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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Randall Carlson: Is The Moon An ALIEN Satellite Monitoring Earth?
03:31:25
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- [00:00]
Randall Carlson
I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong case for the existence of Atlantis. And one of the things I've done is studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean basin. And there is overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the mid Atlantic Ridge. What we're seeing now, those islands are the tops of mountains.
- [00:25]
Jesse Michaels
We're crazy speculative territory here. What's up with the moon? It's really strange.
- [00:30]
Randall Carlson
The moon has sufficient mass that it should have deformed into the state of least energy, which is a sphere. Why hasn't it done that?
- [00:40]
Jesse Michaels
What do you think?
- [00:41]
Randall Carlson
I am willing to consider that the moon has been geoengineered.
- [00:46]
Jesse Michaels
And how would it have been geoengineered?
- [00:48]
Randall Carlson
By a civilization with a technology advanced enough.
- [00:51]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think Atlantis geoengineered?
- [00:53]
Randall Carlson
It looks like the imperial mammoth stood 16ft tall at the shoulder. The Ursus speleas, the bear that stood 6ft tall at the shoulder and 12ft tall when it stood up on its hind legs. There were giants. But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna oversized compared to today, why not people? Different parts of the brain have different activities.
- [01:17]
Jesse Michaels
But you know that, don't you? People that you do a lot.
- [01:23]
Randall Carlson
Maybe you should interview me.
- [01:33]
Jesse Michaels
This week's American Alchemist is the always fascinating and extremely knowledgeable Randall Carlson. Randall and I have been friends since 2018. I annoy him constantly with random phone calls on everything related to esoterica, ancient civilizations and geology. This interview spans two conversations, one in 2022 and one in 2024. In private, Randall and I have had some pretty trippy conversations about the ancient site of Atlantis, a cataclysm that might have disrupted life there and then where those survivors went. Randall has speculated with me, given certain anomalies with the moon, that maybe some of these survivors have camped out on the moon. I think about that with respect to the UFO topic, where there's constant lore around underwater bases and there are a lot of real anomalies with our moon. And so I decided to grill Randall Carlson on this thread. So my disclaimer here is that this conversation is going to be stepwise more speculative than any conversation you've heard Randall have. And I have no idea if there's veracity to any of this, but it's extremely fun to speculate and it's also important, it drives science. I also think if you look at a lot of Randall's earlier work around the younger Dryas impact hypothesis, it would have been Considered extremely speculative in the 90s. But now we have an abundance of evidence that he's probably just right. So in the name of possibly pushing things forward, I decided to get crazy with him. And let's see if any of it holds up. I now present to you the gray bearded wizard of Georgia, Graham Hancock's work husband and my good friend, this week's American Alchemist, Randall Carlson. Randall, thank you for having me, man.
- [03:15]
Randall Carlson
Oh, thanks for having me.
- [03:18]
Jesse Michaels
You made a little feature on the show with Graham. I don't know if you saw that. You called in and so it's good to actually be here in the flesh with you.
- [03:26]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, here we are. Well, we've talked about this for a year or two or three.
- [03:31]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:32]
Randall Carlson
Since we met, which was. It's got to be at least a couple years now.
- [03:36]
Jesse Michaels
I want to say it was three years ago.
- [03:38]
Randall Carlson
I think it's pushing three years.
- [03:40]
Jesse Michaels
I tried to get you to move to LA and become my mentor.
- [03:44]
Randall Carlson
I was sorely tempted. But yeah, when push came to shove, I couldn't pull it off.
- [03:52]
Jesse Michaels
You got busy. You did. I remember at the time you were like, you know what I've been thinking? I need somebody to transmit my teachings to. And I've always remembered that because I've called you randomly from time to time. You probably know me as a guy to call you sporadically.
- [04:12]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, right, right. Sometimes my phone ring. I'll. Oh God, it's Jesse Michaels again. Hey, Jesse. No, I'm always happy to get a call from you, Jesse.
- [04:24]
Jesse Michaels
Thanks, man. So far I love our. I love our conversations. We talk about some trippy out there stuff. Speaking of which, I've been on a weird kind of rabbit hole and I've been thinking about the moon and I think the moon doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
- [04:42]
Randall Carlson
I would agree. Okay, I would totally agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense.
- [04:47]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. What's up with the moon? It is way less dense than the Earth. The material predates the Earth and yet it's supposed to have come from the Earth itself from some sort of asteroid impact. So that doesn't make sense. There were reverberations when the lunar lander hit it Both in Apollo 12 and in Apollo 13.
- [05:08]
Randall Carlson
You had ringing and when meteoroids strike it, same thing. While those Apollo in place seismometers were on the moon. I think for three or four years NASA was able to gather data. And yes, it shows that the moon has a long vibrational train after like 10 times or more that of say.
- [05:29]
Jesse Michaels
The Earth, you have uranium 236 and chromium and titanium.
- [05:36]
Randall Carlson
Titanium.
- [05:36]
Jesse Michaels
On the Moon, these are sort of.
- [05:38]
Randall Carlson
Either rare high refractory metals.
- [05:40]
Jesse Michaels
It's very strange. And then it feels almost like this perfect ball and it orbits in this perfect way where you never see the dark side of the Moon.
- [05:49]
Randall Carlson
If you ask people, and I do this just for. I'll say to people, does the Moon rotate on its axis? And most people go, and they can't conceptualize in any way that allows them to even answer the question, does it? Well, yes. Okay, it does. Or no? Well, let's see. Because most people now, unlike our ancestors of long ago, don't pay much attention to the Moon. Our ancestors all over the ancient world paid obsessive attention to the Moon. They built huge structures and monuments dedicated to observing the motions of the Moon. And they did this all over the world. Why? Why were they so interested in the Moon? Why were they so intrigued with the Moon that they would create these large astronomy observatories that would allow them to track, for example, the 18.6 year lunar cycle between maximum rising and setting, minimum rising and setting, which takes a full. It takes 18.6 years to go through the full cycle and to put it into a very. What I would think of as kind of a comprehensible motion is you've got a minimum rising, a minimum setting, a maximum rising, a maximum setting, and it goes like this. Does that make sense, what I'm doing? It goes maximum, like maximum rise, minimum set, maximum set, minimum rise. And it oscillates like that, back and forth. It takes 18.6 years, give or take a few days to complete that full cycle. There's a place that we'll go to at some point in Colorado called Chimney Rock. We can pull up a slide of it a little bit later if you'd like. It's two natural pillars. Huge pillars are 1,000ft above the valley floor, and they're connected by a ridge. And you can go up that ridge and where the ridge sort of flattens out before you get to these two huge pinnacles of rock. There's the remnants of an ancient structure there, an ancient kiva that would have been built by the Chacoan people. And this was one of the Chacoan outliers, part of the whole Chacoan civilization that was pretty much covered the 10,000 square miles of the San Juan Basin in New Mexico, whose hub was Chaco Canyon. And there was a whole series of outliers that were places of observation, high pinnacle points that would have been probably used as a communication system. We can pull some of this up and I can show you some of these slides. You'll kind of see how it works. But at Chimney Rock, the remains of a kiva are there. And if you position yourself at the right location within that kiva, which is circular, you peer through those two pinnacle rocks and it marks that position where you will see, every 18.6 years, you will see the moon rising in between those two rocks. And that's coming up later this year. So I'm thinking a little trip out there. And the park, it's a national monument. I believe the park Service that governs it is going to open it up so people can actually hike up the ridge and get in that position and see the event.
- [09:36]
Jesse Michaels
Let's go.
- [09:37]
Randall Carlson
I think it's.
- [09:38]
Jesse Michaels
Let's go, I think. But I won't let you go. Randall, what's up with the moon? It's really strange. Also, the more dense material on the moon is above the less dense material, which is the opposite of the earth. And it's similar to like a digging or excavation site. Well, here's so like, actually, the thing that got me onto this is there's a remote viewer named Ingo Swan.
- [10:03]
Randall Carlson
Yes, I've heard of him.
- [10:05]
Jesse Michaels
And he wrote a book called Penetration. And he was part of the CIA psychic spy program called Stargate. And the latter half of the book, Penetration, is dedicated to his thoughts on the Moon.
- [10:16]
Randall Carlson
Okay.
- [10:17]
Jesse Michaels
And he thought that the moon was a hollow spaceship. And there are other legends that involve the moon being a hollow artificial satellite or spaceship around the Earth. And there's actually a Zulu legend that the moon brought us out of the younger Dryas and it made the climate stable on Earth. So what's it.
- [10:39]
Randall Carlson
Well, the moon absolutely does help to stabilize the climate. That's a well known fact. I have a whole book up there on that.
- [10:46]
Jesse Michaels
And you've seen evidence of various gaseous activity on the moon that's sort of unexplained.
- [10:53]
Randall Carlson
Oh, yeah. The lunar transient phenomena is, well, hundreds of examples of the Moon outgassing carbon dioxide, outgassing water vapor, things like that. So anomalous lights, things. It really looks like there's some kind of activity on the moon right now. I don't know the explanation for it. I don't know why carbon dioxide is being outgassed from the moon, but carbon dioxide seems to suggest. Well, carbon dioxide you associate with plants, with vegetation, water vapor coming out of the moon.
- [11:29]
Jesse Michaels
The moon's super weird. So Apollo 10, right? It took off from the moon and it rang like a bell. And NASA became very confused. Then in Apollo 11, they put seismometers in the moon to measure this effect. They intentionally crashed the booster, the first stage of the lunar module in Apollo 11, back onto the moon. And it rings like a bell for three hours.
- [11:51]
Randall Carlson
Three hours.
- [11:51]
Jesse Michaels
So they're like, what the hell's going on here? And it turns out that if you excavate, you know, if you dig on the moon, lower sediment layers on the moon actually are newer than higher sediment layers. So it's the exact inverse. And it actually pattern matches to an excavation site. So you think that there might be a little camp out from this past.
- [12:14]
Randall Carlson
Civilization, but in the spirit of the outrageous hypothesis, let's consider it.
- [12:20]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, I like that. And so why haven't we gone back, you know, 1969 to 1972, we went on all these cool missions. You had the NASA Saturn program, the Apollo programs, and we don't seem to be able to go back. You even have NASA admins saying we lost the technology. Like that's, that's not even like a controversial, conspiratorial thing to say. The more conspiratorial thing would be that was a hoax or whatever.
- [12:45]
Randall Carlson
You know, one the more prosaic explanation is that Nixon decided to pull the plug on the Apollo program because the Vietnam war was costing us so much money and we were going into debt that he didn't feel like we had enough, you know, money to continue the program. So they decommissioned the whole Saturn rocket fleet, which was really dumb and stupid, but that's what they did. And so, you know, you could make the argument, well, the Vietnam War won out over the Apollo program. There was probably more to it than that, but I don't know what that would be unless something was found that, you know.
- [13:26]
Jesse Michaels
However, what might have been found, I don't know. And there are civilizations pre moon that talk about. They talk about, you know, the moon not existing. And then there's, you know, Sumerians talk about the pre moon civilizations. And so what's up that.
- [13:42]
Randall Carlson
I don't think that means what people think it means, because here's why. I think that it means something very interesting. But obviously, if you had the moon arriving into Earth orbit during the time that humans would be here, the arrival of the moon into Earth's orbit would be an extraordinary event, and it would be profoundly catastrophic.
- [14:04]
Jesse Michaels
So how do you think the moon formed?
- [14:06]
Randall Carlson
Well, that's part of the mystery.
- [14:10]
Jesse Michaels
Come on, Randall.
- [14:11]
Randall Carlson
Well, see, I don't necessarily have all the answers on that.
- [14:14]
Jesse Michaels
But I will say we got something.
- [14:16]
Randall Carlson
As far as the Moon, the structure of the Moon, you're right that the moon is much less dense. It's slightly more than half as dense as the Earth. So the interesting thing about the Moon is if you get enough mass together, the gravitational attraction will overcome the resistance to deformation of the material. What that means is that if you have a small object, like say for example, an astronomical object like Phobos or Demos, the moons of Mars, they're not spherical. There's not enough mass there to overcome the rigidity of the material.
- [15:04]
Jesse Michaels
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- [16:50]
Randall Carlson
There's not enough mass there that the gravity is attraction. The internal gravity can overcome the resistance of the material and cause it to deform somewhere between, say, the moons of Mars and the moons of the Earth, you will get enough mass. Where it does overtake, the gravity will overwhelm the rigidity of the material. It will deform into the shape which requires the least energy to maintain, which is a sphere. The mass of the Moon is sufficient to do that, yet it hasn't done that. How do we know that? Well, there's a number of ways we know that. The most prominent way we know that is the fact that there is two moments of inertia in the Moon. Let's see. Grab like one of those wooden compasses off the top right there, I think. Yeah, one of those. Let's see. Will that work? Is there another? Let's see. There should be. Is there anything else up there? Tubular. That'll work. That'll work. Okay, so I'm gonna hold this pan as if it's locked into a single moment of inertia that coincides with its center of mass. Okay, now what I want you to do is try to grab each end of the pen and try to rotate it. No, rotate it in the horizontal plane. See, you're going to easily overcome my resistance. I'm going to resist, and you see, I can't. Okay, now rotate it in the same plane. One moment of inertia. Two moments of inertia. Okay, what you are. Okay, so here is a spherically radially symmetrical object. Let's imagine it is a sphere, and this is an axis, and you are Earth's gravity field. So again, rotate it. Very little resistance. Right. But now you're Earth's gravity field, and there's two moments of inertia. So what's happened there is the Moon is locked into Earth's gravity field in a one to one coupling between the spin of the Moon on its axis and its revolution about the Earth. One to one spin orbit coupling. The Moon has sufficient mass and low density that it should have deformed into the state of least energy, which is a sphere.
- [19:36]
Jesse Michaels
Why hasn't it done that?
- [19:37]
Randall Carlson
Randall, why hasn't it done that?
- [19:39]
Jesse Michaels
What do you think?
- [19:40]
Randall Carlson
Because there's obviously two moments of inertia.
- [19:44]
Jesse Michaels
So why. And how do you explain the two moments of inertia if it's a natural object?
- [19:49]
Randall Carlson
Well, we have to come up with a. I mean, I'm not saying it's not a natural object. What I'm saying, though, is that the laws of physics as we know it don't seem to be applying here. And if there's a natural explanation, I don't know what it is.
- [20:03]
Jesse Michaels
Do you have Any unnatural theories?
- [20:05]
Randall Carlson
Not really. I'm not ready to go into some of the, you know, that the moon is an artificial object.
- [20:12]
Jesse Michaels
Okay.
- [20:13]
Randall Carlson
I am willing to consider that the moon has been geoengineered.
- [20:19]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, and how would it have been geoengineered?
- [20:23]
Randall Carlson
Well, by a civilization with the technology advanced enough that they would be able to.
- [20:28]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think Atlantis geoengineered it?
- [20:30]
Randall Carlson
Well, now you're very speculative, but now we get into the question of could there have been a civilization in the remote past that had technologies that we currently don't know about? And I think the answer is yes. That is a plausible hypothesis. That is not warranted by just summarily dismissing.
- [20:55]
Jesse Michaels
How would they have geoengineered the moon?
- [21:00]
Randall Carlson
Well, if you look at the schemes for building lunar bases. Have you ever looked at any of NASA's ideas for building lunar bases?
- [21:09]
Jesse Michaels
No.
- [21:11]
Randall Carlson
I should pull up something here. If I got it handy. I will pull it up. Basically the main problem with building a colony on the moon or a, any kind of a facility on the moon is cosmic radiation.
- [21:30]
Jesse Michaels
Right.
- [21:31]
Randall Carlson
So how do you solve the problem of cosmic radiation to which you are going to be subject on the surface of the moon?
- [21:38]
Jesse Michaels
You need some protective shielding, maybe a magnetic protective shield.
- [21:42]
Randall Carlson
You could. Which means you're thinking immediately something like one of the schemes is. And if I can find it here, I'll pull it up. One of the schemes is a dome like structure.
- [21:51]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, something like that.
- [21:52]
Randall Carlson
That, yes, you could do that. Or what would be another possibility? Go underground.
- [22:04]
Jesse Michaels
Oh, under. So there you go. So it could be this hollow structure. Interesting.
- [22:09]
Randall Carlson
Hollow is an oversimplification.
- [22:11]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, so there may be hollow parts of it.
- [22:15]
Randall Carlson
Now I think you're getting on to the.
- [22:18]
Jesse Michaels
Well, there's some people who are high up at NASA who have said there are hollow parts of the moon and that's the only explanation for it.
- [22:26]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this has actually been known since the Apollo days has been speculated. It was Gordon MacDonald, I think was his name.
- [22:33]
Jesse Michaels
That's right, Gordon MacDonald. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:35]
Randall Carlson
He was the one who first said that it's more like a hollow sphere.
- [22:39]
Jesse Michaels
That's right. And there's a famous space advisor, I think he was NASA affiliated to eisenhower, named Gordon McDonald, who said the only.
- [22:47]
Randall Carlson
Way that I've read his work, the.
- [22:49]
Jesse Michaels
Only way that the moon makes any sense is if it's hollow.
- [22:51]
Randall Carlson
But that's an oversimplified model. Like a simple. Like if you picture a basketball that has an outer shell but completely empty.
- [23:02]
Jesse Michaels
It has maybe compartments or something. Do you think they're Atlantean survivors within the moon.
- [23:11]
Randall Carlson
He says with a grin, a sly grin.
- [23:15]
Jesse Michaels
You already said yes on my show and 800,000 people watched that.
- [23:20]
Randall Carlson
Did I say that?
- [23:21]
Jesse Michaels
You said, well, you go, there's a loaded question, Jesse. And then you go, well, yes. Do you believe that there are survivors of ancient Atlantis that are among us, perhaps with underwater bases or bases on the moon and advanced technology?
- [23:39]
Randall Carlson
Now there's the loaded question, Jesse. I will just say very provisional. Yes. Well, let's put it this way. If there were ancient cultures, whether it was Atlantis or not, that's a whole like a separate question. I think that questioning the existence of Atlantis is definitely valid. If we go through and we take line by line, our primary source for information on Atlantis, which is Plato's two dialogues, and we actually break it down line by line, we look at the multiple translations, we look at even going back to the original gree to determine some of the possible alternative translations of some of the words.
- [24:29]
Jesse Michaels
So I think we can do that. But that's a conversation you've had with other people. And I feel like you have sort of evidence that is, you know, in the form of these sort of archaeological ruins that will always be hotly contested and are sort of hard to prove that that was Atlantis because the actual survivors had been washed away. And then you have all these crazy UFO reports. And if there are any survivors that are on the moon or in underwater bases or anything like that, I almost feel like, especially given the current zeitgeist, that might be a more productive inroad into the Atlantis conversation.
- [25:07]
Randall Carlson
You know, I like to think outrageously sometimes in the. In the spirit of outrageous hypotheses. You know, William R. Davis, who was the founding father of the science of geomorphology back in the 20s, I believe it was, excoriated his colleagues for being overly conservative in their thinking and not willing to consider new ideas. And he wrote a very famous paper called. Which you might want to read. I bet you you could find it as a PDF form on Google. It's called the value of outrageous hypotheses.
- [25:44]
Jesse Michaels
Love that.
- [25:45]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. So in the spirit of outrageous hypotheses, why don't we conjecture that given the at least 150 to 200,000 years that we modern humans have been on this earth, that consistent with a lot of the myths, flight was not discovered back in the, you know, by the Wright brothers, but was rediscovered by, you know, here's the perspective that I kind of consider. If we look at the dominance of just feudalism of subsistence farming. You know, that was up until the 1700s and the scientific enlightenment, followed by the Industrial revolution. That was pretty much 99% of the Earth's population. When my grandparents were born in the 1890s, the primary mode of transportation, aside from rail, was foot, horse, mule, you know, ships, of course, but obviously nobody had. Well, the first automobiles, I guess, were just showing up in the mid-1890s. But then when I was born with no computers, we had no presence in space. If you look at how far and fast we've come scientifically in the last 200 years. And then if you were to think that, well, what if a cataclysm wiped out our modern civilization and we had archeologists coming and digging up looking for prehistory 10,000 years prior, well, would they find any evidence that we were even here? And the answer is, well, it depends on the severity and the intensity and magnitude of these events. Now, if we start talking about the Younger Dryas, I think we can safely state that the Younger Dryas was a global catastrophe, and it involved multiple factors, all of which would have done their part very effectively to erase any kind of civilization that might have existed, at least anything that might have looked like ours. Let's put it this way. If the Younger Dryas events were to be repeated now, well, 10,000 years from now, archaeologists would have a hard time finding any evidence that we were ever even here. So what I'm getting at is that I think that you can interpret the evidence that there is a strong case for the existence of Atlantis. Now, if we look at what happened with ancient Apocalypse, Graham Hancock's show, it got attacked on multiple fronts. It's all the establishment coming out. And of course, if you dissect their attacks on the show, there's no substance to them. It's just name calling. It's every logical fallacy in the book. Right. But if you go back to the original accounts, there's nothing there that's really so implausible that it couldn't have existed in some form or another.
- [29:03]
Jesse Michaels
Well, the objections people have are it was told that sort of a mythos festival, right, in the Timaeus and Critaeus account. And so, you know, there was a question of, like, how true the actual telling was. And then the other sort of argument is they were supposed to have fought a war, I think, against Athens, and Athens wasn't around, you know, sort of 2,000 years prior.
- [29:24]
Randall Carlson
You've got a whole bunch of assumptions.
- [29:25]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Randall Carlson
If you go back. If you go back to, you know, the late Ice Age times. You know, you go back to the times that Plato is talking about and his date is very interesting. You know, 9,000 years before Solon's exile to Egypt. Right, which occurred in 600 BC.
- [29:47]
Jesse Michaels
So the 9600 BC which is the end of the Younger Dryas.
- [29:51]
Randall Carlson
Right? Precisely. The end of the Younger Dryas and Meltwater Pulse 1B.
- [29:56]
Jesse Michaels
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- [31:37]
Randall Carlson
Now to me that is quite an amazing coincidence that you have a very rapid pulse of sea level rise. At the same time, Plato is saying that there were islands in the Atlantic that sank due to seismic events. And one of the things I've done is gone in and studied the marine geology and oceanography of the Atlantic Ocean basin and it's right there. There is overwhelming evidence of major subsidence on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, particularly concentrated along the mid Atlantic Ridge.
- [32:10]
Jesse Michaels
You don't happen to have any slides around this, do you, Randall?
- [32:14]
Randall Carlson
Well, I do, really. I actually do, yeah.
- [32:18]
Jesse Michaels
Should we get into it?
- [32:19]
Randall Carlson
I'd love to.
- [32:20]
Jesse Michaels
You know, while you're pulling that up, Randall, do you think that there's any sort of sacred geometry about the human body that allows it to tap in? What is that?
- [32:32]
Randall Carlson
Well, it's primarily the golden section, also known as the divine proportion, where. Also known as the extreme and mean ratio, which is basically. Well, this right here actually is a compass that demonstrates that ratio where the ratio of the small segment to the large segment is exactly the same as the ratio of the large segment to the whole.
- [32:59]
Jesse Michaels
You know what else displays that? The Moon.
- [33:03]
Randall Carlson
How so?
- [33:05]
Jesse Michaels
I believe that the moon is 1/400th the size of the sun or something. You tell me, what is it? It's the distance between the.
- [33:18]
Randall Carlson
You have a proportional relationship between diameters and distance.
- [33:22]
Jesse Michaels
Yes.
- [33:22]
Randall Carlson
The sun is 400 times larger than the Moon and 400 times farther away.
- [33:28]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, so what's up with that?
- [33:30]
Randall Carlson
There we go.
- [33:31]
Jesse Michaels
That's great.
- [33:32]
Randall Carlson
I mean, what is up with that?
- [33:34]
Jesse Michaels
I don't know.
- [33:34]
Randall Carlson
I've been thinking about that for decades.
- [33:36]
Jesse Michaels
That's what you're here to tell me.
- [33:37]
Randall Carlson
Michael, what is up. Up with that?
- [33:39]
Jesse Michaels
That's weird.
- [33:40]
Randall Carlson
How is it that. Well, see, what's up. See, here we get into the fact that that's just one interesting item in a whole array of weird coincidences about this reality that we inhabit. When we look at the whole solar system, the whole solar system looks curiously like a work of architecture. Like when you begin looking at the ratios of planetary sizes, masses, distances, there's some really interesting things going on, which, if you change the parameters even a little bit, for example, the masses and distance spacing of the four larger outer planets are precisely what they need to be to transfer comets from the inner zone of the Kuiper disk into the inner solar system. If you were to change the spacing or the masses, this whole phenomena of capturing comets out of the Kuiper disk, transferring them into the inner solar system, would cease.
- [34:50]
Jesse Michaels
Why would a, you know, comet airburst from the torrid meteor stream correlate?
- [34:55]
Randall Carlson
Well, it wouldn't. It would. Not on the Earth. But if you have a major influx of a cometary mass into the inner solar system. And so here, going back to the torrid meteor stream, here is right now the idea that's coming from the new catastrophists that actually go back to 1980 in the British Isles. Victor Klub, William Napier, William Asher, several others also Some Australian astronomy astronomers that theorized that about 25 to 30,000 years ago, a gigantic comet, maybe 50 to 60 mile diameter, nucleus or even bigger, came. It was captured into a sub jovian orbit, meaning that it's traveling around in the inner solar system between the sun and Jupiter. That this huge comet began to undergo a system of hierarchical system of breakups, forming ever smaller cometary nuclei, pieces that then went under again, another process of breaking up, which ultimately led to the Taurid meteor stream. Now, in the early days of a cometary destruction like that, this was the comet Encke. Comet Encke. Now that's good. That's good. Not Comet Encke wouldn't have been the progenitor comet. It would have been one of the secondary or tertiary colonies from the breakup of the original.
- [36:22]
Jesse Michaels
Got it.
- [36:22]
Randall Carlson
Does that make sense? Yes. So in early times going back 10, 12, 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, this debris has not cleared out. It's very dense within the stream of the toroid meteor stream. The Earth crosses that stream twice each year. Crosses. So picture this Jupiter, the Sun. The stream comes around the sun, it makes its perihelion passage around the sun, goes out, it loops back in just inside Jupiter like this. And so it's streaming around like this and it lays close to the plane of the ecliptic. And Earth passes through that stream twice each year in its orbit. When that stuff is coming from its perihelion passage behind the sun, that's the summertime torrids, which occur in late June and early July. Now the Earth is moving and then it comes to the fall time Torrids that are coming in towards the sun, but coming from apparently space. Now all meteor streams are named after the constellation, constellation that you would look at to see which direction you're emanating from. The Taurids obviously are named after the constellation Taurus. And specifically they're almost. The radiant point is almost targeted right on the Pleiades, which is the shoulder of the bull in the classical depictions. So in the fall time. Oh shit, I forgot to mention that today we are right now, today, tomorrow and the next day in the peak of the Taured meteor.
- [38:10]
Jesse Michaels
Street. That's kind of scary.
- [38:12]
Randall Carlson
Well, at this point most of the stuff has been. It's very diffused. It's not however.
- [38:19]
Jesse Michaels
But you were answering the question as to why the sun would be involved.
- [38:23]
Randall Carlson
Here's what I'm getting at. Okay. What we now have is evidence that the infall of meteorites into the sun.
- [38:32]
Jesse Michaels
Can trigger solar outbursts, coronal Mass ejections, because it's intaking mass. Yes. Well, that's amazing. Okay, so interesting. So that's sort of this hybrid. It's almost like this torrid meteor stream sets off a chain of other calamities. Because you're talking about seismic activity, volcanic activity, sun activity.
- [38:49]
Randall Carlson
Yes, I think that's the, that's the way you have to look at it. We're looking at a coherent system. What I think is we're getting to the point where we can now understand kind of almost a unified process where the motion of the planets, the sun, the ingress of cosmic material coming from the Kuiper disk or the Oort cloud can have profound effects on the planets and the sun.
- [39:15]
Jesse Michaels
So all of your ideas around, you know, cyclical cataclysms when it comes to the torrid meteor stream wouldn't be made possible without that sort of architecture to the solar system.
- [39:27]
Randall Carlson
And see, so what happens is it's the conjunctions of the large outer planets that can perturb the comets in the inner zone of the Kuiper disk, which are in very quasi stable orbits. Which means that if you have. Imagine that you got a flat surface and you put a sphere on it. Well, if you have an impulse in any direction, it can move, right? Now suppose you have a dimple in a flat plane and you put your sphere in there. Well, now it's going to take a whole lot more force to move that because you've got to overcome the fact that it's sitting in this depression, a basin. Suppose on the other hand, it's sitting on top of a hill and it's sitting there. As long as nothing disturbs it, it sits there precariously perched, but a little bit of force pushed on it, it begins rolling down. Right. Quasi stable. So comets on the inner portion of the Kuiper disk are quasi stable. So what that means is that the consequence of that is the conjunctions of the large outer planets when they conjunct like, let's say you have Uranus and then you have Neptune. So when they're on opposite sides of the orbit, whatever influence they have just is minimal or it cancels each other out. Okay, but now Uranus is on a faster orbit than Neptune. So it's coming along like this. And as it's catching up, the gravity fields of the two objects will combine. Now, let's say you've got comets. Picture this big disk. It's rotating slowly about the sun. It's way out there, you know, outside the orbit of Neptune. It's Rotating, right. They're not just sitting there, the whole disk is rotating. So now you have Uranus and Neptune. They combine their gravity fields. So the gravity is pulling and you've got a comet out here. So that combined gravity pulling on that, what's it going to do? It's going to be like putting on the brake. Now on the other hand, let's say that a comet is behind it as you're getting this conjunction. So now these combined masses of Uranus and Neptune are in front of the comet. They're all moving in the same direction. Now the gravity field is pulling, it's going to accelerate. So now how does the comet then respond to a deceleration or an acceleration? An acceleration will move it to a higher orbital level. It'll speed up and it'll move out, it'll move away from the sun. If it's decelerated, it will move in. Does that make sense?
- [42:08]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, it does.
- [42:09]
Randall Carlson
As it slows down, it sort of falls in closer to the sun. When it does that, it now comes within the zone of the planets. Saturn, Uranus. So now you've got comets within the orbit of Neptune. Think Saturn, Uranus, same thing. If they break, if they slow down the orbits, it'll transfer in, it'll come inside the orbit of Saturn. Now the big daddy granddaddy of planetary masses is Jupiter. Then it'll be Jupiter in most cases. Determinant picture Jupiter with the thunderstone.
- [42:49]
Jesse Michaels
So Jupiter's sort of a. Jupiter will.
- [42:51]
Randall Carlson
Grab that comet in either thunder, throw it back out towards the outer outside the planetary orbits or he'll throw it down towards the Sun. Now that comet gets caught in that game of cosmic ping pong where it's back and forth between the jovian orbit and the Sun. So it's doing this. And now what happens is with that transfer of the comet into the zone.
- [43:18]
Jesse Michaels
Of the planets, what determines whether Jupiter throws it towards the Sun?
- [43:22]
Randall Carlson
Same principle. Same principle. Here's Jupiter, it's going around the sun.
- [43:26]
Jesse Michaels
Here'S the planet, so it's accelerating, right?
- [43:28]
Randall Carlson
Here comes the comet, it's rotating this way and here comes Jupiter. So as it's coming up like this, gravity is pulling on it, slowing it down and it falls in towards the sun. That's what does it. So it's the huge mass of Jupiter's gravity.
- [43:44]
Jesse Michaels
Aren't we about to hit a particularly heavy time for the taured meteor stream? Isn't the Earth about that?
- [43:50]
Randall Carlson
Well, twice each year the Earth crosses the taured meteor stream.
- [43:53]
Jesse Michaels
That's what, September the end of October.
- [43:57]
Randall Carlson
The fall Taurid is sometimes referred to as Halloween meteors. And I gave a whole, I've got a whole presentation I did last Halloween or a day or two before Halloween where I talk about the connection between the ancient origins of our Halloween celebration in the torrid meteor shower.
- [44:18]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting. What are the. What. How do those connect at all?
- [44:22]
Randall Carlson
Well, because for one who. Because for one of the things. See, like the earth crosses the torrid meteor stream twice each year. And actually after the break, I'll pull up a graphic and I'll show you.
- [44:35]
Jesse Michaels
The graphic and what, two months. So it's, it's September.
- [44:38]
Randall Carlson
No, late October, Early November. Early November takes about a week for earth to cross.
- [44:44]
Jesse Michaels
It's a southern and the northern torrid. So the distinction. Yes.
- [44:47]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. Then in late June, early July. You can picture. Let's push your cup over here. Or the coaster. We can use the coaster. There we go. That'll be the sun.
- [45:01]
Jesse Michaels
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- [46:18]
Randall Carlson
Okay, and this is the earth. Now the earth is going around the sun, right?
- [46:24]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [46:25]
Randall Carlson
Okay, so here's what happened here. Picture that the torrids are coming in. Jupiter's out there somewhere up there where the screen Is the torrid meteor stream is coming in like this. It makes a perihelion passage around the sun, which is its closest passage to the sun. Then it's coming out. Now bear in mind that as these meteors are coming in, as they're getting closer and drawn into the sun Sun's massive gravity field, they're accelerating, right? So they come flying in, going faster and faster. They make that round, make the perihelion passage, then they come out and immediately now they're moving against the Sun's gravity. So the sun is now slowing them down. So now picture it slowing down and slowing down and then eventually it gets far enough out that Jupiter's gravity field has a stronger attraction on it than the Sun's. Jupiter will begin accelerating it and then it'll come out, it'll round Jupiter, or sometimes it won't go out as far as Jupiter, it'll fall back. But in any case, you can picture it's making this orbit like this. The torrid meteor stream lays very close to the plane of the ecliptic, which is Earth's orbital plane. Now if most comets that come in from the Kuiper disk are going to be ecliptic plane comets, because the Kuiper disk picture, it's like a disk and it's in that same roughly 15, 16 degree band that the planet, that the zodiacal belt is and which the planets move. Right? Now the Oort cloud, which is outside of there, is a sphere. If a comet comes in from your cloud, it can come in at any angle. Usually what that means is that it comes in and the geometry of its orbit will be described by a parabola, which is an open ended conic section, whereas a Jovian orbit is a closed ellipse. So if you can observe a comet and make enough observations over a long enough period of time, you can determine whether its orbital geometry is elliptical or parabolic. If it's parabolic, it's open. So what that means it's coming in, circling the sun, going out, never to return. If it's elliptical, you know it's going to be periodic torrid meteor stream.
- [48:55]
Jesse Michaels
So that accounts for June, the June Torrids, the June Torrids are elliptical.
- [49:00]
Randall Carlson
The whole stream is elliptical, okay, the whole stream. Just picture a stream of material and it's elliptical. The stream itself is elliptical, okay? So now Earth's orbit intersects that in two places. It intersects the torrid stream in late June, early July, and then again in late October, early November. Now here's the thing. You have to grasp the summertime Taurids, when the Earth is crossing the stream, that stream is coming from around. It's just made its perihelion passage around the sun. So if you were to look in the sky towards the radiant point from which those meteors are emanating, you're looking right up towards the sun. So what is that going to do to your visibility of the meteors? They're going to be hard to detect, hard to see. On the other hand, when you go to late October, the stream is coming in from this way. So when you're looking upstream, you're looking.
- [49:57]
Jesse Michaels
Away from the sun, you'll see light showers.
- [49:59]
Randall Carlson
And so now you'll see the meteors. Right. And you'll be able to see the radiant point. And the radiant point is that point in space from which the meteors appear to be emerging. Right.
- [50:12]
Jesse Michaels
And you have, you know, one example would be Comet Shoemaker Levy 9, which was, you know, a half mile wide in diameter. And that caused basically when it impacted Jupiter, it was 600 times all of the nuclear TNT.
- [50:31]
Randall Carlson
The interesting thing about Shoemaker Levy 9 was that it was a single comet nucleus. It passed very close to Jupiter within the zone called the Roche limit. Okay. The Roche limit is the limit whereby the gravity field of a primary mass can overcome and cause the disaggregation of a secondary mass. Now Jupiter has this massive powerful gravity field. A comet nucleus is a very friable, it's not a strongly bound object like an iron asteroid. Right. It can break apart. Shoemaker Levy 9 passed within the Roche limit of Jupiter. The really powerful gravity field of Jupiter ripped it apart. And what had been one nucleus broke into 21 separate objects. Those 21 separate objects then began to spread out in a so called string of pearls. And that made one orbit around the sun, came back out and crossed, intersected the orbit of Jupiter at precisely the time Jupiter was there. Most likely what had been happening is it had been orbiting Jupiter dozens, if not hundreds of times and every time getting a little closer. Every time it went out there, it was drawn in a little tighter. We discovered it right at that point where it was making itself final passage. Right. It may have made dozens of passages before that. We discovered it right at the beginning of its final passage when it had just been ripped apart and was now 21 pieces. So in I think the second week of July 1994, those 21 pieces impacted Jupiter. Impacted Jupiter, yes, one of them.
- [52:33]
Jesse Michaels
And that was 600 times the entire nuclear arsenal on Earth in terms of its destructive force. And what's kind of worrying is I looked at the NASA Dart mission and you know, that was a spacecraft I think was knocking into Dimorphous, which was.
- [52:51]
Randall Carlson
Dimorphous, which is actually two objects. That's why it's two die means two.
- [52:56]
Jesse Michaels
Right, Right. Yeah, but the spacecraft was, you know, was pretty small and Dimorphous is pretty small. Dimorphous is what, like 250 meters or something?
- [53:05]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, it was small.
- [53:06]
Jesse Michaels
So it's, you know, you're talking about a half mile wide versus 250 meters. I still worry about, you know.
- [53:13]
Randall Carlson
And rightfully so. Yeah, rightfully so. Now the thing is, the larger object really the more lead time you need and if we find an object, see, and just like with Jupiter with Shoemaker Levy 9, you know, it took three months of observations because you basically need two things. You need the velocity and you need the geometry of the, the orbit. And when you have those two of what are called the orbital elements, you can now make accurate predictions about when and where something is going to be in its orbit.
- [53:41]
Jesse Michaels
So when you describe the solar system as it's set up to almost funnel in material from outside of the Kuiper Belt, you're almost talking about or touching on this, you know, sort of anthropic principle, this idea that, or a fine tuning principle. Like if Planck's constant were slightly different, you know, gravity would be different, the whole climate of the Earth would be different.
- [54:04]
Randall Carlson
Yes.
- [54:04]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that the solar system was intelligently designed?
- [54:07]
Randall Carlson
Well, see, here we get into some really deep questions that I, you know, I say intelligently designed. I'm almost, you know, my, my philosophy of life, spirituality and say is that the entire universe seems to have intelligence. But what does that even mean? I don't know, it's almost beyond my comprehension. But let's put it this way and say I was totally an atheist and I knew about and I studied these extremely narrow range of parameters within which it seems higher life is even possible. If I was an atheist, I would have to conclude this, that our solar system is extremely unique in that it has exactly these extremely narrowly defined parameters that has allowed life to emerge, first of all, even to emerge on Earth. Second, to get from single cell microbial life up to us. For example, we talked about the moon earlier. If you take the moon away, there's no intertidals. So fine, let's not to mention the.
- [55:17]
Jesse Michaels
Earth would be not rotating in a stable way around its axis. It would be wobbling the moon.
- [55:23]
Randall Carlson
Actually think of the moon as like a great Stabilizing force that helps keep the Earth locked into its 23 and a half degree tilt.
- [55:33]
Jesse Michaels
Another reason it might be geomagnetically engineered.
- [55:37]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, well, see, I'm so mind boggled at the whole situation and I try to wrap my head around and it seems like no matter what explanation I come up with, it's just beyond our ability to even fathom.
- [55:53]
Jesse Michaels
Well, do you think that NASA might have figured something out? Because, I mean, obviously there are all these sort of conspiracies around. Neil Armstrong comes back, he gives a speech three weeks afterwards, and he's giving a speech and he looks kind of, he goes, this is a big step for mankind. And he looks very kind of scared and sheepish and like he's been, you know, dragged out there and possibly traumatized, you know, around what he saw. And so, yeah. Is there something that we're missing in terms of the story with the Moon? You know, I think there's a lot more missing. Was this created sort of as a noble mythology around the space race with the Soviets, where we wanted to encourage, maybe rightly so, you know, technological innovation and exploration and the knowledge of a final frontier. But maybe we sacrificed ontological truth in the process.
- [56:45]
Randall Carlson
Perhaps. Or we're getting closer to it. What I try to do is I say there are cosmological and epistemological questions that I don't know if I could answer. So I kind of like bring it in a little closer. And I think like, in terms of this, if we look at the very narrow range of parameters that we see in our particular solar system, I was about to say about the moon creating this intertidal zone, you know, and if you, if you're, let's say you're geoengineering a planet and you're introducing life into the marine realm, you have to have an ocean first of all. You introduce life into there. But in order to get the higher life, you have to bring it out onto the land, if that's a requirement to get higher. Sentient beings with 1,100 cubic centimeter cranial capacities, able to think and reason and all of the things that go along with our intelligence. You have to go through a certain sequence of transitional phases. Well, to get from the ocean onto land would be impossible essentially without an intermediary zone where species could make that transition from an exclusively marine existence to an exclusively terrestrial existence that's provided by the intertidal zone. You know, even earlier speculations about the origins of life always went to these, you know, the tide pools that form in the intertidal zone as being the optimum nurturing place for multi celled life.
- [58:27]
Jesse Michaels
You get all sorts of chemical reactions.
- [58:29]
Randall Carlson
Primordial soup, but you take the moon away, you got no intertidal zone. Now it's a whole lot trickier to get life from the ocean onto the land.
- [58:40]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think in some ways maybe we're part of a cosmic war and that if you had to describe the two factions, sort of, very roughly speaking, there's maybe one celestial faction that mines humanity for consciousness or sort of wants to keep us sort of in the fetal position or repressed or dumbed down and maybe a la Roswell. A lot of our Internet technology was sort of dropped by these people to distract us constantly, or not people, but beings. And then there's some other, you know, there's some other entities that are maybe, you know, want us to ascend to their level and want us to. So the dichotomy would be described by like, you know, Antichrist and Armageddon and you know, on the one hand, you know, the apocalypse, the great unveiling, you can you see more. And then on the other hand, you know, we're sort of chained to our little cubicles and we're maybe being mined for something, you know, not, you know, unwittingly, if that makes sense.
- [59:44]
Randall Carlson
That's an interesting scenario. And I'm not sure if I necessarily go along with it. You know, I don't rule out the possibility of interstellar contact. I tend to be skeptical about the UFO phenomena being interstellar.
- [60:05]
Jesse Michaels
You think it's sort of non Copernican. You think it's Earth? That's what like if you talk to Jacques Vallee, he would say that they've been with us for thousands of years and they're sort of controlling like the Earth in many ways is like, you know, they're upping and lowering the thermostat and they have a control system and religion has a proto architecture that maybe these beings have created.
- [60:26]
Randall Carlson
Well, see, that's where my thinking, where I tend to, is not so much these beings as being the other, but basically just being a separate branch of humanity.
- [60:38]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting. Okay, so let's get into that. So are these the Atlanteans?
- [60:44]
Randall Carlson
Well, there are traditions going back to the Chaldeans, to the Sumerians. I mean, I think Rob brought. Do we have it right here, The Chaldean account of. I don't know if I could find the passage immediately, but there are references to when, for example, the great catastrophe overwhelmed the Earth.
- [61:07]
Jesse Michaels
The gods is Your point? That maybe at every civilizational cycle, when there's cataclysm, some subset saves themselves.
- [61:18]
Randall Carlson
Yes.
- [61:19]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting.
- [61:20]
Randall Carlson
Yes. In fact, I think there's a tradition that's been handed down. Now, this is speculative, but I think that one could make a point, pretty strong circumstantial case that there has existed since prehistoric times a tradition about these great cycles and how the planet is subject to periodic catastrophes. Let me, let me.
- [61:45]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think we're verging on one now?
- [61:47]
Randall Carlson
Let me put it this way. I think that what happens is. Here's the analogy I've used many times. I think it's an appropriate analogy. Suppose you're on a big racetrack and you're in a car, you're driving along and there's nobody else on the racetrack. Let's say it's a country road and it's a huge, big elliptical highway you're on and there's nobody on it, right? No traffic. Alright, so you're listening to your headphones, you're maybe, you know, texting while you're driving because it's cool, you're going down a country road, nice spacious country road, and there's nobody else on it. Right. You don't drive with the same attention and the same type of awareness as you do if you're in rush hour traffic, obviously. Right. I love driving on country roads when there's no other traffic and just sitting back enjoying the scenery, listening to some tunes, maybe, you know, having a tote now and then, at least back in the old days. In the old days.
- [62:45]
Jesse Michaels
Not anymore.
- [62:46]
Randall Carlson
Not anymore. No, not anymore. That is way back in the old days. But suppose you're driving down the road and up ahead there's an intersection and it's a busy highway that crosses the road you're on and there's traffic coming and going. Or maybe it's one way, they're all going in the same direction for a little while. When you're crossing that intersection, the probabilities or possibilities of an impact of having a crash go up by orders of magnitude. Now, as you're traversing that intersection at this point now you need to be cautious, you need to be aware of what you're doing, presumably if you can accelerate or brake as you need to. But let's say you're in a car where you have no control over. It's one of maybe, what do they call it, the robot, the cars. Self driving cars.
- [63:41]
Jesse Michaels
Self driving cars.
- [63:42]
Randall Carlson
You're on a self driving car. So, okay, so now you're coming up to this intersection, you got to go, well, I hope that there's a space when I come up there. Now, the probabilities of an impact of a crash are going to be totally dependent upon the density of the traffic. Right.
- [63:58]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think this is the hermetic reason to try to get to the moon?
- [64:02]
Randall Carlson
We'll come back to that. Good question. Come back to that. So to complete the analogy is this. If you know that there are periods where you're crossing the intersection, there's two things to take away from this. It's not necessarily foreordained that you're going to 100% every time you're going to have a crash. It simply means that the periodicity is that there are zones where the susceptibility of a crash increases by orders of magnitude. Right. I think this is an analogy of kind of like what we're in. There are places like, for example, let's say that there's a red light somewhere down on this highway that you're crossing. So what happens is a red light. If there's no red lights, cars naturally get spread out. Kinematically, that's called. If there's a red light, everybody gets clustered. So the red light changes to green. And now instead of cars spread out, they're clustered and they're moving along together. Right. Let's say that for whatever reason, as you're crossing the highway, there are zones where the density is fairly low, but there's other places where the density is high. Right now, instead of a highway you're crossing, you're crossing a meteor stream. Depending on how old that meteor stream is, is going to determine how spread out the stuff is and whether or not there are clusters, clusters, clumps, if you will, within that orbit. It's exactly analogous to the torrid meteor stream. If you know that we cross that torrid meteor stream twice each year and that within that stream, which covers millions of miles, there are clumps. If you knew that, you know what, in such and such year for 10 years, we're going to be crossing the stream when there's a high density clump there. Okay, so now you know that the probabilities, the danger. It's not again, foreordained that there's absolutely certain that you're going to have an impact. But what you know is that the possibility of an impact goes up exponentially. Now, if you're a civilization and you know that and you're aware of that, what do you do? How do you plan for such a thing? I'd Say there's two things. One, you try to take preventative action somehow to prevent the crashes, to prevent that. How do you do that? Well, the idea I like most is that you are actually able to move stuff out of the way if you've got an advanced enough civilization. And we saw the very, very first attempts at that with the DART mission. Imagine that we continue the DART experiments for another 50 or 100 years. I'd say we're probably going to be pretty good at being able to nudge dangerous asteroids out of the way.
- [67:02]
Jesse Michaels
Maybe you get the second stage of starship, which is much bigger.
- [67:06]
Randall Carlson
There we go. There you go.
- [67:09]
Jesse Michaels
That might be able to move something bigger.
- [67:11]
Randall Carlson
But let's say that you also know that there might be circumstances where, particularly if you're in a clump, if the difference between a single asteroid and the shower of a fragmented comet nucleus will actually be two very different scenarios, because in a cometary shower you might have hundreds of objects. Now, the other thing I said in the summertime Taurids, late June, early July, what happened in late June of 1908?
- [67:46]
Jesse Michaels
Tunguska.
- [67:47]
Randall Carlson
Tunguska.
- [67:48]
Jesse Michaels
Isn't there speculation that the 1908 Tunguska event was possibly correct? Correct, because the Tunguska event took place.
- [67:55]
Randall Carlson
On 30 June 1908. It was an airburst. It exploded in the air, flattened 2,000 square miles of trees, didn't kill anybody because it was, was over an uninhabited.
- [68:05]
Jesse Michaels
Area of Siberia, but did enormous, enormous damage.
- [68:09]
Randall Carlson
And the fact that it occurred on 30 June suggests very strongly that it was part of the Taurid meteor stream, because that is the peak of the Taurids in June. Almost certainly a member of the taured meteor stream, June 30, June 30. And it also actually its radiant point, where it came from space. Remember, here's the sun exactly where it needed to be if it was a member of the Taurids.
- [68:32]
Jesse Michaels
So the second thing you would do outside of deflection technology is move underground.
- [68:38]
Randall Carlson
Move to a place of refuge or.
- [68:40]
Jesse Michaels
A place of refuge, which could be.
- [68:43]
Randall Carlson
The moon, which could be off planet. And to a civilization with space faring capabilities, to me, the moon would be the logical place.
- [68:56]
Jesse Michaels
So why would they have some sort of prime directive of non interference if they're so far advanced? You know, so let's just assume, let's. This is we're crazy speculative territory here. I know that, you know, you're not, you're not saying any of this is true, but say that there's aspects of the Atlanteans say that there are groups of Atlanteans that saved themselves and moved into sort of compartments of the moon. And Maybe they're the UFOs that we've been seeing. Maybe they use sort of water on Earth to refuel. Maybe they're actually underwater bases as well. Again, crazy speculation. If that's true, why do they seem to be so weakly entangled with human beings? Why do they say this, present themselves to us?
- [69:40]
Randall Carlson
I would say this, I think, as we advance. Like, I look at what's happening right now, and I look at what our own government has done since World War II. It's interfered and intervened in a hundred different things. You know, engineering, you know, elections, organizing coups, you know, economic interference, political interference, military interference.
- [70:11]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [70:12]
Randall Carlson
And what we see now is we're sitting here moving close to a major confrontation with the greatest nuclear power on Earth.
- [70:21]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, that's pretty scary.
- [70:22]
Randall Carlson
For what. For what purpose, ultimately, is the end game of us trying to control Eastern.
- [70:28]
Jesse Michaels
Ukraine, you know, man. Yeah. No, that's crazy. And it's provocatory.
- [70:34]
Randall Carlson
Yes, it is.
- [70:35]
Jesse Michaels
And it's scary. I think as of today, the Russians dispatched this nuclear ship, and it's now above Norway. And so. And then, you know, we just ordered all of our citizens to leave Russia. You know, we have no idea why. This is very scary.
- [70:53]
Randall Carlson
Crazy, crazy.
- [70:55]
Jesse Michaels
And I think Putin has a tattoo that says, bend a knee for no man. And, you know, obviously was president of the. Not the kgb, the fsb, or were very involved in the kgb. Not a thug, not a good guy.
- [71:07]
Randall Carlson
Now, here's. Yeah, he doesn't, you know, none of the Soviet leaders were good guys, but we managed to avoid war with them. We carried on diplomatic relations. That's how we avoided war. Right. You know, Roosevelt met with. With Stalin. Stalin was way worse than Putin.
- [71:29]
Jesse Michaels
Way worse.
- [71:29]
Randall Carlson
Way worse. Yeah.
- [71:31]
Jesse Michaels
And I mean, Stalin was Time magazine's man of the year in 1945.
- [71:35]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, I was. Well, yeah, but so we've, you know, from, you know, from Stalin through Khrushchev through, you know, Andropov, Kosygin, Yeltsin, Mikhail Gorbachev, we have carried on dialogues. Right. This is not going on now.
- [71:57]
Jesse Michaels
Well, here's what my basic mapping of the world is. It's almost like the globalist forces that repressed war over the last 70 years. Like this sort of neoliberal order is in its death throes.
- [72:11]
Randall Carlson
Well, I'm hoping. See, and this circles back to your question. I think that what we have now is we have a belligerently interventionist foreign policy. I think that if we evolve to where our leaders were wise, you know, and looking at the long term picture, they would realize that this kind of intervention is ultimately going to lead to the demise of civilization.
- [72:41]
Jesse Michaels
Well, the US is running a loop that worked for some time. You know, it worked. And then you had Desert Storm and then you get Iraq in 2003 and it's just continuous like sort of false flag Creighton auspice. And then you go in and, and you know, the dollar is, it's a petrodollar, it's tied to oil. And so you create all these sort of mandates to be, you know, pretty aggressive and almost be kind of a neo imperial regime. And it really did work for a long time, but it worked in a regime of economic growth and domestic, you know, relative domestic peace. And it doesn't, it feels like a cargo cult now. Like it's not working. You're running this like kind of loop that doesn't really work anymore anymore. And so it's scary.
- [73:25]
Randall Carlson
It is scary. And it's leading us into a confrontation because there's no. See when you go back to the days of the diplomacy and you actually had people running this country who I think had some level of consciousness about them. When you look at some of the great leaders after World War II, say John Kennedy, he was to me a preeminent example of somebody who you can even see the wisdom just in a few years that's emerging in his understanding of the world. We can certainly get into all the discussion of his assassination and all of that. I think that was a major turning point.
- [74:08]
Jesse Michaels
But they didn't make people like even him today. He won a Purple Heart I think in Vietnam. Sorry, no, he won a Purple Heart in World War II.
- [74:18]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [74:19]
Jesse Michaels
Because he like dragged one of his people, crewmen on of his ship by his teeth to shore. Two miles he swam. He saved the guy's life.
- [74:30]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [74:30]
Jesse Michaels
And then they were like, you know, on, on the beach somewhere for, for like two days until somebody in the air finally found them. Fighter pilot finally found them. And so you know, that's not today's leaders. That's not, you know, you can't find that anymore.
- [74:46]
Randall Carlson
It is not.
- [74:47]
Jesse Michaels
And that's him. And you know, people then would probably call him soft compared to like Theodore Roosevelt.
- [74:52]
Randall Carlson
So perhaps so. But here's, I guess the point would be this. I think that if we survive as a civilization on this planet, it's going to become. Because the dominant powers Basically become non interventionist. In other words, I have neighbors next door here and we're friends and we communicate in this. We don't fight. Right. I don't intervene in their business, they don't intervene in mine. And because we don't do that, we get along. What we have now is a government that's totally committed to intervention around the entire world. This is full spectrum dominance. This is global hegemony. This is what. There's a cabal within the US government that wants to dominate the entire planet. And one of the things, the greatest obstacles to that dominance is Russia because for one thing, Russia isn't buying into the new world order bullshit. And they've decided that they're going to disconnect from the American dollar and perhaps even go back to gold.
- [76:01]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that there is a kind of a paramilitary group or they're kind of old, old wealthy families that might have leverage over the United States beyond the kind of. It seems like prima facie.
- [76:12]
Randall Carlson
It seems like it. I don't know if there's really any hidden hands so much as I'm kind of more of the mind that we can, we can figure out and see who, who the key players are.
- [76:24]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think there are elements of the US government that have retrieved alien craft and are reverse engineering it?
- [76:31]
Randall Carlson
Well now see, that brings us back to the other question that you asked, said that we haven't really answered yet is why you ask this? Why have they not? If these hypothetical entities living wherever. And we're speculating that perhaps based on the moon, you asked why they haven't intervened. Yeah.
- [76:52]
Jesse Michaels
Why do they drop little things here?
- [76:54]
Randall Carlson
Well, I think that most. I would think that's exactly how we would do it if we. You brought up the cargo cults. If we were trying to make contact with a primitive civilization. Let's say that there's a civilization on an island that, you know, I mean even in going into the 20th century, we know that there were advanced industrial cultures living almost side by side with primitive hunter gatherers.
- [77:21]
Jesse Michaels
Say you're Indian now and you want to affect the North Sentinelese who haven't been touched. Basically. What do you do? Like, you know, would you act like the Atlanteans on the moon or act.
- [77:31]
Randall Carlson
I would think that's how you would do it.
- [77:33]
Jesse Michaels
So in what, in your mind, what have they been doing? They've been airdropping tech here and there and maybe whispering and scientists.
- [77:42]
Randall Carlson
They've been showing up in our skies to let us know that hey, there's something bigger going on here. And I don't think we need to go to the stars and think extraterrestrial for that, because I think we could make the case that. And this actually fits quite well with some of the ancient traditions that humanity has split, maybe even several occasions. And if we were faced with the kind of disaster on the scale of the Younger Dryas now, and we knew that a large comet comes into the inner solar system, and we are observing it on a monthly and yearly basis, undergoing a hierarchy of fragmentation events, and we know that sooner or later we're going to have encounters where it's very likely that this planet gets pummeled. What do we do? Well, we could do a bunch of things, but the main thing is we create a place of refuge. And the logical place, and this is even scenarios that have been proffered by NASA is that a logical place for us to create a place of refuge would be the Moon. And this is being presented with no reference whatsoever to the possibility that. That this may have once or more than once happened before. And, in fact, think about this, Jesse. What if there was a tradition that there was an ongoing place of refuge? Just like think about the book how the Irish Saved Civilization. What happened during those dark ages of the 500s to, like, the 900s, 400 years, where the advance, the forward momentum of civilization almost came to a screeching halt, Right? And we can see the effects weren't just cultural, they were also natural. We can see that there was literal times of darkness. The years 536 to 542 A.D. were periods where the records of the monks and the people who were living through that time talk about weeks and months at a time when they couldn't see the sun. That could be the result of two things. It could be a spasm of volcanic activity that fills the atmosphere with stuff, or it could be close encounters with disintegrating comets. Fred Hoyle has done a whole scenario where some of the particulate matter of a disintegrating comet nuclei would so saturate the upper atmosphere and be so highly reflective that the thermal energy of the sun would get radiated back into space. And it would do two things. It would create perpetual absence of the sun from the visible sun in the sky, and it would also cause a plunge in the temperature. Those two things seem to have happened simultaneously in that period in the mid 6th century. This, in turn, led to pretty much a collapse of civilization that took around 400 years for civilization, at least in Europe anyway, to recover. And that recovery occurred once the cold and the dark dissipated and the warmth of the Medieval Warm period came back again in between around 1000 AD. Right. Now think of it this way. You had during that period of time, like you can again, I would recommend the book how the Irish Saved Civilization because during that time the Irish retreated into a series of monasteries. And what they did was they dedicated themselves to preserving as much of the knowledge of the times, the historical records, the traditions to keep all of that alive. And so you have Druidic and Celtic traditions being preserved in these monasteries. And when the climate of the earth ameliorated again with the return of the warmth and the sun, they were there with their books, they were there with their traditions that they had preserved. This helped to accelerate the recovery of Western civilization.
- [82:08]
Jesse Michaels
So, but if you're the Atlanteans, why don't you just come down, you say, hey, we have this advanced technology, we can get a bunch of you up to the moon. Are they waiting to see who's worthy? Is that it?
- [82:17]
Randall Carlson
Well, there could be a number of.
- [82:19]
Jesse Michaels
Reasons for that limited space on the moon.
- [82:22]
Randall Carlson
I'm thinking, well, that, well, there might be more space than you would anticipate. But the, the Earth is.
- [82:29]
Jesse Michaels
The moon is a fourth of the earth size. Is that right?
- [82:32]
Randall Carlson
It's 2.72, I think. Let's see. Yeah, the moon is to the earth as 11 is to 3.
- [82:41]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, so yeah, roughly. Yeah, okay.
- [82:44]
Randall Carlson
11 to 3 is very close to the Earth Moon diameter ratios.
- [82:48]
Jesse Michaels
Do you worry about a cataclysm or maybe answer that question first? Yeah. So why don't they interfere with us more directly or why don't they try to help us more directly?
- [82:57]
Randall Carlson
Well, I think that part of it is, I think they have a very strict and of course purely speculative, but it would seem to me that if you advance to that level, you would most likely practice a strict non interventionist policy.
- [83:13]
Jesse Michaels
Why is that?
- [83:14]
Randall Carlson
Well, the same reason, because there's always downsides. Whenever we intervene, there's always a downside. Oh, we're going to intervene with our foreign aid? Well, what happens? The foreign aid doesn't go to the recipient, it goes to a bunch of oligarchs and dictators who use it to oppress their people.
- [83:30]
Jesse Michaels
Like the Iraq War. You remove Saddam as a sort of a pressure valve.
- [83:34]
Randall Carlson
Exactly.
- [83:35]
Jesse Michaels
And all of a sudden Iran is emboldened and ISIS moves.
- [83:39]
Randall Carlson
I think that what we've seen, 20th century history has shown us that there's always blowback.
- [83:46]
Jesse Michaels
Or the CIA trains Osama Bin Laden in the Muhajideen.
- [83:50]
Randall Carlson
That's what I mean. There's always this blowback and it's at some point you figure out, okay, you know what, we're not going to intervene anymore, politically or militarily. We'll practice free trade, but there won't be a policy. There's a huge difference between free trade and cultural exchange, artistic exchange that brings people together.
- [84:14]
Jesse Michaels
So Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, had it right. Prime Directive non interference.
- [84:20]
Randall Carlson
Yes, there we go.
- [84:22]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting.
- [84:23]
Randall Carlson
Yes.
- [84:24]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that gravity is. Do you have a theory of physics that maybe transcends gravity? Do you think gravity is maybe a couched within electromagnetism or.
- [84:36]
Randall Carlson
This gets complicated and this brings us into some of this where I'm at now with my studies.
- [84:42]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [84:42]
Randall Carlson
And as I'm trying to wrap my head around plasma physics as possibly part of our own energy future as well as possibly our remote energy past.
- [84:56]
Jesse Michaels
Well, people have always wondered about gravity. Well, the two anomalies that I always look at in physics, and I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff, but the things intuitively that I feel are off are gravity and time. And in relativity those two are coupled in very weird ways. And then when you get to super subscale quantum, he can't really reconcile that with gravity.
- [85:18]
Randall Carlson
Right.
- [85:18]
Jesse Michaels
And then you possibly get some time spookiness around subatomic scales as well. That, you know, that would be certain interpretations. And so yeah, obviously gravity is much, much weaker than the electromagnetic force as well. Is there some sort of magnetic pulling force between celestial bodies that weakly correlates with its mass, but that's more magnetic in nature or. Yeah, I don't know. How do you think about it?
- [85:48]
Randall Carlson
I don't really have thoughts on that so much as. But thinking about the whole issue of quantum entanglement.
- [85:57]
Jesse Michaels
Can I shift gears then? Unless you want.
- [86:01]
Randall Carlson
Okay.
- [86:02]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think the magnetic field of the Earth is weakening, which then allows for all sorts of solar storm events and I think scary X rays, radiation.
- [86:12]
Randall Carlson
I think it's more volatile and dynamic than it has been assumed. I don't, you know, what does it take to cause a magnetic field reversal? I think the last magnetic field reversal was about 700,000 years ago. But there's also magnetic geomagnetic excursions that are referred to. What causes that? I don't know. I would certainly think though that what the events of the younger Dryas, if anything, would be capable of causing fluctuations within the geomagnetic field those events could be.
- [86:45]
Jesse Michaels
And why is that? So there's a guy named Charles Hapgood who we've talked about, and he writes about pole shifts.
- [86:51]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [86:52]
Jesse Michaels
And there are people, especially a lot of people online, that are like, you know, every 12,000 years the Poles shift and then, you know, everything resets. That to me feels way too kind of neat and perfect. Oversimplified and oversimplified. And so you have an interesting explanation for why the poles shift, which then might result in geomagnetic anomalies as well. But there's something upstream of both of those, right?
- [87:13]
Randall Carlson
Well, I wish I had my globe sitting on the table here, which I will have here eventually. But the Earth is an oblate spheroid. The equatorial diameter is 26 miles greater than the polar diameter. So that means that if you're starting at the equator, you travel at the equator to the North Pole, you've gone downhill 13 miles. Relative to the Earth's center of mass, you've gone downhill 13 miles. Okay? Now as the Earth is spinning, you have the distance, say from the crust at the equator, it's going to be 13 miles farther from the Earth's center of gravity than say, Antarctica now or the Arctic Ocean crust. Right. Now what happens is during an ice age, you have this gigantic transfer of surface mass. Now, at the beginning of the Wisconsin Ice Age, we went from a state of basically far less glacial ice on the Earth than there is now. This is way back, say 108,000 years ago. So now over a period of a very short period of time in the geological framework, you have this enormous transfer of mass out of the ocean basins up onto the continent, up to the point where ocean levels worldwide drop 400, 450ft. You get 6 to 7 million cubic miles of glacial ice piled up on the Earth's surface. Now, I've gotten very much into the phenomena of how the crust of the Earth responds to this redistribution of surface mass. And I get very much into that in my Atlantis 8 hour, 9 hour Atlantis lecture that's available online for download if anybody is interested in diving into this further. Okay, so what happens is there is isostatic adjustment, it's called, which ever since the 60s, we've accepted that there's lateral movements of the Earth's crust. You know, Hapgood, in a sense, kind of anticipated continental drift, although in his scenarios it was much, much faster than the models of continental drift now is a few centimeters per year. And so supposedly, you know, if you have a, you know, coalescing where plates are coming together, you're going to have either an overriding of one plate or you're going to have a buckling. This produces orogenesis, the uplifting of mountains. If you got like on the leading edge of a plate or if you're on a separation zone like the Mid Atlantic Ridge, it's going to be separating. Magma is going to be welling up from the mantle, spreading out. And this is how they set up that chronostratigraphic framework based upon changes in the geomagnetic field. Because when the magma crystallizes, it freezes in. It locks in the orientation of the minerals along the prevailing magnetic field. Right. So this is how we know that the magnetic field, the primary way we know that the magnetic field is actually quite dynamic. But now getting back to what I'm talking about here is that we're accepting lateral movement. And we know just from Hudson Bay, for example, that and even from studies around Lake Bonneville and other places that the Earth's crust can move vertically. This is the isostatic movement vertical. Right now, up in Hudson Bay, it appears that the crust of the Earth has been depressed by the weight of the ice at least 1500ft, maybe in places much more than that. Now picture you've got a big beach ball. That's the Earth. And let's say we decide to put massive amounts of weight at both of the poles and it's going to compress the Earth this way. What's going to happen this way? It's going to expand, isn't it? The beach ball? Assuming that the amount of air is constant, the beach ball is going to try to maintain a uniformity, consistency of volume. So in other words, if it shrinks one way, it has to compensate by expanding elsewhere. This is why I get into the whole question of what happened with Atlantis is because when you pile up 6 million cubic miles of ice onto North America and maybe another million cubic miles, 2 million cubic miles of ice over northwestern Europe, it's squashing down the crust right now. At the same time you're doing that. What you're doing is you're creating subsurface pressures. Also as you're increasing the weight here, what's happening to the weight of the water in the ocean basins? Because the water in the oceans is being evaporated out, precipitated out, as snowfall. But when you have the onset of a glacial age, the whole natural yearly annual hydrological cycle of the planet is completely disrupted. Like right now. What happens is that we get a lot of snow in Canada and northern United States. It accumulates every winter. Spring comes, it melts, it goes into the Rivers, it's transported back to the sea, it goes into the groundwater. Right. So you've got this constancy in the system, the amount of water evaporated out in the summer, it falls as rainfall, and it immediately goes into the hydrosphere. If it's a northern latitude, Canada, for example, northern Europe, it falls a snowfall, but then there's a delay of up to months at a time before it melts and reintroduces into the hydrosphere. Right. So now what happens with the onset of a glacial age? It is almost this. It would be almost. And given that we know about the time frames in which these climatic transitions can occur, it is almost as if somebody flips a switch. Winter comes on and then it doesn't end for 10,000 years. But the conundrum, and the problem is you're still evaporating very large volumes of, of water out of the ocean basins to precipitate out and build up an ice sheet that's a mile, mile and a half, maybe even two miles thick. So there's the paradox of an ice age. For one thing, it's got to be cold enough that that snow is piling up, compressing down first into fern, then to compress down more into glacial ice, but it's not melting. But at the same time, you're getting huge amounts of snowfall, which means that there's water vapor up in the atmosphere. And how does that water vapor, vapor get there? That requires heat. There's your conundrum.
- [94:09]
Jesse Michaels
Can you explain that paradoxically?
- [94:10]
Randall Carlson
No, I can't. I have some kind of vague thoughts on it. But let's circle back to this idea of isostasy. The onset of an ice age comes along, it interrupts that cycle. Now what happens is winter comes on to the world and it doesn't go away for 10,000, 12,000 years. You've got this huge mass of ice pressing down. You have hundreds of trillions of billions of tons of ice pressing down on the surface of the Earth. At the same time, weight is being released from the ocean basins. So what's going to happen naturally to the ocean basins? What's going to be the counterpart of the pushing down the isostatic depression under the ice sheets? It's going to go in the other direction, isn't it? The ocean basins are going to raise up isostatically. And then when you reverse that and you melt away the ice sheets, pour that water back into the ocean, what's going to happen now? The ocean basins are going to respond isostatically by depressing the continents as we know from observations, are going to rebound. Now think about what happens in the geophysical sense of the distribution of the continental masses, the crust of the Earth, when over a period of a few thousand years, which is just a geological instant, it's suddenly 2,000ft out of whack with the latitude it would normally be at. In other words, if you push down the polar region, let's say North America is pushed down 2,000ft, you release that weight, it's now rebounding. But when it's rebounded 2,000ft farther away from the center of mass, now it's not in equilibrium with its latitude anymore, is it? No. So what is it going to try to do in order to achieve reequilibrium? I think that what happens is that with the process of glaciation, rapid glaciation or rapid deglaciation, it induces a tremendous amount of instability in the Earth's crust that could manifest as an accelerated episode of continental, of lithospheric movement.
- [96:39]
Jesse Michaels
And that would explain the pole shift.
- [96:41]
Randall Carlson
And that would explain the pole shift.
- [96:43]
Jesse Michaels
Fascinating.
- [96:44]
Randall Carlson
But I don't think that it's something that occurs in days or weeks. I think it takes several thousand years. And in fact, it's still happening. It is still happening. But one more thing within that, I think there are episodes where the transition. It's just like what we saw happen in Turkey and Syria. The stress builds up on a fault line. It keeps building up and building up until finally it overcomes the resistance of the rock, it moves and it creates an earthquake.
- [97:15]
Jesse Michaels
And you've said that there can be possibly tropical zones in Antarctica, right?
- [97:20]
Randall Carlson
Oh, yeah. There are at least subtropical zones.
- [97:24]
Jesse Michaels
What about now?
- [97:26]
Randall Carlson
What do you mean, what about now?
- [97:27]
Jesse Michaels
Are there any sort of habitable, possibly habitable zones in Antarctica?
- [97:31]
Randall Carlson
In Antarctica?
- [97:33]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [97:33]
Randall Carlson
The South Pole. Yeah. I don't know.
- [97:36]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting.
- [97:37]
Randall Carlson
I don't know. It's a whole nother.
- [97:42]
Jesse Michaels
Do you know Admiral Richard Byrd?
- [97:44]
Randall Carlson
I know the stories.
- [97:45]
Jesse Michaels
What do you think of that story?
- [97:47]
Randall Carlson
I don't know what to think. I guess we need to do an Antarctica expedition.
- [97:52]
Jesse Michaels
Let's. Let's do it.
- [97:53]
Randall Carlson
You've been suggesting that, haven't you?
- [97:54]
Jesse Michaels
I can't wait. Yeah, let's do. I'd love to.
- [97:57]
Randall Carlson
Okay. Can we do the Azores first?
- [98:00]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, let's do the Azores first.
- [98:02]
Randall Carlson
Sounds more suitable for my disposition at this point in my life. Perpetual spring.
- [98:09]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, There you go. Yeah. More of a Caribbean cruise.
- [98:13]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [98:16]
Jesse Michaels
You've been a freemason for over 30 years.
- [98:18]
Randall Carlson
Well, let's see. I was initiated in 1978. How many years is that going on? Wow, 45 years.
- [98:25]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, almost.
- [98:26]
Randall Carlson
I was a young man of 27 when I was initiated.
- [98:29]
Jesse Michaels
Okay.
- [98:30]
Randall Carlson
I was raised in March of 1979. Became master of my lodge in 1990.
- [98:37]
Jesse Michaels
Randall, you've been a Freemason for over 40 years.
- [98:40]
Randall Carlson
Unbelievable.
- [98:41]
Jesse Michaels
Unbelievable. How does that dovetail with your interest in the origins of humanity and then these civilizational structures and cataclysms?
- [98:53]
Randall Carlson
I mean, very much so.
- [98:54]
Jesse Michaels
How do they connect?
- [98:54]
Randall Carlson
Masons are the custodians of a very rich tradition of ancient knowledge.
- [99:01]
Jesse Michaels
What is that ancient knowledge?
- [99:02]
Randall Carlson
Well, architecture, sacred geometry, astronomy, music.
- [99:08]
Jesse Michaels
You build both homes and commercially, during the day, that's your day job, which always fascinated me, because I don't know how you know as much as you do about this sort of esoteric stuff and the geology. And yet you are able to. We're going to a restaurant later. That you built.
- [99:26]
Randall Carlson
That's right.
- [99:27]
Jesse Michaels
That's pretty cool.
- [99:29]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, it is very cool. Well, you know, to me it's all intertwined. You know, My interest in geology, I'm sorry, geometry, primarily stems from early building projects I did in the early 70s. You know, building Buckminster Fuller Dome, for.
- [99:46]
Jesse Michaels
Example, like, you built. What do they call Bucky?
- [99:51]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, Bucky Domes.
- [99:52]
Jesse Michaels
Bucky Domes, Yeah. You built a Bucky Dome?
- [99:55]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, a couple of them.
- [99:56]
Jesse Michaels
Really?
- [99:56]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [99:57]
Jesse Michaels
Is that true?
- [99:58]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't make that up.
- [100:01]
Jesse Michaels
So that got you into Freemasonry was Buckminster Fuller?
- [100:03]
Randall Carlson
Well, I didn't do it with Buckminster Fuller. Ah, no. I mean, no, I never met Bucky. I would have loved to have met Bucky, but I didn't.
- [100:09]
Jesse Michaels
No, I know you didn't meet him, but you built Bucky Domes. And was he inspired by Freemasonry in any way?
- [100:17]
Randall Carlson
I don't. I've never seen any evidence of that.
- [100:20]
Jesse Michaels
But maybe my friend was just telling me that he went to this place called Black Mountain College or something. Black Mountain University?
- [100:26]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. North Carolina.
- [100:27]
Jesse Michaels
North Carolina, exactly. Which almost seems Freemasonic in some ways because it was so interdisciplinary and it taught play. D'oh.
- [100:35]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that kind of has served that way as a model, a smaller scale model of the school I'd like to build, which we are going to build.
- [100:46]
Jesse Michaels
Wait, so what does Freemasonry have to do with this?
- [100:52]
Randall Carlson
Well, Freemasonry, historically, I think we can trace it back to the conservative interpretation is it traces back to the early 1700s, but when I became a Mason, that was the dominant view. I think there's been plenty of Scholarship now that can show a succession going back to the Middle Ages and the building of the Gothic cathedrals. And I think there were two traditions that sort of merged together that became the basis for modern Freemasonry, one being the Guild, the lodge system of guild builders that actually built the cathedrals and the Templar Knights, because we find both very prevalent throughout modern Masonic tradition.
- [101:36]
Jesse Michaels
How did the Templars affect the Freemasons?
- [101:40]
Randall Carlson
Well, I think a lot of their. Particularly in things like the York Rite and a lot of the ceremonies and stuff, there's a lot of Templar references, things that seem to have parallels with what we know about Templar ceremonies and things. So, yeah, I think that the two main streams that came together out of which modern Freemasonry was born was the Templar tradition and the. And the guild tradition of cathedral builders.
- [102:08]
Jesse Michaels
So are these. You know, in popular lore, people see Masons both as very good. You know, the Founding Fathers were all Masons, obviously, and then sometimes evil and sort of trying to control the world or whatever. And you even read like Manly P. Hall's what is it like the Secret Destiny of America or whatever, and it just feels this. Like this sort of globalist aspirations.
- [102:30]
Randall Carlson
Well, I'd like to point out that, you know, Masons are very proud of famous individuals that have been Masons. So it's well documented who's been a Mason in history, who at present is a Mason. Although here's the thing. If you start looking at all of the characters now that we think of when we talk about New World Order, when we talk about the World Economic Forum, the World Health Organization, when we talk about, you know, the main politicians that are, you know, when we look at all of that, you're not going to find any Freemasons. You know, you look at Klaus Schwab, George Soros, you know, Bill Gates, you know, start going down the list.
- [103:16]
Jesse Michaels
What are those people and what ties?
- [103:18]
Randall Carlson
I don't know what they are, but they're not Freemasons.
- [103:21]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think they're old European families that sort of.
- [103:24]
Randall Carlson
I think so, obviously the Rothschilds. And see, here's the thing. You might have had some of these people become Freemasons, obviously, but I'll point out several things. You said. You mentioned the Founding Fathers, a lot of them were Freemasons, and they drew their traditions of the worth of the individual, of liberty, of democracy, and all those were being practiced within the Lodge system before America was founded.
- [103:53]
Jesse Michaels
The Washington Monument is an obelisk.
- [103:55]
Randall Carlson
It's an obelisk, yes.
- [103:57]
Jesse Michaels
The eye of Osiris on The Freemasons.
- [104:01]
Randall Carlson
Again, if you look like the biblical injunction, by their works ye shall know them. I mean, Freemasons do incredible work and they eschew any kind of recognition. I mean, to the extent that, you know, I'll use an example. You ever heard of the Scottish Rite Hospital for crippled and burned children?
- [104:23]
Jesse Michaels
No. Is that a Freemasonry?
- [104:25]
Randall Carlson
Look it up, look it up, look up. Scottish Rite Hospital. Yes. They on average in America and I. This used to be accurate. Since the numbers of Masons have declined, this number may not be absolute accurate anymore. But in round numbers. Masonry in its heyday, like when I came in the 70s and the 80s and stuff, a million dollars a day, they raised in charity.
- [104:50]
Jesse Michaels
Wow.
- [104:51]
Randall Carlson
Million dollars every day.
- [104:52]
Jesse Michaels
It's awesome.
- [104:53]
Randall Carlson
Yes. And it went to good works and Mason's. A big, huge part of the Masonic traditions is charity. And that's the first thing when you're initiated. One of the first, first things you're taught about is the importance of charity, taking care of your fellow man. You know, the whole idea of brotherhood and brotherly love is right at the cornerstone of the thing. And the stuff that's being promulgated online is total garbage. Yeah, that's garbage.
- [105:25]
Jesse Michaels
That's my sense too. I think, if anything, Freemasonry's unfortunately lost a lot of its vitality. Like.
- [105:33]
Randall Carlson
Oh, it has.
- [105:33]
Jesse Michaels
I wish our leaders were Freemasons.
- [105:36]
Randall Carlson
So do I. I wish they were. I wish they were.
- [105:40]
Jesse Michaels
It's both about Freemasons.
- [105:41]
Randall Carlson
Good luck finding anybody in the Biden administration that's a Freemason.
- [105:44]
Jesse Michaels
Totally, totally. And it's all, it's all about sort of self cultivation, but in a, you know, outside of obviously charity and generosity and brotherly love, but in a well rounded way as well. And in a multidisciplinary, disciplinary way. And in a way that's practical, too.
- [106:03]
Randall Carlson
Practical. Very much. The idea of Freemasonry is very much about leading a practical life. But in the symbols of Freemasonry, you know, the compass and the square, the plumb bob. You know, the plumb bob. Like, how do Masons meet? You've heard of this saying, you know, we conclude a business deal and we just. I do a project for you, you hire me. You know, we fulfilled all the terms of the contract. We're both happy. We end with a handshake, right? We go, are we on the level? Are we square? Meaning. Yeah, we're square. We're good, man. We're both happy. Both of those are pure Masonic terms. Right out of the Masonic Philosophy, you know, are we square? Meaning, you know, is everybody happy with this outcome?
- [106:53]
Jesse Michaels
We've had a fair exchange.
- [106:54]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, we've had a fair exchange. On the level, how do Masons meet on the level? So when you go into a lodge, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, a multi millionaire businessman, corporate head, a plumber or a carpenter, or a famous celebrity. When you go into that lodge, you're all on the same level.
- [107:17]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [107:17]
Randall Carlson
And I've been in lodges where I'm sitting, where they're retired admirals of the Navy and illustrious people who've been very successful in society. But the master of the Lodge sitting in the east with the gavel in hand, who's controlling it all might be a carpenter. And when everybody walk, comes in, it doesn't matter. They pay deference to the one who's sitting in the east because he's the one who is just spent seven years climbing the Masonic ladder that now qualifies him to sit in the east and control all the proceedings in the Lodge with his gavel. So that's how it works. How do Masons meet on the level? How? Park on the square and how act by the plum. Think about a plumb bob. You're holding a string with a weight. Okay, Think about morally uprightness. Think about the term rectitude. See, these are the moral teachings that are just right at the very core of freemasonry. I've had people argue with me online, say, well, you don't know because you go through up to the 32nd degree. But then when you get to the 33rd degree, that's when you find out it's all evil and satanic and all of that. And I go, well, how do you know that? How do you know? So what you're saying to me though, is I've been a Mason For 30 years, 35, 40 years I've climbed up to the 32nd degree, and all of this time I didn't know that the third. And I've sat in lodge with men that I highly respect, that I know that are 33rd degrees, that are pillars of their community, that do so much good in the world, but somehow I've gotten up to the 32nd degree and I don't know that really this 33rd degree is this evil cabal. But you, who's challenged me, who don't know nothing about it, the history of it, you read some bullshit online and now you think you know. And so you're going to tell me, oh, that it's a Secret that I don't know that the 33rd is actually this evil cabal. But you're so astute. You figured it out because you spent five minutes looking at something on the Internet. It's so ridiculous, it would be laughable except for the fact that there are people out there who are totally invested in this belief system, including the dumbass that I was once partnered with who built Sacred Geometry International.
- [109:55]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting. Well, these group. Why do these groups always seem to get persecuted? Like, if there is a line back to the Templars, I think about the Templar story, and I believe they owned a lot of the debt. They had kind of an international banking system, and they owned a lot of the debt of Philip the Fair, Philip IV of Spain. And Philip IV basically slandered them and said that they were doing. They were engaging in all sorts of, you know, weird rituals with each other. And in fact, I think it was. They were sort of dedicating themselves to something higher. And so they were. You know, the rumors were that they were spitting on the cross and doing stuff like that. And I think in their mind, this is. This is what I read from Rudolf Steiner, who's this Austrian philosopher. They were sort of simulating Peter's denial. And so it was all about sort of dedication to something beyond symbology and higher. But obviously there are easy ways to misinterpret spitting on the cross. And they all ended up being burnt at the stake in 1307.
- [111:03]
Randall Carlson
And I don't know how much of that would have been. You know, you can see the smear campaigns going on today. And you know that they're bs. You know, when you see, you know, the mainstream media closing ranks on Graham Hancock and calling him a white supremacist racist promoter of dangerous conspiracy theories. And if you know anything at all, you know that's complete bs, right? But the idea is, you know, now they can't. They'd like to. Some of them would probably like to take and torture Graham, but they can't get away with that. Like they could have once upon a time. But look at this. Every time if you go through history and you look at what happens when despots and tyrants and dictators take over nations, one of the first things they'll do is they'll shut down Masonic lodges. Yeah, that's one of the. Hitler did it, Mao did it, Stalin did it. They outlawed Freemasonry. Now, if Freemasonry was really this secret cabal of Satan worshipping global controllers, why would that be? Why would every dictator then shut Down a Masonic lodge.
- [112:09]
Jesse Michaels
Right.
- [112:10]
Randall Carlson
The other thing I like to point out is of American presidents, 14 of them have been Master Masons. 14. 14.
- [112:18]
Jesse Michaels
But how many have been Episcopalians?
- [112:20]
Randall Carlson
I make that point. 23. That's exactly the point I'm making. 23 of them have been Episcopalians. So you could make exactly the same kind of argument with just as much credibility that it's the Episcopalians who are the secret puppet masters of the globe. See, it's that ridiculous, right?
- [112:39]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that it was rumored that when Jacques de Molay, who was the last grandmaster of the Templars, was persecuted, that he had sort of a theory of how the world worked that might have been somewhat subversive to, like, the setting authorities?
- [112:56]
Randall Carlson
Because I do think that the Templars were custodians of advanced knowledge, and they.
- [113:01]
Jesse Michaels
Were also supposed to have, you know, protected maybe a bloodline of Christ.
- [113:07]
Randall Carlson
This is another possibility. This leads us straight into the whole tradition of the Holy Grail.
- [113:14]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. So do you think the Holy Grail is the human heart, or do you think it's something physical and real?
- [113:19]
Randall Carlson
I think it's a very complex. It's an image for a very complex technology of restoration, of regeneration, of rejuvenation and so on. And that technology can be applied from an individual all the way up to a nation, all the way up to the planet.
- [113:38]
Jesse Michaels
And how do you. What's. How do you even start to think about the Holy Grail, which, you know, feels like an impossible to even conceive of?
- [113:48]
Randall Carlson
Well, you do what I did. I spent like a year or two just diving headfirst into the, you know, late 12th, early 13th century grail romances, from Chretien de Trois to Robert de Baron to Wolfram von Eschenbach to Parseval. Exactly. That's what I did.
- [114:08]
Jesse Michaels
So that's your prescription to people out there, headlong into the 12th and 13th centuries.
- [114:18]
Randall Carlson
That's it.
- [114:19]
Jesse Michaels
Easy. Yeah.
- [114:20]
Randall Carlson
Or, you know, maybe I'll. You know, part of what I'm trying to do is to provide shortcuts for people.
- [114:27]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [114:28]
Randall Carlson
You know, I have been a student of these things since I was in high school in the late 60s. So I've got, you know, half a century and, you know, you asked, like, you know, to me, it's just. I don't know, it's just natural. I learn things. I tend to retain things. I have good retention.
- [114:44]
Jesse Michaels
You have amazing retention. Like, as good as anybody I know. It's like. It's an eidetic memory.
- [114:49]
Randall Carlson
It's a. I've been Told it's an eidetic memory. I'm not. Definitely not photographic memory. Thank God. I don't think I'd want to be photographic memory, but eidetic is that. Yeah, I have good retention. I have a great. What I have is a well developed storage system and a good retrieval system.
- [115:09]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [115:10]
Randall Carlson
Although my retrieval system sometimes lapses sometimes. And I know that the information is there. I just can't get the drawer open, you know, and then later it'll pop open all by itself. I go, okay, there we go. Okay. See, there's my file on the Holy Grail. Let's see who said what. But. But yeah, see, I think that the mind is just, you know, it's the same way as any organ of your body. If you use it, it gets stronger, more efficient. If you don't use it. Yeah, people tend to. They get out of school and they, they quit using their brain and they just. Instead of getting smarter through their life, they just get dumber.
- [115:46]
Jesse Michaels
I agree. I also think that the mind, though, needs a strong constitution behind it. I think the mind is pre leveraged by the stomach and by other. Other organs in the body. And if any of those are sort of out of line, the mind can often be very powerful. But if it's not well integrated, that's like.
- [116:08]
Randall Carlson
Right now my big challenge is getting back, you know, a decade of the last decade. I've had a pretty tough time in some respects. Injuries, injuries.
- [116:19]
Jesse Michaels
Sorry to hear that.
- [116:20]
Randall Carlson
Oh, well, you know, it's natural.
- [116:22]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [116:23]
Randall Carlson
You know, it's being part of being in a human body and doing the kind of work I've done. You know, it was between, you know, construction work and extreme type sports things, you know. Yeah, you don't come through that unscathed. And I wouldn't trade it other than, you know, I've got issues that have slowed me down and because of that, it's shifted my metabolism. But I have the resources now that I didn't have a few years ago. You know, my business was going like gangbusters when the, when the real estate bubble popped in 2009, 2010. And I went from pretty good income to like, very large debts within one year and the dissolution of my company. So I realized then that, that, you know, can have a big effect on you.
- [117:15]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [117:16]
Randall Carlson
You know, really, you know, it sent me reeling, of course. Created a lot of stress.
- [117:21]
Jesse Michaels
Absolutely.
- [117:21]
Randall Carlson
Stress.
- [117:22]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [117:22]
Randall Carlson
And stress can actually be a killer.
- [117:24]
Jesse Michaels
Oh, it's really bad.
- [117:26]
Randall Carlson
It is. So I've tried to do things now to de. Stress my life and you know, it's working. I had a few years spell there where it was a struggle, but I thought, okay, I got to keep my eye on the prize here. I've got to keep moving.
- [117:41]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [117:42]
Randall Carlson
And I got through it, but now I've got residual effects that I'm dealing with. But, you know, I've got.
- [117:49]
Jesse Michaels
C' est la vie.
- [117:50]
Randall Carlson
The last few years, you know, my access to resources is increased enormously as a result of what I've been doing. So I'm in a very position now to pretty much regenerate.
- [118:02]
Jesse Michaels
A. Speaking of which, and at the risk of displaying extreme hubris in this question, but also this sort of. Is emblematic of what I do with you all the time. You were a man of, you know, helping other people with shortcuts. What is your shortcut to the Holy Grail?
- [118:19]
Randall Carlson
Oh, my shortcut for the Holy Grail would be that I have. Well, I've put together a whole presentation where I break it down, I get into the authors, and I analyze the symbolism.
- [118:34]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Do you think it's a physical thing, or do you think it is?
- [118:38]
Randall Carlson
I think I'll put it this way. I think it's a technology. Now, we talked about within the human body or outside of it or anything that's living.
- [118:51]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting.
- [118:52]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. It's a technology of regeneration, sort of.
- [118:57]
Jesse Michaels
Regeneration. Interesting, yeah.
- [119:00]
Randall Carlson
So for a debilitated body, it can regenerate. For a debilitated wasteland, does it explain.
- [119:06]
Jesse Michaels
Sort of spontaneous remissions and healings and that sort of thing?
- [119:10]
Randall Carlson
Well, in a sense, perhaps, yes, but I think that understanding the applications of the technology may appear to be spontaneous, but, I mean, there's very interesting overlaps between the Grail stories, the Grail traditions, and alchemy. The Grail basically is like the counterpart to the philosopher's stone. The philosopher's stone, you know, is regenerative. Right. One of the things that confers longevity. Well, so does the Grail. Right. And in my presentations and in the things that I do publicly in lectures and classes, in private meetings and classes, and what I will be doing in the content that I'll be creating over the next year or two, I'm going to be incrementally taking pieces of this information and disclosing it as much as possible.
- [120:14]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that religion has a sort of proto architecture and that, you know, there are connections between Dionysus and Jesus and Dionysian rituals and Jesus and so you do?
- [120:29]
Randall Carlson
Yes, I do. You know, I look at the spiritual tradition almost as being like. Like a great underground Subterranean river which periodically emerges and breaks through the surface and flows over the surface and it waters the world. It brings the subterranean minerals and the life replenishing waters to the world. It might be 200 years of the magnificent cathedral building which coincided with the disclosure of the Grail romances to the world, which coincided with the troubadours using their spiritual songs and poetry to carry information, sacred information, around the world. And civilization coincided with the first schools of Kabbalah that were established in Spain, corresponded to the rise of Catharism, of Templarism, of the Gnostic building tradition and the building of the magnificent cathedrals in Europe, the architecture of Southeast Asia, the final wave of monumental earthworks in North America, etc. Something came out, something emerged and it watered the spiritual fertility of the planet and then it went back underground.
- [121:59]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that we are living in another such age? So Karl Jasper is the German philosopher, had a term called axial age. And that was like a time when past meaning structures were sort of sloughed off and you get these new sort of revelations. I think he used it to describe the 8 century BC to the 3rd century BC. You had Confucius and Lao Tzu and who else would you have had at that time? Plato and Socrates and Aristotle?
- [122:29]
Randall Carlson
They were a little later, but yeah, during that period of time. Well, I think there are times where you do need new forms. Time changes, the planet changes. The planet that we inhabit is evolving, right? We have to evolve along with it. But at the same time, in order to maximize the probabilities of successful transformations going into the future, we have to keep a viable, vigorous pipeline to our own past. Because there are traditions, I think, that have woven their way through the whole history of civilization. And again, using that analogy of an underground stream emerging from time to time, time watering the meadows, watering the valley, and then life and civilization is abundant and prolific and then it goes back. And then after a period of time, the things are forgotten. There's kind of a drought. We have been in sort of a drought in a sense of spiritual wisdom and knowledge. And now we're at a point where I think the pieces are aligned, where if there's even a small group of people that understand these traditions and the power of these traditions that can take us back to a clearer and deeper understanding of our own origins, we'll have a much better framework for understanding the potential of our future. It is incumbent upon us now that those of us who are making these connections and realizing this, that we do whatever is necessary to turn this tide. That's leading us into Armageddon.
- [124:17]
Jesse Michaels
Absolutely. There's external knowledge, and then in some ways, external knowledge has a limit, and there's also sort of internal latent or dormant knowledge that can be somewhat activated. And so how do you mix those two? Because you seem to be a person who's filled with external knowledge, and yet some of this stuff feels somewhat intuitive as well and maybe revelatory.
- [124:42]
Randall Carlson
One of my mentors, the late Keith Critchlow, used to say, the inner and the outer are reflections of one another. And if you keep that in mind and if you remember that, then you realize that the things we do externally can be. Can be ritualized, can be symbolized and have corresponding effects within the inner domain, and vice versa. Vice versa. So as we go into exploration of our own consciousness and our own subconsciousness, that leads us right back into the entire racial story of our species on this planet. If we recognize that, we can begin to see that all of the external world is really a sacred symbol, and vice versa. See, it works both ways. The inner is a reflection of the outer. So we use the inner to learn more about the world and how it works and understand that the world is this externalization of our own consciousness. And I think that's the approach. And we have to look at the world as a sacred place.
- [125:51]
Jesse Michaels
So how do you. Because to me, it's partially like some sort of holograph. And I'll talk to, like, you know, a boomer crystal healer, and they'll say it's. It's all, you know, an emanation from what's inside. The only thing that matters is, you know, interiority and being self aligned. And then I'll speak to, you know, some industrialist, and they have no internal spiritual life. And, you know, they're complete materialist, reductionist. And neither model is very charismatic.
- [126:17]
Randall Carlson
To me, this is exactly my perspective.
- [126:19]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, so how do you reconcile those two things?
- [126:23]
Randall Carlson
Well, like where I said, I mean, you begin to look at the things in the external world. You begin to look for the sacredness and the symbology of the things in the world around you.
- [126:32]
Jesse Michaels
Yes, but not everything is a symbol. You're not.
- [126:35]
Randall Carlson
Everything is a symbol.
- [126:36]
Jesse Michaels
In the book the Alchemist, where everything is like, you're wearing green, and green's my favorite color. So it's a great day. You know, like, that's too much.
- [126:44]
Randall Carlson
That's too much.
- [126:45]
Jesse Michaels
But then there's sometimes it does. Sometimes you are experiencing a real synchronicity that is some, you know, there's some esoteric underpinning and you're experiencing the exoteric layer. And that's a really exciting, almost recognition of some primordial soul knowledge in the real world. And that's crazy.
- [127:01]
Randall Carlson
One of the things that I've been doing recently is I did a. I did a presentation on Halloween to show the sacred origins of Halloween, the symbolical origins. And then I did one on winter solstice Christmas. And that's the deep symbolical connotations of that going back trans. Culturally, way back into the past. I'm gonna do another one. Easter. I'm gonna do up in Nashville.
- [127:28]
Jesse Michaels
Rebirth.
- [127:29]
Randall Carlson
Nashville. Am I going to. No, no, no. It's out in Arizona, near Sedona. We're going to be doing Easter, kind of an Easter recognition. And coupled with that will be a lot of material on the Holy Grail.
- [127:44]
Jesse Michaels
And with Easter that sort of matches, like this tale of Persephone's quest to the underworld.
- [127:49]
Randall Carlson
Yes, very much. Very much, yeah. The idea of the death and resurrection of the God of the royal personage, you know, the death and resurrection of the king or the queen. Yeah. The crucifixion took place. Easter is a recognition of the crucifixion. The whole crucifixion story is a Christianization of the whole Grail mythos because very much the whole idea of the chalice is that Joseph of Arimathea, who took the body of Christ off the cross, which is all symbolical. I'm not saying that there wasn't really an actual crucifixion that happened, but even if there was, it doesn't negate the possibility that it was also symbolical. And I think that maybe to understand it, we have to look at it in that bimodal fact that it was both symbolical, that it was a recapitulation of the ancient mystery play, which was the death and resurrection of nature, the death and resurrection of the royal personage, the death and resurrection of the world itself. Right. The death and resurrection of civilization, all of these things on these levels.
- [129:03]
Jesse Michaels
Last time I was with you, you did a private presentation for me after our on air conversation where you presented this whole case for Jesus having not actually died. And you talk about the hyssop as this actual sedative that he almost used to trick the governor at the time, the Roman governor, Pilate, who poked him with a stick and he was sort of like incapacitated, but he was actually alive and he was sort of resuscitated by these herbs of Joseph of Arimathea. Do you sort of stand by that thesis? First of all, Am I making you uncomfortable right now?
- [129:41]
Randall Carlson
No, it was not Pontius Pilate poking him with a stick. It was, it was, it was the centurion with the lamps.
- [129:49]
Jesse Michaels
Oh, it wasn't Pilate?
- [129:50]
Randall Carlson
No, it wasn't Pilate.
- [129:52]
Jesse Michaels
Pilate was the one who said, who are you? And he said, I'm the king of the Jews. Or he said, you, you said you're the king of the Jews. You said that. I didn't say that.
- [129:59]
Randall Carlson
Right, that's.
- [130:00]
Jesse Michaels
Yes, he was the governor.
- [130:01]
Randall Carlson
Pontius Pilate was the governor, yes. Okay, so the centurion went and prodded Jesus to see if there was any response to know if he was still alive. Now, I think what I would rather do is I am planning to put a lot of this out there at some point, probably early next year. Threads of this have been around for a long time. This is nothing new.
- [130:26]
Jesse Michaels
Brian Morescu believes this as well. He's the author of the Immortality Key and he believes that maybe this was some sort of mystery ritual where like, you know, you have the guy with the water jug or whatever who's coordinating this. Yes, this whole, the whole Last Supper feels very coordinated, right?
- [130:43]
Randall Carlson
Yes, it does.
- [130:43]
Jesse Michaels
And they're sitting and, you know, you have the 12 disciples and then he drinks this hyssop or whatever, this drink. And maybe it's similar to the kekion in the Eleusinian mystery rituals. Martin Luther King actually wrote a very interesting essay called the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis about basically, you know, or was about the pagan continuity hypothesis, you know, pagan and Greek influence on early Christianity. And so, like, maybe these mystery rituals took place.
- [131:14]
Randall Carlson
Oh yeah. I mean, the archetype of the death and resurrection of the divine king precedes Christianity by millennia. And to me, that's. And again, I'm not going to make any final definitive statements. I think we need to be open to. Well, like we talked about earlier, outrageous ideas. One outrageous idea might be that Jesus didn't die on the cross like you said, and that there was a lot more to the story going on behind the scenes. And I think that one could make a plausible case for that just by referencing to some of the things you just named. And it's, it's very instructive. If you go through the Gospels and you pick out the details, you can make a case that there is definitely something going on behind the scenes. And this thing was that it was. The whole ritual was pre planned for some reason. Okay, now that what that reason would be, that would be speculative.
- [132:23]
Jesse Michaels
There was like an upstairs and a downstairs as well. Right in this house.
- [132:27]
Randall Carlson
Yes. The Last Supper was. And of course, you know, then that brings us into the realm of the Grail, because the chalice from which they all drank at the Last Supper, that is the Grail. And then that was the chalice that Joseph of Arimathea collected, the blood of Christ when he was removing him from the cross, and it was sealed in the form of a siborium, and that was transferred to England. And when Joseph of Arimathea arrived in England, he met up with Arviragas, the pagan chieftain, who then granted him 120 hides of land as the sacred precinct where he would establish the first Christian church, according to legend. And so there's a whole story there that brings the Grail mythos into this whole question. And then, you know, then what happens is it gets convoluted there because we're getting. As soon as we get into the realm of the Grail, now we're in this realm that's very much like trying to make sense out of a dream.
- [133:40]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that Jesus had a bloodline and he had kids?
- [133:44]
Randall Carlson
Well, then that's one of the hypotheses, that if he did survive, he could have generated a bloodline. And again, there's circumstantial evidence that points in that direction, but we don't have what could qualify in my mind as definitive proof.
- [134:01]
Jesse Michaels
What's the circumstantial evidence?
- [134:04]
Randall Carlson
Well, traditions, like, particularly the origin of the Merovingian king line in France, possibly. I mean, because that was part of the.
- [134:13]
Jesse Michaels
The lore was that he escaped to the forest in France, right, With Mary. Mary Magdalene.
- [134:18]
Randall Carlson
I'm not familiar with that. Now, Mary Magdalene, according to some traditions, did travel with Joseph of Arimathea, and she disembarked at the place that is now Marseilles. And, I mean, Marseille is named after Mary. That's where it gets its name.
- [134:34]
Jesse Michaels
And so, okay, these bloodlines. So, you know, the kings of France. What other possible, you know, evidence do we have or just lore, mythology do we have around this?
- [134:45]
Randall Carlson
Well, most of it that I know of is mostly like, traditions, legends, hearsay, that kind of stuff.
- [134:53]
Jesse Michaels
Okay.
- [134:54]
Randall Carlson
I don't know. You know. Well, there's a possible way that we could determine or. Now that gets us to the Shroud of Turin.
- [135:07]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, I was just gonna. That's crazy. You're bringing that up. I was just gonna ask you about the Shroud of Turin. Can you tell the audience what the Shroud of Turin is?
- [135:13]
Randall Carlson
Well, it appears to be a burial cloth with an image of a man on it and a man looks like he's been tortured. And all of the wounds are 100% consistent with the wounds described in the Passion in the Gospels. You know, the nails through the wrists, the crown of thorns, the piercing of the side, the whipping of the back, all of that, the holds in the feet. What was interesting about the Shroud is that, you know, it was originally, you know, it first showed up in history with the nephew of. I think it was Geoffrey de Charny, who was the last Grand Master of the Templars.
- [136:02]
Jesse Michaels
No, Jacques de Molay was, but Geoffrey de Charnay was his associate.
- [136:07]
Randall Carlson
Who.
- [136:07]
Jesse Michaels
What they were. Associate. Jacques de Molay was the last Grandmaster of the Templars, I think.
- [136:12]
Randall Carlson
Well, yeah, he was the last. Well, so Geoffrey de Charny was the last.
- [136:15]
Jesse Michaels
The second to last. Yeah, yeah.
- [136:17]
Randall Carlson
Okay, got it. So it was his nephew that had the Shroud in his possession. And I'm a little vague on how that it ended up in the. In the. In Turin, but it went through a succession of owners and it finally ended up in Turin. And where it still is in the.
- [136:40]
Jesse Michaels
Repository there, wasn't it studied by NASA, like a piece of the fabric? And it was sort of.
- [136:45]
Randall Carlson
Well, it's been studied by a group of scientists several times since they finally.
- [136:50]
Jesse Michaels
And they said they debunked it or whatever they said, you know, so. But you have some interesting takes on this, right? About its actual veracity.
- [136:58]
Randall Carlson
Yes. Again, no definitive final proof, but I think we can show where the debunking was actually not a debunking, where at least the first. The early ones in the 80s when they first did the analysis. Now, there have been several things that have been done, scientific studies that have been done since that first one that was approved by the Vatican. I'm not up to speed on what the results of those were, but it does appear that they contradicted some of the debunking claims. But going through the debunking claims, I could actually, I think, show you where I think the debunking went wrong. I couldn't do that without preparation. I mean, because I haven't really looked at the Turin Shroud thing for at least 10 years. But. And I know there's been some additional studies on it which I haven't followed up on, but I have a very. I have a pretty comprehensive mass of material on the Shroud and the testing that was done in the 80s and early 90s. So maybe sometime we could do an interview based pretty much on that.
- [138:11]
Jesse Michaels
That would be great, but maybe give us a little teaser on where the conventional debunks were wrong.
- [138:18]
Randall Carlson
For one thing, it came in. Which part of the shroud did they actually test? Because there were several repair jobs that were done to it. And so you have several pieces of cloth that were much younger than the original piece of cloth. So if you test that instead of the original piece of cloth, obviously you're going to get a much younger date.
- [138:39]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting. And so why do you think there was some sort of incentive to debunk this thing? You think they were bad faith actors? And so what, what is that to kind of.
- [138:49]
Randall Carlson
Because whoever the image was, and of course the claim is that it was painted on there by an artist. And I kind of don't like to put out vague generalities without getting into the precise specifics, because that's how science works. You can't just say, well, this may have happened, that may have happened. You have to actually be precise and you have to come up with definitive evidence and lay out your chain of reasoning and the evidentiary support for that chain of reasoning, which in a casual conversation, obviously we don't do. Like, if we were going to. If we were to do a discussion about the shroud, I would review all of my notes. We would have some graphics, some images to look at and so on. But let me put it this way. I think it boils down to this. If that was not a painting, and I think that we can make a very strong case that it was not painted on there by an artist, if it is some kind of a photographic image, you know it's a negative. Right. You knew that. So if that was taken over on a man wrapped in a shroud, the image of the man in the shroud, even though all of the wounds are consistent with the biblical description of the wounds of Christ, the man in the shroud was not a corpse.
- [140:13]
Jesse Michaels
Wow.
- [140:14]
Randall Carlson
The man in the shroud was living.
- [140:17]
Jesse Michaels
How do you know that?
- [140:18]
Randall Carlson
Well, several reasons.
- [140:20]
Jesse Michaels
What is dedication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona. We call him dae Dae for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge, and there's this huge response to responsibility and making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together, we did a good job. That's dedication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the u. S. Department of health and human services and the ad council.
- [140:49]
Randall Carlson
The main reason is this. This is how the arms were folded. Right? Now, if you've got a corpse laying super horizontal and there's no heartbeat, all of the blood pools up in the bottom of the body. It doesn't flow out, right. The highest points of the wrists, blood has been flowing out the feet, the blood is flowing. You can tell from the shroud that the blood from the wounds was flowing, which means that the heart was pumping, which means that the individual was not a corpse, but a living body. There's also evidence in the original Greek of the scriptural evidence itself, in the words that are being used to describe, and I'm not going to get into that right now, but I would want to have those words in front of me and then show you then the meaning of these words that are used, which imply, again, the same thing, that this was a living being, a living man. But in the Christianized version, Joseph of Amerithea took the grail cup, which was the cup used at the Last Supper, right by Christ and the disciples, and from the wound in Christ's side, he caught the blood and the water issuing forth, sealed that as a siborium with a cover on it, and then, according to legend, transported that to England, where he met up with the pagan chieftain Arviragos, who bequeathed to Joseph and his 12 followers or disciples 120 hides of land. And a hide of land is 120 acres, traditionally in Britain. And that was established to be the sacred precinct. At the center of the sacred precinct, again, according to legend, a small circular church was built that was just under 40ft in diameter, and it was built out of wattles, which were sort of almost like woody vines or something. So it was built and that chapel was maintained for a long time and then eventually fell into ruin, as was replaced by another circular chapel that maintained the dimensions of the original and that eventually decayed. And then in the 10th century, I believe it was, an abbey was built there, where the width of the abbey was the same as the diameter of the original circular chapel that fell into ruin and it was replaced by Glastonbury Abbey. There was a chapel built on the west end of Glastonbury abbey, dedicated to St. Mary. Now, whether that was Mary Magdalene or the Virgin Mary, could be either one. It's called St. Mary's Chapel. Its width of 39.6ft, it is said, preserves the diameter of the original chapel. Now, the 12 hides of 120 acres each, that meant that the sacred precinct was 1,440 acres, and 1440 is one of the key Numbers in the whole sacred canon of numerical cosmology, you know, there was 144 cubits in the wall, the circular wall around the holy city. There was 144,000 who were the redeemed of the earth, which I take to be.
- [144:38]
Jesse Michaels
Isn't that the latitude of the pyramids too?
- [144:41]
Randall Carlson
I think the latitude of the pyramids is close to 30 degrees.
- [144:47]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, never mind.
- [144:48]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, so I think that the 144,000 could refer to the 144,000 that are going to save this planet from self destruction. If we can get 144,000 of us that are committed to that work, which is the great part of the great work of our time, we will be able to have a future without being sent back to the dark ages and struggling to survive for another few millenniums.
- [145:23]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, you'll be in that. So I want to shift gears to Atlantis. The story of Atlantis came from Solon who was Plato's great uncle. Is that right? Or great grandfather.
- [145:36]
Randall Carlson
I think great uncle. I mean in the lineage I believe it was Solon to Drought Dropidus to Critias the elder, to Critias the Younger, who then presented the story at the Socratic Forum.
- [145:49]
Jesse Michaels
At the Socratic Forum in Athens. And so, and Solon got it from Egyptian priests.
- [145:55]
Randall Carlson
Sonches, I think was the name, Was it Krantor who gave the name? I don't remember, but yeah.
- [146:01]
Jesse Michaels
And there's a guy named Jimmy Corsetti who was just on Rogan. And you know Jimmy, haven't met him.
- [146:10]
Randall Carlson
Personally, but we've had some great interaction over, you know, digital, digital things. Yeah.
- [146:18]
Jesse Michaels
And so he's presented a theory that maybe Atlantis existed in the, the Richat territory of Mauritania, of Mauritania in Africa. And you, I know I've talked to you about this many times for, for years, have a different theory about maybe an area in the mid Atlantic Ridge that is currently underwater.
- [146:39]
Randall Carlson
And I still hold to that. And I, you know, I've looked at Jimmy's stuff and here's what I would say about Jimmy's stuff is that he's done some really interesting work there with the recap structure. There are some, some, some parallels that are quite striking. However, when you break it down and take Plato's detailed accounts, I don't think it applies to the recap structure. And in my presentation that I've done again that people can get online, I forgot what we're charging for it. It's pretty affordable, but they can Download like an 8 or 9 hour, 3, 2 part 3 part lecture where I break it all down and I do devote like probably an hour anyway to an analysis of the reshat structure. I think it's recat. But what I do say is that according to again in my lecture what I do is I go, okay, what if we just took Plato's details literally? Do they hold up under what we now know about oceanography, geology, marine geology, astronomy, geography, etc. Does it hold up? Is there a consistency there? And I've read a lot of books on Atlantis and the many places it's been proposed. And in every single case you have to change the details. Plato's account, let's say that you accept the island of Terra and the Santorini eruption was the story behind Atlantis. Well, this happened 900 years before Plato. So the assumption is as well, Plato made a mistake by a whole order of magnitude in dating. You have to change something. You know, it's been proposed to be southern England, Cuba, Turkey, Antarctica, the list goes on and on.
- [148:33]
Jesse Michaels
North America.
- [148:34]
Randall Carlson
North America. Yes, America.
- [148:36]
Jesse Michaels
Graham Hancock sort of implied that in America before.
- [148:39]
Randall Carlson
Well, here's what I would say. If we take Plato's account as being legitimate to some extent. He's describing a mid Atlantic island based empire with sophisticated maritime and navigational skills. Well, right there you have the, the possibility of there being colonies all over the damn place. Northwestern Africa would seem like a very obvious place to have outliers, have colonies. So.
- [149:17]
Jesse Michaels
But why do you think, why is it your base case that it is there in the center of the Atlantic and not the result?
- [149:24]
Randall Carlson
Well, that's what I get. Yeah. And that's why it took me eight or nine hours. Explain.
- [149:30]
Jesse Michaels
Turn that into two minutes, Randall.
- [149:33]
Randall Carlson
Because during an ice age world that was one of the most favorable places on the planet for a civilization to evolve. That's why. For many reasons. But you know our good friend, our dear friend Rob Reinhart that recently visited at Labrador, you know, I was hoping maybe we could persuade him to talk a little bit about. But I don't think he wants to. So we're not going to go impose upon Rob at this time. What we'll do is we'll just talk about him as if he wasn't sitting right over there.
- [150:08]
Jesse Michaels
I like that. Let's do it. I actually don't like Rob.
- [150:13]
Randall Carlson
You don't?
- [150:14]
Jesse Michaels
Oh shit.
- [150:19]
Randall Carlson
So anyways, I was really excited here that our mutual friend Rob recently visited the Azores.
- [150:27]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [150:28]
Randall Carlson
And I think the implication of that is Rob is now going to be integral to this Azore's expedition. Azores tour that has kind of been sort of germinating for a couple of years now.
- [150:44]
Jesse Michaels
Let's go.
- [150:44]
Randall Carlson
Is that possible, Rob? All right, he's not gonna speak, but he, everybody, he is nodding his head.
- [150:50]
Jesse Michaels
He's nodding his head. Well, yeah, we should, we should, I would love to get, we should do a follow up where we go to the Azores. That sounds great. Well, so it was sort of climate wise, it was just optimal. That's the reason that you think it's there. There any other?
- [151:02]
Randall Carlson
Oh yeah, multiple reasons.
- [151:04]
Jesse Michaels
So that's number one. Give me the super high level summary. I know it's annoying because you have so many facts in your head. Super high level it is. From a climate perspective, it's optimal. What else? Number one? Number two.
- [151:16]
Randall Carlson
Well, I mean, okay, so what I talk about in the, in the, in the eight or nine hours is how isostatic adjustment shows that, that a large port, that what we're seeing now, those islands are the tops of mountains sunk in mountains.
- [151:32]
Jesse Michaels
Interesting.
- [151:33]
Randall Carlson
And I get into the, I get into the evidence for that. I mean I show that, you know, the, the dredging of the ocean floor, the core samples, the findings, the, of submerged shorelines and things. There's a very strong case because the.
- [151:47]
Jesse Michaels
Map looked entirely different. Yeah, it's like the map of Piri Reis where you have sort of tropical parts of Antarctica that are shown, you.
- [151:57]
Randall Carlson
Know, at the top, the Orontius Phineas that shows parts of Antarctica. Yeah, I mean, and Graham makes the case that's never been refuted, which is that this knowledge of geography comes from some past culture that had, had the ability to navigate the world.
- [152:15]
Jesse Michaels
Okay, so optimal climate for living, number one. Number two, well, now you've got these.
- [152:22]
Randall Carlson
Mountain stretches because you're strategically poised where you've got access to Africa, Europe, North America and South America, so all the land masses. So now if you're interacting with people, resources, all of these kinds of things, you're strategically placed where you've got fairly regular access. I mean literally it took what, Columbus, six weeks to sail?
- [152:47]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [152:47]
Randall Carlson
All right. That means that if you're poised on a large island or island complex in the mid Atlantic, your three weeks of sailing to Africa and Europe. Three weeks of sailing to north and South America.
- [153:00]
Jesse Michaels
Yep.
- [153:00]
Randall Carlson
And now you've got access to all of those resources.
- [153:04]
Jesse Michaels
It's pretty awesome.
- [153:05]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. It seems to me that for multiple reasons that would have been an ideal place for a civilization to evolve when sea levels were lowered by 400ft and the Mid Atlantic Ridge was probably 1,000 to 2,000ft higher than, than it is now.
- [153:22]
Jesse Michaels
A lot of esoteric traditions talk about involution as opposed to evolution. And there are rumors that maybe in the past, in past civilizations, hominids have been giant and we found sort of possibly giant bones. Graham Hancock has talked about this.
- [153:41]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [153:41]
Jesse Michaels
What say you?
- [153:43]
Randall Carlson
Well, I would say that I've never seen a giant skeleton myself, but I've taken some pretty deep dives into some of the, actually archival stuff. You know, the Emory Library, where I used to do a lot of research, has an Incredible collection of 19th century writing, state archives and records of, you know, early archaeological Bureau of the American Ethnological Society, the early Smithsonian papers. There's an incredible, incredible wealth of stuff in there. And in fact, in one of my presentations, which I've not yet presented in a public forum, I pulled a lot of that stuff together. The excavations particularly associated with the monumental earthworks, giant skeletons, those accounts are repeated over and over and over again that in the excavation there's a giant skeleton dug up sometimes 7ft, sometimes 8, sometimes even 9ft in height. Now these accounts, of course, the skeptics say all these were just hoaxes and made up and, you know. Yeah, maybe in some cases, yes, but look, there was no Internet. So for somebody to get, you know, 10,000 likes, if they went and said that they discovered a, you know, it's going to be Dr. So and so and Rev. So and so that's out there excavating with, with a group of local townspeople witnessing the excavation and they dig up an eight foot skeleton. I'm just not buying that you can just dismiss that and throw it out of hand with a hoax.
- [155:17]
Jesse Michaels
Well, if you think about the trajectory of mankind now, it feels like we're moving from, you know, if we were wolves in the past, we're turning into dogs and we're being domesticated, firm counter to testosterone. So on a human kind of body, hormonal level and then, and then probably size of body as well. It's like this has become vestigial. We're not hunter gatherers anymore. That's not being selected for anymore. And so do you think. Yeah, I mean, you think about sort of these, these possible large hominid creatures in the past. And then there are a lot of traditions that talk about demigods, titans. You know, in the book of Enoch you have watchers that, you know, mated.
- [155:58]
Randall Carlson
There were giants in the earth in those days.
- [156:00]
Jesse Michaels
Giants in the earth. Do you ascribe to possibly, you know, any of the theories that ancient alien astronauts might have come down co mated with mankind and we are their descendants.
- [156:15]
Randall Carlson
That's kind of a sticky question.
- [156:18]
Jesse Michaels
Well, let me just say I think about every human and there's something very depraved about them. You know, it's like we're very ape like in some ways and then we do have sort of this divine spark in other ways. We feel wholly separate from the rest of the animal kingdom and yet also sort of a part of it. And so I've wondered about, you know, this theory as a possible way to.
- [156:39]
Randall Carlson
Explain perhaps, you know, I'm very open minded. I certainly don't sit here and claim I've got final answers on all of this stuff. I, you know, I don't know if I can't even say that. I wish I did because half the fun of life is figuring this stuff out. The journey of discovery, the mystery. But I do think that as you go along and you think about this, you study, you learn, you meditate, you contemplate, you do discover answers to some of the questions. There are mysteries and then there are greater mysteries and lesser mysteries. The ultimate mystery. I don't know, I tend to be agnostic about that. I will say in a more pragmatic sense though, that when we go back to the late Ice age, when we go back to the late Pleistocene, I mean, my God, look. The imperial mammoth stood 16ft tall at the shoulder. The American Pleistocene lion was the size of a horse. You know, glyptodonts were armadillos the size of Volkswagen Beetle. Cars of golf carts, you know, I mean, the list goes on. They, the giant cave bear, the Ursus speleas, the bear that stood 6ft tall at the shoulder and 12ft tall when it stood up on its hind legs. There were giants, right? If there were all of these giant. The Irish elk with 10 and 12 foot antler spans, for Christ's sakes, eight foot tall at the shore. Can you imagine encountering one of those things? Talk about an impressive beast there. But if you had all of these mammalian megafauna oversized compared to today, why not people?
- [158:19]
Jesse Michaels
Well, also, how would you survive in that context if you weren't mega sized?
- [158:22]
Randall Carlson
You know, you had to be awful smart.
- [158:24]
Jesse Michaels
You had to be awful smart. And then you have all this megalithic architecture that 10, 20, 30 ton blocks.
- [158:29]
Randall Carlson
And I think that that gets us into the technological discussion. And because of the things that I've been learning lately, I think I'm honing in on what that technology was that they were using. And we could do another discussion on that to Attempt to do that now would be premature because there's still holes in my game and I don't necessarily have all the pieces together, but my instincts tell me that, yeah, we have to be looking at these plasmoid technologies could provide the answer to things like levitation of large stones.
- [159:04]
Jesse Michaels
It's interesting. I mean, an area I've always been interested in is this study of parapsychology, which is, you know, the idea that there's some sort of mind over matter effect. And to be honest, it's a very poorly assembled group of people and work and it's often not rigorous. And it was definitely marginalized and it was chronically sort of underfunded and didn't really go anywhere. And there were sort of scaling problems to it. It was hard to sort of instrumentalize. And yet if you look at some of those albeit somewhat small scale studies, I'm convinced, if you look at the actual data, that there is a weak mind over matter effect and the ability to cultivate that maybe. That's an interesting question. Can that be cultivated? And there are biblical references to things like that. Maybe Jesus was the ultimate parapsychology practitioner.
- [160:03]
Randall Carlson
Have you ever had a. What you would think of as a parapsychological experience?
- [160:07]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, definitely, yeah.
- [160:10]
Randall Carlson
Something you talk about or.
- [160:12]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, I've had many.
- [160:15]
Randall Carlson
I haven't had many. I've had a few.
- [160:19]
Jesse Michaels
Well, parapsychological. I mean, I've seen UFOs, so I don't know if that's per. I think that it could be.
- [160:26]
Randall Carlson
I think on one level maybe there is a parapsychological component to the UFO phenomenon.
- [160:31]
Jesse Michaels
I think there absolutely is. But then as far as like seeing, you know, something levitate or something, you know, like, you know, engaging in telekinetic powers or. I've had some weird. Okay, yes. The parapsychological stuff I've experienced is calling things very early, like predicting things in bizarre ways, not even coming from my conscious and intellectual mind. But it's like it gets zapped into me and I, I experience like a premonition or something.
- [160:59]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [160:59]
Jesse Michaels
Which I think a lot of people have experienced.
- [161:01]
Randall Carlson
Yes, I have too. I've had a few things that have been, you know, you could dismiss them as coincidence. I think When I was about 9, 18 or 19, my best friend from high school that I worked with and his older brother were out somewhere and I was home sleeping and I had this intense dream that they were in trouble and got busted to the point where it woke me up and it was about 2am and the next morning I go to call my friend and I couldn't get a hold of him. And it turns out that at 2am him and his brother got busted for dope and they were sitting in jail. Now how the hell that always struck me. That was bizarre that I actually had this dream. It woke me up and then I oh, that was just a dream. I went back to sleep. And then the next day I find out that literally right around the time I had that dream and woke up, they had gotten pulled over and got busted for dope.
- [162:01]
Jesse Michaels
Well, it's interesting. Scientists are now saying that quantum computers can send information back in time. And we know that there's temporal non locality and entanglement. You know, if you have photon A and photon B, if you measure photon A and the future, it affects photon B in the past, which is pretty awesome and interesting. And so maybe, you know, there's this concept of the long body and you know, we experience anamnesis when we're ported into the limited prism of our physical body. And maybe we can glitch into the long body and access our almost. It's almost like pre memory, our future cognitive knowledge, our future state through some sort of quantum system, which is very interesting. And you know, people have tried to find, you know, literal physical analogs or fit physical explanations for what could be that quantum sensor. And there's a guy named Stuart Hameroff who thinks that it's the microtubules in the brain. And I don't know if that's exactly right, but that could explain some of this sort of the premonition stuff.
- [163:09]
Randall Carlson
I think that's. I would agree with that.
- [163:13]
Jesse Michaels
To me it's obvious that the human brain and body is not a classical computer. And people like Turing, who've suggested that in the past, I think you're sending people into a cul de sac with this whole AI thing.
- [163:24]
Randall Carlson
This leads me into the whole concept of quantum entanglement, that somehow there is this something that there's some level that transcends time and space as we know it. Interestingly, this seems to be one of the implications that is coming out of plasma physics when you're dealing with things on the atomic and subatomic level. And this is something I'm very much in the infancy of learning about. But I showed you the slideshow that I put to you, 240 slides over the last three months to help me. Well, it's doing two things. One, it's. It served for me to learn about the system, the methodology, the philosophy, the Ideas, but it's also going to be used to present by the leading scientists of this system to various entities around the world that have already shown an interest in implementing the technology.
- [164:27]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that the military industrial complex is hiding any knowledge around fundamental parapsychology? And the reason I ask. Probably the reason I ask is because Ben Rich, who is the head of Lockheed Skunk, works on his deathbed, said, we have the ability to go to the stars whenever we want and we've built it. And a journalist asked him, well, how do we do that? And he goes, well, have you heard of esp? And the journalist goes, yes. And then he goes, well, that's how. And then there's a guy named Bob John, who was a plasma physicist who worked at Boeing, who then went on to run the Princeton Paralab, the parapsychology lab. And so I think about that connection as well, you know, where he's working at Boeing and then on plasma, and then he goes on to work on sort of parapsychology. And I wonder if there is an interesting connection there. And I think about the modern UFO story, and it's usually trying to push people away from thinking about parapsychology and towards more kind of nuts and bolts, materialist, reductionist explanations of how the craft works. And in fact, a lot of people say when the crafts crash, there's nothing inside the craft, so there must be an interface between the mind of the occupants of the craft and the craft itself. And so it has to be somewhat parapsychological from that perspective. I think it's parapsychological from the viewer's perspective of the craft as well. And it feels like that's the thing that's been stigmatized and marginalized. You know, you don't want people thinking about parapsychology. You'd rather them think about, you know, speed of light limits and physics.
- [166:10]
Randall Carlson
Right. Which takes us into a realm that's probably beyond our. Our time frame tonight.
- [166:21]
Jesse Michaels
Wow. Well, let's eat because we're gonna miss dinner and we gotta. We gotta go to your restaurant and I'm getting hungry.
- [166:26]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, I've worked up an appetite.
- [166:28]
Jesse Michaels
Same man? Yeah. Randall Carlson, Jesse Michaels. This is the best opening of all time, man. It's an honor just to speak with you. I consider you're a really good friend at this point. We always have amazing phone conversations.
- [166:42]
Randall Carlson
We do. I think. I consider you a good friend as well.
- [166:45]
Jesse Michaels
Well, thanks, man. We need more people like you in the world. Two years ago, I went to Decatur, Atlanta, and we did an Interview. We did a sit down and I felt like I was kind of low energy. And we never put it out. But it was like this amazing two hour thing. And a lot of it was around how the Moon is possibly this anomalous, like alien spacecraft.
- [167:04]
Randall Carlson
Well, now you're giving away secrets, but it's okay, she's an insider.
- [167:08]
Jesse Michaels
So we were talking about how the Moon might be this anomalous, you know, object because it's 1/400 the size of the Earth, but it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the Sun. The conventional explanation for how it formed, that an asteroid hit the Earth and it formed this perfect, you know, sphere you never see the dark side, sort of just rotates around us. And then there are all these sort of ancient myths that involve a pre Moon period. Right. And the Moon actually kind of settled the tides or whatever, pre younger Dryas period. So I thought. And then you found some really interesting anomalies when it comes to the Moon as well, right?
- [167:44]
Randall Carlson
Oh yeah. I don't necessarily think that there is a record of humans witnessing a time when there was no moon. There could have been a time that there was no moon. If we accept the capture theories, which was one of the three dominant theories up until the impact theory gained dominance. We had the capture theory, the sister theory and the daughter theory. Those were the three. All three of them have problems. But the capture theory has the idea there is, you know, you have to, somehow it's coming from somewhere else and it gets trapped into this orbit around the Earth. But the capture window is so small, you know, it'd be almost like we're trying to shoot a dime that's a mile away with a rifle, something like that. I mean, the capture window is extremely small. And it's because of the mathematical problems that that theory has not gained much credibility. But what they did is they kind of combined several theory theories that you had in order to get the chemical ratios and the isotopic ratios and the differences between the Moon and the Earth's composition and the similarities. That was essentially the problem. So you had to concoct up this theory that it was hit by a large object, maybe as big as Mars, and that would have caused this spewing out into space of all of this debris. And then eventually the, this debris would have formed a ring around the Earth and then it would have consolidated into the Moon that we see today. I have seen, and I'm certainly not prepared to get into the technicalities of it, but I've seen some pretty Exhaustive treatments of the mathematics of just that. And it's extremely challenging to get from a ring of debris around the Earth to the moon that we see today.
- [169:42]
Jesse Michaels
Yep.
- [169:43]
Randall Carlson
It's one thing to say, okay, here's a big impact. Stuff gets thrown out, forms a ring. Okay. But now to get to. From that ring to the moon that we have today with all of its unique features, that gets problematic.
- [169:58]
Jesse Michaels
So how do we explain. Because it's amazing. You know, when you look into your work and Robert Baval's work, Graham Hancock, all these. All these people, Robert Schoch, John Anthony west, it seems very apparent that you have all this archaeology that's far older than we date it to, and that maybe the pyramids, for example, are much older than we think. Maybe the Sphinx at Giza. Actually, there's limestone water damage on it. There's erosion on it, which would imply not this desert, you know, temperature. And so what do you think about when they were built? Like, is there. Is there sort of a positive version of that theory? Because I think what I find frustrating is it's clear, the negative thing is clear. It's clear that archaeology is wrong and that our history is much older than meets the eye. But can we actually date any of these things? Obviously, you can't date stone, but can we approximate when these things were built and what society built them?
- [170:59]
Randall Carlson
Well, one thing you can do, though, with stone is you can use luminescence dating, which I'm not going to try to get into a technical explanation of how that works. But basically, if you have a piece of stone, like let's say in the Sphinx, you've got this body of the Sphinx, and then you've got this. It literally was a quarry around it. Right. Have you been there?
- [171:21]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Yeah.
- [171:22]
Randall Carlson
Okay, so you know then that the. The Sphinx is actually. The body of the Sphinx is below the grade of the ground level, the head is above. But if you look at those walls. Right. So before those stones were quarried, that was all underground and it was not accessible by cosmic ray bombardment. However, once you've removed the rocks and exposed it to the air, to the sun, to the air, to whatever. Now, the cosmic ray bombardment causes spallation, which creates isotopes, which then can be. By counting the isotopes, you can date it. And I'm not going to try to explain it all without a little bit of having prepared myself for it, but optically stimulated luminescent, you can date how long a stone has been exposed to the environment.
- [172:20]
Jesse Michaels
That's interesting.
- [172:21]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. So I. I don't know why nobody, nobody is really under.
- [172:24]
Jesse Michaels
Have we dated any of these things? Like, not that I know of. Well, why don't we do that? We do. We have to figure that out. There is some sort of method that allows us to date. Because I think where, you know, I love all the people I just mentioned, but, like, where you can poke holes with Graham Hancock is, or any of these people's work is. It's clear these things are older, but when can you date them to and when exactly were they built? And if he's trying to win in his arguments against, you know, the Ministry of Culture and Hawaz and stuff, then, like, it's very important that, you know, they have sort of smoking gun proof. And if you can get that smoking gun proof, it would be great.
- [173:02]
Randall Carlson
Like, let's take the snakes, for example. I, I've been there, I've seen it. I've studied rock weathering, I've studied limestone weathering in the field. I'm convinced that it is water erosion. Well, then what you have to do is turn to other fields of science to determine when there would have been enough water to do the erosion. Erosion. See, the Sphinx itself, the body of the Sphinx has been subjected to these restoration campaigns. So the. Now there is, you know, are you looking at a original piece of the Sphinx or are you looking at a later part of a restoration campaign? You, you dispel all of that when you're looking at the Sphinx ditch. Right? Because nobody's done a restoration campaign against that west wall of the, of the Sphinx ditch. So what you've got there is pretty much the pristine erosion that happened after those blocks were removed. Right. And those blocks were removed using your, I imagine, typical, you know, separation trenches, cutting them loose, moving them out. And typically, if you look at a, at a quarry wall that has been even modern, that uses modern technologies and industrial processes to remove the box, you'll have this kind of stepped profile. And there's a lot of Old Kingdom quarries, limestone quarries along the Nile that are supposedly about the same age as the Sphinx. But you can look at the walls of them and you can literally pick out the chisel marks in the walls, the pick marks. And in the Sphinx ditch, you would assume that would be there, but there are places where the surface profile has been eroded back over 2ft. So you've had 2ft of limestone material removed. Now we go to another scientific discipline and we can look at climate change in Egypt, and we can tell, for example, not we, but the scientists that have been studying it can tell when there was like lots of rainfall in Egypt and there was. This has been documented independently by numerous researchers that there was copious rainfall during the transition out of the Ice age. And freshwater mussels and other remnants of animals that live in the Nile have been found 120 to 150ft above the present day floodplain of the Nile. So what that means is that that water, if it's 120 to 150ft above the modern floodplain, would easily submerge the Sphinx underwater. Now secondly, if you go to the east, back up, go to the west, you're looking at an upstairs gradient. There's evidence of massive hydraulic movements of water across that which would have also submerged the Giza Plateau. Now the dating of when that occurred is usually given as around 12,000 years. So I was already aware of that dating when I first encountered the work of John Anthony west, the late John Anthony west, who was basing his work upon an insight that he got from Schwaler de Lubitsch, who first proposed that the Sphinx was water eroded and therefore had to be much older than Old Kingdom Egypt because it's been desert there since Old Kingdom Egypt. What I did is I undertook studies of limestone erosion under all kinds of different environmental and energetic circumstances to try to determine various scenarios of how you, you know, the erosion of the Sphinx and the, the ditch, the quarry. I primarily focused on the quarry walls rather than the ditch itself for the reasons I explained earlier just a minute ago. And what I came up with was pretty amazing because, for example, gravestones have been, those are really useful for determining erosion rates of different kinds of rock. There are many, many gravestones that were like. See, the thing is, when you put that gravestone into the ground and it's the date of the person that died, well, that's the date at which that gravestone was now. So if you had it, 1850, somebody who died. I live next to a cemetery that has pre Civil War dates in it. And you can look at some of those gravestones and they're very eroded, some of them. You can't even read the inscriptions on them anymore. But so the idea is that if you have a gravestone, you put it in the ground. That date of death on that gravestone is going to be pretty much the date that that gravestone was now set out there and exposed. So, okay, well, if you, this was 1850 or 1870, whatever, you now can know how long this has been sitting in the environment, subjected to the rain and the wind. And the weathering. So that's one way you study. The other way is there have been, like on limestone cliffs that are next to a highly energetic intertidal zone where the surf, like you see out there, is washing up against the cliff. Okay, so let's say that. So here's what, what some researchers have done. They've come in, they've drilled a hole into the side of the cliff, and they've inserted a metal tenon into that hole, measured very, very carefully how much of that tenon is exposed out of the limestone cliff. And then have come back 10, 20, 30 years later and to see how much that the cliff face has recessed backwards and they can now get a recessional rate, an erosion rate. Another thing study that was done is like they took a one cube of freshly cut limestone and they put it on the roof of the Smithsonian Institution Institution and then begin to monitor its erosion over many decades. So now you've got a perfectly cut cube with square corners. Right. Now you come back in 10 years, what are you going to notice? Well, first thing you're going to notice is that the sharp corners are becoming rounded off. Right? That's the first thing that starts going. They become more and more round. And you can now estimate how much material has been removed in that particular environment. So now in the surf with. You've got this say, I remember one study, what it was, was it was sort of a collapse of rock into the. Into the ocean, and it exposed this freshly cut vertical rock face. So they came in there and they drilled that hole, they put the metal tenon, and they started monitoring over, literally over. Over decades and was determining, okay, here comes the rushing surf pounding against it. How quickly does that limestone erode? Back then another study was, all right.
- [180:35]
Jesse Michaels
I think we're good. I mean, Randall, I don't think anybody was expecting that level of thoroughness to my answer. I'm astounded. I almost wanted to let you keep going because you listed five studies about water damage on limestone, and I'm incredibly impressed. Can I just name one other piece of evidence?
- [180:52]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [180:52]
Jesse Michaels
If you look astronomically, you have the vernal equinox Leo at the time, the body of the Sphinx is a lion.
- [180:58]
Randall Carlson
Yes. Yeah.
- [180:59]
Jesse Michaels
And it seems like it was sort of retrofitted with this pharaonic headdress. And you have the book Hamlet's Mill, which talk about a lot of kind of ancient architecture aligning up kind of astronomically in these really amazing ways. And this is just probably another example, right?
- [181:17]
Randall Carlson
Yeah. Because I think you can go back. Well, I think didn't Baval and Hancock do sort of a dating based upon the fact of when the vernal equinox sunrise would have been, when the sphinx would have been looking directly at that?
- [181:32]
Jesse Michaels
I think it would have been around that time. Yeah, because around I think 12,000 BC or 13,000 BC.
- [181:38]
Randall Carlson
Right. When it was, I think it was.
- [181:39]
Jesse Michaels
10,500 BC specifically when the procession shifted. It's a 26,000 year cycle and true north changes because the Earth, you know, orbits on a wobble and.
- [181:51]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, and so the vernal equinox is now moving out of Virgo into Leo.
- [181:58]
Jesse Michaels
Yes.
- [181:59]
Randall Carlson
So now you would have had the Sphinx and beyond the Sphinx you would have had the profile of the lion.
- [182:07]
Jesse Michaels
So when I speak to Graham Hancock he says, you know, I don't think that a lot of this ancient architecture, you know, for example, he says that the pyramid was not a tomb and that this idea that it just enshrined, you know, this death chamber for the king and the queen and you have the king's shaft and the queen shaft is. He doesn't believe that. He thinks that it's almost this portal to another world. And it's interesting, right that the king's shaft lines up with Osiris, the queen's shaft lines up with Sirius, I believe. And then you have this just overall mapping to Orion's belt at the time. And then you have a lot of other astronomical alignment when it comes to architecture across the ancient world, whether it be, you know, the Aztecs or certain architecture we've found in Cambodia. So what do you think these and they seeing include a lot of the same symbology, geometric patterns and just building techniques it seems. What do you think the pyramids, just as an example were actually built for? What do you think their purpose was? You have the Christopher Dunn theory. You know, he went on Joe Rogan saying it was like this power generator. You have all sorts of theories. Is it this portal to the afterlife? What do you believe?
- [183:23]
Randall Carlson
Well, I don't have any really final beliefs on it. I'm still learning. You know, when I had, we had like a two and a half, three hour coaching session with Bob Green your yesterday and we got into that and I've got notes and I've got a recording of it and he's going to give me his slides. He's got a whole theory on it which I could not at this moment recapitulate. But next time we talk I will have digested it, I will have followed up the Various leads. I've got a list of papers to read. I do think, I do think that it had something to do with the generation of some kind of energy. And if I had to pick an energy, I would say plasma energy.
- [184:12]
Jesse Michaels
Why are you and Graham Hancock both so high containers? Conviction in the impact hypothesis, this idea that a comet from the torrid meteor stream, maybe there was some sort of air burst event and it wiped out civilization on Earth. There are other theories that the magnetosphere of the Earth weakened. There was, you know, maybe heightened solar activity, there was some sort of, you know, solar flare or, you know, maybe a calamitous volcano. There are various things, theories. What gives you conviction in the airburst type of.
- [184:44]
Randall Carlson
First of all, the proxy evidence is now overwhelming. You know, the idea was proposed, I proposed, I have it on record. I gave five lectures at Warren Wilson College in 1995. I believe it was where I basically talked about the Younger Dryas, the mass extinctions, the rapid climate change. And I say in my mind, the most likely trigger has got to be impacts of something from space. And I proposed a possible multiple impacts over the great ice sheets as being the trigger. Well, then in 2007, Richard Firestone and Allen west and a number of others came out with a paper, George Howard came out with a paper proposing exactly that. They didn't propose that it was the Taurid or connected with the Taurids. That came a little bit later. I think it was from Bill Napier over in the Astrophysical Observatory in England who first proposed it could have been the Taurids. But there is a mountain of evidence now in terms of proxies. By proxies we mean iridium spike, there's a platinum spike. There have been nanodiamonds found, copious nanodiamonds, microspherals that would have taken between 2 and 3,000 degrees centigrade to create magnetic grains, multiple proxies that are associated with these high energy hypervelocity images, impact events. That's what's pretty much convinced me because you now have like eight or 10 independent teams that have documented cosmic signatures at the lower Younger Dryas boundary. Now, I think that there's an abundance of.
- [186:42]
Jesse Michaels
What would an example of a cosmic signature be?
- [186:45]
Randall Carlson
Oh, well, a cosmic signature would be you excavate a core, ice core from Greenland and then you discover that there is a 12,900 year layer of glacial ice that has a spike of iridium in it hundreds of times greater than the background. Knowing that iridium is deposited on Earth by hypervelocity Impacts. That would be an example. Another example would be finding nanodiamond layers. The black mat layer, which I visited about three or four quarries now, where you can see the black mat layer exposed. And in that black mat layer, you've got. Typically at the bottom of it, you've got abundant nanodiamonds. And these nano diamonds can only form under extreme regimes of pressure and heat. And they're being found all over the world now.
- [187:44]
Jesse Michaels
Wow.
- [187:44]
Randall Carlson
Even in Antarctica.
- [187:46]
Jesse Michaels
Pretty incredible. Okay. This is going to be a. You. Were you going to say something?
- [187:50]
Randall Carlson
Well, yeah. So there's. There's multiple proxies. The other thing I would say is that there are studies that show that would suggest that episodes of intense volcanism can be triggered by hypervelocity impacts, that mass extinctions could be triggered by hypervelocity impacts, that extreme climate changes, like from a relatively temperate climate into a what's almost referred to as a cosmic winter, could also be produced by hypervelocity impacts, massive earthquakes. Now, we know that there were. And if we were looking at slides, I could pull up a slide and I could show you. Here are extreme flood events that occur, occurred during the catastrophic melting of the great glacial ice sheets. And sandwiched in those layers is thick deposits of volcanic ash.
- [188:48]
Jesse Michaels
Wow.
- [188:48]
Randall Carlson
Which shows us that during that process of deglaciation, there were massive volcanic eruptions going off around the world. There's evidence of seismic earthquakes that might have been like 10 on the Richter scale as a result of this rapid unloading. Because of the rapid melting of the ice sheet, you've now got trillions of tons of weight suddenly removed from the Earth's crust. You have this rebound that causes a redistribution of the magma reservoirs below the crust. And that can lead to seismic events, earthquakes, and so on. So we have earthquakes associated with. With deglaciation. We have volcanoes associated with hypervelocity impacts. I think that for the explanation of how do we. When the plan is in the full depths of a glacial age, you're talking about 5 or 6 or 7 million cubic miles of the ocean extracted out, deposited on the land over a period of maybe 10,000 years. Now it builds up. It's a mile and a half thick. Now imagine if we were suddenly transported back 14,000 years ago.
- [189:59]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [189:59]
Randall Carlson
That beach wouldn't be there. It'd be another 40 or 50 miles to the east, and you'd be sitting right there in forests, the same kind of forest that you now find up in Canada.
- [190:10]
Jesse Michaels
Wow.
- [190:10]
Randall Carlson
Right there. No beach there. You got to go.
- [190:14]
Jesse Michaels
Miami beach would look a Lot different.
- [190:16]
Randall Carlson
It would look a lot different.
- [190:18]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Well, that's amazing. And so volcanic activity, seismic activity, ice core sampling, all of these pieces of artifacts, of evidence would not be explained by any of the other things. So, you know, a lot of sun activity.
- [190:30]
Randall Carlson
I do think the sun had a role. I agree with Robert on that issue. I disagree that he's. I think he's too dismissive of impacts, although I think he's hedging a little bit. But I do believe the sun had a major role and there's.
- [190:45]
Jesse Michaels
What was the sun's rule?
- [190:46]
Randall Carlson
Well, the Sun's role is that we probably had these tremendous solar storms.
- [190:51]
Jesse Michaels
Do you know Matt Lacroix by any chance?
- [190:53]
Randall Carlson
Yeah, I know Matt.
- [190:54]
Jesse Michaels
So I just interviewed him and he said something very crazy that, honestly, I have trouble believing. He said that in the 90s through the pioneer mission that NASA did. It was, you know, his first deep space envoy. They were looking at these sort of orbital anomalies of Neptune and Jupiter. And they thought that given these orbital anomalies, they detected this, the presence of this 10th planet that was far, way, far out, like beyond the Kuiper Belt and beyond Pluto. And I found that hard to believe. But he was like, no, they found it. And then the crazier thing is he said they covered up the presence of this tenth planet because this planet was four to five times larger than the Earth. And it. To me, I mean, if this stuff, if this planet exists, it would make sense that it would be outside of the gravitational sphere of influence of the sun. Right. If it's that big. And he was saying that the only thing that made this planet made sense from a gravitational perspective is that we're in a binary star system and there is actually a dead star in our state star system that this. I know it sounds crazy, but it sort of dances around the sun and it creates these cyclical coronal mass ejections because when you get that sort of gravitational force, you know, coming towards the sun, that creates this, you know, CME event. The whole thing seemed beyond belief to me, but I wanted to see it.
- [192:23]
Randall Carlson
I don't have any opinion on that. I would. First thing I'd say is, Matt, I gotta look at your sources.
- [192:30]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, it was like, you know, a couple of, you know, decently well established astronomical publications and then, you know, these Caltech professors who seem like they had credentials, but I don't know.
- [192:42]
Randall Carlson
There have been wobbles detected in the outer planets and some of the speculation around those wobbles is some kind of a gravitational perturbation by some hypothetical larger object that we have not actually discovered other than indirectly through these gravitational perturbations. So that's been around. That idea has been around quite a while. I don't know if that's what he's referring to or if he's seen some data that I haven't seen. My first thing I would say I got to go to the sources. When I hear these things, I want to know the sources. Are they rigorously and robustly established or is it more speculative? And I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that.
- [193:31]
Jesse Michaels
How do you explain this is a huge non sequitur, but how do you explain the modern kind of alien or UFO phenomena and your sort of ancient civilization framework? Do you think that these are vestiges of a lost civilization and maybe remnant survivors of that civilization?
- [193:49]
Randall Carlson
Well, we've talked about that and I think that that should be one hypothesis that is investigated rigorously. I mean, I've immersed myself in mythology for decades and like today I was giving in the presentation I did at Apocalypse Hereticon. Thank you. Was that behind the flood myths from.
- [194:15]
Jesse Michaels
All over the world.
- [194:17]
Randall Carlson
There have been real floods that were really big, really huge. Could be described as biblical in scale. Okay, so if we take and go, okay, there was this. There are universal myths about these gigantic world destroying floods. And now science demonstrates to us that those were real. Then in my mind, oh, that's pretty awesome. So we have evidence now that one of the very most potent and universal of all myths, the great flood myths, had their origin in real phenomena. What about some of the others? Like the stories? If you look at. What other stories from around the world are as ubiquitous as the flood stories? Well, that would be the stories and the beliefs in gods. Right. And the gods are usually sky gods. And I think we could look at, in some cases, I think we could be transferring activity into heavens and.
- [195:24]
Jesse Michaels
Anthropomorphizing.
- [195:25]
Randall Carlson
Thank you. Anthropomorphizing these events in the sky, which could be.
- [195:31]
Jesse Michaels
Or the inverse. Or we're painting the past over with our modern kind of materialist epistemological brush. And maybe like a bull did come down and have sex with a waterfall and create a titan. You know what I mean? Like these weird, like myths. Like maybe they literally saw these things with their eyes and that was just consensus reality at that time.
- [195:50]
Randall Carlson
Well, I do think they literally saw it.
- [195:52]
Jesse Michaels
Like they would explain like, you know, storms and they would explain like waves and it was Jupiter or whatever we rationalize now.
- [196:02]
Randall Carlson
Sure. And I do think that they saw things and experienced things. And particularly, like, if we go back to, let's say we go back 5,000 to 8,000 years ago, when we know that the Taured media stream was a whole lot more active than now and that people would have witnessed on a regular basis these phenomena in the sky. I'll mention. And you know well about the, the 1908 Tunguska event.
- [196:29]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, of course.
- [196:29]
Randall Carlson
Okay. So. Well, one of the things that. One of the lessons we learned from that is the local people, the Tungusi people, they interpreted it as, as in the framework of their religious beliefs. So they believed that the event was caused by their God of fire, Agdi, coming down from heaven to punish them. So now, unless they lose that mythical connection because they all become college educated or something, what would happen is that this would be a story that would be perpetuated in a thousand years, 2,000 years from now, they would be talking about when the God Agdi came to Earth and set the earth on fire and did all this damage and so forth. Well, I think behind a lot of the things that have come down to us, myths, we could find that same kind of a phenomena going on that you would have cosmic events that are so overwhelming in their magnitude that it spawns religious response in people. Do I think that that's the full explanation for the idea of gods? No, I don't.
- [197:48]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [197:49]
Randall Carlson
And I think that there might be a confusion between these things because for one thing, let's get back to this point that, you know, from the scientific enlightenment to now is scarcely over 300, 400 years. Right. I mean, we're into the space age now. We're in the age of computers, now we're in the age of artificial intelligence, all within a few hundred years. Right. So now let's assume that we're talking about 2, 300 years of scientific development and we're looking at a span of time going back 200,000 years.
- [198:30]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [198:33]
Randall Carlson
How easily could a thousand or a few thousand or five or even ten thousand years of cultural development, scientific development, whatever you want to think of it, how easily could that be lost in the noise of 200,000 years?
- [198:48]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Nobody explains why, like human Homo sapiens have been roughly, physiologically or biologically the same for the last 200,000 thousand or 300,000 years. The idea that just at the very, you know, the tail end, 3 to 5% of that time we get culture, we get technology, we get all them, but we were just completely primitive during the entire, you know, rest of It. Yeah, I think that actually requires a greater leap in logic than the inverse than, say, I agree with you. And, like, you have these kind of Ray Kurzweil style, like, graphs where it's just like exponential technology or whatever, but it's total hubris like that. You know, we. Maybe we just don't. The field of archaeology is 200 years old, right? It's like. So it's like we found the ancient cities of, you know, Babylonia and Assyria or whatever in the early 1800s. And it's almost like a predictable law in archaeology that the deeper we go, the older stuff gets. And so, you know, it's almost like your base case guess should be that human civilization is actually much older than, you know, we would ever expect. So I completely agree with you. The question I have for you is, like, you're familiar with Erich Von Daniken, of course, Chariots of the Gods. So, like, you read that book, you read Zacharias Sitchin, you know, all this stuff around, you know, aliens coming down and, like, seeding culture and, like, it feels like they are crossing their T's or dotting the I's when the dot doesn't exist and the, you know, the cross doesn't exist. Like, they're. They're finishing a sentence that is incomplete. And so it's always tough. Like, I think the difference between kind of a huckster and like, a genius is like this error correction at the. You're filling in the gaps with, like, bs, right?
- [200:27]
Randall Carlson
Yeah.
- [200:28]
Jesse Michaels
And sometimes that happens. But it does feel like there's, like, a decent amount of evidence for star people or people from some other planet or like an advanced civilization transferring a lot of our modern wisdom into technology.
- [200:43]
Randall Carlson
And I think that's a hypothesis that definitely should be explored. I have suggested that we also consider the idea that at least one dimension of it or one facet of it, and that explains the whole phenomena because there's some wild stuff going on there when you start looking at the record of sightings and experiences of people who've witnessed these kinds of phenomena. But one is that we should consider the fact that we ourselves, our ancestors, if they were technologically advanced enough, could have left the planet. And there is some very interesting stories about, again, I mean, we could pull some of this up, but we chose not to do that this time. But some of the stories, like, for example, for example, the World Tree where the great catastrophe comes, and humanity climbs the world Tree, and, like, after the flood waters have receded, some of them climb back down to the Earth, to repopulate the Earth. But some of the other ones keep climbing into the higher branches that leads to the heavens. I mean, that's like a story that's a common motif that we run into. So what if there was a literal truth of some kind behind these stories like that? What if they're actually telling us. Well, yeah, there were some people who somehow were able to leave the place. Because if you knew the scale and extent of the Younger Dryas events, and if we knew that something like that was going to happen again, I can guarantee you there would be a scientific consensus that, well, if we want to preserve the species, we want to preserve civilization, we want to, you know, preserve our knowledge, our science, our industry, our art, all of that. When we don't know how extreme this is going to be, but we can speculate that it could be very extreme, we probably need to come up with some kind of a way of having a place of refuge. Huge.
- [202:48]
Jesse Michaels
Where would that be?
- [202:49]
Randall Carlson
Well, the most obvious one would be the moon.
- [202:52]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that ancient religions, like the esoteric versions of them, actually kind of comport and go together? Like, I think of, you know, in Merkabah, the Jewish, you know, kabbalistic tradition, you have like the seven hekalot, and then there are seven arete, you know, in the Egyptian tradition, and then you have the ziggurat and Sumeria has seven steps. Do you think a lot of these ancient traditions actually point towards these sort of celestial ascent practices that are actually somewhat consistent and move across history?
- [203:28]
Randall Carlson
Sure. I mean, there's got to be an explanation for why universally, you know, humans were so interested in the sky. What went on in the sky created these monuments to the sky. I think that there probably was a reason and it could be, let's say, commemorating the knowledge that there was once a science of celestial travel was still in existence, but the actual know how to do it had been lost.
- [204:03]
Jesse Michaels
Do you know the. The Air Force funded the movie Stargate where there's like a portal by the pyramid?
- [204:09]
Randall Carlson
I know, they funded it.
- [204:11]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, I always found that interesting.
- [204:13]
Randall Carlson
You'll have to excuse me, I might be reaching the end of my tether.
- [204:16]
Jesse Michaels
No, no, this is great. I appreciate your time, Randall, and I'm.
- [204:19]
Randall Carlson
Having a good time, but, yeah, I'm. I'm.
- [204:22]
Jesse Michaels
You got to go create a thunderstorm.
- [204:25]
Randall Carlson
We'll see what happens there. Yes.
- [204:27]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. So I hope you come, but we.
- [204:30]
Randall Carlson
Can certainly do this again. And next time, if you'd like, we could do. Give me a little advance notice and I'll do some preparation. We can. We can sit here and we can look at some slides and things and talk about what we're looking at.
- [204:40]
Jesse Michaels
That sounds good to me.
- [204:41]
Randall Carlson
Doesn't that sound fun?
- [204:42]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Thanks, man. Appreciate you, Jesse.
- [204:44]
Randall Carlson
It's always fun.