← American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
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Ugh.
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And your last name, the snake. Dream Team.
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Ends March 24th.
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Why would the government program American citizens to murder other American citizens?
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Well, that's the question.
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So you have documented a project called MK Ultra and other kind of variations of mind control. Creating splits and multiple personalities. Couriers and spies. Manchurian candidates assassinate world leaders.
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They used whoever they could get their hands on. Hypnotizing them. Brain electrode implants. Electric shock creating the suit.
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This stuff is shocking.
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The US army released a list of 120ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing. 1500 people times 120 different drugs. It's a lot of people. Right?
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It's a lot of people.
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When you get into the documents, you find out this guy is connected to this guy. This guy's connected to that guy. It's this whole network.
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Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed lone gunman, probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating jfk. Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald. So he probably was an MKUltra patient before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. He doesn't remember shooting somebody. Sirhan Sirhan to this day says that he has no recollection of having shot rfk.
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What do you remember about the shooting? If you're willing to talk about that, Obviously I was there, but I don't
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remember the exact moment. I don't remember pulling my gun. Then you have a guy like McVay who's an MKUltra patient Manson, who's an MKULTRA patient. These people are committing horrific acts.
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You think that my mind is like
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your mind, but it isn't. This is really creepy. I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein.
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The thing is, it's not just some crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually possible.
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Can I give you my crazy Epstein MK Ultra theory?
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Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.
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Okay,
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Ignition sequence 5.
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How is this possible?
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Nothing too unusual about that.
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Their existence cannot longer be denied. As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs, are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often, their work takes a toll, and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers, and they told me I was fine and sent me home. This massive difference between the ordinary broken and limited healthcare system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in Superpower. The beautiful thing is they make elite level healthcare accessible. They'll literally send a licensed professional to your home or you visit a nearby lab. One simple lab test and you get over 100 biomarkers. Heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin levels, even environmental toxins. After that, their app builds you a full action plan. Supplement suggestions you can buy directly through them. Nutritional guidance, lifestyle adjustments. They even give you your true biological age. And you can track that over time. And it's not just a one time snapshot. Each test builds on the last. So you're actually seeing progress. Instead of starting from zero every year, make this the year you stop guessing about your health and you start getting serious with Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with code ALCHEMY. Head to superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them. So please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. I'm here with Dr. Colin Ross, who blew my mind with just a really kind of bombshell crazy book. It's called CIA Doctors.
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I brought you a copy, actually.
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Thank you. And, well, here's my copy.
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A
Here's your Other copy.
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B
Amazing. Well, thanks. I'd love a second. And I'd love to hand as many of these out as possible to as many people as I can because as
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long as it's over a million, I'm good.
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Okay, perfect. Yeah, just give me an affiliate fee. But truly this stuff is shocking. You have documented the kind of medical malpractice of a whole host of psychiatrists who are either officially or unofficially associated often with CIA and project called MK Ultra and a lot of the derivatives and subcompartments and other kind of variations of that. Mind control largely. And it talks about dissociating personalities, creating splits and multiple personalities so that you can send couriers and spies, create Manchurian candidates, assassinate world leaders. It is mind blowing and it's jarring to say the least.
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Well, and the thing is. So I'll give you a background, personal background, a little bit. So I grew up in Canada, Medical school, psychiatry training, worked in Canada for a while and then moved here. Equals Texas in 91 to A. My specialty is multiple personality equals dissociative identity disorder. And so I was in a program there at a hospital up in Plano and two or three months in, one of the patients who had multiple personalities comes up with this little sheath of papers and all paranoid and scared and hands them to me and I don't want these. And take these and I look at them and I go, hmm, MK Ultra. First I've heard of that. That's how I got into it, by this woman handing me this pile of papers. Otherwise wasn't interested in know about it. I thought the Search for the Manchurian Candidate was some kind of movie or something, but I wasn't really sure.
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Yeah, and it is a movie, It's I think 1961, Frank Sinatra. And it discusses the creation of this assassin, essentially post Korean war, that China, you know, Manchuria, this northeastern part of China.
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And it's based on a book from the 50s.
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There you go.
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So fiction, Hollywood, entertaining, end of story. So what I did was I read a couple of books that existed. There was no published mainstream journal type papers. And then I was down in Northern Virginia for a conference in 92 and I corresponded with the CIA, which was like pre Internet back in the era. And they gave me an address to come to to read the MK Ultra papers. So I'm at the conference hotel. This is just a crazy side story in itself. Walk out, get in a taxi. And it turns out the taxi driver is telling me his story of he was a police officer in Afghanistan before He moved to the United States. Wonder if this is a coincidence that this guy is driving me. And then he goes, would you like to go through the grounds of the Pentagon on the way? Whoa, sure. Okay. And then he says, well, where are you going? What are you doing? Oh, I'm just going to meet with some people. Drops me off at this building that it's very nondescript, you can't tell what it is. And I walk in there and, I mean, this civilian guy has nothing to do with the military. And there's a whole bunch of military guys in uniform. One sign says secure line DIA only. Another one is Secure line CIA only. I walk up to the desk, hi, I'm here to read some documents. And the guy gives me a look like, oh, here's one of these guys here, sign in. And the woman comes down after 10 minutes, maybe get in the little jammed elevator with a bunch of guys in uniform and a bunch of guys who. I don't know who they are. Go up to fifth floor, seventh floor, whatever it was, get off, walk down the corridor, and there's like a submarine door. She has a key code in, then another door, and then we're in a small office and sign a piece of paper, walk over here through another one of those doors into a room where there's a cart with all the 149 MKUltra projects there. And 15,000 pages of documents. Had to read them all, which took a while.
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Thank God you did all this because it's a really comprehensive book and it clearly touches kind of close to the metal as far as what actually transpired and what went on. And if you really want to kind of understand what these psychiatrists were doing, how they were communicating with CIA, this book is great. So just real quick for the audience, you gave a little context as to how you got into this topic. What's your day job?
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Psychiatrist.
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Okay. And you have no affiliation with MK Ultra, I assume? Okay.
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Of course, people go, oh, yeah, that's what he says. I'm just a civilian guy, okay? So I know lots about all these documented facts, and I have this pile of documents, but I don't have any insider knowledge about stuff currently at all, which is kind of disappointing in a way.
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Yeah. Well, the trail goes dark in 1975 with the church Commission, where all this malfeasance in the CIA, not just mind control stuff, was investigated. And there was this kind of large reform. Let's go back to the very beginning of cowboy intelligence interventionism in the human body. So I want to Talk about, you
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know, we're talking China, 3000 BC.
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No, no. In at least in the American context. So let's talk about the Tuskegee Experiment, because that for people who are. In their minds, they're like, how could the government ever do something like this? It's just seems so horrific and beyond what they would ever do. I think this is a really good jumping off point.
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That's why there's a chapter in the book about Tuskegee. So one of the skeptical things is you could never do all that stuff and keep it secret, and if it was known, it would get shut down. So Tuskegee, which is a town in the Southern United States, 1932, the Public Health Service was the organizing entity. The Surgeon General signed off on it. All these top medical people were aware. And I've got a. One of the papers I copied is called Side Effects of Syphilis in the Male Negro is the title of the paper.
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So give people context on just high level what happened, because it's so shocking.
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They recruited 400 black, rural, mostly illiterate guys who had syphilis and then prevented them from getting treatment all the way till it was shut down in 1972 because a reporter blew a whistle on it. So it was studying the effects of untreated syphilis. And the astounding medical discovery was people would get sick and die earlier.
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Yeah, shocker.
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That's all they learned.
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Shocker. Pretty crazy. So you have that obviously occurring. You have early radiation experiments. How does radiation interact with the physical body?
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It's all documented, 100%. There's all kinds of on the edge things I've heard, I suspect, but right now we're just 100% documented. So Clinton had a report in the late 90s on radiation experiments. Pretty thick, couple inches thick. And in there, it describes a whole bunch of stuff, including, I think it was 7 HP. 7 was his name, which means human product 7. This is guys that they did radiation experiments on. So. And this is in one of the Harvard hospitals in Boston. He comes into the ER unconscious, in a coma. They inject him with plutonium and he. He dies without ever waking up. Not from the plutonium, just whatever happened with him. So they're just. How does it go through his kidneys? How is it excreted? They're studying that.
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Jesus Christ.
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So if the guy arrived in a coma, I'm guessing he didn't give informed consent. Right?
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Okay, so let's get to MK Ultra or just mind control generally. When did the idea of mind control cross the minds of American leadership.
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What's documented is in the Second World War the. Because people have been manipulating and controlling people forever, right? So just making it government organized, sophisticated, scientific doctors involved, that's at least in the Second World War. So 1941 or two, all these intelligence agencies which are kind of scattered all over the place in the US were brought under the umbrella of the Office of Strategic Services, which is the oss. And then the OSS was disbanded at the end of the war. And then in 1947 the CIA was created and a lot of the OSS guys just moved over there. So there's a guy named GH Estabrooks who's a chapter in the book Colgate College, upstate New York. He published a book in 1943 on hypnotism. In a paper in 1971 or two in a magazine describing creating the super spy. And I have copies of his contract with the War department back in 43 or so. Him corresponding with MK Ultra, top secret cleared contractors, inviting them to Colgate College, corresponding with them, co publishing with some of them, giving talks on the super spy at US army conferences, inviting the number two or three guy and the FBI to Colgate College to a conference and corresponding back and forth to J. Edgar Hoover from 30s to 60s, I think it was. This is all totally documented. So he doesn't describe his methods very much, but he says he gets a susceptible guy. This is all in the published material. Puts him through some sort of conditioning which he doesn't really describe in any detail. And then he describes, which is also in the Umkhe Ultra documents. He describes a hypnotic code word that's implanted which was the moon is clear. So he brings this army guy in or he assigns it to the Colonel. The colonel brings in this army guy, gives him an assignment to take some courier materials over to Tokyo and then says the moon is clear. Out comes the artificially created identity created by Esterbrooks. Gives him whatever the information is, sends the guy over to Tokyo. The officer on the far end says, oh, thanks for the documents. The moon is clear, the secret message is transmitted, the response is implanted, switch back to the regular guy, he goes back home. This is explicit, clear detail. This is described. And then in the CI created in 47, Bluebird and Artichoke were the precursors of MK Ulster. It was started in 1950. And in those documents it describes experiments where they use secretaries and whoever they could get their hands on hypnotizing them, getting them to do tasks and assignments and then Having amnesia for that. This is all described in great detail.
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So the idea is if you could compartmentalize a person from an aspect of themselves, you can get that compartmentalized aspect to do whatever you want. And you can create a trigger to move somebody from their normal generic personality into this kind of, you know, secret courier person.
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And in the documents it describes words, verbal, trigger, touch. In the Manchurian Kennedy book and movie, it's a playing card. So it can be anything that becomes a trigger.
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Yeah. Okay, so you have Bluebird, you have Artichoke.
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Then we got Mkeltra, which then runs into the early 60s. That's rolled over to MK Search, which runs into the early 70s.
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What is MK?
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There's speculation about that, but I don't know for sure. Some people think it's mind control, but.
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Y M K. Y K. So you
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could sound scary in German.
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Oh, control. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, that's weird. And what were some of the earliest experiments that even like tipped US intel officials off that this was even possible?
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In the documents that I have that G.H. esterbrooks, you know, pitched his expertise to the CIA early in the 50s.
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Yeah. I read this book called the Controllers by Martin Cannon, and he talks about Estabrooks bragging about this sort of thing. So, okay, fascinating.
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He clearly liked to brag.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who in the American government and intel community kind of championed this idea at the time, kind of post World War II, that we should be experimenting with this.
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The director of the CIA signed Bluebird into operation in April 1952, three months before the Korean War started in June. And then the disinformation cover story was, oh, we were just reacting to what the Communist Chinese were doing, but it was already in place, offensive and defensive, before the Korean War started. So the directors of the CIA were all, you know, knew what was going on. The top guy was Sidney Gottlieb for MK Ultra, who's an interesting character in and of itself. And so he was kind of the organizer, main character. I forget the year 50 something. There's a guy in Fort Detrick in the Chemical Warfare Division named Frank Olson. And he was starting to have a little problem with his conscience and was kind of maybe going to become a whistleblower. So Sidney Gottlieb invited him to a party somewhere outside the Washington D.C. area and he was given a dose of LSD in Cointreau liqueur. And then he had sort of a bad trip. But that in itself is a cover story because the story was as a result of the being Mentally ill. They didn't mention the lsd. He jumped out of a hotel window, the Statler Hotel, the 10th floor, and died. But actually, Harold Abramson, who's involved in MKUltra, who's a doctor, was involved in the story. And there's a guy named Pierre Lafitte who had literally, like 20 aliases, which are all listed in a book. The last name of one of his aliases was Heidel. Alex Heidel was Lee Harvey Oswald's alias. What? And Lee Harvey Oswald and Pierre Lafitte both worked at the Riley Coffee Company in the same period 60 to 63. So this is all some secret web of something.
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So you think Lee Harvey Oswald could have been an MK Ultra patient?
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Very well. Easily could have been.
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B
Whoa, wait. So just.
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I don't know that he was, but he very easily could have been.
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So let's back up. So Frank Olson is working on biological warfare at Fort Detrick as part of mk.
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Naomi, he's pushed out of the hotel.
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Pushed out of the hotel window. Pierre Lafitte by Pierre Lafitte. I believe Frank Olsen's son is named Eric Olson, and he investigated this and realized the window was actually too small for him to. He couldn't have jumped out of this thing. He must have been pushed.
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The family just bought the story, but then they read one paragraph in Rockefeller Commission Report 73, or somewhere in there describing exactly what happened to their dad, saying that he was dosed with lsd. So that's how they got on it. Got lawyers. And there's a photograph of the family in the Oval Office of the White House with the President giving them the $700,000 compensation check.
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Jesus Christ.
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So it was all blown wide open.
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Yeah. And Sidney Gottlieb, on record, you know, there's a great biography of him called Poisoner in Chief.
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Right?
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And he's known as kind of almost the US version of Joseph Mengele and like, just kind of cowboy border science, like, you know, human subjects testing. He was head of the technical staff services for the CIA.
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Technical Services Division.
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Technical Services Division. Sorry, tsd. What was there was also tss, though, I believe. But anyways, yeah, I think that it
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was the same thing with a different neighbor.
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B
Okay. Okay. So. Okay. But I want to. I don't want to let up on this Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed lone gunman, who now everybody kind of knows, probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK in November of 1963.
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I. I have a document that's Part of the Bluebird Artichoke Papers, I think. But one of those. There's multiple programs project often mk Naomi, there's like five or six of them all parallel. The document is one intelligence officer writing to another intelligence officer that after 63 or no, before 63, that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother has gotten in contact with the guy because Lee Harvey Oswald's mother is concerned that somebody's been impersonating him in Europe. There's a bunch of suspicious stuff going on. And then the other main suspicious thing about the story is, okay, so Marine guy defects to Russia and then we just let him back in and don't put him under surveillance or end the story. Nothing to see here.
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B
Well, then he goes and works at 544 Camp street in New Orleans. And the guy who owns that building is an FBI investigator named Guy Bannister. So that's strange. And I believe he was implicated in he Lee RV Oswald like had the gun of. He almost assassinated somebody six months earlier or something.
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Right. But Walker, he was such a lousy shot that he didn't kill the guy.
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Yeah.
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And the gun, he's a military guy. Yeah, Walker.
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Yeah, Walker, right. Yeah. There's so much off about that whole story. And then he gets a job at the Texas Book Depository. And the woman who owns that or the woman who he's like living with is Ruth Payne and she's very close with Mary Bancroft, who's Alan Dulles Mistress Allen Dulles is the director of the CIA. So there's so many.
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Ruth Payne is very tied in.
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And then the guy who owns the Texas Bird Depository is a guy named Harold Byrd.
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I don't know that.
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Oh, yeah, and he was a, I think related to Richard Byrd, who did Operation High Jump, who's headed towards Antarctica and might have ran into flying saucers. Sort of weird lore around that. But Harold Byrd won some award for the Civil Air corps from Curtis LeMay. And I believe the Byrd family was close with LBJ as well. And there reasons to believe that LBJ might have had something to do with the assassination of jfk. Obviously he was a ruthlessly political guy.
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A
So that's the sort of politics, conspiracy side of things. It's the same thing when you get into the documents, you find out in documented documents, this guy is connected to this guy, this guy's connected to that guy. It's this whole network. It's not just two guys in an office running the show.
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B
What are the let's set the landscape as far as what are the modalities they are testing. So clearly hypnotism is one of them. Is there electroshocking?
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A
There's all kinds of stuff. Brain electrode implants, electric shock, whole bunch of different drugs. Classical sensory deprivation, isolation. Basically they just kind of like threw everything at the wall to see what would stick. Yeah, it's very. I was going to say helter skelter. It's probably not a good choice of term for this, but. So in 75 or 6 at committee hearings, the general counsel for the US army released a list of 120ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing by the army. And they admitted to 1,500 LSD subjects. And there's videos of those online still. And sometimes it seems like they're admitting to 4000. But if we do 1500 people times 120 different drugs, it's a lot of people, Right?
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B
It's a lot of people. That's pretty egregious. What did they discover worked of all of those modalities, Were there things that worked better than others? Were there different use cases for the different modalities?
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A
So on Manchurian Candidate they just poo pooed that? Totally. Yeah. It's not possible to. Can't do that. We never used those people.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Which is just straight up lie.
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B
It's just a straight up lie. And we'll get into some examples that kind of prove that that's a straight up lie. Well, why don't we just get into that? So what, what, what, What's a good example of somebody becoming a Manchurian Candidate? Well, and Manchurian Candidate is a compartmentalized trained assassin that you could trigger somebody to become an assassin.
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A
Why are they called Manchurian Candidates? So there's another document in the files there where CIA officer writing to another CIA officer says he's concerned about reports this Korean War stuff that a group of GIs going through a zone in Manchuria were captured and hypnosis was used on them. That's the plot of the Manchurian Candidate in CIA documents before the book was written or published. It's not just pulled out of nowhere. My take on all this in terms of the politics and the ethics is the CIA military would be negligent and guilty of dereliction of duty if they didn't look into this, didn't have expertise because obviously these kind of people were being run at us by terrorists, foreign intelligence agencies.
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B
So give me some of the early psychiatrists that were kind of pioneering these
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A
methods so again, this is all documents for sure. Within MK Ultra, which is the same in other programs, there's kind of three categories of projects. There's 149 of them total. A third of them are just straightforward sort of chemical procurement industrial contracts. A third of them, the investigator, who's some professor somewhere is unwitting, means he doesn't know it's CIA money because it's funneled through a front organization which they called a cutout. And then a third of them roughly are cleared at top secret, they know it's CIA money. So two top secret cleared guys were Martin Orne and Jolly West. So Martin Orne being. And it says in the documents the purpose of the project. It says the amount of money and so on the year. The purpose was studying hypnotic and dissociative states. So for sure they were working on that. And Martin Orne was aware of jh, Esther Brooks and back and forth. So Jolly west is famous for several different things. One is killing an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with a dose of lsd. He also was sort of involved in the UCLA Violence Project, which was when Reagan was the governor. The idea there was to implant electrodes in prisoners brains and then when they're released, sex offenders track them and if they go outside the allowed perimeter, send them a signal and paralyze them temporarily. And that was shut down before it got started. But Louis Jolyon west was involved in that. He interviewed Timothy McVeigh.
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B
Really?
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Oklahoma City bomber. So here's Oklahoma City bomber. Louis Jollion west is over in la. There's lots of psychiatrists everywhere. By random chance they had Louis Jolyen west come and Invest, interview Timothy McVeigh.
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B
Why do you think he interviewed the Oklahoma city bomber Timothy McVeigh? Legend has it that in 1943 the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid century anti gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like? Your team before you had QUO this year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions. If you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six platforms, you know the absolute horror of losing people to the Ethereum. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. The smarter way to run your business communications. It's a single streamlined command center for calls, notes, transcripts, chats, even AI summaries. An all in one shared reality. Yours no vanishing, no fusing into calendars. Just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones, timelines, even caffeine levels. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com Jesse that's Q U O.com Jesse Quo no missed calls, no missed customers. Now back to the show.
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A
McVeigh. This is all public domain. McVay said when they took him to Tinker Air Force Base, they removed a computer chip from his buttock.
- [33:35]
B
What? The world moves fast.
- [33:39]
A
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- [34:14]
B
Did he have any criminal background? Where do you think he was implanted with this thing? Was he at ucla? Because Jolly west was obviously head of psychiatry at ucla. Was he. Was there any connections between him and Jolly before the bombing?
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A
Not that I know of, but they removed it. Wouldn't have to be him. I mean it could be. There's lots of people in the military, right?
- [34:34]
B
They removed a computer chip from his butt. It's fucking weird.
- [34:39]
A
Which means they know exactly where he was every minute of every day up to the time of the bombing.
- [34:44]
B
So the. And then you hear things like Charles Manson responsible for the most famous murders, the Tate LaBianca murders. Sharon Tate, famous actress at the apex of her career, murdered in cold blood while pregnant with Roman Polanski's I don't know, son or daughter. And we now know from Tom o' Neill's amazing book Chaos, that very amazing book. Amazing book and just hard headed journalism over decades. He started as like this beat reporter looking into it was like the anniversary of the Manson murders. He was just gonna do an article and then he met Vincent Bugliosi. Who? The lead prosecutor on the case who wrote the book Helter Skelter and realized, oh my God, this narrative is entirely off.
- [35:31]
A
It's all cover story.
- [35:31]
B
It's all a cover story. And realized that Manson in 1967 was going in consistently to the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic in San Francisco.
- [35:41]
A
Oh, you mean the one that Louis Jolly and West was at.
- [35:43]
B
Exactly. And Jolly west had an office there.
- [35:46]
A
Yeah, he did.
- [35:47]
B
And then you have this like transformation of this guy from this petty criminal who's being caught and released to this like sex God, cult leader, musician, you know, in la, who's like living with one of the Beach Boys. And like, it's just this like, you know, day and night sort of thing. So I guess the meta question here is if you have a guy like manson who's an MK Ultra patient, and then you have a guy like McVeigh who's an MK Ultra patient, these people are committing horrific acts. Why would the government, like the CIA, like a guy who had top secret clearance for the CIA, Jolly west or any of these people program American citizens to murder other American citizens?
- [36:37]
A
Well, that's the question. So probably because their ethics are a little off, number one. Yeah, but we don't know. It could be that Jolly west was just sort of a secondary character in the show because he's not going to be the only Manchurian Candidate creator on the planet.
- [36:55]
B
Can you create a chain of Manchurian candidates? So this is really creepy, but say, what if the psychiatrist themselves is a Manchurian Candidate and they are doing treatments that they're not even aware of to their patient?
- [37:11]
A
I'd advise not going to that psychiatrist.
- [37:13]
B
I know, but how, how does anybody know? I mean, you, you document all these people who are cutouts and not even like, you know, connected explicitly, and then what if they're themselves compartmentalized?
- [37:25]
A
So as I always say, we know the tiny tip of the iceberg, the stuff, the whole iceberg is just who knows what's going on down there? It's exactly like the Epstein story, right?
- [37:38]
B
Yeah.
- [37:38]
A
So we know he exists. We know he's a trafficker. We know he supposedly killed himself. He either killed himself or was murdered in jail. Who else been prosecuted? Him and his girlfriend. That's it in the United States.
- [37:54]
B
Just.
- [37:54]
A
Just his girlfriend who's gotten the heat
- [37:58]
B
now. Now, Prince Andrew.
- [38:00]
A
Yeah, but some expendable foreign guy.
- [38:02]
B
Yeah, none of the people who actually committed the crimes and then all of the people in the documents all happened to not go to the. Not commit any crimes, you know, and most of them say, we didn't go to the island it's preposterous. It's absolutely preposterous. Okay, I have a crazy question about him. Do you think he, do you think he was an MK Ultra patient?
- [38:23]
A
I have no idea. But the thing is, it's not just like some crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually realistically possible that any and a whole bunch of these guys were.
- [38:34]
B
Can I, can I give you my crazy Epstein MK Ultra theory?
- [38:38]
A
Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.
- [38:41]
B
Okay, so Manson, if you look at who he modeled his life off of, it was Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein, this like 1968 or nine bestseller sci fi book. I believe he calls his son Don Michael Valentine, who was like the lead character in the book. And he even calls his parole officer a guy named Roger Smith. I believe he calls him Jubal. Jubal Harshaw was this protector character in this book.
- [39:13]
A
Manson sent you an email. I don't know if you saw it.
- [39:16]
B
Oh, I don't, you know, I don't
- [39:17]
A
think I did the TV show FBI.
- [39:20]
B
Oh, you did?
- [39:20]
A
Yeah.
- [39:21]
B
What was this again?
- [39:22]
A
So that it's a fiction about FBI and they're always getting the bad guys and there's the woman who's sort of like the head, but the actual operational guy who's always, you know, checking stuff and looking on the screen and assigning people to go here and there. His name is Jubal Valentine.
- [39:39]
B
Well, there you go. A mashup of two names in Stranger of a Strange Land.
- [39:44]
A
It's not random.
- [39:45]
B
That's not random, clearly.
- [39:47]
A
So whether it's just some screenwriter with a sense of humor who read that kind of stuff or.
- [39:51]
B
Well, this is where it gets really creepy. I'm like, do you think that LSD was given to Manson or he was dosed up, made to be extremely impressionable? We know that on record at, at the time there was a program called Operation Midnight Climax where actually it's a
- [40:09]
A
sub project within MK ultra. Operation Midnight Climax is sort of an informal name for it, but it existed.
- [40:16]
B
So it existed. And they were dosing up hippies off the street in Haight Ashbury, putting them behind a, you know, a one way mirror and then viewing them, you know, with prostitutes and stuff, how they'd behave.
- [40:29]
A
And so here's a wrinkle on that story. So that was mostly in San Francisco, a little bit in New York. Um, the guy who was sort of running that was a former, whatever the DEA was called before. Can't remember the name of it before it was called the dea. So he was involved in various things that had to do with intelligence. So he was running it. And he's quoted as saying his name was George White. Something along the lines of, where else could a good American boy rape, murder, and kill with impunity?
- [41:05]
B
Jesus Christ.
- [41:07]
A
That's what he said in public.
- [41:08]
B
That was the head of the equivalent of the DEA at the time, the Drug Enforcement Agency.
- [41:13]
A
He was the head of Operation Midnight Climax.
- [41:15]
B
I know, but then he became the head of the dea.
- [41:18]
A
It's not a low level. So none of these guys the same with the psychiatrist? They're not just some, you know, off the grid person in a basement somewhere. These are top psychiatrists, top government people, Top secret, cleared.
- [41:32]
B
So creepy. Okay, so here's my question, okay? If they're doing stuff like that,
- [41:42]
A
what
- [41:42]
B
I think is if you have a guy who's illiterate, who's modeling his life off the book, he can't read the book, but the book becomes the template for his life. Stranger in a Strange Land, Charles Manson. He was probably read the book while dosed up on LSD or ketamine or something. Could be, I don't know, speculating. But if that's the case, I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein. Because Epstein started at Dalton School, which was, you know, prep school in New York, for no apparent reason, wasn't qualified to work there.
- [42:14]
A
He jumped from nowhere to 300 million in a blink.
- [42:16]
B
Yeah, well, that. So that was Dalton and then Bear Stern and all the other stuff. But even Dalton, you know, I think he was engaging in underage, you know, relations with his students at the time, was unqualified for that job, Was like this street kid and gets the job there, I believe. The guy who gives him the job is a guy named Donald Barr. And Donald Barr was a former highly cleared Navy guy, and he wrote a book called Space Relations. And it's all about using underage sex as compromise. But it's about this, like, you know, this guy that is, you know, going to another planet and then ends up being groomed by this other woman. And, and the. The woman almost could be like, Elaine or like, you know, like one of his handlers or something. So you have another case where it's like his life seemed to be modeled off the book, right? And so I wonder if there was some sort of, like, weird screening of, you know, or, you know, he was made to be very impressionable and then he was, you know, this. This book was somehow the model or template for his life. Here's where it gets even crazier. Donald Barr's son is William Barr. William Barr was the Attorney General under Trump and under Bush. 41 under Trump. When Epstein got arrested, and as the acting Attorney General, he went and visited Epstein's jail cell and met with his cellmate, this guy, Efrain Stone Reyes, who mysteriously died six months later. What acting Attorney General ever visits the jail cell of a random person who's committed a crime? That's crazy. But here's where it gets crazier. Bill Barr was the CIA intern in 1974, 1975, around the church Committee, he was a Senate CIA intern. So as far as, like, obstructing justice and possibly deleting records around MK Ultra, that would be the perfect place to do it.
- [44:19]
A
The story on MKUltra Records is they were all destroyed by Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb, but they somehow found seven boxes of documents in a storage facility somewhere, and then those are the documents that got released eventually. So that's called a limited hangout. That's actually the CIA's term, which is you let a little bit of information out, cover up the greater information. It's a standard operating strategy.
- [44:49]
B
So I wonder if Bill Barr was, like, covering up for his dad's, you know, horrible. This is crazy speculation. I'm speculating. I have no idea. But it's very. It's a weird fact pattern.
- [45:04]
A
Have you ever heard of a woman
- [45:05]
B
named Patty Hearst, William Randolph Hearst's daughter
- [45:10]
A
who was kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army.
- [45:16]
B
Tell me this story. So William Randolph Hirsch, for people that don't know, is the model for Orson Welles, Citizen Kane. He is the premier kind of publisher of the biggest newspapers, San Francisco Chronicle and stuff in the US and specifically California.
- [45:34]
A
This connects into Jim Jones and Jonestown as well. Okay, so Patty Hearst's boyfriend, whose name I just forget now, he was observed, and it was reported in public domain on site at the People's Temple location in Ukiah, California, before they moved to South America. Then Donald DeFreeze, who was a petty criminal, same thing. Couldn't read a book. He was transferred within the prison system to a new location where he walked out of the prison into the public, and then a psychological warfare expert with the army in the Vietnam War, came over under cover of the Black Cultural association, met with him repeatedly, gave him his codename of C I n q u e 5, and then, lo and behold, he kidnaps Patty Hearst. So the story is that the Symbionese Liberation army came into the apartment of Paddy Hurston. The boyfriend knocked the boyfriend out. So he's just an innocent bystander who happened to be at Jim Jones three months earlier. And then they take Patty Hearst and they terrorize her. Sensory deprivation, sensory isolation, hold her in a closet for weeks on end. She now has a new identity, Tanya, who participates in a bank robbery.
- [47:17]
B
Jesus.
- [47:18]
A
She's convicted. And then at trial, the people testifying that she's been mind controlled include Louis Jolyne West. It's just like everything's so interwoven and interconnected, so weird. And then she gets pardoned by. Can't remember which president.
- [47:38]
B
No. Jolly west is like this bizarre figure who. It's like Forrest Gump or something. He pops up in all these places, like hiding the truth. Like he, you know, he saw Jack Ruby. So Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald. And he sees him in his cell, right, for was it 24 hours or something? And then he comes out, does a press conference, says Jack Ruby's gone gone crazy. And literally that was the breaking point,
- [48:05]
A
actually he, according to west, shot Oswald while having an epileptic seizure.
- [48:12]
B
What?
- [48:13]
A
That's what.
- [48:14]
B
That was what he said. Because he didn't remember having killed Lee Harvey Oswald.
- [48:20]
A
Right.
- [48:20]
B
So he probably was an MKUltra patient before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, who doesn't remember shooting somebody.
- [48:27]
A
Sirhan Sirhan.
- [48:30]
B
We're just jumping around here. So that's.
- [48:32]
A
He's claimed amnesia for that all the way along.
- [48:35]
B
So the guy that killed the supposed, but not really lone gunman of JFK, MKUltra patient. And then the guy that killed JFK's brother, RFK, who's a famous presidential candidate, attorney general under JFK. He was also probably an MKUltra patient who I think is still alive and to this day does not says that he has no recollection of having shot RFK Robert F. Kennedy.
- [49:02]
A
Yep.
- [49:04]
B
So crazy.
- [49:05]
A
One of the. I can't remember the title of the book, but one of the RFK very well researched books. There's a photograph of the Los Angeles county coroner with a ruler. And he's measuring and counting the bullet entry holes because he knows another person got hit, RFK got hit. And there's certain number of in the door jambs in the walls. Those add up to more than the chambers in the supposed lone shooter's gun.
- [49:37]
B
That's right. And I believe it was the same coroner who saw JFK, who wasn't happy about the treatment of JFK's body before he examined it and thought there was some malfeasance there. And I think it was a lot of gunshots, specifically from the back in RFK's case.
- [49:53]
A
And yeah, the supposed shooter's four, five, six feet in front.
- [49:57]
B
In front of. That's right, sir.
- [49:59]
A
Hansen shot was close range from behind.
- [50:01]
B
That's right. And I believe Robert F. Kennedy, because I think he was like giving a speech or something, falls back and grabs this guy behind him and falls down on this guy. That guy was a Lockheed skunk works bodyguard named Eugene Thain Caesar.
- [50:20]
A
Oh, man.
- [50:21]
B
And I believe if you asked Robert F. Kennedy, who's obviously now, you know, Health and Human Services Secretary, he will say, I think Eugene Thain Caesar, that Lockheed security guard killed my father.
- [50:35]
A
He would say that or he has.
- [50:36]
B
He would say that. He would say that. I think he believes that. And why.
- [50:40]
A
I'm not doubting him. But why do you think that's what he believes? He must have said something.
- [50:45]
B
Oh, I believe he. No, I'm saying I believe that he has publicly said this.
- [50:48]
A
He's publicly said a 24 year old
- [50:50]
B
Palestinian man named Saran Saron shot him
- [50:54]
A
with a.22 caliber revolver. He was hit three times.
- [50:57]
B
Five other people were wounded as well.
- [50:59]
A
Well, I didn't. First of all, I would dispute that description of what happened.
- [51:04]
B
Okay.
- [51:06]
A
I don't believe that Sir Ann's bullets ever hit my father. Oh, he was shot from behind by
- [51:12]
B
somebody who was standing behind him with
- [51:15]
A
a gun pressed between the two of them and firing. And that man was almost certainly Eugene Thain Cesar, who was a security guard who had been hired the day before.
- [51:26]
B
So pretty wild. And I think he thinks it was all done at the behest of this guy Bob Mayhew, who was the general counsel for Howard Hughes or like the right hand man for Howard Hughes. And it's all just so spooky. You have all these guys who were tied in with the 5412 Commission at the time. This sort of interagency coordination group that I think originally starts out for, you know, if the President wants to do some spooky covert action, it's plausible deniability for him. It's interagency coordination and it turns into this sort of runaway, you know, deep state faction that just, you know, has its own age.
- [52:07]
A
Really. Runaway or not really, it's always a question, right?
- [52:10]
B
That's the other. Yeah, you'd call it runaway. But maybe it is always plausible deniability for the President. Who knows? I mean, you do have this famous speech, obviously. Eisenhower gives beware of the military industrial complex. And you have to wonder if he was referring to groups like that. But okay, so we're just knocking him down as far as sacred cow assassinations and they just all seem to be related to MK Ultra. One person that people wonder about all the time, not in the kind of political realm, but in the cultural realm, is the icon, John Lennon. The lead singer of the Beatles, who was this obviously counterculture hero, was probably viewed as a threat by J. Edgar Hoover and other people.
- [52:54]
A
No, those guys are definitely unhappy about him. That's known.
- [52:58]
B
So tell me about his killer and was he possibly an MKUltra patient?
- [53:03]
A
I don't know about who controlled him, but he was sort of like a low level guy without a whole ton of money, took off on a world tour.
- [53:14]
B
What's his name? Mark David Chapman.
- [53:16]
A
Mark David Chapman. He was in a psych hospital in Hawaii for a while. He comes back and there's. I can't remember the name of the biography, but in the biography of him in great detail, it describes he had a whole bunch of people inside his head. Robert was the head guy. I mean he had mpd. Did by description for sure. If that's all accurate.
- [53:46]
B
The MPD for the audience is Multiple
- [53:49]
A
Personality disorder, which was renamed dissociative identity disorder. At 94.
- [53:54]
B
Did one of the personalities, was it saying you have to kill John Lennon?
- [53:59]
A
That part's not known.
- [54:01]
B
So why do we think that he possibly was MK Ultra and not just like, you know, multiple personality disorder, you might associate with some sort of generic mental illness or something?
- [54:14]
A
Maybe. Could be. Don't know for sure.
- [54:15]
B
Okay, so hard to say there.
- [54:17]
A
But it's, it's not just wild, out of nowhere. Theorize it. It's realistically possible that he could have been handled.
- [54:25]
B
Well, is there anything else, any other evidence besides just having multiple personality disorder?
- [54:32]
A
Let's see. What's the.
- [54:36]
B
Because I think in exam details there's
- [54:38]
A
so many of them. What's the book that was published in the 50s? There was a trigger for him.
- [54:43]
B
Oh, Catcher in the Rye.
- [54:44]
A
Catcher in the Rye, yeah, yeah.
- [54:45]
B
J.D. salinger. Yeah.
- [54:48]
A
So he went to a bookstore and got that book which maybe was the trigger before doing the shootings.
- [54:56]
B
Oh, interesting. Like the book triggered. Oh, Jesus. Maybe that is wild. Well, I think Sirhan Sirhan, going back to the Robert F. Kennedy thing. I believe he was writing in his diary at the time, like Must Kill RFK or something. Like he had this sort of like it was like he had been programmed.
- [55:16]
A
You can't. I've looked at that in different books. You can't tell. Is it just psychotic rambling Obsessing or is it programming?
- [55:26]
B
And he also. He had like, memory lapses, right? Like, didn't he have some.
- [55:31]
A
Like, he was traumatized in the Middle east as a kid because there's a lot of war going on and his apartment was bombed and he saw some dismembered bodies and stuff. So he has a trauma foundation for being a dissociative guy.
- [55:47]
B
Speaking of trauma foundation, you read some of these Epstein files and you start to go beyond. This is just sick, you know, pedophile elite, powerful people fulfilling their bizarre fantasies and into a territory of their systematically conditioning some of these young people and creating what you call the trauma foundation so that these people are susceptible and impressionable to future sort of manipulation. Do you think there was some sort of undercurrent there with the Epstein thing?
- [56:24]
A
Well, first of all, it's a bunch of sex offender guys. There's huge financial part to it. Sex trafficking. I mean, it's a multi billion dollar industry, right? So there's their own personal sexual, whatever. There's the money, there's the scoring points with the other guys and being high ranking in that subculture and then who knows what else.
- [56:48]
B
Pretty, pretty bizarre, man. It's a weird world. You read that stuff and you're like, oh, my God. Like, it really. Not only does it sort of vindicate the super conspiracy theorists, like people who believed in Pizzagate because it looks like jerky and hot dog, like these foods were like code words for children. And so it was just gross. Not only is it vindication for that, but it's vindication for people who, I think, viewed like, the world more metaphysically and thought elite power structures weren't just vying for power, but maybe were doing the bidding of some, like, evil entities above them. Like, what would drive anybody to do these sorts of things? It's, you know, it's like, I think Les Wexner, who was Epstein's like one of his closest associates, and I think, you know, you, like, provided him with a house in Ohio and stuff and like, you know, piles of money. Yeah, piles of money. He was the Victoria's Secret founder and CEO.
- [57:48]
A
So do we think this guy has access to women?
- [57:51]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there you go. And then.
- [57:55]
A
But.
- [57:55]
B
But also, I believe in the 80s or 90s, Les Wexner's writing in his diary and he's talking about being haunted by a dybbuk. And a dybbuk is, I think in Hebrew it means demon. And so you get into this, these weird territory where it's like you're not even doing this for your own sick, sadistic, twisted pleasure. You're doing this because you're doing the bidding of some higher, even more evil thing.
- [58:25]
A
Now we're definitely outside the documents.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah, we are.
- [58:28]
A
We're outside regular psychiatry. Yes, so but now you're into supernatural, multidimensional entities which then takes us into aliens and sure, who knows? I don't pretend to know the answers to all this stuff.
- [58:43]
B
Well, speaking of supernatural entities, I know
- [58:46]
A
you're not interested in aliens at all.
- [58:47]
B
Not at all. It's not. Who cares? You know, maybe we'll get to that at some point. But no, it's funny. One of the people you mention in the documents, as far as, you know, psychiatrists deeply implicated in MK Ultra is a guy named Michael Persinger. And do you know about his God helmet? The Persinger God helmet. So tell us about that.
- [59:08]
A
Well, there's Martin Oren, Jolly west were on the board of the False Memory Syndrome foundation that was formed in 1992. And there's if you ever watched a movie called Star wars, there's the light in the dark. Right. Universal themes.
- [59:27]
B
Yes.
- [59:27]
A
So 1980 comprehensive textbook of psychiatry that I studied is like the bible of psychiatry. Three volumes. It's like literally this thick. Way at the back of volume two there's a small section called topics of special interest, which is irrelevant stuff that we thought we'd throw in way at the back. And a chapter called incest, which is not a relevant topic in psychiatry. In that chapter there's a reference to a 1955 study saying that incest occurs in one family out of a million in North America. Those were the medical facts in 1980. So there's been massive cover up of childhood trauma, childhood sexual abuse, sexual harassment on. And rape. There was no rape. Crisis centers around it was all completely irrelevant to the mental health of the population.
- [60:21]
B
Is the implication of these psychiatrists who are causing trauma being on this false memory foundation, is it like they're gaslighting the people that they've traumatized by saying they're false memories? Or like what's the.
- [60:37]
A
Well, I think it's. This is now speculation too. I'm going to speculate, if you don't mind.
- [60:41]
B
Sure.
- [60:41]
A
I know you don't like speculation.
- [60:43]
B
I love speculation.
- [60:44]
A
Oh, I misread that. It's hard to tell. So I think there's. If you look at the people on the board and the people who've been active in the false memory, what was that organization trying to do for sure, for A fact publicly stated. Get rid of multiple personality. Nobody's diagnosing it. Nobody's treating it, discredit it, ridicule it, shut it down. So what were their motives? It wasn't just one thing. So there's a bunch of people who are sort of memory experts, and it doesn't fit with their model of memory that you can induce amnesia or even have amnesia just on your own as part of ptsd. So they don't like that, so they want to shut that down. Then there's, I think, a group of people who actually were mistakenly falsely accused of incest. So they want some organization to help them out. Then there's people who were actually incest perpetrators. They need a defense. So it's all false memories. And then there's a group of people who just think that's a whole bunch of stupid Freudian theory and we've grown past that and we want to shut down all that nonsense. And then there's Jolly West, Martin Orne. Their motive being to cover up the mentoring candidate programs because therapists are starting to tune into multiple personalities which didn't exist back in the. Back in the day. Hardly. And we're just starting to hear stories of. I was taken to a military base, I was taken to a lab. I was spun around physically, did things with goggles, all kinds of experimental stuff to create alter personalities. So this is leaking out into public. So that better get shut down.
- [62:34]
B
Jesus.
- [62:35]
A
So there's multiple motives there.
- [62:36]
B
You said spun around and disoriented.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah, it's all. What do you. If you go to Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay, where we've all been by looking at photos. Right. What do you see being done? Torture, food deprivation. Sensory deprivation. Isolation, hooding. Sitting in forced postures for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours at Abu Ghraib, being forced to naked do sex stuff with other male Muslim guys with a female US Officer watching mock dog attacks. Electric shock. There's photographs of all this stuff and insulting the religion and stomping. Literally physically stomping on and destroying the Quran.
- [63:31]
B
Why would. I mean, but doing that to our. Horrible. To do that to anyone. Doing that to our own citizens feels even crazier.
- [63:42]
A
Well, so jumping back to Guantanamo Bay, why would we be doing all this stuff? That's just classical brainwashing, mind control technology. So suspicion. They're actually trying to like. Guantanamo Bay is actually a training breeding ground for venturing candidate double agents who then get released.
- [64:03]
B
Wow.
- [64:04]
A
Go back home, maybe.
- [64:06]
B
Oh, interesting. So it's like the like worst case outcome is you inflict a lot of pain on the person, they give you vital information, you break them. The best case is that you can actually create some split personality or something and then send them back into their home turf, their home countries.
- [64:29]
A
Right.
- [64:30]
B
Jesus Christ, that's gnarly, man. That, I mean that makes sense.
- [64:35]
A
It makes sense. The odds that it's never been done anywhere seem slim to me.
- [64:39]
B
Well, yeah, no, I mean that definitely has been. That's crazy.
- [64:43]
A
There's a little side story. Since I'm Canadian by birth, I got two passports. Now there's a guy named Omar Kader, I'm not quite sure how you pronounce his last name, who was a terrorist in the Middle East. I think it was Afghanistan. It was either Iraq or Afghanistan. And he threw a grenade that wounded several American service guys. Well, how do you get his hands on the grenade? How old was he? 12. So 12 year old kid, a platoon of US soldiers invades his village way out in the middle of nowhere. There's a firefight, he gets shot. This is according to the US military. He's under rubble, he gets pulled out, he gets taken back to here and here ends up at Guantanamo Bay because he's a known terrorist. And I don't know if it's true or not true, but they say that they're interested in him because his father may have communicated with Osama Bin Laden. So we're going to hold a 12 year old kid who's now 18, 19, 20 for almost a decade to try and get information out of him because we can't get that information out in a couple of weeks and he's a terrorist and then he gets released and goes back to Canada and Canada gives him 10 million and place to stay. So such stupid stories and such ridiculous behavior. For what purpose?
- [66:24]
B
It's very weird. So you think there's this ulterior motive
- [66:27]
A
of, I don't know if it's just gung ho, as you mentioned, cowboy craziness, or there's some sort of ulterior motive or plan. Like what are the odds that a 12 year old kid knows anything about anything?
- [66:41]
B
Speaking of kind of couriers that are split off from some hermetically sealed, almost encrypted part of themselves that's carrying a message into kind of deep foreign territory. One of the craziest stories from your book is about a woman named Candy Jones.
- [67:00]
A
Right?
- [67:01]
B
What's her deal?
- [67:03]
A
The control of Candy Jones is her biography, not autobiography. So she was a pinup girl in World War II. In the Pacific theater. Came back, was just kind of living a fairly regular life, nothing much going on. And then there's a guy who's. Oh, I'm not going to remember this name either. But there's a guy who is a military intelligence guy who's living in the same building who kind of interacted with her a bit. And she ended up getting worked on by this psychiatrist. Had a new identity that was doing courier assignments and who knows exactly what kind of assignments. And then she wrote, she and her biographer wrote about that in detail.
- [67:53]
B
What were the career assignments? Where did she go?
- [67:58]
A
Philippines. I can't remember the whole list of places.
- [68:01]
B
Maybe Taiwan.
- [68:01]
A
I think probably it was over eastern Asia.
- [68:05]
B
Yeah. The Gifted and Talented Education program in the United States. This often comes up as possibly related to some of these mind control experiments, but being done systematically on young people. You have a lot of people now coming out saying they had me drink a pink drink that erased my memory. Or I was told to stare at a sine wave and collapse the sine wave, or look at a piece of metal and see how I mentally interacted with the metal. Sometimes being spun around on people's vestibular systems, being messed with. I think there's something called the G lock or something like that.
- [68:46]
A
I don't know that.
- [68:48]
B
Have you heard anything about the Gifted and Talented education program?
- [68:52]
A
A few sort of floating rumors. That's about it.
- [68:55]
B
Okay.
- [68:56]
A
But I had people have told me what, whatever the program was called, that how did they get into it? Well, their dad took them over there because they, they had dirt on their dad because he was a sex offender and so on. Another route is after school programs, special school programs. And then the special school program got transferred over to the base. So. I've heard those stories.
- [69:21]
B
Do you think any of this stuff. Do UFOs ever come up in your research? Do you think any of this relates to UFOs?
- [69:29]
A
Touched on that a few times. At risk of being dismissed as a UFO conspiracy nut. Of course.
- [69:37]
B
You're in good company.
- [69:39]
A
Are you outrank me? Actually.
- [69:41]
B
Yeah.
- [69:42]
A
I'm just a low level guy.
- [69:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, you can, you can, you know, look, look very sane next to me. So. So I'm wearing a ridiculous shirt that says Believe and alien on.
- [69:54]
A
I'm wide open to aliens. Like we know that there's like multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple reports of visual sighting from the ground. Visual sighting from the pilot, simultaneous radar sighting from the ground, Radar sighting from the jet turning right angles at Mach 3, jumping up 80,000ft in seconds. That's all documented. These things have been observed over and over and over, which maybe we can get to Roswell in a second here. So there's clearly craft and it's kind of like taking the lid off little bit by little bit by little bit. Because it was all mockery, mockery, mockery, mockery. But now it's not mockery anymore. Why? We're not talking about those crazy UFOs anymore. We're talking about UAPs. So that's sort of a sanitizing, take the bad aura off. And the military and the government are saying there's UAPS that are not from us. So, okay, so is that cover story for some advanced program of our own? But it's not any technology that's anywhere near the public domain. So there definitely are UAPS flying around. Do they have biological occupants from other planets? Just based on that information, you can't say for sure. But it's not just a made up by nutcases thing. It's an officially acknowledged phenomenon by the government. And if it's not like it's not the Russians, it's not the Chinese, it's not us. Yep, we kind of run out of possibilities here.
- [71:42]
B
Well, also, if you think of UFOs as this like sacred truth, like a UFO itself is just a kind of a byproduct. It's this like, you know, it's the tip of the iceberg, which is just this object.
- [71:53]
A
Right.
- [71:54]
B
That's flying in ways that we don't understand. And then if you think of that as the tip of the spear on like a deeper kind of worldview, metaphysical worldview, that is just much more expanded than this kind of materialist, reductionist, you know, kind of overly scientific view that we have today. I wonder if government or power structures think about people who are seeking truth and looking systematically into UFOs as some, some sort of like, you know, threat, because it's inherently kind of an irreverent search. It's, you're looking for, you know, authority beyond the government or you're looking for again, metaphysics that's very kind of expanded. And so I do sometimes wonder if there are initiatives in the government to kind of manufacture division and stoke conflict within the UFO community or instigate belief in sort of bizarre ways or so
- [72:53]
A
without having any evidence. I'm sure there are.
- [72:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are too.
- [72:58]
A
Just the way intelligence operations operate. Yeah, you're always sowing to sand back in one side, back in the other side.
- [73:05]
B
Yeah.
- [73:05]
A
And if you just see it as A huge theater distraction, huh? What's it being distracted from? Well, it's because there really are aliens and somebody in the government is interacting with them, or it's our own advanced weaponry that we want to keep a lid on.
- [73:24]
B
Yeah, I know, I know one or the other. I know enough to know that there's some aliens is a. You know, you are kind of being presumptuous by saying aliens, as far as you know them being from another planet. And I'm saying, not you, I'm saying anybody. I'm never presumptuous and you're never presumptuous. Now, you do stick with the facts. I don't, but.
- [73:46]
A
Well, I just like to use facts as the base.
- [73:47]
B
I think that's true. I don't mind going on speculate. That's what you have to do. That's what you have to do with these things. And I actually think it's irresponsible not to speculate if per what you said, you're being given little bits and pieces of information strategically, per these limited hangouts. If you're not trying to figure out what's actually going on and you're just taking at face value what you're being given, that's, that's an issue if you're being given the data set by somebody who's trying to throw you off.
- [74:12]
A
Do you have to sip on the Kool Aid while you're doing that?
- [74:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing. You have to sip on it and then say this Kool Aid tastes bad and spit it out or something, you know, so it's, it's, it's a really tough. These things are tough to look into because the people that are the bad actors are often the sources of information. So it's, it's a weird, it's a weird space. But yeah, I do wonder how much interaction the UFO stuff and the MK Ultra stuff is. I mean, okay, why don't we.
- [74:41]
A
Why don't. There's zero in the MK Ultra related documents. Yeah, not one word. Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with epglis, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four in 10 people taking emplis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year. With monthly dosing.
- [75:07]
B
Emplis Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg per 2ml
- [75:11]
A
injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.
- [75:24]
B
EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Ecglis.
- [75:29]
A
Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new
- [75:33]
B
or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting Eglis, tell your doctor if
- [75:39]
A
you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about eglis and visit ebgliss.lilly.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545.
- [75:48]
B
The only connection I think I can. Yeah, the. The only connection I have is I believe in Jacques Vallee. Jacques Vallee is his famous French godfather. You're aware of him? Yeah, he's just amazing UFO researcher. He's the basis for Francois Truffaut's character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He was JL and a Hynix assistant in Blue Book. And he was also one of the kind of early pioneers of the Internet. He helped build ARPANET under Doug Engelbart. He has these like series of diaries where he just writes about his meetings that he has and they're called Forbidden Science. And he is like, I think five volumes at this point. And he talked about, I believe, Sidney Gottlieb or like some of his. Some like people in the, like the CIA, you know, technical staff services, like that world, them having books on UFOs and trying to understand what's going on with them, but like not really understanding what's going on with them. So there's some sort of interest on the part of people who are clearly deeply implicated in the mind control stuff in the UFO stuff. And then that book I mentioned, Martin Cannon Controllers, he says abductions are just like alien abductions are just a smokescreen for MK Ultra. Like the most famous abduction was Betty and Barney Hill, 1961. They actually say, you know, in their hypnotic regression, the beings look like Nazis or whatever. So then you get these Operation Paperclip scientists brought over.
- [77:26]
A
There's a very cool X Files episode. I don't remember the whole story, but the UFO crashes or something and the, the woman is being like manipulated and she's probably going to get an anal probe and everything by the aliens. Then all of a sudden it's human beings. And then the boss guy says, okay, rinse her out.
- [77:47]
B
Right. So yeah, you know what? I think certain abductions have been that. And then this is where it's so weird. It's kind of the perfect smokescreen for intel because I also think there are real alien abductions. So the Betty and Barney Hill thing I think was a genuine abduction. But also, you know, the other weird fact around that is Charles Douglas Jackson, who worked at, he was like head of, part of the Psychological Strategy Board and ran psychological warfare for the United states in the 50s and I believe was at Time magazine, was responsible for the Zapruder film. So the missing frames in the JFK assassination video, this guy was clearly sort
- [78:28]
A
of like the missing frames in the jail cell for Epstein.
- [78:31]
B
Exactly. The whole minute missing and the raw data. Crazy. So CD Jackson is meeting with the Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks
- [78:40]
A
after they get abducted back to Epstein's. Yeah, so what if there's, let's say it was accidentally missing, which is how slack is that operation? But okay, everything's fine, then a minute later he's dead. You can't even die of asphyxiation in one minute. It takes longer. No, it's ridiculous.
- [79:02]
B
It's ridiculous. That case smells so bad. It's so obvious. And you know, I don't know, it's funny to me to see a lot of like the podcast circuit is like all like up in arms now. And I'm like, we've known this for five years. It's like just look at the facts. Like it's so obvious, you know, not that they shouldn't be up in arms, but they should have been up in arms many years ago. Right, but the human energy field. But let's. We've been covering so much dark stuff and I think the positive element of this is that we all have these kind of bioelectric electromagnetic fields. And I think later, MK Ultra stuff unfortunately deals with like chip implantations and stuff that is kind of freaky and weird.
- [79:50]
A
Putting implants in dolphins brains and guiding them to drop bombs is what.
- [79:57]
B
Who did that?
- [79:59]
A
CIA, military, documented no way being able
- [80:04]
B
to remote control a dolphin to drop a bomb.
- [80:09]
A
What's that? The Day of the Dolphin? Yeah, that movie.
- [80:12]
B
Yeah, it's about John Lilly.
- [80:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. John Lilly is the actual real life character. So the mysterious government organization comes over and starts jacking around with. He's working with dolphins and giving them lsd, which John Lilly actually did. And then what they do is they get a dolphin, they attach the bomb to the dolphin. The dolphin's supposed to go under the. I can't remember if it's the vice president or the president's fishing boat and go release the thing and it blows up and then that gets all shut down. But the documents describe using brain electrode implant. Off he goes, control the root, drop the bomb off. That's described in the document.
- [80:59]
B
Jesus Christ.
- [81:00]
A
There's. So we'll veer into that before we get to the energy fields. So in MK Eltran related documents, there's implanting electrodes in animal brains to control their behavior. There's a guy, Jose Delgado, who's a neurosurgeon at Yale. He's published a book called Towards a Psycho Civilized Society. And he says what we need to do is implant electrodes in the brains of the entire population, not counting the lead generals and the top politicians. And that's how we're going to make society psycho civilized. What stated in the book, clearly it's
- [81:45]
B
the mark of the beast.
- [81:46]
A
Yeah. And so there's photographs in medical journals. One is a 16 year old girl who's had electrode in her brain. And Delgado, the technical advance he made was you don't have to have the wire connected, you can use a remote transmitter to activate the electrode. So depending on which electrode is being activated, she's normal, she's strumming on her guitar, she's pounding furiously on the wall or she's just like out of it. This is photographs of this girl and then in monkeys. And one of the stupid cover stories is oh yeah, we were trying this on cats. We had the cat with an electrode, we're sending it off into the world, but it ran in front of a car and got killed. So we never do that again. So this is how it leaks into Hollywood as fiction, but it's actually fact. And it's treatment of epilepsy is why we're putting electrodes in people's brains. All 100% documented. Then there's a guy in Tulane University, Robert Heath, psychiatrist, who's funded by CIA and multiple branches of the military. He's doing brain electrode implants and has the remote transmitter. He's curing the well known mental disease of homosexuality. Because according to the American psychiatrist, being
- [83:22]
B
sarcastic for anybody taking that wasn't sarcastic.
- [83:26]
A
If we jumped back in time to
- [83:27]
B
1972, don't you talk about attempts to program somebody's sexuality turning somebody.
- [83:33]
A
Well, this Robert Heath guy who Coming back to Robert Heath at Tulane. Electrode in the gay guy's brain expose him to heterosexual pornography over and over and over and over. To condition them while you're stimulating the electrode to put them in a state of pre orgasmic arousal. So you're pairing arousal with heterosexuality. And towards the end, this is all published in mainstream medical journal that I've actually published in myself. Towards the end, they brought in a female prostitute, had her have sex with the guy while they're monitoring his brain waves. And then they debrief him and the prostitute, and she says, yep, he functioned well.
- [84:16]
B
Normal, no way.
- [84:18]
A
And then the end of the paper is. So he was cured of homosexuality with only one relapse in the first six months.
- [84:25]
B
Jesus. And they'll flat only one receipt. But that's what.
- [84:28]
A
That's in the mainstream literature. Well, just like the Tuskegee syphilis study is published in mainstream journal.
- [84:36]
B
That is. This is crazy. That's crazy.
- [84:38]
A
So that's the crazy stuff that goes on in the psychiatry literature and in the official manual of psychiatry, let alone the hidden stuff about psychiatry.
- [84:47]
B
Jesus, man. So we're just more. I mean, John Lilly, who we were talking about the inspiration for the Day of the Dolphin, he would do. He kind of invented the isolation tank, and he would take, you know, a lot of ketamine and would, you know, get into these dissociative states. And he even, like, I think at one point summoned this thing he called the ssi, the Solid State Entity. And would communicate. Oh, yeah, he would communicate with this sort of alien intelligence. And he wrote a book called, I think, was it Human Programming and Metaprogramming?
- [85:21]
A
I haven't read it.
- [85:22]
B
I think so. So just on the note of what you're saying, it just feels like humans are far more like, programmable than we. We don't think of ourselves as suggestible. We think of ourselves as sort of fixed. But in fact, we're way more impressionable than we'd ever believe.
- [85:41]
A
Well, just take a look at Hollywood in the 50s. We were hunting communists, some of whom were communists, and a bunch weren't. And like, everybody was on board with, we gotta clean up America here. So that was pretty unanimous. And now it's flipped to the opposite extreme, where if you're not way over on the left, try finding work in Hollywood.
- [86:06]
B
Yeah, it's really hard.
- [86:07]
A
And so then that's just the programmability of people in general. They swing over here, they swing over there.
- [86:15]
B
Humans are extremely mimetic. And, you know, you just sort of ideas are fashion statements. And you see it especially on social media is like really amplifies this because it's a hall of mirrors massively. So if you're not like saying the thing that's like really popular right now, then you're sort of, you're falling behind and you're not staying relevant or something.
- [86:39]
A
There's a guy at British Commerce Meal, so me being originally Canadian, he just got fined. It was something like $750,000 for making. Just stating an opinion.
- [86:56]
B
Yeah.
- [86:56]
A
That there's only two genders and two sexes.
- [86:58]
B
That's insane.
- [86:59]
A
He got fined three quarters of a million dollars.
- [87:02]
B
That is so crazy. That is so crazy.
- [87:05]
A
So that's what's different. That and the McCarthy era.
- [87:08]
B
Do you think, do you think people like Jolly west tried to affect culture via celebrity? Like I actually, I met a woman who was Charlton Heston's daughter in law. This really sweet lady. And if you're out there, hello. And she, you know, Charlton Heston obviously, you know, is a legendary actor, but Charlton Heston was this NRA champion. So he was this, you know, National Rifle Association. You know, when shootings would happen, he would sort of be in the counter rally saying protect the second amendment, the right to bear arms.
- [87:44]
A
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
- [87:46]
B
That's right. And that, you know, and if anything it mitigates violence and all this stuff. And then I found out there's some
- [87:52]
A
data to support that in a reverse sense. There's fewer deaths at home from guns in homes that don't have guns, which is. Well, hello, it's pretty obvious.
- [88:07]
B
That's a good stat. And for me, this is not. I moved from California to Texas, so I'm not, this is not a polemic on, you know, I'm not anti, anti gun necessarily. But I do find it interesting that a guy in Jolly west who's clearly programmed a lot of violence at high levels in the US is best friends with the guy who's the, the head of the NRA and this gun champion. Again, that seems interesting to me. Is there something there?
- [88:38]
A
You keep asking me questions as if I might know the answer.
- [88:41]
B
I don't know. You know, we're speculating. We're in, we're in kind of really murky territory. But.
- [88:45]
A
Well, obviously it's a huge industry, right?
- [88:48]
B
Yeah.
- [88:49]
A
So there's the financial part of it. There is the gung ho cowboy part. In Canada. I lived up in the Canadian Arctic. I probably killed two or 300 ptarmigan, which is a type of grouse that Turns white in the winter. I owned a rifle. I never did shoot a moose, but I owned a rifle. So, you know, I was out in the woods walking around, hunting, killing, eating. In southern Canada. I shot lots of rabbits and cooked them and ate them. So I'm not, you know, we can't kill the animals type person, but the amount of gun violence in the United States, when you look at the graphs, like per hundred, the United States is up here. Next country's like, down here.
- [89:32]
B
Well, that.
- [89:32]
A
So this is so out of control.
- [89:34]
B
It's out of control. And this is what I'm getting at. And this is a really weird, deep conspiratorial thread of which we've, you know, developed a few here. But. But it seems like the things Jolly west are involved with, and this cuts to Tom o' Neill's thesis with chaos is the construction of somebody like a Manson, because he looked and talked and walked like a hippie. When counterculture was at its greatest threat to, again, people like J. Edgar Hoover, who were running the FBI at the time, the State Department guys were a little bit straight. What's that?
- [90:14]
A
They were a little bit straight.
- [90:15]
B
What do you mean, Jared Goober?
- [90:17]
A
I mean, they weren't hippies, they were straight guys.
- [90:21]
B
Oh, exactly. Well, speaking of the, you know, kind of proverbial, he wasn't exactly totally straight. Well, he was a cross. He was into cross dressing. And they had all this compliment on him. I know.
- [90:31]
A
Yeah.
- [90:32]
B
Well, it's always. It's always this sort of narcissism of small differences, weird thing going on. So. But the point, like, he had it out for counterculture. Right. And so this is what Tom o' Neill concludes in his book is they're going to construct somebody that looks like a hippie in Charles Manson who literally had. He was like this wannabe artist. He has a song called look at your game Girl, he's living with the Beach Boys. And then you have, you know, this, you know, famous quote by Joan Didion right after the murders saying, you know, August, I think it was 8th, 1968, was the, you know, the day that the. Or maybe 1969, I don't remember, was the day that the 60s ended. The day that he, you know, committed the murders. The next, the 60s ended. Counterculture, hippie culture, all that stuff's over. So the threat is over if you're part of the establishment structure. And so you have to wonder, again, with this connection with Charlton Heston and gun violence, was Jolly west specifically stoking symbolic violence, violence where you were creating Local violence in order to move society in a specific teleology. Like, if you look at certain violent things that happen now, they get amplified so much across social media, whether it's Kyle Rittenhouse on the right or George Floyd on the left. I'm not making a comment on either of those things. It's not something I want to weigh into. Like, both. Both, you know, kind of.
- [92:03]
A
There's a very curious thing with George Floyd. Yeah, Obviously not a good guy.
- [92:08]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [92:08]
A
Obviously didn't deserve to die.
- [92:10]
B
It didn't deserve to die.
- [92:11]
A
He was killed by the police officer, but he was cranked up on coke and had heart condition. But for sure.
- [92:18]
B
But we should say it was a. It was a horrific video and it would get any reasonable person watched up. Yeah.
- [92:24]
A
So, but why select him as the poster child? He's for a documented fact, held a pistol to a black pregnant woman's abdomen while robbing her house. We want that guy to be our hero.
- [92:40]
B
There are all sorts of. Yeah.
- [92:43]
A
So is that chosen on purpose to set up the counter argument that he's an all good bad guy, or they just overlook it, or how does that operate?
- [92:53]
B
Well, this is the thing, I think, in either of those cases. Or you could come up with a million different examples of, like, public violence, violence that gets amplified across social media. Again, not making a comment on, you know, you could go get in all sorts of, like, deep arguments as to, you know, who's the guy who's like, you know, I can't breathe. And he was being choked out, you know, in Brooklyn.
- [93:14]
A
Clearly it's way past time to.
- [93:16]
B
There's all sorts of police malfeasance in these cases. But I think if you're intel and you're viewing the effect of symbolic violence, there's something. There's something very powerful about that, and it's very powerful if you want to sway things on particular issues. And so I think the public should just be aware and not susceptible to the sort of, you know, artificial construction of some of these violent cases.
- [93:45]
A
Good luck on that one.
- [93:46]
B
I know. Yeah.
- [93:47]
A
So here's a little slightly related.
- [93:49]
B
We're saying all these things, and then it's like we're. We're trending in the complete wrong direction as a society as far as our ability to make sense of any of these things. Like, you go on Twitter or TikTok or Instagram and people's brains are being melted by this stuff.
- [94:03]
A
Debate now means shouting your feelings really loudly.
- [94:06]
B
That's right. So, yeah, it almost makes me feel like, because I Said, do you ever feel in danger talking about this stuff?
- [94:12]
A
Like I did a little bit way back, but then nothing happened. So why am I sweating a couple decades later?
- [94:20]
B
Yeah. So it's a story of my podcasting career. I'm like, really? I can say that.
- [94:24]
A
Okay, cool. So far.
- [94:27]
B
Don't. Come on. Have you ever encountered MK Ultra being used in the context of spooky science? So I think of if you had a modern Manhattan Project.
- [94:38]
A
So spooky science means.
- [94:40]
B
Means classified science or science that, you know, maybe would lead to it's low barrier to entry and very destructive.
- [94:48]
A
Right, right.
- [94:49]
B
Or.
- [94:50]
A
But we're talking actual engineering, not confer
- [94:53]
B
a tactical advantage in aerospace or weaponry or anything like that. Because I think of we talked about the Manhattan Project for a second. If you had any sort of modern equivalence of the Manhattan Project and you were working on something really sensitive, you might implant one of the scientists with a chip or tell them to drink a drink or something, and then you'd have like a shutdown switch if they ever got lost in foreign territory. I mean, this is really dark stuff, but have you ever encountered anything like that? Okay, let's get into lighter territory because this is. I'm officially really spooked. This is a great book. This is the.
- [95:34]
A
So so far we've done mostly this book and a little bit this book. Now we're going to do that book.
- [95:38]
B
Now we're going to do this book, the human energy field. What inspired you to write this and what's the basic thesis?
- [95:46]
A
So I'm a hardcore scientist. Right. Mainstream, no flaky stuff at all.
- [95:53]
B
No, you're right down the middle.
- [95:55]
A
Here comes the mainstream, not flaky story. So I'm in England in 67 and I just remember not particularly thinking about the topic. Notting Hill Gate is right at the corner of a big park and I'm just walking into the park and all of a sudden I see a cone of light that comes out of my eyes. It's about 25, 30ft away. Diameter is about like this. And as I move my gaze, it moves up onto the back of a person, then it dissolves. So what the hell? Hadn't taken any LSD that day, so I just stored that experience instead of, oh, that's stupid. And then that made me think about the sense of being stared at, which is very common experience.
- [96:44]
B
And then it's called, you know, there's a word for it, scope. Aesthesia.
- [96:50]
A
I watched you talking to the Rupert Sheldrake. Sheldrake.
- [96:54]
B
That's Right.
- [96:54]
A
And I've read his book, so I'm aware of him.
- [96:56]
B
Yeah.
- [96:57]
A
So because you gotta make it sound scientific, right? What scope aesthesia.
- [97:03]
B
Scope of the. Yeah, you're not fooling around here. Yeah. Make it sound official.
- [97:06]
A
Right?
- [97:07]
B
Yeah.
- [97:07]
A
So which is good strategy. I agree with it. So then uap, so the sense of being stared at and then I started to actually for some reason was more in Italy. When I was traveling in Italy, I remember one time in particular I could actually feel the spot on the side of my face that was being stared at. And I turned around and look at the person that's staring right at me. And then I had another experience of which is conversation. I'm looking through the window, so this energy goes through glass at a nice looking Italian woman walking down the street. And she turns and looks right at me. There's a look of mutual recognition. And then it's like, huh. So that's a very common experience that a lot of people have had. Right. So then I go, I'm not going to just blow that off and say it's which mainstream quote science people say it's misperception, it's an illusion, it's not real. Because there's two theories. There's intromission, which is light comes into your eyes, goes to your retina, back to your brain, that's clearly real. And then extramission is something comes out of your eyes. Extramission, it not allowed. No way, not happening. Going all the way back to John Locke, it's just forbidden. It's not possible. And that dominates academia today. So I go, eh, maybe not. Something's gotta be coming out here for you to sense somebody staring at you. So that's kind of what got me off on this. And then it was spiritual, anthropological, philosophical reading, walking around in the woods in England, in the bush in Canada, sensing energy fields. One time, 1970, 70 or 71, we've got a cabin in the woods in eastern Manitoba. So I was out there with my shotgun hunting rabbit and all of a sudden I go, I could actually feel the stare of the rabbit and feel that it was rabbit like energy turned around, shot it, ate it that evening. So that makes me think there's survival advantage to being able to sense stare. And then that made me think, well, if you're a gazelle out in Africa somewhere and you can sense the predator staring at you and you feel uneasy and you take off, that's going to be selected for over evolution. It's a good survival skill. And so I'm thinking Along those lines. And then I go, well, okay, that's nice, but how are we going to study this scientifically? So Rupert Sheldrick talks about morphic fields, right? But what are morphic fields? Like, how do you measure them? It doesn't lead to a natural experiment. So then I just went, we know for a fact that every atom, everything in the universe emits an electromagnetic field. And then inside there's the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force, and then gravity's in there somehow, but who knows how? So it's just basic physics, right? So then I go, okay, how am I going to be able to marry Eastern and Western medicine? I'm going to say that qi, energy, the spirit, the whatever, the whatever and the electromagnetic field of the body are the same thing, just looked at through different lenses. If you look through this lens, it's all spiritual, mystical, you can't study it, it's outside science. But if you look at it through, oh, it's electromagnetic energy, we can measure that. So you put 20 electrodes on your brain, you measure your EEG, you put 12 electrodes here, you measure your EKG. So we're already measuring the electromagnetic field of the body for diagnostic and treatment purposes. It's mainstream science, nothing wacky about it at all. So the human body only has two parts, the brain and the heart. There's only brain disease and heart disease, that's it. Well, so the whole human body is emitting information of probable high level medical relevance all the time. Why aren't we measuring that? So then I published a paper in a pretty obscure electrical engineering journal where a guy got these guys to sort of weld together a normal electrode that you put in mice's brains to measure stuff. And suspended in front of my eye, so it's not touching my body at all. I've got ski goggles where I took out this side so I could actually see out. This side is covered with tin foil and copper mesh that I got at target. So it's high level science, but that's very good electromagnetic insulation. Then there's another electrode hanging out in front, just in space. And then there's the 20 normal EEG leads and these two frontal leads here. You can see the squiggly lines like normal eeg. So here's the two frontal leads. Here's the lead in front of my eye. No physical contact with my body. Here's the control lead that's just showing background little. It's a completely physiological real signal that's been picked up in front of Your eye, it looks very similar to the electrode readings here. So I mean, the whole world hasn't said, good job. We know that extramission is real now because you still have to say, does it have any physiological or ecological function? How far does it propagate out into space? Turns out that inverse square law shows that the signals drop off really fast. But extra low frequency, like brainwave level propagates because if you figure the wave is so huge it's not going to drop off, and it doesn't drop off published in mainstream journals for thousands of kilometers, the signal intensity doesn't drop off. So it's perfectly realistically possible that from here to the gazelle, it's still a strong signal. So then I go into the anthropology of it. Well, what about the sense of being stared at? But in Italy, these people are called jetatori. So they jet the evil eye out of their eye. There's evil eye beliefs all around the world. Right. And you can cause evil eye sickness by staring at a person if you're a Jeditori who's got bad energy. So I go, okay, so there's all kinds of cultural precedents for this. What if it like 80% of that superstition? I don't care. My thesis is there's a core real electrophysiological signal there that can be investigated.
- [104:10]
B
That's fascinating. So you have the. And what's really crazy is you said elf, extremely low frequency. Andrei Puharich, who isn't in some of the documentation that you went through for CIA doctors, but you're aware of him, he was fascinated by ELF waves and thought that that was kind of the signal for consciousness.
- [104:31]
A
Right.
- [104:32]
B
And that was, I think, the more kind of shut down part of. Part of his work. So what are you saying is evidence for extramission? This idea that the. What are you saying that the eyes emit photons or electrons or what specifically? Or ELF waves.
- [104:47]
A
Your brain emits brain waves, which we measure by putting electrodes on your skull. And we have to do a little contact paste there just to get a good contact, otherwise there's too much noise. So these, which I mentioned before we started recording, these electrical engineers, mainstream grant funded mainstream publications, they could take a normal clinical EKG from a meter away with no contact with the body. Sure. So these signals for sure are propagating out into space. If they go a meter because it's elf, or the ELF component is going way the heck out there. We know for a fact. Proven, no doubt, and me with my one little paper have proven it's coming out of your eye. So there's all these brain waves going on. They got to get through your skull to get to the electrode. They don't have to go through your skull to come out your eye. The optic nerve is this giant electrical cable literally right there. And just the geometry of the skull and focus concentration, probably the signal's gonna be stronger coming out of your eye.
- [105:53]
B
Oh, it's so wild and it.
- [105:55]
A
But it's completely scientifically testable and scientifically plausible. It's not mysticism.
- [106:01]
B
Yeah.
- [106:02]
A
So that's what I'm trying to do is take all this stuff and transform it into very specified ways this could be tested. Which, by the way, I would like some financial help with that from somebody, some kind person somewhere.
- [106:15]
B
Yeah.
- [106:17]
A
And so this is electrode technology. It looks like from a little bit I've looked into it, probably an antenna technology is better. There's very high sensitive antennae that exist and you can buy them online. So whether it's electrode or antenna, start measuring these signals. So for the eye part of it, which I'm just. It's kind of my personal hobby horse because I've already been ridiculed in public for talking about extramission, which I called the Human I beam. But then I realized, actually, my daughter told me you can't call it the Human I Beam if you're going to publish it. So it's human ocular extramission.
- [106:57]
B
That sounds way more professional. Does it decay at all? So I think of a normal electromagnetic wave as decaying at 1 over r squared. So 1 over distance squared.
- [107:08]
A
Life doesn't decay like that.
- [107:09]
B
What does it decay like?
- [107:11]
A
I don't know for sure, but minimally, for literally hundreds of kilometers.
- [107:16]
B
So if I'm just thinking about a thing, is the idea that I somehow know how to. Like when I'm. When I'm imprinted, when I'm literally just thinking of something, I'm conjuring it up in my mind. Am I affecting it somehow in this model via these elf waves that geolocate it and literally reach it. Like a physical wave comes out of my brain or eyes whole body and reaches this object.
- [107:44]
A
Transmitter is the solar plexus, in my opinion.
- [107:46]
B
Okay, but. But is a wave emitting from my body and reaching something that is geolocated and temporally located in our time space? Because I think of consciousness, like if you have a mental image of something, I don't necessarily translate that as like you are beaming a thing at it. Or do you think you are with these elf waves?
- [108:12]
A
Well, we're Back to yes, no, maybe. So that's why like the starting point. So my effort is to boil it down to actually testable stuff.
- [108:21]
B
Yeah.
- [108:21]
A
And you got to start here before you go way out here. Right.
- [108:24]
B
So what would be the next test you would run?
- [108:27]
A
Develop a high, high sensitivity electrode.
- [108:32]
B
I would just assume that you can't repeatedly affect an object or a person who's across some sort of, you know, totally electromagnetic shielding, Faraday chamber. And if you, if I, and I know these experiments have been done. Hal Puthoff did experiments like this with Ingo Swann. It's part of Stargate, the official CIA psychic spy program.
- [108:55]
A
Alfred Sheldricks looked into that too. Right?
- [108:57]
B
He's looked into this. But my understanding is it's like it's replicable and it's real, it's a real effect, but that you can't do it every single time. And you can't detect like an exact ELF wave every time. I mean, maybe they just haven't studied the ELF component and it is literally a wave. But somehow my instinct is that it's more complicated than some frequency we're missing. Like my guess is over the last 50 plus years of study in parapsychology with the benefit of information technology and chips and receivers and radio tech, that someone must have done this experiment at some point and picked up.
- [109:36]
A
It's classified.
- [109:38]
B
Do you think so?
- [109:39]
A
Yeah. Again, it's back to the military intelligence community and whoever. All the big companies would be negligent if they weren't trying to investigate this, tap into it, figure out what to do with it.
- [109:54]
B
I agree, but do you think you can repeatedly pick up. So you think ELF waves explain all psychic phenomena?
- [110:00]
A
No.
- [110:00]
B
Okay.
- [110:01]
A
Nothing explains all of everything. So I'm just saying what can we actually measure now with our current technology and publish in a mainstream journal and everybody's going to go, since I've been stared at has just been proven. What do we know about the skin? What happens if you stay out in the sun too long?
- [110:20]
B
Get burned?
- [110:21]
A
Ultraviolet radiation causes the burn.
- [110:24]
B
Uv?
- [110:25]
A
What type of radiation is that? Electromagnetic.
- [110:28]
B
It's electromagnetic. It's.
- [110:30]
A
How do we synthesize vitamin D? Photons hit our skin.
- [110:35]
B
That's right.
- [110:35]
A
They're captured. They drive biological processes. How do we see? So your body's already capturing photons and using them to drive very well organized life, essential processes all the time. So there's nothing. It's just again, right in the middle of common sense and science. So there's these sub threshold rays that I happen to glimpse a Few times that they're just sub threshold doesn't mean they're not real.
- [111:05]
B
You know what I think you should invent? So people have been experimenting with electromagnetic healing modalities for a long time. You have royal rife.
- [111:16]
A
We'll get there.
- [111:17]
B
Yeah.
- [111:17]
A
I'm just building the core of the territory and then.
- [111:20]
B
Well, no, I'll, I'll defend you and say that this is a fact. The voltage gated ion channels is how cells communicate differentials of the potential within the cell membrane and without the outside of the cell membrane. When it comes to things like sodium, potassium is how cells communicate. Local electromagnetic fields affect those differentials affect the communication. There are studies going back to the 70s. There's a guy, Gary Becker, wrote a great book called the Body Electric where.
- [111:50]
A
Great book.
- [111:50]
B
Yeah, great book. You can essentially charge electromagnetically the severed arm of a tadpole. Cut off its arm, charge it electromagnetically.
- [112:03]
A
Salamanders. He did too.
- [112:05]
B
Salamanders.
- [112:05]
A
Salamanders. You can cut off their arm and they regrow it themselves.
- [112:08]
B
You regrow it themselves, but you can regrow, you can create a two headed salamander, two headed tadpole also with basically just taking the, you know, the gradient, the ion gradients of the head cells and then applying it to that stub of an arm that you cut off. So you end up with these. I mean there's literally a guy at Tufts right now named Michael Levin who's doing limb regeneration based on this stuff. It's really wild.
- [112:33]
A
It's all coming.
- [112:34]
B
It's all coming. Absolutely. So for people who are saying this is quack science. No, it's absolutely real. So here's what I think you should do.
- [112:41]
A
Okay.
- [112:43]
B
So Royal Rife.
- [112:44]
A
Yeah.
- [112:44]
B
Who was actually involved?
- [112:46]
A
I'm aware of him. Yeah.
- [112:47]
B
Yeah, you're aware of him. So he was involved in some not so savory research per what we were talking about in Plum Island. And you know where, where probably the modern version of Lyme disease came from.
- [112:57]
A
Speaking of, I've read about that.
- [112:58]
B
Yeah, pretty interesting. But he had this thing called Reif machine, which if you ask a Lyme disease patient to this day, ironically, this is the thing that works for them. It came from this guy Royal Rife and it works on the electromagnetic field of the body. And it essentially is like a horseshoe. It's a copper horseshoe. It looks like basically a Tesla coil and it seems to tune the body in this really healing way. There's another company called Amp Coil which makes things around this area. I've used an Amp coil before.
- [113:31]
A
It's called a Tesla coil.
- [113:33]
B
It's a Tesla coil.
- [113:34]
A
Some guy around here who makes Tesla stuff.
- [113:38]
B
Elon Musk involved. Possibly. Although tricky to get his attention. Yeah, I don't know. But. So I think if you. There's a whole polemic on Elon working on. I don't know. Yeah, but I'm aware. Yeah. Yeah, you're aware. So if you think of the body as you can turn molecular mass into frequency, and every organ or every. Every part of the body should be operating at some optimum frequency. Again, not quacky to say. There's a field called cymatics.
- [114:10]
A
When the frequency goes to zero, we know it's game over.
- [114:12]
B
We know it's game over. And there's a field called cymatics where you can put sand on a vibrational plate and create structures deliberately with frequency and acoustics. And so we know that this is not pseudoscience. So what if you created some sort of. Just like we. You know, you can bank stem cells or blood cord if you're, you know, baby or whatever, and then you do an autologous stem cell transfer later in life if you have some sort of malady. And it can really help you.
- [114:45]
A
Can I tell you a secret about doctors?
- [114:46]
B
What?
- [114:47]
A
They use long words you don't understand to sound smarter.
- [114:50]
B
I know. Sorry for using the word autologous. It's just your own stem cells is what I'm saying, where you don't have an immune reaction due to transferring it. My point is, what if you could figure out there was like an optimum frequency at which your organs or body could operate at.
- [115:05]
A
Bound to be.
- [115:06]
B
You could then create sort of a bank electromagnetically of, you know, what is optimum health for your organs. You could also do that across a large cohort. And then you could create essentially a tuning fork for the human body. And if you think about acoustics and physics and electromagnetics, they exist upstream of biochemistry. Biochemistry is, you know, one layer up on the stack.
- [115:31]
A
Do you want to know the caveman version of that technology?
- [115:34]
B
Tell me. Yeah.
- [115:36]
A
What do you put in a person's chest when they've got atrial fibrillation? A pacemaker.
- [115:41]
B
A pacemaker, Exactly.
- [115:42]
A
We're already doing it.
- [115:43]
B
Can't walk through an X ray because it'll. We are. No, we are. Exactly. We are. We know that the body is electric. Yeah. And what is a defibrillator at all? It's a way to electrically jump the body. So couldn't we do something like this? And then you would end up with this post Medicine. We have medicine, which was really the creation of the Flexner Report and the sort of modern American Medical association, which
- [116:09]
A
is now we're offered to conspiracy theories again.
- [116:10]
B
But it's not even a conspiracy. It's literally. It's petrochemical based. And this was. Rockefeller was funding this stuff. And I'm not saying necessarily it was
- [116:19]
A
all, I'm very critical of Big Pharma.
- [116:21]
B
It's, it's horrible. It's a. It's a bad system. So this is all. It's all this petrochemical based pills. And then if you created this sort of generator that could like take that out like this, literally this thing that could tune your body, how amazing would that be? So you should create it.
- [116:39]
A
Thank you. Yeah, you should get me some money.
- [116:42]
B
So giving you the idea and getting you the money.
- [116:45]
A
Yeah. Well, what else he's got to do
- [116:48]
B
today, I think, okay, fine, I'll own 90% of the company then.
- [116:53]
A
I might have to negotiate on that.
- [116:54]
B
Okay. All right, we'll figure it out.
- [116:58]
A
So. Well, this is all where my thinking is heading. And it's all. There's a TV show and a couple of movies called Star Trek. There's Dr. Bones. Tricorder. I'm talking about developing a tricorder because you use this antenna, okay. So interested about the I beam, but interested in the whole body. And then you can have an array of these, either electrodes or antennae, whatever kind of sensors it is. And you lie the person down and you can have just handheld single version and you can scan around. You can have like a mammogram, X ray type thing, or you can have like an MRI machine would lie in there. You have a ray of these electrodes and you just measure all the frequencies are coming out of the whole body in all the different locations. And can you spot disease at the electromagnetic level before it trickles down to the biological level?
- [118:03]
B
Probably, Probably.
- [118:05]
A
Or you just do the scan. So it's not like an mri. You're not putting any radiation into the person or a CT scan or anything. You're just measuring what comes out. So it's no more noxious than taking a photograph of somebody. There's no side effects at all. And then, okay, just what you've been saying, okay, here's the abnormality that we've measured and we've got all the norms and all the charts and all the different diseases all mapped out. What energy are we going to put back in to normalize this?
- [118:36]
B
Exactly.
- [118:37]
A
So it's a whole electromagnetic medicine. And then I remember Talking to a guy at a sort of a dinner get together, was talking about sort of this kind of stuff. And I was getting on, saying to him, yeah, well satellites now, they can read X rays from the sky and this guy's a military guy and he sort of scoffs at me and surprised me with his reactions. License plate, they can count the hair on a fly's butt. So I mean the resolution is incredible, right? So if I've got little lines here, it's called a fingerprint. I've got an iris here, I've got DNA in here. These are all identifying features of me, right? So maybe everybody has an electromagnetic specific signature to themselves, which maybe you could track from way up there. So then really there's a funny side story of that too. A book about Osama bin Laden was obviously anti FBI, pro CIA kind of perspective. And they're making fun of this. Guys on the FBI, CIA are stumbling and bumbling around, they can't find him anywhere. And oh, we just missed our opportunity. He was at Saudi Arabia, I think it was one of those get togethers where they'll have their falcons and they're hunting and stuff. He was there and they knew who was there and they were monitoring from a drone or satellite or whatever. And then he just slipped out. We didn't notice him leaving and that's why we didn't get them that year. It's the most ridiculous, preposterous story ever. What do you mean you're surveying like all the time? What do you mean the tape changed? The minute was missing from when Bin Laden left. So we were obviously able to track any individual we want just optically. So now it could track electromagnetically. So we have that technology. How come we have all these missing children? We have no idea where they are. So there's some big block to getting that operational so we could find all these people and arrest all these guys. So it all. Now we're back into the conspiracy side of it.
- [121:06]
B
So what exactly you're saying if this technology around MK Ultra is in the black, along with the electromagnetic signatures that are unique to people, we should be able to like track everybody on the planet or some group should with sort of, potentially.
- [121:25]
A
But we're already tracking with digital currency, satellite imagery. Yeah, Telephones, emails, I mean every single phone call, email is tracked and stored. Right. So it's just another additional part of the horrible surveillance complex.
- [121:42]
B
Yes, I was trying to end on a positive note.
- [121:45]
A
Well, I'm back to the light side here. My father's not that evil guy. So we're just taking mainstream medicine into the 21st century.
- [121:59]
B
We are man.
- [122:00]
A
While dragging our feet on it a bit. And so then another thing would be security. So, yeah, iris recognition. You're the only person with your key. There's levels of it. Why don't we have a electromagnetic scanner that identifies a person? Why don't we have a system where you can detect somebody approaching the building or entering the building electromagnetically?
- [122:26]
B
Let's not do any of that. Let's do the healing thing first.
- [122:29]
A
I'm just saying this is part of the sales pitch, right?
- [122:31]
B
Yeah.
- [122:32]
A
There's so many applications then in agriculture we have hydroponic gardening already, right?
- [122:38]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [122:39]
A
It's not that widely used. We know there's some, like, really stupid, ridiculous people called medicine men, and they like to jump around and chant and wave feathers in the air to help the crops grow. Superstition. There's. If we go back 1500 years in England, there's the maypole dances, which are fertility dances in the spring. So it's all cultures all over the place, Right? Well, ridiculous nonsense, but they're having fun at the party. But what if the medicine man is emitting a specific focused electromagnetic signal, which I say probably coming from the solar plexus, that actually enhances germination. So now we go to the hydroponic garden. We measure what it is that's coming out of the medicine man's body. We imitate that frequency with an emitter. We expose the hydroponic garden to it. We have the control garden. What's the germination rate? It's totally researchable.
- [123:50]
B
Well, like Tesla said, it's all frequency. And Dr. Colin Ross, I really appreciate this. I'm glad we ended on this positive note of fertilizing the world, healing people, because we just covered a lot of dark shit, to be honest.
- [124:04]
A
That's true.
- [124:06]
B
But it's dark stuff that really needs to be exposed. And you've really helped put it to the light. And so I don't really know what you do with this. I think it's just be aware of all the weird malfeasance when it comes to intel on this stuff historically, and. And maybe we can get some good investigative journalism as to what's happening today and really appreciate you coming by, man. That was a lot of fun.
- [124:28]
A
Thanks for the invite.
- [124:29]
B
Absolutely.
- [125:00]
A
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B
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