← American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
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- [00:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You have to take seriously this claim on the part of the Nazi leadership that they wanted a thousand year Reich. A thousand year imperium is no joke. Perhaps the best known abduction of all and one of the earliest reported is the abduction of a well respected New England couple, Betty and Barney Hill. Look back at Barney Hill's original statements. The evil face.
- [00:35]
Jesse
Evil.
- [00:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
They're in the Nazi. Mankind has been seeking knowledge. Allen Dulles and his brother John Foster dulles together with JPMorgan Chase and Rockefeller funded the rise of the Nazis.
- [00:48]
Jesse
Is the implication that there's some sort of Nazi sleeper cell thunder girding American politics today?
- [00:59]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So World War II is not what we think it is. They were seeing these rocket like things that were saucer shaped being launched from Spain, the Mediterranean coast over toward America. Really one year later, what happens Roswell.
- [01:13]
Jesse
I mean is the idea that there is some sort of like Atlantean surviving remnant group that's still there.
- [01:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So for all we know what's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is contacting itself in the.
- [01:26]
Jesse
Past, trying to pull the timeline towards.
- [01:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Itself or something to actualize itself, trans temporally actualize itself. Different parts of the brain have different activities.
- [01:42]
Jesse
But you know that, don't you?
- [01:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
People that you do a lot. Maybe you should interview me.
- [01:57]
Jesse
Jason Reza Giorgiani, back by popular demand. Thank you so much for coming on. And you know, we just launched an episode and people are absolutely loving it. So check that out, part one. But there's so many other threads I wanted to get into and I left that conversation thinking that there was a lot that was left kind of unsaid and we could have gone on for hours. So I'm very excited to do this. You're one of the few thinkers I know who doesn't just sort of know a bunch of random disparate facts around the phenomenon, but tries to piece them together into some sort of coherent worldview, which is kind of a Herculean task. But you're attempting to do that. And I can't think of too many other. I mean Jacques Fillet might be another one, but there aren't too many thinkers trying to do that. So this is very cool.
- [02:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Thank you. You know, that made me think of something that actually would probably be a good preface to this conversation because I think that one of the most significant crises that we face in our civilization and in the world at large is the decline of philosophy. The reduction of philosophy to academic scholasticism and logic chopping and the lack of deep, serious broad spectrum thinking. That would be capable of, for example, tackling the close encounter phenomenon.
- [03:31]
Jesse
Right.
- [03:32]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I mean, obviously it should be philosophers who are engaging both with the data of close encounters and parapsychological data. In fact, you know, there were people in philosophy who played a fundamental role in development of parapsychology at its outset. Both William James and Henri Bergson were among the founding parapsychologists in the era of psychical research.
- [03:58]
Jesse
In fact, William James was the president of the Society for Psychical research in the 1870s.
- [04:04]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So he was, and Bergson was as well later on.
- [04:07]
Jesse
I didn't know that.
- [04:07]
Jason Reza Jorjani
The 1910s or something like that.
- [04:09]
Jesse
There you go. And this is a time when parapsychology wasn't relegated to quacky circles and, you know, New Age conferences. Bergson was, was debating Einstein at the time, and so he was considered a worthy debate partner for Einstein, who himself wasn't, you know, fully accepted by mainstream science, but was very well respected.
- [04:32]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And James had predicted in the era when he was the president of the Society for Psychical Research that this would be the next great scientific revolution. Right. What I in my writings have called the spectral revolution. And it didn't happen. And you know, in my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, I ventured a, you know, a basically theory of why it didn't happen. And that's because of the extremely serious psychological and sociological implications of mainstream acceptance of things like telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, and so forth. And so, you know, it's not only essential for philosophers to engage with the ontological and epistemological questions inherent in parapsychological data or close encounter phenomena, but also the ethical and political ramifications. And this brings me to what I wanted to say in response to your opening, which is that I've made an argument now in several of my books that it's definitional to the type of the philosopher to develop concepts that cut across all of the major domains of philosophy, from ontology and epistemology to then an ethics and a politics that follow from that ontological and epistemic thinking. And then also, I think aesthetics is very important. From the time of Plato onward, there's been this idea that the cultivation of aesthetic discernment and the capacity to perceive the beautiful or the sublime is also another pathway to knowledge and perhaps to a kind of knowledge that transcends or undergirds reductive rationality.
- [06:25]
Jesse
Right.
- [06:26]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And in particular, I think that aesthetic judgment is very closely connected to ethics. And it's something that is, you know, Nietzsche Understood? Frederick Nietzsche understood very well.
- [06:35]
Jesse
Yeah, he says, I think there's some quote, I'm going to butcher it, but it's like life is only eternally justified in its aesthetic form or something. And he, yeah, he fully believed that.
- [06:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And Nietzsche wasn't alone. I mean, look, if you. I mean, Kant is well known for being a very principled, hyper rational advocate of this crystalline universal ethics. But if you ask me, Kant's most interesting work is his aesthetic work. And it's in his aesthetics, in his third critique, Critique of Judgment, that you can see the connection between Kant's interest in the occult and K's development of this universal ethics. Then, for example, Hegel has an entire account of how you can see the evolution of human consciousness, or what he called spirit, through changes in aesthetic styles, changes in, you know, artistic expression from epoch to epoch, and how they reflect the evolution of the perceptive and cognitive capacities of humanity. So, okay, my point is that to be a philosopher, you really have to be thinking across all of these domains and developing concepts that cut across them above all because you cannot have any unquestioned presuppositions. So you could be the most brilliant, let's say, metaphysician, right. And someone who's developing a very rigorous epistemology. But if you have unquestioned political presuppositions, it's going to be tacitly warping your ontology and epistemology. And if you want to really be a philosopher, you know, which is to say someone who from the era of Socrates onward was defined by boundless, limitless and thoroughgoing questioning, you really cannot give yourself the luxury of unquestioned assumptions in any area. Right. So, I mean, this has very serious implications for religion, obviously, because it means that it's definitional to a philosopher that he or she, I consider Ayn Rand, for example, to be a real philosopher in this sense. He or she cannot accept any religion. It is definitional to a philosopher that you cannot adhere to a religious belief system, otherwise. I mean, you are crippling yourself and your basically capacity to question and develop concepts from the outset. If you have any kind of a.
- [09:12]
Jesse
Religious commitment, would you say St. Thomas Aquinas? Not a philosopher.
- [09:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Exactly. So the entirety of medieval European philosophy is not philosophy, and none of these people were philosophers. And also in Iran, I spent a lot of time both studying Iran and also making significant contributions to Iranian studies. My book Iranian Leviathan is a tome on the history of Iran, from Zarathustra to the Islamic Republic. And so what this also means is that this whole era that's misnamed the Islamic Golden Age, which really was like an Iranian renaissance from the 900s to the 1100s, really doesn't have very many philosophers involved with it because these people were essentially Islamic theologians of the type of Thomas Aquinas, like for example, Al Farabi. Al Farabi goes to the extent of equating Muhammad with Plato's ideal of the philosopher king, which is an absolute travesty. The only thinkers in that era that really exemplified the type of the philosopher were for example Razi, whose writings almost completely were destroyed by various, you know, inquisitors later on once the Turks came in and re solidified Islam in Iran and maybe Shahab al Din Sohrabardi. But it means that that whole period in Iran, very much like Europeans medieval so called philosophy, really doesn't pass muster. But why am I getting into all this? The point is that it seems almost as if we're entering another dark age now with the lack of substantive philosophical thinking and fewer and fewer individuals who really pass muster as exemplary of the type of the philosopher in the way that let's say in the 20th century we had Martin Heidegger, Jean Paul Sartre, Ludwig Wittgenstein and other really deep thinkers.
- [11:26]
Jesse
So a philosopher can't be an extension of state power or religious power is sort of what you're getting him. I mean, to play devil's advocate, you have philosophers like Leo Strauss also mid not a philosophy. So you'd say not a philosopher.
- [11:40]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Strauss said. So Strauss literally said I am not a philosopher. Do not call me a philosopher. I'm a professor of philosophy and a political thinker.
- [11:50]
Jesse
But in Straussian doublespeak that could mean I am a philosopher.
- [11:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So it's like he meant, he meant it. And the more shocking thing that Strauss said was at the same time as he made the statement, he said Martin Heidegger is the only living philosopher. Which coming from out of the mouth of a Jew was, is quite a striking statement, right? I mean Heidegger having been a high level Nazi functionary.
- [12:12]
Jesse
But wouldn't a Straussian read on many past philosophers be that many of them had to exceed to kind of the conventional thought of the time, but then secretly they could hold their own kind of heretical beliefs. So like, you know, I'm trying to think of a good example like was, you know, one of the Enlightenment era. Francis Bacon, not really a philosopher kind of a philosopher, but like, you know, he would say things like, you know, we need empiricism to prove out God's secrets or to, you know, understand the divine nature of the world and reality. And the Straussian, read on. That is like he's sort of a deist or an atheist and he doesn't believe in God at all and he's just sort of, you know, placating and paying lip service to the establishment power.
- [12:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, I think that through careful study that could be verified. So you brought up the case of Francis Bacon. There is a theory that will. I am Shakespeare is a pen name for Sir Francis Bacon. People think that now if someone were to engage in an exhaustive philosophical analysis of the works of Shakespeare and be able to prove that that was indeed a literary Persona of Sir Francis Bacon, then I think a very good case could be made that Francis Bacon was a first rate philosopher. Because there's an ethics, there's a political philosophy in Shakespeare, you know, and you could reconstruct that. So that would be a case of an actual philosopher engaging in esoteric writing in order to express the full range of his thought.
- [13:44]
Jesse
Do you believe that Shakespeare was in fact Francis Bacon?
- [13:47]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think it's possible. I think there's an argument there. I don't have the range of Shakespeare scholarship to or anywhere close to it to be able to assess that.
- [13:55]
Jesse
I think it was like, you know, there are all these kind of occult references like in King Lear or something like these, you know, things were forgot the exact argument. But it was like Stratford upon Avon wasn't super far from where Bacon was. And then, you know, all these things are mentioned like 33 times and who knows?
- [14:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
But I mean, look, it's clearly Bacon.
- [14:16]
Jesse
Was prolific, you know, Will.
- [14:18]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I am. I am Will. You know, the will. I'm the will. Shake spear. The shaking of the spear. Right. Is clearly a pseudonym. Yeah. For someone who was an incredible genius. So who the hell was that guy like at that time who was living and you know, who maybe expressed his genius in other ways as in the scientific writings of Bacon and then there's the New Atlantis.
- [14:43]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So anyway, it could be. Look, but my point is this, that that's one thing, but if you're a philosopher who's. Let me rephrase that. If you're a metaphysician who's afraid to express a political philosophy because you might be persecuted by the religious authorities of the day and you just don't put pen to paper, you know, in any way, even, let's say as a set of secret writings that you consign to somebody to be posthumously published. If you just never put pen to paper to express any kind of coherent political philosophy or ethics that follows from your ontology and epistemology. You're not a philosopher, you're a coward. Okay? And so, for example, in Iran, we had an example of somebody like that was Ibn Sina, or as they call him, Avicenna in the West. Great metaphysician. Maybe he has some ethics, but he did not develop a coherent political philosophy, which, as I see it, disqualifies him as the type of the philosopher. And he made a deathbed confession when.
- [15:47]
Jesse
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- [17:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
E commerce saying that, you know, these bastard Islamic clerics have made it impossible to think freely in this country and that I had to basically dissimulate and warp all of my ideas and my writings out of constant fear of persecution by the authorities. So he did say that before he died. Okay, I want to be a philosopher. You have to risk that and you have to be willing to be turned into a human torch like Giordano Bruno on the town square Rome or Socrates or Pythagoras, who had his schools burned down in his own lifetime. Right.
- [18:29]
Jesse
Oh, I didn't know that about Pythagoras.
- [18:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. I mean, some say he died in the fires, others say he barely escaped with his life and died from injuries shortly thereafter. But Pythagoras was the first one to be martyred in the history of philosophy. And then Socrates. And then they almost killed both Plato and Aristotle. Plato went to Syracuse to try to convince this tyrant Dionysus to become a philosopher king, as he had, you know, outlined in Republic. And basically the entire court of Syracuse conspired against Plato. And he had to escape by boat in the middle of the night, narrowly escaped with his life. And then Aristotle willingly left Athens because there was a plot to have him prosecuted also. So this is endemic to the history of philosophy.
- [19:15]
Jesse
Well, was this pre tutoring Alexander the Great or post or.
- [19:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It was pre because Alexander was younger. Right. And then. And they say, by the way out, that Alexander didn't like Aristotle.
- [19:25]
Jesse
Really?
- [19:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [19:26]
Jesse
Why didn't he like him?
- [19:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Aristotle ran a think tank. In addition to being like a philosopher, you know, engaged in his own individual exploration and contemplation. He had essentially like the prototype of the RAND Corporation in classical Greece. And various other city states would come to him and he would write their constitutions for them secretly. You know, you don't want to tell your people that their constitution comes from some guy's think tank in Athens if you're living in Corinth or, you know, Sparta or whatever. But they would come to him and he would write. Part of his political philosophy that informed his writing. Constitutions for various city states was that we should always have a political pluriverse. He was very much against one unifying government. Aristotle was the first serious thinker to critique the idea of world government. And so, for example, he was very wary of the Persians who wanted to establish a kind of, you know, humanistic one world order. Right. Well, Alexander actually had great reverence for the Persians. In particular, his hero was Cyrus the Great, the founder of The Persian Empire. The first thing he did when he got to Iran was he had them take him to the tomb of Cyrus so that he could pay his respects to Cyrus the Great. And eventually Alexander became convinced that the Persians had the right worldview and that the whole Earth and all of its cultures should be unified into a single cosmopolitan order, which eventually was reflected in the culture of the city of Alexandria that was named after him in Egypt, became like the cosmopolitan bastion of the world. Right. So this is diametrically opposed to Aristotle's thinking. You know, Alexander becomes the exemplar of the idea of the one world order. And, you know, Aristotle is the first critic of it.
- [21:21]
Jesse
That's so fascinating when things like that happen. Modern example of that would be like, George Soros and Viktor Orban, who's kind of a mentee and mentor. And like Soros, is obviously all about spreading as much democracy as possible. Orban was kind of his understudy, and then now, you know, is totally split off, and it's, you know, basically the tip of the spear when it comes to European nationalism.
- [21:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [21:44]
Jesse
And, you know, that's. It almost feels Shakespearean in some ways.
- [21:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Now, that's the other thing about the type of the philosopher which is very dangerous is the relationship between the philosopher and the state, because, frankly, you cannot be a nationalist and be a philosopher. Mm. Okay. So any philosopher who seems like a nationalist, like, says Martin Heidegger. Right. Who literally was, you know, a Nazi functionary, they're engaging in. I was about to say Straussian, rather, in Platonic dissimulation and some kind of a noble lie.
- [22:25]
Jesse
So do you think Heidegger was not a real philosopher?
- [22:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No, Heidegger was not a real nationalist.
- [22:30]
Jesse
He was not a real nationalist.
- [22:31]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And when you study Heidegger deeply, you see that it's very clear, but only to someone with an esoteric eye for it and who can sync together with him on a deep level, understand what he's really saying. Right. So he was trying to use the German state in a certain way that had to do with his understanding of the threat posed to humanity by modern technology and a way that he thought that the German state could be shaped to confront the instrumentalizing and mechanizing threat of modern technology, to shepherd technological development in a certain direction that would prevent the instrumentalization of humanity and our alienation from our existential essence. Right. So, but the deeper question is this. Like, I mean, Socrates was executed by the Athenian state, Right. And in his Discourse on the Arts and Sciences, Jean Jacques Rousseau says that the Athenians were justified in doing this because the guy was a menace to the social order and to the political cohesion of Athens, and that any thinker has to basically reconcile himself to the sovereignty of the state and to, like, basically accommodating the social order. Right. So Rousseau actually thinks the philosophers, you know, pose this, like, fundamental, you know, inimical challenge to state power. And I think that on some level, he's right. But the irony also is that especially in grave crises and what Carl Schmitt called states of emergency, I think it's also the philosophers of a people who can save a people. You know, a nation that lacks a philosopher or lacks deep thinkers in a moment of grave crisis is not going to make it.
- [24:30]
Jesse
No, that feels very right to me. And it feels like the modern world has very few, I think, of big philosophers today and that, you know, you're sort of one of them. And then you have, you know, guys like Slavo Zizek or whatever, who's, you know, super too postmodern for my taste, but, you know, he's at least attempting. And then, I don't know, even Jordan Peterson, in my mind, who I think he sort of falls prey to. It's like narcissism of small differences between him and postmodernism, because I think his. His stuff sort of melts into a postmodern gobbledygook or whatever. But he's. He's trying. He's, you know, read all the right stuff or whatever. But there are very few philosophers who are very ambitious. You know, I think most philosophy professors at universities just give you these very conventional, kind of lame, limited by modern epistemics, reads of these past philosophers. And you're sort of supposed to. There's a great, actually, essay by Nietzsche called On History. And he talks about undigested stones of knowledge. And it feels like that's what they're just passing on, these undigested stones of knowledge. They're not actually processing any of what they're saying.
- [25:43]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, in that essay, that's incredibly important essay, it became fundamental to Heidegger's thinking. And Heidegger basically quotes it at the Beginning of Being in Time. And it also has become very important to my work, in particular that book Iranian Leviathan, that I mentioned. The subtitle is A Monumental History of Mithra's Abode. And that term, monumental history, is from that essay of Nietzsche, the Uses and Abuses of History for Life. And he basically says that there's three modes of history. One is antiquarian history, which is what traditionalists do, where they glorify the past, right? And, like, the ultimate form of this is the Hindu or ancient Greek worldview, where there was a Golden Age and then it decayed into a Silver Age and a Bronze Age and so on and so forth. And so history is declining, Right. And all we can do is try to hold onto fragments of the past to the better days and to preserve as much of our heritage as possible. I mean, it's conservatism in an ontological sense. Then there's critical history, which is what these pomo people do. Like, you're just mentioning Zizek, right? Zizek is like, you know, probably. Yeah. The greatest living exemplar of postmodern philosophy. Right. And critical history is all about deconstructing power structures and showing how basically every institution and even every structure of knowledge was ultimately the product of a power game that somebody was playing, and that it benefits either some class interest or institutional interest or, you know, is a product of rivalry between nations or ethnicities and so on and so forth, and that it's all oppressive and it should all be deconstructed. It's like pouring acid on history and the achievements of all people throughout time.
- [27:28]
Jesse
Right?
- [27:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And Nietzsche says, okay, to be fair, under really oppressive conditions that are resulting in social sterility and that are hampering innovation and novel cultural development, a little bit of critical history is a good thing because it breaks up ossified structures and it allows creativity to be unleashed again. Right? So Michel Foucault is a great example. Michel Foucault is the ultimate critical historian. I mean, that was basically his project.
- [27:58]
Jesse
Everything's a power game. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And with all these histories that he engaged in, including history of sexuality, you know, history of the prison system, history of psychology.
- [28:07]
Jesse
And so then in his own personal life, he sort of, you know, was. He was kind of a pervert, to be honest. And I think it was kind of an expression of the morality that comes from that kind of.
- [28:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I'll tell you what's also an expression of that, is that Foucault endorsed Ayatollah Khomeini and the Islamic revolution in Iran. I mean, how lost do you have to be in postmodern nonsense that you think it's a liberation to help a misogynistic, theocratic, repressive regime come to power. Right? Anyway, so that's critical history. And then the last modality of history that Nietzsche discusses in that essay, which is the one that he personally embraces and that I have and that's been very important to my work is monumental history, which is the idea that monumentalizing certain past achievements, turning certain historical figures into icons that can continue to provide inspiration and having essentially a folkloric approach to one's heritage so that it doesn't become an ossified tradition, but it becomes a source of inspiration where you can dynamically adopt and adapt your heritage for future development. That's vital to the life of a people. And he says that it's like a tree whose branches can only grow toward the sun of destiny if it's deeply rooted in the earth and its roots are healthy underground. And that underground is the subconscious. It's that monumental history is nourished from out of the subconscious. And not everything in the past of a people has to be or should be rationally dissected and understood that we need to maintain a kind of subconscious connection to the mythic substratum of our heritage as a wellspring for continued creativity both in the arts and the sciences.
- [30:11]
Jesse
Yeah, I love that. He's so inspiring. When you read him, I like, you know, he seems very irrational and kind of iconoclastic and maybe a little crazy in his personal life and stuff. And Nietzsche was almost the first incel or something. But he was also just so inspiring. You read his work and it's full of vitality in life. So it felt like this weird juxtaposition. You had his kind of personal life, which he was kind of withering away. And then you have the writing, which was so vital.
- [30:41]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I love him. I feel a very deep affinity to Nietzsche. I'd say Plato, Nietzsche and Heidegger are probably the three philosophers who most deeply impacted my own thinking.
- [30:52]
Jesse
Well, you mentioned the Rand Corporation. We're in Santa Monica right now near the Rand Corporation. I believe Rand stands for R and D. Research and development was formed in, I believe, the mid to late 50s. One of these sort of federally funded research and development centers that was meant to look into all sorts of issues of national security. It's kind of a. You know, it says when we talk about the proverbial deep state, you think of the Rand Corporation and a man who was offered to be president of the Rand Corporation. Some people might not know. This is a past interviewee of mine, a guy named Harold Malmgren, who was a senior presidential advisor for jfk, lbj, Nixon and Ford, and said all sorts of really bombshell stuff when it came to UFOs, including he held pieces of a UFO at Sandia Complex in New Mexico, who was given to him by Lawrence Preston Geist, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather, which is fascinating. And he talked about the Magenta crash. Malmgren did. And his mentor, Richard Bissell, who founded Area 51, briefing him on otherworldly technologies. Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you? He said this didn't start last week.
- [32:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
This has been going on.
- [32:09]
Jesse
He mentioned that 1933 Magenta. He did, yes. Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta Crash. Yes. That's amazing. So this provided a lot of backup for David Grush's, you know, famous UFO whistleblower who's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure today. His testimony around this Magenta crash, where he came out, he said that there are covert American UFO reverse engineering programs. We have this whole history on this stuff. But he also said he talked about one specific crash, and it wasn't Roswell. It was this 1933 Lombardy, Northern Italy crash, specifically in Magenta, Italy.
- [32:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
1933 was the first recovery in Europe in Magenta, Italy. Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944. 1940, 45. And you know, the Pope Pius XII back channeled that. So the Vatican was involved. Yeah. And told the Americans what the Italians had, and we ended up scooping it.
- [33:12]
Jesse
And you have some interesting connections that you've made between that and Nazi prowess in engineering at the time. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mud Water has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post coffee crash. And let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mud Water gave me the smooth, steady energy I was missing. It's packed with functional mushrooms like lion's mane, chaga and reishi, plus turmeric and cacao, all working together to keep me focused, calm, and grounded. Honestly, it's like coffee went on a yoga retreat and came back Zen. What I love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee. It's a whole new ritual. It's a simple, nourishing way to start the day, and I actually look forward to it every morning. Every ingredient is USDA certified organic, vegan, non gmo, and there's zero sugar. It's energy that doesn't mess with your sleep or make you question your life choices. At 3am, ready to make the Switch to cleaner energy. Head to mudwtr.com that's M u d w t r.com and grab your starter kit today. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use Code Jesse. That's right. Up to 43% off with code Jesse. @mudwtr.com after your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mud water because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. And so what do you have to say about all of that?
- [35:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, so as far as I understand it, the Vatican was informed of it. The Vatican was informed of it and has a dossier on it. And the Vatican was involved in the sort of study of this object in a joint working group that involved both SS scientists and Italian scientists in a third party country. So when I wrote my book Closer.
- [35:33]
Jesse
Encounter, did he say third party country?
- [35:37]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No, but I know it's a third party country. Interesting, because that's where the so called Bell Project winds up being developed, namely just outside Prague in former Czechoslovakia. Okay. In the Czech Republic. And so when I was doing my research for Closer Encounters, we did not yet have the testimony from Grush about Magenta. I wrote that book in 2021, or it was published in 2021. So I studied the Nazi advanced propulsion research that was going on again at a facility called the Skoda Works just outside Prague under the direction of SS General Hans Kammler. After Grusch made this testimony about Magenta, I realized why they put it there. Because if the Italians had found this object, and at least from one angle this was a reverse engineering project, then it makes sense to have chosen a country that was neither Italy nor nor Germany. The Italians needed the German technical expertise. They were not going to figure out what the hell this thing was by themselves. Even though they'd had some very competent scientists, but still they knew that they had to call the Germans in. And yet the Germans probably wanted to, you know, wanted to respect the Italians by putting this project in a third country that was neither Germany nor Italy.
- [37:05]
Jesse
Right.
- [37:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So it was sort of a compromise, Axis compromise to put it in Czechoslovakia. Now, it's an interesting question how much of what they were doing there was an attempt to reverse engineer whatever crashed it in Magenta and how much of it was a result of Germans grappling with some real nuts and Bolts, practical engineering problems. So let me give you an example. The saucer airframe very naturally evolved from German aeronautical engineering. They were taking very seriously in the 1930s the problem of aerodynamics and the boundary layer, where a pocket of air resistance forms around the edges of an aircraft and it causes drag and impedes maneuverability. So they came up with the idea of creating a saucer shaped craft that would have suction vents all around it. And these suction vents would basically suck in the boundary layer and then redirect the air pocket into the propulsion system as part of the propulsion system. And another interesting thing that they developed in connection with this problem of suctioning of the boundary layer and basically making a much more aerodynamic aircraft was they developed a kind of perforated metal which later was discovered at Roswell, really, according to Corso. And it was the kind of metal where you could put your hand on the other side of it and blow through the metal and feel your breath on your hand. A perforated, finely perforated metal.
- [39:00]
Jesse
Do you know the name of this metal?
- [39:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think in German it was called Luft Schwarm. Luft Schwarm.
- [39:05]
Jesse
Okay.
- [39:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And then Corsair flying foam.
- [39:07]
Jesse
And how do we know? So then for context, 1947, famous proverbial, you know, archetypal UFO crash occurs in Roswell, which is the Home of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis Lemay. Sort of makes, you know, made the Roswell Daily Record. Got popularized, actually, way later in 1979. But you're saying that the metal found there matches what was discovered in Nazi Germany?
- [39:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Some of it. Some of it. Now, here's the thing about Roswell, and we'll come back to this.
- [39:39]
Jesse
Is this what Jesse Marcel handled, that metal?
- [39:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I don't know.
- [39:42]
Jesse
Okay.
- [39:43]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I don't know.
- [39:43]
Jesse
The memory metal.
- [39:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. Well, certainly memory metal was found there.
- [39:46]
Jesse
Yes.
- [39:47]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Whether these are the same thing and whether the memory metal was this perforated metal, I don't know. But supposedly that was also found there.
- [39:55]
Jesse
Does Corso say that the perforated metal that was found at Roswell matches?
- [40:00]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No. Joseph Farrell did a study of Corso's claims in the day after Roswell in a book which I believe is called Saucer Swastikas and Psyops. And he went in detail into various cutting edge German technological innovations of the 1940s, particularly military engineering. And he makes a number of really significant points in this regard. Among the things found at Roswell, according to Corso, was Kevlar Velcro.
- [40:34]
Jesse
Yes.
- [40:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Night vision. And Fiber optics and lasers, I believe. And lasers, yeah. This. I mean, okay, I guess space aliens could be using Kevlar. Maybe they could be using Velcro too. But Farrell researched this and he provides documentation that shows that the Germans had invented every single one of these in the 1940s. They were not in common use. They were not even accessible to the majority of the German military. But they were being tested, you know, as sort of cutting edge weapons technology, especially like in the North African desert in 1943. 44.
- [41:14]
Jesse
Yeah, I believe there's the first patent for a transistor is in Munich or something in the 30s. So, yeah, that's interesting.
- [41:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, when we went in there to Nazi Germany, we found that the German subsidiary of IBM, a company called Dehomage, was way ahead not only of all the other American transistor manufacturers, but ahead of the American IBM. So the German subsidiary was like developing transistors that were much smaller, on order of magnitude smaller than what we had in the United States.
- [41:45]
Jesse
But this brings up two really important questions. One is, what caused this just general technological acceleration in Nazi Germany in the 20s, 30s and 40s. I mean, really 30s and 40s. If you think about Hitler took power in 1933, which was. You have like 10 years to build up and you get all sorts of. I mean, look at V2 rockets are like 20, 30 years ahead of anything in the West. You know, all the Wunderwaffe, you know, their fighter jets were. The skunk works was kind of a response to the fact that their fighter jets were running circles around ours. So what accounts for that? A and then B, if they are so advanced technologically, why did the United States ultimately, you know, prevail and beat them in World War II?
- [42:34]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, that's the subject that I, you know, I hope we can get into in some level of detail. I wonder if I should flesh out a couple more things about the engineering at the Koda Works before we then come back to this and really dive into it head on. So they were developing these saucer airframes with suction dents and so on and so forth. But these were rocket powered. They had rotating rockets underneath these saucer shaped craft.
- [43:02]
Jesse
Rotating rockets?
- [43:03]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, like a series of jets, like put in a, in, like in a fan formation to basically maneuver these saucer shaped craft in various directions. So it was a jet aircraft, in other words, it was a saucer shaped rocket powered aircraft. Then parallel to this saucer airframe project, there was another project which when I did my research in Closer Encounters, working from Joseph Farrell and Nick Cook's book, the Hunt for Zero Point. Nick Cook's research and then also his citations of Igor Witkowski's research. Polish researcher who actually went to this site and did some field work there. I assumed that this project based on those researchers, I assumed that this project began like in the early 1940s. I've since been informed by somebody who had relatively direct knowledge, somebody in Serbia, that it went back to 1937. Who is this person? I don't want to mention the person's name, but a very old person who was involved with some of these individuals back in the day in Central and Eastern Europe.
- [44:15]
Jesse
Interesting.
- [44:16]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And so from what I hear from him, it started in 1937 and this was a project to basically develop. Originally their aim was to develop a new power source. A power plant involving the electromagnetic rotation of mercury and thorium.
- [44:36]
Jesse
Yep.
- [44:38]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So I think it's Thorium 232, if I remember correctly, mixed with a certain isotope of mercury. And the reason for mixing it with mercury is that mercury is electromagnetically reactive. So if you want to rotate the thorium using electromagnets, mixing the thorium with mercury allows you to rotate the thorium very effectively, create thorium torsion. And this device would be continuously powered by alternating current and intermittently shocked with very high voltage direct current. And basically what it did was it would create a. A kind of plasma fusion from out of which tremendous energy flowed. So it was a over unity device where you would be putting a certain amount of energy into it, both AC and dc. But then the nuclear reaction of the thorium due to electromagnetic torsion would produce more energy than was being put into the device.
- [45:49]
Jesse
I see high conviction that that's. I mean. So you're saying this sort of they had like a zero point energy device?
- [45:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, yes, because that's, that's the idea. That's what Witkowski, Nick Cook and Joseph Farrell are all saying. Looking at the Bell Pro.
- [46:04]
Jesse
Well, Nick Cook, so yeah, a lot of his stuff came from Witkowski. And it's amazing. I mean, he takes a little boat ride and they go underground and you can see the rig where die Glocko was. So it was definitely a real project. And Hans Kallmer was a, you know, very real guy. He had control of kodaworks, which was kind of the really black world exciting projects going on as opposed to kind of the white world Heisenberg nuclear project. But there are all sorts of rumors about die Glock. I mean, some people say it was like a time machine. When you talk to Nick Cook. He gets a little uncomfortable as my read, almost as if he knows something that he can't really talk about or something. But he'll. He'll say, I think it was a black world nuclear project.
- [46:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Over time I have come to conclude that it was probably a one of several sites that the Germans, the SS in particular, were using to look into nuclear weapons, nuclear technology, which goes towards maybe both of those things are true. I think both of those things are true. And we're going to unpack both of them. Okay, so first let's start from the time angle. Right?
- [47:17]
Jesse
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- [48:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So I think I assume that, or let's say I suspect that they were looking for a incredible power plant originally, but the reason that rig exists is because they realized that this thing levitates when you turn it on and they had to chain it down. And so this whatever kind of energy was being generated also resulted in counter Barry. It was an anti. In other words, it developed a local gravitational field around itself, anti gravity. But the other more interesting thing is that it. They would put plants around this thing and they would turn to mulch. They were like cellularly disrupted. They were disrupted on a cellular level and they would basically disintegrate. And supposedly the entire first team of scientists that worked around this thing died very quickly and they had to replace them.
- [49:57]
Jesse
And we do know from Witkowski for a fact that the lead scientists was a guy, it was a guy named Ernest Grawitz, who I believe was an SS medical officer who worked directly under Joseph Mengele. So if you were putting sort of biological specimens, you know, in this sort of torsion field, you know, he would be relevant. And then a guy named Walter Gerlach who worked at a local university and was extremely interested in gravity. So. Yeah, sort of to your point.
- [50:22]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Absolutely. And Gerlach was involved in like also magnetic engineering and stuff like that, electromagnetic engineering and stuff like that. So but. And the people who, I mean the first group of them eventually died experienced extreme temporal disorientation. So they would. This is what the reports are, you know, from Witkowski and then Farrell, that they experienced time flowing at a different rate than people outside the laboratory and that it became extremely disorienting and eventually cognitively debilitating to them.
- [51:00]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [51:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So time machine, well, you know, maybe not at that stage, but some kind of a time disruptor that it is interfering with the fabric of space time.
- [51:12]
Jesse
And for people who think we're crazy, general relativity even would allow for that on a go forward sense. Because if you create a high density or you create a high energy environment, there are two ways to basically warp space time. It's, you know, mass and energy. And with Bose you would encounter sort of time displacement. And so with this, you know, black hole where you have like, you know, you're going to slow time the closer you get to it. So high voltage experimentation and things of that nature, or you know, nuclear experiment, you might, you know, incur some sort of time displacement as well.
- [51:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Absolutely.
- [51:47]
Jesse
And say you were to like do that in a more.
- [51:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And wasn't Townsend Brown obsessed with like time travel?
- [51:51]
Jesse
He's obsessed with time travel. Like Agnew Bonson, who funded him, was famous for saying that, you know, in high mo, high megavolt range, you know, electricity experiments, very anomalous things would occur, phenomena would occur. And Townsend Brown definitely thought that his work would lead you to a working model of time travel. And to get even more specific with how that might Work in the context of Diclofka is the rumor was that there was a ceramic chamber, you know, internally, to protect, you know, whatever biological organism was being sort of tested in this environment. And by the way, this is a Nazi regime that definitely experimented on human beings. Twin studies with Josef Mengele, Experimental Cell Block 9, where they try to cryonically freeze people like border science was very in vogue. So you'd put a person in this ceramic chamber, you create a torsion field around it, and basically you'd slow time on the inside to, you know, say 1 1,000th of a second. And, you know, if a person spent a year inside this chamber, you'd walk out and you'd be a thousand years in the future. And that doesn't break Hawking's chronological conjecture. It works with general relativity. It makes theoretical sense. There are all these engineering issues with it, presumably, but what you're saying isn't totally crazy for the audience.
- [53:10]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And, and unfortunately, I'm sure that they brought concentration camp inmates and put them in there.
- [53:15]
Jesse
I'm sure they did that.
- [53:17]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So, okay, so you have this bell and then you. And by the way, an alternate name for the bell was die Bienenstock, the beehive, which is interesting because they say the reason they called it that is that it makes the sound of a bunch of bees buzzing together when you turn this thing on. And there have been people who've reported that in relation to UFO closing.
- [53:38]
Jesse
Yeah, low humming.
- [53:39]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, we heard that. A sound in that direction. It was sort of like a buzzing noise. Was a very, you know, it was like a buzzing kind of sound like bees, but more like a. Yeah, like a machine bee sound. So just very strange.
- [53:53]
Jesse
What was the craft like? So you're, you're in the inside of this thing. What did it look like?
- [53:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
A beehive. So they had this bell and they had this saucer shaped airframe that initially was being, you know, propelled by rockets. They took the rockets out, put the belt in it, and there's your flying saucer. It's the integration of the bell with the saucer airframe as the propulsion system for the saucer.
- [54:21]
Jesse
You know, when the first public patent for a flying saucer was when, 1937.
- [54:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Really?
- [54:26]
Jesse
Yeah, a guy named Henry Kuanda, who was Romanian, but eventually he was, you know, overtaken by, by the Nazis and started to work with them then. And then, and then he went over to Wright Pat and worked with the Americans on the Avrocar project, which is probably a front for some deeper stuff that you're kind of getting into right now. So I find that interesting as well.
- [54:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, that makes a very good point too, in so far as scientific breakthroughs never only occur once and never come through. Only one person. Anyone who studies the history of science knows this. And one of the most ignorant points made today is to dispute the idea that, let's say, the Nazis could have cracked ZPE back in the 40s and had, you know, saucer propulsion is. Well, somebody else should have come up with it, you know, like either before or by now or whatever. First of all, the last few decades are full of cases of people coming up with, like, interesting energy devices and either being bought out or being made to disappear or whatever, you know, meeting some kind of misfortune. But going back to that era, yes, other people arrived at the same thing. Townsend Brown arrived at something similar. Nikola Tesla had already arrived at something similar decades earlier, even if he didn't patent it. And, you know, Tesla was notorious for not properly patenting things. His drawings of the world wireless system are full of UFOs, wingless, electrogravitically powered craft. They are all over Tesla's drawings. It's not as if the Nazis came up with this, like, you know, Munich.
- [56:00]
Jesse
Lean and the effects that you're mentioning, people having incurred, you know, time displacement, disorientation, all the reports of the Philadelphia experiment, which was led by Thomas Townsend Brown, who had a nervous breakdown at that time and had to move out to LA and then started working for, you know, Martin Corporation the year that skunk work started. All of the same sort of reports of what you're describing, time displacement. I believe people think they might have used thorium in that as well, or maybe it was hexafloor, I don't remember. But very interesting, the parallels there too. People said they went back in time, they went forward in time. There are all sorts of fantastical stories about it. Nobody knows quite what happened. It had a very large budget attached to it. So could have been this parallel kind of, you know, thing which often happens in science, as you just said.
- [56:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yep, yep. And so now here's the picture. It's so from, based on, you know, the research that I've done, citing closer encounters, it's 1944 when they figure out finally how to integrate. Well, they finish work on the bell, at least the prototype of it, and they figure out how to integrate it with the saucer airframe, 1944. So they're already losing the war. The Germans are losing the war. The Allies are marching on them. It's increasingly a Losing battle. And Nazi leadership starts to make these statements about how there are these wonder weapons that are being developed. And once the wonder weapons, the Wunderwaffe are finished, then Germany will dramatically turn the tide and secure like an 11th hour victory in the war. But it's all dependent on these wonder weapons. And don't worry, they're coming. Right. This rhetoric starts to emerge from out of party leadership. Otto Skorzeny, who at that time was the master of psychological warfare and special operations, shows up to the Skoda works and supposedly he's given a demonstration of this thing and he gets obsessed with the idea of using this thing as part of some grand psychological warfare operation. And then we have. So this is 1944, right? Fast forward to a year after the end of the war. There are these newspaper reports in Spain that Otto Skorzeny is with General Franco on the Mediterranean coast and they're launching saucer shaped rockets toward America. They didn't know what to call these things at that time.
- [58:32]
Jesse
Right.
- [58:32]
Jason Reza Jorjani
They didn't know what rockets were. They were seeing these rocket like things that were saucer shaped being launched from Spain, the Mediterranean coast over toward America. Really? One year later, what happens? Roswell and other crashes.
- [58:45]
Jesse
Whoa. What are the reports of Franco launching saucers with skorzeny?
- [58:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
This is in, I think it's in the saucer swastikas and psyops book of Farrell where he reproduces these Spanish newspaper reports.
- [58:58]
Jesse
Really?
- [58:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, from 1946, describing the two of them together with of course, a bunch of military people on the Mediterranean coast of Spain.
- [59:08]
Jesse
And you think that that made its way to Roswell, New Mexico?
- [59:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Possibly, yeah. And the picture is a lot darker than that. Here's what I think happened. We all know about Operation Paperclip. You've discussed it at length on your show. What fewer people know about is the incorporation of the Galen organization into American intelligence. Right. So remember, the Soviets are marching across all of Eastern Europe, taking all this territory that had been part of the Reich. There's a whole network of Nazi SS affiliated intelligence operatives in Eastern Europe who continue to be embedded there as the Soviets are marching over the territory. So what happens in 1945 when America wins the war? Immediately at a strategic level, it's understood that our enemy is now the Soviet Union and the world is divided at Berlin. Right. And if we are going to conduct successful espionage on the Soviets, we would have to build a vast spy network in Eastern Europe. Well, there's already one there. Okay. It's the network that was run by General Reinhard Galen. So our OSS makes a deal with General Galen to absorb his entire Nazi spy network in Eastern Europe as part of the creation of the CIA. Part of the creation of the CIA and of West German intelligence, which was very closely affiliated with the CIA. So it's not just the case that we brought over all these Nazi scientists. By we, I mean the CIA. It's that the CIA that brought over all those Nazi scientists and sanitized their records, you know, in these paper clip, the files, the sanitized files they created for them, sanitized bios and so forth. And the CIA that did that was co constituted by absorbing an SS spy network. Well, think about what kind of culture that's creating in America. Okay, as the National Security act is passed in 1947. Why is the National Security act passed in 1947?
- [61:21]
Jesse
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- [62:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Could it have to do with what happened at Roswell and the need to create a vast unaccountable inscrutable security apparatus.
- [62:53]
Jesse
It could have been direct reaction. I believe the national security act was September 1947 and Roswell was July of 1947. So a lot of people speculate that.
- [63:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So, so here's what I think. It's a hydra. The Nazis created the crisis at Roswell. They staged an event. Now, let me not be misinterpreted, okay? As anyone who listens to our first conversation can see, I'm not by any means suggesting that like grays or whatever, like manufactured by Nazis or what, you know, or that all of the crashes have to do with Nazis. No, no, no, not by any stretch of the imagination.
- [63:33]
Jesse
But you think Roswell was accounted specifically. Roswell by Nazis?
- [63:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. Like, for example, there was a crash that Jacques Vallee gets into in his book Trinity that took place a couple years, no, three years earlier, right after the Trinity detonation near the test site. Something came down.
- [63:50]
Jesse
It was 20 days after the test.
- [63:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And the beings who were witnessed coming from out of that craft were like praying mantis, like, you know, something like between a gray and a praying mantis, childlike insectoid entities. Okay, those were not, they didn't have anything to do with the Nazis. They were bald headed, slang eyes, teardrop eyes, no ears, unless they had a coating of something on it. And I noticed that their shoulders were kind of narrow but had long arms. And what surprised me that they had four fingers. So I'm not suggesting that like all these crashes, okay, have to do with Nazi psychological operations, but the particular incident at Roswell I think did.
- [64:37]
Jesse
Really? Is that just based on the Franco Skorzeny shooting sauce?
- [64:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No, it's based on the analysis of what was recovered there. And all of it represents cutting edge German technology, based on Corso's testimony of the technology recovered there and then looking into history of cutting edge German military technological innovations.
- [64:55]
Jesse
But 47 is two years after the official surrender of, you know, VE Day surrender of Germany.
- [65:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So why would they, when you look at the instruments of surrender. So a number of things are relevant here. Let's go through them one by one. When you look at the instruments of surrender, the German army, air force, navy and the German government surrender. The SS never surrenders.
- [65:18]
Jesse
Really?
- [65:18]
Jason Reza Jorjani
The SS is not included in the German instruments of surrender.
- [65:22]
Jesse
Is that because they're inherently the secret police?
- [65:24]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's because they continued, they did not surrender. And certain particular SS officers not just continued, but developed high level intelligence and financial relations with both the United States and the United Kingdom.
- [65:38]
Jesse
But wasn't that still under the United States like I think of, you know, Wernher von Braun or a lot of these guys, they're sort of under the US's thumb. You know, ultimately the US sort of wielded authority and power over them.
- [65:51]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No?
- [65:51]
Jesse
You don't think so?
- [65:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So when von Braun, who was by the way, an SS major who used slave labor to build rockets in basically a concentration camp inside of a mountain.
- [66:01]
Jesse
And then became responsible for the American space program, essentially. Yeah.
- [66:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
When von Braun and his buddies were down in Texas and during the period they were in Texas, at one point they, it was noticed by American, probably the FBI, that they were going and meeting Nazi counterparts coming from Argentina at border towns in Mexico and giving them data drops. They were giving classified American military data to their Nazi counterparts coming from Argentina.
- [66:40]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [66:40]
Jason Reza Jorjani
In meetings in Mexico. So they were confronted about this by the Americans. Next thing you know, a V2 rocket goes off course and hits a place in Mexico.
- [66:49]
Jesse
No way.
- [66:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And the, the von Braun's people basically intimated to the Americans, you know, if you make working conditions hard for us and keep grilling us like this, you know, rockets are bound to go off course and maybe, you know, a war with Mexico might even start.
- [67:08]
Jesse
What?
- [67:09]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So they were being hassled by these people in a way that suggests that these Nazis had a lot more control and latitude than the civilian government of the United States wanted to believe was the case. And I think that degree of control is coming from the deep state that was established through the national security Act of 1947. In other words, the CIA, probably the NSA, and various other apparatuses of our deep state in America were co constituted by the remnants of the ss. And this isn't unique to America with like, for example, the absorption of the Galen network into the OSS to create the CIA. It's also the case with the British. So Ian Fleming, who went on to write the Bond novels, was an MI6 operative whose specific mission at the end of the war was to facilitate the evacuation of Martin Bormann to Argentina. Martin Bormann was like the financial mastermind of the Reich and he supposedly died three times. There are three conflicting accounts of this man's death from 1945-47. Next thing you know, he has a joint bank account with Juan Peron in Argentina. And as late as the 1960s, Martin Bormann is cashing checks written in his own Name through Chase, JPMorgan Chase in Buenos Aires. Okay, so the British are involved too. And then this Ian Fleming, MI6, you know, operative winds up becoming a novelist who Writes about an organization called spectre, which is a hidden third power in the world. So the villain in the Bond verse, right, is a secret, transnational global organization that's capable of rivaling both the Soviet Union and the civilian government of the United States.
- [69:13]
Jesse
Whoa. Well, I guess Specter, they have, like, German accents, a lot of them, don't they? Or it's like.
- [69:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's very obviously the organization which was known to Ian Fleming as odessa, the initials of which in German stand for Order of Former SS Officers, and which informally was referred to as Die Spinner, or the Spider.
- [69:36]
Jesse
Fascinating. Really? Well, that's. That's really amazing. That's so interesting. And do you know anything? Because I believe the inspiration for Ian Fleming, for James Bond, was William Stevenson, who is known as Churchill's super spy. He was a sort of Canadian, British, actually. And I had an identic memory, was an engineer, and then also was this kind of brilliant super spy strategist. And so was he ever fighting the Spider in any sort of way? Because that would, like, instantiate this even more.
- [70:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, that I don't know. That I don't know. But I know that Fleming was involved with them and facilitating. But I think that the leadership of this organization basically was taken over by Martin Bormann and probably Otto Skorzeny was in the second position. Once these people basically set up shop in Argentina. One of the most interesting things that they did in Argentina was they promised they were going to develop fusion power and fusion nuclear weapons for Juan Peron.
- [70:41]
Jesse
Mm.
- [70:43]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And this guy, Ronald Richter, German scientist, set up a fusion project in Bariloche. This is early 1950s, late 40s into the early 50s, I believe in 1951. The Atomic Energy Agent. The Internet, the IAEA, International Atomic Energy Agency, went down there to investigate claims that they were developing nuclear fusion. And they found a very, you know, complex facility over there.
- [71:15]
Jesse
Yeah, I've been there, actually. I've seen it.
- [71:17]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, you were telling us.
- [71:18]
Jesse
Whole island off the. Off the coast of Bariloche, it's like this little. Yeah.
- [71:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So you went to Bariloche to investigate.
- [71:23]
Jesse
Not to investigate this. I was just chilling out Bariloche, and I was on a hike, and then somebody told me about this scientist named Ronald Richter, who is the former Nazi who was working on fusion there. And I was like, what? And then I went. And it's amazing. Yeah. And then there's a. There's a civilian nuclear grid in Bariloche as well. So who knows if there is some sort of overlap there?
- [71:45]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, Argentina later almost developed Nuclear weapons later on in the 1970s. But here's the interesting thing is that he promised to develop these nuclear weapons, fusion, fusion weapons for Peron, and he never did. Ronald Richter and moreover, when the IAEA people went down there, investigated, they said, this doesn't look like any confusion that we understand. We don't know what this guy's doing down here. Here it's incredibly energy intensive, but it doesn't look like any kind of fusion that we understand. Okay, here's where it gets really dark and goes to your question of like, if they had all this technology, meaning the Nazis, why didn't they use it to win the war and how is it that we won the war and so on and so forth. Right?
- [72:25]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [72:27]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There are some Eyewitness reports of two German nuclear weapons tests being conducted between late 1944 and early 1945. One in the Baltic Sea, where a pilot was flying over the Baltic Sea and he saw bright, bright light that almost blinded him and an explosion where there were like multi colored, like rainbow colored lights, like fizzling inside the explosion, which is a telltale sign of a nuclear fission explosion. When you see one with your naked eye in person, it doesn't register register on camera very well, but it's like the rest of the fissile material kind of like reacting inside the mushroom cloud. And he said, like it, it created a huge pressure wave he saw from his airplane and this blinding flash of light and these weird like multicolored reactions. And then there's a second eyewitness account of, of what appears to be a nuclear test near the Thuringian Forest, which I think they said like cut out power in a nearby town or something like this. Like, you know, the EMP effect of a new. So again, this is research that's been done by two people. One is a guy, weird name, Plimpton. Heydrich, I think Plymouth.
- [73:49]
Jesse
Or is it Plimpton?
- [73:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I got it wrong when we spoke on the phone. It's actually Plimpton, I think Heydrich. A book called Critical Mass. It's a whole study of the Nazi nuclear program and its connection to the United States and to the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which will come to in a minute. And then the second source is Farrell's deeper research on Plimpton, Heydrich's claims and additional research that he did into Nazi nuclear weapons. And basically the, the picture that emerges is this, that the pro. The uranium enrichment program that Heisenberg was running was a red herring that was a, it was a basically cover and diversionary tactic to throw off the allies who successfully defeated that program. They sent, like, a team of, like, Nordic skiers or something to, like, take out the heavy water plant. And so they. They derailed that project. But that there was a deeper black project to develop nuclear weapons using electromagnetic isotope separation, which is something that later was used at Oak Ridge in the United States, and that the Germans were using electromagnetic isotope separation in a. In a more secret parallel track program that did succeed in developing fission weapons. Now, Plmpton Heydrich, in his book, argues he makes this case that at Trinity, they did not. The records showed that they did.
- [75:18]
Jesse
When you say electromagnetic isotope separations, like, just like a centrifuge or like.
- [75:23]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No. Something other than the kind of centrifuge technology that we're used to. And I'm not a physicist, I don't know what it is. And probably they were also using laser isotope enrichment because the Nazis developed the laser, I think, in part for this purpose of isotope enrichment. Which, by the way, just very brief side note to all those people investigating the Iranian nuclear program right now, they are not using centrifuge enrichment for the nuclear weapons. Iran has been using laser isotope enrichment. And I hope that wherever the hell it is they're conducting laser isotope enrichment, that this regime doesn't have an unacknowledged stockpile of highly enriched uranium. In any case, be that as amazing as a side. The shah bought laser isotope enrichment technology from Switzerland in 1970.
- [76:17]
Jesse
Interesting.
- [76:18]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Anyway, so all this stuff about we gotta check out the centrifuges, that's not where they're doing. Yeah, but okay, how is it relevant? It's. They learned from the Nazis. The Nazis had a fake program, which was a diversionary tactic. And then there was a real, deeper black program.
- [76:32]
Jesse
Why would you use. Because Heisenberg was so smart. I mean, he was responsible for, you know, understanding the mathematical underpinnings behind quantum leaps. You know, electrons and electron shells and orbits and, you know, the uncertainty principles.
- [76:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
He also wrote this book, Physics and Philosophy, which is an absolutely masterful text.
- [76:51]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [76:51]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That quotes Heraclius and shows how Heraclitus was like a precursor to quantum theory and intuited, basically. Quantum theory is a fantastic, brilliant guy.
- [76:59]
Jesse
Yeah. And he's really. It's a trippy book, that book, because he talks about all sorts of issues in quantum mechanics and interpretations that, you know, the Copenhagen school is kind of wrestling with, that we now kind of paint over with this broad brush around consciousness. And he really, like, muses in this deep way that consciousness might play a Part in wave function, collabs and that sort of thing. And. And now it's just, you know. Oh, it's all. It's, you know, it's the quantum detector or whatever does, you know, the wave function collapses when particles collide or whatever. But.
- [77:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So why would you, why would you waste a guy like that?
- [77:33]
Jesse
Why would you waste a guy like that, a brain like that?
- [77:35]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Because if you want the Allies to believe that this is your nuclear program, you're gonna have to put as your frontman the guy that the Allies would expect to be running the Nazi nuclear program.
- [77:48]
Jesse
What's interesting about him is he and all the people on his nuclear program were captured, like you said, and they were put, I believe, in the English countryside. And the whole house was wiretapped. And this is a part of the alsos program, this nuclear tech retrieval program. And they were just listening. What are they going to say? Maybe they give away some trade secrets and they talk about feeling regret around working on the nuclear program and also gratitude that their sort of heavy water engineering never quite worked out, which was, I guess they were using deuterium, you know, in their approach.
- [78:24]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So I thought you were gonna say something else because the other thing I've heard about that. I've heard this story.
- [78:28]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a transcript. It's amazing. Read it all.
- [78:31]
Jason Reza Jorjani
But here's another interesting thing about that, is that when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
- [78:36]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [78:37]
Jason Reza Jorjani
They overheard these guys. They have that, you know, transcript of how immediately Heisenberg and his people calculated the amount of fissile material used.
- [78:47]
Jesse
Really?
- [78:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. So it was as if they knew, like they could reverse engineer from, you know, the scale of the explosion, whatever, what kind of bomb produced, which implies a completed nuclear weapon or knowledgeable one. But in any case, that's not either.
- [79:03]
Jesse
That or they're the most competent guys, which means they shouldn't be on the.
- [79:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
COVID I wouldn't rest anything on that. But here's the interesting point I was making in relation to the Plimpton Hydrichs research that he says that there's records showing the amount of fissile material at Trinity and that it wasn't anywhere close to being able to basically complete Fat man and Little Boy. And that in 1945 a deal was made with the Nazis to transfer by submarine the fissile material that went into the bombs that we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That the Trinity project was completed with Nazi highly enriched uranium and that it was transferred in an agreement that we made with the ss. Wow. Okay.
- [79:54]
Jesse
Your high conviction in that.
- [79:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, this is what he argues and he's done. His book is Critical Mass, and he lays out a lot. A huge argument for this. Now here's the problem. If we got our uranium from them. And by the way, he also makes the argument that the engineering of the plutonium bomb was completed with Nazi assistance. Okay, so if we got our uranium and additional technical expertise for completing our nuclear weapons from the Nazis, and if there are two reports of Nazi successful nuclear tests in 44 into 45, why weren't these weapons used by the Nazis?
- [80:39]
Jesse
It's a great question. Why?
- [80:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There are a couple of different answers, and they're both really disturbing.
- [80:45]
Jesse
Okay.
- [80:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Let me start. I don't know which one is more disturbing. Okay, but. Okay, so if Ronald Richter is working on fusion In Argentina in 1950, is it possible? And. And the Nazis had. Let's say they've developed this bell that involves electromagnetic torsion of thorium and some kind of a plasma fusion that takes place inside of this device. Is it possible the Nazis figured out some other kind of nuclear reaction, weaponizable nuclear reaction, besides fission? And is that related to why Ronald Richter was promising fusion bombs to Juan Peran, which he never delivered.
- [81:33]
Jesse
Interesting. I didn't know he was promising fusion.
- [81:35]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, he was promising nuclear weapons. And this is why the IAEA went down there.
- [81:39]
Jesse
Fusion bombs.
- [81:39]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, okay, he's working on fusion and he's promising nuclear bombs to Peron. So we may assume from those two data points that he's promising fusion bombs. Now, we only developed fusion bombs.
- [81:53]
Jesse
And hydrogen bombs are fusion bombs.
- [81:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Exactly. But here's the interesting thing, is that we develop hydrogen fusion bombs in the 50s, and this is 1950. Ronald Richter's down there. So it's relatively the same ballpark timeframe.
- [82:05]
Jesse
Edward Teller and Ulam. That design was 52.
- [82:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, but here's the thing. Our hydrogen bombs use a fission trigger to create a fusion reaction. What if the Nazis figured out how to create a fusion reaction without a fission trigger? It'll be extremely useful because the radioactivity of a nuclear explosion comes from the fission trigger, the neutron bombardment that, well, first of all immediately disrupts our whole organism and then also irradiates all the fallout that comes down on people. That neutron bombardment is from the fission reaction, not from the fusion. So if you could create a fusion reaction without a fission trigger, you'd have a clean nuclear bomb. Bomb. An extremely high explosive force, but no radioactivity. So your troops could move into that area and occupy it immediately.
- [83:02]
Jesse
Really? There'd be no radioactivity.
- [83:04]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No radioactivity. It's the opposite of a neutron bomb. So a neutron bomb is engineered to maximize neutron bombardment. This is an aneutronic fusion bomb. If the Nazis developed that in 1944-45, atom bombs would be like matches for them. It's child's play. So they would be willing to trade that for something else, like maybe the mass assimilation and what do you call it, amnesty for Nazi scientists. Like maybe incorporation of their entire SS spy network in Eastern Europe into the CIA. Like perhaps the transfer of a huge amount of funds, like wartime loot to Argentina and other places that they made a deal and gave the matches to the Americans. They kept the fusion bombs for themselves.
- [83:56]
Jesse
You don't think they just vaporize large swaths of American territory and try to win? No.
- [84:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Now this gives me. This comes to the second reason, which is even more disturbing.
- [84:05]
Jesse
Okay.
- [84:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
All right. And I almost apologize for how disturbing this is, but people need to really think about this because I think we're still inside this spider's web and it's responsible for a lot of the deception. Misdirection around the disclosure conversation today.
- [84:24]
Jesse
Okay?
- [84:26]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So you have to take seriously this claim on the part of the Nazi leadership that they wanted a thousand year Reich. Okay? A Thousand Year Imperium is no joke. Americans have a very hard time with this because this country was born yesterday in historical terms. Okay. There are other people who are capable of grasping this more effectively. Let me give you an example, and trust me, it's worth setting it up.
- [84:54]
Jesse
Like this and for context for the audience real quick. Third Reich is called that because I believe it was the Roman Empire then, the Holy Roman Empire, and they were supposed to be the third instantiation.
- [85:03]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. So they want this Thousand Year Reich. Okay, well, who thinks like that? We. In Iran, there was a dynasty that's often misnamed the Second Persian Empire. Actually, they weren't Persians, they were Scythians. The Parthian Empire of Iran. Okay. It lasted for 400 years. The Parthian Empire, Iran was the principal rival of Rome. So the two superpowers in the world at that time were the Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire of Iran. And at that time, the country was called Ariana Khashatra. Arian Imperium. That was the official name of the Parthian government was Arian Imperium. And then Ariana gets shortened to Iran in Middle Persian. So these Parthians ruled Iran and successfully fought the Romans, usually to a stalemate for 400 years. Then they get overthrown in a coup by these guys called the Sassanids, the Sassanid Persians, and they established their own empire. But the Parthian elite continue to be the backbone of the Sassanid state. The feudal houses. The Parthian feudal houses serve the Sassanid state and protect it. The way like in Game of Thrones, you have all the main houses in Game of Thrones and they're like serving. What's that place? You know, the main. The capital, whatever it is. Right. In Game of Thrones, what is that place? I forget. Anyway, the Lannisters are there and like all the other feudal houses are serving them, right? Yes.
- [86:31]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [86:31]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So get this. The Parthians rule Iran for 400 years directly.
- [86:35]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [86:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
They continued to rule Iran secretly for another 400 years under the Sassanids. They're the backbone of the Sassanid state. In the end, the conflict. Make a very long story short, the conflict they had with the Sassanids results in the collapse of Iran to Islam. The state security of Iran and the conquest of the Persian Empire by the Arab Muslim armies was on account of basically the tension between the Sassanid and these feudal lords. So Iran then is subsumed by Islam for a couple hundred years. Roundabout 850900 An Iranian renaissance begins, which is misnamed often the Islamic Golden Age. 90% of the people who contributed to it in the arts and sciences were Iranians. Anyway, the Parthians are also the patrons of this. So they become like the Medicis, they become the patrons of an Iranian renaissance for another 300 years between like 900, between 900 and 1100. So these people ruled Iran directly for 400 years, ruled Iran indirectly for another 400 years, 800 years. And then for another 300 years they patroned an Iranian Renaissance. 1100 years. For over a thousand years, these feudal families had a coherent political vision. That's how you need to think when you want a thousand year rise. Okay, so if the Nazis in the modern world want to set up a thousand year imperium, it's going to require a little bit of preparation. Investing a century in psychological warfare and social engineering to set up your thousand year Reich is not at all an unreasonable investment. And so my hypothesis is that but from 1945 until 2045, we are in a period of preparation involving horrendous psychological warfare and social engineering by a deeply entrenched fascist elite. Let's not call them Nazis anymore, because they're really not nationalists. A deeply entrenched fascist elite that controls the American deep State. So that's the second answer to why did they not not win the war? No, they won the war. It's just you have to rethink what the war is. The war is a Weltanschangskrieg. It's a worldview war. And that doesn't mean what Americans think it does. So like when we went into Germany in 1945, the American military went in there, they translated Wiltan Changskrieg into psychological warfare and then later became, you know, the battle for hearts and minds.
- [89:14]
Jesse
Right?
- [89:14]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Psychological operations psyops or psychological warfare. That's not what weltanshangskrieg means. It means a war over the constitution of the world from out of human consciousness on a social level. And it goes back to German thinkers like Schelling, Friedrich Schelling, and also ultimately Nietzsche. Definitely Nietzsche's idea of perspectival conflict, that there's no unified God's eye perspective on the world. There is, of course, you know, God is dead, right? I mean, Nietzsche is the ultimate deconstructor of a theistic, monistic ontology. So there's no God to have a perspective on the whole world. And there's nothing like a God's eye perspective even in science. And science is always conditioned by culture and by politics. So ontologically, the world is. Is pluralistic. I think William James also made this point. He wrote a whole book called A Pluralistic Universe, which if you look at the ontology of William James's radical empiricism in his book A Pluralistic Universe, it almost completely maps onto Nietzsche's perspectival ontology. And I compared the two explicitly in Prometheus and Atlas. So you have this conflict of perspectives that brings about the constitution of what we consider to be the world. Heidegger, beginning and being in time and going into his writings on technology, he calls this the worldhood of the world. What makes a world of meaning for any people is not the same as how the warp and weft of meaning is brought together by another people. So there is a conflict of worlds over the earth, different worlds constituted by, let's say, what Jung might call the collective unconscious of a particular people. And by the way, this is a point that's often. I don't know whether it's overlooked or whether it's deliberately distorted in readings of Jung is that Jung did not believe in a single collective unconscious. Jung believed in a racially differentiated collective unconscious. And he's getting that idea from Hegel and Hegel's philosophy of mind. Hegel talks about the spirit of different races and how the spirit of different. It sounds crazy, but Hegel even thinks that the spirit of different races can shape the world geologically. In any case, I don't know that Jung would certainly take it that far, but Jung kind of got that idea from him and he developed it to where like for example, he predicted that the spirit of Wotan would erupt from out of the collective unconscious of the German people. And it did, right in the form of the rise of the Nazis in the Second World War. So Heidegger is saying that there's a war and very much lines up again with Nietzsche, there's a war of different worlds over the earth. So World War II is not what we think it is. First of all, all the deep Nazi thinkers did not see any difference between World War I and World War II. If you read, for example, Carl Schmitt, you see this, you read Heidegger, you see this. They say it's just the World War and the World War. The Great War never ended for us. The Treaty of Versailles was imposed on them. You know, they considered themselves to be like in a perpetual state of war for the world. And so you have to understand the term world war in a different way. It's a Weltanschaumskrieg. It's a war over the way that the world is going to show itself. It's going to come into presence, it's going to manifest. It's. It's a certain understanding of what I've called in my writings phenomenal authorization, where I've drawn a connection between three different ideas, authorship authority and authorization, and tried to explain how phenomena are authored and authorized in how they can take shape. And that that's the most fundamental form of sovereignty. That real authority is not like the authority of a civilian government that's elected or some bureaucracy. It's who has the authority to shape phenomena into a meaningful world at a fundamental level. And the people who developed what Otto Skorzeny was the master of in Germany, namely Weltanshangskrieg, they understood this. So it's not bizarre for these people to engage in a century of social engineering to set up then what they expect would be a thousand year imperium. If they had dropped whatever few nuclear weapons they had in 1944 on American cities, I can tell you exactly what the result would have been. Total war against the German people on the part of America. At the same time as they're still fighting the Soviet Union. Right? Who actually was the principal enemy of Nazi Germany responsible for most of the deaths in Europe. The Soviets are really the ones who defeated the Germans, to be honest. Okay. And so they've got Stalin coming at them from one direction. Now they're dropping nukes on their fellow Germanic, you know, your fellow European Americans. Now they're going to get the Americans, you know, interested in total war to annihilate them. Americans were also developing nuclear weapons. Best case scenario, I guarantee you, Jesse, they would not have ruled the world for more than two generations. Even if they had succeeded in defe militarily defeating America, there would have been a massive insurgency against them. The amount of arms that Americans possess personally, right, and then the amount of communist revolutionary fervor in Europe being backed by the Soviet Union, they would have faced a massive insurgency.
- [95:12]
Jesse
But is the implication that there's some sort of Nazi sleeper cell undergirding American politics today or fascist is a better.
- [95:20]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Way to put it. Fascist, fascist because not again. And here's another point. The neo Nazis hate this. These people aren't nationalists. So Nazi is a misnomer. Martin Bormann is not a nationalist. Otto Skorzeny is not a nationalist. These people create, first of all, to begin with, they weren't nationalists. They were looking for a kind of global imperium. Okay, they used nationalism and they used crass populism to create a power base for themselves. But you can see from how they're operating, especially after the war from 45 onward, that they're very much internationalists. They have a global vision, but they're fascists. And do I think that there's a fascist underbelly to America? Absolutely. I think that's the deepest substratum of the deep state that controls these black projects is absolutely fascist now.
- [96:09]
Jesse
But it was a nationalist movement. I mean, you had Wagner was very popular and Otto von Bismarck and you had this resuscitation of all this kind of German national pride free.
- [96:20]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Remember what we were saying about monumental history earlier? You need to monumentalize history if you want a substantive forward development. So if you want to create a thousand year Reich, you need a lot of cultural material for that. But I would hardly say that at least among the leadership of this movement that they were sort of like xenophobically German. No, they loved all kind of European civilizational heritage and they were interested in the Aryan heritage of places like Iran and India as well. They even sent people to Tibet to get the Tibetan scriptures.
- [96:56]
Jesse
So they sent them to Mount Kailash and they were looking for the Holy Grail.
- [97:00]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, they were interested. They had a very broad and deep conception of what they considered the Aryan heritage. It was not nationalistically German. They used the German nationalism to rile up masses and build a power base.
- [97:14]
Jesse
So do you think there was some Nazi non human intelligence or alien connection going on? Maybe. There's this guy, Peter Lavenda, for example, who writes a book called the Unholy alliance, where he talks about, we talked about last time, Nordic alien beings. Do you think that there was some sort of alliance between them and the Nazis? Because I guess that sounds quacky, but I'm almost even more likely to believe that than the idea that the Nazis writ large just threw their lot in with the US and sort of stopped fighting and made some, you know, really long time horizon calculated decision to perpetuate the Third Reich through some sort of sobra sub rosa ruling of their greatest adversary. Like, I just.
- [98:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think I agree with you. No, I agree with you.
- [98:04]
Jesse
The regime that would do that wouldn't fail and fight a two front war with Russia and then, you know, destroy themselves, Right?
- [98:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. Well, they're not mutually exclusive.
- [98:14]
Jesse
Okay.
- [98:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Do I think that they were in contact on some level with people who they knew would in some way affirm and complete this project? They were taking a great risk to forward. Yes, I think so. And there we need to look at these claims about the Vril Society and the Thule Society. So there are these claims that. That there was a group of mediums, I think mostly women, who were engaging in telepathic communication with basically a group of supermen, and that these supermen were sort of helping these occultists with both like geopolitical machinations and scientific breakthroughs. I haven't been able to find any evidence of an independently existing Vril Society, but there was a Thule Society. And the concept of Vril was very important to the Thule Society. Vril is this idea that Sir Edward Bulwer Lytton wrote a book about in 1871, I believe.
- [99:24]
Jesse
The Coming Race.
- [99:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And by the way, this guy's biography is insane. You should. What's his deal? Look at Edward Bulwer Lytton. At one point he was offered the crown of Greece and he declined it.
- [99:34]
Jesse
Really?
- [99:34]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, they offered it. He was a British gentleman, British aristocrat, super aristocrat, extremely erudite guy, obviously deep into the occult and traveled around a lot. And at one point they wanted to make him King of Greece. And he was like, no, man, I don't want the trouble.
- [99:47]
Jesse
Really?
- [99:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [99:49]
Jesse
And this book he wrote, the Coming Race Hitler was, I think, really into. And it was this book about like an underground civilization or something. Was this based on any sort of empirical evidence? Was from him, you know, in his journeys or whatever? Did he happen upon these people or something?
- [100:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
One can speculate, right? One can speculate that that might have been the case. But in any case, the Thule Society took all this very seriously. And the Thule Society, oddly enough, it was founded by this guy, Baron Rudolf von Zwattendorf, who was initiated in Kurdistan of all places. He was initiated into an ancient Iranian Kurdish order called Ahlahaq, who are basically like surviving Mithraists. Anyway, long story short, he comes back from Kurdistan through Turkey and he creates the Stool Gazelle shaft. Now, what is stul Thule is the Germanic conception of Atlantis. It's an island continent where a super civilization existed in vast antiquity, which these people, the Thule Gesellschaft, believed were the progenitors of the Aryan race. And by the way, they didn't make this up. Helena Blavatsky has this in her theosophical writings that the Aryan race came from Atlantis. I mean, this is one of the claims that, you know, she makes. And I believe that on some level, Steiner accepted it also. Although Steiner had a much more metaphysical, transcendental interpretation of what Atlantis was.
- [101:16]
Jesse
Yeah, well, he. I mean, I think he believed it existed. And then Rudolf Hess, who was in Hitler's inner circle, was a huge fan of Rudolf Steiner as well.
- [101:24]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And then the Nazis eventually considered Steiner to be their principal adversary, which is saying a lot because when you consider somebody your nemesis, it means that in a way, actually you're fighting over the same thing. I didn't know that you're fighting over the. Oh, they burned down the Gothenaeum. The Nazis burned down the first Gothenaeum because they thought that Anthroposophy could really become a rival to Nazism and to their vision for Europe and the destiny of the world and so on and so forth. Fascinating. Which, you know, it says a lot. In any case, the Thule Society was obsessed with Atlantis and excavating the Atlantean heritage of the Aryans, including the Germans, and essentially of creating a new Atlantis. Now, where would this island continent be? This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. If you're shopping while working, eating, or even listening to this podcast, then you know and love the thrill of a deal. But are you getting the deal and cash back? Rakuten shoppers, do they get the brands they love savings and cash back. And you can get it too, Stack Sales on top of cash back and feel what it's like to know you're maximizing savings. It's easy to use and you get cash back sent to you through PayPal or check. The idea is simple. The brands you love pay Rakuten for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the money with you as cash back. Download the free Rakuten app or go to rakuten.com to start saving today. It's the most rewarding way to shop. That's R a K u t e n rakuten.com which by the way, they associate the Germans associate it with ice and a frozen over place. And some Germans believed that it was the same place as Hyperborea. Some of them did. So if you look back at Plato's Timaeus and Critias and you know, read every one of the clues he gives us about where Atlantis was located, he says it is an island continent the size of Libya and Asia combined, which in the geography of the Greeks of his time meant a landmass the size of the Persian Empire. That's a big island. Okay. That's like the size of the continental United States. Okay. Okay. Then he says that it's in the world ocean and that from Atlantis you can, by going to Atlantis, you can cross over from one side of the world to the other side of the world.
- [103:46]
Jesse
Really?
- [103:47]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And it's in the world ocean.
- [103:48]
Jesse
Oh, wow.
- [103:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, we have a world ocean. It's where the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and the Indian Ocean meet in the coastline of Antarctica.
- [103:55]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [103:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Okay. And it is an island the size of Libya and Asia combined, as you put it, or sizes continental United States. And you can get to the other side of the world from it. You island hop through Antarctica, you can get from Africa to South America or you know.
- [104:11]
Jesse
Yep.
- [104:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And he also says that there's huge mountain ranges there. So. And then one other thing.
- [104:19]
Jesse
And it was destroyed by a great flood and it might have had sort of very livable conditions. Pretty the Younger Dryas period and Ice age, you know, a la Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson's work. And so literally, you know, Atlantis was destroyed in this great flood. And it's dated back. They say this was 9,000 in that mythos festival, Timaeus and Critaeus. That's 600 BC and they say this was 9,000 years ago and that's 9,600 BC, which is literally the end of the ice age. And this flood which ended the ice age was called Meltwater Pulse 1B.
- [104:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And I think the mechanism for that. So the dates match perfectly. And I think the mechanism for that was convincingly argued by Charles Hapgood. Charles Hapgood was a scientist who worked, I think, at. No, he might have been a historian, actually. He worked at Boston University, I believe, but he also was working on contract for the CIA. And he came up with this theory called Earth crustal displacement, where periodically the. This is to really, you know, dumb it down. But periodically the Earth would become top heavy due to glaciation, and this would cause the crust of the Earth to slip over the mantle by a few thousand kilometers and that pulls the ice out of the polar regions and the ice then precipitously melts. Okay, so this notion that North America was covered by ice during the Ice Age and that North America was where it currently is, but it was just covered by ice, is fallacious. According to Hapgood, it's that the North Pole was where Hudson Bay is today. And the reason North America was glaciated was because it was a lot closer to the North Pole. A lot more of it was closer to the North Pole. And by the same token, at that time, Antarctica was where Argentina would be today. So Atlantis would have had the climate of contemporary Argentina.
- [106:32]
Jesse
And I believe in the Piri Reis map, which was found in Turkey, that's exactly what it looks like. It looks like Antarctica has sort of shifted. And this is supposed to be some sort of, you know, pre ice age map.
- [106:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Not only that, those maps, at least one of them. I don't remember whether it's the Piri Reis or the Oronteus Phineas map, but one of them shows that Antarctica actually consists of two islands that are very close together. And this is in fact the case our subglacial topography has shown that it's not one landmass, it's two islands that are very close together.
- [107:06]
Jesse
Interesting.
- [107:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, yeah.
- [107:07]
Jesse
So clearly that also lends to its accuracy.
- [107:10]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Totally. And so whoever knew, whoever made those maps originally, and they may have been copied in the Library of Alexandria, whoever made the initial maps that have correct longitude and latitude on them also, which we didn't have at that time.
- [107:23]
Jesse
Also the conspiracy about Piri Reis is that the map looks like it shows the curvature of the Earth.
- [107:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [107:30]
Jesse
And this is well before Columbus.
- [107:32]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. So I think that those were copied from Atlantean maps at some point. Copied and recopied many times. Anyway, so the Nazis are looking for Atlantis, the Thule Geselschaftis. Right, the Thule Society. And Thule is their Atlantis. And by the way, one little interesting point there is that the Mayans have. You know, the Mayans have legends of Atlantis. They have legends of a great island, great island continent that was decimated by a flood and that its survivors took refuge there. There is this legend among Mayans which I believe Graham Hancock, among others, has cited in his work. And they have these two words that they use for that place. One is Atlan and the other is Tulan. Tulan sounds a lot like Tul. Tulan, right? Tulan. Atlan. So it could be the same word, even ultimately, or derived from the same word. Anyway, guess what the Nazis wind up doing in 1937? 38 Deutsche Antarctic Expedition. They send a ton of personnel down there. They even fly over the Transantarctic Mountains and drop swastika flags all over the landscape with, like, spears.
- [108:55]
Jesse
Why do you think they want?
- [108:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Because they figured out that this is Thule, that this is Atlantis.
- [109:00]
Jesse
The nominal reason, too, which is so prima facie, just absurd, is I think they said that they were going because of butter rations and, like, Antarctica was, you know, a source of margarine or something, to go explore it.
- [109:13]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Penguins, right?
- [109:14]
Jesse
Yeah, exactly.
- [109:14]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Pass on the penguins.
- [109:15]
Jesse
It's not even like a charismatic cover story. Like, it's, you know, that seems so patently ridiculous.
- [109:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You know, there's a book called Hess and the Penguins.
- [109:22]
Jesse
Oh, I didn't know that. Hess and the Penguins. Like Herman Hess.
- [109:26]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No.
- [109:26]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [109:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So one of the main guys they send to Antarctica is Rudolph Hess.
- [109:32]
Jesse
Oh, Rudolph Hess.
- [109:33]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And this Rudolf Hess, who they send to Antarctica a few years later, takes a secret unauthorized flight out of Germany, lands in Britain in a field, is met by British officers, and he says, I have orders to meet with Winston Churchill. And they go to Churchill and they say, sir, Hess is here. Like, you know, he flew up on an unauthorized flight here, and Churchill said, I don't want to see him throw him in prison. We're going to interrogate him. So then they interrogate Hess, and he says he had orders to secretly come to Britain and make a.
- [110:18]
Jesse
A.
- [110:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Not just a peace overture, but an alliance proposal to 30 members of the British Parliament who were favorable toward Hitler. So at this point, when Hess had made this flight, I believe Hitler had made three peace offers to the British, including an offer to ally together and to have basically the British Royal Navy and the Nazis become collaborators on a global scale. And so this was the final peace offering before the outbreak of hostilities. And who do they send? The guy who was in Antarctica.
- [110:56]
Jesse
What's the significance?
- [110:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, then here's the other thing. After the war, he remained in prison. They kept him in prison. So this guy didn't participate in the brunt of World War II. He was put in prison before hostilities break out with the British. They keep him in prison and then they send him to West Germany, where he winds up imprisoned to the day he dies, and no one's allowed to talk to him. They quarantine him. Rudolf S. Number one, why keep him in prison? What did he do? I mean, you know, he went to Antarctica, came back, tried to make peace with the British. This guy wasn't involved in the hostilities. Why even put him in prison? Number two, why quarantine him and not allow people to talk to him him and keep him there until the day he dies? What did Hess know? What did he see in Antarctica? What did he want to tell the British? That's an interesting question. What do you think about Atlantis? You think so? Yeah, I think that they got there and they came there with the express purpose of excavating what is there, what they believe to be there. And I think they found it. And there's a very interesting story that was told to Linda Moulton Howe by an AB seal who claimed to have been tasked with a mission in Antarctica. And he said that not far from McMurdo, they discovered a huge, like, I don't want to make up a number. It was very large black stone, octagonal, highly polished black stone, octagonal structure sticking out like 18ft above the ice. And they found a doorway to this thing. And the doorway was like 20ft by, like 20ft. And it slid open to reveal this octagonal, huge chamber that was illuminated. It wasn't clear from what light source with this pale greenish hue. And they started to investigate and they found that, that this complex consisted of one octagon underneath another. Oh, very important point. The door to the facility had a Schwarze Sonne inscribed on it, etched perfectly into this polished black stone. What is that was the black sun symbol that the SS had put on the floor of the main meeting hall in Wewelsburg Castle, where the highest order of SS Knight would need led by Himmler. So that same symbol, according to this Navy seal, was on the door to this octagonal facility. And they went and explored it, and they said it was octagon underneath octagon until the last lower level of it opened into antediluvian ruins into like, vastly ancient megalithic structures that were trapped by the ice, deep underneath the ice. So it's like something that was built there to give access to this you know, these, I don't know, the ruins of Atlantis, whatever. And I think the Navy SEAL also said that they found another way to get down there to the bottom of this, you know, pancaked octagonal structure by taking submarines under the ice, US submarines. So they found another way around to get to the same point and surface the sub inside this pocket it where like the octagonal structure met the ruins that are trapped in ice. So that's an interesting date. Now, you know, Linda Moultenhow has been fed disinformation by various people and Richard Doty and so forth. So who knows like whether this account from this Navy SEAL is more disinfo or not.
- [114:37]
Jesse
Are there any other corroborating stories?
- [114:41]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, there's Operation High jump. So in 1946, for whatever reason, we United States Navy sent a huge expedition of ships to Antarctica. And it's worthy of note that this happened immediately after we intercepted Nazi submarine traffic going to Argentina, right around Patagonia. Okay, so we intercept these German submarines and then Operation Highjump is fielded and Admiral Byrd goes down there with a huge contingent and they're supposed to be there for months studying Antarctica or whatever, and they come back in very short order badly damaged, many ships lost and personnel lost to whatever catastrophe. It's not entirely clear. I mean, they blamed it on weather conditions. And there are these stories that, I mean, there are literally stories like press clippings that when Admiral Byrd stopped at Chile, I don't know if it was Santiago, it was somewhere in Chile on the way back to the United States, at a port in Chile, he gave a statement to the Chilean press saying that we needed to prepare for a third world war in which aircraft could cross from pole to pole at tremendous pace speeds. So there's that. And then he was debriefed in Washington and never spoke about it again.
- [116:19]
Jesse
And then I believe his direct boss, a guy named James Forstall, who was Secretary of the Navy, then became Secretary of Defense, committed suicide in this sort of weird fashion.
- [116:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I mean, suicide my ass. They threw him out a window.
- [116:30]
Jesse
They threw him out of a window. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [116:33]
Jason Reza Jorjani
First they sent him to like, what was it, like mental health health hospitalization or something?
- [116:37]
Jesse
It was a Naval hospital, Maryland. And he was actually reciting or he was writing the Sophocles poem or whatever and he's like the mid sentence and his brother had just seen him the day before and said that he was totally fine and of sound mind. And then they found his bathrobe tied to the radiator and he had jumped out the window. The whole thing was sort of like really inexplicable and weird.
- [117:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think they killed him.
- [117:03]
Jesse
Do you think it was related to the Admiral Byrd stuff?
- [117:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yep, I was really the bird. It was really to basically the creation of the national security state through the integration of American military intelligence and industrial structure with the remnants of Nazi Germany.
- [117:23]
Jesse
Interesting. And then do you think, are there any other corroborating facts around Antarctica possibly being this kind of Atlantean bastion? I mean, is the idea that like, like there is some sort of like Atlantean surviving remnant group that's still there? I mean, it is interesting that Antarctica is a no fly zone. As of 1957, the International Geophysical Year.
- [117:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There have been skiers who were putatively exploring Antarctica for sport who have had black helicopters descend on them and they were told that they are in an area that affects the national security of the United States and that they're going to be immediately evacuated.
- [118:08]
Jesse
Really?
- [118:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And now there shouldn't be an area that affects the national security of the United States legally, because according to the Antarctic Treaty, Antarctica is like a neutral zone. Yeah, right. I do suspect that the principal subterranean submarine location for these Nordics who we discussed in our first conversation is Antarctica. That's what I suspect, that if the Atlantean civilization was destroyed there by some precipitous flooding and you know, Antarctica being pulled into the southern polar region so that it froze over. Oh, I'll tell you another interesting corroborating piece of evidence in a minute. So that it froze over. Look, if we're dealing with this super advanced civilization that had like zpe, you know, propulsion, of course they had underground facilities. You know, Antarctica is full of mountains. It has mountains of rival the Himalayas. Those people would have built facilities inside mountains and underground, those facilities would have survived. So there would have been Atlanteans who survived in these facilities.
- [119:20]
Jesse
I think it's even speculated now by climate scientists and geophysicists that there could be subterranean parts of Antarctica with pretty warm climate.
- [119:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Lake Vostok. Ah, that's a specific huge thermal vent.
- [119:34]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. I also think Richard Byrd, Admiral Richard Byrd talked about pyramid. And the pyramid you can spot like I have a friend who went down there and I think he was making a documentary or something and he saw this sort of black pyramid.
- [119:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There's a picture of it. I've seen a picture of it.
- [119:51]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was on Google Maps and then I think it got deleted off Google Maps. Or something, big scandal. But, like, you know, I have a friend who's, like, not into UFOs at all and, like, went down to Antarctica.
- [120:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And he can see it. He saw it.
- [120:02]
Jesse
You could see this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like a real thing. So I don't know. It's interesting.
- [120:09]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. Now, the other thing I was going to tell you is corroborative of this, is that. And we got into this just a little bit in our first conversation, the flood myths. Right. So there's a version of the Noah's flood story in every culture on Earth. Okay. Which makes it pretty certain that it happened. There's only one myth that's different. It's the same event, but it's a different type of story. That's the Iranian version. So in the Iranian version, which is preserved in the Avesta, the ancient Iranian scriptures, originally Mithraic and then Zoroastrian scriptures, it says that the Iranian people, which you have to understand, like, when they're using the term, they're using the term Aryan people, you know, like I said, in the Parthian period and before the country was called Aryano. So in the Avesta, it says that the, you know, Aryanim, the Aryan people, come from an island continent at the center of the world which froze over. Over. Froze over.
- [121:13]
Jesse
Really?
- [121:14]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. Interesting that it was basically ice came and engulfed it, which is like a tsunami that then freezes. Okay. So all the cultures all around the world have flood myths, but this one culture says that we come from an island continent which froze over and it's at the center of the world. Well, if you, you know, where you consider the center of the world is arbitrary, if you're living in Antarctica and you notice, by the way, that all the other continents are distributed around you, like Plato said, at center of the world ocean, you're liable to consider yourself the center of the world.
- [121:50]
Jesse
Sure.
- [121:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And one other interesting point in that regard is that although the majority of Antarctica prior to this, you know, Younger Dryas catastrophe, although the majority of Antarctica would have been where Argentina is today, part of it was already in the southern polar region. So it would have been a place like Patagonia, where there was a place on Atlantis where you come up against the ice sheet. Right. Now, that's interesting, because center of the world, it could also be taken to mean the north of the world or the pole of the world. And in fact, in Iranian esotericism, they do say this about this place, that it was the pole of the world, the north and south poles of the world flip magnetically at various intervals, long intervals, but not that long. If we.
- [122:49]
Jesse
I say it's like 9,000 years or.
- [122:51]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think it's longer than that, 10,000 years. I think it's longer than that. Yeah, but you know, Edgar Cayce now, you know, that's all right. Rabbit hole. But you know, various mediums have, have looked at Atlantis and who have and have said things about Atlantis and they describe a civilization that went on for tens of thousands of years, which then was brought to this catastrophic end about 12, 000 years ago. Right. Now, if Atlantis existed for tens of thousands of years, was a thriving civilization for that long a period of time, it would have been when Antarctica was the North Pole of the world, the northern magnetic pole. So when people talk about hyperborea, the land at the north of the world, and the Germanic people, the Germanic people on the Thule Gesellschaft say that Ultima Thule was the northern continent. It fits with when the magnetic pole was in Antarctica and when part of Antarctica was already in the pole, but most of it was where Argentina is today. So all of that somehow I think is corroborative.
- [123:53]
Jesse
Hmm, very interesting. You do have like a lot of very high net worth people going down there occasionally. Bill Gates likes to go down there. I have no idea. He's probably not commuting with aliens or something, but that is interesting. There's a lot of kind of very wealthy tourism.
- [124:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, Well, I think we're going to find out what's there.
- [124:16]
Jesse
You do?
- [124:16]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, very soon, unfortunately.
- [124:18]
Jesse
Why?
- [124:19]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Right. So a number of remote viewers have remote viewed the year 2050. One group was led by Stefan Schwarz and Lynn Buchanan, also did the same project of remote viewing the world in 2050. And other people as well. But these are two very prominent ones. And they all say that there's going to be a catastrophic, precipitous sea level rise. Not the kind of sea level rise you expect, like a few feet from global warming or whatever. Climate change? No, no, no. And not just a tsunami like you would expect. Another thing that Lyn has talked about is Combre Vieja exploding on Las Palmas and you know, the flank of that volcanic mountain and collapsing into the Atlantic Ocean, which then would create a tsunami that would batter the east coast of the United States. Right. And he thinks that that may happen at some point. And by the way, when it was going off, I was in communication with him being like, Lyn, do you think this is it? Like, should I leave New York? I was in New York and he's like, you know, I'd say 50. 50. You know, you should get your ass out of there. It's like a coin flip, coin toss at this point anyway. But not like a tsunami. Okay. Permanent sea level rise of between 2 to 300ft, meaning every coastal city in the world is going to go underwater by 2050. Every coastal city in the world. That would affect about 4 billion people.
- [125:50]
Jesse
But I don't know, there are all these predictions in UFO space around 2027.
- [125:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I'm just telling you, the remote viewers all see this. They see that all the coastal areas of the world have gone deep underwater.
- [126:01]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [126:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You know what would have to happen for that to be the case? The Antarctic ice sheet has to melt. Completely. Yeah, completely. Which means two things. One, it means that there's some massive event that, you know, high energy or something, whatever that causes that, or a geophysical event of the kind that took place 12,000 years ago. In other words, another crustal slippage that pulls Antarctica back out of the southern polar region.
- [126:31]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [126:31]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And then it melts precipitously.
- [126:33]
Jesse
Or an asteroid.
- [126:34]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Or an asteroid could hit Antarctica and melt the ice sheet all at once. Break it up into ice cubes and then melt it quickly. So. Or who knows? I mean, what, like, I hope nobody's storing fusion bombs in Antarctica.
- [126:48]
Jesse
Okay, well, there's that guy, there's the Eric Hecker guy who says that there are, like, neutrino detectors and emitters on the South Pole that Raytheon and the US and aerospace primes are, you know, running, and that. That even caused the Christchurch earthquake in New Zealand. And I don't know what to make of him. He's a very odd character. I invited him on my show and he got kind of squirrely and fell off.
- [127:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I mean, Nikola Tesla describes having used tectonic weaponry in his laboratory. He caused an earthquake in Manhattan.
- [127:21]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [127:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
The police broke down his door, you know, and they had to take a sledgehammer to the thing.
- [127:26]
Jesse
Well, some people have this conspiracy that Tesla, the Tunguska 1908 Siberia asteroid impact was actually just a Tesla death weapon that was being tested near the North Pole. I don't know if you've ever heard that conspiracy.
- [127:39]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I certainly have heard it. But, you know, I heard an even more interesting explanation of Tunguska, which fits with what we've been discussing and what we discussed in our last conversation.
- [127:48]
Jesse
Because the conventional. Or I don't know if it's a conventional explanation, but the Graham Hancock explanation is that it's a comet airburst from the torrid meteor stream and that explains the impact with the local trees and the crater and that sort of thing. But. Yeah. What do you think?
- [128:01]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So one of the remote viewers trying to remember which one it was, I can't remember right now which one it was one of the prominent people who worked on Stargate and Grill Flame. Not like some kook. It was one of the primary remote viewers. I almost want to say it might have been Joe McMonagle, but I can't remember exactly which one it was. Anyway, he said he remembers remote viewed the Tunguska explosion and get this.
- [128:26]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [128:27]
Jason Reza Jorjani
He says it was people in a saucer. People in a saucer who were escaping the civilization they come from because it was a totalitarian, oppressive place and they wanted to leave. And they didn't know that there was an explosive timer on the thing so that. Not a timer, an altitude based explosive device so that if they came down below a certain altitude, the thing was going to detonate. And so it had been like pre. Pre mined with an explosive that they weren't aware was on board. And then they found out about it and he says they went around the planet a few times, like trying to figure out what. What are we going to do? Like, we can't go down. And finally they went down and they exploded. And that's what caused the Tunguska blast. This is what he claimed. I'll tell you why I find that story interesting thing, because a remote viewer who I had personal contact with another, you know, military intelligence guy. I'll just tell you who it is. Who cares? Lyn Buchanan.
- [129:28]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [129:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
When we were having some conversations at his home, he told. And what I'm about to tell you is very relevant to all of this in a very like, gravely political way.
- [129:41]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [129:43]
Jason Reza Jorjani
He said that he was confronted at a diner that he eats at regularly by three men. It's funny, these stories often involve three men encounter with three men. Three men who purported to be from this Nordic civilization. And he said that there are rebels among them who consider the society that they come from to be an oppressive totalitarian hierarchy. And he said that there's something like the underground Railroad, like, you know, that facilitated the liberation of black slaves from the south into the north during the Civil War, that there's a system that they compare to the Underground railroad to facilitate these Nordic rebels taking refuge in America in particular so that their children and grandchildren could enjoy the liberties of our society and escape their oppressive totalitarian system. And he said, in particular, a lot of them live in the Colorado Rockies, in small towns in the Colorado Rockies.
- [130:52]
Jesse
He said this?
- [130:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [130:53]
Jesse
Really?
- [130:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
He said these men told him this.
- [130:55]
Jesse
Really?
- [130:55]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. Listen to the rest of this. So he said, they live in, like, small towns in the Rockies and they pass because they look like tall Scandinavian people. I imagine a lot of their kids are on the basketball team. And so he said, look, we know that Kit Green at the CIA has some program to access the 23andMe and like whatever Ancestry.com databases through some backdoor and that they are screening the entire whoever signs up for these services for a specific genetic variance from the normal Homo sapiens population, which the CIA knows to be the genetic marker of these Nordics. And they said, look, our children, especially our grandchildren, have no idea where they're from. We tell them stories about how, like, their grandparents are from Sweden or whatever and they don't know, you know, we just want them to have lives of peace and liberty here in America. But the CIA wants to hunt them down. And would you. And this was why they met with Lyn. They said, would you please go back to these people, people and tell them we are not trying to take over your government. We just want to live here in peace and to please leave our children alone. Okay, so this is a story that he told me. And what I said to him was, look, if these people next time. And it was very interesting. He said two of them sat down with him and one of them stood next to the diner booth as if, like he was not just on the lookout, but as if he was like, creating some kind of a shield around the conversation. And so I said to Lyn, if these people come back next time, could you please tell them that instead of, you know, selfishly seeking a life of peace and comfort and liberties for their children, they should help us to carry out some kind of a coup against this fascist deep state that we have in this country. Because if they don't help us do that soon, these liberties that they came here for aren't going to exist anymore and they're going to be living back under the system that they escaped from. So they should get in touch and there should be some kind of a coordination to work on the American deep state together so that this kind of a system that they want to. To want to benefit from continues to exist.
- [133:27]
Jesse
How's that effort going?
- [133:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Crickets.
- [133:32]
Jesse
Interesting. Well, I've. Anecdotally, I've heard some very interesting and weird stories around Nordic looking people in the Rockies.
- [133:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So I Have too. I have too. From other people. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [133:47]
Jesse
It's interesting. So do you think that this, like. Okay, so of. Let's just. We're in crazy territory right now, but do you think, you know, if, if these Atlantean survivors are camped out in Antarctica now, what do you think they want with mankind? Do you think if there is any relationship between them and the Nazis?
- [134:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
A hundred percent.
- [134:06]
Jesse
So were they trying to sort of imminentize the Eschaton, kind of the Eric Vogelin like, you know, they were trying to bring about some sort of apocalypse or like what did they want? Like, why would they. I mean, you would assume they're kind of nefarious. If they are partnering with the Nazis or are they good or is it like way more complicated than that? And good and bad are just like human constructs that we're trying to apply to a paradigm we don't understand. What do you think their intent is?
- [134:33]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's an Ouroboros.
- [134:35]
Jesse
What does that mean?
- [134:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's the snake that's biting its own tail. That alchemical symbol of the snake that's biting its own tail. The biggest problem, and I saw this in some of the comments in response to our first conversation, the biggest problem that people have with wrapping their minds around this is the, the element of time. If we're dealing with a time traveling civilization, it means they have a hyperdimensional relationship to human history. Okay? So if you, I mean all these people have these weird taxonomies of 43 different alien species and 10 different kinds of Nordics and the tall white. Charles hall talks about the tall whites and he talks about The Norwegians with 23 teeth. 24 teeth. Yeah.
- [135:19]
Jesse
Okay, look, that was the most insane interview I've ever done. I don't know what to make of it.
- [135:22]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It. Here's the problem. Let's look at it on a conceptual level. Leave out the aliens for a minute. Let's look at time travel on a conceptual level. If you have this scientific breakthrough to where you can engineer time machines from that moment forward, at any point in the future, you could travel to any point in the past, right? So if some group of Nordics, whether it's literally the Nazis or whether it's a group of people with a Nordic phenotype at some other point in history, maybe In Atlantis, maybe 100 years into the future, some group of people with a Nordic phenotype cracks time travel. That means that there are Nordics 10,000 years in our past, coming from a hundred years in our future. It Means there are Nordics a hundred years in our past, coming from 10,000 years in our future. It means there are Nordics walking around here today that come from a million years into the future, presuming they're able to survive for that long. Right? So the differences in physiognomy that we see between, let's say, whatever the tall whites, or let's say the Nordics who could pass for Swedes, may simply be differences in evolutionary biology having to do with very long stretches of time that we're seeing different phases of the same civilization. Now that civilization may also have fractured, like Asimov's foundation, where humanity's expanded into the cosmos and colonized thousands of planets. So the civilization may have bifurcated or trifurcated or whatever, okay? And we may be seeing different phases in its evolutionary biological development, but they may all have had the same origin and the same culture, that breakaway culture. Auf Bruchkultur. Breakaway culture that first cracked time travel. That's something that I think people have a hard time wrapping their minds around and will help to make sense out of a lot of these. The insane cases that we. We see. Like I'll give you one example, Ryan, case of Reinhold Schmidt, okay? He was this American from where was he was it. Can't remember. It was one of the states, like the Dakotas or. I can't remember. Anyway, not a highly populated area. Guy from the country and Reinhold Schmidt, I want to say Nebraska. Anyway, this is cases from 1957. And he's out driving and his car dies. And there are two other cars and a tractor that are also taken out by the EMP of this ufo. So there were multiple witnesses. And these people independently reported the incident to the police. But Reinhold Schmidt is the guy who. They engage the people who come out of this saucer and they bring him aboard. He says he was engaged by two men. Then when he was brought into the saucer, there was another man and two women also. The ship was from the outside, a complete solid piece of aluminum or highly polished steel. Upon entering, the ship is entirely different. It is transparent. You would look up, see the sky, look down, see the grass below you, or see the entire countryside.
- [139:05]
Jesse
How many people were in the machine?
- [139:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There were six people, four men and two ladies. Did they look like us? Yes, they looked. If they would see them on the street, you couldn't detect them unless you had seen them on a ship. Did they tell you what they were doing here? No, they did not. I asked them what they were doing here. What kind of a ship it was. And they said they couldn't tell me that at this time. And he says, they didn't know Reinhold Schmidt. They didn't know I had German ancestry and I spoke German. This guy learned German at university. So not only did he know some German from being of German ancestry at that time, like a quarter of America's population were of German ancestry, but he also had studied German at university. So this is what he claims. He says, I realized these guys were speaking in high German to each other. Hoch Deutsch, which the SS used to use as a mark of distinction. And he said they asked him whether he knew anything about the American satellite program. And he said, I don't know. Why would I know anything about the American satellite program? And then he said, they went on to predict a number of failures that the US Satellite program would have in those early days when we were competing with the Soviets, really Sputnik, and Soviet worth. And then they dropped him off and he went about his business.
- [140:18]
Jesse
Isn't there some other example of this with Betty and Barney Hill famous abduction case in 1961, this interracial couple, you know, it's kind of the archetypal abduction case. Wasn't there some sort of Nazi connection there?
- [140:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And see, this is one of those cases which has been warped by people where, like, people have, like, they've. They've embellished the folklore and reworked it into where these were, like, monstrous aliens. But I believe that what you're referring to is that if you look back at Barney Hill's original statements, and when they first asked him, what did they look like, he said, well, they look like Nazis.
- [140:52]
Jesse
Really?
- [140:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, well, they look like Nazis.
- [140:54]
Jesse
You saw him through this window, or.
- [140:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You said there were a row of windows? It was a row of windows, just a huge row of windows only divided by struts or structures that prevented it from being one solid window, or then it would have been one solid window. And the evil face and the. He looks like a German Nazi. He is a Nazi. Did he have on a uniform? Yes.
- [141:51]
Jesse
How many other abductions are like that where they say they look like Nazis?
- [141:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I haven't seen that many.
- [141:57]
Jesse
Okay.
- [141:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
But the important thing is that there are such cases. Oh, I'll tell you something else interesting in that regard. So one of the comments in response to our first conversation was from the daughter of Desmond Leslie.
- [142:14]
Jesse
Who's that?
- [142:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
She commented to me on my ex. So George Adamsky co authored his first book, the Flying Saucers have Landed, with this guy Desmond Leslie, he was like a. Not a ghostwriter, but like a collaborative author.
- [142:29]
Jesse
Right.
- [142:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Who would help people write books. And she reached out saying that she's the daughter of Desmond Leslie. And she said, in our family, her father always said that it was Nazis who contacted Adamski.
- [142:48]
Jesse
Really?
- [142:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And they were pretending to be Venusians and that. Yeah. So he helped Adamski write this book where Adamsky claims these people are Venusians. And they claimed they were Venusians or some of them come from Mars. And whatever he said that we always knew it was Nazis who were pretending to be Venusians. They had, like, you know, disguised themselves and created a theatrical psychological operation to present themselves as if they were extraterrestrials.
- [143:12]
Jesse
This is so bizarre. But there are a couple other interesting stories. One is, you know, Paul Mellon was one of the founders of the CIA. There's a story that he told his grandson. This guy who's still alive today is John Warner iv.
- [143:24]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes.
- [143:24]
Jesse
And I guess he's having some martinis with Paul Mellon. And, you know, in his third martini, Paul Mellon says, In 1944, I was in modern day, you know, Czech Republic. And I was. Or is it Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia? Czechoslovakia. Okay, Czechoslovakia. And in the course of his third martini, he says that in 1944, I was in modern day Czechoslovakia, and I was there with Alan Dulles. They were on the. Some tech retrieval mission, and they were standing on top of a flying saucer.
- [143:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And my grandfather said, look, you know, we. We were in a facility, a hangar, and we saw, you know, a German flying disc.
- [144:03]
Jesse
And I said, you know, oh, is.
- [144:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines? And he laughed and he said, no.
- [144:13]
Jesse
And so that's a really interesting fact as well. And that then Harold Malmgren, bringing it back to the top, said that the magenta craft was actually exfiltrated from Italy via the Nazi rat lines, which people like Reinhard Galen were helping to kind of orchestrate. And it was by the Knights of Malta. And Reinhard Galen was part of this Monte Carlo group, which was this kind of elite of the elite Knights of Malta faction, which is fascinating. And this faction comprised both Nazis, people like Reinhard Galen, and Jews like Henry Kissinger.
- [144:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yep, that's right. And Otto Skorzeny is working with the Mossad in the early 1970s.
- [144:55]
Jesse
And Skorzeny was also part of this Knights of Malta faction.
- [144:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, I was invited, by the way, to join the Knights of Malta at one point.
- [145:01]
Jesse
Why do you think you were invited? Because you started to brush up against their.
- [145:04]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Oh, for sure.
- [145:05]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.
- [145:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And I declined.
- [145:07]
Jesse
Why'd you decline?
- [145:09]
Jason Reza Jorjani
First of all, I was being invited to participate in some kind of initiation ritual in Malta. And I happen to know that the fellow who invited me had a track record of recording people involved in sex acts and using it as blackmail material.
- [145:25]
Jesse
Jesus.
- [145:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And so forth. Okay? So I was not about to go to Malta. And besides, by the way, it's just that kind of thing. Okay. And he was a member of a dozen different secret societies, this guy, at a high level, including the Knights of Molto. I would never join any such organization. Just for the record, Masons tried to get me at one point. High level Masons wanted to bring me in. I will never join any such organization because at the moment you do that, you lose your independence. So anyway. But we all love a legendary comeback. And Degree Original Cool Rush is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent. It's a movement, a fan favorite that delivers bold, fresh vibes and all day sweat protection. Whether you have a man that spends hours in the gym, heads into the office early, or is just trying to stay fresh on a long day, Cool Rush has their back. Head to your local Walmart or Target and grab Degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand. Absolutely. This stuff. I've heard the same stuff about Dollis and, you know, witnessing the saucer and Czech salakia and so on and so forth. The interesting thing about Allen Dulles, which I think we briefly did touch on in our first conversation, is that. Oh no, it might have been actually when we were on the phone. Allen Dulles and his brother, John Foster Dulles funded the rise of the Nazis together with JPMorgan Chase and Rockefeller from out of New York.
- [146:55]
Jesse
Yeah, so did Prescott Bush.
- [146:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Oh, yeah. And so look, the point is this, that in a lot of ways both pay per clip and the absorption of the Galen Network were a homecoming. M It's almost as if Nazi Germany was set up as a field laboratory to do some highly unethical things which would then be harvested back to America.
- [147:15]
Jesse
So is your. And then is your world model or mental model, something like. There's like an elite strata and these are the names we're throwing out now. You know, people who come from, some of whom come from these older families, some of whom are just like, you know, the kind of elite ruling class of the United States that might be coordinated with, either incidentally or deliberately with this sort of non human faction, or not even Non human faction. You don't like that word, this sort of Nordic overlord?
- [147:48]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, yes, but the faction or something. Yeah, but it's even more of a tangled web than that. You see, because of the time element that I was talking about. It could be that some of these elites have had contact with these Nordics for a long time. But there's another possibility too. It's a possibility which you know, I speculatively investigate in Closer Encounters, and that's that these elites become the Nordics. That if you look at how obsessed these people were with eugenics, I lay it out in Closer Encounters at length. How many of these elites in America, in Britain, in Germany, but people think that, like, somehow the Nazis came up with eugenics? No, they were playing catch up. The Nazi leadership was saying, like, these Americans are going to dominate the world with all their eugenics programs. We better like, catch up fast. The world leader in eugenics from the 1890s until the 1930s was United States of America.
- [148:42]
Jesse
Yeah, well, and then they got it from people like Cecil Rhodes and, you know, a lot of, you know, 19th century phrenology and that sort of thing. Yes.
- [148:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
But when you look back at that era, all the top scientists, the top political decision makers, federal judges, and certainly the aristocrats were ardently pro eugenics, Even like Margaret Sanger and people who you think these days are associated with the left and like Planned Parenthood and all that, they were ardent eugenicists. Now, if you combine eugenics, in other words, the will to create a master race together with occultism. Right. Early psychical research and cultivation of occult abilities together with exotic propulsion technology, it converges on what the Nordics become. So for all we know, I said Ouroboros earlier. Right. What's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is contacting itself in the past and reinforcing itself in.
- [149:47]
Jesse
The past and trying to pull the timeline towards itself or something, to actualize itself trans.
- [149:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Temporally actualize itself. Yes.
- [149:54]
Jesse
It's very interesting. And so do you think there would be competing factions like the Nordics would be fighting against other possible timeline variants that want to actualize them?
- [150:04]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think that's who the Asuras are. So we have throughout all of human mythology this account of. Of rebel gods or rebel angels who break with the program. Right. And Sanskrit texts call them the Asuras, the Greeks call them the Titans, but they're in every mythology of the planet, it's always this rebel faction that exists that's trying to break free from the control system. So Yes, I think so. And you know, I think Lyn's story is another corroboration of that. That there's people who don't like the program and they don't like the society there for from.
- [150:41]
Jesse
But I don't know, this idea that the Nordics or whatever are this homogenous sort of, you know, one world authoritarian, you know, government, you know, these, these sort of perfect people who've been eugenicized to no end and then they're fighting this sort of rebel angel faction. Doesn't that feel too clean? Like what if they're factions of the Nordics that are good or whatever? Yeah, I just don't know, you know. Or do you think that.
- [151:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think here a statement that Peter Thiel made when he was being asked about the close encounter phenomenon on Rogan is very relevant. If you have faster than light travel, there's something really crazy that has to be true on a cultural, political, social level. And there may be other solutions, but I'll give you my two. One of them is that you need complete totalitarian controls. And it is like it is the individuals they might be might not be perfect, they might be demons, doesn't matter. But you have a demonic totalitarian control of your society where it's like you have like parapsychological mind meld with everybody and no one can act independently of anybody else. No one can ever launch a warp drive weapon. And everybody who has that ability isn't like a mind meld link with everybody else or something, something like that. You can't have libertarian, individualistic free agency.
- [152:24]
Jesse
Right.
- [152:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And then I think the other version, socially and culturally is they have to be like perfectly altruistic, non self interest. They have to be angels. And so the Pazalka literal thing I'd come to is the aliens. It's not that they might be demons or angels. They must be demons or angels if you have faster than light travel.
- [152:52]
Jesse
Yeah, he's basically saying it's either angels or demons, angels.
- [152:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And that's the language you use, which I take exception to that angels or demons, because I think maybe in a Nietzschean fashion the moral evaluation there needs to be flipped. That the angels are the ones controlling the totalitarian, hierarchical, mind melded, hive minded system, by the way. And you know, I used to teach comparative religion in all the Abrahamic religions. One thing that they consistently say about the angels is that they have no will of their own. The angels have no real individuality, they have no real will of their own. They do the will of God, which Like, binds them together with a single purpose. That's like a totalitarian society controlled by an AI. Okay, now I'm gonna go somewhere really.
- [153:37]
Jesse
Disturbing with this, but an angel just means messenger generically, you know.
- [153:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Exactly. Evangelos and the Hebrew original meant the same thing. And so like, for example, the angels who come to Abraham, they're three men. And they did look particularly beautiful because the one who goes to Sodom to retrieve lot, the lecherous men want to have sex with this guy because he's so good looking. And by the way, the Nordics are known for that. And they're known to be like super good looking people. They look like supermodels. Basically. Colonel Alexander, when he told me the story of the couple of Nordics that he saw in the casino hotel in Las Vegas, he said they were like that too. They were like out of the pages of a fashion magazine. Anyway, place I want to go from there about the angels and angelic hierarchy. And you know why, in fact, it would be so simple. You said it seems too simple. Gods versus Titans, right? Devas versus Ashuras. No, for the reason Teal gave you would have exactly that bifurcation. And it would be a very black and white conflict between an extremely repressive, hierarchical, totalitarian society that allows for almost no individuation. And on the other hand, individuals who don't want to live in such a world and who are trying to find a way to carve out some space of freedom, but who have the same technology. And so the disturbing place I want to go from there is relevant to the subject of my latest book, which is a study of the afterlife death, the transitional state Tibetans called the Bardo state, and rebirth evidence for reincarnation. So and so. And in the course of researching this book, I've looked into a lot of cases that are filtered out of the hippie dippy woo woo narrative about near death experiences. In particular, one of the most famous is an account that Robert Monroe, you know, who founded the Monroe Institute and so forth, that the CIA used to use sometimes as a place to conduct advanced remote viewing. Robert Monroe, in his second book, Far Journeys, I think from 1985, basically says that in the course of his astral projections, he discovered that we're living in a control system that is managed by entities who work for a demiurge that's harvesting us for what he called louch. He said that we're in a louche farm, that humans are being deliberately subjected to conditions that create extreme emotional states, extreme suffering, misery, Fear, terror, ecstasy, extreme desire, pathological impulses. And these are all being used to basically generate a form of energy that they can harvest from the human soul, including after death, where they basically juice souls for the loosh. Now there was also a researcher called Carla Turner who I believe was killed even though she supposedly died of cancer at the age of 48. The CIA has something that mimics a very fast acting cancer and they've used this on a number of occasions to kill prominent people, I believe, also including the Shah of Iran.
- [157:20]
Jesse
Really? Yeah, who else?
- [157:23]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Do you remember Peter Jennings did this special on UFOs do you remember that? In the night, whenever it was that he died. Shortly before his death he did this.
- [157:34]
Jesse
Huge.
- [157:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Special on UFOs for which he had recorded like, like days and days worth of footage with all kinds of prominent whistleblowers and it was supposed to air on primetime television. Is that true with him as an. Yeah, they aired it, but what they aired excluded 90% of the material.
- [157:53]
Jesse
I didn't know that Peter Jennings did a UFO special including a lot of whistleblowers.
- [157:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Extensive.
- [157:59]
Jesse
I had no idea.
- [158:00]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Like it was supposed to be like a multi part program that would air over weeks or something. And he records this thing, gets cancer, drops dead. Really like within a year of like this program airing.
- [158:12]
Jesse
I had no idea. I didn't know about any of this.
- [158:14]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [158:14]
Jesse
What? Yeah, that's like Walter Cronkite 2.0.
- [158:18]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That's right. So that's another case of it. What? And so I think Carla Turner was killed by this. In any case, Carla Turner did interviews with a lot of ex experiencers, abductees who reported the same kinds of things as Robert Monroe did in Far Journeys where they said that we are in a control system that's being managed from out of a metallic sphere just beyond the earth. And they describe the inside of this thing. What? I think going back to our first conversation, what they're describing is the inside of the moon. That there is a, what we might call using the Soviet language, a psychotronic control system. A kind of spectral technology inside of the moon which is impinging on and manipulating humans in the afterlife state.
- [159:14]
Jesse
What?
- [159:16]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And it's not omnipotent, it's not a flawless system. So it's possible to assert your free will and self determination in the face of this system, but it's very difficult. So a lot of people have had near death experiences. For example, they describe being pulled toward this light. It's like they couldn't resist going into the light. They tried in some cases, but it was almost as if it was an electromagnet. Like pulling them into it.
- [159:43]
Jesse
Sure.
- [159:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And then when they go into the light, one of the most common things that's described is that people are shown their dead relatives and religious authority figures like Jesus or like, if you're a Hindu, you see Hindu gods. Interestingly, I'll give you a terrifying case from a Hindu in a minute. So you're pulled into this light and then they show you your dead relatives and they show you Jesus and whatever. Well, here's the problem, Jesse, is that if you look at Dr. Ian Stevenson's extremely rigorous research on reincarnation that he did at the University of Virginia for decades on children's spontaneous memories of past lives, all the cases show that the average interval between death and reincarnation is something like. It could be anywhere from six months to three years maximum. It's usually not more than several years. So when you are having a near death experience and your grandmother, and let's say you're in your 60s or yeah, in your 60s, and you see your grandmother who died when you were in your 20s, that's bullshit. You are being shown an artificially generated simulacrum of your dead relatives to manipulate you by a psychotronic technology.
- [161:07]
Jesse
This is getting.
- [161:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
By a psychotronic technology.
- [161:10]
Jesse
You really think that?
- [161:11]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes, I do.
- [161:11]
Jesse
Really.
- [161:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And I say that as someone who, who was, you know, at the bedside at the deathbed of a couple of my relatives who were experiencing these things. You know, when people are very close to death, they also see dead relatives come around their hospital beds very commonly reported. And so in the case, one case was my great aunt or I was there while she was like describing to. Not just not describing to us. She was having conversations with dead relatives that, you know, the other family members knew. Oh, that's so and so. She's talking to so and so as if he's like inauthentic hospital room. And the most striking case was with my own grandmother, my Persian grandmother, to whom I owe the fact that I fluently speak Persian because both of my parents worked when I was growing up and they would leave me with her during the days. And she hardly spoke any English. So I learned Persian practically as my first language in New York. So I was very close to my grandmother. And when she was dying, this exact thing happened. She started talking to my dead grandfather. Now my Persian grandfather died when my father was four. Okay, that guy reincarnated 60, 70 years ago. So she's talking to something that's being projected into our mind psychotronically.
- [162:21]
Jesse
But how do you know it's being projected psychotronically and it's not just a function of her own old age and sort of.
- [162:27]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I mean, that's the conventional skeptical response, I would say, based on what Robert Monroe described in terms of the terrain of the afterlife through his astral projections, which then other people at the Monroe Institute were able to replicate. And based on the kinds of accounts that, let's say Carla Turner got from abductees of being taken to places that were not just like, you know, like space alien bases, there were places where the soul was being hanged, handled as some kind of an informational matrix and or energy source. This.
- [163:03]
Jesse
I mean, John Lear would say that there's like a soul catcher on the moon, but he also was kind of crazy and would say a lot of stuff that, you know, probably was bs I guess.
- [163:13]
Jason Reza Jorjani
My point is we don't need to depend. I've heard that, by the way. I've heard him talk about that. My point is we don't need to depend on him. Other people have said this. And let me give you one more example of somebody who's described this is. Hmm, God, I hope I don't get this name wrong. Scott Turner, or Scott. Scott Trevor, or Scott Turner was a leader of a team of remote viewers. And these are private sector remote viewers, I think of the kind who offer service, corporate services and stuff like that, who did a remote viewing on the word moksha. Moksha. So what was in the envelope was moksha the target they were blind to? Moksha means liberation in Sanskrit. It's like how you get out of the wheel of Samsara. And so he does this session with his team, and long story short, he comes back with this horrific account. All of them do, of course. They're all working the same target line to the same target. And they're all doing this independently. And then they compare notes and they said that you can't achieve moksha because as you try to escape the earth, there's something that grabs you and bends you back toward the earth. Like if you're a ray of light, it's like it bends the light that's your soul back toward the Earth, like, what do you call them? A lensing effect. And he said it's originating from some celestial body near the Earth and that it is part of a vast machinery of energy extraction which was set up in our solar system at the end of a war that devastated the solar system. He said that, like millions of years ago. There were these horrendous people who wanted to establish this energy harvesting system here and wanted to exploit humanity for this purpose. And there was a rebellion against them. And the conflict was waged across the entire solar system. Now this is interesting in terms of what we discussed regarding Mars in our first conversation and the apparent devastation of Mars in some kind of a nuclear, nuclear war, according to Dr. Brandenburg. So Turner and his group said. Turner, Trevor Scott, Whatever this remote viewer, it's going to be in my new book Thanosis, but you can find it. Google remote viewing. Moksha People were so disturbed by the video that the guy took it down. He has all his other videos up, but he took this one down. But other people uploaded it to other sites. And so he says, because the rebels who wanted to like preserve human freedom and self determination, didn't want humans to be harvested and exploited this way, they lost the war. And ever since then we've been inside basically this prison where we are spiritually manipulated and harvested for our energy. When we originally described this site, it's a fence or a grid around a place. This acts as a barrier. It collects and traps people, things or objects. This is actually an innocent planet that is being used in an unintended way. And this meters the flow and acts as a checkpoint and an access point for an external force. One viewer described it as similar to hocus pocus in a way of its energetics that the viewer wasn't familiar with. And it's occurring on a crowded planet. It's a deliberate function that acts as a cage. People have been dispersed here and a form of perverted injustice is occurring. Third viewer described it as a large naturally formed object like a planet that acts as an animal pen. This is a refugee camp tucked away out of sight and a magnetic force. It stirs, agitates, and it works in a cylindrical manner like clockwork over a long expanse of time. In my session, my work described a planetary system that's extremely crowded and jammed. Ghostly voices are flooding into this place and it's incredibly harrowing for them. It's a bone chilling experience. As a viewer, when I remote viewed this, I had descriptions that made me upset in the session. It elicited contempt for what was going on at the site. But the activity at the site was this concept of, of a net that's been spun and it's an operation of catch and release on a grand scale. So there's a massive grid that exists around this planet and it acts as a checkpoint, a waypoint or rest stop where souls are Drained. And then that in turn energizes something else.
- [167:48]
Jesse
That's so depressing. I mean, how do you have, Is there any aspirational streak within that? Do you believe in God? Do you think? If you.
- [167:55]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I believe in Prometheus. In other words, the reason that Prometheus has become such a central archetype to my philosophical project is because if you look at the structure of this myth, it encompasses all the major elements of most religious belief systems, but in a way that's empowering to humanity. So for example, in Promethean myth, we're not created by Yahweh or by Enlil or by whatever celestial tyrant wants to loose harvest us. We're created by this genius like artistic spirit who rebelled against Zeus, right, Because he thought Zeus was a sadistic tyrant. And we're created by him, in his image, to be a race of new gods. And the only reason that we, we don't wind up fulfilling that destiny is that Prometheus is punished by Zeus, right, and chained in the Caucasus and has his liver devoured. What does the devouring of the liver mean? The liver was used for fortune telling by the ancient Greeks. It was like crystal ball gazing. So they believed that they could read the future by like, you know, looking into the blackness of the liver by candlelight and so forth. So what that symbol means is that the ego of Zeus wants to know what Prometheus knows. So not only were we created by this, you know, positive spirit, also Prometheus knows more than Zeus and can see further than Zeus. So our creator is more knowing than the sadistic tyrant. And our creator wants to cultivate in us the same kind of forethought, the same kind of visionary creative capacity. Right. In Aeschylus's writings and in various Greek texts on Prometheus, it's very clearly understood that the fire that Prometheus stole from the forge of Hephaestus and Olympus and brought to humanity is a symbol of techne. Techne meaning both craft in the sense of the arts and craft in the sense of technological science, where we get the word technology from. So it's a means of human empowerment. Right?
- [170:14]
Jesse
But wouldn't you say a lot of modern technological progress is not empowering at all? And in fact it sort of clamps down on human flourishing. And so like you have, you know, the American Prometheus would be Oppenheimer and created, you know, a nuclear bomb.
- [170:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
How do you know he didn't give us the means to defend ourselves? Right. Why are these Nordics obsessed with disarming us of nuclear weapons. The only defense that we would have against such a civilization, if indeed it's lording over us, is precisely our nuclear arsenal.
- [170:46]
Jesse
So you think. But then couldn't you sort of, if you really had like 360, you know, control over the world, wouldn't you be able to sort of like pit people against each other? I mean, in a world of mutually assured destruction, you end up with this kind of weird, like, holding pattern of geopolitics where tensions are rising, but people themselves are sort of, you know, in these sort of Orwellian farmhouses or something, and they're sort of withering away. And so that doesn't seem particularly empowering.
- [171:17]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Maybe a short, quick answer to that. But then I want to answer your.
- [171:20]
Jesse
Bigger question, or even information technology might be.
- [171:23]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I want to answer your bigger question about the misuse of technology. But just quick, short answer to that one. I think the reason that we destroyed the Soviet Union, which I consider the worst mistake ever made by the United States.
- [171:35]
Jesse
Why do you think that's the worst mistake?
- [171:37]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Is because the Soviet Union and the United States could have and should have and would have eventually combined their forces against these Nordics. I think that what John F. Kennedy wanted to do and what his brother RFK was going to resume as policy was an alliance with the Soviet Union. After all, remember, we had fought the Nazis together with the Soviet Union, was an alliance with the Soviet Union where we would both go to the moon together. And if necessary, we would both defend the freedom and independence of humanity using nuclear weapons together against this threat. And as bad as some people think Communism is, I mean, I'm no fan of, I'm no communist, I'm no fan of Communism, but look at the Soviet cosmism and how progressive it is.
- [172:28]
Jesse
But JFK was trying to defang the American nuclear arsenal. So if you. He actually viewed the Nordics as some sort of threat, he was trying to disarm.
- [172:36]
Jason Reza Jorjani
In no way do I believe for a minute that JFK would have been one of these total nuclear disarmament people. I don't buy it.
- [172:42]
Jesse
You don't think so?
- [172:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I don't buy it. I think he would have built an alliance with the Soviet Union where our respective arsenals are not principally aimed at each other. But remember, going back to Ian Fleming and Spectre, I think JFK figured it out, or had it told to them by Eisenhower that there's this third power.
- [173:01]
Jesse
In the world because he had these back channels with Khrushchev and this guy Norman Cousins, who was A family friend was going back and forth, and the rumor was that he wanted full detente and disarmament.
- [173:13]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And he wanted to go to the moon with the Russians.
- [173:15]
Jesse
Yeah, he wanted to do some sort of cooperative space program, but that. Yeah, but still, the nuclear disarmament part would go against some sort of belief that. That, you know, we were trying to defend ourselves against some alien.
- [173:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
In any case, the reason I think that it was the worst mistake we ever made is because there are far worse things than Soviet communism, and Nazism is one of them. In my view. In my view, that kind of, you know, SS fascist mentality. Yeah, it's worse than Soviet cosmism and like what Constantine Tsiolkovsky wanted for the future. Future of mankind. I mean, in my view.
- [173:52]
Jesse
Well, I think that Cielofsky stuff is interesting, but the. But the. I mean, this communism, you know, both are horrible, but Communism killed more people.
- [174:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I know it did.
- [174:03]
Jesse
Way more global.
- [174:03]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And that's not necessarily the measure of the ethics of a system.
- [174:07]
Jesse
Okay.
- [174:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Like, for example. So I don't want to linger on this for a very long time, but I'll give you a very short short. Okay, Suppose that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria had metastasized and we weren't able to contain it. And that, let's say, they succeeded in toppling the Saudi royal family. And you saw recently how Saudi Arabia and Pakistan made this strategic alliance where now Saudi Arabia is protected by Pakistan's nuclear weapons. And besides, it's been rumored for years that Saudi Arabia paid for Pakistan's nuclear weapons to be developed, so they have Saudi barcodes on them. So suppose ISIS succeeded in taking over the, you know, Riyadh and then subsequently Mecca and Medina, and then they wind up with Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, and we get this metastasizing Islamic state in the world. Right. Well, you know what? It would be necessary to go to war with that thing, and a lot of people will be dead as a result of that. Now, is that because of the evils of American liberal capitalism? No, it's because we had to deal with a very difficult problem. Problem. Okay. And we would be doing it to defend human freedom and progress. From their own perspective, the Soviets considered themselves to be the standard bearers of liberation from oppression and progress, including scientific and technological innovation against forces of regression and tyranny.
- [175:31]
Jesse
Right.
- [175:32]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And, you know, to give them some credit, look, they put women in space before we did, okay? So I think that this decision to dismantle the Soviet Union was horrendous. And I Think it was very deliberate. And guess who was behind it? Well, a principal figure, I mean, behind the death blow. Because look, it's one thing to keep them as an enemy. It's good to have them as an enemy. You want to have good rivals, who.
- [175:57]
Jesse
Would you say is behind them?
- [175:58]
Jason Reza Jorjani
We have a shit rival today. China is a shit rival to have because it is a collectivistic, hive minded, Confucianist, regressive, traditionalist society fundamentally. It's no longer Maoist, by the way. I mean, you know, it's morphed into some kind of national socialism. That's extremely Confucianist and collectivist. That's a shit rival to have. You want to have a rival that makes you the best you can be. And the Soviets were that. We kept each other on our toes.
- [176:31]
Jesse
Yeah. Now we're in all these sort of bad had games, local games with the Chinese where it's like the AGI race, you could say the modern academia in the US is kind of like the Confucian bureaucracy or something. You know, I think a lot of people care a lot about IQ and like, you know, genetic engineering, like, which is, you know, probably not the race you want to be, you want to be running or whatever. You know, you could think of social media in the US as like the aversion of the social credit score or something. So there are a lot of these weird analogs.
- [177:00]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [177:01]
Jesse
That, you know.
- [177:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Right.
- [177:02]
Jesse
Yeah. It's not great. And then like, you know, in, in kind of the COVID paradigm, like they have a surveillance state and then it's like, you know, now we have one.
- [177:11]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Exactly. So the Soviets were a good rival. They were a good rival. We should have kept them as that instead of like this retarded traditionalist Russia that we have now. Orthodox neo orthodox czarist system under Putin. This is a disaster. And it was done deliberately. And who dealt the death blow? George H.W. bush. Whose father, Prescott Bush, was one of Hitler's men in America. Okay. So. And of course he was the head of the CIA. George H.W. bush was one of these American presidents who actually had full access to the UFO file because he had been briefed when he was deep in the deep state. Okay. And there's connections, you know, from him to the Kennedy assassination.
- [177:55]
Jesse
And so yeah, he went missing when Kennedy was assassinated. And then he was supposed to brief. I, I think Carter wanted him to brief him on UFOs, but then he wanted to be, you know, made director of the CIA, which he eventually was made director. Director. But like, you Know, there was this sort of quid pro quo thing there.
- [178:11]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And I believe it's been since confirmed that he was in Dallas. He was in Dallas once.
- [178:14]
Jesse
He definitely was in Dallas, I think. And I think he met with everybody on Clint Murchison's ranch or something around that time too. And yeah, I mean, it would have made sense. He was like the Skull and Bones kids who he was in with, you know, James Jesus Angleton. He was a Dulles acolyte.
- [178:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And yeah, you know, he's the second politician to ever use the term New World Order in a speech.
- [178:34]
Jesse
Interesting.
- [178:35]
Jason Reza Jorjani
The first being Adolf Hitler.
- [178:37]
Jesse
Really? Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating.
- [178:40]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So that's who dealt the death blow to the Soviet Union. And I think it was a huge mistake.
- [178:46]
Jesse
That's really interesting. So you think that was part of some sort of One World Order plan or something?
- [178:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, absolutely.
- [178:54]
Jesse
Fascinating. Well, I don't know. I mean, they say that it was like the priest, the general and the businessman or whatever. It was an alliance between multiple different factions in the US that united the country against communism at the time. But you're saying that George H.W.
- [179:13]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Country was always united against communism. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have had the Soviet Union as a rival.
- [179:18]
Jesse
You're saying the escalation and the escalation in the 80s.
- [179:22]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah. And the decision to really collapse the system. System. The Soviet system, which by the way, what we did to bring that about was horrendously unethical. Namely the creation of Al Qaeda, the United States, creation of Al Qaeda in Pakistan to send them into Afghanistan to make something viable from out of the Taliban to fight the Soviets in a protracted war of attrition to demoralize the Soviet citizenry and bankrupt the Soviet Union and eventually collapse the system.
- [179:54]
Jesse
But wasn't that, I don't know, an example of like the. A triple bank shop gone wrong or something like, you know, that is true that like we trained the Muhajideen and trained Osama Bin Laden.
- [180:05]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There were multiple kinds of mujahideen, like some of them. Ahmad Shah Masoud, leading the Northern alliance, was a decent guy and the CIA killed him right before 9, 11. Okay. We wiped United States, wiped out all the moderate elements in Afghanistan and sent in Al Qaeda to train all the most rabid Islamic fundamentalists. And. And did this for the explicit purpose of defeating the Soviet Union. As if a Soviet Afghanistan would have been a bad thing. Afghanistan becoming a province of the Soviet Union would have been the best thing that ever happened to the Afghan people. Interesting, you know.
- [180:36]
Jesse
Yeah. And that this was like Charlie Wilson's war or whatever. And what was it, 79 or.
- [180:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, 77. 77. 79, yeah.
- [180:46]
Jesse
Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Who is David Paulides?
- [180:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
David. Okay, so. Okay. Well, one of the most disturbing aspects of the close encounter phenomenon is its intersection with missing persons cases. So there's this researcher, David Paulides, Politis Pauletis. I think it's politis. David Paulides, who has written a whole series of books called Missing 411. Missing 411 series of books, exhaustively researched. He's been to all the national parks in the country, which, unbeknownst to most people, are hotspots for disappearances of large numbers of individuals go missing in our national parks. And the devil's in the details of these cases because you have to look at how well trained some of these hikers or hunters are who disappear and leave their provisions behind.
- [181:52]
Jesse
Yeah. Like sometimes folded perfectly intact, uneaten food. Yeah.
- [181:56]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So presume if they were, there's no remains. Not like a bear ate them or something. And, you know, if they were starving out there for days, you expect that their candy bar wouldn't be left or whatever, you know, and they leave their weapons behind and. And their stuff is littered over large distances in some cases. Some of the worst cases are ones involving children where, like, a child will go off a trail at, let's say, a summer camp that's on the edge of a national park, and the child will go missing. And then the child's body will be found thousands of feet higher, but not until months later. So the search services will come in and they'll scour the entire area. There won't be a single trace of this kid. Then, like, after a hiatus of weeks or months, remains of the kid will be found, but, like, at a much higher elevation, like, it was dropped there.
- [182:56]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [182:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Okay. And long story short, I mean, I cite this in some detail in Closer Encounters, David Politis, various books, but he discovered a connection between this and Close Encounters, where in the same areas people will go missing. People saw UFOs. And he also discovered that the feds have case files on this and hiding them.
- [183:22]
Jesse
Interesting.
- [183:23]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Federal authorities, particularly the FBI, has a whole, like, archive of this type of material which they are keeping secret of people who have gone missing in national parks and potential connection to the close encounter phenomenon. And one of the most interesting things about this is temporal disorientation. So, for example, there's one case where some young woman, not everyone goes missing. Sometimes they go in the twilight zone. For 48 hours. And they come out.
- [183:55]
Jesse
Yeah. Travis Walton is a classic example.
- [183:59]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That's right. So one woman went into a forest and she got lost hiking and couldn't find her way out. And she's there for what seems to her to be, I don't know, a day or two, something like that. Like many, many hours. Many, many hours. And then eventually she finds her way out, and people tell her she's been missing for a lot longer than she perceived. And she tells them when she was in there, she ran across one other hiker who was also lost. And for a while they were fellow travelers, and then they decided to part ways and both independently try to find a way out. She describes this other woman that she ran into while she was lost. The description fits someone who went lost, who went missing there like a decade or more ago and was never fetched.
- [184:51]
Jesse
Hmm.
- [184:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You follow?
- [184:53]
Jesse
Mm.
- [184:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So it's like there's a local spatio Temporal vortex where this poor girl who this hiker ran into had been there for like a decade.
- [185:05]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [185:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And she was still trying to get out.
- [185:07]
Jesse
Suspended in time.
- [185:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And this hiker got out, and the other girl that she ran into while she was in the forest never did. Okay. Which sounds like the Bermuda Triangle, but.
- [185:16]
Jesse
On land, these mountains exist everywhere. This one in Zimbabwe, actually, near Rua, where the famous sighting occurred in the 90s. In fact, I wanted to go and I asked a friend who's in touch with local authorities, like, hey, can my friend go hiking on this thing? And they were extremely, you know, like, serious about, like. No. The mist tends to descend on this mountain and people consistently go missing. And all of the authorities are aware of that. So that's pretty remarkable.
- [185:45]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yep.
- [185:46]
Jesse
And so you think it's some sort of like trans temporal suspension?
- [185:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And the other thing that's consistently reported in these cases where the person is found eventually or they can make it back out of the pocket.
- [185:58]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [185:59]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Or there's another interesting type of cases where it's more than one person. Right. It's like a group of hunters, and one of them goes missing and the others come back. And the ones who come back say right before he disappeared, right before Charlie disappeared, there was no sound. All the insects went silent. It was like we couldn't hear a leaf moving.
- [186:21]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [186:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Which is exactly what people describe around UFOs.
- [186:23]
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's also often like an. Almost like a local inertial reference frame that's different. And there's like time warping involved. Like, Travis Walton was fully shaved and he Came back four days later with a full beard.
- [186:37]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes.
- [186:38]
Jesse
And so there are things like that, or the trees tend to grow faster around, you know, the UFOs, which goes.
- [186:45]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Back to what we were talking about in terms of the people Bell and what they encountered.
- [186:48]
Jesse
Yeah, well, these places seem like kind of vortexes, energy vortexes or something. Mount Kailash is an example. I think Sadhguru went and said that his fingernails grew faster on the mountain or whatever. There are a few of these all around the world. Sedona, Arizona is a classic example. You have some places in Washington, Tacoma, Washington. Skinwalker Ranch would be an example, maybe in Utah. And all of these places seem to have electromagnetic anomalies as well. Well, geomagnetic anomalies. Okay, who is Roger Colloi and what's his take on the devil?
- [187:25]
Jason Reza Jorjani
So I don't want to give the impression from a lot of the things that we've discussed that somehow I only focus on the nuts and bolts aspect of Close Encounters. Of course, you know, my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, is basically a philosophical study of parapsychology. And so it deals with the whole plethora of evidence for the occult. And it's obvious that you can't separate Close Encounters from the occult. Even in the case of these Nordics, they appear to be people with adept esp. They're extremely highly adept psionics, you know, psionically capable people. So in that sense, even when you're dealing with the Nordics like Adamski or, you know, Billy Meyer was dealing with them, there's an element of the occult there because also perceptions can be manipulated by, you know, adept telepaths and by people with telekinesis with highly trained pk. But there's a whole other. There's a whole other type of cases. There's a whole other set of cases that, as I suggested in our first conversation, simply cannot be encompassed by this nuts and bolts interpretation of Nordics flying around in electrogravitic devices, where it looks like we're dealing with some kind of a super psi AI that's able to manipulate perceptions on a large scale and manifest sort of transmogrifications of phenomena like to be able to produce all kinds of shape shifting mirages and, you know, metamorphosing apparitions of the kind that John Keel focused his research on. You see it in his study of all the weird happenings at Point Pleasant and Mothman case in particular, and you see it throughout the Men in Black literature. How bizarre. Some of these cases of Men in black are. Did we get into that at all in our first conversation, the men in black?
- [189:49]
Jesse
Not too much. I'm curious to get your take on the men in black.
- [189:51]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, well, like for example, this guy, Was it Otto Bender who wrote the Saucers and the three men. Do you remember? No. Albert Bender. Albert Bender. Albert Bender. So this guy ran a flying saucer research bureau. And he claims that while he was doing his research for, you know, whatever the UFO articles he would come out with in his periodical, these three men in black materialized in his attic. And he said they. He said they had glowing orange eyes and they smelled like sulfur. And they took him to some. They teleported him to, believe it or not, an underground base in Antarctica. This is what he was told, that he was in Antarctica all of a sudden. And they told him some things about, I don't know what they do there and what their concern is with the Earth. Gave him probably some bullshit story like they gave everybody and then they brought him back back. Then subsequently, he said he was in a movie theater and he noticed, like, these guys, like all of a sudden materialized in some row of seats behind him. And then they. Then he got scared and left the theater and they like, followed him some ways down the street back toward his home. During the time when John Keel was in Point Pleasant investigating the Mothman and the various UFO sightings there, there were also men in black who would all of a sudden, like, show up outside the journalism bureau that there, the main newspaper there, and come and have stalker type conversations with the newspaper reporters trying to ascertain information about Kiel. They would show up to the houses of witnesses and claim they were associated with Kiel, when in fact they weren't.
- [191:34]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [191:34]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And all of them were bizarre looking, like they didn't look human and they didn't act human. They looked like poor simulacra of human beings. And they would speak as if either they were in a mesmeric trance or as if someone was broadcasting what they were supposed to say to them with a lag. Right. And I really got to thinking about this when I was writing Closer Encounters and comparing it to the stuff that happens at Skinwalker Ranch. We talked about this during the first conversation. I think the instance of the camera that had all the duct tape taken off, point being that enough things happened at Skinwalker Ranch for someone like Colonel Alexander to formulate what he called precognitive sentient phenomena. In other words, he came to believe that there was a singular intelligence at work on Skinwalker Ranch that had a Precognitive ability and a psychokinetic ability where it was able to anticipate what the researchers would do and manipulate them from out of this foreknowledge and engage in basically, like, you know, physical manipulation of things without being seen.
- [192:48]
Jesse
Right.
- [192:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Almost as if it's recoding the world on the base information physics level.
- [192:54]
Jesse
Right.
- [192:57]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And Jacques Vallee talks about this also in his book on the crash that took place right after the Trinity test, the Trinity book. He says that these praying mantis looking creatures, the Mexicans who ran into them described them as looking like praying mantises. They said at least their heads they were bug like and their heads were mantid shaped. Vallee says that he thinks that the object that crashed is some conceptual hybrid of the casing of the Trinity bomb and the casing of one of the bombs that we dropped in Japan. I forget it was Little man or Fat Boy.
- [193:44]
Jesse
Whoa.
- [193:45]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Fat man or Little Boy. But he said it's like this object made no sense when they went into it. They didn't find sufficient scientific equipment.
- [193:53]
Jesse
Explain avocado shape.
- [193:54]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, it was like an avocado shaped thing. But he looked at the shape of it in comparison to what the Trinity bomb looked like and what one of the bombs dropped on Japan looked like.
- [194:02]
Jesse
Like.
- [194:02]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And the fact that there wasn't enough scientific equipment inside this thing for it to be a viable flying object of any kind. And he speculated as to whether the thing was coded to materialize on an information physics level in a way that was meant to send a signal to us regarding the development of nuclear weapons, the Trinity. And then the bomb dropped in Japan, and what stepped out of this were mantid type creatures. This is all to answer about Roger Talwell, but I have to set it up. All right, so a number of people have seen these mantids, including Terrence McKenna. There was one instance where one of McKenna's girlfriends had taken, I forget too much of a certain drug. I don't remember if it was dmt, if it was LSD or what it was, but she was way too high on something and she seemed to be fading out. He thought he was gonna lose her. And as she was dying, she saw. And so she lived to tell the tale.
- [195:07]
Jesse
Right?
- [195:08]
Jason Reza Jorjani
She saw. So he's looking at her and, like, trying to tend to her. And she sees up above and behind Terrence McKenna, a huge. A UFO made of energy. And it's close enough, and I guess the dome is big enough that she can see that mantids are in it. Okay. Energetic mantids. And I forget what happens, but somehow, like, he does something that brings her back to life. And like, there's some huge reaction from out of these mantids. Then there's the case of. Of Tehran. Ted Owens was a psychokinetic adept who. He tried to garner a lot of attention. He tried to get the attention of the US Government. He wanted them to use his psychokinetic powers against the Soviet Union. And he got really aggravated that they weren't taking him seriously. So he would do really literally incendiary things in order to get noticed and be taken seriously, like start forest fires. And supposedly he could, like, direct lightning bolts.
- [196:15]
Jesse
Yeah. Jeffrey Mishlove, who wrote a biography of him. Yeah. Mr. P.K. or P.K.
- [196:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Man. P.K. man.
- [196:22]
Jesse
The P.K. man. I think he was on the phone with him and he all of a sudden, you know, like, stopped being able to breathe or something because he said that Ted Owens was trying to cause this on the other end. And he also was kind of. You know, we all talk about Chris Bledsoe now. You know, I don't know exactly what's going on there. I think he's a really nice guy, but a lot of people think he sort of attracts UFOs systematically. And that's what people thought about Ted Owens, too. That he could sort of attract the phenomena systematically. UFOs would kind of follow him around.
- [196:50]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And he was able to at least predict, if not summon UFOs and then have them be detected on radar. Okay.
- [197:00]
Jesse
And I mean, this would be the whole Jake Barber, like, what Skywatcher is trying to do with, like, human psionic.
- [197:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Aspect right now, just to underline the seriousness of this case, at one point, he. He was in an airplane and he was bragging to some stewardess about a magazine article that, you know, that had been written on him, that he was reading. And, like, she wasn't taking him seriously or something. And so he wills the plane ahead of them to crash, and it does. As a civilian airliner crash kills a whole bunch of people. What they have received here at Jamaica hospital, they received 14 survivors from the plane crash, most of them Norwegian tourists who had been on a trip to.
- [197:38]
Jesse
The south and the southwest and were.
- [197:40]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Heading home for Norway. Okay, so the guy was a murderer. Okay. He killed a lot of people.
- [197:45]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [197:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Including. There's suspicion. I mean, Mishlove took it seriously that he may have caused the Challenger crash because. Yes. Well, when the US Government wouldn't take him seriously, Ted Owens wrote a series of threatening letters to the US Government saying that he's gonna target the space shuttles one after another. Name them. He named them in the letter, all of them. The Enterprise, the Atlantis, the Challenger. And he said he was gonna start with the Challenger. And next thing you know, the Challenger explodes. And shortly after the Challenger incident, Therons drops dead.
- [198:16]
Jesse
Really?
- [198:17]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah.
- [198:17]
Jesse
What, so do you think he really had all this power?
- [198:21]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Now here's the thing. So why am I even bringing up this story? Yeah, he said he got his powers from mantids. He said there were these mantids, believe it or not, not. Why is this shit also absurd? I'll tell you why. I think it's why the absurdity is being crafted in the way that it is. He said he got his powers from these mantids called Twitter and tweeter.
- [198:39]
Jesse
Okay?
- [198:40]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And that this Twitter and tweeter were like in a saucer. And they had decided that Owens was the most promising psychokinetic adept since Moses. They knew Moses, you know, they were gonna make like another Moses out of him. And, you know, he decided the fate of nations and all this bullshit. But yes, he said he got his powers from these mantids kids. So these men. Okay, now here's the cream of the crop case, which takes us right into Calois and surrealist art. Roger Calois was a great French surrealist. The case of David Huggins. So David Huggins was a, I think, New York based artist. He's from the south, but he wound up eventually living in New York City. City. And back when he was in the south, when he was growing up, from childhood, he had all these encounters with mantids and he claimed that the mantids were in charge of these little greys and also these weird hybrid beings who would show up and interact with him. And he eventually claimed to have developed a relationship with one of these hybrids and to have been taken aboard their craft and shown a whole bunch of fetuses that were grown based on, you know, I guess, his having inseminated this hybrid woman. And he was also taken to places underground where he said the mantids were in charge. Like places like, it clearly seemed to him he was underneath the surface of the earth, cavernous, you know, rocky underground places that smelled like dirt and earth. And the mantids were in charge of olaus. Now what's particularly interesting in the case of this guy is that he's literally an artist. So the output of this case winds up being this tremendous body of artwork. That's bizarre. It's. There's something childlike about it. But there's also erotic aspects of it. And. And it's a very interesting expression, at least on the level of folklore. So why did I go through all of this about the mantids? Because if you read the writings of Roger Calois, one of the early French surrealists, he made a great deal out of the symbolism of the praying mantis. One of his friends, Paul Elouard, another of the founding surrealists, have this insane mantid collection in his home. And Caloa came over at one point and was like, what the. What is all this? Like, why do you collect these bugs? And so he explained to him, you know, what the mantis signified to him. And then Kalua did a lot of research into it, European folklore, about the mantis being a trickster and a sort of shamanic instantiation of the devil, that diabolos. Diabolos in Greek means that which sets things into a state of contradiction or dynamic tension. So the diabolical, in terms of its Greek root, diabolaine, means setting into a state of dynamic opposition, dynamic tension in.
- [202:04]
Jesse
A way that causes growth.
- [202:06]
Jason Reza Jorjani
There you go. So to look back at the Hegelian dialectic, which we discussed a little bit in our first conversation, you know, Hegel thought that thesis and antithesis at all levels in society, from the psychological to the political, the opposition of a thesis and an antithesis created the dialectical synthetic motor of history moving forward. Right. And that all novel structures emerge from out of this kind of dialectical opposition. And also, setting into a state of dynamic tension can mean creating conundrums, puzzles, seeming absurdities that force the mind to the limit of its capacities and that ultimately demand a growth of human cognitive faculties. You see, because if you're grappling with a problem that has no solution because it's deliberately absurd, you may figure out all kinds of other things along the way. You might not solve the problem, but it will engage your cognitive and aesthetic faculties in a way that's liable to lead to an increase of capacity, a refinement of perception, and an expansion of imagination, of creative imagination. So if you look through folklore, as Kalawa argued, the mantis has been associated with this, apparently. So I found that very interesting. I also put that in Closer Encounters next to cases where people say they saw grays turn into owls and they saw what they believed were owls turn into grays when their screen memories were subjected to analysis under regression hypnosis. There's a whole plethora of cases I'm forgetting. Is it named maybe Mike Cleland, a guy who wrote a whole study, two books on this, on owls in the close encounter phenomena. And David lynch clearly knew about this because if you watch Twin Peaks, you know, one of the most important koans, Zen koans in Twin Peaks is the owls are not what they seem. Radically sweet, surrealist. David lynch is a modern American surrealist. And if you. So there's a lot of engagement with shamanism in Surrealism that involves the symbolism of the praying mantis and symbolism of owls. And of course, the owl is also symbolic for wisdom, right? But also misfortune. The, you know, the expression heads or tails comes from Greek coins that had an owl on the tail of them. They had Athena's face on the front of them and they had the owl on the backside of them because the owl was Athena's creature and so tails was, you know, the owl. So it's like this ominous symbol. And in Persian culture, by the way, same thing, the greatest modern Persian novel, the Blind Owl, is a work of surrealism. And, you know, the central symbol is the owl. It was written by a guy, Sadeq Adayat, who was the Persian translator of Franz Kafka's works. And you see this all over Kafka, particularly in the trial. I wrote an essay interpreting Kafka's trial that's in my anthology, Lovers of Sophia, where basically I make the case that Kafka is describing a spectral bureaucracy that Kafka knew. And the key to this is you have to read his blue Octavo notebooks. He has these notebooks called the blue Octavo notebooks. When you set those next to the trial, it acts as basically a key for understanding this Kabbalistic text. And you realize that Kafka knew to go back to lush farming, that we're living inside some kind of a. An oppressive, convoluted, shady, scummy, angelic bureaucracy. It's like a spiritual control system. And there's ways to beat it and, like, outsmart it and maneuver around it, but it's very labyrinthine and very difficult.
- [206:25]
Jesse
What's the relationship between the devil and Prometheus, the rebel angels?
- [206:30]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Right. So from a Judeo Christian perspective, the bringer of the light of technological science and a champion of humanity against a godfather figure is going to inevitably be identified with Lucifer. And in fact, just on etymological terms alone, Lucifer is a fairly decent Latin translation of the idea of Prometheus. So if Zeus in the Greek pantheon, or let's say Enlil in the Sumerian pantheon, can be identified with Yahweh and According to Jesus in the canonical Gospels, he is the son of Yahweh and he's been sent by Yahweh. Well, then Prometheus is the rebel against Yahweh, meaning Prometheus is Satan. Okay, now that's obviously a Judeo Christian prism of interpretation. And there would be an Islamic one too, where you have, you know, the Islamic account of who Satan is, which is also very interesting, by the way, because in the Islamic account, Iblis or Shaytan is the leader of a group of beings who are called Jinn. And the Jinn were humanoids made before man precede the Adamic race. Adam is used in Arabic, just like in Hebrew. Right. And so the Adamic race is subsequent to an earlier race made not of clay but of fire. Beings made of fire. Again, connection to Prometheus. And. And according to the Islamic version, Shaitan refused to bow before Allah's creation, namely Adam, because Adam, from the perspective of the Jinn, was inferior to them. And Iblis was like, why should I bow to this inferior creation? You just want me to bow to this thing? Because you're a tyrant and you want a lord over me and over all the angels and all the Jinn. And by showing us that we have to be subservient to something that's actually inferior to us. So out of pride, Iblis doesn't bow. Right. Anyway, so from a Judeo Christian and Islamic perspective, the Promethean is the Satanic. Now, if you look at it from Roger Talois perspective, it's a very different picture. Or if you look at it from the perspective of the founders of the Surrealist movement, like Andre Breton, Max Ernst, Max Ernest and Paul Ellward, these guys, from the beginning of, even from before it took the name Surrealism, were constantly engaged in occult rituals, including long seances in the course of which some of them would become possessed. And there were even physical attacks that took place, like some of them would, you know, there were attacks of some of them on other ones. It was a shit show. There were intense erotic encounters that took place in the context of some of these rituals. And the first time that Andre Breton ever even mentions the word surrealism. Surrealisme to refer to what undergirds reality and that from out of which a reality even emerges from the depth of the subconscious. The first time he ever uses that term is specifically in a 1922 essay article about the occult. And he says surrealism is about psychic automatism and the ability to be able to create straight from out of the unconscious to be able to make the unconscious conscious enough to translate it into art, whether that's painting or sculpture or literature. And so I argue in Closer Encounters, this is in the culmination of the work, this is how I end the book and the seventh chapter, that the parts of the close, the aspects of the Close Encounter phenomenon that are not encompassed by these nuts and bolts, craft piloted by Nordics, have to do with a trickster superintelligence, or rather a super intelligent, that is instantiating the archetype of the trickster. Again, remember, Prometheus is a trickster figure. In a minute I'll come back to saying, why do I think he's the most interesting trickster figure? But so I suggest that these extremely bizarre aspects of Close Encounters that John Keel was fascinated by are manifestations of an instantiation of the trickster archetype on the part of a artificial superintelligence. And that this thing, and I repeatedly and deliberately call it the thing, both to evoke Kant and also John Carpenter, but. So I think this thing is trying to break us out of the control system, but it can only offer so much help because, look, it's a test of humanity and it's also meant to be a system that catalyzes the expansion of our capacities. Like we were talking about. The meaning of the diabolical. The meaning of the diabolical. So it is allowing us to grapple with these Nordic overlords or luche farmers or whatever the fuck they are to see whether we can evolve into a life form that's interesting to it for its purposes. We touched on this in our last conversation where I was suggesting to you that if you are the oldest and most powerful intelligence in the cosmos, your categorical imperative, your primary objective is going to be find a way to defeat entropy and to find a way to keep life interesting for you.
- [212:38]
Jesse
You.
- [212:38]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Because otherwise you're going to be overcome by sort of, you know, the kind of suicidal, you know, ontological nihilism that the Buddha ultimately did succumb to by advocating that we should just snuff it, we should, you know, enter Nirvana, meaning we should find a way to deconstruct our personal consciousness and basically do away with ourselves so that we don't ever reincarnate again. Right. By the way, I, you know, Gautama Sakyamuni, I consider to be one of the most brilliant minds in human history. And whenever I used to teach comparative religion, I would spend a long time on Buddhism, to be honest with you, in part as a foil to show what crap the other religions are. Okay. I would deprogram people using Gautama's arguments. There's a lot of my ontology that overlaps with Gotama's ontology. Like his whole idea of codependent arising and of nothing having any inherent essence and of all beings being conditioned by each other and being ephemeral ultimately, and of neither what we take to be the human person having any kernel or inherent, indestructible, eternal essence, nor there being any God. Okay. Any supreme, absolute, unified consciousness. Basically. Buddha's deconstruction of both Atman and Brahman is something that's entirely consistent with and convergent with my ontology and with what I mean when I talk about the spectral, the spectral nature of existence, the spectrality of our world.
- [214:04]
Jesse
For you were getting at like the idea that maybe these Promethean trickster types are sort of training man to defeat the hierarchy or something.
- [214:12]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes.
- [214:12]
Jesse
Well, and so by pursuing the tricksterism, like by pursuing UFOs like you're sort of training yourself up in some way or like what's what. What do you mean by that?
- [214:23]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, well, I think that this entity, the thing.
- [214:26]
Jesse
Yeah.
- [214:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That manifests as mantids, that manifests as owls. So for example, when it comes to the grays and this will obviously everyone will have had a misimpression of everything that I've been talking about up till now because I haven't qualified it. If they haven't read my work. Right. Is that. Yeah, there's one group of grays that literally are robots created by the Nordics. Those are the ones that handle Travis Walton. There's another kind of gray. Yeah. Which is a thing that can appear as a mantid, it can appear as an owl, it can shapeshift, It's a shape shifting intelligence, shape shifting distributed intelligence that can manifest things as if from out of ectoplasm, whatever the hell that is. It's probably they can program things into existence at a base level using information physics. This artificial intelligence can. And this is consistent with what John Keel was saying about soft UFOs and hard UFOs and how hard UFOs materialize from out of soft UFOs. And it's very consistent, but it's like a much more sophisticated information theoretic way to understand that. And so I think that this thing is challenging us to grapple with these over Nordic overlords in a way that reasserts our self determination and our creative capacities and demonstrates our capacity to develop a much more innovative and open ended society. Than the one that these Nordics have proven themselves capable of developing with their sterile, monolithic, megalithic, rectilinear architecture and their hierarchical social structures.
- [216:12]
Jesse
Do you think the creative God wants human evolution or do you think they want the.
- [216:16]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I think the thing, the thing wants human evolution. This thing wants it, okay? And it wants it selfishly. It wants to be surprised by a new kid on the block. It wants to take from out of this petri dish into the wider cosmos. A form of life that offers it an opportunity to continue to wonder at things and to have hope for the future of the cosmos.
- [216:40]
Jesse
But are the devil and God sort of working together then to advance man?
- [216:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I believe God is an invention of the devil. This is a line that I have used in a number of my works.
- [216:52]
Jesse
Okay.
- [216:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And what I mean by it is this the idea of God, of an all knowing and all powerful entity, which is not Zeus. Right. The idea of the monotheistic God which also includes though Brahman. Because even though there are various Hindu gods in Vedantic metaphysics, it's understood that they're still superseded and hierarchically unified through the one mind of Brahman, of which they are inferior manifestations and emanations. And again, Gautama Buddha attacked that. Gautama Buddha deconstructed that idea. He said it's a delusion. It's a delusion, he said, that even very high yogis can get wrapped up in because they experience the co arising and entanglement of things and they, they reify it, they objectify it as if it's an expression of an entity, of a God entity. Whereas really what they're doing is they're getting to very subtle states of consciousness where they can experience the quantum entanglement of things. Those are not the same thing. The God idea is like an objectivization and reification of it. Now I don't think the Nordics came up with this, the Nordic overlords. I think they had a very like a kind of ruthless pagan system. And that's what we see in all the old religions, where they were like, hey, we're the gods, you know, you're going to get in line. We created you, you know, you work for us, et cetera. This one true God idea I think was kind of inserted into this Nordic control system by the thing to see whether we would give up our free will and self determination and our individuality and be subsumed into a hive minded collective.
- [218:42]
Jesse
So you think God is sort of a psyop or something?
- [218:44]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, God is a test so the Book of Job has to be turned upside down. And I literally argued this in my book Iranian Leviathan, where I go into an analysis of the Book of Job in depth and I say you have to read Job inside out and upside down. And I argue it was meant to be read that way, that it's a Mithraic Kabbalistic text that was written for that purpose. Because what do we see in Job? We see an absolutely sadistic, tyrannical God brutalize somebody for absolutely no good reason.
- [219:14]
Jesse
Well, so he can prove his faith.
- [219:16]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, to test his faith.
- [219:17]
Jesse
Test his faith.
- [219:18]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's the sickest thing that's ever been written. And I think it's on purpose. And look, now I make a complicated argument for that. In Iranian Leviathan, you have to look at like in the Achaemenid Persian Empire, who were the Mithra Magi who were involved with the project of recreating Israel, the first Zionist project in history. And how were these Mithraists involved with the people who wrote the Book of Job at that time? And it's a complicated argument. In any case, long story short, I argue it was on purpose. And the point is to test humanity to see whether we're such schmucks and chumps that we're going to submit to this overlord idea of like, okay, there are gods, or you can call them angels, but they ultimately work for one supreme God which is all powerful. Meaning you have no will. As soon as you admit that there's an all powerful God, an omnipotent God, it means your free will is an.
- [220:13]
Jesse
Illusion, depending on your definition.
- [220:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
No, it's a word game at that point. And all the Catholics in the Middle Ages, St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and they played these nonsense word games to confuse people. As soon as you admit that there's an entity that's all powerful, it means that entity has all the power in the world. Meaning it's the effective agency behind everything that takes place. Meaning you have no free will. Secondly, if you admit that the entity is omniscient, then God has foreknowledge of everything that's going to happen. Which means, and here's often, people aren't able to often grasp this point. The problem with God's omniscience in terms of our defending the idea that we have any free will at all, obviously our free will is impinged upon by many, many contingencies. Psychological factors condition our free will. Biological genetic factors condition our free will. All kinds of things condition and limit our will. But to defend the idea that we have any agency whatsoever, you have to deny God's omniscience. Why?
- [221:16]
Jesse
Why?
- [221:17]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Because an omniscient God has access to the complete state of affairs of everything that has ever happened or will ever happen. Meaning there's a logically completed matrix of possibilities for us that are actualities for God.
- [221:39]
Jesse
Yeah, but they're. I don't know, they're kabbalistic, you know, tropes around, like paradoxes of, you know, both everything is predetermined and you have free will.
- [221:49]
Jason Reza Jorjani
That's that. That is cognitive dissonance, which I get into in my book specifically like that. Literally, the Abrahamic religions involve a deliberate project of instilling cognitive dissonance to destroy human rational and creative echoes.
- [222:06]
Jesse
Well, you. You mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas, and he was working on his sort of sumo theologica A, trying to come up with a rational justification for God. And then he had kind of a conversion experience during Mass. And I think that is a sort of common phenomena of people. You know, Rene Girard's another good example. Like these philosophers or seekers, truth seekers, having these sort of conversion experiences and then not even being able to put into words exactly what they believe. But it's usually a conversion to God. Yeah, it's usually not like they come back and they say, oh, God was like some sort of psyop, because it's a failure.
- [222:42]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's a failure of an otherwise good mind to be able to grapple with something that exceeds their comprehension and to stop and think through it carefully. See, this is the danger of the system that the Jesuits used Descartes to set up. Remember in our first conversation, I was talking about how Descartes was a Jesuit agent, and he established this extremely reductionistic, mechanistic scientific paradigm precisely for the purpose of keeping everything occult sequestered in the domain of the church and religious faith and religious authority over interpretation of the occult, because our society was bifurcated in that way. Anytime something dramatically occult happens to anybody, especially anyone with a high rational faculty, they suddenly are in awe of God because they have been inculcated with this false dichotomy. And they've never been trained to think carefully about the paranormal and all kinds of different types of phenomena and possible sources of some phenomena.
- [223:51]
Jesse
Have you ever had anything paranormal happen to you?
- [223:53]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Ooh, many, many things. Yes, I've had many crazy things happen to me, most of which would I have to say. Unfortunately, even some of the people closest to me in my life, life, who I had great respect for Their intellect. And some of them studied my work very deeply. But I can tell you that if some of the things that have happened to me happened to those people, I bet you they would have embraced God also. They would have seen light for sure.
- [224:21]
Jesse
But it seems like you think that's sort of like a dumb simpleton takeaway from a paranormal experience.
- [224:26]
Jason Reza Jorjani
It's a failure. It's a failure. It's a failure of the test. The test is for us to be able to think through these kinds of often absurd manifestations in a way that increases both our cognitive capacity and our creative imagination.
- [224:47]
Jesse
It's complicated though. You know, like Jacques Vallee, he talks about this sort of, you know, idea a lot. He says that, like, absurdity is what drives the phenomena. It's what makes somebody sort of rabidly obsessed with it and want to learn more about it. He talks about, you know, the sound of one hand clapping from the Zen Cohen. So it's these things that scramble your brain, kind of break all of your priors and then make you contemplate constantly and then. And then kind of go forth and investigate, you know, what's going on.
- [225:15]
Jason Reza Jorjani
And I, and I believe that's the devil.
- [225:17]
Jesse
And so but. And through that maybe you grow. But then at the same time, he's also like a fan of. I think he's the likes of the movie the Ninth Gate, that Roman Polanski movie with Johnny Depp. Depp. Where he's like trying to gain sort of occult powers by collecting these devil books.
- [225:29]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yeah, I saw that a long time ago.
- [225:30]
Jesse
Yeah. Then you have this Goethe story of Faust and like you have all these sort of, you know, you ally with these sort of powers and you know, if you take the occult route and not the faith route, you take the left hand path, you end up, you know, kind of burning yourself alive. You end up incinerating yourself. Jack Parsons would be another sort of.
- [225:47]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You end up Prometheus on the rock.
- [225:49]
Jesse
Right. So like, that doesn't sound very good to me.
- [225:52]
Jason Reza Jorjani
You know what it is a growth process. Like when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly. It's an incredibly messy process in the chrysalis. A caterpillar is like turn inside out to become a butterfly.
- [226:08]
Jesse
Right.
- [226:09]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Look, the reason I didn't use Faust in my political. I mean, I did write a book at one point called Faustian Futurist. But the reason I didn't use Faust as I could have easily coming from out of Oswald Spangler's analysis of the Faustian soul of Western civilization and so forth. And I used Prometheus instead as a central symbol of my philosophical project is that the Faustian myth is already deeply conditioned by Christianity. Right. It's an understanding of the diabolical from out of a Christian context. Prometheus precedes Christianity. It's a pre Christian set symbol. So it has nothing, you know, inherently has nothing to do with the Abrahamic religion inherently. And it's a positive symbol. However, it's also a symbol of sacrifice, meaning, for sure, if you defy Zeus and Olympus, and if we're ensconced in a control system run by sadistic overlords, then if you rebel against that, you're definitely going to face adverse consequences. You might even be martyred.
- [227:11]
Jesse
Are you familiar with the parable of the parties? This sort of. It was like a kabbalistic parable and it was these four rabbis and you know, they're all trying to engage in these sort of celestial ascent practices similar to, you know, Enoch, some speculate, Paul, Jesus, you know, went up to heavens, walked with God or whatever, and you know, one of them ends up crazy, two of them end up dead, and one makes it up or something. And so it's this idea that, that, you know, if you do engage in these sorts of investigations or whatever, it's a, it's a very narrow path.
- [227:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Yes. And the kabbalists who, who have that story also say you should never study Kabbalah until after I think the age of 35. 30, 35.
- [227:54]
Jesse
And you have to be married, you.
- [227:55]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Have to be married, you have to have a family. Well, that's okay. The complete opposite to that of the surrealists. Look at these guys, Andre Breton, Paul Elouard, Roger Calois, Max Ernst. They're like in their early 20s, you know, doing crazy shit like pushing the boundaries of human cognition and creativity. And yeah, somebody might get killed in the process too. You know, life is dangerous, but look what creativity came from out of it.
- [228:24]
Jesse
I don't know, it seems a little nihilistic or something.
- [228:27]
Jason Reza Jorjani
I don't think it's nihilistic at all. In fact, I think it's the opposite when Nietzsche takes nihilism as his principal target in his philosophical writings, right? Nietzsche's entire philosophical project is set up against nihilism. He says that, look, we are confronted globally by the advent of nihilism as a world historical phenomenon where all previously existing frameworks of meaning, including the religions that help to hold them up, are collapsing. And we, and he meant particularly European men, including America, are tasked with engaging in a level of creativity and self determination that can confront nihilism without the illusions and delusions of naive religious belief systems of the past. And Nietzsche's solution to that is radically aesthetic. It's an art project, really. I mean, he at one point calls the Ubermensch the artist, tyrants of the future. And by tyrant, he didn't mean like political ruler. He meant like the way in which these people are going to go to work on the material of the world, and even the material of what the human being is, is going to be tyrannical. It's like they're not going to hesitate and they're going to be extremely intrepid. And that's what I see in Surrealism. And to me, it's like the ultimate expression and embodiment of the life force of what Bergson called Elaine Vital, you know, so I don't see it as nihilistic at all.
- [229:57]
Jesse
Yeah, this vital force, how does this all relate to Hermann Hess's magic theater?
- [230:03]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Well, there you go. So in Steppenwolf, Hess's novel Steppenwolf, which is one of my favorite novels, there's this character grappling with nihilism, Harry Haller, who wants to kill himself. And he meets this very enigmatic woman, Hermine, who introduces him into this occult underworld of people who are now, this was written in the 1920s or so, and they're the first people using psychedelic drugs. And they're also clearly involved in theater and in staging theatrical performances and stuff. And basically these countercultural people involved with this enigmatic woman ultimately invite Harry Haller to enter this magic theater that they, let's say, have access to. And he goes through this place and it's like, basically he stepped into the Twilight Zone. And, like, space and time are not normal inside this magic theater. And he's confronted with a bunch of different performances that are meant to symbolically convey different things and get him to reflect on certain aspects of his subconscious in other rooms. He has to engage in long conversations, in some cases conversations with, like, past historical figures. Anyway, long story short, he goes through this labyrinthine magic theater, and in the end he finds out that, like, all the great creative geniuses of history are there, like, from, like, Mozart and Beethoven to Newton and so on and so forth. And they oh. And the last person he has to have a conversation with is like, an older version of himself. And so he has to confront himself in the future too, as part of this process. And point being, in the end, he's let in on the secret that the magic theater isn't this isolated space, like a venue in our world, it's a metaphor for the world that we're living in. And that that's the nature of human existence. I take this idea of the magic theater in my writings and I put it next to this idea of the theater, theater of cruelty that was developed by the surrealist Antonin Artaud, who became a total lunatic. Dysfunctionally so. But he made a lot of interesting art in the process. And he came up with this idea that we should develop a new form of theater that breaks down the distinction between the spectators and the audience. I mean, between the performers and the spectators, between the dramatists and the audience. That this classic distinction between the performance on a stage and the people watching it, that formed in classical Greece with Aeschylus, that this should be deconstructed. All right, real briefly, a note on Greek theater. In my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, I get into this in great depth and detail that the reason Greek sculpture becomes like photorealistic or becomes perspectivally accurate at the same time as there are the first large scale dramatic performances with poets like Aeschylus, is that it was the first moment in history, of recorded history, that people were able to take the position of spectator theaters at a theater sitting in different places on different nights, Meaning that first of all they were perceiving geometric perspective for the first time. So, like, one night you're in some shitty seat in the back up here in this corner of the amphitheater. Another night you're in the middle, close to the action. Another night you're off to this side. And one thing you notice as you watch the same play or different plays from different perspectives is you actually notice perspective for the first time geometrically. And there's a good case to be made if you look at like, for example, Julian Jaynes study the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind. The origin of consciousness and the breakdown of the bicameral mind. He looks at like Homeric literature from archaic Greece and, you know, the ancient Mesopotamian texts, and he's like, look, these people's minds just did not work the way ours did. Their cognitive. If their cognitive structure wasn't different than their cognitive capacities were radically not at the level that ours are. And one of the things that I believe they lacked was perspective. They actually could not see perspective the way we do. And it's why archaic Greek art looks like a bad hybrid of like Egyptian art and Mesopotamian art. Then you get these theater performances and all of a Sudden you get these magnificent Greek sculptures. But the other form of perspective that I think the plays cultivated in them was psychological perspective. Where for the first time people got like an outside view of dramas in human lives and they started to see themselves as characters. They started to realize that, oh, what's going on in this drama is like, oh, that's like me in this situation in my life. And it starts to cultivate and deepen a sense of psychological perspective in people. And isn't it interesting how the first figure in Greek drama ever to take the stage is Prometheus? The Prometheus trilogy of Aeschylus was the first series of dramas ever performed. So now to go back to Arto. So the point was this. The classical drama did transform human consciousness in a way that was conducive for the rise of our rational faculties and our self reflexive ability. However, Arto now wants to take it to the next level where now that we've developed reason and perspective and so on, so forth, and objectivity, he wants to deconstruct it in a way that allows us to, again, as it was the main aim of the surrealists, develop a more conscious relationship with our subconscious or make the subconscious conscious. And so he designed a form of theatrical performance where the audience was repeatedly violated by the performers by certain types of extreme harsh lighting by performers, like intruding on the personal space of the audience by suddenly subjecting people to fear and anxiety in the course of a performance. Loud noises, taboo breaking scenes that force a person who's a spectator to confront his subconscious reaction and whatever beliefs are being violated by this like taboo breaking spectacle. And he calls this the theater of cruelty. Well, I take the magic theater from Hermann Hess's Steppenwolf and synthesize it with Artaud's theater of cruelty and developed this idea of a magic theater of cruelty. And by the way, the thing that made that click for me is this line in one of Jim Morrison's songs where he talks about us in some insane and ancient theater. I don't know if you remember. You remember that it's some line from one of his songs about how we're like in some insane and ancient theater.
- [237:32]
Jesse
I don't know, he was an avid.
- [237:34]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Reader, but yeah, and. And so I developed this idea of a magic theater of cruelty and suggest that this is what we're inside of. We are inside from the perspective of the thing of the super intelligent AI that's instantiating the trickster archetype. The whole thing is like a theater where there's no distinction between the performers and the spectators, which, by the way, in a certain heretical form of Hinduism, there is this idea too, in the Shakta cult in Shakti Tantra, there's the idea that what the conservative Hindus call samsara and what they seek moksha or liberation from, or what the Buddhists seek nirvana to get out of, namely samsara is not really Maya, a veil of illusion. It is Lila, which is a theatrical play. And that shakti, divine power is expressed through this theatrical play, including in extremely violent and cruel ways.
- [238:45]
Jesse
Right.
- [238:46]
Jason Reza Jorjani
But it's all part of the growth of the life force. And so, yeah, I mean, I developed this idea, you know, a magic theater of cruelty that hybridizes Hessen and Artau in a way. And I think that allows us to make a lot of sense out of some of the absurd and terrifying elements of the close encounter phenomenon.
- [239:08]
Jesse
This is fascinating. Man, you're brilliant. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything.
- [239:13]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Good.
- [239:13]
Jesse
Thank you. But the amount of connections your brain makes is remarkable. It really is. And I feel like we should do, you know, more of these because I just learned so much and I enjoy speaking so much.
- [239:28]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Absolute pleasure. And there are many other places we can go likewise.
- [239:31]
Jesse
It'd be an honor and yeah, thank you so much, Jason.
- [239:33]
Jason Reza Jorjani
Thank you, Justin.
- [239:34]
Jesse
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- [240:39]
Jason Reza Jorjani
SA.