← American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
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- [00:00]
Andrew Gallimore
There's no way for you to visualize a five dimensional object in its true form, and yet when you smoke dmt, you do. It's an extremely intense experience. It's very fast and very, very short. It's not Terence McKenna implanting the idea of machine elves into people's brains. These are intelligent beings that go back thousands of years. They will perform beings like elves or harlequins or jokers and jesters, and they will displ impossible higher dimensional beautiful objects that kind of morph in front of your eyes. Can we show that we're actually interfacing with some kind of intelligence that is non human?
- [00:46]
Jesse Michaels
If a lot of people are seeing these architectures outside of their own reality and they're all consistent, that seems like it would be really important.
- [00:55]
Andrew Gallimore
If they want to communicate with us, they're going to do it through our brain.
- [00:59]
Jesse Michaels
Do you think that, like, elite members of society have been systematically accessing these other realms, helping to shape our reality?
- [01:07]
Andrew Gallimore
Oh, why don't we repurpose a technique from anesthesiology called TARGET controlled intravenous infusion, but with dmt. Whoa. So we send in mathematicians, you send in geometers or topologists, you send in linguists.
- [01:23]
Jesse Michaels
Whoa.
- [01:30]
Andrew Gallimore
Different parts of the brain have different activities. You know that, don't you? Maybe you should interview me.
- [01:49]
Unknown
Before we dive into today's episode of American Alchemy, I want to give a quick shout out to today's amazing sponsor, Ground News. All right, let me show you how I've actually been using this thing. Take this headline that's been all over my feed lately. Why MAGA can't move on from the Epstein files. Now, say what you want about the headline, but few stories cut closer to the core of power, secrecy and public amnesia than this one. This is where Ground News genuinely shines. It pulls in 141 different sources on just that story. You get a bird's eye view of what the mainstream media might be pushing. Like there are no Epstein files.
- [02:25]
Jesse Michaels
Stop asking.
- [02:26]
Unknown
And what independent outlets are suggesting? Like maybe Epstein was a global honeypot for secret science programs. Maybe he had financial leverage on all of our elites. Who knows? I choose to believe the latter, but maybe I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist. You also get this coverage bar showing who's reporting and who's mysteriously quiet. The bias distribution visualizes how each outlet frames the story, whether they're steering you toward a left or right narrative or ignoring the real questions altogether. The factuality meter helps you separate solid reporting from whatever half baked blog your Conspiracy cousin swears by, which, let's admit, in the UFO space. There's also a lot of bullshit circulating out there. And then there's the ownership tab, which shows you who's bankrolling each outlet. This, in my opinion, is the most important feature, whether it's a hedge fund, a media conglomerate, big pharma, or some other big corporation, Obviously, personally, I follow topics like UAPs and breakthrough science and breaking stories. Hit my Ground News feed without the algorithm shoving celebrity gossip or Reddit drama in my face. It's great. It's an amazing detox. If you want that kind of clarity, go to Ground News, Jesse Michaels. Michaels with no A for a limited time only. You can also find that in the description or hit the QR code on the screen. If you do that, you'll get 40% off the unlimited access vantage plan, the same plan that I use. Or you can gift it to someone who still thinks that Jeffrey Epstein just ran a hedge fund. Again, that's Ground News slash Jesse Michaels. Michaels with no. I only promote tools I actually use, and Ground News is one of them. Don't miss out on these important stories. Now, let's get back to the show.
- [04:09]
Jesse Michaels
Andrew Gallimore, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I have been a fan and follower of yours for a long time now. You've written a couple of great books that I'm aware of, Alien Information Theory. And you are coming out with Death by Astonishment, which is sort of an. Title is an homage to William burroughs or Terence McKenna. And I'm just really excited to talk to you because I feel like a lot of the alien stuff dovetails with psychedelics and psychedelic experiences, and I think a lot of people use that to sometimes discredit. The alien thing is objectively real. I think the psychedelic thing is. Is a really important part of, you know, our everyday waking epistemology, as I'm sure you would agree. And so I'm excited to dive into that with you.
- [04:58]
Andrew Gallimore
Fabulous. Good to be here, Jesse, in Austin, Texas.
- [05:01]
Jesse Michaels
Absolutely.
- [05:02]
Andrew Gallimore
My first time in Austin for all.
- [05:04]
Jesse Michaels
The way from Japan, which is. I was always like, you know, okay, I'll visit Andrew when I. When I go to Japan. I wanted to do a little Japan tour. So it's cool to thank you for coming out here.
- [05:13]
Andrew Gallimore
You're welcome.
- [05:14]
Jesse Michaels
Why don't we just start there, actually, with the kind of alien DMT connection. I was actually listening to you on my buddy Michael's podcast, Third Third Eye Drops, and you were talking about John Mat.
- [05:29]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Jesse Michaels
And alien abductions and How a lot of these alien abduction experiences really connect or seem to pattern match to what people experience on, on dmt?
- [05:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean they're not this the same, but really ever. Well, from the beginning of DMT research back in the DMT was discovered in 1956 by this Hungarian physician called Stephen Zara. This was when Hungary was a communist state. And from the very first study that he did, I mean at first he injected himself. I mean this was kind of the good old days of, of, of science when scientists injected new drugs into themselves. Yeah. So he discovered after injecting it into his, into himself that it was quite clearly very, very psychedelic. This kind of rush of highly complex geometric imagery that kind of overwhelmed him, seized control of him. So he knew then this was something special, something quite different to the drugs that were known at the time. Lsd, mescaline, psilocybin. This seemed to kind of transcend that and transport you to some alternate reality. So he started injecting with the drug into people, colleagues basically who worked at the same hospital. And even in those very first studies it was quite obvious that these individuals were not just being transported to other worlds, but these were populated worlds. And there were what seemed to be kind of intelligent beings, including little diminutive creatures, multitudinous creatures, lively beings that now we would recognize as elves or machine elves in Terence McKenna parlance. But when Rick Strassman picked up the mantle in the early 90s and he did a much larger study with 60 volunteers, various, various doses of DMT and a not insignificant number of these individuals reported experiences that would not raise an eyebrow if they'd appeared in books by John Mack. So kind of alien abduction type experiences where people are brought into some kind of highly sophisticated technological environment where there are beings, often a number of like orderlies, less senior beings who were kind of performing the work and you know, analyses and measurements, scanning and all this kind of stuff. And then often there was one like Top Dog who was kind of in the background but had a very strong presence kind of overseeing or supervising the procedure. And then they'd often be taken on kind of a tour of this craft or technological place, meetings with highly intelligent, highly advanced non human beings and then brought safely back into the normal waking world. And this, if you, this kind of scenario is precisely what John Max abductees or experiences he, as he used to call them were kind of reporting. So it didn't escape John Mack's attention and people were asking him, you know, have you heard about dmt? Because what you're what you're talking about sounds a lot like what people are reporting under the influence of dmt. And I think, you know, Rick Strassman also said, you know, if, if we removed all references to DMT and in many of the reports from my volunteers, would anyone be able to distinguish them from the reports of alien and abductees? And I think towards the end, you know, as, as John Mack progressed through his abduction career, if you want to put it like that, he, he was, he became less convinced that this was a purely physical nuts and bolts phenomenon where people were actually being removed from their, their beds at night and taken onto actual physical crafts. But he started to feel like this was some kind of non physical process. Yeah, these, many of his subjects reported going to alt environments that weren't, that didn't seem to be physical.
- [10:29]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [10:29]
Andrew Gallimore
So places that were, had kind of higher dimensional spaces, beings that were very similar to the types of beings that people encounter in dmt. So he, he kind of shifted towards a more spiritual or metaphysical or non physical explanation for these abduction experiences and.
- [10:51]
Jesse Michaels
A little context for the audience. John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department in the 90s and he was actually childhood friends with a guy named Bud Hopkins who was documenting a lot of these sort of abduction experiences. And he started to take a deep dive. He was actually friends with Thomas Kuhn who wrote Structure of Scientific Revolutions. And he was like, I don't know, maybe some of this alien stuff is real. And Kuhn was like, yeah, this, you know, basically you should, you know, try to maintain the null hypothesis for as long as possible. But even though you sit on a respectable perch at Harvard, you should actually dive into this. He started to dive into it. He'd started to take it very seriously. He was like, these people are reporting events that they feel are very, very real. They have no mental health history prior or after. And so it's interesting that you say that he sort of, you know, starts to view them as, as more spiritual or taking place in maybe a, a realm apart from the, the physical. He was also very inspired by Stanislav Grof and holotropic breathwork where the goal is actually to I think endogenously release DMT or something at the end of the breath work. And so if that's inspired Mac to that extent and then Mac would use that in his practice with a lot of the, the abductees in order for them to recall their experiences, maybe that adds to your point. But I will say that some of these abductees have physical marks and Things that implants and stuff where it's like, do you have an explanation for that? Have you thought of that?
- [12:24]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean, I think the, the line between the physical and the non physical is not always clear.
- [12:32]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [12:33]
Andrew Gallimore
So it's like you can't really, it's hard to get at. There is obviously what we would consider to be a physical aspect, but there also seems to be a very non physical aspect. And I just don't think we, as humans, we really understand. I think maybe if we were able to observe this from a higher perspective and kind of an overview, like a bird's eye view of reality, we, it might be obvious what's going on here. But I just, I just think it's, it's useful to be able to distinguish between the physical. It's kind of instructive to distinguish between the physical and the non physical. But actually sometimes you point out it's maybe a combination of the physical and the non physical.
- [13:15]
Jesse Michaels
I feel like people like, if they were to point to a dividing line where the physical and the non physical sort of divested, it would be Descartes or something in the kind of proverbial, you know. But if you look at Descartes like how that divestiture actually occurred is he was talking about, he was doing thought experiments about a demon controlling your entire perceptive epistemology in some almost, you know, proto, like VR headset that could be reality and all you could know is that your own thoughts were, were yours or something. Yeah, and so that's a pretty trippy thought. It is.
- [13:50]
Andrew Gallimore
And I actually that's kind of an interesting point because Grof actually in one of his books he said, look, if, if there are advanced intelligent beings, you know, aliens that are kind of non physical, discarnate everywhere and nowhere, then the way that they would appear to us would be, would be dismissed as hallucination. They would kind of interact with our brain directly. They wouldn't have to kind of materialize, so to speak, in an, in a true quote unquote physical form, but they would interact with us directly with our brain. And I think that's actually what's going on, whether it's Descartes demon. But I think the, when you smoke dmt, for example, what I think is happening or what I've come to believe or lean towards an explanation for what's happening is that you have these intelligences that don't have a physical form. They don't have a form that could even be represented in any kind of visual form. These are Completely non physical discarnate beings, but they, DMT somehow gives them access to our neural machinery. And so they are, I believe, directing the visions. I believe the DMT world to be what I call a directed world. I don't think you're going anywhere, I don't think you're peeking through into another world because that's not how perception works. Perception works by your brain building this model which is then tested against sensory inputs from the environment. You never have direct access to the so called external world or the environment. And it's the same in the DMT experience. You're not seeing the DMT world, whatever that might mean. You're simply giving access to these intelligent agents, giving them access to your brain. So you don't break through, I always say you don't break through into the DMT world. It's the DMT world or the intelligences within this space that break through into you. They have, they, they seize control, they kind of commandeer this world modeling machinery in your brain and they direct your visions.
- [16:27]
Jesse Michaels
Do they have, in your opinion, and this is maybe a philosophical question, do these entities have control prior to you taking DMT and then you are able to notice it through DMT or are you like, do they take control like when you take dmt?
- [16:45]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, I'm going to give the optimistic answer, which is to say it's dmt. I mean what DMT does is, generates this very fluid and dynamic state of the brain, of the cortex, this outer layer of the brain that constructs your world model. And some very recent neuroimaging data actually show that DMT makes the brain much more sensitive to being perturbed by external sensory or other types of input. So it becomes primed, if you like, to be commandeer, taken over in this way. So I'd like to think that they don't have access in the normal waking state, because that's kind of a horrifying thought, right? But in the presence of DMT they gain access or that it's a, it's your brain is in a much more vulnerable or susceptible state to being commandeered by these intelligences. And that's clearly what happens. People describe this, this massive, overwhelming rush of information that floods their brain. You know, complex imagery, mathematical imagery, blueprints, and just completely alien stuff that has no relationship to their normal waking experience. And I think that is kind of the hallmark of them basically saying, you know, we have control now for the next five minutes or so and, and then they, they kind of show you what they want to show you. Which is sometimes a performance. They kind of, they kind of say, look at this, look, look what we can do. And they will show these, they will often display these impossible higher dimensional beautiful objects that kind of morph in front of your eyes or they will hold up screens with these impossibly complex imagery. They will perform beings like harlequins or jokers and jesters and they will kind of, they will say, look, look at this, this is impossible. And yet we're doing it. You know, they're doing it with your brain. Your brain is like the stage that they are using to, for this performance. And then in other cases it's more serious. There seems to be a, some kind of agenda. People often describe like they were waiting for me. They knew, they weren't surprised. I was very surprised, but they weren't surprised at all. They had a place ready for me and they slotted me in and they started working there, scanning and lights flashing and beeping and just. They knew exactly what to do in the short time available. Yeah, it's.
- [19:39]
Jesse Michaels
So this brings up a question of like discernment, like if I don't know you, harlequin jesters and you know, tricksters and stuff and you know, on the other hand, you know, there's things with serious agendas for you. How do you go into a trip like this and be able to, and fend for yourself and go in with a specific intention where you're not, you know, the product being used, but you have a specific goal or intention or. I don't know, it can be very healing for a lot of people. For example, maybe, maybe that's the, the sort of positive outcome version of this. Or how do you, how do you sort of dictate that? And is it, is it inherently very risky?
- [20:21]
Andrew Gallimore
You don't dictate it. If you try to dictate it, then you're in trouble. Yes, because there's no way you cannot dictate it. I mean, that's the thing.
- [20:29]
Jesse Michaels
You have to surrender.
- [20:30]
Andrew Gallimore
You have to surrender and you can go in with intention. And people do. People will go in, they will, you know, they might suffer from, I don't know, chronic headaches or depression or something that they're seeking a solution to something and they go in with that intention. And very often they will find that these beings will get to work on them, literally on their brain, and they will feel their brain being reprogrammed and rewired by these elf like beings or other or insectoid beings. These are the kind of two of the most common types of being. And they will, they will often achieve great relief from that, you know, their headaches stop happening, you know, or, or they feel more positive about life. And if you're like their depression has lifted, so that's certainly possible. It's not, it's not like it's. You kind of have to accept that you get what you get, but at the end of the day, yes, you kind of do have to accept that you're not going to be able to control this thing. And if you try, that's, I think when bad experiences happen. When you go in there with a sense of self assured arrogance that, you know, we humans are the top of the, the intelligence tree, you know, that DMT will obliterate any, any kind of this anthropocentric belief that humans are the center of reality and that we are the most intelligent thing and that we've got it all worked out.
- [22:06]
Jesse Michaels
It'll humble you.
- [22:08]
Andrew Gallimore
Oh, it'll humble second. Yes.
- [22:10]
Jesse Michaels
It gives you what you need, not what you want when you come in. Like, you know, I've dabbled a little bit, I don't do much but. And I, I did, I did ayahuasca once. So I've never done dmt, but I've done the I Iaska is DMT in some sense. It's a kind of gnarly version of it. I don't know, I feel like the failure mode for me would have been like the universe showing me the, you know, some sort of like ultimate Fibonacci sequence that like, you know, because I'm, you know, kind of a truth seeker in that sense. And instead it was like, no, just walk and carry water. You know, your, your job is like, like you're way too grandiose about all this stuff. Yeah, like shut up. Like your family is all that matters. And it was like, it was great because of that, but it was not what I wanted. You know, I wanted, I wanted some, you know, ultimate secret or something.
- [22:59]
Andrew Gallimore
Everybody wants the blueprints for the time machine.
- [23:02]
Jesse Michaels
That's right.
- [23:03]
Andrew Gallimore
Right. And they said, why don't we get that, why don't we get the equations for the grand unified theory? But I think humans, we, we have this, this very human centered belief that we know what, what we need. And these beings, they have no interest in that. They know kind of, they know what's going on. And we have, we haven't got a clue what's going on. Yeah, we don't know shit really. And that's the most important message that we need to get, get. First of all, before we start getting the other messages, I think the first one that we need to take to heart is that, yeah, we haven't got a clue what's going on. We don't know shit.
- [23:44]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Andrew Gallimore
That we're not, we're not even close. We don't even register on the scale of intelligences that you can encounter within the dmt.
- [23:53]
Jesse Michaels
I would agree with that. But you are a human who has dared to create kind of an ontology around both psychedelics and it's really awesome. And it dovetails with a lot of my instincts where you have this alien Information theory. I want, I want to start with that because I, I love that book and goes into like these, I. This idea that, you know, these beings could be in some sense sort of simulating our current reality. But it also talks about, you know, there are myths from, you know, jinn and Islam to angels and demons and Christianity or, or, you know, Judaism and these things sort of having full wholesale control over our, our realities. And then, yeah, there's some sort of a bridge that takes place with dmt. But you even get into, you know, the information theory components of, of this and how they're maybe more pure information theoretic, these beings and you talk about John Wheeler and so yeah, maybe, maybe just for the audience, I'd love, I'd love for you to kind of go through that kind of whole ontology.
- [24:57]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah. I mean the book Alien Information Theory, people read it and think that this is kind of what I believe. It's not what I believe. It, it's, it's a, it's a work of art, it's a work of metaphysical speculation. I'm simply trying to show people that the world could well be and probably is something or reality probably is something that we. Completely different to what is normally presented to us by the theoretical physicists and the mathematicians and the astronomers and the astrobiologists, etc, etc, and that actually reality is probably, as Terence McKenna used to say, you know, stranger than we can suppose.
- [25:43]
Jesse Michaels
Yes.
- [25:43]
Andrew Gallimore
And I think that was Arthur C. Clarke. It was actually, it was a JBS Haldane originally said that he used the word queerer than we suppose. But stranger than we suppose is probably better these days. But yeah, anyway, and I think he's right. I mean, 30 seconds after you inhale a lung full of DMT, it's quite obvious that the reality is far, far stranger than you could possibly have supposed or anticipated. And the book was really to present one particular way of looking at reality. You know, maybe reality could be something like this. I don't think I got everything right, but I think the idea which I think is broadly correct, or could well be broadly correct, is that this reality, our lower dimensional reality, our three dimensional plus one reality is, is really a thin slice within a much larger higher dimensional structure. So we're kind of embedded within this high dimensional structure that we never normally have access to. And for reasons that we don't quite understand, DMT grants us temporary access to this high dimensional structure. And so you, the world you kind of unfold into is, I guess is one way of describing it. Your brain kind of unfolds into this high dimensional structure. This is why people describe entering a world that is not just strange but is literally impossible in that it could not exist within our three dimensional world, world in which there are more dimensions, what appears to be a very higher dimensional space, a kind of reality that our reality, our three dimensional world could only exist within, but it could not exist within our reality. If that makes sense.
- [27:56]
Jesse Michaels
It makes total sense. Yeah, yeah, I think. And at best they're little ports or bridges where they connect or something. Right. And you talk about like, it's like Carl Sagan had this great clip where he's talking about platonic solids and he talks about a tesseract and yeah, you would never see the tesseract, you'd see a shadow of the tesseract.
- [28:14]
Andrew Gallimore
Right.
- [28:15]
Jesse Michaels
There's a great book by Sir Edwin Abbott called Flatland. Yeah. Where it's like a 2D people and how they'd interact with 3D creatures. And you know, maybe there are ports or whatever whereby, you know, they can somehow connect to the 3D reality but they're, it's extremely limited. We're seeing sort of the tip of the iceberg. We're not seeing, you know, the iceberg itself.
- [28:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, we are kind of trapped within that flatland. And you know, as Carl Sagan said you would only in this world we would only see the shadow of the tesseract. When you go into the DMT space, people do describe seeing tesseracts and they will describe them. I saw something that was impossible. It was a four dimensional cube or five dimensional cube which is completely impossible for us to comprehend. Only we can only imagine it in the. As a mathematical abstraction. There's no way for you to visualize or to see a five dimensional object in its true form. And yet when you smoke dmt, you do, you enter these worlds that appear to be higher dimensional. And I think. Yes, rather than the portal. Well it is kind of a portal, but I would say it's gating the flow of information from. So rather than only receiving information, let's say from this 2D flatland. If you're in the flatland, you start to receive information from the third diet, the third dimension. And so your, the brain temporarily effectively becomes a higher dimensional object. The world that it's constructing is also higher dimensional. So you're seeing more, you're literally seeing a greater expanse of, of reality than you can in the normal waking state.
- [30:02]
Jesse Michaels
Oh, it's so fascinating.
- [30:05]
Unknown
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- [31:40]
Jesse Michaels
And you have different models of the brain that might involve sort of, you know, quantum biological processes. Like we have, you know, this burgeoning field of quantum biology where, you know, birds use it to, you know, locate the magnetosphere of the earth and navigate home and yeah, you know, enzyme creation. And you have, you know, photosynthesis is another example. And then you have Roger Penrose saying that the brain might, you know, these microtubules use sort of, you know, Quantum biological processes. And that would make sense in this sort of model because that would explain a lot of this sort of presentiment where you're so you sort of have you know, some, some sort of access to the future and you see traces of the future or the remote viewing stuff. All these sort of non local quote unquote experiences of consciousness would be maybe explained in a model like this. And so even Schrodinger who's you know, developed, you know, the, the wave function that governs all subatomic behavior in quantum mechanics. He had a lecture series called what is Life? Where he talked about aperiodic crystals in the DNA. And he was basically like these are like ports of like higher consciousness or something. Like, like, like there's like some sort of tesseract that like we're tethered to. There's something higher than us and we're like, we're a low level port within what or prism within which this higher thing is. It has to be sort of, you know, reduced into like the body is a reduction valve.
- [33:08]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah. I think like one of the questions that often comes up when I describe this idea that DMT is allowing information to flow from some other place, the question that always comes up is like, like how does that work? I mean we understand how information comes through the sense organs from the, the normal three dimensional dimensional environment, but how does that information come from this other place? And I think the answer is at a very low level. So quantum, sub quantum, maybe even much deeper levels that we don't even understand. I think it's coming from wherever, however we are connected to this broader reality structure, this broader higher dimensional structure, wherever that connection is, is obviously going to be kind of at the ground of reality, at the quantum or the sub quantum. And so the explanation I, or the kind of the model that I describe in alien information theory is this idea that the information is coming from the very deepest levels of reality.
- [34:19]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [34:20]
Andrew Gallimore
And flowing upwards through the quantum and then the, the subatomic and the atomic and through into these complex networks and ultimately to this highest level of, of the brain where your world model is constructed. So you have information always kind of FL welling up if you like, from the deepest level of reality and that process is somehow gated by the presence of dmt.
- [34:49]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, well, Niels Bohr would always say, you know, if you think you understand quantum mechanics, you definitely don't. It's like extremely confusing. And then if you, you look at all the forefathers of quantum mechanics, they all flirted with the Idea that the mind had something to do with wave function collapse. Often going back and forth on that issue, but it wasn't completely like heretical like it is sort of today. Yeah, and there's a guy named Hal put off actually, who's known to be at the forefront of like all the alien research. And he was just on Joe Rogan and he, he ran the government psychic spy program for the CIA. He's a super interesting guy, like, but also at the tip of the spear of sort of exotic propulsion modalities. Longtime nsa, CIA scientist who worked at Stanford Research Institute. And he has a model of extended electrodynamics that involves vector and scalar potential. So these sub quantum sort of phenomena that might have something to do with dictating wave function collapse. And maybe, you know, if aliens were to communicate, they'd probably communicate like this because apparently they propagate either at 1 over R, not 1 over R squared. So like, you don't get the attenuation over space time that you, that you do. You don't get the drop off. And it seems like they, they, you know, you get like, you know, effectively, like really, really fast, you know, communications and stuff with them. And so I don't know, it's fascinating. I wonder, I wonder if we can break any ground on this stuff in our lifetime and if we, or if we get a new model of physics in our lifetime. Like do you think, do you think physics in some ways is sort of, sort of breaking? It feels like all the string theorists are admitting that they're, you know, not, not really getting anywhere.
- [36:29]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean, I'm not a physicist, but I have spoken to physicists and the problem I think you get is as soon as you start talking about discarnate intelligent, advanced intelligences, the eyes start to roll and it's like they already, they've already decided what's possible and what's not possible. And the idea of these advanced super intelligent agents that, that you somehow interface with in the DMT state, it's too far from what they can accept.
- [37:07]
Jesse Michaels
Well, because they turn science into an all encompassing sort of religion. But if you think about, if really what they're calling science is two things, it's predictively useful and it can turn into sort of instrumentalizable technology. That is it.
- [37:23]
Andrew Gallimore
Right.
- [37:24]
Jesse Michaels
It is not an ontological map of reality. And so when you say I've experienced these beings in a DMT state when we could say tons of people, like a statistically significant amount of people experience the same things in the DMT state, they can just write that off because you can't turn it into math and you can't make it repeatable in our sort of waking reality. But I think that whole mode has limits and that that itself is going to break. Like the, that, the very idea that that is sort of a satisfactory explanation of all, you know, metaphysics, our reality itself has to break at some point.
- [38:04]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know what, I've, I've been studying DMT for 20 years and my approach has always been to first of all take the explanations that I'm given by the kind of mainstream science. These are hallucinations, this is a type of dream imagery, these are, you know, in a kind of archetypal symbols that come from the collective unconscious. And I have to basically deal with them, I have to analyze them, deconstruct them and show why they fail before I can say, okay, we've tried all the explanations that you've given, we've tried to kind of make them fit and they don't. They leave the vast majority of the DMT experience completely unaccounted for. So can we now please start to think about explanations that would have before seemed to be untenable. And when you do that, you actually find that the idea that there are advanced intelligences that are non physical, that have transcended the physical, what are often referred to as post biological beings, that's not far out anymore. I mean, there are very mainstream scientists that are saying, okay, you know, how does a intelligent civilization progress? Okay, it reaches eventually, after maybe millions of years, it reaches a kind of technological age, the kind of age we're in now, a digital computer age. Then it starts thinking about transcending biology. And people are thinking about that already. And many scientists are saying, look, we're probably now maybe only a few hundred years away from dispensing with the biological paradigm and shifting to a post biological paradigm. And you can see it in, you know, you have to kind of ignore, in my opinion anyway, this, this climbing the Carter Chef scale, this kind of Elon Musk idea that we're going to be colonizing Mars, this is a very human idea, right, that we have, that we're simply going to be expanding out into the cosmos and kind of populating other planets and moons or whatever as humans. I don't think that's what it's going to look like at all. And actually if you look at the anti Kardashev scale proposed by John Barrow in the 1990s where he said, look, we spend okay, we Spend a lot of money sending objects into orbit or you know, to distant celestial objects, whatever. But we spend much more time going not outwards, but inwards to smaller and smaller scales. If you think about the Large Hadron Collider, this is aimed at trying to understand and manipulate smaller and smaller structures, not larger and larger structures. And so it seems that a more likely trajectory for an intelligent civilization is not to go out into the cosmos, but to go deeper and deeper levels until you reach what Barrow called the Omega minus civilization, which is able to manipulate the fundamental structure of space time or the fundamental structure of reality itself. This is where we're going to be. Or this is where intelligent civilizations are going to instantiate themselves, not by spawning across the cosmos, but by instantiating themselves at the deepest level, the fundamental computational substrate of reality itself. That's where they going to go. And once they do that, once they make that leap, they disappear. They become everywhere and nowhere. Yeah, they become completely transparent to normal modes of communication. And yet they are literally right here, right now. And I think the idea, if they want to communicate with us, they're going to do it through our brain. That's obvious. Why? Why materialize in a physical form that makes no sense? Maybe they can do that, but it makes much more sense for them to interface directly with our brains. So that idea isn't far out, it doesn't stray too far from modern scientific discourse. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting happens with DMT is that you are gating access to some kind of advanced intelligent agent to your brain. Could it be one of these post biological beings that had vanished into the fabric of space time long before we arrived on the scene? Maybe. Could it be beings that exist parallel to our universe in some high level of reality? Maybe. I don't know. But what I'm saying isn't, it's not mystical, it's not magical. It's actually perfectly in line, in my opinion, with what scientists are already talking about in completely different fields.
- [43:19]
Jesse Michaels
Fields, yeah, I love that. Well, yeah, even Richard Feynman, famous physicist, well respected by all, you know, conventional or not, said, you know, there's room at the bottom. That was his famous sort of line.
- [43:32]
Andrew Gallimore
So much more room, much more room at the bottom. I mean orders, many orders of magnitude. Yes, space. Down there, down there.
- [43:40]
Jesse Michaels
And that's what he meant is what you were taught is sort of this, you know, similar to the Anti Kardashev scale where, you know, we have to go inwards and not, not just outwards. And even the Elon Musk thing involves all sorts of convoluted, you know, logic that makes no sense because he'll say at the same time as we need to, you know, colonize Mars and then go interstellar and like, you know, endlessly float through Cartesian space to like, you know, make the whole cosmos our empire or whatever, he'll say that and then he'll say, we live in a simulation, right? You can't believe if, like, if you think we live in a simulation, you have to think, how can we ascend outside of the simulation? That needs to be your first order thing before anything else. But he's basically saying, no, we have to accept the assimilation as it is and then just float through it and find some exoplanet. It's like, what are you talking about, dude? Like, find the computer code. What do you. It makes no sense. So, yeah, I find that interesting. And another kind of of cut at what you're saying with, you know, kind of large hadron colliders and, and finding, you know, really small, you know, sub quantum, you know, corks and that sort of thing is the human being. We take the human out of science. Like, we're not, we are not allowed to view ourselves as a measurement instrument. So it's like the double slit experiment where everybody's always like, it's the quantum detector, it's not the person or whatever. And you know, the Large Hadron Collider, which is like, like it's a, it's like a, you know, an empirical, like objective thing that we can do. But what about, what about an individual's like, epistemology? And especially over, you know, you're studying this stuff systematically. Like, can you discount all of that? If a lot of people are seeing these architectures outside of their own reality and they're all consistent, that seems like it would be really important. Like it's three, you know, the three body problem. This Chinese science fiction novel. Like, it's so great where it talks about like the farmer and the shooter. If we are these 2D things on Flatland or whatever and they're like, you know, metal, metal sheets or something. And you have shooters who are in 3D space shooting at the metal. You see these little craters? We just think they're little, you know, holes, little caverns in our, in our flatland. We have no idea that there are literally like people who are like, you know, grading the metal and like, you know, forming our world that, you know, they're sort of responsible for it. And it's completely at their Discretion. And the whole thing is that they literally have particle accelerators that like get different results. And it's like, it's kind of like the, the physics itself is at the discretion of these like tri solarian aliens. And it, it's a real mind. Yeah. Because there's nothing a conventional physicist can say that's like a hundred percent debunking of that possibility. Yeah, precisely.
- [46:29]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah. And they develop, you know, when they see these little pockmarks coming. They have, you know, mathematical models for how these arise that are completely wrong, of course, but they kind of maybe hold together and they develop more sophisticated models to explain how these pockmarks appear. And they just have no idea there's it's some other intelligence that's generating them. And I think, you know, I strongly lean towards the idea that that's the kind of reality that we live in, that we have all of these models of what's going on. And all models are wrong, but some are useful. And I think sometimes it's having useful models, which we clearly have useful models because we have all of this technology. So we clearly, our models, they're not nonsense. But the idea, it's important not to mistake a useful model with a true model model and that we're actually getting to the act, the actual true nature of reality, because I don't think we can say that at all.
- [47:32]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, it's. The map is not the territory.
- [47:35]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [47:35]
Jesse Michaels
And it's like you have. That's why I think string theory is such bs. It's like, I don't need to be a super well respected physicist. I'm not a physicist. But if you have two bad maps, general relativity and quantum mechanics, which are just heuristics for creating technology that's adaptive so we can, you know, do cool stuff in the world, create, you know, you know, create in the world. Why would you put the two jagged maps together with abstract math? That's never gonna work. Like, if you just think about that high level. It doesn't make sense.
- [48:07]
Andrew Gallimore
Right, Exactly. I mean, I'm not a physicist. I don't want to start, you know, getting into Ed Witten's territory and things.
- [48:14]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was losing a debate to him. But like, like, yeah, but like again, you just. All you need is that high level common sense thing like heterodoxy and unorthodox thinking doesn't scale with iq. You can have a hyper specialized, extremely intelligent person who is bled into a BS cul de sac, like sheep to slaughter. And that, that happens all the time.
- [48:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [48:39]
Jesse Michaels
So there's, there's intelligence is, it's a really finicky, hard, you know, thing where it's like the, the ability to think in a sort of a variant, you know, non consensus way. It doesn't necessarily scale in this perfect way. Like, like mathletes are not necessarily doing that thing. No, you know, and there's a place for both. But like, I don't know.
- [49:01]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:02]
Jesse Michaels
But do you think that, you know, there have been groups, you know, Graham Hancock wrote the, the forward to your new book, the Death by Astonishment, which I recommend everybody go by and he, Graham's a really interesting guy because he kind of oscillates between writing about kind of, you know, more conventional archaeology, but just kind of, you know, his like contrarian views, you know, things like a Beckley Tepe and the Younger dress impact theory. And then he writes these other books that like people don't talk about as much with like Robert Baval about like secret societies like controlling earth and stuff. And like, like you have, you know, the Freemasons, I think in acacia leaf or something is like in their like, you know, symbology and you have the Eleusinian mystery rituals. Graham also wrote the forward to Brian Marirescu's book, you know, about, you know, called the Immortality Key about these mystery rituals. Do you think that like elite members of society have been systematically accessing these other realms and either on behalf of or in conjunction with these quote unquote entities or machine elves helping to shape our reality? Are there, are there myth makers?
- [50:15]
Andrew Gallimore
Oh, that's a very interesting idea. I mean I, I, the short answer is I don't know, but it's quite clear that there are, there are, have been civilizations going back thousands of years. I mean Graham wrote this wonderful book, book Supernatural, which is not one of his most well known, where he, he examined the cave art going back tens of thousands of years and made the compelling argument, as have many other anthropologists. It's not just Graham here that these civilizations 30, 40,000 years ago during the Upper Paleo, Upper Paleolithic, if I'm getting my periods right. But anyway, they were, the cave art clearly showed beings that were non human, that were non animal or that seemed to be some kind of combination of humanoid and animal form in these pitch black, deep dark caves. And the question is why, why, why you know, were they interfacing? Did they discover a means of interacting with these intelligences all, all those thousands of years ago? Darkness is very interesting as a kind of, as an aside Here in that many people who like modern day darkness retreats where people go into these pitch black rooms for five, six, seven days. Many of them describe, you know, after the fourth, fifth day, describe experiences that they say are DMT experiences. Aubrey Marcus, I was on his show a few months ago and he's very experienced with dmt. He's also very experienced with darkness retreats and he said this wasn't like dmt, this was a dmt. I had a DMT experience whilst, you know, after the fourth or fifth day in this darkness retreat. So we're actually doing a study now, we're kind of initiating a study to actually test this. And myself and New Nordics, the group that I work with in Florida, we're funding a study where they're going to send people into these darkness retreats dark rooms and then take urine samples or saliva samples or blood samples at intervals and see do these DMT spikes. Do we see dmt?
- [52:43]
Jesse Michaels
That's fascinating. Well, you know there, there were even pre, the Eleusinian and other mystery rituals where they would take ergot, you know, this sort of, you know, lsa, you know, psychedelic substance. There were caving rituals, there are pre Socratic caving rituals. Guy named Peter Kingsley writes about this, where they would literally go into a cave for long amounts of time and they would presumably have some pretty transcendent sort of experiences. So that's really interesting.
- [53:10]
Andrew Gallimore
So that could be what's, what's going on. And so this is just another technology or another technique that they, they had discovered. Yeah, and, and you see throughout history whether, you know, it could be the Eleusinian mysteries where they discovered this ergot preparation. Now whether it's just ergot, whether that other synergistic plants being added, some people speculate that and Brian Muresco speculated there are other things going in that enhance or catalyze the experience. But still it's the same thing. You're somehow, you're using some kind of technique, whether it's a molecular technique or darkness or breath work or whatever, some kind of technique to manipulate your neurochemistry in some way such that you can access these intelligent beings that you couldn't access otherwise. And so, so the fact that these civilizations have been working with these intelligences for thousands and thousands of years, you kind of have to take that seriously to just dismiss it and say, oh, they were just deluding themselves, they were just having hallucinations. No, I think that's, that's, it's kind of insulting. The, the Amazonians who developed ayahuasca, for example. You know, this is a true pharmacological technology. This is not just an infusion of a plant. This isn't, this is, this is a technology that requires both the dmt, which is orally inactive, plus this plant, Banisteriopsis carpi, the ayahuasca vine which contains the MAO inhibitors that allow it to become active. These have to be brought together. And so this is a pharmacological technology they have developed and they develop relationships with the beings that they interact with in their ayahuasca state and also with other plant based preparations. Epaina, Yopo and others. They develop relationships with these beings. They have names for the different types of beings. They see them as members of their tribe. They don't see them as spirits, they don't call them spirits. They say they are not human, they are not animal, they are other. They see them as, but they see them as beings that they can develop relationships with, that will protect them, that they can communicate with, that they can seek answers from. And to dismiss all of that and say, oh, they're just, you know, they're just hallucinating. I think it's, it's, it just speaks to the, this self assured cocky arrogance that modern post enlightenment humans have, that we have it all worked out. We have a handle on what's possible. Yeah, what's not possible. We know what's real and what's not real. And I'm sorry, but that's not real, I'm afraid. Yeah, you're just hallucinating. It's just a kind of dream. No, I'm sorry, that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and it's kind of insulting to these cultures that have developed these technologies and I was a credible technology.
- [56:23]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's so, it's so fast. And just the likelihood of combining those two things, you know, in the Amazon forest are like, like if you run through a bunch of permutations or whatever, the likelihood of getting that combination is very low still.
- [56:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [56:39]
Jesse Michaels
Like it's, it had to have been. That itself had to have been sort of downloaded or something as like a recipe for this.
- [56:46]
Andrew Gallimore
That's what they will tell you. They will tell you. If you ask them, how did you discover this? They will say, well, the plants told us, you know, when they say the plants they mean these intelligences which reside within the forest. They told them. Yeah, how to, how to do this and who are we to say?
- [57:02]
Jesse Michaels
And they talk about people from the starts. Funny, in the western Context. We have disclosure and we have, you know, you know, government reverse engineering programs. And there they're like, yeah, obviously we have these people that we communion with from this, you know, they come down from the stars. And I also find it interesting if you were to go to any Western academic, you know, philosophy department, you know, there's a famous quote, I think, think all philosophy is a footnote of Plato or something.
- [57:26]
Andrew Gallimore
Right? Yeah.
- [57:27]
Jesse Michaels
And we think of Plato as like the father of, you know, modern Western rationality, like pre enlightenment. And then you like, look back at like what he was doing and it's like he went to Elusis, right. And he was tripping on urgot and like, probably experiencing some like, primordial soul version. You know, there's a word for it, noises. The version of himself. And then he writes about all of that stuff in the Republic and we ignore that. We talk about it like. Like it's some like, myopic governance manual. And it's just like what is. Like, it's completely retracing the past with our modern kind of disenchantment. Epistemology.
- [58:03]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah. Alan Watts used to say that the modern philosopher would wear a white coat if he thought he could get away with it. Right.
- [58:10]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [58:10]
Andrew Gallimore
They think of themselves as like scientists doing philosophy. They come in with their briefcase and they put on their white coat and they do philosophy. They take themselves very seriously.
- [58:21]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [58:21]
Andrew Gallimore
That they're getting to the. The nitty gritty. The truth of the matter.
- [58:26]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. And I think there's this like, desire for people like Steven Pinker, Richard. Richard Dawkins or all these people to like, defend the status quo. Like, I think the big rift between people like that and like maybe you and me is like. I don't think. I don't. We think that we don't have any of the answers, like you and me. I think they think that they do. And like. Like we are putting the final period at the end of a very long sentence of, you know, this enlightenment project and we're at the end of history in some ways, like the final rule in the game of chess is yet to be figured out. Maybe that's string theory, maybe it's some, you know, other thing. But like, we pretty much know how reality works in their. In their mind. And that is insane to me. It's insane. It's the ultimate hubris.
- [59:16]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, they were saying that. I forget who said it. Maybe it was like the 19th century that we have based all of physics has now been worked out. It's now a matter of increasingly precise measurements. And then came relativity and quantum theory and it's changed everything. But we make the same mistakes even now. Many people, not everybody. And you have to be a little bit careful because there is a lot of. For want of a better term.
- [59:46]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [59:47]
Andrew Gallimore
That, you know, within this kind of field. Right. There are a lot of grifters and there are a lot of artists.
- [59:57]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [59:58]
Andrew Gallimore
And so you have to. It's really difficult. You have to kind of tread a fine line between not being. There's this tension, I always find, and one is pulling you back towards standard, materialist, orthodox, mainstream science and kind of thinking. Yeah. We've got it all worked out. These are just hallucinations, nothing to be concerned about. And then you've got another. This, this, this from the opposite direction. You're being pulled into just a steaming pile of. Right. And it's like, how do you. You have to. It's a constant struggle for me.
- [60:36]
Jesse Michaels
Yes.
- [60:36]
Andrew Gallimore
To try and separate myself from the bullshit.
- [60:39]
Jesse Michaels
It.
- [60:39]
Andrew Gallimore
Whilst not being too far out from the sign.
- [60:42]
Jesse Michaels
If you're engaging in that struggle, then you're doing it right. Yeah.
- [60:46]
Andrew Gallimore
It's right.
- [60:46]
Jesse Michaels
It's a Scylla and Charybdis between excess dogmatism and excess skepticism.
- [60:50]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [60:51]
Jesse Michaels
Or to put it in your. The way you just framed it, New Agey, kind of solipsistic, you know, everything is everything. Mushy brain.
- [61:00]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [61:01]
Jesse Michaels
Thinking. And then on the other hand, you know, complete radical Cartesian skepticism or something like. There has to be some middle path.
- [61:11]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [61:11]
Jesse Michaels
And that, that, that is a treacherous place that you find yourself very alone because it's much easier to snap, to grid on. Either there's. The tribal dynamics exist in a way that, you know, things coagulate on either end of that kind of, you know. Barbell.
- [61:26]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, exactly. So that's what I do. So I. It's. It's a difficult path, but it's the only path, I think when you're faced with something like dmt strange and it's so, in my opinion, mysterious and inexplicable. You're not going to be able to explain it by just snapping to the usual explanations. Because. Because they fail.
- [61:50]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [61:50]
Andrew Gallimore
And that's what I found, is that they fail. So I tread careful. I keep one foot firmly planted in the scientific arena.
- [61:58]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [61:59]
Andrew Gallimore
And I. And I then reach out with an outstretched hand into other territory. But I'm very careful about what I say, what I do and that. I try and rationalize and explain my thinking every step of the way. I don't just say, oh, me. Maybe these are spirits from the astral plane. Yeah, that'll do.
- [62:17]
Jesse Michaels
Right, right.
- [62:19]
Andrew Gallimore
You know, maybe these are spirits of the departed. Yeah, that will do.
- [62:22]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [62:24]
Andrew Gallimore
Because you can. Anything goes. No, and you can't. Yeah. I try to trace it back and make. Just, just to kind of convince people that I'm not just nuts. I'm not just kind of going with, with whatever. But I do explain myself, I think, kind of carefully and rationally and, you know, piece by piece, step by step.
- [62:45]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, no, I, I feel the same way. And it's, it's tough because, like, YouTube, for example, doesn't do nuance. Well, no, so I, you know, I have a show and people think it's like an alien show or whatever. I'm like, I don't know if these things are aliens. Like, I don't know if in fact, I would say that there are other hypothesis hypotheses that better describe them than the sort of, you know, classic extraterrestrial hypothesis. But it's this meme that people can't seem to transcend or something. And so it's, it's, it's wild. But on that note of like, wanting to keep your, your feet sort of firmly grounded, we were talking before the camera about Christopher Timmerman at Imperial College, who you sort of devised some of these extended DMT experiments that he's, you know, executing. We were also talking about a mutual friend. I haven't talked to him in a long time, this guy Anton built in, who is thinking of giving people dmt, putting them in adjacent Faraday cages. So there, you know, there's no way of like, you know, traditional signals being communicated, you know, electromagnetically and seeing if they can telepathically, like, you know, transport, image, communicate images between them. Are there any experiments like those two or anything else that you are particularly excited about that brings this stuff out of the realm of speculation and more into the scientific mainstream?
- [64:06]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean, so the dmt, the work that Chris Timmerman was doing at Imperial, this, what's called Extended State DMT or dmtx, it has come to be known for sure. So this was a model, a proposal by myself and Rick strassman back in 2015, because as everyone knows who knows anything about DMT, it's, it's an extremely intense experience. You know, you're trend, you're kind of hurtled into this ultimate world. You look around shocked, bewildered, aghast at this thing that's just appeared in front of you and that Surrounds you and overwhelms you and then you're kind of dragged back again very, very quickly. It's not a great drug used in that way, you know, vaporized or injected. It's not a great drug to kind of explore. It's not a, the state is, it's very fast and very, very short. So I was kind of looking at dm. DMT is a weird drug, not just in terms of its effects, but it's, it has these pharmacological peculiarities that set it apart. So unlike other drugs, for example LSD or psilocybin, if you give someone lsd, they will have a certain intensity of experience based upon dose. If you then give them the same dose, let's say a day later, it will be slightly diminished and then a day later and it, you, you rapidly build up tolerance. The same with psilocybin. With dmt you don't. And it's not fully understood why. But Rick Strassman, there have been reports going back decades that you can use DMT in quick succession and not experience intolerance effect. And Rick Strassman studied this during his 1990s studies. He would inject someone with DMT and he'd measure the intensity of the experience using a special rating scale that he developed. Then he'd inject them again 30 minutes later with the same dose and they had the same intensity of experience and on and on. So there was no buildup of tolerance. It's also of course, because it's so short acting, it's removed from the brain. It gets into the brain very, very quickly and it's cleared from the brain very, very quickly. It's just this, it's like an engine. It's almost like it's engineered with precision to kind of slot into the brain's machinery and kind of cause these highly dramatic changes in the structure and dynamics of the world. And so it occurred to me that, well, why don't we repurpose a technique from anesthesiology called target controlled intravenous infusion where you, if you want to keep someone in an anesthetized state, what you do is you don't just inject them with a drug and kind of let it kind of get into their brain and then metabolize because you can't control how long they're, they remain unconscious for. So what you do, you, you inject them with a very short acting anesthetic and you infuse it, use a special infusion device which is programmed based upon the, the, the metabolism and Distribution, all these kind of properties of the drug that you, you need a mathematical model for. So you infuse it into their, their, their veins and, and you able to maintain this fairly stable brain concentration of this anesthetic drug. And you can manipulate how deep we say are in the anesthetized state for as long as you want. Then you switch off the machine and they will come out fairly, fairly quickly. So I thought, why don't we just use this technology, but with dmt. Whoa. And so I wrote to Rick and I said, I kind of have this idea, I think this might work, but we need to kind of show that it, that it could work. And for that we needed this, what's called a pharmacokinetic model, which models how DMT is distributed and metabolized so that we can, we can just show that, yes, this should work, the dmt, the properties of DMT make it amenable for this technique. And so Rick had all of the blood data, blood sampling data from his 90s studies, which he sent to me. And then we got to work and we wrote this paper which basically said, yes, DMT seems to be amenable to this kind of technology. And it got a lot of attention. People started talking about alien communication machines and matrix and this kind of thing, the matrix machine, whatever. But then fortunately, Imperial College picked it up and they developed a much better model than, than our kind of back of the envelope model and they implemented it in humans and they were able to extend the DMT state, stabilize it for 30 minutes. So instead of just two or three minutes within the breakthrough state, they extended it for 30 minutes. And it worked very, very well. There was no physiological concerns. The heart rate, blood pressure was normal. Anxiety levels kind of peaked at the beginning and then settled down. The, the intensity of the experience was perfectly stable throughout the 30 minutes. And another group in Basel, Matthias Leakete, I think he's called, has extended it for 90 minutes. Another group has extended it for six hours at a very low dose level. So this is the technology, right? This is, this is how we go from scuba diving to deep sea diving. You have this like you, you're able to go to the bottom of the ocean and stay there. You know, you have a direct line back to the boat. You know, that's how I see dmtx. It allows you to explore, to navigate, to perform experiments within the space and to train people to actually spend time within the space. And importantly, it's almost like lucid dreaming or something.
- [70:03]
Jesse Michaels
Kind of like a little in control.
- [70:05]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [70:06]
Jesse Michaels
Out of control.
- [70:07]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly. And so once you get into this space and it stabilizes, then you can begin to think about establishing communication with these intelligences, whatever you think they are, whatever you think about that ontology, okay, we can establish communication with them, begin to think about, you know, what can we learn from them. And one aspect that I'm particularly interested in is the ontology. Can we demonstrate that these are more than just fabrications of the brain, Right? Can we show somehow that we're actually interfacing with some kind of intelligence that is non human? And that if that was possible, and I think it might be, that's, I mean, that the implications of that is almost beyond comprehension, right? The idea that we can use this drug to communicate with beings and we can show that these are non human intelligent beings. And I think that's, that's, that could be possible. Back in the early 2000s, a guy called Rodriguez published his paper and he said, why don't we give these entities, why don't we give them mathematical problems so we can say, okay, I'll give you a large number, Mr. Alien, I want you to find the unique prime factors of this large number. I can't do this in my head, but you're very, very smart, so you can do that for me. Now, it's a nice idea, right? And if they gave them the correct answer, we'd know that it was not happening in the brain, that there was actually interaction with some kind of intelligence. The problem with this, of course, is that, you know, finding it's, it, it's, it kind of feels again, a bit presumptuous that they're going to want to play our little prove your ontological status games, prove that you're real. Here's some, you know, I don't see it's very presumptuous to think that they're going to want to kind of play along with that. So I don't think that's necessarily the way to go. It's one way to go. But I think what's interesting about these intelligences is that they betray, they can't help but betray their intelligence. Everything they do is a kind of performance and demonstration of their intelligence. You just need people who can recognize it. So I was speaking, speaking just a few days ago in Denver at the psychedelic science conference with Andres Gomez Emilson. So he's this very smart mathematician guy, but also very interested in dmt. And he was telling me things that were blowing my mind. I mean, he was, he said, okay, I go into this state the DMT state. And these beings, they. They paint surfaces in four colors. They do it repeatedly. Now, to me, if I go in and I see an entity painting surfaces with four colors, I go, that's cool. But he said, actually there's more to it than this, because painting a surface with four colors, like a map. Yeah. A complicated map of shapes, right. With four colors, called the four color color theorem. So if you have a map of shapes that are all kind of tessellated, right. You have. You have to color each shape with a color, so one of four colors such that no two shapes have the same color, right? So imagine a world map and you have to color every country, but you don't want two countries having the same color, Right? You can do it. It's been proved that you can do it with just four colors. But if you were given a very complex map and asked to do it by hand, it would take you a long time. I mean, Andres is a very smart guy and he said it would take him. Him all afternoon. Right? So for me, that means it would take me all day. Right. And yet these entities, they. They do it instantaneously, like less than a second, and they do it repeatedly. So they're performing, you know, in short, they're performing mathematical operations. Mathematical algorithms that would take a human brain, a smart human, several hours, and they're doing it in a fraction of a second. And there are other things and that I didn't quite understand, but other operations, finding the distances between two surfaces. Weird stuff. Mathematical stuff, right. So most people, when they go into this space, they go, this is incredible. This is impossible. But they can't tell you why it's impossible. When a mathematician goes into this space. Yeah. They can say, say, yes, this is impossible for these reasons. Right. These are the mathematical operations required to construct these things. And a human brain couldn't do that within a fraction of a second. So it just occurred to me that this is how we do it. We don't kind of rely on them to play with us or to kind of. To cooperate with our little prove yourself games. But actually they're doing it all the time. They're demonstrating their intelligence. They can't help it. They love performing. And we just need to send the right people in. So we send in mathematicians, you send in geometers or topologists.
- [75:17]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [75:18]
Andrew Gallimore
Or whatever. Right. You send in linguists.
- [75:20]
Jesse Michaels
Whoa.
- [75:21]
Andrew Gallimore
Who can look at the kind of. Because code and language is also a big part of the experience. And they can say, okay, this seems to be some kind of language. And I can explain why it's some kind of language. It seems to be informationally dense or whatever. You know, it adheres to these various, various rules of how languages are constructed and bringing data back. So you're not just sending people in and going kind of what happened, man? Right. The kind of, the Strassman approach is great for its time, but now we have this DMTX technology. We can send people in with specific skill sets.
- [75:52]
Jesse Michaels
Whoa.
- [75:53]
Andrew Gallimore
Specific, you know, high level expertise in very specific fields and they can say, okay, I'm going to come in, I'm going to describe the geometric structure of the space, I'm going to describe the, the topology of the space. I'm going to describe the way that these intelligences communicate and all this kind of stuff. It's hard to comprehend the implications, I think that we could actually demonstrate.
- [76:14]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [76:15]
Andrew Gallimore
Pretty soon, you know, or at least to a very high level of probability, say, okay, these intelligences are doing things that the human brain can't do. What does that mean?
- [76:28]
Jesse Michaels
Yes, yes. Do we have, you know, in the past we've had angel hierarchies. Like you have St. Thomas Aquinas with his angel hierarchy or Iamblichus, you know, who's the other guy? Dionysus of Ariapagite or something?
- [76:43]
Andrew Gallimore
Something like that.
- [76:43]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Like we have these sort of, and they literally have taxonomies where they'll have like attributes associated with these different beings, physical characteristics of the beings. Do we have a taxonomy of, of the DMT world beings? Do we have categories, you know, like, like a, like an Excel sheet of.
- [77:01]
Andrew Gallimore
These things, Like a bestiary? Right. We don't, not a formal one. Yeah, I mean there are, there are attempts online, you know, to describe. And there's a book by David J. Brown, Illustrated Field Guide to DMT Entities, which is a lot of fun kind of describing the type of entities that people experience. And there, there are clearly patterns, mountains. So the machine elves, by far the most famous residents of this space. They tend to be jovial, they're multitudinous. You know, there's so many of the bouncing around and they're jolly and they like to show you wonderfully strange high dimensional objects. Terrence McKenna used to call like Faberge eggs, but in nine dimensions or whatever. You know, these kind of beings that, that tend to be more about a, a show, like a circus kind of thing, more about performing and showing you what's possible. And then there are more kind of serious beings. So the insectoids, mantid kind of beings. These tend to be A bit more, less jovial, shall we say? Often. And they are, those are often the beings that will perform kind of surgery on you, on your brain, on your body and scanning and this kind of.
- [78:17]
Jesse Michaels
Thing, thing that's so common in alien abductions.
- [78:19]
Andrew Gallimore
So common.
- [78:20]
Jesse Michaels
And there are always these sort of worker be like often short grays and then there's like a tall gray overseeing it or there's a, a tall white, you know, these like sort of blonde, Nordic looking beings overseeing, you know, it. There is this sort of hierarchy. Yeah, always, almost, almost always associated with.
- [78:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I, I actually gotten, last year I got this email from this Korean guy. Now there aren't that, I don't think there are that many Koreans who take ayahuasca who traveled to Peru to take ayahuasca. So I kind of, it piqued my interest when he emailed me. But he, he went to Peru because he wanted healing. He wanted to meet mother ayahuasca and the spirits of the forest. And he didn't get that. He got a full blown alien experience. He, he was, was taken by this, what he described as the alien scientist through this extremely complex computational tunnel thing into this spacecraft or some kind of highly hyper technological environment. And these beings were torturing him. They were happy with these smaller beings again, the hierarchy, these smaller beings that were kind of doing things to him. And then there was this alien scientist who was not like these little insectoid beings, but was much, much more powerful. And that, that he describes this being as taking out his soul. This being was torturing him at a deep soul level. I mean he came out of it thinking that his soul had been captured like a fish on a hook. He described it by these beings and it went on and on. First experience the aliens came. Second experience more of the same. Third experience more. Every single ayahuasca session while he was in Peru, it just got worse and worse. They showed him horrible things. They showed him humanity being destroyed and trapped in this matrix like structure or whatever. I mean it was horrible. It was completely alien. It was nothing like he was expecting. He was, he was expecting. His brain was primed to see the spirits of the forest. He got something completely alien and he was horrified by it. And that's not an uncommon experience when people take, you know, when you take dmt, whether it's in the form of ayahuasca in a forest or whether it's in a, the University of New Mexico hospital in, in room 531 where Rick Strassman did his studies or in your bedro or basement or back room, you, you cannot, you cannot guarantee the kind of being that you're gonna be interacting with. And if you're lucky, you'll get some nice performance from the ALBs. But there's a very deep, you know, not insignificant probability that you encounter beings more objectionable, shall we say?
- [81:24]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, for sure. Well, that brings up this earlier question that we kind of touched on. Touched on. But it's like how, you know, is the, is DMT a bridge to a world that is separated without the DMT from our waking reality? Or are they always like pre enlightenment? If you were to say there are, you know, machine elves, not call them by that name, but like little beings sort of like controlling the forces of, you know, reality and like, you know, pre gravity and things like that, that we'd be like, yeah, of course, like spirits controlling everything. Like literally pre Newton. That would have been the sort of conventional explanation. And I saw you on the Danny Jones podcast, which I loved, and I think you guys brought up Philip K. Dick, right? And Philip K. Dick would be one of these guys who would extend this sort of DMT world to his model of reality itself. Where, you know, he gave this famous speech in Mets France where he, I think it was called, called, you know, if you, if you think this world sucks, you should see the others or something. And he's talking about the man in the High Castle, you know, where it's like the Nazis and the Japanese had like annexed, you know, the United States of World War II, went the other way. And he's, you know, then he's giving the speech in front of all these like well respected people or whatever. And he's like, you guys don't get it. Like that world happened, like that's real, like that's an all the parallel universe or, or something. And so he goes into this whole, he has this whole ontology. My friend Riz Verk, who's written, you know, a couple of books about simulation theory, is friends with his wife Tessa Dick, and she talks about how he was just fully bought into the world being a simulation. You know, it's like time froze in Roman time, like we're still in Roman times. And this, this is all this just sort of modern veneer. But maybe the most interesting book I think he wrote along these lines is this book called the Adjustment Team. I don't know if you've heard of this, but it's a, it's a book about like, if you had a group that was in total control of reality and they like Froze this, you know, podcast. And then they like, you know, moved the water like an inch or whatever. And then you'd get this just like, you know, for rockets, like one degrees off course. You get this sort of air propagation. You get this multiplicative butterfly effect that like changes timelines. And if you think about a lot of what you're saying with these DMT entities, if they have any interface with our waking reality, they would have that ability. Yeah, like the color thing that you mentioned. So it gets into these weird questions of like, are there time editing archons or beings that are like coming down, freeze framing things, neuralizing us, changing a little variable here and there and then, then letting things run their course. And then, okay, you know, some other, some other thing happens where some, you know, a nuke's about to go off. They stop the nuke or whatever, you know, which UFOs show up around nuclear sites. Right. But they're like weakly entangled with our reality. All they care about are these sort of cosmic scale timeline minor. It's, it's minimal interference.
- [84:34]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [84:34]
Jesse Michaels
Minimal adjustments necessary to like maintain certain timelines. But they are monitoring the timelines.
- [84:41]
Andrew Gallimore
I think we, you know, I can't say whether that's true or not, but we can't rule it out. And when it's like when you, when you use DMT and, and you're confronted with being that are clearly to say they're more advanced than humans, it just doesn't do them justice. I mean, you're talking about beings that have, that appear to have that kind of cosmic, cosmic abilities, whether that is indeed having, whether they are normally kind of linked to, connected to have some kind of relationship with our, with our reality, but kind of. Stay back. I don't know. But you. The fact that we have this, what I consider to be a molecular technology that allows us to interface with beings that, that seem to have those kind of properties, that seem to be at that level of intelligence, a level of intelligence that really is beyond our comprehension. We can't. There's no way for us to conceive of what an intelligence like that truly is, or its potential or its power or its abilities, then we should use it.
- [85:58]
Jesse Michaels
And.
- [86:00]
Andrew Gallimore
Going back thousands of years, I mean, these, obviously these civilizations in the Amazonian rainforest, they didn't have. They weren't talking about things you're talking about, but they were describing the same types of beings which they took very seriously. So they were talking about the Yanomami, for example, had these being which they called the Warusinari. Insect beings which sound very much, you know, very intelligent, very fearsome creatures, which sound a lot like the insectoid aliens that people are describing in the 21st century. They describe the hekura, which are these multitudinous beings. You can never come to the end of them. They say they come dancing and they're, they're singing and playing flutes and they're just beautiful dance bounding around and jumping into your chest and filling your chest. This is shamanistic mythos going back thousands of years. And then in the modern era, people describe seeing multitudinous, giggling, lively little beings, balls of light or whatever that jump into their chest. And so clearly this is not just a. It's not Terence McKenna implanting the idea of machine elves into people's brains. These are motifs, beings, intelligent beings that go back thousands of years. And now we have a technique, we know how to access them, and we need to start taking that seriously and not simply dismissing, you know, my work is not so much about saying, I know what's going on, but really to convince people that they don't have a clue what's going on and that they, they should stop simply assuming that they understand what DMT is. It's just your brain on drugs, man. This is just your brain making it up, man. You know, that these kind of explanations and they don't, they don't work. And I think we need to, we need to draw inspiration from these indigenous peoples who did take them seriously and did see them as beings that they could have relationships with and learn from and bring that into. There's a thread running from these indigenous cultures going back thousands of years and it's, it runs into the 21st century where we now, we have much better technology. Now we have, as I was just talking about, dmtx, we have this technology where we can much more reliably and stably enter the space. We're not relying on drinking, extremely bitter, disgusting decoctions. Nothing wrong with that. But we now have techniques where we can stabilize the state. We can go in there, we can send people and we can actually begin to build relationships with these intelligences. And that might be what we need if we're going to progress beyond where we are now. You know, we need to do that probably pretty quickly before we kill ourselves, which is not that unlikely.
- [88:56]
Jesse Michaels
Right? Do you, do you think, you know, DMT is so fascinating. Do you think that there is something about the fact that it exists in all organic matters that is sort of an important aspect to it?
- [89:09]
Andrew Gallimore
I mean, that's, that's Again, that's another one of its peculiarities, right? It's not. It's the simplest of all the naturally occurring psychedelics. You look at the molecule, it looks perfectly unremarkable. There's nothing interesting about it. If I saw DMT and I didn't know anything about it, I'd say, probably not going to be that interesting. It's two steps, enzymatic steps, from tryptophan, this amino acid, you decarboxylate tryptophan, you get tryptamine, you add two methyl groups, you get dmt. This is as simple as it gets. And as you said, it's not just common, it's ubiquitous. Terrence Dennis McKenna, Terence's brother, says the nature is drenched in DMT. He thinks, and he's probably right, that if you looked carefully, you'd find it in basically every plant. Some have higher concentrations than others.
- [90:04]
Jesse Michaels
You can extract it from.
- [90:05]
Andrew Gallimore
You can extract it, right? So it's this, it's, it's, it's this ubiquitous, very simple molecule that just happens to, when you smoke it or inject it, just happens to gate access to this completely alien reality filled with highly intelligent beings. I don't buy that that's just a coincidence. It seems like there is this message implanted in our reality, implanted in the natural world, and it just takes an organism with a certain level of cognitive advancement, right? You can't just eat plants, you can't just munch plants mindlessly and have a DMT trip. You can't do that. You have to isolate it, you have to extract it, you have to learn how to use it, as the Amazonians did with ayahuasca, to bypass this monoamine oxidase in the stomach. That you need an intelligent being to do that, which is another interesting aspect to it. You don't stumble across dmt. You have to learn to, you have to discover it and learn how to use it. And this is not, you know, the technology didn't end with ayahuasca. It didn't end in the 1960s when we learned that you could vaporize it either. And it didn't end in 2015 when myself and Rick Strassman developed the DMTX protocol. I think we're still learning to use this, this, this technology, and I think so interesting.
- [91:32]
Jesse Michaels
It is like a technology. It's like semiconductors are like, you know, it's like electron differentials or whatever. It's like this is like, you know, another technology where if you figure out the key to extracting it, like you're you're opened up to a whole new world.
- [91:46]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly. And what's also very interesting of course is that it's not just a product of plant metabolism. Metabolism, it's a product of mammalian metabolism as well. So it's found in humans. So we're all carrying DMT at very low levels. Which raises the question. And again this is something that I'm currently working on with, with New Nordics. We've, we've hired the University of, got contracted with a team at the University of Florida to actually develop techniques to hack the brain's endogenous DMT system. Right. So we know that there is, we know the human brain produces DMT but in very low levels. And we think we. A peptide or a peptide that was first found in the 1970s but then forgotten about.
- [92:36]
Jesse Michaels
What's a peptide?
- [92:37]
Andrew Gallimore
We don't know. We know it's there. We know it basically it inhibits this enzyme called indolethyl. Indolethylamine N methyltransferase inmt.
- [92:47]
Jesse Michaels
Okay.
- [92:47]
Andrew Gallimore
It's the key enzyme to produce dmt basically converts tryptamine to dimethyltryptamine. Now this enzyme is, is inhibited by this peptide we all carry and basically keeps DMT levels low. Now we know this peptides there, it's in cerebrospinal fluid, it's in mammalian brain. But we don't know how it works. We don't know its structure or its sequence or anything like that. So we're working with University of Florida New Nordics to basically to isolate and characterize this peptide and try to understand the regulatory system. System that controls DMT level. So what, the switch or the slider? Right. And so the idea being that we can, if we understand this regulatory system, we can learn how to hack it. And so rather than giving someone, injecting someone with dmt, we rather we can inject them with a small amount of a peptide, for example that will allow them to naturally slide into, be induced into the DMT state and kept that there for, you know, long periods of time. So we call this endodmtx or edmtx.
- [93:57]
Jesse Michaels
Is any of this playing with fire? Like, you know, I think about, we're, you know, we now can split the atom. We you know, know the genetic code of, you know, humans or we're still discovering stuff there but you know, we're starting to crack that and then we have, we have the ability to, if you find some peptide where you can, you know, just modulate this and even with the, the intravenous stuff can modulate it on and off, off. Is there something actually adaptive about not being in control of it? And whoever set up, you know, whatever world we're in, you know, having, having set it up in the, in the right sort of way, the sort of anthropic principle or something. It's, it's, it exists in sort of perfect amounts.
- [94:39]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, you could take that, many people think that. Right. And that's a very cautious attitude to take. But there's nothing natural about extracting from the most hostellous root bark with sodium hydroxide and zippo lighter fluid. This is, you're employing chemistry, you're employing technology to do this. So if that was the case, then ayahuasca would, you'd stop at ayahuasca, not even ayahuasca, because that itself is a technology. So then you're back to, well, you're back to not knowing what DMT is because you can't just ingest it. So you can't just consume the naturally occurring source of dmt. There's no way to do it. Yeah, right. You can't do it. You have to either combine it with this monoamine oxidase inhibitor and boil it down or you have to extract it. And so I don't see why one particular technology, one particular way of using DMT should be seen as the be all and end all of it. So, okay, we can extract it. This seems to me a stepping stone on the way to further development. And I just think that Rick Strassman's pure pharmaceutical grade DMT injected directly in the bloodstream was a step beyond extracting plant smoking or vaporizing plant extracts. And then now I think that DMTX is just the next iteration along that path. And ultimately I think, think, you know, I don't know where this is going, but I don't. I've never got the sense that, oh, we need to stop here, this is the way to use dmt. I don't, I think that doesn't really make any sense to me. So I think in the future, who knows how we're going to be using dmt? Will there be combinations of molecules that we're using? Will we be dispensing, as I said, with molecules altogether, with exogenous molecules and using, hacking our own endogenous DMT production system? And then you would, I can imagine a future where you're, you lie in a pod and all of your bodily needs are taken care of, you're fed, you might, you know, your oxygen supply is managed and your body may be cooled down, your Waste products are dealt with and you spend days, weeks, months, significant portions of your life to anyone observing you basically asleep in a pod.
- [97:04]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [97:05]
Andrew Gallimore
And to you, you would be interacting with. And ye. Yeah.
- [97:09]
Jesse Michaels
You know, which is, by the way, what we could be in now.
- [97:12]
Andrew Gallimore
Right.
- [97:12]
Jesse Michaels
Like that's, you know, we could be in the Matrix and we could just wake up and you're in some pod or whatever of jelly and you could have whatever, the hyper expanded version of DMT that ports you into this world or whatever.
- [97:24]
Andrew Gallimore
Right.
- [97:25]
Jesse Michaels
So it's like you end up in this sort of babushka doll model of reality.
- [97:28]
Andrew Gallimore
That's true. Or it could be that you're actually returning and that actually going to the pod is the way to return to your.
- [97:34]
Jesse Michaels
Sure.
- [97:35]
Andrew Gallimore
You're back to the pot. Back, back to the pod.
- [97:37]
Jesse Michaels
And people.
- [97:38]
Andrew Gallimore
That's kind of interesting because they say.
- [97:40]
Jesse Michaels
It'S realer than real. Right?
- [97:42]
Andrew Gallimore
And real. So this is actually. You're in a pod now.
- [97:44]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [97:45]
Andrew Gallimore
That when you go into the pod, whatever, and raise the DMT levels, you actually wake up in back and it.
- [97:52]
Jesse Michaels
Goes to Plato's Cave where it's like all we're seeing now is sort of simulacra. In fact, in the Matrix, the movie, he's looking at a book and it's. I think it's Jean Baudelard or whatever this Frank French. That's right. You know, simulacra and simulation or whatever. And it's like, you know, it's clearly the Wachowski siblings. They, you know, were paying homage to this sort of, you know, postmodern author that's writing about.
- [98:16]
Andrew Gallimore
Right.
- [98:17]
Jesse Michaels
Simulacra. It's just so, so fascinating.
- [98:19]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, yeah. And people do describe very. A very common feeling when they enter the DMT space is one of, I'm back, welcome. And they, you know, the lights are flashing. It's like, welcome home. Would you mean welcome home.
- [98:32]
Jesse Michaels
You do like a life review, right?
- [98:34]
Andrew Gallimore
And it's like this very strong sense of deja vu. Like, I've been here before. Not only have I been here before, but this is my true home. So maybe that's what's happening. Maybe we are on a path towards the state where we return. And does it. Does it look like lying in a pod and closing your eyes and raising your DMT levels in your brain through some technology? Maybe. Maybe it's something else that we don't yet understand.
- [99:00]
Jesse Michaels
I think, you know, consciousness is a sort of. It's a reduction mechanism on a default state of greater omniscience or something. And So I think it's this. Is. Is consciousness locally produced or is it sort of transmitted and ported into a receptor? That's inherently limited. And I would. I would say the latter, but it, you know, yeah, it does bring up all these. All these sorts of questions, but it goes back to this sort of Plato thing where in all these sort of mystery rituals across time and space, whether, you know, they deal with psychedelics or not, sometimes they just deal with sheer amounts of pain, like putting your hand in a glove full of bullet ants or whatever you are, temporarily. If the. If biology is a. Is a collapsing function on a defense default state of greater omniscience, you're killing that collapsing function temporarily and the person experiences sort of greater consciousness and awareness. And you'd expect this more sort of. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected, but many other places also have it and they might not be as keen.
- [100:10]
Andrew Gallimore
Careful.
- [100:10]
Jesse Michaels
That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply muted like, oh, it all just shut off and that. Now I'm back. Or I got turned back on. But it's not the mystery. Ritual kills the collapsing function and you get this sort of greater, you know, ontological reality. And then you come back and there. There's always this translation function issue. I think William James was like, writing in his diary about, like, you know, some. Some trip he had had or something. And like you, you end up writing mumbo jump, like just, you know, gobbly gook. It's like impossible to translate.
- [100:57]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah. And Terence McKenna used to say, a secret is not something untold. It is something that cannot be, cannot be told.
- [101:05]
Jesse Michaels
Oh, that is beautiful.
- [101:06]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [101:07]
Jesse Michaels
Isn't that beautiful? Awesome.
- [101:08]
Andrew Gallimore
I wish I'd thought of that. Yeah, yeah, but the unenglishable. And you have to. You L. You have to have the direct experience. You can't. You can bring back fragments, lower dimensional projections of this space and talk about it to some extent, but you. You cannot. And this is why it's so difficult spending my life talking about DMT is. Is what I really should say is just. Just go there, right? Then get back to me. Because people can't comprehend when I'm talking about entities or strange other worlds that in their head they're seeing this 1970s science fiction movie with little green men on. On a globe. They don't. There's no way for them to even conceive of what's actually going on in my head when I'm talking about this thing because it's unenglishable, you know, and so trying to English the unenglishable, to f. The uneffable, the ineffable. Yeah, put it like that is. Is very, very difficult. But. But it's not a completely hopeless tar. At least I can explain to people why, okay, there are certain aspects of this space that. That. That make it impossible and that mean the. That that the only conclusion we can draw from that is that there's more going on. On. There's more going on here than we can explain. If people come away from my work with that, then, yeah, kind of done my job. And the rest happens with a glass pipe and, you know, inhaling a couple of lungfuls of DMT vapor. That's the only 100 conversion.
- [102:47]
Jesse Michaels
Sure.
- [102:47]
Andrew Gallimore
Conversion technique.
- [102:49]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there's no. It's like a lot. If you're studying any of these fields, the work is actually in translating your ontology to the average person. It's not. It's also in, you know, working out the ontology itself, but it's. It. You have to do both, otherwise you end up on an island completely, you know, like. And there's just no interface with, you know, the rest of the world. So is. Is there something about DMT where, you know, I think it. It shows up right when you die. Is that right? And then does it show up at the womb? In the womb? Around, like. I remember reading Rick, Rick Strass, you know, dmt, spirit molecule, and he talks about it being maybe a part of identity formation. Is that. Are these things possible or has that been debunked? Because this was, you know, like probably 20 years ago he was writing this.
- [103:35]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, it's not been debunked. I mean, I think it's often the idea. So the dmt, the spirit molecule, came from Rick Strassman's idea that it's released at the point of death and he's like, provides the conduit by which the soul exits the body and enters the afterlife. This is a very obviously mystical spiritual hypothesis, but it's often, it's often repeated as if it's fact. Right. There's, you know, DMT is. Produces dreams and it's released in small amounts and then large amounts. Yeah, yeah, but both of These are hypotheses.
- [104:11]
Jesse Michaels
So we don't know that.
- [104:12]
Andrew Gallimore
We don't know that. However, the dream thing I don't think makes any sense because most dreams are not. Not anything like dmt. So people who think they're going to have a dreamlike experience when they take dmt, I'm sorry, but it's not going to be anything like any normal dream. So I don't. And there's no evidence that DMT is produced during REM sleep. So that one, I think is just. That was just, again, a hypothesis put out by a guy called J J Calloway in the 1980s. Terence McKenna often repeated it, perhaps giving a. He was a little bit more definitive than he should have been about that. But then the. The dying thing is more interesting. Whether or not it provides the means by which you can enter the afterlife, that's a different question, that's more of a metaphysical question. I don't think science is really going to get to the bottom of that. But the idea that it's released the point of death, actually, there is good evidence now that it could be. I don't think it's the pineal gland. The pineal gland is what Strassman thought. The pineal gland is a very, very tiny gland. It's about this big, the end of my little finger. It produces nanograms of melatonin. It's not set up to pump out large amounts of dmt, enough DMT to cause a breakthrough experience. But as I said, DMT is two steps from tryptophan, so other cells in the brain, potentially all neurons in the brain, could produce dmt. You don't need to rely on the pineal. And some recent studies showed some interesting things. Things firstly, that DMT levels in rodents, this was so not humans, but still mammals. DMT levels in awake living rodents were about the same as other neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. So it's not tiny amounts, it's not a breakthrough psychedelic level, but still produced in the same kind of quantities as other neurotransmitters, which is kind of cool, Right? So, so clearly the brain is diverting resources to producing dmt. Why? We don't know.
- [106:19]
Jesse Michaels
However, there's something functional.
- [106:21]
Andrew Gallimore
There's something functional there. And what's interesting is that when they sacrifice these rodents, sacrifice is such a weird word. They don't put them on an altar and light candles, they kill them. Right. So when they kill these rats, they actually have a technique now called microdialysis, where they're able to measure in real time DMT levels in a living rat, which wasn't available in all these decades ago when these hypothesis were originally proposed, but now they can. So they can measure DMT in the brain of a rodent and then they kill the rodent. And as the rodent dies, DMT levels rise, they spike. Now you also see this with other neurotransmitters, by the way. So it's not just dmt, but still. Okay, DMT levels are rising. That's in line with Strassman's model. No one's done that with a human. If you could get permission with somebody who was end of life, you know, perhaps on a life support machine.
- [107:23]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [107:24]
Andrew Gallimore
And during the dying process, could you get permission from them or their family members to, to draw their blood? That would be an experiment that could be done. Ethically, it's difficult, obviously.
- [107:37]
Jesse Michaels
Great.
- [107:37]
Andrew Gallimore
But yeah, but it could be done. Right. And what's interesting about DMT is that other studies have shown that when you take neurons and neurons are very sensitive to oxygen, they need oxygen. You deprive a neuron of oxygen, it dies. This is why strokes where you lose blood supply to certain areas of the brain are so devastating, because if you don't restore blood supply very, very quickly, areas of the brain die and you end up with severe disabilities or death. Death. What's interesting is that in a oxygen hypoxic, oxygen deprived environment, neurons will survive longer in the presence of dmt. Whoa. But they bind to a specific receptor called the sigma sigma 1 receptor, which, you know, a few decades ago we didn't know existed and, and has no other function. It's called an orphan receptor and that it's a receptor that's there, there, but nothing binds to it. We know now that DMT binds to it. So it's not a true orphan receptor because it binds to an endogenous molecule, dmt. So it binds to this receptor and it initiates a cascade of intracellular signaling that seems to somehow protect the neuron. So you can imagine during the dying process, as your respiratory system is collapsing, blood supply to the brain is diminishing, your brain is being starved of oxygen, DMT ramps up. And should you survive, the DMT has protected your brain during that period where you were dying. Does that make sense? Yeah. And now it doesn't answer the question of why.
- [109:14]
Jesse Michaels
So like prolonged it, like it bridges the neurons to your survival state or something.
- [109:20]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [109:20]
Jesse Michaels
Gives them a little, gives them a.
- [109:21]
Andrew Gallimore
Bit of wiggle, Right, Exactly. So the rest of the body can survive if you kind of resuscitated, for example, or your heart restarts or whatever, but your brain, that, that's going to be in trouble. So it needs a bit of extra protection.
- [109:34]
Jesse Michaels
Whoa.
- [109:34]
Andrew Gallimore
So the DMT seems to be doing that, so that fits in with the dying process. So maybe that's why it's released during death. It doesn't answer of course, why it send why this molecule also just happens to transport you to this alternate reality. So clearly there's a connection there. Does that mean that DMT has this kind of dual function? It's protecting the brain during the dying process. But if you actually do die, it also allows you to directly move into whatever happens after you die. You may be, maybe you are getting a glimpse. I mean, that's not a particularly nice thought. The idea of going permanently into the DMT space, I mean it's, you know, that, I guess that's where the preparation comes in of working within this space because it is kind of shocking and horrifying for many people. But maybe that's why it's important to work with DMT whilst you're still alive, because you're going to. This is the kind of, maybe this is where you're going to go after you die. I don't know. That's pure speculation. Yeah, but so, so in short, the whole DMT spirit molecule thing started as a pure speculation and now, okay, it all seems to hang together. The idea of DMT being released least during the dying process, which is kind of cool.
- [110:53]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, it's fascinating. GMO Borgagen at University of Michigan, she studies stuff around, you know, endogenous DMT receptors in the brain and stuff. But she also studies terminal lucidity, which I find very interesting. This idea that sometimes somebody can be in like a coma for a long time and then right before they die they seem to sort of wake up, be extremely alert and like back to their old selves or have dementia and right before they day it's this fascinating sort of phenomenology. Does that have anything to do with dmt? I just, I found it interesting that she both studies DMT and she looks into this or is that just a coincidence?
- [111:34]
Andrew Gallimore
I don't know if it's a coincidence. It might not be a coincidence. Whether this, this terminal lucidity has anything to do with DMT or is something else. I mean it might, DMT might be part of it. I mean, as I said, you get lots of, of quite dramatic changes in neural activity and these electrical storms and increases in various neurotransmitters and neuromodulators during the dying process. So it's, it's, you know, it's probably some emergent effect from all of this happening and DMT is just a part of it. That's my guess, but I don't really know.
- [112:07]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, yeah, very interesting. Do you think, you know Aldous Huxley, famous British, British author, but also kind of psychonaut. He, I think at the end of his life was, was dying and he asked his wife to give him an extremely high dose of lsd.
- [112:24]
Andrew Gallimore
That's right.
- [112:25]
Jesse Michaels
And he also said something very interesting, which I want to get your take on. He said that in the 21st century we would see a religion sort of induced by more mass psychedelic use and people would have more of an individual connection with like almost a Gnostic connection with God and the universe through these psychedelics. Do you think that that will happen? You know, sort of the Timothy Leary, like if you had LSD in the tap water sort of thing?
- [112:53]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I, I mean, a religion. I'm slightly fearful of the word religion and that it is a set of doctrines, a set of prescribed beliefs. So I would hope that this, this doesn't take the form of a religion. You see that kind of thing happening with DMT specifically where certain groups of people, often quite influential, who have decided that they've got a handle on things, they understand what DMT represents and they understand the entities and they understand how it connects to reality and how we should use DMT and all of this. And then they bring in followers and there are a number of small pockets. I mean, nothing ever become that's kind of consumed the space in any way, the DMT kind of community, if you want to use that word. But, but, but certainly I think the truth is that it's very difficult to not become, I wouldn't say religious, but spiritual, mystical, to accept that actually there's more to reality. And you know, you, you are confronted with that. It's undeniable when you take dmt, that there's more to reality and that we are but a very small fragment of reality. And when, when large numbers of people begin to accept that, then the question is, is, well, what, what do we do with that? You know, what do we, what do we do with an elf, as McKenna used to say, like, how do we take that fact and move with it? Does it require, does it require some kind of religious doctrinal structure or not? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's a question that bothers me. Like what, what is this all about? Where's this all going?
- [115:08]
Jesse Michaels
Bothers me too because I, I think I have the same inclinations as you, which is to directly experience, to push the boundaries on these things and to sort of like really know stuff for yourself to the extent you can't in. And then I wonder if it's sort of this horseshoe thing where you start off like super ignorant, then you seek truth in some like more objective sense about, you know, metaphysical reality. And then you realize there's like some overload or something like this is actually not adaptive for like a single human to know. And it's really all about like leading a good life on earth and understanding kind of the bounds of, of our, of our lives and our epistemology. And then, then you become sort of religious and you realize how adaptive religion is or something.
- [115:55]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean that's, it's like the path will reveal itself. I think. I try not to think too far ahead of where this is going because I don't know if I'm being completely honest, but I think we just keep moving forward carefully with humility. And I think the, the whole DMTX stuff, in my opinion, has been just another step along that path of using this molecule, trying to understand it as much as we can. Not going in with assumptions about what we're dealing with or what the, what the, the teleology is. You know, what is the, the ultimate aim of all of this? I don't, I don't, I speculate what it might look like, but I don't know know. I don't know if it's possible for us to know at this point. There could be some kind of phase transition that's necessary to take place before we can even comprehend. I mean, we don't really know what the next five years is going to look like. People are speculating on with AI and stuff, but I don't think anyone really knows.
- [116:59]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [116:59]
Andrew Gallimore
Where we're headed.
- [117:00]
Jesse Michaels
I agree. It's always this sort of some adjacent surprise or something. It's never the, Whenever people make predictions, I'm always skeptical. Like these sort of quote unquote futurists that sort of grift off of some, you know, for sure, you know, future vision that never, it never manifests the way they sort of say, yeah, do you believe in God?
- [117:23]
Andrew Gallimore
Well that came from left field.
- [117:26]
Jesse Michaels
Talk about religion.
- [117:28]
Andrew Gallimore
Do I believe in God? Well, I'm gonna give the kind of the obvious answer which is how do you define God? Fire that question back at you. You know, how do you define God? And people say, do you believe in God? Well, the God that's in your head is probably quite different to the God in my head. So I could answer that, yes, I could answer that, no. And be truthful in both cases, depending on how you define God.
- [117:54]
Jesse Michaels
But you could use that sort of post modern breakdown of language to like, you know, retort any sort of question.
- [118:02]
Andrew Gallimore
That's true. And I'm not trying to be annoying. Postmodernist.
- [118:06]
Jesse Michaels
No, no, I get it. God is especially undefined.
- [118:09]
Andrew Gallimore
Jordan Peterson or something.
- [118:10]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, Peter Peterson's hilarious because he hates the postmodernists. But he is so postmodern in the way he speaks, right?
- [118:18]
Andrew Gallimore
He speaks.
- [118:19]
Jesse Michaels
He's so like, he hate. He thinks that all that stuff, you know, Foucault or whatever is the reason that like society is in decline. And then when you call him out and you debate him on this stuff, it's, it turns into this postmodern gobbledygook where he's like, what'd you stake your life on? What are you talking about, dude? Like you're, you are making no sense.
- [118:38]
Andrew Gallimore
But in this case, I think it's valuable because people do have different conceptions of God. Now if you mean, do I mean a higher being that created the universe that we, that we, that we should worship, then no, I don't believe in that. But do I believe that there is some kind of intelligence that is non human, non physical that we can't directly interact with normally? Perhaps that has been around a lot longer than we have. Well, I can't help but believe that. I mean, I've. When you, when you smoke dmt, you interact with such intelligences. Do I think there's one grand intelligence?
- [119:15]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [119:16]
Andrew Gallimore
That subsumes all of these? Maybe, maybe, maybe God is con. You know, you could take the, the more vedant or ancient Hindu answer that question, which is to say, well, God is everything. God is consciousness. God is the ultimate reality. There is nothing that isn't God. I like that idea as well. And that you. We are all the million. Who was it? T.K. chesterton. G.K. chesterton. It talks about the million masks of God and that's. We're all masks of God. You know, the eye with which I see God is the, the eye with which I see God is the same eye with which God sees me. And they were all expressions of. And we, there's no escaping that. We're all part of. And expressions of masks of the ultimate reality which you might call God. I Hindu might call Brahma, somebody else might call the ultimate reality that, which is that idea I, I kind of sympathetic towards as well. And I kind of feel like that I think consciousness is fundamental in some very deep, profound way. I don't think we're going to explain consciousness in terms of physicalism or in terms of neural activity or anything like that. I think it's beyond that. I think it's absolutely fundamental. And so, yes, Ab, I, the answer to your question is I believe in God, but perhaps not the God as you might define it, but as the God as I would define it.
- [120:56]
Jesse Michaels
What do you think about this buddy Danny, who does these DMT laser diffraction experiments? I'm sure you get asked this all the time where people take dmt, there's some sort of laser intersection and then they look at it and they claim to see some sort of almost like code that they, I mean, that's their interpretation, like a code that is, you know, the computation behind the universe or something. What do you think about this?
- [121:24]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, do I think that he is and other people are seeing the fundamental code that runs our reality? No, I don't think that at all. I don't. I think the idea that reality is computational or there's some kind of code. Okay, that's possible. The idea that you could look at it and it would look like characters that we recognize, like Japanese Katakana and, and Hebrew and stuff like this. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, and that's what they're seeing. And it's no coincidence that the Matrix movie we're talking about, I mean, the Code Rain, that famous green running digital imagery that's built from Japanese Katakana. So it seems like a little bit on the nose there. A little bit. So no, I don't think, I think it doesn't make any sense to me is the broad thing. And I also think the problem is that lasers. It's an inconvenient coincidence, shall we say, that when you shine a laser on a wall without DMT exhibits some very unusual optical effects. So it forms this interference pattern on the retina that looks like kind of a matrix of speckles or matrix of points of light that can appear to extend beyond the surface. This is all without dmt. Now when you add DMT to the mix, you see this matrix of characters and geometric forms that appear to extend well beyond the surface. And you have to believe that these are completely unrelated. And that's just a coincidence. If you are to accept the. You're seeing actual Code here. So I think my working hypothesis, which might well be wrong is that, but needs to be eliminated is that this, these, this matrix of sensory. And you've basically got a matrix of points of light which on the retina which act like a sensory scaffold around which under the influence of dmt you see complex forms and characters because characters are very common in the DMT space as are complex geometric structures. So I think it's a very interesting, fascinating phenomenon and very important one in that it allows you to isolate a particular fragment of the broader DMT phenomenology, the reporting of code and geometric forms that I will get on board with. I think it should be studied. Do I accept, do I think, think that it, the fundamental code that he somehow stumbled upon the way, a way of seeing this fundamental code of reality which just happens to look like code as we would imagine code. I mean you imagine code, you imagine the matrix and that's kind of what it's looking at here. I think I'm not ready to make that leap yet.
- [124:15]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, that seems unlikely to me too. I think the thing that is, is interesting about it is you are doing a repeatable physical thing and then people see, you know, ostensibly similar, you know, a similar phenomena in the form of whatever these symbols are. Whatever, which is like. That's cool. I mean even that is sort of somewhat unprecedented.
- [124:35]
Andrew Gallimore
Yes. But then again the, the laser light is providing a very regular pattern of sensory inputs.
- [124:42]
Jesse Michaels
Sure.
- [124:43]
Andrew Gallimore
So that account and the fact that these.
- [124:46]
Jesse Michaels
But you don't see the symbols when you're not on dmt. Right.
- [124:49]
Andrew Gallimore
You don't see. Exactly, exactly.
- [124:51]
Jesse Michaels
So that's cool. That's interesting.
- [124:52]
Andrew Gallimore
That's interesting. Yeah. But then again, are people seeing. People say the line that you always hear from these, these laser people is everyone sees exactly the same thing. Now what does that mean? That everyone sees code or everyone sees characters. Fine. Does everyone see exactly the same characters in the same order at the same time? No, we don't know that. There's no way, no one's demonstrated that. It's not even possible. It's not even known if that's possible because they apparently they move very, very quickly. So are people seeing the same thing or are people kind of seeing the sort of. The same thing? But because again, the language problem, I can't take a. You can't take a photograph of this code, so you can't compare. You have to rely on language and you have to rely on little sketches and things that people do. But there's no way so far to demonstrate that two people, even at the same time, are actually seeing exactly the same code. And people, as I said, people have been describing code and digits and characters in the DMT state for decades. So it's like what's unique, unique and interesting and important about this is that it allows you to kind of isolate that particular aspect and reliably view that particular aspect of the broader DMT visual phenomenology. But anything beyond that, to make, you know, deeper, deep conclusions about the fundamental structure of our reality that you're seeing the code that runs our reality, I think that is a very, very large leap. And I don't think there's any, there's nothing in the effect, the phenomenon that would, would lead one to draw that conclusion. You have to start by eliminating lots of other more mundane hypotheses, which takes time, it takes money, it takes very careful experimental setup and, you know, performing of various experiments to be able to eliminate the influence of this laser interference, speckle effect, as it's called. But that needs to be done because otherwise it's going to be private revelation. They're going to be people who do it and believe and they're going to form a group who all believe in this. But they have no, they're not able to demonstrate or prove that this is what they are actually seeing. But they all have convinced themselves that's what they're seeing. They're seeing the fundamental code of reality. And you, you'd get it forms a kind of religion if you like, where you have the believers and you have the non believers. I'm not ready to kind of fall in with, with the believers just yet.
- [127:36]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, well, what do you think of modern UFO disclosure? Do you track that at all? Do you think it reduces down to these sort of altered states of consciousness? Or do you believe we have saucers and, you know, hangers at places like Area 51?
- [127:51]
Andrew Gallimore
Well, I mean, the Area 50, I mean, that's cool stuff, right? I mean, I don't, I'm not an expert on it, so I don't, I follow certain things. Right. When Bob Lazar speaks, when he's on Rogan, I watched that thought. That's fascinating stuff, but I don't know. I don't know what to make of it all. And so I kind of focus on my thing. My thing is the, not the, the shimmering metallic discs in the sky, which might not be physical, of course. I mean, they might also be. They also seem to kind of of occupy this space between the physical and the non physical, the forming Feats that seem to be beyond what a physical object could achieve. And I think that's perhaps gives us a clue as to their nature. And we might be dealing with intelligences that don't necessarily exist as physical wet bodied beings on other star systems and are traveling through vast distances to reach our planet, but actually occupy some kind of, of space that is lying parallel, hidden within, amongst whatever, orthogonal to whatever our reality. And that they can interface in certain ways with our.
- [128:58]
Jesse Michaels
Or physics is information theoretic like you write about.
- [129:01]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly.
- [129:02]
Jesse Michaels
You know, John Wheeler or whatever. And you know, a bunch of people have sort of contemplate, if you have all this, you know, Wolfram physics and stuff, computational physics, then what if they are just the programmers of our reality? Like they, they, they, they understand the source code in a way that we. And there's a lot in physics that kind of points to that. There's like, you know, you have what like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where you know, you can't measure position and momentum, you know, simultaneously in very accurate ways. Like one gets more fuzzy as the other gets more accurate. That almost looks like a, like a computational caching function or something where only so much can be stored in local memory, you know, or like anthropic principle where if Planck's constant were slightly different like we wouldn't really have an atmosphere on. Right. Like there are all these sort of weird Goldilocks or like Fermat's theory where like you know, light between two points or whatever takes the most optimal computationally efficient path. There are all these things like that Fibonacci sequences and golden ratios and stuff. It's like how do people code? They just transport, you know, code library. I mean now it's probably mostly like copilots and AI, but you know, back in the day it was like you'd like find like libraries of code and you would, you know, you'd transport code chunks or whatever. And like that's how they. So it's like you would reuse geometrically efficient patterns like over and over again. Like that just exists like across nature.
- [130:27]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly. So there's so much in the brain as well. I mean the brain again is this, you have these repeating computational, the fundamental, these columns, you know, the brain, it's like this, the cortex, you have all of these cylindrical columns which is the basic computational unit of the brain and you stitch them all together and all of the function of your, of your cortex arises from the interaction of all these basic computational units. So it's at every level, level at every level you see that of stitching together of simpler units that from which higher order behaviors emerge. And that goes all the way down perhaps to the ground of reality itself.
- [131:10]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [131:10]
Andrew Gallimore
You have these very simple rules, you know, and it might, you know, running a universe might be extremely simple. If you know the rules.
- [131:20]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah.
- [131:20]
Andrew Gallimore
If you find a way to run all possible. This is something I explore in Alien information theory. The idea that if you, if you, if you know all possible rules, which is just, you know, the permutation on all possible rules, all possible rule sets, you just run them all. You have the computational power, you run all of them and some, most of them do absolutely nothing. Some of them do something a little bit interesting and then die out. And then maybe a tiny, tiny fraction, you start to develop layered complexity, emergent complexity. And we just happen to be in one of those hundred trillion, trillion or whatever universes where, where the rule set gives rise to interesting information.
- [132:02]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah, well, Wolfram has this, you know, Stephen Wolfram has this sort of institute where he studies these computational versions of physics and he has this idea of computational irreducibility.
- [132:11]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [132:12]
Jesse Michaels
And there are things that you cannot take as first principle. You know, a priori concepts. You need to run a program in order to get that result. You have cellular automaton, Conway's Game of Life, and all these things where if you set some initial conditions. Yeah. Maybe you end up with some final branch that works or whatever, but like, there are a lot of branches that don't. And then you have to ask this like, meta question of if, you know, is our earthly conflict. You know, Trump just took out, you know, three Iranian nuclear sites with, with you know, some B2s. Is all of that existing, you know, against some sub rosa backdrop of like some timeline adjustment conflict or something? Like, is that the true cosmic, you know, the like, Upanishad style war or whatever? Where, you know, if you really think about like, what's the most scarce commodity? It's not gold. It's not like, like, like, you know, the last 50 years of American foreign policy has been like, sort of dictated by like, you know, crude oil or whatever. Like, it's not those things. Right. It's. It's time.
- [133:21]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [133:21]
Jesse Michaels
And it's timelines and it's like literal, like, you know, macro, like events that, that occur on, on, on macro scales. So, like, is, are these entities sort of fighting over that or something? Answer that question now, Andrew.
- [133:39]
Andrew Gallimore
I don't know.
- [133:40]
Jesse Michaels
Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Well, thank you so much for. I'm just gonna end on that absurd question. Thank you. I really appreciate this man and I Everybody should go buy your book. Death by Astonishment. Anything else you want to.
- [133:54]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah.
- [133:54]
Jesse Michaels
Plug or promote or.
- [133:55]
Andrew Gallimore
Yeah, I mean so Death by Astonishment, that's the book about DMT and describes the history of science's struggle to make sense of it. So if you're really interested in what DMT is about and why it's such an enigmatic and mysterious molecule. Red Death by astonishment. But also if you're anyone who's interested in dmtx the moment it's like it's a small number of academic institutions that are running dmtx but we actually are developing a retreat center and a research center in the Caribbean. What's it? St. Vincent and the Grenadines. That's all. So we have a research, research center and retreat center that we're developing now. And the idea being not just doing research with DMT but also allowing anyone who wants to, to come and experience DMTX in a beautiful tropical, you know, five star environment with all of the preparation, perhaps several different doses, dose level before the kind of the breakthrough DMTX experience. All of the setting is just beautiful in the integration afterwards it will be a unique institute.
- [135:06]
Jesse Michaels
Do you have any adverse experiences with dmtx, anybody?
- [135:11]
Andrew Gallimore
So far?
- [135:11]
Jesse Michaels
Great.
- [135:12]
Andrew Gallimore
So far all of the subjects at Imperial College got through it. There was no major problem. It was very intense. Yeah, maybe some of them didn't kind of like it and didn't do the full set of of experiments but no like severe, you know, physiological adverse effects and of course we no severe mental.
- [135:36]
Jesse Michaels
No like this really me up, nothing like that.
- [135:38]
Andrew Gallimore
And of course on the island we will have anesthesiologists, we have psychiatrists and nurses. So if people want to sign up they can go to new nortics.org n double o n a u t I c s newnautics.org and they can find out more about it there or elusive mind. So Lucis is the actual name of the, of the retreat. So it's like that's bringing the new elusive, the new elusis. Yeah. So elusismind.com and they can also you know, have a look at what the retreat center is going to look like. So, so yeah, that's kind of an exciting thing to be able to, to kind of bring DMTX to anyone who wants to kind of experience it.
- [136:23]
Jesse Michaels
Super cool and exciting. It's funny, I think you know Albert Hoffman who discovered lsd, Stanislav Grof and Carl Ruck all maybe this is a rumor, but I think they wanted to create a new Elusis. And so it's cool that you're naming it that.
- [136:38]
Andrew Gallimore
Yes, it won't be with Urgot, but we do have a weird. We have a license from the government in St. Vincent, the Grenadines, to work with any drug that we want. So we. So it's not implausible that we might think about, you know, ergot alkaloids and perhaps recreating the true Elysinian mysteries. And there are people now working on actually reconstructing that and trying to work out the exact chemistry involved.
- [137:04]
Jesse Michaels
Rescue is really trying to. That's his sort of follow. Follow up journey.
- [137:08]
Andrew Gallimore
Exactly. And there are people that followed on from his work as well, chemists and pharmacologists. So it's. It's an exciting time to be interested in psychedelics and an exciting, very interesting time to be alive more generally, of course.
- [137:19]
Jesse Michaels
But I agree everything's spinning out and getting weird, but it's interesting. Okay. Andrew, I really appreciate this, man. This is a lot of fun and go by death by astonishment and alien information theory and yeah, hopefully we can do this again, again at some point.
- [137:34]
Andrew Gallimore
Awesome, awesome.
- [137:35]
Jesse Michaels
Thank you, thank you.