Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher

Summary

American Alchemy: Episode Summary – "Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher"

Release Date: May 28, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this compelling episode of American Alchemy, host Jesse Michels engages with James Fowler, a retired military sergeant major and the lead operations specialist at Skywatcher, a pioneering technology company dedicated to detecting and analyzing Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs). The discussion delves deep into the origins of Skywatcher, its innovative approaches to UAP detection, the challenges faced in the field, and the broader implications of their findings.

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2. Guest Background

James Fowler brings over two decades of military expertise, having served 23 years in various government deployments before founding Skywatcher post-retirement in 2020. His transition from military operations to UAP research underscores a unique blend of disciplined investigation and innovative technological development.

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3. Skywatcher’s Origin and Mission

Skywatcher was established out of a military observation—“Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAPs,” James explains ([00:01]). The company initially aimed to enhance national defense by tracking advanced, unidentified aerial objects. Over time, Skywatcher's mission evolved to not only detect but also understand the underlying science and technology of these phenomena.

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4. UAP Classes and Taxonomy

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Skywatcher’s nine-class taxonomy for UAPs, each exhibiting distinct characteristics:

• Class 1 – Tetra: Described as tetrahedron-shaped with variable flight patterns. “Each UAP class has different characteristics. Some shimmer, some tumble, some spin,” James elaborates ([03:33]).

• Class 2 – Tic Tac: Approximately 40 feet in length, these UAPs mimic the behavior of the well-documented "Tic Tac" sightings and show advanced stealth capabilities ([35:33]).

• Class 3 – Block: Exhibits vibration and oscillation patterns, defying known physics, leading to theories like holographic projections or plasmoids ([63:55]).

• Classes 4 to 9: Include entities like Orbs, Manta Rays, Bright Stars, Hornets, and Eggs, each with unique behaviors and physical attributes.

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5. Detection Methods and Data Collection

Skywatcher employs a multifaceted detection system utilizing:

• Radar: Tracks the presence and movement of UAPs.

• Electro-Optical Sensors: Daylight cameras with enhanced bandwidth to capture more detail than the naked eye ([59:25]).

• Infrared Sensors: Medium and shortwave infrared technologies provide thermal imaging of UAPs.

James emphasizes the importance of cross-referencing data across these spectrums to build a comprehensive understanding of each phenomenon.

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6. Government Interaction and Challenges

James discusses the intricate relationship between Skywatcher and government agencies. Despite initial secretive collaborations, “the government has refused” to engage directly with Skywatcher on UAP data ([18:42]). The lack of official support hampers efforts to conduct scientifically rigorous test events necessary for in-depth analysis.

“We have five years of data, terabytes of radar imagery, video photos, signals intelligence,” James notes ([17:28]), highlighting the vast yet underutilized resources due to bureaucratic constraints.

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7. Specific UAP Incidents and Experiences

Several key incidents illustrate the complexities Skywatcher faces:

• Class 7 – Jellyfish: These UAPs emit electromagnetic interference, disrupting Skywatcher’s equipment. On one occasion ([57:08]), a helicopter was immobilized by a Class 7 UAP, leading to a tense encounter where James remarked, “We have never laid eyes on them… They evade us because they have a cloaking method from the air.”

• Class 2 – Tic Tac Attack: During a test event, attempting to intercept a Tic Tac using an energy weapon resulted in the UAP disabling Skywatcher’s systems ([83:21]).

• Class 8 – Hornet: Described as elusive and slow-moving, these UAPs present challenges in visual confirmation even when chased by helicopters ([101:02]).

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8. Psionic Elements and Influence

Integrating unconventional methodologies, Skywatcher employs psionic assets—individuals with psychic abilities—to predict and influence UAP interactions. One notable instance includes Jordan, a psionic lead, who “predicted a conflict in the sky” that subsequently materialized with increased UAP aggression ([81:38]).

“We introduced more chaos into the event,” James explains ([70:58]), referring to the integration of helicopter activities and psionic influence to better understand UAP behaviors.

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9. Future Goals and Expectations

Looking ahead, Skywatcher aims to:

• Demonstrate Findings Publicly: Within six months, the team hopes to conduct a public demonstration of their detection methods and possibly retrieve a UAP material ([102:22]).

• Expand Detection Networks: “We want to deploy the right sensors in the right mix,” James states ([115:37]), envisioning a nationwide network to monitor and analyze UAPs more effectively.

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10. Philosophical and Ethical Considerations

The discussion branches into the philosophical implications of UAP phenomena:

• Nature of UAPs: Are they advanced human (e.g., Chinese or Russian) technologies, non-human intelligences (NHI), or something else entirely?

• Disclosure Framework: Skywatcher advocates for a data-driven approach, emphasizing scientific transparency over sensationalism. “Disclosure isn’t about aliens. It’s about the science being released and disclosed,” James asserts ([50:47]).

• Ethical Concerns: Incidents involving directed energy weapons raise questions about the appropriate response to UAP encounters and the potential escalation into hostile engagements.

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11. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a mutual expression of hope and determination. Jesse acknowledges the frustrating uncertainties surrounding UAP research, while James reiterates Skywatcher’s commitment to scientific rigor and peaceful understanding of these enigmatic phenomena.

“We have a unique position to be open minded and observe and report, collect and understand,” James emphasizes ([29:25]), underscoring Skywatcher’s role as a trailblazer in the quest to demystify UAPs.

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Notable Quotes

• James Fowler ([00:01]): “Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAP.”

• Jesse Michels ([03:33]): “The taxonomy you guys had, nine classes of UFOs that you showed was really impressive.”

• James Fowler ([17:28]): “We have five years of data, terabytes of radar imagery, video photos, signals intelligence, RF.”

• James Fowler ([35:33]): “Class two is a Tic Tac. ... We have laser range finder returns on it and we have it in multiple spectrums of imagery, but we don't have any sigint from it.”

• James Fowler ([50:47]): “Disclosure isn’t about aliens. It’s about the science being released and disclosed.”

• James Fowler ([83:21]): “We have run events 24 hours a day. We've run events without the dog whistle, but the same technology and play and we don't get UAPs during those times.”

• James Fowler ([102:22]): “If all things go well before ... within the first half of 2025, we hope to do a demonstration and invite key members of the public from institutions and demonstrate this and maybe even get something to the ground.”

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This episode offers an in-depth exploration of Skywatcher’s pioneering efforts in UAP detection, the intricate interplay between technology and unconventional methodologies, and the broader societal and philosophical questions that arise from their groundbreaking work. For listeners intrigued by the mysteries of the sky and the relentless pursuit of knowledge, this discussion provides both enlightenment and anticipation for future revelations.

Transcript

[James Fowler]

Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of uap. After we turn on the dog whistle, UAPS literally come to us day after day. Jordan, our psionic lead, came up to me and Alex like, hey, tomorrow we're going to see, you know, a conflict in the sky. We're going to have different. UAPs are going to come in and there's going to be.

[Jesse]

He sensed that.

[James Fowler]

He said that. Whoa. We're seeing multiple classes, three classes today. We saw them all with binoculars and. Or the naked eye, which is really new for us. We've not had that experience in the last five years.

[Jesse]

These days, since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects they could mimic, and our detection platforms are so well advanced, so we could see a lot more than it really is. A zoom of options and possibilities.

[James Fowler]

We have three spectrums, and we see them on radar. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them. And they evade us, right? But they evade us because the ground can see them evading from the air. We've never laid eyes on them, right? We're sitting there with binoculars, sitting with s rear cameras. The reason why the electro optical can see them cannot is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light. I think the government's conflicted right now. I think they have advanced secret physics and knowledge and science. I agree with you that they've had probably since at least the end of World War II, you know, that there's.

[Jesse]

Physics knowledge held by aerospace companies. That is not. There certainly is materials knowledge. Materials. Well, okay, materials, which involves topological physics or whatever. What I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly. You know, it's like the things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground are the secret science things. Is the consciousness stuff. And it all fits together in this neat thing. And then also space aliens, and they're from Zeta Reticula. And you're like, oh, it's easy. And in fact, all of those things can be their own disparate threads.

[James Fowler]

The skies are not classified. And we are seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. Mid turn. Before he could actually turn it to the uap, the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Whoa.

[Jesse]

Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you?

[James Fowler]

Maybe you should interview me.

[Jesse]

I'm here with James Fowler. It's an honor to have you, man. I am beyond intrigued at what you're doing with Sky Watcher. We have a mutual friend, Jake Barber, who gave me the honor and privilege of helping tell his story after Ross Colthart came out as the first person, one of the first people to retrieve this craft of non human origin, an egg shaped craft. And he mentioned when I was interviewing him that he had this private enterprise he was working on called Skywatcher. Since then you guys have dropped a couple of really incredible videos. The second of which I have to say was pretty mind blowing.

[James Fowler]

Each UAP class has different characteristics. Some shimmer, some tumble, some spin, some look like they're alive and they just fly like a living object in the sky. UAPS are extremely hard to image. What is seen with the naked eye is generally not what is seen under camera.

[Jesse]

Even me, I'm sometimes skeptical like what, what, what are these guys going to find? And I thought the taxonomy you guys had, nine classes of UFOs that you showed was really impressive. And you're, I think, you know, pushing the field forward with that categorization and with, you know, the sensing techniques you're using. So James, thank you for being here today.

[James Fowler]

Appreciate you, Happy to be here, Jesse.

[Jesse]

And we're on this. What is this? This is the USS Hornet right now.

[James Fowler]

A museum. A floating museum.

[Jesse]

The floating museum. UAP Hackathon. So super cool. And I guess the main question I want to start with is how does one get into a private enterprise around detecting UAPs? What's the origin story for you?

[James Fowler]

Well, so I started out in the military, spent a career there, retired as a sergeant major, retired in 2020 and spent about 23 years working for the government, deploying a lot, jumping out of airplanes, doing interesting things and bad places usually. After I retired, I started several companies and some of my companies were contracted by the government to do different war game projects. At one of those war game events in 2021, we had an observation. It turned out to be Class 1 UAPs. And we originally thought that that was a government made us government made tool. So we're very secretive about it. We protected it and did all the due diligence to kind of make sure that that didn't get out anywhere, just in case it was made in America and need to be protected. So that's how we kind of got into it. It was actually by accident and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention I am the, if you will, the, the lead operations guy. I'm the guy who, who drove the Discovery, but I'm not the person I'M not the pioneer that actually discovered it. Right. So there's, there's two pioneers in this field who wish to remain anonymous right now. One is Mr. K. I'll say. And he's a. He's a really cool dude. He's like a physicist. Makes jet engines, flamethrowers, works on hot rods, and does physics for fun as well. Like, he's really, really cool dude. He is actually the first one on our team that figured out that, hey, there's UAPs over us. And, and, hey, you got to come look at this. And we discovered, okay, there's something going on here. And it wasn't for him, we would not have figured out the dog whistle. We have not have progressed to where we're at. It is because of him that we've arrived here.

[Jesse]

Sounds like a genius. Sounds like a cool guy to hang out with.

[James Fowler]

Oh yeah, he's a very, very cool dude. And the other one is Mr. D. He made a discovery with the signals. So for a while, we couldn't detect the UAPs with radar. Actually, the radar was detecting them but not telling us it was detecting them. And Mr. D figured out, hey, we can detect signals from these craft and geolocate them or direction, find them in the sky, and then put the camera on it and there it is. So those are really the two pioneers that, like, I feel like it's not fair if I don't mention them because they are the pioneers here, right?

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

I am merely the person who harnessed their knowledge and their pioneering attitude and capabilities to arrive where we are at today. If this is an advanced species and it's smart enough to do what it's doing, they have the upper hand, and we are the little ants. Under the magnifying glass, we had a class, class 7 UAP. We went ahead and launched the helo to pursue it. Before the helo got here, it actually came and hovered right over us. For the first time, we saw a Class 7 with the naked eye. It was very glinty, looked metallic through our optics. We've always thought it was purple or black, frankly. The reflections look like chrome, almost color.

[Jesse]

So you mentioned simulating war games and these UAPS show up, do you think? And obviously you get into speculative territory and kind of philosophy, and I really want to get into kind of the hard data because that's what you guys sort of specialize in, but you think that might kind of show that we're living in some sort of three body problem universe or something where they don't want us to harm Ourselves, they show up around nuclear sites, they seem to across the US but even abroad as well. And does that signal that they don't want us to blow ourselves up or something? Or why do you think they show up around these sort of war games?

[James Fowler]

So we have some ideas on that and I have some opinions on that. We'll say, for example, in 2021, the first time we saw them, we were running a war game for the government. The deliverable for that war game was tactics. And we had a blue team and a red team. The blue team's job was to bring American made, government made and commercial made protective systems for blue forces. Think air defense, think counter drone, think other things. And then the red team was again American made as well as one off, hobbyist type drones, aircraft and other things. And the red team's job was to penetrate the airspace of the blue team or react, cause them to be able to basically tactically envelop the blue team and cause them to have a loss. And the blue team's job was to stop that. And so we're running this event and I'm up on the roof of a very tall building with two young interns with binoculars looking for drones, right? So we're up there, I think we were two weeks into the project at this point, every day, 12 hours a day, running the war game and we were looking for drones as the, as the mission controller, project controller, if you will. So I can modulate launch now, don't launch now or hey, hey blue team, did you guys even pick up on that drone that was just here like. So I'm trying to modulate the exercise and keep things flowing so we can be effective in developing tactics. And my camera operator, Mr. K was like, hey, you have to come see this, there's something going on. So understand. We're up on the roof scanning the sky with binoculars, listening, seeing, and we see drones, but we don't see this other stuff. So I go down to the truck and he's like, look at this. And he shows me the Class 1 formation of 7. The first sighting we had, this was the last day of the event. So we were shutting down a few hours later.

[Jesse]

And just for the audience, class one.

[James Fowler]

Class one's the Tetra. Okay, so it's a black bodied object. It tumbles and spins at a very high rate of speed. We're shooting at about 26 frames per second, I believe. And between each frame it's changed drastically in its flight characteristics and signature so that we can only see a little bit of it and we can't really derive the shape. It looks like a tetrahedron, but it's really hard to say from the footage we have. It looks like a tetrahedron that has, is wearing a hat. And the hat looks like it's made out of atmosphere. As in if you have a low, low pressure, high pressure differential, you can get vapor. Right. As in when a fast moving jet breaks the speed of sound. You see the vapor on the wings? That same effect looks like what we're seeing around the class one. And it basically wears it like some kind of field is holding it in place. And it's kind of there around it, kind of hiding the black body from the observer, if you will. And then that vapor tends to flash. It catches as it's moving kind of violently, it catches the sun's rays, I believe, and reflects back. So that was actually what he saw was he was looking in the sky for drones, thinking nothing about UFOs, UAPs or anything else, and saw flashing and said, what is that? Zoomed in and be like, oh wow, there's seven of these craft in a tight formation maneuvering on us. Right. And again, I told you I was on the roof with interns with good ears and good eyes. Better than mine. We're not seeing a thing. So the human senses there was nothing there. But these things flew probably 2 or 3,000ft above us and we had no idea they were there at all. A drone of the same size.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

In the same flight formation would have been blaringly obvious. Glaringly obvious. Excuse me. So it would have been so obvious that we couldn't have missed it.

[Jesse]

So UAP by definition is, you know, unidentified.

[James Fowler]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And it's even broader than UFO because it's aerial phenomena. When you see these sort of tetrahedron, like you know, things in formation as you're simulating war games, is your first instinct, oh, this is some state of the art technology. That's probably Russian or Chinese because there's a lot of reasons for them to want to see the red team, blue team stuff that we're doing at home here in the U.S. right. Or is your first instinct. This is not from here.

[James Fowler]

I'm kind of all over the map, frankly. I get conflicting signals, if you will, from the data we're seeing. None of the rabbit holes, I call them. If you go down, they hey, it's made in America. Rabbit hole. Doesn't make any sense. I've been on project and had special programs without telling us, bring their secret things to our event. And so when we are exposed to that technology, which has happened several times, it's usually, hey, you signed an NDA. Don't talk about it, don't share it, delete that data. You can tell your interns that don't have a clearance, I know anything. And we're just going to write it off and move on. And nobody has done this for the UAPs. And it should be noted that we go to events and have gone to events over the years where the government has been there already on another project and we show up day one and they have UAPs all over their event and they have no idea.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

Because they're not looking for them. They don't know they're there. They're very hard to see. If you don't know how to spot them with your technology, you're not going to be able to even see them or acknowledge that they're in your airspace.

[Jesse]

So it's either adversary or nhi. Right.

[James Fowler]

I would take it a step further and say it's not either or necessarily. It could be both.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[James Fowler]

Right. And I would also offer that what we are seeing, my observations and my team's observations are that whoever or whatever is controlling these is probing our capabilities. So it's not like, you know, if I see a class one, it doesn't just stay in a straight azimuth and fly north to south like it was already flying. No, it approximates us at the edge of our active telemetry systems, like a radar and jammers and other equipment that may or may not be present during whatever kind of event we're running. It will approximately on the edge of that effective bubble and then fly through the. Fly through the. The bubble of effect. Wow. So they're putting themselves in beam of our systems.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And there's very few reasons why you do that from a defense perspective.

[Jesse]

They're gathering information, probably.

[James Fowler]

I mean, there's, there's not a whole lot of reasons why you would put yourself. If I had the secret stealth technology, if I have an F35, am I going to fly it to Russia and buzz Moscow and get in their radars and let them quantify what my F35 looks like.

[Jesse]

Right?

[James Fowler]

I would. I wouldn't. I'm not an Air Force guy, but I'd imagine. No, yeah, I'd imagine that would be dangerous. Not because of getting shot down, that's obviously a problem. But also because now they know precisely how I look on their radar, which means they can weaponize that to detect me in the future.

[Jesse]

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[James Fowler]

No. So there's too many variables really to understand. We have five years of data, terabytes of radar imagery, video photos, signals intelligence, if you will. RF We've collected direction finding, all this different, all these different categories of data. And even with that kind of data and that kind of time, we don't have enough data yet to tell us the answer. And I would offer the reason for that is we're not running scientific test events. Right. There's a distinct differentiator there. Right now we're running an operation. An operation means I have just enough personnel to man the equipment to do the task. And then we're going to record what they collect while they're running that operation and doing that task. And then we're going to post, analyze it. A test event would be, I would have extra people with clipboards and whistles and scientists looking over our shoulders. I probably have double or triple the labor footprint. And they would have a series of test events, criteria objectives that are pre coordinated and they will come out and ensure that we capture all the data and it's all meticulously done. And then after the event, we write a report and do the thing. I would offer that we strive to arrive at a test event. And the reason why we strive is it's very expensive.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

I have to double or triple my cost now in labor to pay people to come out and run a test event, which is very hard to do as a commercial entity. The government does it all the time because the government has endless wealth. Right. As a commercial entity, like where does that money come from, especially as a private enterprise who is not selling anything to the government right now or doesn't have a relationship? And then I would offer, it's further compounded by we have been contracted in the past by the government to collect UAP data and those contracts had nothing to do with UAPs. Right. We continued running war game events or other events for the government when all they really wanted was UAP data. Right. So, so I say that because I don't foresee any future, at least in our current paradigm, where the government's going to say, hey James, hey Skywatcher, we want you to go collect UAP data at whatever location and give us that. That. That has not happened to my knowledge. And I know of nobody that's had a contract like that. Instead it's can you tell us what's on our airspace? Can you run a war game? So because of that mismatch in reality, in the inability of our bureaucracy and decision makers to directly affront the situation of UAPs and said they have to be surreptitious about it and talk.

[Jesse]

Right.

[James Fowler]

You know, kind of circular about it.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

That actually befuddles our ability to have a test event or T E or test evaluation where we have a large body of people present.

[Jesse]

Right, yeah. It's frustrating. You have to kind of talk about it in a circular way and you can't just kind of go, go to the heart of the matter because it's not even acknowledged at the highest levels of our government still, which is crazy.

[James Fowler]

I'd say it's even deeper than that. There's really three categories of people. When you talk about UAPs. You have one category which is religious. In the religious category you'll often find people who are very intelligent, very smart, like normal people. But they tend on this topic to assign a religious filter to the lens they're looking at it through. Right. And the challenge there is you're going to get somebody saying, well, you're talking to angels and demons, you're interfering with God instead of hey, what is the science behind what you're seeing? Right. And so that lens can be detrimental to us being effective with that group. The other group is the group that thinks everything's man made, made in China, made in Russia, made in the U.S. right. That group also has a lens and they look at through a national security lens.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And so they think, well Skywatcher, you're revealing national secrets, you're sharing too much detail here and, and subverting the national defense. Right. And so again they're close minded because they don't want to discover more because they feel like they're patriotic and nationalistic, but really they're anti science almost.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

And then the third category of people are people who are truly open minded, who can put aside preconditions, pre beliefs or things maybe from their upbringing or personal beliefs and just study science and let the observations and observables tell them what it is.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And so you never know who you're going to get, which is why, like I said, we have to be circular in our true objectives when we speak with these officials because they are not prepared to speak with us in truth.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's well said. It feels like it's kind of Asylum and Charybdis and that two failure modes are on the one hand, yeah, maybe being too mired in past dogma, kind of religious fundamentalist dogma. And then on the other hand it's like atheist materialist reductionism. Nothing. It's all nuts and bolts and there's nothing else or something. It's total closed mindedness kind of in both directions or something. And an approach that is kind of open minded and just data driven I think is great. Another question this begets and then I want to get into the core data because I think you guys have a lot of interesting stuff there but is like, so if that's a spectrum, the materialist and the kind of religious thing, I think there's also a spectrum of they're all good and they're all bad. And to me Occam's Razor is probably just like humans probably there's a mix of like there's good and there's bad or something. And so I don't know if you have a take there but you have like Lou Elizondo, long time OS app, a tip, modern day UFO whistleblower who is for a while at least was more on kind of the threat narrative. And then you have Stephen Greer who has known Jake for a while and he's more on the like I just interviewed him, he's like they're all good. And I would say it's probably in between those two. The answer can't be all good or all bad or something. So I don't know if you have a take there.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So some of the UAP we've observed just maneuver through the airspace and depart. Right. So that's really like hard to determine friend or foe, who is it? Which is why for a long time we were very secretive with this. We thought what we were seeing was red or blue. Right. We assumed that it was man made and it was a weapon system being utilized on us to see what we would observe or learn from it. That isn't necessarily the case in our minds anymore, but that's why we kept everything very secretive to protect national defense. Right. Now that we've understood some new things, we've kind of come out if you will, and are more open about what we're observing which is why we're public now. So the Class one just moves through. We don't see any adverse reactions or really many interactions with the Class 1. It will dodge our lasers if we shine lasers at it. But that's as much interactions we'll get from that class at uap, there are other classes who have interacted with us in a negative manner. Some of them interact, I think inadvertently negative with us, as in they're emanating perhaps through their technology. They're emanating electromagnetic waves that are in energy that are interfering with our equipment. So it's more of an area effect. So I feel like it's probably not on purpose. And then there's another class that's actually hit us with a microwave weapon, so actually shut down our systems, turned everything to the off position. Right. That's a very deliberate. Now is that defensive or offensive?

[Jesse]

Right.

[James Fowler]

Is it shutting us down to protect itself or shutting us down to. To understand how we'll react?

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's so interesting. It's like you get into all these philosophical questions of are they prepping the battle space or are they showing us that our ways are brutish and our war games need to stop or something because we might blow ourselves up. And it's just really, it kind of boils down to philosophy. And so I do think gathering data is good. But it does bring up this interesting question, which is from my limited experience with you, you seem like very like practical and very data oriented and like just kind of the preeminent kind of practitioner, like where you, you want to find an answer, you don't want to get caught up in, you know, necessarily like crazy kind of philosophical discussions. I've spoken with Jake a little bit before you and it does feel like this kind of spiritual journey for him. I've spoken with Alex Klokus, who I know, you know, is working with you guys as well. It seems like kind of a spiritual thing for him. How do you reconcile that? You know, is it good to have kind of a mix as far as, you know, the team you want, you know, some guys who are a little more philosophical, some guys who are kind of more execution oriented or how do you, how do you view that? Because it does feel like a lot of people who get into the UFO subject and study it from the government perspective, like OS app with, you know, Skinwalker Ranch, they come in like, maybe like, oh, we're just going to figure some stuff out. And they come out, I don't want to say more religious, but more like reverential, like where they're like, like I was, you know, I went and then I got a little spooked. Honestly. I had a weird month after I went and it kind of put the fear of God in me with this stuff. So, yeah, I guess how do you think about all of that?

[James Fowler]

So let me actually take a step back.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

To our origin story.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

Right. So I'm not a whistleblower. I never held a clearance in the government related to anything or was right onto anything with UAPs whatsoever. My government experience has frankly just made me the person I am who can be open minded and observe and report, collect and understand. Right. So that's kind of a unique position to be in. Unlike Deva Goresh or Jake Barber, others Lou Elizondo, I have no whistleblower story at all. Everything we've done for sky watcher is 100% commercial activity. That commercial activity might be in support of a government event, again unrelated to UAPs. Because the government has said, look, thanks, thanks for the observation. We have nothing on this. Right. So Sky Watcher truly is a technology company that was started because of uap. Right. So if you look at Anduril, you look at khaki, you look at Boeing, Lockheed, all these other bigs, they were started for national defense purposes. Right. So they started with a preconceived notion of I want to spot a stealth aircraft, I want to spot in Mig31, I want to spot a supersonic missile, and they work backwards to develop technology for that purpose. Skywatcher, conversely, has started with, we're looking at an unknown enemy weapon system or weapon system or thing in the sky. We don't know what it is and we don't have a good signature of what that looks like. And we want to detect that. So what we did is we consulted with industry experts, pioneers in their craft, academia, some savants, and said, here is a classified drone threat, here's the parameters I need to measure. How do we design a system that will actually detect this drone threat and enable us to understand more about that threat. So for three years we've been developing Skywatcher as a technology that basically flips the paradigm on its head. Instead of saying, I want to track a MiG31, we're saying, I want to know what that thing is in the sky that nobody knows is there and I want to quantify it. So Skywatcher actually was my cover term for UAPs. Right. I have briefed VCs, I briefed high net worth individuals, I have briefed the government on Skywatcher as a technology without ever saying the word uap. Because again, when we thought that the UAPS might be a national defense problem.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

We approached it from a veil of secrecy.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And Skywatcher was how we would converse with people about Technology development that's really slated for UAP detection and tracking. So we are a technology company rooted in unexplainable, unknown physics and trying to understand that from a defense perspective. Right. So because of our scientific approach to this, we have a lot of data and we, we don't have a lot of room for areas that don't have data. Right. So what I mean by that is, as I said in the episodes, I'm not a believer. Yeah, I don't want to have faith in this. I don't want, I don't want to have to trust me bro, and like, see, you know, believe you when you tell me, no, show me the data and then I'll know and I'll have knowledge and then I can understand.

[Jesse]

You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show. Lately I've been thinking a lot about aging. Not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called Qualia Senolytic and it's been a major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn out cells that stop dividing but don't die. They hang around in your body, draining your energy, clogging up your recovery and generally making you feel older than you are. Qualia Senolytic is a first of its kind supplement formul plant based compounds designed to help your body naturally eliminate these zombie cells. It's not something you take every day, just two days a month, but it supports your body in aging better at the cellular level. Since I've started taking it, I've felt sharper, lighter and like my body's resilience has come back online. It's vegan, non GMO and grounded in serious research experience. The science of feeling younger. Go to qualiolife.com Jesse for up to 50% off your purchase and use code Jesse again, that's J E S S E for an additional 15% off. That's Q-U-A-L-I-A L I F E.com Jesse J-E-S-S E for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode.

[James Fowler]

So on the UAP side, in terms of craft in the sky, I think we have that right. And I say that the episodes we've produced. Why do we do that? Alex and I had a conversation about this and I was very insistent, as was he. Like, we have four, four and a half years of data.

[Jesse]

Yeah, right.

[James Fowler]

It sits on a drive in a certain place.

[Jesse]

And that's also important for the audience to understand that you've been at this for a while. You. The public reveal was more recent, but you've been at this for almost five years.

[James Fowler]

Five years, yeah. The analysis of that data is onerous. It's hard to do. It's expensive. And Gary Nolan talked about that today at the hackathon about how hard data is. Even his data that he has, it's very hard and expensive. There's a real monetary cost to conducting the analysis and doing it scientifically. So the data is great to have, but analyzing the data is very hard. So instead, as an interim, we've decided to video and document the activities as they unfold. And so at a great cost to our own business and expense, if you will, in time and energy and effort, we have documented these things so that when the data is released scientifically, they have a backstory to understand how the data was collected. Because again, the date, the scientific report, a white paper, a scientific journal saying a thing is just a snapshot. And most people have no clue what that means in terms of general public. But if they can reference a video that covers that place and time of that event unfolding where that data was collected, now it tells a whole story. Now you have the anecdotal, you have the literal, live, imperfect experience as things unfold. And then you have the post very scientific data analysis that actually covers down exactly. Explicitly the analysis of how that event unfolded.

[Jesse]

Yep. And I want to get into the data. Final question before we dive into the taxonomy and all the classes, which I'm really excited about, is Jake Barber. How did you partner up with Jake and how'd you meet him?

[James Fowler]

So I was very cautious for a long time of who I would meet with or talk with. I actually met with Gary one time and did it in a way that frankly made him very uncomfortable because he was this guy meeting me. He was a little freaked out because I was very secretive in very spy versus spy type of meetings with Gary. And then I also ran into some congressional staff members, did the same thing of like, I don't want to be on your calendar, but I want to. Like, your. Your Congress person is saying publicly that they want this. Well, I have it. Let's talk. But again, we kept everything in the IC and very secretive. So First I met Gary, and then I met Alex. And then after we. We met. Jake and I met when we started forming the. The company Skywatcher as a. As a private entity.

[Jesse]

Cool. All right, let's get into the data. So you guys just released a video that's just fascinating, where you have nine classes of UAP that you described. Can we go through them class by class? Are you cool with that?

[James Fowler]

Yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

[Jesse]

And I don't know if you remember all of them off the top. I have a picture on my phone if you know all. Okay. I love it. Awesome. Man who knows his craft. Okay, so no pun intended. So let's go with Class one.

[James Fowler]

Class one is the Tetra. The Tetra does have different characteristics than just multiband imagery. So electro optical, which means daylight camera, usually with a little bit more bandwidth, if you will. So you can see a little bit more than the human eye can see in the visible spectrum. Then we have middle wave infrared and shortwave infrared. All three of those sensors see the Class ones. It registers on all of them. And then also we have radar that we see the Class one on.

[Jesse]

Any typical behavior that the Class ones engage with. You mentioned they were in a formation before. Any other interesting data that you have on them?

[James Fowler]

Yeah. So the class one tend to fly in groups. We've seen one or two as a singleton, but usually they're in groups of three to 20. And that group tends to fly through in some kind of formation. And it can be everything from four or five craft seemingly locked together, maneuvering as a group with another group and even a third, all the way from that to looking like a V formation, like a stealth bomber would look or a flock of birds. But clearly during uap, things that don't happen in nature. So we've seen them fly through in the. In those formations right over us. Right. So like most UAPs, they'll deviate their flight path that we first see them on. Then they'll come into beam of our telemetry systems, and we'll see them on a map, and we'll know exactly the altitude, airspeed, or, excuse me, ground speed. Radar cross section will have all that data on that craft at that time or that group of craft, and then we'll follow their flight path as they fly right over us or right next to us or whatever maneuver they're doing. So we'll see the Class ones fly right over us, like I said, usually in a formation of some kind.

[Jesse]

Okay. Class two, what are we looking at?

[James Fowler]

Class two is a Tic Tac. So it's about 40ft in length. We saw that first in 22 and then in 23. And then we didn't see them again until 25, till February this year. We've seen them in groups of one to three. They don't appear to fly in formation as much as arrive together in a group and then depart as singletons. So really hard to say. We don't know that we have them on radar yet. We have a lot of radar data and for example, in our February event, we had a class two which exhibited some very strange behavior which he'd never seen. It actually used the hills to hide from us and came in hide from our primary sensors. So we were watching jellyfish fly through the sky and started having interference with our systems, we believe from the jellyfish. And then we had some weird radar blips to the north of us. And so we started looking to the north and then we saw several uap, one of which was a Tic Tac. So, so the Tic Tac, we have laser range finder returns on it and we have it in multiple spectrums of. Of imagery, but we don't have any sigint from it and we don't have any radar that we know of from it.

[Jesse]

Do you guys have infrared?

[James Fowler]

Yes, because.

[Jesse]

And you have infrared of the Tic Tac because. Yeah, I think of nimitz, you know, 2004, and I think that the best imagery for that was thermal, you know, Forward looking infrared. 2004 case with David Fravor and you know, USS Princeton. So.

[James Fowler]

Well, well, so what's interesting is the government, if they have. Have never released the electro optical view of Tic Tac. I don't know their motivation, whether they have that footage or they have chosen not to release.

[Jesse]

They say they do, but.

[James Fowler]

But I'll say in our footage of the Tic Tacs, they are not around cylinder only. Right. They're actually more like a porcupine.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fowler]

So if you look at, if you zoom in and enhance the footage, you can actually see little spikes all around the craft, around the perimeter of it.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[James Fowler]

You know, kind of riding the. The surface of it. Furthermore, I talked about in the other video, the episode that they. They appear to bend when they come out of high G maneuvers.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[James Fowler]

So they're flexible or semi rigid, if you will.

[Jesse]

I think you. Do you guys have video? Maybe that's the Manta, I don't remember. But it feels like the thing is bending in the video.

[James Fowler]

Is that the technique and pro Pixel did a good job of zooming in, enhancing and showing that.

[Jesse]

Okay. So I. Enhancement.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah. Which, which we didn't do ourselves on purpose.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fowler]

We wanted to give our government the chance to say stop sharing this data sensitive. So we did a very controlled limited release with footage that wasn't the most spectacular.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

To give the government that opportunity to ask us to rescind or stop.

[Jesse]

Have you gotten any calls to stop what you're doing or.

[James Fowler]

No, quite the opposite. I've sat in meetings with various agencies of the government very recently. We do routinely share a lot with the government and I've asked the government to nebulize me, to give me an NDA to tell us to stop. Make us, you know, make, give us some kind of indication or even lately, hey, give us some talking points.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Like what helps national defense on this.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And I'll tell you, the government's refused. So I, you know, what does that mean?

[Jesse]

You know, I, you know, in a much, probably smaller, more mini way than you've experienced, feel the same way. I feel like the lights are on but no one's home. Often with the, on the government with this stuff where on the one hand you have David Grush's claims and others and honestly a lot of historical evidence that we have real reverse engineering programs, we have saucers and hangers, we know a lot about this stuff. And then on the other side of the spectrum, it's like you continuously meet these people where you're like, oh, that person should be one of the architects of this thing or whatever. You get into these rooms and it often feels extremely frustrating where it's like no one knows what's going on and if there's anything, you know, we were talking about this earlier like, you know, China has its own centralized way. Even if you read the three body problem, it's like they'll just knock on the scientist door and say, you're coming with us. Right. And in the US you have these kind of private side, you know, people innovating on, you know, anything happening. And that's, that's, it's always this kind of distributed, loose thing. It's not this fully top down centralized system. So it's just so hard to make sense of how much the government actually knows on this. So it's your sense that they don't know? Are they playing dumb?

[James Fowler]

I think it's kind of a mix. So when I meet with the government and ask them, usually the conversation will go something like, james, nice to meet you, let's talk about the data you have. Let's talk about what you're seeing. I'll lay out online classes, kind of give them probably 30 minutes to an hour long overview and then they'll say great, since we're in a skiff, I'm going to make a call to this other program has all this knowledge and data on stuff and I'm going to ask them if anything you have matches what they're doing. And the answer is always no. The answer is always they have no clue what you're talking about. There's nothing in inventory that matches what you're describing. So yeah, we don't know. Right. And then usually what happens after that is a deer in the headlights look. I held a, held a meeting recently where there was a guy on the VTC in a classified settings kind of smirking. Right. I thought he was incredulous or thinking like thinking negatively about what I was saying. Turns out he was smirking because he already has done his due diligence and says like we have no knowledge of any of this. Right. As in like maybe. I think he may have even said maybe this is off planet. Right. Which is quite shocking when I'm in a room with subject matter experts from the government on UAP and UAP tracking and history and the answer they give me is maybe this off planet. And he says in a smirking manner, because like I said, there's different categories of people and even, even in a room of people who are studying or trying to learn about this, there's still that, that edge where there's a little bit of taboo for him to say that I think it's off planet.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Right. So. And I would also offer that typically engineers and scientists are bad liars. Usually they're not really good at keeping a straight face and talking around a topic.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And I have purposefully affronted several of them or confronted them with some of our findings to see and measure and kind of put them in a, in the hot seat to see if they have a reaction. And the reaction I get from them is typically very honest that they have no idea what.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[James Fowler]

And these are people that should know about it. So, so do I think that there is misdirection and, and information operations warfare type stuff happening? I do believe there is that happening. Do I think that our government has some reverse engineering or technology? Yes, I think that is the case, but I don't think that that is necessarily tied to what we're observing in the sky.

[Jesse]

It's like the deeper you go on this you really have to. What I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly and for you to have, you know, it's like the things you're seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground, are the secret science things, is the consciousness stuff that we all kind of intuit might involve. You know, it might be the next kind of scientific paradigm. And it all fits together in this neat thing. And then also space aliens and they're from Zeta Reticula and you're like, oh, it's easy. And in fact, all of those things could be their own disparate threads. And it's just this extremely wonky, hard thing to figure out. And the deeper you go, in some ways, the more confused you get, which is cool. I mean, that's like any, any cool subject that's generative, but it's not often the disclosure I think people want. You know, they want this like, neatly packaged, you know, tied up in a bow thing. And I don't, I don't know if that's ever coming. Let's talk about a guilt free alternative to alcohol that's perfect for your dry January or any time you want to unw Kornbread's organic CBD gummies. These gummies are an absolute lifesaver for my evening routine. They're a natural way to relax, celebrate, or wind down without the hangover. I've cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years. For a lot of you trying out dry January or cutting back generally, it's not always easy. But swapping that glass of wine for cornbread CBD gummies is a total game changer. It's a simple upgrade to your evening routine that leaves you feeling great the next day without sacrificing the fun. Plus, with all natural ingredients, they're the perfect way to stay balanced. Cornbread hemp isn't just a product. It's a small way to bring balance into your life. Whether you're journaling, meditating, or simply enjoying some downtime, these gummies elevate the experience without any of the guilt. It's like having a moment of calm in your pocket, ready whenever you need it. Alcohol doesn't have to be the default anymore. Whether you're cutting back for dry January or just looking for a healthier way to relax, you've got to try cornbread CBD gummies right now. American Alchemy listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com Jesse. And use Code Jesse at checkout. Again, that's cornbreadhemp.com Jesse Code Jesse. Cornbread Hemp. This is the good life.

[James Fowler]

Yeah. And I don't think that disclosure is what the common populace thinks it is. So when we talk about disclosure, we released the disclosure framework because it's our belief that in our understanding and our desire that when we release data and scientific studies, nobody should have to ask what that means. Right. When a third party looks at our data and reaches conclusions, nobody should have to say, does that mean that there's aliens? Does that mean that the government knows what's going on? Like, there should be some kind of framework that covers what that means and that can be clearly articulative. This report in this data means this. So that's why we laid out the disclosure framework. But I would add a twist on that and that it's my opinion that disclosure isn't about aliens. It's not about UFOs, UAPs. It's my opinion. Eric Weinstein, I believe, has said that there's secret physics. Yeah, secret physics or secret science. And I believe that that is the.

[Jesse]

Case, you know, that there's physics knowledge held by aerospace companies. That is not. There certainly is materials knowledge. Materials.

[James Fowler]

Well, okay.

[Jesse]

Materials, which involves topological physics or whatever.

[James Fowler]

I think the government's conflicted right now. Our government and probably several others, I think they have advanced secret physics and knowledge and science. I agree with you that they have had probably since at least the end of World War II, and through that science and understanding have developed new technologies. And I think that disclosure from a government perspective is about the science being released and disclosed, not about the technology. So let me make it really simple. Let's say you're a Lockheed program manager who has a secret program with the government, and your secret program involves physics that are like nothing we have today that anybody knows about. You're doing really crazy things for national defense against our enemies and to defend our homeland with this. With this knowledge. And you're developing new sensors, you're developing new aircraft, you're developing new submarines. Whatever it is you're developing, you're doing it with a physics that nobody understands. Now, let's say you've been doing that for 20 years. You're at a good place in your career, you make a lot of money, you're happy, you're stable. But now the news and the public zeitgeist starts changing, and now there's agents of the government hunting for you because they think you're responsible for this UFO phenomena, UAP phenomena. They think that you somehow are using your advanced physics to do information operations warfare against American populace, so they're actively hunting for you. So now you just went from a patriot who loves his family, loves his country, and is very smart in developing technology or protecting technology and science to the boogeyman that has somebody hunting for them. And so that Lockheed engineer needs a pressure relief valve. Right? So I think we have reached the point where our government has decided that it needs to release knowledge about the advanced physics and advanced science, but at the same time needs to constrain that Lockheed engineer or scientist from revealing our national secrets and protecting our national defense. So I think our government's conflicted in that without saying it out loud, because by saying it, they're acknowledging that it's true. And no one has told me this, I've arrived at this position through years of discussions. No one has ever said like, hey, here's the case. I know nothing from the government. In fact, all I ever get from them is deer in the headlights and questions, answers.

[Jesse]

So much of this resonates with my own experience looking into this stuff.

[James Fowler]

So yeah, I think disclosure, frankly, is less about a UAP flying in the air and more about releasing the technology, the science. And how do you release the science? How does Skywatcher release the science? I'll tell you, we are a private company, privately funded. We have our own technology, we're developing our own technology. And as I stated in the beginning, we are rooted in and exist because of UAPs being exposed to us. Is that the government program, was the government, is the government program to expose us, Chinese, Russian, whatever technology to, to the layman. Right. With the right mindset so that they can produce science based on it, to basically do disclosure of how they're doing it.

[Jesse]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[James Fowler]

Yeah. Knowing that.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

You know, hey, as we observe propulsion technology or telemetry technology or whatever, we're observing that even if we understand how they're doing it, we're still 60 to 90 years behind them. Right.

[Jesse]

That is mind fucking, excuse my French. But like the idea that that's their soft disclosure of secret science is us through, you know, civilian efforts, like what you're doing, private efforts, detecting what they're doing and then working back from first principles on how to build it and maybe even building things that are emergently adjacent or new compared to what they've done over the last 60 or 70 years, which they can't admit to or own up to. That is fascinating. Yeah, that's Very interesting.

[James Fowler]

And that's what I believe is happening. I believe that's our role. I believe that's why when I was with the government, they gave me no answers.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fowler]

They just want to see, hey, what are these guys going to come up with?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

When they poke us, the bear or whoever it is. And like I said, there's different categories. I think there's blue, I think there's red, and I think there's other.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And I have an idea of which class is which, but I don't want to share that.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fowler]

But I believe that there is a mixed bag of what we're seeing.

[Jesse]

Why do you feel like it's premature to share that or why I want.

[James Fowler]

The government to have the chance to stop me before I reveal.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

Secrets.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Fowler]

So that's frankly why we're holding back.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

It's not because we don't have the data or the knowledge. It's because we want to do this responsibly.

[Jesse]

Sure. Yeah.

[James Fowler]

So. So again, disclosure is going to be more about, you know, we are making observations right now. We made observations in. In March and in February that revealed to us the technology in play. And what that means is I sat with a physicist from a certain field looking over my shoulder while I went frame by frame on one of the UAP classes that we have not revealed yet. And that physicist was able to say, wow, that's the technology being used. That is how their propulsion works.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[James Fowler]

This is what the shape of the craft means.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Right. So no longer are we. Oh, it's magic. Okay. I can't replicate that technology. I don't understand how they're doing that in that kind of form, factor in that size and scale. But no longer do I have to say, I don't know how they're cloaking. No longer do I have to say, I don't know how they're propulsing right now. We can understand, okay. This is why we can't see them sometimes, because perhaps they're using what we have observed. So those observations tell us something, but it doesn't give me the science and the tools to go make it and do it myself.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fowler]

So that is one of the things we were doing at Skywatcher.

[Jesse]

That's still fascinating, though. I mean, can you say anything about what that scientist said about that?

[James Fowler]

No, I have to leave that. Have to leave that. Let that go for a while.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

But it's important to understand that part of Sky Watcher is an applied physics. Applied science, if you will. Where you're working to understand the technology behind what we are seeing. And really actually said that wrong. We're actually working to understand the science behind what we're seeing so we can understand the technology. And again, let's say that that is a made in America thing and that, you know, some agency flew that through specifically because of what we're reporting we're seeing so that we can release maybe to the world eventually the science behind it so that innovation can be made to move us forward as safely as we can and responsibly as we can. Is that the quest here to pressure relief that project manager Lockheed, the mythical project manager Lockheed that I don't know exists to pressure relief them and turn them from the boogeyman into they can keep all their technology secrets, all their advancements, while we understand the science. And like I said, We're 60 years behind.

[Jesse]

Totally. Well, something else I hope happens is I've talked to a couple of those aerospace Graybeard types and you never know what they've discovered, but you can sense that some of them are higher conviction on certain frameworks that aren't publicly acknowledged. And what I sense sometimes is that there's a feeling of wow, I feel high conviction in some of these things. I wish they were used more broadly in civil side architecture. And maybe we had this kind of regressive Cold War mindset which doesn't even make sense now with some of these frameworks. Because if China and Russia are not at parity, I will say publicly, and I'm sure fans will get pissed at me, that we shouldn't disclose something that is extremely dual use and could confer some really big warfare tactical advantage, obviously. But if they are at parity and if there are ways to implement some of this stuff civil side, and we don't have to send civil side science off into this kind of cul de sac of like not being productive because of bad frameworks. It would be great to get some of this stuff out. And I also see those gray beards at times being like, I wish I could work more for humanity too. So I don't know if you've experienced that or.

[James Fowler]

So yes, that is, you know, we do have a certain level of look, we'd like to help humanity, help our country. We're very patriotic and we're very open about what we're trying to do, which is develop technology for national defense. And also at the same time, if through the science we can discover new technology, we're all about proliferating that that's Responsibly. That's what we want to do. I think our government is constrained. The skies are not classified and we are seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. There's a very specific time of day when we observe UAPs. They're not there the other times of day.

[Jesse]

Can you say what time?

[James Fowler]

I'll skip that for now.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

But the point there is we can be on the ground looking up at the UAPs with a camera ball and see them when we see them on radar. Right. So we have three spectrums that we're seeing them on with imagery and we see them on radar. So that's four different methods that we're tracking them with. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them. I've chased probably about 15 UAPs now in the last 60 days.

[Jesse]

I wanted to ask you about this.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, so. So when we chase them, we have never seen a UAP from the air.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[James Fowler]

Right now air to air intercepts are hard to do. I was not a PJ or F16 pilot or anything. Air force. So you know, army. Right. So like I have zero experience playing tetchup. I know skydiving and military free fall operations, but I've never. Yeah, I've never been in an aircraft with a motor trying to chase another aircraft.

[Jesse]

We have Jake on your team. Yeah, that's good.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, he's a really good pilot. Right?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

So. So we've chased about 15 UAPs. And they evade us. Right. But they evade us because the ground can see them evading from the air. We've never laid eyes on them. Right. We're sitting there with binoculars, with s. Where cameras. We're sitting there.

[Jesse]

Why do you think that is?

[James Fowler]

I think that they have a method to be cloaked from the air, and that method does not extend to the ground. Right. And. And it's important to understand. Okay, so we're seeing UAPs.

[Jesse]

How would you even do that? So wild.

[James Fowler]

It is wild. Right. We are seeing UAPs in commercial airspace, right. At the same flight levels that commercial aviation is flying at, that you cannot see from the air. So understand, if we're in El Paso working and we see a uap, you know, and I'm looking north, and in El Paso, if you look north, actually from where we're at in Sierra Blanca and the last place we were using, when we look north, all we see are airliners transiting, because everyone transits the border right there by El Paso, just north. So in the same airspace, we're seeing UAPs. All right, so UAPs that the pilots cannot see. And I know they can't see them because I've been probably about 200 meters from a Class 8 and the team's like, look out your left window. The UAP is right there. And me and the pilot and, and, and, and one of my colleagues is sitting there looking, scanning every sector. Then you can't see it as there's nothing there.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[James Fowler]

Is it.

[Jesse]

Do you think any. Are you picking it up from the ground with normal optical sensors, with cameras or with kind of more exotic stuff or what?

[James Fowler]

So it's the ones I described.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fowler]

The radar and the three bands we should go through.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So you have radar, infrared.

[James Fowler]

So you have shortwave infrared, shortwave infrared, medium wave infrared, and electro optical. Electro optical can see a little bit more than the human eye. Gotcha. And I believe that the reason why the electro optical can see them. Yeah, it cannot. Is because that little bit of extra is where they're actually emitting light. And in. Interesting.

[Jesse]

Where is it? So the human eye, I think is 400 and 700 nanometers is the range. So where would this be on the.

[James Fowler]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

The electro optical would be like.

[James Fowler]

We haven't figured that out yet. We haven't figured out where on the spectrum they're visible. Like I said, we're in operation. Growing to the science.

[Jesse]

Okay, okay.

[James Fowler]

So what is dedication?

[Jesse]

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we work together. We did a good job. That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[James Fowler]

And I would even offer to jump ahead a little bit in the class sevens.

[Jesse]

Yeah. For it'd probably be like 350 to 750. It's probably within the.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, it's probably somewhere like that. But the class sevens, for years I thought we thought were black bodied objects that emitted a purple and pink vapor of some kind or reflection with white tentacles. Jellyfish.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

Right. Recently in February, we saw class sevens with the naked eye. I saw one with the naked eye. It looked like a golden chrome looking mirror that was highly reflective with white tentacles. Then we picked up binoculars and Got high magnification scopes on them and they looked bright white, but reflective. So under each observation method, we get a different return on what we're seeing. It's not consistent. Right. So it's not a black body, I don't think. I think it's white like the Tic Tac and like the egg and like other things that are out there. But that tells you the hard problem we have here. We're trying to detect a craft that isn't consistent across bands. Right. And it's very hard to image at the same distances we are seeing these. If we see a drone, which again, we started this with drones, or a bird, we see lots of birds, or balloons, we've released balloons too, or aircraft at the same distances. We'd be able to distinguish flight control surfaces, engines, exhaust, and we're not picking that up with the UAPs. So we have a team sitting outside of the talk when we're running these operations with scopes and cameras. And they might catch a snippet for like two seconds of a uap. But that's really all they're able to, to see. Unless, because UAPs typically are 5 kilometers minimum away sometimes, you know, approximately 10,000ft above ground level. Right. Whatever that is, in meters. So they're not nearby. Right. And often when we do see them, or when we did see them with the naked eye in the few times we have, they're very reflective. So actually using the sun's glint to spot them is one of the methods we use and should help us indicate that maybe we can't see them in the naked eye. Maybe all the naked eye sees are reflections.

[Jesse]

Oh, that's so fascinating, so interesting. Makes me think of this Carl Sagan thing where he's talking about like you're seeing a shadow of the thing, you're not seeing the thing itself. I think it's like a Platonic solid he's using like a tesseract example. Example. And you know, that's just. And they're like, you know, there are. This comes up and it's very theoretical, but like holographic theories or principles. Grush even mentioned it in his congressional testimony. The framework that I'm familiar with, for example, is something called the holographic principle.

[James Fowler]

Both it's. It derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics. And that is if you want to.

[Jesse]

Imagine a 3D object such as yourself.

[James Fowler]

Casting a shadow onto a 2D surface.

[Jesse]

That'S the holographic principle.

[James Fowler]

So you can be projected, quasi projected.

[Jesse]

From higher dimensional space to lower dimensional It's a scientific trope that you can actually cross, literally, as far as I understand.

[James Fowler]

But there's probably guys with PhDs and.

[Jesse]

We could probably argue about that. Class three, what are we looking at?

[James Fowler]

Class threes to block.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

So it's I describe as Pepto Bismol colored cloud.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And in the center of the cloud is like a filament that looks golden, almost like a flame. Looks like it's a cylinder, maybe has corners, really hard to tell. And this object, like the Class 1 and the Class 2 does fly in a stable trajectory, but while it's flying in that trajectory, it's vibrating vertically and horizontally very fast. So it moves from point to point instantaneously as it moves along a stable trajectory. And when I say stable trajectory, maybe its flight path is 80 knots. Right. But on imagery and on radar, it is bouncing all over in a, perhaps like a, like a tube, almost. Almost like it's in a subway. And you took like the Tasmanian Devil and threw him the subway and said, go downtown. He's going to bounce all over the subway while he moves down that, that tubular tunne. That's kind of what we're seeing in the sky. Right. So as the Tasmanian Devil bounces all over the tunnel, he's still moving at a certain speed, but point to point, he's all over the map, but within a constrained area. So the Class 3, we've never seen one up close. We don't know why it vibrates and how it's vibrating, but for sure it is vibrating because we have it on imagery and on radar showing it vibrating. And that does meet the threshold of several of the five characteristics or maybe six characteristics of UAPs, in that it's instantaneous movement from point to point. That again, there's no contrail, there's no visible propulsion, it's just moving, you know, and we've had to ask ourselves, and it's still a theory, is, is everything in the sky, you know, a holographic projection? Is this all just, just the government or a government messing with our heads, making us think we're seeing something. And all it is is plasmoids from space based lasers making shapes and they're bouncing them across the sky to throw us off or make us think a thing. I accept that that could be a possibility because what we're looking at with the Class 3 defies any known physics, any known logic of how it's maneuvering. So is it really there? Is it, like I said, a plasmoid with lasers or is there Actually a physical craft there moving across the sky.

[Jesse]

They'd have to be. If the government were doing that. They'd have to know where you guys are and then like be trying to spoof you or something, which I guess is possible, but you know, I don't know. That's. That's fascinating. Do any of these classes, are they attributed more to the psionic assets calling them in versus the machine based? Like is, is it like the case? I'm just an example. The jellyfish only shows up with the machine based thing or the psionic asset only attracts this particular class. Can you do those sort of attributions? Do you have data against that?

[James Fowler]

So we have four and a half years of data with no psionics involved at all.

[Jesse]

Wow. Right, okay, so that was all machine based.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah. When we were running these government events, nobody there was doing anything psionic and if they did, they wouldn't have the clearance and they couldn't be there anyway. Right. Like the government probably wouldn't allow them to be present and I probably wouldn't have hired them onto my team to come help run the event if they were doing those things. So no, four and a half years has no psionics whatsoever. We have eight classes with that. That said, once we started doing this, in a very open mindset of. Well, I'm not a believer, I'm completely open. Like, I've described several obscure theories that could hold true. Whether it's a holographic projection, whether it's off planet, on planet, all these different theories we have to like, I don't have to believe all of them, but I have to accept that they could be true. You have to be completely open minded here to include on the psionic side. And what I would offer is on the psionic side. I have had personal observations of things that the psionic team has done that appear to validate that their methods work. One example is in August, one of our principal psionic assets, Jordan, apparently called in a craft. And it could be an egg, I don't know what it is. And he's wearing a covering on his face. He's under a patio. He came and see the sky, or I'm looking now looking at him and he's having these experiences. And then Fred Baker was out on the back patio watching the sky while he hears Jordan freaking out down there on the, beneath the porch down there. And. And Fred independently is like, oh, there it is. Because Jordan said where to look in the sky. And Fred looked and saw an object. Well, and videoed it. We didn't have the. All of our equipment. It's very expensive to procure. So we had rudimentary equipment at that event and well, we caught rudimentary observations. Right. So. But Jordan called it out, literally said, this is where it's at in the sky. This is what's happening here. It is. And there's some other things to go with that. But point being. Okay, how does that. How do you reconcile that? You reconcile the entire event?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Right. Fast forward to February. Well, we ran an event in January without, with the equipment, with no dog whistle. We got zero results. So we have run events 24 hours a day. We've run events without the dog whistle, but the same technology and play and we don't get UAPS during those times. It's only a very narrow part of the day. So in February, up till February, I'd never seen a UAP with a naked eye. Ever.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Wow.

[James Fowler]

Wow. In five years of doing it, it was always through. Through a sensor.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

In February, we actually had the. For. For the first time, the dog whistle paired with psionic assets. And while we can't say definitively that the psionic assets were responsible for the results we got sure. For the first time, they approximated close enough to see them.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[James Fowler]

They'd never done that before. Now there's too many variables. Right. We have to repeat this ad nauseam until we can say with. With some kind of scientific rigor that cause an effect or correlation.

[Jesse]

Causation.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah. We also introduced more chaos. For four and a half years, we had no helicopter, I had no Jake Barber, I had nobody to fly me up and go look. And part of our frustration with the government was we were underfunded when we were funded by the government for these events. And even when we were funded explicitly by certain parties to go look at UAPs, we were still underfunded there. So we didn't have the capacity to go get a helicopter or find Jake and. And go fly up to them. And because we're not skinwalker ranch, we are mobile, we are nomadic, and our end state is that we would like to make contact with or retrieve some of this material. Right. So you're not going to do that by standing on the ground, watching it and being static. Right. So we want to fly to them and observe them. So we introduced a helicopter activity and that introduced more chaos into the event. Right. So there's too many variables to understand cause and effect with that many variables being changed.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

Right. So.

[Jesse]

And one time when you were up In a helicopter. The helicopter was sort of frozen, like it couldn't continue on. Is that, is that right? We sent the helo out to intercept the Tic Tac, but the first attempt failed because our radar was being jammed by the Class 7 jellyfish.

[James Fowler]

Where did it, where were we in the sky. The first time you saw that? That was when we were 7km or so out to the northwest 340 at the spot that we went to.

[Jesse]

And he kept trying to climb and we just, it wouldn't let us.

[James Fowler]

Our helicopter launched and about a half mile out the helicopter stopped moving. Engine's running, blades are turning, but it.

[Jesse]

Would not go forward, it would not.

[James Fowler]

Go up, it would not go left or right.

[Jesse]

It was stuck there.

[James Fowler]

So we've had several interactions with UAPs in the air. First, the, the most prominent UAP we see are the jellyfish, the Class 7. When we chase them, they evade us. We have on video us flying towards the class 7 and it changing his flight path, going into the wind, going perpendicular wind and then elevating away from us. You know, we're moving at 80 plus knots and a little bird and, and watching the Class Sevens with video and with radar, we know it's airspeed and maybe it's 30 or 40 knots. We should be able to air, air to air intercept that all day long. But they consistently outrun us and escape us. So we've had that interaction then. Yes, with a Tic Tac. I'll talk through kind of what happened with the Tic Tac because it's actually very interesting. We had observed the Class Sevens fly through our radar beam and approximate our team repeatedly over four or five days. I believe it was four days. The, on the fourth day, the Class 7, it was actually very interesting. We had nobody up on the hill outside of the talk. It was a barren hilltop. The helicopter wasn't there. On the fourth day, the Class 7 came and hovered over us for about five minutes. Now that's never happened before. And it hovered at about 800 meters over us so we could see it with the naked eye for the first time. As soon as we started coming outside the talk to look at it and grabbing other cameras to try and image it, it started moving away. Now Understand the Class 7 has some kind of inherent, apparently inherent microwave energy that it's emitting. And that energy interferes with our cabling between our systems, we believe. So we've noticed an effect that when the Class 7 is present, we lose connection to our sensors, the high end sensors that were removed into so our primary sensor didn't collect on that class seven while it was in hover or over us. Once it departed the area, our sensors turned back on and we were able to actually image it. And I would offer, we've never had that happen before, ever. We never had one approximate, and we never had our sensors go down. So we have all, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera gear inside the talk, right? And so here's the team scrambling. Like, our primary sensor just quit working. And now we're like, all right, let's grab the cameras and go image it. So everyone's in a hurry trying to do that, and poor Rory is out there just shooting all these videos and taking photos like, oh, this is amazing, and talking through it. And then we look at the camera, and there's no SD card in it. And we realized, because there were our secondary systems, like, we'd never seen one with these cameras, right. They were there for emergency use, and we hadn't prepped them. Right. Sometimes through those errors, you know, they're costly. But you learn right now we are prepared for our secondary systems to become primary in case they approximate again. But we had to learn that the hard way, right? So we've seen the Class Sevens fly through our airspace routinely and probe, apparently our active systems, our emanating systems, and so on. Each day, it seemed to get more, I would say, aggressive, but I don't know that it's aggressive. It just got more interesting. So maybe the first day it flies over, over top of what our radar bubble should be. Then maybe the next day it flies over top, maybe a little bit lower, and then deviates. Maybe it's coming from the west, and it heads north. And then. And then later in the day, it comes in from the west and head south, as in is measuring our radar beam in a radar field. So that's the impression we got. And then for the first time in February, we saw two jellyfish fly together in the radar, and they offset from us equally, so 6km north and south of us, and they flew right past us, right? So we're like, well, that's pretty cool. I've never seen them in pairs before.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And they're obviously interested in us in the middle, and they're putting themselves in beam of our systems.

[Jesse]

So then, do they resemble the jellyfish that Jeremy Corbell revealed a couple years ago?

[James Fowler]

No, not different. Not to us. That looks like a shriveled up version of what we have. Right. I would say, you know, our. Our jellyfish are about 2 to 3 meters across on the head. Yeah, I think they look like an aspirin pill. Yeah, I don't know. And the tentacles are about 5 meters long.

[Jesse]

And I think the tentacles in your case, if I'm visualizing it correctly, are a little more dynamically moving than the, if you look at the Jeremy Corbell thing, it's, I think it's thermal imaging and they look like kind of stuck together and like they're not like the, the, they're not moving the tentacles.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so, yeah, the tentacles seem to flow a little bit more and that's actually gets into like, I hate the word debunk, Debunker, debunking because it starts with a premise of we're going to prove you're a liar or prove you're are. You are incorrect. Instead of I'm going to consume what you're saying, I'm going to make a fair and unbiased estimation of the validity of that information and then release those results. So debunking to me is a adversarial relationship, you know, And I think that there are paid debunkers out there who are too quick to come in and body slam and present falsehoods because they don't know the whole story. And they're assuming they do. And they're assuming some kind of mal. Intent on our side of, hey, these guys must be liars. These guys are some kind of secret government program. None of it makes any sense at the end of the day. But the jellyfish. What's very interesting is if you take a balloon and release it into the wind and watch it, which we have done, the string will dangle below the balloon. And why is that? Because the balloon relative to the wind is blowing in the wind. You might get some oscillation of some turbulence or some different winds at different levels as it transitions through those winds. But for the most part, you're going to look at a balloon and you're going to see basically like a lollipop, right? A straight line coming down from the strings. If you take a helicopter and you conduct operations like Jake does with a long line and you put that long line under a weight and you lift it up and start flying 60, 80, 100 knots, right? The long line with load is going to be maybe a 45 degree angle off the bottom of the helicopters, maybe straight because it's under, it's under load, but it's blowing back from the relative wind, pushing it back. If you, if you take that same helicopter and Release the payload from it, but keep the long line and then fly into the wind. Something very interesting happens, actually. The long line actually forms a U shape and the U is in the direction of travel. And that's because of the air pressure on that long line builds up in the middle of it. The surface area becomes under enough pressure that actually bends the line in the direction of flight so that as you're flying into the wind, it's like a U or a sea flying. Like a Pac man flying into the wind. Right. What's interesting about the class sevens is we've released images of them with the tentacles sometimes being straight, and then the same craft when we know it's flying perpendicular to the wind in a swimming motion. The long line, the tentacles are actually in a Pac man, you know, shape, indicating that it is flying into the wind or is flying faster than the wind. It's not floating with the wind. So as these debunkers try to come out with their theories, sometimes it's sad that they haven't done their basic analysis and research and they're, they're calling things balloons that, you know, maybe one day we'll find out it's a balloon, but it's not your run of the mill Mylar bought at Walmart. If it is balloon, it's a hybrid balloon that can lift, apparently, and maneuver against and perpendicular to the wind at will, and ascend and descend.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

So these are properties that normally balloons can't do. So am I saying it's not a balloon? No, but, but if it is a balloon, it has to be a hybrid.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

At least with our current understanding of physics.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

And there's something special about it, Right.

[Jesse]

Some secret physics balloon at least. Yeah. Minimum. Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

Proximity to it. It will say, don't come any higher because that was when I told you guys. Elevate. Right. That's fascinating. We were called out to intercept an object that was on. Found on radar. We went to the location it was supposed to be at. We circled a couple times and were requested to climb another thousand feet. The instrumentation started to bounce and the collective basically was frozen.

[Jesse]

And so you tried to. You, you guys flew up and it was class seven, Right. That you were chasing with the helicopter. And then there was. It was like this, it was really interesting in this last video you guys released, there was like this almost like barrier you couldn't get beyond or something.

[James Fowler]

No. So. So to get back to the story, so we had class sevens on the fourth day. One hovered over us and we went to Bed that night thinking, what's going to happen next? Like, what happens? Like, okay, so they've done everything that you could do to indicate we're interested in you. They've flown in beam. They must know whoever's OPER so we can see them. They must know that we're on the hill looking at them like, for sure. They must know when we fly helicopter towards them, they evade it. So they know that there's some kind of action force in the vicinity of them. Right. Some kind of action element us. So on the fifth day, I went to bed thinking, what's more aggressive? Is it going to come down and land? Is it going to blow us up? Is it going to hit us with energy? Is it going to send us a text message? What's going to happen with this? Repeat, that's more aggressive than what it did so far. What should we expect? And so that night, Jordan, our psionic lead, if you will, came up to me and Alex like, hey, tomorrow we're going to see a conflict in the sky. We're going to have different UAPs are going to come in, and there's going to be.

[Jesse]

He sensed that.

[James Fowler]

He said that. And he said to me and Alex, and I've since talked to Jordan, I said, jordan, never do that to me again. Ever. If you ever come up to me again, bring a damn camera with a date, time, group in the screen, record you telling us this prediction, and then mail it to somebody outside of our group so that there's proof that it transited to a third party because his prediction came true.

[Jesse]

Yeah, right.

[James Fowler]

Literally, that's what happened on the fifth day. We had jellyfish at a distance. We had extreme, I will just say, interference with our systems. Typically, we'd never seen jellyfish interfere with us in the last several years and up to this day, the four days preceding it, we had had mild interference with our systems disconnecting from the primary sensors when the jellyfish were in vicinity. But on the fifth day, the interference was constant for two hours. And because it's constant, we can't see the jellyfish. Our primary sensor does not. Doesn't connect. We can't use it. So we started looking to try and figure out what's going on. That's when we discovered the Class 2 Tic Tac and the manta ray in the sky hiding behind the terrain. That's right between us and the jellyfish.

[Jesse]

That's so fast.

[James Fowler]

Right. And what's really, really crazy here is there have been two instances of UAP reacting seemingly to our intent. So around 2003, we were running an event and we had the opportunity to bring for the government event, we brought an energy weapon with us. And so we had this energy weapon up on the hill and we're doing things with it for the government.

[Jesse]

Project Microwave.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, something like that.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fowler]

And we saw a Class 6 coming through our event. Right. And this was extracurricular in our own time. And somebody from another group was like, hey, let's aim that thing at that UAP and see what happens if we energize it. So we're like, sure, let's just see what happens. Right. So this person went to. To move. It was a. There was no electronic gimbal. It was like a manual antenna. You had to feed horn. He had to turn towards uap. So he's like, goes out there, a couple, you know, call it 60, 70ft from our operating area, goes out there and starts turning it towards it mid turn before he could actually turn it to the uap. And the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Whoa. Right. And that energy weapon turned our systems off. As in, off, as in blank screens.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[James Fowler]

It was working. And then it was in the off position.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And it happened to systems that were not connected to the same network and that were not used together. So I think there were three separate systems that turned off. All right. So did the UAP know that we were going to try to send energy towards it, High energy microwave towards it?

[Jesse]

Seems like it.

[James Fowler]

And did it react? I think so, yeah. It's never happened since because we've never tried that again.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And we can't try it now commercially because that's highly illegal. No one should do that in the United States. You should go to jail. Like that's not a laughing matter. The FCC will get you.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Or the FAA or whoever it is.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

You can't just go do that.

[Jesse]

Does that concern you at all? Just that that interaction, does that, does that make you think twice about. Because you hear rumors of directed energy being shot at uap and I always, I don't know, I feel, I feel conflicted about that. It feels like possibly dangerous, you know, territory. You guys are. You're mostly doing just psionic based or not psionic based stuff, but trying to get them to land or. Are you doing any of the shooting?

[James Fowler]

No, no. So sky watcher, as a team, we are not aggressive. We're not trying to go to war or have, you know, destroy American or Chinese or Russian equipment in the sky.

[Jesse]

And creating intergalactic battle.

[James Fowler]

Yeah. Or have it, have, have a war with nhi, whatever the hell it is. Like we're not trying to do that. I want that pain. We don't want that responsibility. Yeah, we are approaching this very scientifically and peacefully. And, and so those activities aren't activities that we want to do. And if those are done, the government can go do that. We have no interest in harming or destroying any of this material or craft or beings. Like that's not our interest at all. It's quite the opposite actually. And our desire is that one lands, and that is with a psionic team. What we're trying to do is get one to land peacefully. Right. You know, we don't need to harm or kill or maim or destroy. We want to observe, collect and understand. So that was the first time that we had UAPs react to our action or intentions. We believe the second time was with the Tic Tac in February. I saw a manta ray, was watching the manta ray and then it disappeared again. The manta ray and the Tic Tac were hiding from our primary sensor. They approached from the one avenue of approach. We couldn't see for miles and miles and they hid behind terrain and they used a terrain to mask their presence from our sensors that were being taken out anyway by the, we believe the jellyfish. So I sat there for probably 20 minutes and watched it. A manta ray in the sky. It looks kind of like a trash bag that never descends or just an amorphous shape that's rolling and tumbling constantly. But and, and then also a Tic Tac right next to it. So they're both in the sky kind of about the same place. About 800 meters elevation, about 800 meters away. We're watching them Manta Ray for about 20 and then the Tic Tac for about 5. So at this time we did have the helicopter up on the hill and we had a lot of security because again, this is day five of anomalous weird things happening that never happened before. So we are expecting something interesting. Jordan predicted it and it's happening as he said. So I'm like, hey, I want to get in the helicopter and go see the Tic Tac. Listen, let's go chase it. So like, what else, what other data can we can we get now? We can't get radar, we can't get the high end imagery because those systems are off. Right. They're not connectable. This is the day I told you where our secondary systems weren't ready to go. So we're Looking at them with binoculars and scopes and I'm like, well, let's go get more data. So I turned to run down the hill. It's about 200 meter run to get to the helicopter. I get 10 steps and the, the Tic Tac starts flying away. So it sat there for over 25, 30 minutes while we observed the manta ray and the Tic Tac. And then we watched, once that was gone, we watched only the Tic Tac. And then it just so happens that as I turn ready to run down the helicopter and on the radio, hey, start the helicopter up deliberately to go fly to it, that's when it decides to depart. So did it know that I was coming to it? Did it understand my intention to fly up to it and pay it a visit?

[Jesse]

Yeah, you know, that's amazing. Does that, does that when that or the, the energy weapon anecdote. Do you ever worry that it's just this crazy game of cat and mouse where the cat can mind read the mouse or whatever and you guys are the mouse, you know, trying to sense these things and it's like if they can show that level of kind of, you know, prediction of intent, you know, is it, will we ever get to, you know, clear resolution on these things?

[James Fowler]

Well, I don't know. Right. And honest answer, yeah, it's really hard to say. Like it is a cat and mouse game. It feels like, it does feel like how many times do you have to fly advanced technology in beam of a radar to know what it, how it works? Right? Like how many years do you have to do it in a row? Right? So like, clearly they are presenting as if they are measuring our capabilities and responses. But if there's an intelligent entity doing this, do they not understand already? So clearly, in my opinion, it's less about our technology and more about our reaction. Right. So they know we can see them. They know it because that week on the fifth day, we chased like seven or 10 UAPs before that. So it knew we were going to chase it. Right. It must have known whoever's controlling it knew we were going to chase it. The question is, why would they put themselves in beam and put themselves in that vulnerable, apparently a vulnerable position repeatedly. So as you get into the philosophical here, it's really hard to understand and see through. Okay, why are they putting themselves in this apparently vulnerable position? Right. To what end? You know, do they want us to fly to it? Do they want us to interact with it? I believe so. And are they aware of our intentions? I don't know, because our intentions have not always been pure. Right. Like I said, somebody aimed an energy weapon at one of these things.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[James Fowler]

And it took action.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Right. So is it, you know, how does that fit? I really wish we could sit and have a philosophical discussion with a philosopher and say like, let's walk the dog on each possibility.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Because there might be enough data to understand that.

[Jesse]

Do the psionic assets, are they able to overlay some of possible information? Like you see Jordan predicting, oh, the next day there's going to be a war in the sky. And it's accurate and. But to me that would, and I know some of his story and out of respect for him, I'll let him come out with that whenever. But does that make you think, oh, a lot of this stuff. He probably believes philosophically about this stuff might be right as well. It increases the probability that the psionic assets are probably correct about maybe other things. Do they have any sort of metaphysical worldview around this that is possibly informative or illustrative of what you're looking at or.

[James Fowler]

We haven't figured that out yet. Right. We purposefully maintain a separation from the psionic team.

[Jesse]

Oh, interesting. It's like a double blind or something.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, precisely. Like we're up on a hill with our system using the dog whistle. We are not telling the psionic team. We have tried this in the past, but typically we do not tell a psychic team there's something inbound. They have no idea what's happening up on the hill. They can't see it, they can't hear it. They don't know.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[James Fowler]

Right. And then we're documenting their call outs and their descriptions and their efforts. We've done that two or three events in a row. Probably morph that and change that under guidance of our science team. Just kind of understand, hey, if they know nothing and we don't really know what they're doing, which is also the case, then we can't really. We can't to our knowledge, make an effect and we can't pollute the other's minds with what's going to happen.

[Jesse]

Smart way to do it. Yeah, they must have. I mean, I've met a few of them and it seems like they have some pretty interesting backgrounds in past history where. And I think this is going to come out probably increasingly in the next year or two. There are these kind of gifted and talented education programs in the United States that recruited often children to be kind of, you know, high psi assets in various cases and probably for various use cases Maybe part of the remote viewing stuff that Hal put off and Russell Targ started, you know, back in the day. Stargate Grill Flame, all of this, that and then maybe some UAP related stuff as well. What do you, what do you think about their stories? Is that, do you think that that is a widespread program in the US where they're recruiting kind of these, these younger, younger people? So stranger things, is that a real, that a real show based on reality?

[James Fowler]

That's a really good question, man. Talking to some of these folks, their stories are very believable. Some of them have more than a story. They have data, they have documents, they have places and names and dates that go with their stories. So I'd offer that there's. That data supports their story to a degree. It doesn't prove or disprove anything psionic, but it does show a programmatic nature of something occurring. Now, is that programmatic nature due to their own condition or their own self, or is it due to a third party instituting something with them for a purpose? And I don't know there's enough data to know that yet. Perhaps somebody has compiled that data and can show that disparity or that proofs or actually not disparity but parity between the stories. To say like there is a systematic program. I would offer. A lot of times you have to lean on Occam's Razor. You have to go with like, are people really that evil? Is our government really that evil? Are they really that, that subversive of the American way? I think there can be limited cases like that, but I think they're limited. And I think when you look at this again through Occam's Razor, you have to lean on. No, probably not. And if there is, it's very, very rare or done with.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, I think, I think there is a there there. I think some of these programs did exist. And then it's hard for me to believe it was extremely widespread because we just have more of this stuff coming out. But we also, we did experime parapsychology. I do think you get into, you know, deeper levels of government or aerospace. And I do think people believe that the mind matter duality thing is not as simple as, you know, academia sort of presents it. Class four, what are we looking at there?

[James Fowler]

Class four is the orb. We've only seen that a couple of years in a row. When we did see the class four, we're doing certain activities for the government that we can't do commercially and we're only able to do them for a limited amount of time with the government. I can't describe those activities. I can just say that they were extraordinary and different. When we did those activities is when we noted the Class 4. We think it's about two, three years apart across. We've only seen it in the infrared, short waves and medium wave infrared. That could be due to atmospheric conditions, dust in the air or other reasons. We've never had them on radar that we know of. Again, we have a lot of data to call through and it's expensive and hard to analyze. We're working on that. So we relied on. Look, there's an object, it's below the cloud deck. It's not returning. A laser range finder return. It's moving against the wind. And what we observed was the two of them flew in together on either side of our valley and then camped for about four hours, three and a half hours, while actually class ones did something again, extraordinary and different. And then after the class ones were done, they flew out together. Right. So I don't think celestial bodies could represent like that or present like that. Excuse me, I don't think, you know, I don't know of any craft that are, that can, you know, we know the cloud deck wasn't that high that day. And in our estimation, any drone or helicopter would have been hearable and visible under those conditions. And these were right here in the sky, just, just above us, 45 degree angle off each horizon and elevated. And they moved in tandem. Right, as a pair. So again, that goes against like celestial bodies, that goes against any known technology. And so we believe that that is a class of uap. It could be another class that we've never seen do that activity before. But you know, we have limited data. Right. And we state as much.

[Jesse]

Which class did you add with the psionic assets which you just started working with? The egg.

[James Fowler]

The egg. The class nine.

[Jesse]

Okay, fascinating. Well, that dovetails with Jake's story where he said that he was when he retrieved the egg. And yeah, I think it was the mid 2000s on the range in California, there were some psionic assets present. Trying to call the thing in. So that's fascinating. Class five, what are we looking at?

[James Fowler]

Class five is the Manta Ray. It looks like a black body object that might have perhaps vents on top of it that emanate some kind of. I'll just call it plasma, not necessarily a plasma, although I do believe plasma is seen in conjunction with UAPs often. But we don't know that Right. So emanate something that looks like plasma. Ish. And it tumbles and rotates again, not too dissimilar from a balloon. But it does things that balloons don't do, like blink out of visibility or fly against the wind. It does other things.

[Jesse]

So.

[James Fowler]

We'Ve seen the Class 5 only twice, I guess three times now. So we have more observations recently in 2025. I think the last time we saw one was like 23, and we didn't know a whole lot about it. We have it on radar. We have it on all the bands of imagery. We don't have any sign for it. It's probably about two and a half meters in diameter. And it just seems to fly through. It doesn't really stop and smell the music.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Smell the roses. Excuse me. It doesn't really hang out. It just kind of moves through and. And then leaves.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Until the event with the Tic Tac, where it hovered in the sky.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So that was so fascinating. It almost sounds like the Manta and the Tic Tac were, like, allied against the jellyfish. Like there was this. There's definitely so interesting. Like War of the World or something. Okay, Class six, what are we looking at?

[James Fowler]

So the Class six is what we call the bright star. It vibrates a lot, and it does things to our equipment, whether it's shutting off our equipment or interferes in other ways with our equipment to modify what we think we're seeing.

[Jesse]

So there's some signature management.

[James Fowler]

There is absolutely some signature management with the Classics. So it doesn't like us to track. Doesn't like us to put eyes on it.

[Jesse]

We think that sounds like possibly human, but I don't know.

[James Fowler]

Like, all things are possible here. Yeah, but the Classics vibrates oscillates very fast. So fast that if you're looking at it under camera, you think you see three of them. One unit of measure of the craft to the left and to the right. Really, it's one vibrating. And you know that because it comes out of the. Out of the oscillation and stops. And then you see it's one craft, and then it'll turn back on. And it moves so fast that our system thinks it's a propeller. So when it. When it oscillates, it's a propeller. It thinks. Interprets it as. And then it'll stop oscillating and then just kind of keep. Continue flying. And then the radar will indicate that it's not a propeller anymore.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[James Fowler]

Right. So it does change brightness. It'll seem to like, get very energetic, much like the Class 3 blob does. It'll emanate more light as it vibrates really fast. And then when the light kind of dies down, it stops vibrating as fast until it stops vibrating completely. And then it'll go back almost like a cycle, almost like somebody starting a process. And that process, that chain continues until it's exhausted, and then it returns to its old state. That's kind of what the impression is of what we're seeing with the Class 6.

[Jesse]

Fascinating.

[James Fowler]

Class 8 is the Hornet. We've only seen a Class 8 a couple times.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[James Fowler]

Yep. Kind of like the Class 5. It's kind of elusive. We don't see it a whole bunch.

[Jesse]

Anything specific that you did around that time where the. The Hornet entered or.

[James Fowler]

No, but the Hornet was the last UAP I chased. Oh, in March.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And that was. You were telling me on the phone you got a little discombobulated or something.

[James Fowler]

No, that was actually the Tick.

[Jesse]

That was a Tic Tac story you told.

[James Fowler]

The Class 8 is the one we flew within about 200 meters and couldn't see it.

[Jesse]

Okay, and so what happened when you chased the hornet? Class 8?

[James Fowler]

It continued on its flight path, didn't deviate, didn't change, but we just couldn't see it and document it. Interesting. Right. So it just continued on a very slow. It was only moving like 20 knots. Whoa. Super, super slow. Antagonizing. So slow. We were just doing orbits, trying to like get in, you know, chasing in orbits, trying to get aligned to it so we could visualize as we went past it. We just couldn't wild. Couldn't ever see it.

[Jesse]

Class nine.

[James Fowler]

The class nine is the egg.

[Jesse]

That's the egg. So is this is so fascinating, is this the hope? Because I, you know, I spoke to Jake, I think it was in January, and we had a really interesting discussion. He said, he expressed, he exuded a lot of confidence. He said, in six months, we're going to get this thing to land.

[James Fowler]

If all things go well before. I'm trying not to say a date, but within the first half of 2025, we hope to do a demonstration and invite key members of the public from institutions and demonstrate this and maybe even get something to the ground. And that's going to answer a lot of questions.

[Jesse]

That would be absolutely insane. And I don't know, maybe that's a, you know, Elon Musk style timeline. That's a little aggressive or something. But is it. Can you guys get the egg to land? Is that presumably I would assume that's the hope. Because of his past experience. I look at some of these other classes and to me there's such a gap between like the, I don't know, the manta ray or Hornet or some of these things and like, you know, a concrete object like on the ground that you can like reverse engineer and fly. So is the hope the egg, and can you guys bring it down pretty quickly, you know, through peaceful psionic means, or.

[James Fowler]

I have no expectation.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[James Fowler]

I literally don't know.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Like, is the egg a real craft?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Is the thing we imaged with our rudimentary imaging system at the time even there? Right. If it is there, can Jordan or someone else control it? Right. If they can't control it, are they able to tell it to land and have it land? I would offer a known history. That has never happened. Right. And if it has happened, it's in a closed program that nobody knows about.

[Jesse]

Well. Well, according to Jake, it's happened.

[James Fowler]

Well, yes.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

So show me the money.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Right.

[James Fowler]

I'm open minded.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

I'm hopeful. I would love for that to happen. Yeah, that'd be perfect.

[Jesse]

That'd be wild.

[James Fowler]

Will it happen?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Will it happen in six months? I have no idea.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[James Fowler]

When? I like it too. Of course I would.

[Jesse]

Is, is that the one you're holding out hope for as far as some sort of retrieval of actual material, or are there others that you feel might be able to, you know, you might be able to derive material from or.

[James Fowler]

Any of these craft appear to have material and technology that we don't understand. So if any of them were to land or crash, that would be very interesting.

[Jesse]

I can say some could be non physical though. Some are some sort of plasma ball thing. Right.

[James Fowler]

I accept that could be the case.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Some of them might be holograms or plasmoids or things that if they land, there's molten, the fan turns to glass or metal or whatever.

[Jesse]

Right, Sure.

[James Fowler]

I don't know. Yeah, sure, why not? I believe we've seen four UAPs crash over the years.

[Jesse]

Really?

[James Fowler]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You've seen them crash?

[James Fowler]

We believe, and I say believe for a lot of reasons. We've seen three class ones when we were doing, you know, in 2023 when we did something special for the government, the UAPS behaved differently and we saw about 200 UAPs in a day over a four hour period. And they were all, almost all class ones at the time. And they were actually coming instead of just flying through our airspace, they're coming from Directly over us, as if from space. So they would come straight down ingress and then, and then they would egress out low level away from us. And they did it in ones and twos and threes at a time. We saw about 200 of them total. 200 sorties. The class ones that are doing that, that's different. Right. So as they were doing that, we saw three of them that instead of coming in in the low level egressing came in at an angle from directly overhead and just continued as if to the ground. And they went below the, the, the ridge lines and we never saw them come up.

[Jesse]

You go look for them.

[James Fowler]

Yeah. So it was actually really bad timing that year. We had really epic rainfall that afternoon after the show was over. It rained for like two days straight.

[Jesse]

Oh man.

[James Fowler]

I had to wait about a week. And then I took a whole crew for a hunt for a cartel drone that had crashed. And we were out there looking for probably six or eight hours. We found nothing. And again, what are we looking for? I'm looking for a glass crystal ball. I'm looking for a cube. Am I looking for carcass? Like what am I looking a tetrahedral? Like what am I looking for? No idea. And some of these deserts are extremely rugged. And at the time I didn't have a helicopter. And then in 2024, we saw a Class 8 that started 3,500 meters above us as it came through. And it's sortie.

[Jesse]

The Hornet. Yep.

[James Fowler]

And then finished it sortie just a couple hundred meters over the ground again, right at terrain level. So we went out this January and flew for probably two hours hour looking for anything again. What are we looking for? Don't know. Extremely rugged and difficult terrain. So we think we've seen them crash without us to our knowledge, doing anything to cause that. But we have yet to find any wreckage or find anything to show. Like there is something here.

[Jesse]

So fascinating. What do you think? Sorry I keep saying it so bad, but it is, it's just so interesting. Do you think that the government could be red teaming you guys at all? I mean, you know, you were in California, near Palmdale, and then you were also in Finley and Texas. And those are near, you know, pretty sensitive training facilities, test sites, that sort of thing. Do you think that any of the prime aerospace contractors are throwing stuff at you to kind of mess with your reconnaissance systems or mess with your detection systems or so I would offer.

[James Fowler]

My opinion is no. And the reason why is the craft we are seeing are conducting explicitly illegal operations of anti. They're invisible. There's no markers. They don't have ads. B, they don't have AIs. They don't have anything on board to show their presence. Also, they're flying adjacent to or in commercial air corridors.

[Jesse]

Right.

[James Fowler]

Where all commercial traffic flies. And they're flying at flight levels. We see them at flight level 180. We see them, I presume, higher than 180. We know higher, but we can't measure it because it's too high for a radar to reach. So whoever is doing this, if it is domestic, like they need to be, they need to, you know, get their affairs in order before they get caught. Because if it is domestic, then they're breaking the law, you know, feloniously.

[Jesse]

Would you have a say, a McWest? We just talked about debunkers, Mick west or somebody like that out on the range to try to stress test, you know, what you're doing thing.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, I think we're willing to work with certain people, frankly, personally, like, I have no time for debunkers.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Someone starts saying I want to debunk, I just kind of get angry. And we kind of want to like lash out. Like, like just be open minded, just listen, take off your lenses.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Of opinions and just open your mind and accept.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

Let us, let us give you share some knowledge so we can learn together. Should we, should we invite out a Mick west or whatever? Maybe that could happen.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

But frankly, like, I have no interest in him.

[Jesse]

But you would take a credentialed scientist out there who doesn't necessarily have a, you know, an a priori interest in UFOs?

[James Fowler]

Yeah, absolutely. Because understand the difference. One entity is hostile.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

And extremely opinionated and has a preconceived notion of what you're saying. And the other entity is open minded and willing to understand what you're saying before they formulate their opinion.

[Jesse]

For sure.

[James Fowler]

And so the one, the hostile one, like, again, I treat hostility with hostility. I have no desire to work with, talk, to interact or face with them because bad things will happen and it's bad for everybody. Right. So I'd rather focus on the people who actually are open minded, have the intelligence necessary to understand the problem, and aren't simpletons.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's your take on the Jersey drone situation? We were just talking about that before we started rolling and it still feels so frustratingly inconclusive. You have the White House saying that they were FAA research drones. After Trump, I think, told his special assistant, go look into this. And that was just such an unsatisfying answer for so many residents of Jersey. What do you think think was happening?

[James Fowler]

I think one of our adversaries has the ability to fly with impunity and operate in our airspace, and we are helpless to stop it.

[Jesse]

That's insane. That's really scary. And any reason to believe that, that you can discuss publicly?

[James Fowler]

I think that Langley Air Force Base, based on news articles, is probably done by China.

[Jesse]

And that was 17 days of just completely unperturbed incursion.

[James Fowler]

Yes, exactly. And I think that we know that the Hab, the balloon that flew through, was from China. So there's only one entity that has a past performance, to my knowledge, of flying in our airspace with apparent impunity with us not doing anything to stop it, and that's China. So why wouldn't you naturally arrive at a sustained intrusion in our airspace? Why wouldn't you assume as China until proven otherwise? If you have two explicit examples of very high likelihood being China or we know it's China. So the question we have to ask ourselves is, are the craft we're seeing Group 3 drones, are they UAPs operated by China? And. And what are the permutations thereof? Like, what does it mean if it is or isn't?

[Jesse]

Can they carry payloads if they're flying with exotic flight principles? I mean, that's a really scary possibility.

[James Fowler]

And what is the purpose if it is a China or Russia or whoever it is, to what end? Why would they do that to the American populace? Why would they continue when they know we're looking? Is it to show our incompetence? Is it to derail our national security apparatus and say, like, look how incompetent you are. We can do what we want. Is it.

[Jesse]

Because that's why I have trouble believing it's China.

[James Fowler]

Right.

[Jesse]

It's just so. I mean, what Flex.

[James Fowler]

Right.

[Jesse]

Like, if you're doing that over residential neighborhoods in Jersey, that's kind of an act of war. That's serious.

[James Fowler]

I think that's why our government's constrained. Right. Because on the one hand, our government, whose job is to protect the nation, can't come out and be incompetent.

[Jesse]

No.

[James Fowler]

Like, it cannot be done.

[Jesse]

Totally.

[James Fowler]

They have to be able to protect us. I think in the 60 minutes article or episode they did on this.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

They spoke with the NORAD commander, and he said something that was very telling. He said that we have allowed technology, the threat, to grow. We don't have technology to match. Something along those lines, basically meaning that maybe Whoever is doing this has a capability that we have not grown defensive technology enough to counter.

[Jesse]

It's freaky. Well, then you have the Trump statement at the time where he goes, biden knows. They know what this is. It's coming from a garage. It's very strange. We know where the garage is. And that makes me think nhi, our.

[James Fowler]

Military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. I can't imagine it's the enemy because if it was the enemy, they'd blast it out. Even if they were late, they'd blast it. Something strange is going on. For some reason, they don't want to tell the people, and they should.

[Jesse]

And then you had that, I think, sheriff, the local sheriff in New Jersey saying that he thought he saw them come out of the water. And, you know, trans medium is this, you know, important, observable of UAPs. And, you know, there are rumors of underwater bases and that sort of thing. So that made me think maybe nhi, but it's. I mean, it's also. I would talk about this with Jake. It could be a mix. You know, you could use the presence of nhi, UAP, to opportunistically flood the zone and then it's extremely hard to figure out what's what.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, I think so. I'm open to all concepts here. I personally, my opinion is that it's probably just area. It's probably China.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

But there's so many unknowns. How do you figure it out and tell the tale?

[Jesse]

I hope at the highest level we've figured it out. Whether it's adversary or nhi. I hope somebody knows because.

[James Fowler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hope they do too. I like to have faith in my government and believe that they are doing the right thing. I know I was in the government for a long time. I know a lot of government officials, generally very, very good people, patriots who love their country and want nothing but the best for all of us. So I hope, I really hope that they do have this figured out and that they have a capability and that we can rest easy and not worry about it. But there's the potential that some of that might not be the case, that maybe they haven't figured it out in.

[Jesse]

Five years from today. Do you have any hopes, dreams, expectations for Skywatcher?

[James Fowler]

Yeah, I would like to have Skywatcher as part of the Golden Dome. I would like to be proactive on the UAP problem. We have a technology to detect UAPs. We're growing that technology. That technology should be everywhere. Not because I'm a capitalist and want to make a lot of money. Of course most people want to make money and be independently wealthy. But for the national security implications of here's a phenomena, here's a thing on our airspace moving with impunity through our air corridors and nobody knows anything about it. So if we deploy the right sensors in the right mix, we can become masters over airspace and become air aware, if you will, of what's going on. So that's why we started Skywatcher. That's why we're developing the technology. And in five years it'd be wonderful if it's deployed. And then now we can have a body of knowledge and data on this phenomena, on this threat, on this instance of what's occurring and be able to make educated decisions at that point.

[Jesse]

Have you seen the movie Arrival?

[James Fowler]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Do you ever think like, you know, a lot of what you guys are doing is, you know, kind of initiating contact in some ways and, and is it worth getting a symbologist on staff or some cultural anthropologist or something? Or is it worth thinking about how if we are interacting with them eventually in a more intimate way than just sensors making sure that those first interactions are friendly and good to the extent that might dictate future relationships?

[James Fowler]

I mean, possibly.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[James Fowler]

I mean, I don't think the Sky Watcher team is first contact. Right. If the, if our government sure has been interacting with these things for decades, that's first contact. We're second, third or 90th. Right in the, we're just the first public.

[Jesse]

Well, you hear rumors around that stuff where it's like, I don't know, I have no idea how much weight to put in this, but it's like the aliens are, or the NHI are coming back for their stuff and they're not happy that, you know, the way the government has interacted with the material and that sort of thing, it's, you know, to weaponize this stuff and it's not to create, you know, civil side propulsion or whatever. And that could totally be a bunch of mushy brained, woo woo UFO people, you know, just saying, you know, of which I can be one sometimes or whatever, you know, just engaging wishful thinking. But yeah. Do you lend any credence to any of that stuff or.

[James Fowler]

I think there's a lot of smoke. I don't know where the fire is at. It's really, really hard to see through. Again, I said before that I think that there are elements of our government and other governments who are using information operations warfare on this topic. I don't know their motives, I don't know to what end, but I think it's in our face that that's happening. Look at the second episode and look at Reddit and how it blew up with all these apparent bots talking a lot of negative trash about Skywatcher and balloons. Like, somebody paid money for that? Like, is Mick west working for somebody? Is somebody paying him money?

[Jesse]

Good question.

[James Fowler]

Are these paid actors? Are those paid actors employing different technology to subvert knowledge or modify knowledge? Right. And to what end? So I do think that there's evidence there that evidence could be studied. Again, that costs money to do it costs a lot of money to go and research a bunch of Reddit users and show it's a botnet and, like, it's doable, it's just expensive, right?

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[James Fowler]

So. But it's my belief that those things are happening. Maybe it's not America, maybe it's our adversaries who are controlling some of those messages for their own motives and means, but as a civilian, it's really hard to say why, but the what I think is fairly obvious that that is happening.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. James Fowler, this is an honor, man. I appreciate your time. This is fascinating, and I'm. I'm curious to see where all of your efforts go.

[James Fowler]

Thanks, Jesse.

[Jesse]

Awesome.

[James Fowler]

Appreciate me.

[Jesse]

All right.

[James Fowler]

It.