“I Spent 3 Years With Tall White Aliens At Area 51" -UFO Whistleblower Charles Hall

Summary

American Alchemy – “I Spent 3 Years With Tall White Aliens At Area 51”

With UFO Whistleblower Charles Hall
Host: Jesse Michels
Date: September 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this extraordinary episode of American Alchemy, host Jesse Michels interviews Charles Hall, former Air Force weather observer and author of the Millennial Hospitality series, who claims to have spent years interacting with at least three types of extraterrestrials, most notably the “Tall Whites,” while stationed at Nellis Air Force Base and Area 51 during the 1960s. The conversation traverses Hall’s personal history, his development of the “Hall Photon Theory” (a challenge to Einstein’s relativity), detailed descriptions of alien species and technology, theories on the origins and purpose of Area 51, government and alien collaboration, and the strange involvement of prominent aerospace insiders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Charles Hall’s Story: Life at Area 51

• Background: Hall joined the US Air Force in 1964 and served as a weather observer at the Indian Springs Gunnery Ranges, adjacent to Area 51 (07:49).
• Initial Encounters: He began noticing tall, pale, glowing figures at night, first believing them to be ghosts (01:14), later recognizing repeated, intelligent presence.
• Range 4 Harry Legend: Airmen circulating stories about a fluorescent “radioactive horse”—later revealed to be a formation of Tall Whites moving together (02:00, 16:59).
• Social Integration: Hall was unique among soldiers in building trust with these beings after 41 others returned traumatized or injured (44:20, 137:21).

2. The Tall Whites, Grays, and Nordics (“Norwegians with 24 Teeth”)

Tall Whites

• Habitat: Live in underground facilities north of Indian Springs Valley (01:16; 13:58).
• Appearance/Behavior: Extremely tall, glowing, family-oriented; organized, can disguise as humans (04:07; 110:03).
• Technology: Superior to Grays, can exceed the speed of light, possess defensive/offensive gear (03:53; 09:57; 12:23).
• Interactions: Can communicate through high-frequency sound (beyond human hearing) and use electronic devices for “thought implantation” (15:40-16:25).
• Emotional Distance: Live 10 times longer than humans; friendships with humans are tinged with the perspective of our short lifespans (122:23).

Grays

• Origins: From a planet closer to Earth than that of the Tall Whites (03:53; 09:57).
• Technology: Good but inferior to the Tall Whites; more numerous and responsible for most craft sightings (09:57).

“Norwegians with 24 Teeth” (Nordics)

• Description: “More patient, diplomatic, even benevolent” (04:07).
• Integration: Some can blend among humans unnoticed.

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3. The Hall Photon Theory: Challenging Einstein

• Motivation: Direct observation of craft exceeding light speed during duty convinced Hall that relativity was incomplete (09:57; 12:22).
• Theory: Photons possess more force fields than just electric and magnetic—Einstein failed to account for these, allowing for faster-than-light travel (08:04, 65:02).
• Implications:
  • Gravity is much weaker but can travel faster and farther than light—a design exploited by alien spacecraft (69:51).
  • UFO propulsion depends on smooth, ellipsoidal shapes (like eggs or tic-tacs) to prevent turbulence in overlapping force fields, enabling superluminal speeds (74:42; 76:12).

Notable Quote

“The biggest shock … was discovering that Einstein was wrong about relativity. The craft … could easily exceed the speed of light by many times.”
— Charles Hall (09:57)

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4. UFO Craft, Technology, and Design

• Craft Description: Appeared as large, rounded “egg-shaped” or “tic-tac-like” objects, lacking sharp edges or concave surfaces to minimize force field turbulence (14:19; 77:26).
• Force Fields: When powered, crafts shimmer with a luminous “force field,” becoming indistinct (35:32).
• Materials: Core structure built from ceramic fiber optics—aluminum, silicon dioxide, and semiconductors—wound into coils that channel exotic subatomic particles (87:30, 97:19).
• Engines/Propulsion:
  • Advanced engines use a set of five (sometimes up to nine) subatomic particles; “deep” craft repairable from inside, unlike scout craft (87:30; 82:56).
  • Crash evidence (Roswell) suggests melted fiber optics, not “memory metal” as often described (94:18, 98:59).
• Mind/Machine Interface: Human pilots require electronic adaptation—no psychic control; electronics read thoughts and adapt, unique to each operator (105:50).
• Bathroom Detail: Every craft contains a restroom; myths about shrines onboard are mistaken (102:09, 104:40).

Notable Moment

“You don’t do anything psychically. Everything is electronics—either adjusted to tell what you’re thinking ... or does not work at all.”
— Charles Hall (105:50)

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5. The Area 51 Enigma: “Why Here?”

• Pre-existing Oddities: Hall argues remote test sites like Area 51 were chosen due to already-present “weirdness”: electromagnetic anomalies, Native American legends, and possible interdimensional portals (24:31).
• Government Curiosity: Desert Game Range (set up 1937) suspiciously protected populations of “white” bighorn sheep with anti-aircraft crews, raising the possibility that the area was being secured for reasons besides wildlife conservation (28:46, 31:08).
• Pattern Evidence: Sites of high strangeness—e.g., Skinwalker Ranch, Sedona—often co-located with secret military installations (24:31).

Notable Quote

“If it happened once, it would be random. If it happened twice, a coincidence. But the third time you see it’s there, somebody planned it.”
— Charles Hall (28:46)

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6. Alien-Human Government Collaboration

• Command Awareness: Only a “handful” in the Pentagon were aware of and directly interacted with the Tall Whites; most Air Force personnel thought of the encounters as ghost stories (16:35).
• No Formal Debriefing: Hall was never officially briefed or debriefed, as the Tall Whites could telepathically or electronically read his thoughts—any attempt would risk retaliation (45:44).
• Co-existing Jurisdictions: Tall White base treated as alien embassy; longstanding arrangement since Ice Age arrivals (20:36).

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7. Selection and Psychological Resilience

• Why Charles Hall?: A CIA psychiatrist with “nine PhDs” said Hall unconsciously used 70 of 105 psychological defenses, more than any other candidate. This resilience enabled him to survive mentally intact where 41 before him “returned compromised” (41:06, 137:21).
• Survival Tactics: Hall’s approach was to remain open, non-confrontational, and rational, even rationalizing (to himself) that he was “sleepwalking” or hallucinating during early encounters (25:10; 49:52).

Notable Quote

“He told me … there was 105 different psychological defenses that humans might use … the first time he met me, he was shocked because … he saw me use the first 70 out of the 105.”
— Charles Hall (41:06)

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8. The Timothy Taylor Connection and Insider Intrigue

• Timothy Taylor: Former NASA engineer (alias “Tyler D.” in American Cosmic) and biotech entrepreneur, frequently described as a “gatekeeper” with access to crash retrievals and contacts with UFO experiencers.
• Relationship: Taylor visited the Halls, brought colleagues, and maintained years of contact, but eventually disappeared from communication (127:26–132:13).
• Other Insiders: Connections with alleged “Nassau Group” involved in speculative time travel programs; discussed by the host (125:02).

Notable Moment

“[Taylor] realized … that Charles was the real article … It’s so strange that he would just not contact you after 15 years, though.”
— Marie Therese Hall & Jesse Michels (132:13)

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9. Alien Motives and Human Relations

• Earth as a Pit Stop: Hall believes aliens chose Earth as a strategic “pit stop” for interstellar travel—akin to the U.S. having a base on Guam (114:27).
• Human Usefulness: Tall Whites and Grays are plant-based eaters; have long relied on locals to grow, harvest, and deliver food (116:09).
• Social Distance: Friendships with humans are marked by affectionate curiosity, but our short lives make deep, lasting connections hard from their perspective (122:23).
• Integration Attempts: There were programs for Tall Whites to disguise as humans and blend into scientific circles (110:03).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On first seeing the “horse” formation:

  “There was this giant white radioactive horse that floated around the ranges at night and was fluorescent.”
  — Charles Hall (00:20)

• Describing the Tall Whites’ force fields:

  “If you get too close, the fields will burn you like a microwave.”
  — Charles Hall (32:46)

• On witnessing craft speed:

  “If they are choose to go straight down the line of sight ... they can go seven miles at an average speed of 8,000 to 12,000 miles ... taking more than 15,000 Gs ... 10,000 Gs will liquefy steel.”
  — Charles Hall (35:38–36:15)

• On electronic “thought transmission”:

  “... their electronics also are able to tell what a person is thinking and to put thoughts in the conscious part of their mind by electronic means.”
  — Charles Hall (15:40)

• On policy regarding classified briefings:

  “I can never be briefed. I can never be debriefed ... if a briefing person were to say ... they could tell it by just reading my line, my thoughts. The next thing they would demand is that somebody like that officer be delivered to them ... And he wouldn't live another moment.”
  — Charles Hall (45:43)

• On why he was “chosen”:

  “He said … [with] the first 15 minutes he saw me use the first 70 out of the 105 [defenses]. ... the 41 men that went out before me … their psychological defenses got destroyed.”
  — Charles Hall (41:06–44:20)

• On the emotional aspect:

  “I scared easy but just let me eat and talk for a while, I’ll get over it.”
  — Charles Hall, recalling the Tall Whites’ opinion of him (135:59)

• Radiation Hazards:

  “When you saw [radioactive decay particles] out in the desert, they’d be coming off distances like … [gestures several feet]. Those suits had tremendous power.”
  — Charles Hall (139:45)

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Timestamps to Major Segments

• Charles Hall’s background & early encounters: 00:01–03:53
• Descriptions of alien races: 03:53–04:42
• The “Hall Photon Theory” and challenging Einstein: 08:04–13:43, 64:16–78:16
• UFO technology and design principles: 14:16–15:40, 76:12–87:06
• Government and military base mysteries: 24:31–32:46
• Hall’s selection and psychological endurance: 41:06–49:45, 137:21
• Alien social structure and motives: 109:26–116:23, 122:23
• Insider personalities (Tim Taylor): 123:30–133:41
• Radiation and health risks: 137:32–141:10

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Tone & Language

Jesse Michels maintains an open-minded yet skeptical, probing tone, frequently clarifying for listeners when elements “sound crazy.” Charles Hall’s speech is detailed, technical, and earnest, occasionally self-effacing, with an undercurrent of wonder and trauma.

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Conclusion

This episode presents a whirlwind of first-person testimony, speculative physics, and government conspiracy, all filtered through the unique lens of Charles Hall’s lived experience. Whether you find his claims incredible or unbelievable, his articulation and composure amidst extraordinary tales make for one of the most intriguing accounts of Area 51 and supposed extraterrestrial interaction in recent memory.

Further Reading:

• Charles Hall’s Millennial Hospitality book series
• Emil Marzak’s documentary “Walking with the Tall Whites”
• Diana Pasulka’s American Cosmic

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Note:
All commentary draws strictly from Hall's own statements and experiences, per his explicit policy of not commenting on others’ accounts or classified materials.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

You know, a lot of people I interview have had fleeting interactions. In one off instances, you know, they've been abducted by a gray or they've, you know, interacted with a tall white or a Nordic. You've had years of interactions with all three, but mostly with the tall whites.

[Charles Hall]

There was this giant white radioactive horse that floated around the ranges at night and was fluorescent. The extraterrestrials, when they come, even if they're your good friends, there's always attention because they always come heavily armed.

[Narrator/Host]

Today's amazing guest on American Alchemy has seen the inside of a ufo. He's a firsthand witness to the collaboration between human beings and, and aliens from another world. He's even made an alien laugh. Charles hall was in the Air Force. He was also stationed at the notorious Area 51. While stationed there, he was in regular contact with an alien race that he calls the tall whites for two years. This conversation is absolutely wild.

[Interviewer]

There's a guy at NASA who has a deep interest in these sorts of things, experiencers. His name is Timothy Taylor. Have you heard of him? Him by any chance?

[Marie Therese Hall]

Did you say Timothy Taylor? Yeah, he's a good friend of ours.

[Narrator/Host]

We're going to be talking about aliens going to the bathroom, what powers a UFO and theories of subatomic physics that overturn Einstein. Before we get into it, I want to introduce our guest, Charles Hall. Hall enlisted in the US Air Force in 1964. When he was just 19 years old, he trained as a weather observer, measuring wind speeds, cloud cover and visibility. From 1965 to 1967, he was stationed at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. His job included long, isolated tours at the Indian Springs gunnery ranges. He was out in the desert doing routine weather observations when he started noticing strange figures. Tall, pale, glowing shapes moving at a distance. At first he thought they were ghosts or maybe hallucinations brought on by solitude. Other observers had similar experiences. They called it the legend of range 4 Harry, a ghostly radioactive horse roaming the desert. One observer was even injured in an encounter with something and given a medical discharge. Others flat out refused to return to the post. But hall was very different. Something about who he was meant that he wasn't going to break like the others had. And both his commanders and these tall white beings seemed to take notice. In this isolated crucible, he began slowly interacting with the tall wights. These beings would stalk him and test him, appear suddenly and vanish, slowly gauging his reactions. But he eventually learned this unwritten language. And although there were some painful setbacks, he gradually Developed a trust. He saw family groups, parents, children, elders. He would even end up referring to one of them as something like a brother. Hall claims that the Tall Whites lived in underground facilities at the north end of Indian Springs Valley, complete with hangars for their craft, a story bearing striking resemblance to that of Bob Lazar. He learned about their different flying crafts. And as you'll see in our conversation, what he saw comports with much of what we've learned about UAPs since since 2017. But the tall Whites were not the only alien race described in this story. Hall has talked about the Grays, the small, frail, large headed humanoids that match the classic Roswell image.

[Charles Hall]

The Tall White technology was better than the technology of the Grays. But the Grays come from a planet that's closer than the planet the Tall Whites come from. And the Grays got your front.

[Narrator/Host]

And then there are the Nordics, what you'll hear hall refer to as the Norwegians with the 24 teeth. Hall described them as more patient, more diplomatic, even benevolent. Compared to the Tall Whites, Some of them could pass among humans in the public, sometimes blending into crowds. There is no end to the speculation about how these alien species, who hall suggests have been here for thousands of years, might have interacted with humanity's evolution or social development. If all of this sounds crazy, well, yeah, I don't blame you. And trust me, we've only scratched the surface here. I personally don't even know what to make about this conversation. There are things Charles hall is about to say that feel beyond the pale to me. So that's my primer for you. Without further ado, please welcome this week's amazing American alchemist, Charles Hall. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni. Before we dive into today's episode of American Alchemy, I want to give a quick shout out to our amazing sponsor, Incogni. This is a service that I use to make all of my personal information vanish from the sketchiest corners of the Internet. Here's a fun, but slightly terrifying experiment. Google your full name plus your city. What comes up, old addresses, family members, court records you didn't even know were public, and maybe some bizarre risk profile that makes you sound like a Bond villain. That's all thanks to data brokers, companies you've never heard of quietly buying, selling and reselling your personal information to advertisers, political campaigns, insurers, even scammers. Incogni fights them for you. They contact over 250 data brokers. They demand your data to be deleted and follow up until it's actually gone. And now they've launched something called Custom Removals, part of their unlimited plan. Here's the upgrade. If you find your information on any site anywhere on the Internet, even ones outside of their automated system, you just paste the link into your dashboard and Incogni's privacy team will personally get it taken down and you get unlimited requests. Think sites like Whitepages.com, trellis Law, or Unicourt.com, places you'd never visit, but where your data somehow lives rent free. I personally use it because I don't have the time or quite frankly, the patience to chase down every obscure website that's selling my address for $2.50. And with Incogni, I don't have to. So take your personal data back with Incogni, use Code American Alchemy or go to incogni.com americanalchemy to get 60% off an annual plan. Again, that is 60% off an annual plan. That's over half the normal price off. Online privacy isn't about paranoia. It's about control. And this is one of the easiest ways to get some of that control back. So don't put it off. Take care of your Internet hygiene. Now let's get back into this crazy episode.

[Interviewer]

I am here with Charles Hall. It's an honor to have you. It's been a long time coming. You're the subject of an amazing documentary by Emil Marzak called Walking with the Tall Whites. But you've also written a series of amazing books called Millennial Hospitality. You have six volumes. There's six volumes, six volumes at this point. And you've interacted with, you know, a lot of people I interview have had fleeting interactions. In one off instances, you know, they've been abducted by a gray or they've, you know, interacted with a tall white or a Nordic. You've had years of interactions with all three, but mostly with the tall whites. And I really want to dive into that. But first I want to talk about your Hall Photon theory. You believe that Einstein is wrong and has limited physics, stagnated it for the last century. And so let's get into that.

[Charles Hall]

I'm quite certain Einstein was wrong. And I've also written books entitled Beyond Relativity. And I've done a rumble video entitled Mirage Galaxies and Edges in Space. Edges are spelled with capital letters because it's a zone. And I've also done a second film with Emil Marsak which discusses that called Walking with the Tall Aftermath. And that's all copyrighted Hall Photon Theory. I first copyrighted hall photon theory in 1997, and I'm quite certain that there are many more particles, subatomic particles, and many more types of force fields which exist in the real world. And that's why relativity is not correct, because relativity doesn't take those into account.

[Interviewer]

And for context for the audience. You are extremely smart. You have a master's degree in nuclear physics, and you scored off the charts on one of these math tests. Before joining the Army, I was in.

[Charles Hall]

The Air Force, and what you say is correct. I got one wrong out of 500 on the air Force math ability test. It was the one I was marking as. I was marking the correct answer as the clock had sounded and they were ripping the answer sheet from my cold hands. They'd just given me 10 more seconds. I'd have got them all.

[Interviewer]

That's amazing. But you told me off Air, that what inspired this Hall Photon Theory was you actually seeing a craft and realizing it could go faster than light. So you were stationed at Area 51?

[Charles Hall]

That's correct. Well, I was a weather observer in the US Air Force, and I was stationed at Nellis Air Force Base from March of 1965 until May of 1967. And Nellis is in charge of the gunnery ranges at Indian sp, And I was a duty weather observer at Indian Springs. Area 51 is just in the 1965 was just the entry area to the areas, and the areas went up to number 60, and I've been in all of them. The areas were assembled into lands. One, the most famous land was Dreamland. Area 51 was not actually Dreamland itself. It was merely Groom Lake. Dreamland was Area 53 and 54, which was the northern half of Indian Springs Valley, and then the valley to the east, Dogbone Valley, and part of the valley to the west, including French Peak. The biggest shock was not that extraterrestrials were here on Earth and had been ever since at least the Ice Age. The biggest shock shock that I felt was discovering that Einstein was wrong about relativity. The craft that the tall Whites and the Grays came in, the Roswell Grays came in, could easily exceed the speed of light by many times. The Tall White technology was better than the technology of the Grays. But the Grays come from a planet that's closer than the planet the Tall Whites come from, and the Grays got here first. So I would guess that 90% of the time that you see an actual extraterrestrial craft, it's one of the Gray craft, and about 10% of the time it's one of the tall white craft and the grays are much more numerous. For that reason, I remember the shock when I really truly understood that Einstein was wrong about relativity. I was out at range three as the duty weather observer.

[Interviewer]

What year is this?

[Charles Hall]

And this was in the mid-1960s. This was like in 1965, late summer. And there was a six week or two month period where I was certain that the tall white individuals who identified themselves as the teacher and range four Harry and tour guide, who are my good friends, that they had taken a vacation or a business trip somewhere and that they weren't on this planet and that they had gone to some other inhabited planet orbiting some other star. A reasonable guess would have been the star Arcturus or a star near Arcturus. Then they came back. I believe they'd been on a business trip, vacation type trip. Now, Arcturus is 36 light years away and the nearest star, Alpha Centauri, is almost four light years away. It's a group of three stars. And to go anywhere and come back to another star, the craft you were on had to travel quite a few times faster than the speed of light. Like 44 times or something, minimum, just to go there and come back in two months.

[Interviewer]

I think a lot of people in the audience might hear that they're coming back and forth from, you know, a star system that is 36 light years away and want to know some core details as to what you are seeing. Do you see crafts coming in?

[Charles Hall]

And what did the crafts schedule on the night of the. On the night of the full moon or a few days before or a few days after. But their base at the north end of Indian Spring, at Indian Springs, they were using Dog Bone Lake as their landing field.

[Interviewer]

What do the crafts look like?

[Charles Hall]

Like tic tacs.

[Interviewer]

Like Tic tacs?

[Charles Hall]

Yeah, like. Like eggs, like white eggs. They were egg shaped.

[Interviewer]

Are they of the kind of, you know, David Fravor 2004, the Nimitz sighting, where you have a tic Tac? Or was it like the egg that Jake Barber or, you know, Socorro, New Mexico, 64, you know, those are two different or both shapes.

[Charles Hall]

When I first saw him, it reminded me the most of like a large version of the engine of a passenger train, only with everything rounded like an egg. There are no sharp edges, no sharp protrusions, just smooth and round, like a round. It was ellipsoidal. Okay.

[Interviewer]

Any hieroglyphics or symbols?

[Charles Hall]

Not on the outside when you went on. Their writing is Hieroglyphics, more so they're writing, if you didn't know, Egyptian hieroglyphics. Some. A couple of the guys that were with me who had seen them thought that they were ancient Egyptians who had somehow or another gotten into Indian Springs Valley and trapped there and were still using their own hieroglyphics.

[Interviewer]

Who thought that?

[Charles Hall]

A couple of the other range men. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Charles Hall]

And they can stand right there in front of you. I speak from direct experience. And if they feel like talking to each other using sounds too high for a human to hear, they'll do so. And if you didn't know better, you'd think they were able to do telepathy because they'll be sitting there in total silence and want to laugh and then they'll be going through a complete conversation. And of course, their electronics also are able to tell what a person is thinking and to put thoughts in the conscious part of their mind by electronic means.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think that?

[Charles Hall]

From direct experience. Okay.

[Interviewer]

Did they have a device that could implant thoughts?

[Charles Hall]

Yeah, only it wasn't a big device that they had to carry in their hands. It was one that they'd carry like on a helmet or whatever, you know.

[Interviewer]

And what's the broader context here? Are you sort of this rogue Air Force rangeman or do the other rangemen and superiors, are they aware of this ET presence coexisting alongside you guys at this testing complex? And is, is it sort of a. There's, there's just this kind of awareness that there's this cohabitation there.

[Charles Hall]

The Pentagon had a tiny handful of people that knew there that interacted with them. The range maintenance men. A few knew they were there, but most of them just knew about the legend of Range four Harry. The range. The legend of Range four Harry was that there was this giant white radioactive horse that floated around the ranges at night and was fluorescent and supposedly was a horse that had gotten too close to the bomb blast at Yucca Platz. And you'd see him on warm summer nights from a distance. And you could stay, but you needed to stay away from him. And he was called Range 4 Harry. Now there was an actual tall white guy with the name Range for Harry. And the tall whites, when they were wearing their protective suits, could form up into a high speed horse formation. Like if there were a typical one is if there were two women, a couple, three kids, children and two men, the two women would be in front and bend over at the waist and bend forward and put their arms out like that. Some usually and they would be the front of the horse. And then the three children would. Whose. Remember their suits. The technology of them allowed them to float 9 or 10 inches off the ground. They could float a lot higher if they wanted to, but they had to balance themselves. And the children would float. Whose suits were a slightly different design, would float higher so that they were floating at about the waist level. So you'd have the two women in front, then the three children, and then at the back you'd have the two men who had bigger suits and more powerful packs. And they would bend over, over the children. So if you saw them when they were out in the desert, say a quarter mile away, when they all turned on their suits, the force fields from around those suits merged into one. And I speak from direct experience. You would swear there was a giant white floating horse coming at you from out in the desert. Now, that horse could. When they were in that formation, the reason I call it the high speed horse formation is because when they. I personally watched them when they wanted to go somewhere when they were out hiking, say, like, and they wanted to go somewhere fast, they could form up into that formation and they could reach speeds of 100 miles an hour over the desert by floating up above the ground and just going, zoom. I used to watch them play at the runways at Indian Springs Air Base on summer nights, as the way tobogganists did, where they would pretend they were airplanes taking off. And then when they got to the end, they would lift up and go over the fence around the Runway and go out in the desert and turn around and pretend they were airplanes doing touch and goes.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think they were allowed to operate independently on kind of American military grounds did so the superiors kind.

[Charles Hall]

Of the base for them was like a foreign embassy and. And they've been here since the Ice age.

[Interviewer]

Do you think it was the nuclear testing that, like, created some sort of wheeler tunnel or something that they traveled through? Or, like, why there? Why do you think they. They set up shop there?

[Charles Hall]

Consider I'm certain that the Grays got here first and they were here before the last ice age, and that the tall whites got here second, and they were here by at least the middle of the last ice age. And the Norwegians with 24 teeth got here towards the end of the last ice age. The tall whites have the best technology. The Grays have really good technology. The Norwegians are just barely able to travel in space and make it here. When you look at the bases and where the tall whites and the Grays Are you have to look at the way they were in the Ice Age. There's a place out in the deserts that I was in, it's out in one of the most desolate sections of the western deserts that you can imagine. There's a L shaped valley with mountains on both desert mountains on both sides. And then there's a valley on the northern side. But in the southern side, the valley is an L shaped valley. And there's a dry lake bed, a small dry lake bed on the southern side, and a huge amphitheater type set of ground that the Grays farmed during the Ice Age. And in the mountain on the west, they'd cut 13 tunnels in the mountain on the west and they used them as a granary. And the first one on the north was larger than the others, and it was large enough for their deep spacecraft to come in and pick up grain. And the 13th one overlooked the fields. And at the top of the L shaped valley and at the bottom of the L shaped valley, the mountains form a constriction. So if you were a, a gray teenager with a appropriate weapon and you were sitting there, you could monitor both entrances. And so if any Ice Age animals came in to eat the grain, because they're plant eaters, the tall whites and the grays do not eat meat. They're only plant eaters. You could keep them out and protect. And protect, keep them from eating your food. And when you ask and when you looked at the valley on the west, you could see the ancient water lines from how high the lake had been during different stages of the Ice Age. Now, central Nevada was never glaciated. It was just that in the Ice Age because the weather was different, it rained lots and lots of like it does in Kentucky. And so those lake beds were not glacial lakes, they weren't glacial carved, they were poluvial lakes, the Latin word for rain. And therefore the bottom, those lake beds were flat and the land leading into them were perfect places to farm. And what you were looking at was a granary, a farm that the Grays used during the Ice Age.

[Interviewer]

So it sounds like there are all these unique reasons as to as an extraterrestrial presence, you'd set up shop in that area.

[Narrator/Host]

This is a really interesting point, something I kept coming back to while preparing for this conversation was this strange possibility of what if Area 51's weirdness didn't start because it's a military base? What if the base was put there because of a pre existing weirdness in the region? As Charles Points out the broader pattern is hard to ignore. Many of the most restricted military ranges and test sites sit in the same kind of landscapes. Remote deserts, mountain valleys and high plains. And sometimes Native American burial grounds. Sure, there are practical reasons for this when it comes to testing weapons and spy planes. But often these places were tied up in UFO sightings. Cryptid creatures, electromagnetic anomalies. Anomalies before military bases were even placed on them. Many were even seen to be portals to other dimensions. Maybe it isn't just a coincidence. Maybe the military wasn't just picking up empty land, but claiming ground that was very unusual. To put it bluntly, maybe military bases often like to co locate themselves with very strange paranormal areas. Skinwalker Ranch in northeastern Utah is perhaps the most public example. I've been there myself, and you've no doubt heard the stories. It's probably the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot in the world, at least on the civil side. Multiple UFO sightings, glowing orbs, cattle mutilations, and even reports of orange portals opening up in the air. But it also has its former military connections. There was a US army outpost in the region in the 19th century, and today it sits not far from Dugway proving grounds. In the 2000s, billionaire and government contractor Robert Bigelow received Pentagon funding through the OSAP program to research the ranch. Why, you might ask. Well, folklore from the Utah tribe had already marked the land as cursed, prowled by shapeshifters. That was long before the Pentagon made it a research site. And if you zoom out, the geography is interesting too. You can draw a rough triangle between Area 51, Skinwalker Ranch and Roswell. Other paranormal hotspots with co located military activity exist all over the United States. For example, Sedona, Arizona. Local legends speak of tunnels and gateways hidden in the cliffs where star people pass through shimmering portals. The Bradshaw Ranch there became famous for UFO sight sightings investigated not long ago by Ross Coulthard. Eventually, the site was taken over by the US Government, a move that raised some eyebrows. Why seize a random rural property in Arizona unless there was something they felt needed securing? To this day, locals still report black helicopters circling overhead and interference with drones near the area. It fits the pattern. Land fenced off not just for practical reasons, but because of whatever it is said to be in the land itself. Land that seems full of electromagnetic anomalies and perhaps the same tunnels and land that are occupied by the tall whites. And that brings us back to Nevada. It's easy to Forget that Area 51 isn't just one base. It's part of a vast test range anchored by Nellis, swallowing up thousands of square miles of desert. Charles gets into this this in just a moment. But the history of how this whole area ended up getting claimed by the government doesn't quite add up. Especially when it became a herd of desert sheep suddenly becoming an issue of national security. And it begs the very important question, how much of this pattern extends overseas? Look at where the United States has planted some of its overseas bases. Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. Pine Gas Gap in Outback Australia. Sprawling compounds in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of these sites already had their own unusual reputations amongst locals. Or maybe some other uses to our alien visitors from out of town.

[Interviewer]

Do you think it's a coincidence then that you get Area 51 and some of the most top secret advanced R and D when it comes to the American military co located on that area?

[Charles Hall]

I subscribe to the Marine Corps theory. If it happened once, it would be a coincidence. If it happened twice, I'm sorry, if it was happened once it would be random. If it happened twice it would be a coincidence. But the third time you see it's there. Somebody planned it. Okay? Yeah. Now remember what else is out there? The Desert Game Range National Park. Okay? Now the Desert Game Range was set up in the time of Franklin D. Roosevelt. Okay? It was what I talk about in my book. And it was like 1935 or 1937. For some reason FDR just got up all by himself. And after talking with a single army colonel, Army Air Force colonel decided that the desert bighorn sheep who live in the mountains like Sheep Peak for which it's named and the mountains to the east must be an endangered species. You say wait a Moment, this is 1937, though I didn't realize we had endangered species till 1970 or something. This was 1937 and by executive order said we got to make that a protected area to protect the desert. Bighorn sheep, they're white. And if you're out there hiking and you see something in the words of the park rangers that looks like a human looking at you from over the sagebrush, which may be as tall as six feet, don't look back, especially if it looks like a woman with children because the bighorn sheep don't like that, they'll attack you. Just look away and walk away. And in 1937, in order to protect the sheep and that we're talking before World War II, Franklin Roosevelt and the Army Air Force decided that they would station a battalion of anti aircraft guns with live ammo to protect it. Okay. So it wouldn't be subject to Japanese air attack.

[Interviewer]

And it was all that specific area.

[Charles Hall]

In that specific area. Right. That was the desert big. Before there was an Area 51, before there was a Nellis gunnery range, before there were Wizard Camp Mercury or anything, there was the desert Southwest game range.

[Interviewer]

So that's the first round.

[Charles Hall]

And you say that. So the sheep are being protected by anti aircraft crews that have live ammo and they're open to fire at any airplane that goes across there in 1937. And FDR just said, well, I want the sheep to be safe. And that's why it's called Sheep Peak. And you say when you look that she peak seems like a pretty easy place to climb. Why is it that the first time it is a matter of record that it was climbed, that anyone climbed it was 1970. Okay. You say, well, we didn't. We did Mount Everest before that. Right.

[Interviewer]

Well, it sounds like, you know, protecting sheep with, you know, anti aircraft technology, the most advanced at the time.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah, we were. It seems like if you'd fire a few live rounds, wouldn't you kind of scare them a little bit? Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So based on your rule, if it's like, you know, fool me once, okay, fool me twice, fine. Fool me three times. You know, it's a. That's sort of a, you know, that's not a coincidence anymore. What's the second time? Is there a second time before Area 51, which gets set up in the 50s, that suspicious military or covert activity occurs in the region that might have to do with the ET presence.

[Charles Hall]

Well, remember how good their technology is, the technology of the whites and the technology of the Grays. And I do not exaggerate, I speak from direct experience when you say if they came here in the Ice age and in order to. And they're plant eaters and in order to get a little help with harvesting grain and doing manual labor and things like that, there's nobody out in Nevada. Where would they get that from? Remember how good their technology is? And I speak from direct experience. If they wanted to use the scout craft, which is, oh, the tall white scout craft or the gray scout craft, which I have both of which I've personally seen, and in the time I've been talking, if they wanted to say, lift off from the backyard and go to the moon and circumnavigate the moon to check up on what's going on on the far side of the moon and return and land in the backyard right here, they would have already done so that's how good their technology is. One of the things I personally watched them do from a distance, because if you get too close, the fields will burn you like a microwave. But like from a distance of say, like two and a half, three miles was to lift. Was to go onto the scout craft and sit down in the seats. No seat belts or anything, just chairs like this. And lift. Power up. And power up the. Not the outer coils, but just the bottom and control coils. And lift off. They were floating perhaps as far off the desert or above the sagebrush as the height the camera is. And then take a few seconds, like 30 seconds to power up completely the outer coils. It takes a few seconds to do so. When they do so, before they do so, the craft looks the way you're expecting. If you saw a helicopter out there, you'd see the actual metal of the helicopter. But after they've powered up, they just look real fuzzy white, like a Tic tac. Because they're surrounded with force fields. You no longer see the actual metal. You just see the force field and the way it's fuzzing over light and interacting with it. Once they're powered up, they're ready for high speed maneuvers.

[Interviewer]

Let's get in here.

[Charles Hall]

If they are choose to go straight down the line of sight. They can go seven miles at an average speed of 8,000 to 12,000 miles per and miles an hour. Stop, power down and set down. And in the process, they would have taken more than 15,000 GS starting and 15,000 GS stopping. Just sitting there in the room like this. And in case you're wondering how much that is, 10,000 G's will liquefy. Steel.

[Interviewer]

What's the. Is the speed of light is like 86,000 miles per hour.

[Charles Hall]

186,000.

[Interviewer]

186,000. Okay.

[Charles Hall]

Miles per second.

[Interviewer]

Miles per second.

[Charles Hall]

And they can do so if they're.

[Interviewer]

Going 8 to 10,000 miles per hour, there's still massive difference between that and.

[Charles Hall]

They'Re not even in low gear. They're not even in low gear.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, not even in low gear.

[Charles Hall]

Wow. If they do that and they choose to go sideways, they'll go side. They'll just seem to blink out. You'll be looking there and they'll just seem to disappear before your eyes because they will have accelerated and moved to the side so fast your eyes can't follow. I speak from direct experience. And if you're looking up, straight up Indian Springs Valley and they choose to pop over to Dogbone Valley and come down and then come in one of the northern passes to see what you're doing. It'll look like they just blinked out there and magically reappeared over there less than a second or two later. If they really in the hands of a skilled pilot, a lot of people, people who still believe in Einstein, will mistakenly say they went to another dimension. Really, they haven't. They've done it. If you were in the way, the craft would run into you. There is no such thing as wormholes or warping space and time. What you're warping isn't space and time. You're interacting with other force fields that all matter has. And, you know, the same way that you might have an electric field of different shapes or a magnetic field of different shapes, but time never slows down. Time never runs in reverse. Time is just time. It always goes forward.

[Interviewer]

Have you ever flown in a craft?

[Charles Hall]

Yes. Yeah, a couple of times I did.

[Interviewer]

What was that like?

[Charles Hall]

Well, I was in the cargo hold at the time because there was, as I describe in my books, the day after, I thought I'd broken my kneecap. And then it healed up. There was the next morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at. Up at area 54F53 to see if I needed a surgery on my knee.

[Interviewer]

And it was the tall whites.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah. Only. And when I got up there, the American generals were there and medical people were up there too. And I didn't. I just bruised it and. But they had to. The tall whites had to prove to the Americans that they were telling them they're correct or wanted to prove that. That. And so they came down and grabbed me and put me in the hold of the car cargo shop. And I still remember that. The trip up there and the trip back.

[Interviewer]

Where did they go? Did you leave?

[Charles Hall]

No, they just. They just left. They just lifted off and we just went gently up the valley, perhaps 100ft off the ground. And I remember flying around range fours and made the turn around range four and then going up the valley to the. They were going to the scout craft, the back entrance to their scout craft hangar. And the door was open. We went in there and then there was a whole bunch of them in there. But there were also an American general and some American medical people and the six sergeants, that was chief master sergeants that were the human guards for the human generals and the teacher and range for Harry. And it was just like sitting here in a chair, only in the cargo hold. And they didn't do it as they didn't totally power up because they didn't have to. And it was like sitting here in the chair and having the whole room just be lifted up and taken and come back. And it was remarkably unremarkable. The important part was that they thought they'd electronically hypnotized me. But their equipment doesn't work if you're sick or if you're angry or if you're really tired. And since I was. Even though my knee was not broken, I was still experiencing some pain. You know, I was still tender. It meant that the way my thoughts. The blood flow in the brain was, was somewhat different than the way it would normally be. And so therefore, when you use the electronic hypnotism on me, that would normally have worked when I was ordinary, if I was healthy and well rested. It didn't quite do the job.

[Interviewer]

It's almost like anesthesia that doesn't work during surgery or something.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Still awake.

[Charles Hall]

So.

[Interviewer]

Speaking of.

[Charles Hall]

So I got to remember it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charles Hall]

Range for. Harry knew that was the case, but that was all he could do. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think they chose you for all of this? Why do you think you were sort of picked to be endowed with this knowledge?

[Charles Hall]

One time I asked a different person who was one of the top. Identified himself as one of the top three psychiatrists at the CIA. One of the time I asked them why they chose me. Okay. Because I said I thought there were lots of men that were better at going out in the desert and surviving and doing fixing trucks and so on than myself. A lot of weather observers with more experience and so on than me. And he told me the following. He said that. And he had, like, nine PhDs hanging on the wall for different facets of psychiatry. And he was a very nice guy. He was surprisingly young, like in his 30s. He said that when he studied psychiatry, he was told that there was 105 different psychological defenses that humans might use. The most famous is Whistling in the Dark. Okay. He said that most humans only use one or two at the most. That one of the projects that he and the others usually did was trying to train colonels and generals on how to have more psychological defenses. They were hoping to get generals to use three or they always wanted them to use three. They were hoping they could get them to use four or five. This is of the 105. And he said that he had told his son, the other guys that were with him, psychiatrists, that some of the. There were a couple of. There were some generals he was trying to train. He thought he was going to get them to learn seven and he couldn't. They were going to hang in there at three. He said that the first time he met me, he was shocked because in the first 15 minutes he saw me use the first 70 out of the 105. And he was a certain. I could use the other hundred. The other. The remainder of the 105. And you can see it in my books. He said the 41 men that went out before me who all came back compromised, and some of them burned. He said the problem they had, in his opinion, was that they recognized what they were up against or something of what they were up against before they understood how they were going to. Had decided how they were going to react. And he said that. And therefore what happened was in just the first encounter, their psychological defenses got destroyed. And he said that the reason they sent me. He said, if there ever was a person to send, it would be you. He said it's because they'll never lay a glove on you. They'll never. That, you know, that no matter what happens, you know, you have a defense for it. Okay?

[Interviewer]

And they had evaluated that prior to sending you out to commune with the E.T.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah, they'll let the. They have a. You know, and you can see it in there. And my. There was a time when I thought that the extraterrestrials. The extraterrestrial lady. I was looking at that I was hallucinating. And I was kind of surprised because I was kind of thinking that if I was going to hallucinate, if I was alone out in the desert, I was young and single, that if I was going to hallucinate that it would be more like a Las Vegas showgirl. And she wasn't, you know. And I thought, my God, how sick am I? I'm not even know, see? And she was laughing, she. Because she could tell that I was thinking because of her electronic equipment, you see? See? And there was a time when I was. There was a time when I thought that it. That I must be short on vitamins. When they would come into my barracks at Indian Springs, and I would get up and I would see the children playing, and I thought, golly, I knew I should have drank more milk. It's for supper. I must be short on vitamins and milk. And so I would take more vitamins, and they would still keep. There was a time.

[Interviewer]

But you're also debriefing with generals who are admitting that this is a phenomena that they're aware of. And that they're kind of working alongside these ETs.

[Charles Hall]

Is that right? No, I'm never debriefed.

[Interviewer]

You're never debriefed?

[Charles Hall]

I'm never briefed. I'm never debriefed. But you're, aren't you? Not only. That's not an accent. My orders are I can never be briefed. I can never be debriefed. And the reason is very simple. Because the tall whites, like the teacher, can tell what a person is thinking, even if they're not talking. Well, if you're debriefed, and they're very touchy about their children, if a briefing person were to say, what kind of mother is the teacher? You know, how does she treat her little girl? I mean, she was lost in the sagebrush and you saved her life. How did they let that happen? See, then they wouldn't have to ask me to tell them about it. See, they could tell it by just reading my line, my thoughts. The next thing they would demand is that somebody like that officer be delivered to them out in the desert. And he wouldn't live another moment. Okay. Yeah. And she. I wouldn't have to say anything or do anything or say else because she could just tell, oh, yeah, I read Charlie. And I see, that happened. So when I say that no one could ever ask me questions, I could, could never be debriefed. Nothing I would do would ever be classified like no one could. I mean, they couldn't even inspect me if they wanted to talk to me. They physically had to come out to the parking lot of the chow hall at Indian Springs between noon and 12:30 and I would meet them there if I felt like meeting them or if I didn't, then they would just end. Before they went out, they would have to check in with the base commander at Nellis. And when they came back, they had to go directly from checking on base to the base command and say, yeah, I looked healthy, and so on, and I could. And they couldn't come out and inspect my barracks or see anything.

[Interviewer]

Have you. You mentioned the CIA psychiatrist who said that you had all these psychological defenses and that sort of allowed you to enter into relations with the ets? It allowed me and come back in time.

[Charles Hall]

No, it allowed me to protect my thoughts, the person I am, before admitting to myself they are real and I know what I'm going to do.

[Interviewer]

Have you ever heard the name Kit Green? Is that familiar to you?

[Charles Hall]

No, doesn't ring a bell. But I probably heard him. But see, like, see, see, like like, the first thing I agreed. The first agreement I made with them was after realizing they were real, that I asked him that whenever they came around me, that they talked between themselves, if they were talking between themselves or with me in a way that I could hear, to speak English, because it frightened me if they were talking between themselves. And it sometimes sounded like horse winnings or bird recalls. And they agreed. And then the second one was that if I saw them out in the desert, like if I came over a rise and there was one sitting on a rock, I understood that it was easy for me to sneak up on them behind him and surprise them. And I didn't want to do that. I would just stop where I was and stand where I was and sing a song and let them know I was there. And then if they wanted to come closer, I would just stand there and they could walk up towards me and stop whenever they wanted to. I wouldn't pursue. I wouldn't close the gap. And if they got too close to me so that it. I started feeling intimidated, I would start backing away and they would stop. And then when we had decided how far apart we were going to be physically, then we could communicate.

[Interviewer]

Your wife, Marie Therese, mentioned that you actually were sent out initially.

[Charles Hall]

Initially, I was supposed to go from after doing my basic training at Lackland. Then I was put in pat standing. You know, that was airmen, Airmen waiting, their security clearance. Okay. And those airmen that were going to get a security clearance and be sent to San Angels, Texas, for Security School 101, we're supposed to wait there for like three weeks or so. Okay. Now, the security clearance you're waiting for is whatever the government decides to give you, but it's supposed to be the top secret clearance. Okay? Now, the secure. Whether the security training, the people who are sent to San Angels, Texas, are waiting to get their orders to San Angels, Texas. However, in my case, they issue two sets of orders. The real ones to San Angels, Texas, and the COVID orders to the weather Training School at Churnute Air Force Base, Illinois. The idea is that the captain who is in charge of those guys, who has a safe for classified material that's locked. This is 1965. Times have all changed since then. He's the one that will give out my order. The day sergeant can give out all the rest of the orders. Okay? Yeah, because the day sergeant, because my clearance is going to be a higher clearance than theirs. Well, the Friday that they came in, the captain is off playing golf. There's a military officer. He's supposed to Be on duty. He's off playing golf and left the sergeant in commission land. The sergeant does not have the clearance to know about my orders. So when the clearance comes, the orders come in for everybody else. And I'm. We've all. We were all in the same class together at boot camp. I think a mistake has been made. Okay, they get their orders. I go in with them. There's no orders. I say, well, because my cover orders are in a different location than their orders. But they're not locked up up, see, they're just in the temporary outbox. Well, I asked the sergeant, I got no orders, are not going to weather school too. So the sergeant goes and gets those orders and says, oh, yeah, here's your orders and hands them to me to go to weather training school. So I go out and I get on the bus. You know, I got my stuff packed. Now, my drill sergeant had made a very special point. He said, anytime you do anything in the military, keep two copies of your orders because you can't trust your office. Genius, right? I keep two copies, right. Okay. So I get in the bus. I'm not on the travel mass, but I got orders. So what? So they throw me on the airplane and they send me to shoot at Air Force Base, Illinois. If you can't shoot them, Chinute them, that place. Okay, well, I'm in the base and everybody else is getting paid. And I'm at weather school and I'm the best student in the class. And after like six weeks, I still haven't been paid. And so I go and I ask the command, my immediate commander, can I go see, I'm not getting paid. He sends me over to the base payroll offices and they look at their records and they're panicky. You're on this base. And they send me back to weather school. I go back to weather school and two MP air policemen and a dog come in and grab me and march me over to the base commander's office. I'm a little terrified. And the base commander says, airman hall, if you have a copy of your orders showing you that you're supposed to be on this space, then you're going to be a happy man. And whoever gave you the orders is not going to be very happy. But if you don't have a copy of the orders, the man who gave them to you is going to be a happy man. And you're not going to be a soldier. You're not going to be a very happy soldier because the generals tell me you're too valuable A man to be wasted at this school. I had two copies in my hall. I said, thank you, Sergeant. Master Sergeant Peoples. I graced his hand. I said, you need another one? I can copy this, right? I was a happy man. They said, well decide what to do, right? So they'd been looking for me at San Angels, Texas for six weeks. The FBI had been looking for me at my house in London. Nobody had found me. I go back and the sergeant comes out and says, you're going. Going to Nellis. Okay.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Wow.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah. They gave me the usual wish list. When you have your. When you finish weather school, name three places you'd like to go. I said, Germany, England and March. Air Force Base, Los Angeles. And I said, no, you're going to Nellis. Okay.

[Interviewer]

How soon after you're stationed at Nellis do you encounter this abandoned weather station and meet your first tall white.

[Charles Hall]

Well, the first time that I heard Jellyville whites at Nellis was at my very first duty session at Nellis with another airman, which I describe in my book. Okay. He was the airman that had been on leave for several weeks because he claimed the Nellis weather station was haunted. And it was the. It's not the one you day. It was the old one that was the northeast end of the base operations building. The base operations building was a very nice building for its day, as was the weather station. I described it in my book and it had something very important. It was this military version of an airport terminal, and it had something very important. It had clean restroom. The next clean restroom was a mile away in a group of barracks they were still building. To get to another clean restroom, you had to go a mile and a half away. Okay. He claimed that when he was working night graveyard and he was in his. He had been in its military. He was on his fourth year. That he. The previous winner that. That he thought ghosts, you and I would say a group of five tall white aliens had come in off the Runway, off the tarmac, unlocking the padded. The glass doors between the base operations. The interior, the base operations building, the tarmac. Because one of the force fields will make every piece of material repel every other piece of material and just pop every lock open. And that when he came in, there was one waiting outside standing guard, one holding the door open or. And one. And then that's two men and then three women, one holding open the door to the bath or to the bathroom, another one inside holding, helping them hold open the door to the bathroom while the third one was using the ladies restroom. And that they were rotating so that they'd come in to use the restroom. He didn't. He. Although he described them doing that, that he didn't appreciate what he was describing. He thought they were ghosts. He panicked immediately and started screaming, Locked himself in the doorway and in the. And called the Basil Air police, only to discover that the Nellis BAS commander said, no, the air police cannot come beyond the road junction a mile away. He's on his own. Okay. Now, I know from firsthand experience that he was telling the truth. Because there came a day when I had worked, while I was working graveyard, actually a whole bunch of days on Sunday night when everything was empty when that would happen. And the reason that they came was because they're just like us. The bathroom that was a mile down, which the mechanics down in that hangar, airport hangar, thought was. Was haunted, was occasionally visited by tall white men who had to go to the bathroom. And it was a mess, never cleaned. Okay? And if you were all with two men and three women who wanted a clean bathroom, and the one the mile and a half down was too far and wasn't suitable, and you said, where do we want to go to the bathroom? You'd say, I know just the place. It's the one in the base ops. And on Sunday night, there's nobody around. There's the weather observer. And he's usually sleeping at night like he should. Okay, he's not supposed to, but usually they did. Actually, that was a great place to sleep on. I did myself didn't. But I had too much fun reading books and stuff. And so. And even. And the guy that I was, he was my OJT instructor. He also claimed that on a different night when he was in there, that one of them came and peeked at him around the corner and said, don't worry, the women just want to use the restroom. He screamed and called the base of the police again. And they wouldn't come. And he had a nervous breakdown. So, you know, and that happened to me. Me, I said, yeah, don't forget the candy bar machine. You know, you guys may be hungry, right? And that's what psychological defenses do for you. You see, that's a difference. But that's the first one. He told me the story, but I didn't actually see the tall whites on that night. Then a few nights later, when he had been given an honorable discharge because the Pentagon insisted that he and I alone in. On Sunday night, alone in the weather station together, work at least one duty shift, and then he would be given an Honorable discharge of Section 8, which he was then when I was with my next duty shift, my next OJT instructor and he was working a double shift. I was working swing shift when I came left at midnight. And I was trying to hurry to get to the base, up to the base chow hall. As I was walking back the mile or so to my barracks, one of the new ones being built, I would end up I when I turned around, following me was the tall white girl that the 12 year old. And I was about a quarter mile down from the base, up from the weather station and back by the white elephant was the teacher and two bridge for Harry and a other tall white guard happily watching me from a distance. And all she was doing was just following me intentionally showing herself. At the time I When you talk about what good are psychological defenses at the time I couldn't believe my eyes, even though they matched what the guy had told me just a few days before. I decided that because I was tone tired, I must be sleepwalking. And I said, well, gee, I thought if you slept, I didn't realize that you could actually walk and see things when you were sleepwalking. And so I turned and I tried, continued walking. I expected to hurry and get to my barracks before I had a brain stroke or something and collapsed. And I thought and I turned around and after going a few steps and there she was, she still followed me. And I had been reading a book on the Titanic, which I can talk about later. And in the Titanic it described a group of angels who came in a craft, one of the lifeboats and landed on the ledge of one of the icebergs and dropped wreaths for people in the water to use as life preservers, which didn't work. And how one of the angels was good at floating out over the water and dropping her hands. And when I turned around and I was just watching her, she smiled, that girl. She lifted up, turned on she her turned up the power on her suit, lifted up a little bit further till the top of her feet were about as far off the ground as the top, not as tight, almost the top of that chair. Chair flew over beside the sidewalk which was over the grass and saw and went over the grass a little bit and saw on the grass something that a piece of wrapper or perhaps a quarter or something that interested her. And with her feet still in the air bent, lowered her shoulders, reached down on the graft and picked it up, assuming the very same position that was described in the book on the Titanic that I had previously Read like that night or two nights before, described by the lady in the survivor of the lifeboat that was picked up by the Carpathia, as described in the book that I was reading. And it like, she was the very same girl. And considering that the tall whites live 600, 800 years, 10 times longer than we do, she could have been okay. And when I looked at at it, I was stunned. And I still didn't make the association between those people and extraterrestrials. That's what psychological defenses do for you. And I decided that I must just be sleepwalking or there must be something with me mentally. And I went home and I went back to my barracks and. And life continued.

[Interviewer]

So let's get into the whole photon theory because. And just to set this up for the audience, Also in the 30s, in 1935, Einstein, Rosen, Podolsky come up with their sort of spooky action at a distance entanglement. And it's known as Einstein's dilemma, because Einstein had always kind of almost put a governor on reality. The speed limit of reality is the, you know, speed of light. And. And yet with photons, observably, you see this sort of entanglement effect where optical properties, various optical properties seem to mirror one another at vast distances just instantaneously. And so how is the hall photon theory an update on that? And how does that unlock faster than light travel in the form of a spacecraft?

[Charles Hall]

Well, to begin with, I'd like to thank you for this nice interview. And if I don't forget, then having us on your podcast. Oh, yeah, I'd like to congratulate on just out thinking Einstein, when you say, what's it feel like to be smarter than Albert Einstein? I say, well, I know a guy. It's not just me, because what you say is correct. And the easiest way to see it is starting with the way Einstein did with the Michelson morley experiment of 1897, which was a failure. In 1897, everyone thought that a photon of light had only two force fields, an electric field and a magnetic field that oscillated together, okay, perpendicular to one another. And then they did the Mickelson Morley experiment. And then they wanted to interpret it as though it were a experiment that you would do with little boats crossing a river and going up and down in the river. When they didn't know anything about the photo, they thought they knew everything there was to know about the photon, that there was only two force fields, so they could pretend that they knew everything about how a photon looks like a Little boat going across the river. When the experiment failed, then nobody wanted to say, there has to be more structure to the photon than what we know about. Nobody wanted to do that. Okay, James Clerk Maxwell had done his equations, and they didn't want to say, there's more force fields that Maxwell's equations don't include, but should. And they oscillate, too. They wanted to say, we know everything there is to know about the photon. And then they wanted to say, and we know everything about the river and the banks and stuff and the little boats that cross it. So now they'd reasoned themselves into a corner. So what did the experiment fail? And they monkeyed around like that until Einstein, and they finally asked Einstein, but.

[Interviewer]

I think of it as a failure to detect the ether. The Michelson Morley experiment, Is that right? To think a medium through which photons would be carried.

[Charles Hall]

That would make sense. Yeah, that there was no ether. But then that left the question, so why isn't there at least some change? Why did the experiment totally fail? Along the way, they ignored things about the experiment. The first one is that if you do the experiment with one photon at a time in the interferometer, you get the same results. And that means that the photon has to be split in two for that to work. Today, we call that photon entanglement. But back then they said, I don't know, spooky at a distance, right? And then if you do with photons of just red light, then you get the same results, but the bright bands of light are still red light. And so therefore, the explanation that the photons would constructively interfere and destructively interfere can't be correct, because if they constructively interfered, they would have to change color. Blue photons have twice the energy of red photons. So that would mean you would be sending in blue light or sending in red light and looking at interference patterns of red light. But that's not the case. All that's happening in the interferometer is that the photons are being steered into bands of red photons that needs another force field to do the steering.

[Interviewer]

So what is. If you have, in traditional electromagnetism, classical electrodynamics, you have an electric field, a magnetic field, and a wave, and they're all sort of running perpendicular to one another. What other field types do you think exist in the hall? Photon theory?

[Charles Hall]

A whole bunch. Okay, like what? Okay, and remember, the force fields can be different force strength. The electric force, magnetic force field is considered pound for pound to be like, what, a trillion times? I might not have that number. Right. 100 million times more powerful pound for pound than the force of gravity.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's 10 to the 40th.

[Charles Hall]

But because the force of gravity is weaker pound for pound on the electromagnetic field, the force of gravity can move further than light. Okay, so the force of gravity from our galaxy can affect the nearby galaxy, the Andromeda Galaxy at 2.7 million light years, whereas the force of electricity from our galaxy cannot. Right, but Einstein wanted to ruin that analogy by saying, to protect his own reputation, I guess. I have no idea why. Trying to say that nothing could travel faster than light, not even gravity. Gravity. But obviously, if gravity can travel further than light, it must be traveling faster than light. If you look at the symmetry of the Andromeda galaxy and you say, well, it's 10,000, 100,000 light years, 200,000 light years across. And that means that, and it's so well organized, gravity must be traveling trillions of times faster than light. Otherwise, if the stars were trying to do that and gravity was only traveling at the speed of light, they'd all bump into each other.

[Interviewer]

So is gravity in your model also orders of magnitude weaker than electromagnetism? Because if it's traveling that far and having an effect, a pulling effect between.

[Charles Hall]

Mass bodies, if it's weaker, then it could go further. And see in the photon, how does that hold?

[Interviewer]

If it's weaker, it goes further because.

[Charles Hall]

It'S like a milk truck delivering milk. Right. If it's going to go down a street and hit every house and it's got to stop and interact along the way, or at least stand ready to. But if it's going to just do one house here and a house 10 miles down, the guy can go into high.

[Interviewer]

But I would think of, like, attenuation as being, you know, like a, a wave being, you know, the only way.

[Charles Hall]

It can attenuate, the only way a force field can attenuate is, say, like gravity, I'll say like gravity is for there to be an interaction cross section put up by another piece of matter or energy, energy somewhere down the road. And then when it's traveling, it's not trying to interact with the electric field, it's trying to interact with another gravity field. And those are attractive interactions. And if it casts, and because it doesn't have to, there is no interaction cross section between gravity and, say, an electric field that would be traveling through, then it could travel much, much faster, much, much further. That's what the neutrino is. The neutrino, we're told, can Travel through. If everything between the center of the sun and here were solid, gravity, neutrino could travel through it all and not interact with anything. So therefore, neutrino can travel, travel many, many times faster than light. However you say, well, what about the neutrinos that, say, are measured at the CERN reactor? Well, if they're going to interact using electricity and magnetism, then they have to slow to that speed. Electricity and magnetism to perform the interaction, because time doesn't change. Time is always flying at the same rate. They're all in the same time frame.

[Interviewer]

Do you think we have neutrino detection detectors?

[Charles Hall]

That's why neutrinos are so hard to detect.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but there are rumors that we have neutrino detectors, like at the South Pole and, you know, exotic.

[Charles Hall]

Hall photon theory says that within that light is a bundle of force fields. And there have to, There have. So there have to be a whole bunch of force fields in the photon, okay? And you must have to have variations of photons that have different collections of those different force fields, because you have photons and neutrinos which you see, which are very similar. And those photons. That means that even though photons that we're used to are limited by the speed of light, because the electric field and the magnetic field have interaction cross sections that gov. That, you know, the permittivity of free space and so on. Right, okay. That it has to touch base. It has to vibrate all those piano wires, if you will. If you have those other force fields be weak force fields, like the neutrino is surrounded by weak interaction force fields. They don't got to vibrate the electromagnetic wire, you see, they only got to vibrate their own wires. They may not have to do it at all. If you say, well, what are the permittivity of free space for those other force fields? They're much less than the ones for electricity and magnetism. Therefore, when you say, let me compute the speed of light for those force fields, as I do in Beyond Relativity, you come up with a speed speed a trillion times faster.

[Interviewer]

Charles, using the hall photon theory, how would you build the ufo and how would you basically propel yourself faster than light?

[Charles Hall]

Well, I'll give you some general principles, okay? Based on what I personally saw in the deserts. The first thing is the UFO must be a smooth ellipso like an egg or a Tic Tac, because the first principle of designing the different force fields and so on, is there cannot be any turbulence.

[Interviewer]

What about a saucer?

[Charles Hall]

Does that rule that out? It depends on how the edges of the saucer are. It can't have anything concave. An example of something concave. Concave is if like on the camera, you have the lens and it's shaped nice and then around it is a ring that sticks out and in between where the lens meets the ring is concave. If that were the shape of a, of a spacecraft that you were trying to use to propel yourself through space, you would be strictly limited to less than about 80% the speed of light because the force fields in that region would obey Einstein's theory of relativity because they're not streamlined in that area. They would go turbulent. And once they go turbulent, the force fields will bump into each other. The heating can go to infinity. The amount of energy that's lost in that little zone could go to infinity.

[Interviewer]

Convex is fine.

[Charles Hall]

Saw that.

[Interviewer]

Convex is fine. Concave creates this turbulent kind of resistance.

[Charles Hall]

But if you took that, if you took that lens and made it a complete ellipsoidal sphere of glass and you use that shape where there's no sharp edges, there's no concave edges, where there's just always egg shaped, then when you surround it with a bubble of force fields, they won't go turbulent because they're streamlined for high speed travel. When you do that and you start accelerating towards the speed of light, it'll just continue accelerating as though the speed of light weren't there. It'll just go right on through.

[Interviewer]

When you hear stories like Ryan Graves, Navy pilot Tom Talk about a sphere inside a cube or other kind of exotic looking objects that do have pointy edges and don't always look like your traditional saucer or egg or Tic TAC. In the 2003 time frame, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large hundred yard sighted Red Square.

[Charles Hall]

Approach the base from the ocean and.

[Interviewer]

Hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains.

[Charles Hall]

There was a similar event within 24.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Hours later in the evening.

[Interviewer]

This was a morning event, I believe.

[Charles Hall]

8:45 in the morning.

[Interviewer]

Later in the evening, post sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base, including some aggressive behaviors. These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off.

[Charles Hall]

The force fields interact with light when, when, when you see, and you can see it on the Tic Tac video, the Navy pilots, When you look at, when you look at the video the first question you have to ask yourself is when you're looking at the edges of the craft, you have to ask yourself, are you looking at just the force fields that are interacting with light that go away when the craft shuts down? Or are you looking at the actual physical metal, ceramic parts of the craft? See? And are you looking at a craft that was designed to exceed the speed of light? Or are you looking at a craft that was just designed for a specialized general kind of purpose here on Earth? Because, remember, the scout craft that you see, like for the grays and the whites, did not make the deep space crossing. Only the deep spacecraft make the deep space crossing.

[Interviewer]

What are the differences? What's the main distinction?

[Marie Therese Hall]

The Differences we use RVs to get around.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah. See, the deep spacecraft, and I speak from direct observation, they can all be individual, like ships at sea, or they can be general purpose, like. But one, for example, looks like. Well, you see how this house is one that I personally saw was a little bit longer than this house, a little bit wider than this house, about half again as high as this house. And it was all totally smooth all around, you know, no protrusion or whatever. It had the standard double hull. And then it had another. And the way this house has this room. And then on the side it had another set of rooms. So it had the double hull on the outside. Then it had a boundary area where you'd store stuff on both sides. And then it had the living area where you had actual cabins, the way you do on ships. And then up at the front, you had the cockpit and the control area up on top and control lights up on top. And then in the back you had the propulsion system. And that was meant to put sand out to deep space and head out for stars a hundred light years away. Okay, I'm quite certain of that. On the other hand, see a saucer that you might have for your children to take out to the play area, which I also saw, it's not meant to go faster than light. It's just meant to go, like from Bishop, California, California, to Roswell, New Mexico, in a half hour, you know, and it could do it in 10 minutes. But it's just meant to have a couple of teenagers take charge, put in three younger children, say eight or 10, and go out and play and just go around places here on Earth.

[Interviewer]

So getting back to how you'd build.

[Charles Hall]

The ideal, when you build it, if you build it for deep spaces and one that has like that where you have like a ball inside and then stuff outside Like a cube or something. You might ask, is that really one craft or is it the center ball is the real craft and the outside is something like a car pulling a trailer, you know. So you have to first ask, who are they and what did they mean to use that craft for? Because they don't just come here in a craft. They build a molar here. Now, The Norwegians with 24 teeth can only repair their craft when they get here. At least in 1965, one of the things they wanted to be able to do was to work with the American government and build craft here. And that's. See. So before, whenever you see a craft, whether it's a deep spacecraft or a scout craft or whatever, you have to ask, what's it meant for? If you really expect to do high speed, like 50 light? Well, like the scout craft that the tall white had that were ellipsoidal one time, I personally asked range four, Harry if that craft could exceed the speed of light. He was a very nice guy. We were like brothers. He was very adamant. He was. He said it could. But nobody, I'm going to use my words in their right mind would ever take it that fast. Once you got up to about 1% the speed of light, you were covering distance so fast, in his words, that if anything went wrong, your friends couldn't find you. And he didn't think it was made very well. He pointed out that to repair it, you had the to sit the craft down somewhere, like in the desert and go outside and open it up to repair it. But that the real deep spacecraft, you could repair everything from the inside. So the first thing that he thought that a deep spacecraft had to have was in addition to a double hull and fiber optic windings in between those two hulls to carry subatomic particles that would generate the force fields that you were working with, that you had to have access from the inside of the craft to repair them. You had to be careful they didn't overheat. If they overheated, the design had to apply. You had to be able to repair that from the inside. If you got in trouble, you had to have emergency beacons that used the force fields that travel faster than light to send forth for help. Because those types of force fields that you're using in the design, like you could see it in the TikTok video, if you're going to control infrared rays that are traveling at the speed of light, you want to use a force for field that itself is traveling faster than the speed of light. Otherwise you can't catch them and control them.

[Interviewer]

How does the. How does you mention that the engine or the propulsion is the only thing that the tall whites didn't kind of fully give the humans, as far as the ability to sort of fly these UFOs, direct observation. So. Yeah. So what do you think as far as how the. How does. How do these engines work? How are the. What's the power source? And then obviously, it's not chemical combustion. So what's going on in the engine?

[Charles Hall]

I'm quite certain that there's more subatomic particles, more quarks, than the six they know of. There's at least two more sets.

[Interviewer]

But how do you get. How do you figure that out? And when you sort. You have these, like, large hadron colliders, it's, like, super expensive to build billions of dies.

[Charles Hall]

When you sit down to design a craft, there's five subatomic particles that are virtually always used because they're close to being stable and easy to work with. And what you need is to have ceramic fiber in your engine. You have to produce those. So you don't have just one engine. You have to have a way of producing all five of those. And then what you have are ceramic fiber optic cables. Ceramic fiber optics are 49.6% aluminum, 50.2% silicon dioxide. That's the same as rocks. And the remainder is the semiconductor, germanium, selenium, and so on that you use to coat those fibers with to create fiber optics, optics. And then you wind those into coils. And whether you power up those coils or don't power up those coils, that's how you control and propel your craft. Okay? And those five, and how you design those five depends on what you want to do with your craft. There's two more. More types of subatomic particles in that family that are more unstable and are only occasionally used, but not for craft that you would ever have children or a family on, because all of the extraterrestrials travel as families. You'd only find them on military craft craft. And then there's two more, and so far, we've talked about a total of nine. Okay. That are so unstable that you would never use them when you were designing your craft. You would only use them if you were designing a military weapon. And when you say that number five, right? And the number six, that seems to ring a bell, doesn't it? Because we're told that when Ike Eisenhower was president, that there was a day that we're told publicly by ancient aliens and The US Press and so on, that there was a day at somewhere. The British guy said it was at Edwards, other people said it was at Alamoguardo, but they say there was a day somewhere where he was taken, where they took him out the day he was supposedly golfing at Palm Springs and went. Was taken to Edwards. No cameras, no press, and sitting on the Runway at Edwards were five spacecraft with extraterrestrials by them and that they were shown to Ike Eisenhower. Not one, except for the guy whose name is Charlie, looked at that and said, that makes perfect sense that they would do five. Because what they were showing him was the general features of how their spacecraft were designed. And you'd say, why five? It's because they were showing that there were five different subatomic particles and that when they designed them, they first said, I'm going to use this one for this purpose, this one for the second one for another purpose, and so on. And so they were showing them that they had five different purposes in the design, you see? Okay, but those who, you know, who mean well, think that they just arbitrarily showed five. Another one is the number three. Three. See, the fiber optics coils melt suddenly at about somewhere between 1800 and 2200 Fahrenheit, not because they're made by aliens, but because rocks melt between 1800 and 2200 degrees Fahrenheit. And if they're 50.2% silicon dioxide and 49.6% aluminum, that's what they are as rocks. And if they melt and that the fiber optics melt as they did during the Roswell, the two craft that crashed at Roswell, as described in my book the Valley of the Grace, what you'll see, you would think would be melted rocks. I know, I know. UFO people try to pretend that there was one saucer and it was going fast and it bounced and it hit the ground and melted the rocks and then bounced up and went on. And my answer is, if you haven't, you know, when was the last time you saw anything bounce against the rocks in a Nevada, in a New Mexico desert? I never have. Once they hit the rocks, they break. When the reason there are melted rocks there is because there were two saucers and the fiber optics were overheating and melting. And when they melt, they melt like melted glass or lava. And they have a big chunk that looks like lava, and a big chunk falls, and then it hardens and hits the ground and looks like a melted rock. So when you see those reports that the geologist came and his son Said, these are melted rocks, and they left them behind then. And they say we went out and picked up all the debris and we picked up this metal that resumes its shape. I said, those were cigarette wrapper, those were gum wrappers that did that. What you passed over was the stuff you care about. You found a piece of metal about a foot and a half to two feet wide and about two or three feet long. Felt like you had nothing in your hands. It wasn't any thicker than the foil out of a pack of cigarettes. But the thing about that got me is that you couldn't even bend it. You couldn't bed at it, even though the sledgehammer would bounce off of it. So I knew that I had never seen anything like that before. And as of now, I don't know what it was.

[Interviewer]

So you're saying, Jesse Marcel, that was just like the sort of memory metal, that was just the kind of exhaust.

[Charles Hall]

That could have come off from a kid's toy. Okay. Yeah. Because see, what you have is what you. After you've put in your melted. After you've put in your corn, then you have to protect them from the weather. Now, when you protect them from the weather, you're going to have to cover them with a thin metal sheet, but you're not going to be able to support the metal sheet with an outside metal strap. Okay. You're not going to be able to protect the metal sheet sheet with an inside metal strap because you can't have turbulence in the force fields. And you can. The metal is electromagnetic. We'll screw it up with stray electromagnetism and so on. And when you're designing it, you're going to start from square one. And then three times a day, you're going to go up and say, I don't want any turbulence in this force field. I don't want these coils to overheat. You're going to. If you're a gray designer and you're designing a craft for gray children, then you're going to have, as per the Roswell Museum, you're going to have something that is missing from their display model. On the underside, you're going to have a little doorway that the operator of the craft can open anytime he wants and let molten fiber optics fall out. Okay. Because he's in desperate, desperate mode to save his fiber optics. They have overheated. And then he can close the door and take off again. And if he does, he may not be able to use all of his coils. So if he's by himself, he's in deep trouble, as in the craft over the San Plains of San Augustine in 1947. He's by himself, himself. And he's got big trouble because. But if he's got two craft beside him, the fields from their craft and the fields from his craft will join together, as I've personally seen. Range 4 Harry do with the high speed horse formation to form a single larger craft when the fields are present and stabilize his craft. And now the three together can fly off to someplace safe. Okay.

[Interviewer]

You need to use specific metamaterials for these, you know, very intense kind of, you know, environments and you know, a lot of electricity and. Yeah. Do you need to use specific materials.

[Charles Hall]

For the craft before you can know about the materials? Materials, you have to know about the subatomic particles because these ceramic fiber optics are supposed to contain. Do what fiber optics do today. What only they do it differently. I've personally seen the fiber optics as I describe in my book when I was in the sixth, the summer after my sixth, between my fifth and sixth grade trade, when Ray Palmer, the other, I believe that was his name, the editor of Flying Saucers magazine in a store in London, Wisconsin, and his childhood friend who ran the store came back from Roswell with a stretch about a yard long. And it was, it was woven. It wasn't a thin strip of metal. It was like they took nylon fibers, but it wasn't nylon. It was ceramic. And wound it and then when you float, shined the flashlight through it, the light would bend without being absorbed. Now you. But before you do it for the craft, you first have to know about the particles because you have to know how to build the fiber optics before you can do anything else.

[Interviewer]

So Roswell, you mentioned the Roswell Grays, and you're talking about the Roswell craft. The lore is that it made its way to Wright Patterson Wright Airfield at the time. And did you think you're saying it eventually made its way to Area 51 or to the Nevada test range?

[Charles Hall]

I don't know where it made its way to, but I don't care because I've seen the real one and I know what it looks like, according to Jess.

[Interviewer]

Where'd you see it? Did you see it in Nevada?

[Charles Hall]

In Nevada? I've seen a craft of that type many times on one, as I describe in my book on the valleys of the Grace, on one cold air on a snowy night in the fall back in the 60s when I damn near died in the fog. And the scout craft with the young lady in it and some of her friends accompanied by the deep spacecraft and the teenage craft. They had gone down to the bend in the road. And she alone, she was just learning to run the craft so they didn't let her take it up in the air. And before the fog moved in, when I was walking down there, I was on the side of a hill, I was alone. And she had brought the craft in on the paved. On the gravel road. She just had the control coils running and she had opened up the door on the side. I was very reluctant to approach a craft because I knew from experience that they all have those surround feels surrounding them and that if you get too close, it's like walking into the back of a jet engine. When the jet engine is running, you gotta. You gotta just stay and let them see you and let them come as close as they want or you'll get your ass burned. So I was. But she had powered down the outer coils, so from her point of view, there was nothing keeping me from just walking the final distance and stepping up into the craft and saying hi and meeting her and the others who were on the craft. I didn't realize at the time that the teenager who was the backup pilot, he was a young Gray. They looked just like someone from Mongolia. But the other three, she and the other three were actually humans. They were young Chinese people that the Grays had rescued, not abducted, but they had been orphaned. And the Grays had repute. And the whole point was that they were trying to return them to human society. But first you ought to find a human who everybody trusts, including the children. And the human has to be somebody who trusts them in return. And the human they had figured that they had chosen had this last name, hall, and a first name Charlie. Okay. Or Charles. Right? And you say, well, why didn't they tell me? And they say, well, that's why we picked him, because he'll figure it out if we just get him time. Right? Why tell him early and scare him? Right? You know, that's why we picked him, because he's perfect at convergent divergent reasoning and he'll figure it out. And that's what they're doing, waiting for me to come. And what they had was the very same craft. Of the three that crashed at Roswell, what they had was the very same crest. And in the back of that craft.

[Interviewer]

Craft, do you think we know how to fly these crafts now? Do you think humans know how to fly them?

[Charles Hall]

I'll finish this sentence and I'll answer it in the Back of that craft was a restroom in the back of all the cr. All those people are extra or real physical, biological entities. They all have to eat, they all have to breathe air, drink water, and they all have to periodically go to the restroom. And therefore, every craft in the back has a bathroom, you see? And therefore, when you say, like the crash at Kingman, the young lady that survived, the sheriff there said that after she came out and they were waiting for help to come, what did she do? His. In his own words, he said she went back in the craft and stayed in the back. And the UFO people say it must be a shrine or she was praying. And of course, I think that's really laughable because having seen the craft, there's no shrine back there. What there is, is a bathroom. And if the craft. And there's also food storage. And so if the craft has crashed and she's got to wait a while, like every other biological entity, they're going to fall back on the bathroom, you see? There's no reason to fall back in the control panels because the craft isn't running. That's why they crashed, see? But the UFO people all have this thing. Well, there was a time they said in all this craft, there must be a shrine in the back where they go and pray. And you say, no, no, no, no. I've seen the craft. They're going, that's a bathroom. Right. And I have a whole class of stories in that vein. No, no. So when I say my advantages that I've been there and seen that I say the wreckage that was sitting in the run, in the. In the hangar at Roswell, that was recovered from Roswell, when you say, what was that like? Well, that wreckage had the bathroom on the other side. And so that meant for the part that blew in was blowing in on the food store storage, you see? And so when you went on the wreckage of that, I would guess that you would find on the other side what remained of the restroom, which might not be very much. Okay, but now, in answer to it, what was your question that you wanted me to ask?

[Interviewer]

If humans. You mentioned that these. There were these Chinese occupants of the craft. Do you think that humans can fly these exotic, et cetera, crafts?

[Charles Hall]

It's like everything else. If they're trained. Okay. It's like if. If they have an opportunity to learn, if they have a trainer, if they. Yeah, it's not something you can do naturally for the same reason that a Cessna. A Cessna airplane is a. They tell me as a pretty simple airplane to fly I've actually flown one as co pilot for about 45 minutes, but not by myself. There was a trained pilot. I was in the co pilot seat and the trained pilot was in the pilot seat. And it was a nice night. And all I was doing was flying straight and level and saying, yeah, I'm not moving anything. Okay, if you call that flying. Well.

[Interviewer]

Does the training involve the mind matter connection? There are rumors that there are no control panels. Do you sort of psychically connect with the craft?

[Charles Hall]

You don't do anything psychically. Everything is electronics. The electronics either are adjusted to tell what you're thinking and therefore react because you're thinking, or to not work at all. It isn't the person that has to change their way of thinking. It's the person who's adjusting the electronics has to adjust it. It's unique for each human.

[Interviewer]

So how many of these tall whites were out there with you? If you had to guess or estimate.

[Charles Hall]

It varied with how many ships were in port. See, the deep spaceships would arrive and would come and go on schedule the same way an airport is. They liked to come and go near the night of the full moon. And on the night of the full moon, the moon is the moon and the Earth and the sun all form a line. So behind the Earth and the in its orbit is a uniform gravitational field and it's going away from the incoming craft. So if anything goes wrong, they can back off and the Earth won't run into them. It'll go away. This is much different than The Norwegians with 24 teeth who want to do it, who want to come in on the front side of the Earth. Because The Norwegians with 24 teeth with less technology must land at any price, even if the Earth runs into them. But the Grays and the, but the tall Whites, the deep spacecraft of the tall Whites want to come in in the night of the full moon. The Grays who have a base on the moon come and go at any time they want. The, the tall whites, the craft are come on schedule and they have different schedules. Some are making a two month schedule. The longest schedule I saw was craft that take five years and, and those craft with a five year schedule I was told were coming directly from their home planet. Of course, since all the craft travel many times faster than the speed of light, I'm not sure where their home planet was. But if there were no craft in port, then the number of tall whites at the base wasn't particularly large. I'm not sure what the number was, but it Would be rare to see as many as a hundred out in the desert if there were no. If there were no ships in deep spacecraft in port. On the other hand, the night that Pamela was supposed to pass her test to head up a technology transfer. A tall white technology transfer team. By dressing up and disguising themselves as. By dressing up and disguising herself as a human woman and the other. The other tall white. By dressing up and disguising himself as a human man specifically named Charlie Hall. And she would specifically pretend to be his wife so they could go into places like Living Livermore and pretend to be humans and talk to the. The scientists. I'm guessing.

[Interviewer]

Wait. Explain what you just said in a minute.

[Charles Hall]

The. The night she was gonna.

[Interviewer]

Are you saying that you're a tall white?

[Charles Hall]

No, I'm not a tall white. I was born in Brooklyn, Wisconsin. My parents all came from England.

[Interviewer]

Well then. But they. They mimicked you. One of the tall whites disguised themselves as you and your wife and then showed up at Livermore Labs.

[Charles Hall]

I'm guessing. I'm guessing.

[Interviewer]

And how do you know?

[Charles Hall]

Well, what.

[Interviewer]

Where did that come from?

[Charles Hall]

I've never seen any classified documents. I'm guessing. Only from my personal experience talking with the tall heights.

[Interviewer]

They've told you that they kind of used you for inspiration to infiltrate or not infiltrate. Maybe that's too aggressive a word. But to enter American scientific programs.

[Charles Hall]

I'm just totally guessing. But the night she was show them.

[Marie Therese Hall]

How to not be afraid around humans and to act easily when in the presence of humans, that was his whole MO that he was supposed to be there because they were as terrified. Terrified of us as we might have been terrified by them. And it was. That was what the program was.

[Interviewer]

So what do you mean?

[Charles Hall]

On that night there were more tall white scout craft located up the valley and on the eastern side of Indian Springs Valley.

[Interviewer]

On what night?

[Charles Hall]

The night that Pamela was supposed to pass her final exam. The crowd that formed of tall whites and a few human generals and bigwigs on the eastern side of the valley. There were more than I could count. I stopped counting at 50, at 35, but I guessed there were at least 70 there. There were so many scout craft and tall white that that whole side of the valley was white fluorescent white people skullcraft. It looked like a county fair over there. And all they were going to do is watch her. Pamela, while the teacher and Pamela was over where the ammunition bunker was at at three and a half miles was to. Was to watch her, the teacher and Pamela walk down down the Paved pathway or one lane road from the ammunition bunker on the east side down to about a halfway where there was a ridge. And then the teacher would wait there. And then Pamela, with all of her technology turned off okay, on totally trusting to that I'm a nice guy to be around, okay? Otherwise totally helpless against me if I'm not, was supposed to continue walking down the, down the pathway until she got to the range boards. And then while I was working, while I was, had released the balloon and I was tracking the balloon to just, just walk over to me disguised as a human. She didn't have to be disguised as a human lady just wearing her natural suit, totally turned off to just walk over to me the way you and I are. And then while I was working, walk around behind me and turn her back to me, proving that she trusted me. Just like the scene from the Man Called Horse where the, where the guy, where the Indian chief does that to Horse, turn around and talk to me with her back turned towards me, totally turned off or everything, and then walk around to the other with everybody watching and then walk around and say, it's been so nice to meet you, Charlie. And then go on. And then, then she could then leave then. And her husband, the guy pretending to be me as her husband, would then have to do it next. Okay, on that night, on that night she failed the test. On that night she panicked and got about. Well, she didn't even get down to the quarter mile limit when she panicked and was afraid that I was a truly an ugly monster that she couldn't trust and ran off. But there came a night when she had to do that, and that's described in my book.

[Interviewer]

What do you think the tall whites want with humanity? Do you think they have goals for us or do you think they're just trying to engage in diplomatic relations?

[Charles Hall]

Well, they came here in the middle of the last ice age because we, for the same reason that we have a base on Guam. The sun and the solar system exists in the middle of a huge void in space. The next closest star, Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, is almost four light years away. Most stars, or many stars have another star within two light weeks. Okay. It's not all unusual for many stars to be not more than a light year apart. If you're going to cross that big void in space as you're conducting interstellar commerce for your own good, then it's nice to have a place in the middle because that void is therefore something like 8 or 10 light years across or 6 or 8. A big long light there. It's nice to have a place in the middle where you can stop and get food and water, go outside your spacecraft and repair it. Where you can stop and rest, but also get minerals or other things that you might need.

[Interviewer]

Such a pit stop.

[Charles Hall]

It's a pit stop. Interesting. And, and of course, the reason that there are many of their spacecraft doing that is because there's only. Is for the same reason that there are many Air Force planes that stop at Guam. Because location, location, location.

[Interviewer]

What do you make of.

[Charles Hall]

If you're there, it's a big help if you have some locals who grow some food for you. They're plant eaters, the Tolleites, as the Grays are they, and do the work of harvesting and hand you the food.

[Interviewer]

What do you make of rumors, stories that Eich Eisenhower meeting possibly Palm Springs, 1954, this treaty. You say five crafts showed up. There's another story called Hallman Air Force Base, where there's a landing and there's a possible interaction between some generals on the base and these, these tall beings, but they seem to actually have like almost pharaonic Egyptian headdress. And this was, this video, I think, was promised at one point to Rod Serling and Bob emonager, who made UFOs past, present and future. And the video never came. But I've spoken to, you know, some pretty interesting people in the UFO whistleblower world who do stand by that account. That, that, that, that was like a real meeting. Do you, do you think that that happened? And was it a tall white that came out of the craft at Hallman Air Force Base?

[Charles Hall]

I'll maintain my policy of never commenting on other people's stories. And the reason is because my books are based totally on my own experience and, and it's not based on anything I've read or anything. They're not based on any, any classified material. I was never part of any project. They're based on what. When you say, what was life for me. Yeah. And there. And what I'm trying to do in my books. One of the major things I'm trying to do in my books is I'm trying to tell my grandkids how it was for me. And I'm trying to point out to them, them that when you're personally dealing with the extraterrestrials, you feel differently than when you're personally dealing with your guardian angels. Your guardian angels are like brothers who love you. There's never any fear with the sensation that your guardian Angels are there with you because each of us, I believe, has two guardian angels at least, who are always with us and have nothing else to do but keep track of each one of us. And I get so frustrated when I see so many humans who mean well trying to confuse guardian angels and what God and love and the guardian angels are doing with what the biological entities who are extraterrestrials are doing. And so, and that's what I'm trying to do in my book. I'm not trying to. I don't care what the government wants to collect, classify, that's fine with me. If they want to classify the recipe for Hershey candy bars and say, you know, you can have one, Charlie, but don't tell anybody.

[Interviewer]

Do you miss the tall whites? Do you feel an emotional affection towards them? You said that you and Range four Harry were like brothers. Do you ever think, hey, maybe I could contact range4Harry or go back and speak to him, Go back to the, to the range to know us?

[Charles Hall]

Well, if I, let's say, if I were out in the desert, let's say out by Dale here in New Mexico, which is one of the tall white playgrounds, let's say if I ever were out there and let's say I happen to see them, if I were to just say, well, I just wanted to see, you know, monkey around and see you or, you know, whatever, well, that they might say, well, now you've seen us, and so go on about their business. See, they're very goal oriented, even though they like us. And it's not that they're being rude. It's because remember the teacher in 1965 who had been born when George Washington was born, when she was playing with, when she was over at range two that Sunday with her daughter, who she called the butterfly, and the little white girl that she wanted to be friends with her little. With her daughter because the little girls could be friends. She was standing there on the side in a very. Now they were playing on the skip bomb area and the two boys were playing also. She was standing a little ways away, away from him on the higher ground, slightly higher ground. She was very nostalgic remembering her childhood where she played on the same piece of ground with a little Native American girl who was equivalent to her age, 5 years old at the time, but her memories of that little Indian Native American girl that was her very best friend at the time, in the time, because they live 10 times longer than we do in the time that passed while she went from equivalently being, say, in the fourth grade to the seventh grade, for us, those are just a few years. In that equivalent time, the Native American little girl grew to adulthood, got married, had children, went through her entire life cycle and died of old age just in the time the teacher had gone through the equivalent lifestyle of from the fourth grade to the seventh grade.

[Interviewer]

Do you think they feel a fondness for humans like they do?

[Charles Hall]

They do. But on the other hand, from their point of view, Gee, I'm 80 years old right now, you know, I'll be, be dead. And what for them is the blink of an eye? I know even if I live to be a hundred, I'll, you know, it's just two more. I only have two more years to live. So from their point of view, if I say we're out there at my age, they would you, you. They might, they, they might. I mean, they're friends. But you have to remember, remember that socializing and being friends for them with humans is a little bit like us being friends and socializing with say, a dog in its old age that we may not have seen for five or 10 years.

[Interviewer]

There's a guy at NASA who has a deep interest in these sorts of things. Experience, experiencers. His name is Timothy Taylor. Have you heard of him by any chance?

[Marie Therese Hall]

Did you say Timothy Taylor? Yeah, he's a good friend of ours.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you know, you know Timothy Taylor, Tim Taylor.

[Narrator/Host]

This is one of those characters where, well, if you know, you know, but if you don't, there's probably a reason why the mood shifted here, folks. Tim Taylor was a NASA engineer who became a biotech tech entrepreneur. And according to Diana Pasulka's book American Cosmic, where he appeared under the pseudonym Tyler D. Has remained actively involved in launch operations for NASA up until today. Pasulka paints Taylor as an enigmatic figure who led her and Stanford microbiologist Gary Nolan to a UFO crash site in New Mexico. By many, he's considered a gatekeeper, well connected with access to cross crash retrieval secrets, as well as personally receiving what he termed downloads of information from otherworldly sources. He claimed these downloads were facilitated by protocols he engaged in, protocols that allowed him to communicate with non human intelligences. In Pasalka's book, Taylor undergoes a profound conversion in the Vatican archives, blending technology and the phenomena in what became a personal revelation.

[Charles Hall]

And then he, he decided to convert. But also what happens is he changes his idea of what these things are that he's feeling he's getting signals from. Because we were studying saints who had these experiences and he was Thinking that.

[Narrator/Host]

They'Re more in line with what they.

[Charles Hall]

Were, you know, experiencing too.

[Narrator/Host]

And outside of her account, super experiencer Chris Bledsoe's memoir openly names Taylor as a natural NASA insider who befriended him after his encounters. Sometimes Taylor would bring other scientists or officials to witness Bledsoe's experiences. I myself was briefly in contact with Taylor and I'm not sure what to make of him. And even though I was shocked that his name came up in this conversation, I wasn't necessarily surprised. The deeper cut on Tim Taylor is that he himself is some sort of time traveler, part of a secret program program adjusting timelines. This doesn't come from me. Perhaps my favorite figure, aerospace engineer and anti gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Browne is connected with Tim Taylor. This is where the story gets weird. Thomas Townsend Browne was obsessed with antigravity, but gravity and time have a tight relationship in general relativity. This is just standard physics. So the subplot of his great biography by Paul Schatzko, the man who mastered gravity, is that Townsend Brown was obsessed with time travel. He would talk about it constantly with his friends and family. Apparently, Tim Taylor told Ryan Bledsoe, Chris Bledsoe's son, that he was part of a secret group in Nassau in the Bahamas that dealt with time travel. I would dismiss this out of hand entirely, but there are some even more interesting connections between Towns and Brown and Tim Taylor. There's an Amazon review that Townsend Brown's daughter wrote on Tim Taylor's biography, Launch Fever. In that biography, Tim Taylor talks about his time traveling back and forth to the Bahamas. He spent a lot of time in Nassau. Townsend Brown also spent a ton of time in Nassau. In fact, his biographer, Paul Schatzkin, even coined a term for a secret group that used to meet there. It was called the Nassau Group, and it included the elite, elite of the elite. Industrialists like Eldridge, Reeves Johnson, and even the inspiration for James Bond in Churchill's super spy, William Stevenson, who helped form the CIA. So maybe Tim and Townsend are part of a secret time travel group. Who knows? But it is interesting that Taylor seems to consistently pop up around very important experiencers in the United States. Now back to our conversation.

[Interviewer]

How did you guys originally meet Tim Taylor? He's sort of this very interesting figure, you know, works with NASA and he's very interested in.

[Marie Therese Hall]

He came here because he found out about Charles. And that was when his daughter, the one who had the. The baby, was like, what was she maybe in fifth grade when they came the first time? Yeah, we.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think he was he became interested in your story.

[Charles Hall]

My wife can answer all the questions.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Because he realized, as far as he was concerned, that Charles was. The real article was legitimate. And as I say, it's really concerned me because I've tried to email other people because he brought other people to meet us and visit with us. One of the guys cooked right here in my kitchen. And so I tried to contact those people because I had emails for them and I never got a response about what happened to him.

[Charles Hall]

And who did he bring?

[Marie Therese Hall]

Let me see. King. David King. Wasn't that his name? And what was the doctor that was. Was. I think I still have the emails, but he brought lots of people here and. Oh, brought them to Las Vegas.

[Interviewer]

Kit Green. Dr. Kit Green, maybe?

[Marie Therese Hall]

No, we were at Green's house, I believe, and he flew us to Atlanta and had us meet. Meet the. Oh, what was their last name? No, I can't remember.

[Charles Hall]

I know who you mean, honey, but I don't remember the last name either.

[Marie Therese Hall]

We met all his friends. They had a whole house full of people and entertained us.

[Interviewer]

Interesting. What, what did you get the sense that, did they just want to learn or did they. What do you think?

[Marie Therese Hall]

They were just big fans, but because he introduced them to us, what did.

[Interviewer]

You get this sense of, like, his job at NASA? Do you. Do you know what? He.

[Marie Therese Hall]

He said that he was no longer involved, that he went into business for himself and he would. Oh, that's the interesting story. He'd been all over to the various Air Force bases, et cetera, but he'd never been to Creech before. And so when he came back from Creech the first time, he said he thought that Charles underplayed the strangeness that was going on there. He said they were there for a ribbon cutting ceremony and he was standing right next to a friend of his. Oh, there were no lower ranking people, just all off officers. And he said to the guy, do you mind if I just drive up the road, you know, a mile or two? I won't get out of the car. And the guy said, oh, that would be a very bad idea. And then just that quickly, he said, I'm so glad you could make it for this. You know, like, I didn't say what I just said. And yeah, so he was really even more impressed with Charles account after he finally got the chance to visit Creech for the first time.

[Interviewer]

Did he ever say where his interest in ETs came from?

[Marie Therese Hall]

I don't remember that he said that. No.

[Charles Hall]

There were many things. We never talked about his work or things of that nature. And we, we also never talked about projects that he was associated with or anything like that.

[Interviewer]

Did he ever ask you about your Hall Photon theory?

[Marie Therese Hall]

Yeah, I'm sure we talked about it.

[Charles Hall]

Yeah.

[Marie Therese Hall]

But he, he was interested actually in buying a house and moving out here.

[Interviewer]

He seems to pop in when experiencers have anomalous experiences with.

[Marie Therese Hall]

We never had any trouble getting in touch with him and asking. As I say, the last contact we had was just when he said, you know, he was looking forward to being a grandfather and that was it. He just disappeared. We never heard from him since.

[Interviewer]

I've heard that from numerous people he did that. I mean, Chris bled, so I had very intermittent correspondence with him, but he dropped off on me close to Chris Bledsoe, a bunch of other people.

[Marie Therese Hall]

So it's just that ours went on for so many years.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charles Hall]

You said 15 years.

[Marie Therese Hall]

I think so, yeah.

[Charles Hall]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charles Hall]

It's so strange that he would just not contact you after 15 years, though.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Yeah, I mean, we shared a lot of really personal things and you know, of course he converted to Catholicism.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. Recently in what, in 20, like 15.

[Marie Therese Hall]

16Ish, something like that.

[Charles Hall]

During his trip to the Vatican.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Yeah. And he then he'd been to Rome several times after that, so. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think when he went to the Vatican archives, he experienced anything around the ET topic? Any confirmation of that?

[Marie Therese Hall]

I have no idea. But when Charles and I went to Rome for the first time in 2000, what was that? Five, six, something around there. I took the first three books as a presentation for Pope Benedict and a couple, you know, like two months later when we were home, we actually got a thank you note from Pope Benedict.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Marie Therese Hall]

God, yeah.

[Charles Hall]

That's amazing.

[Marie Therese Hall]

I. We put, I think we xeroxed it and put it in the. In book four, maybe.

[Charles Hall]

Wow.

[Marie Therese Hall]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Could we see that? I'd love to see the banking out. That'd be amazing. Four. Okay. That's awesome.

[Charles Hall]

Do you believe that Timothy Taylor has ever met an extraterrestrial?

[Marie Therese Hall]

He certainly didn't say anything about meeting.

[Charles Hall]

Has he shared any personal sightings that he's ever had?

[Marie Therese Hall]

No, but maybe the fact that he disappeared, maybe. Maybe he went off with them somewhere. I don't know.

[Charles Hall]

One night I was out in range. Three and a group of new arrivals. It was after the fourth full moon, a week or so, and as usual, a group of the guards, the permanently assigned tollway guards at the base. At the base. At the base, up at the north end of Indian Springs Valley brought down. They were using the Tourist model Scoutcraft which had seating for like two dozen. And they brought it down, brought, brought them down to the, to the range tree area so they could see me, the first human that any of those tollways had ever seen. And while I was there they came in too close. I expect them being new people to stop at least to the quarter mile which was more common. But they kept coming in because they were assured that I was a nice guy until they were as close as you guys. Well, this was new. The guard was in position. This was when I was still new and still not completely at ease being around him. And since the new people are armed too, that meant that you know, I was somewhat intimidated. And there was an older lady or a middle aged lady and I was at my theatlight stand, I was tracking a balloon and so I said, well so I just turned to him and I looked at him and I just said I'm feeling a little scared and you know, so I'm just going to put my stuff here and I'm going to go into base and you guys can stay and look around and do whatever you want and have fun. And then I backed away and I went walking, not running key point walking to my truck that was parked some distance away on the other side of my, the generator shack. And as I was walking this middle aged lady said to the guard she was kind of stuck, surprised. She said we didn't do anything wrong, did we? I mean, you know, we didn't and, and the, you know, what's he like? And the guard proceeded to tell the TR the group what they thought of. I was like the guard said, and I quote, well he seems to talk more than most humans and he seems to eat a lot more than most humans and us. But you know, you don't worry if you're any scares a lot more easily than most humans. But see, he's different. He just goes in and talks and eats and then he comes right back out. The others once we fried him would never come back and might not eat again for a couple of days. And they were all laughing. So just wager he'll be back out after lunch. Just give him time to eat and talk to some of the other guys. He'll be right back. Wow, that's what they thought of me. That encapsulates how I wasn't braver than the other guys. I scared easy but just let me eat and talk for a while, I'll get over it.

[Interviewer]

Well, that encapsulates I think you and how special you are. Because it shows in the documentary that Emile made as well, where like initially you are scared and you don't know what to do. And I think most people would have a reflexive allergic reaction and kind of run away. And your reaction is just this kind of.

[Charles Hall]

I know 41 men that would agree with you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charles Hall]

If not all of them are still alive life.

[Interviewer]

Right. Oh, interesting. So 41 men who had nervous breakdowns.

[Charles Hall]

Set out before me and came back.

[Interviewer]

Compromised, compromised, meaning mentally unstable.

[Charles Hall]

Some of them. But some of them just wouldn't go out there again. Just. Well, the one the guy before me had deserted, but the one I remember, the one I always felt sorry, it's the one I describe in my book. He was the one that was out at range four one night and when they first sent him out there. And the tall whites came in the. And I'll use my words, not his, the tall whites came in the high speed horse formation and they came from the northwest mountains when you're in Indian Springs amount to the north and northwest. They came down and they were coming across the dry lake bed at range four. And they were very, very close to where. And he was. He was at the weather station at range four. And he couldn't believe they were real because they were floating. And when he. So he went out there and surprised him and he got too close to him because they still had their suits powered up and they were still in the tall white for in the high. In the. Floating in the high speed horse formation. And he got to close to them and the suits which put out radioactive particles and you could see them. They see when they were turned up high enough, they would sparkle. You could see the alpha particles and the beta particles and stuffing out and the other particles. You could actually see the decay chains coming off the suits and the suit and his shoulder almost touched one of the shoes. And I saw his X rays and pictures. Wow. At the. When I was at the Nellis base hospital.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charles Hall]

And. And it. In the. It. The doctor himself said it. It looked like the wounds from the hero victims of the Hiroshima blast. And it looked like his whole show, the meat, the foul, everything had been cooked off.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charles Hall]

Okay. Yeah. Had been cooked off. Had. You know, the bone was exploited and he just barely made it back to base alive.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever. Did you ever experience any radiation damage due to interactions with them or.

[Charles Hall]

No, not that I'm aware of. And part of the reason was because. Part of the reason was because you could see the fluorescent. If they had their suits turned up high enough you could see the radioactive decay particles. And, of course, I recognized them immediately as radioactive decay particles, because in those days, in the early 19. That was in 1965, we'll see in the early. The early 1950s, you could still get radium paint and put it on your watch or your toys. And if you had a magnifying glass and you went into a very dark room and waited, like, 45 or 50 minutes for your eyes to perfectly adjust to the darkness and used a radiation magnifying glass, you could actually see the subatomic particles come off the radium paint, the alpha particles of beta particles of gamma rays, and see. So when I saw those coming off their suits of the tall whites out in the desert, I knew perfectly well what they were. I was surprised by how big the party. Those tracks were and how far they carried. When it came off from radium paint, the tracks would be coming off just a short distance like that. When you saw them out in the desert, they'd be coming off distances like. Like that there. So those suits had a tremendous, tremendous power.

[Interviewer]

Charles yeah. This has been an absolute honor. I appreciate your time, man.

[Charles Hall]

SAM.