I Spent 48 Hours with Bob Lazar (The Truth Is Stranger Than You Think)

Summary

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels: “I Spent 48 Hours With Bob Lazar: Area 51’s UFO Whistleblower”

Date: April 13, 2026
Host: Jesse Michels
Main Guests: Bob Lazar, Luigi Vendettelli, Emily, Chris Matteo, Logan

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Episode Overview

In this landmark, multi-hour episode, Jesse Michels and team (including filmmaker Luigi Vendettelli, the S4 movie crew, and co-host Emily) spend 48 hours in deep, candid conversation with Bob Lazar—the original Area 51/S4 UFO whistleblower. They challenge his story with hard questions, trace the sociology of secrecy, examine physical and documentary evidence, and probe the scientific plausibility of antigravity claims connected to “exotic” non-human craft. For the first time, Lazar is also paired with contemporary NASA antigravity researcher Dr. Charles Buhler in a lively technical exchange.

The episode fluidly blends personal narrative, technical deep-dives, and “truth’s protective layers”—from Lazar’s troubled schooling to shadow groups, potential mob ties, and the physical science underpinning anomalous craft. Throughout, the tone is direct, skeptical but curious, and open to both scientific rigor and the absurdity of fame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bob Lazar's Background and Early Life

• Childhood: Rebellious, innately scientific, uninterested in authority or school; focused intensely on self-guided science projects (10:48–16:29).
• Family: Alludes to constant moving and “shady” activities in his father’s background, including mob and harness racing ties—“Never talked about.” (14:25–15:50)
• Grew up on Long Island, moved often, tinkered with electronics and chemistry from a young age.
• Quote:
  • “Instead of playing with toys, I’d take apart clocks and things like that... I was just very inquisitive.” (10:48, Bob Lazar)
  • “I really had a problem with authority… I just don’t recognize your authority.” (11:07, Bob Lazar)

2. From Los Alamos to S4 Recruitment

• Career Buildup:
  • Work at Fairchild Electronics, later at Los Alamos lab: famous for building a jet-powered Honda Civic, which caught Edward Teller’s eye (17:19–21:25).
  • Quote:
    • “I built a jet engine from scratch and put it [in a Honda]. That’s what got me noticed.” (17:19, Bob Lazar)
• Contact with Edward Teller:
  • Met Teller, exchanged resumes; this led Lazar to EG&G, a government contractor heavily involved in nuclear testing and (as implied) sensitive surveillance projects (19:42–32:15).
• EG&G Interview:
  • Hinted at multiple potential roles—eventually slotted into the S4 reverse-engineering program, possibly for his “out-of-the-box” thinking (35:41–38:04).

3. Work at S4: The UFO Program

• Arrival at S4:
  • Entered via blacked-out bus from Area 51, shadowed by supervisor Dennis Mariani (40:13–41:45).
  • Describes the hangars, security, and receiving briefings on various compartmentalized projects: “Galileo” (propulsion/parallel engineering), “Looking Glass” (time), and “Sidekick” (potential weapons) (43:12–46:12).
  • Quote:
    • “Project Galileo was the first, you know, the first briefing in there. The directives: duplicate the propulsion system with available materials, and be able to disable the system remotely… at any cost.” (43:13, Bob Lazar)

a. Physical and Psychological Experience of the Craft

• Nine crafts observed; each had distinct structure, but all shared similar material and propulsion design (67:05–68:05).
• The “sport model” matches the Billy Meier photographs exactly, with structural anomalies including unsupported floors impossible by terrestrial metallurgy (51:42–53:05).
• Color/Feel:
  • “Blacker than black” sections, presence of solid “bottomless pit”–like portals, a repeated sense of ominous, existential dread on entering craft (54:18–56:07).
  • “It wasn’t exciting; it was really frightening.” (56:08, Bob Lazar)

b. On Operation and Physics of the Craft

• Experiments with amplifier “seats,” working reactor, and gravity manipulation—reactors given “allergy” tests, and a mysterious, impenetrable field shown with a golf ball bouncing off (98:54–99:41).
• Witnessed a silent test flight:
  • Craft emits “orange corona,” hovers and wobbles, visually disappears when observed from underneath (“light bending”), and is likely piloted via methods unknown, possibly even mental control (59:33–64:47).
  • Quote: “You can see it’s bending the light… it’s in its little envelope.” (61:12, Bob Lazar)
• Human reverse engineering stalled—analogy: people in the 1800s tinkering with a motorcycle, unable to reproduce it but learning to ride (64:47–65:30).

c. On “Element 115”

• Describes reactor using “Element 115”—now identified chemically as Moscovium, but with key isotopes unknown, possibly synthesized off-world (101:00–102:09; 174:25–176:37).
• Only a handful of atoms produced on Earth; suggests propulsion and space-time manipulation derive from interactions within this element.

d. S4 Security, Personnel, and After-Effects

• Team had previously suffered fatalities while attempting to cut open the reactor ("under load")—indicative of secretive, dangerous, often need-to-know protocols (94:36–96:26).
• Personnel identified: Dennis Mariani (supervisor), Barry Castillo (lab partner), “Renee” (occasional collaborator).
• Lazar and friends (Gene Huff, John Lear) observed scheduled test flights from outside base; after being caught, Lazar was permanently barred from the program (124:34–126:00).

4. Conspiracy, Secrecy, and the Sociology of UFO Programs

• Program Extraction:
  • Suggests programs have likely since moved from Nevada test sites to other highly secure, possibly offshore or international locations (173:46–174:19).
• Cabals & Mob Analogies:
  • Security regimes described as “their own cabal,” possibly using intimidation and extra-legal pressure rather than straightforward legal action—mirroring organized crime secrecy more than governmental procedures (152:10–154:44).
  • Frequent “messing with” (car doors left open, covert surveillance, institutional ‘de-banking’ of Luigi) as pressure tactics (150:03–151:32, 196:14–197:49).
• Context of Skepticism and Vindication:
  • Stresses that skepticism is healthy; multiple corroborations from Knapp, Corbell, and others for Lazar’s presence at S4; addresses negative public attention and attacks on character as part of institutional “antibody” response (92:04–94:23).
  • Quote:
    • "Why would George Knapp risk his career to support a liar? Makes no sense to me." (93:00, Chris Matteo)

5. Scientific Deep-Dive: Bismuth, Anti-Gravity & Exotic Materials

• Nature of the Force:
  • Discussion with NASA’s Dr. Charles Buhler: New experimental results in anti-gravity using “gravitomagnetism” with bismuth and high-voltage capacitors, paralleling Lazar’s own lab observations (104:45–114:56).
  • “It could be another force—stop calling it gravity… It almost has to be.” (121:14, Bob Lazar)
  • “Have you measured this force?”
    “Yeah, yeah.” (163:59–164:13, Bob Lazar admitting present-day lab success.)
• Element 115 & Bismuth Connection:
  • Both have 5 valence electrons, suggesting a chemical and physical kinship; bismuth’s extreme diamagnetism, topological effects, and connection to “memory metal” (Nitinol) and “UFO artifacts” analyzed today by Gary Nolan and others (179:48–191:02).
• Ning Li, Townsend Brown, and Antigravity Lineage:
  • Parallels drawn between Lazar’s emitter setup and theoretical work on coherent electron spin alignment; detailed technical explanation of why it matters (183:53–185:54).
  • Quote: “There’s something about bismuth… that’s undiscovered.” (190:47, Bob Lazar)

6. Theories About Occupants, Origins, and Metaphysics

• Occupants:
  • Autopsy photo seen during briefings; details minimal—small, “teacup cut” in chest, single organ removed; reaction: “Give me a break—I was glancing through.” (172:56–173:38)
• Craft Retrievals:
  • Navy recovered the “sport model” at a (submerged) archaeological site; corroborates worldwide ocean “hotspots” for craft recovery (71:02–74:09).
• Nature of Beings and Craft:
  • Equally rates “alien” hypothesis, future humans, other dimensions, or unknowns; leans on Occam’s Razor toward aliens due to narrative and cultural familiarity (77:22–77:59).
• Time, Gravity, and Reality:
  • Project “Looking Glass” alludes to local time manipulation; strong sense that whatever this new force is, it directly ‘freezes movement,’ potentially time itself (103:25–123:31).
  • Quote:
    • "It almost feels like it had root access to reality itself—like it froze time." (121:14, Emily)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“Instead of playing with toys, I’d take apart clocks and things like that... I was just very inquisitive.”
—Bob Lazar (10:48)

“You can become proficient at using it. And I think that’s where we are. We had some knowledge of that, but I think... if we had developed that technology, we would have absolutely already seen it.”
—Bob Lazar (65:37)

"There’s something about bismuth… that’s undiscovered."
—Bob Lazar (190:47)

“It wasn’t exciting. It was really frightening.”
—Bob Lazar (56:08)

“It almost feels like it had root access to reality itself—like it froze time.”
—Emily (121:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic/Segment | Timestamp | |:----------------------------------------------|:--------------| | Childhood, Authority Issues | 10:48–11:44 | | Los Alamos job, building jet car, Teller | 17:19–21:25 | | EG&G Interviews, Recruitment to S4 | 35:41–38:04 | | S4 Arrival & Briefings | 43:12–47:17 | | Physical Structure of Craft/Anomalies | 51:42–53:05 | | Color, Material, Ominous Feel | 54:18–56:07 | | Emotional Impact, Test Flights | 56:08–64:10 | | “Bending Light,” Propulsion Physics | 61:12–62:23 | | Parallel Engineering Mandate | 44:18–45:16 | | Brain Control/Theory | 66:21 | | Element 115 Reactor, Golf Ball Experiment | 98:54–99:41 | | Gravity vs. New Force | 103:06–121:14 | | Autopsy Photo | 172:56–173:38 | | Bismuth, Topological Chemistry | 179:48–191:02 | | Security, Program Extraction, Cabal/Mob Anal. | 152:10–154:44 | | Stress, Heart Attacks, Social Cost | 192:35–193:07 | | Closure, Vindication, Future Hopes | 165:55–166:16 |

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Segment: Anecdotes, Debunks & Detractors

• Lazar repeatedly addresses accusations of falsifying credentials, loss of MIT record, and “touring” Los Alamos with George Knapp—all corroborated by witnesses and consistent technical descriptions (29:51–31:30).
• Insight into John Lear as complicated, no-filter “crazy friend”—sometimes blending fact and fantasy, often unhelpful (130:12–132:41).
• No clear evidence of legal retribution after whistleblowing; government/contractor “left hand doesn’t know what right is doing.” (141:38–142:51)

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Segment: Breakthrough Science & NASA Antigravity Convo (104:45–114:56)

• Unique, detailed technical exchange between Lazar and Dr. Charles Buehler (NASA) parallels Townsend Brown’s legacy, hints at “another force,” and discusses low-voltage, high-thrust results in the hundreds of micro/milli-newton range.
• Back-and-forth on physical test setups, voltages, effects in vacuum, and how standard physics “shouldn’t” allow what’s observed—both men excited by empirical anomalies.

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Segment: Psychological & Social Fallout

• Lazar and Luigi both recount personal and familial costs: anxiety, health issues, institutional sabotage—including forced “de-banking” and legal targeting (192:35–197:49).
• “I don’t like attention. I just want to hide in the corner and do my own thing.” (191:45)

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Final Takeaways

• Bob Lazar’s story remains both extraordinary and strangely consistent—even as public attitudes shift, official government statements now affirm UAPs, and “exotic craft” programs become a Congressional reality.
• Perhaps most striking is the deep resonance of technical patterns—from bismuth’s weird quantum behavior to the nexus of newly discussed “Sixth Force"/graviton science and NASA antigravity research.
• If real: Lazar may be this era’s canary in the coal mine—heralding a “stampede of revolutionary new science.”
• If not: his testimony is nonetheless a puzzle piece in the larger, true story of how secrecy, belief, and reality play out in America’s search for the unknown.

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Quotes to Remember

• “There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth’s protective layers.” (Neil Armstrong, as cited at 199:24)

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For anyone seeking an authoritative distillation of the American UFO mythology—from the technical to the conspiratorial and the personal—this conversation is essential listening, pulling together 40 years of rumors and bringing them to life with candor, skepticism, and awe.

Transcript

[Bob Lazar]

Gary and Mary Ruth, We've been working

[Chris Matteo]

on this story for a long time and we'll tell you right up front

[Logan]

that it's going to be hard to swallow at first.

[Narrator/Host]

In 1989, a soft spoken scientist in Nevada went on local television and said something that would baffle the world for the next three decades. He said that he had worked at a secret government facility called S4, just south of Area 51 in the Nevada desert, where his job, his actual job, was to reverse engineer the propulsion system of a craft. A craft that was not made by human hands. A flying saucer 53ft in diameter, no seams, rivets, panels, buttons, wiring or controls. Ladies and gentlemen, today's guest is the white whale of American alchemy. Guests, the enigmatic and ever elusive Bob Lazar.

[Bob Lazar]

Robert Lazar. Robert Lazar. Bob Lazar. Lazar. Bob Lazar.

[Emily]

Bob Lazar Lazar.

[Bob Lazar]

That Lazar dude freaked me the out man. Ooh, he's a freak.

[Narrator/Host]

Out Bob is basically a walking paradox, a human head spinner. He almost feels like an optical illusion of a person.

[Bob Lazar]

Back then, Area 51 meant nothing.

[Narrator/Host]

We've now heard a former Director of National Intelligence who oversaw all American intelligence agencies openly discuss a UFO tracking program housed at Area 51. Specifically, we've also seen past directors of the CIA, congressmen and women and whistleblowers across agencies endorsing the existence of a decades long multigenerational UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. But Bob is an anomaly. He's on an island. He's still the only person to have gone public claiming he worked directly on a craft of non human origin. We've speculated about his story for years. Today we get to talk to him directly.

[Bob Lazar]

They really wanted to see if they could affect the flow of time.

[Emily]

Did they have a stated purpose for?

[Bob Lazar]

No.

[Narrator/Host]

In this interview we get to ask him our most skeptical questions about his background, his education, his past, how he knows what he knows and why he hasn't been forced into silence.

[Emily]

John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job. Why do you think it didn't come up in a background check? There are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials. Did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as a liability?

[Narrator/Host]

But we also ask our most awe inspiring questions. We learn new details about where the craft he worked on was actually retrieved. We discussed the beings that may have occupied it, where they come from and what they want with humanity. We even learn about Bob's current home, laboratory experiments he's still investigating the gravity altering force he encountered while working on a flying saucer in the 80s. You heard me right. Bob is currently working on exotic UFO science in his personal lab.

[Emily]

How did the reactor work?

[Bob Lazar]

Through X rays, we were able to determine that there's a hollow tube.

[Narrator/Host]

But this interview gets even crazier than that. I surprise Bob with a scientist at NASA who's doing his own experiments on antigravity.

[Bob Lazar]

What kind of voltage are you using right now?

[Logan]

About 400 volts.

[Bob Lazar]

That's unbelievable.

[Narrator/Host]

I also had the honor of showing Bob legendary never before seen footage of a UFO at Area 51. People have been trying to get their hands on this specific footage for years.

[Emily]

Ready?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I'm going to the beginning.

[Chris Matteo]

Here we go.

[Bob Lazar]

Holy moly. Oh.

[Narrator/Host]

This interview spans multiple days with both Bob and filmmaker Luigi Vendettelli, the maker of S4 the Bob Lazar story. Luigi has spent four years working closely with Bob to depict exactly what he saw and worked on at S4 in vivid, hyper realistic detail.

[Chris Matteo]

We really, really paid attention to what Bob said throughout the entire time, so we didn't invent anything.

[Narrator/Host]

Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist. The man who helped reverse engineer a ufo, went public and lived to tell the tale. The original UFO whistleblower, Bob Lazar.

[Bob Lazar]

How is this possible?

[Narrator/Host]

Nothing too unusual.

[Bob Lazar]

Their existence cannot longer be denied.

[Narrator/Host]

We're living through the biggest transformation of the financial system in a hundred years, and most people are still using the same platforms their parents used. I started to investigate the financial space in 2012 because I genuinely believed that the fiat dollar system was broken. Not slightly broken, structurally, fundamentally broken. It's what you might call a long con or perhaps a Ponzi scheme. I started to believe that a transparent, decentralized alternative wasn't just possible, it was necessary. I've spent 13 years researching it, living it, talking to the most serious minds building it. Kraken is the platform I kept coming back to with my own money. So when we finally decided to bring on our first ever financial sponsor in four years of doing this show, we went to them because I've used the product and I already believed in what they're building. Every other investing platform is essentially the old system with a better app on top. Kraken is different at a foundational level. They've been operating since 2011 through every market crash, shout out Mount Gox, every industry collapse, every moment other platforms failed their users. And when everything went catastrophically wrong in this industry, the people responsible for making customers whole didn't go to the biggest names in finance. The they came to Kraken. On top of that, they publicly prove not promise, prove that every dollar you deposit is fully accounted for. Anyone in the world can verify it at any time. No fine print, no blind faith, just proof you can buy stocks in crypto in one place, earn better rewards than any investment account you've ever had, and send money anywhere in the world without those annoying fees your bank charges you for the exact same thing. Again, I've never taken on a financial platform as a sponsor in four years of this show. Having full control over your money shouldn't be about belief, it's the whole point. So go to kraken.com a to learn more and get $25 in Bitcoin. Again, that's kraken.comaaaa owning the power of your money isn't just a belief, it's the whole point. One of the main reasons I'm able to go multiple hours on these podcasts while staying mentally sharp is because of this little drink. It's a product I started using years ago and it's called Ketone iq. I know the founders, Jeff and Michael, personally, and I was thrilled when they agreed to sponsor the show because it's one of the few products I trust to give me clean, sustainable energy. I've been taking a little shot of this thing during every long recording and it lights my brain on fire. As you can see, Bob even took a shot during this one. The reason I keep coming back to these products is because I don't really do coffee. Coffee gives me a spike of energy and then at some point I get jittery and I crash. Ketone IQ is fundamentally different. It gives you clean, steady mental clarity with no crash and no jitters. Here's the science behind why it actually works. When you're running on glucose or sugar, as your brain is most of the time, it's essentially burning dirty fuel. Your brain could be like a Ferrari, but you're feeding it 87 octane fuel all the time. Ketones are what your brain actually prefers when it's operating at its best. Normally you'd have to fast for days in order for your body to switch from glucose to ketones. This little shot of Ketone IQ gives you the ketones directly, so your brain runs the way it's supposed to without any spikes or crashes. It was originally developed through a multi million dollar Department of Defense defense contract for Elite Cognitive Performance under stress. Bob Lazar probably could have used that at S4 so the same technology that's used by soldiers in high demand environments is now available to anyone in the form of this little drink. So visit ketone.comalchemy for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.comalchemy for a whole 30% off. Or find Ketone IQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free.

[Emily]

Bob Lazar, I don't even know what to say. This is a make a wish day for me. This is an absolute honor. I'm so grateful for you being here. I have so many questions for you because there are a lot of people who say they've seen things in the sky or they've had ephemeral experiences, sometimes even with beings. There are very few people who have consistently held to the exact same story over the last almost four decades now. And it involves working on a craft and essentially reverse engineering or parallel process engineering. What is a craft of non human origin? An exotic craft. And so you are really one of one. And I can't wait to dive in. And I just want to thank, before we start, Luigi Vendetelli, who is the amazing creator of this movie that you are in.

[Bob Lazar]

Physical evidence now exists which proves that there is life elsewhere, and at least one form of that life has been here.

[Emily]

I want to start with your childhood. And what was little Bob Lazar like?

[Bob Lazar]

I guess he was like a little scientist. I mean, I wasn't into sports at all. Still aren't. Instead of playing with toys, I take apart clocks and things like that that my parents had and put them back together. I was just very inquisitive.

[Emily]

Were you a rule breaker at all?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, for the most part. I really had a problem with authority. So I really didn't matter if it was my parents or teachers, whatever, telling me what to do. I said, I just don't recognize your authority. Tell me that I can't do what I'm doing. And, yeah, that's. That just seems to be part of my DNA.

[Emily]

Yeah, it seems to be a running theme in your life. So authority felt sort of arbitrary to you. It's like, why are you in a position to have any power?

[Bob Lazar]

Right, right, right. You're not even. You really don't even understand what I'm up to. And, you know, you're already trying to put the kibosh on it here, so. No, go. Go away and leave me alone.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you have any interest in UFOs, aliens, anything like that as a kid?

[Bob Lazar]

No, no, no. I thought that was all silly.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Now, I was always into science and science fiction. When I was a little kid, I watched, I think like five and six. I watched that. Oh, the Super Marination series like Fireball XL5 and Thunderbirds and you know, they were all like marionette shows, but they're all space and ghoul and rockets and you know, that this is all great, you know, that's what. And then later on, you know, Star Trek science fiction. Because it always looked like that it was just a prediction of the future to me. It didn't look like it was, you know, stuff that was never going to come true. It just looked like eventually this stuff's going to happen. And for the most part science fiction turns into science, given enough time, becomes science fact. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily]

Were there any inspiration sci fi wise that you felt had like a real impact on you as far as your, you know, what you were interested in as a kid?

[Bob Lazar]

You know, everybody my age, a boomer that's an engineer, doctor, scientist, whatever, they'll always point back to Star Trek and always give that a nod because that was so that was probably the biggest thing back there in the 60s and 70s.

[Emily]

Yep. And so where'd you grow up?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, I was born in Florida, but most of my growing up, you know, I was cognizant of what was going on. Was Long Island.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

New York. Yeah.

[Emily]

Interesting. You ended up at, at Pierce, Is that right? Or what was the, what was the kind of progression from.

[Bob Lazar]

I just moved around. Okay. You know, it depends where I was at the time when I went California and you know, on the east coast. So. Yep, it was, it was just location dependent, you know, as like I mentioned the other day, I moved so much. Yeah, yeah. It was almost like a military family.

[Emily]

Yeah. Was it, was it because your dad had jobs then he was switching around or what was it?

[Bob Lazar]

I really don't know what it was, but we just, we were just always moving.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Interesting. And you know, always having. Make new friends and, and whatnot. But I don't know, it was just the way it was. My father always did some weird things and strange things up his sleeve. So I don't know what's going on. Yeah, I think there was some potentially shady stuff going on in the, the background. So.

[Emily]

Interesting. Okay. What did he do professionally? Just like surface level?

[Bob Lazar]

He had, I know he had some connection to the mob at some point. I mean he had like a, a food business, wholesale food business, you know, that distributed food to grocery stores, you know, all over the place. But There was and big connection to racehorses. I mean, I remember when I was a little kid of the. What do they call it, harness racing? You know, where they sit in a little sulky behind the horse, little two wheeled contraption. You know, I remember those guys, the jockeys, riders, whatever you want to call them. But I remember, you know, playing in the living room and hearing those guys deciding who's going to win the race and things of that sort. So, I mean, I. I knew that there were some shady things going on and.

[Emily]

Yeah, whenever you have racehorses and tracks, there's often some.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Especially down in the, you know, early 70s and stuff. It couldn't. It couldn't be more corrupt.

[Emily]

Ye. Absolutely. You know, Interesting. Okay. And so he was involved in that, but maybe there was some other stuff kind of going on in the. In the background.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. And nothing where people are hurt or anything like that. You know, not. Not mob stuff, but.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. But you know, I mean, just some questionable things.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Never talked about.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

So, I mean, we did. We did move around a lot, but spent most of the time either in. Well, it really depends what year you know, I was somewhere.

[Emily]

And were. Were you into nuclear science as a kid as well, or just kind of like.

[Bob Lazar]

No, just science. I mean. Okay. My friends were. I had a friend whose dad was a chemistry professor, so, you know, we'd go and hang out with him and bring home chemicals and, you know, play with them. But it was. Yeah. From as young as I could possibly be, was always tinkering around with something science related. Yeah.

[Emily]

So at school, what was that like? You're this rebellious kid. You're into science. Did you hate school?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, because it's just interfering with my time. I want to get home and get back to tinkering with my stuff, you know, I don't. You know, you couldn't bore me any more than I was. I didn't want to go to a music class. I don't care what they're doing here and on, you know, everything. Social studies. I don't care who won what war. Just let me go home, you know, I've got other things I'd rather learn, but, you know, the classes that I was in that match my interest, I did well with, but everything else is a waste of my time.

[Emily]

What were you tinkering with at home?

[Bob Lazar]

Probably at that time? Probably electronics and chemistry. Okay.

[Emily]

And then how'd you get the job at Los Alamos?

[Bob Lazar]

At the time, I was working at Fairchild Electronics in Simi Valley, California, and I was Just tired and burnt out of that and just sent a resume to Los Alamos. But really laid heavily on the stuff. Not my work history, things that I did aside from work. I took my wife's little Honda, built a jet engine from scratch and put it in there then. In fact, that was one of the things I, you know, sent in a resume to him. Oh, by the way, I built this car. And yeah. When I moved there, the local paper put that on the front page because they thought that was really cool. And that's why most people remember me at that time, because I drove it to work at Los Alamos.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

In fact, they yelled at me for, you can't run the jet coming into the lab because it scares the. Out of everybody.

[Emily]

How fast would the car go?

[Bob Lazar]

212.

[Emily]

Jesus.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. On. That car is super dangerous. I would never do that.

[Emily]

That's insane.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, but.

[Emily]

So you're putting like a Bugatti engine on a Honda Civic and you're like.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, in a way. Yeah.

[Emily]

Unbelievable.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. It's silly. But you're stupider when you're in your 20s. Yeah.

[Emily]

Well, what was your top speed?

[Bob Lazar]

212.

[Narrator/Host]

Yours was 212.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

You went 212.

[Bob Lazar]

El Mirage Dry Lake in California.

[Narrator/Host]

You're insane.

[Bob Lazar]

Maybe, but that's how fast the car went.

[Emily]

But the Honda Civic is not set up for the. The jet engine that you put on, like.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, it was after I put it in there.

[Emily]

Oh, so you helped with the suspension.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Stuff you improved.

[Bob Lazar]

Wow. Yeah.

[Emily]

That's impressive, man. That's cool.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, while working at Los Alamos national lab in 1982, the local newspaper did a front page story on a jet

[Chris Matteo]

car I had built.

[Bob Lazar]

Coincidentally, Dr. Edward Teller was giving a speech at Los Alamos that same day.

[Emily]

So Edward Teller, for the audience, was the creator of the hydrogen bomb.

[Bob Lazar]

Coincidentally, that same day, on paper, if you turn over the front sheet, was the advertisement for Ed Teller coming the next day. Wow. Giving a lecture, you know, at the lab. So.

[Emily]

So he go. You go to a. Like a talk he gives or something?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, he was about to give a talk. I got there early. He's sitting outside reading the paper because the door was locked. So that's. I. I wanted to go super early, too, because I thought maybe it's going to be crowded or whatever. He's reading the front page of the paper because. Or else I really didn't know how to go and say anything, but I went, oh, it's the perfect segue. He's already reading about Me. So I was like, hi, Ed, I'm the guy you're reading about there.

[Emily]

What was Edward Teller like?

[Bob Lazar]

He's a grumpy old man. It's the only way I could describe him.

[Emily]

Did he have any sort of distinct accent?

[Bob Lazar]

Of course. I'd tell her, yeah, eyebrows and. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he looked exactly like himself.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. And so what was the conversation like? Are you like, hey, that. You know, that's me. And then what did he. What did he say?

[Bob Lazar]

Ah, he said, well, that's. That's fascinating. But, you know, I. I can't remember it verbatim, but he said, but it is grossly impractical. I said, yeah, it's not made to be a practical, you know, mode of transportation. And then we only spoke for a short time, and then you can hear the door unclick, swing open, and a guy greeted him, oh, Mr. Teller. And so they brought him in, and, you know, that was that. But as time went on, I made reference to that meeting when I sent him a resume after I had moved on from Los Alamos, and he remembered me, and that's who directed me to EG and G. How this all started to go to S Forum.

[Emily]

Have you ever seen there's a video of Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

It's really funny because he, first of all, he goes into. He's being questioned on nuclear propulsion, and he, like, doesn't want to get into it. It's very clear. And then he's questioned on you, and he has the exact same reaction.

[Chris Matteo]

It is, in my opinion, not interesting.

[Emily]

I don't intend to answer it. If you ask me that question on

[Bob Lazar]

camera, I will shut up.

[Emily]

I will sit.

[Bob Lazar]

Silence.

[Logan]

You're not going to get an answer

[Bob Lazar]

out of me on that.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Emily]

And if I ask you on camera,

[Bob Lazar]

if you know Bob Lazar, can you

[Emily]

just say, no, I will sit silently?

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, I spoke to the guy before he went and interviewed Teller. He was one of Teller's students. And he said, you know, I'm going to bring up you to tell her. And I went, that would be awesome. And it would be awesome to see how fast he denies me, you know, and he did immediately.

[Emily]

But he denied you in the same way. First he goes, yeah, technically you could get, you know, a real power source from nuclear and basically implying he knows a lot about it, but he's not going to talk about it.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I think he said, yeah. Is there anything other than fission or fusion?

[Emily]

That's right.

[Bob Lazar]

No, nothing. That anybody would be interested about. Yeah, but there's total annihilation, you know, and. Yeah, he just completely discounted that. Which is interesting for Teller.

[Emily]

Do you think that he's talking about. Because you talk about this 115, you

[Bob Lazar]

had a. I don't know if that's

[Emily]

what he was referring to. And then you get this matter antimatter annihilation thing.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know if that what it was referring to. But he's also, but he's clearly not addressing the most powerful nuclear reaction there is. And why would he do that?

[Emily]

And he's clearly also denying the nuclear knowledge in the same way that he's denying his link to you, which to me is such a tell that he obviously met you.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's really weird that he would do that.

[Emily]

And so you were at Los Alamos and were you working with other physicists at the time or what was your main kind of like day to day responsibility there?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, it, it, it changed. I did some. I was building, I think this was for the particle accelerator. They wanted to be able to trim the voltage to a very fine degree. So I was building some high voltage power supplies, stuff that's insulated by fiber optics so you can make adjustments, you know, from a distance without interfering with, you know, the electric fields or anything. And day to day there was just maintenance on the targets and experiments we were doing. So it's cryogenics and, you know, dealing with high power magnets and I mean, what else? Radioactive materials. Yeah, you know, Los Alamos stuff. Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to remember what I did every day. But it was not, it was. There was no really regular routine. You know, we'd either be working on getting ready to do an experiment. So we'd be working on, you know, the detection equipment.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Or setting up the experiment. And it all had to do with, you know, the output of the accelerator and adjusting that.

[Emily]

So this was a particle accelerator?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Oh, interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. It's a half mile long linear accelerator in Los Alamos. Oh, cool. And the beam splits off, it comes down and it, it splits off into different experimental areas. So you can conduct a whole bunch of different experiments, you know, just from one, one beam. And they can put different things in the targets to make different. And go different directions. And depending on the speed of the particle going by and its spin and how long it's in transit, you can calculate its mass and, you know, backtrack and then put things together. And, you know, analogy I always gave was it's it's like if you wanted to analyze a Swiss watch but you really couldn't look inside, but so you could take it and throw it as hard as you can at a concrete wall and then it busts apart and all the pieces go flying off.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, by looking at those pieces, you could backtrack everything. You could see if one was spinning a certain direction and you know, the rotation and how fast it came off, then you know the mass of it, if it was turning before, and by the angles, you can put it back there and eventually you can reassemble the thing and see how it was made just from the particles flying apart. So essentially what an accelerator does is smash something apart and then we can figure how it all goes together just by monitoring those particles.

[Emily]

It's so cool.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's what I did at Los Alamos.

[Emily]

Did you, did you get the sense that there were two branches of science, science that was a little more classified and then public science?

[Bob Lazar]

No, not at that.

[Emily]

Not at that point.

[Bob Lazar]

Not at that point.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I thought we were all on the same level.

[Emily]

Yeah. Now I know you can't say why they erased you from mit. And there are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials. You have very good, I think, reason that at least passes. You know, Joe Rogan and some other people who. I really trust their sniff test.

[Bob Lazar]

He said that he was working on something for the government at, and they sent him to MIT to learn something.

[Emily]

But I will ask you, is there anything you can say, high level, that hints at why you can't talk about why you were at mit?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, I was sent there. Okay. And if you're sent like there for a specific reason, maybe to do some classified research or work.

[Emily]

Yep. It's going to be off the books.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I mean, but it's also. You also can't talk about it because it's still. I mean, look, the government's never going to come and prosecute me for, at least I hope not for releasing information about S4, but assuming I was working on a weapons system, that's always, that's still covered under the security agreement. And at this point in my life, I just don't want to make any waves.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I think that's very reasonable. It's also, I should note, and this is me talking and not you. MIT Long is a university, you know, affiliated research center, it's called the U arc and they do all sorts of classified stuff. You Know, they have a. Yeah, yeah. Super Soldier program. They're, you know, we're always at the forefront of nanotechnology. And so the idea that.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, anything I would have potentially been working on wouldn't be so outlandish as Super Soldiers or it'd be just very conventional.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, but still classified material. Yeah, I think.

[Emily]

I think. I think it's just helpful because this stuff is circulating out there, and, you know, the idea that you would get sent to that school specifically and work on something that you can't talk about.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay, I would have gotten.

[Emily]

Theoretically, hypothetically. Yeah, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

You got sent there.

[Emily]

If I got sent there, you know, I. Yeah, there's a very clear possibility I wouldn't be able to talk about it, and I'd be working on some classified stuff.

[Chris Matteo]

If you wanted to hire a guy

[Bob Lazar]

who could think clearly out of the

[Logan]

box and help solve problems, but who

[Bob Lazar]

could be discredited if you needed to do that.

[Chris Matteo]

Bob was probably the best person in

[Logan]

the country at the time. He was perfect for it.

[Emily]

George Knapp was originally this very instrumental part of Breaking youg story. In 1989. As part of KLAS, did you. You took him to Los Alamos, Is that right? At some point, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I told him all this Los Alamo stuff, and I said, well, let's go there. I'll show you. And security was a little more lax back then, so we got in a plane and just rented a car. And, you know, at that time, everyone I knew still worked there, so. Including the guards were getting in. Hey, Bill. Bob, you're back. You know, and so we're in. And, you know, just took charge everywhere. There's my desk. Here's this. And, you know, walk in here. And I still knew combinations to places. Why?

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Lazar]

I'm sure it was not all 100% legal, but, yeah, George just walked around, filmed everything, spoke to people that I worked with, and he said, all right, we can check that box off. And then we went back.

[Emily]

Yeah. And so. Because also, you know, again, I want to address some of these, like, detracting comments circulating online. There are people who are like, oh, he just quizzed the physicists, you know, at Los Alamos, but he really had some other job there or something. First of all, like, your description of a particle accelerator and how to actually detect subatomic particles, I think was, you know, first class. And then second, you have a guy in George Knapp, which you are. You have to either accuse him of some sort of collusion or something in his orientation towards you or Admit that you showed him around. People knew. I mean, you know, he saw it. Yeah, yeah. And clearly he was trying to suss you out by asking you to invite him, Right? Presumably.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I just don't pay attention to the detractors and the nonsense. I mean, yeah, to me, we're. We're past that now. I never met Dr. Teller again, but in 1988, when I decided to re. Enter the scientific community, I sent him a resume and inquired about a job. Dr. Teller responded by telephone and told me that he was no longer active, but just functioned in a chief consultant capacity. He gave me the name of a contact to call in Las Vegas. I made that call and things progressed from there until I got into the program at S4.

[Emily]

And so you send him the resume and he remembers you somehow and which.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, because I made mention of the jet car in Los Alamos.

[Emily]

And then. And then he sends your resume to EG and G and then you get a job there.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't. I don't know if he sent it. He. When he did reply to me, he. He gave me information, contact information for EG and G. So I don't know if he. He said, or just have a look at this young man or something like that, or. Or if he did send the res. I don't know what happened behind the scenes.

[Emily]

Did you know anything about EG and G at the time or.

[Bob Lazar]

I know they did measurements. They did all the. I mean, those are the guys that came out and figured how to, you know, photograph, you know, an exploding nuclear bomb without it getting overexposed. They did all kinds of things, make giant flash tubes so you can photograph cities from bombers and. And stuff. So that's about all I knew. I knew they were just, you know, a contractor that did weird stuff for the government, but, you know, leaning heavily in the nuclear testing area.

[Emily]

It's a company that is the namesake of Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty,

[Bob Lazar]

actually, and Edgerton, Grimmerhausen and Greer.

[Emily]

There you go.

[Bob Lazar]

Many types of cameras will be in use. The most important are fast packs which operate up to 9,000 frames per second and expose their entire footage in a

[Emily]

fraction of a second. Have you looked at any of the other? You know, obviously you're really into nuclear. And then you worked on UFOs. There's this amazing book that I always cite that I'm sure you're aware of, Luigi, called UFOs and nukes by a friend of mine named Robert Hastings. And he talks about UFOs, like Tic Tacs, saucers. Orbs, all these different shapes and sizes of UFOs showing up at nuclear bases all across the US certainly heard that. Isn't that interesting there? And there are 167 whistleblowers who are on what's called the PRP program, where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen because they're guarding the crown jewels of American defense.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, really?

[Emily]

167 of these guys.

[Bob Lazar]

Wow. Yeah, there's really 167 of those guys.

[Emily]

167 of these guys. It's really wild.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, that's.

[Chris Matteo]

That's incredible. I mean, that should be investigated further. And I. I'm sure it is, but not publicly. But they're. I mean, you're talking about nuclear sites. If you're talking about nuclear sites, you are at the very core of national security.

[Emily]

So my point is, is if you're doing the photography of that early on, you've gotta have some asymmetric knowledge of UFO stuff. That would be my guess.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. They were the guys documenting and photographing everything from every angle, from everywhere.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

So if in fact, all that stuff was going on, EG&G had to catch something.

[Narrator/Host]

Totally.

[Emily]

And EG&G, it keeps coming up for me too, in my own investigations even. There's this thing called the, you know, the Wilson Davis memo, where the scientist who actually lives in Austin, his name is Eric Davis, meets with the head of J2 Joint Chiefs who, under whose purview is all military technology, a guy named Admiral Thomas Wilson. And they're in the parking lot of EG&G and Thomas Wilson is like, furious that he doesn't have oversight over this specific corporate program which seems to be reverse engineering exotic UFO material. So you get a job at EG&G. What's your first touch point there? And, and so you, you have a little bit of context.

[Bob Lazar]

But yeah, I originally went in there. I didn't know what the job was, but they interviewed me for that. And somewhere in the middle of it they said, you know, we actually have a different job that we're thinking of plugging you into now. I think I went to the bathroom and when I came back, they said, we're changing channels. We think we have. And I think so. I don't know if they were Both something at S4 or something else is going to be for EG and G or the Department of Naval Intelligence. And then they thought maybe S4 would be a, you know, a better fit. I don't know what, again, what went on behind the scenes. But there were two jobs there and they decided I'd be better off with the second one. And the second one was S4 out at the Papoose Lake area.

[Narrator/Host]

And what, what were they screening for?

[Emily]

Like what, what do you think they were asking you and trying to get at? And then when you go to the bathroom, why do they, I don't know, shift? And they say this guy is actually gonna, the, the, the, that UFO thing we're stuck on. This guy's gonna break it wide open. He could be a good.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Hire there.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know what they said. I think they were stuck and I think they, they were, they kept, you know, just because of the way the place is arranged, they kept trying to attack the problem from the same direction all the time, you know, which is only going to yield the same result. In fact, if you expect it, anything else, you're nuts. That's the definition of crazy, right? Doing the same thing and expecting different results. But yeah, most of their questions was not about my technical knowledge or work experience. It was what I did after work and the projects I've built. Why did you do that? And I think they were just looking at, trying to find somebody that was outside of the box.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And I think that's where I fit because before that you had really straight laced scientists, physicists, technicians, you know, that abided by the rules and all that. And they look, we need a little push from another direction. And I mean, it's my guess, I think that's why they popped me in

[Emily]

there at that point. Do you have any idea what you're getting yourself into?

[Bob Lazar]

No, no, but you know, they said it's at a remote area and the work hours can vary. Some people are out there for two weeks on, one week off. Yeah, some people and you know, depends if they're married or not or anything and you know, can spend that much time out there. Some people only go out three days a week and you know, so. And some people are just on call and you know, for the time being it would probably just probably need you sporadically going out there on call and you know, till we get you up to speed and do you have any problems with traveling? I said no, no, no, you know, so I thought, wow, if it's out in the desert, it's probably. I thought it was the only thing I knew about the desert was at that time it's a nuclear test site. So I thought, I thought it was weapons related and you know, specifically nuclear weapon related. And I was going to be at The. You know, the nuclear test site at somewhere stationed near Mercury. The way it worked was they'd call me at random days and they'd say, Mr. Lazard is now such and such time. We need you to come out today. So I'd go out there, I drive out to EG&G, special projects, which was right in McCarran Airport at that time. I'd go through a little security there and then out on the tarmac and board one of the jet flights. They were only used by the government for going back and forth to the Test site way. 363, Las Vegas Tower, Runway 260 right. Line up away traffic downfield. Yeah, we just took off and landed. And I still thought I was at the. You know, I didn't know it. I was at Area 51.

[Emily]

Yep. And you land at Area 51?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. And first of all, at that time, Area 51 meant nothing. It's just. This is known as Area 51, okay, as all the. All the, you know, the test sites split up into areas. It's area two, area five. So it's 51. Okay.

[Emily]

At what point do you go to S4?

[Bob Lazar]

You know, these. I've told the story so much, and it's been so long, all the days kind of mix and infuse into one now. So I can't separate what you did on that day. What'd you do on the third day? I don't know, you know, of course, but I don't think we drove down on the first day. I think it was just a paperwork and stuff day. But the second day for sure, we drove down, got in the bus, and it was a long, bumpy ride. And the windows were blacked out on the bus, and it was just a navy blue painted bus. And it seemed like we went south. By the time we got there, got off the bus, I mean, the sun was setting to my right.

[Emily]

And then what happens next?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, I mean, when. You mean when I got there?

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, that's where we. Dennis led me in.

[Emily]

And who's Dennis? For the audience, I guess you can

[Bob Lazar]

call him my supervisor. But he was kind of my shadow and everything. He was just attached to me.

[Emily]

This is Dennis Mariani.

[Bob Lazar]

Dennis Mariani, Yeah.

[Emily]

And so he leads you in?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, he leads me in. There's a. There's a guard there. We get past him. And then they had to train the hand reader to give me a card to open the doors. So that's the first time I saw that hand scanner. I get the card he shows me this. You swipe on the door and it records every time you come in and out and do everything.

[Emily]

And is there a bodyguard or like.

[Bob Lazar]

No, no. Once you're in the room with the scanner, there's nothing. There's just a door you open up. But it's just a really long. Yeah, really long corridor and just kind of. It's not modern, looks old. It's just painted cinder block with light green and dark green. Kind of looked my old kindergarten or something.

[Emily]

It's this vast expanse. And is all of it underground or in a mountain or.

[Bob Lazar]

It's kind of on the side of a mountain.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, it's. So the hangars are right on the side or it's a hill, I guess. What. However you want to describe it.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

So the hangers are there and then the Carter is in back of the hangers. So that gives you hangar access. And there were nine hangars, so. And they're fairly big. So that explains why the corridors were so long.

[Emily]

And so you're in there, you see this vast expanse. Then what happens?

[Bob Lazar]

We went to review the briefings first. So that was off to the right. We came in, there was a desk there had. Somebody had already laid out all the briefings, which were summaries of the projects going on. So they didn't go in depth, but in case your project connected to some of these in some way, you had to have a brief overview of what else was going on. Project Galileo was the first, you know, the first briefing on there.

[Emily]

And that was your project.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And then. But you had other briefings as well.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

And.

[Logan]

And.

[Emily]

And that was Project Looking Glass.

[Bob Lazar]

Looking Glass, and what else?

[Emily]

Sidekick and Sidekick. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I imagine you take most interest in Galileo, but you also look through looking glass and sidekick, Is that right?

[Bob Lazar]

But Galileo dealt with the propulsion system of the craft and the directives that are given. There were two primary directives. Is one, to duplicate the propulsion system or components thereof with available materials. Available Earth materials, it said. And directive two was to be able to remotely disable the operation of the system. And some. I don't know how it was worded somewhere the word at all costs was in there. So that was really a high priority. But they wanted to. They certainly wanted to duplicate it, but they really wanted to disable it.

[Emily]

I do think that's an important distinction in the mandate of the program. It's to. Not necessarily reverse engineer, but to parallel engineer, find ways to, with terrestrial, normal, prosaic engineering, build. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Or come up with a Hybrid system, Something. Yeah. I mean, the bottom line is we want to produce the effects this machine is having. So just do it in any. Yeah.

[Emily]

However you can.

[Bob Lazar]

Just. Yeah, just do it.

[Emily]

Which makes sense, given the skill set they seem to take interest in with you, because you are this outside of the box thinker.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You're not this prim and proper traditional academic or something, who does not want to break rules, who might be extremely high iq, but isn't necessarily rebellious in the way they think they think within these sort of narrow confines they're given.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, they were just looking to come at another angle and maybe we can, you know, uncover something.

[Emily]

And. And just for the audience, what is Sidekick and what is Project Looking Glass?

[Bob Lazar]

Sidekick was the weapon potential of the craft. The craft, if you're familiar with it, has three of the emitters on the bottom, look like large trash cans, and they send out the gravity waves or whatever form of energy is. But, excuse me, Sidekick dealt with using those to focus a particle beam to stop it from diverging. So there was. It. It appeared to be there. There was some sort of weapon potential of doing that.

[Emily]

Like a directed energy.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Weapon.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I think it was a particle weapon. So I don't know where. What the source was, but that's. That's just what the briefing contained in it.

[Emily]

And are you given any other context before reading these documents?

[Bob Lazar]

No.

[Emily]

And when you're reading these documents, what. What's going through your.

[Bob Lazar]

No, I mean, some of the stuff in there was just nonsense. I mean, and you wonder, like, what's like a test? You know, there is stuff like, you know, the aliens had made 65 corrections to, you know, in the Evolution of Humans and things. And as Barry explained to me, he said, look, they keep everything classified here, but if somebody says something and they hear it on the grapevine, they said, yeah, they've got a disk, an alien craft down at the test site. They don't know where it comes from, but everybody that they give briefings or information to, they put unique nonsense information there. So, like, if I had said anything, they, you know, said, yeah, there's flying saucers down there. And aliens made 65 corrections. They go, lazar's the guy that.

[Emily]

Yep, that.

[Bob Lazar]

So that's. I think they put it in there to attach to a person. You know, he got this. And they make it something enticing to say.

[Emily]

So you go through these briefings. What happens next?

[Bob Lazar]

At some point, I went to the nurse who. It was the only female that was there. She. She said, you know, we have to do an allergen test. And I guess they had a bunch of samples from different materials. They drew a little grid on my arm and then just pricked them and, you know, waited for a reaction. They gave me something to drink, which is supposedly supposed to boost my immune system. It was, you know, a deep orange, yellow color. And I think that was because the vitamin B was in there. And I could. I can taste that because it's really a nasty taste.

[Emily]

What did it taste like?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, like a vitamin B solution.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

But it did. But it also had a pine taste to it. But anyway, that was that. I wasn't allergic to anything, as it turned out. And eventually get it go in and was introduced to Barry, who's going to be my lab partner. And, you know, from what I understand, I was replacing somebody that he worked with.

[Emily]

What was Barry like?

[Bob Lazar]

Barry? I don't know. How would you describe Barry? Barry was very enthusiastic. Yeah, he was really happy I was there and really excited to show me stuff. But clearly a lot had been done before I got there. If this was new, everything would be white. Right. Everybody would be in. You know, I mean, you always want labs and everything white. In case you see a little speck of dust or a part falls somewhere, you can identify them. You wouldn't have, you know, wooden lamp or lab benches and things like that. You'd probably have people in full respirator suits if they're just beginning. But these guys had reached a point where it was nonchalant, where they were. They were touching, you know, working with this stuff. And, you know, it really wasn't a thing as if they were taking apart a car engine. So they had made a lot of progress and they weren't afraid of what they were working with, although we were plenty afraid of the reactor.

[Emily]

And. And you, at no point were you like, this could be some like, you know, anti gravity secret program that, you know, I just wasn't cleared to. No. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, initially when I first saw it, I went, oh, that's what this whole thing's about. You know, it's. It's just. It's just our new fighter and it looks like a flying saucer. So that's why people believe in flying saucers, because they see these new fighters flying around, you know, but, yeah, it became quickly obvious that that wasn't the case. Like, we have no idea how the thing works. It does stuff that's physically impossible. And there's no country in the world could make something like that or have the power density that it has it's in inconceivable. So to, you know, to, to affect space and time. Think of another country was able to build something like that. The United States wouldn't exist.

[Chris Matteo]

You know, to anybody who, who's a detractor, who doesn't. Who could think maybe this was a US object, something man made or something that they put there as a prop. Some people would say, do you think they were trying to deceive Lazar or other people and all that? There's. Because I built it. There's one physical aspect of it that is impossible to build, period. A hundred percent not possible is it's as far as. If we have to consider it being a 52, almost 53 foot diameter craft. The main level, which is the level that Bob was able to access and at one point stand up in the middle of that main level is in the center of the disc. And there is nothing that was visually witnessed on the bottom level when he peaked. That is a supporting column holding that 53 foot diameter floor. We have nothing on earth. There is no material.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, that's, that's the first I've ever heard of that angle. That's, that's really interesting.

[Chris Matteo]

That's because I built it.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I think you know more about the

[Chris Matteo]

craft at this point because of the thickness of the floor that we could see. Because of the lip of the access way, we could see the thickness of the floor. Also where the honeycomb hatchway is, you could see the thickness of the floor.

[Bob Lazar]

That thing.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

52ft diameter.

[Chris Matteo]

There is nothing with no central support that would not be doing boring like this and maybe and potentially collapse. There's nothing. We have nothing.

[Emily]

That's, that's a completely unique structural anomaly.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Good job, Luigi. Yeah, yeah. No, I never, never even entertained that.

[Emily]

That's fascinating.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, that's, that's, that's great. But that's, that's a hundred percent true. Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

There's nothing that can do that.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

That's so interesting. What is the color of the craft itself?

[Bob Lazar]

It's kind of a pewter stainless looking, but it's. Luigi and I were talking about this the other day. Looks different close up than it does far away.

[Emily]

Describe how so.

[Bob Lazar]

Geez, I wish I could. I've tried to describe this a lot and what's interesting is that I, my friend Gene Huff, who was my kind of confidant at the time and you know, I tell him about this stuff and I said, you know, one of the weirdest things is if you're if you're close to it, you know, looks like the craft and it. And when you go get far away, it doesn't look right. It looks more like a cartoon. And so Luigi spending two and a half or three years modeling this and getting it, and sure as hell, whatever they did, Luigi will probably best tell you about that. When they take the camera and they put it in the hangar and look at it close up, it looks like it should. And if they back it off, it doesn't look. Look the same. It looks. So they were able to, whether intentionally or accidentally, kind of duplicate it. I mean, they've got the model so close that it has. It's taken on some of the characteristics of the actual craft.

[Emily]

And there's a part of the craft that you describe as blacker than black. Is that right? Yeah. What is that?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. You know what they call the portholes around the top, which are, I do not believe are portholes. You know what? I think there's a black ring that goes around the top part of the craft, and we call that the insulator ring above that. I have no idea what's in that top section, but that's where these small, square, rectangular holes are around. They are assumed to be like some sort of planar array where there is something similar to a computer in the top section. Those arrays determine whether it's looking at starlight or whatever. It determines its place in space. But they. They don't look black. They look so black. It's. And it's not just vant black at all. They almost look like bottomless pits in there. But I know they're solid. I mean, Barry told me they're solid. I guess. I don't know. Barry claimed they're solid. So to be technical, I don't know for a fact, I mean, but I still think there's some kind of sensors. But it, It's. That is some unusual material. And when you go in there and look at the craft, it's a real ominous, creepy feeling. And a lot of it is because of the black. Just, it doesn't. It doesn't look right.

[Emily]

Did anybody else say that, that going into the craft gave them an ominous feeling?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, he did say it was. It was definitely unnerving, I think was his word.

[Emily]

Looking at those and just being in the craft generally, was that like a kind of ubiquitously known thing at S4, like you all did that thing?

[Bob Lazar]

I didn't hear that from anybody, but it certainly was for me.

[Emily]

Interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Because the first thing you think, boy, that must have Been so exciting. And yeah, from an outsider it might be. But no, when you're really there, it wasn't exciting. It was really frightening.

[Emily]

And you walked around what looked like the cockpit of this thing.

[Bob Lazar]

First of all, you can't just walk in. It's much smaller and narrower than you think. You have to crawl in and you really can't stand up until you're almost right in the center. So it doesn't have really. It's really all unusable space. Even if you're a small creature, there's a lot of unusable space in there. And you know, because everything seemed to have a critical function to it, I'm sure there was nothing for decoration. There's a reason to have all that space and the reason the craft is shaped like that. But there were three things that look like seats. We called them seats. Other humps, large rectangular, smooth objects in there. There were three of those. We know those to be the amplifiers. They work with the, with the reactor. That amplifies the gravity wave and it's, you know, channeled to the emitter, which is right under the amplifiers. Again, we just called the seats because they look like seats. It would be, I think it would be funny if it turned out that they were not seats at all. Yet another component we just knew nothing about.

[Chris Matteo]

Bob always found it to be really weird that when the waveguide is applied right on top of the reactor, these two guys, they're looking out. There's one of the archways that become transparent. So he believes that maybe that is where they're looking. But this guy here is staring at a pipe.

[Emily]

Oh, the, the archway becoming transparent is so they can see.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Oh, it's so interesting. I never like made that connection.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, they're looking at it. Oh, and there's a screen, the blue

[Emily]

screen with the symbol, with the like Korean, like language. Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

And then I, I've always thought, and I thought maybe they all become transparent. Maybe the whole arch, like the whole, all the archways can become transparent. What, why, why would it only be one? Because so dark in there.

[Emily]

Fascinating. And you saw a translucent, like almost Korean looking symbols, is that right?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I saw the wall become translucent and at some point saw some kind of what I would call symbols.

[Chris Matteo]

But

[Bob Lazar]

not on a, in a three dimensional way. Not on a flat screen or anything like that.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

Explain how you saw it. Because you were explaining it to me yesterday.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

It wasn't like it was a scre. It was just like it was a three dimensional character sitting almost like a Projection, you said?

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, he was explaining it to me yesterday, because he explained it actually better yesterday than before I produced it. And you were saying it felt it looked almost like a projection.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. No, it wasn't a projection or it was on something. It was just a three dimensional thing in the air.

[Emily]

Describe the day that you saw this thing fly.

[Bob Lazar]

It was already out. Barry and I were in the lab, and then Dennis came in and he said, hey, why don't you guys come? We're doing a test flight, you know, oh, this is great. So we go out through the lab door right into the hangar. It was already outside, sitting on the ground. And shortly after we got out there, oh, I did notice there was a radio. And I mentioned this in Luigi's movie, a VHF radio. And they're in communication, so made me almost positive that there was somebody in the craft.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know how. Where they'd be sitting or how they would. Why they're even in the craft. Because it's like I said, it's so uncomfortable and usable space. They'd have to be hunched up or trying to sit on the edge of one of those seats. So that put aside.

[Emily]

So you think they put a person in there because.

[Bob Lazar]

I think so, because they were communicating back and forth.

[Emily]

Did you hear a voice?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Whoa.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emily]

So you heard a voice coming from the craft?

[Bob Lazar]

No, from the radio.

[Emily]

From the radio. From the VHF radio, but presumably coming from the craft.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. So he was monitoring. I mean, they must have had some other instrumentation set up in the crafts because he was monitoring something.

[Emily]

Do you remember what the voice that was? It just.

[Bob Lazar]

Not a thing. But it was something because, I mean, I was more stuck on the fact that how is a radio way of getting into the craft? This doesn't even make any sense, VHF

[Emily]

being very high frequency.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I mean, it should be distorted by the gravity wave going around it.

[Emily]

It.

[Bob Lazar]

Anyway, shortly after, the craft began to lift off the ground silently, had a little corona discharge glow on the bottom, and lifted off and drifted up into the sky and kind of moved around. During that test flight, Dennis motioned for me to come out and, you know, look up at it. And then he told me to walk forward. And the craft was just sitting there stationary. And I walked out underneath it, and he motioned for me to look up. I looked up and I couldn't see the craft, so I thought it flew away. And then he said, you know, come back. And, you know, I. I walked back. And as I walked back, it caught my attention. I see the edge of the, the craft. So if you move, you can see it and if you walk underneath it, you can't. So you can clearly see it's, it's bending the light. You can see the sky above the craft. So you can see that it's in its little envelope and then it kind of slid over to the left and right and then sat back down.

[Emily]

Is what you saw. Did it look like what we talk about when we talk about UFO videos and what we, you know, it's just like, look at the, you know, nimitz, you know, 2004 FLIR video or, or even some of the, maybe a better example, some of the optical videos which are often grainy and fuzzy and maybe that's due to gravitational lensing or some sort of space time perturbation due to these effects that you're talking about. But when you're seeing this craft fly, are you thinking this is the UFO stuff that's like in the lore?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You are?

[Logan]

Wow.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, for sure. I'm just. Because of the way that it can move, it can just negate. I mean, it's, I really don't know how to describe it. I mean, things like inertia really don't matter to just. It gets away with murder when it, when it comes to flying.

[Emily]

Did you ever think we are being tasked to figure out this reactor? Even like, you know, the shape of the craft is sort of really confusing to us. How the hell do they know how to fly this thing? Yeah, yeah, that goes through your head. Like you're like, are you?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, like I said, you know, clearly they've, they've had a lot of time.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

With this craft already, it could have been decades for all I know. So they're familiar with it. So I mean, they knew the emitters have to be rotated to couple to the reactor. I mean, they knew how to fly it. So these guys were somewhat proficient with it.

[Emily]

So it would be your kind of base case assumption that now we have functional what you might call alien reproduction vehicles or UFOs that humans can fly. If in 1987, 88, you had stuff that was, you know, we could at least test and you could go under them and stuff, then you would think that now we're probably, probably made much more progress, I assume, or what, what do you think?

[Bob Lazar]

I do not think so, no.

[Emily]

You don't think so?

[Bob Lazar]

No.

[Emily]

So you think we're, we can test these things and use them in rudimentary ways, but we don't understand how they work?

[Bob Lazar]

Though, you know, analogy I. I gave, you know, you can go back to the 1800s and drop off a motorcycle.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Bob Lazar]

With the keys in it. And, you know, you can look at it and go, wow, that's never seen anything like that before. And look at the plastic fenders on it. And, wow, that's unusual material. And, you know, there's the key. And eventually, if you tinker with it long enough, someone's going to turn the key and it's going to start, start, and they're going to go, okay, we turn it off. And. All right, that's on and off. And, you know, eventually, just given time and human ingenuity, they're going to get it, throttle's here. And they'll become proficient at driving it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

But when it runs out of fuel, we're done. And when it comes right down to it, they can't even make that plastic fender.

[Narrator/Host]

Right.

[Bob Lazar]

So. Yeah. So you can become proficient at using it. And I think that's where we are. We had some knowledge of that, but I think. I think if we had developed that technology, we would have absolutely already seen it. We wouldn't be wasting one minute building a conventional fighter or other. Why. Why would you. And they say, oh, well, it's secret. Yep. So jet engines were secret when we first came out with them, and we built a whole fleet. You know, we. We'd absolutely divert every resource we had to duplicating these things.

[Emily]

Do you guys think there's any chance that the craft is flown with somebody's mind, some sort of mental.

[Bob Lazar]

It could very well be, because there was obviously no physical controls to it.

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Lazar]

When the craft was being tested. The only test I saw from close range, it was already out of the hangar. And when I went into the hangar, the bay doors between all the hangars were open. They had big. You know, there's the door that leads to the outside that's at an angle, but there's also big bay doors between all the hangars. Those were open for some reason. And when I came in to go witness that, I was able to look down and see that boy, there's other. There's nine of them all the way down there.

[Emily]

What's going through your head and emotionally? How do you feel?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, first of all, where did they all come from? How could you. I mean, I could see you found one somewhere. There's a crash or whatever. You found one. You don't find nine. I mean, where. Where did they come from? None of them are. Are damaged to any degree. Although the one I call the top hat had holes in it, but it looks like it was shot, you know, with a projectile. But there was, you know, damage from, you know, crash or attempted landing. So where did all this stuff come from? There's so much missing to the story.

[Emily]

Did they all look like the exact same sort of replica?

[Bob Lazar]

No, each one was different. Okay, but the material all looked exactly the same. The color, the sheen. So it looked like they were all made of the same material.

[Emily]

So the reactors and the propulsion were all the same. The material was all the same, but the shapes were somehow different. Do you remember?

[Bob Lazar]

Maybe, I mean, maybe they're specialized craft. You know, you can take a step back from humanity and you go look at all the cars driving around. Well, you got a truck, that's a real long thing. You look at a Volkswagen that's like a little, you know, and you see a motorcycle. You know, they're all. But they all have the same somewhat type of engine, you know, internal combustion engine is powering them all. So they must have all different functions. And maybe that's just what we're looking at. It's just. And who says they're all men? Maybe some of those things are drones of some kind.

[Emily]

People associate you with the kind of Billy Myers sports model. Like, you know, the craft that looks like that.

[Bob Lazar]

It looks exactly like that.

[Emily]

Exactly like that.

[Bob Lazar]

Like, I thought Billy Meyer was absolutely ridiculous because I, I've seen some of the pictures and this is what I mentioned to you the other day, UFO researcher syndrome. I think the initial pictures Billy Meyer took of the sport model looking craft are 100% genuine. There's no way that, that there could be another one of those that just coincidentally looks exactly like what I call the sport model. So I think he absolutely photographed that and it was real. And I think at the time he got a lot of attention and, you know, they printed books and everything. And I think as time went on and he kind of missed that, and then he started making some models and taking some new pictures. And the other pictures look ridiculous. Right, right, they do. It looks like, you know, and there's

[Emily]

something about like dinosaurs in his book and.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I know it looks like there's styrofoam balls all into it. Yeah. I found some more pictures, you know, come back and, you know, so I think that's, you know, that that's just a personal belief. Yeah, you. There's no way you can tell me that those original pictures aren't genuine. Yeah.

[Emily]

And, and so that's the craft you worked on the Eight other crafts. What did those look like?

[Bob Lazar]

I could only see two.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Clearly, because from the angle, all you can see is just a little piece, and then all. Then all you can just see is the hanger out there. But one looked like, I call a jello mold, which is more like a bundt cake without the hole in the middle. And then the other one, as I previously mentioned, a top hat, like a carnival top straw hat. And the brim had a hole in it.

[Emily]

So is your immediate instinct humans didn't make these?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

At what point do you. Do you not see, like, an American flag on one of them or.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, on the sport model. I saw that, like, the first day that I went in.

[Emily]

Okay. Was there any talk of how these crafts were retrieved?

[Bob Lazar]

I know. I mean, I know the Navy got the sport model, and I think that was from what Barry said. That was an archeological dig, which, by the way, isn't in the desert. It's in the water. And if there's another term for an archeological dig that's in the water, I don't know what it is. I thought. But it's still a dig. But, yeah, that. I don't know what body of water, if it was the ocean or lake or what. But, yeah, that came from the water. Again, according to Barry. I didn't see this in documentation, but, yeah, that was happened upon by the Navy. And that's all I know. And I just theorized that's how the Navy got in control of everything.

[Emily]

So what you constantly hear is you have things like Hughes Aircraft building the Glomar Explorer, which subsea discovery. And you have some actually more recent Lockheed subsea super subsea submarines and drone sort of things that seem to be able to scan the sea floor. And there's a great book called the Silent War by John Pina Craven, and he was high up in the Navy, and he talks about retrieval of exotic technology on the sea floor. And I. I wonder, you know, you have Tim Burchette as a congressman from Tennessee who says there are five hotspots in oceans all around the world.

[Chris Matteo]

You know, we think they're coming in from way out. Maybe they did millennia ago, but they're here, and they're in these deep water areas. And that's why, I mean, like we say, we know more about the face of the moon than we do what's.

[Bob Lazar]

What's going on there now.

[Chris Matteo]

We have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe, deep area, deep water areas.

[Emily]

And you. I don't know there's another. I have one friend in the Navy who's you know, anonymous source. Maybe one day we'll do an interview. But he talks about the movie the Abyss by James Cameron.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

And he says maybe that scene where you know, this sort of glowing object shows up isn't too far off from the tree. Truth.

[Bob Lazar]

So look, one of our science fiction movies is going to be Correct.

[Emily]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a safe bet.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. One of them is.

[Emily]

Yeah. And we were talking last night with Luigi about Pascagoula, Missouri was the site of the production of nuclear subs for the Navy. And you have a famous case there of some fishermen who you know, experience an alien abduction and have a UFO experience.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, there's something going on with the ocean. There is been from the very beginning.

[Emily]

George Knapp has interesting footage around Baja, Mexico. On the other side you have Tampere, which seems to be a hot spot. You have the Caribbean, Bahamas.

[Bob Lazar]

That's where all these guys are hiding out.

[Emily]

That's exactly. Do you think there's a possibility it's you know, the ultra terrestrial hypothesis. So this is this idea that they are ancient remnants of a. Like an antediluvian civilization that existed pre ice age or pre younger days.

[Bob Lazar]

Anti Diluvian.

[Emily]

Yeah. And that the. They're more advanced than they're like the place what we call Atlantis are these beings who've coexisted co inhabited the earth with us.

[Bob Lazar]

It really could very well be if you just look at the size of the ocean you can hide an entire civilization down there. And especially if they're immune to the effects of the ocean just gotta be deep. Yeah, we'll never find them.

[Emily]

Would any of the scientific principles that you looked at as far as the bubble being created around the craft and all of that that somehow be immune to salt water? Like would it be able to travel transmedium? Because that's one of the.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Emily]

It's so interesting because that's the observable

[Bob Lazar]

bent around the craft. I'm sure a raindrop would do.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating.

[Chris Matteo]

I've been involved in this whole things since 1987 and since the 80s or even before, let's go even all the way down to the 60s. Everybody always talked about the US Air

[Bob Lazar]

Force and Project Blue Book.

[Chris Matteo]

And Project Blue Book. I mean Bob Lazar comes out in 1989 and says they weren't crash saucers, they were intact craft.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

And it's the Navy that's in Charge. And funny enough, 40 years later, that's what people are talking about. So, you know, when I see the new whistleblowers come out, like Eric Davis or people that we're seeing, I'm not skeptical at the fact that they were involved in something. What I find very like, basically very interesting is that they're all saying exactly what Bob said in 1989, but they never say Bob Lazarus is possibly factual.

[Bob Lazar]

Right, right, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Well, there's.

[Bob Lazar]

Bob has nothing to do with that. But everything he said is right though.

[Emily]

Yeah, they're like high level. There's definitely a decades long multi generational crash retrieval operation. But the one guy who says he's worked on the crap. Yeah, yeah, no, no, that makes sense.

[Bob Lazar]

Everything is right though. There aren't that many crash crashes, There just aren't that many grasses.

[Emily]

If you had to guess how many crafts are in U. S. Possession now in hangars now?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know.

[Chris Matteo]

I mean. Nine.

[Emily]

Nine for sure.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean, I can only talk about what I've seen.

[Emily]

Do you, do you think they have a sense of ontological tree? Like when you see all this stuff around, you know, the ability to manipulate timelines with looking glass or even just manipulate time on a local scale. And then they're saying that they found these things at archaeological digs under the ocean. Do you, do you have a sense that they have like a metaphysical model that's like greater than the average citizen? So it's like their origin story of humanity? Maybe, you think maybe?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I think, I think there's a good chance of that.

[Emily]

Is your kind of occam's razor explanation that these are extraterrestrials? Do you think they're time travelers? What do you, what do you think?

[Bob Lazar]

I think they're, that that's all equal. I mean, there's just as much chance that they're, you know, time travelers. Visitors from another dimension, us from the future, or aliens. I don't see anything pointing in any specific direction. I go with the aliens just because we've seen it so much in our movie. I think we're just trained to think that and it's, it's palatable. You can see other worlds, this can go travel in another fashion and get there. There's probably life there. They probably build things and, you know, it all makes sense.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, but when you go to other dimensions in time. Well, can you even time travel at all? I mean, is, will that ever be possible? You know, maybe, maybe not. How do you get here from another dimension. Why would you care? Why would you go to another dimension and start hassling people over there? You know, so, I mean, the other things don't make sense. So. Yeah, yeah, I lean. I guess the Occam's Razor is aliens. But it could be any one of the other possibilities or one that we haven't thought of. That's just completely ridiculous.

[Emily]

What do you think was the top speed

[Bob Lazar]

of just conventionally moving?

[Emily]

Yep.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't think it really had a very high top speed.

[Emily]

Really?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Like. Like if you had to.

[Bob Lazar]

It depends. I mean, it depends on how it was being. Because you can. You can maneuver it in a couple different ways. So. Of course, how would I know? I mean, the. The speed it could attain. But I'm just thinking about an omicron mode where it's just sitting there and moving. But you think about Delta. Yeah. And. And at Delta, the speed's gonna be near infinite. It's gonna appear somewhere else.

[Emily]

You think almost close to the speed of light, or it would look like it's hopping across spacetime or something.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it'd far exceed the speed of light.

[Emily]

It'd be faster.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Because you're not going in a linear fashion. You're just jumping over. Wow.

[Emily]

Cause it's bending. It's warping spacetime.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. So it's, you know, for a given distance, you'll get to the destination far faster than you would if you were traveling at the speed a lot.

[Emily]

And it's like crunching spacetime.

[Bob Lazar]

And then in front of it, it's

[Emily]

like riding a wave or something.

[Bob Lazar]

It's just bending space around it.

[Emily]

Did you hear anything around pulses involved in the convulsions?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. It's not a continuous. It's like it pulses. I don't know what the maximum range of each jump is, but I know it's like a 10 millisecond recycle time in between. So the craft is always doing this. When all three of the amplifiers are being used for travel, they're in the Delta configuration. And when only one is being used for travel, it's in the omicron configuration.

[Emily]

You guys do an amazing job of depicting the configurations. And so what is Delta exactly?

[Bob Lazar]

Delta is using the three. There's three amplifiers. Delta.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

And that's where they all focus together on a destination. The craft puts its belly in that direction and that's how it moves. The omicron is where it only uses one. Or the emitters to propel itself. Or it's not really propelling itself, it's doing the opposite. Essentially create an indentation in space time so the craft moves forward, which always gives it. If it's operating in. In omicron configuration, it's never really stable. It's kind of a, you know, somewhat undulating movement.

[Emily]

You know, it's so interesting and yeah, it's fascinating. That seems to be a common thing.

[Bob Lazar]

The craft wobble, but when it switches to delta, as soon as the two other amplifiers come on. Yeah. Online. That thing locks in space and time and then it's, you know, able to focus in any direction and move there instantaneously.

[Emily]

Logan.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, all right.

[Emily]

What's up? You're in our mid century living room set you have of Luigi Vendettelli, Bob Lazar. And Logan is a long time UFO nut.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay.

[Emily]

And you watch WWE at all? No, he is the guy in WWE right now. He has an amazing podcast as well. I've known his brother actually for like a decade plus.

[Bob Lazar]

Dude, I. I gotta say, Bob, it

[Logan]

is an honor to meet you, man.

[Bob Lazar]

Absolute legend. What a privilege to talk to you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Good. Good to meet you.

[Logan]

I don't know if Jesse gave you

[Chris Matteo]

any context to why I wanted to talk to you.

[Bob Lazar]

They have a bit.

[Emily]

Yeah. But maybe let me rehash it.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay.

[Chris Matteo]

So, Bob, check this out.

[Logan]

Okay. I have in my possession UFO footage

[Chris Matteo]

that has a story behind it that

[Logan]

is compelling but not convincing. And I've been waiting to do just do something with this footage or receive

[Bob Lazar]

confirmation of sorts of.

[Logan]

And I see this particular orange disc sometimes in, in UFO videos and documentaries. I'm watching it.

[Bob Lazar]

It pops up every now and then.

[Logan]

But when I was watching the trailer for S4 that you guys released, about 80% of the way through the trailer, you guys show a disc that is at night, but then kind of coats itself in this orange, Right?

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, dude.

[Logan]

I paused it there and I said, oh my God, that looks exactly like the footage that I have. So this footage, supposedly authentic, was taken by two college kids who wanted to

[Bob Lazar]

go to Area 51 in the 90s,

[Chris Matteo]

I believe it was 1995, and film

[Bob Lazar]

their experience of trying to see if

[Logan]

they could stumble upon on a UFO or just alien activity of sorts.

[Narrator/Host]

Let's break this down. A couple of college age guys drove out to the Black Mailbox, an infamous landmark entrance point to Area 51. It's along the road that leads to Groom Lake, extremely close to where Bob said he worked. It's nighttime. They're parked right in. In front of the fence surrounding the secret facility. The lights are off on their car, and they have a camera resting on the armrest, pointed through the front windshield.

[Chris Matteo]

And then it cuts to under the

[Logan]

dashboard, and you see something very clearly illuminating, like the top of the dashboard.

[Bob Lazar]

And they're, like, hunkered underneath the car, and they're whispering to each other, like,

[Emily]

I think it's out there.

[Logan]

Like, I don't know what it is.

[Chris Matteo]

Maybe we should go out. And they're like.

[Logan]

They're, like, kind of scared.

[Narrator/Host]

Then something appears just beyond the glass. The craft is hovering extremely close to the car. It's orange and slightly wobbling or undulating in place as if. If it's on a wave. You can hear the two guys whispering.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, that, to me, is exactly how it was described by Bob. It's exactly like. Like your hand did. Your hand.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's moving the right way, it's the right color, and it's the right shape. So it makes it very compelling.

[Chris Matteo]

The intensity of the light. There's something very, very bright.

[Bob Lazar]

Right.

[Chris Matteo]

That is affecting that the dash is being lit. It's. It's the. The dash of the vehicle, and the craft is above it.

[Bob Lazar]

Right.

[Chris Matteo]

And look at the intent. Here's the dash. And look at the intensity of the light that's going to happen here. Right.

[Bob Lazar]

Whoa.

[Chris Matteo]

There. Those. Those are really.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, you can. And it's fading. And.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, you can't fake that.

[Bob Lazar]

You can see that it wobbles, but it wobble.

[Emily]

It wobbles. That's the important thing. Yeah. So it does comport with your video.

[Bob Lazar]

It wobbles. It glows like that, in that color, in that shape.

[Chris Matteo]

That's wild, dude. Yeah, I mean, it's wild.

[Bob Lazar]

It's impressive. It is.

[Narrator/Host]

The craft emits an orange reddish color, which is not a coincidence. A craft with strong field interactions like the ones that Bob alludes to creates an ionized plasma sheath around itself. The dominant atmospheric gas on Earth is nitrogen. Ionized nitrogen that interacts with plasma glows red. Orange. This classic observation of a glowing reddish or orange ball of light moving silently and erratically is one of the most commonly reported UFO descriptions across decades of sightings worldwide.

[Bob Lazar]

No. Did you see that move?

[Emily]

No, I didn't.

[Narrator/Host]

Logan has been sitting on this footage for almost a decade now. And I'll spare you the crazy details as to how he obtained it, but he's obsessed with UFOs and thinks this video should be out for the benefit of the public.

[Emily]

Now, I know this footage is grainy

[Narrator/Host]

and while certainly fascinating, it's far from conclusive, but it is another fascinating data point. What Luigi's movie almost definitively vindicates is the existence of S4. Remember, when Bob went public in 1989, Area 51 itself hadn't even been officially acknowledged by the government. And to this day, as S4's existence is still denied, it's not supposed to exist. But Luigi used Google Earth's historical imagery to go back in time and found a 2022 version of the area surrounding S4 that was not yet blurred to obscure the site. And yet vehicle tracks are visible in these older satellite images.

[Chris Matteo]

You can clearly see the tracks. Look at them going in every direction. And you look at all the traffic.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, right. Yeah. That's not one guy driving around.

[Chris Matteo]

No, that's not one guy driving. Exactly.

[Bob Lazar]

And there's no public out there. So what are you doing?

[Narrator/Host]

Luigi also shows Bob a high quality aerial photograph taken by a pilot roughly 17 miles from Papoose Lake. The image had previously circulated online, but Luigi enhanced the contrast a bit to reveal additional details.

[Chris Matteo]

And if you look carefully in this version here, where it's. The contrast has been changed, the. As we zoom, look what you see.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, you can start seeing.

[Chris Matteo]

You see them clearly right there.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. The slanted rectangular doors. Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Finally, and perhaps most damningly, the map of Papus Lake was literally, literally altered eight days after Bob Lazar went public in his first anonymous video. You heard me right. They changed the map eight days after Bob started to speak out. And the map was clearly modified in a way that would specifically hide the existence of S4.

[Chris Matteo]

Bob went public on May 15, 1989. And he didn't come public. His name was in public. It was him as Dennis, as in silhouette, wet. And. And. And eight days after that, the United States Department of the Interior, who works on the geological maps of the landscape at the test site, where it's Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, and the whole Nevada test site actually modified all the maps there, specifically Groom Lake and Papoose Lake and Papoose Mountain Range there. And there's a stamp on all the modifications because the modification was dated 1989. So on the actual small print it says maps modified 1989, but the stamp of the exact day is May 23, 1989, exactly eight days after Bob went public.

[Emily]

And specifically they are getting Papoose Lake, just Papua slake. So they're removing S4.

[Chris Matteo]

No. What they remove what the specificity there is, the specific thing they removed is there's a road that leads from Groom Lake. Down to Papoose Lake. And as it leads down to Papus Lake, the north end of the lake, the road, road forks off. It splits off in two areas to the west of Papoose Lake and to the right of Papua Lake, where S4 is. They specifically removed the road to the east of Papoose Lake and they kept the same one to the west, which. Why would they do that? Why would you suddenly remove the road

[Bob Lazar]

that goes to S4 and leave everything else?

[Chris Matteo]

And leave everything else there?

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, that is an amazing discovery.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah. And it's there. I mean, it's not like we're not making anything up here. I was very specific of, like, I don't want to put anything that makes us look like we're inventing stuff. This is verifiable. You could order these maps.

[Emily]

The other thing I think that's interesting is for. For people doubting the story. Jeremy Corbell and Ross Colthart found a bunch of people who have verified Bob's presence at S4. Right. I don't know if he had his

[Bob Lazar]

own, I think arriving at 51 or getting on the bus or something.

[Emily]

That's right.

[Bob Lazar]

I think they found a bunch.

[Chris Matteo]

George Knapp also had some people and they got threatened back then and they were told six people that were threatened and basically they never made it forward. George talks about it in the interviews we did with him, and he's talked about it in the past and he says they all received the phone call, they were all threatened and they never went public. And, you know, for anybody who's a Bob Lazar detractor or doesn't believe the story, you then have to not believe George Knapp, because why would George lie about that? What's his. What's the benefit here? You know, and somebody's going to say, well, it's because he put his name attached to the Bob story. No, not when that was happening. He was still investigating the Bob story. So he said that back then. It's not like it's new information.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, he was getting a lot of shit.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, he was getting a lot of

[Bob Lazar]

shit story back then. It was not, certainly not a feather to stick in his cap.

[Chris Matteo]

You know, it's something I. I really want to put a lot of emphasis on because of all the haters out there is this happened when he came out. It was in 1989. It was a different era. It was a different time in the world. So, you know, the people now that think that Bob Lazar is a grifter or I'm a Grifter, Because I'm making a movie about this and whatever. You know, this happened 40 years ago. I was interested in UFOs 40 years ago, and believe me, I was not popular. This was the most unpopular topic when it came out. It was considered to be. So don't touch that because it's going to ruin your life. So why would. First of all, why would Bob Lazar do that? And then why would George Knapp, a respected investigative journalist in Las Vegas who already was well known and had a good job, why would he hang his. His reputation and ruin his entire career just to support another lot, another liar? Like it doesn't make any sense to me.

[Emily]

No, no, it really does.

[Chris Matteo]

So, you know, let's not forget those.

[Emily]

Yeah, and he has multiple Peabody. He's well respected. Exactly as you said, outside of UFOs. Yeah, yeah. Did you learn any other details about the guy that had died that you were replacing?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, they had an operating reactor, so apparently. Which is also brings up all kinds of other questions to me. Apparently the reactors and all the craft are exactly the same. So that makes me think of a manufacturing facility that's like Ford making an engine and it goes in a bunch of different models. How can all these crafts have the same. The same power system or propulsion system in them? Anyway, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but he had a reactor, so it was probably from some. One of the other crafts. And why they did this is beyond me. They took it out to the nuclear test site and they physically cut into it while it was running under load and it exploded and all. I think there were three guys there, maybe more. They were all killed. So number one, why would you do that? Number number two, it makes me think either they were extremely desperate and want to just, well, find out what's in there and, you know, and why would you even do it while it was operating? Or extremely confident that they knew what was going on in the reactor where they could safely cut it and they had a reason to get in there. But apparently that information never made it back. Whatever they gleaned from it or even their suspicions at the beginning, because Barry and I were kind of starting from the beginning on the reactor. So everything they had done previously was lost anyway.

[Emily]

You ever learned the guy's name or any details about. Do you. Does Barry have a last name or.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, Barry Castillo. Castillo. It's spelled Castillo, but Castile. I don't know how it's pronounced. Yeah.

[Emily]

Have you ever tracked him down after,

[Bob Lazar]

I think briefly, decades ago, he Made a real. Because there was another guy that would come in and out once in a while named Renee.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Don't remember his last name, but, I mean, at some point, I really put a lot of effort into trying to find Dennis Mariani and Barry. And I think some people did track down Dennis. I think he died not too long ago.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know about Barry, but I. I never was never able to find it because, I mean, back in the time I was looking for him, there was no Internet.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, so you had to go through public records and stuff, and it was much more difficult than it is now.

[Emily]

Yeah. And I. I know of one instance in which the name Dennis Mariani was corroborated by. By somebody at, you know, Nevada test site. And so, you know, I won't. I won't go further than that, but. Because it's not right. It's not my thing to tell, but you're. You're giving names and, you know, I think some of these people could still be alive, which is pretty.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Remarkable, too. Like, maybe we could track some of them down and they could back you up. I wonder. I mean, they have to know.

[Bob Lazar]

I'm kind of wondering why nobody else came out, you know?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, although Barry wouldn't talk about it much, you know, there are times I kind of mentioned, you know, holy cow, can you believe this is being kept secret? And he goes, it sucks. I know. So he didn't think it was, you know, he wasn't with the program. As far as keeping this from, you know, the entire world.

[Emily]

What was his background?

[Bob Lazar]

No idea.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

No idea.

[Emily]

But there was kind of a collegial goodwill between you and him.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he'd goof around sometimes, which was nice, because everything else was just so rigid and military. So, you know, I'm sure it's a story where he threw the golf ball at the reactor. And, you know, sometimes we'd start. Just start talking about stupid stuff. So it was. It's good to see a normal person. And, you know, that just acted like, you know, a human instead of a robot.

[Emily]

What happened when he threw the golf ball at the reactor?

[Bob Lazar]

He was showing me the field on it, and he said, check this out, and took a golf ball and, you know, intending to hit the reactor, and instead it. It bounced off the field and then hit a ceiling tile, which dislodged it and made all the little particles, you know, come down. And we knew Dennis was going to be coming back in two minutes, so it was. Was, you Know, red alert. We had to, you know, grab the stools and go up and reassend and clean it up and everything. And. And, you know, shortly after that, Dennis walks in, you know, what's going on? Nothing. Nothing. We're working like we should be.

[Emily]

I mean, this is a remarkable detail. Around the reactor. You have this sort of force field like thing, this like repelling force.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once the hemisphere on top of a plate, you know, about the size of a basketball, maybe a little bigger, on top of a 15 inch square plate, the hemisphere is removable. Once the hemisphere is put back on, if the emitter is in the right position, the reactor will turn on immediately and it'll produce a gravitational field around it. And you can push on it and you, you can't, you can't touch the reactor from that point. I mean, it. And it, it's somewhat elastic. You know, like if you have two light poles of a magnet pushing them together, you get that it's the exact same feel, but without metal. Just your hands. But as I said before, what, what's really interesting is, you know, you can move the reactor on the table, and once you turn it on and you're pushing on the field, the reactor doesn't slide. So it's not transferring the force to the reactor, it's pushing your hand away. But so that's really interesting to me.

[Emily]

How did the reactor work?

[Bob Lazar]

This is all guess. This is just all guesswork.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

It has a super heavy element element in it, which appeared to be 115 on the periodic chart. There's a little tower in it, and from X rays we could see that there's a loop around the base plate. So it was theorized. Apparently Barry with his other lab partner, they thought that was a cyclotron, an accelerator. And that the tube that came up the side was an off ramp, essentially. And that particle or whatever was being accelerated interacts with the 115 and somehow that produces the gravitational field.

[Emily]

How did it feel on your hand?

[Bob Lazar]

It felt exactly like pushing magnets together.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

It was just elastic. I mean, it was compressible to some degree. And then when it got close to it, it. You're. Nothing is getting past that.

[Emily]

With magnets, you have to have, like, poles for them to repel.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And in this case, you're not, you

[Bob Lazar]

know, it's just matter repelling matter. Yeah.

[Emily]

Without polarity, does it feel like a.

[Narrator/Host]

What does it feel like?

[Emily]

Does it.

[Narrator/Host]

Is there texture to it or.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it's just. It's just elastic. But It. It. It becomes. It's not linear.

[Emily]

But does it feel like it does.

[Bob Lazar]

It's logarithmic. You know, it's. It's easy to push, and then it becomes impossible. There's no way you're getting past the next three inches. You could probably sit a car on top of it and nothing would change.

[Emily]

Does it feel like Saran Wrap or does it feel like. Like what? What does it feel like when you're in it? Does it feel like.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it just feels.

[Emily]

It's literally like. Like air. Like.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I. I see what you're saying.

[Narrator/Host]

You know what I mean?

[Bob Lazar]

Describe that.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, is there a.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it's just coolness, a heat.

[Emily]

It's just like space time itself.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's just. I don't know how to describe it.

[Emily]

Sure, sure.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, but it's. It's. I mean, at this point, I don't. I don't even think it's gravity. What do you think? I think this is an another completely unique force. It doesn't behave enough like gravity.

[Emily]

And explain why it's so different.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, because at least my thoughts at this point are. I think gravity is just a property of matter and it's only an attractive force. I'm not sure you can have anti gravity, like if it was gravity, you know. At one point, Barry showed me, he had one of the emitters it working. He put a lit little kitchen candle right at the focal point, and he powered up the. The reactor and the flame stopped flickering. It stood there frozen in space and time. But I could see the light from the candle. The flame was still visible. Also, he removed the candle and then rotated the emitter. I don't know if it was another direction or more the same way, but it made a little black ball in the air where no light was escaping, looking like a little black hole. But no, you could just tell there was no light at the focal point right in the air. It was just a dark area. So there it's affecting light, but it wasn't in the candle test before that. So it. It's a really unusual, unusual thing.

[Narrator/Host]

When Bob mentioned this anomalous force coming from the craft's emitter, I immediately racked my brain for anyone in conventional aerospace circles who talks about something similar. And then I realized I just interviewed the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA, Dr. Charles Bueller, who talks about something very similar.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay, where the heck is this energy coming from?

[Logan]

Because if I was to stick this in space, it would accelerate with the power off. That's a problem.

[Narrator/Host]

You see, there's a long lineage of people studying gravity control or anti gravity in the United States. Perhaps my favorite, favorite example is mid century inventor Thomas Townsend Browne, who discovered that when you apply a high voltage to certain asymmetric capacitors, they produce thrust. That's right, propulsion with no fuel, no exhaust, no propellant, just electricity as the input converted directly into motion. A new model for space propulsion that could eliminate crude chemical combustion rockets forever. Now, you might think that's insane and defies Newton's laws. And I'll spare you all of the corroborating research that I've dug up showing that Brown made real breakthroughs in the world of anti gravity. Dr. Charles Buehler NASA has taken Brown's experiments to the next level. With modern instruments, more rigorous controls.

[Logan]

We see about 0.1 grams. That corresponds to about about 1 millinewton of thrust.

[Narrator/Host]

And decades of electrostatics expertise from his work at Kennedy Space center behind him. He's done over 2,000 of these experiments and controlled for just about every variable you can think of. And he's also getting millinewtons of thrust, basically real propulsion with electricity as the sole input. And you can't really argue with his authority to make these claims. The man literally runs electrostatics at NASA.

[Bob Lazar]

NASA.

[Narrator/Host]

He's the incoming president of the American Electrostatic Society, and he's contributed two fundamental principles to the field of electrostatics that are now widely accepted.

[Emily]

So this is kind of an interesting moment in history because we have a man who reverse engineered UFOs and then we have a NASA lead electrostatic scientist. So I thought I'd just leave it to you guys to kind of nerd out.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Well, first of all, hi, Charles. Hi, Bob.

[Logan]

This is a very exciting moment for me. I'm a big fan.

[Narrator/Host]

Now, the thing about Bob Lazar is he kind of exists on an island. We've never seen him interact with other highly credentialed engineers in aerospace. And what I've learned after spending time with him is he's actually pretty skeptical when it comes to other scientific anomalies.

[Chris Matteo]

Man.

[Bob Lazar]

I'm real interested to hear, you know, your physical experiment setup. It is it, is it a hybrid of your idea and TT Brown's or is it, are you just duplicating one of his experiments? I mean, what can you explain to me what it looks like? What's your test setup look like?

[Logan]

Gosh, 2000 variations. I'll try to do my best.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, how, how is this you? I'm sure You've seen the lifter ion motors and stuff along those lines. How is it different? Different from those?

[Logan]

A few ways. The ion thrusters obviously use ions in there to give them momentum conservation. What's interesting about this force, even though it's sort of the same geometry, can be used, but in high vacuum, you'll get the thrust, but it's always in the opposite direction of the ion thrusters, which is really cool because what happens is you have a sharp electrode in the ground flow plane. However you do that, you can come up with a million ways to do that in air. When you do that, you'll break down the gases, either in the corona or some fold like that. In vacuum, we can actually see these forces arise, but they're always in the opposite direction of the ion wind, which is really interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

That is very interesting.

[Logan]

The same direction as the rocket exhaust. You never think of that eventually, so it really messes with you. So that's what's interesting about it. That's one major difference.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, that. Well, that's really interesting. I mean, that. The fact that it's in the opposite direction of an ion where an ion thruster would be, and you've done it in a hard or reasonably hard vacuum, and you're getting measurable thrust.

[Logan]

We have. We've been doing that since 2020. So the last six years, we test almost every day, probably every other day, different configurations. So we zero in on a configuration test, another concept, and that is an ongoing iterative process. So, yes, we have tested a high vacuum, 10 to the minus six or better. The champion get up to 10 to the minus seven, but enough to prove to us that there's no ion wind.

[Bob Lazar]

What kind of thrust in newtons or grams are you getting?

[Logan]

Well, we're. We're still playing around in the hundreds of micro newtons or milli Newton ranges. So I think the highest we've gotten is probably up to the 50 millinewton mark. But that's when we stack these together. We don't learn a lot from them when we do that, other than we can make more thrust, which is important. But we like to understand the thrust density, if you will, of each thruster. So we're trying to optimize each type, optimize each parameter space we have access to before we can get to larger chambers or outer space.

[Bob Lazar]

To test the megastructures physically, how big are these thrusters?

[Logan]

Oh, they're not very big. They're about 6 inches, maybe 6 by 6, roughly.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay.

[Logan]

That range, it's a Nice size. You know, we can make them bigger, but we don't gain anything by that. We just try to keep them manageable so that we can, you know, do different things with them, you know, stack them, try different voltages, and then we try to measure the currents. We make sure that in many cases there's. There is no current, which is very

[Bob Lazar]

odd, I would say.

[Emily]

Isn't that interesting?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I'd say turn the power source

[Emily]

off and it keeps going.

[Bob Lazar]

Wait, what?

[Logan]

Yeah, it is very annoying. In some cases, when we trap the charge in there, that's all that's required. So that really eliminates a lot of things.

[Bob Lazar]

So a physically larger one doesn't get you any more thrust, but you can stack them and get increased thrust.

[Logan]

Well, the physically large one will, but we won't learn anything from it. You know, we can do 8 inches or 10 inches, which we have, but we're not learning anything from. We want to learn, you know, what is the best geometry, shape. We want to optimize. We know area is one of the ways that will be optimized later once we're in space. But on ground test particles, we're kind of fixed by the geometry of our chamber. Once we get some funding here, we do. Drew does have almost a walk in size chamber chamber in its garage. You can walk in it. When that comes online in a few months, then we could test much larger versions of it. So the thrust does depend on the area, it does depend on the volume, it does depend on the voltages, the typical things you would expect. But we try to optimize it as much as we can with the chamber that we have actively running right now.

[Bob Lazar]

How much. How much are you charging on up to? What kind of voltage are you using?

[Logan]

Well, when we started in 20. 2016, it was at the towns and brown level. 150,000 volts.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay. Yeah.

[Logan]

Thank goodness. We're not anywhere near that now. I think we're. We're operating right now about 400 volts.

[Bob Lazar]

You're at 400 volts?

[Emily]

Yeah. So he, his belief is that it's really. Brown thought that the voltage range was, you know, the, the thing causing the thrust. But. But Charles's belief is that that's sort of a proxy for electric field strength. And there are obviously other ways to amplify electric field strength at lower voltages. And so he's using 400 volts.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, but I can't. It's shocking.

[Emily]

1.5 millinewtons.

[Bob Lazar]

That's unbelievable, man. I want to come over and Hang out with you.

[Emily]

I can introduce you guys, put your

[Logan]

hands on it, do whatever you like. You're more than welcome.

[Emily]

Isn't that exciting?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I can't believe you're getting these results. And I can't get past the 400 volts either. If you increase the voltage, you don't see any change in thrust or.

[Logan]

Oh, you'll get more thrust for sure. We like to stay, you know, 400 volts, 500 volts. We like to stay low, if we can.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay. Yeah.

[Logan]

It's a preference. I mean, we all average. We'll test up to 2,25 volts. We can start worrying about breakdown when you get more above that, because these systems are getting much, much smaller, so we don't have access to the higher fields anymore. It's material properties that we have to deal with. But. But we like the 2, 300 volts. It. It gets rid of other nuances like corona, wind, or anything like that.

[Bob Lazar]

Right, Right. Yeah. All that stuff gets tossed out.

[Emily]

Yeah. You're not even ionizing the air in air, 400 volts.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, it's nothing. That. That's. That's why I was so shocked because all those other effects dropped out. Right. As soon as you drop the voltage down that low and you can. You can get some cleaner data then. That's. Damn. This is really cool.

[Emily]

We're converting Bob on Townsend Brown. Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you for this. Really appreciate it, man.

[Bob Lazar]

Good to meet you.

[Logan]

Good to meet you, too. Take care, guys.

[Bob Lazar]

Take care. That's. That's really fascinating.

[Emily]

Isn't that wild?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's a little more than just wild.

[Emily]

I know, right?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it is. I mean, that's. That's significant.

[Emily]

I think.

[Bob Lazar]

So. It could really be significant. And, you know, the thing is, the first thing I would. I would point out, there's something wrong with your test, but not in 1500 tests.

[Emily]

No.

[Chris Matteo]

You know.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, when you've gone through it that many times and have done it for this long, boy. And you've adjusted all the, you know, potential parameters and fallouts to.

[Emily]

No, I can't. I know.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I. You got to assume there's. That the thing's working.

[Emily]

But you also. You mentioned DC voltage in the craft, and that was. Yeah, that's also a Townsend Brown. That is high DC voltage.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. It's not just high DC voltage. I even mentioned it on, you know, Joe Rogan that I. I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so it always. Just like a magnet always has a magnetic field.

[Logan]

To it.

[Bob Lazar]

An electric always has an electrostatic feel to it. Interesting. And I think. I think that's certainly something important.

[Emily]

Were there high climb rates to the voltage? Likely. You know what I mean? Like, really high climb. Like, like, like fast, you know, swinging up in voltage.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

I'm.

[Bob Lazar]

Without a doubt.

[Emily]

It's so fascinating because it's literally all the Townsend Brown stuff. It's like fast, high DC voltage, like, fast rates. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

You know. Well, I wonder if that really applies to the craft more than I was given it credit for.

[Emily]

I think it does. Especially after your conversation with Belay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, now that's making me wonder. It could very well be again because of the high voltage on the craft and.

[Emily]

And it's dc.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So there's no magnetic field interference.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, right. Man, that's.

[Emily]

We're making progress live here.

[Bob Lazar]

He might have been so far past this already, but.

[Emily]

Well, the funny thing about Brown is he was looking for a power source that was nuclear for like the rest of his career. Oh, he figured out the electrogravitics and then he called it the flame jet.

[Bob Lazar]

Boy, that would have been the guy to have there, other than me.

[Emily]

Well, I mean, you and him. I just get walked off set. No, you and him would be.

[Bob Lazar]

I. I just get in the way. Way. But yeah, he'd be the guy to have there.

[Emily]

And you were given some theories, like there being two gravities, Gravity A and gravity B. Was that in the briefing documents or was this told to you?

[Bob Lazar]

Actually, that's. I think that was part of what Barry. Barry had other lab notes, and I don't know if those were previous doc or documents that he had, but there were lab notes and these. This was the direction they A were going in at one time. There are two specific, different types of gravity, Gravity A and gravity B. Gravity A works on a smaller micro scale, while gravity B works on a larger macro scale. Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the strong nuclear force in mainstream physics. And gravity A is the wave that you. You need to access and amplify to enable you to cause space time distortion for interstellar travel.

[Emily]

Gravity B is cosmo is like cosmological scale, and gravity A is like subatomic scale.

[Bob Lazar]

Apparently.

[Emily]

Apparently. Which it is really interesting because I remember you're like kind of OG Science tutorial. We were texting about it. Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

The excerpts from the government bible.

[Bob Lazar]

The original tape that you did. Did.

[Emily]

And it's. It's amazing. So it sounds like this new. The kind of gravity A is like

[Bob Lazar]

basically the perimeter of the, the atom or what you're dealing with, but so

[Emily]

you have to scale.

[Bob Lazar]

Again, I'm just repeating stuff that I was told. It's not like I conducted an experiment to verify that, so.

[Emily]

But it is almost a solution to what has been keeping physics stuck for so long. Yeah, possibly quantize gravity.

[Bob Lazar]

Right? Right. Possibly.

[Emily]

That's so interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

Possibly. If in fact that's gravity.

[Emily]

Have you ever, you know, we were talking about this, but gravity like fields. And I want to give this to you because you can make sense of it more than me. And we were talking about this last time. This is this guy Burkhard Heim. Have you ever heard that name?

[Bob Lazar]

I've heard the name, but I don't know anything about him.

[Emily]

So he, at the age of 19 became deaf and blind due to an explosion. And he was a German and he ended up moving over to the US and working for Lockheed Martin in the 50s and was renowned as just a total genius. And he had a really interesting theory of gravity which involved I guess, two gravitational fields and some of these sub components of gravity. I wrote this down because it's honestly beyond my pay grade. Gravity breaks down big and small scale. So it could be gravity A and gravity B. Specifically standard gravity. G is the tensor summation of three gravitational components. Gg, which G big G, little G, which is scalar gravity propagated by the graviton.

[Bob Lazar]

G by the graviton. So he's going with gravitons for that. Okay.

[Emily]

Ggp, dark energy, slash matter propagated by the gravit, gravitophoton and GQ vacuum field, a repulsive force propagated by the quintessence particle. So in addition to the standard four forces, gravity, electromagnetism, strong strong nuclear and weak nuclear eht, which is extended HEIM theory, which is named after him, adds two previously unrecognized gravitational forces, which brings us to six fundamental forces.

[Bob Lazar]

Wow.

[Emily]

And what I find interesting about that is there's a. Amy Eskridge is this anti gravity researcher who actually died under very mysterious circumstances. And she apparently was at the end of her life, kept talking about a sixth force.

[Bob Lazar]

That was like a sixth force, right? Sixth force?

[Logan]

Yeah, the sixth force is anti gravity.

[Chris Matteo]

That's what my group has a mathematical

[Logan]

equation to physically describe.

[Chris Matteo]

We have six force on lockdown.

[Emily]

And so I wonder about, you know, this book and there's these two guys in, in Germany who are very high conviction in this extended heim.

[Bob Lazar]

I'd like to read it.

[Emily]

Well, that's Yours.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, thanks. Of course. Oh, that's really interesting.

[Emily]

Isn't it interesting?

[Chris Matteo]

I. I'm also on that. I think it. It was not gravity. I don't think it is. I don't think it's gravity.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's something else.

[Bob Lazar]

It's something else. Yeah.

[Emily]

Something else. Yeah. Because if it were right, if it were gravity, well, that you'd normally see, it's a little black hole, little gravitational source. You'd just see everything getting sucked into it, no matter what.

[Bob Lazar]

Other things would have acted differently too.

[Emily]

Yeah. Light. Light lensing and.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. So it's. It almost feels like it almost has to be. It almost has to be.

[Emily]

It's almost like it had rude access to reality itself. Like it froze time.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, but if it froze time, how come the photons were still coming out of it? I. You see a glowing candle, it should be dark.

[Emily]

Can it. Can it freeze time in some local space but still confine it still the

[Bob Lazar]

photons are flying out.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Or maybe. And. And if you say, well, it doesn't affect photons, how come it made the black little ball? So what do you.

[Emily]

So have you. Where do you think, would you have a best candidate for what it is?

[Bob Lazar]

No, there.

[Chris Matteo]

There is.

[Bob Lazar]

No. That's why I think I. I mean, I lean towards. This is. This is another force, and just stop calling it gravity.

[Emily]

Gravity.

[Bob Lazar]

But do you think it's what Barry said? The only thing we know that does this is gravity. So we're calling it a gravity generator. Okay.

[Emily]

And then. And it's. And it's being created ostensibly due to this proton Bombardment of element 115. And then possibly you get 116, and then you get a decay.

[Bob Lazar]

And then if in fact all that's occurring. Occurring.

[Emily]

Yes. It's so interesting.

[Chris Matteo]

I mean, don't forget that in the film we did not include the mechanical watch experiment that was also conducted in the lab. So there was the candle, the black ball, and the mechanical watch. We didn't put it in there just because we wanted to shorten the film. But there's. There was another experiment, Bob, remember? And there was like a mechanical watch that just stopped.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

I mean, that's another indicator where Bob

[Bob Lazar]

said, just like that. I mean, it's kind of similar to the candle. It just stopped. But I could still see it.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's like it's freezing.

[Chris Matteo]

It's time.

[Bob Lazar]

It's freezing movement. Freezing movement, but not affecting anything else. There's nothing that just freezes a movement.

[Emily]

No, it doesn't. But that is really Time is so weird because we.

[Bob Lazar]

We only thing that inhibits kinetic energy. Energy. Right. Which would be. That would be really weird.

[Emily]

Well, it's so weird. Especially given all of the forms of possible kinetic energy. You're talking about a watch, a mechanical watch and a flame are very different things.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So that's so strange. While you were there, did you tell anybody what you were working on? You know, your, your wife at the time?

[Bob Lazar]

Nobody.

[Emily]

You told Gene Huff.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I told John Lear too.

[Logan]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And you even brought them to see.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. To see the test. Yeah. Because I had the test flight schedule.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Bob Lazar]

So I know it's on Wednesday night. Yeah. We're going out there and you guys are going to see it. This is John Lear, and today is March 22, 1989. We're standing just about eight miles due east of Groom Lake, Nevada, the super government secret Tesla site. And just a few minutes ago, we saw one of the government extraterrestrial UFOs fly over there. We all watched it for about seven or eight minutes. Right here I have my Celestron scope. It's eight inches. And I had had it focused in for about 15 seconds and saw for myself that in fact it was a disc there. There isn't much to see with the camera back in that day.

[Emily]

And that was while you were working at S4 or you showed them that, or was it afterwards?

[Bob Lazar]

That was. Boy, that's a tough question. That was while I was working there.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

When you saw the UFO with Gene Huff and John Lear and you, you kind of, you know, took them, what was it to the little mesa, Was it a mesa or.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it was right outside. It was.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Before, you know, before you get to the black mailbox, you know, the reason anybody knew about the black mailbox, everybody wanted to know where the road was that we turned down. When you come up the highway, it's this first dirt road you go down, but there's no landmarks around there. And if you keep going like another mile or two, there's a black mailbox. So I just said it's around the black mailbox.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And that just got repeated. And everybody thought, hot. It's a black mailbox. Black mailbox road is where it is. It's not anywhere near where it is.

[Emily]

When, when, when all you guys went up there and you saw the UFO fly. And I'm sure they were just totally shocked. Were you allowed back at S4 after that?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, well, the. Yeah, the first time they didn't know we were out there.

[Emily]

Oh, they didn't know.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Logan]

We.

[Bob Lazar]

We only got caught the last time.

[Emily]

Okay. So they get.

[Bob Lazar]

And then they would never have let me back.

[Emily]

So after the last time, you weren't left back there, right? That was it.

[Bob Lazar]

That was. That was absolutely it.

[Emily]

You refinished?

[Bob Lazar]

No, they're not gonna. Oh, come on back. It's. No, no.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

They were pretty pissed. Yeah.

[Emily]

Why did you decide to come out and approach?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know. Because, like, I was still getting followed. There was always somebody parked outside my house and I was starting to get scared and I, I, you know, I think that's when I first started telling Gene. I said, you know, hey, if all of a sudden I disappear, I'm working out at the site there. And eventually I told him. He said, why, are you working on secret weapons or something? I said, no, I'm working on this. And kind of told him, but I don't know, I'm just getting concerned about what's going on.

[Emily]

Why do you think they were following you?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know. It might just be normal security.

[Emily]

Did you take anything from the lab?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, not at that time. Okay.

[Emily]

Okay, Later. But that's interesting that they were. We'll file that away. But. But it's interesting that they were following you as if you had done something wrong when you were just showing up to work.

[Bob Lazar]

No, but I mean, you know, they were still doing. They allowed me in there and they were still progressing on my clearance. They were still going through background checks and. But they really wanted me on site, operating quickly, and they kind of let that slide because I've had clearance before. So, you know, but I. Yeah, they were looking at some other things too.

[Emily]

Got it.

[Bob Lazar]

That concerned them about you personally, about my relationship.

[Emily]

Okay, got it. And so. And then they were digging into that. That's kind of.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. You know, you have to have a stable family background if you're going to be. Be, you know, playing around with state secrets and stuff like that.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

They want you being crazy. They don't want you drinking. They're going to be checking out. You know, how you play with friends. If you were going to rages, I want to make sure.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, your wife isn't running around and they don't want any stress or any. Anything to.

[Emily]

But then at that point, if you see these, like, you know, black cars parked outside your house, why isn't your reaction, okay, I'm just gonna come to eat it. Like, they're gonna like, you know, give me like a colonoscopy as Far as, like, you know, literally, like knowing 360 everything about my life, but I'll be able to retain my job at S4. Or do you just. You get scared and you're like, I gotta. I gotta come out, or what?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't really remember how I felt back then, but I. I was just getting a little concerned.

[Emily]

Yeah. And did you.

[Bob Lazar]

I think it couldn't hurt to at least tell one person, you know, so did you want.

[Emily]

Because John Lear gave the files on you to George Knapp, right? Klas. Is that how it went down?

[Bob Lazar]

Or gave the files on me or gave the.

[Emily]

Like said like, you know, hey, yeah,

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, yeah, John Lear is the one that contacted George Knapp and said, you should speak to this guy.

[Emily]

Okay. So he played kind of intermediary. Did. Was he. He going rogue on his own or did you say, hey, can you contact, you know, George or somebody in the local news to help me get this stuff out?

[Bob Lazar]

No, I think, I mean, at that. Well, things were starting to get weird and I. I don't really remember how that went down, but I think, you know, George said, look, you gotta, you gotta get the information out publicly because that's the only way. That's the only thing that'll protect yourself. Is that. That's really stupid. I'm not gonna do that. And, you know, it was just a couple days later on. Well, maybe it's not that stupid.

[Emily]

So. And was it. Do you think it was self protection or idealism or you was a part of you, like, this needs to be out. This is crazy government hiding.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, but it was, it was an equal part of self protection too.

[Emily]

Yeah. No, fair enough. Lear is somebody, I think a lot of people have questions about, because he was.

[Bob Lazar]

He had crazy beliefs. Crazy beliefs, you know, I mean, some of this stuff was so ridiculous, you know, I would sit there and just talk to him and go, you are absolutely out of your mind if you believe. I mean, he didn't believe the sun was hot. And he said there were people living in the sun. So there's no one living in the sun, John. And said, yeah, they built the moon on Jupiter and that's where they manufactured it, and they towed it into Earth's arboret. What is giving you these ridiculous. Why are you believing this nonsense?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And how'd you meet him? Gene Huff was a real estate appraiser. And at the time, John was looking to get a loan on his house. And he had been on. George Knapp had a show on the record, like after the news. And John Lear had been on there back when he wasn't so. Well, I wasn't, I wasn't going to say he wasn't so crazy, but didn't have such crazy ideas, you know, I mean he was, look, he was an accomplished pilot, a brilliant guy and he had, you know, tons of files and had lots of great, great contacts. The only problem with John was he had no filter. Yeah, I mean he could have a four star general tell him something and he'll write it and put it in a file and he'll have some derelict that's walking by his house and go, I know, Jello thinks. And he'll go, all right. And he'll put him in the same file and they have the same level of credibility going, what are you talking about? You know, so he drove me crazy because of that. But he did, you know, earlier on he was, you know, less exotic with his theories and you know, had spoken to George Knapp. I had seen it on tv, so had Gene Huff. And anyway, he wound up doing the appraisal on his house and I went with Gene to, you know, help him measure it and you know, kind of got talking to John and that's how, how we met.

[Emily]

He's such an odd character because his father created the first business airliner in the U.S. yeah. Bill Lear, aviation legend.

[Bob Lazar]

Billier. Invented the autopilot, invented the eight track tape.

[Emily]

I mean, radio direction finder.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, he was, he was quite a guy.

[Emily]

He was.

[Bob Lazar]

And so he, I mean, he had a problem with John too. I mean, John was eliminated from, you know, his will. And John showed me as well, you know, every paragraph said, said, except, you know, everybody gets this stuff except John Olson Lear. Except John Olson Lear. I mean he was so angry at his kid, just completely removed him from

[Emily]

the well, may maybe apple fell far from the tree, like you know, as far as, you know, aviation engineering prowess or something. But John Lear won all sorts of records as a pilot. He was a very impressive pilot. Pilot.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh yeah. Credit is due where credit is due. I mean he had all kinds of world records and it's just, it's just his filter.

[Emily]

John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job at area 51s4. Like I think he had a UFO blog. And so do you think, like, why do you think it didn't come up in a background check that you were friends with this?

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, it did.

[Emily]

Oh it did.

[Bob Lazar]

They absolutely asked me about the first day.

[Emily]

Hey, okay, okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. What's your relationship with John? In fact that might have been the first question. Really? Yeah, at EG&G when I sat down. That's that? Yeah, it's the first thing they mentioned.

[Emily]

And what did you say?

[Bob Lazar]

I said, he's a crazy friend.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And I don't remember what else, but I just, you know, told him some stuff. Yeah, he's met him and yeah, he's fascinating. And. And I mean, John would just do the craziest stuff. You know, back then he'd. He flew L1011s, which is a big, big jet. You know, I know 400 people on it or something like that. And, you know, occasionally he'd call and just, you know, be like a Tuesday night, 8 o'. Clock, hey, you want to go to Minneapolis? Okay. All right, meet me down at the airport. Where is Suit? And. Come on. So he'd be a pilot and, you know, the pilot of the craft and I'd come on. He said, just come on the tarmac, I'll tell this guy. And, you know, walk up in the plane and he'd tell the co pilot and engineer, hey, this guy's from the faa, so he's just going to be observing us and taking it. So I take the jump seat behind the, you know, pilot and just fly with John.

[Emily]

Did he talk to you about UFOs before you got the job at S4, Area 51 1?

[Bob Lazar]

No, it didn't talk to me about him, but I mean, he spoke about them.

[Emily]

Did he ever.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I mean, he used to tell me there are aliens living in the mountains alongside. You know, I think it's i95 or something.

[Emily]

Right.

[Bob Lazar]

The highway. He said, yeah, there's a billion of them in there.

[Emily]

So crazy. Did he ever show you anything Billy Myers related?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't. I don't recall. I think, I think when I described. I think when I described the craft to him and drew it, I think he brought out the Billy Meyer book and he said, I think that's where I first. In fact, it is. That's where I first saw it. So we saw. We showed him the Billy Myers tape. I said, yeah, that's. That's not like the craft.

[Emily]

That's the craft that's so interesting. So, yeah, he kind of helped you piece it together. Is. Did he. Was he still. Still affiliated with. Because he was a CIA cargo pilot till 1983.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, that's true.

[Emily]

Did he continue flying for them after that or did he disappoint?

[Bob Lazar]

Okay, I don't think so.

[Emily]

Yeah, because he was. He's this interesting character to me. Because it seems like he has crazy access to Area 51. Like, he's, like, snooping around and taking photos of, like, F117s, and he even leaks the details of the F117 to George Knapping. But then he still, like, knows all the security guards there. So I'm like, what's his. What's his deal?

[Bob Lazar]

You know, I mean, I had been out at, you know, but before the S4 thing, you know, out in the desert in the middle of the night with binoculars and stuff, trying. Outside a tonopah.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, trying to get pictures of any new aircraft that's flying around. Because, I mean, he was obviously a big aviation buff.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, and I was into that, too. Sometimes I just go out and watch, you know, fighters taken off from Nellis Air Force Base, because you could get right up to the fence there and. And, you know, so it was. Yeah, he was definitely into snooping around and seeing whatever he could find out.

[Emily]

I. I mentioned Jacques Vallee earlier.

[Logan]

He.

[Emily]

You met him, right?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I met him. And, you know, we spoke briefly, and then from what I remember, somebody was talking about making a movie with him. And then after hearing about me and talking, they started talking about, well, maybe we won't. We'll do it on Bob instead. And he was super pissed off.

[Emily]

Really?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. And then from that point on, all of a sudden, you know, everything Bob said is crazy.

[Emily]

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

But, yeah, initially he was.

[Emily]

Because.

[Narrator/Host]

Because.

[Emily]

Yeah. He writes. He wrote a book called Messengers of Deception, and he writes about you. And he says, you know, Bob Lazar seems to be very legit. But he also talks about this pinel drink he drinks. You know, this. This drink he drinks, and the memory lapses it caused.

[Bob Lazar]

Now what?

[Emily]

There's no memory lapses. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

It's, you know, so it was like

[Emily]

this vitamin B shot that was, like, immunity related. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. That's all it was. Again, you know, we're working with completely unknown materials.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

We don't know what. And apparently people had severe reactions. Yeah. To some of this stuff just touching the craft. So. Yeah. So they had dealt with that before.

[Emily]

I feel like I can defend you on 99.9% of things. And then the one thing I have trouble with is the MIT thing, because that's the other thing circulating is it was. Did you get your master's there? Or you were sent there. Was sent there on a specific kind of program. Isolated program.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And then.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. And I did a. I. I did a lot of auditing in both places.

[Emily]

And then on. On Caltech. For Caltech. What was that? That. So you were sent to mit, and then Caltech was different.

[Bob Lazar]

Caltech was way before that.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

That was. You know, but.

[Emily]

And now, I don't know.

[Bob Lazar]

I guess if I really look through old paperwork and stuff, I can come up with things, but that. That's never been.

[Emily]

Yeah. And I think George Knapp found. I think some people who knew you at Cal Tech.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

One other question that people have is, why were you allowed to give him a tour of Los Alamos after, you know, you blew the whistle on Area 51? Like, why wasn't there this, like, nationwide directive at all of the national labs? Like, don't let this guy back.

[Bob Lazar]

Look, it was really nothing. I mean, we got on a southwest floor flight, came out there, rented a car, drove up. And I still knew all the guards and stuff like that. So I came up and he's. You know, it's like, lazar, you're back. Yeah, Just going in there to.

[Emily]

You know, so you think it was just like. It was just like a different time and.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, it's. You can't. Los Alamos is so much higher security now. I mean, it was so nonchalant back then. And we just wrote right into the experimental areas. Came over here, George, this is my dad, desk.

[Emily]

Were you surprised? Was a part of you nervous that there would be some red alert?

[Bob Lazar]

No, not at all. You were like, zero concern.

[Emily]

You didn't worry that there was any sort of coordination between Area 51 and

[Bob Lazar]

nobody knew what was going on there? It was, like I said, it was very lax atmosphere. In fact, a year or two after that, they were so concerned about that. I think they called it the Tiger team. Came in to test security there, and they failed so. So horribly that they just redid everything. And, you know, after that point, you're. Forget it. You're not going in. But, yeah, I, like, still had keys and things. Yeah, it was. It was not even a problem.

[Emily]

When did you start United Nuclear?

[Bob Lazar]

99. 2000.

[Emily]

Did you ever work with the government? With United Nuclear?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we still. We supply them. You know, they. They train. Department of Homeland Security, FBI. I mean, we. We sell them stuff all the time. Especially when they're training people to use radiation detection equipment. I mean, we'll give them or sell them, you know, radioactive sources so they can go hide something in a warehouse and give the trainees a Geiger counter. Go. Go find it, you know?

[Emily]

And did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as. As a liability given your, you know, late 80s experience at S4, Area 51. And they were just down to do contract work with you?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know. I don't know. You know, but one hand doesn't know what the other's doing in the government. Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's. It's kind of a mess.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and it's.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, in fact, part of, you know, United Nuclear, when it's just beginning. Some of the stuff we're selling was kind of questionable. You know, this could potentially, you know, be used for explosives or stuff like that. So went down to the FBI and reviewed everything with them, and they went, no, you can. That's cool. Went down to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. No, we're. We're good. You know, the Postal service. No, everything's good. All right, great. We're going to go selling it. And then, you know, rated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission, they come in with a SWAT team with machine. Woke my wife up out of bed with, you know, an M16 binder interface.

[Emily]

Jesus Christ.

[Bob Lazar]

You know, it's like, we checked with everybody. I didn't check with us. So don't you guys talk. So, yeah, one hand has no idea what the other's doing when it comes to the government.

[Emily]

Yeah, no, I believe that. Is there any part of you that thinks that they wanted you to come out and that they wanted some frameworks? Because to your point, it's maladaptive to have this completely shut out from like. Like to have a stem student who's talented and, you know, why go to the complicated.

[Logan]

Why?

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, why make it complicated and make me do it right, right. Just do it yourself.

[Emily]

Put out the high level framework.

[Bob Lazar]

What do you say?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

This whole complicated scenario with this guy coming in and hope that he does something you want that. That doesn't make any sense.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's fair. There's this John Lear interview where again, this is. It's impossible to parse. What the hell is going on with that guy?

[Bob Lazar]

Look, I have told. I have heard John Lear tell my story.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And it is so wrong. It's unbelievable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's unbelievable. I mean, he puts. I mean, he inserts himself in there in a prominent position, you know. Well, I got Bob, you know, to get the job to hear and just. And what are you talking. It's completely inaccurate, so.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he. He, in this interview, he says, look like. Yeah, Admiral McClellen who was a Navy admiral, came to me, and he was MJ level. You know, mj, obviously in the UFO lore would be like the elite, you know, kind of committee that governs this whole topic. Came to me and he said, we got to get Bob on the job because we know that we can hide his. It's. It's. In some ways, it's corroborating your story because it's saying, like, no, he was there. He was at S4. He was working on this stuff. But we need to get Bob specifically because we know we can have plausible deniability because they'll never be able to find his MIT records.

[Bob Lazar]

It turns out that MJ1, the head of MJ12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to. He thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything. I knew they investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him.

[Emily]

And then I. So I thought about that for a while and I was like, what the. What is this? And I don't. I couldn't even find an Admiral McClellan. And then.

[Bob Lazar]

I've heard that name before. But the thing is. You have? I.

[Emily]

That's interesting that you've heard it.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I have definitely heard the name. It could have come from John Lear, but I don't know. I mean, the thing is, some of the stuff he's saying absolutely can be true or absolutely cannot totally. I don't know. But I mean, you know, I love the guy. He's. He was. He was a great friend. He just thinks differently. And, I mean, it's sad he died. I wish I had spent more time with him.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

But after I moved, it was just impractical. But, yeah, I mean, if you're talking about statements John Lear made, boy, it's tough. It's really tough to find out what's accurate and what's not.

[Emily]

Decoding the Voynich manuscript or something. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, no, he's. He's a complicated guy.

[Bob Lazar]

He.

[Emily]

So I think. And we talked about this a little last night, and maybe this is an interesting follow up for this show is I think he might have been talking about a guy named Mike McConnell who became NSA director later later, but he was involved in some S4, Area 51 stuff related to Dan Barish, whose story, I think, honestly holds up a lot less than your story. But it's, it's, you know, it has to be noted because it's one other guy who's mentioning S4. And so Mike McConnell's kind of involved there, and he was a Navy admiral at the time. So I think about that and I'm like, I wonder if Mike McConnell was somewhat involved.

[Logan]

Involved.

[Emily]

When you came out as Dennis, was that a shot across the bow against Dennis Mariani?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, sure was.

[Emily]

So you were trying to kind of get at him a little bit. Yeah, yeah. What was. What were your feelings towards him? Kind of personally. Were you resentful or were you. Yeah. How'd you feel towards him?

[Bob Lazar]

I guess somewhat resentful. I don't know. It's hard to tap into how I felt back then.

[Emily]

Yeah. Why do you think. And I know Luigi, you might have some theories here, too. Why do you think Dennis wanted to meet up with you at the end of this whole saga at the casino and meet up with him at the casino, and then you're speaking to him and Gene Huff is looking, and he's just not even, like, looking at you. Like, what. What is that about?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know. I think Dennis really had something to say, and I don't know. I don't know if people from S4 got there and changed his mind. I don't know if he intentionally wanted me to go out there just to get me away from the house. I. I really don't know.

[Emily]

Because you got back to the house and something.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Things were missing. Yeah.

[Emily]

Anything of consequence?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. And you can talk about. No.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

So, you know, I mean, I don't know. It's all guesswork.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah. I mean, when we. When we sat down, even Gene Huff. I spoke to Gene Huff about that. And Gene's perspective to that was he saw Bob walk up to Dennis. And it's an important part because I always think about the fact that Gene Huff was there, there. Joe was also there.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were all. We all had eyes on him. Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

And. And what Gene said was, well, you know, Bob Lazar walks up to this guy, Dennis, this blonde, you know, military looking guy, and Bob's talking to him and the guy's not even looking at him. And that. That caught Gene's attention. It's like, you know, if Bob was making that up, what did he do? Just pick out a guy out of nowhere and starts talking if the guy. Guy was a nobody, he would have turned around and go, like, what do you want?

[Emily]

Yeah, he would have been like, stop talking. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

No, I. I mean, I kept saying, dennis, Dennis, I'm here. You know, what do you want? What. What's going on? I don't remember my exact words, but he never even looked up at me. And. Yeah, I just walked over to Gene and said, he's. I don't know what the deal is with Dennis. We both turned around, and he was gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

That's so interesting. So I. I wonder, a part of me wonders if he himself wanted to come out after you or something, or there was something he needed.

[Bob Lazar]

Unfortunately, it's all speculation.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

He could have wanted to come out. He might have been part of. Well, let's get Bob out of the house. Yeah, he could. There's a thousand. But there's no direction to go in.

[Emily]

I mean, that was so striking from the documentaries. They put a. Your gun was set up in your own car, and the doors were open in the. In the parking lot. Right. And then you walk.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, that happened more than once.

[Emily]

That's scary, man.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Did you.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. And, I mean, we would lock it and test the door and. Because it had happened before, and go, all right, it's locked, locked, locked.

[Chris Matteo]

Check.

[Bob Lazar]

Check every single thing. Okay, Mario, it's locked. It's locked. Okay. We go into the gym, we come back out, everything open.

[Emily]

Did you. Was there ever a moment where you were, like, over 50%, I might get assassinated?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, because it's why I said, we have to look under the car, see if there's something wired in there or a bomb. I mean, we were even afraid. The only thing that wasn't open, I think, was the hood where the engine was. So we were afraid to open the. That, you know, and finally did, but looked over the car. But, yeah, I was afraid there was a bomb on there or somebody wired it up. But I. As George said, I think they were just screwing with me.

[Chris Matteo]

Mario. You know, Mario, I've talked a lot with him, and we.

[Bob Lazar]

We.

[Chris Matteo]

We've really, really spent a lot of time, and it's hard to track. He. He also kept saying. It's really hard to, like, explain and express what that worry was, because I was with. He said, I was with Bob. We were scared that something was going to blow up. And he says, I was so going through my hard times that I didn't care. I just told Bob, stay out and I'll try it. And he would Start the car. Because he was like, fuck it. I'm going to do it. But you could sense that even from Mario's perspective, there was a real worry. And so, you know, this is. This is a. This is something that clearly was causing a of. Lot, lot of worry, not just for you, but for Mario as well, because it's like, what the hell is going on? The doors are unlocked again. And, you know, why are they doing this? So clearly you think something's. It could go wrong. So there. But whether they were trying to just intimidate or do something, whatever that was, it was happening according to. To those guys, to these guys.

[Emily]

Did you get the sense that there were maybe mob ties? Like, there was some. You know, they talk about the UFO legacy program sometimes, like it's a cartel or like a mafia that exists outside of the state. Did you get this? And obviously, you're, you know, going back and forth from Vegas, and Vegas is a hot spot for that sort of thing. Did you ever get that. That sense?

[Bob Lazar]

Not that it was the mob, per se. Yeah. But it was like these guys were disconnected from the government. Government.

[Emily]

Yeah, they were like their own.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, they were their own cabal.

[Emily]

You kind of get that vibe. Like, even I feel like John Lear was like. Like he had. You know, there's a picture with him and G. Gordon Liddy. Do you know that? Is this like.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I. I know the name. I don't remember who he is.

[Emily]

He's this FBI agent who was this kind of agent provocateur who was very involved in Watergate and stuff. And you get the sense that that whole world, like the. The people, the Mormons who were around Howard Hughes and there was a lot of mo. You know, there's a lot of mob activity there. Like, they were kind of like.

[Bob Lazar]

You could.

[Emily]

You could see a civilian government official calling them and then being like, off is the vibe.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

We're doing our thing.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

Is undeniable.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You think so?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

I'm 100% on that.

[Emily]

Yeah, I know you've also. Because, you know, you live in Montreal and there's stuff there, and I'm sure you. You've bumped into things. People.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah, I. I always talk about it when. When I talk. When I hear about all these government organizations and government secrets and the intelligence community, and I think a lot of researchers and a lot of people researching this should also pay attention to what organized crime did back then, back in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and how those organizations operated. And what they did, because it's a very similar way of keeping secrets. And, you know, I think that there is some tie somewhere. I'm not saying that they're involved and they're in charge of anything. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying there is clear motivation for somebody who's trying to keep a secret to have ties with. With, let's say, the mob. So that if ever something or somebody does start going to rogue.

[Bob Lazar]

Rogue.

[Chris Matteo]

Well, you could basically scare that person and say, well, you know, these guys will come after you and that'll scare somebody more than a lawyer will come after you.

[Emily]

That's right. Well, it seems like they, they were going after. They were going after your marriage. And like they. It's all blackmail techniques. Like, that's what it. It feels like it's compromise systems. And you look at.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, they weren't, they weren't taking the legal angle at all.

[Emily]

No, no. Which is really, if you want to enforce something like that's, that's the way you do it. Which is pretty wild. I mean, you see this stuff with the Epstein thing too, where it's just. They're just clearly. Is this distributed kind of compromise system and it deals with spooky sign. I don't know if you're tracking any of this stuff, but like, yeah, I

[Bob Lazar]

started looking into it that.

[Emily]

Isn't it wild?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's. It's really wild. And then he says, and it's so widespread spread.

[Narrator/Host]

It's widespread.

[Emily]

And here's what's crazy. He's interviewed by Steve Bannon, and Epstein is, this is at the end of his life. And he goes, why did you put Zorro ranch where you put it? And he goes, well, you know, a bunch of Los Alamos physicists were retiring, and so, you know, they were kind of aging out. And I wanted to speak with them.

[Bob Lazar]

Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists. And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that. Yes, because the scientists were going to. They cut the funding for high energy physics.

[Emily]

And you're like, oh, my God, how lax is our doe? You know, Department of Energy security. And then you realize, you know, Bill Richardson was kind of in with the Clintons and he was the secretary of energy, and he's there and he's just systematically siphoning American nuclear secrets, which. And then he goes, there's another email where he says, said, I killed Ponds back in the day, or whatever. And he's talking About Pons and Fleischman,

[Bob Lazar]

who are claiming to get cold fusion results.

[Emily]

And so it's like, what is Epstein dealing with? Cold fusion? Then he's. He's hanging out at Harvard with the math department.

[Bob Lazar]

None of that makes any sense.

[Emily]

It's weird.

[Bob Lazar]

None of that makes any sense.

[Emily]

Really strange.

[Bob Lazar]

I used to drive by that ranch all the time. I lived really close to it when I lived in New Mexico.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

And they always called it the Victoria's Secret Ranch because they were models there. Yeah. Everyone knew that is the Victoria's Secret Ranch.

[Emily]

So you would drive by Epstein's ranch, and they would call it the Victoria Secret Ranch.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, not right by it, but as you drive it on the road, you can see it up on that.

[Emily]

Yeah, we know why they called it that. It's because he was close with Les Wexner, who was the CEO and founder.

[Bob Lazar]

No, I didn't.

[Emily]

Of Victoria's Secret.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

So you would drive by there and they would call it that.

[Bob Lazar]

Everybody called it that.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

No way.

[Bob Lazar]

We'd drive up to Los Alamos to pick up alpha radiation probes that my company did, and, you know, we'd come back. But. Yeah. Every. Every time we drove out, we passed by it a couple times.

[Emily]

That's so nuts. Damn. So what do you do? Because, like, it's also for the people that are, like, disbelieve your stuff. It's like, look at all this bizarre. It's like this cabal is controlling science or something. You know, it's so weird.

[Bob Lazar]

That is really weird.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

And it's. Again, you know, I'll say it.

[Logan]

It's.

[Bob Lazar]

It's.

[Chris Matteo]

It's just. We're just talking about Epstein. That's one guy. That's one guy. It's not just one guy.

[Emily]

Clearly not.

[Bob Lazar]

No, it's not just one guy. It's not just one guy.

[Emily]

He's a front.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

It's just not. It's not just.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, he might have been the ringleader, but it's.

[Chris Matteo]

There's a lot of people.

[Emily]

Or he might have been an extension of something much. He could be, but he was obsessed with the Casimir effect. And he would hold these.

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, he was right.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He would hold these gravity conferences. And then the very fact that he said.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, do you know that for a fact?

[Emily]

Yeah. This is all in the emails. This is all fact. And. Yeah. There's an old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein, that talks about Casimir effect. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Wow.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. And so this old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein has this theory of everything in physics where, you know, involves gauging gravity instead of quantizing gravity. Beyond my pay grade, but I find it interesting. And Epstein, like somehow knew about his theory before, like just about anybody else did. And so Weinstein's like, how is Epstein so tied in with the Harvard Math department?

[Bob Lazar]

Like, do you think it was just his hobby or something? Like science was his hobby and he just had money. So he. The ability to connect to these.

[Emily]

I think you read his emails and it's like there's somebody behind him who knew exactly what to look for, but he didn't know. He was like a low level version of it. And so he'll say things like, you need to boost your physics. Time is much weirder than you think. It's actually just a function of the vibration of cesium atoms. And you're like, who's giving you this stuff? You know, and then he's sort of like mining people for the info and. Weird.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, did he. He said that?

[Emily]

He said that? Yeah, he.

[Bob Lazar]

Okay.

[Emily]

Which is true.

[Bob Lazar]

It is kind of atomic clock.

[Emily]

It's an atomic clock.

[Bob Lazar]

It's just a vibrating cesium. So. Yeah, I mean, it, it's true. I don't know if that's what time is, but time is our perception of time.

[Emily]

Time is very weird, isn't it? Wouldn't you say, in a. Just from a pure physics perspective, it's. It's a weird. It's an anomaly. It's strange. Like, like it's. We can't. It's the most used noun in the English language. But we can only define it with respect to the movement of macroscopic bodies or to oscillations on an electromagnetic wave. But it's not like a. It's a thing that we're like. It's almost like fish in a fishbowl where like the fish are trying to even describe what water is, but they don't. They can't because they're in it.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And that we're in time.

[Bob Lazar]

No. Yeah, you have to be outside of it to describe it. I mean, that's.

[Chris Matteo]

That's it.

[Bob Lazar]

And you can't be outside it. It's just. It's just a concept that makes us happy. Happy is what time is.

[Emily]

Do you think that there's something about time being weird that might help explain some of the UFO stuff?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I think there's. There's definitely something there.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Because if gravity's organic chunks that are missing from physics. And I think some people have Access to that.

[Emily]

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I mean the cosmic red sh. The other thing that this guy Burkhard Heim says is that the cosmic redshift is the repulsive form of gravity. And if you look at dark energy, you could literally just look it up. It's like this. It's not one of the four fundamental forces, but it's just, you know, the universe is inflating.

[Bob Lazar]

Dark energy really exists, right? Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Emily]

And dark matter too.

[Bob Lazar]

I'm not, I'm. Yeah, I'm not really buying either one of them.

[Emily]

Dark matter's never been detected, but it's just there to. It's a place holder to justify gravity's weakness.

[Bob Lazar]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean to me that's. I always viewed that's what gravitons were. That's why this caught my attention because he's.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Back on the graviton bandwagon.

[Emily]

Well, gravitons are interesting because as early as the 50s, you know, there's all this like crazy hardcore anti gravity research and then it kind of disappears.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

But you had a bunch of people saying we're going to be gravity. It's right around the bend. There's a guy named George Trimble who is a VP at Martin Corporations RIAs Research for Institute for Advanced Study. And he was this really wacky thinker and he worked with Lewis Whitten and probably Townsend Brown. And you know, they would say like it was. It's going to take us the time that it took to build the atom bomb to basically beat gravity. And they were Stanley Dessert and Richard Arnowit, who were famous physicists at the time from Princeton, were talking about gravitational. And they were like, we have a very clear theory of gravitons and we know how to do this. And the two things that come up for gravity, where there's a lot of smoke but no fire is the thing we just talked about with Bueller. Extremely high electric field differentials creating thrust. And then the second thing is very fast rotating, spinning superconductors. Those two things seem to have.

[Bob Lazar]

But is that actually gravity?

[Emily]

So there's another force.

[Bob Lazar]

Course 30 years has gone by and I've kind of been doing my own research and I'm just more convinced that, that I'm right about that.

[Emily]

And can you say anything about that? What do you think you're right about?

[Bob Lazar]

That there's another force and it's not gravity.

[Emily]

And what is the. If you were to characterize that force as distinct from gravity. So gravity clearly you'd have all these other byproduct effects, the photons. And what, what's, what does this force do that's different? What is it? What does it look like?

[Bob Lazar]

Well, it's a, it's a repelling force. But I, I think it's something that works closer to the way you would think in a science fiction movie. You can have gravity and anti gravity, but you really can. I think gravity is just an attractive force. I think this other force course you can, you can, to make simplify it, push or pull. And I think it, it also affects the flow of time. Exactly like gravity does. I think it affects light. It does. Some of the, some of the observations you would have with gravity would also overlap in the southern force. But I think it's, I think it's a unique force.

[Emily]

Have you ever measured this force?

[Bob Lazar]

Course.

[Emily]

Next question.

[Bob Lazar]

All right. Yeah.

[Emily]

You have?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

How have you measured it?

[Bob Lazar]

Oh no, no, there's no follow up question.

[Emily]

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, fine, fine, fine. Is there anything kind of high level that you can say as far as your, the goal of your research, you know, post the experience? Like what?

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, just to duplicate anything.

[Emily]

Just to duplicate anything.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I'm sure I can.

[Emily]

You think you can?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I'm sure I can.

[Emily]

You feel confident?

[Bob Lazar]

I'm a hundred percent confident. Yeah. I, I'm going to, yeah.

[Emily]

Have you already gotten some interesting results?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

That's why I'm 100 confident. Yeah. The thing is just to scale stuff up. Yeah. Okay.

[Emily]

What do you hope your legacy is? So like 200 years from now no

[Bob Lazar]

one's gonna know who I am?

[Emily]

I don't, I don't think that's right, man. Think about it like if there are these, you know, this lineage of technology that is completely separate.

[Bob Lazar]

Come on. I'm gonna be overwritten by people. Look, there's other Bob Lazars and things that are gonna come along. Look what's happening. All the people that came out since then. You know, there's gonna be other people like me. Eventually some more of this is gonna come out and yeah, they're amazing.

[Emily]

They're amazing people who've come out since you. First and foremost.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. And there's going to be bigger, more important ones that you just aren't going to look back to the 80s and think you're just going to focus on those guys.

[Emily]

Well, I would put it the invert. I would say if you have like an army of people coming out after you, the fact that you're the first makes it even more interesting, I think. Well, it's. It's more likely you'd be forgotten if no one comes out after you. Do you hope to vindicate your own experience through your own scientific experiment?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.

[Emily]

That's exciting.

[Bob Lazar]

That's cool. But I have no idea what other people are doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know exactly what not to do. That's what we did at S4. So it's actually a big leap forward.

[Narrator/Host]

And you saw one hanging up against the wall.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it was sitting on the wall. And ahead. There's actually an error in the movie. It has one hole in. In the remove it. Not two, but. Yeah, there was just a hole with it bent out. Clearly bent out, as if it was shot from the bottom.

[Emily]

Why do you think? Oh, and it looked like it was shot.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Interesting. So do you think it was shot with like a kinetic weapon or mechanical weapon?

[Bob Lazar]

No. No question.

[Emily]

Whoa. And do you think it was a human weapon that shot it?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know. It looks like something we would have done to stand it up, shoot through it, see how. How we can penetrate this material. Whoa.

[Emily]

Do you. Have you ever heard anything about, like, electromagnetic pulses and UFOs and them taking out UFOs taking them down or anything or.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, that was a. That was the other directive of the project.

[Chris Matteo]

Project.

[Emily]

It was directed energy.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, yeah, it depends what you're talking about. There's. I mean, our directive was duplicate. The propulsion system at any cost is directive one. And directive two was be able to disable the system at a distance at any cost.

[Emily]

Do you think?

[Bob Lazar]

And then. So that's somewhat directed energy. But then there's also Project Sidekick, which is a weapon, and so that's also directed energy. So. Yeah, it kind of depends where you're

[Emily]

going with that, I guess. Had you heard of any UFOs prior to that? Getting shot down with directed energy with electromagnetic pole. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I think the only thing I ever heard prior to that was stories about the Roswell craft getting hit by lightning and crashing or something. I think it's the only.

[Emily]

Are there any of these stories like, like, do you think. Think that Roswell happened? Are there any of these stories you lend credence to?

[Bob Lazar]

I don't know much about the, The Roswell crash other than, you know, what I've. What I've heard, but it sure seems like they were working real hard to cover something up.

[Emily]

That's true.

[Chris Matteo]

The Roswell crash was not one. Crap.

[Bob Lazar]

It was.

[Chris Matteo]

It was not in one Place only

[Emily]

though it might have been a round of two.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

I, I really think it was. Was there was something that happened in the air and there's like debris that was scattered all over Mac Brazil's ranch. And then there was the actual pod with the beings that was crashed. I think it was like a.2 miles away where the hikers found it with the kids that were hiking. And so clearly it was two different places. And the bamboo, the. The pieces that look like bamboo with

[Bob Lazar]

the, the, the writing.

[Chris Matteo]

Writing on it. That was at Mac Brazil with the, the memory metal and then the pod. The only information we have of that is the bodies. And one of them was already being eaten by some animals.

[Emily]

No way. The body was being eaten.

[Chris Matteo]

One of them, One of. From what I remember reading and at the time, there's. One of them was obviously dead and it was decaying. Like there was an. It was clearly some animals that got to it.

[Emily]

Whoa.

[Chris Matteo]

So, so. But that was.

[Bob Lazar]

I hadn't heard that. But the only, what. The only thing I remember about that was Jesse Marcel was the.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

Military.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Right. And he said when, you know, they came to take pictures or the pictures they took, he said, that wasn't the stuff that we found. Whoa, what?

[Chris Matteo]

General Ramy.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, he said. Yeah, they replaced it with. He said, that's not what we found. Well, that's the guy.

[Emily]

Guy. And there's that iconic photo and it's him with this like tin foily weather balloon thing.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

He claims that the material was right off to the side. Yeah. Frame.

[Bob Lazar]

And so he said. Yeah, that's. That's not the stuff.

[Emily]

And his son, who's an Air Force flight surgeon, said that he took the material home and he played with the material.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

On the crazy.

[Chris Matteo]

On the kitchen table with his wife.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And here's what's where stuff gets even crazier. In 1949, there is a contract between Battell Memorial Institute and Wright Airfield, which turns into Wright Patterson, which is where the wreckage, the Roswell wreckage was rumored to be taken. And it's like around alloys like titanium, different titanium alloys, and this titanium nickel alloy and nitinol. Nitinol, yeah. Nitinol. As you know, memory metal is basically memory metal. And nitinol was classified, essentially showed up in a Navy lab in the 60s.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And that's what Jesse Marcel describes the material was.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Because that's, that's really indestructible stuff.

[Narrator/Host]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

And I remember him saying, in his vernacular, we g. We whacked that as hard as we could, you know, and. Right. And it. It didn't bend. And I. I remember that they tried to burn it. They tried to cut into it. Yeah.

[Emily]

And it just goes back into its original shape. And I just actually interviewed.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, it's one of the. I mean, you can take that metal and flex it a million times, and it doesn't crack. It's what they. I mean, they use that in artificial hearts because you can. It can keep flexing and it just doesn't wear.

[Emily]

It's wild. And then. And then you have Philip Corso saying that he helped dole out a lot of this material and it made it into the civil sector because of his position. He was, you know, Pentagon's like, you know, foreign technology desk or whatever. Chief. And so you have this contract from 49. Nobody knew what Nitinol was. Nitinol was. And then in the 60s, it appears in public randomly at a Navy lab. It's interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

That's really interesting. I never heard any of that.

[Emily]

And I just interviewed a guy who was a witness, actually, of the Virginia crash in the 1990s, 1996, in Brazil. And he says the same thing. He says he held the material in his face, hands, and it went. He would kind of mess with it, and then it would go back into its original form. So did you ever experience anything like that with the material? With material that would go back into its original form? Did you hear anything about that?

[Bob Lazar]

No. Other than working with nitinol?

[Emily]

Yeah, but you did work with nitinol.

[Bob Lazar]

I sell it.

[Emily]

But did you work. You didn't work with it? No, not.

[Bob Lazar]

No, not at all.

[Emily]

Okay, so you didn't hear anything around that there?

[Bob Lazar]

No, not a peep.

[Emily]

Did you hear anything about any other materials?

[Bob Lazar]

No, that's material science. We're not allowed to know that stuff.

[Emily]

Oh, okay. So that was a whole other.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Interesting.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Which is really stupid.

[Emily]

And you saw a photo or photos of an alien autopsy, Right?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. If in fact, that was true, do you think it was part of the. The briefing? What did.

[Emily]

What did the photos look like?

[Bob Lazar]

I guess, if you want to call it a gray. Something small. It had a tea cup cut in the chest, and there was one single organ removed from the chest.

[Emily]

Was that kind of a visceral experience for you? Is that kind of, you know, gnarly, or were you like, ah, no, you

[Bob Lazar]

know, at this point, I'm going, what am I looking through? Yeah, you know, was just kind of all glancing through, like, give me a break.

[Emily]

So there were rumors that the program was going to maybe move to Indonesia or Southeast Asia when you were leaving. Is that right?

[Bob Lazar]

No, no, they. They were. They were anxious to move the project out of there completely. And, you know, ideally, they said they would have loved to go out to the South Pacific, maybe Kwajalen island or something, but they said the expenses would have been so great, it's just impossible. But they just want her to get away from eyes. It's just too close to things.

[Emily]

If you had to guess, do you think that the program is completely out of Area 51 and in some foreign place now?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I don't. I don't believe it's there anymore.

[Emily]

That would make sense.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. I don't believe it's there. I think that moved way long ago. Yeah.

[Emily]

And you discovered element 115, right?

[Bob Lazar]

It wasn't discovered. It's something Barry and I. I were working on.

[Emily]

Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

So, I mean, you can't really say I discovered it.

[Emily]

Okay. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

You know.

[Emily]

Oh, I thought your contribution was that you.

[Bob Lazar]

Our contribution? It was what I was doing.

[Emily]

Okay. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. But what. I can't say it was just me.

[Emily]

What technique?

[Bob Lazar]

It was the. God. What the hell was it that we were using? Oh, atomic absorption spectroscopy.

[Emily]

Atomic absorption spectroscopy?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And you did that?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had the equipment there. We also discovered element diffraction, too. Wow. Yeah. It wasn't. Barry was much more familiar with the equipment, but.

[Emily]

And you. But you don't know the exact isotope?

[Bob Lazar]

No.

[Emily]

Did you know it at one point, like, when you discovered it? Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You did?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

But you forgot the.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I have. I have no idea. Oh, man.

[Emily]

Because that would be. That. Yeah, I know.

[Bob Lazar]

It would really help.

[Emily]

It'd also be a Nobel Prize for you. It would be like, oh, my God. They figured out, like, a new isotope

[Bob Lazar]

at that level, But I'd have to be able to produce it or.

[Emily]

Sure.

[Bob Lazar]

You know.

[Emily]

Right, right, right. So it doesn't matter anyway. Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, but, you know, the lab in Darmstadt, Germany, produced, you know, a few atoms of 115. So, I mean. They discovered 115.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

So, I mean, they. They made it. You know, we. Yeah, we recognized it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

So.

[Emily]

But if you.

[Bob Lazar]

I don't think it would help you, because it's not like, you know, the way we try to synthesize, you know, new elements is, you know, taking ions and smashing them together. And it's kind of whatever comes out, comes out. It's not like you can go, we're gonna make a specific isotope and make it all stick together. It's just like, you know, it's the old smashing the Swiss watch against a concrete wall. Oh, look what came out. You know, that's it.

[Emily]

If you possibly took a little bit home, though, could you do some of those techniques and do it?

[Bob Lazar]

No, couldn't.

[Emily]

You couldn't, because you don't have.

[Bob Lazar]

I can't. Yeah, you need the equipment. I mean, you need the equipment, like, you know, accelerators and things. That's.

[Emily]

So you don't have.

[Bob Lazar]

Like that.

[Emily]

So you wouldn't have the stable isotope at home.

[Chris Matteo]

Are you.

[Emily]

You do or maybe.

[Bob Lazar]

Well, I don't have it at my house. Okay, but that's what you're asking.

[Emily]

But you didn't you at one point maybe take it home? Yeah, so that. But then.

[Bob Lazar]

Are we recording?

[Emily]

Yeah, but no.

[Bob Lazar]

So no.

[Emily]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

But then can't. But then can you figure out the isotope if theoretically you did or. No.

[Bob Lazar]

Now? Yeah, okay. Yeah, you could. All I'd have to do is have it again. Okay.

[Emily]

Oh, I see. That's a bummer. I hosted a debate between Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis. Eric Weinstein's this former colleague of mine who's a physicist. And then Eric Davis is this other guy in UFO world who focuses on exotic propulsion. Weinstein said that. He was kind of exasperated. He was like, why are there no physics theoretical physicists on the program? But you talk about theoretical physicists on site at S4 for sure. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

I think they were exhausted by him. And I think they, they kept going over that road and never got anywhere interesting. And they were, they were looking for just. Let's just do something out of left field and see what we come up with. So, no, I don't know. Again, that's what made me think this isn't gravity at all. This is a new force entirely.

[Emily]

Yeah, and you know what I found interesting too, is you said bismuth seemed to have come up, like that was something.

[Bob Lazar]

There is something about bismuth

[Narrator/Host]

you might be starting to notice. Notice a through line starting to emerge in this conversation, and it keeps leading back to the same place. To put it bluntly, Bob's work at S4 looks a whole lot like all of the documented knowledge we have on anti gravity experiments done in the last 100 years. Now, again, these claims don't lie in the realm of conventional, proven science, but while there's no proverbial fire, there is a whole lot of smoke around them. I'm talking not only of the experiments of Townsend Brown, but of Eugene Pokletnov, Ning Lee and others. And one single element might tie all of these stories together. Bismuth. There's a reason why Bob Lazar kept hearing about it at S4. Here's why. Bismuth. We'll break down the science as clearly as we can. It starts with something called a K factor. A K factor or dielectric constant is simply a material's ability to store and discharge electric fields. Now this has important implications for historical anti gravity experiments. You see, the higher the K factor, the more thrust or propulsion you see in Townsend Brown's capacitor experiments. Brown spent his career searching for high K materials that could amplify the effect he'd discovered. Discovered Bismuth is one of them. And it's often mentioned in the context of his anti gravity work.

[Emily]

There's even an interview from this guy, Lewis Whitten, who's at rias, which is Martin Corporation, pre Lockheed merger, their anti gravity outfit, where they were studying sort of the most exotic propulsion modalities. And he says in this interview with the American Institute of Physics, there's a guy named Townsend who claimed to have an isotope of bismuth that repelled instead of attracted.

[Narrator/Host]

Material that works well for historical antigravity experiments comes up in the UFO reverse engineering program. Go figure. But it gets weirder. Bismuth and element115 share the same number of valence electrons. Valence electrons are the electrons in the outermost shell of an atom, the ones that determined how an element bonds, reacts and behaves chemically. Bismuth has 5. Moscovium, or element 115, has 5. They sit in the same column of the periodic table, group 15, which means they have essentially the same chemical personality, the same bonding geometry, the same family of crystal structures, the same tendency to form the layered compounds that produce the most apt, exotic quantum behavior known to material science. Lazar described element 115 as the fuel source for the craft's propulsion system. Mind you, this was in 1989, before element115 had ever been synthesized or named. When it finally was synthesized in 2003, it turned out to be a nyctogen, a group 15 element, the same chemical family as bismuth and bismuth. Bismuth is basically the most electromagnetically bizarre stable element on Earth. That's either the most chemically literate lucky guess in history, or it isn't a guess at all. Now here's where the science gets genuinely strange. Bismuth is one of the most unusual elements on the periodic table. Most high K materials are passive they sit there holding charge and do nothing else. Bismuth is different. It fights back. Expose bismuth to a magnetic field, and instead of being attracted the way iron pushes towards a magnet, it pushes away. This property is called diamagnetism. And bismuth has more of it than any other stable element on Earth. Not slightly more dramatically, anomalously, inexplicably more. The reason lives inside the atom, atom itself. Every electron does two things simultaneously. It orbits the nucleus like a planet around a star, and it spins on its own axis like a tiny top. In lighter elements, these two motions barely register each other. But bismuth sits near the bottom of the periodic table at element 83, one of the heaviest stable elements that exists. And in super heavy elements, such something extraordinary happens. The electrons in the outer shell move so fast that they enter what physicists call the relativistic regime. They're traveling at a meaningful fraction of the speed of light. And when something moves that fast, the universe starts playing by different rules. At those speeds, Einstein's physics takes over from Newton's. One consequence is that these screaming, hurling outer electrons generate a powerful magnetic field just from their own motion. And that magnetic field slams into their own spin. This is a process called spin orbit coupling. And in bismuth, it's ferociously strong. So strong that bismuth's electrons become, in a sense, magnetically self aware, generating an opposing field in response to, to anything applied to them from the outside. So that's why bismuth has anomalous diamagnetism. The electrons aren't just passive, they're pushing back.

[Bob Lazar]

The most amazing thing is leaning into it, putting all your force on that. Nothing moves at all. And when the reactor's off, you can easily slide it.

[Narrator/Host]

This also makes bismuth a natural topological dopant, meaning when you introduce it in into certain crystalline materials, it induces what physicists call topologically protected quantum states. These are electron states so geometrically locked into the structure of the material that they can't be destroyed by disorder or impurities. They are, in a very real sense, protected by the shape of reality itself. Element 115, with the same five outer electrons as bismuth, would have dramatically stronger relativistic effects. And it would theoretically be an even more powerful topological dopant. Best hosted physicists predict and chalcogenide crystal structures, which happen to be the exact crystal family that bismuth based topological insulators already prefer. Same column, same electrons. The dial just turned up to a level we've never Engineered. Okay, I know what you're thinking. How do you get from this exotic chemistry jargon to UFO propulsion or a force that bends spacetime? Well, here's where the chemistry ends and something bigger begins. In Einstein's general relativity, energy and momentum in all forms, including the energy stored in fast spinning relativistic electrons, technically curves spacetime. Every electron is, in the most literal physical sense, warping the fabric of the universe around it. Now, for ordinary matter, this effect is so incomprehensibly tiny, it effectively doesn't exist. But a small. A small group of serious physicists began asking dangerous questions in the 1990s. What if instead of spinning randomly in all directions, their gravitational effects canceling each other into noise, you could align them into a single coherent state, all pointing in the same direction, all pushing together? This was the Life's work of Dr. Ning Li, a favorite physicist who dared to dabble in anti gravity. More specifically, she worked in gravidomagnetic theory. Lee was a woman who eventually left her position at the University of Alabama Huntsville to work full time at Redstone Arsenal on research so sensitive it effectively vanished from public view. And the chair of her department at University of Alabama, Huntsville, Larry Smalley, was so high conviction in her work work that he left with her before she died. Li proposed that in superconductors, materials where electrons surrender their individual identities and merge into a collective quantum state, the gravidomagnetic effect of those electrons, normally washed away by thermal chaos, would suddenly snap into alignment. They'd become coherent, directional. She was trying to build a gravity engine and a laboratory. Let's compare that with Bob Lazar's work on UFOs. In the 80s, years before Ning Lee's work ever became public, Lazar described three cylindrical emitters at the base of a craft. The emitters at the base of Lazar's craft didn't produce thrust in the traditional sense. They didn't push against air or expel mass. They generated a directed alteration of the gravitational field itself that the craft would then just fall into, not propulsion geometry. The craft didn't move through space. It literally bent space, and space carried it. That description organized field generating devices producing a directional gravitational effect by aligning and focusing a force that normally cancels itself to zero is structurally almost precisely what Ning Li was theoretical theorizing in a laboratory thousands of miles away, using completely different source material, arriving at exactly the same place years later, when the craft

[Bob Lazar]

is in operation, there is a high voltage detectable on. On the skin of the craft.

[Narrator/Host]

And then there's the hull of the craft. Lazar said that he believed the craft's hull material was an electret, basically a material that permanently stores an electric field, the electrical equivalent of a permanent magnet.

[Bob Lazar]

I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so it always, just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it, an electric always has an electrostatic field to it. Interesting. And I think that's certainly something important.

[Narrator/Host]

Again, bismuth titanate is one of the finest electric materials known, used in high temperature temperature sensor applications precisely because of its stability. Now, if you were designing a hull material for a craft that needed to interact with gravity wave emitters, maintain a permanent electric field, and respond to both electric and magnetic stimuli simultaneously. The material that checks every single box is bismuth ferrite. That's right. Again with the bismuth. It's a material that is simultaneously mostly ferroelectric and magnetic, where the two properties talk to each other, where you can control one with the other. No other readily available material sits at the intersection of diamagnetism, topological insulator behavior, high K dielectrics, electret properties and multiferroic coupling simultaneously. But bismuth does, in a theoretical stable version of element 1, 3, 15 might do all of those things on steroids. Bismuth sits right at the edge of where relativistic electron behavior begins to dominate everything. By the time you get to Moscovium, you might have full fledged space time engineering.

[Emily]

And then what's really interesting is Gary Nolan has this magnesium bismuth piece in his lab at Stanford. You'd need some sort of motive to, you know, with. In certain cases, heavier elements create isotope ratios that you just don't find on Earth. It doesn't make any sense from like. And then it also, the thing was found alongside a, like an observed anomaly in the sky and a crash. And it was like in the 50s or 60s, like, one of, one of which was literally a beach in Brazil,

[Narrator/Host]

Ubatuba, and the similar between Brown and Buehler's antigravity and Lazar's sports model. Don't stop there.

[Emily]

Brown would use DC pulsing and like, you know, kind of high climb rates of the voltage so that the voltage would, there'd be a steep climb rate where it would, you know, increase very, very sharply. The micro sizing waveguides for terahertz, you could have very high frequency, you know, energy going into the craft.

[Bob Lazar]

There's something about, about bismuth. I think that's. Yes, that yeah, that's undiscovered.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Bob Lazar]

And so much that we're unable to do because it's at the limit, you know, of our technology.

[Narrator/Host]

Bismuth et S4, Bismuth in Townsend Brown's experiments, Bismuth's properties in Ning Lee's gravidomagnetic theory. Bismuth as an ideal hull material for ufo and exactly like the one Lazar described. Bismuth and the UFO samples that Stanford Professor Gary Nolan is analyzing right now.

[Bob Lazar]

The preponderance of evidence now and the Department of Defense admitting that these things are real. The data is real, not what the.

[Chris Matteo]

There's no conclusions.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, the data is real. There's so much more than there was 40 years ago.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

I mean, all these guys are at the cutting edge. All my information is so old and probably outdated. So who knows how the craft operate now or what kind of craft they're using or if they're even manned. So that's true. I think everything I know is outdated. It's just interesting to look back at. I don't take any money from this stuff. And as far as attention, I hate attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So that's. I got enough hugs when I was a kid

[Emily]

and do you feel like you've, you know, on the first Rogan episode you had migraines. Do you feel like you've suffered for, like, your anxiety levels are higher than they would be?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I had five heart attacks since I had. Was on the Hoke Rogans and. And my arteries are clear. It's all stress.

[Emily]

I'm sorry, man.

[Bob Lazar]

I just had shingles all through my face. Almost made me go blind again. Was from stress. It's. Yeah, it's just. Just wears you down over time.

[Emily]

I hope you know, you're. You're loved and appreciated and you should be able to just zone out the world with where you're at in life right now and just enjoy the fruits of this, you know. Amazing.

[Bob Lazar]

That would be cool. I am so hoping to be able to retire at some point where I don't have to deal with insane customers or. Yeah, I could just sit at home and read books like this and.

[Emily]

Yeah, I think that time is very, very soon. And I think it's the best use of your brain power too, because I want to see.

[Bob Lazar]

I'd actually like to get back in. Into this stuff.

[Emily]

That'd be amazing. Well, I'll send you interesting people. Okay.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah. Well, I'll. Yeah, I'll consume everything you can send.

[Emily]

I love it. Oh, yeah. Be careful what you wish for. Well, Bob, Luigi, this was a total honor, and you should be so proud because I know you were into this stuff. I feel very lucky when people say, like, oh, like, you should feel vindicated. They'll say that to me. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking. I was like, I got very lucky with the timing of, like, when I got into this stuff. But truly, I speak to you and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, there are people like yourself who've been into this stuff for decades in a totally thankless way. Like, not only thankless, but less than. Less than thankless. Ostracized, exiled, laughed at constantly. And so. So to anybody out there saying Luigi's cashing in on a, you know, movie or something like that, fuck off. Like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Bob Lazar]

It is.

[Emily]

It's. It's poetic justice and karma that you made this movie, truly. So I want you to know that.

[Chris Matteo]

That I appreciate that.

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, man.

[Emily]

Did you ever think that we'd be here now? That, like, we'd be, you know, on. On our podcast, watching you on Joe Rogan with Bob? Yesterday,

[Chris Matteo]

when you guys were talking, I was reading a message from my sister Veronica, who's been. It's hard for me to see it that way because you can't imagine everything that happened. And for me to get it from her is, like, the biggest success because I put her in danger because of this. And I didn't know if it was gonna work. I still don't know where it's going. But

[Bob Lazar]

we.

[Chris Matteo]

We just went for it. Knowing that, you know, all the past, there's a lot of negative associated to it. And I'm so proud of the team. I'm proud of Chris Matteo. That's like, my right hand and all. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Chris. Chris. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Veronica. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Emily that was at the office taking care of everything.

[Bob Lazar]

She.

[Chris Matteo]

We all know who that is. It wouldn't exist for Vanessa to be doing all this minutia work online and finding all. We wouldn't have found the Ed Teller tape if it wasn't for Vanessa. And this was scary.

[Bob Lazar]

This is. This project depleted your company to zero to zero.

[Chris Matteo]

And we were attacked.

[Bob Lazar]

Attacked.

[Chris Matteo]

Nobody knows this, but we were attacked ferociously for over a year and a half.

[Emily]

Yeah. And we're. I know the full story and we probably can't get too, too into the weeds, but I'll just say high level. There was some really crazy scary that occurred with you on an institutional. Yeah, like debanking level kind of thing where it's like, like what sort of power do these people have as far as the antibodies, you know, going against

[Bob Lazar]

you and unbelievable stuff.

[Chris Matteo]

Yeah. Stuff that all the. If you say sounds so crazy that you don't want to say it because people won't.

[Emily]

Yeah. They're like, give me a break.

[Bob Lazar]

Come on.

[Emily]

You know, have you, have you experienced that your whole life? Have you experienced like little things?

[Bob Lazar]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Any.

[Bob Lazar]

But I didn't expect this to happen to Luigi. Yeah. Not coming from those people. Yeah. Getting, you know, or demanding. Luigi, we want all your communications with Bob Lazar. Yeah.

[Chris Matteo]

On a court doc.

[Emily]

On a court.

[Bob Lazar]

On a court document. Yeah, we want. What the hell are you talking about?

[Emily]

You know, have you ever gotten something like sir, we can't accept your payment here. You're like, what? Anything like that. It's a little weird.

[Bob Lazar]

What do you mean we can't accept

[Emily]

like something like that. You know, something like, like there's something going on in the background of some routine thing you're trying to do. Go to a bank. You go to, you know, a store.

[Bob Lazar]

We're just, we don't want to deal with.

[Emily]

We don't want to deal with you. And you're like, why?

[Bob Lazar]

Yeah, I mean that has, that was a long time ago. A couple things like that happened decades ago. Do you remember now? I don't remember.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Bob Lazar]

Specifically.

[Emily]

But people kind of messing with.

[Bob Lazar]

But yeah, on an official level they said, you know, you're radioactive. We don't to want to deal with you.

[Emily]

It's tough, man. Well, you found the one. The one gig you could get which is selling this A lot of this crazy stuff too. It's cool. Well, this has been such an honor. I, I, I really appreciate you both

[Bob Lazar]

and it's always fun coming.

[Chris Matteo]

It's always fun, Jesse. It's always great, man.

[Narrator/Host]

Okay, so there are orange reddish UFOs that have been flying around Area 51 since the 80s and 90s that wobble like they're on a wave at low altitudes. The sports model UFO Bob worked on might use principles similar to documented anti gravity research. And crafts of non human origin are being recovered at the bottom of our oceans all over the world by the Navy. Bob Lazar will either be forgotten entirely by history as he predicts, or at least as I predict he'll be heralded as a canary in the coal mine, the forerunner in a stampede of revolutionary new science. Whether you believe or disbelieve his story, it should be treated as a puzzle with very real truths underlying it, meant to be discovered by those who take the initiative. So if you think there's something to any of this, don't let up. As the first man on the moon, Neil Armstrong once cryptically said, set.

[Bob Lazar]

There are great ideas, undiscovered breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers. Layers. Layers.

[Narrator/Host]

If you're still watching and you made it through all of the exotic UFO science, you're one of the first to hear about this. We just dropped a new limited merch collection. Two tees, one off white, one vintage black, plus hat. The design has a timeless retro future feel. You can wear it every day. If you've been watching the show lately, you've probably already seen me wearing it. This is a limited run, so when it's gone, it's gone. Head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab the Believe drop Today.

[Emily]

Today.

[Narrator/Host]

And while you're there, the cowboy UFOT is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.