Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]"

Podcast: American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Host: Jesse Michels
Guests: Jim Weiner, Charlie Foltz
Date: May 10, 2026
Topic: The Allagash UFO Abduction – Firsthand Account, Investigation, and Aftermath

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jesse Michels sits down with Jim Weiner and Charlie Foltz, two of the four men at the heart of the infamous 1976 Allagash, Maine abduction case—one of America’s most perplexing UFO stories. They recount their experience canoeing in the Maine wilderness with friends when they encountered what they now believe was an alien craft. The conversation dives into their background, the context of the abduction, the missing time, physical and psychological aftereffects, the subsequent investigation, hypnotic regression, and meditations on how the experience changed the trajectory of their lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Allagash Wilderness (06:12–12:28)

• Allagash Water System and Prep: All four men (all artists in their mid–20s, studying or recently graduated from arts programs in Boston) set out for a rigorous, 17-day canoe trip in August 1976, after climbing Mount Katahdin.
  • “We were enjoying the experience of the wilderness…acquiring gear, meals ready to eat, and planning extensively.” – Jim Weiner (04:24)
• Context of the Wild: The Allagash is an untouched, primitive environment, with stringent ranger protocols for safety.
  • “No houses, pure wilderness…they check your gear, itinerary, and patrol daily.” – Charlie Foltz (11:06)

2. Early Life Anomalies and Precursor Experiences (12:45–27:40)

• Anomalous Childhood: Charlie and his identical twin, Jack, experienced strange phenomena as kids—moving lights, apparitions, and eerie voices, even shared injuries and pain.
  • “We’d wake up in the night and there’d be something pulling the covers off our beds, balls of light floating, shadows, hearing our names called in deep voices…” – Charlie (13:25)
  • Their mother reported seeing a hooded being (14:14), but “never mentioned it to us.”
• RH Negative Blood & Twin Study Interest: Charlie and Jack have Rh-negative blood—a detail Jesse notes is common among “experiencers.”
  • “That’s fascinating because that’s a commonality among experiencers.” – Jesse (15:12)
  • As children, men approached their family wanting to take the twins for study, possibly via the “Rhine Institute” or similar (17:40).
• UFO Sighting in ‘73: Charlie recounts seeing a weird, shape-shifting set of lights in rural Pennsylvania, years before Allagash—a precursor event (22:29).

3. The 1976 Allagash Encounter (32:19–54:38)

Initial Sighting (33:05–36:04)

• Sphere of Light Appears: On Chamberlain Lake, the group sees a sphere of light "moving like a balloon,” imploding in on itself as if “like a lens closing” when viewed through binoculars.
  • “Here’s this sphere of light, moving…like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind us.” – Charlie (01:33)

The Main Event (41:18–54:58)

• Fishing at Night, UFO Interaction: Late at night on Eagle Lake, the group is in one canoe, and a huge, silent sphere approaches.
  • “A sphere of light…as big as a two-story house, totally silent, coming straight toward us.” – Jim (42:40)
• Flashing SOS: Charlie flashes an SOS, and the object responds immediately, stopping and emitting a neon blue beam.
  • “All I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming, ‘paddle, Charlie, paddle!’” – Charlie (43:04)
• Missing Time: The group experiences time loss—what feels like moments is actually hours, as indicated by the fully burned-out campfire.
  • “That was a three-hour period of time that is missing time that everybody talks about.” – Jim (53:01)

Immediate Aftermath

• Physical & Mental Sensations: Extreme exhaustion, bewilderment, and fragmented memories.
• Reporting to Rangers: The next day, they attempt to report what happened. The ranger dismisses them as “smoking something.”
  • “We told him, and he was like...I don't know what you guys were smoking last night. If I were you, I'd stop.” – Charlie (56:04)

4. Piecing It Together: Hypnotic Regression & The Missing Memories (70:00–100:21)

Psychological Fallout & Investigation (70:00–78:34)

• Recurring Nightmares: Years later, Jim and Jack begin having recurring nightmares with scenes of clinical procedures involving “humanoids.”
• Investigation by Ray Fowler: After a sleep study and a reaction to Whitley Strieber’s Communion, Jim is referred to Ray Fowler via Dr. Jonathan Silverman (Harvard Med). Fowler quickly notes the significance of the identical twins.
  • “He said, oh...you have an identical twin?...Okay, I want you to start all over again.” – Charlie (77:37)

Regression Details

• Abduction & Examination: Under regression, all four recall being aboard the craft, subjected to clinical exams by non-human entities with large eyes and spindly bodies, telepathic communication, and various procedures—including reproductive sample extraction.
  • “A bulbous head with large eyes, no nose, slit area in the chin…Four-digit hands, spindly, under five feet.” – Jim (84:37, 87:18)
  • “Then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in...Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a needle coming out that they…inserted into his penis.” – Charlie (94:17–95:37)
• Physical Effects: Jim had bald patches on his shins; Jack developed unexplained tumors in identical locations—eventually removed at a teaching hospital, with pathology suggesting unknown origin (98:53–99:45).
• Alien “Emotion”: The beings are described as “clinical,” goal-directed, with no malice or emotional rapport—analogous to how scientists tag animals.
  • “We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall.” – Jim (101:20)

5. Post-Event Lives & Broader Implications (115:31–143:46)

Physical & Psychological Aftermath

• Enduring Physical Reminders: Scars, tumors, hair not growing as before, and persistent psychological impacts.
• Shifting Life Paths: All group members altered their art and professional trajectories post-event, developing obsessions with geometry, grids, and ancient architecture.
  • “Immediately after coming back from the Allagash…Jack just became obsessed with…weird mathematical stuff. He was building models of icosahedrons, dodecahedrons out of straws…” – Charlie (137:33)
  • “I became obsessed with pyramids and ancient sites. I believe these structures are a form of macrochip technology.” – Charlie (140:34–141:19)

Contact with Significant Figures

• Gordon Cooper: The Mercury astronaut told the group a firsthand UFO landing story, only to have the footage confiscated by military authorities (64:16–66:17).
• John Mack: The legendary Harvard psychiatrist supported their case, led support groups, and maintained a stance that “these are not the delusions of the mentally ill.”
• John Norseen: Government scientist, present at Allagash at the time, recounted intersecting their report, worked with military tracking tech—later died under mysterious circumstances (“John not heard nor seen”) (121:25–131:32).

Broader Theories & Reflection

• Nature of the Phenomena: Speculation includes the aliens being evolved future humans, or interdimensional entities, with physical craft possibly serving as “memes.”
  • “Some believe they're actually us from the future…But that's somehow too simple. Like there's something else going on too.” – Jesse (114:20)
• Government Interaction and Skepticism: The group dismisses the idea that military experimentation or MK Ultra-style programs caused their abduction, but entertain the notion that human activity (e.g., military tracking experiments) attracts the phenomenon.
  • “If they wanted to do something…we couldn't do diddly. They would have done it years ago.” – Jim (124:49–125:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the moment of abduction:
“I’m struggling to get up, and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes, and they began a clinical examination of me.”
– Jim Weiner (1:57)

Describing the sphere:
“It was as big as a two-story house. Silent. And it had this weird kind of life to it…like it was roiling.”
– Charlie Foltz (42:40)

On telepathic communication:
“When I looked into these eyes, it was like two magnets grabbing one another instantly…instantaneous comprehension of their intention.”
– Jim Weiner (86:24–87:04)

On changes in life and art:
“Just days after this event…all of a sudden this thing came into my head, fully developed…really unique creations with clay, total opposite of production pottery.”
– Charlie Foltz (139:02–140:07)

On government and military secrecy:
“We had a commissioned officer…he said, ‘If I were you guys, I wouldn’t say anything…nobody’s going to believe you. Topic is closed.’”
– Jim Weiner (134:30)

Concluding reflection:
“We were like the chimps, and they were like Jane Goodall…very clinical, about their business…”
– Jim Weiner (101:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Setting the scene & backgrounds: 03:05–12:28
• Early anomalous experiences: 12:45–27:40
• First sighting on the trip: 32:19–36:04
• Main abduction event: 41:18–54:58
• Missing time, reporting to rangers: 54:58–56:10
• Post-event discussion, confusion: 56:32–60:02
• Hypnotic regression and recovered abduction memories: 70:00–100:26
• Physical aftermath and path lab findings: 98:54–99:45
• Impact on art and life: 136:18–143:47
• Wider reflection on the phenomenon: 115:31–132:08

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Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, self-aware, sometimes irreverent, and always rooted in the distinctive voices of its participants. Jim and Charlie, both grounded and at times darkly humorous, alternate between awe, anxiety, curiosity, and the resigned frustration of being “experiencers” in a skeptical world.

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Closing Thoughts

The Allagash abduction remains one of America’s most thoroughly investigated UFO encounters. This episode offers direct testimony, personal insight, context on anomalous experiences, discussion of the investigative process, and broader speculation about the nature of the phenomena—underscored by the authenticity and idiosyncrasies of its principal witnesses.

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Further Reading/Listening:

• Ray Fowler, The Allagash Abductions
• John Mack, Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens
• Watch for future FOIA releases on military sightings, per Jesse’s and the guest’s encouragement.

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(end of summary)

Transcript

[Jim Weiner]

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[Jesse]

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[Jim Weiner]

The Allagash Lake. We're up there for the experience, for the pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness.

[Jesse]

What happens when you get back to camp?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, we looked on the other side of the lake, and here's this sphere of light, and it's moving like a balloon, moving very, very slowly. What the hell is that over there?

[Charlie Foltz]

When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it.

[Jesse]

How so?

[Charlie Foltz]

So I looked at it through binoculars. And then as soon as I got him in focus, the light went like that.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Charlie Foltz]

Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not gonna make it back. Keep going. Don't look back.

[Jim Weiner]

And then I'm struggling to get up, and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes, and they began a clinical examination of me.

[Jesse]

So you were laying horizontally. What did the table feel like?

[Jim Weiner]

Very sterile. An emergency room setting in a way.

[Jesse]

What did the beings look like?

[Jim Weiner]

A bulbous head with large eyes. No nose like us. Slit area in the chin.

[Jesse]

Are you freaking out?

[Jim Weiner]

Freaking out. I'm beyond freaked out.

[Jesse]

Do you know if you have RH negative blood?

[Charlie Foltz]

I do.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Charlie Foltz]

And then they came for me. I was terrified. He kind of like reached up in the air with his long, thin, articulated arms, and he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey puck. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins. And then I couldn't move my legs.

[Jesse]

Oh, my God.

[Jim Weiner]

On his legs. For several years, he hair didn't grow there. It was like bald patch on its Legs, really. And. And his identical twin brother Jack, had tumors growing in the exact spots. Didn't even get a damn T shirt.

[Jesse]

I mean, no souvenirs.

[Jim Weiner]

Ignition sequence 5. How is this possible?

[Charlie Foltz]

Nothing too unusual about that.

[Jesse]

Their existence cannot longer be den. Jim Weiner, Charlie Foltz, thank you both so much for being here. I have followed your story for many years, and so it's an honor to be in person with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind blowing in 1976 in Allagash, in Maine.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. On the Allagash water system. Yeah.

[Jesse]

And it was you two. And it was his identical twin brother.

[Charlie Foltz]

Identical twin brother Jack.

[Jim Weiner]

And another guy.

[Jesse]

And another guy. Another friend. And. Okay, so let's set the scene. What is going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid-20s?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, I was a college student at the time, going to college on the GI Bill. And my goal at that time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children. So I was a dual major. I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the three months where I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to supplement my income.

[Jesse]

Well,

[Jim Weiner]

that was where I was with my education. Jack had. And Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art, I think that year, the year before Jack did.

[Charlie Foltz]

I never. I didn't go to. I wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that time, I was at the program in artisanry, which was a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute.

[Jesse]

And so you guys are both artists.

[Jim Weiner]

What are you? All of us were artists. All four of us. All four.

[Jesse]

And what are you like, personality wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy or are you sort of humble and quiet?

[Jim Weiner]

We're average mid-20s, you know, males, you know, we were enjoying the experience of the wilderness. We had started planning the trip the previous year, acquiring gear, just slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need, plus the meals, ready to eat type of pack, prepackaged food that we brought along with us as well.

[Jesse]

And you guys were pretty good outdoorsmen, right? You had some skills when it came to kind of surviving outdoors on your own?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, kind of.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, grew up fishing out in the country, you know, doing fishing, camping, that sort of thing.

[Jesse]

Where did you live at the time? Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts?

[Jim Weiner]

No, we were living in Boston. Yeah, I was going to college. I was living in Brookline actually, at that time. And the twins were my next door neighbors. Literally just on the other side of the driveway was their house.

[Jesse]

So you guys have known each other for a very long time?

[Charlie Foltz]

Over 50?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, over a half century.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. I mean, at that time I was studying ceramics at the program in artisanry. I was working with two amazing potters. One's name was Bill Sachs, who was a potter in western Massachusetts out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named Rich, what was Rich's. Richard Hirsch, who was a master raku potter.

[Jesse]

And are you guys best friends?

[Charlie Foltz]

Oh, yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

What, him and me?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

This guy sounds like a one way situation. Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

Evil brother.

[Jesse]

Sorry, Jim, you got the short end of the stick here.

[Charlie Foltz]

It's okay.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So you guys are clearly. There's a lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

What equipment we need, what clothing, being prepared for the weather. Because it was at the end of summer. And as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change. And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot and dry. It was one of the hottest August at the end of the year that they had had. So we had gear for a. The next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had. We, as I said, had climbed Mount Katahdin two days prior to beginning our canoe trip. And when we were climbing up the mountain, I had to take my blue jeans, I had to take a knife and make them into shorts because we were so soaked with sweat from climbing the mountain that our clothing or mine was like grabbing me and restricting my movements.

[Jesse]

Hiking in jeans, never a good idea.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, that's true. You can make them shorts though.

[Jesse]

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got innovative. So I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of inextricably linked with it, you can't kind of separate. It is just the landscape of Allagash itself.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, absolutely. It's beautif up there.

[Jesse]

Describe it.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, originally, the Allagash water system, which is now a national park system, was originally part of the logging industry. Prior to logging trucks going out into the forest. You sent teams out in the forest, they would cut the trees, put them on the lake, float them, and that was. They were moved down the Allagash river all the way to like Fort Kentucky and Allagash, the village of Allagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence, is it there or St. Francis.

[Charlie Foltz]

St. Francis.

[Jim Weiner]

St. Francis, yeah. That separates Canada from the U.S. and they would run the logs down there. We ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip, we met an old logger, his name was Harry Smith. Really interesting character. Told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you had to do to unjam them. And that was incredibly dangerous because you had to get out there and pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. So the Allagash system still has part of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest, load up with lumber or logs and take them out that way as well. And now it is all just a recreational environment.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, it looks very primitive. I mean, you don't. At least when we, the places we were at, you didn't see cut, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like that.

[Jim Weiner]

There's no houses, wilderness.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, gray herons are flying over all the time. You see moose, deer.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, bears, all kinds of wild kinds of stuff.

[Charlie Foltz]

You have to make sure you keep your foodstuffs off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. The rangers come every day to collect your trash, so that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do before you even go there is you have to. They only have designated campsites. And so you have to tell the rangers what your itinerary is, what your itinerary is like. So in case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to

[Jim Weiner]

start looking for, looking for you.

[Charlie Foltz]

So. And they come and check you the minute you land on the lakes. When we flew in, we flew in on a bush plane. Within minutes, two rangers came and they come and they check your gear. They go through your gear to make sure you're not carrying any kind of contraband because the Allagash runs into Canada. And they check to make sure that you have enough food, food, first aid and camping things to survive up in the wilderness. Because we were there for what, two weeks?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, 17 days. A week.

[Charlie Foltz]

17 days. So, you know, they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway.

[Jim Weiner]

And if you're not out at the end of like the 17 or 18 days, then they start trying to find you.

[Jesse]

Had either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life? Had you?

[Charlie Foltz]

Oh, yeah. You had described Jack and I, when we were kids growing. We grew up in the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. We used to have these things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room. And we'd wake up in the night and there'd be something pulling the covers off our beds. Or we'd see, like, figures moving around in the room. They. We saw balls of light. Balls of light floating through the house on occasion.

[Jesse]

Did you ever communicate with any.

[Charlie Foltz]

Oh, yeah, we did with our parents. And they used to say, oh, you're having nightmares.

[Jesse]

Did you communicate with any of the beings or the.

[Charlie Foltz]

No. No, we went straight to the bottom of the bed.

[Jesse]

Scared.

[Charlie Foltz]

Scared shitless.

[Jim Weiner]

And your parents thought it was a ghost, didn't you? Harry the ghost?

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, we used to call him Harry the Ghost. They used to call our names sometimes. Like, I'd be in. In the room doing something, and I'd hear this Jim, A real deep voice of. Jim. Jim. And I thought it was. I always thought it was my father.

[Jesse]

Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family?

[Charlie Foltz]

No, my father built the house himself.

[Jesse]

Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to this?

[Charlie Foltz]

But my parents saw a bean in their bedroom one night.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Charlie Foltz]

A hooded bean in their bedroom. Which I never knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her.

[Jim Weiner]

Whoa.

[Charlie Foltz]

And then she reported it to Ray.

[Jesse]

So she wasn't open about it with you. She was open about it to Ray Fowler.

[Charlie Foltz]

She was open about it to Ray.

[Jesse]

We'll get to. But he's a.

[Charlie Foltz]

Never mentioned it to us.

[Jim Weiner]

Wild.

[Charlie Foltz]

So, you know, we used to have, like to be like knocking on the walls at night when we try to sleep. And if you go into our basement, we had a. My father had a little pool table in the basement. So family members. He had a large family. Brothers and sisters. They would come to the house every other weekend or so. Back in those days, families like, that's just what they did.

[Jesse]

Super random question, but do you know if you have Rh negative blood?

[Charlie Foltz]

I do.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

My brother.

[Jesse]

And you did too. And your dad.

[Jim Weiner]

No, no, my dad.

[Jesse]

Not you. Your dad did. But you did. You did.

[Charlie Foltz]

Jack and I both have Rh negative.

[Jesse]

That's fascinating because that's a commonality among experiencers. This missing protein that seems to. For whatever reason.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, when we were. When we were like six years old, we both broke our arms, like, within a day of one another. Like when you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one.

[Jesse]

It's like some entanglement yeah, it's like definitely entanglement.

[Charlie Foltz]

There's anyway we had both broken our

[Jim Weiner]

wrists and opposite arms.

[Jesse]

Opposite arms, same fracture location in those days, literally entanglement.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. In those days, doctors came to your home. Yeah, we had a family doctor that you know would come to your home if you called them. And so I was in just unbelievable pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they called the doctor and the doctor came to the house and he said, well, I'm just going to knock them out because if you can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out. So he gave me a shot of something to knock me out. And a minute later, Jack goes out cold.

[Jesse]

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[Charlie Foltz]

Jack Goes Out Cold. Whoa. I'm sitting there and the doctor, they actually wrote it up. He wrote up a report and they wrote it up in one of the local newspapers. And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house and they wanted to talk to my father and mother and they claimed that they were from some institute. Institute somewhere that was studying twins and they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us.

[Jesse]

What institute?

[Charlie Foltz]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

Which was it called? The. The Round Table Institute.

[Charlie Foltz]

I don't. I don't remember the name of it.

[Jesse]

Do you remember where it was?

[Charlie Foltz]

It may have been Duke.

[Jesse]

Duke. The Ryan Institute.

[Charlie Foltz]

It may have been the Ryan, but I'm not. Don't quote me. But anyway, what year was this? This was so late 50s.

[Jesse]

Yeah, well, the Ryan Institute ended in 1950s.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, late 50s. Anyway, my father could have been freaked out.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And literally threw them both out of the house and said, if you ever come here again or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will.

[Jesse]

What's fascinating, because that time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to MK Ultra, but also they were interested in UFO stuff, too. There's a guy named Andrei Puharich. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was an early kind of architect of MK Ultra. He was a Northwestern scientist, and I think he was a medical student there, but just got very interested in consciousness. And he had a place in Ossining in upstate New York, and he recruited what he called the space kids. And it was like a camp for high psi, you know, high psychic ability children. And they would often, you know, channel these beings they would call the nine, these sort of, you know, alien entities.

[Charlie Foltz]

The first set of what really were the space kids were younger. Some of them were 7 years old, up to 12 or in teens.

[Jim Weiner]

Interesting.

[Jesse]

So I wonder if you were, you

[Charlie Foltz]

know, maybe they were tracking us. Did that eventually evolve into Montauk?

[Jesse]

So Montauk, I believe was. Yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been. Yeah. 50s, I believe. There was like, this machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book, but Preston something.

[Charlie Foltz]

Could be. I had the book at one time, and I've given it away already.

[Jesse]

Yeah, but no, but that's sort of. So the. I mean, that whole. The Montauk experiments, which we now think are probably real inspired. You know, Stranger Things and Stranger Things is, you know, hit Netflix show, which is around the DOE and national labs basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with them. And 11, this character in Stranger Things, which is like the biggest show in the world right now.

[Charlie Foltz]

Right.

[Jesse]

Is based on this. So I do think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So maybe they were trying to.

[Charlie Foltz]

They may have had. They may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people at all. No one goes to Hanks for his spreadsheets, they go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks co pilot in my Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs.

[Jesse]

Help him see if he can afford it.

[Charlie Foltz]

Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now Hanks has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets.

[Jesse]

Learn [e-mail] work. Yeah, I don't blame him.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, so that happened when we were kids. And then in 1973, in the spring of 1973, I was attending Mansfield state college in upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York state teachers college. And I was. I was an undergraduate there. And they were involved in this project with beavers because they were having problems with. Every time a big storm would come through, they'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river. I forget the name of it, but it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside all around it. It's really up in an area, Pennsylvania, that's really wild. In fact, they filmed the deer hunter movie. Is that the name of it? Deer hunter? Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can walk for 75 miles in any direction up there, and you don't see a single house. It's really, you know, primitive.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Charlie Foltz]

Anyway, so I was. I was gotten. They got me and two other friends of mine up there involved with this, where they drop. They parachute. These beavers.

[Jesse]

They parachuted in beavers?

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water table.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Charlie Foltz]

Which I thought was a great idea because how else do you get into the water table when there's nothing there except trees and forest? And so what we had to do, myself and my two friends was. And they had other students doing this was we had to go out into, like, all these old logging roads and whatever and find beavers. And, you know, Marco, you know, put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine, and we're driving around a little VW Bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. We never. I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back, and it had just become nighttime, and we were driving through a cow, some pasture. It was this huge pasture with two ruts for Tractor ruts in it. And we were driving, and it was dark. So it was. But up there in that part of Pennsylvania, it's what they call the night sky. Places where, like, you can go out and look.

[Jim Weiner]

Clear skies.

[Charlie Foltz]

Clear skies. Or, you know, it's like we're virgin black. Virgin black. There's no light pollution. And so we were driving across. We were lost. And we were driving across this pasture, this huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture, there was a tree line. And so we were going towards this tree line. And then I noticed. I looked up above the trees and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the Little Dipper, except they were moving. And they were moving in a really strange way. It was like. Instead of, like, just going in a constant plane pace or plane, they were tumbling like a slinky. They would. This whole. They were maintaining the. The dipper shape. There was probably six or eight of these lights. They look like, you know, bright, bright stars, but they were tumbling end over end. And it was coming, like, right down towards where we were. And then we were like. I was like, what the heck is that? So I stopped the car. I said, we got to get out and look at this thing. So the three of us got out of the car and we're. We're watching this thing, and it's just walking out of the sky, like, right before us. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this car comes opposite us on this tractor rut. So we're like, oh, Jesus. So the car gets around us, and then at one point, it was like on a hill. And when the car lights went up, it hit these lights up in the sky. And then they stopped coming down towards us, and they started going parallel to us. And while they were, they kept maintaining this tumbling thing, except then they were changing shape. Like, they were like. They would go in. At one point, they were like a V shape. And then another point, it was more like an amoeba type shape, but it just kept tumbling end over end the whole time. So I said, let's signal it, because it was only a thousand, maybe two thousand, wasn't that far up in the sky. And so I had a flashlight in my glove compartment, and I took the flashlight out and I blinked a flashlight. And all of a sudden, one of these starlight lights went off, like a big amber flash bulb. And it's like turned into, like a tube of light, almost like a blob of toothpaste kind of light came out of it. And then it did a Couple more tumbles, and then it just. This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. It was going like this, tumbling, and then all of a sudden it was. It just reversed. It didn't stop. And wait, you know, one blink of an eye, it just stopped and then revers. It just reversed itself. And then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared. That was in 1973.

[Jesse]

Fascinating.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Wow. So that was a year before, or that was three years before this Allagash event. So you had had, like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences. Multiple.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, except I. We never. We never subscribed them to UFOs. UFOs. I mean, you grew up in. You know, I was. Grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania.

[Jesse]

Just like ghosts or. Yeah, ghosts or, you know, lights in the sky.

[Charlie Foltz]

Lights in the sky. You know, it could have been, you know, helicopters. Yeah, we knew, you know, I mean, I didn't know what it was. And so we. Nobody talked about UFOs and those. You know, I grew up in a family that was conservative, very conservative. So, like, we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened. And then my holy ghost. Yeah, that's. That's what we don't worry about. It's only Harry the ghost. Yeah.

[Jesse]

So he would casually. You dismiss it, but he would casually. He had a name for this ghost. Yeah, because that's how much it would

[Charlie Foltz]

appear we called him Harry.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay, so you guys, let's cut back to 76. You guys are at Allagash.

[Charlie Foltz]

You.

[Jesse]

This view, sort of beautiful landscape. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you. You know, camping out there, you get there. At what point do you start canoeing?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, right after we climbed Katahdin, which was the first three days we were in northern Maine. Went down to Millinocket and got some supplies, then climbed Katahdin, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Millinocket, and we drove north and east of Baxter State park to a outfitter at Shin Pond. And at Shin Pond, a friend of ours, in fact, the guy that came down this last Saturday, we were using one of his canoes. A friend of ours named Charlie had lent us a Grumman aluminum canoe for our trip and had taken it to Shen Pond. And this guy had had it strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and the canoe. That's all you could put in that little plane. Besides him, I had a Volkswagen Beetle that had a far more complex instrument panel than this airplane had. I mean, it was as simple as simple could be. He got a choke, he got an oil pressure gauge, and he got a gas gauge, and that was it.

[Charlie Foltz]

We had two canoes, the one that our friend loaned us, and then we

[Jim Weiner]

brought another rented one. Yeah.

[Jesse]

Describe your first anomalous sighting on the canoe.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lake system. We were on Chamberlain Lake, and that was a lake that runs north, south. And we were going north, and we were trying to get up to the Allagash river or the Allagash Stream, which flows in from Allagash Lake. And that is totally primitive up there area. The only way you can get up there is by polling up the river. And we didn't know how to pole, but we attempted paddling and paddling, but didn't do us any good. However, to get back to the first sighting, we had passed two teenagers on our way north, and they were fooling around on a little island. And we got up to this site called Mud Pond, and we didn't want to camp with other people. There were people across from us in a sheltered area from the wind. And we had decided to take this one spot. But when we got up there, the wind was, like, just coming down on us like crazy. And we're like, we don't want to be dealing with this all night long. Trying to put Arlene to shelter together, because all we had was a big tarp that we used as a tent, you know, because you can use tarps for multiple purposes. And we were using it for shelter as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well, at any rate, the weather forced us across the lake where this other group of campers were. And they had asked had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier. And we told them where we had seen them. And so they were getting worried because, you know, two teenagers, member of their group, and it.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, and it had gotten dark by this time. So out there, it's so black at

[Jim Weiner]

night, you can't really see.

[Charlie Foltz]

You can't see your hand this far in front of your face.

[Jim Weiner]

So we were out with them as well, looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water, seeing if we could find them. And they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned. And a member of this other group said, what the hell is that over there? And we looked on the other side of the lake, and here's this sphere of light, and it's Moving like a balloon. Moving very, very slowly. But it's like moving into this wind. So I'm trying to figure out.

[Charlie Foltz]

Just above the treetops.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, I was trying to figure out, like, what the hell is that? But then we spotted these kids and so. Okay. And we looked back at this light, and it wasn't there.

[Charlie Foltz]

So I looked at it through binoculars because it had. When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it.

[Jesse]

How so?

[Charlie Foltz]

It just didn't look right to me. It wasn't like a pure white. It was more like a yellowish white. And it. It. There's just something about it that didn't seem right to me. So I looked at it through binoculars and. And then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went like that. Like a. Like a. A lens closing in on itself. And then it just vanished. And I thought, well, that's. That's kind of weird. But I didn't think anything more about it because we were. We had to set up camp. So, you know, it was just this weird light. But I had never seen a light do that before, like, just implode in on itself.

[Jim Weiner]

Wait 48 hours, you'll see it again.

[Charlie Foltz]

And what was odd, which we. We didn't know at the time, but it was like the direction that it was in line to us was over

[Jim Weiner]

Eagle Lake, the area that we were camping at two days later.

[Jesse]

So it was almost like it was where he was going.

[Jim Weiner]

I was, like, patrolling that area or something.

[Jesse]

The area that's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fravor from his 2004 Nimitz incident, and he says, you know, we were, you know, dispatched to go check out this Tic Tac object. And then the Tic Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or some trajectory or.

[Charlie Foltz]

It had been there for a while because there was a. There was a witness logger who had witnessed this same craft up in that same area that they were logging.

[Jesse]

Fascinating. Okay, so do you guys kind of, you know, note that this is anomalous, but you don't. You try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, well, I mean, we're not there to see a light disappear in the night sky. I mean, we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for the just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness.

[Jesse]

What happens when you get back to camp?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, well, that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we just Turned in, got up the next morning and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Allagash Lake.

[Jesse]

Do you guys even talk about the first sighting?

[Jim Weiner]

Not really. At all. No.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Jim Weiner]

No, I mean, it was. Was like I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing, you know?

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, right?

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. I said, well, this is, this is a strange light. And when it kind of winked out, I thought, well, that's kind of weird, but I mean, maybe, maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something. And that's just the way it went.

[Jesse]

Right. Okay.

[Jim Weiner]

So then the next day after that, we had canoed up, tried to get to Allagash Lake, but found it impossible. We had spent like eight hours trying to go upstream until we got to a point where we said, well, we're not even at the halfway mark. We turned around and it took us about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake portage area. So it was a 3/4 of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. So how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles, ran perpendicular to the canoe, and then the four of us would just pick up the ends with the canoe in between us and then walk the canoe over to the other lake, went back and retrieved a second canoe, and then got out on the water. And we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal.

[Charlie Foltz]

It was kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake, towards the southern end of it.

[Jim Weiner]

But there was a canoe about, I don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us. And that is where he beelined straight too. So we're like, well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary, which was Smith Brook campsite. We set up our camp for the night, and then we decided, hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement, have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we built a fire that we knew would burn for close to three hours and went out on the lake. And we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water. And it took us maybe about 25, 30 minutes to work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at, which was maybe about 500 yards from our campsite.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. We were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe, the other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. So all we had was paddles and fishing poles. Fishing poles.

[Jim Weiner]

And that was it, you know, And a flashlight.

[Charlie Foltz]

Flashlight.

[Jim Weiner]

So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and, you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, what the F is that?

[Jesse]

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[Jim Weiner]

What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe and I see this aspirin tablet sized white circle. And I'm thinking, that is the fricking moon, you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving and it was moving faster than moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here and it's hundreds, hundreds of yards away from us. And so we just sat there bewildered, looking at this thing. And then it kind of like makes a left turn and then it starts coming straight toward us.

[Charlie Foltz]

Totally silent.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. And so we're watching it and, and watching it, and then we Notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated. And this thing's only about 15ft above the tops of the trees, just coming straight toward us. And when it was about less than 100 yards away from us, directly across, I thought, I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned the light on, and then I. Three short, three long, three short. And then this thing stopped. I mean, it just. No sound whatsoever. Just stopped moving. And all of a sudden this big cone of light blue light, like a neon blue. But it looked like a giant glass straw. It looked like it was open, a void in the center of it or something. And this light starts from the bottom of the sphere coming out across a lake toward the canoe. And that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time.

[Charlie Foltz]

This thing was big. It was as big as a two story house.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like huge.

[Charlie Foltz]

Wow.

[Jesse]

And how far away? It was like under 100 yards for

[Jim Weiner]

me when I flashed a flashlight. But when I dropped the flashlight, it was about 75 yards from us enclosing.

[Jesse]

Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

Immediately.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And it came closer.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. And all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming, paddle, Charlie, paddle. And as I said, if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would have been doing that.

[Jesse]

What emotions are going through you guys at this point?

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, I was terrified.

[Jim Weiner]

Self survival.

[Charlie Foltz]

Self survival. It was like weird. I do not want to deal with this out here.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. I don't know what this is. But I know as much as I really want to know at the moment,

[Charlie Foltz]

because it was, you know, it was big. It was huge.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And you're like, oh, that's not a helicopter. Because it was absolutely silent.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. It wasn't disturbing the trees or the water.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, you can hear a quarter of a mile away.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And this thing didn't make any noise at all. And it had this weird kind of life to it. Like it was roiling.

[Jim Weiner]

The surface of the lighting of this

[Charlie Foltz]

thing was like roiling. It was alive.

[Jesse]

It was like it was some sort of plasma. Like a plasma pressure cooker.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Something going on inside.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yep.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, you know what it. One of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon, right? Sure. This thing had A halo around it as well. As it approached us, you could see the definition of this halo. And the. The sphere itself was, you know, in constant motion.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I remembered. You know, you're like, paddle. Well, the other guy with us, he was. He was just like catatonic. He just sat in the.

[Jim Weiner]

With the paddle across his legs, across

[Charlie Foltz]

his legs and just stared out. And we're like, paddle, paddle, paddle.

[Jim Weiner]

And he's like, sort of help us a little here.

[Jesse]

So, Charlie, what's his name, by the way? This other guy who's catching? Chuck.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, and it's the reason I go by Charlie so there's no confusion.

[Charlie Foltz]

And so we're like, chuck, paddle. And he just did. Sat there staring out into nothing.

[Jim Weiner]

And so it seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that Jack and Jim and I were standing on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake.

[Jesse]

Didn't Chuck, also, prior to this feel like you guys were being watched? He had something.

[Jim Weiner]

That's what he said. Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. I mean, the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore at the camp was looking back to see where this thing was. And I thought, well, it's still like, you know, 70 yards away, except it was like, instead of being back here, it was like there it was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not going to make it back. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at the. Our canoe campsite, went up on the shore of the campsite.

[Jesse]

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[Jim Weiner]

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[Jesse]

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[Jim Weiner]

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[Charlie Foltz]

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[Jim Weiner]

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[Jesse]

Little sort of missing time? Well, yeah, but I mean, in your memory, at least.

[Jim Weiner]

To where? Well, I mean, but the thing about it is, is in total context, we weren't aware of anything like this at the time. At the time.

[Jesse]

But. But now recalling it, you remember this bright plasma, like, object 75 yards away.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, no, no. We remembered the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night.

[Jesse]

And then. And then you remember that, and then it just sort of flashes directly to like you're going up onto shore to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory?

[Jim Weiner]

No, no. As a matter of fact, I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire. And that was all that I was. That was my goal. My objective was to reach that site because that was the only indicator of where a campsite was. Without that campfire, the shoreline is identical. And at night it's dark.

[Jesse]

When you're going onto shore and the campfire is in sight. Do you guys feel differently physically than before? You blacked out a little bit.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, this was the kicker. When we got to shore, the three of us were standing on this in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another sos but this time all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake, it ascended up and away at a 45 degree angle.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I remembered when we got onto the shore, turning around to see where it was. And I remember it hovering right over the water. And this cone of light was coming down on. Straight down under it on the water

[Jesse]

really, like it was. There was a beam, like it was

[Jim Weiner]

sitting on a light.

[Charlie Foltz]

And it was close. I remember thinking if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock.

[Jim Weiner]

And it was only about 40ft above the surface of the water. And the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass.

[Charlie Foltz]

Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remember looking.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, that was when it went up in the sky.

[Charlie Foltz]

And then it just went. And then it.

[Jesse]

And. And when you could see it sort of close up, could you make out how big it was? And the. And the shape, it was circular.

[Charlie Foltz]

It was still spherical. It was still.

[Jim Weiner]

And it was still like maybe two and a half story house.

[Jesse]

Give a sense of the diameter.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

Triple decker. Yeah, easy.

[Jesse]

And was it always kind of white light or did it color? That's how I remember.

[Charlie Foltz]

Kind of a whitish yellow.

[Jim Weiner]

The best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb, look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off, and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw, as I can think of, for example.

[Jesse]

Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore, and you flash the SOS again, and the thing kind of, you know,

[Jim Weiner]

zooms off, goes across the lake, and begins to ascend up and away from us.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. When it went, it flew. Weird. I remember it reminded me of, like, when you have a Frisbee and you're tossing a Frisbee back and forth, and sometimes the Frisbee will go at a certain. And then skips up and then keeps going, and then it skips up again. That's how this thing. It was like it was going up a stairway.

[Jesse]

What happens when you get back to camp?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, this is while we're in camp, watching this thing going up.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Jim Weiner]

For some reason, I felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed. So I took the flashlight, which I was still holding in my hand, once I had signaled it the second time. And I looked at the sweep hand on my watch, noting to where the sweep hand was or the second hand. Then I looked back up at this thing, and then it shot off into the night sky. So I didn't observe it skipping. I just meant that probably happened when I was looking at my wristwatch. But when that thing took off within eight seconds of the time, I spotted the sweep end till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in a night sky. Eight seconds had elapsed, and I turned and I looked at the campfire. The campfire had flames about one inch high. The campfire had completely burned out. But I didn't say, oh, my God, what happened to the fire? I mean, because fires burn out. You expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted. So I asked everybody, should I throw some wood on the fire and build it up? And they're like, fuck the fire, man. I'm exhausted. I'm going. And I all of a sudden just felt exhausted. So it was like that adrenaline that put you into the afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline safety. That adrenaline is now dissipated, and exhaustion hits you. That's the way it felt like.

[Jesse]

But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off, that you

[Jim Weiner]

felt like sort of premonition, but I didn't know why at that time. It took us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that.

[Jesse]

And then the fire is significant, too, right?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, yeah, extremely.

[Jesse]

So, so. So explain that.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we Encountered this thing. So it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore, but it seemed like only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore, the fire was extinguished. So that was a three hour period of time that is that missing time that everybody talks about.

[Jesse]

And the fire initially was set. You know, it was an intense fire.

[Jim Weiner]

It was blazing. It acted like a lighthouse. I mean, you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night. Because as he had said before, you know, you can feel the heat from your hand, but you can't see your hand.

[Jesse]

So this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances.

[Jim Weiner]

Correct.

[Jesse]

It was going to be big. Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

But not so big that it would start a force. Well, I mean, if it would have been windy, that would have been a different thing. But it wasn't windy at all that night.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, it's called a long burning fire or sometimes an upside down fire. You build a to last to burn a long time rather than quickly.

[Jesse]

And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there, or, you know, all but out shows you that maybe there was some missing time involved.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, we didn't want. Because fires burn out.

[Jesse]

This is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. In fact, we hadn't even, you know, made that connection. It was Ray Fowler that made the connection. He said, this is missing time where you knew you were paddling toward a fire, a fire that you were looking at, but yet when you got there, the fire was out.

[Jesse]

That's also a common trope with alien abductions. You have, you know, Travis Walton coming back with a fully grown beard.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, actually, it was one year before you guys.

[Charlie Foltz]

Right.

[Jesse]

It was 75.

[Charlie Foltz]

75.

[Jim Weiner]

Nine months. Nine months before.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. And I had never heard of Travis at that time.

[Charlie Foltz]

About Travis.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

We didn't know about anybody back then.

[Jim Weiner]

We didn't know about any of this. We were novices. It was all new.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

Which is one of the reasons we were so intent, as I said to James, to share this knowledge with the world. I mean, you know, this. Hey, something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt and I can't do nothing about it. I want people to know, you know, did you.

[Jesse]

Did you guys report it to.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

When the ranger came to collect our trash, we said, hey, you know, did anybody see anything weird last night? And he's like, What. What do you mean? They have that main accent, you know. So we told him what we saw, and he was like.

[Jim Weiner]

He kind of gave us this weird look.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, well, I don't know what you guys were smoking last night.

[Jim Weiner]

No, he didn't see it.

[Charlie Foltz]

If I were you, I'd stop, you know? And we were like, no, this is. This is something that we really saw. This thing was like, how could you. How could somebody else not see it? And in fact, we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system, we said, hey, did you see anything weird, you know, last night or a couple of nights ago? They'd say, now we were all in bed by, you know.

[Jesse]

And you guys had six more days, right? On the hike? On the.

[Jim Weiner]

No, no, we had like about two more weeks.

[Jesse]

Oh, you had. You guys had two more weeks on this trip?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So. So how. How much does this change the dynamic between you guys? Are you guys talking about this a lot?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, that night, we didn't talk about one word. We just more or less all drifted off. Forget about the fire, everybody said, so we all drifted off, climbed in our sleeping bags and closed our eyes. And then the next morning, as we're breaking camp and eating, the only thing we could talk about was this thing. What the hell was

[Jesse]

happened to me in the wood? I was hiking solo New year. No phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees. A ufo. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an Android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just $79. Six fits sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order, plus free shipping at ThePerfectGene NYC. Or just Google the perfect gene and use code JESSE15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at ThePerfectGene NYC with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you your khakis and get the perfect gene.

[Jim Weiner]

What the hell was it? And we immediately said, well, it had to be a ufo because I said, it's nothing military because I'm familiar with what we have. Militarily, I've Been in enough Hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, it didn't make any noise. It was totally silent. And as it flew off, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. It just had to be because that's how quickly it speed of sound accelerated.

[Jesse]

Yeah, no sound Mach 1. But no boom.

[Charlie Foltz]

No boom. Totally.

[Jesse]

Almost feels like it's gliding through space time or something.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I don't know how, you know,

[Jesse]

breaking Newton's third law, how it does

[Charlie Foltz]

that, but there was no sonic boom and that thing took off. Like Charlie said. All you saw was a streak behind it.

[Jesse]

How, how much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? So you talk about the next day?

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, we talked about it for like, the fricking next year. Everybody that we knew. Yeah, literally everybody that we knew and a lot of people that we didn't know, we shared this experience of seeing this thing and being chased by it by week two.

[Jesse]

Are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non human intelligence, aliens that.

[Jim Weiner]

No, I mean, we, we just said it was a ufo because it doesn't, it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with, like shooting off into the night sky the way it did. Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And we didn't have any sense of contact with any beans or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that

[Jim Weiner]

saw us and chased us across the lake. Scared the crap out of us, and then we were off and gone. But to get back to me shining the flashlight, to put that in a little bit of context, remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines and I worked with reactor system. Submarines operate with a bubble of air inside the. Between the outer hull and the inner hull. They have a bladder like fish have a bladder, and you fill it full air to maintain a certain depth. Well, apparently when I was on board, this craft, inquired about their power system because I was curious about it. And it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air. They can match gravity fields. So if you set it for, you know, like minus X, that might be like 80,000ft up in the sky. And set it for minus one, and you're 12 inches above the water. And they can move between. In fact, the encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California in 2004. They had a craft at 80, I think it was 81,000ft was like over 15 miles straight up in the air. And they sent planes up to that area, and when they could just start seeing it on their instruments. It dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under one second.

[Jesse]

I think it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000ft and seven eighths of a second. And then. Yes, then it zoomed up to over 80,000.

[Jim Weiner]

So. Yeah, but I mean, that's another thing that kind of disturbs me. When you're reading information, you get a lot of conflicting information and.

[Jesse]

Well, I think. I think you're actually right because. Well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said. And then the, you know, I think maybe visual.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, but it's like I've heard podcasts on the Allagash many, many times. Yeah. And they're mixing this person up with that person and.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, well, even Ray did that in his book. He kept getting Jack and I mixed up.

[Jesse]

So. So you get back, you see your families. What do you. What do you say to them and how do they react?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, I mean, half of my family believed me and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. You know what squirrel bait is, don't you?

[Jesse]

No, it's squirrel bait nuts. That's funny. There you go.

[Jim Weiner]

So, but over the last 50 years, and especially, most especially over the last 15 years, there's so much more information coming forward. So many more reliable, credible people were coming forward. Like the Prime Minister from Canada for Paul Hellier came Forward describing his UFOs, the information he had. The supreme Air Force commander of the Belgian military and you know, decades ago, way before we were even aware of Ray Fowler came forward, said these things were real.

[Charlie Foltz]

Cooper.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, Gordon Cooper, who was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts, Jim and I gave a presentation in portsmouth, Maine in 1995. Was it. It's either 5 or 6 and 96? I think it was. Yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. We had. We spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957 that he was on the base and they had a craft land, physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer who had a 16 millimeter movie camera and he was shooting film, 35 millimeter photographer, was shooting film and a 4x5 press camera. Photographer. And he said when they drove straight out, there was this sort of like, kind of like a tic tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod, and when they approached the legs, like retracted back into it and then it just went straight up in the air. When they were within about 3 or 400 yards. It just went vertically straight up. And I said, well what did the films look like? Gordon said never saw them. Soon as we got back they were all confiscated.

[Charlie Foltz]

And this saucer flew right over him and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed. And they went out there, picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming. And he lifted off, put the gear back in the well and climbed out at a very high rate of speed and disappeared.

[Jesse]

That is so nuts. Yeah, well he I think spent more time in space than anybody prior to him. In the Mercury.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh yeah, yeah. He was one of the Mercury seven.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Fascinating. Did he say anything else to you?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, about seeing when they were orbiting, he saw one not they each astronaut orbited by themselves and you know, because they only had seven astronauts, they only had seven capsules. So Cooper said that he had witnessed and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control. And then they like they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies. Who the hell did we meet? Some guy from Australia that had been recording and when they switched to a different channel he was able to switch because he knew where that channel was and he switched over to that channel and he recorded some of the die of the inter exchange going back and forth. It's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there, but it was just in tighter circles. The circles are expanding now.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I think that's right. But Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting Earth. Yeah, as an astronaut. Yeah, in the Mercury missions.

[Jim Weiner]

Right.

[Jesse]

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[Charlie Foltz]

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[Jesse]

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[Charlie Foltz]

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[Jesse]

Carhartt made possible.

[Jim Weiner]

And he had seen that one in before the Mercury program. Because the Mercury program didn't start until I think like 59.

[Jesse]

58.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, 58, 59. And so by 1969 when we landed on the moon, I was stationed over in Europe. I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, it was nighttime for us over there, all the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching the astronauts on the moon. So we all Grab our beers or whatever. We were drinking and we went out in the streets, thousands of us Americans, and we're all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers. Now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there.

[Jesse]

That's funny. So. So. But did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting earth with the other astronauts,

[Jim Weiner]

or just that it had come in proximity with him and I think he said it was green, if I'm not mistaken. But I don't know, I might be confusing that with other. Other astronauts that had had encounters.

[Jesse]

So you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus, right?

[Jim Weiner]

For 12 or so, usually.

[Charlie Foltz]

Usually, yeah. We never really started looking at it until the late 80s.

[Jesse]

So what exactly kind of spurred.

[Jim Weiner]

Catalyst.

[Jesse]

What was the catalyst?

[Jim Weiner]

To Jim together and Jack both at the same time in two different states. Jim lived in Massachusetts, Jack in Vermont with his wife. They both started experiencing these identical nightmares.

[Jesse]

And.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, similar.

[Jim Weiner]

Similar, Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

I don't know if they were identical, but.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, for lack of a better word, they were identical in as much as they had the same four people, the two twins, me and the other guy.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And so back to the entanglement thing. You guys are experiencing the same thing.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, even he would. But even then we didn't know what was going on. I remember he used to say, man, I had, like, a really strange dream last night where there were like, these things, these, like, humanoid things. And. And I was like, yeah, Jack, come on. It's a nightmare. You. I have them too. Yeah, I have the same kind of dreams. It's just a nightmare. Don't worry about it.

[Jesse]

And it was you, Charlie, Jack and Chuck in the dream, just like. Yeah, Z4 at Allagash.

[Jim Weiner]

Exactly. Yeah, that. Well, that was the only time that we had ever done anything together like that.

[Jesse]

I mean, so the dream is just. You guys are sitting there and what. What happens?

[Jim Weiner]

Like being in a doctor's office. Strange things are being done to you with no explanation.

[Jesse]

So are you guys on a craft?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, we. We somewhere with. After the hypnotic regression, we discovered that. Yeah, we. It seems we were on this craft, apparently.

[Jesse]

So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to. Or flashbacks, you know, point to something else having occurred. And then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression.

[Jim Weiner]

Jim had had an injury and he developed epilepsy. Temporal limbic epilepsy. And he was having a lot of seizure activity. So he was at the Beth Israel Hospital being followed for that and they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him, and he had all these wires glued to his head. And they said, while you're waiting around, you want to read a book or anything? And he said, yeah, yeah. So they brought in a tray of books and

[Charlie Foltz]

one of them was Whitney Strieber's Communion. And when I saw the face on the COVID I flipped out. I was like, why? Why are you giving me this book to read? I don't want to read this. And I, like, I. For some reason, I didn't really know why. It was just like this face, just negative reactions, had this extreme negative reaction, and I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I made a big scene. And then a few minutes later, one of the neurologists came in and said, jim, what just came down here? And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. And he was like, well, it's kind of weird, don't you think? And I was like, I don't care what you call it, you know, it's like, I don't know, I just don't like this. I don't want to look at this book anymore.

[Jesse]

It was like a visceral allergic reaction.

[Charlie Foltz]

It was more like a visceral reaction to it. And I got really upset.

[Jesse]

And then, you know, this is, by the way, common for people experiencers to see the COVID specifically of Communion, Whitley Strieber's book. And a lot of stuff bubbles back

[Charlie Foltz]

up, comes up, comes back up.

[Jesse]

And sometimes it's this, and then other times it's like, whoa, that looks familiar.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. And so he left. And after the test was done, the eeg, he came in, he said, you know, I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question. And I said, said, fine, what do you want to ask? He said, have you ever seen a ufo? And I remembered, like looking at him like, what the hell is going on here? And I said, well, yeah, as a matter of fact, I have. And he said, oh, you want to talk about it? And I said, not really, you know, I really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures. You know, I'm having these problems with seizures. And I think that's a little bit more important than talking about UFOs. And he said, well, you know, I know this guy, one of my professional people I know, who turned out to be John Mack.

[Jesse]

No way.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Who's this neurologist?

[Charlie Foltz]

He's. What was his name? Jonathan Silverman, I think it was.

[Jesse]

And was he affiliated with.

[Charlie Foltz]

He was Affiliated with Harvard.

[Jesse]

Yeah, and Harvard Medical School.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor?

[Charlie Foltz]

No, I thought he was an honest actor. And, and so I said, well, yeah, you know, I have had a UFO experience. And, and I was telling him about these nightmares that I was having, thinking they were seizured activity. And he said, you know, Jim, I think you really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who deals with people who have seen UFOs. I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so I wouldn't flip out again because I was. I was not happy. And so I said, you know, I really. I really want to just concentrate on the seizures. You know, let's concentrate on a seizure. So I tried to avoid it for a while. And then a few days later he came into my room and said, look, you know this guy named Ray Fowler, Raymond Fowler, is going to. He's a. A UFO investigator and he's going to be at this conference, which was pretty close to where Carol and I live now. It's a library, a Marriott hotel. There was a Marriott hotel near us. And he said, he's going to be doing. He's going to be speaking at this or he's going to have a book stand or something like that at this thing. And I want you to go and talk to him. And I was like, I don't want to talk to him. And he said, look, I really want you to do this. So he talked me into doing it. And that's how I met Ray Fowler. And I remembered when I met him, he was selling some his books. And he said, oh, you're the. Yeah, your doctor talk called me and so I'm expecting you. And I said. And he goes, well, why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this UFO that you saw. So I told him about it, and at first I thought he was bored. It was like, oh, yeah, I've heard this a million times. And then I said, charlie and myself and my identical twin. And then he went, what did you just say? And I said, charlie and I and this other guy and my identical twin. He said, oh, you have an identical twin? And I said, yes. And then he said, okay, I want you to start all over again. And then I could tell he was giving me his attention.

[Jesse]

Why was that?

[Charlie Foltz]

Somehow, I don't know.

[Jim Weiner]

You got a base population and a control population if you're going to do any type of medical experimentation. So that's Interesting. Two identical twins.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that's interesting. I also think from an investigatory perspective, if he's speaking to you first, he can get your whole testimony, then he can isolate your brother and then get the same testimony and kind of, you know, compare and contrast. And so it's probably from his vantage point, the potential for high confidence is really there, which is exciting.

[Charlie Foltz]

And that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions. We filed a report. That was the first thing we did. And then he said, would you like to do hypnotic regression? Have you ever been hypnotized? I said, no, I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean, isn't that kind of a controlled show?

[Jim Weiner]

Something.

[Charlie Foltz]

Some kind of weird thing, you know, that people believe in? But it's not really. Not science, you know, it's not science. It's not. It's not accepted in a court of law. So, I mean, how could it be legitimate? And he's like, no, it's just kind of this, like, super relaxed state, you know, it's not no big deal. So I said, yeah, sure, we'll do it. So we all four of us agreed to undergo regression, multiple regression sessions. And then we promised. We agreed that we would not talk about them between us. We would not report anything we remembered from these sessions.

[Jesse]

So no collusion?

[Charlie Foltz]

No collusion.

[Jesse]

Totally isolated. And what comes out of the regression session?

[Charlie Foltz]

Pretty similar stories.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. Something that I didn't think had happened at all. I thought was trace somebody. There's nothing to the story. We're out fishing. This weird light came up on top of us. We paddled away. We shined a flashlight at it. It flew away. That's the whole story, the whole land. Nothing to it. So after being hypnotized then, I was totally quiet with myself, even. I didn't even talk to myself. I. For like, the next four hours, I'm just trying to access, absorb, and accept what I had just re. Encountered that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with. Why the fire had burned out, why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed because of. Of its power source works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields.

[Jesse]

Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this plasma ball that's glowing 75 yards away, and then you guys kind of walking onto shore.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking, well, that's odd. What the hell happened to My socks. And then I'm thinking, where the hell are my shoes? Where the hell are my clothes? The fast thinker that I am. Then it's like, where the hell am I? And I'm like getting cold and freaked out, and I'm like looking around and just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus. And in my mind I'm screaming. I couldn't articulate, but I'm like screaming, get off your asses. Get over here. Help me. Get me loose. You know, what's going on? And at that time, I was probably about a first degree black belt in martial arts, Shotokan karate, Goshenjutsu, Ishiru Pukalan, and Aikido. So I studied mostly aikido for many years. But at any rate, I could take care of myself in a fight. I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons, and I defended myself successfully. But here I am butt naked and I'm as helpless as an infant. It was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while. And then I'm struggling to get up, and I had that sensation of movement. I look up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. So I dropped my head to move as way, as quickly as I could. And I probably only moved my head like another 3 or 4 inches till I was making contact with the surface I was laying on. And I couldn't go backwards any further.

[Jesse]

So you were laying horizontally on a table?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

What did the table feel like?

[Jim Weiner]

Kind of like a chilly. Like this room is chilly? Yeah, it felt chilly. Very sterile. Very much like an emergency room setting in a way. And then I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head, and it was over my chest, and it basically covered my entire torso. And then this blue light came straight down out of it. And it had like definite dimensional quality to it. The light did. I mean, it isn't like take your flashlight or anything and you shine it and light spreads and travels. This was focused. It was localized into one shape and that was emitted straight down onto my torso. And there were like two beings to my left doing whatever to this panel. I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began a clinical examination of me, for lack of a another term at all.

[Jesse]

What did the beings look like? Like, what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours leaning down?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, well, I got I got artwork of it in the computer, but. And. And it's in the book as well. A sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us, and no mouth like us. It was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding. They were like just a lump.

[Charlie Foltz]

And

[Jim Weiner]

not like a lump or a blob or anything, but like a slight bump out from the skull.

[Jesse]

Are you freaking out?

[Jim Weiner]

Freaking out. I'm beyond freeing. Freaked out. I mean, here I was, an individual. I mean, hell, I defended myself against seven armed kids in Boston a number of years ago. I had seven kids come at me with weapons. And, you know, I. I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in judgment. I just had to let them know that they had truly made one.

[Jesse]

With your words and with your moves.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, yeah, I let them know a thing or two.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Jim Weiner]

But at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything. So, I mean, at that moment, on that craft. But I was told not to resist, not to fight. I wasn't in any danger. Just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, oh, I can do that.

[Jesse]

Were you told telepathically?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, when I was. Well, you've had the experience of being on a roller coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around your shoulders. I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind, when I looked into these eyes, it was like two magnets grabbing one another instantly. And I mean, it was like, I understand what you're asking of me. I believe you.

[Jesse]

Instantly instantaneous comprehension of their intention.

[Jim Weiner]

Absolutely.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Jim Weiner]

Absolutely. And so I'm. They're like, huh, okay, well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released. So. All right.

[Jesse]

Were they gray in color?

[Jim Weiner]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they were grayish in color.

[Jesse]

Do you remember how tall?

[Jim Weiner]

Under five feet, spindly. Their hands had four digits, not five or three as are portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films. Their hands had four digits that hang straight down. And the center of the hand had, like, an articulation ability. So they would have four opposable digits where we only have one, our thumb. These beings had four opposable digits. And that was the way all their technology was geared, too, toward their hands. Just like our world is designed because of our hands, how our hands work to use tools.

[Jesse]

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[Charlie Foltz]

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[Jim Weiner]

but they had, like a clothing on that was. I didn't. For lack of a better word, it's like spandex type of appearance where, like, tightly conformed to their body. But they also. One of them also had this wand, like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so. Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do.

[Charlie Foltz]

I'll go back to the canoe. When we were paddling back towards the beach, the campsite, the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft, like, right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe. But under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on. On, like, literally on top of this. And it. This beam came down around the canoe and it was a hollow, like Charlie said earlier, it was. It was like a tube where our hose. Where the sheath of the hose is made out of light. And it was moving. Like when you see dust motes through sunlight, you know it's moving. That's had this quality to it.

[Jim Weiner]

It.

[Charlie Foltz]

But the inside was dark. And I remembered looking up, straight up into the top of this tube and it was dark in there, but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there. And I remember thinking, oh, shit, this is bad. And then the next thing I remembered was being in a room. Chuck, Rack and Charlie were sitting on this bench. And I think I remembered I was standing near it and Jack was out in front of me with these beans. And then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it, like the end of your finger. And he was doing. He was pointing it at Jack. And they were doing. They were like taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see, like, how it rotated. I thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were, like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways. And I was like, oh, cripes, man, they're going to break his arm. And then they had lifted his head back and they were, like, examining his throat. And they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight, like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes, with. And then I remembered them walking him away into this other area. It was like a hallway or something. And they took him in through there. And then they came for me, and they were doing the same thing to me. And then when they went to walk me through this area, I didn't want to go because I was terrified. I thought, that's it. We're going to get dissected. This is not going well at all. And I didn't get any messages saying, just relax or we're not going to hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this. This doorway or into this other area. And one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib, in between my ribs, you know. And I was like, I. Then I got. I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was going to be in trouble, that I had to cooperate.

[Jesse]

Was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything or removal of anything?

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, I remembered them taking sperm sample. And then at one point, I remembered this was over two sessions. The first session that. The first hypnotic session, I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces or I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session, their faces finally came through. And I remember screaming, they're bugs. They look like bugs. They had this kind of. It looked like a shape of an ant. They had a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front. No nose slit for a mouth. And I couldn't tell if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. And I thought they reminded me of, like an ant head or an insect head.

[Jesse]

Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other? Any details that were inconsistent between your accounts or. Or did they all line up?

[Charlie Foltz]

Some small details were different. Like, I remembered the device that they used to get the semen, store the semen. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom. And there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck. But, like, when they took the semen from me, I was like. I was so terrified. You know, my johnson was like three inches inside of me. You know, it was like, you are. You are not getting there. And so then I had this. I got this impression that things are gonna. You better change your ways or, you know, so I. I actually, like, forced myself to get that ere. And then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in. Whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a. With a wand coming, like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they actually inserted into his penis to get the sample. So that was different between his recollection and my recollection.

[Jesse]

Or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, it could have just been because of the way. I mean, I remembered. They let me sit up to do it. I remember saying, I can't do this laying down. I got, you know, let me sit up. And then I. I was able to function. And. And then there was another time. I don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not. Now I can't remember. But at one point, I remembered laying on a. On a. On a table, and there were two beings at my shoulders behind me, and two at my feet and two next on either side. And I remembered thinking. I mean, I was terrified, and I didn't trust these things. And so at one point, I'm almost ashamed to say, I thought, you know, maybe if I kill one, I can create a distraction and get out of here. I can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, because I had these really, like, thin pencil, like, necks, these, like, thin necks, I thought, oh, I could get my hand around there and just. And as soon as I had that thought, they. The ones who were near my shoulders and on the side, they moved away so fast, it was like a blur. And then one of the ones that were at my feet, just. It was weird. He kind of, like, reached up in the air with his arm. They had these long, long, thin, articulated arms. And when he came down, he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey. It was like a hockey puck, but it wasn't, like, perfectly round. It was more like an oval shape. And it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has. But it was like the size of a hockey puck, maybe a little smaller. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins. And then I couldn't move my leg. Like, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't move my legs.

[Jesse]

Did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from, or.

[Jim Weiner]

No.

[Charlie Foltz]

No, I didn't.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. Didn't even get a damn T shirt.

[Jesse]

I mean, no souvenirs you know, like

[Charlie Foltz]

I said earlier, it was like I got the clear impression that these, whatever they were, they were following a procedure. Yeah, it was, you know, step one, step two, step three, step four. I don't remember them putting me in any machines. Jack. They got a lot more out of Jack than they did me because I was like, so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was going to have a seizure. So they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure because I would be, like, freaking out during these sessions.

[Jesse]

But it was almost like the beings were in some sort of. Of automated assembly line and they were

[Jim Weiner]

following in a sense.

[Charlie Foltz]

In a sense, they weren't totally automated.

[Jim Weiner]

Just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles, on his legs, for several years thereafter. I don't know if it's that way now. Hair didn't grow there. It was like bald patch on its legs, really.

[Charlie Foltz]

And both shins.

[Jim Weiner]

And his identical twin brother, Jack.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

Had tumors growing in the exact spots on his legs.

[Jesse]

What tumors?

[Jim Weiner]

Tumors.

[Jesse]

Benign or.

[Jim Weiner]

We never knew. Because the tumors were removed at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont. Their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological. They were looking at that, so they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington, D.C. it was signed for by a major or. No, by a colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a colonel because they have one of the best pathology science labs in the world.

[Jesse]

Got it.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. When they removed this thing on his shin, it looked like a piece of bubble gum, pink in color, hard. And they said in the report that it resembled the type of growth that is common when you have bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound. That's what they said. They didn't know what it was, but that was what it. That was the closest thing that they could describe it as.

[Jesse]

Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants? Anything inside of your body?

[Jim Weiner]

I don't know. I used to have a head of hair. Does that count?

[Jesse]

No.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, okay. I have, like, a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that I had never known before. If you were to take like, an old pencil, the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something to take a plug out, that's the size diameter and very shallow, maybe about not quite an eighth of an inch deep. Right here on the inside of my leg.

[Jesse]

You described the beings as clinical.

[Jim Weiner]

Very clinical. Yeah. We were like the chimps, and they were like Jane Goodall.

[Jesse]

So they were about their business, kind of.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. Right. Best analogy come up with is like when scientists go to the, you know, Arctic and they see a polar bear and they dart them. And then while he's anesthetized, they measure his teeth and look at his, you know.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. What's that? What's the polar bear got to say about what happened to him?

[Charlie Foltz]

I remembered when under the hypnosis, the way I saw things was weird. It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see clearly. You. But out here, everything was fuzzy and unclear.

[Jesse]

Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Because all four of you did hypnotic

[Jim Weiner]

regression over a period of about almost a year.

[Jesse]

Do you have the audio?

[Jim Weiner]

Ry certainly has. I don't.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Would I be able to understand that

[Charlie Foltz]

some of the hypnotic regressions are word for word in his book?

[Jesse]

Would I be able to listen to the audio?

[Jim Weiner]

You'd have to get Ray, if he even still has that stuff.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Jim Weiner]

But if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, the Allagash Abductions, it has direct quotes from the regression.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Jim Weiner]

Questions as well as our responses and their analysis and their analysis of them as well.

[Charlie Foltz]

It's the best book on the case.

[Jesse]

Did John Mack over see any. Or did John Mack review any of the hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there?

[Jim Weiner]

I don't know what John.

[Charlie Foltz]

Sure, he must have over the years because we'd known John for many years. Over 20 years. Yeah, over 20 died after we had. After Ray had gotten finished with his investigation. I was. He said. Because during. During the investigation, he said, I don't want you to read any books. I don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else, because I don't want to, like, pollute.

[Jesse]

Yeah, well, hopefully now he would, you know, after having written his book. Book, hopefully the audio, the raw source material, he would sort of open source. Because if anybody, you know, if anybody should be in possession of it, it should be you guys, to be honest.

[Jim Weiner]

I mean, we could have purchased the complete manuscript. I mean, and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribed verbatim word for word. But, you know, that thing was like, literally.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, they're really.

[Jim Weiner]

Almost. Each one is thick.

[Jesse]

Well, hey. Of paper now we have. Have a little thing called AI and you run it. You run it through and you just say, you know, describe, you know, These accounts and give us, give us a summary and then you can query it and you. So I think, I think it'd be really cool to, to get these things kind of digitized and you know, and then run it through the AI and you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff.

[Jim Weiner]

Sounds like you found a project for yourself.

[Jesse]

I'm ready. Yeah, yeah, I'll try to get touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Fascinating. What, what was John Mack like? I am a longtime, you know, admirer of his. Obviously, you know, rest in peace.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, I went to his, his support group for a while after Ray was done with his investigation.

[Jesse]

And Jim, real quick, just for the audience, for basic context, John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department and brilliant guy. He actually even wrote the politics or prize winning, I believe Lawrence of Arabia.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, was an expert on him, the

[Jesse]

Prince of Disorder and as really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets. And towards the end of his career he started to, because he was a clinician, see people who had missing time and get into the whole alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins who was this amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So go on.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. So anyway, my impression of John when I first met him was I knew that he was a psychiatrist and he was affiliated with Harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo. And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were in my, from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people. One camp, which I considered myself a member of was the Nuts and Bolts. I called it the Nuts and Bolts. You know, I want to see physical evidence, I want to see physical beings. And then the other camp was more of a like. People who thought that they were most, that they, that their experiences were more ethereal, multi dimensional beings that weren't physical but communicated more of a virtually consciousness based, consciousness based. And that these people seem to think that the aliens were, are our saviors, that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff. Which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it, but I did notice that. And I think John was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist. Because what a psychiatrist job to do. Their job is to heal people, you know, and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff. It's like even though they, even though we all believe that we actually, that these experiences were real for us, it still creates all kinds of psychological problems. You know how to deal with other people who don't. Who think you're crazy.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

Or think you're, you're subhuman for some reason. There's something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box. And so my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his mission, his mission to help these people become self actualized where they could live with their experiences without pain or fear

[Jesse]

or anxiety or kind of reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously and still

[Charlie Foltz]

be able to live with their experiences. Because that was the difference between him and the rest of the community. The rest of the psychiatric community. Rest of the psychiatric community, especially at Harvard, which is why they tried to kick them out, was that. No, these people are, they're lunar. There's something wrong with these people. John was saying, look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological test I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people.

[Jesse]

And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior?

[Charlie Foltz]

No, the only mental problems I had was from the seizures because I'd have auras, you know, I'd smell things or hear things.

[Jesse]

How many beings were on the craft? I get so many headaches every month.

[Jim Weiner]

It could be chronic migraine.

[Jesse]

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[Jim Weiner]

Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-444-BOTOX to learn more. Well, hard to say. Yeah, yeah, it really would be because there Were people or beings in like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam area. And as we left, we passed. Because that was where I inquired about their power system, your propulsion system.

[Jesse]

And so. So you've. You learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, I was explained the way you would explain something to a six year old, you know, that operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water, different levels, by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hull to maintain that depth. And they could match gravitational fields. And so that was the way they were sort of examining example A to what we do. This is the way your submarine works. This is the way our craft works when it's in, in a planetary gravitational area.

[Jesse]

So it would, like you mentioned with the submarine, you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull which manages the depth. And you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating gravitational fields. Interesting.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

That's fascinating. Yeah, well, think about that. I'll mull that over.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, I mean, it's just like we can do things magnetically where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity, you have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another. And their ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from, from a denser field to a less dense field. I don't know. It's the only way I can think of.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Did you have any sense of where they came from, why they were taking, you know, samples from you guys?

[Charlie Foltz]

No.

[Jesse]

It's interesting because the kind of, you know, gamete, you know, semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot.

[Jim Weiner]

Lot.

[Jesse]

That's very common. It's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program and that's kind of where you end up with a lot of these guys.

[Jim Weiner]

Don't we do the exact thing, same thing to animals?

[Jesse]

Sure.

[Jim Weiner]

On our planet?

[Jesse]

Yeah, we domesticate animals all the time. We breed them, we create new species.

[Charlie Foltz]

We do the same thing with people and like, you know, dynasty families.

[Jesse]

It's wild to think that, but it's, it's true. And sometimes I think about these gray alien beings and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into, given that we're being domesticated right now. That is not a controversial thing to say. We are. You know, testosterone is dropping off a cliff, sperm count is dropping off a cliff. For men, we're losing, you know, the melanin in our skin. That happens over a long period of time. So you end up with these beings that, you know, they lose the melanin in their skin. Their prefrontal cortex is larger because decision making is probably more important. With the advent of the AI white collar work age, their ears and nose become vestigial. We're not hunter gathering. Their eyes become more slit, like as we use more screens. And their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important and they develop some sort of latent telepathic power, which you're now seeing the telepathy tapes. And people starting to lend more, more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we, we have this mind matter sort of thing. And so they've selected for all of the stuff that you would expect humanity to select for. It's very interesting.

[Charlie Foltz]

That's right, yeah. I mean, I've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future.

[Jesse]

Yes, yeah, that, exactly. There's a guy named Mike Masters. And then I somehow think that, you know, that's a really interesting theory. That's important. And then it's. That's somehow too simple. Like there's something else going on too, you know, but it's, It's. It's always hard to theorize.

[Charlie Foltz]

The problem I always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical. I mean, if they, if, if they can travel interdimensionally, why do they have craft? What do they need a craft for?

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

You know, it's like. What.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time. And that would be the Jacques Vallee idea.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, are they. Is, Is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see as physical?

[Jim Weiner]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

Did, did any of you. So, okay, so the, the, the physical evidence would be like the ankle, your hair not growing around your ankle, your

[Jim Weiner]

brother having tumors in the same spot.

[Jesse]

Tumors in the exact same spot. Anything else as far as, like a physical, you know, remnant of the experience?

[Jim Weiner]

Well, one of the things that has always fascinated me personally was the fact that all of us, or the three of us most certainly had major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork. After the Allagash, where I was training myself to be a school teacher, to work with children teaching art, I ended up becoming a medical artist working with medical scientists Medical researchers and being aware of all kinds of new technologies, the technology I mentioned that they use to look at our chests or at our torsos. When I was a medical photographer, I would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film, infrared film, and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies. Because with ultraviolet light, you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much, much clearer than you can with your naked eyes. So we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue. And your MRIs, prior to that was your X rays and then CAT scans and you can use ultrasound, sonic waves

[Charlie Foltz]

and tomograms, the whole nine yards, all

[Jim Weiner]

these different radiological tools. So I was talking with a physician about this and he said, well, he said that's just like when defibrillators first showed up in the world. They were these experimental paddles that you touch the heart or, you know, to re start the heart's function. And that all of these technologies that these beings have, we're slowly catching up. I mean, if you stop and any rational person stop and think. In 1903, which was 123 years ago, two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight. Not a glider. They weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location. They took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation. That was flight 66 years after that, we were walking on the moon in 66 years. Now, these entities, these beings that we don't know where they come from, they have science that's, you know, even patting us on the back saying, thousands of years ahead of us, us. They might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us. The Milky Way galaxy. There are more stars and planets in the Milky Way galaxy than grains of sand on planet Earth. That's what I've been told by astrophysicists. And that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me. Me.

[Jesse]

And

[Jim Weiner]

that the technologies that we have and we're developing, like sound technology without speakers, bone conducting headphones, they send the vibrations through your cheekbones. And I hear better with these than I do listening to people. People.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's fascinating. It you can bypass the ear canal through vibration. Beethoven went deaf, famously, and he would chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear. Once he went deaf, which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer. Speaking of very advanced technology, maybe the most shocking thing that you said, Charlie, right before we started rolling, which I got so excited about, is is I've been researching this guy named John Norsene. And he is, you know, this interesting engineer who has this Lockheed patent for essentially how to fly a UFO with your mind, how to use sort of biofeedback from the brain in order to remote control, remote pilot a craft. And he. He talks about brain prints, the idea that we have fingerprints, but you might also have a unique kind of electromagnetic signature just like Iris or whatever. So fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time. And I have to think if there is, you know, legacy UFO crash retrieval program, which I do believe they are either tracking him, you know, and he's now, since, you know, he's passed away, but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him. Would be my guest.

[Jim Weiner]

Yes.

[Jesse]

And so this is fascinating because you said that John Norsine. You spoke to John Norsine, and he was at Allagash in 1976, in August when you guys were there and experienced your abduction.

[Jim Weiner]

That's what you said.

[Charlie Foltz]

He read our report to the Ranger that same day. That's what he told us.

[Jim Weiner]

Whoa.

[Jesse]

He read your report to the Ranger that same day. And what did he say he was doing there?

[Charlie Foltz]

He said he was doing a TTR tag trace retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing, that they could monitor. They could monitor GPS field agents. You know, we tell them, like, blood pressure, heart rate, that sort of stuff.

[Jesse]

So he would.

[Charlie Foltz]

Location what exactly.

[Jesse]

He would put like this like RFID chip or something on some other military folk and they would sort of, you know, go off and into Allagash and they were testing to see how well they could track.

[Charlie Foltz]

They could track them. Exactly.

[Jesse]

That's so fast.

[Charlie Foltz]

That's what he told us.

[Jesse]

And does any part of you guys think that? Because, you know, I think about some of these narratives with like, you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear sites. And I don't. It might not be a coincidence that you're, you know, you're in the Navy in a nuclear capacity.

[Charlie Foltz]

There's a nuclear Air Force base, or was at the time in the 70s, up in northern Maine. What was the name of that base, do you remember?

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, it wasn't an Air Force guy.

[Jesse]

Loring.

[Charlie Foltz]

Loring.

[Jesse]

Loring Air Force Base.

[Jim Weiner]

Base.

[Jesse]

But this was near. Was it near allagascular?

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, 90 miles away from Allagash.

[Jesse]

Okay, interesting.

[Charlie Foltz]

Northern Maine. And it was a secret nuclear base. They had a episode, it was either 1975 or 1976, where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles and this is

[Jesse]

around the time that you guys had your experience.

[Charlie Foltz]

I don't know if it was around the same time.

[Jesse]

You said 75, 75, 76.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

Well, that's around the same time.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

Well, there's like a. Many reported incidents over our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them and then all the missiles go offline, all their computers shut down, and they go into a massive freak out. Freak out.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah. I've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand, and I think they're all legit. So 90 miles away, you had this Air Force base. They reported UFOs showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs, seeming to sort of, you know, track or do.

[Charlie Foltz]

They were. They were definitely mapping the bunkers.

[Jesse]

And that's a common thing, you hear. Yeah. That they're sort of, you know, testing the tip of the spear of human defense and, you know, knowing, you know, either to protect ourselves, protect their resources. You know, some of the people in the national security state say there might be, be, you know, doing ISR and doing recon. I don't know. I don't believe that.

[Jim Weiner]

I don't.

[Jesse]

I don't believe that either. Yeah, Yeah. I don't buy the whole, the, the idea that they're a threat. And, you know, I think they're, they.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, if they wanted to do something.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

We couldn't do diddly.

[Jesse]

That's right. And they would have done it years ago. They. Why?

[Jim Weiner]

Why?

[Jesse]

It's like they are so advanced. It's like. Yeah. Why do they need to, like, you know, play around with us before. Before, you know, it's like, what. At what point in your isr, you know, recon, do you say, okay, we can like, take these guys out? Like, they can. They could clearly take us out now if they wanted to take us out

[Jim Weiner]

a long time ago. I mean. Good lord. Yeah. You look back at artwork from the Renaissance era and you have a lot of depictions of like, UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's clearly a. It's a across civilizations and across millennia phenomenon.

[Jim Weiner]

So if they were going to threaten us, I mean, they would have done us way before the Neanderthal were bred out.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Jim Weiner]

And that's another thing. A lot of people think the Neanderthal were killed by CRO Magnum and Homo sapien sapien, which is what species we are. But they got literally screwed out of existence.

[Jesse]

I want to stick with this John Norsine thing, because I think this is really interesting. So he was doing ttr, this sort of tracking thing of other, you know, fellow military combatants or something, seeing if they go out in the field and track.

[Charlie Foltz]

I believed him. I mean, he was. He's. I got to know John pretty good.

[Jesse]

How'd you meet him?

[Jim Weiner]

We met him at mutual friend of ours down in Newport. Down in Newport would bring together experiencers, and she's somebody that research.

[Jesse]

Was he an experiencer? Normal scene?

[Charlie Foltz]

No, he was working with an artist in Jamestown, across the bay.

[Jesse]

What was he doing when you met him? Do you know what his job was, John?

[Jim Weiner]

I don't really know what his job was. He was telling us things, and then he said, well, I can't really tell you what I'm doing now, because I would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere. And I was thinking, what happened to him? And I was.

[Jesse]

He ended up dead in a hotel room.

[Jim Weiner]

Yes, exactly. No way down Tennessee, was it?

[Charlie Foltz]

I don't remember.

[Jim Weiner]

Somewhere. I think it was.

[Charlie Foltz]

They claimed it was a heart attack. But he told us at ans he said, because he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about.

[Jim Weiner]

It just seemed like science fiction.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, it seemed like. I even said to him, you know,

[Jim Weiner]

john, isn't that a bit out there about this?

[Charlie Foltz]

What he was drinking, you know, I mean, everybody was drinking wine and he was.

[Jesse]

And what did he say it was his job title in the 70s, in the. In 76, when he was at Allagash. Do you remember?

[Jim Weiner]

Primarily research function.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I think he was. Said he was doing government research. Had to be working with the military because they were, you know, ttring agents in the field.

[Jesse]

And no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smoke screen for, like, covert government experimentation?

[Jim Weiner]

I don't think so, no.

[Charlie Foltz]

I asked John personally, I asked John that. I said, john, you know, is what we saw up there. And, I mean, did you. Did we, like, stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into, and then you nailed us and. And hypnotized us or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your. But he said no.

[Jesse]

And he believed in what he said.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. No, I could tell he was telling the truth. He said, we wouldn't do that.

[Jesse]

We do.

[Charlie Foltz]

We would just go away.

[Jesse]

No, I mean, leave you with a

[Charlie Foltz]

story nobody's going to believe for sure.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's not like you guys have, like, had an easy time since you yeah. You know, came out with your story. No, I, I, I almost wonder if the, you know, meta phenomena of the UFOs showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity. They're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space time itself. You could imagine them maybe being interested in a, you know, chip tracking, you know, human experiment and them showing up around that. So, you know, I think the kind of easy, lazy skeptic thing would be to say that, oh, it's a, it's a smokescreen for some MK Ultra thing.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

But maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities, which were seemingly covert, might have attracted the phenomena itself.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, that's what John, that's what John

[Jim Weiner]

told Alexander Graham Bell. Let's go down. Listen to what he's saying.

[Jesse]

Yeah, exactly. But you're saying that's what John really told you.

[Charlie Foltz]

That's what he believed too. That's there. That the, the experiments that he was conducting was, may have been just attracting these things.

[Jesse]

When did he ended up dead in a hotel?

[Charlie Foltz]

I forget what year it was. In fact, that was, it followed a really weird email that I had gotten from him because he, he had contacted me via email. You know, he was a, he was an RVer. He was one of the early RVers.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And remote viewers.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Charlie Foltz]

And he had sent me an email and said, and some of the other people from ans. And he said, listen, I'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the naval college in Newport. Do you want to, do you want a VIP pass to come and, and attend it? I was like, oh, yeah, so okay, I'll get it all set up. And then at the end of his email, you know, he was into, I forget what the term is for this kind of use of language.

[Jesse]

Semiotics.

[Charlie Foltz]

Semiotics. Yeah, he was really into that. And the last sentence in his email said north. He said, I rved the upcoming lecture. John not heard nor seen.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Charlie Foltz]

And I remember calling Ann and saying, hey, Ann, what the heck does this last sentence mean? John not heard nor seen. I know he's in the semiotics and stuff, so, you know, not nor seen is his last name, but John not heard nor seen. And then just like two weeks after that, that he was found dead in a motel room. Something.

[Jesse]

Jesus Christ. So that was some sort of code where it's like he, he remote viewed his own.

[Charlie Foltz]

He viewed it and he wasn't there.

[Jesse]

And this was Code to say he's not heard nor seen.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I mean, what else could that mean?

[Jesse]

Oh my God.

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean, what.

[Jesse]

This is nuts. And he probably was working on program stuff, who knows?

[Charlie Foltz]

I mean he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown around Duncan Laurie is his name, he's a sculptor, glass artist. But at that time John was working with him on life energy auras around like rocks and plants and things like that.

[Jesse]

Bioenergetics.

[Charlie Foltz]

Bioenergetics, yeah.

[Jesse]

Very interesting.

[Jim Weiner]

Very. Yeah.

[Jesse]

Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we go on forever. But Charlie, you have had, because you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting UFO experience that I want to get into.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. In May of 1970, we were off the coast of Spain doing what we had gone out there to do. And it was just after we've knocked off working for the day, day, waiting for the call to evening meal. There were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck, have cigarettes, kick around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was a lieutenant, a highest ranking enlisted, which was a chief petty officer and then descending ranks from there, there. And one of the guys said, what the F is that? And so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship. And just as I was looking back, I saw these two lights coming toward us. I mean faster than you could swing your arm from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop. These things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop. And we observed them for almost two minutes, two full minutes. And one of these points of light or spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like, like a point of light to a line and was gone. Just snip, nip. But less time than it did for me to say that. Snip, nip. And it was gone. And then about 30 seconds later, the other one did the exact same thing. And they both went vertical, straight up so fast you just couldn't believe what you were looking at.

[Charlie Foltz]

That.

[Jim Weiner]

So we turned to the officer that was there and we said, sir, what the hell was that? And he looked at the chief, then he looked at us and he looked at the chief and he looked back at us and he said, if I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow because no one's going to believe you and this topic's closed. And with that he turned and ran up into officers country. And I never forgot in that Verbatim quote, you know, you. Nobody's going to believe you anyhow. Well, I think topic is closed.

[Jesse]

I think they believe you guys now because, you know, now you have directors of National Intelligence, directors of the CIA, presidents saying, we're looking into this stuff.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. You got pilots using their cell phones to photograph fricking UFOs that aren't from here.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's. The evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming, and I think the consensus is. Is rapidly shifting. And you said. And this is, I think, going to be also, if we find corroboration for this, really, you know, healthy vindication for, you know, Allagash as well.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, absolutely.

[Jesse]

May. May 1970. USS Holland is where this occurred.

[Jim Weiner]

Correct.

[Jesse]

And so off the coast of Spain. Off the coast of Spain.

[Jim Weiner]

And.

[Jesse]

And this thing was seen on the starboard side. And maybe it's still in the logs. So to anybody who has any experience with the Freedom of Information act and knows how to, you know, send those requests, try to. Try to get this stuff out.

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah. If you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in knowing what was reported.

[Jesse]

Awesome.

[Charlie Foltz]

Can we talk a little bit about. A little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork work?

[Jesse]

Sure.

[Charlie Foltz]

Because there were two things that changed. Well, we talked a little bit about just touching. I mean, this. This happened immediately after we returned to Boston and before we went to the Allagas. Jack was doing

[Jim Weiner]

endangered species.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, he was doing, like, really tight, kind of illustrative silkscreen designs. One of them is in the Museum of two, Museum of Art in Washington.

[Jim Weiner]

Poster, Devil's Pup.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. I don't know if the Devil's Pupfish is. But anyway. And then he was also doing these kind of, like, what kind of painting it is. Abstract expressionist painting of landscapes. That was the kind of work he was in. And then, like. Like immediately after coming back from the Allagash, he, like, just became obsessed with this. This, like, all this kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was building models of ICOs, dodecahedrons out of straws and.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Jim Weiner]

He was incorporating grids in all of his artwork and in very, very incredibly intriguing ways. Whoa. And that was one piece that I really loved. I would like to know whatever happened to it. Toss grid salad.

[Charlie Foltz]

Okay. That's Craig, a friend of ours.

[Jim Weiner]

Oh, Craig's got that.

[Charlie Foltz]

Anyway, and he was like, I, you know, we live together, you know, and I'm his twin, so, like, no secrets. And I'd be like, jack, what the hell is going on here? You know, like, what are you doing? He'd Go. I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And it just kept going and going and going. And years later, somebody came. Our friend Mike Asherman came to the house. This guy is, like, a brilliant MIT scientist, MIT programmer and scientist. He helped them build their tokamak at mit. And he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork, and he goes, you know, I know what this is, Jack. Jack, this is. You get this book, Secrets of the World Grid, World Grid and Anti Gravity by David Hatcher Childress, and that. Go to this chapter in here. You'll see Jack's. What's the math behind all of this stuff? What?

[Jim Weiner]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And this guy's building tokamak.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Wild. So it's almost like your brother was channeling something. Frontier science.

[Charlie Foltz]

The same thing happened to me when I came back, before I went up to the Allagash, I was making production pottery. I was making bowls and cups and platters and platters and plates and things and teapots. And when I came, when I was like, just days after this event on the Allagash, I had this epiphany. I mean, it was like an epiphany is the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden, this thing came into my head, fully developed, that if I worked with clay this way, I could do this really unique kind of creations with clay that are so far total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got kicked out of the program because of it, but I stayed with it, and I managed to. To convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to.

[Jim Weiner]

Some of the most amazing look at amazing artwork.

[Charlie Foltz]

And then, in addition to that, I became obsessed, like my brother, on ancient architecture. Places like Teotihuacan and Tiwanaku, Baalbek and the temples in Southeast Asia, Angkor Wat, Angkor Thomas, and the pyramids. And I. I just became obsessed because I had this.

[Jesse]

You know, that's also common among experiencers.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, I know.

[Jesse]

They become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy who you guys might be friends with, too, Mario woods from the Ellsworth Air Force base abduction experience, South Dakota, 1977. And he. He goes. After. He goes, this is going to sound weird, but after my experience, I just became obsessed with pyramids.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah, so did I. And. And I had this belief, which I still have. I believe that these sites, these structures, these architectural sites, are a form of macrochip technology, that they're not just ceremonial places that People went and prayed to their gods.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I believe that too.

[Charlie Foltz]

That they actually used these structures for some kind of. Of purpose, a functional purpose, you know, because why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to Teotihuacan, sun pyramid from two to 3,000 miles away in South America, and then put them under the floor structures of the temples? I mean, mica is used in the electronics industry. And so, like, why would they do that if it's not decorative? And it's not just in the Pyramid of the sun, it's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all utilize this mica. So, you know, mica, it's used as an insulator to make capacitors.

[Jim Weiner]

Another point.

[Jesse]

Very interesting.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. And that was like just something that.

[Jesse]

Creating strong electric fields.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah. I'm reading a book now. It's called Seeds of Knowledge, Stones of Power, I think it is. And I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week, found it on Amazon, where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe, Egypt, and they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations. And they claim in their argument in their book that these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seat seed more virulent. So they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or whatever, containers of seeds, and they found out that they increase yield per acre like three to five times.

[Jesse]

It's like electroculture or something.

[Charlie Foltz]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Ancient electrics.

[Charlie Foltz]

Bioelectrics.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim, Charlie, this was an absolute honor. It was a lot of fun. Fun. And yeah, it was really amazing to hear your story. And, you know, I hope people start to, you know, use the Freedom of Information act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well.

[Jim Weiner]

Be interesting, I'd like to know.

[Jesse]

And I want to give a shout out to the great James Fox for the very generous introduction here, and thank you both for your time.

[Charlie Foltz]

Well, you're very, very welcome. It's been an honor, Jess.

[Jesse]

Oh, my. All mine. Head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab official American alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the cowboy UFO tee is a fan favorite. We always keep in stock along with the atomic age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.

[Jim Weiner]

Sam,