Army Captures Live Alien [You Won't Believe What Happens Next]

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

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BREAKING: The Brazilian Army Captured A Live Alien From A UFO

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels — Guest: James Fox
Date: December 21, 2025

Overview

In this electrifying episode, Jesse Michels sits down with acclaimed UFO documentarian James Fox to dissect the astonishing events surrounding the 1996 Varginha UFO incident in Brazil. Their deep-dive focuses on new revelations from Fox's film, “Moment of Contact: New Revelations of Alien Encounters,” spotlighting claims that the Brazilian military recovered a crashed UFO and captured at least one live extraterrestrial being. The episode weaves first-hand witness testimony, whistleblower accounts, official secrecy, and wider UFO lore—including possible US intelligence involvement—into a compelling, controversial narrative.

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Major Discussion Points

1. The Varginha Incident — High-Level Recap

[05:02 – 08:00 | 21:39 – 23:12]

• In January 1996, multiple witnesses near Varginha, Brazil, saw a large cylindrical, cigar-shaped craft—the size of a school bus—that appeared to struggle mid-air before crashing.
  • Eyewitness descriptions included a tear in the object and a white vapor or "acid" leaking out.
  • “It was like a white vapor. Then it was clearly in distress.” — James Fox [07:00]
• Debris was found, reportedly with unusual properties: feather-light, shape-restoring “metal” reminiscent of Roswell accounts.
• UFO recovery effort: Brazilian military quickly cordoned off the area, and multiple witnesses, including local farmers and a geography professor/pilot, faced immediate intimidation.
  • Carlos de Souza, who arrived at the crash, was confronted and threatened by “Men in Black”-type agents.
  • “Are you Mr. Carlos de Souza, married to so-and-so, your daughter so-and-so… If you ever talk about it, things will get very weird for you.” — De Souza (via Fox) [12:03]

2. Eyewitnesses: Children, Civilians, and Professionals

[22:07 – 30:10 | 43:21 – 49:49]

• Most famously, three young girls encountered a strange “oily-skinned, horned being” huddled against a wall, about eight feet away.
  • “Its eyes were super wide and red.” — Eyewitness/Victim [22:26]
  • Witnesses and their families faced ridicule, intimidation, and an attempted payoff by “Men in Black.” They never recanted.
• Firefighters and military police reportedly captured at least two entities:
  • One was netted and taken by the fire department—heard “crying like a child.”
  • “They captured it with a net like they would with a wild animal or something. So wild. But it was screaming like a little baby.” — James Fox [22:58]
  • The second, according to testimony and autopsy reports, fatally infected a military police officer (Marco Cherezi) with an unknown, aggressive bacteria after physical contact.
  • “Never before, never since… This was an advanced bacteria that did things nothing on Earth does.” — James Fox [31:13]
• Multiple civilian, medical, and law enforcement sources describe seeing the being or evidence of it transported through local hospitals.

3. Hospital Testimony: Direct Contact with a Live Alien

[43:21 – 54:38, 54:51 – 59:57]

• Dr. Italo Venturelli, Chief Neurosurgeon at Hospital Regional, describes spending 3-4 minutes alone in a room with the captured being.

  • “I looked into its eyes. Its face was white, its eyes were red. A communication—as if to say, ‘I am okay. I received care.’ It spoke without speaking.” — Dr. Venturelli (via Fox) [44:47]
  • Fox: "Knowing that you sat in the hospital room in the ICU with a live captured alien and had direct telepathic communication… doesn’t get any more incredible than that." [53:19]
  • Dr. Venturelli came forward after health scares—out of conscience.
  • He described the being as angelic, compassionate, and advanced: "Way more advanced than anything on Earth, way more advanced than myself. There's so much to learn from the eyes of that being." — Dr. Venturelli (via Fox) [55:04, 56:06]

• Venturelli’s neurosurgeon colleague performed a medical procedure (likely cranial pressure relief from trauma) on the being. That colleague has since passed away.

4. Military & Intelligence Involvement—Secrecy and Intimidation

[13:08 – 19:24 | 24:30 – 25:15 | 34:24 – 38:06]

• Witnesses were systematically threatened—sometimes by men appearing foreign or carrying foreign currency.
  • “If you ever talk about it, things are going to get weird for you. Not that we’re going to hunt you down and kill you. They’re going to get very weird for you.” — Fox, describing "Men in Black" warnings [13:37]
• High-level officials, including local police and hospital executives, confirm unusual military activity and visitation from “foreign” (possibly U.S.) operatives.
• The wife of deceased military officer Marco Cherezi had to sue to obtain her husband’s autopsy report, which revealed anomalous infection.

5. Parallel & Precedent Cases; Broader UFO Government Secrecy

[14:17 – 19:24 | 109:47 – 116:25]

• Fox and Jesse compare Men in Black activity at Varginha to similar intimidation of witnesses in Phoenix Lights and other major cases.
• Notable crossovers:
  • American operatives possibly involved in recovery and cover-up (USAF craft sightings, air traffic controller testimony, FOIA attempts) [78:52-83:32]
  • Other historic "crash retrieval" whistleblowers—Jonathan Weygant, Philip Corso, military pilots—parallel Brazilian case testimony in issues of secrecy, intimidation, and evidence suppression.

6. Themes of Trauma, Integrity, & Motivation

[42:06 – 42:55 | 52:00 – 54:38 | 54:51 – 56:39]

• Many witnesses carry visible emotional scars, fear, and grief from their experiences.
  • “I looked into this guy’s eyes, and I just saw eyes of someone that I’d never seen before… If you can imagine harboring or witnessing a murder and having to be quiet about it for the better part of 30 years...” — James Fox [42:06]
• Both host and guest repeatedly emphasize that none of these witnesses sought fame or profit.

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Notable Quotes & Emotional Highlights

• James Fox on Dr. Italo Venturelli’s Credibility:
  “He runs a chain of hospitals. He, you know, people are, their lives are on the line. Works on people’s brains. He’s a neurosurgeon, he’s a concert pianist… all the incentives are for him not revealing any of this.” [54:38]
• On Autopsy Evidence:
  “Never before, never since. This was an advanced bacteria… nothing on Earth, no bacteria on Earth does.” — James Fox [31:13]
• On the Growing Weight of Testimony:
  “If this were a murder case, you’d have more than enough evidence that the lockdown… This would be far beyond the threshold of evidence you’d need.” — Jesse [52:00]
• On American Involvement:
  “A specific aircraft belonging to the United States Air Force landed there… they collected something no one knows what it was.” — Air Traffic Controller testimony [79:06]
• On Integrity and the Search for Truth:
  “Don’t hide. Don’t treat us like children. Don’t hide the truth… Every man, woman and child has a right to know what the bigger picture is.” — James Fox [131:03]
• On the Power of the Community:
  “We all as a community need to work together, need to be kinder to one another, need to respect one another, particularly with those that we disagree with.” — James Fox [133:13]

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Key Timestamps and Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 05:02 – 10:45 | Detailed account of the UFO crash and witnessed object | | 12:03 – 13:08 | Carlos de Souza threatened by “Men in Black” | | 22:07 – 28:47 | The three girls’ close encounter with the being | | 29:10 – 31:55 | Soldier grabs being, dies of infection; medical testimony/autopsy | | 43:21 – 48:39 | Interview with Dr. Italo Venturelli: ICU alien encounter | | 54:51 – 56:39 | Psychological & emotional after-effects on witnesses | | 78:52 – 83:34 | US Air Force involvement, FOIA blockages, CIA's role | | 109:47 – 116:25 | Philip Corso, past crash retrieval testimony | | 131:03 – 133:13 | Plea for government transparency; impact on society |

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Memorable/Haunting Moments

• [44:21] “I looked into the creature’s eyes. Its face was white, its eyes were red… Communication, as if to say, ‘I am okay. I received care.’ It spoke without speaking.” — Dr. Italo Venturelli (via Fox)
• [56:06] “We have so much to learn in the eyes of this being.” — Dr. Italo & James Fox
• [22:58] "They captured it with a net like they would with a wild animal... But it was screaming like a little baby." — James Fox
• [31:13] “He said the bacteria most likely came from under the nail of the E.T… This was an advanced bacteria that did things that nothing on earth does.” — James Fox

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The Broader Context

• Patterns of Suppression: “Men in Black” intimidation, legal obstruction, and whistleblower retaliation are repeated themes—paralleling incidents in the United States.
• Disparate yet Overlapping Testimonies: Dozens of unrelated local civilians, medical and law enforcement officials, and even American pilots and air traffic controllers contributed consistent, intersecting accounts.
• Continued Unfolding: Fox emphasizes that he and others are still actively pursuing even more direct evidence, and that new witnesses from the medical and military communities are beginning to come forward.

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Closing Thoughts & Tone

This conversation is urgent, electric, and emotionally fraught. Both Jesse and James express awe at the courage of witnesses, frustration with government obfuscation, and deep humility about the ultimate mystery. The tone is passionate, occasionally skeptical but mostly respectful—treating the claims and evidence as worthy of serious, open-minded inquiry.

Closing Quote:
“I feel like my whole career has culminated to this moment right now… We all as a community need to work together, be kinder, need to respect each other, particularly those we disagree with… We’re stronger together.” — James Fox [133:13]

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Further Resources

• Watch "Moment of Contact: New Revelations of Alien Encounters"
• Explore additional whistleblower interviews, FOIA documents, and historical UFO case files mentioned throughout the episode for context.
• Visit American Alchemy merch site for thematic merchandise.

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For anyone new to the Varginha case or focused on UFO disclosure, this episode delivers essential, first-hand perspectives and genuinely new evidence to digest.

Transcript

[James Fox]

This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Trace Distillery. Powerful yet smooth contained, but never tame. Proudly going their own way, but never going alone. This is the spirit inside Buffalo Trace Bourbon. Made at Buffalo Trace Distillery, the world's most award winning distillery. Buffalo Trace is always perfectly untamed. Distilled, aged and bottled by Buffalo Trace distillery, Franklin County, Kentucky. 90 proof, 45% alcohol by volume. Learn more at Buffalotrace distillery.com Please drink responsibly with Venmo Stash. A taco on one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back with Venmo Stash. Get up to 5% cash back when you pick a bundle of your favorite brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms of Venmo Me Stash terms. I can't think of a crash retrieval case with live aliens better than Virginia. Every single bit of test from separate people from all over the area all fits perfectly. It's like putting together a piece of puzzle, right?

[Jesse]

I think if this were a murder case, you'd have more than enough evidence.

[James Fox]

Right here. The alien was alive in this bed right here. Knowing that you sat in the hospital room with a live captured alien and had direct telepathic communication.

[Jesse]

You have the autopsy of this soldier who's died because he basically grabbed an alien being.

[James Fox]

Every time I say something's impossible, therefore you know, it can't be, therefore it isn't, I've been proven wrong.

[Jesse]

I'm here round two with James Fox, who I always say is my documentarian hero and now a friend. And I just really, I really appreciate you coming here because we're talking about, I think, maybe the most interesting case where you have a ufo, you have alien beings, and you have all of these witnesses in a town in Brazil, in Virginia, Brazil, as late as 1996. We're not talking about Roswell 70 plus years ago, or magenta or magenta, you know, 90 years ago. And you've just done an amazing job in this movie of documenting all of the, literally the flight path of the ufo. You know, three beings coming out of the UFO and them seeming sort of injured and afraid, maybe more and maybe more. And you show all of these witnesses coming from disparate places that have zero reason to lie, have not made a penny off of any of their testimony. And they're coming from this, you know, from Virginia, Brazil. They're not, you know, selling books at like a conference in the Southwest, in the US and like into the UFO lore. Like they don't really have pre existing notions of what these things even are.

[James Fox]

So hard to get those people on camera. People have no idea. They think like people are just lining up. I want to be famous, I want my notoriety. Get on camera. Exactly the opposite. People took years and in some cases decades to come forward. And you know, this most recent revelation, which is in my humble opinion, the most compelling firsthand eyewitness testimony in the history of the phenomenon.

[Jesse]

I agree. I fully agree with that.

[James Fox]

Right. And it's not just some random Joe. It's the guy that ran all the hospitals, Humanitas Regional, like Bonhart's. There's three. He mentions them in there. But in any case, he's a neurosurgeon and he had health complications. He had a heart attack, then he got cancer. And he was like staring at the ceiling of the ICU and he was thinking, if I get through this, I can't take this to the grave.

[Jesse]

This is, it's literally the. I agree with you. It's the most amazing testimony I've ever heard from a person who was face to face with an alien being for what he describes as three to four minutes, which is just remarkable. And it's clearly, you know, he's a concert pianist. You show him at the, in the end credit playing piano.

[James Fox]

Oh my God.

[Jesse]

And. And he's a, a really well respected neurosurgeon.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And it seems totally beyond reproach. And you see him, he's in the hospital and he's showing the bed that the alien was on.

[James Fox]

Crazy.

[Jesse]

It's crazy. It's crazy. And then he gets emotional. You take him to a cafe nearby.

[James Fox]

Get kicked out of the hospital.

[Jesse]

Get kicked out of the hospital.

[James Fox]

He's like, I think I might have just lost my job.

[Jesse]

So a lot of this might be, you know, a lot of detail for people to take in, especially if they're not familiar with, you know, kind of the background of exactly what happened. Kind of high level.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. So, so, so what happened in January of 1996 in Virginia?

[James Fox]

Put me on that farm in January of 1996. What happened? So that was.

[Jesse]

The object was shaped like a saw, a rubber shape, like a school bus.

[James Fox]

It was the size of a school bus. So. And no noise at all.

[Jesse]

We kept watching it because there was.

[James Fox]

Smoke, a light smoke wrapped around it. But I even joked with her, what is that?

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Is it a submarine?

[James Fox]

Because it was floating, you know.

[Jesse]

He kept watching it until it vanished this way. It was shaped like a cigar, you.

[James Fox]

Know, that long, like that, like a cigar.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Roughly 20 miles as the crow flies, from the couple's sighting, farmer Fabio Furtado encountered a similar object from here.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

I saw it. It passed right by and made that movement over there in front, you see? And I saw it all from right here.

[James Fox]

Look.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Then it performed that exact same same movement right here. And then it landed way back there. It was like a cigar just flying through the air.

[James Fox]

It was January 1996, probably the 13th. And there are a number of witnesses to a cylindrical shaped object, rather large, the size of a little bigger than a school bus. Okay. And it was like a metallic cigar shaped. Cigar shaped, yeah. There were no, like, wings or any visible means of propulsion. It didn't really make any noise. And according to the witnesses, it had. And for the first time ever, in this recent cut of moment of contact, new revelations of alien encounters, we actually have a map of all the various sightings of it, which really helped put things in perspective for me, because you.

[Jesse]

Do a great job of that.

[James Fox]

Wow. I was like, oh, my God, he saw it here. This person saw it here. This is the town of Virginia. The crash was here. It was like. It all makes sense, you know? And so they see this object and it had a tear in the back of it, which is very puzzling. Like, hmm, how did that happen? Something came in contact with that object to tear it and have. They said it was like a white vapor. It wasn't like a smoke from a fire that you would have seen. It was like a white vapor. Then it was coming out the back, and then it was clearly in distress. And I was like, well, how do you know it was in distress? They were like, it was struggling to stay in the air. But they said, had the animals or the farmers. The two farmers. Had the animals not made a ruckus at 2 o' clock or 3 o' clock in the. They would have not even heard it or known it was there. It was absolutely silent, and they were expecting it to hit the ground, the two farmers. And then there was another gentleman, Fabio Furtada, at that farm, and he said that it was like it was over his house, and he was there with one other person at night, and he said that it was making a sound like it was kind of in trouble. And then it landed on his farm. It's the first time we got that testimony. And that's like, over here. And then the object was seen here and here. And then it Crashed right in the middle. And then there was a gentleman by the name of Carlos de Souza. And he was an ultralight pilot and he was also a geography professor in Sao Paulo. And he was going up to go ultralight flying with his friends early in the morning on January 13th. And he sees. And he's a pilot himself, he sees this object, this cigar shaped object with a gash in the back, just like everyone else described, that was struggling to stay in the air. And he never once thought alien. He was like, that must be some sort of weird experimental craft. Maybe it's government or air force, whatever, it's in trouble. It looks like it's going down. So it's really early in the morning. He turns off the freeway and he goes up to this place called the Maialini Farm. It was a dirt road. And he goes up there and he sees it struggling to stay in the air. And then it just goes boom and hits the ground. He's like, oh, my God. I think just crashed. They need help. Wow. So he went up to the actual impact site, which was like a debris field, bigger than a football field, maybe two football fields with debris everywhere. Half of the craft was still intact, and then the other half was just gone. Like just debris bits everywhere. Got out of the car and he was looking at it just. And again, never once did he think alien. Now doesn't even enter his consciousness right. And he said he's looking at it. He's like these little bits everywhere. And he goes, the smell like it pulled the. But he was like, it's rotten eggs and ammonia. He grabbed his shirt and kind of pulled his shirt over his mouth. My God, this smell is so dense.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

She immediately smelled ammonia. It was like rotten eggs. A very strong odor. I had to cover my nose with the shirt I was wearing.

[James Fox]

And there was like kind of a liquid that you described, because I was asking, like an acid or some sort of liquid everywhere that causing the grass and stuff to burn.

[Jesse]

And he said it was acid.

[James Fox]

Maybe like an acid or something. Yeah, like some kind of liquid. And that caused. He was talking about the grass was kind of was affected by it. And actually, if you. When we flew the drone over that exact alleged impact site, you can see it's different. The ground looks different in that zone than it does all around it. I mean, it really does.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

And he picked up one of the pieces and he said it was like aluminum, really light. Like you couldn't feel it very much like the Roswell people.

[Jesse]

That's always what you hear.

[James Fox]

Yeah. And he Said that he could crumple it up really light, like you could barely feel it in your hands. And then when he released it, it regained its shape.

[Jesse]

It's the same thing as what Jesse Marcel said.

[James Fox]

That's what he said. Yeah. It was weightless. You couldn't feel that you had anything in your hands. And then he goes. Then all these military trucks started coming in from the military base, Ezra, from the opposite direction, which actually just a few months ago, we were there. And I took the drone way, way up in the sky and pointed it straight down. And you could see where that as a military base, the route that Ezza would come in from. And he came in from the freeway on the opposite side. And that's when he was threatened at gunpoint. He didn't see anything. Get out of here. He was like, I was just trying to help. Like, you know, what's the problem? I'm just trying to help. I'm not, you know? And that's when he started. Things got really weird. And then he got into his car and he left. And he stopped at a gas station just a few miles down the road to have a coffee and just kind of gather himself. And that's when an unmarked vehicle showed up. And they knew who he was. His name, his wife, his address, his daughter, like all everything about him.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Two men approached me, dressed in black suits, all perfectly aligned, very tall individuals. They stood right next to me and asked me, are you Mr. Carlos de Souza, married to so and so your daughter? So and so. They described my entire life story right there. I turned to the man and asked, who. Who are you? What do you want to know? How do you know all this? It was perfectly clear to me. Listen, you didn't see anything. You just shut your mouth and you leave. If anyone ever asks you anything at all, you didn't see anything. You don't know a thing, or else things will get no supposed. It's really weird for you, all right? So just get out of here. I was, at that moment, completely startled. It was a black or a very dark blue Opala, almost black. And without a license plate. They got in and drove away. They vanished.

[Jesse]

That's crazy, because it's a level of counterintel response in 96, in 1996. And they somehow know everything about your family. And it's right after you witness a crashed craft and you drive a few miles away, and they somehow are able to apprehend you there.

[James Fox]

Yep. Like, the car that stopped had no plates.

[Jesse]

Did they have an accent, or was it he Said they were very tall.

[James Fox]

They had suits and they spoke Portuguese. And you know, sometimes there'll be one person speaking Portuguese and there'll be a couple other people that'll just be silent in the background. And that's. That happened in the case of Louisa, the mother of the two girls that came in direct contact with the alleged alien. And she's like, they were foreigners. Like, how do you know? Well, they didn't say anything but they look like foreigners. And the money was foreign. It was like American dollars in a briefcase. And. And he said that they were very intimidating. They said, you don't, you didn't see what you, you know, you didn't see that. And if you ever talk about it, things are going to get very weird for you. Not that we're going to hunt you down and kill you. They're going to get very weird for you. Which is kind of spooky. It's, you know what I mean.

[Jesse]

Do you think they were maybe like the proverbial men in black?

[James Fox]

Well, you know, it's so funny because I'd heard about these so called men in black stuff dating back to the. Yeah, to the 90s when I was investigating and I was like, I investigated the Phoenix Lights case and a lot of the witnesses hate when you say Phoenix lights. So they're like, it wasn't much of lights. It was a massive craft. You know, I can see the compartments. It flew right over my.

[Jesse]

Yeah. The governor has now admitted is real. And Kurt Russell saw, while he was flying a plane with his son, he.

[James Fox]

Said he could land his airplane on.

[Jesse]

There you go. Yeah. So we're going into Phoenix and there's.

[James Fox]

These bank of lights, six lights in the shape of a triangle going back.

[Jesse]

Right over the airport.

[James Fox]

So I was investigating that case and I was working with a woman who was Councilwoman Frances Emma Barwood. And I was interviewing her and of course I was going after the governor at the time. I wasn't getting any traction with that. And I was interviewing all the witnesses and there was one guy, a Vietnam vet and he contacted Emma Frances Barwood, one of the few elected officials, councilwoman that was willing to. Hey, all she said was, let's investigate what happened, what these people saw. Like let's just, you know, she was lambasted in the press. Oh my gosh, you can go see. They were making fun of her. This guy reached out to her and I know this because I was investigating at the time. I was in touch with her and he said, hey, I understand you want to know more about this craft. I'm a Vietnam vet. I was on my roof that night trying to get a video on a tripod of Hell Bob Comet, because the hell Bob was over the sky. And I have a CB radio and I was listening to the truckers come up Interstate 10 from Tucson. And they were all describing this massive boomerang shaped craft. And I realized, shit, this thing's coming right my way. So he said, I was all set up with a tripod and a camera and I filmed it going right over the top of my house. Got great footage. Would you like to see it? She's like, yeah, I'd love to see it. So they make arrangements where he was going to drop it off at her office. I don't know if it was later that day or the very next morning or that night. Two men roll up in an unmarked government vehicle and suits. And he's like, he goes, they were very intimidating looking at me and they were like in these dark suits. It was really hot. And the only thing they really asked me was, you know, they said they were from, they're like, we're from Francis, Emma Barwood's office. We're here to pick up the video. And he was like, oh, I was gonna drop it off, but I guess I don't have to. And he said the only question they asked is, did he make any copies? And he said, no, I didn't. And so they took the footage and left. And a couple days go by, he doesn't hear from Emma. So he calls her up. He goes, hey, what did you think of the footage? She goes, what do you mean what did I think of the footage? I didn't get the footage. He goes, well, you had two men from your office show up. She goes, I didn't send anybody around. So that was like the first time that I really heard about these so called men in black. And that was in the 90s.

[Jesse]

Yeah, no, this is made fun of.

[James Fox]

Exactly.

[Jesse]

But, but, but Richard Dolan, you great UFO researchers, write about this phenomenon happening time and time and time and time again. You have another example which you cover in the phenomenon or I think in the program actually.

[James Fox]

Two witnesses were out hiking. They then saw a large diamond shaped craft hovering. It didn't move, it just hovered in the air without making any noise. The witnesses looked at this for a while and one of them had a camera. So when the jet came along, they sort of stuck the camera out from, from behind the bush and snapped six frames. The two witnesses that took the photographs took like six prints. Five Prints like color, points of reference, broad daylight, two witnesses, military jet. The background, like, it doesn't get much better than that. And he's like, these men in black rolled up. They were having their cigarette break. They were fucking spooks.

[Jesse]

They were men in black, and they stood outside in the pitching rain speaking to them.

[James Fox]

So any case, when I got to the Varginh case with the man in black, I was like, oh, my God, these guys again. I'd heard I could give you. I could go, go on for five hours. It doesn't matter. My point is, I went all in on that.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And I did cover a little bit with the 1966 Westall UFO incident. The landing when I got a hold of Mr. Greenwood, the science professor, that's a whole story about how I got him to go on camera. I remember when I arrived in Australia, all the seasoned UFO researchers were like, don't even bother. You know, this guy will never come forward. We've been trying for 50 years. I said, just get me in the room with him. It is a great story behind how that whole thing goes. But he talks about these guys, the intimidation. They showed up at his door. They're in suits, like, you know, some unmarked government agency threatening him. Like, putting the fear of God in this guy. And.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So if you talk to Richard Dolan about who the men in black are, he seems to think osi. No. Well, this is really trippy. He thinks it's like, counterintel on behalf of the NHI or the aliens or the ETs. Because if you. If you think about it, the level of rapid response, the ability to show up and, like, you know, kind of know everything about, like, it's either like, in 1996, we had way more of like. Like. Like think about 1990, 1996. Consumer Internet wasn't really a thing. Like, you know, who knows how much information the government. Like, maybe the US Government had a lot of information on its citizens, but did they have information on a citizen of Virginia, on a, you know, this guy who's a pilot in Virginia and a geography teacher in Sao Paulo? Probably not. You know, and then the ability to show up a couple hours after he had seen this crashed craft. So de Souza, did he see any beings with the craft? He just saw the crash.

[James Fox]

Just saw the crash. And I asked him, I said it was the. Was the. The section that was still intact, was it big enough to have people? Oh, yes, he said, no question.

[Jesse]

Now, did he see inside it?

[James Fox]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

Yeah, I Didn't ask him that question. That's a good question.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

I think if he had seen inside, he would have told me. But he said there was a sec. He wasn't there for very long, but just a few minutes. But the section was intact. That was still there. And it was about half.

[Jesse]

Hmm.

[James Fox]

Half the size of what it was when it hit, when it impacted.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Seven days after Salsa witnessed the crash, Robert Ladera leaves this gym when he and several friends see two military trucks driving into town. They follow them through the neighborhood and come upon a military blockade.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

We tried to force our way through, and they raised their rifles, their weapons.

[Jesse]

Did you get. Did you all feel scared at that.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Moment on that day? The only time I felt fear was when the soul. When the soldier raised his rifle. Because until then, I had never seen such a large weapon, and no one had ever pointed a gun in my direction, you know.

[Jesse]

And you have some reason to believe that two or three beings came out and that. And one of the beings. And you have the mayor on record testifying to this. The mayor's nephew's girlfriend was one of the three girls that saw one of the beings.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

The news has just arrived at this very moment. Daguerrellas have spotted some kind of creature up there close to the Maracanon gymnasium.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Just around the corner from the military blockade. Three young girls had an encounter of the third kind.

[James Fox]

Three sisters, Valkyria, who is 14 years old, and Liliance, who is 16 years old, are all also very frightened. It's the first time they've come back.

[Various Interviewees]

To this very place since Saturday, January 20th.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

That strange round thing. Wow, it was incredibly strange. And it had these things like horns right on its head. Its skin was brown, and it looked like it had some. Some kind of oil all over its body. It had a huge foot, and its eyes were super wide and red.

[Jesse]

And then I think you have some reason to believe that one of the beings made its way over the hill and possibly towards the water and then was captured with a net. Is that right?

[James Fox]

Yeah, that was with the fire department earlier. That's why I keep thinking because that one was alive because we have testimony of someone that was in the area when it was in a net. They captured it with a net like they would with a wild animal or something. So wild. But it was screaming like a little baby.

[Jesse]

That's what they said. Screaming like a child.

[James Fox]

Child. Treat me like a child. Yeah.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The fire department was dispatched to this location after receiving several calls from concerned residents who reported seeing something strange in the area.

[James Fox]

First of all, I'd like to take a quick moment to acknowledge all the Brazilian UFO researchers that done a stellar job helping expose this story. Rodiokovo, Pacacini, Uberejada Rodriguez, Marco Petit, A.J. javard. I mean, these guys that came before us. Marco Leal's been on it for over 20 years. My partner, he's amazing. And the persistence of all of them and Marco and I knocking on doors, going downtown, putting up signs, leading us to people. I just want to give one example of how we got to the girls, because the girls are like, this is not a career enhancing move for these girls in a small town to be talking about. They got made fun of, ridiculed, laughed at, like their life was a living hell. Men in Black showed up at their.

[Jesse]

Mom'S house and they got offered cash to retract their statements.

[James Fox]

A lot of money.

[Jesse]

And they did not.

[James Fox]

They did not. And the mother said, I will not have. My daughters are not liars. That will not. That will not happen.

[Jesse]

That's right.

[James Fox]

They were very intimidating to her. And, like, so all this pressure and all this, you know, But I. I was there with. I was in Virginia. I'm going to say it was my second or third time, and it was probably 2012 would be my guess. And I was doing a silly TV show, which I'm not proud of at all. My bad. But whatever. It got me to where I am now, I guess. And I was for National Geographic. Oh, God, it was so bad. Sorry, guys. And. And we were out wandering in the. In the jungle at night, and I got bit by a spider.

[Various Interviewees]

Ooh.

[James Fox]

And it was like midnight or something. She had no business out. So silly. I got bit by a spider. And by the fang marks, it looked like it could have been a Brazilian wandering spider, which is deadly. They get me to this clinic and they have to do an anti venom. And I was up all night getting this drip feed. And then the next day, I didn't get any sleep. And the camera crew, the whole team, they were like, we're going here. And we got this scheduled. Da, da, da, da, da. And I was like, I've been up all night, man. Like, I. I got. I'm on camera. TV talent. And you guys are expecting. I was like, at the very least, I need to stop at a cafe and get. Get a juice. Because, like, Brazil is known for having incredible juice, right? Fresh juice. I love it. Mango, papaya, whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, we don't have time. We don't have time. And I Was like, you know, and the car was stopped. The van that I was in was stopped at a stoplight. And I just opened the door and got out. I was like, you guys leave without me. I'm not. I need some juice. I need something. I need something to nourish me. So I walked into this random, like, cafe juice bar, and I'm in there ordering, and this guy's looking at me, and I think he said something in English like, hey, are you. What are you. Are you American? I was like, yeah. What are you doing here? And I was like, oh, I'm kind of working with a TV show, you know, covering the Virginia. The 1996 Virginia incident. He goes, oh, my gosh. I dated one of the girls. I said, really? And we're trying to reach them. We're trying to find them. And he goes, let me hang on. Takes his phone out. Boom. Gets her on the phone. Hey, what's it going to take you? And that's how we first met. Whoa. And so had I not been bitten by the. You know what I mean? Like, wow, the way it all went down. Yeah, I know.

[Jesse]

That's crazy.

[James Fox]

Really crazy, right? The creature was there.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

And we just came by this way.

[James Fox]

I didn't realize that's closer than I expected. It's like eight feet away.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

And he was absolutely sweltering, sweating profusely, and it was incredibly hot. And so he was going through it, you know, suffering from the intense heat, the scorching sun, and the effect it had on his skin. Remember, I said, hey, everyone, look over there. Then he turned, I saw his eyes, and I immediately ran away. So when he turned, we could only see his eyes and what looked like a slit. But we couldn't really tell if he had a normal mouth like ours or something else entirely.

[James Fox]

When they locked eyes with this being, what were they thinking?

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Well, it wasn't a human that we saw. Honestly, it wasn't an animal either. And so these days, I truly believe it's a being from another planet. Back then, you know, we were always. We were children of Catholic parents, right? And that it could be a demon. And so that's why we ended up being afraid back then, you know?

[James Fox]

So the three girls run to her house, and they say, we saw this creature. We might have been the devil, or whatever it was. And they do. They. Do they get in the car and drive here? Do they walk here? How did they get here? And what did they see when they got here?

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

She said, let's go there in the pickup truck. And I told Her. I'm not going. I'm too scared. I won't come back. Then Louisa asked, please, won't you come with me? So I finally got into the pickup truck and we came back. We ended up stopping right here. Look. In that very spot, I saw the creature's track, its foot. I will never forget it, I swear to God. Oh, I'm still trembling. Do you want to see one toe, then another long toe and then another toe? Like this? Look. Smaller.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Roughly three hours after the girls witnessed the strange creatures creature, military police officers Eric Lopes and Marco Cerese drive down this road on the lookout for something unusual, when suddenly it runs right across their path.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

These military personnel exited the vehicle. These soldiers, but most notably Marco Jerez.

[Jesse]

Wrestled with this creature to bring it under control.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

It was captured by Marco Lisieres with.

[James Fox]

His bare hands, easily and taken to the hospital.

[Jesse]

So what happens is Marco Sharice, who's this soldier, apprehends this alien being, grabs him.

[James Fox]

Yep.

[Jesse]

Brings him into the vehicle, right?

[James Fox]

Yep. No hesitation. Puts him on, puts it on his lap.

[Jesse]

It's so wild. And then he ends up with this gnarly bacterial infection. And I don't want to get too into the details because Chris Ramsey is going to do an amazing follow up with you, kind of which double clicks on this autopsy. But you have the autopsy of this soldier who's died because he basically grabbed an alien being and it shows bacteria.

[James Fox]

Yeah. You have the guy, the founder of the company ipd and you could get the. It's an acronym. But the founder of the company, Dr. Giannini, and the guy that did the autopsy on the deceased military officer, Dr. Armando, participated on camera for this cut of the movie.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's amazing. You have the, the founder, you have the, the guy who provided the, the report and all the infrastructure for the.

[James Fox]

Report, the one who founded the company.

[Jesse]

And the guy who founded the company and, and, and the, the autopsy guys both saying. And they are using words like E.T.

[James Fox]

I get goosebumps.

[Jesse]

And then they're the ones speculating that the, that the claw from the ET must have punctured the skin. And it's like this.

[James Fox]

He said the bacteria most likely came from the. Under the nail of the ET which didn't mean to like, it wasn't like an evil ET that tried to kill this guy. He just like accidentally in the process of grabbing it. Yeah, he got a little scratch right under his armpit.

[Jesse]

Based on the circumstantial evidence that has.

[James Fox]

Come to my attention.

[Jesse]

It was a Very distinct and deliberate.

[James Fox]

Scratch on Zerez's skin, clearly inflicted by E.T.

[Jesse]

I truly believe he was a victim.

[James Fox]

Of, of VT's nail, you know, his sharp claw. Why was it so resistant? What biochemical gain did it possess to completely escape the antibiotics. It just sailed through, destroying everything in just one week. That's very, very atypical. Yeah, I won't go into detail about it, but basically, never before, never since. Yeah, they've never seen anything like this bacteria. This was an advanced bacteria that did things that nothing on earth, no bacteria on earth does.

[Jesse]

You see them in the movie saying that, and it's like, incredible.

[James Fox]

And it's not anonymous. They're not doing this anonymously. Neither is the neurosurgeon. Neither is the neurosurgeon, and he's still working at the hospital today.

[Jesse]

When we first started selling [e-mail], we had no idea how complicated and annoying selling merch could be. We talked to a dozen different platforms and companies comparing shipping tools, payment options, website builders, and it all felt like way more of a headache and complicated than it should be. We decided on Shopify, and within days, our store was up. Everything was running cleanly in an automated way so we could just focus on the brand and the vision we had for it. That's when it hit us. Ideas don't scale on inspiration alone. They need a structure, a container. Shopify provides that structure. It quietly powers millions of creators and brands. About 10% of all United States E commerce. From big names like Gymshark and Mattel to solo creators building from their bedrooms. Shopify made it simple to build a store that actually feels authentic to us. Which matters when your brand lives in a niche like alternative tech, UFOs or fringe science, and when you have a very clear brand vision. Plus, their AI tools help write descriptions, organize products, even clean up photos, so we can focus on what matters and what we care about. Building the best custom merch line possible with the coolest designs, like our UFO Cowboy tee and the Atomic Age tee. Plus, Shopify handles all of the unglamorous, more painful stuff. Shipping, returns, email marketing, all in one clean dashboard. It's like having a silent partner who never sleeps. Our favorite part of the product is the dashboard, which gives us complete demographic information. We can see where our orders come from, making it easy to know who our most loyal, consistent customers are around the world. That's just one example, but Shopify really makes your life easier. Bring your next idea to life with Shopify. Creating quietly Handling everything behind it. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start [e-mail] Jesse Again, that's shopify.com Jesse J E S S E for a $1 a month trial. It's just $1 a month to try Shopify. The state of the art solution in E Commerce. And they tried to suppress this report. And Marco Sharice's sister.

[James Fox]

Oh, yeah. Tried to get. Yes.

[Jesse]

Basically had to sue them and arrest. They're out of them.

[James Fox]

The wife couldn't get the. The. The autopsy report from her husband.

[Jesse]

That's crazy.

[James Fox]

And she was like pregnant at the time.

[Jesse]

It's horrible.

[James Fox]

You know?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

God, that was one thing that Dr. Roger Le. Thank you, Dr. Roger Lear, for tracking down the wife. In 2002, after a protracted legal battle.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The family finally received the death certificate. It was produced by IPD Laboratory, the Institute of Prevention and Diagnostics in Virginia.

[James Fox]

The witnesses that claim that Marco Cerisi handled a creature, a strange creature. It doesn't have to be from another world. It was a strange creature. He gets some unknown infection. You did everything you could to save him, and he died. Do you believe that there's some credibility to that story? To find Marta, the sister of the deceased military officer Marco Shari. That she'd gone off. I mean, yeah, she'd spoken publicly at the time of the incident. Year two, three, whatever. And then just kind of people pulled back. There was just nothing to gain and everything to lose, like, just going up against, you know, Goliath. And people just want their lives back, you know? And. And I went downtown and I was talking. I would look in the downtown plaza, downtown Virginia, and I would look for old people. Cause I was like, all right, these pop, you know? And I'd walk up and I was just asking. And I remember my sound guy was from Rio. And he was like. He looked at me, he was like, dude, are you insane? Like, what are you doing? I was like, you know, if I have a.0001% chance, I'm going for it every time. Right? And so I was just going up. And then I found this one old guy. And he's like, oh, yeah, I think I know. She moved to this location. Driving around a random goose chase. We're going to. Knocking on doors in random places. Three or four hours later, we knock on this one door. Door opens. There's Marco Shariz's sister Marta, who's like. And I remember my sound guy looks over me and goes, you're the luckiest son of a bitch I Think I've ever met? I said, not. Well, not necessarily. Oh, look, I was knocking on doors to find her, and her husband was very protective. And he was wearing this white wife beater and he was just ripped. And he was like, standing in the background like, you give me the nod and I'm gonna rip this guy's head off. Like, to me, right? And. And she doesn't know who the hell I am. Right. Everyone's paranoid, like I'm some American. And I said, I'm here to give your. Your. Your brother justice, to give your brother a voice. And that broke the tension immediately. Yes. And it was like, okay, let's talk. And then we. And then that's how I got in with Marta Tavares.

[Narrator/Reporter]

When her brother falls ill, she asks about his involvement with the case.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

And this is the story. The Creature from outer Space. Look, this story will be a big deal.

[Jesse]

So what? So one of the beings gets captured with a net.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

The other being.

[James Fox]

So the only two really solid ones that we have, but we have information on others up to five. But again, I only reported on two because that was the most concrete eyewitness testimony that we could get our hands on. And that was one capture in the morning by the fire department with a net. Apparently that one died, but that's the one that was crying. And then the other one, which was Marco Sharice and Eric Lopes. And it's interesting actually, because when you watch the movie and a lot of people miss this, when we doorstep Eric Lopes. And a lot of people, a lot of people criticize us for that. Like, how could you just doorstep this guy? You just show up at his house. It's like, well, we exhausted every other possible avenue. For decades, all the researchers had, like, he wasn't talking, period.

[Jesse]

And he was the military transport guy.

[James Fox]

He was the one driving the car. Driving his car. Fellow intelligence officer, police officer Marco Shariz jumped out and grabbed it because the.

[Jesse]

Being was in the way of the.

[James Fox]

Went right across the road. Right in front of him. Yeah. And it was just a couple blocks away from where the girls had seen this creature just two hours earlier.

[Jesse]

And Eric Lopes, everything lines up. Said, I will deter you with bullets or something. Like, he remove you with bullet. He said he'd shoot you.

[James Fox]

But before he said that, he's like, if you're here to talk about the et, he, he. He won't talk. He referred to himself in the third person. It's kind of like. It's kind of like the police showing up at your door. At a party and you know, and you answer the door, you see the police and you go, there's no drugs in this house. It's like the police. I was like, I didn't ask you about any drugs. But now that you mentioned it, yeah, it's interesting, you know, he said, if you're here to talk about the et Something like, if you're here to talk about the et, he won't talk.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

We didn't even say anything yet. We just said hello.

[Jesse]

Well, that plus threatening to shoot you, I think is, you know, not a normal reaction.

[James Fox]

He's like, they, he, he, he brought the ET up. We didn't bring the ET up. He did. So it's like read between the lines there.

[Jesse]

Tacit admission of something.

[James Fox]

Yeah. And when I was standing there trying to make sense of what was going on, because it was like everything was happening really quickly and they were talking and I speak French and I speak a little Spanish and I could really, when I'm in the field, I really want to understand what's being said. Even when I was in China, I was like learning Chinese. I just, I have to be able to communicate so I have this level of focus where I really try. But these things were happening really quickly. He was making threats, I guess about shooting me and shooting everybody else even. There was a 10 year old kid there. And I'm looking in the eyes of this guy and he's up, he's like up in a window on the second floor looking down at us and he's got something in one hand and I don't know what if he had a gun, whatever he had. But he's military intelligence, he's P2. Like, he probably doesn't have any problem, you know, I'm sure he's armed to the teeth, but I'm looking in his eyes and I hear all this commotion going around me. But I had a moment where time almost stopped and I looked into this guy's eyes and I just saw eyes of someone that I'd never seen before because, like, they look so grief stricken, they looked so sad. Like I was just like. It's like time stopped and I'm looking in this guy's eyes and I'd never seen eyes like that before. Like, if you can imagine harboring or witnessing a murder or something really intense and then having to be quiet about it because maybe your family's threatened or your life's threatened or who knows what, like, and you had to harbor that for the better part of 30 years. Like the toll that would take on you.

[Jesse]

Well, you see it even. Even. You hear it with. With what he says to you in the movie, and you. And you sense that he's been threatened, his family's been threatened, and that he probably feels like kind of half a man or something, like he's been. You know, he's been submitted through force.

[James Fox]

So.

[Jesse]

Eric.

[James Fox]

Eric won't talk? No. What just happened? I'm trying. What happened? Is that Eric Lopez? Who is that? Yeah, Erica, that's Eric Lopez.

[Jesse]

Me.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

He doesn't want to talk at all.

[James Fox]

Turn me now. Turn me. Okay, let's go. Oh, my God. That was. Just. Saw him. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, we'll go talk. Did you get him? Dave, did you get him? Please tell me you got him. That was Eric Lopez. Got him. You get him in the window? Yeah. If that guy had nothing to hide, he would have just said so. That guy was driving the car that Marco Trese was in.

[Narrator/Reporter]

We received an unexpected request for a meeting from the chief neurosurgeon at Hospital Regional. The same hospital were military police officers. Marco Shariz and Eric Lopes allegedly had taken the live alien they'd captured on the road. Dr. Italo Venturelli, the head neurosurgeon at Hospital Regional, was on duty in the ICU when he had the most extraordinary encounter of his life.

[James Fox]

In this room or which room? This room right here.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Feel the synergy.

[James Fox]

Affordable Helium was alive in this bed right here. So he saw.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

He saw the creature right there.

[Jesse]

His eyes, they were like a teardrops. Red, Much redder. Especially right here, you know. And he was, well, partially covered. He was right here, you know, but he was. He was still alive.

[James Fox]

He looked at the image in the eyes of the creature in this bed. And what did the creature say to you? I saw the red eyes.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

His face was white.

[Jesse]

His eyes were red. And he wasn't showing any suffering at all.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Now, if there was perhaps a possible telepathic communication.

[Jesse]

Yes, yes, right there, you see? As if to say, you know, something like, I'm perfectly fine. I've been well looked after.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

He said, yes, for sure. A communication, as someone would say, yes, I. I am okay. I received care. That's what he felt from the expression of the being, to speak without speaking. It spoke without spelling.

[Narrator/Reporter]

According to Dr. Itala, a being underwent a procedure by his colleague, fellow neurosurgeon Dr. Marcos Venicio Neves, who died in 2018 of a heart attack.

[James Fox]

The other primary witness was his partner, a fellow neurosurgeon who was slightly below him. Marcos Venises. And Marcos Venises. There's a lot to that story as well. He had a heart attack in 2018. He didn't survive, and he passed.

[Jesse]

And he did surgery on the bean.

[James Fox]

He did a procedure on the bean. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I know.

[Jesse]

And so he died in 2018, I believe.

[James Fox]

2018, yes.

[Jesse]

And Ventarelli, he said he was face to face with this being. And what did he describe as far as that interaction?

[James Fox]

He said that this is incredible. It's hard to kind of wrap my mind around it. You know, it's like I've had very. I've only had a couple of cases where I'm almost kind of pinching myself during filming. One of them was with the former governor of Arizona, Fife Symington, when He confessed after 10 years that he had not only believed about the Phoenix Lights case, but that he, too, was a witness to the event. And then he looked into it, and he. As a pilot in the Air Force, he said, that thing could not have been from here. And I said, how did you know that, Governor? And he goes, because of its size and its flight characteristics, it couldn't have been from here. It had to be otherworldly, is how he put it. And that was a moment in my career where I honestly. And I'm not just making this up. I remember sitting in my chair, and I'm going, did the governor of Arizona just say that he, too, saw it and that he looked into it and he felt it was otherworldly? And I'm like, I think I must be dreaming. And so I'm, like, pinching my. I literally grabbed my leg and I pinched it. And I was like, no, I feel that I'm not dreaming. Then I said, I bet the cameras aren't rolling. So I looked over at the camera to see if the. You know, and then when we were with Dr. Italo, the neurosurgeon in Regional Hospital, that he just snuck us in the back gate, like, you know, with all cameras rolling and the audio guys and everything. And then he starts talking about, like, this is the bed. This is the icu. I was like, holy shit. This guy's just going full Komodo. Like, he's just saying, the hell with it, whatever the consequences. This is what happened. I was here. I sat with it in this bed right here in this room for three to four minutes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

After several minutes of interaction with the being in this exact ICU at Hospital Regional, Dr. Italo told us the military burst in and took the being Then threatened the hospital to remain silent.

[James Fox]

Ask him how it feels to be sharing this information after 29 years.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Feels like crying.

[James Fox]

Excuse me.

[Jesse]

So this is. You have a neurosurgeon who's, you know, again, extremely credentialed.

[James Fox]

Everything to lose, nothing to gain.

[Jesse]

Had some health scares and giving you this testimony, and he freaks out. He's going to lose his job. He ends up giving you the testimony in the cafe.

[James Fox]

His.

[Jesse]

His good friend had done surgery on the beam, a procedure.

[James Fox]

Marcos Veneses.

[Jesse]

Marcos Veneses. Did he say anything about that surgery? Because what is surgery like on alien being?

[James Fox]

So apparently it was. And I'm not qualified to do. You know, I'm not a neurosurgeon, but from what I understand is that there was swelling from head trauma and that he had released the pressure by putting, I guess they do a little hole or something like that where it releases the pressure. It was something like that. It was a procedure to release the. From the head trauma.

[Jesse]

See that.

[James Fox]

I would imagine it was maybe something to do with the accident, I don't know.

[Various Interviewees]

But.

[Jesse]

No, no, but that. That is interest that sort of satisfies. Like, if I were to throw any sort of skepticism at this, it would be, you know, how are you dealing with alien organs? Like, what do you. You don't really know what to do.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, but if it's just a. Like a head pressure, you know, release or something, that. That makes some sense to me.

[James Fox]

Could have been head.

[Jesse]

How did he protect himself from the bacteria if he's doing. Was he. Was he just.

[James Fox]

Who's in the icu? Everyone in the ICU has full protective gear on. Yeah, because we even. Just to walk in with no patient, we had to put all the gear on. You can't go into the ICU without it. You got face mask, glove, everything, apron.

[Jesse]

And it was probably with Marcos Turrisi. There was probably some interaction with his blood because there was maybe a punctured wound or something.

[James Fox]

I wish like hell Marcos Veneses hadn't died for so many reasons.

[Jesse]

I mean, interviewing a guy who's done surgery on an alien being.

[James Fox]

I know it's really frustrating. However, we have not given up. Like I said, by the time your audience watches this, I've already been back. And we have a huge meeting with all the doctors, as many as we can get.

[Jesse]

So have you talked to his family at all?

[James Fox]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jesse]

Marcus Venises.

[James Fox]

Oh, Marcos Venises. Daughter Marcos Venises. He had a mistress and he had a kid with the mistress we talked with. With the. The wife. And did they all say that? No, they were very guarded.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

But not like. No, it didn't happen. Like, okay, well, you know, like, guard.

[Jesse]

What.

[James Fox]

You come in as outsiders to a place, it takes a while. Like. Like, it took when the film came out. And that was actually one of the reasons why the. The police officer, he's like, you're doing a serious investigation. One of the reasons why I'm talking to you is you. You're investigating something that I participated in. Like you, you clearly are taking this seriously. I'm providing a platform. We are providing a platform for people to come forward and not be ridiculed, not be laughed at, taken seriously. And like, you know, kind of like first time in decades. Right. So they're seeing this as a real effort to really get the truth out, and it's power in numbers, you know. And again, I think this is the beginning of the beginning on this case. I believe that. I mean, this is an extremely compelling, like, new account, new cut of the case. But I think it's going to get better.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Well, I think if you believe that that's going to determine the outcome, because you're the prime mover of a lot of this stuff, and I know you've given credit as it's due to many of these local Brazilian UFO researchers, but I think as far as mass exposure, you are helping them really get this thing out, and you keep going back. And so I really admire that. If this were a court case, you would have an overwhelming amount of evidence that something happened. Whatever the thing is that you're trying to prove in court, this would be far beyond the threshold of evidence that you would need.

[James Fox]

I think we could sway any jury.

[Jesse]

I think you could sway any jury. And so the Ventarelli thing's just fascinating. You end up in a cafe with him. He gets very emotional, he starts crying because clearly he's held this in for 29 years. 29 years.

[James Fox]

Could you imagine the weight of that on your shoulders?

[Jesse]

No, I can't.

[James Fox]

And you're watching all this speculation, you're watching all this conjecture, all this media coverage, the debunking going on from the military, like, excuse me, the witnesses, you know, adamantly saying, you know, this is what I saw, particularly those, the three girls, you know, and then knowing that you sat in the hospital room in the ICU with a live captured alien and had direct telepathic communication, face to.

[Jesse]

Face to face, man, eye to eye.

[James Fox]

Doesn'T get any more incredible than that. Like, as someone who's been around the world, interviewed people like, you know, you have close encounters of the third kind where people claim, you know, entities connected to a craft that's in the wild. I mean, it happened in Rua, that happened in Socorro, you know, lots of cases in China, you know, all around the world. But that's like people seeing a landed craft and seeing entities connected allegedly to the craft. And that's close. But to actually have an alien, alleged alien, in captivity and having direct contact, direct communication. He said, you look into the eyes of this creature and despite the fact that it was in captivity, it had control of the whole room.

[Jesse]

Usually the person experiencing the thing is kind of discreditable. Often they live in, you know, somewhere in the woods or something. The interaction occurs in some remote place and it's just this kind of inherently ephemeral thing where you have to take their word for it. I would actually say those people are sort of, of more trustworthy in some ways than like, you know, often people who are kind of insidery types or whatever. But in this case, you have a person whose credentials are unimpeachable. He runs a chain of hospitals. He, you know, people are, their lives are on the line.

[James Fox]

Works on people's brains.

[Jesse]

Works on people's brains. He's a neurosurgeon, he's a concert pianist. And you know, clearly all of the incentives go in the direction of him not revealing any of this stuff. And because he's had a couple of life threatening illnesses and scares, he comes out and speaks to you. What does he say about his interaction with the being?

[James Fox]

The being was very calm and it sort of acquiesced to being in captivity and it was very calm and that it was okay, that it wasn't suffering, it wasn't in pain. And he said when he looked into the eyes of read his mind, like it could just read all of his thoughts. He's like, it was an advanced intelligence. And I kept saying, like, what do you mean by that? He goes, there's nothing here on earth like it. He called it like an angel, that it was compassionate, caring, like an advanced intelligence. And I said, explain that. He goes, way more advanced than anything on earth, Way more advanced than myself, just way beyond. And he said that one of the last things he said was, there's so much to learn from the eyes of that being.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

We have so much to learn in the eyes of this being.

[James Fox]

Just looking into the eyes. And it's just amazing to think, you know, think about that. And you Know you hear other cases in the wild where people talk about, you know, looking in the eyes of the creature. Rua, Zimbabwe, you know, Socorro, New Mexico. I remember the wife of Lonnie Zamora looking at me and she goes, I don't know what happened when he looked at that creature, but he was never the same. Like the community, there's some communication that occurs with the eyes. And that's exactly what he said.

[Jesse]

He said, there's so much to learn from them. And they were advanced, like more advanced somehow than human consciousness. And then what did he say about the physical characteristics?

[James Fox]

Big head, almond shaped eyes, they were red. Now, interestingly, the skin was more white than brown. And I don't know, this is just speculation, but when the girls came in contact with this being, that was most likely the same being that he had in the hospital because the cha, like the girls saw it, they got within 10ft of it. It was really hot. It was a really hot day in the summertime, January, summer over in Brazil. And it was suffering. It was kind of exuding some kind of weird smell, almost like a skunk would when it's fearful or feeling threatened or vulnerable.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

But his eyes were red, his. His skin was oily. I couldn't see him with an open mouth, laughing, no, not happy, but sad. Hunched over, pale and sad. And he had no hair. And I saw that he was frightened, just as I was frightened. The creature was also frightened. The fear that we ourselves possess, just as we became afraid of this, this being whose nature we do not know.

[James Fox]

And it was suffering. And the girls said it was suffering. In fact, when and when all three girls came into contact with that creature, two of them, the two sisters grabbed each other by the hand and hightailed it out of there. And they realized they had left Katya behind. Katya was the oldest, she was probably 21. And Valkyria and Liliani, the two sisters stopped and realized, shoot, we got to go back and get Katya. And Katya was locked eyes with this creature and it was pleading to her. Because I asked Katya, what was it saying? It was like, I need help. And it was suffering, I need help. It wanted help. And I just thought, my gosh, can you imagine how different would have been if they'd gone with, if the girls had taken the creature and hidden or, you know, who knows, like giving it aid or whatever. Anyway, the girl, Liliani, Katya stayed behind. The youngest, she was like maybe 14. Liliani was 16, Katya was 21. Liliani ran back and grabbed Katya and yanked. Yanked her out of there. And then the reason why we are pretty sure that that's the same being that Dr. Itolo had direct telepathic communication with in captivity is because we did all aerial photography of the area. And if you look at where the girls came in encounter at like late afternoon with the creature just a few blocks away is where the capture occurred. It had to be the same being. It was just literally two blocks away from where the two military officers, Marco Shariz and Eric Lopes, captured the creature around six o', clock, something like that. About two hours later. Two, two and a half. And then they took it to one little clinic and apparently the doctor came out and took one look in the back seat and there was, you know, Marco, Cherie's military officer, with this creature on his. And he's like, I don't know what that thing is, but get it out of here. So then they went to Regional Hospital and that's where Eatola was. So it makes perfectly good sense. We knew that that creature went to.

[Jesse]

Regional and so it went. When the women saw it, it was like brown or darker. And then when he saw it, it was somehow.

[James Fox]

It was whiter. It was. It was more of a white. Big red eyes, just like the girls described. The little ridges on the forehead just like that. Spindly arms, same height, same exact body structure. Everything exactly the same. But the skin was more white.

[Jesse]

Do you. Because it was emitting the ammonia or sulfur? Because both. Everybody says that it was. Smelled like rotten eggs. Yeah, it was ammonia or sulfur or some sort of smell.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

She immediately smelled ammonia. It was like rotten eggs. A very strong odor. I had to cover my nose with the shirt I was wearing.

I couldn't stand the smell that was right here inside my nose. It lasted for about 20 days.

[James Fox]

And I have no idea where that awful odor came from.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

I even went so far as to wash my nose with alcohol and water just to get rid of that smell.

[James Fox]

Stayed in the sinuses for days, if not weeks. And like, there was another one, which was one of the deceased ones. We interviewed a radiologist. I think he was at Regional Hospital, pretty sure it was regional. And he said that the room where he did the performance of doing the X rays that stank like, for. They had to close that wing of the hospital down for days and they disinfected the whole thing. And he said it took days. And it was in his sinuses. It was everywhere. Did the smell leave?

[Various Interviewees]

But even after being washed and disinfected, the epidemic smell still lingered in the ward, in fact, our sector was closed because it couldn't accommodate external patients due to the very strong odor.

[James Fox]

So we're having a big meeting in a week. We're meeting with pretty much all the doctors. Wow. Yeah. Some of them at Humanitas Hospital have stories. Some of them aren't ready to come forward just yet. Some of them might want to come forward, but there's power in numbers, strength in numbers. And according to the book by Roger Lear, there was another creature that was alive that went under a procedure because a lot of them got hurt in the crash. Evidently that also had communication with the two doctors. But they're at Humanitas, and so we're trying to find those guys right now. And Roger Leer was contacting me. It was probably 2013. And he was like, I know you're doing something on, on Virginia, and I gotta talk to you, I gotta talk to you. I said, yeah, we definitely gotta talk. Let me come, I gotta go on camera. There's things I need to discuss. And. And I said, I kept like, postponing, postponing. I was so busy. I was working like 17 hour days. I was so busy I could barely talk. And he goes, well, you got really angry with me. And he was like, well, if you're not going to meet with me. I said, Roger, Dr. Lear. Roger, it's not that I don't want to meet with you. I just, I don't have the bandwidth right now. And he goes, well, look, take my tapes. Gives me his tapes. And I don't know how much time went by, but I don't know, I can't say. But I transferred the tapes, I sent them back to him and he died. And then fast forward. And that was very unfortunate. Fast forward probably 10 years, I'm guessing, or ish. I was making moment of contact because I. I was going to include Virginia in the phenomenon. And then I. I just couldn't squeeze it in. It was too. There's too many moving parts. Anyway, so when I was making the whole movie on it, I was like, oh. I was like, the, the Roger Lear tapes. So I got the tapes. He wrote a book, got the book. And the book was a transcription from the tapes because I had the tapes and I read the book. But there was one section that wasn't in the tapes, that was in the book. And that was. He met with two doctors from Humanitas Hospital, and they talk about a creature that was also undergoing some sort of procedure, Humanitas. And then all of a sudden there's this crazy thing that Occurs in the room where there's communication and weird smoke and just crazy. And the communication was basically like the entity saying to the doctors that we feel sorry for you, the human race, because you don't realize your potential, who you really are.

[Jesse]

Really?

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Which is the same message that the Zimbabwe. Yes, it's the same message what these school children get, where it's like you don't understand how special you are and.

[James Fox]

Your potential, true potential and stuff like this. So I was like, oh my gosh, if I could just get the name. And apparently Uberjaro Rodriguez, who was one of the leading investigators, a lawyer who's gone. I don't know what happened to him. Pat Cacini got threatened, he disappeared for 20 years. Uber Rodriguez, God knows what he has because he hasn't come forward and said yet Pacacini apparently was shot at.

[Jesse]

Really?

[James Fox]

Yeah, he talks about it recently because he disappeared for 20 years. Where's Pacacini?

[Jesse]

He said he was shot at.

[James Fox]

He was shot at and he had a gun and he shot back.

[Jesse]

And he says he would put his right hand on the Bible.

[James Fox]

Yes, he said he was. He would testify like. Like he would. He would put his right hand on a Bible and he would take a.

[Jesse]

Public lie detector test about there being video and footage of his alien that he saw.

[Various Interviewees]

I'm Vittorio Pacachini, I am one of the leading investigators of the Virginia incident since the very beginning. I know and I saw with my own eyes an alien creature, Captain Captivity and this 35 second video, it was right there, one of the alien creatures with two militaries holding the creature by the shoulders. The creature was really ill, was not feeling good at all. They tried to give the creature some fruit and water. It didn't accept. And the reason why they filmed this creature without superior authorization, it's because they were pretty mad that the American militaries were coming to Brazil to take all this material. Not only the pictures, the footage, but the creatures itself and the spacecraft as they took it to the United States. So some other military friend of mine had the chance without authorization to make this movie. And right now I'm willing to put my right hand tomorrow on a Bible and take a live public light detector test that everything I'm telling you is the truth.

[James Fox]

Yeah. Now, he grew up in Tres Corazois, which is like the region Minas Gerais, where as a military base is. So he knew all those people that worked at the base, they knew him. He grew up there. So like after all the investigations, his life threatened and all the stuff that Went down. He said he disappeared. I think he went to go live with his mother or something somewhere for 20 years. And then when Moment of Contact, the first version came out in 2022, that's when Peccachene came back on the radar. And it was like, hey, you know what? I'm ready to get back in the ring and finish this fight. And so, yeah, so you have multiple.

[Jesse]

People in the hospital system. You've now gotten military. Military whistleblowers. You have civilian witnesses.

[James Fox]

The guy that drove it.

[Jesse]

You have the guy that drove the.

[James Fox]

Being that saw it and drove it.

[Jesse]

To see, like, the amount of disparate, uncorrelated sources, I think is just unbelievable. And that comes from you literally touching down in Virginia and on a piece of paper, like, do you know what happened in 1996?

[James Fox]

What does he think about the case? Does he think it happened or didn't happen?

[Jesse]

Happening.

[James Fox]

What are your feelings on Virginia?

[Jesse]

You have two types of people in this movie. People who are extremely afraid and admitting what they saw. And all of those stories line up. Everything lines up perfectly, and it all lines up perfectly. Path of the ufo. You have all these witnesses and these disproportions, you know, places who aren't coordinating clearly. And then. So that's one type of person. And then you have the other type of people that are, like, lying through their teeth and so obvious, like the commander at SO Issa Lima. Issa. General Lima. And he.

[James Fox]

We're in touch with him now, by the way.

[Jesse]

Oh, amazing. You gotta talk to him, because even if he lies to you, it's like you see the smugness when he goes, you know, we were serving our country that day.

[James Fox]

National security.

[Jesse]

Can we get some. Yeah, can we get some details on, like. Like how you served the country that day, what you did? He said, no, absolutely not. And. But he says it in such a. Like a condescending, cynical, like, I don't care what you think sort of way, and then walks away.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

There was another part to this, when interviews were conducted, and that's when Euclides and Calado, the two young men from here, traveled all the way to the Sergeant's School of Arms in Tres Corazons Then they managed to ask a question. Then the sergeant went inside, came back and said, no, but aren't you going to say anything about the case? Look, if you ask one more question, you'll be arrested.

[James Fox]

We were investigating the case at the.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

ESA headquarters, the Sergeant School of Arms. And I had never been arrested for.

[James Fox]

Doing my job, neither before nor after.

[Various Interviewees]

This case, I was just having a normal, regular day at the barracks, you know. Then around 9 o' clock in the morning, we received orders, a mission to get some vehicles ready, you know, some trucks, specifically for an important operation. And that we, our unit would be deploying, we would be moving out, heading directly to the city of Virginia. We were given the order that we should proceed to follow a number of specific vehicles which were clearly unmarked and definitely not military. So I followed this military man, you know, who was from the Secret Service, passing through the city center near the hospital, if I'm not mistaken, the regional hospital. And afterwards we went to Humanitas Hospital when the instruction was given to. To back a vehicle up into Humanitas Hospital. When I was approaching the entrance, how exactly can I express of the hospital's immediate surroundings? I noticed a container, a stainless steel table with a container on it, you know, with several doctors and other staff members holding clipboards. As I was analyzing, it seemed that everyone else was also caught up in the same thing. And when I realized I saw something completely different, you know, a different kind of creature with skin that was very oily, very. I know, don't describe it as having a sort of silicone, like, texture. And that sight really startled me. But what truly caught my attention, what later convinced me that it wasn't a human being at all, was its foot.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Everyone was completely taken aback by the news. They were all incredibly, incredibly surprised.

[James Fox]

We have, for the first time ever, as well, we have the police officer which had been trying to get to him for so long. Marco Lao was going by his house, knocking on his door. He would set up arrangements for us to meet with him. And it was always. It was like slipping between your. It's like trying to grab a bar of soap in the bathtub. You know, it's like poo poo. Like you got your hand on it, but then it's like gone, you know. And that was the former Chief of police, Aguilar, Pedro Aguiar. And he had had a. Allegedly, according to people that tracked him down, he had a photograph of one of the things. But anyway, he described the activity at the base. He was at the base as chief of police. He was invited in there and he said that. He described it just like everybody else. Every single bit of testimony from separate people from all over the area all fits perfectly. It's like putting together a piece of puzzle, right? Not once have we had it any other way. Like, you know, we're putting these pieces together. So now the piece we're missing is on The American side. And we want to get with Humanitas Hospital. So it's like ongoing.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Well, the. The chief police says this is not a story, it's history. Yes. And, you know, you remember. Well, oh, yeah, it's a great movie. And it's, it's. He just. He said, you know, this happened.

[James Fox]

I participated.

[Jesse]

He said, I participated. Absolutely. And are you at all conspiratorial about the fact that he just died and that you were about to go in a couple weeks to go see him?

[James Fox]

Yeah. Again, I know.

[Jesse]

And allegedly he has a photo of the etb.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Do you think that that timing is coincidental?

[James Fox]

I mean, anything's possible. It's very unfortunate.

[Jesse]

Was he in good health, do you know?

[James Fox]

I mean, he's. You see him on camera?

[Jesse]

Yeah. And that was. That was. You filmed that? What, you filmed that? Like, not too long ago we knocked.

[James Fox]

So it was really crazy. Actually. It was just a couple months ago. We were. We were going to doorstep him on the way to Virginia. And I say doorstep and just show up at the door, right?

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fox]

And for some reason I was like, I want to stop and get a slice of pizza. And everyone's like, we got to keep moving. It was like 5 o' clock or 4:30 or something. I really was really hungry and I wanted to get a slice of pizza. So we stopped reluctantly. Half the crew was like, oh, we got to keep moving. Blah, blah, blah. Well, as it turns out, it was perfect because we, the owner of the pizza joint, you know, gave us pizza, gave us like, really good. You know, we took like an hour. And we just spent a really fun time having pizza with the owner of this pizza joint near the area where we're going. But it set us back at least. At least 60 minutes, possibly 90 minutes. But, you know, it was a little later. Maybe it was like 7, 7:30 at that point. And we show up at his house and they had just gotten home like 10 minutes earlier. So we would have missed them had we not gone and stopped to get that pizza. And what we did was, is we started talking to him at the door. Then we went inside and we had audio. One of us had audio rolling. And the guy in the car outside had our sound guy. It was remote transmitted back to a receiver. That was just the audio. And then we're talking, getting to know his wife, his son. And then I said, would you mind if we bring a camera in here just to kind of of, you know, document the moment a little bit, Just ease our way into it? No, that, that's okay. So in comes the camera. We're all sitting down, talking. And his wife. I'll never forget this, and I think I have a cut of it somewhere. But his wife had these, like, her eyes were so big and, like, kind of just like. And her wife was looking at her husband like. Like, just wouldn't blink. And I'm looking over at my cameraman, Dave, and I'm like, are you getting. You know, she's just looking at him. Like, I'm thinking, does she. Does she have the photograph? Like, does she. You know, I don't know. Is she worried that we're in there? Probing. And at one point we asked him, like, when things got more comfortable. And he goes, I participated. I'm a witness. He saw the creature under a tarp, maybe the bottom half or something. And then he went into as a military base, the activity, helicopters coming and landing. He goes, more brass than I'd ever seen ever before. Like, there were higher ups from all different corners of Brazil, all there. Maybe even implying at some point, the apartment. No. He did say the Americans came. They came to Campinas. He said that, too. Yeah. And took the goodies. But he seemed to be in relatively good health. I mean, he didn't look like he was gonna win, like, a triathlon or anything, but he was in. I mean, he's in the movie.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fox]

And he just died.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And he might have had a photo or footage.

[James Fox]

Well, we talked to two witnesses. One of the primary reasons that led us to him were two people that described. He pulled the photograph out and showed it, and it had one alive, one deceased creature, and it had military, police and fire department in the picture with their faces that, you know, that's according to the witnesses that we talked to. And when I pressed him on it, I don't want to push too hard, but I definitely pressed him on it. I've got the footage. He said. I said, well, when I talked to you a couple years ago on a video zoom call, you confessed that you had the photograph, or at one point you had the photograph, and now you're saying you don't have the photograph. Like, what's. You know. And I really pressed him on it.

[Jesse]

What did he say?

[James Fox]

He said, well, there's certain things within the police department that have to go on set or something like that.

[Jesse]

Come on, dude, just let it out.

[James Fox]

You know? And I feel the frustration from people out there, like, oh, there's not a picture. There's not a video. First of all, I never give up, up. And I'm not giving up. I will never give up. I'm getting closer. We are, as a team, are getting closer and closer and closer. And the developments that are happening are unprecedented. It's an ongoing investigation. I'm not giving up. I think this is the case that's gonna blow it all out in the open. That's my humble opinion. Because I can't think of a better crash retrieval case involving the Americans. It's recent enough or most of the people are still alive. Right. Like, unless you can. I can't think of a crash retrieval case with live alien better than Virginia.

[Jesse]

No, I think it's the best recent case. And again, I think if this were a murder case, you'd have more than enough evidence that the lockdown. Yes.

[James Fox]

No question.

[Jesse]

And so there's this. You want a smoking gun? Maybe you don't have that, but I bet you in the world of deepfakes, if you've produced a photo, the goalpost would move, and there'd still be skeptics who'd say, oh, look at the photo is blah, blah, blah. It's blurry. Blah, blah, blah.

[James Fox]

Unless the neurosurgeon who shot the video came forward. So you have providence. That would.

[Jesse]

I think that'd be pretty good. I think that would be about as.

[James Fox]

Good as you can get.

[Jesse]

I think that'd be as good as you can get.

[James Fox]

And then it is what it is.

[Jesse]

It is what it is.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Jose Fernandez. Is this air traffic controller?

[James Fox]

Yes. Who?

[Jesse]

What does he see?

[Narrator/Reporter]

His unit was responsible for monitoring specific airspace over the state of Sao Paulo.

[James Fox]

Do you know anything about this case? What I am aware of is that.

[Various Interviewees]

The U.S. air Force made a landing in Campinas. A specific aircraft belonging to the United States Air Force landed there in Campinas. And following that, two helicopters took off from the very same Campinas airport, proceeding.

[James Fox]

To an entirely unknown destination, which we.

[Various Interviewees]

Later came to understand was the city of Virginia. They landed, collected something that no one knows what it was, then returned to Campinas, placed it inside the USAF aircraft, and then they took off. They were gone. And the mission was what we were told was silence.

[James Fox]

So it was really funny, actually, because let's back up a little bit by a couple of years, and I was just talking to Lou Elizondo about this. Lou was pestering me before I had a final cut of the first version of Moment of Contact. And he was like, I need a copy. And little did I know about what was happening behind the scenes. I need a copy. I said, lou, it's not done. He goes I don't care. I need a copy. And I said, okay, sure. He goes, if you had any idea who's watching this right now. And basically, Lou was like, okay, this case is absolutely amazing. But the air traffic controller who talked about USAFE coming in without any government regulations, they didn't have government approval.

[Jesse]

USAF is U.S. air Force.

[James Fox]

Exactly. But I kept hearing USAF, and I was like, USoff. What's this guy talk? Oh, United States Air Force. The acronym usaf. And. And that was one of the aspects that. That Lou really wanted to show. To this day, he hasn't told me exactly who's watching it, but I think he was like. Like, maybe if there are certain restrictions on people like Lou or Grush, who knows? Like, they could show them the movie. Show them it's a compelling case. Eyewitness testimony, and then having the flight control. What do you call the radar control officer, the people that monitor the planes that are coming into Brazil, That's. What do you call that?

[Jesse]

Air traffic controller.

[James Fox]

Air traffic controller. Okay, so it would have been air traffic controller talked about this. You have to have government approval to land a foreign plane coming into Brazilian soil. And apparently this plane deviated from going to Sao Paulo to Campinas. And Campinas is where we know, according to all the eyewitnesses, including the guy that drove it, that's where the ET went. So for the have the United States USAF land in Campinas. Makes perfectly good sense. Like I said earlier, all the pieces of the puzzle line up. It all lines up perfectly. Like, every single person. There's not been one conflicting testimony. There's been a date here and there where it's like, oh, well, maybe it was earlier, maybe it was later. We don't know. But everything else lines up perfectly.

[Jesse]

And you use the United States Freedom of Information act to try to get information from the Air Force.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

About flight loss.

[James Fox]

You saw that? Yes.

[Jesse]

And so. And from the US to Virginia in 1996. And what came back?

[James Fox]

Well, I tried to cover all of our bases, and our team, we filed a FOIA, and in 2022, I think it was. Yeah, it was probably 2022, and I'd forgotten about it, quite honestly, because it's like years went by, and all of a sudden we get a response from the CIA, which is weird. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a huge FOIA guy, but I mean. The CIA?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Like, really? And it's basically like, you know, because I asked for records, I was thinking, like, okay, so let's just like, back up let's give it like a window of 10 days or whatever. So we know the incident happened. A lot of the sightings were on the 20th of January. So why will you back it up a little bit? Crash a little earlier? So I think it was like January 13th to say January 27th, something like this just to cover, you know, any planes that came in for the United States Air Force. Well, it was a 10 day window, two week window that landed in Campinas. Get all those flight records. Because I was talking to an individual who for a long time was anonymous. And then he was so knowledgeable, I was like, wow, this guy's incredible. Who are you? And he goes, well actually I'm a colonel in the United States Air Force, I was a fighter pilot, blah blah blah. And he has since come forward with us and he had a really dramatic UFO encounter in 1980 or something like that. But he was giving me guidance on like what to ask and where to ask and all that stuff. And blanket statement from the CIA basically that's like either national security classified or exempt from FOIA because of XYZ because of this 1999. Yes.

[Jesse]

Provision, secrecy provision.

[James Fox]

I can't even get a flight record.

[Jesse]

It's always a tell too when you request from one agency and another agency and then forward it to the other agency which the other agency would obviously have have. You know, this, this article came out in the Daily Mail about the Office of Global Access run under the CIA around their rapid response, you know, Global Crash Retrieval Team. And the article is amazing. Like it mentions, I think Doug Wolf as like the head of the oga and so they probably would have been in charge of this sort of thing. So the fact that the Air Force is forwarding this to the CIA is such a tell. CIA runs all foreign intelligence obviously for the US Such a tell that they, they were involved in this case. I mean it's, it's, it's, it's honestly funny. It's like an admission of, you know, involvement in some ways. You know, I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman and he wrote a book called Above Black. And he was a cool title, amazing title, insane story. He was a Air Force Electronics Intelligence. All of his stuff with, you know, his elint electronics intelligence career lines up with like I, I've, I've had multiple elint people come out after, after this interview I've done with him saying this guy was definitely US Air Force eland, like just very matter of fact, very intelligent, kind of on the kind of traditional vector of signals intelligence and he said that he was part of this secret NSA program and it was called Project Preserve Destiny. And he was supposed to do this kind of continuing elint education in Air Force. But while he was there, he was taken to this, this complex, this NSA complex at Maryland. This was in 1991 or two. And he was told to drink this, you know, drink and, and then kind of hook himself up, like match the tones that he would hear with these headphones that this computer would, would play and, and lock into them. And that's how he would kind of gain telepathic access to alien communication. And here, this was really interesting. Independently, this researcher, foia, the Air Force said, does, you know, just asking for information about Project Preserve Destiny. His name is Noah Roddick. I've been. Noah, if you're out there, please confirm this because I don't believe he mentioned Dan Sherman's name at all. They forward the, the FOIA request to the nsa.

[James Fox]

That's telling right there.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And the NSA of course gets back and says, you know, we can't confirm nor deny the existence or non existence of this program.

[James Fox]

Didn't they say that in my FOIA request?

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's the thing, right? Yeah, yeah. But it's such, the bigger tell is you have one agency forwarding it to the other agency. It's like, okay, that then the second agency was obviously involved. Why wouldn't the agency you sent the initial thing to just respond?

[James Fox]

Absolutely, yeah. I got, I get, I get emails all the time, people reaching out on all the various platforms. I got an email from someone and I could pretty much like, I could read it pretty quickly and determine, you know what I mean? Like from experience, I've heard, I've had been contacted by alleged witnesses and stuff like that for decades and you could kind of sift out the crazy pretty quickly. And I think it was like a year ago, maybe, maybe a little over a year ago. I got this email and I read it and time stopped. I was like, oh my gosh. And it was basically someone that claimed, I have the email, I'll show it to you offline. Claimed to have been part of the Varginh operation from Campinas. It was Yousaf. He goes, I was on the flight. No way. Yes. I swear to God.

[Jesse]

What happened? Did you get in touch?

[James Fox]

Well, so I was like, oh my. It was just this moment. Like I was just, I was overwhelmed with excitement. Right. And I gave all the details. I'll, I'll let you read it. And I was involved. This has weighed on me for almost 30 years in my family. And what? Yeah, you have to be very careful how you reach out to me. If you do it this way or that way, I'm going to cut all ties. Like it has to be this way, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'll. Whatever you want, let's do it. Whatever makes you comfortable. Then I didn't hear anything for about 24 hours, maybe a little longer. And this individual said, this individual said, oh, my systems were hacked. And that wasn't me that wrote that.

[Jesse]

No way. So did you do some follow up and research to figure out who this person was?

[James Fox]

Yes, but when this individual reached out and I have a proton email now which I'll provide to you, you can put it on the screen at some point. Yeah, well, yeah, because it was through Google, it was through Gmail when I thought, well that was silly. Like why did you contact me through Gmail? You know, that's easily hacked. And it really worried me when I got it. But I only way that was the only. He didn't leave me a number. I couldn't find him on signal like so I responded just the way he told me to respond. And the feeling I had certainly from his response later was that somebody, he got a phone call, something happened, shut this down. I don't know, but it seems so authentic. Like, it seems so, like this guy was really part of the, of it. I don't know if that guy is listening to this message right now in any way, shape or form. Like reach out. You'll provide the proton email that I'll give you could put it on the screen.

[Jesse]

Put it up.

[James Fox]

Yeah, thanks.

[Jesse]

Yeah, but so did you do some background research on this person? Figure out?

[James Fox]

I did through some connections of mine, yes. Was he Air Force Marines?

[Jesse]

He was Marines.

[James Fox]

Marines, yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay, and so is it plausible that what he was saying was correct? Very interesting.

[James Fox]

Yeah. I mean, Gabe, like, you'll see.

[Jesse]

Do you find any colleagues of his or anything?

[James Fox]

No. And you know, since then I was putting out the program and then in record time I put out the new cut of moment of contact. Nine months from concept to completion to delivery. Nine months, which is a history like I have had had so little bandwidth for anything else. There's so many things to follow up on. I'm going back and forth to Brazil.

[Jesse]

We gotta find this guy. Have you heard of Jonathan Weygant?

[James Fox]

Yes, I interviewed him in the 90s with.

[Jesse]

Yeah, what am I talking about? You have an interview with Jonathan Weygant which Stephen Greer edited yeah, in a weird way.

[James Fox]

Yeah, I, I was actually there for that interview and I, I went around the country with Stephen Greer just because I was like, this guy says he's got all this access to people and I wasn't even prepared for landing cases, let alone crash cases back then. I mean, I heard about Rosw, but I met him and he was in his 20s and I was in my 20s and I was like, boy, this guy. And he was so paranoid at the time. Yeah, this is the 90s. Well, he was beat up, he was paranoid. And he was talking about like. It was one of the interviews that I was on, Steven Greer's. Anyway, he left an indelible impression on me because I saw behind the scenes how terrified he was. He was debating on whether or not he didn't even come forward at the last possible minute. He talked about, about, I think either he was in the helicopter or they mentioned the fact they could take him up in the helicopter. It was a very big forest. They could just throw him out anywhere. He would never be seen or heard from again.

[Jesse]

Well, he walked right up to the craft.

[James Fox]

He went up to the craft. He said there was like a green liquid dripping out of it.

[Jesse]

He said there was an arm with I think three or four fingers. Like a biological piece of an entity.

[James Fox]

Yeah. And I haven't watched the whole interview since I operated the camera for that interview with, with Dr. Greer. But he left an indelible impression on me, like I was like, shit, because.

[Jesse]

He was a Marine, right?

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And I, that's why I mentioned maybe the connection with this guy reaching out to you, maybe there's some, you know.

[James Fox]

And the thing is, is like I wasn't really prepared at the time to process like crash retrievals. Anything beyond Roswell. I know it's been a kind of a slow evolution for my personal, like.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fox]

My personal journey, you know, because I'd heard about, I heard about. That was my first case where I was like, boy, this guy's credible, man. I mean I, I felt like he was credible.

[Jesse]

Seems super credible. This happened in the early 90s. He was a part of Operation Laser Strike in Peru. And this egg shaped craft crashed into.

[James Fox]

Dripping, dripping. There's something dripping from it. And he had telepathic communication with it.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

It was buried about a 45 degree angle into the side of the, into the side of the cliff there, the ridge. It was dripping this surplike, like serpent viscosity, this liquid. It was everywhere, all down, everywhere when we went down there because there was plants and everything. It was weird. It was a purplish green color, and it kind of like fluctuated, like, you couldn't really. When you'd look at it one time, then you look at it again, and it would like. It's almost like. I don't know if it was, like, alive and it was just changing, but every time you looked at it, you saw a different shade of greenish purple.

[Jesse]

And the being was basically sending him very similar signals that sent, you know, Ventarelli, the. The neuroscientist and the. The. The daughters or the. The.

[James Fox]

The.

[Jesse]

Sorry, the women.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

It was saying, help me, help me. And he started to walk towards the craft and they showed up, and then they. They apprehended him. They beat him up.

[James Fox]

People in Virginia are terrified that don't have evidence. Just their. Just their. The fact that they witnessed the event or drove the creature. Whatever aspect they experienced, they're terrified. Now, obviously, the ultimate holy grail of evidence that I'm bending over backwards to get my hands on, and we keep getting close, is film footage. Now, I know through experience that if I do get my hands on it and bloody well we've gotten close, I got something to worry about. And I've thought about that many times. Like, Could I upload it to a server? Could I send it to 10 different people? Like, how do I deal with that, that scenario? In fact, I had a really recent. I had a really vivid dream just recently. Really vivid. Like, in fact, when I was watching your show with Joe Rogan, he had that dream that. Really vivid. I had a really vivid dream where I was in. I was in Virginia, and I was in a very crowded area. I think it was like a conference or we were having a screening or something, and lots of activity, lots of things. And some gentleman walked up to me and he handed me a thumb drive and he just slipped it in my pocket and he just looked at me and he kept walking. I was like, shit, I've got. This has to be the footage, right? But in my dream, I was going, what do I do? Like, and then I just felt this.

[Jesse]

Dude, maybe that happened. So I just got the chill.

[James Fox]

Now I have a target on my back. Like, what do I do? Like, Like, I feel like I'd have a target on my back to get the hell out of there. I need to get it uploaded as quickly as possible, you know, go to a fancy hotel in Sao Paulo. I don't know. But anyway, if there's one thing that I've learned in this field, don't draw quick conclusions don't have that knee jerk reaction like suspend your judgment, listen to the testimony. Because it's so easy to go, that's impossible. That couldn't possibly have happened without the whole world knowing about it.

[Jesse]

Well, that's, that's. People have an allergic reaction to everything that doesn't fit their kind of mental model. The world works, but it should always, it should always be, follow the evidence. It should always be like, okay, what actually happened? And then there's beyond that, there's speculation as to what those things are. I often think even UFO researchers jump to the conclusion that it's a thing came from another planet. When you know, we don't know what these things are. That's why they use non human intelligence, which on the one hand sometimes seems sanitized. PC and part of some controlled disclosure.

[James Fox]

Like UAP was supposed to ufo.

[Jesse]

Like UAP is supposed to ufo. And I like UFO better than uap. You know, I think it's kind of better in old school. But like also I kind of like the NHI thing because it's. We don't know, we don't know, we don't know. And you really just have to follow the evidence specifically. And you have great theorists, people like Mike Masters, you talk about them being beings from the future and maybe they are being, who knows?

[James Fox]

I'll be the first one to admit, admit I have absolutely no idea where they come from, what they want, why they're here. Yeah, I can speculate, I can look.

[Jesse]

At like, I don't think the government is sure of that either.

[James Fox]

But you know, and I, okay, over the decades I've gone, you know, you look at what they do and that's pretty compelling. But then you look at what they don't do because all they'd have to do to, to reveal their presence open would be to hover over the next Super Bowl. Right. I mean, but they don't do that. They've done some pretty bold moves over the years. Like in the 50s, 57 I think in Italy, some big game they were.

[Jesse]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

You know, they've done some pretty cool stuff. I mean Phoenix, Arizona was pretty phenomenal. I just went everyone's under the night sky to get a glimpse of the hell Bob Comet and that massive boomerang shaped craft and other crafts as well. Pretty bold, pretty bold stuff, you know. But then you look at Travis Walton and it's like, well that's. They clearly, if you're going to take the account of seven witnesses at face value, they cared enough about him. He probably got in the way of the propulsion where they grabbed him, fixed him and then deposited him in an area on the outskirts of town that was close enough to like he could get help, but not too close to reveal their presence. They cared about him, but had they dropped him off where they picked him up. Right. He wouldn't have made it. It's a very remote area of the snowflake, Arizona, up in the mountains when that encounter incurred. So I thought about, like I think about those things. I think about, you know, Socorro, like Officer Lonnie Zamora, like face contact, you know, locked eyes with one of these beans. They got back in the craft and left like they didn't want to have contact, they didn't want to have communication much more than anything. Whatever happened when he looked into the eyes of these creatures. So they're in on the secrecy as well?

[Jesse]

Well, yes, clearly, yes.

[James Fox]

Right. I mean, you can draw that conclusion pretty definitively.

[Jesse]

I would say that many of these experiencers.

[James Fox]

Yes, yes, exactly. If you take the, their accounts at face value, that. But there, there is some level of contact. I mean, look at Rua. I mean, look at 1966 Westall, you know, thank you. Shane Ryan and James Rigney. That case is compelling because, you know, once again, it was a school. 10:30 in the morning, broad daylight. Broad daylight, 300 plus witnesses standing out there watching this disc zip around in the sky with a little airplane falling around it. And then the thing lands and then the kids run over and a handful of the kids see it sitting on the ground within 10ft. That's a pretty bold move, I would say.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

As far as sightings go.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. In plain sight. Yeah.

[James Fox]

Anyway, it's a complex. It's so complex. And I feel, I feel almost like I know less today than I did 30 plus years ago. Although I know the phenomenon's real, I know there's a cover up. I know that the government, I say no, I feel very comfortable. The government has got very definitive evidence about this, you know, bodies and craft and all that stuff. I just, I don't know what they know. In fact, I just asked somebody who probably I'll remain nameless, but I was talking to somebody that I feel would be in a position to know. And I said, I was like, how many people have the bigger picture? And this individual was like, and I believe me, I trust this individual. And 10, 10 have the bigger picture. That doesn't mean they have the full scope, but yeah. And I said, well, so like how many people know what you Know, he goes, about 30. I was like, so 30 people know what? You know? I was like, well, is it. I've heard that some people say it's a little scary. Is it scary? And the individual's like, yeah, I guess it could be a little scary. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little scary. I know. I'm dying to know, right? You know, maybe with the information they have isn't correct, or who knows? And I looked over and Leslie Keane was watching me have this conversation. You know, this is recently. And I see her looking at me across the room, and she's like, looking at me. She knows. She goes, I know that look on your face, James, when I see you locked, like you're. You really want to know something? She goes, I didn't want to interfere. And I'm like, just about. So I was like, well, what? It's like, well, what. What. What's the intent? You know? And then somebody, like, butts in and, hey, you know, I've always wanted to meet you. I'm sitting there like. Like, I don't know if I would have gotten it or not, but according to this individual, that it's not like I didn't have to fear for my safety kind of thing, and this could be all wrong. I don't know. But that the intent was a little scary. A little scary? Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Well, what do I know? I don't know.

[Jesse]

It's hard to say, Jesse.

[James Fox]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

I don't either. You know, and that felt like the framing of the Age of Disclosure, like that there was some sort of. They were prepping the battle space, and they care about our nuclear assets because it's just like we would do ISR on a foreign adversary or whatever. You want to know what they're working with. I don't believe that. I don't. And that's not to say, you know, if you're a hammer, everything's supposed to look like a nail. And so if your job is American national security, like, you know, maybe that's the way you're supposed to orient yourself towards this. But, like, I don't. I don't believe that. And I don't. I don't think that should be people's a priori biases going in, especially if that's their first touch.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Point.

[Jesse]

Point towards the phenomenon. That's not my personal belief. And I mean, look, you just spoke to Talo Ventarelli, and this thing was like an angel, and it was higher consciousness than ours, and it wanted us to know how special we are. And even that could be a form of deception. It's always like, you guys are doing harm via these environmental catastrophes. That could be some sort of deception where they're trying to clamp down and control us. Who knows? But I think, I think knowing that they're bad somehow, I mean, this, this thing's been, Whatever's been going on, it's been going on for a long time. I think well before Roswell, well before magenta in the 30s.

[James Fox]

Look at wonders in the sky by Jacques Vallee.

[Jesse]

That's a great example.

[James Fox]

Incredible.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Or Passport to Magonia.

[James Fox]

Passport to Magonia, exactly.

[Jesse]

So. So this been going on for a long, long time. So I, I just. The idea that there's going to be some sort of rapid juncture or break in their orientation towards us where they start to view us as some sort of big threat. I do think they do care about our nuclear stuff and are trying to enforce some sort of homeostasis of the Earth, protect it, perhaps.

[James Fox]

It could affect their reality.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it could affect them somehow.

[James Fox]

That's interesting.

[Jesse]

I mean, you'll hear things like, oh, they activated the nuclear sequence. Well, guess what? They turned it off after they activated it. You know, turn it off.

[James Fox]

In most cases, they deactivate it.

[Jesse]

In most cases, they deactivate, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know if I buy that, but I'm open. But you know, the one line that.

[James Fox]

I always remember and I actually, I think I. I think I got this with Tim Coleman I was doing out of the blue. I should watch out of the blue again. It's been a while, but. Robert Salas former launch control OFFICER I just love this line and I'm sure a lot of you have heard it, but I was like, well, wow, it's amazing these, you know, these craft were seen over the base and these nuclear installation during the peak of the Cold War, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, yeah, he's very calm. And I could see exactly why he was a laws control officer because he was very measured and every word was carefully crafted and he was just calm. You know, the kind of guy that you want in your corner when all hell's breaking loose, right? Because he's going to be very methodical, measured and like, not panic and do the wrong. And he's like, yeah, you know, James, message was pretty clear in my book. It's almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby, you know, I thought, wow, that's pretty cool.

[Various Interviewees]

Whoa.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it is cool and solid, reassuring.

[James Fox]

A little bit it is.

[Jesse]

And you know what? He's not alone. Most of those guys who are in Bob hastings Amazing book, UFOs and nukes say that that's what they. They're like. We don't know, but we think that the message is, is, you know, you guys are playing with fire.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And not, you know, we're trying to deactivate your tip of the spear defenses against us. Not that we're trying to dominate.

[James Fox]

We're talking between September of 66 and March of 67, we lost 30 missiles to UFO activity.

[Jesse]

It's wild. Yeah.

[James Fox]

30.

[Jesse]

30. 30. That's pretty. Pretty insane. And I do think what that guy said to you, as far as. I think. I think there is a tip of the spear as far as government knowledge on this stuff, but I think if. If, you know, maybe the biggest misconception of all is that they understand all of it.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, I think they're learning from you just as much as you're learning from them. I really do.

[James Fox]

That was really funny.

[Jesse]

Yeah, go for it.

[James Fox]

Yeah. Well, I was at this event and. And. And I was with Leslie, and there were all these men in suits, and she's like, hey, there's. These guys are from the agency. And, you know, I pretty much knew that, you know, they were very nice, and I. I didn't assume anything. I. I was like, oh, yeah. You know, and I've been investigating this case, you know, in Virginia. And they're like, oh, yeah, no, we know exactly what you've been doing.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Not in a threatening way, but, like, we follow. Oh, yeah, we're following this really closely. Like, for sure. Like, you know, isn't that funny?

[Jesse]

Yeah, no, I get. I get that all the time.

[James Fox]

Of course you do.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And I' on the inside, ask about you.

[Jesse]

Oh, there you go.

[James Fox]

Like, what do you think about. What do you think about this guy, Jesse Michaels? I was like, he's amazing. That guy's putting the pieces of the puzzle together that I just like, whoa. I'm taking notes on the sideline. That's why I mentioned you on Joe Rogan, because I was like, this guy earned it.

[Jesse]

That was the nicest plug I think I will ever get.

[James Fox]

You earned that, brother.

[Jesse]

I means so much to you.

[James Fox]

Earned it. It came from here.

[Jesse]

Well, I know it did. I know it did. And I got emotional just watching it, because that was. Was like 10 minutes or something of you. You are a rock star by the end of it. Because Joe didn't know me then, and he was just like, okay, I guess you love this Jesse guy. Thanks, Jane.

[James Fox]

Because I've been watching you work, and I'm like, this guy's operating on another level. Like, you're just incredible, the way you're putting the pieces of the puzzle together and, like, doing deep dives into all these different aspects. I was like, whoa. Like, this is incredible.

[Jesse]

Well, we're. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. And, and, and there's no way, you know, like, you were making movies while you were painting fences.

[James Fox]

Yes. And ditches. Brandon. Rebar Pouring cement. Painting houses, parking cars.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So, like, I think it's really easy to post destigmatization of the whole topic. New York Times article in 2017, all this stuff. You know, it's easy to make these YouTube videos. So, you know, I, I, I, I, I think, you know, all of us who are doing that owe you a huge debt. Owe people like Jeremy Cor and Ross Colthart a huge debt. And so, yeah, no, it's. Thank you for saying that. But. Oh, yeah, there are people like, me too. Like, uap.

[James Fox]

I get so many people ask me to do that. And, and I don't. I, and I. So many people, oh, I heard you're going. I always try to keep it secretive. I heard you're going on, like, can you please. You know, it's like you earned it. It's like when you called me and you said, thanks so much, I was like, dude, don't thank me, man. You earned that one.

[Jesse]

Like, yeah, that's.

[James Fox]

I meant, I meant, I meant it. Yeah.

[Jesse]

I really, I really meant the, the world to me. And, and Joe's become a good friend.

[James Fox]

That's incredible. When I saw him on your show, I was like, my God.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that's so cool. That was the most surreal moment.

[James Fox]

So cool.

[Jesse]

It was so epic because he, he's.

[James Fox]

Also respects you too. Like, he's got tremendous respect for you.

[Jesse]

I don't know. Yeah, it's so nice. Maybe both you guys should aim higher.

[James Fox]

But it's always nice to, like, feel appreciated. Everybody wants to feel appreciated. And, you know, one of the things I'd love to say right here, right now is, was like, you know, I really like to see more kindness between fellow research everyone, really.

[Jesse]

I agree.

[James Fox]

Especially with the people you disagree with.

[Jesse]

Yeah. You know, and less, less impugning people's motives and thinking that they're bad faith actors.

[James Fox]

Absolutely.

[Jesse]

Because. And there are all these people who I went into this world thinking, oh, but they're part of the insider crew. Crew or whatever. And then I'd meet them and I'd realize that, like, yeah, maybe they know a few, like, kind of spooky ish people or whatever, but they're really just trying to figure it out and they're trying to get the information. You know, a good example of that is actually Tom delong.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Where like, you know, I, I, you know, recently, remember when he went on.

[James Fox]

Rogan, it was too much.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

It was too much too soon. Well, well, because he was probably right. Right.

[Jesse]

He was right about a lot of stuff, I think, but he, he, it was too much where he wasn't in a position to. He could like, say a high level thing. And then Rogan obviously wants to get low level. He wants to know all the details. And then he would say, like, I can't really fully, you know, tell you, like, I'll tell you after the show sort of thing. And he was like, oh, I can't wait for the show to end.

[James Fox]

Right.

[Jesse]

But, you know, I find him to be extremely earnest and cool and smart and have like some sort of working worldview around this thing that, you know, seems to be pretty coherent. And I think a lot of his, you know, engagement with people on the inside side were his own just really vigilante desire to like, get a lot of this stuff out in any way he could. And he has some interesting stories that I hope he tells at some point. I want to shift gears for a second because you have just a compendium of incredible historical interviews and interactions with some of the people who are the most important people in UFO history. I want to talk about Philip J. Corso.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

You have maybe the last interview with him. Him alive.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

He obviously wrote the day after Roswell. He was head of the, the Pentagon's foreign technology desk.

[James Fox]

He was a witness to the creatures.

[Jesse]

Maybe he was a witness to the creatures. He says he was. But in the Day After Roswell, that was also co. Written by William J. Burns.

[James Fox]

Right.

[Jesse]

And that might have been.

[James Fox]

But no, but I interviewed him and he told me about when he was taken in at Fort. It was okay, so they started the journey in Roswell by truck, I believe it was, and some of the debris went to write Pat on an airplane. But I think the bodies, according to Corso, yeah, there was a stop along the way. In any case, he said that he'd heard that there were some bodies and they went in and they opened up with the caskets and he saw the body from the Roswell.

[Jesse]

No way.

[James Fox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

In early July 1947, Corso was post duty officer in Fort Riley, Kansas. There he claims to have seen a body transported from an air base in New Mexico.

[James Fox]

I went back and there was five crates there, like five or six, I think it was five. I lifted one up and here's this body there and floating in fluid. First I thought it was a child because it was small. Then I looked at this head and all this was only happening a matter of seconds. Then I put the end back down and the head was different, the arms were spindly, the body was gray. So right at that moment I figured, I don't know what this thing is, so like an intelligence business, I just better put it in the back of my head here and wait till maybe in the future I get corroboration so I can evaluate what it is.

[Jesse]

And you said that in your interview.

[James Fox]

Yes, it was really funny, actually, because when, when I went to the 50th anniversary of the Roswell case that took place in 1997 in Roswell, New Mexico, and it was a scene because we had members of Congress, there was Congressman Schiff, I think it was, who was saying, I don't know what's going on here, but I've been getting, I've been getting stiff armed by the Air Force and I'm making inquiries and why would you fly, you know, a weather balloon under armed guard like, you know.

[Jesse]

And he noted that all of the Roswell stuff was deleted, all the archival.

[James Fox]

Material in the game sent him to an agency, knowing that agency didn't have anything. And this was all happening, more people were coming forward and then boom. This guy, you know, Philip Corso, who apparently, according to him, he told me this directly from him, his mouth to my ears, he said that they rushed the book to print with William Burns because they wanted to make the, they wanted to ride the coattails of the 50th anniversary of Roswell and all these attention it was getting and that there were a lot of discrepancies in the book that he was upset about that. You know, this is what he told me. And I, when he came to Roswell, there was a flurry of activity in one of the hangars and he was surrounded by all these news reporters. Oh, my Lord, you should have seen. It was a feeding frenzy, like, And I'm looking at him and I'm like, I gotta get an on camera statement. But I was this little kid with a camera and I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna elbow my way in there, I don't care. And I fought my Way in there. And I got my camera and I asked them a couple questions in the movie. I'll give it to you, you can show it. And then the next day I found out where he was staying, what hotel he was in. And I just said, you know what? I went to the reception, I said, oh, I've got a meeting with Philip Corso. Can you. I just forgot what room he's in. Would you mind? You know, And I went to the room and, oh, we were expecting you, like, you know, and. And, oh, really, Like, I was like. So we sit down and we do an hour and a half long interview, whatever it was, I don't know, hour, hour and a half. Got a lot of stuff out of him. Again, I'm happy to provide whatever you want. And then Michael Hesseman arrives, German guy. And he was late and he was all sweaty and flustered. And apparently he had scheduled the interview that I got with Corso, but he showed up late. I showed up. I was in the right place at the right time. So I got this sit down interview with Corso when Micha husband should have had it. And as it turns out, he was all flustered and he was late and he had no sound gear. So I gave him my sound gear and I got about. I would say it's about an hour and a half. And he talked about why he's coming forward, because it was grandkids. And he's like, I'm old, I'm going to die soon. But, you know, I want the world to know this thing happened. I was a witness. I saw. And I remember thinking, because there was a lot of controversy after he died, and he was no longer in a position to kind of correct the record, I guess. But I believed him. I believed him. I looked him in the eyes and I really did believe him. And I think I still believe him to this day. And I think he got a really bad rap. And maybe it was too much too soon, I don't know. But he told me, I'm coming forward for my grandchildren. And he goes, I saw the bodies. Like, he looked like a little kid. Big head, big eye, you know, all the typical spindly arms, spindly legs.

[Jesse]

How many fingers didn't.

[James Fox]

I don't remember that part because, you.

[Jesse]

Know, it's interesting, you say in Virginia there were three digits.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And it was on the paper. It's drawn the three fingers or whatever. You recreate it. And I've seen beings in Peru that are skeletons with three fingers, the three toes and three fingers, and they carbon date to between 800 and 1700 years ago. And one of them has a tridactyl fetus inside of it. So there's inheritance between tridactyl means three fingers. So. So one of them has a fetus with three fingers and three toes in it.

[James Fox]

Wow.

[Jesse]

They all have DNA associated with them. And further testing is being done right now. So I'm like, okay, both of these things are happening in South America. Is that just a skeleton of what? And they. They have elongated heads, but they didn't undergo any head binding. They don't have any of the stress fractures involved in head binding finding.

[James Fox]

Wow.

[Jesse]

Super weird.

[James Fox]

Bargina, Brazil. Those things had three fingers and three toes. So the question is, like, they saw.

[Jesse]

Footprints too, in that case.

[James Fox]

And. And didn't Dave Grush say that some of the craft recovered were archaeological digs or something like this?

[Jesse]

He said Bob Lazar said that, but David Grush said that the. That the skeletons that I saw in Peru looked like things that he'd seen in classified settings.

[James Fox]

Wow.

[Jesse]

So that could be the same thing that happened in Virginia. That being. And we could have literal mummies of those beings for all we know.

[James Fox]

Bigelow. I remember I met with Bigelow. I got contacted by him in 2009, and I don't think I was ready for what he told me at the time. And quite honestly, I don't know if I'm still not ready.

[Jesse]

What did he say?

[James Fox]

Well, it was funny, actually, because he talked about the complexities of disclosure. He reached out to me through his secretary, and I still have the email, and they said, Mr. Bigelow wants to congratulate you on a job well done from. I know what I saw, and that's cool. I looked up Bigelow and I kind of knew who, you know, I was like, oh, wow. Would Mr. Bigelow like to get together? You know, yes, he would, actually. And so we arranged a time where I would go to his house. And this is like 2009, probably. And we had lunch together at his house in Las Vegas. And he. He starts telling me about the complexities of disclosure. Do you understand, kid? Like, you know, the implications and they're so valuable. Fast impacts on organized religion and this and that. Honestly, I hadn't really thought of the complexities of disclosure. And I was like, yeah, cool. You know, and he's talking about that, and then he goes, yeah, and they're walking among us. And I said, what? And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, I mean exactly that. They're walking among Us. Now, I think I took that and I put it in the back of my head because I was like, you know what? That's just crazy. Like, you gotta be kidding me. You know, at the time, I don't know. I took it with a grain of salt. Maybe they are. I don't know. I mean, it would be pretty funny if they were, because, you know, here we are looking out across the cosmos for any sign of intelligent life, you know, with the various NASA programs in, you know, looking for water or whatever, oxygen or atmosphere, you know, all these various planets, and it wouldn't be funny if they're, like, right here, you know, the. And maybe they are. You know. Maybe they are.

[Jesse]

Yeah, well, they.

[James Fox]

The.

[Jesse]

Hal Puthoff always talks about the UFOs engaging in what he calls signature management, where they control what they sort of look like or appear to be in optical and radar and that sort of thing. And so maybe that's happened, happening with the beings themselves. And so who knows?

[James Fox]

One thing that I've learned over the decades is suspend judgment, man. At this point, anything's possible. I don't know what's going on. I would love to know what's going on.

[Jesse]

I don't either.

[James Fox]

And I want you guys to understand, like, I don't put something out into the public if I don't believe it's highly likely that it happened. I'm not out there just trying to. I really don't. I care about integrity. I care. Care about perception. I.

[Jesse]

You're the opposite of a gr. A grifter doesn't start valeting cars and then makes the thing on the side because he's so passionate about it. What are you talking about? When there is no market for the thing in the early 2000s, once I.

[James Fox]

Pay back my investors, I always put my films on free platforms. Like.

[Jesse]

No, you just. You just told me before you started rolling. Your dream is to buy the phenomenon. How are you a grifter? You want to buy your own footage back because that feels more authentic. It's crazy. Yeah. Anyway, so. Yeah, that's true. Ridiculous. No, but it is these things. Same with this thing in Peru with these mummies. Like, sometimes when the thing is staring you in the face, you think it's too good to be true, but maybe it's just Jim Semivan, who's very high up at the CIA. He said. He says most of this stuff is a personal experience, says most of this stuff is just hidden in plain sight. And that's the conclusion that I've come to. Again, despite My, it's so funny when.

[James Fox]

Yeah, right.

[Jesse]

What? That. It's just, it's just there. Yeah.

[James Fox]

I was at the airport a couple years ago and I was flying to Arizona for a conference or something, and I get up to the gate and I was like, I left my sunglasses in the car. It's like, I can't leave without my sunglasses. Like, ah, I had to go back through security. I go all the way out of the car. Ah, my sunglasses aren't there. I was like, crap. Guess where they were.

[Jesse]

Where?

[James Fox]

On my face. Yeah, they were right there.

[Jesse]

Yeah, sometimes it's just right staring right there. But what, what is, did you did probe Bigelow more and you say, what did you, you know, what do you mean exactly?

[James Fox]

I talked about the implications. Well, I did talk about the implications of, of disclosure, the complications of disclosure a little bit, but in terms of them walking among us, I wasn't ready for it. I honestly wasn't. I, I was like, you know, who's this guy? I don't know, man. I, I, I, I couldn't dismiss it entirely just because of his position. He's probably invested more money in research with NIDS and, and OS app and a tip and all the various different people that he's worked with. So I couldn't, like, I didn't categorically dismiss it, but I kind of put it, I compartmentalized it and put it in the back of my head. But as time went by and I learned more about the phenomenon, I started thinking, shit, man, maybe he's right. Maybe they are right here, you know, walking among us. Wouldn't that be funny? You know, it's like, you know, it's right under our noses. There it is in plain sight. And that seems to make more sense to me because a lot of people go, you know, and I get, people go, oh, well, you're just, you know, you're including, you know, it's extraterrestrial. I was like, no, actually, I didn't say that. And I've never said that. I really don't know what they are.

[Jesse]

Well, with a guy who's transporting this, being in this, you know, in the military, cargo driver or whatever, he goes.

[James Fox]

I'll show you the email.

[Jesse]

I want to see that email.

[James Fox]

Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Jesse]

But he says, he says it was, you know, it was told to him like they were, somebody was questioning him. What'd you see? He says, I, I don't know what I saw, you know, like a burnt human being or something, because he was trying to be coy as if he didn't see anything. The guy goes, it was supernatural.

[Various Interviewees]

They focused on me with this other military guy. He looked me right in the eyes and asked what I had seen. I said, I think it was a burnt man or something. He said, no, you didn't see that. Say, I don't know if he thought I was trying to deceive him, you know, like he knows, but he just doesn't want to talk about. Was then that he stated that what I had witnessed was a particular thing.

[James Fox]

Yeah, super natural.

[Jesse]

Supernatural. Yeah.

[James Fox]

I was very funny in the edit room because I edit my own movies. And that line just really stuck with me. And I really wanted it to. I really wanted it to hit with the audience. And so I did all the subtitles in the film and I did it at my pacing. Cause I'm a slow reader and I always frustrates me when I'm watching a film with subtitles when they come on too fast. I'm like, nah, you're going too fast. Slow down. So I tried to do one line whenever I could. Two lines, most primarily one online. And when it came to super, because he goes, this is Military X talking about with the general meeting that he had with the general after he'd driven this creature from various places, Humanitas, ultimately campinas. And he's like. He goes, no, no, it's not what you saw. What you saw was super natural. And so I put super. And then a beat later, naturel, as he said it on the text. And then the other guy that I work with is Boris. He changed it to have them both come on at the same time. And I went, no, no, no, no, no, Boris. That was intentional. I want that word because it's memorable, right?

[Jesse]

Yes. It's a cool.

[James Fox]

It's a moment in the movie. Super natural.

[Jesse]

Yeah, sounds like a shampoo commercial.

[James Fox]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jesse]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's remarkable. And we don't know what these beings are. And you know, even on the, on the. I keep going back to these Peruvian mummies, but they have had these like, osmium and cadmium implants, like on their heads. And you know, I was just. I was playing around, I was asking cheapy chat GPT, you know, what these things might be adaptive for. And it's like, maybe they could create this local electromagnetic field which would define how the beings are perceived or like modulate, you know.

[James Fox]

In other words, affect the environment around them.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Crazy. It's crazy. Who knows?

[James Fox]

I remember, remember, what's his name? I'll think of it in a second. He was a NASA employee. He analyzed photographs. Maccabee. Was it something Maccabee? Bruce Maccabee, yeah.

[Jesse]

Bruce Maccabee. He wrote FBI UFOs in the FBI or something.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

But he primarily did photographic analysis. And he said to me years ago. Cause I was like, why are all the pictures blurry? Like, ah. You know, and people would criticize that all the time. And he was like, like, if they're not blurry and they have a defined clear edge, this is 20 plus years ago. He goes, that's when you should be suspicious because there's some kind of weird field around the propulsion we feel that causes a slight distortion. And so you'll always get slightly fuzzy edges and all that stuff. I was like, wow, wow, that's interesting. You know, that was coming from a guy Ph.D. like, you know, you have.

[Jesse]

These lensing effects from the gravitational bubble.

[James Fox]

And it was explained really well in Age of Disclosure, which I thought, you know, I. Red shifts or blue shifts and, you know, tip my hat to Dan Farah and Lou Elizondo. That was an exquisite accomplishment. Everyone can criticize how a film's put together, but trust me, as a filmmaker myself, I think that's going to help move the needle. I was very impressed. You know, people like Rubio and James Clapper and all coming forward and putting their necks out. So I'm excited about the times. And I. I feel like, moment of contact, new revelations of alien encounters. I don't know. The timing seems to be perfect because, like, Dan Farah's film Age of Disclosure with Lou Elizondo is kind of everything that our film isn't, and our film is everything that their film isn't. Right. So you make these extraordinary claims, you know, and then we're providing an extraordinary case.

[Jesse]

Yes, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

Because this is an example.

[Jesse]

One's top down and one's bottoms up.

[James Fox]

Do you know what I'm saying? So I think that it's a really good. I think the timing and the pressure that I. I felt to get because I didn't know when Age of Disclosure was going to come out. I'd heard it, kept hearing it was delayed, whatever reasons. And so the fact that it came out and then, like, you know, six weeks later, we're dropping this one. I think the timing is going to be perfect. I think the stars are starting to align, and I think that we can really get some traction in terms of, like. And I think, you know, regardless of what you think about the current administration, I think if ever there was a time for full disclosure, I think it's more likely to happen with him than anybody else. Else.

[Jesse]

Yeah, no, I agree. He's. He's more likely to do something out of left field.

[James Fox]

Rip the band aid off.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

Because Biden administration. I was so disappointed. Like, Grush came out during the Biden administration. It's like, you don't even know.

[Various Interviewees]

Address it.

[Jesse]

Well, the Biden administration. The problem with the Biden administration. Okay, right now, maybe, you know, you could argue that Trump has too much agency or something with the Biden. He wasn't. It was a headless administration. It was literally a. The whole thing was just a bureaucracy because you had. You have a guy who had dementia.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Who. And so then you're like, who's actually running? Oh, is it Jake Sullivan? Maybe his chief of staff? And then, like, what's he up to? We didn't elect him. Like, what's the deal?

[James Fox]

So the most dismissive.

[Jesse]

Nothing's going to get done in that context.

[James Fox]

I felt it was the most dismissive administration in history on the phenomenon and on everything.

[Jesse]

On everything. They. If you believe that America is headed in the right direction, then that was the right admin. This. You got a lot of volatility, maybe, but it's like some sort of Hail Mary where you might get some movement or something.

[James Fox]

But I just feel like it's going to happen in this administration more than any other. I really do.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Yeah. And I'm. And we're going to be doing things well.

[Jesse]

You have all these truth and transparency initiatives. I mean, one interesting thread is, like, Tulsi and Clapper kind of hated. I don't know if you notice that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tulsi's a current dni and, like, they're going after Clapper because she seems pretty amazing. I love Tulsi.

[James Fox]

Yeah, she seems, like, amazing. She seems.

[Jesse]

I'm a fan. I think she's great. I think she's. She's an honest, earnest actor. I think she's very brave. And, Yeah, I, you know, pray for her.

[James Fox]

It takes unconventional to get this stuff done.

[Jesse]

It does.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So. But she doesn't like Clapper because she says that Clapper was involved in Ron Russia gate and this whole kind of, you know, planting stuff on Trump's calling it a Russian asset or whatever. So I guess what I would say to the current DNI is like, okay, like, do you want, like, Clapper or any of these guys eating your lunch on this very important issue, or do you want to get front of the issue?

[James Fox]

Good. Idea. Why would you want these guys to get credit when you can get the credit?

[Jesse]

Exactly.

[James Fox]

I mean, honestly, you would go down, hey, look, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid and. Love the guy, hate him, whatever. He spearheaded something that was incredible. Right?

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

And he stood up for Lou Elizondo, and I'm very grateful for that. But I asked him this question. I recently unearthed it because I didn't put it in the phenomenon. And I said, like, what would you tell whatever president it was? What would you tell the President of the United States about this topic? And he shows. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to take it on head on. Like, don't be afraid to admit that this stuff is real. Like, I think that's really important because everyone that I've interviewed, including the governor, including senators, members of Congress, it was the best thing to their career. They thought it was gonna be the opposite effect.

[Jesse]

Right.

[James Fox]

But in actuality. And I even interviewed the former governor of New Mexico, who was a Democrat, Richardson, and he goes, you know, quite honestly, James, one of the few things that I ever did in my political career was looking into the UFO phenomenon, particularly the Roswell crash. He goes, you wouldn't believe the level of support I had from both. Both parties.

[Jesse]

No, it's. It's. You look at.

[James Fox]

It's one of the only bipartisan things.

[Jesse]

You look at. Luna Burchett, Burleson. Like, all these guys.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Are. It's become their, like, number one issue, and they are going on podcast tours. They're talking about it constantly. Yeah. And they're all pumped.

[James Fox]

Yeah. So Democrats and Republicans working together is so beautiful to see. Thank God they're working for the people.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So. But it's that. It's clearly good for their career. It's not.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Bad for their.

[James Fox]

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. No, they're getting notoriety and people want the truth.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

They do. And they should get it.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Like, I don't care, man, if it's a little scary. Whatever.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Don't hide. Don't treat us like children. Don't hide the truth. Like, it's so like you. You know so much and. I know what I know. Whatever.

[Jesse]

You know more than me.

[James Fox]

Well, not really, but. But you know what? I know. I know. Right. Because I went out, you know, but we. Regardless of it, I think that every man, woman and child has a right to know what the bigger picture is. Stop treating us like children. Like, it frustrates me to no end when you see, like, statements made. You Know, it's starting to be less so these days. Statements, they're so clearly, like, clash with reality. Like the crash test dummies in Roswell. If you've looked in a modicum of research into the Roswell case, you'd be like, you'd laugh that right out of the room, right?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Oh, these bluish dummies. And that happened, like, way later. And then Project Mogul, like, Project Mogul is like, later. And they're same balloons, but they're stringed together to make a bigger balloon. Like, if you look at all the facts, that's just. It's like a slap in the face anybody who knows anything about it, you know, slap. Like, and it's just, I've had it. Like, could you just, please, can we just have some transparency on this? Like, that's one of the reasons why I'm working so hard. Like, you know, I'm pushing now harder than ever. Like, I've cranked out since 2020. I put out the phenomenon, then I put out Moment of Contact, then I put out the program. Now I put out a new version, Moment of Contact, which. Covering all the congressional hearings really quickly, you saw. And I'm doing something else that I'll be cranking that out in under a year because I feel like now's not the time to let up, as much as I want to go spend more time with my family. And I do, believe me, it's very painful, like, to be away from my son and I'm missing so many things, but I feel like my. My whole career has kind of culminated to this moment right now. And I feel like we all as a community, need to work together, need to be kinder to one each other, need to respect one other, particularly with those that we disagree with. I really mean that, like, because we're stronger together.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Speaking of people who did not hold back on the truth, Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, you met him as well, right?

[James Fox]

Yes, I did.

[Jesse]

And he came back and he was just. From his moon excursions, and he was just completely adamant that alien life is real. I think he was in touch with various components of the government, maybe kind of legacy Crash Retrieval programs himself.

[James Fox]

He had that memoir his house.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Tell me about this memo.

[James Fox]

Well, it's the.

[Jesse]

Oh, you're talking about the Wilson Davis.

[James Fox]

Yeah. You know, covered that one.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Which is strange that he even had that memo, which is. Which is documenting Eric Davis in the parking lot talking to Admiral Thomas J. Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs should be in charge of all military technology in the government at the time.

[James Fox]

He's still around.

[Jesse]

Late 90s, he's still around.

[James Fox]

You know, he was. There were some people that wanted to subpoena him into. Into a skit.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And he goes. And I talked to the people that subpoenaed him.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And they said, he goes, cheryl, I'll come into the skiff. But I'm gonna tell you the same thing I'm telling you right here that I'm gonna tell you in the skiff. So if you wanna waste my time and yours, let's go.

[Jesse]

That's crazy.

[James Fox]

Isn't that funny?

[Jesse]

Cause in that document you have him.

[James Fox]

But he said he would deny it. He's like, if this ever comes out, I'll deny, deny, deny. But let me tell you something interesting about Edgar Mitchell and I. I was really close. I mean, I would call him all the time for advice, and he participated. I was interviewing him in my 20s. I went to his house and in the middle of the interview. And I was also friends with Buzz Aldrin's sister, Fay Ann Potter. Very close. I used to go to her house, I used to look at all the behind the scenes photographs of the moon landings and all the stuff. And she would tell, she said that the NASA authorities said that they were all given some kind of pill, that they would die if anything happened. And also, like.

[Jesse]

Wait, wait. They would be given a pill.

[James Fox]

They gave a pill like where they have to kill themselves if they missed the. If they missed the earth. Sorry. If they missed the moon and they shot off into the space.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[James Fox]

They were gonna. They would have something. They could die. Yeah, they could. In other words, they would have to have a slow death. They could kill us. That's what she told me. Fan Potter. She showed me all these pictures and, and that, and that if, if, if, if, if Neil Armstrong came out and anything happened to him, Buzz was not supposed to play the hero. He's supposed to leave his ass on the moon and get back, meet up with Michael J. Collins. Michael J. Collins, yeah. And so she, she told me that. She also told me that he had some UFO encounter on the way to the moon. I know. Yeah. And one of my biggest regrets was. Well, I have a lot of them.

[Jesse]

But you told that story on the last.

[James Fox]

Yeah. Was that Fan Potter? Never. I never got her on camera talking about her, her brother.

[Jesse]

But you chased Buzz Aldrin down. I did chase Buzz Aldrin. And you said, I want to interview you about UFOs. And then he goes, what did what would my testimony do?

[James Fox]

When I was watching Joe Rogan talk about. And I respect his opinion, that's totally fin. Personally friends with the number of people that landed on the moon. And I got great detail and could I have been deceived? Sure, I could have been. But I think about like when Joe's like, yeah, look at the three of them sitting right after they landed on the moon. I was thinking, well, that's the look on their faces of people that maybe they had a UFO encounter on the Lord of the Moon like Faye Potter had.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that's.

[James Fox]

And they had their choice and they had to shut up about it.

[Jesse]

That's the third option.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Because you have, you know, you know Beatrice Vio real.

[James Fox]

No. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You interviewed her not too long ago.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

She's amazing.

[Jesse]

She's spotted thousands, 10,000 plus transients every year from in the Palmar Observatory, which is the most prominent observatory. And this was between 1949, 1957. These things aren't sun streaks. They're not, you know, asteroids, comets, meteors, obviously they're, they're not satellites because they're Pre Sputnik in 1957. And they look like mirror, like light reflecting objects which are what all the CIA documents describe UFOs as in the late 40s and early 20s, 50s and they're in geosynchronous orbit. And so you, you. Yeah, and so you have to. And they, and they sort of pop up. Yeah. And so you wonder when you leave, you know, the, the Van Allen Belt, you know, when you leave the protective magnetosphere of the Earth, do you just encounter tons and tons of UFOs? And if you look at Bluegill triple prime, which was the first time we cut a hole in the magnetosphere of the Earth with the, you know, we were trying to see if we could puncture the Van Allen Belt. Guess what came out? U material. And Harold Malmgren, this presidential advisor.

[James Fox]

I'm so glad you got to him.

[Jesse]

Isn't that wild? And he said he was holding the pieces, the pieces of the ufo.

[James Fox]

It was an, it was an accidental shoot down. He reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down but debris or images? Debris. Wow. No extent handling.

[Jesse]

Wow, that's amazing. So are we just surrounded by UFOs and maybe that's the secret. Maybe the, you know, the Neil Armstrong cryptic speech about, you know, the layers concealing the truth.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

There are great ideas, undiscovered breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of.

[Jesse]

Truth'S protective layers are in fact the idea that once you, you get past the Van Allen Belt, you actually encounter just a ufo and then you have.

[James Fox]

Okay, another one very well could be the case. And all I can tell you is I was good friends with Edgar Mitchell. I went to his house, I sat down with him, and in the middle of a UFO interview, I, I, I'm sorry to ask this of you. I know you get asked this all the time, but what was it like to go to the moon? I closed my eyes and I listened to every, every detail. But that guy was lying. He was a damn good liar. Like, just me in the room with him and the sound guy or audio guy, you know, I'd have to dismiss him. I'd have to dismiss Fan Potter. I'd have to say, like, I'm open to it though.

[Jesse]

So here, no, here, here's where I land.

[James Fox]

Yeah, sorry, yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but.

[Jesse]

No, you didn't interrupt me at all. I'm just answering, I'm just kind of responding to how where you're at is like, I think the presentation of the first Apollo mission was clearly manicured and sanitized.

[James Fox]

Can I tell you something about that?

[Jesse]

That, yeah.

[James Fox]

So I talked to Edgar Mitchell because a lot of this stuff was coming out in the 90s and they were questioning the moon landing stuff. And I was like, yeah, what do you think about all this, like, imagery? And da, da, da.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

He goes, james, it wouldn't surprise me. He goes, we had Hasselblad cameras with no viewfinders, gardening gloves on, and like the whole world was watching. He goes, it wouldn't surprise me if they recreated some imagery that they could fall back on just in case. The biggest, most expensive endeavor in the history of mankind. And he goes, that wouldn't surprise me, but he goes, I walked on the moon, I swear to God.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

And like if we had one person, and maybe we do, but I don't know of anyone. I don't know how many people were involved in putting a man on the moon, but I'm, I'm assuming it was in the tens of thousands, if not more. And not one person from high level.

[Jesse]

Well, walking on the moon way less that you know. No, no, but what, oh, involved in.

[James Fox]

The program, the Apollo program.

[Jesse]

A few hundred thousand.

[James Fox]

A few hundred thousand. So is anyone from that few hundred thousand come forward and said it didn't happen?

[Jesse]

Yes, but, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

I didn't know that. Yes, but no, no Apollo astronauts, but some people within the NASA, some people in.

[Jesse]

Yeah. In fact, there's this guy who Rogan talked about on the show where he like did this whole review and he, you know.

[James Fox]

Oh, I saw that podcast that. Danny, Danny, Danny.

[Jesse]

And you had the Danny Jones, you know, but, but Bart Cyberl. He's not associated with the program itself, but there are, there are people who were. And there's the Gus Grisham thing.

[James Fox]

Right? He died. The. Yeah, there's a lemon on the thing.

[Jesse]

There's some weird facts and you could, you know, if you think that the UFO program is. Involves like so many people, like, there's an argument that could be made that the only thing that would need to be faked would be like mission control. And if you could fake mission control, you know, like all the parts suppliers and all the people like doing kind of the ancillary, kind of peripheral you have, you know, like the, the spokes of the wheel, so to speak, in the operation. Operation. They could easily be lied to. But yeah, I still shake out. I do. You know, I think we attempted and then like, you know, I did. There's. To me, I. Following the evidence. Something about the presentation of the whole thing clearly sanitized.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

The video's weird. The two light, the two light sources. The, you know, the.

[James Fox]

There are some anomalies.

[Jesse]

The flag. Yeah, the, you know, this is just like, there's a. There's a lot, you know, no dust on the lunar lander.

[James Fox]

I talked to a guy who was a scientist that actually coincidentally worked on that cheesy TV show I did. Ben is the guy and I was asking him about the moon landing stuff and he's like, well, you know, and he's total geeked out scientist. Like, he's like, wow. You know, we could see the, the laser. We put a laser on some of the things that we left on the surface of the moon.

[Jesse]

Yeah, the, the reflectors.

[James Fox]

Yeah, reflectors. And we have stuff up there and you can see them.

[Jesse]

You can put it. You can put up the reflector with a, with a rover.

[James Fox]

Yeah. So something went to the moon, according to this guy Ben, for sure.

[Jesse]

Something. Well, we put rovers to them up to the moon.

[James Fox]

No question.

[Jesse]

No, no question about that.

[James Fox]

Yeah, no question.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No.

[James Fox]

Anyway, you know, I. Again, going back to the UFO phenomenon, every time I say something's impossible, therefore, you know, it can't be, therefore it isn't, I've been proven wrong.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

So I have to open. I have to be like, from what I know, I believe we went to the moon. Could I be wrong? I could be wrong. And I'm not going to sit there and say I'm, you know, I know what I'm talking about because I really don't.

[Jesse]

Well, maybe the more interesting middle path would be their UFOs along the way to the moon and it's surrounded or something. And you have John Podesta, who is Clinton's chief of staff and you know who I interviewed. Oh, really interesting.

[James Fox]

I interviewed him. Yeah.

[Jesse]

What was that like?

[James Fox]

It was great because he talked about, you know, they. So Lawrence Spellman Rockefeller, who put together the briefing document for dignitaries and high level politicians and all that stuff. I think it was like a global thing. He apparently put significant pressure on the Clinton administration to look into UFO foes and to the point where he said, if you don't do it, I'm going to publicize the fact that you won't do it. I'm going to put it on the COVID of every magazine across the country, you know, blah, blah, blah. Apparently threaten him a little bit. And so Podesta said, all right, well the Clinton administration said, all right, pick a case that we should look into. And they picked Roswell because Roswell obviously, if it happened. Right. And so, and then according to Podesta, Clinton was not happy with the answer. They were getting. They were getting the run around the President. United States was getting the run.

[Jesse]

Yeah, no, that's right. And then Podesta basically entered a, you know, multi decade long personal search for this whole thing. And cool that he spoke out at.

[James Fox]

One of the National Press Club events. I think that Leslie Kane was involved with way back.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Back.

[James Fox]

Back when?

[Jesse]

Maybe. Yeah. Oh, maybe. I believe it. Well, they're, they're emails that have since been deleted between him and Tom DeLonge about UFOs. And these are, this came out over WikiLeaks. But you know, I think this, this exists in the form of screenshots or Wayback Machine or something. And it's him meeting with a guy named Bob Fish who I think might have worked at Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo across from SpaceX, this sort of mysterious federally funded research and development center think tank. And they're talking about fast walkers. And they talk about things in space, fast walkers. And to this day you cannot use the Freedom of Information act on fast walkers. You know, John Greenwald tried to do that. He's like the, you know, ufo, foia a guy and, and was rejected. And, and the Defense support program, the DSP is the Air Force's outermost defense.

[James Fox]

Of like, like 80,000 miles up?

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, I think a little less than that, I think, but yeah.

[James Fox]

Or 80,000ft. I'm so sorry, I meant to say 80,000ft because isn't that space?

[Jesse]

That's where space starts.

[James Fox]

Okay.

[Jesse]

But I think, I think, I think it's like 35,000km and up as geosynchronous orbit.

[James Fox]

I think that's where the detector. These fast walkers.

[Jesse]

And that's where they're detecting these fast walkers and. Yeah, interesting. Right, and so, and so you have the Malm Grin thing where you puncture the Van Allen Radiation Belt and that UFO material comes out.

[James Fox]

You have a Tic Tac.

[Jesse]

You have the. You have. It's just material that he held is all we know. Lawrence Preston, guys who ran the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque Branch.

[James Fox]

Didn't they scoop it out of the ocean?

[Jesse]

They did scoop it out of the ocean, yeah. And General. General Starboard, who was there, flew back to headquarters at like 4:00am that night. And William Ogle, who was overseeing the whole thing for Los Alamos Special Projects Division, writes about it. And all of this is like public. It's really insane. Yeah. And you have this kind of public fight between. You have on the one hand Jeffrey Cruikshank, who's like a nuclear expert UFO researcher in Australia, and then Dean Johnson and Merrick von Rennenkamp. They say it's the booster, but he's sure that it can't be the booster. It has to be some sort of anomalous UFO material. But you have video of something coming out and then you have this other video where it looks like there's a white triangle superimposing the UFO coming out of the nuclear blast plume.

[James Fox]

Wow.

[Jesse]

It's crazy. It's crazy. And that's where the debate gets a little above my head. As far as, you know, the Merrick and Dean Johnson versus the Cruikshank. I don't know if that. But we need more eyes on that. It's an important thing.

[James Fox]

When you interviewed Malgrum.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And I was watching the interview, I was like, I'm so glad you got to him. I was thinking to myself, and this is just me speculating, whatever. I was thinking, like about that launch of the Atlas rocket at Vandenberg circa 1964. 64. With the dummy warhead on it. Right. No wonder if it's true what Malgram says. Right. They detonated that up into. Was it substituted or.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it was a high altitude nuclear. Yeah. Little subspace. Yeah.

[James Fox]

Right.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

So if that's the case. No wonder why they were shooting at the dummy warhead, according to Jacobs. Right, Exactly. The footage that he captured. If I. If one of my comrades was shot down by one of these silly, like, missile launch with a nuclear. You know what I mean? Like, I'd probably shoot it out of the sky too. Which is exactly what they did. I was like, wow, that makes sense. No wonder why they shot it out of the sky.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

It took some of their people down.

[Jesse]

Yes. And that. And then you.

[James Fox]

Then you have disabling nukes. Shooting that out of the sky, like, that's pretty phenomenal.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's really phenomenal.

[James Fox]

And Lou Elizondo said he saw that footage.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I know. He says he saw that footage. He says he knows where it is. And I'm like, we get that.

[James Fox]

We saw the video.

[Jesse]

That's crazy, because that's what I was going to ask you. He said he was like, I think Lou has seen the video. So you've seen the video? Yeah. So you know this is a real thing.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Oh, my God. Is. Is the video. Do you still have the video or.

[James Fox]

I don't have it. Was.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Was in Pentagon with all my other files when.

[James Fox]

When the Pentagon said they deleted everything. Of course we know they really didn't.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Because really after they.

[James Fox]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jesse]

Oh, my God.

[James Fox]

Know where everything is. And then, and then when I talked to a buddy of mine, apparently somebody went in and they. They cleaned everything out. But what they don't realize is that there's backups in a whole lot of places at that point. Okay. The problem is if I say it right now, they'll go into mysteriously, a bunch of people's computers will wind up disappearing tomorrow. So I'm just going to wait until the right time and, you know, that stuff is alive and well. We need to provide people like Lou and Grush immunity so they can give us all those details that we need that. That needs to happen. We need to figure that out.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Community.

[Jesse]

Give it like, if the presidential executive order say everything you know, and let's. Let's reverse it. You have to say everything you know or you're in trou. Yes, everything you know that doesn't compromise some, like, specific vehicle you're working on that's going to confer a tactical advantage to Russia or China. All the science, let it out and flip it and say, if you don't say everything you know, you're going to get in trouble. Yeah, let's do that.

[James Fox]

I. I mean, you know, look, we've Got nothing to lose, everything to gain. Obviously, there are certain aspects of national security. I understand that. They don't want to get in the hands of the wrong people. I get it. You know, if the accounts are to be believed, that, you know, Russia's obviously trying to figure this out, but it's like.

[Jesse]

It's like nuclear trade secrets. We don't let out the trade secrets, but nuclear science is taught at universities across the United States.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

This should be treated the exact same way.

[James Fox]

Totally agree. I totally agree. And like, you know, like I said earlier in the show, if you don't believe Lou, if you don't believe Grush, you don't believe Hal, you don't believe Eric Davis or any of these other alleged whistleblowers. Let's give them immunity and let's put them on the scene.

[Jesse]

Well, that's Eric Davis in your recent moment of contact. He's asking for that. He's saying, says, literally, give me blanket immunity and I will say everything I know.

[James Fox]

Yep. He'll testify tomorrow in an open book under oath, under oath, to a bipartisan group of lawmakers openly, for the whole world to see.

[Jesse]

And he says he has all this data on crash retrievals, alien bodies.

[James Fox]

Criticize him all you want.

[Jesse]

He says, I swear on my family's life that this is the truth.

[James Fox]

He said, on my children's life.

[Jesse]

On my children's life.

[James Fox]

Where's the proof? We have alien spaceships in our possession. We. We have bodies. Where? And why can't I get the specifics to verify those claims?

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

If the President of the United States issued an executive order that absolves me of all of my TSSCI NDAs. NDAs are non disclosure agreements. Those are the agreements we have to sign for every compartment in our SCI clearances. So if the President waives or absolves my obligation to those NDAs and I get subpoenaed by Congress, somebody on Capitol Hill, some committee, either in the Senate or the House or the both, to reveal everything I know that I learned from my investigations, both unclassified and classified into the legacy uap, Crash Retrieval and hardware, Reverse engineering and NHI programs. I would do so if I could be waived from that or absolved in some fashion by presidential order, and if Congress subpoenas me, yes, I would go and tell them everything I know. This reality is very hard, very physical, very real. And this type of evidence, you can't come by in the open literature. It's not public. It's classified. And I can't discuss what it was But I can tell you, yeah, it's a crash retrieval. There's a craft and there's alien bodies. That's all I can say about it.

[James Fox]

You swear on your life that you saw those pictures?

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

Oh, I swear in my life and everybody's. My children's life. So, yeah, I'm absolutely telling you the truth. I saw the evidence, and it's stark, just wild.

[Jesse]

So, yes, that needs.

[James Fox]

Thank you for remembering that. That's a great line.

[Jesse]

Absolutely.

[James Fox]

I swear on my children. Who's going to say that?

[Jesse]

Yeah, I mean, who would say that you're either. You're either a sick person psychopath or. Or you're.

[James Fox]

Or you're telling the truth.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And speaking of, you know, the idea of.

[James Fox]

Speaking of psychopaths.

[Jesse]

Speaking of psychopaths. Yeah. No, speaking of your. Your mentioning of Bob Jacobs, VANDENBERG Case in 64, where you have this dummy nuclear warhead getting shot out of the sky.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

This is where it gets really, really trippy because either they are defending against some sort of incursion in their airspace, or they're actually provoking some of this occurring. So this is really strange, but Malmgren, on his deathbed, told Pippa, his daughter that he saw an interview from one of the surviving beings from Roswell. And that.

[James Fox]

Taped.

[Jesse]

What's that?

[James Fox]

A taped interview.

[Jesse]

A taped interview.

[James Fox]

Okay, okay. So he saw. Sorry, just. Abundance of clarity.

[Jesse]

No, no. A taped interview.

[James Fox]

So Malgram, on his deathbed.

[Jesse]

Yes. Told his daughter, Pippin, who's alive, and a friend of mine, that he watched.

[James Fox]

A tape, a taped interview with a captured alien.

[Jesse]

With a captured alien. And guess what? Guess what the alien said. He. The alien gave them the idea to do bluegill triple triple prime and have this, you know, specialized X ray system that would not only be used as missile defense, but be used to take out UFO material out of the sky to be reverse engineered. So it's. That. Isn't that like a.

[James Fox]

Like a deal? Like what?

[Jesse]

Like giving him information as to how to retrieve the material. So you get into this weird thing.

[James Fox]

Where, like, it's better you see that on camera.

[Jesse]

I know. Well, there's so much.

[James Fox]

Why would his daughter make that up?

[Jesse]

No, why would she make it up?

[James Fox]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Jesse]

Well, it's all these things. And.

[James Fox]

And.

[Jesse]

And there was kind of a takedown of the. You know, there's all these people criticizing Malm Grin afterwards. They said, well, yeah, well, I can also.

[James Fox]

I mean, when they're dead, sure.

[Jesse]

I can also crush all their argument. They literally, you Know, this is, you know, I don't want to be too tribalistic. Like, I, I do think all of this stuff has to be thought about probabilistically. And like, if there are good points, please, against this guy, there's no, there are no sacred cows. He's making an extraordinary claim. But this guy was an elite statesman who knew people, you know, at the top of the. Of the chain. Like literally, you know, new New Nixon personally. He was lbj, jfk, Nixon and Ford, you know, presidential advisor.

[James Fox]

And he said he's done it anybody.

[Jesse]

He was. He was a little bit junior in the, in the JFK administration and was more, you know, in touch with. With Shriver, but like, yeah, was not. Was not a nobody. You know, talks about stories with the, you know, Russian Foreign Minister Dobrynin. His mentor was Richard Bissell, who was founded Area 51 and was the Deputy Director of the CIA. The number two at the entire CIA. We have diaries of his that say meeting with Bissell all over his. His diary, his journal. So he definitely knew Bissell. If he had gotten his Q clearance through the CIA, there's no way to use the Freedom of Information Act.

[James Fox]

Is that the highest level clearance? Q?

[Jesse]

Yes. Well, I think there possibly, you know, UAP group talks about different designations within Q clearance, like a SAP. Like, I think there's this like special foreign intelligence design. So the CIA works with the DOE and there's a counterintel division actually of the CIA that like works with the Department of Energy. And I think there are different Q clearances you can have because do.

[James Fox]

Sorry, Department of Of Energy. Because I was told, I think it was Chris Mellon was telling me this, that they hide things because anything nuclear would be national security.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

So if you look under the Department.

[Jesse]

Of Energy, if you look at this.

[James Fox]

So you can hide these saps and woo saps in the. Under the Department of Energy. That is that.

[Jesse]

Yeah. But you look at the special definition of nuclear material. 1954 Atomic Energy Act. It's anything emitting any sort of radiation, alpha, beta, gamma radiation, whatever, upon retrieval of that thing that is restricted data. So it's born secret.

[James Fox]

Automatically.

[Jesse]

Automatically secret. So if you're an aerospace contractor, you don't need some sort of official clearance designation. You know, you just automatic. You're automatically.

[James Fox]

That is under that envelope or that umbrella.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Wow.

[Jesse]

So. So, so that you have this. This, you know, this blog came out trying to debunk Malmgren. But if he got a SKU clearance through the CIA, they'd have no. No idea that you know, they. You can't use a freedom of information against that. This was at the time where, you know, not official covers. This idea of being a knock for the CIA was like, rampant, like a ton of these guys. And he was at a federal funded research and development center called the ida, the Institute for Defense Analysis, which has instituted every. Or has helped with every single missile defense system that the US has built since then. Since Blue go triple prime. And he said in a 2024 interview before he interviewed with me that his work at the IDA was actually a cover for what he was doing for the National Security Council in the White House. So you have all these arguments that, oh, he's just at the ida. He's like some junior guy. Like, no, he's already talked about this. And his mentor, by the way, was extremely high up at the CIA.

[James Fox]

Dude, see, this is what you're really good at. You're really good at putting these complex pieces of the puzzle together. It's like, oh, this is like this. That makes sense. And this is over here. It's like, duh, what's important? Well, you're totally important. Are you kidding me? And I deep dives. That you do. Just like when I put the maps up for Virginia, this witness was here. This witness turns out to be there. It's like, oh, my gosh, it all lines up.

[Jesse]

You have a full picture.

[James Fox]

You have a full picture. Just like what you're doing on the inside. Like, you're creating that full picture, which is mandatory for what you do. Like when I'm in the field putting the pieces of puzzles together. When we met Italo, it made perfectly good sense because we knew for Dec. For decades that it went initially alive to regional. Right then it was Humanitas. Now we have to get to Humanitas. We're working on that now. Like, you know what I mean? You're putting the pieces and they're all. It's all painting the picture. Right. Like, it's incredible just like what you're doing. Yeah, you're putting all the pieces of puzzles together. Where are the different. It's incredible. And I. I'm always impressed when I watch how you do that. Like, I'm doing it in my little way and you're doing, you know, we're all doing it. Yeah, no, it's really cool to watch. That was like, up. There was a couple of interview deep dive interviews that you did that I was just like, holy smokes. You know, it was very impressive with Hal. Or was it Hal, Eric Davis.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

That, that whole thing, just the deep dives and the stuff that you do, is very impressive to watch.

[Jesse]

Well, I'm excited. It's fun to watch all this stuff accelerate.

[James Fox]

And we're in this together.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

We support each other.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

I remind people outside out there that we're stronger together. Be kind, particularly those you disagree with. It's okay that we disagree. That's fine.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

Nothing wrong with that.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

And, you know, I'm not out here screaming ET from the hilltops. I'm not. I'm curious. I want to know desperately.

[Jesse]

And it's.

[James Fox]

What's behind it all.

[Jesse]

It's easy to. It's easier and lazier to impugn somebody's motives and say that they're a bad actor than to actually tackle the substance.

[James Fox]

Or give them a platform so they can. They can cough up the goods.

[Jesse]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Fox]

Why not?

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes.

[James Fox]

So I'm just going to criticize you, and I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to, you know, continue. Like, people give these breadcrumbs, I think about, like David Grusch, for instance, you know, he comes forward, it's like, all right, well, you know what? You know, extraordinary claims, if you want to say, you know, give us the extraordinary evidence. But why not create that platform for David Grusch to be able to do that? He's refrained, he's restrained, he's scared for his safety, his family's safety. Like, he could get locked up. I mean, those are real concerns that these people have.

[Jesse]

Yeah. You think he's going to fall in his face? Okay. Give him the one time clearance, let him go.

[James Fox]

That's exactly right. Like, or put him out to testify under oath. Like, why wouldn't we do that?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

You know, so.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

Anyway, I. Yeah.

[Jesse]

Have. Okay.

[James Fox]

Yes, sir.

[Jesse]

You got. I got more for you because you've seen so much history, so. Have you ever seen a saucer and a hanger?

[James Fox]

I wish. Are you kidding me? Come on.

[Jesse]

Because of all people, if I was on the inside, I'd say. I'd say, James, I can neither. You've done your work.

[James Fox]

I wish.

[Jesse]

Have you ever been taken into a skiff?

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

You have?

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Have you ever seen anything interesting in a skiff?

[James Fox]

Yes. Yes.

[Jesse]

What did you see?

[James Fox]

I. I can't talk about that because they asked me not to, but I said if they. That goes out, that's not going to look good for you guys. That's. That flies in the face of all the testimony that I've ever Heard so.

[Jesse]

Not as good as things you've seen in the open source.

[James Fox]

Yeah, it was really funny too, because I. I just put out the program and I met with a number of government insiders that are intel insiders, excuse me, that describe the exact computer, the computer that has access to all the good, you know what I mean, UFO files and stuff like that. And I was sitting there looking at it in the skiff and I'm thinking, dude, if I can have just a few minutes with that computer. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, it was really crazy. I was one of kind of a pinch yourself moment when I was in there with John Koskowski, the, The new head of Arrow, which I liked him, actually.

[Jesse]

You thought he was cool?

[James Fox]

I did. Way cooler than Sean Kirkpatrick, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah, Sean Kirkpatrick, man. That guy that I. Maybe that guy was read in or something. I don't know. That guy was. I don't trust that guy at all.

[Jesse]

I don't either.

[James Fox]

John Koskowski was really nice guy. I looked him in the eyes. He seemed like a sincere, honest, nice guy. I did not get a bad vibe from him.

[Jesse]

But.

[James Fox]

I was talking openly because I was like, whatever I have to lose, they know who I am. Like, I was talking about Rua, I was talking about, you know, Virginia, I was talking about Socorro, all these different cases. And I was like, you know, you know, you're going to draw the conclusion after all the other. You've exhausted every other possibility that we are dealing with a small percentage of probably non human intelligence. Right. I mean, you, you know that, like, what's the plan to tell the public? And they were both very quiet. And John goes, he goes, you know, James, very soft, like non. I liked him. I got a good vibe from him. And he's like, you know, James, I can't part my hair without the approval of the dod.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[James Fox]

And then he goes, and you can quote me on that.

[Jesse]

Okay, you're quoting it, right?

[James Fox]

But I was in the skiff and it was just like in the movies, you know, I went in, I went in. It was not too far from the Pentagon. And I had to get a 48 hour background check, which I passed, thank God. And then I had to go through all the security, take everything off and go through all the. Oh, my gosh, that took forever. And then they had these like, glass tube like things. I felt like it was in Star Trek or something. I think they went to the ceiling or they were pretty high up. Glass tubes. And you Walk up to it and one side opens and you step in and then that closes and another one opens and now you're in the inside. And then I go to a locker. They probably got my phone data, and I took all my, all my electronics and I put it in the locker and you know, and then we went to a big door with a thing and, you know, just like you. Almost like a bank vault looking door. And it opened up and it was a. It was a. It was. I thought it was going to be like a kind of a small room, but it was huge. It was like, like the whole. The whole office area was all one big skiff, right? And they walked me in there and I was just like, oh, my God, this is crazy. Actually, before, before we went into the skiff and I just gotten through security, I had this badge and I was like, I really want a picture of this badge because I just want to, you know, want to have it from memory. So I. Okay, can I use the bathroom? You know. Oh, sure. It's. I went in the bathroom, click. Took a picture of the badge, which I have, because, I don't know, it's. It's not illegal, right? Take a picture of the badge. But anyway, they take me in this, down this hallway. There's a bunch of different cubicles and take me down this hallway. And then there was like a door on my right and a door on my left. The door my right was closed, the door on the left was open. And there was like a. I don't know if it was a round table or if it was slightly like, like, what do you call, oblong or whatever. But anyway, there were four or five people, couple girls, couple guys in suits, nicely dressed, sitting there. And they said, hey, wait right here. And like I said, I had a door to my. On my right and I had this open door on my left. And I couldn't help myself. I was just like, you know, kind of listening on the conversation. I just, I was scared. What else was I supposed to do? I stopped where they told me to stop and I'm. And then they looked at me and they got up and they closed the door of my face.

[Witnesses/Interviewees]

And then.

[James Fox]

And then John Koskowski with another guy from OSI came and met with me and open. Opened the door in that room and then we went inside there and that's when we had, I don't know, maybe a 30 minute conversation.

[Jesse]

And in that conversation was he admitting that the UFO stuff is real?

[James Fox]

They didn't say no, and they didn't Say yes. They were just sat there quietly.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

Yeah. Because I was like, this case and this case and this case. And they didn't. And then they did say that the Phenomenon was mandatory viewing for anyone who worked for Arrow.

[Jesse]

Interesting. Well, that's cool.

[James Fox]

Isn't that cool?

[Jesse]

That's pretty awesome.

[James Fox]

I was like, wow. Yeah, that was a nice little, you.

[Jesse]

Know, I'm telling you, you're doing as much work for. They're, they're learning from you a second.

[James Fox]

Are you ready?

[Jesse]

There you go. Nice.

[James Fox]

I don't know. I, I love my little Phenomenon T shirts.

[Jesse]

I gotta buy one.

[James Fox]

I, no, I'll give you some. No, I was, the first time I went on Rogan, I, I, I was like, I'm not gonna be the guy who gives him a T shirt on camera. I'm gonna do it afterwards.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I always do that.

[James Fox]

You know, T shirt afterwards on camera.

[Jesse]

Is basically like, here's an advertisement for.

[James Fox]

Me, you know, and, and I don't even own the Phenomena anymore, and none of the proceeds go to me. But I still want people to watch it because I'm very proud of that body of work and everyone that's in the credits deserves it. But, but I gave it to Joe Rogan and you know, really appreciate. And also, you know, when we went to dinner with Joe Rogan the night before was Jacques Fillet and one other guy from his team. It was great, man. We, we drank really nice wine. It was five course. Oh, incredible meal. Oh, my Lord, we had so much fun. I was, it was a wonderful. Joe's such a nice guy, man. Like, just really a nice guy.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

You know, care what anybody says about you meet him and you hang out with him. This guy's cool.

[Jesse]

Super cool. Nice guy and super fulfilled and so.

[James Fox]

Humble and just kind and generous and. Anyway, I got up from the meal and I went discreetly out, like I was going to the bathroom and I paid for the meal. Oh. And it wasn't cheap. And, and, and came back and he, you know, after like 20 more minutes, he's like, hey, can, you know, can we get the bill here, please? And the guy goes, it's been taken care of. And Joe looks over and I got the impression like, nobody does that. What?

[Jesse]

How did he react?

[James Fox]

Well, he was shocked. He was like, you, you know, oh my God, nobody, you know, it's like, oh, hey, man, that's the least I could do than know. Anyway, but I gave him the T shirt.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And two or three days later I could. Everyone's blowing me up Joe Rogan's wearing your T shirt on his podcast. And there he was, rocking the phenomenon on his podcast. How cool is that?

[Jesse]

That's so cool.

[James Fox]

You know what I mean?

[Jesse]

He just did the same with ours merch last week, and it was just so. It was so. It's so, so nice of him. It's so cool.

[James Fox]

He. He has helped so many people.

[Jesse]

He's created so many careers. So many.

[James Fox]

I'll give you an example. When I got an Uber ride, when Joe. Joe flew me in first class, which is incredible. Then I had a driver pick me up, and the driver, he was like, oh, you're going on Joe. Oh, God, I love that guy. And I was like, oh. And he goes, let me tell you, man, I was really down on my luck, and just things weren't going well, and I was just really scared, struggling. And he goes, I. I was. I was on to take Joe to some place, and I got the address wrong, and I. I got him lost, and I. You know, 15 minutes longer than it should have been. And I felt terrible. He was, you know, Joe Rogan, such an important guy, and he's got all this stuff going on, and, man, I felt terrible. And Joe's like, hey, man, wait here. I got. I'll be right back. I need to go to this one location, come back. And Joe came back, and he tipped him, like, $2,000. He gave him some huge tips. And he goes, that saved my life. I was behind on my rent. I was, like, really struggling financially. He goes, joe did that for me, and I'm a random stranger, like, screwed up his ride. And I heard, that's wild. Yeah. And I heard that from just about everybody that I encountered in the Austin area about how Joe would do a random act of kindness and generosity, help people.

[Jesse]

No, he is, like. He's like that. He called me out of the blue and was, like, just super complimentary. Like. Like, just so nice. And. And, yeah, he's so generous. And what else? I mean, there's that story of this Ms. Pat, this comedian. She. I think right when Covid hit or whatever, was struggling or whatever, and she was like, the only guy that called me was Joe Rogan, you know? And like, oh, really? Yeah, he really. He really cares, and I care, and.

[James Fox]

He really does sincerely care. Now you hear all those stories behind the scenes of people that have had encounters with him and had nothing but nice things to say. Nothing but nice things to say. And I say the same thing. Like, I'm incredibly grateful for the exposure he's given all of us.

[Jesse]

All of us. I think he's more than anybody bent the timeline towards disclosure, even an interest in any of this.

[James Fox]

No question.

[Jesse]

And it allows, like more, you know, I find. I think I'm sort of this niche, like, you know, compared to another thing.

[James Fox]

That I really love about Joe is that Joe has President Trump on. Joe has Bernie Sanders on. Yeah, Joe has opposing viewpoints. He's kind to everybody. Like, he gives them a platform because I think like, it's so easy nowadays, like, oh, you're on the left or you're on the right or you're in the middle or you're whatever. And you know, you're the devil. We disagree. Therefore, you're the devil. And I just like, that bothers me because I'm friends with all. You're cool and you're a nice person. We're good. You know what I mean? And I friends with people that are both sides of the spec. We don't even care. We're high five. Yeah, we're really close and tight. Good per. You know what I mean? Like, I don't believe in the demonizing of someone just because they have a different viewpoint than you do. That's just so wrong. I know.

[Jesse]

It's so wrong. Yeah, the Internet allows you to do that. You. You compress somebody into this 2D.

[James Fox]

Yeah, you're there. Exactly.

[Jesse]

You're like this avatar that, like, you know, you're some evil. Like, you know, and you're not actually just like this full dimensional. Like you have a human being with like a family and like, you know, totally. It's like we're all, it's all good. I know, but then none of those people would say those things to your face. Your face, you know, it's just, it's Keyboard warrior.

[James Fox]

That's a very good point.

[Jesse]

Bs. It's.

[James Fox]

It's like, yeah, that is a very good point. Yeah, when you meet him, like I always say, like, like I've said some things very rarely and particularly not publicly, but I said, I said this to this person's face. I was like, hey, I really hurt because of X, Y and Z. And I really appreciate it because I feel like if I have an issue with anybody, I'm going to say it to their face.

[Jesse]

Totally.

[James Fox]

Because that's the way it should be. I'm not going to sit there and like, oh, he said this. And no, no, he's like, I got an issue. Let's hash it out. I'm pissed off. And we all make mistakes. I piss people off inadvertently like, oh, shit, I'm so sorry. They were offended, or I said the wrong thing and like, hey, all you can do is go back and make an. I'm really sorry, hope you forgive me. And nine times out of 10, people are like, you know what? That's cool. We're good.

[Jesse]

Yeah. It's all. Yeah, totally. Yeah. 100% have. Okay. Have you ever been asked to bury a story?

[James Fox]

Sort of. Sort of.

[Jesse]

Okay. What does that mean?

[James Fox]

Like, hey, sort of like, I've had, like, this, this meeting never happened.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

We don't discuss any of the details that I just gave you. And I feel like if I violated that trust, I wouldn't get in the door. Door with these people.

[Jesse]

No, I, I.

[James Fox]

You know what I mean?

[Jesse]

Valuing relationships for sure. Yeah.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

No, I'm. I mean, more like you were covering a thing independently. Somebody entered your life and said, you can't cover this. Okay.

[James Fox]

Kind of. Because it was an aspect of the story that I got from the inside that they didn't want that aspect out as part of the story that I was covering. And I made them the promise that I wouldn't.

[Jesse]

Was that for the program?

[James Fox]

No.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

No, earlier than that.

[Jesse]

Earlier than that.

[James Fox]

Earlier and later.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

I'm not trying to be.

[Jesse]

No, no, no.

[James Fox]

They just asked me not to mention it, and I respect that.

[Jesse]

How did they find out that. How'd they find out that you were covering the thing?

[James Fox]

Oh, oh, my. My work is public.

[Jesse]

Okay. Okay. So you were, like, you were starting to surface.

[James Fox]

It was a follow up on a previous thing that, that I'd reported on.

[Jesse]

And they were like, don't take that further.

[James Fox]

Don't, don't. Don't mention that we showed you this and don't mention that we.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

You know.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

So I said I wouldn't. Damn. I know.

[Jesse]

Do you want, do you think that, that if people knew that thing that would move the needle as far as overall disclosure? No.

[James Fox]

No, not really.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fox]

I think the. I think the Holloman landing footage exists, and I've talked to a number of people, and I didn't. When I first heard about it, I was like, come on. Landing contact, please. Yeah, like, come on.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

You know. But now I'm convinced the Holloman did happen, and I think that would obviously move the needle, particularly if, you know.

[Jesse]

Why are you convinced?

[James Fox]

Well, because I was investigating some Socorro, and that happened in 64, April 24, 1964. And in the process, and I spent five years investigating that case on and off. I met with Ray Stanford RIP who's one of the lead investigators, wrote the book Socorro Saucer in a Pentagon Pantry. And in the process of investigating, I was reading all the articles. I went to the house, I befriended his wife, Mary, daughter, son Michael. And I'm reading, I'm going through all the newspaper clippings, I'm going to the National Archives. And I mean, I'm really doing a deep dive into that case because, my God, it's a very good case. And I came upon a couple of articles coincidentally, haphazardly written by Corral Lorenzen of the UFO Bulletin, I think it was called. And she had talked about this landing at Holloman. She interviewed someone that was in an airplane that witnessed it and someone that was on the ground at the base that witnessed it. Both military officials, and apparently she was a respected journalist. And I was like, this is interesting. Like, this is an original article. I was looking at it like. And that led me to Bob, come on. The two guys that made the film, UFOs past, present and future. Emon Ager and Alan Sandler and Emon Ager in particular. And then of course, that led me to Colonel William Coleman, who had that dramatic encounter with a UFO and B55 over Alabama. But also he was later on part of Project Blue Book. He was a public spokesman for the Pentagon during the time the film was being made. And I started. Started poking around and started as a side investigation, I started to look into the Lanning case that they kind of put forth as a concept at me, something that might have happened already, that maybe it would happen in the future in their film. Right. And. And then that led me to, you know, Eminegger, who talked with the guy, Paul Shardle, who was at the archive, processed the film of the landing, talked about it in great, great detail. I interviewed Bob Emonager, which I'm gonna release for free all my archives coming up soon. It's been so busy.

[Jesse]

That's amazing.

[James Fox]

I digitized them all, and they're all digitized now. I just have to go through them and edit them. And I'm gonna. And I'm gonna put them all out there for free for everybody.

[Jesse]

Cool.

[James Fox]

But anyway, and based on that, and then Alan Sander was shown the footage by Paul Shardle. He's convinced that it was a real flying saucer. No question about it. Three came in over the base. Two peeled away, one came down and landed. And he goes, james, just like in a sci fi movie. There was no. There was like a seamless door that just Opened and dropped. Alan Sandler happens to think that it was our technology in this. Whenever it was shown to him in the 70s, I think he was shown it in 72, 73, but it was taken in the 60s, I believe, is what Paul Charnel said. And he thinks it was our technology, our flying saucers that we had. And they dressed people up to look like aliens as a staged event. But he goes, it wasn't dark. It was a real flying saucer that really flew and that really came down and landed over the base. And it was filmed on a tripod, which means they anticipated it coming. Cause you don't have a camera sitting on a tripod unless they're filming something else unrelated. And then the event happened. Either that or they just saw it happening. Because I asked those details. And they said they were met with a bunch of military base commanders in uniform, got into a jeep, off they went. Discs just sat there on the ground. And then the film footage ends.

[Jesse]

He thinks it was staged.

[James Fox]

He thinks it was a real disc, real technology. Technology, real flying saucer that really flew in the 60s, and that it was. That's what he thinks. Why is he.

[Jesse]

Why does he think that?

[James Fox]

I don't know. I guess it was hard for him to imagine that real aliens. I really don't know.

[Jesse]

Okay, but he said that they had Egyptian.

[James Fox]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Head dresses, big noses, slits for mouth.

[James Fox]

Tall. Yeah, kind of tall. Not. Not short.

[Jesse]

So what was that?

[James Fox]

And some sort of device that they assumed would have been a communication device.

[Jesse]

Okay, but if he's saying that, is that, like, were there makeup artists involved? Like, what?

[James Fox]

Evidently there would have been, according to him.

[Jesse]

But they dressed them up in a Jedi.

[James Fox]

Nager was like, bullshit. That was a real event. It was an extraterrestrial. Paul Shardle, who had the footage, who processed the footage in Norton Air Force Base. Absolutely. To his death, said that was a real event. And then, of course, I'm talking to other people that have. Subsequent. Since then, particularly, he's come out with it. Eric Davis said that either he was told about it, President Bush was either senior, was either told about it or shown it. I can't remember. Do you know?

[Jesse]

I don't know.

[James Fox]

Eric Davis said that he talked to President Bush about it.

[Jesse]

I know there's some relation there, but I don't know.

[James Fox]

As head of the CIA, he was made aware of it accidentally, and that's how he became aware of it. But I don't know if he was shown it. Eric Davis would know.

[Jesse]

So. Fascinating. Well, we could go back and Forth all day. Man, I love talking to you and you're such a treasure trove of deep knowledge when it comes to UFOs and inspiration.

[James Fox]

I don't really feel like that I know what I know talking directly to witnesses around the world and that's it. But you have a much deeper understanding of so many of the complexities and intricacies from what you do. And I respect it. But it's great. We compliment each other.

[Jesse]

I don't know. I don't know anything, man.

[James Fox]

Do I?

[Jesse]

I know less than I did when I. It's the more you know, the less you know, you know. Totally. And the more, the more questions you have and the weirder it gets, you expect it to neatly collapse into, oh, it's like either all man made, you know, anti gravity vehicles plus plus MK Ultra or whatever.

[James Fox]

Right.

[Jesse]

And then you go. Or it's just these beings and they're like this specific place and you like. No. And it's like I haven't gotten either of those. Like it just keeps getting weirder and weirder as I'm sure you've experienced. And so please, you know, don't put me in that position under the night.

[James Fox]

Sky in the remote desert and look up and just realize just how vast the known universe is.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fox]

And the possibilities of life. One of the things we covered out of the blue very early on was like the equations of the possibilities of life.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

In the universe. And it's like a hundred percent. Like it just comes out at. There was that book written By Amir Excel Probability 1 Years ago, back in the 90s, you know, and it was like, mathematically we are not alone. Look. Yes. Come on.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fox]

Could be all the.

[Jesse]

And life is bizarre. Life is absurd and bizarre. Consciousness itself is weird. What is happening, nobody can, you know, has a great answer for that. And I think the framing of disclosure, it's both exciting because maybe we're on the precipice of this, this big reveal, but it's also kind of a misnomer because I think per the messages that maybe a lot of these beings seem to transmit, we're in more of a position ourselves to know the truth than we might realize. And I don't think the government has a monopoly on an understanding of metaphysics. I do think they have asymmetric understanding of maybe some technology and they might have some more materials and might have some more footage and concrete, concrete evidence than civilians do. But the idea that they have some sort of like ontological understanding of the universe that like, you know, people can't achieve without them giving that info. I mean, great, let's. Let's get the info. Amazing. But it's also like a low agency thing, you know, it's like we can do it ourselves, too. And anyone can understand this stuff if they reach for it. So I don't know or understand it or, Or. Or understand more of it. You know, one you pull on one thread, you get like three more in its place. But, you know, I think we can ascend much greater to much greater heights kind of intellectually than, you know, give ourselves credit for.

[James Fox]

One little thing.

[Jesse]

You got some gummy bears, some James Fox gummy bear.

[James Fox]

Just what, you know.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fox]

That's really cool.

[Jesse]

Speaking of which. My swag.

[James Fox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to thank you for having me on. I want to thank you for all your support. I really appreciate it.

[Jesse]

Oh, man.

[James Fox]

Really? I really mean that.

[Jesse]

No, it's an honor to get to know you and. Yeah, really, you know, ride in your. Your wake that you've created, you know, aerodynamically. I get to. I get to.

[James Fox]

Hey, we're all in this together. We all make our contribution.

[Jesse]

Absolutely. Well, go check out. What's that? What's the. It's moment of contact.

[James Fox]

New. New revelations of alien encounters. It was called. We did a complete. Because we really felt like. I felt like, you know, processing. You got all the congressional hearings, right? And that, like, I think about mainstream, I think about skeptics. Fair enough. It's very healthy to be skeptical, but I think about trying to process, like, those allegations made under oath by Grush and Blue and all. All the others of crash retrievals and live aliens and biologists. Biologics. Right. So I kind of like took the first 20 minutes completely new. Condensed those hearings, as you saw. Condensed those hearings. And then, hey, you know what? As extraordinary as this sounds, it's not the first time. And I give really quick examples of various, you know, Magenta. We go to Italy, we, you know, Roswell very quickly. I don't get bogged down in those old cases, but boom, boom, boom, you know, Kecksburg, Kingman, the landing at Bentwaters. Just really good statements of craft landing or crash on the ground. And then. But the best case, you know, and then we do a deep dive into Virginia with all the new testimony from two forensic pathologists, from the chief of police, new crash witness, plus the lead neurosurgeon at regional hospital. And none of these people are coming forward in this new cut. No one is coming forward anonymously. They're putting their names, their reputations, their faces out there for the whole world to see.

[Jesse]

Yeah, well, thank God they did. And thank God you went out there and got the footage and keep going back there and. Yeah, it's just, it's an honor to speak with you. Go watch this movie because I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be earth shattering, especially watching Italo Ventarelli, this neurosurgeon, just his revelation just feels so important, this testimony of being face to face with an alien being for that long.

[James Fox]

I'm told it's like the first time in history. Like, you know, we never had with Roswell. Right. We didn't have Gentra or any of these other cases where we have, we.

[Jesse]

Don'T have video of this. Yes.

[James Fox]

Yeah. I mean, obviously it would be great to get the ultimate prize, right? I mean.

[Jesse]

No, no, no. But you have video of him and he, and he's still alive now.

[James Fox]

Alive. He's still alive. He's like, I, I asked him, would you put your hand in a Bible? Would you testify? You know, would you take a lot. Yes. All the above. Yes. And now the, the whole entire doctor medical community in the region are all supporting him, getting behind him. And I'm told there are other doctors that are considering when the time is right to come forward. So we're at the beginning of the beginning. I'm, I'm, I'm quite honestly very excited about it and we'll see how it's received.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Well, let's hope your dream becomes a reality and somebody slips a thumb drive that's real in your pocket or maybe it goes down in a, in a, in a, in a way that's more manageable for you. I don't know.

[James Fox]

But I'm trying. Even if it gets out there. And by the way, I'm going to make this abundantly clear unless I have to. If somebody gives me the footage, I'm giving it away for free. I'm not going to charge a dime for it. I love that. If I have to pay for it, I'll have to recoup my investment to pay those people back. And then I'll put it out there for free. But if I get it, I'll give it to the world for free. I swear on my. Unless I have to pay for it, reimburse the investors, then I'll reimburse it and then I'll put it out there for free.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. Go to james fox.com. it's behind a paywall.

[James Fox]

No, that won't happen, I promise.

[Jesse]

No, I think that's the right attitude, along with, like, you know, wanting other people to follow up on your research. And you're. You're the paradigmatic example of that because you're having Amar, who's a good friend of mine and kind of such a cool guy. Yeah, the best. And he's kind of a correspondent for the show, but he's kind of. I think he's going to start his own thing. Yeah, I hope. And he's gonna go get some amazing footage with you. And so you've been so welcoming to me and him as far as, you know, come with me and. Oh, yeah, that's not normal in the space this. There's. There are a lot of people, you know, they call. It's like, I want to get the quote unquote scoop.

[James Fox]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And, like, I'll even see, like, I'll cover a thing, and then somebody will try to, like, front run the thing. It's like. And I'm always like, great, good. You cover it, too. We'll both cover. You know, it's like, whatever.

[James Fox]

Yeah. Power numbers.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like we, you know, so I appreciate you. And this was. This was amazing, man. And I'm excited. Excited to. To do this and hopefully do this many more times.

[James Fox]

Thank you, brother.

[Jesse]

All right. Thank you, James.

[James Fox]

Bye.

[Jesse]

All right. Over the last couple of months, we've been designing the new American Alchemy merch drop. And I'm excited to say that the 2025 winter drop is finally ready. We now have 30 uniquely designed pieces that really reflect what American Alchemy is all about. This drop includes. Includes epic T shirts, long sleeves, crew necks, hoodies, tapered sweatpants, hats, totes, mugs, and tumblers. The Fukushima, Japan pieces, for example, have detailed left chest embroidery. The Morning of Earth designs went through multiple revisions to get the fit exactly right. And the Iron Horse tee is something I think will be a hit for anyone who loved the UFO cowboy or our Atomic Age shirts. From our last drop, we cut a lot of things that didn't meet our standards, and we're really, really proud of each of these items. Everything is pretty limited, so there's no endless restocks. Once it's gone, it's entirely gone. If you missed anything from our original drops and you want to go out and represent, now's the time to go grab something. So go to americanalchemymerch.com to check it all out.

[James Fox]

It.