Greg Bishop (3:17)

Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. Benowitz wasn't involved in aerospace, and he was already kind of unstable to begin with. It's just the Air Force, afosi and other people just encouraged it and made it worse, which is no excuse. Everybody says, oh, he was perfectly okay. No, he was kind of heading down that road. It's just when somebody in power tells you something.

Unknown Host (3:38)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (3:38)

It's like, oh, well, that must be right. So you just keep, you know.

Unknown Host (3:41)

Well, didn't he have a company that sold components to.

Greg Bishop (3:45)

They still do.

Unknown Host (3:46)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (3:46)

His sons still run it, at least one of them. And Thunder Scientific Temperature and humidity instruments.

Unknown Host (3:53)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (3:53)

I think it's. It's humidifiers and. And things to monitor temperature and humidity in, like, highly, you know, corrosive or wetter environments, like on submarines or on aircraft or whatever. So that's. He actually had, as far as I know, contracts with the military for these things, along with a bunch of, you know, scientific organizations and stuff.

Unknown Host (4:13)

And he both lives. And his office is near Kirtland Air Force Base, like, basically across the street, or what's the.

Greg Bishop (4:21)

His house is in the Four Hills area of Albuquerque, which is on the border of the north side of Kirtland Air Force Base.

Unknown Host (4:29)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (4:30)

And his office was near the Wyoming gate of Kirtland Air Force Base. So at work or at home, he was always, like, right next to the base. So. And the company's still there. If you go there, there's a big sign, this little sign that says Thunder Scientific. And I think his son, one of his sons is still the president. And I'm not sure if his wife is still alive. Cindy, I think her name is, or was. But, yeah, that's on. Like I said, it's just if you. You could walk out his front door and down a street, like, two minutes, and you're at the fence that says, you know, government facility, do not trespass, all that stuff.

Unknown Host (5:06)

So this is the late 70s. Paul Benowitz is living and working around Kirtland Air Force Base. What's he like as a. As a person?

Greg Bishop (5:13)

The people I do know that knew him, such as Bill Moore, Doty and Gabe Valdez. Those are three people I talked to who knew him. And mostly because I was talking about that period, they talk about him getting more and more frightened about stuff. But I've seen pictures of him before all this started happening, and he. He's got this mischievous look on his face. He looks like a. He looks like a grown up kid. There's a. I've seen a picture of his application to APRO Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, and he's just kind of standing there like. It's kind of like, wow, that doesn't look like Paul Benowitz. I think of him as like this scared, paranoid person. But, you know, in the picture, which is just a snippet of somebody, he looks actually pretty. Pretty happy and funny. There's a picture of him in the Albuquerque Journal or Tribune, one of the two in 1981 or two. He looks way different. He has long hair and a big beard, and he's kind of sitting there and he looks very serious. And it was just a profile of him and his business.

Unknown Host (6:25)

But anything about his childhood or was he a generally credulous person who believed in other sort of, you know, crazy lore growing up?

Greg Bishop (6:34)

I don't think so. The only thing I knew about, and I can't remember who I found this out from, is he liked to read Wild west novels.

Unknown Host (6:41)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (6:41)

You know, also he was a private pilot. He had a. He had a pilot's license. Also. I think he did aerobatic flying, which made me feel closer to him because I have a pilot's license too, and I've done some aerobatic flying. But it's just, you know, there's not a lot on his background. People actually said, well, why don't you get into his background? And what was just your question? And I said, well, nobody that was close to him wanted to talk to me for obvious reasons. Yeah, because it's like, we don't want to dig that up again.

Unknown Host (7:09)

So he's living and working near Kirtland Air Force Base. Kirtland Air Force Base has an interesting history in just UFO lore. I believe it was managed back in the day by the SANDIA offshoot of the Atomic Energy Commission.

Greg Bishop (7:22)

Oh, okay.

Unknown Host (7:23)

Okay. And. And so a couple of places where it shows up in UFO lore just to kind of set the. Set the scene for people. Maybe take this with a grain of salt. But you have Bill Steinman, who is a UFO researcher who writes about the Aztec Crash, which is a very controversial crash.

Greg Bishop (7:37)

Yeah, I have his book. I talked to him on the phone once, actually. Oh, wow.

Unknown Host (7:41)

I want to hear about that because he seemed like a very interesting guy. Yeah, he was actually. People don't know this. He was a skunk works employee and he was pushed out of.

Greg Bishop (7:48)

Okay. That I didn't know because he was.

Unknown Host (7:50)

So interested in this topic. And then he could Never really get a job in aerospace again. But he writes about Kirtland Air Force Base with respect to a guy named Eric Henry Wang. Because he was interested actually in the Kingman crash.

Greg Bishop (8:03)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (8:03)

Which is associated with Operation Upshot Knothole, this nuclear test in 1953 in Nevada at the Nevada Test Range. And you have this Arthur Stancil, this guy who's on the. Definitely worked at Wright Airfield at the time. And he sees his name in the records. Cause he was this witness of this crash. He sees a body, like a four foot body, mortared or whatever in Kingman. And Steinman looks him up, sees his name in the record next to a guy named Eric Henry Wang. Eric Henry Wang was head of special Studies at Wright Airfield.

Greg Bishop (8:36)

He was German.

Unknown Host (8:38)

German. Studied with Victor Schauberger actually.

Greg Bishop (8:40)

Okay. That I didn't know.

Unknown Host (8:41)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (8:42)

And people say, well, why is his name Wang? And I found out, and I think this is true because of the, of. Because of Mong. East Asian, you know, barbarians came through Germany.

Unknown Host (8:54)

Fascinating.

Greg Bishop (8:55)

And so he had this Asian name. He wasn't, he was German, but he had this Asian name because of, you know, something that happened in what, the third. I mean, sorry, like the third century or fourth century. There were people named Wang that came through there.

Unknown Host (9:08)

Kind of Attila the Hun and.

Greg Bishop (9:10)

Yeah, yeah, I was going to say Attila the Hun. I'm sure. Not sure he made it to Rome, but.

Unknown Host (9:13)

Yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (9:15)

So Mongol hordes did, but apparently that's where his name came from. Go ahead.

Unknown Host (9:19)

No, no. Amazing. I love it. I love the historical detours. So his name, he's apparently moved from Wright Patterson or Wright Airfield to Kirtland Air Force Base. And I believe there's even some sort of complex near Los Alamos that's like named after him and. But that's it. Like he's kind of scrubbed from the Internet otherwise.

Greg Bishop (9:41)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (9:41)

Steinman, like most people do that kind of do that kind of work. Bill Steinman gets in touch with his wife, Maria Wang, and she says, oh yeah, he worked at Kirtland Air Force Base. He worked on some, you know, secret UFO related.

Greg Bishop (9:55)

Yeah, I think they came also came and took a bunch of stuff out of his house when he died.

Unknown Host (10:00)

Interesting.

Greg Bishop (10:00)

Kind of like that, that Tesla story where the Navy goes in. In New York and pulls all the stuff out of storage. But the same thing, I believe that's.

Unknown Host (10:09)

Definitely factual in the case of Tesla. So. Yeah. And then John Trump, Trump's. Donald Trump's uncle actually looks at the Tesla files to see if I read that, yeah. Crazy history. But, okay, so they, yeah, raid Wang's house. Steinman speaks to Maria Wang. She says, yes, he's working on all sorts of spooky stuff. And he was managed by Henry A. Kissinger. So that's pretty crazy. And then Henry Kissinger is actually on record meeting, doing these, like, kind of meetings. This guy, Don Cotter, who is head of Advanced Research at Kirtland Air force base in 1962, is convening these interdisciplinary groups to talk about. You have. No, not. Not talk about UFOs. Talk about. We don't know. Yeah, you know, kind of, you know, national defense security and geopolitics.

Greg Bishop (11:00)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (11:00)

And. And Kissinger is on record being there. So that's the backdrop. Otherwise, all we know is Kirtland is working on probably advanced aerospace. And at what point does Benowitz start to think that he is picking up some sort of alien signal or, you know, he's detecting UFOs.

Greg Bishop (11:22)

I think it's 77 or 8. He was seeing lights fly. And Chris Lambright describes this in his book, too. He was seeing lights, like, out somewhere on the base, like, lifting up off the ground and flying over a mountain and going down. They were glowing orbs. And he said that he could look through binoculars and sometimes see, like, Air Force people or somebody walking around them before they took off. Then they'd go straight up, go over the mountain, go down. And it's not clear as to whether they were doing things that were unconventional or just kind of doing this, because if they went zoop and then went like, you know, then you kind of like, whoa. So he saw that for a while, and then he started filming it with 8 millimeter cameras. And then later video, early video. And because of that, and also because he was doing hypnosis with this woman, Myrna Hansen, that said she was abducted or something had happened to her. You know, at that point, Bud Hopkins book hadn't even come out. So one of the few people that knew about this kind of thing was Leo Sprinkle and also James Harder. There were two psychologists, and they both worked with apro. And as I said, Benowitz was a member of apro, Aerial Phenomena Research Organization.

Unknown Host (12:39)

Okay, this is a UFO research group?

Greg Bishop (12:41)

Yeah, they're in Arizona. It was run by Jim and Coral Lorenzen, who had split off from the Midwest UFO Network, which is now the Mutual UFO Network.

Unknown Host (12:50)

Mufon.

Greg Bishop (12:51)

Yeah. So they'd started their own group, which they said I think was more scientific. Anyway, Paul joined them. I've seen his application. It's kind of cool to just see what he was saying about himself.

Unknown Host (13:05)

Anything interesting that he said?

Greg Bishop (13:07)

They said, what are your, what was it he just said? I can help with some of the technical aspects. He had a master's, I think, in electrical engineering.

Unknown Host (13:15)

Okay, that's right.

Greg Bishop (13:16)

Yeah. And he said that he can help with some of the technical aspects of, you know, if they wanted to, you know, if they had any kind of equipment they wanted to use to start, you know, doing what people now do now, which is to detect UFOs. And it's been going on for years. But we just got to the point last 20 years where you can actually have an automatic system. That's pretty accurate. So he said that about his expertise, but he also. The other thing I thought was kind of fascinating, they said, what's your favorite UFO book? And he said, books by Hynek. That's all he said.

Unknown Host (13:45)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (13:45)

Which is funny because later Heineck apparently visited his house.

Unknown Host (13:49)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (13:50)

And that's how he got in touch with at first Leo Sprinkle. And Sprinkle came out to interview to help him regress this woman and figure out what had happened to her. And Sprinkle, after being there, I think the second time he came, he said Bennett was there with like a, like a rifle and a pistol. And he said, you know, they're coming. You have to come in the house right now. And this was before he even contacted the Air Force, I think, think, wow.

Unknown Host (14:16)

So he was already exhibiting signs of paranoia and. Okay, crazy. You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show. Lately I've been thinking a lot about aging. Not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called Qualia Senolytic.

Greg Bishop (14:43)

And.

Unknown Host (14:44)

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Greg Bishop (16:06)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (16:07)

And then does he detect anything else? Like, any sort of, like, signals?

Greg Bishop (16:10)

He wasn't at that point. As things progressed, he started putting up equipment to detect signals because he thought, maybe I can hear what the aliens are talking about. Because he called the Air Force and said, look, there's. There's stuff flying over the base and I think it's aliens, and I want to tell you about it. And I've got films. And so they're. You know, the base was like, he's not supposed to be watching this stuff. So instead of telling him, no, no, get out of here. You know, that's nothing. It's national defense or whatever, security. They said, well, come on down here and show us what you got. Because they wanted to see what it was, you know, is it something we're working on that he's not supposed to see? Obviously it's something we're working on because he's pointing the camera at the base. So I talked to a guy at the NSA who was not there. His name was Tom Dooley. I actually talk about him in the book. But he had a colleague that was at that meeting, the first meeting with Benowitz, where they had all the security people and, like, maybe the commander of the base, I'm not sure, but it's certainly all the security people and some of the military and civilian people, I guess, in charge of different projects at the base because they wanted to see what he's looking at. And he told me by the end of the meet, everybody started leaving. And by the end of the meeting, it was like three or four people left because they're like, oh, that's not ours, that's not ours. So they can care about it. But the people that were concerned stayed there. And the only one I know of is the guy that was head of AFOSI at the time, I think. And he said, hey, Paul, this is interesting. Why don't you keep telling us what's going on? Because they wanted to see exactly what he's seeing, when he's seeing it, and then eventually convinced him that he was working with them. So he trusted them. So they could basically tell him whatever they wanted and keep an eye on him. And people keep asking, it's like, what did they do that for? And I said it was far more valuable to them to find out what he was seeing, how he was seeing it. If anybody else could do this, even though he was an electronics genius and who he was talking to, like anybody could just write him and say, I'm a UFO researcher. What are you doing? And then they, you know, they could check up on the person. Maybe he's, maybe he's a Russian, Russian or Chinese or otherwise asset. So it's basically so they could get a handle into what do these people, you know, who does he know? What is he telling them? What does he think is going on? And of course, he tells somebody from, you know, another country from a, from an adversary, and they'll get clues as to what's being worked on. And they can, they can, you know, concatenate that with other information they're getting from other sources. So it's another source of information. So they want to make sure he wasn't some sort of security leak inadvertently, because they didn't think he was an enemy agent or anything like that. They just thought he was kind of a, you know, outlaw, crazy scientist guy, which he kind of was. And in keeping in touch with them, they could keep a lid on that stuff and that. I think that's why they contacted Bill Moore. It's like, well, you're a UFO guy. If you, you know, if you cooperate with us, we'll give you some secrets, we'll give you some documents. And they did. But so explain that about all of them. Turned out to be crap.

Unknown Host (19:13)

So let's explain that. So. So Bill Moore is a UFO researcher who's kind of starting to reach peak prominence at that time, I think in 79 or 80.

Greg Bishop (19:22)

Yeah, because he had, he had just written. Co written the Roswell. Roswell, the first book about the Roswell.

Unknown Host (19:28)

Crash, which really put it on the map. Before that, it was not, you know, before him and Stan Friedman, 79, 80.

Greg Bishop (19:33)

Wasn'T Stan kind of discovered what was going on and then he helped. He was like, Bill's research.

Unknown Host (19:37)

That's right. Yeah.

Greg Bishop (19:37)

Nobody mentions Bill at the Roswell Festival. He's why they're doing all this, right? Him and Stan, actually.

Unknown Host (19:44)

Yeah. Well, it might be because of his. His. Yeah, the souring event of events.

Greg Bishop (19:49)

Which we'll talk about.

Unknown Host (19:50)

Which we'll talk about. But he was kind of, you know, really starting to ascend in UFO world as a good researcher. He written also the Philadelph experiment and.

Greg Bishop (19:58)

He was on the board of APRO on APRO too. Okay, that was the other connection.

Unknown Host (20:02)

Okay, so he is ascending and then what happens? Does he get sort of co opted by counterintelligence or.

Greg Bishop (20:11)

Yeah, basically he got a letter that was sent to apro and APRO looked at it and said, well, why don't you check this out. It was just basically from this guy who said they were on patrol somewhere and it might have been New Mexico, I can't remember, but he said, we're on patrol. We saw this UFO was really weird. Everybody got freaked out and I just wanted to write somebody. Bill checked it out and he told the Apro people it's B.S. this is just. This is somebody's fake letter. It was supposedly a military person that wanted to get this information out. And Bill checked out and the guy didn't exist. He did find out the incident may have happened, but not in the way the guy said. So he just said, well, ignore this, it's bs. And a few months after that, he was on tour doing radio shows for Roswell Incident. He was at one radio station, they said, there's a call for you. He thought that it was a prank call and he just basically hung up on him. So he goes to Albuquerque, the next stop on his book tour, he goes into the radio station, same thing happens, same voice. And he's like, okay, this is a lot of effort to put in for just a hoax. So he started talking to the guy and they said, you know, if you're interested, come and meet, you know, at this certain time. And so that's when he met. I think the first meeting he had was with Doty. And the guy known as he called Falcon, which was apparently was a old retired CIA agent called Harry Rozitsky, who has since passed away. And I think it was like, do.

Unknown Host (21:44)

We know anything about him? Rozicky?

Greg Bishop (21:47)

Yeah, you go look him up. And you will know more than I do because a lot of stuff has come out about him since I first. What's come out, who he was, what he worked on. His specialty was Soviet operations. He'd come out of OSS in World War II and I think he'd worked with Reinhard Galen and some of the Nazis afterwards to set up intelligence networks in Europe because. Because of the Russians. And he'd also, you know, he'd also been in Afghanistan, I think, and it was monitoring Soviet radio transmissions there. He did a lot. He was basically. Was there one of their Soviet experts. And so in the late 70s, early 80s, when this. When the period we're talking about, they pulled him out of retirement to help run this unofficial operation against the Russians and Chinese and whoever else. And they needed somebody from the ufo, like, research community as kind of a contact. So they approached, I think, a bunch of different people, and a few of them said yes, and Bill was one of them.

Unknown Host (22:58)

Do we have any sense of what Doty had? So Doty's obviously going to play this sort of villain role in this whole story. You know, he's the main kind of, you know, Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who enters Benowitz's life and, you know, plants all sorts of BS and. And kind of screws with him mentally. Do we know anything about his history up until that point?

Greg Bishop (23:20)

Who?

Unknown Host (23:20)

Dote's.

Greg Bishop (23:21)

Yeah, I don't know too much about it. All I know is what he said, and it's like, what am I gonna do with what he said? He said he was a guard at Area 51. I have no idea.

Unknown Host (23:30)

It's hard to take that at face value. Well, I. He also said, I think his father worked at Area 51. Are you familiar with that history? Dolan told me that. Richard Dolan?

Greg Bishop (23:39)

Yeah. I think maybe. Yeah. Well, Dolan will probably know.

Unknown Host (23:42)

Yeah. Another.

Greg Bishop (23:43)

I don't think he ever mentioned that, but, you know, he could. He would probably take stories like that and kind of, you know, mix and match them.

Unknown Host (23:49)

Another interesting data point on Doty. I know very little about him before the Benowitz story, but he shows up at Mario Woods's case. So Mario woods is at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota in 1977. He's a missile security officer. And he not only sees a craft.

Greg Bishop (24:08)

I see this light off to my east.

Unknown Host (24:11)

He claims that these beings walked up to him. He then gets a hypnotic regression and he discusses being inside of a craft. Wakes up 10 miles away, you know, and it's. I think it's. It's. It's dawn. So, like, hours. It was like the whole night had elapsed.

Greg Bishop (24:26)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (24:27)

And his. His partner Michael Johnson's in a catatonic state.

Greg Bishop (24:30)

I even tried pulling his hand off.

Unknown Host (24:31)

That steering wheel, and he has no idea what's happened to him. And he then is debriefed by, you know, a slew of official, you know, people at Ellsworth Air Force Base. And one of the guys is Rick Doty.

Greg Bishop (24:44)

Next to him was this new OSI guy named Rick Doty.

Unknown Host (24:52)

Interesting.

Greg Bishop (24:53)

Yeah. Because the first time I saw him was on Ancient Aliens and I said, I know that guy. He was at my debrief.

Unknown Host (24:59)

So that's kind of interesting as well.

Greg Bishop (25:00)

What year was that? 77.

Unknown Host (25:02)

A year or two before.

Greg Bishop (25:04)

Yeah. Well, maybe if, if true, that's probably why Doty was tracked into this.

Unknown Host (25:08)

Right.

Greg Bishop (25:09)

Because I think he has an interest in the UFO subject. Because I believe, just like we all do, it's just that part of his job was to mess with people concerning it totally. Which he enjoyed.

Unknown Host (25:18)

The weird part is, is like there's. Mario's is one of the strongest cases. You know, I'm. I'm like you. I think a lot of UFO stuff is bullshit. But Mario's to me, I've spent a lot of time with the guy. It just pattern matches to one of these nuclear cases where like clearly there is an overwhelming nuclear pattern that goes above and beyond, in my opinion, the ability for humans to coordinate. So it's interesting that Doty was probably part of a debrief around a real case.

Greg Bishop (25:46)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (25:46)

And then is also involved in this sort of asserting himself as, you know, counter intel guy in this other case.

Greg Bishop (25:52)

Yeah. Well, maybe when that stuff came up, they're like, well, either he said something or this guy knows. You know, this is just speculation.

Unknown Host (25:58)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (25:59)

And Rozicki apparently handpicked all these people to be part of this operation. I asked more about it once and he said, well, think of it as a giant. Because what he said was the Benowitz thing was one cog in a giant wheel connected to a bunch of other giant wheels that you would never notice. The only reason it's noticed is because it's ufo. People have kind of made it into a big, A big story. Not that it isn't, but, you know, there are a lot of other parts of this counter intel that was going on in the late 70s, early 80s, before the Berlin Wall fell and all that that people don't know about. The only reason this came out is because it had to do with UFOs. So people are interested in that subject, obviously. But what he said, the other thing he said to me later was imagine the Benowitz operation as a 24 hour long stage play.

Unknown Host (26:48)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (26:49)

It's like you and Benowitz is five minutes in one scene. Not even. That's how much of the entire. Because when UFO people and researchers, et cetera, hear about this, they're like, oh my God, it's so important. It's like it was a tiny little piece in a big wheel that was working with a lot of other things to like, here's one more way we can, you know, mess with and vet out Soviet assets. And that's what he was using it for. I don't think Rosicky gave less of a crap about UFOs. All he cared about is what he could do with it. It's another thing I had put on a t shirt. What UFOs are a Swiss army knife for intelligence. They can use them for anything.

Unknown Host (27:37)

Yeah. We were just talking earlier that people make a Rorschach test.

Greg Bishop (27:41)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (27:41)

And you could insert ufo. Like I find this interesting with like the JFK assassination. If you were a counter intel agent, you would say that the JFK assassination was only, you know, it was only UFOs. Like say you wanted to detract from the fact.

Greg Bishop (27:58)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (27:58)

That it was, you know, nuclear, you know, that JFK wanted to defang the American nuclear arsenal or that he get.

Greg Bishop (28:04)

Rid of them, get rid of the.

Unknown Host (28:06)

CIA and so they retaliating or whatever. You throw people down the trail with this thing, UFOs, and then it's. You can track the people that talk about it. With respect to UFOs, UFOs are sort of a proxy for somebody's kind of irreverence towards, you know, earthly authorities or something. And open mindedness generally, you know, you can track Soviet spies or traitors or whatever.

Greg Bishop (28:28)

Take something that people have a really strong emotional attachment to, but no way to prove any of it. And that's a big ass wrench in the. Oh yeah, in the toolbox.

Unknown Host (28:38)

Totally.

Greg Bishop (28:38)

Because if you're emotionally attached to something, you can be led around by the nose. So sometimes when people get excited, it's like detach your emotions from this because you're not going to see the bigger picture if you're just looking at this thing.

Unknown Host (28:54)

Well, not only that, you're making yourself susceptible to counterintelligence.

Greg Bishop (28:58)

Exactly. It snowballs.

Unknown Host (29:01)

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Greg Bishop (30:39)

I think, oh, more interacted with them just because through apro. And it was very soon, I think after he was contacted because he said that, oh, there's another part of the story. The reason they met with him after that phone call is he was one of the few, because they sent that letter out to different people, that supposed letter from somebody in the military that had seen a UFO at close range. And he was one of the few that said this is bs before he met with Rozytsky and Doty, they gave him one more test. They gave him a memo showing that there was some sort of a UFO sighting, I guess in central or southern New Mexico in the late 40s or early 50s. And it was, I believe it was called. It was part of a project called Silver sky because the memo was called the Silver Sky Memo. He went and checked it out and found out that was BS too. So he, like, when they finally talked to him, they said, you're the only person that just. You actually went out and found out that this stuff was false.

Unknown Host (31:43)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (31:43)

And they kind of, for some reason, they wanted somebody who was. Had an investigative mind, like could kind of dig out whether something was BS or not or was a false flag or not or whatever. You want to call it. And that's why they picked him.

Unknown Host (31:57)

I think Bill Moore was a pretty decent UFO investigator. Like if you read the Philadelphia Experiment, you know, I don't know, it's. I haven't corroborated whether all of the details that he discusses are right. And I have a reason to believe there's a lot of counterintelligence around the Philadelphia Experiment. This is again, this case.

Greg Bishop (32:14)

Oh, yeah.

Unknown Host (32:15)

1942, where, you know, a ship was rumored to be zapped from a Philadelphia Navy port to Norfolk, Virginia.

Greg Bishop (32:23)

Yeah. Time travel, whatever.

Unknown Host (32:25)

Travel. Thomas Brown.

Greg Bishop (32:27)

There's a movie made of it.

Unknown Host (32:28)

There's a movie.

Greg Bishop (32:28)

Charlie Bastin was in it.

Unknown Host (32:30)

And there are rumors that the theater sailors in the ship were fused to the hull. And you had all these screams. And then you have this guy coming out later saying he was a time.

Greg Bishop (32:40)

Traveler as a result of Carlos Allende.

Unknown Host (32:43)

Carlos Allende is the guy who leaked the story to Morris Jessup, who was a pseudonym. The real guy's name was Carl Allen, who was a merchant marine. A Navy merchant marine.

Greg Bishop (32:55)

Yeah. The Carlos. Yeah.

Unknown Host (32:56)

And so anyway, interesting story. And Bill Moore writes about this whole story in like, I think a pretty, you know, hard headed, you know, maybe you get some things wrong, but like, he's a. He's a good researcher. He's not. I don't think he's a bad researcher. So. But he seems to lend a lot of credibility to the fact that Rosicky and Doty can give him secret information. So he's going to comply.

Greg Bishop (33:19)

Or, well, at least somebody that Rosetsky knows is going to hand him dossiers of stuff. He had to go. One time he was told in the middle of this, he said, go to this hotel room in upstate New York. There will be somebody there to meet you. They just gave him an envelope with all these old documents in it and said, you got 20 minutes.

Unknown Host (33:36)

Yep.

Greg Bishop (33:36)

Because what can I do? And they said, anything you want. You just can't keep the documents. So he had a 35 millimeter camera. He just hurriedly took pictures of all of them.

Unknown Host (33:43)

Whoa.

Greg Bishop (33:44)

This happened more than once in. In various forms.

Unknown Host (33:47)

Yep.

Greg Bishop (33:48)

And I. And that was the exchange for keeping tabs on people and saying what this person doing. What are they thinking? As he told me later. And actually he told other people, none of them ever really amounted to anything. The MJ12 stuff, the Eisenhower briefing memo, when he first released the report on them in this book called the MJ12 Papers, the thing actually said, compelling but not conclusive. That's all it said. And then after a few years, he said, I don't think. I don't think almost anything I was given was actually true. 100% UFO information.

Unknown Host (34:20)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (34:20)

It was all either around it or completely made up.

Unknown Host (34:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (34:23)

And he said he kind of felt. He kind of felt used and cheated.

Unknown Host (34:27)

Sure. How does Moore and Doty proceed to trick Benowitz into believing he is detecting more than he is when it comes to alien signals and UFOs?

Greg Bishop (34:40)

People are going to argue with me. But as I recall it, and I wrote, Bennett's was his own worst enemy. The only problem was he had people around him not contradicting him and encouraging him and. And then occasionally saying something. The only thing I know that Bill Moore did was he was told to give Benowitz a document called the Aquarius document or memo or something like that. And it said it was. There was a little different pieces of ufo, like examinations of footage. It's like, this looks good, this doesn't, apparently from some government source. And one of Benowitz's or two of Benowitz's films are mentioned in that. I know that because you look at it and you go, oh, that's. It says, I think Albuquerque Kirtland or something like that. But there are analysis. Analyses of his films in part, and they were encouraging. It's like, well, this is unidentified. We don't know what it is. But he was. Moore was told to give that to Benowitz, said, hand him this document as far as I know, and. Or he never admitted it to me. He never actually went to Paul and Paul Benowitz and said, look into this. This is important. This was leaked to me. He was basically there just kind of monitor him, as far as I know. But Paul Bennet was so excited about what he was seeing and so convinced of whatever he thought became reality that it was really easy just to mislead him with a little push here and there. Well, that sounds interesting, Paul. Why don't you look into that a little further instead of. Don't worry about that. That's not part of anything. Everything was encouraged as long as it pushed him away from any secret projects or information.

Unknown Host (36:24)

And you see Benowitz start to get more and more fervent in his interest. And he's doing flights around Archuleta Mesa where he thinks maybe there's some other.

Greg Bishop (36:34)

They took him up there and showed it to him because they wanted him to pay attention to that rather than a Kirtland anymore. It's like, let's just draw his attention away from there and to in furtherance of that. And, you know, Doty told me this. I think Moore told me this. And then a few people around the area, around the Hickory Apache area. Paul was very excited when he told him that the Air Force had taken him in a helicopter from Kirtland, flown, flown him up to northwestern New Mexico to the Archuleta Mesa, which is on the Hickory Apache Reservation, and showed him stuff, saying, look, that we think there's something going on here. They actually put jeeps and like water tanks and all kind of stuff in this place as props. So he would be concentrating on that. The funny thing is that apparently there was some sort of crash up there within that period after that. So there was a Stealth fighter or maybe it was a drone or something that definitely crashed there. But he did. He never took pictures of it close enough where you could tell what it was. Oh, no. He got up there after they'd cleaned it up. So you see like this burned area. And Gabe said they went up there and found, you know, broken up brush and evidence that something had been picked up and a pen that said US Government property on it. So something happened there that was very important. And maybe they just thought, you know what, this is even better because now he's really going to concentrate up there. And he made drawings of what he thought he saw, and I included those in the book. And they kind of morphed depending on what he was thinking at the time. He had like one version of it and then he said it was a craft that the aliens had given to the United States government and the government was flying and they didn't know how to do it and it crashed. And so it just. It gets more and more Byzantine and complicated and, you know, and his paranoia.

Unknown Host (38:26)

Builds and is there a good prosaic explanation for the orbs that he initially saw going over that mountain next to Kirtland, or.

Greg Bishop (38:35)

The only thing I can think of, and based on what I was heard and on Chris Lambright's book X Descending, it was some sort of project either with drones or some sort of unconventional flying objects that. That had some sort of glow to them. Whether you can ascribe that to having like a lighter than air with a light in it or, you know, Chinese lantern type thing or some kind of weird energy or something like that, I don't know. But they seemed, apparently they seemed solid and they didn't move like airplanes. And they. They tested them at night.

Unknown Host (39:10)

So how was he detecting any sort of signals to begin with coming out of the base?

Greg Bishop (39:15)

Because he was an electronics engineer and he built things to pick up, I guess, a wide range of radio signals, probably centered on the military bands of signals, not just, you know, like FM or AM or shortwave or anything. And he built an antenna array. He had all these machines for analyzing the signal. And he built all this from scratch. Nobody had any of this stuff, or he jury rigged some of the stuff from his lab. But he built apparently a setup and started listening to transmissions coming from the base, which is a huge problem if you're trying to be a security person at Kirtland. You know, people shouldn't even be listening to this, much less inventing machines and equipment to listen to it in the first. First place. Because if he's doing it, other people can do it. So that's what they're worried about. But he thought he could pick up, as far as I remember, he thought he could pick up transmissions that aliens were beaming either to each other or to the military or something.

Unknown Host (40:23)

And why did he think whatever he was picking up was alien?

Greg Bishop (40:27)

Because it didn't comport with anything he could conceptualized.

Unknown Host (40:32)

So just the fact that it was kind of anomalous. There was no, like, actual message.

Greg Bishop (40:36)

It might have been, from what I've heard and what I've assumed, which might be wrong, is it was. It was telemetry for missile guidance or something like that. It was microbursts.

Unknown Host (40:46)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (40:46)

So, you know, they sounded like. And he would slow them down. Sure. And he thought he was hearing patterns in it and saying, these are the aliens doing this. And he was using this, this setup. And Gabe told me about it. He said he saw that setup, but he also saw the setup, apparently after JL and Hynek showed up. So what Bill told me, and of course everybody's like, well, he's telling you this because it's disinformation. Heineck wouldn't do such a thing. Sometime, I believe in the early 81 or so, maybe even earlier 80, 81, something like that, J. Allen Hynek showed up at Paul's door with a computer, an entirely built, already made computer, and said, this will help you with the signals. And Bill told me that since Hynek knew that Bill was doing some of this spy stuff somehow.

Unknown Host (41:40)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (41:40)

They went to or he told them enough that Hynek kind of got it because, you know, Heineck had been employed by the airport Air force since the 1960s, and apparently in the early 80s, he was still on the payroll. He just wasn't doing very much.

Unknown Host (41:52)

Yeah, it Sounds like he was complicit in this whole thing where.

Greg Bishop (41:55)

Yeah, but I think that he didn't know what was on the computer. Otherwise, he had a conscience. He might have said, I don't want to do this.

Unknown Host (42:02)

Okay, so. Okay, so they give him the computer. Benowitz then starts to pick up even more on this computer.

Greg Bishop (42:08)

So at some point, somebody at the base or at one, you know, any number of intelligence agencies that were. That had presence there to make sure that the security was tight, decided, why don't we just give him a computer with stuff on it and let him pick it up and then have it, you know, because he thought the Air Force was cooperating with him, like he was bringing the information they needed. He was, but not the kind that he thought.

Unknown Host (42:35)

So he thought he was doing sort of vital work, security work, to decipher these alien signals.

Greg Bishop (42:40)

They said, you know, we're interested in what you're doing, Paul. Please keep talking to us. Tell us what you're doing. It's important for national security or whatever. And he's like, oh, okay.

Unknown Host (42:48)

But I think even more explicitly, he picks up certain messages that he interprets as, like, we've given the US eight crafts, or, like, specific things.

Greg Bishop (42:58)

Yeah. He starts decoding things, and the decodings are basically based on his pareidolia about what should be coming out of those messages.

Unknown Host (43:06)

Pareidolia, by the way, for the audience, is seeing a pattern where it doesn't exist, which is a human tendency.

Greg Bishop (43:11)

Yeah, yeah. It's an evolutionary thing. You got to see patterns so you can survive.

Unknown Host (43:16)

Yes.

Greg Bishop (43:16)

Um, so. But it does us a disservice when it's things like this.

Unknown Host (43:20)

Yeah, sure.

Greg Bishop (43:21)

Because you can make patterns out of stuff that don't exist. So that's what he was doing.

Unknown Host (43:24)

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Greg Bishop (45:12)

I'm not sure if the stuff that I put in there in the book has deciphered code.

Unknown Host (45:17)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (45:18)

I'm not sure if that's before or after the computer. Okay, it might be after because it seems really detailed.

Unknown Host (45:25)

Okay, so what, what else did he receive?

Greg Bishop (45:27)

Generally, just that there were aliens from another planet. They were here. They were trying to establish a base. They needed Earth women or something. It sounds like a science fiction movie.

Unknown Host (45:36)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (45:37)

To propagate their race. Their planet was dying.

Unknown Host (45:40)

Wow.

Greg Bishop (45:41)

All this stuff. And that they were at some point going to take over. And so that's what really scared him. And I think he was saying that before and this computer just basically said, okay, let's take what he's saying and just crank it up.

Unknown Host (45:53)

And across the street there maybe are some NSA officials.

Greg Bishop (45:57)

Yes, maybe that happened. I mean, that's. I, the person that told me that was, was, was Bill.

Unknown Host (46:03)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (46:04)

And since he's my friend, I trust him. People say this about Bill. It's like, why do you trust him? It's like I've never found him to be lying to me ever. I've known him for what, 35 years or more.

Unknown Host (46:15)

Well, if.

Greg Bishop (46:15)

Never lied to me once, if anything.

Unknown Host (46:17)

His ability to off himself at MUFON and say that he was complicit in wrongdoing is probably maybe some sort of indicator that you should trust him also. I don't know why he would make that up. I mean, that seems if, if you were to you know, incept signals into a mainframe computer. The NSA would be the ones to do. I mean, there's signals intelligence. That's what they do.

Greg Bishop (46:45)

Yeah, exactly. So somebody programmed it for him. Heineck brought it to the door, he hooked it up, and then started immediately seeing these messages. He also saw pictures. He thought he. He thought he was looking into the alien planet, into the future and past of the Earth. He had a little oscilloscope, or at least a crt.

Unknown Host (47:05)

Oh, my God.

Greg Bishop (47:06)

Analog CRT with, you know, with the scans and.

Unknown Host (47:09)

What is crt?

Greg Bishop (47:11)

Cathode ray tube. Okay, like old TV screens.

Unknown Host (47:14)

Yeah, got it, got it.

Greg Bishop (47:16)

And somebody had just put this video in there for him. Gabe told me he went over there and saw some of. He said they were dinosaurs and like. Like old. Like, Roman battles and stuff, but they were probably from old movies, but they were all garbled and weird. And Gabe said he saw this. So somebody was beaming this junk at him.

Unknown Host (47:34)

Oh, man.

Greg Bishop (47:35)

And apparently they set up across the street and to send these signals into the computer that would be decoded in the way the computer was designed to decode them. And he thought it was coming from inside the base because I think they probably just sent him at the same frequency.

Unknown Host (47:49)

And then he starts to kind of lose his mind. Is that right, or.

Greg Bishop (47:54)

Yeah. As things get worse, he starts losing sleep. He thinks there's going to be some sort of alien invasion. The woman, Myrna Hansen, that he had coming to his house in the 80s, talking about. She was talking about being abducted and going to this underground facility, which really, that stuff is. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's formed so much of the UFO lore afterward. So a lot of stuff happening at the time that Paul was dealing with just became part of the UFO lore. And yes, there's independent people that have said that this happened to them. I don't know where they get that information. Maybe it's been, you know, Disinfo beamed at them, you know, said to them, too. I don't know. Yeah, but a lot of the. A lot of the tropes kind of started back then. He said there, you know, there was an alien base underground at the Archillota Mesa. He went there with a camera and took pictures. Well, he said, of things going in and out of the mountain, but they. Basically, they're just like blurs.

Unknown Host (48:48)

Whoa.

Greg Bishop (48:49)

And it could be something, but it'd also be camera, you know, artifacts. Who knows? Nothing I've seen of the pictures he took up of The Archuleta Mesa area really amount to. There's no, like, clear, like, Billy Meyer looking picture. But, you know, a couple of the things he. Videos he took in at Kirtland show. There's one of them that looks like a saucer kind of like this. And there's a. There's a. There's a PSA Pacific Southwest Airlines plane flying behind it. So who knows what that thing was. But as nobody came in and said, paul, stop. You know, Jesus. Bill said he tried. He did give him that Aquarius document. And it actually mentions access only to MJ12, which is the first time anybody said anything about MJ12.

Unknown Host (49:36)

That's interesting.

Greg Bishop (49:36)

Was in this fake document, the Aquarius document.

Unknown Host (49:38)

Wow.

Greg Bishop (49:39)

And it says, quote, MJ T W E L V E, unquote.

Unknown Host (49:44)

Whoa.

Greg Bishop (49:45)

Yeah. So somebody was trying to plant that in the. In the culture then, too, like in, you know, 1981 or whenever he got this document. But Bill was told to give him this. This the only documented thing, that document, at least by Bill, where he said, they told me to do this, and they told me if I didn't give him that thing that the deal was off. And he read it, he knew what it was. He's like, this is bs so he went to Paul's office, and he was trained. They gave him spy training. Bill, they had him doing other stuff, too. They had him like, you know, passing mail through and doing, you know, stuff with Soviet spies.

Unknown Host (50:24)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (50:25)

On our side, spies in the Soviet Union, they would send postcards and you'd have to, like, read them on a telephone call. Exactly. And then take them to another post office and mail it from that post office to the next post office. Spy stuff. But he said that he. They finally. Because he hesitated, it's like, I. I don't know if I want to do this. He said it was like, you know, you're a kid, they tell the Mafia, says, why don't you stand on the corner and look, tell me if this car comes by. And then the next week you're burying bodies, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, it wasn't that bad. But he's like kind of. He kind of just gets wormed into this.

Unknown Host (50:58)

Yep.

Greg Bishop (50:59)

This structure, this, this. This intelligence structure. So he said that he took the. The. Finally he said, okay, you know, I'm going to give it to Paul. He goes down to his office, tells, you know, meet me at your office at a certain time. And he takes them, he says, get a radio, and they go in the supply closet, he said, and he turned the radio up, and he gave him the thing and said, I was told to give this to you. Take it with a grain of salt. And he said, as far as he knew, Paul never said anything about it. And he just put it in his safe at the. At work. So he did this with Paul. Paul took it, didn't say anything about it, but it certainly affected his mindset and his thinking. It's like, oh, my God, I'm important. They're paying attention to me. I'm getting the secret information. What happened was his family got worried about him. They're like, geez, you know, he's not doing his work. He's staying up all the time. He's chain smoking. Like, he'd smoke a whole pack of cigarettes over lunch while Bill talked to him. He's like, paul, yeah, yeah. You know, everybody was telling him to calm down while knowing what was causing what was going on. They're like, you know, Dodie said he even told him. Yeah, but he couldn't. He couldn't control. You know, I don't know if you've ever been in a paranoid state where just everything makes sense, everything that is arrayed against you. Every conversation you hear. William Burroughs talks about this. It's a great lecture. He talks about. Talked about this.

Unknown Host (52:27)

But, yeah, I think in UFO world, you can get into this sort of solipsistic mindset where you, oh, this is all an illusion or whatever. If there are other beings and I'm in community, it becomes this. You're living in the Da Vinci Code or something.

Greg Bishop (52:41)

Yeah, exactly. And he couldn't get out of that loop. And his family is just like, oh, my God. So they actually put him in a mental health facility for like a month or so, because there's these. I've heard people still say he died in a mental institution or he killed himself. Like, no, his family was worried about him. They put him in a minute like a mental health facility for like a month or two until he calmed down. And when he came out of it, he was still interested in the stuff, but it wasn't running his life.

Unknown Host (53:05)

That's good.

Greg Bishop (53:05)

And then I think he realized, probably from talking to his family and maybe even Bill, like, just, you know, you want. Don't want to go to an early grave. Please relax.

Unknown Host (53:14)

Yep. And Dodie then comes out and admits, I befriended Paul that was tasked to do that, and I sent him down the wrong path, and I would continuously feed him passage material. Passage material is classic kind of spook.

Greg Bishop (53:33)

You know, I don't know if he did or not. But I wouldn't put it past. I don't. I don't know if Bill was privy to that or anybody I talked to was. And Dodie didn't tell me that. Maybe because he didn't want to say that.

Unknown Host (53:45)

I just mean passage material, not in terms of documentation. I just mean like wrong information.

Greg Bishop (53:49)

Oh, yeah. I mean, he could have done that anytime. Paul said. Like I said before, Paul would say, this is happening. Don't we think? Yeah, you know what? I have indication that that's happening. Maybe you should check it out.

Unknown Host (53:58)

Right.

Greg Bishop (53:59)

I mean, that kind of thing. And it just kind of builds on itself.

Unknown Host (54:01)

Yeah. And. And John Lear, who's obviously implicated in the Bob Lazar story and sort of, you know, says all sorts of insane things around this.

Greg Bishop (54:10)

Yeah. He worked for Air America and all this stuff. So I think John Lear was like Benowitz Part two, because he communicated with Benowitz after this.

Unknown Host (54:18)

Right. So, yeah, that's the interesting thing is in some ways, John Lear seems like he was fed maybe a ton of disinformation, but he also meets with Benowitz. Are you familiar with this? Did you know that?

Greg Bishop (54:27)

Yeah. And then Bennett multiple times till Benowitz got mad at him and said he didn't want to talk to him.

Unknown Host (54:31)

Right. Yeah.

Greg Bishop (54:32)

I can't remember what the breakup was about, but yeah, Ben, he met with Benowitz a few times and just like asked him questions.

Unknown Host (54:40)

And I think John Lear was subject to the same disinfo as Benowitz. Or do you think he was? I think with both. Okay.

Greg Bishop (54:48)

Not because I could sit here and say that's what happened, but the indications to me is. Is from his actions and what he. You know what? I was told that when I was told he was met with Benowitz and how is. And how Bennett's reacted to him. And also the fact that I think somebody asked Lear at one point about something about. God, I wish I knew exactly what it was. I know who told me so I can ask them. But he said, well, John, what about, you know, all this stuff up at, you know, the underground base up at Archill at a Mesa and the Hickory Apache and this, you know, this big firefight and all that. And I don't know if it was that story, but Lear said, oh, yeah, I made that up. He actually said this.

Unknown Host (55:32)

He literally says, I made that up to.

Greg Bishop (55:34)

In confidence or at least privately to this one guy right before one of those first congressional hearings about UFO stuff in the. Think it was the early 90s or something. Like that it was. It might have been one of the ones that Greer set up. I'm not sure. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, Lear admitted this and because of his, you know, previous background flying for Air America, which he touted a lot, saying I was one of the, you know, he's got an intelligence background, so CIA cargo pilot. Yeah. So he, you know, he very well may have been tasked to check up on Benowitz and feed him more stuff after the fact.

Unknown Host (56:08)

But you're giving Jaylen Hynek the benefit of the doubt.

Greg Bishop (56:12)

Only because what I know of him is that if he knew that's what it was, I don't think he'd have done it.

Unknown Host (56:20)

I'm not so sure. Well, I don't know. You know, I don't have a ton of reasonable. It's just a guess that my only, you know, I think of that, you know, documentary UFOs, past, present and future.

Greg Bishop (56:31)

Emineggers.

Unknown Host (56:32)

Yes, Robert Eminegger. And Rod Serling's doing the, you know, narration.

Greg Bishop (56:37)

I interviewed Bob a couple of times on my show.

Unknown Host (56:39)

Interesting.

Greg Bishop (56:40)

Yeah, I'd love to. He's a cool guy. I liked him.

Unknown Host (56:42)

Seems like a cool guy. Well, he. It seems like he was maybe one of the first examples of this, you know, using UFOs as a strategy to sort of lure people in. Because he is in communications with Norton Air Force Base, and I believe he goes there and everybody there is talking to him about UFOs and they're telling him that they are going to give him, you know, the Holloman land. The Holloman landing. Exactly. Al Magordo, earlier, I think, in the, in the, in the 60s. And so he gets all excited and they say they're going to give him footage. And they keep saying they're going to give him footage, they're going to give him footage. And then the footage never really appears. And he's. He's actually. He is shown a little. He says.

Greg Bishop (57:24)

I think he was. Or is his, like one of his partners, Bob Shardle, or think something saw it.

Unknown Host (57:30)

Yeah. Alan Sandler, another guy.

Greg Bishop (57:32)

What did you see on the film? Was it color? Was it black and white? Was it black and white? It was black and white when I saw you. Black and white, friend. But it was nothing other than what we said in the book. We see this thing, this round thing.

Unknown Host (57:45)

And it wasn't that stable. Funny part. And it landed and a door opened.

Greg Bishop (57:50)

And guys come up looking like they.

Unknown Host (57:51)

Were outer space guys.

Greg Bishop (57:53)

Yeah, it was Sandler. So one of them actually said they Saw it.

Unknown Host (57:56)

I think even Emonager says he saw it briefly or something. And then you have this video that ends up you have mostly, like, this animation rendition and UFOs past, present and future that they have to do because they don't have the real footage. Yeah, but there's also a little bit of footage. And that footage has now been debunked as an F4. And the F4 came out, I think, in, like, 59 or something. So it was like. Right. Like, it was probably, like, not, you know, well known at the time. And it was definitely flying, you know, around Holloman. And so I almost feel like the first kind of, you know, Rorschach test, you know, throwing people off the trail, was that documentary. And J. Allen Hynek is obviously a big part of the documentary. So was J. Allen Heinecke used in that documentary as well?

Greg Bishop (58:42)

I don't know, because he was through this whole thing. He was still getting a check from the Air Force.

Unknown Host (58:46)

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. So I don't know.

Greg Bishop (58:48)

But does that mean you know what you're doing? Does that mean somebody tells you everything that's going on when you're getting a check?

Unknown Host (58:54)

I don't know. But one other data point about JLN Hynek is, you know, Jacques Vallee was like, his kind of understudy. His assistant, Jacques Vallee finds this pentacle memoir in the Bluebook files.

Greg Bishop (59:06)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (59:06)

And he goes to Jalen Heineken. He's like, what the fuck? Because the pentacle memo is like this whole, you know, Battelle Memorial Institute secret UFO research program that is looking at, you know, these hot aerial hotspots, presumably around nuclear. If you look at what was happening at the time, and John Heineck is like, wait, what's going on? Like, you're not allowed. Apparently you weren't allowed to mention the pentacle. You know, this is written by a guy named Howard C. Cross. You weren't allowed to mention that program in the Robertson memo or Robertson panel, which creates a Robinson Memo, which is basically the Constitution of Blue Book. It creates the mandate for Blue Book to kind of explain away and rationalize, you know, this stuff. And then J. Allen or Vale comes out saying, you know, I was convinced that Jalen Hynek actually, you know, didn't know about the pentacle memo and this other thing. But, like, I don't know, there are all these cases where Jalen Hynek has to, like, play dumb. And I'm like, I don't know, dude. I think you might have known a thing or two because he seems like a smart guy.

Greg Bishop (60:06)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (60:07)

So.

Greg Bishop (60:07)

Oh, no, I don't think he was dumb. But not being told something doesn't mean you're dumb. It just means you don't know it.

Unknown Host (60:12)

No, I know, but it's like, you know, maybe three times where he could be complicit in.

Greg Bishop (60:17)

Oh, yeah.

Unknown Host (60:18)

And I'm like, how many other times? You know, those are just three times that.

Greg Bishop (60:20)

I'm pretty sure he showed up at the computer. I'm pretty sure he gave it to Bedowitz. I don't know. Yeah. The crux is, does he. Did he know what was on the computer? Did he know what did. When did. What did he know and when did he know it?

Unknown Host (60:33)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (60:34)

So I don't know. Yeah, there's no way to find that out. I tried to ask Q Fos when I was writing the book. Do you have any. Any correspondence with Heineck during this time? And they said they'd help me, like three times. They never responded. They probably just thought I was a crazy person.

Unknown Host (60:47)

Yeah. Well, far be it for my to try to offend, you know, a UFO legend in jail and hiding like, he's. He's definitely contributed.

Greg Bishop (60:54)

I don't feel I'm going to err on the. On the side of, like, what I'd like to think, which is basically my whole MO because unless something convinces me that something's one way, I'm going to. I'm going to think the thing that makes me feel better until I get contributing. Because, you know, because. Because if I don't, I go down the paranoid path.

Unknown Host (61:14)

Yeah, but I view the thrust of your work as inconvenient truths that you are laying out before people. And I like that. I mean, that's an interesting way.

Greg Bishop (61:23)

I checked up on the stuff myself. That's why I believe it. If I hadn't checked up on it, if I hadn't written Project Beta. Yeah, I would probably doubt it more because, you know, I didn't experience. I wouldn't be an experience what I experienced. I talked to the people I talked to. Yes. I don't know if I was lied to with Dodi. I know was lied to a few times. So, like 95% or more, 97% of what we told, he told me, is not in the book because there's no way to tell. And the stuff where I just got it from in it was relevant to the story. I said, dodie's, the only person that told me this.

Unknown Host (61:56)

One other interesting data point is in 1982, Rick Doty gets in touch with another UFO researcher, Linda Moulton Howe, and she's showing a bunch of documents around Presidential, you know, knowledge of UFOs and aliens, as well as Project Garnet, which involves accelerated evolution of humanity with alien intervention. Is that right?

Greg Bishop (62:19)

That I don't remember.

Unknown Host (62:20)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (62:21)

See, a lot of stuff I wrote about, more stuff has come out since then. Some of which is accurate, some of which isn't.

Unknown Host (62:27)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (62:28)

And you may very well be right. I do not know what was in those documents. I thought it had something to do partially with some of the cattle mutilation stuff she was doing, but it was a bunch of different.

Unknown Host (62:36)

Yeah, no, well, I believe it had both, but this is based partially.

Greg Bishop (62:39)

She was very excited. I actually talked to Tom Adams, I think, afterwards, who was a cattle mutilation researcher, and she went up and visited them. Right. Like a couple days after that. And she was like, over the moon. She's like, oh my God, I saw all this great stuff. It's so important.

Unknown Host (62:56)

Right.

Greg Bishop (62:56)

So she, she, she took the bait at the time. I don't know what she thinks about it now.

Unknown Host (63:00)

Yeah, well, she was later interviewed in a, in a documentary and she was like, I just don't want you to paint this. That the whole UFO thing is bs. I was tricked in this one instance. But the idea that UFOs are a cover for just prosaic technology is totally wrong. In fact, it's the opposite. Prosaic technology is often used as a cover for you of a. It's an interesting discussion.

Greg Bishop (63:25)

Yeah, it's probably both. In fact, it's demonstrably both.

Unknown Host (63:29)

Well, there you go. Yeah, it's sort of, you know, but that, that's.

Greg Bishop (63:33)

Yeah, it's separate from the UFO issue itself, which, you know, people think that after I wrote that book, you think it's all like, military. It's like. No.

Unknown Host (63:41)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (63:42)

There's no way that the entire UFO phenomenon is. Is military or intelligence connected.

Unknown Host (63:48)

So you just used. Some of the UFO stuff is genuinely anomalous. And by genuinely anomalous, I mean not explained by prosaic atmospheric conditions.

Greg Bishop (63:59)

Oh, definitely.

Unknown Host (64:00)

And not explained by military tech advanced.

Greg Bishop (64:03)

Definitely.

Unknown Host (64:04)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (64:04)

I mean, there's. There's so many hundreds of thousands of things that have no connection to the military. Anything.

Unknown Host (64:11)

I agree with that too. And I find it frustrating that this case that you write about so well needs to be contended with as a modality of how UFOs are used from a counterintelligence perspective. And you need to have those sets of goggles on when viewing everything in the UFO world. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. In some ways, that's maybe even the goal that, like, you. You're losing if you think the whole thing is fake.

Greg Bishop (64:39)

Yeah. Well, that's. There's that belief thing again. If you believe something so strongly, that's all you're ever going to see. And so there's people. There's all kinds of opinions about it, whatever people's beliefs are. But the Project Beta, I mean, I wrote it because. Well, because I made the proposal and the publisher said, let's do this one.

Unknown Host (64:59)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (65:00)

You know, Patrick Quies and Simon and Schuster said, let's do this one. I said, okay, but so many different weird accusations I've had about. It's like, oh, you're cooperating with the government. It's like, no, I was trying to tell a story. That's like saying that some. That's like saying that Vincent Bugliosi cooperated with Manson. He's just writing a story about it.

Unknown Host (65:23)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (65:23)

A very opinionated.

Unknown Host (65:24)

That's a weird analogy because I think Bugliosi, who was the lead prosecutor of the case.

Greg Bishop (65:28)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (65:29)

And wrote Helter Skeleton got a lot of.

Greg Bishop (65:32)

Gerardo Rivera was. Was cooperating with Manson. There you go. They had that weird interview on.

Unknown Host (65:38)

On tv because the Bugliosi thing, like, if you read like Chaos by Tom o', Neal, you kind of are like, Bugliosi had some ulterior motive.

Greg Bishop (65:47)

Oh, yeah.

Unknown Host (65:48)

With the whole thing.

Greg Bishop (65:48)

Oh, he wrote. Didn't he write a. He wrote a book about the Kennedy assassination that said that Oswald did it. And there's no way around that. And that's right.

Unknown Host (65:55)

So for your sake, I want. I just want you to be clear. No ulterior motive for you. Yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (65:59)

No, not for me. Okay. What am I saying? It's. If you report on anything, it means that you agree with it or disagree. It's like, no, I don't agree or disagree with what I put in the book. I think a lot of stuff that happened was absolutely morally wrong and shouldn't have happened.

Unknown Host (66:14)

Yeah, of course you're documented.

Greg Bishop (66:16)

But I'm not going to put that in the book or say anything about it. I've had people, like, at convention, when I first started doing this and lecturing about it, like, why don't you tell. You know, why didn't you just say how wrong it was? It's like, what am I supposed to do. Tell you what you're. What I was moral and is not. I think you got a better sense of what's right and wrong than, you know, I would give you. I could. That I would be assuming it's also. I didn't. I mean, I'm just. You should know as much of the facts as you can and you make up your own decisions based on that.

Unknown Host (66:44)

I think you're also in UFO world. You're kind of setting yourself up for failure if you polemicize everything because you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of right and wrong and truth and untruth. And then you're gonna get stuff wrong. You're dealing with the most speculative stuff. So there were times where I've been tempted to make videos. Like, the most Steel Manning I've done are like. You know, it's like I did this piece on Harold Malmigrin, and I'm probably gonna come up with like, a rebuttal on, you know.

Greg Bishop (67:12)

Oh, yeah, because there was that big Dean Johnson thing about it, which I'm.

Unknown Host (67:16)

Happy to address now. I think it's excruciatingly obvious that Harold Malmgren was CIA. And he says my agency a bunch of times. And his daughter goes the State Department. And he's holding Paul Mellon's walking stick, which he didn't buy at a yard sale. And so Paul Mellon's one of the founders of the CIA. He says Tom Farmer is his best friend, the general counsel of the CIA. He's this spooky trade representative in all these cases. He was helping formulate the presidential daily briefing. Yeah, so the guy was CIA.

Greg Bishop (67:51)

You cannot. A lot of debunking is based on the most likely thing, especially with UFOs. Let's. The most likely thing is a prosaic explanation. So that's the explanation. And we're going to do anything we can. Well, you literally work yourself towards that prosaic explanation because that. That's the. You work from a point of view rather than from a. Well, I've seen which UFO people are completely guilty of.

Unknown Host (68:13)

I've seen his diary, and I don't think it's a fake diary. And Richard Bissell is all over it. Richard Bissell's the founder of Area 51 and the guy who he claimed to get briefed on other world technologies from. And he's. You know, even Dean Johnson admits that he's in his phone book or whatever. So there. There's connectivity there. He says in a 2024 interview before me, I was at the IDA, but that was a cover for my real work for the Joint Chiefs and the Pentagon. So all I'm saying is we. Everybody in the audience believes that probably the CIA killed jfk. And if you really connect the dots, who called the shots there? It was Allen Dulles at the Brown Brothers Harriman. So you're talking about this time where you can't just do a FOIA from the FBI and know that if the person who got their Q clearance through the CIA, you have no idea if they have their Q clearance. That's ridiculous. So I just think that plus a few anecdotes about certain people not being aware of him or whatever is insane as a sort of, like, whole debunk. And then there are a lot of.

Greg Bishop (69:16)

I thought, what I know of it, it sounds like the. The deep. He did the. I think he and a few other people tried. No, it wasn't him. But the Travis Walton case.

Unknown Host (69:23)

Yep.

Greg Bishop (69:24)

And they're. And they talk about this fire tower, and it's like it was right next to the road. It's like, no, it's not. Yeah, it's over a hill. You think they're so stupid they don't know what a fire tower is.

Unknown Host (69:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (69:33)

You know, just stuff like that. Not. I'm not saying the whole story is true because of that.

Unknown Host (69:37)

I'm not either.

Greg Bishop (69:37)

The debunk is so ridiculous on the face of it. Yes, I got ice. One of my friends stopped talking to me because I said, get better evidence if you're going to debunk.

Unknown Host (69:46)

No, it's true. Like, I actually. I like debunks. I like skepticism. It's not like a. Oh, I don't know.

Greg Bishop (69:51)

I don't not want to see a debunk. No, I want to see a good, well done one.

Unknown Host (69:55)

I agree.

Greg Bishop (69:56)

Which takes as much as not everything, but takes as much into account as you can and answers all the different data.

Unknown Host (70:04)

I agree. No, it's like Kendrick and Drake, you know, disses back and forth, except it's great if you do the debunk and then I'll do the debunk of the debunk and we'll get better and we'll get to the truth. And if you win, fantastic, because we're getting close to the truth. So I think it's all. It's all good and it's all love, but yeah, it's a bad. It's not a good debunk in this case. It's just not. And then there's their issues with the, you know, Bluegill triple prime, I think, according to Jeffrey Cruikshank, who I'm in touch with, who's analyzed this stuff really deeply. Apparently Johnson's actually kind of really scared. He realized he got a lot wrong when it came to that. The booster trajectory could not have, you know, it wasn't at all near the plume.

Greg Bishop (70:44)

Right.

Unknown Host (70:44)

And then it's funny, you have disagreements between the debunkers now, where my buddy Marek Von Rankamp, who I think is. Is great, but I think he's wrong in this case, said it was instrumentation pod. And Dean Johnson's like, no, it's not the instrumentation pod. It's the booster. And then Jeff Cruikshank shows that it's not the booster or the instrumentation pod.

Greg Bishop (71:03)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (71:03)

So I think there's people running on.

Greg Bishop (71:05)

This thing like a dog with a bone until, you know, it's. Until it's obvious that it's. They don't have it anymore.

Unknown Host (71:10)

That's right. So anyways, all that's to say, I could be wrong. I am not, you know, I am not the arbiter of truth. I'm covering things. I do feel a little more inclined to defend a guy who just died, who's 89 years old, who, to me, you know, this is probably the softest, most qualitative point I'll make, but just pattern matches to a great statesman who really helped the US in an earnest way over decades and was kind of a quiet operator.

Greg Bishop (71:38)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (71:39)

So that's. That's all I'll say on that.

Greg Bishop (71:42)

But, yeah, an analogy of how I feel about Bill Moore. It's like, I know him. I know his motivations. I know his, you know, political stance. I have his moral code. And all of it fits with what he said.

Unknown Host (71:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (71:55)

And it also fits with how. How upset he gets with people that get it all wrong and then haven't been through it.

Unknown Host (72:00)

Well, I empathize for that. With that. Or sympathize, you know, and I'll. I'll even say this now. I would bet that.

Greg Bishop (72:06)

Or I'm a horrible dupe.

Unknown Host (72:08)

No, for sure. Well, I would say. I'll bet. I would bet that in the future I will have to retract a thing that I cover. Of course. I mean, you are dealing with the most speculative topic on the planet. I mean, I have to. If, you know, so it's like, I will get stuff.

Greg Bishop (72:24)

Be willing to be wrong.

Unknown Host (72:25)

I guarantee I will get stuff wrong. That's the only guarantee. And then, like, if I get stuff right, then it's like the most important stuff ever because it's like so uncorrelated with the consensus reality that, you know, you're contributing in this exciting way. So I think that's the way you have to view everything. You can't take yourself too seriously and attach your ego to any of this.

Greg Bishop (72:44)

Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, it's really hard to detach your ego from whatever opinion or research you've done.

Unknown Host (72:49)

So, getting back to the cord story. So, so, so Rick Doty then comes out after this whole saga and he says that I am now on the side of the truth. And you see him on, you know, ufo, Twitter or whatever and you see him, you know, getting interviewed on Gaia and, you know, saying, we have this many alien races and these were these crashes that really happened. They see these extraterrestrials, these four and.

Greg Bishop (73:14)

A half foot tall, gray colored entities.

Unknown Host (73:18)

He even recently said that Lou Elizondo was part of Space Force disinformation or something. And so he's going after some of the other, you know, whistleblowers in UFO world. What's up with Rick Doty now and is he at all trustworthy?

Greg Bishop (73:35)

The first chapter of that book that I gave you, it defies language. The title is the chat of the chapter is you play the game or you get nothing. And I believe, and what that means is you can be paranoid that somebody's going to tell you BS or disinfo or lead you down a path or whatever, but if you're not in the game playing, you know, if you're not sitting at the table playing cards with people that are just handing you bad cards all the time and occasionally a nice one, you'll never get anything. So. And I think that applies to Dodie maybe a little less now than it used to because I think less of what he says is either true, relevant or whatever. And I think that's mainly because he likes messing with people. That's his personality. He's basically, he's, you know, he's a troll. He likes it. He likes messing. I mean, as far as I can tell, he probably won't want to talk to me again after this. He made a. He made a statement a few years ago, he never wanted to talk to me again.

Unknown Host (74:35)

Wow.

Greg Bishop (74:36)

Because I said something about the Serpo thing where apparently there was some exchange with some other planet in some other star system.

Unknown Host (74:43)

He was a document leak.

Greg Bishop (74:46)

It was more like an info leak that was coming through a couple of sources on the Internet and it involves.

Unknown Host (74:52)

Like hydrogen Isotopes or something and exotic propulsion and some spooky science and that.

Greg Bishop (74:58)

I'm not sure of. All I remember was it was basically was like the last scene in Close Encounters where a bunch of people from the Earth go to another planet and then some of the aliens come here. So the Serpo thing was Planet Serpo sent a bunch of aliens here and we sent a bunch of humans to their star system in an exchange in the 1970s.

Unknown Host (75:18)

Do you think. Do you think any of this is. Have you heard of Cicada 3301?

Greg Bishop (75:22)

No.

Unknown Host (75:23)

It's. Okay. So it's this weird, like, online scavenger hunt puzzle that involved complex mathematics that was presented in 2014. And I'm going to screw up some of the details, but, like, very high level. I think it involved, like, you had to solve it. You needed a serious math, you know, aptitude.

Greg Bishop (75:45)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (75:46)

And a lot of people think that the whole puzzle was set up by the NSA or CIA and it was like a recruitment.

Greg Bishop (75:52)

Right. Yeah.

Unknown Host (75:53)

Do you think some of this stuff that's coming out through Doty or other people is some sort of initiation path? Or do you think it is all passage material to catch bad actors or Rorschach test to test people's belief structures, or what do you think?

Greg Bishop (76:10)

I don't think it's so much that anymore. It's more like when I first saw that article In 2017, the New York Times article, Kane Blumenthal thing.

Unknown Host (76:22)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (76:22)

With Elizondo in it, the first thing I thought was, what new project are they trying to ingrain within the. With the. Trying to. What's it called? Mix with the UFO subject and for what purpose? So I didn't think it was a purpose.

Unknown Host (76:40)

Like, do you have a top candidate for what that project might be? And do you think that the 2017 article was sort of of the same variety as whatever happened to Benowitz?

Greg Bishop (76:52)

No, I don't think it was a Benowitz thing because we live in a different time where information is disseminated in a completely different way than it was then.

Unknown Host (76:59)

But do you. Do you think those. You don't think those three videos that came out.

Greg Bishop (77:04)

I don't think they were faked. I'm pretty sure they weren't faked.

Unknown Host (77:06)

Okay.

Greg Bishop (77:07)

But I think, you know, Rorschach blot again, Swiss army knife again. Get something that everybody's interested in, there's a lot of emotion around it, there's no real idea about what it might be, and then use it for whatever you need to use it. For either to deflect or direct attention. And I think. And this is just me being dumb at the time, and I think still, although in the last few months, it's probably messed up now, I think there was a cold war going on with China, and they're just trying to keep it from going hot. I have a friend that lives near Los Alamos. This friend told me, you want a job? And I said, what? She said, los Alamos is hiring. I said, I don't. I don't have any of those skills. It was a woman. She said, you can. You can. You can write English competently, can't you? It's like, yeah, you edit video. They need those people. I said, why? Why does Los Alamos need those people? She said, there's a huge nuclear arms race going on right now, and they're building bombs like mad. And. And I just thought it sort of coincided with what all this big buildup with the. And I don't know if it's directly related, but I think the UFO subject right now is being used as a. As a fulcrum to figure out what people think, where people's attention can be drawn. I mean, it's just. I see it as this giant, like, social experiment, seeing, you know, how can we use this to our advantage, Right? And on top of that, there's a technology advantage. There's a advantage where you have some technology that might look like that and that can be, you know, attention can be directed towards or away from that. And, you know, I know that sounds vague, but I'm not privy to that information. I mean, you probably had other people on here that probably know a lot more than I do about that. But my suspicion is that it's being used for political gamesmanship, covering up defense tech, black projects, all that stuff.

Unknown Host (79:17)

Well, it's definitely being allowed to be amplified at the very least. And I look at some of the.

Greg Bishop (79:22)

People and I think it's metastasized and. And that it's all over the place now, because somebody probably thought, let's just do this little thing announces, because I guess the time has come and it's become this big thing. The other thing, I think. Yeah, and I'll. I won't interrupt you, but the other thing I think is it is crowdsourcing expertise around the subject. So people with. People with this, with the training and the equipment and the motivation, but were scared to before are going to concentrate on the UFO subject and. And put some expertise to bear on it, which was. Was discouraged in the past. It was it was, you know, now that stigma has been lifted.

Unknown Host (80:02)

I think that's right. Like I think about this.

Greg Bishop (80:04)

So that's a good. That's a good thing that's happened.

Unknown Host (80:06)

Totally good thing. I also think, like one of the things that I got interested in through the UFO subject, but in some ways, you know, is the most out of left field and uncorrelated with kind of consensus Ufology like really came out of left field was the Townsend Brown stuff around. Like, you know, living with schizophrenia isn't.

Greg Bishop (80:27)

Easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still.

Unknown Host (80:32)

Dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there and negative.

Greg Bishop (80:37)

Symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment.

Unknown Host (80:48)

Discover your possibilities@treatingscz.com have any manipulation experiments?

Greg Bishop (80:55)

Oh, yeah. He said that he was really impressed with your, like, digging into that Townsend Brown stuff. You know, Bill Moore intervented interviewed T. Townsend Brown.

Unknown Host (81:02)

I. That's why I want to talk to him, because I know he did. And I made that movie, the Cosmic Conspiracy about.

Greg Bishop (81:07)

I may have his notes from that. I'll look for them for you.

Unknown Host (81:11)

Thank you, man. That means a lot. Yeah, I appreciate that. So. But with the Brown stuff.

Greg Bishop (81:18)

Yeah. People don't know who he is.

Unknown Host (81:19)

Well, I'm also, I'm convinced that, you know, I've. I've signaled to no end that like, if I am doing anything that like, seriously hurts, like American national security or like, you know, get, you know, then like, I, I want to know.

Greg Bishop (81:34)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (81:34)

But nobody, nobody said anything. So it's like, it's just like, you know, sort of empty on the other end. So at that point, somebody, I imagine has made a call on high that like, we're gonna allow some of that stuff to come out too, even though, you know, completely organically looked into it and kind of, I think, corroborated a lot of his stuff.

Greg Bishop (81:55)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (81:56)

And somebody probably made a call that like, you know, I'm not like extremely well versed in like some of the high level theoretical physics around it that at least saying this guy created this topological physics effect. You know, we're probably past the point of like that being. Okay.

Greg Bishop (82:12)

The byfield Brown by field Brown effect.

Unknown Host (82:14)

Yeah. So I. You could be right, that like there are these like, surprising but adjacent things that UFOs give you a framework for.

Greg Bishop (82:24)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (82:24)

That like, you know, maybe whoever in.

Greg Bishop (82:26)

The Navy or whatever was hoping for that.

Unknown Host (82:28)

Yeah, they want, like, energy unlocks and they want more surface area.

Greg Bishop (82:31)

Even if we don't know what UFOs are, it's gonna push Bud Hopkins of all.

Unknown Host (82:35)

You have a whole secret science kind.

Greg Bishop (82:37)

Of initiation, having a recording of him from 1987 or something. I videotaped him for a documentary, and he said, Ufology or UFOs are dragging us kicking and screaming into the science of the 21st century. And it's kind of happening now.

Unknown Host (82:53)

I agree. Well, John Mack would talk about, you know, head of the Harvard psychiatry department, friends with Bud Hopkins.

Greg Bishop (82:59)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (82:59)

You know, who would see all these, you know, abductees. He would talk about how UFOs would inspire tech because it would look like. Like you had the airships of the 1890s or whatever. It would look like tech that was just about to come out. And, you know, Bill Lear is quoted in 1956, you know, he was the father of John Lear and invented the first, you know, Learjet. Yeah, Learjet, first private jet, basically. And he said, you know, I believe anti gravity is possible because UFOs display them. And so I. That to me, is just this really important thing where it's like kind of.

Greg Bishop (83:33)

A chapter on anti gravity and Project Beta, actually.

Unknown Host (83:37)

Yeah, that's right.

Greg Bishop (83:38)

About that memo from the British whatever Society of Gravity Research or something. And it was released some. This copy I saw was stamped Wright Patterson Air Force Base on it. And it missed about like, five pages. Like, there's this big legend about the missing five pages about where it's like, it was achieved in the mid century in. And then it cuts off and then it like.

Unknown Host (84:00)

Well, we know that Wright Airfield was sponsoring the Chapel hill Conference in 1957 at University of North Carolina with the top theoretical physicists in the world. And at the same time, UNC Chapel Hill was sponsoring Townsend Brown's work on anti gravity. We know that Wright Airfield had a dedicated team of people working on anti gravity, which included Lewis Whitten, father of Ed Witten, who was at Martin Corporation's RAs, their anti gravity division. And he says in an interview live that we have tape of where he goes, I was hired to do gravity by Wright Airfield, and that's what I did.

Greg Bishop (84:37)

The reason there was a laboratory at Wright Field was to find out where what we were doing and to help us do it. And I got a contract from Bright Field to do it to do gravity, which I did very happily.

Unknown Host (84:51)

And you have Josh Coldberg, who's a PhD from Syracuse, who's a top Physicist also working on the theoretical underpinnings of anti gravity.

Greg Bishop (84:59)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (85:00)

So we know that this stuff was extremely in vogue in the 50s, and.

Greg Bishop (85:07)

Who knows, it may have been done or partially done. I have a friend that was in the Air Force and he said that when they go, when the stealth fighter lands, people go in and pull panels out of it and put them in briefcases and go away. And he said the rumor was that some of those were anti gravity just to help it fly in a different way. That, you know, not total anti gravity, but to help the avionics. Yep, that's a, that's a rumor.

Unknown Host (85:32)

That is possible. I, I go back and forth on that with like the B2, for example, where I don't see a ton of hard evidence that the.

Greg Bishop (85:39)

Paul, there never is. But maybe that rumor was, was, was given to me just to see who would talk about it.

Unknown Host (85:45)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (85:45)

Where, that's where it come from. It's just one of those things where you pour dye down like 50 pipes and you see where the dye comes out, you know?

Unknown Host (85:51)

Yeah. Well, I track the brown stuff pretty closely and I think his work did make it into the B2. But the part of the aspect of his work that made it into the B2 is electric fields and their ability to manage airflow over an airframe and confer a tactical advantage when it comes to reducing the lift to drag ratio.

Greg Bishop (86:10)

Right. Okay.

Unknown Host (86:11)

So that's all I've ever found on a really first principles level. And then there's a bunch of.

Greg Bishop (86:16)

Yeah, that might be it. That might have been what the guy was talking about.

Unknown Host (86:18)

I think so.

Greg Bishop (86:19)

But maybe it's mixed in with the Brown legend because of that.

Unknown Host (86:22)

Yeah, well, I, I, I, I know that. I'm pretty sure 95% that brown stuff made it into the B2 bomber. In fact, Floyd Odlum, who is the majority owner of Northrop, who funded Brown's work in the 60s, paid brown 4,000 bucks or I don't remember, 2,000 bucks. 4,000 bucks a month. His family, the same amount until, until he died. Yeah, until the 80s.

Greg Bishop (86:46)

Yeah. So I knew that Catalina or whatever.

Unknown Host (86:48)

Yeah, exactly. Good, Good memory. Yeah. So I don't know. It's fascinating. Yeah. UFOs really are. You've, you've made this analogy to me on the phone before. It's like if you have a bunch of pipes and the pipes represent, you know, possible leaks in intelligence, you pour some dye in the pipes and you see where the dye goes.

Greg Bishop (87:08)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (87:08)

And UFOs, I think, are used as a tactic for that, where it's like, you sprinkle in a UFO here that's, you know, or a rumor about a.

Greg Bishop (87:16)

UFO or some case or whatever. And you see, it's like, don't talk about this. Then you see who talks about it.

Unknown Host (87:20)

You see who tries. Yeah, exactly. And then you see who's trustworthy.

Greg Bishop (87:23)

Funny. A long time ago, while I was working on this book, and before that, from knowing Bill, if somebody tells you, don't talk about this, I always think it's a test.

Unknown Host (87:31)

Me, too. I always think. And that's happened to me before. It's happened to me on a thing that was later debunked publicly.

Greg Bishop (87:40)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (87:40)

And I was like, I know what you're doing.

Greg Bishop (87:42)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (87:43)

I know you're telling me this because.

Greg Bishop (87:45)

I want to see if I'm going to leak it. Stuff about the Tic Tac incident and pilots whose names hadn't been released yet. I was told, don't talk about.

Unknown Host (87:52)

You were. You were.

Greg Bishop (87:53)

Yeah. And then, like, six months later, bam. Their names are out there.

Unknown Host (87:57)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (87:57)

And I think whoever told me.

Unknown Host (87:59)

So in your case, it was true.

Greg Bishop (88:00)

Yeah, it was true.

Unknown Host (88:01)

So. So you were given, like, David Fravor's name before the Tic Tac incident or.

Greg Bishop (88:04)

Something, before Alex Diedrich and a couple others.

Unknown Host (88:07)

Whoa. That's crazy.

Greg Bishop (88:09)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (88:09)

Interesting.

Greg Bishop (88:10)

And I talked to Alex Diedrich later, but I didn't tell her that.

Unknown Host (88:12)

Can you say who gave you that information? Pass the test to whoever did that. That's wild. Crazy. Interesting.

Greg Bishop (88:21)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (88:22)

Whoa.

Greg Bishop (88:23)

And it doesn't mean I'm hooked into any, like, great network or anything, but that's, you know. And it used to be a lot. This would happen now about once or twice a year, somebody will tell me.

Unknown Host (88:32)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (88:32)

Lynn Buchanan, who I've known for a long time, the army remote viewer.

Unknown Host (88:35)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (88:36)

He told me, like, eight or nine years ago that he had met with an alien. He said, but don't talk about this to anybody. He's like, why'd you meet with the alien? He said, well, they wanted to see if I could communicate with it because I was one of the remote viewers. He said, but don't mention. I said, all right.

Unknown Host (88:50)

He said.

Greg Bishop (88:50)

Then, like five years later, he said it online somewhere. So I can say it now.

Unknown Host (88:55)

Whoa. Really?

Greg Bishop (88:57)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (88:57)

Is he. So he's still on record claiming that he's met an alien?

Greg Bishop (89:01)

Yeah, The.

Unknown Host (89:02)

The remote.

Greg Bishop (89:03)

At least I hope it came out, because I saw it later. He had mentioned it in somebody's interview or on a podcast or something.

Unknown Host (89:08)

Where did he meet the alien?

Greg Bishop (89:10)

I Don't know. He didn't tell me. It was probably on a base somewhere. At least he wanted me to think that.

Unknown Host (89:14)

Wow.

Greg Bishop (89:14)

I don't know Lynn really well, but he's. I interviewed him in, like, 97 or something, so I've kind of. He's. We've been meeting every once in a while since then, and every once in a while, he'll. He'll. That's the only thing he ever told me. Don't say it. Don't mention it. And I said, why'd you tell me? He said, it's for your information.

Unknown Host (89:32)

Wow.

Greg Bishop (89:32)

But there's so many little bits and pieces of information like that that just float around, and I think a lot of them are just kind of like throwaways of something that used to be important.

Unknown Host (89:43)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (89:43)

But it isn't anymore. But then they become this lore in the UFO community, and then they just stick and they grow. And, you know, it's. It's just. It's, you know, fertile ground for any weird rumor like this to grow.

Unknown Host (89:55)

Do you suspect, like, Diana Pasulka came out with a quote where she. She was friends with Chris Bledsoe who had all these UFO interactions? I. By the way, I'm not in any of the drama. I love Diana Pasulka and I love Chris Bledsoe.

Greg Bishop (90:10)

I think they're both. I'm the same way.

Unknown Host (90:11)

So. But Diana Pasoka came out and she said, I think Chris Bledsoe is a modern Paul Benowitz. Chris Bledsoe claimed to, you know, have an interaction with this goddess Hathor and see also an alien craft.

Greg Bishop (90:24)

And a bunch of government people are very interested in him, which is. That's right. Pretty demonstrably true.

Unknown Host (90:29)

No, that is demonstrably true.

Greg Bishop (90:30)

You know, he'll say, like, so kind of the same dynamic. I guess.

Unknown Host (90:35)

So do you think it is the same dynamic? Do you think they're just genuine friends or, like, what do you think?

Greg Bishop (90:39)

I think whoever is interested in the subject thinks he may be a key to the answer or part of it. And when that happens, then they just become friendly until I've had this happen. And you probably have, too. Somebody comes from the government, tells you something that nobody else knows, or very few people know, and then they say, you know, I'm telling you this first, not Lynn didn't do this because we'd known each other for years. But it. Just because they want you. They want to flatter your ego and get your confidence and find things out.

Unknown Host (91:12)

Yep.

Greg Bishop (91:12)

And I'm not saying that, you know, Sam Evan or whoever. The people that are talking to him are like, you know, we're gonna get all of his information and throw him down, you know, throw him, throw him out with the trash. No, I think they're genuinely interested.

Unknown Host (91:24)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (91:25)

And they genuinely think something, some useful information can come from him. And if they're friendly with him, they can get some of this information could be useful either both for their own personal quest and, and knowledge and also for whoever they might be working with or for.

Unknown Host (91:41)

Totally. I don't think, you know, not to.

Greg Bishop (91:44)

Say that any of those people, all those people are wonderful and moral, but.

Unknown Host (91:47)

Yeah, but I don't think, I don't think you can immediately jump to the conclusion that they are modern Rick Doties either. I think, no, no, no.

Greg Bishop (91:54)

It's a different dynamic.

Unknown Host (91:55)

You can be in the government and earnestly want disclosure. And usually if you're in the government, there are caveats to your earnest desire for, for disclosure that involve national security. But I, I, yeah, I don't think.

Greg Bishop (92:05)

I don't paint them with all of them with this evil brush.

Unknown Host (92:08)

I don't think.

Greg Bishop (92:08)

It's not how the world works.

Unknown Host (92:10)

I don't think you can, a priori, impugn anybody's motives unless they prove to be really, you know, bad actors.

Greg Bishop (92:17)

Yeah. And if they do and they're working in intelligence, they're not always bad actors. It's always something or other. And that's why I, you know, I think, you know, for my, they said, what do you think of Richard Doty? It's like, I don't hate him.

Unknown Host (92:31)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (92:31)

I don't think he's evil. I just think he was doing his job and he likes messing with people and that's it. Also, and what he did, some of the things he did were morally wrong and he knows it.

Unknown Host (92:41)

Also, if we have, you know, take at face value that we had a remote viewing program for 23 years, at the very least, we probably have covert remote viewing programs now and take it face value that some of that remote viewing was effective. You have a guy in North Carolina who is claiming these, like, remarkable stories around kind of a miracle healing that he's experienced and, you know, messages that he's getting involving prophecies. If you take the first thing as a real intelligence modality that obviously needs to be corroborated by other intelligence modalities. You're going to take seriously this dude in North Carolina.

Greg Bishop (93:18)

Yeah.

Unknown Host (93:19)

And you're going to be probably very interested in that.

Greg Bishop (93:22)

You've got antenna up and you're correlating all kinds of different information, most of which might be bs, sure. But the stuff that isn't is worth all the others combing through this stuff.

Unknown Host (93:32)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The thing I've found, too, I don't know if you found this, but sometimes people inside the government are more conspiratorial than people on the outside. Like, you assume that because they've seen it. That's right.

Greg Bishop (93:43)

They see it all the time.

Unknown Host (93:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (93:46)

Once you're in this for anything where you get a little glimpse into how some famous person or some, you know, somebody, that's. That not too many people know, or a government operative, when you see what's going on with them, just get a little glimpse of it. You realize how much what we all see and in the news and all that has already been decided, like, months or years before. And it's not like, you know, it's not some conspiracy. It's just the way the world works. Yeah. You're not for. You and I are only privy to a certain amount of information, and other people are privy to less and other people are more. Way more. And there's. And, you know, it's kind of our, you know, you and I are interested in, like, what are those people above us doing? What is coming down the road? How is that going to affect us? What does the past look like because of that? What does the future look like because of that? Who does it affect? You know, should I be emotional about this? Is there a moral issue with this? I want to know all these things. And so I've got antenna up just like these weirdo government people. And I've learned things from them, too. You know, just how to operate and how to think. And part of that, like you said, is being a little bit paranoid, but only a little bit, because I've been a lot paranoid for about a year, and I didn't like it.

Unknown Host (94:57)

That's a lot paranoids never get. I made this documentary with David Grush in September of 2023 after he testified before Congress. He said that he, you know, gave over, like, I think, like hundreds of pages, maybe over a thousand pages to the, you know, intelligence community Inspector general, you know, experienced reprisals based on his blowing the whistle. And he brought forward 40 people directly to the ICIG who had, you know, worked on this stuff firsthand. And we're still in this sort of liminal space, even though he did all that, which is kind of crazy, I.

Greg Bishop (95:31)

Just wanted to put enough out there, touch on all the most sensitive parts, like the Biologic side and like things that really need to come out.

Unknown Host (95:38)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (95:39)

But I don't want to overly disclose because it's not my job. I don't know him well. I don't even know if I know the details about, remember the details about what he was saying except to, you know, shore up that the government is interested in the subject. Has been for a long time and a lot deeper than we think.

Unknown Host (95:57)

Well, his, the substance of what he said is that we have non human bodies, pilots, craft. We have, you know, craft in our possession that we.

Greg Bishop (96:06)

Okay, yeah, now I'm remembering. Yeah.

Unknown Host (96:07)

Crashes on record. He talks about the Magenta Crash, 1933. He even kind of talks about, you know, possible agreements, I believe in the Ross Colthard interview. And then he says he has all these firsthand witnesses. And again, like, I know him to have a very eidetic sort of memory and to be a very, you know, intense kind of, you know, he has mild autism, you know, researcher. So yeah, he does, you know, definitely not fit the pattern of some of these other really slick and smooth savvy guys. So it's interesting.

Greg Bishop (96:43)

Yeah. But, well, the, the mistake I think people make with Grush and other people is that they want to know if they're telling the truth or not. Like, that's not the question. I think the question is, is what they're saying relevant and can connections be made with what they say to other things that things have been said? And also documentation, if you can get it. It's just kind of this. It's a. I keep using the word concatenation, but it's a concatenation of all this stuff together. And when somebody says, well, I think that person's lying, it's like, why? Because he said this. It's like he said like 500 things.

Unknown Host (97:23)

Yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (97:24)

So you're saying everything he said is a lie based on this one thing you think is a lie or if you proven as a lie or as wrong or inaccurate. That's not how the world works. No, it's especially not how the UFO world works.

Unknown Host (97:34)

Yeah, I think it's tough being in that whistleblower position because the more you say the more surface area exists on, you know what. Yeah. The more everything.

Greg Bishop (97:47)

There's more ways for people to get their hooks in and pull you apart. Yeah. And, and it's going to happen.

Unknown Host (97:52)

It's not like you're commenting on. You're not like a sports commentator on espn. People are like, this is the truth. And if you say one wrong thing.

Greg Bishop (98:00)

Yeah, well, that's different because I always had that analogy people look at that analogy people made. If this was brought into a court of law, then, you know, it'd be proven. It's like, no, it wouldn't. Because we know about murders and robberies and stuff. This is dealing with something we can't bring in a lab and prove and not many people had experience with. So it's a whole different thing. And it's throwing all these different definitions we have. And, you know, I hate the word ontology, but throwing everybody's ontology into question. Yeah, it's like, how much of this are you going to let into your life? How much of this is relevant to you? You know, is it just like, you know, is it just like talking about movies and TV shows or something? Or does this mean more? I think it means way more. But I also don't know how much of this stuff is going to. Much more of it is going to come out because I think that every time the government says, hey, let's look at UFOs for a while, when the usefulness of looking at it and having it in the public is gone, bam, it's gone. And then suddenly everybody's like, well, you were just going to tell us what it was. And this has been the longest and the strongest I've ever seen it go on. And so I don't know what the end game is, but I have a really strong feeling that as soon as what, whoever gets what they need to get or it's not useful anymore, that faucet is going to be turned off. I hope I'm wrong.

Unknown Host (99:14)

Yeah.

Greg Bishop (99:15)

Because I'd like to see something. Although the disclosure thing still kind of irritates because my one quote about it, and I keep saying it, and I've been saying it for years, disclosures, like asking the parent that always lies to you to tell you this truth, the truth, just this one time, and if they don't tell you what you want to hear, they're lying.

Unknown Host (99:31)

I love that. Well, there are two vectors, though. There's like, is the government ever going to, like, let some of this stuff ultimately out in the way of, like, showing you a craft? And what do they know and what do they actually know? Like, do they actually know anything as far as, like, some metaphysical worldview that it's super concrete as opposed to, you know, maybe not. Maybe it's just.

Greg Bishop (99:51)

I mean, it's ephemeral. It's too, too much to admit it because it's not explainable in terms that people would understand. So what's the point? And it's much more useful the way it is now, which is that. That Swiss army knife that I was talking about.

Unknown Host (100:04)

Yeah, but I do think. So there are two different vectors. There's the government vector. I do think if we just followed up on some of David Grush's, you know, face value claims, that would be like really exciting if we could like corroborate, you know, some of those. And it's crazy that it still exists in this liminal kind of, kind of, kind of space.

Greg Bishop (100:24)

Well, the UFO exists in a liminal space, so it drags everything else along with it.

Unknown Host (100:28)

Right, right, right, right, right.

Greg Bishop (100:29)

I mean, that's the model it's coming from. So it's going to be fighting that the whole time.

Unknown Host (100:34)

Yeah, right, sure.

Greg Bishop (100:37)

Prove this liminality to me. Break, you know, collapse the waveform. I don't know if that's going to happen.

Unknown Host (100:43)

Well, that, yeah, I mean, then you're getting into deeper stuff, which is, so there's a government vector and then there's like a belief consensus reality vector.

Greg Bishop (100:51)

And like most people believe there's aliens and exist and UFOs are real. Most people believe that. Yeah.

Unknown Host (100:57)

No, it's like probably over 50% of America. So if there's some other like version of reality that is egregoric in nature where like you are literally, you know, going to create the manifesting things in your purview, then the amount of momentum that I see now has to turn into something and I don't know what that turns into.

Greg Bishop (101:17)

I don't know either. I like that Whitley Strieber quote where he said the government was keeping it secret because if enough people believed in it, would it allow it in? I think he said that in.

Unknown Host (101:29)

Communion.

Greg Bishop (101:30)

No, it wasn't in Communion. It was in his Majestic. This is semi fictional account of the Roswell crash and everything after it.

Unknown Host (101:41)

Right, right, right.

Greg Bishop (101:42)

Really good. A lot of metaphors in there which are still relevant and I, I still go back to.

Unknown Host (101:47)

I love it. Well, I'll check that out.

Greg Bishop (101:49)

Have you, have you had Whitley on?

Unknown Host (101:50)

I have, yeah, yeah.

Greg Bishop (101:52)

He's always a good, he's always a good interview and people. I was at Contact, I got to get up on. I got to speak at Contact. I wasn't scheduled.

Unknown Host (102:00)

Amazing.

Greg Bishop (102:01)

But I got up on stage because Dean Aliotto showed his film Alien Perspective. And one of the first things I said when I was. They asked me for a statement, I said, you. And I've said this before, you know why I believe people say, do you believe Whitley Strieber. I said, I believe him in the way I believe, you know, the Beatles or the Foo Fighters or Van Gogh or, you know, Jackson Pollock.

Unknown Host (102:23)

He's a great artist.

Greg Bishop (102:24)

He's a great artist. Telling you the truth of how he sees something that has affected.

Unknown Host (102:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the case of, you know, when it comes to a.

Greg Bishop (102:32)

Lot of experiencers and then people say, well, then he just made it up. It's like, no, art doesn't come from nothing. It comes from. It comes from the artist's feelings, it, his or her life experience, everything. And the way Whitley's explaining to us is the way an artist would explain the abduction phenomenon to us. And it's in a way that nobody else talks about it like. Like he does. And I've enjoyed it from the beginning.

Unknown Host (102:54)

Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Greg Bishop, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your work. Everybody go out and buy Project Beta as well as it defies language and. Yeah, thank you, man.

Greg Bishop (103:07)

Thanks a lot.

Unknown Host (103:08)

All right. It.