Presidential Advisor: “I Directly Handled UFO Material” (Ft. Harald Malmgren)

Summary

Podcast Summary: American Alchemy – "Presidential Advisor: 'I Directly Handled UFO Material' (Ft. Harald Malmgren)"

Introduction

In this riveting episode of American Alchemy, host Jesse Michels delves deep into the enigmatic world of UFOs, government secrecy, and high-stakes political maneuvering. Featuring an exclusive interview with Harald Malmgren, a presidential advisor who claims to have directly handled UFO material, the episode weaves together historical events, insider knowledge, and speculative theories that challenge conventional understandings of power and extraterrestrial phenomena.

The Cuban Missile Crisis and Harald Malmgren's Pivotal Role

The episode opens with a dramatic recounting of the Cuban Missile Crisis in October 1962, a period marked by intense Cold War tensions. Malmgren narrates his involvement as a young, 27-year-old advisor summoned by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara into the Situation Room amid the looming threat of nuclear conflict.

• [01:34] Harald Malmgren: "Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, give us time to work something out."

His strategic questioning effectively neutralized the aggressive stance of Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command, preventing a potential nuclear catastrophe.

Harald Malmgren's UFO Involvement

Transitioning from his critical role during the Cuban Missile Crisis, Malmgren reveals his unexpected connection to UFOs. He admits to handling UFO debris from a Marshall Islands nuclear test, marking him as one of the few high-caliber officials to acknowledge such encounters publicly.

• [03:28] Pippa Malmgren: "You've been dropping bombs on the Internet, saying some amazing things."
• [03:08] Jesse Michels: "Harald admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Islands nuclear test."

Historical Connections and Secret Groups

The conversation delves into historical instances of UFO encounters and the alleged involvement of secretive groups such as Majestic 12. Malmgren corroborates the existence of a 1933 UFO crash in Magenta, Italy, recently highlighted by whistleblower David Grusch. This event is linked to prominent figures like Richard Bissell, chief architect of Area 51, who confirmed Malmgren's accounts.

• [04:47] Pippa Malmgren: "You have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown. What source did you get it from?"
• [04:55] Harald Malmgren: "Foreign intelligence."

The Bluegill Triple Prime Test and UFO Encounters

One of the most intriguing segments covers the Bluegill Triple Prime test during Operation Dominic in October 1962. Malmgren describes witnessing a UFO "tag along" with a nuclear missile test, an event that remains shrouded in secrecy due to government censorship and classified responses.

• [05:05] Pippa Malmgren: "So you're looking at like material, anomalous material."
• [05:13] Jesse Michels: "Harald tells me that Bissell confirmed to him the existence of the Magenta UFO crash of 1933 in Italy."

Footage from the test, later sanitized by the Defense Special Weapons Agency, shows unidentified objects interacting with missile tests, raising questions about the nature and intentions of these aerial phenomena.

Richard Bissell and Area 51

Harald Malmgren discusses his interactions with Richard Bissell, a key figure in UFO research and Area 51 operations. Bissell's briefings expanded Malmgren's understanding of "otherworldly technologies" and the intertwined nature of CIA operations and extraterrestrial occurrences.

• [07:03] Danny Sheehan: "You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed."
• [07:10] Jesse Michels: "If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks with Harald, going deep on his vast knowledge of UFOs, deep politics, and global power structures."

The Knights of Malta and Intelligence Networks

A significant portion of the discussion explores the Knights of Malta and their alleged involvement in UFO research and international intelligence operations. Malmgren draws connections between prominent intelligence figures, including James Jesus Angleton, and the secretive activities surrounding UFO technology retrievals.

• [104:18] Pippa Malmgren: "They seem to have kind of a lot of top level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta."
• [104:25] Harold Malmgren: "Yeah, I'm speculating now, but no doubt in my mind about myself."

Advanced Technologies and Historical Events

The conversation broadens to encompass the influence of recovered UFO technology on modern advancements. Discussions reference the Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars) and how early UFO encounters may have inspired directed energy weapon systems aimed at missile defense.

• [82:50] Pippa Malmgren: "And I think Townsend Brown's stuff was classified by the Navy."
• [83:04] Harold Malmgren: "Foreign intelligence."

Harald Malmgren's Personal Insights and Final Reflections

As the interview progresses, Malmgren shares personal anecdotes that illustrate his extensive network and influence within global intelligence circles. From clandestine meetings with Vladimir Putin to his involvement in shaping intelligence briefings, Malmgren portrays himself as a pivotal yet understated figure in managing extraterrestrial threats and fostering international peace.

• [217:54] Harold Malmgren: "He introduced me to Primakov. He said, this man is rising. He will soon be very important, Russia. You should know him."
• [222:35] Pippa Malmgren: "You have a purpose."

Conclusion

The episode concludes on a contemplative note as Malmgren reflects on his life's purpose and the intricate web of intelligence operations he has been a part of. His final remarks hint at ongoing investigations into time travel, anti-gravity technologies, and the broader implications of humanity's interactions with unidentified aerial phenomena.

• [227:31] Harold Malmgren: "You have a purpose. And you may not know it until the end..."
• [223:18] Pippa Malmgren: "You're like Zelig or something."

Key Takeaways

• Harald Malmgren played a crucial role during the Cuban Missile Crisis, using strategic dialogue to prevent nuclear war.
• Malmgren admits to handling UFO debris, linking high-level government operations to extraterrestrial phenomena.
• Majestic 12 and historical UFO crashes, such as the 1933 Magenta incident, are central to understanding government secrecy around UFOs.
• Richard Bissell's involvement with Area 51 and advanced UFO technologies underscores the clandestine nature of extraterrestrial research.
• The Knights of Malta emerge as a significant yet speculative player in the UFO narrative, intertwining with intelligence and political elites.
• Advanced technologies, potentially derived from UFO encounters, have influenced modern defense initiatives like the Strategic Defense Initiative.
• Malmgren's extensive network and personal experiences highlight the complex interplay between intelligence agencies, political figures, and secret societies in managing UFO-related information.

Notable Quotes

• Harald Malmgren [01:34]: "Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, give us time to work something out."
• Pippa Malmgren [04:47]: "You have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown. What source did you get it from?"
• Harald Malmgren [34:48]: "He was in charge of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron in Roswell, New Mexico, that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
• Harald Malmgren [44:52]: "He said, you have to let me know what took place. Now I'm sure in different words that's what came out of the White House to the people running the test who were under the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission under Lawrence G."

Final Thoughts

This episode of American Alchemy offers a captivating exploration of the intersections between government secrecy, extraterrestrial phenomena, and historical events. Through Harald Malmgren's unique insights, listeners are invited to question the boundaries of known history and consider the profound implications of hidden truths that may shape our understanding of the world and beyond.

Transcript

[Harold Malmgren]

It's not, not for any of us to understand the world and how the world works. It just.

[Jesse]

It's October of 1962, the heart of the Cold War. Images from an American U2 revealed that the Soviet Union had secretly begun building missile bases In Cuba, just 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Strategic Air Command was placed in Defcon 2, the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States. Khrushchev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood.

[Harold Malmgren]

We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the Security Council be convoked without delay.

[Jesse]

Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force, wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets. Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara called one of his top aides, a 27 year old whiz kid named Harold Maugren, into the Situation Room.

[Harold Malmgren]

Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, give us time to work something out.

[Jesse]

Miraculously, the Hail Mary worked. Harold, the youngest man in a situation room, ran circles around one of the most aggressive four star generals in American history.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, I said it's madness. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And then that's at that point, right? LeMay storms out.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. He literally got up, slammed his papers down. I'm not going. I refuse to grind with this.

[Jesse]

Malm Grim went on to become a top presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford. And the fact that he neutralized LeMay and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You've been dropping bombs on the Internet, saying some amazing things.

[Harold Malmgren]

JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became President.

[Jesse]

Harold had been tweeting things that if taken it all seriously alongside his credentials and background, would wholesale overturn your worldview.

[Harold Malmgren]

No, he said Hamlet, these are things that have come down.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So you're looking at like material, anomalous material.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Debris.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

This interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Islands nuclear test. This is world history. It's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever admitted to handling UFO material directly.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What did it feel like?

[Harold Malmgren]

It felt weird because it didn't Feel anything we know.

[Jesse]

He discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by Deputy Director of plans for the CIA and chief architect of Area 51, Richard Bissell. Malmgrim tells me that Bissell confirmed to him the existence of the magenta UFO crash of 1933 in Italy, recently reported reported on by UFO whistleblower David Grush. He did?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Richard bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta crash?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's amazing.

[Jesse]

If that's not enough, Malmgrim also implies that he was being tracked by the Majestic 12 from a young age.

[Harold Malmgren]

Your name went in all the important books of talent. Not only CIA, but you know, all the majestic oldest guardians. They all took care of themselves to protect the world.

[Jesse]

The Majestic 12 is an elite group of military science and government advisors governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the 80s and 90s. But this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown. What source did you get it from?

[Harold Malmgren]

Foreign intelligence.

[Jesse]

We get into the Chinese science fiction fiction novel the Three Body Problem, which Harold believes may be the best model we have for the UFO story.

[Pippa Malmgren]

It's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear. As far as tech development, that's at.

[Harold Malmgren]

The heart of it. Yeah.

[Jesse]

Harold's daughter Pippa would know that. She was special assistant to President Bush and on his National Economic Council. It's now public knowledge through Hal Puthoff that George W. Bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his National Security Advisor, Stephen Hadley. As Pippa relayed to me, a lot of these high level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called the Three Body Problem, which became mandatory reading among many high level national security advisors in the United States.

[Danny Sheehan]

Then to fast forward, spending time with my own father.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

And discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days.

[Jesse]

Finally, we discuss secret science going on at sensitive Department of Energy sites across the country. Allen Dulles, the director of the CIA, the Italian mob, secret societies, the JFK assassination, and how all of these might relate to UFOs.

[Harold Malmgren]

The relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father, Angleton and the Knights of Baltic. Wow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

[Harold Malmgren]

Do I think so? Yes. I think it was probably the number one issue.

[Jesse]

In many ways, Malmgren was sort of a Forrest Gump of global elite politics.

[Harold Malmgren]

Bima Kov looked for me, found me in a crowd, brought me over, and he introduced me to Putin. Now, I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting.

[Jesse]

It became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratched the surface on.

[Danny Sheehan]

You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed.

[Jesse]

If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks with Harold, going deep on his vast knowledge of UFOs, deep politics, and global power structures. Unfortunately, a day after our interview, we had to rush him to the hospital. That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating in his tragic passing. But when I was back in Austin, Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone to follow up his vitals. On the cusp of failure, just three days before his death, he revealed even more to me. Things that will make you further question your reality.

[Harold Malmgren]

If you ask me, Did I have a purpose? Yes.

[Jesse]

In this final, courageous interview, Harald Malmgren transcends his earthly oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to humanity, one that may end up being just as consequential as saving the Earth from nuclear catastrophe. Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist, may he rest in peace. Presidential advisor and international peacekeeper, the Honorable Harold Malmgren.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Different parts of the brain have different activities. You know that, don't you?

[Danny Sheehan]

Maybe you should interview me.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Harold, it's Jesse.

[Harold Malmgren]

Oh, hi, Jesse. How are you?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Good man. I'm. How are you? Is the more important question. You scared me last week.

[Harold Malmgren]

I'm having to explain, step by step, who I am, how I happen to be here. And each person says, oh, I didn't know that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, I'm flanked by greatness and just honored to be here. I'm here with Dr. Harold Malmgram, who was a presidential advisor to four different presidents. JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You helped stop a couple of global crises, if we're going to get into that. But I think for the purposes of this conversation, you've been dropping bombs on the Internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality. Non human intelligence, UFOs, or as they're commonly referred to now, UAPs and informal briefs that you've gotten on the subject. And so I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all of this. And we also have Dr. Pippa Malmgram, who is equally amazing, and she was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his national Economic Council. She's written a few great books. I recommend you. You all check them out. And she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well. So I'm honored to be here with both of you guys.

[Danny Sheehan]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Absolutely.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I'm honored because I've watched your work with several people and you've done an amazing job. The most one stuck in my mind is your interview with Matthew Pines.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, that means so much. Matthew Pines makes it easy. He's one of the smartest people I've met and has a really interdisciplinary understanding. He can go from physics. I'm not a practicing physicist. It's not my job. But I'm trying to, like, familiarize myself with Garrett Lisi's stuff with Sabina stuff, Wolfram and Jonathan Garard. But he can also understand the minutiae of Washington and how it works.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, that's why I like him. Yeah, he's unusual.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He is very unusual. So you ended up known as one of Robert McNamara's whiz kids, quote unquote, and just this kind of child prodigy. But you grew up on the other side of the tracks, and so I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I was born in the middle of the Great Depression, and my mother and father were immigrants from Sweden. We lived right by Narragansett Bay, just off the Atlantic. When I was just turning seven, my mother said, well, this is the day you have to start working. So when you come home from school, I'm going to go down to the water and bring home dinner. We've gotten rationing at that time, meat rationing. I learned to use a boat, learn to fish, learn to get crab traps. Even had lobster traps, dig up shellfish. So every day brought home something. It became second nature. Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice, big piece of ice, because we didn't have refrigerators. It was bloody heavy. I was still little. Anyway, When I was 13, going on 14, just before my 14th birthday, my father had found work as a restoration specialist. And we restored old mansions in Newport, around Boston, particularly near Cambridge. We were working on this big house. He said, can you help me? It's the summer. And so I was working with steel wool and some kind of solution to clear walnut panels. And this big gentleman came in the room and said, hello, young man. What are you doing? Yeah, I'm helping my dad. He says, sit down and talk to me. And that was a little bit unusual. Why does he want to talk to Me. Anyway, we talked what he was doing at school, what he was learning. About two hours later, he called my father and said, I want to take this boy out of your school. I want him to come in September and matriculate at mit and we'll give him a full scholarship, all four years. I'm not sure he needs the full four years. We'll give him more than years he needs. We'll give him internship. You don't have to worry about summers. And if all goes well, we'll take him all the way to graduate school. I said, well, wait a minute. I'm not ready to leave home. And he said, listen to me. I'm really offering a whole new life. He said, yeah, but I like my life. But Carl Compton, he said he was president of mit, and I didn't know then the whole history of the large role he played in the Second World War. I think he was in charge of the War Production Board at some point.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So this was Carl Compton, who was the sitting president of mit, which allowed him. He had the power to offer you a full ride.

[Harold Malmgren]

He had the power to do that, yeah. So we ended up friendly. But he said, you've talked about things at the very frontier of things.

[Pippa Malmgren]

At 13 or 14.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. He said, you stunned me because you brought up what is a photon? Why don't we understand it? Why didn't we have a picture of it? We have a picture of everything else. No, Proton, I said, I thought about it and thought about it. I didn't know Einstein's dilemma. So I said, it's something that operates in interaction with something else, probably another photon, and probably it's impulses. And probably there doesn't matter how far apart, it's just that interaction. But you can't get a picture of it because those pulses are so too fast. And scientists are two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably as many. And that's the problem, that you're trying to get at something specific when it's not specific. And he said, no, it's not that. So you don't understand. You have an inventive mind. You see beyond but the biggest minds. I said, yes, but I'm not ready to go home and leave home.

[Jesse]

Malmgrim displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to, not only because he was too young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally yet. Entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but Malmgram was saying this at the age of 14 in 1950. And while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in 1935, the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the 60s and 70s with Bell's inequality theorem and with the measurements of physicist John Clouser. So how did young Malmgram understand this concept at 14 as a poor painter's son?

[Danny Sheehan]

There's a bit of a backstory, and part of my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career. But the key was, before you met Carl Compton, you'd written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on nuclear physics. So you'd, at that age, already read an immense amount.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Can we show some of that correspondence?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do we have the. This is amazing. This here, the. The control of atomic energy. So this is what they sent back.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah. Not only that to you. Genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Pippa Malmgren]

See, that's really interesting. They were. They were really interested in the genetic stuff. And you have Detlev Bronk is written about here. You know, Detlev Bronk was the president of the Rockefeller foundation, but he was also president of Johns Hopkins, who's rumored to be on this quote, unquote, Majestic12 and do autopsies on non human intelligence bodies. And so. And then you had all these studies going on at the time, like the Cambridge labs, where you had the Polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation. And Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area 51, where they were doing a lot of, you know, human genetic experimentation vis a vis radiation as well.

[Danny Sheehan]

And again, some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And when I came across them in dad's old files, I'm like, what the heck are these? Wow. And they're from the Atomic Energy Commission. And their photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Pippa Malmgren]

These are Geiger counters. Is that right?

[Danny Sheehan]

You were telling me last night, this is Hiroshima. Credit U.S. air Force.

[Pippa Malmgren]

This is amazing.

[Danny Sheehan]

So that's why he knew a lot at that age. And Carl Compton starts to register the president of mit, that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paint bucket for his dad and he knows a lot about photons. And so I think that's where this began. He was identified at a very early age.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

As Someone with a very particular proclivity.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

And then fast forward, because, you know, I looked at my dad's career, I look back, and I'm like, how the heck did you end up at age 27, being the joint liaison between the Joint Chiefs and the President of the United States National Security council under Bob McNamara and JFK, just as the Cuban Missile Crisis is beginning? And, you know, dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made. And he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's so amazing.

[Danny Sheehan]

Which is a story I think you should tell.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, I can't wait to hear. But clearly you had been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is a letter that you're receiving from Oak Ridge National Labs, and it's atomic bomb engineering. So it's clear that they are like, okay, here's this whiz kid. Let's give him a limited information set, see what he can do with it, and maybe have some sort of initiation path. How you almost, you know, serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house holding a paint bucket? I don't quite know. I can't explain that.

[Jesse]

Who is this Carl Compton? Well, he served as the president of MIT from 1930 to 1948. During that time, he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Vannevar Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion of American military supremacy. At mit, Compton was heavily involved in the famous RAD lab and its development of American radar. His top technical aide was John Trump. If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting president, Donald Trump. And John Trump was charged with investigating Tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States. One of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas Townsend Browne's Philadelphia Experiment.

[Danny Sheehan]

But I was particularly looking for something.

[Harold Malmgren]

Which would be evidence of a secret weapon, which was a matter of concern.

[Danny Sheehan]

To the United States.

[Jesse]

But I digress. For the purposes of this conversation with Harold, Karl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First you have Robert Sarbacher, former head of Washington National Labs, also one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Sarbacher is famously on record saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Sarbacher also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman that none other than MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at Wright Airfield in 1950. But there are more UFO touch points for Compton. Another researcher in California named William Steinman had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive director of the Guided Missile committee for the DOD's R D board from 1949 to 1954. Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying saucers at the highest level. Dr. Vannevar Bush, Dr. Lloyd Berkner, Dr. Robert F. Reinhart, Dr. Eric A. Walker, Dr. John von Neumann, and one Dr. Carl T. Compton. Finally, when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a reply back in April of 2014, quote, unquote. Records which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed August 30, 2006. Why would the FBI destroy a file on an innocent university professor? And why would they have a file on him in the first place? Those are good questions. And how did little Harold Malmgrim somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Karl Compton's house? A couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program? That might be an even better question.

[Danny Sheehan]

Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Schelling, who was father of game theory.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

The application to conflict resolution across many different things, but nuclear. And working with many Nobel Prize winners, including Sir John Hicks at Oxford. And so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners and he asked them, who's your brightest kid? And Dad's name just kept showing up on the list.

[Pippa Malmgren]

It's fascinating. So then, okay, what happens? So you're recognized by Karl Compton. You have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy Commission. How do you end up from that situation to the Situation Room? During the Cuban Missile Crisis, as the youngest person in the room, I'm still.

[Harold Malmgren]

Trying to reach and scruff how that happened. Damn. At Yale, I was still a huge athlete and a really top student. I was ranked first, along with another person who later became Chief justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had moved from physics to economics because I thought, my parents need help. When I get older, I need to do something that makes money. Economics sounds like money. So I got a grant from Yale to go somewhere, and I wanted to go to Oxford. It was a dream. And I went there, really fell in love with it. I didn't really study anything specific. I went to everything. And then I met a lady there who was American. And those things happened. Got pretty Attached. Then I came back from. After my one year grant to Harvard and after I was partnering through the first term, McGeorge Bundy, who was then dean, had me in. And he said, we hear you're taking your leave again to go back to Oxford, but we want to offer you something special. We'll give you three years, all expenses, including summer. And all you got to do is write a book. You don't have to attend any classes. If you write the book, we'll almost certainly publish it. And that will be your PhD.

[Danny Sheehan]

And this is at Harvard.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So that's a great deal.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. He said, a great deal. And I said, yeah, but my brain was somewhat flattered by this girl. But also Oxford offered me. They said, just come here, we'll take care of you. You can do your PhD here. And so I did that, married that girl, took my mother. And, you know, there's always an element of frailty in unexpected ways in taking my mails. But at Oxford, Sir John Hercks decided. Well, he and his wife invited me to dinner and she explained she was a public finance expert. So she decided to explain to me her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come along once every 25, 30, 40 years. She said that Yale, you went deep into mathematical economics. So I told my husband that you gotta convince this young man to just dump all that mathematics in a storage shed and start working more fundamentally at behavioral economics. And I remember the first paper I gave him was really a moment of insight. I gave him this paper, nine pages, roughly full of math. He said, this looks very interesting. Come back next week. After I read it, came back next week. He said, don't sit here in the student reception room. Come into my inner chambers. Sit down here by the fire. I thought, is this bad or good? And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good. He said, but, you know, it took me an entire week to find it out. How many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime are going to spend three or four days of your time, of their time, trying to understand you? He said, I think this is not the way to make progress. So he said, it's near the end of term. I want you to go get a hold of a big amount of Gibbon's Decline and Fall, which is in several volumes. Read everything you can before we. The vacation period.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Decline and Fall of Realm.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

So I came back. He said, what have you learned? I said, well, I only got something, chapter or whatever. And he said that's not bad. The reason I wanted you to read that at a dead run is because you have to know how it was written. Gibbons didn't do it brick by brick. He wrote it at a dead run from his mind and said, you gotta learn to do that. You have plenty to say. You know how to say it. So write it that way. Don't stop to see if you can fit it to some model. And so we had a marvelous experience. And then soon afterwards he said there are people you should meet. Some of the best people at Cambridge came to see me. Famous names. And then he said, Hayek, Friedrich von Hayek. I persuaded him to come to Oxford and meet you. So he came. I spent time with him. For me it wasn't being. I knew who he was. It was very impressive. And then on another occasion there had been a big debate in the 1920s going to the 30s between Ludwig von Jesus on behalf of the Austrian capitalism economists and communist central planet. The opposite was Oscar Lange. Oscar Lange came to Oxford to have dinner with me. We had a fight certain centralization, it automatically degrades itself because you restrict everybody from innovation, adaptation. Once you do that, there's no change.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So you would be more on the Austrian school side?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Okay. I am too. Yeah, well, although I'm far inferior economics.

[Harold Malmgren]

I'm still the same. I'm totally convinced that China will collapse because of over centralization. Anyway, by the way, in the 1980s I was in China for some kind of a SRI meeting.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Stanford Research Institute.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. And they invited me along and the senior Chinese, very interesting. This is years later said can we have dinner with you alone? Well, okay, why not? Three of the most senior economic officials. We had a long term. We know about your work on centralization. Really? How do you know about. We had your thesis translated and we talked to some other people. We had an argument. I said over centralization will bring your destruction. It's an impossible. It's too big to manage anyway. So going back to Oxford, I finished up there and there was a bidding war like an NBA National Football League beating graduates from MIT and Stanford and Harvard and some others. Princeton offered me a post and Cornell said we'll trump the others. We'll offer you a new chair, just endowed now. So you will. You can bypass the normal process of several years from your assistant professor and associate professor. Eventually you can start at the top. So I said okay, I accept. And I came to Cornell with Pippa's mother. Pippa was born in May of that year and we were living in the House of Nabokov, the Russian author. Wow. He was on a name that I.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Leased from him in Ithaca, New York.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, it was an adventure. And he was something impressive. I mean, all these fortunate developments happened in my life anyway, by the way.

[Danny Sheehan]

These also became clues for me later because I realized Nabokov was said to be a CIA asset, really? And was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda. And, you know, there are lots of stories about the intelligence agencies using Dr. Zhivago as a medium for fomenting opposition within the Soviet Union. And so I was kind of like, how the heck do we end up in Nabokov's house?

[Harold Malmgren]

Oh, wow.

[Danny Sheehan]

And maybe the answer was that, you know, there was already at that time an intelligence world that, you know, in later years, because of Dad's work in nuclear negotiations, that, again, maybe he'd been kind of identified early on. But I would love for you, dad, to just dive into. You are in the Situation Room. You are down to the last three hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear go button. And can you just describe what was it like in that moment and how did you avert the nuclear crisis?

[Harold Malmgren]

A strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment under shipment to Cuba is being initiated. I was appointed liaison between McNamara and McGeorge, Bundy and JFK. I mean, pretty critical job.

[Pippa Malmgren]

McNamara's Secretary of Defense at the time.

[Harold Malmgren]

And so, all right, I'm there, I'm wondering what I'm going to work on. And suddenly the Cuban Missile Crisis unfolds, and I get a call. Bob wants you to work directly with a small group in the war room. I said, what's the war room? It's where the generals meet. Just like, go, go. Because they have the weapons, meaning the White House doesn't have them.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So this is Bob McNamara. He wants you to meet.

[Harold Malmgren]

He wanted me to be there in that room as his guy. They would know I'm his guy. And I said, yeah, they're not going to be eager to hear from this young sport. Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, get everybody more calm. And if you just keep asking questions and make them think, you'd be surprised how far that goes. And it buys us time, takes the pressure off from them, because there are some people in that group I didn't realize was Kurz Lemay. They were worried about who wants to go ahead and punish Russia for even Trying. So I get started in that. And after a few days, got used to the group, they got used to me. They didn't ask me to get to coffee. They treated me like, okay, I belong there. And I didn't say anything to me. I didn't talk down to them. I asked them, how was your wife today? So and so. And we got to the last hours, roughly four hours, when JFK told Fusco we put a quarantine around Cuba. If one of your ships breaks through the quarantine, that will be an act of war and we will take action. We specify. And among the generals there were arguments. What should we do? Do we take out the missiles that are in Cuban realm? We don't know whether some are armed or not. Do we know that they have the ability to do more than we see? Might they start World War 3 in order to take a step ahead? This was a time of mutually assured destruction. It was like really terrifying in some sense. And so we ended up final hours waiting to see if they were going to stop or not. And there was communication going on none of us were privy to between Khrushchev and jfk. And there was one additional element the history books have omitted. The Russian ambassador, Dobredin, he arrived that year in Washington. He was unique. He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of the Central Committee in Moscow. They sent him to Washington as the highest ranking politician in Moscow. And in that position he was able to himself talk with the top people in the Central Committee. Anyway, in those final hours, agitation level was high. We all sat down after somebody had a coffee break. And one of the senior generals sent a signal. We didn't have cell phones. An aide came in, said, I want you to call Mary, my wife, tell her to load the car, get everything ready to go and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place. And then he said, let's resume now, gentlemen.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah, it's like literally, Mary, take the kids and get out of here. Right. Like we're about to be at the end.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Oh, go.

[Danny Sheehan]

And this is the bit, dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis LeMay who wants to drop an OOP.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So maybe Dr. Strangelove wasn't. So it was based on him.

[Harold Malmgren]

Let me finish the story. So in the group, I said, gentlemen, all the thinking of the last, ever since the bomb was dropped in Japan, all the thinking is about mutually assured destruction. If we go, we both get obliterated. Does this make any sense to any of us in this room? There must be some degree of action less than that. And they all said, yeah, but we haven't explored that. I said, yeah, we don't have any calibration, any idea of small steps or.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What is daddication. The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.

[Jesse]

That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by.

[Pippa Malmgren]

The U.S. department of Health and Human.

[Jesse]

Services and the Ad Council.

[Harold Malmgren]

Ways to convince that we're serious. I mean, if we attack Russia, are we really ready for that? No. Now, if we attack Cuba and Russia thinks it's the first step, that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor. Well, that would be bad. We can't know what they're thinking, but we have to kind of think about that, or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at us, but a little bit makes us pissed off. And then we decided to unload everything first. LeMay is in this group saying, my strategic bombers are ready. He knew we had all these missiles.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But his nickname is Bombs Away.

[Harold Malmgren]

Bombs Away. I had no idea what a miserable, mean, arrogant guy this was. I mean, there was nothing written a lot about him other than he was super aggressive.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Is he Chief of Staff of the Air Force at this time?

[Harold Malmgren]

Strategic Air Command.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Okay.

[Danny Sheehan]

And it's important that you mention how he says, my guys, we keep setting them up to the point of no return.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say. He sat in the room to all these other generals and admirals, you can't imagine the morale problem I have. Every day. I send my boys out there. They reach the point of no return, where if they keep going, they'll run out of fuel. And he said, I have to order them back. He said, the morale is really. They're ready.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He's playing with millions of people's lives to make sure that the morale of his, you know, units are okay.

[Harold Malmgren]

Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't.

[Danny Sheehan]

Get our hair mussed, but I do.

[Harold Malmgren]

Say no more than 10 to 20.

[Danny Sheehan]

Million killed, tops, depending on the brakes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's.

[Harold Malmgren]

You said that. And everyone in the room looked down at their lap. They didn't want to eyeball him, you know, like. Yeah, I didn't hear that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, it's like if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I mean, he's also for the context, for the audience. He was in charge of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron in Roswell, New Mexico, that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. And he was in charge of all the fire bombing in Germany. Yeah. I mean, yeah. His idea of the enemy is obliterate them anyway. I didn't know what I was up against, but, you know, it might have scared me, but it didn't. So I said, well, let's all the rest of us, let's contemplate the options. We slowly talk. And then it turned out that we got word the Russians stopped the boats at the point of quarantine. And I said, can we agree that we should back off? Who's supposed to back off? And Charles LeMay said, no way. We've got to teach them a lesson that they messing with us. They have to have something to remember. We need to. We need some surgical strikes on Russia. It doesn't have to be population oriented, but we need to make it painful. But that leads us back into when they think that this is just the beginning of Armageddon. We simply haven't had a discussion. We have no communication channel to deal with that. It doesn't make sense, it seems to me, backing off for now and letting the discussions continue. How do we avoid this being the preference? All the generals agreed. And the one that had called his wife pushed a button. His aide came in, said, call Mary back, tell her I know this.

[Danny Sheehan]

But. But you also made a suggestion that if you hit Moscow, there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with. And further, if you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't hit Moscow, maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in the room just love that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime target first? And then they say, Moscow. And then you say, oh, if it's Moscow, then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody to negotiate with that's been through that.

[Harold Malmgren]

Because I said, it's madness. If you're going to start something, you need to stop in that system. There's only one point of decision. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And then that's at that point. Right. LeMay storms out and gets all angry. Is that right or something?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. No, he Literally got up, slammed his papers down, said, I'm not going. I refuse to grind with this. That man is a really maniac. But I have to tell you, I did not buckle.

[Jesse]

No, I know you didn't.

[Harold Malmgren]

Now, he had, by the way, just before that, raised the warning level to DEFCON 2. And it was not approved by the President.

[Jesse]

Really. He did it unapproved.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He raised the warm level of defcon.

[Harold Malmgren]

He didn't have that power. I mean, we're surprised. But anyway, he may have had that power.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Interesting.

[Harold Malmgren]

Anyway, I mean, when I look back and think, Jesus, you know, I stood in the way of this historic bigger bomb. I mean, he could have stood up and tried to beat me up. I mean, he's that kind of person. When he stormed that, what a relief to the whole group. But it was the first in a series of evident clashes between him and jfk. It was personal somehow. It all radiated. This is not about Russians only. Something was going on in his head. We learned later about some of the other things.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well. Yeah, which is this crucial kind of juncture where, you know, I think actually Eisenhower had kind of left his. His second term slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially he was willing to kind of go along with his plans, and JFK didn't quite know what to think. And after the Bay of Pigs, it was really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of, you know, quote unquote, deep state, and they had sort of their own plans, and they really wanted to oust Castro and Guevara. And then you had jfk, and he felt like this whole thing was just botched. And they. They send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution, but it's kind of half done. And the exiles are actually left kind of isolated. Doesn't quite work out. And then you have this rift where you have people like Curtis LeMay and Alan Dulles in complete loggerheads with JFK. JFK gets angry, says, I want to scatter the CIA to the winds.

[Harold Malmgren]

The President's saying he's going to bring the CIA into a thousand pieces.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Is that roughly right?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, that's right. So this. This was the President, that period to what became a clash over how do we respond when we have an excuse? And Curtis LeMay said, at least let me send my bombers after some strategic facilities of the Russians. But how do you sort out for the Russians point of view? Bombers coming at us, we don't know their trajectory. We can't study that. It's not like a missile, you know, once it's fire, you know where it's going. So high risk. And I said, this doesn't make sense. So everybody agreed except Kuzme. And he blew up when he thought he was going to dominate. Well, I mean, I didn't know that this was a moment of history and that somehow my arguments won. But on the other hand, I thought this is why Maximo sent me down here.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, that seems it's such an act of genius to him on his part to call you in as a 27 year old to stagnate these sort of more aggressive, you know, guys like Curtis LeMay. And you think of the way Robert McNamara is depicted in like, you know, Errol Morris's Fog of War just as an example. And he's seen as this sort of warmonger and this, you know, cuts completely against that.

[Harold Malmgren]

McNamara, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000 burning to death and 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none, and then had our soldiers crossed the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing? Yeah, yeah. No, his instruction, he said, these guys are coming in that room, Some of them have sidearms that are fully loaded with the safety of.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Oh my God.

[Harold Malmgren]

There has to go. So your task is lower the temperature.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

And see if you can't stretch it out. Give us time to work something out.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What foresight on his part.

[Harold Malmgren]

Johnston island was the center of launch and experimental activity for the 1962 High Altitude Weapon effects testing termed Operation Fishbowl.

[Jesse]

Running from April to October of 1962. Operation Dominic was a classified American program conducting 31 nuclear test explosions in the Marshall Islands. These tests were designed to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes in space and near space. One of these tests, Starfish prime, created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over 1400 kilometers, knocked out street lights, triggered burglar alarms and caused electrical surges in nearby Hawaii. It also produced an artificial aurora visible from Hawaii to New Zealand. And it even created a man made radiation belt similar to the Van Allen Belt that destroyed multiple satellites. The last few tests of this series were the Bluegill tests which involved a unique X ray based missile defense system. And Harold was put in charge of doing all of the cost assessments for this test.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Tell us about the Bluegill triple prime test.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I arrived in Washington summer of 62. In 61, there were two high level tests of an incoming missile and an interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it. Those two tests failed. Summer of 62 I arrived and first I'm in the middle of this missile crisis and then before it's barely over hell, would you set up a small group, we'll give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future. I said yeah, that's something that DARPA should do with a basket. I said no, no, what we want is a concise back of the envelope calculation. What should be the elements of it, what would it cost and how much would it cost for the enemy to offset it? I said okay, I'll take it out. And I got that assignment. I'm thinking holy cow, this is huge. And they gave me these people on the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the weapon systems evaluation group. Who am I talking to? These guys.

[Jesse]

Missile defense was a major priority for, for the United States in the heart of the Cuban Missile crisis. While American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets, the US still didn't have precise ways of defending against a nuclear attack. But there were some novel ideas in missile defense at the time. In 1961 the Rand Corporation wrote a report called Some New Considerations concerning the Nuclear Test Ban which highlighted the susceptibility of the US ICBM reentry vehicles to high energy X rays.

[Pippa Malmgren]

To say this is a piece of steel and it's in outer space if you impinge high energy X rays on this side.

[Jesse]

So what that does is blows chunks off the inside at hypersonic speeds. This novel insight made its way into the operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests. Here's where it gets interesting. These X ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs.

[Harold Malmgren]

So I just got that going. And test number three in that series in October was a success. If I remember the days, it was while we were busy with Cuba.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, it was during the Cuban Missile crisis actually. The Bluegill triple prime. So it was October of 1962. Right.

[Harold Malmgren]

So I got a report because I'm in charge of this new project. The same report that went to JFK. Now you can assume JFK, it was read by McGeorge Bundy. That's his job. I knew it must have been read by Machinery and John McNaughton, the general counsel. They were all interactive and almost certainly lbj because Vice President. Anyway, lo and behold they dashed down. I said wait a minute, I'm puzzled here. In the report you've given me. You have videos of Taking them this incoming missile with especially enhanced X ray projection system. But when you did that, you noticed that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen and joined and tagged along following the incoming missile down.

[Danny Sheehan]

By the way, can I just interject? Because for me, and I kind of got my dad a little up to speed on the whole why is Congress pursuing non human intelligence? Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? And so when we started talking about this, he says there's this orb around the missile. And I'm like, so didn't you think that was weird? And I realized that actually I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't. They knew it wasn't Russian. They knew it wasn't in those days it was never going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So dad said, yeah, we called it a tag along. A tag along. Like didn't you ask what it was? And he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked any questions at that time. And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions.

[Harold Malmgren]

When I saw this object, which I called a tag along.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's what you would call them, tagalongs.

[Harold Malmgren]

Wow. What else?

[Pippa Malmgren]

So that it's so casual that you just call them tag alongs.

[Danny Sheehan]

That's why I think they were so inured to seeing them. They were like, yeah, tag along.

[Jesse]

The UFO nuclear connection was a complete open secret among top military brass in the 50s and 60s. In a 1952 look magazine article titled the Hunt for the Flying Saucer, chief UFO investigator for the Air Force, Captain Edward J. Ruppelt is quoted saying that many of the sightings reported had originated at one atomic weapons related site or another all around the country. In fact, while the Operation Dominic tests were going on in 1962, an Avco Mark 4 reentry vehicle attached to an Atlas 8F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic Missile Range in September. This is the footage that was taken from that test. At the 4 minute and 40 second mark in the video, an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the reentry vehicle which is traveling at 20,000ft per second or Mach 18. The official US Air Force NASA post flight report even states that the object's quote unquote origin or identification could not be determined. The very next month after this Atlas test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Bluegill triple prime test in October of 1962 in the Marshall Islands. The point is this was the backdrop for the Bluegill tests. One in which the military, scientific and political elite in America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

[Harold Malmgren]

Anyway, when the, when the incoming missile reaction to this blast of X ray at that moment, the report said this appeared to knock down this device. They called it. I said the TAG alarm. And so I got really. I didn't react to it with shock. I thought let's find out what that was. And was there a recovery? Yes. The Navy had recovered, but fell. Tell me about it. Oh, we can't do that. You have need to know about the incoming missile and the test, but not about the TAG alarm. Why not?

[Danny Sheehan]

And just to be clear, you've got all the cue clearances, right? Not some of them. You've got all the cue clearances.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, well, including.

[Danny Sheehan]

And they say no, you don't need to know.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Why?

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I had a blanket. Besides top secret and all that stuff, Amy, I had presidential clearance for the highest level stuff that comes to the President. I mean I had been given everything, but especially that they gave me a blanket cube clearance Q was for any nuclear weapons. Why was that separate? Because that was managed by the Atomic Energy Commission. That was in law, separate.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of bound up in atomic secrecy in the Atomic Energy Commission. The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets. And you don't even have access to the UFO stuff with all of your cube clearances.

[Jesse]

Two KC135 aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage. Australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Cruikshank, who's done the most in depth analysis of this test, calls these two pieces of footage Kettle one and kettle two.

[Pippa Malmgren]

A bright fiery object tumbles out from within the nuclear fireball.

[Harold Malmgren]

You believe that that is some kind.

[Jesse]

Of craft, just like the one that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Was following the Atlas 8F test. But this time it was a real warhead.

[Jesse]

You can see clearly from the Kettle one footage of the nuclear blast. An unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball. The official report written about this test at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. The report tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage. There is no evidence to indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball. So it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile. If that's not weird enough, these videos were declassified to the public in 1998. At the declassification review, the Defense Special Weapons agency, led by Dr. Byron L. Wristvet, applied a large white triangle to the footage, sanitizing it right where you can see the object tumbling out of the plume. In the Kettle one footage, there's well.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Known animosity between Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore Labs. Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft, Los Alamos ran the other. The reason why the Kettle one footage was declassified and Kettle two wasn't was.

[Jesse]

Simply a personal difference in what should.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Remain classified and what shouldn't.

[Jesse]

Then on October 21, 2023, when Jeffrey Cruikshank sent a mandatory declassification review request to the Department of Energy asking them to declassify this kettle 2 footage which had been sanitized, the Department of Energy responded saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They were literally saying they lost the footage of one of their most important high altitude nuclear tests. And maybe all you need to know is that Bluegill Triple prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized and classified to this day.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Sorry, that's classified.

[Jesse]

And tellingly, look at what happened when a Freedom of Information act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration registration generally around these 1962 Operation Dominic tests. The exact request was for all records that quote, unquote, mention or relate to Starfish prime and any of the following ufo, ap, uav, aav. Any acronym used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for Unidentified Flying objects. The National Nuclear Security Administration responded. The letter back In June of 2022 reads, it was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required. First of all, who are the subject matter experts on UFOs? Second of all, this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information act request that specifically ask for information on UFOs. Finally, we have an eyewitness of the Bluegill Triple prime test. Who is alive today. A former Navy sailor named David Noble Whitecrow. He's spoken to UFO investigator Richard Dolan and look at what he told Dolan.

[Harold Malmgren]

The witness was a man named David.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He was part of what was called Operation Dominic.

[Harold Malmgren]

He was aboard a ship called the.

[Pippa Malmgren]

USS Finch, 19 miles south southwest of Johnson island or Johnson Atoll. The date is October 26, 1962. At 9:59am they launched this missile. Suddenly he hears on the loudspeaker the voice of the ship's captain saying, everyone.

[Harold Malmgren]

Below deck, other than a few essential.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Personnel and they're preparing for damage control. After 15 minutes an officer goes down in there and he selects about a dozen of these guys including David, and.

[Harold Malmgren]

They'Re, they're ordered to look directly forward toward the horizon and they were not.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Allowed to have any conversation.

[Harold Malmgren]

So after.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Some time, I don't know.

[Harold Malmgren]

How long, the officer in charge orders them to look 10 degrees off the starboard bow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So at this point, this is a direct quote from David.

[Jesse]

I wrote this entire thing down.

[Harold Malmgren]

He said to me, lo and behold, what appeared in the sky.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What I saw was a huge cigar shaped object coming toward us at 10 degrees and about 15 to 20 degrees off the horizon.

[Jesse]

And what about the most senior official present at Operation Bluegill Triple Prime? If you're ahead honcho, and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business as usual. Well, the logs of a nearby Navy ship, the USS Summit county on 26 October 1961 refer to a SOPA or a senior officer present afloat being on board the ship. That officer was General Alfred Starboard, the joint task force 8 commander of operation Dominic. He was positioned around 15 nautical miles from surface zero of bluegill triple prime, which is the closest allowable distance by the range safety officer. William Ogle, the Los Alamos J Division weapons Design chief was General Starboard's deputy for operation Dominic Ogle writes that General Starboard left Johnston island at 4am the night of Operation Bluegill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the Summit county ship to taking off on a jet from Johnston island in under four hours. There were still very important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately. Maybe because of this successful UFO tag along shoot down.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, what they said is that your project designation was this, you know, anti ballistic mishap, but we didn't anticipate this unidentified object, but it's not part of your designation. So I said that that's bullshit. So I said I need to know what you learned. Now I'm sure in different words that's what came out of the White House to the people running the test who were under the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission under Lawrence G. Who was in charge of all this stuff. He was head of the Albuquerque division of the Atomic Energy Commission but he was running everything that he oversaw, everything that had to do with Los Alamos.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And high level tests and he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather through adoption.

[Harold Malmgren]

Amazing yeah, it explains a lot. Bezos talked about in some of his earlier reminiscences to reporters. He spent all his summers with his grandfather.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Interesting. Really?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Ah, yes.

[Harold Malmgren]

Grandfather had a farm. Ah. So I'm sure he had several summers of space. And look what's out there.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And now he's got blue origin. It's so funny. It's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it seems.

[Harold Malmgren]

Right. So two things happened. I pressed hard. You know, you have to let me know what took place. So they said, well, for that, you have to come down.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You pressed hard with Lawrence Geiss, and you said, I want to know.

[Harold Malmgren]

I didn't know him. That I was talking.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Okay. But somebody at the Atomic Energy Commission.

[Harold Malmgren]

Said, you know, I need to know. I'm going to decide what I need to know.

[Danny Sheehan]

Just. Just to back up. So you go out to Los Alamos, you get briefed, you meet Lawrence Gies, and like, literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly, jfk, lbj, and their teams are going to Los Alamos. So I asked the question, dad, how often does a president of the United States go to Los Alamos? The answer is never. So what was so extraordinary that they all suddenly rush out there? And this is what I think it was about. Great insight into.

[Harold Malmgren]

It was about the tiger loan. That's what they wanted to know about. They weren't all fascinated by the test.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Of time, by the tag along itself.

[Jesse]

So what did.

[Pippa Malmgren]

When you came out two weeks before then, what did you find? What did they tell you?

[Harold Malmgren]

I met Lawrence Gies. He said, I have this letter saying that I can brief you. I said, thank you, because I really. He said, well, the test details are controlled by Naval Intelligence. It was interesting. He said, they don't share everything with the Navy Department. They are an autonomous entity. They are more secure than any other intelligence agency.

[Pippa Malmgren]

It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. Just be. Remember the mighty CIA. Not on their fully approved list to circulate. So I can talk about that on another occasion. But anyway, so I said, well, what am I here to find out? He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down. I'm looking at Round Rock.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So you're looking at, like, anomalous material.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Debris.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah, but debris or images.

[Harold Malmgren]

The brain. Wow. No, instead of handling them.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Harold Malmgren]

At Los Angeles, I was told by those keys. Yeah. Put your stuff in your hands, Play with it. See what it feels like.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What did it feel like.

[Harold Malmgren]

It felt weird because it didn't feel anything. We know.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What color was it?

[Harold Malmgren]

The color of something in space.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What's the color of something in space?

[Harold Malmgren]

Depends on the light in the room or the light for the camera.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Was it.

[Jesse]

Was it heavy?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, the objects were like. I mean, I picked them up. They didn't. I didn't put them down. They went through heaven.

[Pippa Malmgren]

If you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved, would you think that it was at all different than, like random rocks or something? Okay.

[Harold Malmgren]

I didn't know how it was retrieved. It was, but he said, no, this is. Some of. He said, I have it on my desk just as an example. I mean, he didn't say it for visitors, but, I mean, whatever reason he.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Had it there, was it emitting alpha beta gamma radiation, anything like that?

[Harold Malmgren]

I don't know. I don't know if he. He must have known it was safe. I mean, had all this instrumentation around, anyway, so I, you know, I just. What have we learned? Because it does pertain to designing a missile system of what kinds of things can interfere with it or might emulate or. We just need to know more. Who else is studying this? We need to know about knowledge in other quarters. China or wherever. Russia. We feared Russia. Science more than China at that time. Anyway, he explained, this is not the first case of other unidentified objects or phenomena. There's a history. Now, he didn't go into the history with me. He just said, do your research. I said, so you're telling me anyway, what the Navy says I can't know. Yes. He said, yes, but probably you saw the original. My bet is that that part of the test. The video will have been scrubbed, which was. But. And he repeated, that's Navy Intelligence. They were another. They live in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more powerful than we are.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But do they still live in their own world?

[Danny Sheehan]

Yes, that's what everybody says.

[Jesse]

There are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harald relayed to Pippa before he passed. Namgum can trust confirmed that the entire Bluegill shoot down was an attempt to down a ufo. Malmgram explicitly told this to Pippa, his daughter and Jeffrey Cruikshank. He also told this to Senate intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed.

[Harold Malmgren]

What Momgren reported that he'd been told.

[Jesse]

Directly by Bissell is that we downed.

[Pippa Malmgren]

A UFO that was monitoring, closely monitoring.

[Jesse]

That test, and it tumbled into the.

[Harold Malmgren]

Ocean and that the Navy picked it up.

[Jesse]

So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with nukes and destabilize their flight paths with EMPs. See, EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the magnetosphere of the earth. If you're flying at incredible speeds in a ufo, you probably need to use some form of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the magnetosphere of the earth in order to navigate. Birds even do this. They use avian cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the earth and navigate home. This form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a ufo. So when you disrupt the local magnetic field, you could cause a UFO to spin out, Lose control and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely requires megavolt range electricity and extremely strong electric field strength over long periods of time. Which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries. I think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source. If the X ray induced shockwave from the Bluegill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably disrupt the power source of a ufo. The second missing detail here is that when Harold was holding the UFO pieces Lawrence Geiss had given him, they seemed to telepathically communicate with him. He heard words in his head when he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope in UFO world When it comes to people handling material firsthand. Malmgrim forgot the exact words, but he felt like they were important and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subject conscious. He also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence Geiss had given him. He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to the pieces Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed Lawrence Geiss's test and realized there was far more to this tag along UFO phenomenon than met the eye. Malmgrim had clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy. He needed to get fully read in. That's when he received a full briefing on otherworldly technologies by Richard Bissell.

[Harold Malmgren]

Who?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Who is Richard Bissell?

[Harold Malmgren]

Okay, so a few months after this series of episodes Missile crisis Los Alamos. Richard Bissell called me up and said I'd like to spend some time talking to you. Maybe Friday afternoons after work would be good. I said sure. I knew who he was. He was deputy Director of CIA and he was in the news a lot because he had been the one who helps work developed the U2.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And Area 51 at the time was an atomic testing site. And he thought it'd be a good idea to test the U2 basically right next door.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. So this I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology stuff. I didn't know at that time his fortune was that he was in charge of the Invade Cuba Bay of Pigs operation too. Anyway, I knew he was somebody considerable of knowledge and obviously strong enough to run a big part of the empire of CIA. So I sat down, brought a bottle of whiskey out and said, we don't have to drink all of this. He said, I've talked to everyone around you. You were one of the best kids, but I was told you were the youngest because you came in a little bit after the others. And also that most of them were four or five years older, but you were the star in terms of agility and ability to work with the top level people without friction. In other words, I'm lifeless smart ass. So you're almost certainly on a curve where you'll continue to be at that level. So there are things you need to know. And then he went into quite a bit, but it was not only about what we still were calling UFOs at that time, but it was about CIA operations worldwide. The complexity to times when the President and CIA were not working in concert. But it happens when you have a big system like that, it develops a life of its own.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What did he say about UFOs and other world technology? And then what did he say about CIA's, the global nature of their operation?

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, it all went down simply to they were opposed to anything which threatened their control. And these unidentified UFOs, we didn't have the UAP word yet. They presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control. And they interfered perhaps with what CIA was doing with private industry. There was a lot of interaction between Lockheed Martin and CIA where they would.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Show up around specific atomic testing or around specific technology development or many types of technology development.

[Harold Malmgren]

I mean.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So it's almost like the UFOs are more. It's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development.

[Harold Malmgren]

That'S at the heart of it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah. Which is if you read the Three Body Problem by, you know, this amazing Chinese science fiction trilogy, I show the movie. Yeah. It seems like something like that is almost the case according to Richard Bissell. Wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yep.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And so what does he say? So he briefs you on quote unquote, other world technologies. That to me belies almost human knowledge of these technologies. Not just like these things are randomly showing up when we're making advanced technology.

[Harold Malmgren]

He said this is real. We don't know these phenomena. Also we don't know what the Russians and Chinese and anyone else knows that itself is threatening. Now at that time, China was not as threatening to us as Russia. We always overrated Russia in my judgment. And we underrated the Chinese obsession to focus in on something very specific, which was the technology race. So but anyway, it just wanted me to know that there were all these conflicting forces of power in play and that they had influence on leadership in many countries, not just Washington. And it tends to run deep into local politics depending on where the interests were. Now he didn't mention Arkansas, but when I reflect back, I probably was on his mind. Why am I not on the front page of the paper at Ryan Airport or any other airport with a load of dope, with a load of guns.

[Jesse]

Did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along? That the Bluegill test was actually always intended to be a directed energy based UFO shoot down? Well, tellingly, Harold told Pippa on his deathbed and off air that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being that survived the Roswell crash in 1947. This being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash. Harold even told Pippa that later in his career he saw the video of this creature being being interviewed. And there's a direct link between the Bluegill triple Prime tests and Star wars or the Strategic Defense Initiative that later took place in the 80s. You see, the Bluegill triple prime tests inspired Edward Teller's X ray based Excalibur designs which formed the basis of Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, popularly known as Star Wars. Star wars involved a massive network network of directed energy weapons for missile defense. It also involved satellite tracking, an immaculate constellation if you will, for UFO shoot downs and tracking. This of course begs the question, was Star wars always dual use and intended for shooting down and quarantining uap? And if these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash, it begs the very important, important question. Are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war? Ultimately one can only speculate. But it is important to note that before he briefed Malmgren, Richard Bissell had to have known about all of this. Remember at the time he was Deputy Director of Plans for the entire CIA and he would go on to become deputy director for the entire organization, its number two. So he was likely well aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell. Bissell also founded Area 51 in 1955, and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early 50s. So he had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection. Bissell likely also understood the secret UFO related intentions of the Bluegill Test all along. But Harold goes deeper. He implies that Bissell knows about this other layer of reality, a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to be managed by elements of the US Government for decades.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you think Richard Bissell sort of knew that you were, you were sort of an heir to him in sort of a more like spiritual sense or something?

[Harold Malmgren]

I think he was very spiritual and he was looking for someone who was somehow connected.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Connected to what?

[Harold Malmgren]

Whatever was happening with other worldly forces.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Have you looked, have you looked for people like that?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, I'm reading about them all the time.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you?

[Harold Malmgren]

He said this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned that 1933 Magenta. He did, yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta Crash.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Jesse]

That's amazing.

[Danny Sheehan]

Exactly.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That is such corroboration, because that is a highly conflicted account. 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in Magenta, Italy. I fully trust David Grusch. But that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then.

[Harold Malmgren]

He mentioned it. Wow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Italian government moved it to a secure.

[Jesse]

Air base in Italy for the rest.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And you know, the Pope Pius XII back channeled that.

[Harold Malmgren]

So the Vatican was involved.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And told the Americans what the Italians had and we ended up scooping it.

[Harold Malmgren]

So he said this. Yeah, he said this did not begin. And you need to know the background. How did it end up that Truman transferred that object from Italy? The steps getting there was arranged by Alan Dulles. But that went back to what Tiffany mentioned.

[Jesse]

And he said the steps that Allen.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Dulles helped with the crash retrieval.

[Danny Sheehan]

And remember Alan Dulles? And so John Foster Dulles and Allen Dulles are twins.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

And John Foster Dulles is running the oss, the precursor to US Intelligence, out of Switzerland. And then I asked, I said, dad, why was he running it out of Switzerland? How the heck does that happen? And he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of US law.

[Harold Malmgren]

Let me explain. After all this, all these events a few years back when I was still an official in the office of the trade representative. Well, I was the principal. I was invited by. You know, Switzerland doesn't have a president. The leader revolves around the Canton leaders. But whoever was the leader. That year I visited the government about several matters and they said, would you like to see the office of Allen Dulles when he lived here? So I said, oh, it'd be fun today. Beautiful apartment overlooking the river. And we got talking. I said, how do you explain why he chose to be here? He said, oh, that's simple. He told us when he got permission to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in Switzerland, no American law could reach him. That's just something he did that was illegally moral or otherwise in the United States. So he said he was here all the time and it was to allow him a free hand to do the most terrible things if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was a creepy guy. Now, going back to 1933, the relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's Father Angleton and the Knights of Malta. Wow. Because the Knights of Malta said their long historical connection with the Vatican and indeed have this special diplomatic status. You know, you can have an international passport for the night. I forget how. What state. It's a something. It's a sovereign state for a handful of people, yes, but it's all connected with the Vatican.

[Jesse]

According to multiple accounts, including UFO whistleblower David Grush, a disc like object measuring roughly 10 to 12 meters in diameter came down near Magenta in Lombard Lombardi, Italy in June of 1933. 1933 was the first recovery in Europe under Benito Mussolini's fascist regime. A total media blackout was imposed throughout the Stefani news Agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship, a special investigative body known as Gabinetto or Rs33 formed to study the craft with high level figures such as Mussolini, Air Marshal Italo Balbo and Nobel laureate and radio pioneer Marconi believed to have been involved. Testimony suggest that the downed craft and possibly two recovered bodies were taken to the SIAI Marchetti private aerospace hangars for intensive analysis. This secret research group reportedly drew up a nine step protocol to manage the Magenta crash and any similar future incidents. The instructions included immediate immediate site containment, arrests of all witnesses and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention. Sounds very similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell. Marconi, long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents and later family confirmations indicate Marconi genuinely believed the craft could be non human. In the late 1930s, Pope Pius XII became aware of the magenta retrieval, reportedly fearing that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands once Italy allied with Germany. Through discrete channels, the Pope quietly informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location. This backchannel intelligence set the stage for the Office of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program and the predecessor to the CIA in World War II, to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end. Working under a secret project called MacGregor, OSS operatives targeted advanced Axis technology, including the rumored crashed UFO. By 1945, the Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study.

[Harold Malmgren]

Wright Patterson Air Force Base Dayton, Ohio.

[Jesse]

Many of the top Nazi scientists, as a part of Operation Paperclip that the Allies had exfiltrated, also made their way to Wright Patterson to work on the magenta craft. Malta, as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity, would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy. Initially, when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded in the UFO story, I had no idea what to think. It sounded like a plotline from a Dan Brown or Umberto Eco secret society associated with the Vatican and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy. Go figure. But not only were Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton Knights of Malta and remember, James Jesus Angleton seemed to be responsible for a lot of counterintelligence around UFOs that came out from the 50s to the 80s. But the bizarre Knights of Malta UFO connection runs even deeper after further research. Colonel Philip J. Corso, later famous for his claims regarding reverse engineering alien materials at the Pentagon in his book the Day After Roswell, served as a high ranking intelligence officer in Italy during the post war period. In fact, he was the personal liaison to the future Pope. He was also a Knight of Malta. He was also a main figure in Operation Paperclip and helped create the quote unquote rat lines exfiltrating Nazi scientists and technology. In fact, many Nazi scientists specifically specializing in exotic propulsion made their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base after World War II. Perhaps the most powerful general at the time, General Douglas MacArthur and his whole intelligence staff, Knights of Malta. Many of his staff displayed an unusual interest in the possibility of a interplanetary war. And they framed alien related eschatology in the exact same terms Corso did. During a 1955 speech at West Point, General MacArthur told assembled cadets, the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the Earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets. Chief OSS member and another CIA founder, Wild Bill Donovan, who journalist Chris sharp notes was likely not only involved in the magenta crash retrieval, but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals, was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic energy director turned CIA director John McCone, later CIA director Bill Casey. Knights of Malta. Remember that FDR was responsible for for the communications with the Vatican about the crashed magenta craft? Well, President Roosevelt's Vatican envoy, Myron Taylor, also a Knight of Malta, maybe. Religious studies professor Diana Walsh Basalka, who has visited the Vatican archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye about UFOs, isn't so crazy after all. Maybe she's spot on. And look at the group that are supposedly engaged engaging in UFO crash retrievals today. Jsoc, or the Joint Special Operations Command. According to journalist Seymour Hersh, one of the modern heads of JSOC, General Stanley McChrystal, and many of the members of JSOC themselves are all Knights of Malta.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Does the DOE currently work with jsoc?

[Jesse]

We work with all of the security.

[Danny Sheehan]

Entities around the federal government.

[Harold Malmgren]

Do you guys work with jsoc, yes or no?

[Danny Sheehan]

Yes, we do.

[Harold Malmgren]

Okay.

[Pippa Malmgren]

There are Templars at the Vatican.

[Harold Malmgren]

It's a residue of the truth or the myth whatever, of Knights of the Templars.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, what I'm saying is, yeah, they did because Angleton was there.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So for context for the audience, James Jesus Angleton was sort of one of the original founders of the CIA. Dulles was sort of a mentor to him. He was a Skull and Bones kid and ends up in Italy. And he's kind of this eccentric, debonair, interesting guy who was also really just good at conniving and lying. And so Angleton's father, Hugh Angleton, was involved with the Knights of Malt.

[Harold Malmgren]

He was a member.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He was a member. And so. And then. So he's.

[Harold Malmgren]

Wow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So he's involved in the Vatican. Which makes it more likely that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do with the retrieval of that ufo, the magenta crash, which was kept at the Vatican.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, I'm speculating now, but no doubt in my mind about myself.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You're speculating, but there's so many connections. There's even a guy named John Warner iv, who is the grandson of Paul Mellon and the son of Senator John Warner. And he tells this story where he's three martinis in to a dinner or whatever with Paul Mellon. And Paul Mellon recalls the story. Paul Mellon's one of the founders of the CIA and he's with Alan Dulles doing tech retrieval. And specifically he says, I'm in Czechoslovakia and I'm standing on top of a saucer with Alan Dulles. And my grandfather said, look, we were in a facility, a hangar, and we saw a German flying disc. And I said, you know, oh, is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines?

[Harold Malmgren]

And he laughed and he said, no.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Basically implying that it was like this anomalous object. And right there in Czechoslovakia and modern day Poland is this thing called Kamler Stab, where Hans Kamler, the most ruthless Nazi, was doing the most kind of black world technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers and had there's this rumor of this thing called Die Glocker. And so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also have Dulles and Paul Mellon standing on top of this saucer. And when the magenta object crashed, supposedly there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, I don't really know what to do with this.

[Jesse]

Is this yours?

[Pippa Malmgren]

And then Hitler said, no, it's not ours, but we should work on it together. We should collaborate. So there are actually a lot of data points around this. You start to build this picture up. So Bissell said that too. That's amazing.

[Danny Sheehan]

The Italians, even to this day.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

Are amongst the most innovative in defense technology in the world.

[Jesse]

That's so interesting.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So maybe that there's some inherent in technology or something.

[Harold Malmgren]

Let me say tell you one factoid that is not well known in America. When we look at the world, we say the second most important military force is the UK and especially the raf. But they have really dwindled in importance. And I didn't know this until recently, but I'm somewhat rather actively connected with the military world. I have a book coming out with essays on geosecurity of the last 25 years. It's coming up soon.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Amazing.

[Harold Malmgren]

And anyway, no UAPs in that book, but one of the people introducing the book was the chief of the Italian Air Force. And I said, that's a little bit odd. And the editor said, no. In Europe today, the most important air force besides the US is the Italian Air Force. I have no idea, really.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So they might be more advanced than meets the eye.

[Harold Malmgren]

They're more advanced than the rest of them in Europe.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. This is news to me.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But, you know, I think of Italian, I guess, the cars as being fast but unreliable and that. But wow, the Air Force.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

Well, northern Italy has world class engineering, German level engineering, and they have it in many fields. And I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War, the Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffe had been such a threat. And as a result, the Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology about not quite 10 years ago. And the Germans are very strong in that. And I started to also realize how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in history is, it's not, well, as well understood as it could be. And I just wonder, was this part of what drove the decision to create what we now call the Axis? That because the Italians assumed that this super high tech thing must be German. And that began their dialogue and as they aligned, that became the Axis.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Danny Sheehan]

And then again, back to George C. Marshall and the team that is basically cleaning up after the end of World War II and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced technologies. They must be brought to the United States. And that Operation Paperclip, period. And again, who's already there? It's all these cast of characters and where have they been based? Italy.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's amazing. It's so fascinating.

[Danny Sheehan]

Again, there's no proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry.

[Pippa Malmgren]

But there's so much corroborating. Now we have Richard Bissell to add to the Dulles Paul Mellon story to add to David Grusch's recent testimony. So we are building up this, you know, important corroborative narrative.

[Harold Malmgren]

I'm just mentioning in passing, you know, this walking stick I have, it's from an old shop, it's an old car, but I was told it was Paul Mellon's walking stick.

[Jesse]

No way.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's so interesting. How'd you end up with that?

[Danny Sheehan]

Oh, they live in the same part of Virginia. Okay.

[Harold Malmgren]

What? I didn't know Paul Mellon, but I knew all the people around him.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yep.

[Harold Malmgren]

Including his wife.

[Pippa Malmgren]

How?

[Harold Malmgren]

Oh, and his personal. I would call him, ran the fox hunt for him and took care of the horses and, you know, he had racehorses, everything. That guy became a close pal of mine. So I heard all these stories about Paul Mellon. So I didn't meet Paul Mellon, but I know more about his life than you would imagine. Including all his girlfriends.

[Danny Sheehan]

Oh, gosh.

[Harold Malmgren]

But I have his walking stick.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's so interesting. That's why I kind of. I feel like we should put it in the shot or something.

[Harold Malmgren]

It was sent to me as part of my mission, but, you know, I still don't know my purpose. Thanks, Peppa.

[Jesse]

And so what, what do you think.

[Pippa Malmgren]

The Knights of Malta play some sort of role in UFOs? And what do you think their role is?

[Harold Malmgren]

Ah, now you're getting to the heart of the residue of that organization that still exists. What form does it take now? I have no idea, but they still have the sovereign state identity.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you think it goes back to the original Templars?

[Harold Malmgren]

I don't know. Okay, but how did they get the sovereign state? The Vatican must have organized it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

They seem to have kind of a lot of top level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta.

[Harold Malmgren]

That's right. So something. Yes, it's a secretive society. I mean, there are all these secret societies. So many things over the years have been. Council on Foreign Relations. Yes, I was a member of the council for, I don't know, 50 years. I dropped out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them large amounts of money. I thought, yeah, you know, I've done my, I paid my dues. But when you get back to the council, power relations and you dig deeper. Well, wait a minute. It wasn't really them. It was some of them select group through Brown Brothers Harriman that set up CIA. You know, the different groups did different things and some of the great financial figures were involved with some but not others. It's not very different from the WEF in Switzerland.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Different group, but there's a Council, Foreign Relations, Knights of Malta connection?

[Harold Malmgren]

No, I would say there's some overlap membership, but no connection. Anyway, Council of Foreign Relations has been diluted and changed and submitted the days of the Second World War and the Cold War. It's now much more diverse and much more defensive of who's ever in power in the White House. I don't know what they're going to do with Trump, but they've been sort of swept along. But progressive Democrats.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Right, so this is. You just brought this in. This is Paul Mellon's walking stick that you ended up with?

[Harold Malmgren]

I can't verify, but that's what I was told.

[Pippa Malmgren]

These are the rumors. What does it represent? Anything? It looks very unique.

[Harold Malmgren]

He has a lot of power.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So that was bestowed upon you. What else? What else did, did Richard Bissell tell you?

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I mean, I think I've explained in essence there are a multiplicity of powers in play at any moment. And around presidents they have certain powers, but they are constrained by These other powers, and among them, the intelligence community is very powerful because it has found a way to fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look at the budget and say, that's what it is. It operates businesses legitimate and illegitimate.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Right. So it's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really capture.

[Harold Malmgren]

And so the Russians do this too. And they even do it in overt ways. They did with this group that the leader was assassinated.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Prigozhin. Prigozhin.

[Harold Malmgren]

Wagner.

[Danny Sheehan]

Wagner group.

[Pippa Malmgren]

A Wagner group, yeah. Prigozhin.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

I mean, they do. That's over. They do it. Not over. The Chinese are everywhere, doing all kinds of stuff, even in Manhattan. So when you weigh actions, you have to take into account what you see and what you don't see. The unseen enemies. I should have been aware of that when I blurted out some of these comments on UAPs and I stumbled into controversy. I have no intention of.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Have you gotten any backlash? Because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter or ads.

[Danny Sheehan]

I usually get it. So dad dropped something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full, like full with people saying, you know, your dad is breaking the Internet.

[Jesse]

But that seems positive. It's mostly positive.

[Danny Sheehan]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

She calls me from some far away place, wakes me up in the morning. You see different hours and dang, you just blew up the Internet.

[Danny Sheehan]

I actually, I called, I said, I leave you alone for five minutes. Breaking the Internet.

[Pippa Malmgren]

I love it.

[Harold Malmgren]

I carefully crafted some backing up language that I was not directly involved with UAP research.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You said, read my words carefully.

[Danny Sheehan]

Nice.

[Harold Malmgren]

Now, if you read them carefully. I was not. I was saying I was not directed to look at that. It was, but I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it. And I knew that eventually this stuff would come out and say, yeah, I knew about that. But I used the words to make it look like I was backing away. Speculation. But I didn't do that. The words didn't suggest I was speculating.

[Pippa Malmgren]

I think this is an issue sometimes with people who are high up in government who want to disclose certain things, but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have or oaths they've sworn or clearances they have, where you'll hear David Grush or something spec, he'll say, this is open source, this is a personal story, and he'll have to caveat constantly with that. And so if you're an average person, you just immediately your skeptical trigger goes off.

[Jesse]

But in Fact, he's trying to do.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You a service and saying, look at this. This is open source. I just don't want to end up, you know, under the gun here because I don't want to. I don't want to, you know, end up in jail. You're giving your enemies fodder.

[Danny Sheehan]

The thing to keep in mind, and as in the research I've done too, is what you find is a lot of this cast of characters, including James Jesus Angleton, who went on to become the key person at the CIA. They all seem to have been part of General George C. Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War. They're all involved with the Marshall Plan somehow or another, including Kennedy and Forrestal for a period, are part of that and so difficult to prove. But strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, Forestalls was supposedly on this Majestic 12. Who knows how much of the Majestic 12 is true, but this sort of, you know, elite military and intelligence advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower and then George Marshall. Also there's this thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in 1942 where UFO shows up and, like flies down the coast. And George Marshall was briefed to that, and so very interesting. Okay, so you have. And then the other connections I think that are important to make with the Marshall Plan is that was kind of immediately after these tech retrieval programs in Europe. So the Nazis had all this advanced technology and you had TYCOM and asos. One was signals intelligence, the other was atomic intelligence. And it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology. And if there was anything involving UFOs there that would sort of be bound up in it.

[Harold Malmgren]

One of my closest friends when I came to Washington was an attorney named Tom Farmer. And Tom and I played tennis together. But turned out Tom had been general counsel of CIA.

[Danny Sheehan]

And he'd been again with the guys doing the Marshall plant.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I was going to say, it turns out he was involved in a project called Paperclip of picking Germans. And the reason why he was born in Berlin of a father who was a US diplomat, but he spoke German fluently. So now it never dawned on me when I. When it was my friend and started asking about Paperclip. But I learned later he knew everything. He was one of the people saying yes for him, no for him. You know.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you believe that advanced technology has benefited from retrieved unidentified aerial objects? So this would be like the Philip Corso Day After Roswell narrative.

[Harold Malmgren]

The answer I would have to give is yes in two ways. In one Way we have learned that some types of propulsion, for example, exist that we never envisaged, never conceived. The second way is that they have revealed a higher level of knowledge than anything we have on Earth. And we don't control it. Now we only recently even. In fact, where is it coming from? We have this new telescope looking up. Where are they? But then we have one revelation by the oceanographer last few days, who says, they are not China, they are not us, they are not, they are not extraterrestrial. Meaning they're either here already under the water or subterranean. That's where they are.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

And then David Grosch, he says, talks about, is it interdimensional?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

They're suddenly and one sort of wonders, like, is this semantics? Like, if you ask officially, are there extraterrestrials? The answer is no, because extraterrestrial means off planet. But it doesn't include if it's interdimensional, if it's ocean based, if it's. Are we actually all talking across purposes?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, it's the reason the All Domain Anomalous Research Office, which is headed up by Kirkpatrick, who has all these sort of. And we should get into the atomic ties to the UFO question. He has all, you know, this whole history and, you know, atomic research. He was at Oak Ridge and he.

[Jesse]

Always rests on, we have no hard.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Evidence of extraterrestrial life. But of course, you know, you have these anomalous things, you haven't done a proper analysis on them, you don't know what they are, you haven't classified them. And so you just, you use. That's like this straw manning way of, you know, explaining the thing away. And for an average person who's not really into the topic, you go, oh, this official is saying that there's no extra. Yeah, but it's always extraterrestrial. So was there anything else that Richard Bissell told you? I hate to harp on that one interaction, but it's so fascinating. You have this guy who's number two at the CIA. He set up Area 51 and he's briefing you on other world technologies. Does he say anything else?

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, he didn't admit to or talk about bad things that had happened. He didn't really get into a discussion about the Bay of Pigs. He didn't raise incidents where we have overturned governments. Somehow he avoided that stuff. But I think most of it was about, if you work at the leadership, whether you are a leader or a guide to a leader, you've got to keep in play in their Minds, the conflicting forces. And a lot of these forces are not on any legal boxes of who has authority over what. You can't do a diagram that is meaningful for the entire US Government because a lot of it is other power networks. Well, there's Michael Turner, who's been. I mean, he was a linchpin for three companies at least, and had. You know, he blocked everything. Sunday, he's removed. That's very unusual. Someone with that much power, usually you have to buy them off. You give them something else more important. You promote them. Someone asked me once, what's the most effective way to get rid of a major enemy? I say you promote them. Give them something more visible where the ego can be pacifying. I did it more than once.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You don't want the.

[Danny Sheehan]

That's funny.

[Jesse]

You don't want them.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want them licking their wounds. You'd rather have them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on.

[Harold Malmgren]

I've never been publicly pugnacious, but there were times. Well, I think Pippa had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time. She told me, dad, I had breakfast with him, and I asked him, how is it dad has so much power, but he has no enemies? People of power have so many enemies. And he said the only thing he would say is, the rumor is none survived. So whether that's true or not, I cultivated that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me very weary.

[Danny Sheehan]

But I think the key here is it's not so much, what did Richard Bissell say directly to dad. Although that has immense value, it's important to capture this for posterity. But it's also an invitation. You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed. It will be known not just in our government, it will be known in other governments. It will be known by the Russians. And that network operates for the whole of your life.

[Harold Malmgren]

There are different sources of information about how communication between JFK and Khrushchev was established. Now, to the average human in the world in which we live, we say, why they pick up the phone. But number one, Khrushchev represented Central Committee. If you were really going to communicate with the Central Committee, you would use Dobryan, the ambassador, who had a direct line, so he was known. So if he didn't serve, I think he may have served us, but we don't know. He didn't disclose. But I know, Gabriel, I can tell you about that later. But, I mean, he Came to know me. I've heard that word, but.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And the American ambassador, was that Walter Stossel or who.

[Harold Malmgren]

The only thing that mattered was number one power communication with Moscow.

[Danny Sheehan]

But that was the official channels. But there seems that there were also unofficial channels.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, there had to be.

[Danny Sheehan]

And one of them was, it seems, Norman Cousins.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

Who was against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Khrushchev.

[Harold Malmgren]

I'm trying to think back. I haven't talked about this before. My first encounter with Dobrynin, as I said, he arrived in 62, a phenomenon unusual. A member of the Central Committee, and I was attending some months after this, in 63, went to one of these Washington galas, you know, the White House press corps roast of the President or one of those. We have those events. And when you invited, you get a seat with a name card. You don't sit where you want. You sit where your name card is. I sat down. This distinguished looking gentleman sat next to me and said, hi, I'm Hal Mongren. He said, yes, I know you. I am Ambassador Doveen. So all my alarms went off. That's not accidental. He chose to sit there, I'm sure, so I'll have to be careful. And he just chatted friendly way. Your name is well known in Russia long before you at these heady levels of decision making. I said, why is that? He said, you are named after your uncle, whose name is identical to mine. He said he was really famous as a chess player, especially among all the security people who are nuts about. And KGB and others about chess, who was the chess champion. And he played many Russians. So he said, you identified as the progeny of that Harold Mamden, which in our way of thinking is such good bloodlines. And so we chatted about that and how coming to Washington was surprised for me. He said, well, you've landed at the center of everything. I said, yeah, I'm surprised. He said, I gather you were in there with the generals. I said, how would you know that? He said, our system is far more thorough. You should be aware of that than you might imagine. I said, yeah. He didn't ask me about what took place, except to say you emerged as someone who was able to talk down the most belligerent American military official of all time. Or of our time, anyway. And so he said, major of interest, how did you do that? Well, like a good chess player, how did you win? And so later we had these encounters, I don't know, once a year or something, unplanned Humans bound me. Let's have a chat. And he did ask. I have never talked about this. He did ask one time, why is everyone so excited about this? Unidentified Flying Objects.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Really?

[Harold Malmgren]

He just innocently. He wasn't kind of pumped intelligence out of me about anything specific. He was very careful. I said, because it's something we don't control. It's very simple. Whatever it is, we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control. He said, nations are never in total control. There are always unexpected challenges. I said, yeah, but tell that to somebody in Washington would do. I mean, they are not students of history in Washington. You know, the emergence of new threats, it's not something easily absorbed. It's not our culture. We're either triumphant or not. Winning the Second World War made us feel really superior. So he said, there's something there, remember he said, that is dividing your country, but maybe could unify other two countries. That's the way he said it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And this is about the UFO subject.

[Danny Sheehan]

So extraordinary.

[Harold Malmgren]

Wow. That's probed it. I think he was looking for me to say something, but I was not privy to those letters between JFK and Khrushchev.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this and use the UFO thing as kind of a unifying, you know, rallying cry or something.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, he was number one reason that's not being misguided by these events to think it might be us versus them, that this is not Russia or the us so we need an early warning system. Those things that you see are not ours. That makes sense how it extended beyond there to the other idea. Maybe we should work together, put the swords down, and let's come up with a way to develop our futures without being mortal enemies. Now, that switch, my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind. And so did I see any note? No, I didn't, but some people did. The fact that he murmured, he expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share our knowledge of UFOs with Russia caused alarm among some officials in Washington. Now, Curtis Lemaine, definitely. But that was one of many things that JFK and he was fighting about some. But it seemed to alarm people at CIA or some people at CIA is a big organization.

[Pippa Malmgren]

There is this letter that was FOIAed, used the freedom of Information act to. To, you know, to get out of the government in 2005. And it's of controversial provenance, so we should caveat that to the audience. But It's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John McCone after he had fired Dulles. And he's basically saying, we need to coordinate. I need all of the data on quote, unquote, unknowns in, in sensitive airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression. And that is basically saying, I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in, you know, some horrible, you know, bomb out scenario due to the UFOs.

[Danny Sheehan]

How do we deconflict?

[Pippa Malmgren]

How do we deconflict.

[Danny Sheehan]

How do we create a regime for deconfliction so that we don't inadvertently fire and it's not the Russians or vice versa.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And in the 1971 salt treaty, it's written into it. It's that sort of same language is written in.

[Danny Sheehan]

It's in there.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And so, so do we think that this letter might be real, this 2005 FOIA letter, or.

[Harold Malmgren]

Very likely.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's amazing. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

[Harold Malmgren]

This is pure speculation until we see. But do I think so? Yes, I think it was probably the number one issue.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Why do you think that?

[Harold Malmgren]

Because from what I read, not what I know, I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFK to Khrushchev, but what I've read is that he wanted to talk openly about the UAP phenomenon and the basis for why don't we stop fighting with each other and join forces and make peace.

[Danny Sheehan]

And he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both sides.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

And that was also a threatened challenge to part of the community. Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And Dulles specifically hated that vis a vis China because it was like, if we didn't have nukes, they would outman us.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. It was worried about numbers.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So you, so, so you think maybe in some of the, that correspondence it was, let's work together on the, the non human intelligence or alien issue. It's, it's funny. Douglas Caddy, who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt. Howard Hunt's this, you know, known CIA longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of, you know, he's like the, the janitor in Watergate or whatever.

[Harold Malmgren]

It's incredible.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And, and he, Douglas Caddy says, you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving these kind of deflection answers and then finally he says it was about the Alien presence?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yep, I think it was.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's fascinating.

[Harold Malmgren]

I think JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What gives you conviction in that?

[Harold Malmgren]

Because he was in Naval Intelligence for a while. He learned most of it from Forrestal. He was in the Intelligence Forrestal as.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Secretary of the Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. And Forestall fully briefed him and talked about it, and he talked about it. You'll have to do the history. But he was fully briefed by Forrestal.

[Pippa Malmgren]

How do we know forrestal knew about UFOs? Because there are tons of rumors. He, you know, managed Admiral Byrd, who engaged in Operation High Jump, you know, bringing probably like 70 or so ships and 33, I think, you know, airplanes and almost 5,000 men down the coast of Argentina and towards Antarctica. And they reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers. But other than that, do we have any real evidence that forstall knew about UFOs?

[Harold Malmgren]

You have to do more research. My research, which tends to be scattered and until recently I haven't tried to organize it, but I found several references to Pearl still for him going to Pearl with questions and getting answers.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Interesting. Well, you know, JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel, who was this famous UFO debunker, but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the deepest, you know, clearances across the board. CIA, NSA and Navy. And so maybe there's some sort of connection there. But did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly?

[Harold Malmgren]

No. No, My interaction with JFK and Bobby was very limited. But I was somehow part of the clan because Serge Schreiber, the brother in law, was the go between. He talked to me all the time. Serge proposed me for, I don't know, several different jobs. And I declined each one. But I was an accepted inner circle person. But Bobby and Teddy, they were consumed with events that seemed to be coming at them faster and faster. If I look back at top management, I would have to say they were operating without an adequate buffer system. So my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way. Neither one of them. When you're a senator, you have a small staff, but you know, you don't. You're operating on your own. You don't know how to run an apparatus. Someone like LBJ came in. He ran the whole damn Senate, some multitude of people at low levels. But JFK came in with small, limited naval experience, but seemed to be Busy with Forrestal.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And do you think Forrestal's death had anything to do with UFOs? So Forestall was sort of pushed out of his position as Secretary of Defense and he was, he was sort of betting on George Dewey against Truman. And then he ends up in this Navy hospital, Bethesda, Maryland, and he sort of, you know, gets killed by gravity, quote, unquote. It's, he's like mid. Writing some Sophocles poem. I think his brother, his brother Harry Forstall had met with him the day before. Said he was totally of sane sound mind.

[Harold Malmgren]

Through a window didn't seem to be openable.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah. And it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the. The whole thing made no sense. So do you think that had anything to do with an interest in the UFO subject?

[Harold Malmgren]

Probably. Wow. But I, I'm not going to speculate.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah. And so, but so after JFK and all these guys, George McBundy, all of his top aides are. They go to Los Alamos, they're presumably given the same sort of briefing that you got. Do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And what makes you think that?

[Harold Malmgren]

I think JFK somehow saw this moment to make world peace. We weren't worried about China at that moment, but why don't we and the Soviets just stop fighting, join forces, exploit what we know together and deal with this force that we don't understand?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

And they're all somehow in that exchange, during the crisis itself, there were communications with Khrushchev. We don't know every word. Maybe some of it is recorded. Some of it may have been through Dobryan, who may have used his lines. He had his method of communication that was theoretically couldn't impregnate. Probably. I seem to establish a working discussion.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Between two guys and that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Actually. Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose and Charlie is saying, she's talking about. Talk to me about your correspondence with Reagan. And Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects. And he says, well, one time we're sitting there, you know, Reagan turns to him and he whispers. He says, if the United States were.

[Harold Malmgren]

Attacked by someone from outer space, would you help us? I said, no doubt about it.

[Danny Sheehan]

He said, we too.

[Harold Malmgren]

So that's interesting.

[Danny Sheehan]

Right now in modern times, we are clearly shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon, there were three other unidentified objects that the military said they shot. Down. And so here's just a very profound question. If this represents higher intelligence or even just intelligence, let alone higher intelligence, is shooting at it the right way to open the conversation? Number one? Number two, generally speaking, you're not supposed to shoot at stuff if you don't know what it is. And so are we locked into a kind of 1950s thinking about this thing because it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to national security that no one can even really discuss this? And are we missing something quite profound because we won't even ask the question? Why are we shooting at something that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Maybe they're sort of waiting. You know, there's one of my favorite quotes, Eden Philpotts. It's like the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to get sharper.

[Danny Sheehan]

Totally.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And there's something about this bi directional. You know, if we ascend to a certain level, maybe we can have communion with these things, but it doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to us until then.

[Danny Sheehan]

Again, regardless of whether it's is real since we can't identify it. What I find again interesting to observe is the level of fear that exists and particularly in that official circles and amongst militaries because of the lack of control, that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat. And you will often hear the discussion of there's this thing in our airspace and I'm like, what if we're in it's airspace?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, right, right.

[Danny Sheehan]

That's just a creative way of thinking.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

What's the definition of airspace in a world where we have a James Webb telescope that is literally millions of miles away?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

We're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we can't even identify. So it's just again, given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we humanity are capable of, we are sending drones millions of miles away. Why are we surprised if we have something here as well? And so it's the way you begin the thought process on this. I fear we're stuck in this mental lockdown that made sense in 1950, but it doesn't make sense in 2025.

[Pippa Malmgren]

It really doesn't. Doesn't even make sense from a national security standpoint, especially not from the primary lens through which we see this. But it is an important lens and it doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. If you have this over compartmentalization and Cold War secrecy where you have these aerospace prime Contractors that were sent to do this, you couldn't use the Freedom of Information act or you wouldn't have civilian oversight or whatever.

[Danny Sheehan]

Plausible deniability, plausible deniability.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And then you have constant compartmentalization. So the left hand side talking to the right, you're not getting the proper coordination. On the most advanced and exciting and interesting R and D on the.

[Danny Sheehan]

I would go a bit further and again, dad and I have talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem, and that is China, Russia, India, they never had what we would call a Cartesian revolution, meaning in the west, the United States and Europe, after Rene Descartes, the philosopher, basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious, the religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this day to have this split. And so therefore you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable, it's not subject to scientific analyses, because that's all about repeatability. But the rest of the world didn't have this split and they still think holistically and you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings. And that is not contradictory in China, in Russia, in India, across Africa. So the question today is, is China, maybe in collaboration with Russia, making more progress because they don't have this mental hang up.

[Harold Malmgren]

If you wanted to study certain kinds of things related to what's called ESP in the United States, you had to.

[Danny Sheehan]

Hide it very carefully because you were crazy.

[Harold Malmgren]

And then the government didn't want you people to think they're supporting crazy stuff. But if you wanted to do the work in Russia, go right ahead, fine, here's your money. Because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible.

[Danny Sheehan]

That's an interesting question, that we can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition. And if China can, is it possible that they will announce this first? And that's part of why I think a lot of this is progressing. There's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure. And that China says we have the fastest supercomputers and quantum computers, we have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys in this round, which looks like it's a real possibility and we have found something. If that is announced, we in the west will go, well, prove it. But the whole rest of the world, in that moment, the danger is all the adulation, admiration of Los Alamos, of NASA. All eyes turn to Beijing and then we can say, well, but this is not scientific and you can't Prove it. But the whole rest of the world is still in awe and wonder. And that is another reason why it's not in our control. Here in the United States, there's a real possibility that our competitors are racing ahead because they haven't got these mental constraints.

[Pippa Malmgren]

I think that's very well said. Yeah. And I hope policymakers and whoever's listening to this listens to that and we make real changes accordingly. We're going to do explain that tweet series with you.

[Danny Sheehan]

Oh God. The ones that had me going, dad, what the heck?

[Harold Malmgren]

I called Curtis LeMay and I said, general, I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all this secret stuff. Can I go in there? I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder in hell me cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You said on X that you thought Curtis LeMay had some knowledge of the UAP topic.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Why do you think that?

[Harold Malmgren]

I never heard him say something about that. But the research that he was into included the nuclear powered airplane for the better project Orion, the better bombers. But he was. I have to think about it. I have a reason somewhere in the back of my head. It may. We're gonna have a break soon. I have to think.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah. He started the Rand Corporation and was. Was interested in Townsend Brown's work as well.

[Harold Malmgren]

Right, right.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So.

[Danny Sheehan]

And Rand did. Right on the subject at the beginning.

[Pippa Malmgren]

They did. And you know who ended up running Rand was the president of Rand for over two or three decades was Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously, you know, the. The successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works.

[Harold Malmgren]

Right.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution.

[Danny Sheehan]

Small group of people that are all interconnected.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes, absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, but I said to you informally, I did not get that from any US source.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What source did he get it from?

[Harold Malmgren]

Foreign intelligence.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you think it is a good source? Do you think it's real?

[Harold Malmgren]

No reason. Why would somebody tell me that?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you know the nature of that collaboration?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, because nobody had associated them. Now, as I say, I have a network whereby it's not a network of secrets, it's a network of trusted people. I mean, during a lot of these recent years, I had friends. The chief, the national security chief for the Japanese Prime Minister was my buddy.

[Danny Sheehan]

Actually, dad, we should say that after you served Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, you were also an advisor to many heads of government. For many European countries, you advised every single Japanese prime minister since Takadaka in 1971. So, I mean, the breadth of the network that he has is. It's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, well, when Nixon went down, Jerry Ford entered the White House. The first full day I got summoned, and he was there with Bill Seidman. And Bill Seidman was, you know, in later years, the head of Resolution Trust and the FDIC and all that. Bill Seaton was brilliant. Anyway, he said, hal, we've got something you want to do. I said, you know, I'm probably going to leave the government soon. Well, don't hurry. We have a lot of things we want you to do, but first of all, we want you to arrange with the NSA a new intelligence system where what is reported of interest to Jerry Ford is what he wants and not what the CIA thinks he ought to want. So I did that the next morning at 6am Living in Georgetown at the time. Somebody knocked on my door. I'm sent by the Director and saying, give me a morning brief. Every day I had, you know, I prefer to get up just a hair later, but anyway. And I said, well, Gerry Ford doesn't need to know about the new mistress for the French Prime Minister. It's not really up his alley. What we do need to know is important things like Russian bookings, ships that might have capacity to move, a lot of hours range because we're worried about inflation. So I went through a list of such things. Oh, this is wonderful. A few weeks after that, the head of nsa, you know, some general, I don't remember his name now, told me, can you have lunch over here? Okay. And he said, you're the best client NSA has ever had. You're telling us what you need. We have huge resources, but we never know what the client wants. So we feed them all kinds of stuff and we give it to CIA, and then they decide what might be of interest to them and they emphasize the love life of most important people.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That sounds like a CIA thing to do or something. Just go for the Kompromat or something.

[Harold Malmgren]

You know, keeps doing tension.

[Danny Sheehan]

But I'm told that your reconfiguration of the intelligence that went. That goes into the Presidential Daily Briefing remains.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Danny Sheehan]

And that the NSA continues to have that input, which they did not have before that time.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

I can't even prove that myself, but that's my. What I'm led to believe after I. After I left government.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on The. The Townsend Brown Tesla collaboration. So do you know anything about the nature of that collaboration?

[Harold Malmgren]

About anti gravity motion. Wow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well because they were both working with high voltage electricity.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. And I think I really would like to read Jessica's workbooks, but they're all in the hands of. You can't have access.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You know who was tasked with retrieving Tesla's files? John Trump, who was an MIT professor. The world's or the country's leading radar expert at the time. And Donald Trump's uncle.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, but he passed them over, didn't he, to Naval Intelligence, isn't that right?

[Pippa Malmgren]

I don't know. That's interesting. And that goes towards your theories around this stuff. And I'm pretty sure Townsend Brown's stuff was classified by the Navy.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes. So, yeah, it had to be, because he was working on submarines.

[Pippa Malmgren]

He was, yeah. And he was part of the Navy up until 1942 when skunk work started. And then he joined Martin Vega Corporation. But maybe he was still working for the Navy because he. He showed up two weeks after leaving the Navy and he sort of left. You know, they said that they dismissed him, but, like, he had an amazing record. And there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert. So there's something around that story that's very interesting.

[Danny Sheehan]

It is fascinating, too, that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK filers. But still no talk of the Tesla papers.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, nobody talks about.

[Danny Sheehan]

And so what's in there that's of such great importance?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, Tesla's another guy. He said he spoke, he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs. And people just, I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever. They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever. But he would. He said that and call, you know, so. And then. And then Townsend Brown would constantly talk about, you know, space brothers and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what he called a shortwave radio. He claimed that that was how he communicated with them.

[Harold Malmgren]

It's quite possible that there was communication improvised. Different ways of. Is there a way to communicate? A short wave radio would be one. Not so hard to do. Harder is to get in somebody's head telepathically, especially because we don't grow up thinking that way.

[Danny Sheehan]

And yet the US government spent a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes, but to the extent that they learned anything between that and lsd, we'll never know, but they, they have some knowledge.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, because this is an interesting kind of question because Stargate, this psychic spy program started by Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ originally, most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services, the CIA. And it was people like Sidney Gottlieb and a lot of his comrades who were working on this stuff. And then post church commission that kind of changed. But yeah, how far do you think we went when it came to kind of mind control? And you know, it's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view, draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of things like that. Even Jimmy Carter is on record saying the craziest thing of my presidency from 1976 to 1980 was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding a downed TU22 Russian cargo plane. And she was given all of Africa as a target. And she circled three square miles in Zaire and they found the plane.

[Harold Malmgren]

And the next time one of our space satellites went over that area, we located the plane where she said it was.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So that's clear. But do you think we've gone farther in their sort of mind control techniques that we have?

[Harold Malmgren]

Very likely, but we don't know, do we?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

Personally, when I think about always being at some critical point, all these interconnectivities for men I keep looking for where's the direction coming from. I mean I don't feel any direct. On the other hand, when I grew up, my mother was a powerful personality, brain, meaning she could read my mind. She said, why did you do that? I don't remember doing that. Yes you do. Let me see, it was 3rd of January, 1942 or something, you know, and I thought how she'd do that so she could do it. But I couldn't do that with her. But on the other hand, I sometimes feel there's this hand over me that's leaned a little left or leaning right. That's the closest I have to it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into a lot of this, you know, townsend, Brown and UFOs.

[Harold Malmgren]

I feel guided. And why did I hear about that? Because I, I showed a deep interest. I sent a tweet saying, why is it I can't see Tesla's work? Why, what's so important? Now, to be honest, as semi scientist, let's call that I respect the work of Albert Einstein, but his work are conceptual and theoretic, strong and math. Tesla was very much hands on what he's learned about electricity, its application in everything, the movement of electrons far transcends powering lights in your room, which led him into physical movement, transposition, whatever term you want to use. But all that is buried. But he was way, way out there. I mean, in my mind, he was equal to or even stronger than Einstein.

[Pippa Malmgren]

I agree with that. I mean, well, Einstein was never an experimentalist. Tesla was doing real experiments.

[Harold Malmgren]

He was. If I say he was cerebral, you know, it was all mental, conceptual.

[Pippa Malmgren]

To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on our physical progress in reality. And actually, I agree with that.

[Harold Malmgren]

He made physics go that way.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Harold Malmgren]

Whereas Tesla was trying to pull to the. That way.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And the experimentalists make the most progress, and often they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper framework to really understand what they're doing. But they're. I mean, I think in the case of Tesla, Towns, Brown and a bunch of other cases, they're sort of really at the. Operating at the boundaries of human knowledge. And often it's with high energy physics or, you know, particle accelerators, things like that, where we're doing things in the physical world that are kind of breaking. Breaking prior limits. And sometimes it's in microscopy. Microscopy and just getting, you know, to lower levels of granularity. But I think that begets so much more progress than guys, you know, with chalkboards just, like, writing equations.

[Danny Sheehan]

So this comes up against another issue, and you and I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this, which is, did we create a kind of invisible glass or Perspex wall? And many technologies, particularly in the nuclear space, were placed on the other side. And so you could only study them or get involved in them if you had a classified status and you joined a government lab or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were going to be arrested. And people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things. Well, that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch arena. And now because of incredible advancements in computational power, in the kind of devices that gather data, basically you can't lock it away the way you used to. People are able to uncover it. And maybe that is part of. Also what is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it. Now, you can classify the Tesla papers, but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out. And today there's been talk of, for example, Andreessen and Horowitz who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today who have recently been discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager coming up with an artificial intelligence that would have wide ranging consequences. So they started to think we could lock that down.

[Jesse]

You know, one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White.

[Pippa Malmgren]

House on AI policy was, you know.

[Harold Malmgren]

Look, there are going to be.

[Pippa Malmgren]

There are going to be issues that.

[Harold Malmgren]

Come from AI, but like, they should be regulated.

[Pippa Malmgren]

The regulation should happen at the application.

[Harold Malmgren]

Level, not at the technology level. Yeah. And he argued with me when I said that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, yes, so, so, so Ben basically said, look, it doesn't make sense because.

[Harold Malmgren]

To regulate AI at the technology level, you're regulating math. And of course we're not going to do that. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll recall that what they said was, no, actually we can classify math.

[Jesse]

We can classify math.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And literally, this was.

[Harold Malmgren]

This is verbat. This is verbatim. This is. This is. We.

[Jesse]

We did.

[Harold Malmgren]

We.

[Jesse]

We cl. We classified a whole entire areas of.

[Harold Malmgren]

Physics in the nuclear era and made them state secrets of the theoretical physics. Yeah. Science of physics.

[Danny Sheehan]

And they're like, wait, what?

[Jesse]

Like what?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, like physics supposed to be open source.

[Danny Sheehan]

And so you start to wonder, is Eric Weinstein right, that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall?

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

And now the weight of new innovations is crushing that wall.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, that brings, you know, another Explain that tweet series. So we have, Harold, you wrote questions appearing regarding successor to aec. AEC is the Atomic Energy Commission. Department of Energy now oversees all national labs, including nuke research and security.

[Jesse]

National labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats, such as biotech.

[Pippa Malmgren]

All subject to DOE Department of Energy R and D classifications. So are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring in the labs or hallways of mit, Harvard, Stanford, but in fact at these DOE research facilities?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes.

[Pippa Malmgren]

I guess that's just a mic drop moment.

[Harold Malmgren]

Let me give you an example. I became really close friends with Senator Howard Baker. I mean, he would have made a great president. Anyway, I worked with him, talked to him a lot. We became friends. He had me and my wife at that time down at his country house several times. And he said one day I wanted to go up to Oak Ridge and spend some time with them. And I said, oh, I didn't know you were attached with them. I thought you were attached with Tennessee Valley. They said, yeah, but you know, I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby you can imagine that we are intimately interconnected. I would like to spend a few days talking to them about the technologies they're working on that might be made commercialized in some way or other, because they don't have that in their work agenda. They just develop and develop. But he said, I just have a feeling that none of that should be made public. So I did. And they had really interesting stuff going on, areas that you'd never think of. The most impressive one was when they said. Somebody said, we know more about filters than anybody in the world. That's filters. I said, like filters for the water supplies and filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements of our system. And we don't have a purpose for all of this, but they're very important in the developing, refining nuclear weapons. That's why we do it. I said, it's a great value in biotech and in management of the water supply is only one of many things, but it should be. Well, we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing. It's too much work to say, let's deregulate. So we just. We don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington. So we just do what we're doing. It stuck in my mind. And when AT AND T was on the eve of being broken up, AT&T hired me as the final witness before Judge Harold Green and I got into. The United States is not ready for a total breakup because, number one, Bell Labs is where all our really advanced sciences. They said, how do you know that? Because I went to Bell Labs. I spent a week there. I'm telling you, that's where all the brain power is. And I said, the second reason is our industry. We don't have Panasonic and all these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices. We're not ready. So if you're going to do this, should be done in stages. The Department of Justice guy kept getting up. I object to this. Testimony is not part of the case. Judge Green shut them down and said, this is the first man talking about anything relevant and of interest to me as a human being. So just let him talk.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you believe because we're talking about Bell Labs, that's part of this narrative of this guy, Philip J. Corso, who is working in the army on what he claims to be the foreign material exploitation desk. He says that as part of that role, basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry. And mainly it was given to Bell Labs. He says that Kevlar, lasers and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology.

[Harold Malmgren]

Could be.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So you'd say possible, but not. You don't have any evidence for that.

[Harold Malmgren]

No, but it should be.

[Danny Sheehan]

Okay, and let me interject something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of pipa. Look for the technologies where there's no on ramp. I go, what do you mean on ramp? I mean, you can't find the research history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones to pay attention to. They're not saying it's definitely from this particular source.

[Pippa Malmgren]

They come out of nowhere.

[Danny Sheehan]

The ones that come out of nowhere, those have interesting stories.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So fascinating. And Harold, do you believe, because you're interested in Townsend Brown to begin with, presumably this source gave you this information on Townsend Brown collaborating with Tesla, which if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be known more broadly. Do you think that Townsend Brown discovered anti gravity?

[Harold Malmgren]

I don't know. But somebody just posted on the Internet the workbook, Thompson, Drum, and I downloaded the whole thing. It turns out to be 500 pages. I haven't gotten my telephone.

[Danny Sheehan]

He's very excited about it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's amazing.

[Harold Malmgren]

I'm going to go through them.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

Somewhere in there I'm going to find something. So I can't answer your question right now.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

But I think Tesla anyway was on this track of movement of electrons allowed repositioning of just about anything.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What exactly does that mean, Mr.

[Harold Malmgren]

Termination. Trans.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Remote transmutation.

[Harold Malmgren]

Transmutation.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Of elements.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So that's so interesting because when I go deep enough on the Townsend Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say that it gets into that, the transmutation of elements thing, and that that's actually why this stuff was shut down, because they're more dangerous implications around that than the anti gravity stuff.

[Danny Sheehan]

Well, look at today. Again, I'm a bit involved in the world of artificial intelligence. We already are able to create what are called programmable materials where you can specify the behavior of the material and use materials as a data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that that because of Google's new Sycamore supercomputer and their new Willow chip, they're already discovering basically the recipes for creating new materials atom by atom by atom, which is a revolution in human history because in the past you had to start with, you know, a tree to make a table out of wood. Or a boat. Right. But today you can start with, what is the requirement? What are the characteristics that I need? And then build that material atom by atom, by atom. So suddenly, I mean, we have, I think they've said, 380,000 new materials and 2 million new crystals that no one's ever worked with before. And this will only continue now. So these ideas that you can have, materials that do strange things is no longer insane, like we're building them.

[Harold Malmgren]

What this allows you to do is to devise it in here and make it over there also, so you can make it anywhere. Once you have the concept. That's a cookbook.

[Danny Sheehan]

It's a cookbook, yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Okay, so we're. You're. It's the JFK administration. You're this young whiz kid, and you see this kind of rupture in the administration where JFK is going to scout the CIA to the winds. Dulles gets fired. He's kind of licking his wounds back at the Brown Brothers Harriman, which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with. And he is plotting possible revenge against jfk, probably. So what do you think happens from there? Do you think Dulles had anything to do with JFK's assassination?

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, they are saying they are going to release all those papers now.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's right.

[Harold Malmgren]

So we'll see. What does all those papers mean? I mean, like, one version or all the versions.

[Pippa Malmgren]

What do you. Have you ever met a guy named Danny Sheehan, by any chance?

[Harold Malmgren]

Pippa knows him.

[Pippa Malmgren]

So what do you think of. Because you actually, you tweeted. This was the first time I was so, like, I was like, wow, I'm on Harold's radar. This is amazing. You tweeted, you know, Jesse from American Alchemy, just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Sheehan. And so I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Sheehan narrative of what happened.

[Harold Malmgren]

Pippin knows him. Pippin knows him even better now. I'm about to know him. It seems nice.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Do you think? So his narrative is that Nixon, who is head of the 5412 Committee under Eisenhower, along with being his VP, he was working with Howard Hughes to create this, quote, unquote, S force, which was this kind of elite kind of sleeper cell unit, and they were going to take out Che Guevara and Castro, and that ends up not happening. The Bay of Pigs occurs, and, you know, Eisenhower leaves and JFK comes in and they sort of, you know, move into the role get rolled into these other special ops programs, Mongoose and Foxtrot. And then once JFK fires Dulles, Dulles is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Herriman. And he recommissions this S force, which is full of these Cuban exiles who've been militarized originally to take out Che Guevara and Castro, but in fact this time around to take out jfk. Do you think that there's any credence to this story?

[Harold Malmgren]

There are quite a few stories. When I was six years old, my father moved us to. First to Providence, Rhode island, and then to a community of reform further along Narragansett Bay. And suddenly I found myself in a community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian Mafia. In fact, most of Rhode island was.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Harold Malmgren]

And the dominant Mafia figure for Boston was the overseer was Providence. I grew up in this environment where in school, if one kid, one male, got to be a bully, out of nowhere, around near closing time for school, a couple of guys, big guys, would come in him, take him out, beat the shit out of him. And then they told us the next day, he won't bully you anymore. And so I later on began to ask the police, how does it work here? I said, no disorganized. No disorganized crime. No break ins, no bullying, no wife beating. No disorganized crime. Organized crime definitely is protection. And all those stories about Mafia movies, I mean, I grew up in all that. Yeah, this is the way it works. And I met a lot of these people. Not my culture. I wasn't even Catholic. They were all Catholic. But I learned a lot about it. Now, let me tell you, it's very interesting to me. The first time I met the Prime Minister of Italy in 1973, along with Pete Peterson, who'd been sent over by Nixon to do a kind of tour of the world. I sat down. He said, Mr. Malmon, I've been looking forward to meeting you. Pete, you won't understand this. Let me explain. Hal here knows all about the Sicilian way. He grew up in it. He understands it. I know what he knows. So let me explain before you start some lecture on confusion of state and crime in Italy. We had all these communist troublemakers, Red Brigades, all kinds of stuff. The only way the church and the state could fight, we had to use the Mafia because they could do things we couldn't do.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Okay?

[Harold Malmgren]

So, yes, there was a triumvirate that ran Italy for a long time. And it was an alliance of the Pope, the Vatican, the elected government, and the Sicilian market.

[Pippa Malmgren]

We'll let the audience interpret that analogy as an answer to the JFK question.

[Harold Malmgren]

When I met Chris Herter had been governor of Massachusetts before he'd been in Congress and governor of Massachusetts before he became Secretary of State. So I asked him one day, I said, how did you ever do that? I said, you're a straight shooter. Why did you ever take that job as governor of Massachusetts? He said, what do you mean? I said, you can't run the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run Boston without the Mafia. He said, oh, you asked the same question. My wife asked me, why are you press? Are you doing this stupid thing? Why do you want to take it on? He said, I, puzzled, I thought. I thought and decided I haven't. I'm going to establish a principle. And it worked for me. I said, what was the principle? I announced that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside government without members of the press president. And he said, no one from the Mafia could come to talk to me without me inviting the press in. So they had to use indirect. And I could always wave them off, saying, I don't. I'm not going to even say, is that a threat? I'm going to ignore you. He said, I just insulated myself totally.

[Danny Sheehan]

And he was independently wealthy as well, so he couldn't be bought.

[Harold Malmgren]

He said, they can't touch me. I'm really wealthy. So I felt like, you want to spare me smooth money.

[Danny Sheehan]

But I think it's so interesting. How did the Prime Minister of Italy know? And the answer must be that because you grew up in that community, they knew, they knew you, they knew your dad.

[Harold Malmgren]

They never told anybody about it. He knew all about it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Danny Sheehan]

You know, so that's a different network.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Harold Malmgren]

And that same day, he said, I want you to go across the river to the Vatican and meet Archbishop Martinkus, the head of the Vatican bank. Wow. So, Pete, would you two please go over there? I've already arranged. The car's outside. They'll drive you over. You won't get stopped. You're coming for me. See the Archbishop bring you over there. Martink is former archbishop of Chicago. Big guy, tall, in his black robe, cowboy boots, leaning back, smoking a big fat Cuban cigar. He started off the same way. Pete, I've read all about you. Glad to meet you. And Mr. Mr. Howe, I think he said here, he understands everything, but so bear with me. I will explain to you how. We'll explain more if you have questions later. And I looked up and he said, we know about you from your boyhood with a lot of our associates in the Mafia. So then he proceeded talk about the tripartite way of defending themselves against communism. I remember coming out of the pizza. How does he know all that? I said, search me. I don't know. But there was movement between Sicily and people living near where I was. And I met a lot of these people. They never said, boy, when you grow up, you can be one of us. I wasn't one of them. I wasn't Catholic. I wasn't. So anyway, it was interesting.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, it sounds like the Italian government and the Vatican were tied into. They had mob ties in the US and then. And that. That connectivity allowed them to understand who you were to begin with.

[Harold Malmgren]

No question.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That's amazing. Do you think there's, like a deeper layer to politics that people are unaware of that, you know, I mean, even outside of the talks of like a quote, unquote deep state or, you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government, like, is there something even deeper at play that's sort of transnational?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. The answer is yes. So sitting here in this facility, people don't realize if I push a button to call Putin, my call right now, this minute.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You could call Putin right now, this minute?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Really? You have a direct line to him right now?

[Harold Malmgren]

Yes, because, you know, I told you the story of writing long essay about him and then writing a second version of that.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yep. And they were trying to establish a back channel, and Obama shut down the back channel.

[Jesse]

That.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

We'Ve probably never needed this back channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology. And with tensions between the us, Russia and China running high, Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict escalation expert Herman Kahn would be eminently useful.

[Harold Malmgren]

I was identified early as the person whose name they were familiar with, the chess player. And it builds slowly. In 1982 or something, I was with Kissinger and George Shultz and a couple of other people in Moscow as an aide. We were invited to work the ballet, and we came and we were going to be seated in the czar's box. And Kissinger, as usual, marched ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the czar. And one of the KGB people said, henry, not tonight. Not tonight. That seat is for Dr. Malden. And he said, what? There must be some misunderstanding. He said, no, no, we know him. He is the shadow of his uncle. You are not one of the world's great chess players. You may think you are. And he may not be yet, but he comes from that bloodline. And in honor of him, he will sit in that chair tonight. Now, it was intended humiliation of Kissinger. Yeah.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Kissinger must have not been very happy.

[Danny Sheehan]

I think he melted down.

[Harold Malmgren]

I was already at war with Kissinger on other issues. He really got pissed off. Trying not to show it, but it was out of proportion. Preposterous. Anyway, yeah, he didn't forget it. I didn't forget it, but I never rubbed it in. As the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together and Yeltsin became the first president. At that time, 1992, I was invited to a meeting in St. Petersburg, Russia, by the mayor of St. Petersburg. At that time, the deputy mayor was Vladimir Putin and a number of Americans from business and diplomats and top Soviet officials, outgoing, incoming Russian officials, heavily loaded with what they call the Sloviki, the security people who were looking for new careers and so gathering, I don't know, 75, maybe up to 100 people in the hall as a meeting open before, you know, when you have drinks and before you sit down and all that. And somebody comes to grab me, and I recognize him. Primakov. Who was he? He was officially National Academic Council or something. He was an official body supervising research in all fields. And he was in charge of Asia from China to the Middle East. But he had known KGB connections. In fact, many people thought he was a key official. Anyway, I had met him in earlier years, and he grabbed me by the elbow and marched me over. Somebody you need to meet. And he introduced me to Putin. He said, this man is rising. He will soon be very important, Russia. You should know him. Now, I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting. Chimakov looked for me, found me in the crowd, brought me over. It was intentional. Now, Putin was standing there talking to Kissinger. He did know Kissinger. And Peter Krupp says, excuse me, Henry, but Vladimir needs to know someone else. Kissinger looked at me and said, how the hell is Julian into that? Anyway, he drew me away from Kissinger. Kissinger believed he was the only channel, and it was through Primakov. But Dobryan may have done this more than me, but I had a channel directly with the Russians as his choice. But he introduced me to Primakov. When I went to Moscow, Primakov wanted to get to know me. I was treated not as partisan of anything, but as someone who could be trusted to carry an idea, explore it, and get an answer back. That's something different. I was very mindful of not getting crosswise with our intelligence system. Kissinger thought he was the number one communication channel between Russia and America. In the back channel, there's a history of why he and I had conflict. A very elaborate history because of my assignments and his predilection. It all really related to the large role in U.S. trade legislation that had a restriction on opening trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of emigres of Jews from Russia either to the US or to Israel. And for a while I worked for the Senate and Senator Abe Ribicoff was the senior Jewish political leader in the American system. Abe told me, Jake Javits is my partner. He's number two. And the chief executive of Seagram's in New York is the treasurer. It's a structure. We give guidance to AIPAC and other bodies, but this. We represent the Jewish community. And I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants. I said, abraham, not Jewish. He said, I knew that I've been looking for someone like you for a long time. It had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quarrels in the middle. I wanted someone with clean hands. You're the first person I met who's as smart as us Jews. Oh, gosh. So I said, well, I think that's enough. We had a laugh about that. And I did act as the intermediary. In fact, I was sent to Jerusalem and got briefed by Mossad, by Shin Beth, and fully. I may have several days of full flail, you know, explanation of what goes on between Israel and the US in the dark world of intelligence. Startled the CIA. Who the hell was I? But you know, I was operating at the request of the senior political figure in the Jewish community, so nobody was going to mess with me anyway. But the Russians were impressed by being picked out to do this out of all the different people I could. So all of this was in play in the background. So somehow the old subject guard working through Yeltsin said, putin has to meet Harold. We don't understand Harold. He always pops up in the important places.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yeah, you're like Zelig or something.

[Danny Sheehan]

And then you actually dine with him. One on one, you converse with him, talk about at length what you learn from that relationship you can find.

[Harold Malmgren]

I wrote, at the time of the invasion of Ukraine, I wrote my impressions of Vladimir Putin. You should look up there in Unheard. I wrote two essays about Putin.

[Danny Sheehan]

You should feature them on just a Little link to them because they're very important.

[Pippa Malmgren]

There's so much.

[Harold Malmgren]

It's like, as I said, I didn't meet Putin by accident. They arranged for me to meet him. They did not ask me to write, but I did. I wrote what I thought he was up to. What he was reasoning was I didn't criticize him, praise him. All I said was this is his state of mind. He liked the two essays that I wrote.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Really?

[Harold Malmgren]

How do I know? Because he read them. I said, erica, I'm now going to press upon me and called the Prime Minister of Japan and who I said was seconds chief of the National Security Council in Tokyo. Wow.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

So happy to talk with you. Is there something you believe our President should do? And I said yes, I've given him counsel to improve his speech in English and his many leaps and bones. So I would like you to tell him for me to fly to New York, give an address to the General or something. I called Good Morning America and asked for seven or eight minutes interview. I said, suddenly your President will become magically an entirely new figure in the eyes of Americans. Because instead of being some maniacal engineering genius leading robots across America, they'll see him. Young people, young people, journalists, young staff members and Congress, they'll all see his face and they'll hear his words. And sure enough, suddenly he was everybody's friend. When I went from DOD to Lyndon Johnson. I arrived in October 64. I get called over by general counsel. LBJ wants you to go on a very secret mission to Tokyo to me. It's already arranged. I don't know, but okay. Slowly range you will meet the Japanese Prime Minister. He will be accompanied by some Japanese named Miyazawa whose English is perfect. He's an official in the cabinet. Miyazawa recently was Prime Minister. Anyway, so I said okay, what do I do? Said, we'll arrange the tickets. You do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing. You just take some days off. Chris Hurter knows you proved it and he said you're just the right person who knows Chris Hurter because I was in his aide. But no one else knows. Don't tell. Don't tell anyone you're agency. Don't tell. Don't visit the American Embassy. They don't know anything.

[Danny Sheehan]

Don't tell the State Department.

[Harold Malmgren]

Don't tell anyone. You'll find the entry and exit will be handled swiftly. You deliver this message and then get an answer. Write it down personally when you get back. If you want to type it up, it's helpful, but don't address it to the present. Don't say on the envelope, eyes only, it'll be Janet, because then 30 people want to see it. So. And I said, well, how do I get his name? His personal secretary? She will expect it. She will tell them to give her the envelope. If it comes and you deliver it yourself, they'll let you in the door, you hand over the envelope. That's it. No return address. Don't have your name on it, date, anything. Okay. Well, the origin of this was the county people were all over Johnson the minute he became president. Are you going to keep all the commitments of John Kennedy? He said, what can I do? They put pressure on this. I said, of course I will. But he said, some of those commitments involved something I don't agree with, was cracking down on imports of foreign nations of textiles. It's been a delicate subject between Eisenhower administration. We already have this elaborate system, import controls. But I think this is all just to favor a certain group of people. So I want to guide the dialogue with Japan. So I want to say I'm not going to argue with you about this. We're not going to have legislation. But I really would like your cooperation to ask the energy to slow the pace of expansion for at least a year or two so that I don't have to address this. Well, we had some other issues with Japan at the time. So I met Sato, and so he was quite happy and said, yes, of course. Came back, passed it on. No one ever knows I made that trip.

[Danny Sheehan]

This is the beginning of what we now know as voluntary export restraints. And it was a means of keeping the peace between the US And Japan on this super politically sensitive issue for lbj. And the point is that this is often how presidents do things. They don't always use official channels. They have unofficial fact channels.

[Harold Malmgren]

At the time. I asked the general counsel, why can't he use secure lines of communication? He said, yeah, well, Singapore has their system, but a lot of people listen to it.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Right.

[Harold Malmgren]

Signal Corps doesn't deny CIA access. And then since Signal Corps is part of the army, most of the military knows whatever goes, so you can't use that. Yeah.

[Danny Sheehan]

Not to mention the Russians and everybody and anybody else.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. Well, let's bring up that we have all these other. He said, you say something, it's just like if you ever send a message to the President saying, eyes only the President. It's an automatic imitation.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Everybody knows everybody.

[Harold Malmgren]

Before the president sees it, they'll have to see it and write a preparatory comment I'll give you an example I was given when Nixon came in. It was a special commission on the transition. Bunch of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson Nixon, you know, Nixon was coming in, was felt he should see him. And there was a bunch of papers with a letter from George Ball to the President pleading with, let's downsize this whole Vietnam thing before it blows up in your face. Cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk. It was George at it again, trying to get in the way of what we must do. I mean, Dean Rusk totally dismissive of everything now. Interesting. I was told later by his daughter Lindenberg that he really valued George Ball and he read every memo of George Bowell. He thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system, that his brains. George Ball was always opposed to heightening the war. So I mean, I knew the daughter because I dated a girl who was best friends with Linda Bird. So I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards. So I learned lots of stuff. My own intelligence system.

[Danny Sheehan]

I'm telling you.

[Harold Malmgren]

Well, I'm a human male. It was sometimes beneficial, I have to say, over a lifetime more not beneficial anyway. But that kind of process, there was no secure way unless you sense somebody and you can't do it in a way that's visible.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, I love in my research, your name always pops up next to Malmgrim Inc. Which I always found like hilariously nondescript and non threatening and sort of, you know, just extremely generic.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah, well, I never advertised anything specific.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You seem to just keep getting having these interactions with people kind of on the inside. I mean, now we're getting into trippier territory and who knows if this is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental network or a network of serendipity or something where you look at your interactions with Carl Compton, as young as you were, and then Richard Bissell saying, it's almost like I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I find fascinating and particularly on nuclear. Nuclear.

[Danny Sheehan]

I mean, how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used, which I think is a story you should tell a little bit about because it all goes back to the 13 year old requesting these documents somehow ends up. Now, I've been told, but dad won't confirm that he worked on preventing a nuclear crisis on more than one occasion. But you only tell me about one and, and people in the intelligence world are like, oh, your dad is good. What's going on? So I won't make you go there, but you have met with the leader of Russia on nuclear matters after all of this that we now know.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Danny Sheehan]

This, I think, is related to this subject and it's important to discuss. And today, do we have a system for deconflicting the US and Russia if these things show up? And what is happening practically as we speak, we have unidentified objects flying all over the United States.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Yes.

[Danny Sheehan]

Not just in New Jersey, over nuclear facilities, over weapons arsenals, but it's happening globally.

[Pippa Malmgren]

And the speculation on the people deepest on the subject, people like Robert Hastings, who wrote an amazing book called UFOs and Nukes and all of his whistleblowers, almost 170 who work, they have queue clearances at these atomic sites. Their intuition, you could just, you could say a whole host of things. As far as why these UFOs show up. You could say they're offensive, which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much that's offensive. They've done really nothing.

[Danny Sheehan]

Well, we shoot at them, but they don't shoot at us.

[Pippa Malmgren]

They don't shoot at us.

[Jesse]

So. So all of their first intuition as.

[Pippa Malmgren]

To why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because they're.

[Jesse]

Trying to show us that our ways are too brutal and we're going to.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Blow ourselves up and make us think about higher things. And so I don't know if you.

[Harold Malmgren]

Guys think that, but I think that's what it's all about. Plus, if we get too serious with nuclear explosions, we can do lasting damage to them, to the shell of the earth. We're plumbing deeper and deeper into the center. I mean, we don't know what happens if you start.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to occur.

[Harold Malmgren]

Awesome.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Because you have this kind of intersection between the magnetosphere of the Earth, which actually dictates biological morphology on a pretty fundamental way, and UV radiation, which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection, differential selection. And you are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill. And the really interesting crazy part is you have, you have a town in Japan next to the Fukushima Prefecture, called Lino, and it's dedicated to UFOs. And like, over 50 of the residents all believe in UFOs. There's a museum dedicated to UFOs, and there, during the spill, they say the UFOs came down, they helped clean up the spill. This, this. This monk who guards this temple in Japan. And so it's just fascinating. It's like they're the stewards of the earth.

[Harold Malmgren]

They may well be. It begins with the opening fashion, as I said. I felt all the way along these unexpected interrelated events, there was a message of the madness somewhere. And my mother telling me, just keep doing what you're doing.

[Pippa Malmgren]

You have a purpose.

[Harold Malmgren]

You have a purpose. And you may not know it until the end, but I may be approaching the end. Although my doctors say I will outlast my mother. She lived to 100.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow. Yes.

[Harold Malmgren]

Yeah. But my doctor said you have no physiological problems, no troubles with your knees and hips and all that stuff.

[Danny Sheehan]

At 89, to be clear, you're already.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Lasting longer than most of my interview subjects.

[Jesse]

So.

[Harold Malmgren]

Kennedy had appointed Christian, her former governor of Massachusetts. So, you know, I was familiar with New England. The first Friday I came to the office, I said, why am I here? I asked for it. And I said, well, who had a record? He said, the day that you met the President, mit that day, your name went in all the important books of talent.

[Pippa Malmgren]

That who keeps.

[Harold Malmgren]

CIA.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Wow.

[Harold Malmgren]

Not only CIA, but Majestic. All these guardians, they all took themselves to protect the world. So you, you were chosen. And when you were brought here, I asked you to come to me and to work with me. So you are an attraction. And it's not for any of us to understand the world, how the world works. It is.

[Jesse]

Could Harold have been using the moniker Majestic in its counterintelligence context? Absolutely. But he used the word so second hand so casually that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group, in my opinion, a group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events, not just extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have gone by many names. 5412, the 303 Committee, the Committee of 40. And they probably involve subcommittees we'll never know the names of. On our drive to the hospital, with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels, Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop telling stories about his past. There was so much he wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic backchannel with Harold in 2009, but that Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping Shoichiro Toyoda set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky. We even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on Earth to break the four minute mile after Roger Bannister. Apparently Harold could repeatedly break the four minute mile in his twenties. Right as we got to the hospital, we got into trippier territory. Harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid century anti gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown. We discussed Brown's obsession with time travel because gravity is linked with time and general relativity. We talked about how towns in Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines. A very talkative Harold Malmgren went noticeably silent.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Well, Harold, I want you to take care of yourself, man. I know we've been talking for an hour now and I wish I could be with you in person. And I miss you, man. And I want you to just get better, you know? Yeah. I really hope you rest up and you have my number so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with anything. Okay? Good.

[Harold Malmgren]

My Life.

[Jesse]

Under the pseudonym chase Brandon, a CIA agent turned Hollywood liaison, wrote a book in 2012. The book discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients. The object also relays critical information about future timelines. A secret committee is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members. The committee are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated to deal with the issue of non human intelligence. The main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmers who is plucked by the head honchos of the Office of Strategic Services and then this special committee. He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and manage complex timelines. He is also taken in and out of a liminal timeless dominion where he is taught important things by otherworldly beings that go to determine his purpose in life. The common trope in the book is that Chalmers had a purpose. It was a deeply installed, driven purpose. Even if it was subconscious. The first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon. Truth is so hard to tell. It sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible. When Harold called me again prior to his passing, I thought I'd bring up time travel one last time.

[Pippa Malmgren]

Harold, do you think your life is connected with time travel in any way?

[Harold Malmgren]

I've thought about this many, many times. And the answer is yes. Nothing else explains. When I come to that mit, I didn't have the slightest inhibition. I was talking as if I knew something. I don't know why I knew it. I know it. And in fact, what I did say was breaking truth. With no knowledge at that time, so if you ask me, did I have a purpose? Yes. Now, my mother was the most remarkable person. She read books like there's no tomorrow. She read so many books. And she kept saying to me, you have to understand, you cannot decide by yourself. You were given knowledge. There was a purpose. You have to pursue your purpose. It.