E (3:39)

We could see clearly on film the nose cones separate, and then we saw the dummy warhead. And suddenly into that frame, an object flew in, chasing the warhead and so on at the same speed.

D (3:52)

Didn't they delete your records from the government as well? People denied that you worked at Vandenberg. Is that. Is that right?

E (3:59)

They denied there was ever a Robert Jacobs in the Air Force.

A (4:02)

And between Bob Jacobs and Richard Barth, it looks like while we were testing nuclear missiles in September of 1964 on Vandenberg Air Force Base, something else was testing missile defense and deterrence. This interview raises some very uncomfortable questions about access, surveillance, and intent on our most advanced weapons capabilities. And it leaves us with possibilities that are far more strange and destabilizing than are we alone? This episode isn't about believing. It's about listening carefully. Because whatever is going on at our nuclear bases doesn't seem random and it doesn't seem finished with us.

F (4:42)

Between 2003 and 2005, five UAP incidents occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base.

A (4:49)

So without further ado, please enjoy this courageous testimony from this week's American Alchemist, Richard Barth.

D (5:00)

I'm here with Richard Barth, and this is an honor. I really appreciate you driving to LA to speak with me. Robert Hastings is one of my favorite journalists in the UFO space. He's written an amazing book called UFOs and Nukes. And he is the premier chronicler of all of these amazing veterans who were stationed at nuclear bases across the United States, often with, you know, pretty high clearances experiencing Tic TAC saucers, orbs, UFOs all over these bases. And sometimes nuclear missiles get shut down. All sorts of anomalies occur on the bases. And in a few cases like yours, you actually experience a close encounter of the third kind where you see beings and you experience communication with those beings. And so it's an honor to speak with you, and I really appreciate you sharing your story. What made you decide to come out now?

B (5:58)

I was listening to coast to coast one night and it happened to be dropped Hastings, although at the time I didn't know, but something just compelled me to call in. He was talking about USO's nukes. And I had this experience that I had pretty much kept to myself for quite a while. And it just seemed that, you know, the guy seemed so credible that maybe he might be interested in my particular story. So I called up and I was very fortunate. I got right on. I explained to the call person that monitors the call, and he put me right in. And we got through about half my story and then we got cut off somehow. Last question he asked me, was I aware of any lost time and.

D (6:44)

Lost time?

B (6:45)

Yeah. He wanted to know if I had any lost time during the event. And I was going to answer him and everything just went blank. There's no response. And I didn't know how to get back on, so I kind of dropped it. But it brought it to the forefront of, you know, it's just a credibility of Bob Hanson that really triggered it.

D (7:06)

So you called into coast to coast and you got through a lot of your story. Then the call dropped. But that brought that to the fore and to, To. To the mind of, Of Robert Hastings, who wanted to follow up on it.

B (7:18)

Actually, before that, I had read Whitney Strieber's book, and it seemed credible to me, but it also made my experience seem more credible to myself. You got to kind of understand that when something like this happens to you, you question yourself, was this real or was this something that, you know, I imagined or. It's so much part of you that you, you accepted it as real, but you still question it.

D (7:52)

How did you end up at Vandenberg Air force base in 1964?

B (7:56)

Okay, I wasn't doing well in college at the time, and so I decided I was going to join the Air Force and I went to the recruiter and I had actually, I'd been a pre med major, and so I asked about going into medical corps, and he says, well, you got two years of college. He said, would you consider being a navigator? And I said, I love flying, but I, you know, I need four years of college to get commissioned or do anything like that. So he had asked me, would I be interested that they had a navigation course that had opened up, that the requirements were that you can get in with two years of college. And I said, yeah, I love flying. I'd love to fly if I could fly. So I said, why don't you go down, take the test and see how you do? They sent me down to LA and I passed that. So I said, well, you're in, all we got to do is find you a class. So I waited about three or four months for a class to open up for me to get into. And I was doing quite well until I got to celestial navigation. And I didn't know it at the time, but I had like dyslexia. And what was making things bad for me was not on the academics, which I was high on, but I would transpose my numbers, especially when I got under pressure. And a 1, 2, 3123 would become a 132 which is a significant navigation error. Well, you do three practice missions, then a test mission and I failed the first test mission and then they will send you again and that allow you to do another test mission and I failed that one. And so I was basically washed out of the class when I had joined. One of the conditions of joining was that you can went in under selective service requirement, which was basically two years with some reserve time to follow. And if you didn't pass a class you would go on that reserve status or and just finish out your two years and go on reserve status. Otherwise if you passed, you would be commissioned, you would sign up for an additional four years and you would actively be in the Air Force as a navigator. Well, I just opted, I was going to get out. So that left, well, I've got 13 months left of my selected service requirement. And so they didn't want to put me in a position that required a lot of training. And so guards don't require a lot of training. And I can pick something that was relatively close to home. I lived in Los Angeles. Vandenberg Air Force Base was up the coast above Santa Barbara, about a four hour drive. And that seemed, well, my off time. I'd go home and be with my friends and family. So that seemed okay with me. I thought I can, I can deal with it.

D (11:00)

So you were a missile security guard or what? What's the exact title anyhow?

B (11:05)

I'm listed as air policeman, but I was assigned to the 4392nd Combat Defense Squadron. And we were essentially guards. We didn't wear the blue uniforms, we were fatigues with the enemy, carried a 38 pistol and we just basically stood on post all day and there wasn't much training involved other than weapons training.

D (11:29)

What are the types of things that you guarded on the base?

B (11:32)

They had the missile maintenance where they assembled the missiles Themselves that was a large hangar. The missiles would be on their sides. The stages would be mated with each other. Electronics guidance would be in and then they would take them out to the actual silo or launch sites where they, you know, fueled them and fired him. There were, you'd guard like a crypto room where crypto cryptographic information was came in, particularly at night when nobody was there. There were locked rooms and. But they wanted to guard on there and frankly we guarded things that didn't need guarding. A lot of these missiles, Vandenberg, a lot of these missiles were set up by the manufacturer. Like Boeing would do the Minuteman, Douglas would do the Thor and Lockheed would do the Agena stage. Convair would do the Atlas missiles. And those were the four missiles. We had most of the three missiles that Thor the minute that Thor, the Atlas and the were obsolete basically. But they were great for launching satellites. And you can get. The Thor was a lightweight missile, intermediate range, actually not icbm. And it was good for setting spy satellites because it can get them into the low altitude that they wanted. And 100, 150 miles, that's where you took your pictures from. If you had something heavier, you'd put it on an Atlas. The Thor was very similar to the Redstone that they launched Al Shepard on. It was you know, just for to loop them up into space and come down. But then they moved for the, for the remainder of the flights they moved to the Atlas missile which was a two stage missile which was much more powerful and can get the orbits much higher than that. And then later they did the Titan missile which is an icbm, liquid fueled. And a good thing about the Titan is the Atlas missile required pumping in oxygen and hydrogen just prior to launch, which took time so that you had to do an immediate launch. You could, you'd have to 15, 20 minutes just fueling the missile before you launched it. The Titan fuels didn't, were not refrigerated fuels. And that missile could sit in the silo fueled and ready to go and could be launched immediately. So the Titan was in advance over the Atlas. Plus it was a much more powerful missile and could carry much larger warheads. We call them reentry vehicles, but they were basically warheads of the atomic warhead. One thing about Vandenberg Air Force Base is that it was not a primary nuclear base. And the reason was it was too easy to take out. It was right on the ocean. You can drop a bomb, atomic bomb right in the ocean, right next to it. You just had a potidal Wave or a tsunami wipe out the base and the base becomes useless. So it was too easy to target for nuclear. But we were right on the ocean and we had the Pacific test range and it was a great place to fire missiles down over the ocean downrange because they were, see like the Minutemen. The Minutemen were all stationed inland, far inland in Montana, Moffat or Air Force Base or Malstrom Air Force Base and spread out quite apart because they were difficult targets that way. They were spread out and they were well inland. Trouble is, you couldn't launch a missile from there because there's always a possibility that missile would land on, you know, land on somebody's cow or even a city, even worse. But so we could, but we could launch over from Vandenberg Air Force Base and then we could bring the crew out for the launch and they can actually launch a missile. But there's other things that could be tested like the amount of, you know, those, these were solid fuel, Minutemen with solid fuel. And that fuel would sit there for a couple of years. Well, what was the integrity of the fuel after a couple of years? You could test that. Because all missiles launch are launched on inertial guidance. In other words, once you send them off, they're on their own, the course is set. And the main reason for that is you can send a missile to the moon and you can make mid course changes, but you don't want to do that because the enemy can make mid course changes and get your missile off target. So once the missile was programmed to a certain trajectory and once it was fired, it was on its own. So if the fuel was not, the integrity of the fuel was degraded, it might not get to the target or as close to the target as you wanted to. So that was one of the things we wanted to test and also give the crew a chance to fire the missile.

D (16:57)

Do you, I mean clearly you are right now displaying extensive knowledge of all of these missile systems in a way that to me, unless you, you know, went back and read a bunch of textbooks before this interview, I think it shows that you were at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But for the hardcore skeptics in the audience, you can provide your DD2, your DD2414 service records, you can give them to me if possible. You have photos of them and stuff.

B (17:24)

I gave it to Robert, Robert Hastings, by Robert Hastings. And that was one thing. You know, he's very, very thorough. When you read his book, he each case is well documented, is thorough. When he vets, he vets Each person that he interviews, he's extremely thorough and extremely. And so he's extremely.

D (17:43)

And he called three separate friends of yours. Right. To corroborate that. You told them the same details that you told him.

B (17:51)

His interest was that this is not something I had meet up recently when, you know, with the new. All this stuff coming out and just wanted to get on the bandwagon.

D (18:00)

And you've made no money off of this story?

B (18:02)

No, I have no intention. In fact, when I wrote originally, when I did an email to Robert Salas, which was the first one I tried to contact, the reason being is that my experience was two years prior to Robert Salas. When I heard him interviewed, I thought he might be interested.

D (18:21)

Well, the really interesting thing, Robert Sallis, that, that's interesting. Did he back to you or not right away?

B (18:28)

He did and then he didn't follow up. But when I wrote him, I said, I'm not interested in money, I'm not interested in writing a book. But I think there's a relationship between my experience and your experience, in other words.

D (18:42)

Well, I want to get into that relationship after we get into the core details of your experience. But I think even more relevant than Bob Salas, who had an extremely interesting experience with 10 missiles shutting down at Malmstrong Air Force Base. He's at Austin Flight launch Center underneath underground. And this red glowing object is hovering above ground and seems to. That seems to correlate with these 10 missiles going offline. Strategic Air Command wrote up a whole write up saying we're, you know, baffled and confused as to this happening around. I think the Echo flight incident, which was eight days before. And then a targeting officer, Bob Jameson, who is a colleague of Sallust's, went in to check as to, you know, why. Why did these 10 missiles go down?

B (19:29)

Is it possible they just malfunctioned? That doesn't happen. Very rarely does a missile malfunction.

G (19:35)

And I don't think any much more.

E (19:38)

Rare would be 2 at the same.

B (19:40)

Time, but never 10.

D (19:42)

And so you had all this interesting kind of activity going on at Malmstrom Air Force Base. But that was 1967.

B (19:48)

Yeah.

D (19:48)

What I find interesting about your experience is that was, what was it? September. September 64, 1964 at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Did you know that Bob Jacobs, who was a photo instrumentation specialist also stationed there at the same time as you, has an honor?

B (20:05)

Oh, no, but I did not then.

D (20:07)

Yeah, you didn't then. So that's amazing because this guy was basically, they were testing an Atlas missile with a dummy warhead. And he was basically stationed at Big Sur. And he was supposed to kind of, you know, telescope the object and photograph it, get video.

B (20:26)

They wanted him to mess up, film the missile from the side rather than straight on. Because you go to Vandermeer and you're just watching it go straight on. He can watch the projectile from the side.

E (20:39)

Major Manson called, and he said, Tomorrow morning at 0600, get ready, because we're launching an Atlas missile, and we want you to photograph that with the big BU telescope.

B (20:50)

I went, okay.

E (20:51)

So at 0600, we were up and ready to go there, and an Atlas missile popped up through the ground fog that was covering the whole coastline all the way down there. It was beautiful. We took the film back to Vandenberg where it was processed. And a day later, I got a call from Major Mansman. He said, come up to my office. So I went to his office, and he said there was a movie screen set up and a 16mm projector. And there was Major Mansman. And as I recall, two guys in gray suits. On the screen was the film we had shot. We could see clearly on film the nose cones separate. And then we saw the dummy warhead. And suddenly into that frame, an object flew in, chasing the warhead and so on at the same speed. It's going between 6 and 8,000 miles an hour at that point. And it fired a beam of light at the dummy warhead. The object flew up like this, shot another beam of light at the dummy warhead, went around like this, shot another beam of light at it, went down like this, shot a beam of light like this, and then flew out the same way to come in, at which time the dummy warhead did this and fell out of the frame. The lights came on. And Major Mansman said to me, were you guys screwing around up there? And I said, no, sir. And he said, what was that? And I said, it looks like we got a ufo. And he said, lieutenant Jacobs, you are never to speak. Speak of this again. It never happened.

D (22:39)

And then these two guys in tweed jackets in the back room, while he's watching, they basically go up to him. They say, you know, you are now sworn to secrecy, and if you say anything about this, you're going to be in real trouble. And then they proceed to. Because he tells his story later, they.

A (22:57)

Delete his records from the government.

D (23:00)

Didn't they delete your records from the government as well? People denied that you worked at Vandenberg. Is that. Is that right?

E (23:07)

They denied there Was ever a Robert Jacobs in the Air Force? Then in another inquiry, they denied there was ever a Robert Jacobs at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Then they denied there was ever anybody named Robert Jacobs in charge of the 1369th Photographic Union Division that I ran.

D (23:27)

And he managed over 100 people, so. So it's pretty easy to corroborate.

E (23:32)

Yeah, I had 134 guys working for me and I had two friends from college who were my commanding people. And I also have something called a DD14. I have records here. My officer efficiency reports are in there. I can't get rid of stuff. My wife keeps saying, clear that out of your file cabinet over there, Bob. I go, no, I might use it. And sure enough, it's turned out to be valuable. Oh yeah. In defending myself against the infamy of the CIA. But we didn't have a launch on that date. There was no Atlas launch that day. Well, goddamn well there was. Because Robert found the. Found the files from Vanderburg using that particular, that particular launch in detail.

D (24:14)

So they did not. They also scrubbed the launch itself from the records.

E (24:18)

Correct. Never happened.

D (24:19)

Wow.

E (24:19)

And it never happened.

D (24:21)

And your mailbox was blown up as well, Right?

E (24:24)

My wife and I had been out to a movie. We came back from movie about 10 o' clock at night and there was a message on my answering machine and.

B (24:33)

It said.

E (24:38)

Fireworks in your mailbox at night. Oh, what a beautiful sight. You're going down, motherfucker. And my mailbox blew up. I live on a farm out of rural mailbox. And sudden there was an explosion. My mailbox blew up. I took that quite seriously. I bought an ammunition for my gun.

D (24:54)

And then Florenz Mansman, his major, his superior, eventually is tracked down by I think Bob Hastings and some other researchers and in the 90s admits that he did manage Bob Jacobs. So it's this crazy story and that.

A (25:08)

Happened at the same time you had an experience, right?

B (25:11)

Bob Hastings put me in touch with Bob Jacobs.

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D (26:04)

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D (26:33)

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B (26:37)

It did occur at the same time. So he gave me Bob Jacobs phone number. I called Bob Jacobs, we discussed this. I had additional experience when I was at Vandenberg and I was, I was able to watch him in at Met or not Minuteman. I was able to watch a Atlas launched and it had gone up. Now I'm underneath the missile at this time at Vandenberg rather than from the side and I'm watching this missile in a stage. But before it staged. That means his first stage dropped off, second stage took off. This yellow orb came over and tracked the missile. It didn't go around it or anything. It tracked it, then it staged and then it's continued tracking. Which meant it wasn't a fuel leak. Besides it was a fuel leak. It might have wow. Blown up. And I had relayed that. And then Bob Jacobs thought maybe I had witnessed what he had witnessed. But the timing was not right. First of all, he had take when he saw the missile launch. He saw it come up through the clouds. Well, this was a cloudless day. When I saw what I saw. He saw his bad experience in September. It was closer to May when I saw this happen. Now, you know, I don't know. I had asked one of the sergeant down on the launch site the next day what happened with that missile. And he just told me if I was wise I would keep my mouth shut.

D (28:08)

Wow.

B (28:09)

And I did just that. I kept my mouth shut.

D (28:11)

So you had already seen essentially a ufo, which I think at the time they used to call tag alongs because they would often track missile trajectories.

B (28:19)

That's what he did. It stayed right with the missile.

D (28:22)

You know, that's amazing. And in 1963 we have another example of an F8 Atlas missile being tracked by this sort of tag along.

A (28:30)

And it's even in the report.

D (28:32)

And this was, I believe a month or two before the Bluegill triple prime test. In I think September of 1963.

B (28:40)

The sergeant told me if I was wise, I keep my mouth shut. And I figured I'm wise, I'm going to keep my mouth shut because I didn't want to get into any of the problems that, you know, I was getting out soon in May, I would be going to get out in June. I just wanted to get out and leave it alone.

D (28:59)

So, but that's fascinating because In May of 1964 you see this sort of tag along UFO. In September of 1964, Bob Jacobs, unbeknownst to you during this test on video, sees a UFO shoot a dummy nuclear warhead out of the sky. And then I want to get to. This is the, you know, kind of the core experience that you had was.

A (29:23)

Also in September of 1964.

B (29:26)

My core experience was in September. Right.

D (29:28)

And what happened then?

B (29:30)

Well, I was assigned to a Minuteman missile. I was assigned to a Minuteman missile site. And the guard check is right next to the gate. There's a fence around the missile site and it's got add at ATT alarms on it. Do nothing really. The site itself is well lit. It has like a stadium lighting up there and it's rolled it. And I was on the night shift, so that, and it was foggy and so that kind of paired like a dome over me. You could probably see 30, 40ft from where the guard check was. And I could see the missile site behind me. But if I looked straight ahead, I just saw a wall of fog. Basically the sergeant had come and delivered a lunch which had been 2 o' clock in the morning on average, your night shift. And so the timing would have been right around 2 o' clock because the sergeant had just left. And so I'm sitting there and next thing I know, I see this shadow in the, in the fog. I'm looking ahead and I see the shadow and I see a man, which appeared to be a man or humanoid figure emerge from the fog, you know, and I thought, well, what the heck? Did the sergeant walk back? And you know, that's my first thing on the sergeant walked back and he couldn't figure why. But then the next thing, this figure kept coming towards me. Now it had like a trench coat on, really very similar to the raincoats that were issued to the officers. And he had a cap on which could have so my next name, I wonder if that's some officer checking up on, on me. But as it got closer, I realized this was not what it was. And I could feel it in my mind. I mean, it was like it was. It started grabbing hold of me and I became really frightened. And as it approached me, I tried to pull my pistol. We had.38 police as part of our gear and I tried to pull my pistol and my right arm was paralyzed. I couldn't move it. I could move my body, but I couldn't move my arm. And I became more terrified and it became closer to me. Something. I can't see the face in my brain. If I try to see this face, I can't see it. It's a blank. But whatever it was was terrifying me. And whatever it was had control of at least my right arm. And I was standing just outside the shack and I backed into the shack just instinctively I guess and I got myself back to the back of the shack and there was nowhere else to go. And the figure was coming, continued coming towards me. And there was a shelf at the back, there was a telephone on there and it was just a shelf. And I can remember distinct pushing my back into that shelf and trying to push the back of the shack out. I was like a. A rat caught in a trap. And the terror was just. I couldn't describe how, I was just terrified. The next thing I know I'm out, you know, and I don't know if I passed out or it's just blank at that point. So then, then I come to and I'm inside this. It's a circular room. I'm not going to call it a craft because I didn't see it from the outside. But I'm in this circular room and I'm on my knees and there's about a two and a half, three foot circle that's clear, you could see through it. And there's this figure on my right hand side and it's communicating me. Don't look at me, don't look over here, just look through the circle and, and you know, it's weird because it's not words, you know what it wants. It's like he's. It's very definitely a command, but it's not in words. But you know what, you know, I don't know, other people have this psychic thought process or anything like that. But one thing that it was not words, it was just. I knew I was not to look at them. You know, just look out this circle. So I'm looking at the circle and what you see initially is just this gray fog, basically. One thing I noticed at the time is that I would expect a breeze or something cold to be coming through. And it wasn't. It was like there was a barrier, but it wasn't like glass. It was just clear. And all of a sudden this kind of clears away like clouds splitting. And there's a post about a hundred yards down the. Down the street on the opposite side of the room. Now I'm on site D5, and this is site D11, which is across the street down there. I was familiar with the site. I knew which one. It was easily identifiable by the side of the street and the orientation. And it's just getting light. And I can see this truck pull up to the gate and. And it was a flatbed truck, a long flatbed truck, and it had a lot of long pipes on it. And the guard was to the. Came over to the right side of the truck and obviously was getting ID or checking with whoever was driving, went over, opened the gate, let the truck in, and then the clouds closed up. And so I'm still looking through this hole, and I'm still just, you know, just keep looking through the hole. And I kind of raised my eyes to look around without looking over. And there were the opposite me, about. About six, ten feet away were these four figures sitting on. On a bench. And I could see that the wall of the. Of the craft, when I'll call it a craft now, I could see that the bench was just a continuation of the material of whatever the wall was and whatever lighting was in there. The figures were silhouetted like the light source was behind or from the wall, but very, very consistent. I mean, there wasn't like bright lights or anything. Effectively, the room was pretty dark. So the figure seemed silhouetted. It appeared to me like a baby. Had a large head and smaller body. Disproportionate. The eyes were discernible because they were darker than the. Than the skin features or whatever. A lot of people say they were, you know, these creatures or creatures beings, whatever were some sort of suit or something like that. I couldn't really tell that. Basically a silhouette with just slight features available. And there were two on one side and two on the other side with a space in between that I took to be some sort of door out of this room or something like that. And that's about it. I mean, that's. Next thing I know, I'm sitting on the. I'm laying on the floor of the guard shack. There's like a little porch right in front of the door to the guard shack and I'm laying with my feet off the porch on the ground and this being is sitting on the porch and has my head in his lap and it's saying to me it's communicating again. It's communicating. I'm sorry, you know, we didn't mean to scare you. He says it was, we just, you know, it was if we didn't mean to scare you. But we had, had to have access to the site. So we needed that. We needed the intelligence is what I was gathering out of this form of communication that they were just needed access to the site and I was in the way. And so it really felt comfortable. Like, you know, I felt like, well, this is okay, he's not going to hurt me, you know, so I was fine, you know, but it kept, the other thing was keep my eyes tightly shut. It did not want me to look at it or see it. Keep your eyes shut, you know, and, and I apologize, I'm sorry that, that we scared you so much. But we needed to have access and you were, you were in the way. And he says, no, I'm going to leave and I want you to just keep your eyes shut. Just, you know, don't get up, don't do anything, just stay there with your eyes shut. And he left. And I did just what he said. I laid there for maybe 15 minutes with my eyes shut and I was glad to see him go, frankly. Then I finally got up and looked around and the sun was just, it had come over the. There's a ridge of mountains behind the, the what we call D sector, probably quarter of a mile back. And the sun was coming up over that ridge. And if you look towards the ocean you could see the light coming, you know, lighting up the ocean. It was kind of beautiful sight. And I looked over to my right and there was a little chipmunk on the ground. And I have never, I just felt so much love for that little chipmunk, you know, I felt like I was joined with that chipmunk, you know, one, one living creature to another. And the little chipmunk kind of just looked back at me and kind of scurried away. About 20, 30 minutes later, the time would be probably around 6, 30, 7 o'. Clock. My relief came now. The missiles, 50, 60 yards off the main road, there's a little road that goes to the, to the missile site. And you know, my relief came down, relieved me and then they were all delivered by these air Force route pickup trucks, four door pickup trucks basically. And I could have gotten their four door or four doors, seat in the back. I could have gotten inside, but I didn't want to. I gotten back and I, I put my back to the cab of the truck and I pulled my feet up and then they went and picked up the other guards and I was just real quiet and they were asking me what's wrong? And you know, and I knew something had happened but I couldn't quite put my finger on. Something profound happened but. And I was confused and it was cold because it had been a foggy morning until the sun came up and kind of burned it off, but it was still cold and I was just trying to watch what happened, you know, what figured, you know, I couldn't figure it out and by the time I got back to base, well, it was. I couldn't remember anything. Now I didn't remember this particular thing until two weeks later. Rough. Roughly two weeks later. And I was aware that something had happened but I couldn't put my finger on it and I'd try to put it aside and it was just something that nagged at me. But then I got up in the morning or was apparently on the, on the day shift because it was early morning and all of a sudden and you know, I've heard of paralysis sleep where people have these experiences when they're. I wasn't paralyzed. I woke up and all of a sudden I got flooded with this whole experience that I just told you and it wasn't a dream. I could tell you it was so real. I've never had a dream like that before and I've never had a dream that happened since. It was real and I knew it was real. And I, I linked next to some venetian blinds and I picked them up and kind of looked out, the sun was shining and I looked over and my roommate was asleep. And I kept thinking, God, put. What's this? I need to tell somebody. This is, this is critical. You know, there's some entities got on my site and I got up and I got dressed and was going to breakfast and I thought, no, this is, this is crazy. I'm not going to tell anybody. They're going to put me in a psych ward. And then it was like I got something in my mind says no, don't you tell anybody. You keep this to yourself. It's like there was a priest at command or something like that. I think it was so vivid that it was kind of released. They wanted to time lapse between the event and the time that it came, you know, that I was aware of the experience. It's almost like that was so vivid that it was, it was okay. Like there was a release of the command not to forget. And so. But now I knew.

C (43:00)

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D (44:45)

Did these beings say who they were?

B (44:47)

No. No. When he was. When I had my head in his lap and he was apologizing, he said that they were, you know, they needed to get the information on the site, the, the data out of the missiles. See in the missile there's at the top of a meditman missile there's like a donut on a toilet paper roll. There's a room that has the electronics equipment in it, has a separate access door to it and inside there are involving. They were big old computers back in those days. See, when the missile is. Gets the launch command, then it's. That's it. In order to keep somebody from sabotaging it or stopping the launch, everything takes place in that little room. And that's where the crew does the maintenance on the missile and everything like that. There's a door that actually opens into the silo. And so they needed to get in that room and probably to those computers and launched things. That's where I'm thinking that they got the data. That's basically what I'm speculating.

D (45:58)

But they use the shack essentially as a point of access for this. Okay.

B (46:04)

They just. I was at the shack and they just needed to need me out of the way, basically. And as he came towards me and I passed out, I was out of the way.

D (46:14)

So you were just between him and this electronics room.

B (46:17)

Essentially, there's a fence with the ADT that I'm in front of the fence.

D (46:21)

Got it.

B (46:22)

So somehow they got through the ADT and got into the crew access area and down into. I have to assume because I'm passed out at this point, but he did say or communicate that they needed the data from the missile. So my assumption is they've got down in that crew area and got to whatever data they needed.

D (46:47)

The first being you see has a trench coat on and looks like this shadowy silhouette.

B (46:52)

Yeah, no, he's. I just can't remember its face.

D (46:55)

Okay. So. Kind of hard to just recall like a little.

B (46:59)

The face terrified me. I know the face terrified me. I can't tell you what it was because I don't think my brain wants to remember, but it terrified me. I don't know. That was big eyes or. I have no idea what it was, but it terrified me. Yeah, I know how terrified I was. You can't dream. I don't think you can dream that kind of terror. It's like a rat that's trapped in a corner by the cat.

D (47:22)

But it was wearing human clothing, trench coat.

B (47:25)

I mean, humanoid. Probably five foot ten, probably very human.

D (47:32)

And the trench coat didn't seem otherworldly.

B (47:34)

It seemed another worldwide. That's what made me think it might have been an officer.

D (47:38)

Yeah. And so maybe he was kind of in disguise or something.

B (47:42)

Yeah. You know, I didn't know what was going on. It just. That was my first impression. But then I. When my. When my arm was paralyzed and I felt him in control, he had control of me. I say he, but he had control of me. You know, I'm assuming it was. I mean, I'd read it as A male figure because the trench coat. Women don't wear trench coats. And originally I thought it was an officer. Then it realized it was something else. And then. Then it. As it moved towards me, it had control of me. And then I pass, you know, I couldn't pull my weapon. Oh, and I tried to scream because I wanted to scream. And I. All I can get is a little. I couldn't even scream, you know?

D (48:25)

Wow.

B (48:26)

And then I remember my back pressing into that shelf. And then blank.

D (48:34)

Do they look like the typical classic gray alien that was more like a baby?

B (48:38)

Said it was. It didn't have. I. I don't recall ears. I know. There was no hair. You could. You could tell that even in silhouette. I mean, there were. It was a round head with big eyes. That's what.

D (48:50)

But gray aliens have large heads proportionate to their body. These were different in some way than the typical gray.

B (48:56)

I visualize this. The chin was not pointed. You see so many pictures of pointed chin. It. It was. Looked like a baby's head.

D (49:06)

Interesting.

B (49:07)

You know, and one of the things. The nicks were like a baby's neck. You know, you see pictures of the aliens with these thin necks and the big head.

D (49:16)

Yeah.

B (49:16)

Well, those nicks couldn't hold that heavy. You know, the dicks were proportionate. That was like our necks, you know, they're. They're. They're round enough and strong enough to hold up this big head.

D (49:28)

What color was their skin?

B (49:31)

Well, to me, it was just all dark. I mean, it was. It was just dark. It was like. I say it's solo, maybe dark gray or.

D (49:41)

But hard to tell because the lighting was.

B (49:43)

Because of lighting. The lighting was obviously backlighting of some sort.

D (49:47)

And they're. They're communicating to you. Don't look.

B (49:50)

No, they're not doing anything.

D (49:52)

They're not. They're not communicating.

B (49:53)

Watching me.

D (49:53)

Okay.

B (49:54)

They're just watching me.

D (49:55)

So the. The other figure, the other figure, the humanoid figure, the humanoid figure, that's the.

B (50:00)

One that did all the communication.

D (50:02)

Okay. And that one is communicating. Don't look.

B (50:04)

As soon as one thing. Don't look.

D (50:06)

That's. As soon as you're in the craft, he's saying, don't look, don't look.

B (50:09)

Just keep looking through the hole. That's all it was.

D (50:11)

You can. You. You're looking through the hole. But then at some point, you see these four.

B (50:15)

Well, when. When we. When they closed up. Oversight D11 then I raised my eye. I didn't lift my head. I raised my eyes. So my view is you know, through the. But I could see towards the wall and I could see the four figures.

D (50:32)

You mentioned being extremely afraid around the original humanoid figure. What did you feel when you're in the presence of these four beings?

B (50:40)

I felt very comfortable. It was, I felt everything was okay. You know, I wasn't afraid. I wasn't just everything was okay. It's almost to the point, I'm just curious what's happening. But no fear at that point, fear had. That terror had gone away.

D (50:58)

Did you ever have the thought, why am I not afraid? Because this is an extremely anomalous experience I'm having.

B (51:04)

And I also wondered why it was I felt so comfortable. I was just comfortable. You know, it's like I was experiencing something like that, but almost like I'm not. Like I'm viewing myself almost. I mean, I wasn't viewing myself. It was from my own.

D (51:22)

Were they making you feel comfortable, do you think, or obviously your interpretation.

B (51:27)

They have, you know, there's a, there's a bike period between passing out in the shed and waking, you know, or coming to in the vessel. Now they could have given me a sedative or used telepathy to make me feel comfortable because it went from one extreme to comfortable and then on the guard check floor to ecstasy, you know, I felt so good sitting, you know, with my head on this lap, you know, like I just felt wonderful, you know, if I were to relate it to something, I'd say because of my background, it would be a baby suckling at its mother's breast, you know, that just nice and warm and comfortable and mommy's there and I feel okay. The world's okay and the world is good. And then it, it did say, and it goes back to your original question. Did he say anything else? Yes. Or community thing. Yes. Is that they're not going to let it, you know, go to nuclear war. They needed to stop these missiles from launching. They were trying to get the data on how to task then. And that there wasn't good. They weren't going to allow these missiles to be launched. They weren't allowed us to go to nuclear war. In essence, that Earth made, you know, was important to them. And then there was another thing that not every species, there were more than one species and there weren't all as benevolent as they were. This creature, it's like, you know, and if it push came to shove, there could be some real issues over who's going to control, you know, once they take, at that point, once they stop all the missiles, they're they're going to take over. The sense I got.

D (53:22)

So there are multiple non human species. This species happens to be sort of very benevolent. Doing recon on the nuclear codes and how things work. And they're presenting themselves as benevolent. And do you trust, you know, coming away from the experience that they were benevolent?

B (53:38)

Yeah, I think I, I, I just lucked out.

D (53:42)

Did they say which species they came from?

B (53:45)

Didn't tell me any of that. It's just basically that the Earth was, the sense was, look, this is important to us and we're not going to let you destroy it. And if we're push comes to shove, we're going to intervene.

D (54:01)

The love that you felt for the chipmunk was that representative of some larger flooding of love that you felt for all beings?

B (54:11)

Yeah, it was like I had this feeling of ecstasy while I was laying on the lap of the being, you know, and then it just carried over. You know, once he left, I kept my eyes shut for a while and then I got up and there's this chipmunk sitting there and I just felt this connection. This was, I just love that little chipmunk, you know, and, and I felt connected to it. Like, you know, here's, here's another living being and I'm part, we're part of the, There was no separation. We were in the same, we were just a living beings and we, There was something good about that, you know.

D (54:48)

I know it was dark, but what did the room look like? If you had to describe it? You remember the walls.

B (54:53)

Is that okay? The walls were grayish. Okay. Which silhouette? So there was the lighting in the room. I don't know how much came through the hole in the floor or how much was backlighting on the wall. However, the figures were backlit because they were silhouetted. So I must, you know, the walls must have had some sort of, of floor or condescence that made them put the figures in the silhouette that I was, was looking at. I could distinguish the eyes as large, but not all of cheap like you see in a lot of the typical picture. They were just big, big eyes and dark, darker than say the skin or.

D (55:41)

To the room look indistinguishable from something man made. Or did it look.

B (55:46)

Oh no, it was man made.

D (55:47)

It look. It's the room itself looked like it.

B (55:49)

Could have been molded.

D (55:50)

Molded?

B (55:51)

Yeah. Look, if I were to say just one giant piece of plastic, you know, one giant piece of gray plastic.

D (55:59)

Well, that, that doesn't sound man made to me, I don't think.

B (56:03)

Well, it Might not be.

D (56:04)

I mean. Well, there's a difference between artificially constructed by deliberately and. And man made. Human made. Are you saying it was human made? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (56:15)

It had to be an awfully big mold. I mean, you know, you're talking a room that's. That's maybe 15ft across.

D (56:21)

And why did it look molded?

B (56:24)

Because of the bench.

D (56:26)

Okay.

B (56:26)

The bench that the four entities were sitting on. You could see they were silhouetted, they were very dark. But the wall and the material was grayish, so I could see the material. And also the floor was concave. In other words, they were elevated somewhat above where I was on my knees down there.

D (56:51)

Any seams or rivets or so it was sort of smooth and smooth even.

B (56:56)

Even to the point it looked like I could fall through that hole if I got too close. I mean, it looked like a hole.

C (57:04)

Yeah.

B (57:05)

But there was no. There was just the rim, but there was no, you know, there's not like a seam or anything there. Like it was part of the same material, except it was transparent.

D (57:16)

So it looked. It sounds like a classic saucer that you hear in other alien abduction stories.

B (57:23)

I guess so. At the time, I didn't know what other, especially from the inside, you know.

D (57:28)

Yeah. Have you looked into any other stories that sort of align with yours?

B (57:33)

Hard to find anything that describes the ends. I mean, you know, I hear these bright lights and these creatures obviously didn't want bright lights. You know, they have big eyes. The room was dark and you hear people. Well, they wake up in this room and it's all lit up and it's bright and it doesn't seem consistent to me because if you're going to have big eyes, you must be dark, adapted from wherever you come from.

D (57:58)

What time of day was this? You were taken in the morning, is that right?

B (58:02)

Okay. It started right after the launch was delivered, which would put at about 2:00'. Clock. Okay. Okay. When I'm on the. In the morning, when I'm looking through the hole, well, it's light enough to see what's going on on the ground. Like just sunrise, basically, like just kind of like dawn, you know, not well lit, but enough that you can discern. I could see the truck. I could see if it was loaded with pipes. I could see the. See the guard walk over to the window. I could see him open the gate and the truck drive in. That was all. But it was like not, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't a sunshine lit scene. The sunshine came when I looked and saw the Chipmunk. And the sun was actually coming over that bridge of mountains. And it was kind of pretty because if you look towards the ocean and then you can see the ocean kind of with a kind of yellow color to it and. And it felt so good, you know, I mean, I'm sitting here and everything just felt good.

D (59:10)

And so. So this whole event was morning to like afternoon. Ish.

B (59:14)

No, the whole event was a 2am to 2am okay, 2am till probably 6am I'm not sure when sunrise is, but.

C (59:24)

Got it.

B (59:25)

So there's two to. And that's when. When Bob Hastings asked me over the original. When he was on George Norrie, when I got cut off, he had asked me about a gap in time. And I had not thought about that gap in time. But between 2am and the time the entity came to me and say, 5:30, 6 in the morning, well, there's a gap. And I'd never even considered that. And that's when I got caught off because I was just going to say, hey, I hadn't considered that. So there was. There's a gap. Now what went on in that gap? We're talking say 2:30 to 6. That's three some odd hours. You know, it's more than what I'm describing to you. So I have no idea what went on.

D (60:15)

So maybe some lost time.

B (60:17)

It's lost time, definitely. You know, I have my friend Lonnie that is a doctorate in psychology and I had told her about this, oh, 20 some odd years ago. And one of her specialties is regressive hypnosis. But she didn't want to put me through regressive hypnosis because I was. When I was relating, she thought I was so upset. She didn't. She felt this wasn't her pay grade, you know, to deal with somebody that, you know, she does with past lives. She did deal with the, with the experiences. Like I had her.

D (60:57)

When you are guarding this shack from, like.

B (61:02)

I'm not guarding the shack. Okay, the missile site, the shacks for shelter.

D (61:05)

When you're guarding. When you're at the shack and you're guarding the missile site and it's early morning around the time of, you know, 2:00am to 6:00am Are you generally interacting with anyone else?

B (61:16)

No, there's no one there.

D (61:18)

Okay.

B (61:18)

Guards are. We were just put out there all by ourselves and we spent the whole shift by ourselves. We were supposed to. This probably. I'm not. We were supposed to make a call when the missile was in, in the silo. We were supposed to make a call every half hour and to command Post, but we didn't because it was just a given. Call me in the morning. And they were supposed to log it. Well, they logged it all night long. They slept. We didn't sleep. I think we were. But we didn't want to get caught sleeping. But if you were in command post, nobody can get into command post without going through knocking on doors and everything like that. So they would take turns sleeping. They would log all the calls and. And we would just fool around, you know, and it was boring. You know, you got there in the middle of the night and it's dark and. Or foggy. You're nothing to do, you know, you can't even read because we sneak books on some of the sites. But you couldn't even admit it then. You couldn't. It was too dark. Even with the bright light. You couldn't because the light was focused on the silo itself, the. On the launch complex. And, you know, you have a little light like one of these up here, barely lit. So basically we all hated Minutenet. Every one of us hated Minutenet. And sometimes we'd get. We had phones because they would call in from. We'd had to make the call into a command post. So we'd call each other.

D (63:01)

When you're in this room or UFO saucer, whatever it is, and you're hovering above the base, do you see what they're trying to do or monitor?

B (63:13)

I don't know why they showed me that. It's just like they could. They were trying to show me I was in a craft, I guess, and that, you know, show me if something that I'd be familiar with.

D (63:26)

Do you know what day in September this might have been?

B (63:29)

No, I don't. No, because it was. It was two weeks later, what day? The full memory came back. And then. So I. I couldn't tell you what particular I probably could have at the time.

D (63:43)

Did you tell anybody at the base?

B (63:45)

Oh, God, no.

D (63:46)

Did you know of any UFO activity at Vandenberg Air Force Base at the time?

B (63:50)

Not the time. You know, all the. All the scuttlebutt was if you went out to D sector, which is 20 miles away from the base. In your scuttlebutt, you know, to scare the new guys was Bigfoot's out there and he's. He's gonna get you. But there nothing about UFOs or even talk about it that I know.

D (64:09)

Do you ever speculate that the UFO you were in was the same UFO that maybe shot the Dummy nuclear warhead out of the sky. In Bob Jacobs case, there's two.

B (64:18)

Two close together. September. September. So not. This was at night. Bob Jacobs was in the daytime. But I'm sure the activity was coordinated. You know, it could have been the same craft. Could have been. And I don't know what their structure is out there, how many of them there are.

D (64:38)

Have you seen any UFOs since then or seen, had any, you know, direct contact experiences?

B (64:44)

Not direct contact. We were on 4th of July where I live, the house, the park is along a wash and, and it's a great place to watch the fourth of July fireworks. And we were sitting there and this would have been probably the. Around 2000 in that vicinity. We're out there watching fireworks and somebody said, there's. What's that bright light up there? And I looked up and I said, oh, I think that's Jupiter. And they said, no, Jupiter, it's over there. I said, oh no, it's pretty bright, isn't it? So I had binoculars and I looked at it with the binoculars and it was going side to side.

C (65:27)

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B (67:17)

You couldn't perceive it without the binoculars, but I could see it was side to side. And I had the binoculars to another guy and he said, look at this. Is that moving? And he said, yeah, it's moving. So then he gave back to me. And it goes. It starts into a zigzag, and then it goes into a zigzag, and then it kind of shot off towards the north. And so there was no real interaction, but. And I said to this friend, I said, that's a ufo. And so he was kind of skeptical, but I said, roger, it's something identified. We don't know what it is, and it's up there in the sky. So it's a ufo. I don't think it's a flying saucer, but it's very unique. You know, that was the only other type something, and there were like five of us that witnessed that.

D (68:13)

But is there anything else worthy of relaying that you haven't told me about the core experience in 1964, in September?

B (68:20)

No, because to me, it's three segments. It was initially the entity coming out of the fog, the terror I felt inside the craft, we'll call it craft. And then on the floor of the guard shack and waking up and looking at the chipmunk, you know, when it came flashing back, that's when I went back and tried to put the time together, like getting on the truck and knowing what. Why I felt so odd when I got on the truck. Well, it was because I had had this experience, but it was fading, you know, and. And by the time I got back to base, it was gone. You know, it was. Although there was this nagging feeling that I knew something had happened, but I couldn't tell you what it was. But it. It really nagged at me. It was, you know, it's uncomfortable feeling something, but I don't know what.

D (69:17)

Did you have any physical marks or chips implanted or anything like that I know of?

B (69:23)

I could tell you just. And I don't know if it relates or not. I recall at one time I had like a sinus needle and I. I blew my nose and a BB came out, a little round ball with a flat side on it.

D (69:40)

Really?

B (69:41)

Yeah. But I did could correlate that to that experience at all. I did. What I did connected.

A (69:46)

Well, what.

D (69:47)

When was that?

B (69:48)

Oh, probably a few years later, you know, but that.

D (69:51)

That's really interesting.

B (69:53)

Yeah, it is.

D (69:54)

Now that I look, a metal BB came out of your nose.

B (69:57)

Out of my nose, yeah. And.

D (69:58)

And I believe the nose is one of the most common places that people have sort of implants.

B (70:03)

I didn't. I didn't connect at all. I just was. I wondered. I thought maybe. Well, when I was a kid, Bob.

D (70:08)

Hastings himself, who wrote UFOs and nukes, is actually a UFO experiencer. And he wrote a book about this called Confessions. And he talks about an implant in his nose and then waking up with blood on his pillow. You did mention after the camping trip in 1988, you waking up with blood on your pillow. Did that have to do with anything that possibly was inserted in you? You know, there are implants that have been reported in certain abduction cases.

G (70:37)

I was aware of the concept of implants and people finding blood on, you know, their clothed bed, bed, clothing, and so on and so forth. I never felt the need, for whatever reason, to, you know, investigate that further. You know, I tried to get an X ray. I mean, if you went to a doctor and said, you know, I think I have an alien implant in my head, would you X ray me? I just wasn't prepared to go there. So I, you know, I thought I might have something in my body, but I didn't really think about it. Well, in 2001, I believe it was, I was having breathing problems. I had a deviated septum. So I finally had some nasal surgery. And so I have that done to correct this problem. And I go in for the post operation meeting with the doctor, and he said he was like, I would say in his late 60s, early 70s. He was shaking his head, literally and figuratively. And he said, I found something in your right nostril that was so hard, I almost couldn't break through it. He said it was the damnedest thing, you know, and he was saying, you know, I've done this for many years. I've never seen anything like it or encountered anything like it, whatever words he used. And, you know, I'm kind of rolling my eyes and going, holy crap, I bet I know what it was. But what they do is they have a vacuum wand with a tube attached to a tank. And so they're. They're roto rooting, rootering your nose and getting cartilage out and cleaning up your nasal passages. So whatever was in there, they just sucked out and discarded. You know, to him, it was just some sort of biological anomaly, so never saved it. So, you know, it was gone by the time, you know, he told me about that.

B (72:13)

I just did. It was quite a few years later. I did connect it. I just thought it was. I must have put that in there when I was a kid. It was the only thing. It wasn't a copper bb. It was. It was like chrome plated.

D (72:28)

Or did you save it and test it or anything else?

B (72:30)

No, because I, I, I spit it, you know, into my hand and I thought, oh, this must have been there for years. And I throw it away.

D (72:38)

Do you ever think, what is this doing up here?

B (72:41)

Or I thought I maybe stuck it in when I was a kid. You know, I did kids stick things in their ears. I stuck stings in my ears and my nose, so that's what I related it to. But now later, when they talk about implants, I think, well, it still could been something I put in my nose when I was a kid, or it could have been an implant. I don't know.

D (73:01)

Did you ever do any sort of hypnotic regression or see any sort of psychiatrist Noda?

B (73:07)

I kind of was hoping Lonnie would want to do it, but she did want to do it.

D (73:12)

Did you ever think that there was some sort of trickery involved and somebody was messing with your mind?

B (73:22)

No. It was too, too vivid, too real. Nobody could do what was done to me. Nobody could create that kind of terror. Nobody could evoke that kind of love. I mean, nobody could do that. That was supernatural. You know, it was. I mean, the terror. Yeah. I was a rat trapped in a box. You know that. But, but the love. Nobody could. Could. Nobody could do that.

D (73:46)

You mentioned Lonnie, your friend who has hypnotic regression experience. So you told her about this experience. Right. How many people have you told? How many friends have you told?

B (73:56)

I told. Well, Lonnie was the wife of my best friend. And I told Mike, my best friend, and consequently he had mentioned something to Lonnie that I gave her the whole story. And then I had told a couple of people that I kind of trusted that they weren't real close friends, but I had coffee with quite often, and, and I knew pretty well. I mean, we had pretty good. Large group of guys that used to hang out in Starbucks and drink coffee and BS at night.

D (74:30)

Did you ever tell anybody who was stationed at the base with you at Vandenberg?

B (74:35)

No. No. Okay. I, I kept my you know, it was. First of all, it was like if I wanted to, I don't think I could because it was like I was told not to and not, you know, the beings had conditioned me or hypnotized me or something. I would try to, but then it was, it was, don't, don't. You know, like it was as if.

D (74:57)

They still had some lingering control over you.

B (74:59)

Some control. And you don't say anything, just keep your mouth shut. Because I tried several times. I wanted to and I couldn't.

D (75:07)

Did you know anything about UFOs at the time prior to the experience?

B (75:11)

You know, everybody heard of Barney Hill. You know, I had no real extensive knowledge of it. It wasn't, I mean, probably some. I've read stories, but I didn't focus on it or dwell on it or. It wasn't a big deal to me, you know.

D (75:30)

Do you think about what happened to you now a lot? And do you think about the implications and meaning of what happened?

B (75:36)

All the time.

D (75:37)

And what conclusions have you drawn?

B (75:40)

Just what, that they're out there. They're not going to let us go to nuclear war, you know, come hell or high water. And if they do, then it's their game, not ours anymore. You know, they'll leave us alone unless we, I mean, this is the sense I got that they would leave us alone unless we screwed up.

D (76:02)

What do you hope to achieve now by relaying your story to me? Hopefully, you know, hundreds of thousands of people at least get to hear your testimony. What do you hope they take away from it?

B (76:13)

Well, it's just one mark. Like I, like when I, when I wrote Bob Salazar. I'm not in this for anything. It's just a piece of data that might be interesting to him or anybody else. It just. Another piece to me is, you know, Robert Hastings books got like 169 accounts in it. You know, if he, if he updates it at number 170, this mine's a little more unique because he only has with me eight cases of the third kind.

D (76:44)

Close encounters of the third kind. So actually experiencing beings themselves. That's right. Only eight of his 167 some odd experiencers have had those experiences where they see beings. I do think, though, it's funny, I've had this conversation with Bob Hastings in the past where I say, did you systematically ask all of the whistleblowers who'd just seen crafts whether they've seen beings themselves? And he said no. And so if eight people have volunteered that they've seen beings, you have to Think that number is actually just much higher.

B (77:18)

Yeah, I assume it is. I think. I mean, there's lots of people out there who said they. See, there's always the issue, you know, how I could tell this story. And there's always going to be somebody who's going to want to debunk it. The first thing they're going to say and has been said to me, well, you have no witnesses. You know, you were out there by yourself. So did you make this story up or, or with George, before George Norri, you had Art Bell. Art Bell, okay. There was somebody that had. I had called in on Art Bell and I did get through and basically he said, well, he would email me. He bought my email address and that he would email me. He says, but if I find out you're screwing around or lying, he says, I'm going to make it very tough on you.

D (78:17)

Art Bell said this, Not Art Bell.

B (78:19)

The guy that he was interviewing.

C (78:21)

Ah.

B (78:21)

And so we had quite an exchange for a while. I told him that, you know, pretty much the story.

D (78:27)

Who was this?

B (78:28)

I don't know. I tried to look back over my emails and I could only go back.

D (78:33)

So far, describe him. Maybe I could figure out he had.

B (78:36)

Written it wasn't Bob Hastings, because I talked to. Told Bob Hastings about this, and I didn't know Bob Hastings was one I had talked to when I called George Norrie. Except he remembered that he, he didn't remember my particular talk. But you know what I had said to him. But he was on George Norrie being interviewed.

D (78:59)

When was this interview with George Norrie that you called into?

B (79:02)

Probably about, oh, seven, eight years ago.

D (79:07)

Okay. And so that's live for everyone to.

B (79:10)

Yeah, that was. The other one was live too.

D (79:12)

So. And both are probably out there. So we could probably dig up the.

B (79:16)

I would like it. And Bob Hastings would like me to dig up the first one, Bill. But all I could do is go back over the by, you know, by aol and see. But they're all erased.

D (79:28)

Sure.

B (79:29)

I can only go back, well, describe.

D (79:30)

The person who Art Bell was interviewing and maybe I can help you.

B (79:33)

He was very much like Bob. Bob Hastings. He had written a book. It was more extensive than just UFO, you know, UFOs, Dukes, but sounded very credible. And the only thing he said is, you know, we had had this exchange through seven or eight emails and he said, well, he couldn't, couldn't include me at any further books because he couldn't collaborate it.

D (80:00)

Corroborate it. Corroborate it because you didn't have someone else coming out, somebody else who is witnessing the thing.

B (80:06)

But he said, I believe you, but just. It's not something I could put in my book because I want to. Yeah, everything cooperate.

D (80:13)

Well, sounds like a decent researcher. It was the name Lindemann, by any chance I could.

B (80:17)

I can't remember.

D (80:18)

Oxler or.

B (80:19)

Okay, I can't remember your name half the time.

D (80:24)

No, you're good. Well, I think, you know, stories at Vandenberg are so compelling because not only, like, do you have a story happening the same month that was corroborated by Florenz Mansman, who is the major, who is in charge in supervising Bob Jacobs, who's a photo instrumentation specialist. So you do have a witness there, but that happened the same month. And then you also have other stories at Vandenberg. Do you know who Jeff Nuccitelli is, by any chance? He's an interesting witness, and he and some colleagues, I believe, in the early 2000s experienced this UFO.

F (80:59)

Between 2003 and 2005, five UAP incidents occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base. The incursions began on October 14, 2003, when Boeing contractors reported a massive, glowing red square silently hovering over two missile defense sites. After several minutes, it drifted further east onto the base and vanished over. Over the hills. This event, now known as the Vandenberg Red Square, was referenced by Representative Luna at the first hearing on this topic. Official Air Force records of this event are in possession by ARRW and the FBI. Later that night, while I was on duty, security guards at a critical launch site reported a bright, fast moving object over the ocean. I responded to the incident. Chaos ensued. Over the radio, as the object approached rapidly, I heard my friends screaming, it's coming right at us. It's coming right for us. And now it's right here. Moments later, I heard them say that it had shot off and was gone. When I arrived on scene. I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive triangular craft, larger than a football field, that hovered silently for about 45 seconds over their entry control point before shooting away at impossible speed.

D (82:21)

So Vandenberg is definitely a hotspot. It's one of these places like Malmstrom Base in Montana, where throughout the years you have recurring patterns of UFO sightings. So I do think there is some sort of intimate connection there.

B (82:37)

Oh, yeah. I think this is an ongoing thing. I think it's going on right now. And. And I think what my impression was that they're not going to, you know, they're going to be Ready to intervene, should we go, you know, let those missiles loose. But until then, they're going to stay in the background. Although I'm not sure they're always in the background because there's a lot going on now that makes me wonder if they're orchestrating a lot of this steps towards this disclosure.

D (83:06)

You think the beings themselves might be orchestrating disclosure?

B (83:10)

Yeah, that's, that's, that's speculation. I don't know.

D (83:13)

Well, Richard, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

B (83:17)

You're welcome.

D (83:18)

And yeah, appreciate your courage and all the incredible detail. And I hope that this again allows other people to come forward as well too, because I.

B (83:29)

Nothing else does. Get some people prepared to this ultimate disclosure so that they think about it, they're ready for it when it comes. And I think there's enough evidence out there, overwhelming evidence. I think again, we go back to nukes and, or UFO nukes, that well researched evidence in one source and there's thousands of sources out there. I'm trying to think of Project Blue Book. Who was the, who was the Dr. J. Allen Hynek. Yeah, yeah. He came to, took the evidence and he. Very brilliant man.

D (84:06)

Yeah, no, no, nobody who spends more than three days on the UFO topic comes to the conclusion that it's fake other than people associated with our nuclear programs or the DOE or the Atomic Energy Commission. So, you know, or the, you know, NDRC or, you know, precursors to, you know, our atomic program. So you have Don Menzel who's, you know, this kind of deep state spook, you know, friends with Vannevar Bush, held all the clearances in the book. He, you know, ran Bureau of statistics for the US he was dogmatically opposed to UFOs. You have J. Allen Hynek, who was opposed, but then, you know, later retracted all of that stuff and kind of repented for the fact that he was opposed. You have a couple other people in official positions, you know, Edward Condon, who wrote the first, you know, textbook on quantum mechanics in the English language. You know, people don't realize he was appointed, supposedly appointed by the, you know, Project Blue Book on this independent commission, you know, in Colorado. And it was supposed to, yeah, the Condon report. And it was supposed to go through all these UFO cases and, and basically be an independent check against Blue Book's findings. And then you find out that he was, you know, very close friends with Oppenheimer going back to, you know, their studies at Gottingen in Germany in the 20s, and he wrote the Los Alamos Primer helped pick Los Alamos as the site for the Manhattan Project. The Los Alamos Primer was something that all employees had to read upon joining the Manhattan Project and wrote the McMahon Secrecy act, which is in 1946, basically the precursor to the Atomic Energy act in 1954, and which is kind of this cloak and dagger way to overlay atomic secrecy with UFO secrecy. So basically, you spend a few days on this, you become open minded, or you're dogmatically opposed because you're like some sort of operationalized asset against the thing.

B (86:09)

You're protecting your own.

D (86:11)

Exactly. And maybe, you know, maybe there are a few contemporary examples where I don't want to say they're full bad faith actors, but, you know, it's probably easy to impugn a lot of their motives as well. But anyways, you know, even though the latest head of Arrow, you know, our official, you know, again, modern investigation program, which is similar to Blue Book, it's probably just this fake, fake hit job on UFOs. There's a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick who, you know, has long ties with the doe, worked at Oak Ridge, you know, got this award from Brookhaven when he was, you know, a teenager, and, you know, has all sorts of, you know, monetary incentives to say this stuff is fake. So anyways, Richard, I really appreciate you and this is a lot of fun and I. And hopefully it, it shakes the world up that.