaning but can have various applications. And so I don't think the I'm Reformed, so I, you know, shocker. I don't think they were wrong. That said, though, I think that there is still something for timeless truths and timely truths right now in this timely moment. To think that Catholics are, like, the predominant enemy of Protestants, I think is just retarded. I think it's retarded. It's like, dude, we've got way bigger fish to fry. So, all that being said, I do think that Catholicism contains a number of heresies, but I do think it's also important for Protestants and vice versa. For Catholics to distinguish, there's a difference in me dogging on Catholicism versus Catholics.
- [45:29]
B
Right.
- [45:29]
A
Catholics and Catholicism are two different things. I think that the average Catholic here in America is actually probably a great Christian. Now personally, I think it's because the average Catholic is a bad Catholic, which makes for a great Christian. So I love Catholics. But yes, I, I don't like Catholicism.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah, well, and I would say, I mean, we have a specific admonition according to the Pope, against what, what we would call religious indifferentism. And this idea that it's a battle against secularism. And what we really need is to rally around religion in general or even Christianity in general with Protestantism. Like, it's very clear from Catholic doctrine we need to be pro Catholic, we need to be according, because we view you guys as heretics. But I would agree with you that in this day and age, is not secularism and nihilism bigger force? Is that not what actually threatens our existence?
- [46:32]
A
Judaism? I mean, like, and people always say, well, like only 20% of, you know, Jews actually are even practicing Jews. Most of them are secular. And I would say that is Judaism.
- [46:42]
B
Right?
- [46:42]
A
Yeah, like, honestly, like. And beyond secularism, to put it a little bit more of a fine point, liberalism, I think is largely a Jewish product. It is like if I said liberalism, all these different implications. But if I, if it was liberalism was the car, I would say the engine is like the heartbeat of liberalism is egalitarianism. And egalitarianism, I do believe there's, there's, those dots are real easy to connect. That is the direct result of Judaism that sought to ultimately dismantle and bring down every form of hierarchy because of this self preserving. And I even get it, I actually get why you would do that. You don't have your own country, you're a minority everywhere you go, and so you're wanting to level the playing field. But I think that right now secularism is a big enemy, I think. Right, right. You know, the, the foundation of that is this classical liberalism and, and classical liberalism. The engine of that is egalitarianism and egalitarianism. I'm like, like, yeah, sure, a lot of white people participated in that. But I'm like, that's kind of Jewish.
- [47:49]
B
Well, and why do we have religious pluralism? Who pushed that so hard? It was a lot of Jewish activists because who would be against, let's say, prayer in schools in the 20th century? Who would be against stridently the mixing of church and state? It were, it was the Jews who were not Christians who did not support that for obvious reasons. That's why they made up the kind of Civil Rights Brigade, aclu, adl, these types that said it's actually a form of discrimination to have any kind of explicit Christian culture, even Christian laws, for that matter. So everywhere you look at where the Christian tradition or religion has been subverted or undermined or thrown off in America, it is typically these Jewish lawyers because they fall outside of that. And the germ of that goes all the way back to Baruch Spinoza in the 16th century. He's the one that introduced biblical criticism. And looking at the Bible not even as inspired by criticism. Right. As historical and ripping it apart and leading the radical Enlightenment in this idea that Christianity only serves to bolster the power of the monarchs. And it's almost like a Marxian interpretation of religion as a form of power. So it's been there from the beginning. They've been leading the charge against it. So I totally agree with that. It is fundamentally part. You know, and it's not to say that, of course, Protestants, they have been very liberal also, and, you know, and secular types have as well, but not.
- [49:28]
A
All of them, but the majority.
- [49:29]
B
Yeah. And it is the majority, but it's inherent in Judaism because of the, the tension between Christian and Jewish civilization. I mean, and it even extends into, I would say, communism. When you look at the organized Jewish community throughout European history, they hate the Catholic Church, they hate the Catholic kings, they hated the Czar of Russia. And that's because in every place they resided, the Catholic king tried to forcibly convert them or expelled them, or burned their Talmud or segregated them into the Pale of Settlement. And so everywhere you find rebellion, like against the Spanish king, the Jews were leading the charge. When you see the invasion of England, the Jews were backing William of Orange because they had been expelled from England for hundreds of years. When you see the Communist revolution in Russia, who goes into the Winter palace and executes the royal family, the Romanovs, it's these Jews that hated the Tsar, Alexander iii, Nicholas ii.
- [50:35]
A
They hate authority.
- [50:36]
B
Well, and they hate authority, but they also hate Christian authority because it marginalizes them and, and, and frequently abused them. That's fair. But they sought vengeance against them and undermined it. And, and so that's present everywhere in liberalism and communism, the Masonic, Illuminist, Enlightenment. It's there every step of the way in opposition to Christian Western civilization.
- [51:04]
A
I will say this. Protestants, modern Protestants have been just suckers for Zionism, which sucks. It's, you know, that's an L that I have to have to wear. But the original protester. You're not a huge fan, I'm sure, but Martin Luther, I mean, the last book he wrote.
- [51:24]
B
Yeah.
- [51:25]
A
Jews and Their Lies. Hashtag, we're so back. That was pretty. He was so real for that.
- [51:32]
B
Yeah.
- [51:32]
A
Any final thoughts on this episode?
- [51:35]
B
I would just say, you know, I know that Catholics are going to watch this and they're going to say, you know, Nick didn't go hard enough.
- [51:43]
A
He was too nice.
- [51:44]
B
Right.
- [51:45]
A
Hit me at the end. I'm.
- [51:46]
B
No. And I was back. But I was going to say. And vice versa. But my. My point is to say to Catholics and Protestants and even the orthod bros, anybody, you know, all Christians for me, if you, like you said, if you believe that Christ was a real person, took flesh, died on the cross, rose again for our salvation, I consider you a brother. I consider you a Christian brother and a friend. And I think we have a lot more in common in the battle than we do, you know, that we disagree on. So I really believe that we have these disagreements and they're fruitful and it's going to be. There's a dialectic, there's a conversation to be had. But I think politically, we really need to unite and be on the same page. Because 100% all it takes is you visit the DNC and you see the freak show that's going on, or even, honestly, the modern GOP when they're doing the call to Waheguru and all this Hindu stuff. It's like, we really got to stick together. So I'm really pushing a message of unity.
- [52:47]
A
Good. Agreed. All right, well, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.
- [52:51]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [52:52]
C
For those of you who may not be aware, I have the immense privilege of also serving as president for a sister organization to NXR Studios, which is a non profit, 501c3 Christian organization called Right Response Ministries. Our focus with this organization is to train and equip pastors and congregants in the Protestant church, primarily the Evangelical church right here in America. What are we trying to train them in? Well, let's just say we're trying to help evangelical Protestant churches in America to stop being so insufferable, to stop being Zionist shills. To be engaged, not apathetic, but activated. The realm of politics and culture, the things that you've been hearing in this series that myself and Nick Fuentes are talking about, we want to see Protestant churches right here in America apply these things to get in the game, to win our country back. We want to see Evangelicals and Protestants in America actually be America first. Not serving a foreign country at the expense of our own interest, but serving Christ and serving Americans. If you'd like to support us in this mission, we could greatly use your help. You can give a tax deductible donation by by simply going to wr. Donate again. That's right. Response ministries.com.
- [54:29]
A
Donate God bless.