This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites"

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels | Guest: Greg Mallozzi | May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this riveting and information-dense episode, host Jesse Michels sits down with filmmaker Greg Mallozzi to discuss Mallozzi's ten-year investigation into the life of Andrija Puharich, a mid-century CIA-connected physician, mind control researcher, and parapsychology pioneer. Through Mallozzi’s documentary "Mind Traveler" and newly uncovered archives, the two unravel Puharich’s deep entanglement with government mind control programs, secret experiments, elite occult seances, and the mysterious "Nine"—a purportedly extraterrestrial council channeled by psychics under his direction. The conversation dives into connections between intelligence agencies, MKUltra, the UFO phenomenon, and the tangled web of high-strangeness at the intersection of advanced technology, psychic phenomena, and Cold War intrigue.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Andrija Puharich: Origins and Early Influences

• Medical and Military Background
  • Puharich began as a medical student at Northwestern (1947), showing early talent in neurophysiology.
  • He participated in the Army Specialized Training Program—a recruitment pipeline for promising minds, which also included figures like Kissinger and Kurt Vonnegut. (03:06–05:31)
• Introduction to the Paranormal and Intelligence Channels
  • Mentored by Warren S. McCullough, a then-CIA-courted ESP researcher at Northwestern.
  • McCullough would later recommend Puharich directly to the CIA and Navy. (06:36–07:59)

2. The Roundtable Foundation: Shadow Science & Seances

• Funding and Operation
  • Puharich established the Roundtable Foundation in Rockland, Maine with funding from vice president Henry Wallace plus the Astors and DuPonts—but Mallozzi’s research shows the CIA, Army, and Navy also financed it. (09:47–11:17)
• Experiments
  • Early tests included classic ESP, remote viewing (preceding SRI’s later work), and innovative use of Faraday cages to enhance psychic abilities. (15:29–17:45)
  • Aldous Huxley was a frequent visitor; experiments with Amanita muscaria mushrooms (the “sacred mushroom”) to induce psychic states were key research. (16:41–17:45)
• Occult Channeling and The Nine
  • In 1952, Puharich hosted psychic Dr. Vinod, who entered trance and channeled "The Nine," purportedly universal cosmic principles or extraterrestrial intelligences.
  • Seances involved blue-blooded elites (Dupont, Astor, Forbes, etc.), and the transcripts featured automatic writing and technical instructions for channeling improvements. (20:05–29:56)

3. Espionage, Psyops & Mind Control

• MKUltra and Intellectron Corp.
  • Puharich closed the Roundtable citing funding issues (though Army money continued); he then established Intellectron Corp. in early 1960s NYC and Ossining, NY, funded by the Atomic Energy Commission to research hearing devices, which included phononic-based mind messaging. (43:16–49:23)
  • Devices like the TD100 and tooth implants enabled direct transmission of messages to the human brain—via bone conduction, extra-low frequencies, and potentially without the subjects’ knowledge.
  • These breakthroughs were demonstrated to the Pentagon and described by Puharich himself:

    “We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fitted this device to this general...he said, 'God damn it, I hear it.'” (62:25)

• Collaboration with Mind Control Pioneers
  • Close associations with Dr. Jose Delgado, famed for remotely controlling bulls by neural implants, and with other CIA/Army contractors. (51:37–54:03)
• Potential Connection to JFK/Oswald and Elite Psyops
  • White House socialite Ruth Forbes Payne, involved in Puharich's seances, later housed Lee Harvey Oswald.
  • Mallozzi’s interviews suggest on the day of JFK’s assassination, men in suits visited Intellectron and Puharich was notably shaken. (39:03–46:23)

4. The Nine, Channelers & The Space Kids Program

• Protocols & Technology in Channeling
  • The Nine gave instruction to use specially-built copper Faraday cages for “clearer transmissions."
  • Session transcripts often featured not just new age philosophy but equations, technical designs, and protocols for channeling.
  • Many participants had to wear copper bracelets to enhance reception, a detail recounted by surviving “space kids.” (28:14–31:55)
• Children & Psychic Contagion
  • In the 1970s, kids (“space kids”) who watched Uri Geller on TV reported spontaneous psychic episodes.
  • Puharich gathered several for controlled research—testing and attempting to amplify group psychic phenomena and remote viewing.
  • These young subjects were not seeking attention; many later sought to distance themselves from their experiences. (119:39–124:56)
• The Trickster Problem: Manipulation or Contact?
  • Mallozzi is direct about ambiguity: some sessions were clearly guided by suggestive hypnosis, while others produced unprompted Nine “contact.”
  • Evidence, including SRI paystubs, links Puharich’s Lab 9 (his house in Ossining, NY) to more formal psychic espionage programs. (126:04–132:13)

5. Cultural Impact, Elites & High Strangeness

• Intersection with Pop Culture & Space Programs
  • Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek, attended Nine channeling sessions and drafted a script, “The Nine,” based on them. The “Deep Space Nine” series includes names and concepts taken from these events. (108:09–110:59)
  • NASA astronauts, including Gordon Cooper, visited Lab 9, and telepathy/remote viewing with astronauts was explored by Puharich. (106:55–108:09)
• Connections to UFO Legacy and Science
  • Collaborations and mutual interests tied Puharich to figures like Wernher von Braun (showing Roswell artifacts to Uri Geller), and Itzhak Bentov (Israeli science and consciousness pioneer). Many of his circle later died tragically or mysteriously (fires, accidents, disappearances). (88:42–114:45)
• The Valerie Ransohne Enigma
  • A Nixon-era White House official and deep UFO channeler sometimes associated with “space kids,” Ransohne is an elusive, possibly intelligence-connected figure whose appearance is debated even among those who knew her.
  • Testimonies suggest she played a central, possibly clandestine, role in linking high-level government, mind research, and UFO communities. (187:14–205:41)

6. The Nine: Real Intelligence or Manufactured Control?

• Implanting Beings or Contacting Them?
  • Both Jesse and Greg speculate on whether the Nine were genuinely “contacted” or their presence was manufactured by Puharich’s suggestive techniques and psychotronic devices:

    “The evidence would point to the latter.” — Greg Mallozzi, on whether the Nine were real extraterrestrial intelligences or a synthetic product of social/technological manipulation (131:26–131:34)

  • Still, some sessions and witnesses defy easy explanation—ranging from blue energy phenomena to group UFO sightings.
• Cynicism and Belief:
  • The discussion acknowledges the nuanced “yes, and…” answer: mind control, hypnosis, and genuine anomalous contact likely overlap in psyche experiments.

    “With Buharich, it’s always that question...is this real research or was it just all MK Ultra?” (132:19–134:28)

7. Implications for Modern Disclosure and Psy Warfare

• Mix of Truth and Disinformation
  • Mallozzi warns that, as in the past, current disclosure efforts may intermingle genuine findings with engineered narratives for psyops and strategic advantage.
  • Both agree the historical record of programs like MKUltra, mind control, and psychic espionage is still being written, influencing present-day disclosures.
• Recurring Themes in Modern Research
  • The episode points to the recycling of cypherpunk, psi, and psychedelic research, now resurging—possibly as part of a new military/corporate agenda or as an emergent truth.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On the possibility of mind control as the root explanation:

“One neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control. But then you get into the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often."
- Jesse Michels (00:59, 82:35)

On the science and reality of 'voices in the head' tech:

“We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fitted this device to this general, and we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting. And he said, God damn it, I hear it. God damn it, I hear it.”
- Andrija Puharich (62:25)

On conflicting nature of paranormal research:

“Sometimes they’re tricking you and sometimes it’s real, sometimes it isn’t.”
- Greg Mallozzi (132:19)

On the role of genuine belief among the participants:

“He really was a genuine believer… I just think he got sort of under the thumb of the intelligence world early on, and I just don’t think that he could kind of get away from that.”
- Greg Mallozzi (134:29)

On cultural resonance:

"I think the most interesting pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers..."
- Jesse Michels (116:01)

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Timestamped Highlights

• 00:11 – Greg Mallozzi: "He really was a genuine believer."
• 03:06–05:31 – Origins of Puharich’s medical and military career, links to secret Army program.
• 09:47–11:17 – Roundtable Foundation funds and origins; secret government patronage.
• 20:05–29:56 – Channeling the Nine, the role of elite seances, blue-blooded attendees, and automatic writing.
• 43:16–49:23 – The Intellectron era: mind control tech, the “hearing aids” and Pentagon demo.
• 51:37–54:03 – Puharich & Jose Delgado, remote-controlled bull experiments.
• 62:25 – Puharich describes Pentagon demonstration of mind-messaging via tooth implants.
• 88:42–114:45 – NASA ties, Star Trek’s origin, and elite participation: Roddenberry, astronauts, bentov, von Braun.
• 119:39–124:56 – The “space kids” program, and the psychic contagion of Uri Geller.
• 131:26–131:34 – Mallozzi: “The evidence would point to the latter.” (on the synthetic creation of the Nine).
• 146:55–155:21 – Puharich’s mysterious death, suspected surveillance and cover-ups, coinciding with Stargate’s closure and Grinberg’s disappearance.
• 187:14–205:41 – The Valerie Ransohne mystery: Nixon White House, connections with Gordon Cooper, and the channeling of “space kid” knowledge.
• 208:24–215:03 – Implications for modern UFO, psi, and disclosure movements.

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Memorable/Striking Moments

• Widespread Government Involvement: From Army Specialized programs to the AEC and Office of Naval Intelligence, Puharich remained in the crosshairs of high-level intelligence. (209:53–210:53)
• Secret Tech Demos: Implanting devices to send voices into a general's head at the Pentagon—described approvingly as a breakthrough, and chillingly as a tool for mind manipulation.
• Elite Seances & Deep State Connections: Attendees at the Roundtable’s Nine channelings overlap with figures linked to pivotal American events (e.g., Oswald and the JFK assassination).
• Quiet Disappearances: The pattern of unexplained deaths, disappearances, or erasures surrounding key figures (Grinberg, Bentov, “Sharon,” Ransohne).
• Psychic Experiments with Children: The direct, Stranger Things-like recruitment and testing of “space kids” for genuine psychic (and potentially psyop-related) capabilities.
• Revelations on Cover Programs: Lab 9 and Intellectron described as “obvious fronts,” with psychic research as both bona fide experiment and diversionary cover.
• The Blurred Line: Recurring theme—the boundary between manipulation and genuine contact (with UFOs, the Nine, etc.) remains provocatively uncertain.

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode provides a rare, deep dive into the complex web of psychic research, intelligence agency operations, and UFO lore that swirled around Andrija Puharich and his associates. Mallozzi’s cautious yet revealing investigation uncovers both the technical and metaphysical ambition of Cold War-era clandestine science—and the very real costs and ambiguities faced by those caught in its currents. The lingering question: Was the Nine a product of mind control, the first deep-state engineered alien contact myth—or something profoundly real?

For those interested in secret American science, intelligence and psychic experimentation, or the roots of modern UFO disclosure, "Mind Traveler" (and this interview) open tantalizing new avenues for research and speculation.

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Where to Watch

• “Mind Traveler” will be available for purchase on iTunes, YouTube, and as part of Age of Disclosure bundles.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Interviewer]

All these people conducting the seance were bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods. But it's like a council.

[Greg Mallozzi]

He really was a genuine believer.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

I'm Andrija Puharich. I'm a physician by training, research scientist by choice.

[Greg Mallozzi]

We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

What?

[Greg Mallozzi]

And they brought through this information. Apparently they're channeling this Egyptian God and

[Interviewer]

there are specifically nine Egyptian gods.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So he gets this call OF METALLIC voice. That was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. This is what you know. You hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff like these. These people, like weren't looking to be in the spotlight. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids. It's like Stranger Things in real life.

[Interviewer]

You know. One neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Delgado implanted radio receivers and the heads of bull. Delgado has remote control of the animal.

[Interviewer]

You have a guy who's being able to play the bull like a video game.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

I'm revealing for the first time a lot of things that even my closest working colleagues do not know.

[Greg Mallozzi]

There's reason to believe Buharich may have been a double agent. He says it really.

[Interviewer]

This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done. Man.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Ignition sequence. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Their existence cannot longer be denied.

[Interviewer]

I'm here with Greg Mallozzi. This has been a long time coming. We've had a lot of interesting offline conversations. You made an amazing documentary called Mind Traveler about this very mysterious mid century scientist named Andrea Puharich who is like this zelig of American conspiracies. He's this architect of MK Ultra and early CIA mind control techniques, but also seems to be channeling aliens through what he calls the space kids. This like collection of kids who he recruits who are psychic. He's the inspiration for Star Trek, incidentally. Like, he is one of the most interesting people I've ever encountered. And you've made this amazing documentary on him. So I just can't wait to dive into this. And I appreciate you being here.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate you having me.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. So give me a little bit about the origin story for Andrej Puharich. Who is he and how did he come to be one of these kind of renegade, spooky scientists involved in mind control?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I guess you could start it at Northwestern University. He went there. He was a medical student. I think he started in 47. And so he was there doing all sorts of stuff with the nervous system. He was very interested in that. And he was doing like normal medical training. And he was actually part of the army specialized training program. Have you heard of this?

[Interviewer]

No.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It's this special program where basically they recruit students who they believe could be useful to whatever they're planning on doing in certain categories of the army, whether it be medical, so forth. He was a medical doctor and he was part of this program. It's very strange. Kissinger was part of this program. Really a bunch of other weird people. Kurt Vonnegut, the author.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, you could look it up. It's really weird. So he was part of that. Basically, it was sort of a recruiting program. And they saw something in him all the way back in 47 when he was a medical student. And he very rarely. In fact, I've never even heard him mention this in all the stuff I've listened to and read about him. So for whatever reason, he didn't talk about it. And that could have been his first step into that world, the military world. But that happened when he was a medical student, way before the Roundtable foundation, the first lab he had, or anything like that.

[Interviewer]

So what did this military program, this army program involve?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Even on Wikipedia, there's not much about it. But again, I think it was more like looking at certain institutions, certain places for people who are special. I mean, army specialized training. And he was considered special at that time for what he was doing and they just saw something in him and he was brought into that program. I don't know what it did exactly or, you know, what, like, yeah, the day to day or anything, but he was part of it as well as like, again, a list of other people, like, in all areas. Right. Again, Kurt Vonnegut, the author. Like, all these people were a part of that.

[Interviewer]

Where was he a medical student?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Northwestern. Chicago, which, you know, is a very prestigious school. Absolutely.

[Interviewer]

Evanston. And I think also Jalen Hynek was, you know, as astronomer Blue Book was Northwestern too.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So he's in the Chicago suburbs and he's a medical student. How does he get into, like telepathy and mind control and things like that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I came up with the theory of the nervous system that I called the Puharich theory. I visualized the nervous system as being embedded in the cell tissue of the body, just as the roots of a tree are embedded in the ground, which gives it nourishment. But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky. Perhaps man does as well. And he too, gains nourishment through a touchless process. And if dynamics can be transferred, why can't thoughts? So he was a medical student, and there's a guy also at Northwestern at the time named Warren S. McCullough. Do you know who that is?

[Interviewer]

No, who's that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

You could do an episode on him. He's like a Puharich on steroids, sort of, back then, at least. But he was this very far out researcher into basically ESP stuff back then. He was very interested in, you know, altering drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind altering stuff for the audience.

[Interviewer]

ESP is extrasensory perception.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yes, yeah, yeah. Extra perception. So he was at Northwest, and this guy, McCullough, I think I'm pronouncing that right, but he sort of took Puharich under his wing and from what I understand, was the first person who introduced him to, you know, whatever weird science, if you want to call it that. Because he was one of these guys, McCullough, who would on his off time do all these strange experiments with radio frequencies and that kind of stuff. And I think in the academic setting, he had to put on a suit and tie and not talk about that, basically. But he also was very involved in intelligence stuff. He was always getting sort of like, we have letters from CIA and stuff back then who were kind of going to him with questions and so forth.

[Interviewer]

McCullough.

[Greg Mallozzi]

McCullough, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. And he actually, there was an archive in, I think it wasn't Northwestern. It was some bizarre archive I found years ago making the film. And, you know, I know you had Annie Jacobson on, like, she's in the film, and she was trying to find records on McCullough because, you know, it was really interesting. It was part of the Puhari story. And somehow we found this, like, big stash of archives of his that, again, were these letters from CIA and the Navy and everything, sort of, I guess, wanting to recruit him. But in those letters, there were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying, you should check this guy Puharich out. You know, he's. I work with him. He's young, he's very smart. And he was older, like, much older than Buharich at that time. I think he was probably like, you know, in his 70s or 80s or something. So, you know, he passed on. But basically that, I think, triggered Buharich get very interested in the subject. So he became almost like obsessed with it. And he sort of had this moment back then where he's like, I'm either Gonna choose the traditional academic path or I'm gonna choose the, you know, path of esp telepathy. And he talks very openly about, like, making that choice. I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, Vice President under Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money. Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Astors and the Duponts.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in 48 in Maine. We lived in a big 50 room house on the seashore, which was a lab in residence and so on. It was called the Roundtable Foundation.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And so he opens the Roundtable Foundation. So there's a lot going on with how that even opened because it's a huge lab. It's like a massive barn. It's on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine, it's called. So, you know, it's this huge place. He's got like a staff, you know. And the thing with Puharich, I learned, like, he tells a different story of how the Roundtable started and how we got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on.

[Interviewer]

What'd you figure out?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, it was all, you know, government funded at that time. Who funded it was the CIA or everyone. Army, Navy, CIA, something called the Something Armor foundation that was somehow tied into the Army. But basically any of those places back then, I mean, we have letters of all of them, Arminit, you name it. I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research. And this was. Yeah, 49, 50, very early.

[Interviewer]

Fascinating. And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, Anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist, reductionist physics that might be able to be weaponized or confer a tactical advantage to the United States.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It's complex, but yes. The short answer is yes. But I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real? I mean, he speaks a lot. And we uncovered hundreds of tape recordings of his that no one's ever heard. And so he talks a lot about. They were just obsessed at that time with, like, what if this were real? What are the implications? What if somebody could basically remote view. I mean, he was doing remote viewing. And this is something like, I don't think is really out there, like, way, way before Sri 70s. Like, we're talking early 50s. He's basically doing what would be considered remote viewing.

[Interviewer]

Do you think Hal Puthoff was aware of Puharich's kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing? Because the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, I'm not trying to make bold statements that's not true. If you're looking at it from research. When did this start? Because we have all of the Roundtable research which is so much, I mean even all the time we spent on the film, I still haven't looked at it all. But they basically detail the experiments going on which were your classic ESP stuff. Like the cards. Yep, all that. But no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing. And so yeah, I think they were, they the, you know, intelligence community, so forth were just very intrigued with what was going on there.

[Interviewer]

So it's a combination of kind of, you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue blooded elites. Yeah, sort of. And what exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?

[Greg Mallozzi]

So

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[Interviewer]

What exactly is going on there? So who is he recruiting to do these experiments? And what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff. You know, can somebody pick up on what's written on a letter in the other room? A lot of. Yeah, like the card guessing. And then he obviously built a Faraday cage there. And I think, you know, was one of the first people, as far as I understand, doing ESP tests in a Faraday cage where basically he would put people who claimed to be psychic in the cage. And it was his belief that that could sort of block out anything from the outside, and it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do.

[Interviewer]

And he had. I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable foundation, right? And obviously, Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but also the Doors of Perception, where he talks about his experience with mescal. And if you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking, like in Perennial Philosophy, he's like, clearly this kind of deep esotericist. And so he was hanging out at the Roundtable foundation, too.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, they were good friends, in fact, on Buharich's book the Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing. I had read that book when I was much younger and I was really interested in all that stuff. And, you know, what's the book? Dmt, the spirit molecule. Yeah, yeah, I was really into that. And I came across the Sacred Mushroom, Bukharich's book, which is very interesting. Have you read that?

[Interviewer]

I haven't read it.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think I have it, but I haven't read it.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, the premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the Roundtable was, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom, in this instance, the Amanita Mascaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities. And they did extensive research on that there. But on the COVID of that book, you know, Aldous Luxa gives a blur for Buharich and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology. But, yeah, they were good friends. He was there all the Time again, very interested in what he was doing. Really thought Puharich was like, onto something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom. It's the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our cell phones or iPhones at least. But it also, I believe, John Marco Allegro, who was a, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Amanita muscaria mushroom. And so the actual transubstantiation involved this, like, mushroom and that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he achieved in the Book of Acts and that that whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn't just maybe a literal reincarnation or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so that I assume that must have. Because I think his. The name of his book is similar. It's the sacred mushroom in the cross or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So was there maybe some. Some influence there with Buharich?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I'm sure there was. You know, from, from what I understand, when Bukharich's book came out, it was, you know, it's now sort of like a cult classic, but at the time it was like, you know, controversial because basically people just didn't believe in what he was writing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And that I think, kind of kick started the, you know, way people looked at Buharich as being, you know, kind of like a kook. Yeah. But he clearly wasn't.

[Interviewer]

Clearly. But he was, he also was amongst. He was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields. People like Albert Hoffman, Karl Ruck and Stanislav Grof, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new Eleusis, based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals. The Eleusinian mystery rituals.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And they involved Urgod and psychedelic substances and you know, these sort of, you know, Persephone's quest style. You know, you, you go down, you descend to the underworld and you come back up and you, you know, you, you. You gain knowledge of your primordial soul. And so Buharich was, you know, he was amidst this backdrop. He was. He was sort of on his. On his come up, which.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, maybe isn't a coincidence.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

We are the positive principles of cosmos. We penetrate, visit persons, we work through this body, but it is under our control. We9.

[Interviewer]

The very first time that Andre heard about the 9 was through Dr. V nod.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

I've never seen people like this that I've studied. Dr. Vinod had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space. It's so alien to our thinking, we can't even comprehend it. They call themselves these big. The Nine said, what is the Nine? They said, well, it's hard to explain to you. We're not personalities as you think of personality. We're more like laws or principles of the universe.

[Greg Mallozzi]

The part of Puharich's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when this instance happens, when they first channel the 9, which was in 52, and it is correct, all these people were there again, these were people who were like benefactors who were interested in what he was doing. But it all started with this guy Vinod. You may have heard this name. He was an Indian psychic. He came to the Roundtable again through recommendation of somebody Puharich I was working with. And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the Roundtable foundation, and the first night he's there, he just unexpectedly falls into a trance. And, you know, they're like, what's going on here? Someone grabs a tape recorder, which we have the tapes of, and he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, we are the Nine. And where we're coming through to you now and just kind of on and on and on about a lot of philosophical New Age sort of stuff, basically. I mean, it's really, really. It's a lot. I mean, there's thousands of pages, literally, of transcripts of what they recorded with him. But that's how the story goes of how the 9 first appears based on this guy Venod, but mostly Venod. So the interesting thing about this guy, Dr. Venod, was his. He was friends with Gandhi, right? They were really close. So this was something I learned way later into the process of the film. Because this was, as, you know, it took almost 10 years. And it was mostly because these new facts and things would just come up that I never knew, or somebody would say, hey, have you seen this? And so Venod, I only really discovered a couple years into it, but he was an interesting guy. And he was on a tour at the time in the United States, going to, like, Rotary clubs and dinner parties, like, lecturing about theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts of stuff like that. And it is very, very little information on this guy. I mean, we tried to dig up, like, everything we possibly could but that's what we know about him. He was a professor at university in Bombay. And again with Buharich, like, he never mentions any of that. His version of the story is this guy, they just randomly came in, fell into a trance. No context, you know, never mentions it. So that begins this, like, okay, what's really going on here? Because he clearly has a background that's interesting that he just never mentioned. And then when Vanad leaves, eventually, I think 54, he goes back, never talks about him again. You know, it was this huge moment in his life. The Nine first comes through through this guy, and he just sort of like, never talks about it. I think that's where the conspiracy starts as far as what people believe to be like, I guess, a psyop. I mean.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I don't want. We don't have to get into that

[Interviewer]

now, but no, I want to get into the psyop elements of it. But it. It sounds like fundamentally, he's a believer in extrasensory perception, psychic abilities. Right. He's not cynical about those things or haraj.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, no, yeah, That's, I think, a big question. And even now I always think. But I mean. Yeah, there's just no question he was interested in that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And earnestly. Or do you think it was some front?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, earnestly.

[Interviewer]

And we'll get into this in a little bit, but that there are also possible prosaic explanations around exotic electromagnetic wavelengths that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted in people and stuff, which is nuts. But I think he wouldn't reduce everything to. That would be my rough understanding, personally.

[Greg Mallozzi]

No, no, no.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

No, definitely not. Yeah, there's a lot to get into there. But basically. So what did the Nine say? Yes, and so again, it's really. It's a lot. So I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell. Yeah, I do. So he. He's awesome. Great guy, and he's written some amazing books. He was friends with this woman, Marianne Shenefield, this, you know, allegedly amazing psychic. She passed away. But I got to know Dick and he said, you know, I met Puharich once. In fact, I tape recorded an interview with him. It was 94, literally, the year before Puharich died. Was found dead mysteriously. But he recorded an interview with him because at the time, Dick Russell was wanting to write, like, a definitive book about MKUltra, and he wanted to interview these people involved in it. In fact, he has one of the only interviews, as far as I know, with Sidney Gottlieb. He spent a whole day with him. He literally told me, just showed up at his house and said, hey, yes or no? Will you let me interview you? And he said, yes. And so he has that. So this was part of that research he was doing for a book, but

[Interviewer]

just for the audience real quick, because I know we're getting into what the Nine said, but Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of US version of Joseph Mengele, a poisoner in chief, an architect of MK Ultra, from the technical staff services. So that's wild that Russell spent a whole day with him. Yeah. So what are the Nine saying?

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I guess, channeling talk where there's this idea that there's been this surveillance of Earth and that they've been monitoring Earth and they've been seeing the negative things happening. They've been seeing wars, they've been seeing nuclear weapons, and they're wanting to help. Basically, the general message is this idea that they are wanting to help the human race basically, not destroy itself. This goes on way through the 70s when Buhari the nine come back, but it was basically a lot of. Yeah. Trying to help humanity. It was a lot of, like. You've probably heard a lot about how sometimes these channelers are, you know, what is it called? Like, remote writing when someone's in a.

[Interviewer]

Automatic writing.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, automatic writing. There was a lot of, like, very complex equations that would come through that would. The Nine, meaning venode in a trance, speaking as the Nine. A lot of, like, write this down because you'll understand later what it means sort of stuff. And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It's really. I mean, maybe. I'm sure you might know somebody who could look at this. I mean, I'm just making the film. I mean, I'm very.

[Interviewer]

Well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or anything.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It's crazy. They would say the Nine. They would say, you know, okay, look, you're contacting us through a psychic, but if you want a clearer feed, a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage. And on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this. They were telling him and constructing him how to build the Faraday cage in a specific way that would help this transmission. And it did, because you can hear the tapes. It was very, like, stalled speech and waiting. And then when they did the Faraday cage sessions, it was like just boom. They Would talk. So I heard that, and I was like, okay, well, that's weird. You know, so crazy because, like, again, there's a lot of it that you could just say, oh, you know, this could have been made up or whatever. But when it gets to that, it was very, very specific stuff. You know, copper. They were big on copper. You need to use that. And it needs to be these dimensions. I mean, really specific stuff. And they would follow it. So they were basically following instructions from the Nine.

[Interviewer]

And you see the results get better as far as their channeling.

[Greg Mallozzi]

As you see the results get better. And that, again, to me, I just thought that's interesting because it's not just sort of like spiritual mumbo jumbo stuff.

[Interviewer]

Hand wavy stuff that's totally unfalsifiable. Yeah, it's like the. Literally, like the transmissions are coming. When you say that it's getting better. It's just like more. More gets channeled, like more substance.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. More information, clearer. Just sort of more precise. And the other thing, too was, again, it was this copper. This thing with copper where they would also say, okay, what you need to do is you need to get the. This is really crazy because of what happens later on in his story. But they would say, you know, you need to have copper touching your skin. And so you would need some sort of bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin in order, again, for the transmission to be better. And they would do that. And what's crazy is one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this. This was, you know, only a couple years ago, she whipped out this bracelet she had that was, like, a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said, like, they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later. So the copper thing is strange. And Puharich obsessed over that. And that's the other thing to me, you know, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Puharich's, you know, academic abilities, like, clearly he wouldn't take the time and the energy, like, to look into this stuff as deep as he did. You know, like, he, like, obsessed over this. He would go meet other academics. Hey, does this check out? And, you know, he really, like, was obsessive about this being legitimate.

[Interviewer]

And Phyllis Schlamer, who later wrote, the only Planet of Choice which channels the Nine, I think she talks about the Nine with respect to messages around the Earth being a bottleneck of consciousness. Right. And, like, other planets being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness on Earth, which might sort of sound like a cliche, but one

[Greg Mallozzi]

thing that they were doing at the roundtable was that this psychic, this one particular psychic, would claim that at a certain time of night they would see an orb and they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs. And this happened. And the only evidence I have is Buharit's own writing because we have all of his journals. And he writes this in his journals where he literally says, this psychic would just blurt out 11 o' clock tonight. And they'd go out and they would see an orb.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And I just thought that was interesting because of their. There's so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just. That kind of rang a bell where I'm like, oh, yeah, he wrote about that and he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then, but that's what he claimed, that there was like orb activity. This would have been early 50s again. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So trippy. Yeah, no, that almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something. These people who seem to attract these orbs. And it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high psi or, you know, you know, have higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever. There seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods or whatever, we don't exactly know what these nine beings are, but it's like a council. And later the nine plays prominently because this channeler, Phyllis Schlamer, gets all these messages from the nine, along with a lot of the kids and stuff. But that all of the people in this original seance with these blue blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

To make a long story short, there's a seance that's held in late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people you pick up, like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a Dupont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the blue blooded Brahmins of American society, old money people were at a seance. A Freaking seance right in the woods in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Pahari. And one of them is the guy who was the inventor of the Bell helicopter.

[Interviewer]

Right. So is that Arthur Young?

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Right. She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young.

[Interviewer]

She's a Forbes.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

She was married to a George Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur

[Greg Mallozzi]

Young as the crispy chicken sandwich from 7 11.

[Interviewer]

People always call me loud and I'm

[Greg Mallozzi]

like, yeah, I know I'm crispy.

[Interviewer]

Did you expect me to whisper?

[Greg Mallozzi]

If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Look, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4 quiet, no crispy, saucy. And $4 very only at 7 Eleven Valley through six 2326 participating stores only while supplies lastly after full terms.

[Interviewer]

So in that seance with the you know, these kind of blue blooded elites that Puharich is convening, I think one of the people who's close with Mary Bancroft, who's Dulles mistress, is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, Ruth Forbes Payne.

[Interviewer]

And so she's a Forbes first. So again go into the blue blooded elite thing. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I know.

[Interviewer]

And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne and I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository in Texas in Dallas through Ruth Payne and then ends up, you know, maybe not being the lone gunman, but, you know, attempting JFK's life.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia. Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their kids.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the Texas School Book Depository.

[Interviewer]

And so it's these weird entanglements where. And the nine believed themselves to be sort of agents or, sorry, the, the, the group in the seance believe themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials. Right. Like to be acting on their behalf. And so like, and I know poor rich would stop at airports and try and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that the nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff. Yeah. And so I wonder sometimes, was it all good or was it bad? I mean, I don't think, you know, the assassination of JFK was good. He seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it's strange story.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I just want to hear something really strange about that.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So

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[Greg Mallozzi]

Want to hear something really strange about that?

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah. That's why you're here.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. This woman who I got to know very well, who's in the film, she was Puharich's assistant for many years, starting in, I think 63. Basically she worked with him, I think, until like the mid-80s. And she's amazing. She's from Hawaii, very nice woman. But she met him in New York. She was a student at nyu. And Buharich is working. This is a whole other thing to get into. But he had started his company there called Intellectron Corporation, but she started as sort of an intern at this company, Intellectron, which was basically a biomedical research company. We can get into that. But basically she told me a story that she was working at Intellectron the day JFK was assassinated. And that these men in suits, she says, came into the offices, went into Puharich's office, said something to him that seemed very serious, and they left. And she said the whole rest of the day, Puharich was out of sorts. What this could be as simple as, you know, how horrible that the President was shot, or it could have been something else. But she was very specific to say, I remember this happening. It was very strange. But to finish the nine thing, basically, the roundtable ends in 57, I think. Right. Meaning they, for whatever reason, I mean, I think I know the reason, basically, he moved on to Intellectron, which I can talk about. But he claims that we ran out of funding, the benefactors lost interest and it shut down. But all the while he was getting money from the army. I mean, there's records of that, but so the Nine stopped, allegedly. And I think Lavenda, I think, talks about this. But a lot of the early Nine related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea that it was a psyop or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment. Where can we get certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent? And a lot of people think that that was like the Nine. They think that's all it was. They think any sort of, like, real channeling or any is just, you know, is fake. And that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which, you know, there's reasons to think that could be true, but that's where a lot of that, you know, starts.

[Interviewer]

You know, I think that's possible. But you think about, like, what. When did MK Ultra start? It was probably. There's probably stuff going on before 52, but really the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it's dated to. And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MKUltra, where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings and that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing Faraday chambers that were able to make the messages they received more effective. Like this elaborate sort of magic trick. That seems a little beyond the pale

[Greg Mallozzi]

to me, but it's a big mystery. I mean, even, I'll admit it, the years and years I research, I mean, even. I don't know, a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth, like, they think that I know all the answers, and I wish I did. And it's not like I'm hiding something because I'm worried that, you know, I'm gonna be a monitor. I just don't. You know, I know what was in the archives, and a lot of the film for me was like, okay, what do we know what is a fact? And let's work off that. And so it was really just like, okay, here's the transcripts. Here's what they were saying.

[Interviewer]

Speaking of, what are the facts? We have to get back to this Intellectron thing.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, so you're. Is the. The implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of jfk? Or, like, were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA, and were they. They thinking that Intellectron had something to do with this or.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, so Puharich, yeah, he leaves the Roundtable, he moves to New York City, or he moves to Ossining. A lot of people know this in relation to Puharich because he lived there most his life.

[Interviewer]

Upstate New York.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, it's, you know, an hour on the train north of the city. You know, Mad Men, of course, the show, like, I didn't even realize all the characters, they all live in Ossining. Like, Don, I guess there's. I remember watching it, but there's some reference like, they live in Ossining. So it's a very, you know, wealthy area. And all of a sudden, Buharich has what's considered, like, a mansion there, basically a huge house. He moves there. He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the Roundtable Foundation. But there were specific people who needed him to move to New York, so they moved there. I mean, his family life is a whole different thing. He had his wife, sadly committed suicide around this time.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, he was very, like, you know, distraught about that. And what happened. I received a grim call from Ginny's father. Ginny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity. I wept for Jenny. I wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy. I wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing. I cried out to God in crushing despair. But so they moved to New York. He starts this company called Intellectron. He gets a. Annie Jacobson helped figure this out. He gets a grant for $300,000, which at the time would have been like, at least a million dollars or more from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange. And we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him. They gave him this grant. So he starts this Thing intelektron, which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company. So they have an office in Hell's Kitchen. And again with Puharich, I just, it's, it's. I have to stress like there was always these instances in his life, this one being really the first. But it was sort of the roundtable too, where like all of a sudden he just has this company and these employees and this fun, you know, all of a sudden it says, you know, kind of expensive to have a big office in New York City and all this state of the art at the time, electronic equipment and.

[Interviewer]

Well, it sounds like in classic intelligence world front sort of stuff. Well, how does Epstein have a huge hedge fund?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh yeah, he just always had and it's always this company and basically in this was early 60s now 62, 63. This is when he starts the hearing experiments where basically he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them. And basically they designed a device which would enable deaf people to hear, basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain. And it was this breakthrough medical discovery which, you know, go figure, goes completely quiet. No one ever hears about it. Yeah, but that's when he first starts this whole, you know, radio frequency stuff, voices in the head kind of stuff, which again was under this, you know, we're researching on deaf people, we're doing this, you know, in a medical sense, we're helping people. But that's when these men in suits show up. That's when once again, he's getting contracts from Navy CIA. Again, almost everyone that was involved at the roundtable was back in this Intellectron situation with him. And so that I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie, his assistant seemed like such a big deal, is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control. Sort of like a Sirhan Sirhan situation with Lee Harvey Oz. I mean, I know that's like a pretty crazy bold claim, but that's just what I've thought. It's not because they were doing that. This is, we're talking and again, this is something I don't think a lot of people know and I think people don't realize. A lot of that MK Ultra stuff happened much earlier, but they were doing this work in 62, 63 of like basically sending messages to people's heads you know, and we have footage. We have. I mean, it's real. The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters. We found, like, we went. Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think, in her book. One of the guys is like, I don't believe you. Test me. And did the test on himself, and it worked. And then it goes dark, and Intellectron closes, and all of a sudden it's onto the next sort of mysterious company.

[Interviewer]

Deep black program, or. Yeah, some other front company. That's really, really trippy. Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I haven't looked, but I just think, you know, if you want to go there. It's like Lavenda says, the whole connection there at the roundtable, and then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year. They're researching ways to be able to send messages to someone's mind to do something specific. Manchurian Candidate, et cetera, et cetera.

[Interviewer]

Apparently, Dulles just did not want the fact that Ruth Payne had actually been at the summer house or whatever. I think that summer, right before JFK was assassinated. Yeah, he did not want, you know, that at all on record. I think Mary Bancroft, like, started to talk about it, and he, like, you know, he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when, like, you know, he would have reacted earnestly if. If he hadn't. He clearly did know what was going on. And obviously Dulles was probably, you know, among a very short list of people. If you, you know, the intersection of capabilities, motivation to. To take out jfk, Dulles has to be on anybody's short list. And then to further kind of steel, man, there maybe being a there there. We know that Jack Ruby was an MK Ultra patient. I mean, like, 95%, you know, like, you have letters between Jolly west and Sidney Gottlieb, who's definitely the kind of architect of MK Ultra. Yeah, you. Jolly west was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in Operation Midnight Climax, and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson. And he sees Jack Ruby, who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald in his jail cell alone, no cameras, comes back, comes out and says, Jack Ruby has had a psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby, you know, who was fully lucid but just didn't remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just, like, literally cracks. So very, very strange, you know, possible connections.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, the other really strange thing at this time was that Pujaris is working with someone named Jose Delgado, who you probably might know who that is.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Delgado, old friend of mine, brilliant researcher from Spain, implanted radio receivers in the heads of bulls. Delgado has remote control of the animal.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

from the outside we could modify the inside?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Could we give messages to the inside? He was a guy from Spain, he was a researcher. He was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the 60s, late 50s 60s. But I think he's mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting. Putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control a bull and basically say, go this, stop, go left, go right. And he was able to do it. There's literally footage of the experiment happening. And Puharich, we later found out, was close friends, as Buharich says himself, with Delgado. We found letters between the two of them during this time and it was nothing too sinister. It was mostly like, hey, I'm gonna go to this conference, Are you gonna be there? But they clearly were close. I mean, there's some people I met during the process of this who were like, don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with Delgado. But you know, I was interested to.

[Interviewer]

No, it's fascinating. You have a guy who's being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game. And that clearly was the heir to MK Ultra, which was mostly sodium Pentothal, lsd, that sort of thing. It was chemical based. If in the early 60s we had chips that could control animals. And you add heirs to MK Ultra like MK often, which were done, I believe, at the Science and Engineering Institute in the Northeast as well. It's like, of course we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff now. It's creepy to think about. It's one of those things, you don't even want to think about it because the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, yeah, if you think, okay, they're putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing, why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being? I mean, why wouldn't you? And I think that was going on at Intellectron. I mean, I'm sure of it. Because there's just way too many. There's way too many connections. I don't have a document that says, here's the experiment we did, but that whole decade of the 60s was such an odd decade for Bukharic. He was so like, quiet. Like. There's all these records of the roundtable, you know, tapes, photos, everything. And all of a sudden you get to the 60s, it's like nothing really. Very little documentation, very little, you know, photographic evidence of what he was up to. And all of a sudden, in the 70s, boom picks back up, there's a hundred photo. So it's a very mysterious decade. And it was just. It just so happened to be when he had this company in Electron with these very odd connections. Delgado.

[Interviewer]

I think it's becoming super clear that.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And the other thing too, not to cut you off, is with all this stuff in this film, I've gone to the ends of the earth to try to track down absolutely nothing. This place never existed. In Electron, you would not find. The only thing I ever found was there's a guy, a pretty interesting guy actually. His name is Beardsley Graham. He was involved In NASA in the 60s, early 70s, colleague of Puharich's. But he was like, I guess he was somehow involved in Intellectron as like an outside consultant or something. And in his archives at Berkeley, there was a couple documents that had an electron letterhead. And it was like correspondence. And that was like the only thing I could find. And even in that, it was nothing revealing. It was again, it was just like records and sort of like, you know, financial records, which again, didn't point to anything.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

You know, so there's just this place did not exist. But it very much did.

[Interviewer]

It very much did. Well, it's. I mean, now I feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting, you know, And I think more and more people are gonna start to recognize the fact that MKUltra had a role not only in the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination. You mentioned Sirhan sir, who had written in his diary right before he shot rfk, just like over and over. It was like some neuro linguistic programming was coming through him. To this day does not remember having shot him. He's like, you know, I must kill him, must kill, you know, sort of thing. And you have RFK Jr. Now, who's head of the FDA. He himself has gone deep on his father's death. I think he was 14 at the time. And I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front. So there was this other gunman again, just like jfk. I think he thinks that MK Ultra was involved. This guy, William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s, William Jennings Bryan was this kind of mysterious, deep, statey figure who I believe was tight with Sirhan Sirhan. And so I think these things are going to start to come out that MK Ultra was far more pervasive than we ever realized. And there's even a book called, I don't know if you know about this book, the Controllers by Martin Cannon.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, yeah, he mentions Puharich in that.

[Interviewer]

So this book is insane. What's the thesis of this book?

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[Interviewer]

What's the thesis of this book?

[Greg Mallozzi]

It's basically about this idea of the. The fabrication of alien abductions, right? That's at least a big part of it.

[Interviewer]

Some of them being chip implantations done basically for MK Ultra purposes. And people being tricked into saying, oh, like this is your guardian angel or whatever.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And there's a whole thing. I don't. We can get to that later. But the whole intellectron thing, basically, to cap that off, it was, yeah, one of many of these very. To me, it became very obvious fronts. I mean, there's just no question about it, you know, that he had. And they were doing all that type of experimentation. Again, there's footage of them doing an experiment on a woman. There's no sound, but it's obvious what's happening. You can see she's in the other room. She's behind a wall there in the other room. He has his device that he invented in the early 60s called the TD100, which I've told you about. And this basically enables a certain frequency to be sent to somebody. And it's kind of like a situation where if you're exposed to this frequency, it's at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can't hear. And this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the 70s. But they're doing an experiment on a woman using this. And it's very clear what's happening, and it's very clear it's working. This was like neuralink, basically.

[Interviewer]

And you could send or implant thoughts to a person. Yeah, that's crazy. And so how exactly did it work? You played a tone and then you would.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, there's two things. One of the things he invented back then, too, which, again, Puharch says himself, was classified. And you've probably heard of this as the tooth implant. A device could be inserted into one of your back molars that acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

It took about a month of daily therapy. They would have their hearing improved significantly. It was extraordinary because it was a

[Interviewer]

totally new way of understanding how we hear.

[Greg Mallozzi]

You could send signals to someone secretly. It had a lot of potential.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon. We fitted this device to this general, and we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting. And he said, God damn it, I hear it. God damn it, I hear it.

[Greg Mallozzi]

The bastard did was basically a radio receiver. That would be. I guess at one point it was. Puharich kind of says it. It says it as though you could slip on some sort of thing. Anyone could just kind of slip this thing on their tooth. But in other instances, it was very specific about it being a real cat. What do you call it, a molar or Something that would really be put on your tooth and that would basically be able to receive a radio signal. It would pick it up here and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever area in your brain. You register sounds. So you could be. Again, you could clearly see them doing this. And this was very. A short distance, like I said, a woman right across the room. And you can clearly see they're able to do it. So you can imagine if the research continued, at what length can this go? Can this be in another town? Could it be another state? Could it be in another country? So that's what they were experimenting with. But. So the first part of it was the tooth, where you could send the message to the tooth implant, hear it in the head. And the second part was an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of just bypass the whole tooth thing. And it's a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can't tune into, like, on a normal frequency band or a radio.

[Interviewer]

I mean, do you know what frequency?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No, he doesn't talk about it.

[Interviewer]

That would seem to be extremely classified, would be my guess.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It has a lot to do with sine waves.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I must say, again, like, this is not my forte. A lot of this I stumbled into. But it was this idea that, again, you would bypass the tooth and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially connecting to.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Just to also substantiate what you're saying to the audience who might think we're crazy. I mean, as early as Beethoven, he was deaf, and he used something called bone conduction, where he would bite onto a conductive rod while he was playing piano. That would bypass his ear canal, and the vibrations would literally play in his brain. And so he would defacto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal. So that is a thing. There's a story of. There's a kind of apocryphal, but I think substantiated story around Lucille Ball, who had just.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I've heard about this.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's in the telepathy tapes.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And she had gotten a tooth filling or whatever, and she's driving, and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has some metal in her teeth. I think there's a story with Puharich where some guy works at a metal mill or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. That was his first aha moment. Is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's sane. And we're worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital, and we don't want that to happen, so can you check him out? So they bring him in, they get to know him, and he says, okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess basically he's grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing. Annie Jacobson talks about it, too, in her book.

[Interviewer]

Puharich's theory was that this metal dust

[Greg Mallozzi]

had somehow collected on his teeth and in essence acted like a radio antenna.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

We found out he was tuned to Station WOR in New York.

[Interviewer]

And they put the mental patient in

[Greg Mallozzi]

their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals, and the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is, like, perfectly sane.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

And sure enough, soon as we locked the door, the sound ceased. Open the door, the sound would come on.

[Interviewer]

That's pretty remarkable of Puharich to think

[Greg Mallozzi]

that all through and to test it in the laboratory. And that kicked off, like, all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like, what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio, ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency. Everything has a quote unquote resonant frequency.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

This sounds woo, woo. But what I just said is fact.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain? And that kind of gets into freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that's ubiquitous or whatever and widespread. Like, it's kind of weird to think about, but, I mean, if you're saying that was possible back then, it's just wild. And then you mentioned sine waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you texted me when you saw the interview, because you said it, you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you had been studying around Puharch. If Puhar is doing this stuff in the 60s, then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening in the early 90s around messages he's downloading. But maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial, or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through Him. And I don't know. You know, I don't know the answer to that question. I. I don't think he was lying. And I think the program is real.

[Greg Mallozzi]

The genesis of it was in 1947, we came in contact with an alien species. And in 1960, they started a. A project. It was called Project Preserve Destiny. And it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And he said, I'm going to play a tone, and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. When I saw the sine wave move, I went, oh, okay. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that. That's not supposed to be happening, that this is not. This is not possible. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you think that it was kind of a development from, you know, what you were looking into with Puhari?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question. You know, you said, there are a

[Interviewer]

lot of sine waves. He literally says, I had to flatten a sine wave.

[Greg Mallozzi]

When I saw the sine wave move is like, it came into focus, this thing that I was doing in my head. That's why I reached out. Because, again, for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information. I'm not a physicist, most of this stuff, but I'd have to imagine it's connected because Buharich, the way this machine worked as well, had something to do with specific sine waves. Very specific. Very specific. You know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just. I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early interpretation of what he was talking about.

[Interviewer]

And you have this machine that you, like, where you, like, you're matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like sugar.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, it's all tone. It's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is again, and like you said, sounding crazy. Like, for a long time making this film, you know, like, I had to really grapple with, like, that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and sort of not so much researching, because a lot of stuff we got were, like, tapes of these experiments. So it's not just like, I'm reading a report, you're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know, these channeling sessions. I'm hearing these experiments. He's doing an electron, and, you know, you can just tell something's going on something strange. And so you're right. I mean, I think, like, if that was happening in 60s, 61, 62, I mean, I don't know. And this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research.

[Interviewer]

But how so?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, well, I think it's my belief that Geller was sort of like a mind control guinea pig in a way. There's a lot of context that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole.

[Interviewer]

Explain that. That's fascinating.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, he. So basically, Puharich, in the 60s, we had Intellectron. And the thing is too, with this device he invented, the TD 100, it was called, which is called transdermal 100. But again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough, you know, medical device where people who are deaf can hear, you know, think about what we could do with this. But it just goes like. Again, he never talks about it. No one in his family. Oh, yeah. I wonder whatever happened to that. Like, you would think that with such an amazing discovery, like something would have come of it or it was just like went dark basically, probably around 68. He never talks about it again, only way later in his life. He never, ever talks about it. Of course, we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that. So he's coming off the tail end of all the Intellectron stuff, right? When he meets Geller, literally, it was 1970, is when he first hears about Geller goes to Israel. Intellectron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand, it was still very much an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people. And he gets to Israel, he discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know this story, but. But Geller was allegedly this very amazing psychic guy who could bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that. He could hover his hand over a watch and the hands would move and all these kinds of things.

[Interviewer]

Do you believe he could actually do those things or do you think that was stage magic?

[Greg Mallozzi]

All I can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview, and I don't know how he did it.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So that's all I can say. It could have been a trick, but I can't to this day figure out

[Interviewer]

how he did it, you know, the easy debunks on things like that. Yeah, okay.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, yeah. So all I can say is, like, yeah, it could have been a trick, but it was definitely kind of strange and cool. And he did do it, but he. So Puharich, you know, again, the story goes, Puharich was kind of smitten with Geller, and, oh, my God, this guy's an amazing psychic. I'm interested in psychic phenomena. I want to study him. So he brings him back. But what people don't really know unless they read Puharich's book on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to come across. But he has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States, where he basically hypnotizes Geller. And, you know, the Nine come through, really. And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vanad did it, to 71, and guess what happens? He starts channeling the Nine, Uri Geller. And so Puharich is, you know, apparently shocked, and, you know, I can't believe this is happening. You know, there's all these tape recordings we have of this going down, and that kind of kickstarts again. The whole Nine thing comes back into the picture through Uri Geller, and all of a sudden, they're, like, back, you know, and he's channeling them, channeling them, and he's communicating with them. But it's very strange because Puharich, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellectron company, which, as we know, was experimenting with being able to send voices, send thoughts to people. And so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way when the Nine just so happened to reappear all those years later. And it's also strange because I think a lot of people know, like, Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things. There's reasons to believe Puharich may have been a double agent for Israel. In fact, he says it on the tape, but he kind of says it in a jokey way. And so I had always just stuck to me like, okay, is this a joke?

[Interviewer]

Have you found any connections between him and Israel?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What were the connections? Besides, you're a yeller, obviously.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, he. So we did tons of, like, FOIA requests trying to find stuff on him, and, like, basically got nothing. But the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents which was basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel, literally, page after page. He just got here. He's leaving. He picked this bag up. He did, you know, in the exact years he's. He's going there to see Geller. So that there's that. And then multiple people who knew him, who never really said anything until much later in their lives, told me that he was Mossad. Again, I don't have a document or something that proves this. And then Puharich also mentions in a letter he was writing to, there's a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff. And she was like his closest confidant. And he would write these letters to her all the time. It was very clear that they were close. He spoke with her very differently than other people. But he basically admitted to being part of a Israeli US Mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an army base. And I read that. And again, what do you make of it? It's either true or for some reason, he's making it up. I don't know why.

[Interviewer]

It's fascinating.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So he wrote that, and then in this tape, he kind of jokingly says, oh, I'm a double agent for the Israelis. And he also was always there. That's the other thing. Yes, he went to investigate Geller, but he was, even through the 80s, well, after him and Geller kind of parted ways. He's always going there on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the 70s with the space kids. He's referring by name to Israeli generals. This one guy, Aharon Yariv, who was, I think, the head of army intelligence. You can look him up. I mean, and he was constantly, should we give this information to Yariv? Always referring to him and other people high up there. So a lot of red flags. Nothing again, no concrete document or something. But it's strange. And I don't know. I mean, again, that's something like. After all this time, I'm still thinking, okay, what was really going on there?

[Interviewer]

Fascinating, man. What do you think when he goes to Israel initially to see Geller in 1971, and he. Geller's kind of channeling the nine again. Is it like the nine are somehow, like, he has a protocol to, like, summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings? Is it this cynical, hypnotic technique that he's doing, where he's implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings? Or what do you think that is? Is he calling in something that exists in reality, these nine, you know, entities or Is he creating those entities synthetically?

[Greg Mallozzi]

First of all, just to quickly mention, like this. This idea that Bukhari, there's always two stories, right? So when he went to Israel for the first time in some lecture we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation and they wanted me to go. So they scraped some money together and I was able to get a plane ticket and I went to Tel Aviv and that's how I got there. Right. And then Geller himself said, oh, yeah, no, he was sent by the CIA, like, directly. He was consulting for CIA, that's why he came. And then someone else close to Buhari said, oh, yeah, like that he was CIA. That's why he went. But in this lecture, in fact, twice in two separate lectures, Buharich, when he kind of tells the story to an audience, you know, and he says, oh, yeah, they just bought me a ticket, this foundation. So again, a little thought in my mind where I'm like, okay, who's telling the truth? I think it's obvious. But with the nine, I mean. So, yeah, it all did come from hypnosis. That was the protocol. It was a very. Your typical countdown from a certain number. Once you get there, you're in a state where they can come through. And. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, kind of having to accept some of these darker parts of the story. Like, I do think to some extent, like he was implanting this idea because you can. I mean, you can hear it. I mean, again, this isn't like speculation like on the tapes. You can very much hear him saying, you know, is. Is it the nine? You know, the type of, like, leading questions. I think that a lot of people say, oh, you know, you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing this. And it was, it was, it was that it was very leading questions. And are you sure it's not the nine? And. Oh, actually, yeah, you're right, it is. And that kind of thing. But what's so confusing is there's. There's a lot of other sessions you did where it was like, not like that at all. The complete opposite, you know, not leading at all.

[Interviewer]

Not. And the nine would still come through. Yeah, so that's interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of huarch of like, okay, yes, he believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in very, by his own admittance, involved in MK Ultra and all these things. So it's like, what?

[Interviewer]

Believer, master manipulator? I mean, I usually clearly he was manipulative somewhat. I usually get to the end of these questions thinking it's like a yes and like an improv or whatever. It's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away. You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be, you can think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and it's mind control. Right? Like that would explain like aliens, reverse engineer, like so many things. But then you, you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often. And it's like, well, I actually think there might be these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions, but it's fascinating. He isolates specific extra low frequency waves that he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts. Is that right?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. And again, this was interesting because his research into ELF, extremely low frequency, that was much later, like late 70s, 80s, he was very involved in that. But I figured out once again this origin point of the Roundtable foundation. He was researching this stuff back then, this very specific extremely low frequency that he figured out penetrated the walls of a Faraday cage. That was like the only frequency that could do that. They went on to use that frequency with submarine experiments. So that he believed was the frequency that could carry audio information to somebody's head.

[Interviewer]

And he was very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I mean, there's Project Pandora, which started in, I think the 60s, which, going back to Intellectron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was the same thing. The Russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons, which they did. I mean, that's all proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre Havana syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, and at Intellectron they're doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that Geller was some sort of guinea pig for these experiments because it's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And I think, and again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this, you know, we need to experiment on a real human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MK Ultra, the lsd, giving LSD to unwitting people. At a certain point with these kinds of experiments, you need to do it on a real person or else you're never gonna know how someone in the real world will react. And I think Geller was part of something like this because there's a lot of experiments they did where there's a story, for instance, where Geller allegedly teleported. So he was walking down the street in New York City, 1973, I think he claims he's walking down the street in New York City, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden, he wakes up, and he's in Ossining, New York, which is, you know, however, 50 miles or whatever, and he crashes through the screen porch. There's footage, Super 8 movie footage, of Puharich filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened. It's all smashed through, right? And Geller allegedly winds up in Ossini. He teleported from New York City. And Puharich claims or told Geller, oh, yeah, this happened. And the nine did this. Basically, since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, well, we're gonna do something that will make you never question us again. And they. This teleportation, right? And the weird thing is, again, like, the length Puharich went to actually get a. You know, again, people don't remember. This was like, 70s. Like, get a load of film. You know, put it in the. Put it in the camera film. Get the film transferred and be like, hey, look, I actually filmed when you. Right after you flew into the window. And here it is. It's proof. So, you know, he's doing that. That. But that was just one instance of me thinking, like, okay, this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened. And Geller believed it. I mean, he talks about it, he wrote about it, and I think later in his life, he started to question everything. And he even came out with a statement on a radio show in 2019 saying that that Buharich had experimented on him with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him with hypnosis. But again, that story is crazy. And I think it's like, okay, if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported and smashed, I mean, what else could you get someone to believe? And I just think it was all part of that type of experimentation. And Puharich himself, way later in his life, like I said, when he starts to kind of reveal things, he says himself. I was involved in a program, and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So, you know, he was doing it. And I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like, okay, we need a guinea pig here to see if some of these wild ideas work.

[Interviewer]

You know, so wild. I think there's a story, too, that Geller tells around him meeting Wernher von Braun and Wernher von Braun taking him to a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, well, Wernher von Braun again was somebody close to Buharich in the 60s, specifically.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, his assistant, the same one I told you about who made the JFK comments, said, yeah, he talked to him, you know, all the time. What? So that was yet another person who was just kind of part of his Rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said something to the effect of, yeah, he showed him some photographs of something from Roswell or revealed facts to him.

[Interviewer]

And I think he showed him material and I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Wernher von Braun takes me into his personal office. There is a safe in the office. He opens a safe. I see a piece of metal. I've never seen such a color. Pulls it out. It's not heavy, says Uri, touch this, tell me what you feel now. I put my hand on it and I say, werner, this is not from here. He says, you're right. This is a piece of a UFO that crashed on our planet.

[Interviewer]

So it's like he knew that it was not from here or something. Like he showed it to him and he goes, it's not from here. And he goes, how did you know something? It's so interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

The other thing too, and this goes back to the controllers book a lot of the stories. And again, keep in mind, this is all pre coming to the US going to sri. Everyone knows that stuff. This is in Tel Aviv before any of that. And another story like this teleportation one, they're in the Sinai desert, they're driving around in a jeep and they see a ufo. And Geller all of a sudden, I mean, Puharich's book on Geller is fun to read in and of itself is. Cause it's just like a cool crazy sci fi book, if anything, even though it's supposed to be nonfiction. But he claims that this UFO lands, Geller goes into a trance, boards the ufo, comes back with like a pen or something, like a pen, and basically said, you know, oh, these beings told me to keep this cause will forever be proof that I went on this craft. But the same thing, it's always like, oh, he's in a trance before this happens apparently. And then it's that same idea of like he believed it. And Puharich kind of substantiated, oh yeah, you know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it and what. But then it always goes to that question, like, why again, you could just say, oh, well, they wanted to experiment with. Can you get someone to believe in? We're just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing. But it's always like, why do this? Why was he doing this?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Cause again, there's no concrete proof. Oh, Geller was a guinea pig. He was a subject. I'm just kind of putting the pieces together. But it just seems to me that it's like, let's take this ufo, ET framework and do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that and see, you know, see what, what people can believe.

[Interviewer]

And you also get into weird territory where it's like it does again, the MK Ultra thing just explain everything, which is like such a dark version of the truth. But it's possible. We have to entertain that. Or is MK Ultra actually converging on a technique that. That the extraterrestrials, or nhi non human intelligence already has mastery over vis a vis its ability to manipulate human beings. I think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy named Mario woods, who is at Ellsworth Air force base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he was a missile security officer. And he's just a really upright, great guy. And he thought, you know, like this sort of like B2 bomber was like kind of winking at him. And in the distance, he and his, you know, teammate or whatever, his colleague Michael Johnson, go in this little Jeep and they follow it. They get there and it's this like huge, like, plasma orb that's glowing. It's red hot, and it's the size of a Walmart. Is the line. He always says it's sort of this crazy, iconic line, you know, and. And he ends up being transported nine miles away from the base, like behind a dam. And it's like, it's the next morning, he has no idea what happened. And all he, I think, had remembered was beings walking toward him saying, do not fear. Do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression and he realizes that, you know, possibly he boarded a craft. And what's really interesting is he says that after, when he gets sort of, you know, debriefed, they check his teeth. I think he said that, like, the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time. Really sort of crazy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. That is, the tooth thing is really strange. And there's a lot online about. There's a story about an individual who changed his name, in fact, because he didn't want to be associated with this. But this was so post Geller, right? So Geller, basically, they kind of split up. Geller wants to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he kind of opens up and said, yeah, I was kind of afraid. And he really opens up. I didn't know what was kind of going on, and. And I was suspicious, and I just wanted to get away basically from this guy. And so he, you know. But he was famous at that time. Anyways, so he leaves. Buharich is, you know, trying to find another subject to bring through the Nine, he claims. So this is even pre. Phyllis Schlemmer is right around. Cause Phyllis Schlemmer was sort of the next channel that he discovers that brings through the Nine. But before Phyllis, there was this guy in Florida where Phyllis was from. She knew this guy. He was part of a psychic class that she taught. And again, I've heard from a lot of people that this woman Phyllis was like a legit psychic, knowing things about people and so forth. But there's this guy that she knew. She introduces him to Puharich. They do a bunch of experiments. Yeah. Sure enough, he hypnotizes him and he. He is communicating with not the Nine, but it was some other being. Can't remember the name. But anyways, this guy says, you know, I got really, really weird vibes, you know, et cetera. But lo and behold, he wakes up one day and realizes he has a metal filling that he never had. And he goes to the dentist and says, you know, what's going on here? I didn't get this done. And they looked and said, yeah, this was done professionally. There's no question about it. And, oh, complete side note, the guy that Buharich ran Intellectron with was a dentist that he met in the army. So this guy discovers a feeling he never had. He completely freaks out and leaves the group that is Puharich, Phyllis. And it's sad. And again, this always comes back to this. Like, not avoiding the negative stuff. Like, apparently the guy went, like, you know, crazy. He just had like, a mental breakdown. There's a couple other people in the sphere of this story that this happened to, but that's like a real story. And the guy, you know, and he brought it up to Bukharich, and they said, oh, you know, we don't know what you're talking about. We weren't involved with this. Or I think, you know, actually, I think what they said was, o, you know, this was done by the beings you're talking. They wanted this to happen. And they did this somehow. And so it's very bizarre, you know, but that goes back to the. I mean, what you just told me is crazy because this was early 70s, so there might be something going on with this tooth thing. And you know, again, I think the film does a good job of this, or I hope it does, is, you know, I, I don't believe, or, and especially don't want to believe that MK Ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff. Because there's a couple stories in Buharich's life that do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters. For instance, in the late 80s, Buharich lived in North Carolina. And there's a story that a bunch of his family was visiting a bunch of his cousins and people who, you know, are very skeptical about all of this stuff, skeptical of Puharich's whole world. But some psychic that night or that day said later tonight, you know, I just got a message that like a UFO is going to show itself over the house. And so we have the video. Puharich's son Andy, who's an awesome guy, he did this kind of like, like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at the, at this family gathering and said, you know, what do you think's gonna happen? Do you think it's gonna show up? And everyone said, oh, yes or no. But that night multiple people saw this huge ufo and Andy tells the story and he like, he gets emotional telling it and he's again a totally sane guy. You know, of course his dad was Andre Puharch, but like he's, he's very normal, sane guy. And he said, yeah, of course, you know, the camera wasn't out. Cause it was much later in the night. And again, pre iPhone, of course, you know, you gotta run in and grab this bulky VHS camcorder. But apparently like him, Pujarch's son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over, so wild. And his son again, very emotionally says, like that was the moment. I said, okay, like I believe in this stuff and I believe in things my dad did. And he just had a very emotional reaction to that moment. So it's stories like that where I go, okay, well you know, Puharj isn't running some MKUltra experiment on his family, you know, decades after all this stuff. So yeah, I don't want to put this idea out there that, you know, I think that way. I mean, again, it's just there's too many red flags in his story that point to his involvement. But then there's that story where even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or whatever, but I did talk to him and he was like, yeah, that happened, you know.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think there's something. It's like everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container. And I'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with MK Ultra and with implants and all these things, you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate what people experience. Yeah, but the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual prism that involves other entities between man and God or, you know, whatever your metaphysical beliefs are, I think also involves some sort of hubris. Like, you know, you can, you can have both. But it's. This is, I mean, this is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done. Man, this is crazy. I mean, I feel like shocked, like listening to all of these. And I'm just thinking as you're talking about Puharaj's son and this UFO showing up, what was night. Because I think of 1952 as the D.C. flyover, Washington invasion, maybe the most intense UFO showing in United States history as far as mass media covering it, people seeing things. I actually recently met a witness from 1952 and he was pretty amazing and he remembers it and stuff. He's one of the probably last living witnesses. Yeah, but do you think that had anything to do with the seance? Because I think of the seance with, you know, the original channeling of the nine.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It was 52.

[Interviewer]

Do you know what month it was?

[Greg Mallozzi]

It was New Year's Eve.

[Interviewer]

Okay, well, I mean, it was before then because the, so the, the again, I don't want to engage in any sort of, you know, selection bias here, but July 1952 was when. Then it was the thing showed up and so.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But a lot of that early channeling with Vanad, that was all, you know, 52.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. Into 53. I mean, it could have been. And I told you, like he, he wrote in his journals about these orbs and one of the psychic psychics would say, you know, go outside tonight, you're going to see an orbs. I don't, you know.

[Interviewer]

Well, every, every time I want to get away from like the occult having to do with UFOs, it's like, it's just so obviously does have everything to do. And there's, there's even a group called the Borderland Society, which was.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, borderland. Well, which one?

[Interviewer]

The Borderlands research.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, Duharts was very involved in that. In fact, a lot of the recordings we have, not a lot, but some of them came from, from them. They were really, they were, they had a bunch of stuff saved actually.

[Interviewer]

So there's a really amazing like kind of nuts and bolts UFO researcher who I think did some software stuff for SpaceX. His name is Richard Geldreich and he has uncovered like a couple of UFO either crashes or appearances where the Borderland society knew about out these UFO appearances before the military did, before the army, before the Air Force. So and then you have, you know, this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like is getting increasingly corroborated. David Grush, Harold Malmgren, both talk about it. And Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton were there. And you know, maybe there's some occult stuff going on there with the Knights of Malta. Right. You know, who knows?

[Greg Mallozzi]

But you know, Puhart is a master mason.

[Interviewer]

He was, yeah, interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And he tells a story in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these, you know, what he would call kind of dark occult groups and societies and people trying to get him to join and he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

Well, Wernher von Braun was also, I believe, a Freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo pagan rituals as part of the German space program. He was also close with Walt Disney and I think they made a little movie together. And there's some Freemasonic symbolism there. There's launch pad 33 in real life that he sort of created. And then my buddy Danny Jones just did an interview with one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke, and the number one moon landing hoaxer person, Bart Cyberl. And Danny on the phone with me is like, dude, I'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't mkultra. And it's weird, you know, and it's like you have a picture of Jolly west on the set of 2001 Space Odyssey. You have, you know, there is.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I did hear about that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And so that's insane. It is insane. It is insane. And then you have these, you know, it's like Neil Armstrong looking like, you know, he's in a hostage video. Joe Rogan describes it like that, that after he comes back from the moon and so you have to wonder if there's some sort of weird. And if Puharich. I didn't know Puharich knew Wernher von Braun, one of the MKULTRA architects, in touch with the head of the American space program. It's weird.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, the other thing too, with the NASA connection with Puharich is again in the 60s he was doing a ton of contract work for all sorts of different agencies. But so this is actually in newspaper articles we found. But they were doing like telepathy experiments with astronauts and Puharich claims this. I've never heard it, we don't have the tape. But he claims that before they went to the moon, right. They didn't know the surface of the moon, what it would be like really. So they were saying, okay, how can we land a craft? Could it be hot? Is it cold, Is it spike, Whatever. So he claims that they send remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of what it would be like so they would feel comfortable with sending whatever if they went to send stuff there. And he says, yeah, somewhere in the NASA archives, I'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon. And he had the contracts from NASA. We have one that doesn't say that, but he clearly worked with them. We have documentation of that.

[Interviewer]

Didn't NASA also have a camp around with space children or whatever? Psychic?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, I've heard a lot about that, but I don't know much about that. That I mean, I know about obviously. Buhari, we can get into that. But yeah, I've heard a lot about that. That they're in the late 60s, there's somewhere in Florida there was like a NASA thing with kids. But I honestly, I don't know.

[Interviewer]

I think Gordon Cooper might talk about.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, dude, Gordon Cooper was very involved with Buharich.

[Interviewer]

So this is one of the, this is the guy who spent longer in the Earth's orbit, you know, in space than anyone prior to him. In the late 50s.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, he went to Ossining like many times and in his book he writes about going there, seeing experiments with the Faraday cage. Seeing the space kids. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Why was he so interested? I mean, why was a NASA astronaut interested in psychic research?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I don't know. I mean, well, I think Coop, Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn't he have some UFO stories or experiences or at least he was open to talking about that stuff?

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

We had some, some kind of craft flying overhead at pretty good altitude and flying the same kind of formation we fly in our fighters.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Were they planes? I mean, what.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Well, it turns out they didn't have wings, they were saucer shaped. We never couldn't get as high or as fast as they. So to really positively identify them. But they were metallic looking and saucer and shape.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So he was definitely like interested in this stuff. And yeah, so he went up there, everyone went up there. I mean the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, so the creator of Star Trek.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, so. So that's like something I read about and you know, I thought, oh, that's interesting. But in Puharich's archive, sure enough is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to be in possession of. But basically they would do these kind of roundtable esque channelings where like back then these prominent people at the time, we're now in mid-70s, would come there, spend time there and they would do these sessions. And Gene Roddenberry went up a lot, lot. And he makes mention on this one tape recording that he says, like I've said many times in the past, which would indicate that this wasn't the first time he was a part of a channeling session with them. But yeah, we have the tape where it was Roddenberry Puharich and Phyllis Schlemmer was the channeler and he does his thing, he hypnotically regresses her. She goes into a trance, she starts channeling the Nine and Roddenberry is there and it's like an hour, two hours of him asking questions about.

[Interviewer]

And that becomes the plot of Star Trek.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, I wouldn't say the plot. Cause Star Trek had started. I think people think of Deep Space Nine which that came out post these sessions and that, you know, of course Nine. And then there's a character in Deep Space Nine who's called Vanad, just like the early Nine channeler. So there's no question like that that's connected. And they actually wrote I have it and I don't know what will ever come of it. It's a long story. But Gene Roddenberry wrote a script called the Nine and it's all about his. He changed the names and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with Buhari and Phyllis, channeling the Nine. And we have an original copy of it and it's like amazing. And from what we understand, like Roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with like, I guess he was like drinking a lot and I don't know all the specifics, but it just like it, you know, as, as stuff in the, in the movie industry does, it fell apart or whatever and, and it never happened. But he was moved enough to write a whole, you know, 130 page script about. About his experience and it's called the Nine.

[Interviewer]

So trippy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you have.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So we should make it maybe.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, There you go. Yeah. You have hit Greg up, if you're interested.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, you also, you know, think about the Star Trek. You think about, you know, the Galactic Federation.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's mentioned in a couple of real world contexts too, one of which being you have Haim Eshed, who has won multiple the highest national security awards in Israel, is basically the founder of their space program and their equivalent of Space Force and was, I think, head of it for decades. And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about. About the Galactic Federation. And so do you think there's something more real going on and that the heads of various nation state space programs are aware of here?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Perhaps.

[Interviewer]

Does he mention anything about the Nine too, or who. Eshed. No, I know, maybe he. Okay.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Specifically.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But the other weird connection to Israel, Puharich and everything was he was close to with Itzhak Bentoff.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Who's, you know, a really interesting guy. There's some videos on YouTube of him. He's kind of like the Israeli Puharich. He kind of looks like him. And, you know, they have the same vibe going on, but they were good friends. I don't know the specifics of how they met. Apparently Bentoff was, you know, instrumental in hooking up Puharich with Geller. I don't know the truth to that, but. Well, they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of Geller, Puharich and Bentov in an apartment in Tel Aviv together. But, you know, Bentov is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's a fact. And Buharich was, again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape recording their conversations. Like him and Bentoff would sit around like you and I are right now, and they would record all their conversations, which is not weird necessarily, but also why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later? So there's a lot of clues like that that goes back to that Israeli connection. And Bentoff was one of a number of scientists who were being tracked at, you know, Puharich's house. Burned. Burned in 1978. To this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the fire department. And Bentoff around that time was also being monitored. Puharich was being monitored. And there's this big, like, this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues who are all claiming to be. To be monitored, be followed, harassed and so forth. And there was some story connecting a possible Israeli connection to this 1978 fire. But, yeah, that's a big, big question mark. I mean.

[Interviewer]

And Bentoff died in a plane crash, I believe. Yeah, sort of super mysteriously. He was friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic research pioneers and claimed to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called Stalking the Wild Pendulum, where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something, and. Fascinating guy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, they were close. Like I said, there's a couple tapes of them just, like, literally talking. And they would just record it and they would talk about all sorts of things, mostly, you know, their shared interest and consciousness and stuff. But, you know, then there's this other theory that Buharich could have not been a double agent and simply just a spy and going to kind of pick off information or, hey, we're buddies, we're into the same stuff. We should tape record our conversation.

[Interviewer]

Like, he was CIA and Ben Dog was Mossad or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But all I know is that stuff exists and you can put it together how, how you want, but, you know, I've told a lot of people, and again, it's not because I sort of fear for, you know, anything, but we really don't. And maybe it's deliberate. Maybe we're not supposed to have found anything, but we don't have any sort of, like, legitimate document or anything that really nail. And I think that's what's interesting about the film and the story in general is like. Like, you still question there's still research to be done into this because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on. We just have all this. All these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that would point to.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think the most interesting pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers, especially if you're cutting to the deeper architectures of reality. And I often think you should be kind of skeptical or distrust. You know, people who are, like, they're so sure it's just X or it's just Y. And in this case, it's clearly this kind of murky subject. But, I mean, that makes it so fascinating, right? It makes you just want to go deeper. And.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, I think that the sign, too, of the whole Geller thing being, like I mentioned earlier, like, him being involved maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but, yeah, he really opened up. I mean, anyone can hear it. I don't. Maybe it's been taken down, but it was this radio interview from 2019, and he was very open about, you know, I was scared. And he always uses the term like, booharj made me believe this. He made, you know, and he does credit. Buarge says, look, you know, know, I love the guy. He helped me. He helped me get to America. So it's not like he hates him or he speaks, but he's very clear. Like, you know, at that period, like, I was concerned about what was going on. He mentions being pretty sure that Buharich had slipped him in mushrooms. So, you know, there's that. I mean, I don't think he's making that up. No, I think it was like, all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean or about what he really experienced is the vibe that I got from.

[Interviewer]

He's a wild character. He has a very flamboyant online personality. He'll often make these videos directed at world leaders. He'll be like, trump, don't push that button, or Putin, stand down, or whatever. I know what's going to happen. And he'll predict the wild thing, things happening.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, he was doing that in the 70s. He was like, again, this idea that you could use this directed thought to change somebody's opinion or change somebody's direction. And he talks a lot about doing that back then.

[Interviewer]

I have a friend who worked at the Princeton parapsychology lab, and whenever I try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around, like, he's just a stage magician and he's, you know, I don't. I don't know how legit he is. He often said, you know, and I think they even have like, a. Some papers where they studied him at Princeton. And I think it's often, again, like, these people have something that's a little anomalous going on, and they play it up, you know.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, that's really. Actually my. Again with everything I said prior to him potentially being the sort of subject. But no, I actually firmly believe that. That he was one of. Probably a lot of people out there who have something. And again, it's just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you perform at every instance someone asks you? I mean, no, I'm not a. I mean, I don't know, but I would assume, like, you can't do it 100% of the time. Maybe you can do it 60% of the time. But I think that about him, because I'VE heard enough stories through all these people I've talked to and stuff who are like, yeah, he's. He had something. I think he liked the idea of the showmanship. But, yeah, he definitely had something going on.

[Interviewer]

Speaking of people with gifted psychic abilities, who are the space kids?

[Greg Mallozzi]

The space kids are. Well, there's a lot of them, and we only were able to track down and interview 1, 2, 3, 5 of them. But basically, when Geller was kind of blowing up, this was like mid-70s, early mid-70s, apparently. The story goes that these kids all over the world, specifically in the United States, in the UK and in China, which are just the stories that we were able to kind of look into. But these kids would see Geller on tv, and all of a sudden, like, that would cause them to just spontaneously, like, do something psychic. Like, they would pick up a spoon, it would bend, or they would, you know, go into the room and the. The. The drawers would, you know, poltergeist stuff. Right. And there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which, again, like, okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever, but, you know, it's like parents calling in the TV station. You know, Puharich claims, like, saying, what the hell's going on here? You know, my kid just did this. My kid just bent a spoon. My kid just, you know, touched the refrigerator and it short circuited, you know, all sorts of stuff. And apparently it was because they saw him on TV and something happened, something clicked, and their psychic abilities just kind of came out in that moment.

[Interviewer]

It's like a contagion of psychic powers.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, so that's apparently what was happening. And so Puharich, of course, learns this, and he's very intrigued. So he starts to visit some of these cases of kids who are doing this. And eventually, I guess, is. So eventually he's so convinced that this is real and that these kids actually have this sort of sudden emergence of ability that he brings them. Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There's a lot online about how he collected all these kids, almost like an X Men kind of thing, which is partially true. But mostly he would lecture all over the country, in Canada and at places in. And people. And we say kids, we're talking like, teen, you know, early. Apparently there were like, some very young, you know, five, four, five, six year old kids, but the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all, you know, in their early 20s, maybe 18, youngest. But they would see him at a lecture and they would approach him and say, hey, you know, we gotta talk. Like I have these abilities and you are obviously the guy who knows about this and I need your help. Basically they would kind of go to him. So at that point he thought, okay, there's enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that I should start a research program. And so that's when he sort of collects like a large group of kids. I think it was like again, online, there's all sorts of stories, but it was really only like maybe like a dozen kids, I think, think give or take. But he kind of invites them to Ossining where he's living and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing psychic research on these kids. And I think again, not unlike the earlier venode roundtable stuff, like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment too because of the general nature of kids showing up at the house of a known intelligence, connected scientists, et cetera and so forth. But basically he collected them and just started this camp where they did, you know, kind of went through the different abilities, tested them. And that all led to, to getting back to the nine because a lot of these kids claim they had some sort of encounter or UFO experience. And so Puhard said, okay, kind of like grouped them, okay, all the kids who've had an experience here, you know, not. And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through even through these kids who most of which never knew about, about the nine and most of which were kids who like, you hear a lot with these experiencers who like, they didn't want to talk about it, they didn't want fame or they were just like, I'm actually scared and I want to know what's going on with myself. They weren't trying to do anything more than. Can you help me figure out what's

[Interviewer]

going on on after, after you've looked at this for 10 plus years. Do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who've seen UFOs represent something real that's sort of, you know, non human or extraterrestrial coming through these people? Or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by, by Puharich?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I think it's, I don't want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time, and this is, we're talking 74 when this started. 73, 74. And keep in mind, this is right around the time the Sri Remote viewing stuff starts. And keep in mind how Put off tells us that he went to Puharich's house in Ossining, heard all about the nine, and that Buharich was apparently communicating with this thing called the Nine Wild, and then didn't really say much.

[Interviewer]

Has Hal Puthoff never talked about this?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No. I mean, in the film he does.

[Interviewer]

I gotta ask him.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But he basically just tells a story about. Well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the subject of all this, Buhari. So I don't know. I wasn't there at the interview. Someone else did it. I mean, it was great. He did it, but he basically was like, Puharich was more connected than anyone ever knew. And really, he sort of alludes to that. But he does say, yeah, we went up to his house. There's footage of him and Targ at Ossining sitting on the front steps. So my theory is that. And people have talked about this and it's out there, but I think that there was this sort of. And we know for a fact that Buharich was part of. Of the SRI program. A lot of people, Puthoff himself say, no, he wasn't. He just simply brought Geller and that was it. He disappeared. Not true. There's a pay stub in Puharich's archives that is from Sri to lab nine, Buharich's lab from 73.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Greg Mallozzi]

We brought it up to Put Off. He said, oh, I don't. Who knows? It could have just. It's whatever. It's nothing, basically. But to me, that proves he was connected, because I think the story most people read is just like, he brought Geller, dropped him off there and was just like, you know, have fun, basically. But I think that Puharich's house, which was now called Lab 9, which, again, like Intellectron and a couple others he had, which are no use getting into, but he just had these sort of, like, front companies, which I just think it's obvious, you know. So at this time, he had Lab nine. And I think that Lab nine was doing SRI research, you know, on children. Because essentially a lot of the tapes are remote viewing. There's no other way to look at it. It's okay. What's going on in this location? What time is this such and such general gonna be at this place? When should we go here? And it was actually. Speaking of Adam Curry, I think it was actually Adam who brought up this idea that, you know, a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis, you know, there's a protocol, right? It's either like a pendulum or whatever it is a countdown. And I think the nine and something somehow like, like this, we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these, it was an in if that makes sense for some of these kids to sort of want to participate. Because again it goes back to if you really want to test like a kid's a real, you know, 20 year old person, is a 20 year old a better psychic than an 80 year old, you know, eventually you're going to have to, to find a 20 year old and do an experiment with them. And I think what was happening was like if you go to a 20 year old and say hey, especially at the time with Uri Geller being famous, whatever, Star wars this and that, and you say, hey, do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can communicate with these beings and I can put you in, it's safe and I can put you in this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them. Obviously you would say, oh, okay, that's interesting, that's cool. You're not gonna say, hey, do you wanna come be a part of a covert mind control experience? You're not gonna approach it that way. So that's my theory is that that was sort of his way. And one of the space kids whose name I won't mention, she basically admitted that or she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the 9 was basically just like this san for us to or some analogy like that where the Nine is basically just like this sandbox for us to play in or something. And again it was off. It wasn't in the interview. It was like one of this many phone calls we had and I always stuck with me. So I think that at that time, again you've got same years remote viewing experiments are starting at sri. You've got the connection to SRI via some sort of pay stub going directly to Lab 9. And you've got all these young kids who on the tape, ships are doing remote viewing.

[Interviewer]

So but the question I want to push you on this is like remote viewing is used for the US from 72 to 95 and probably now to like actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things. Drop Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, you know, whatever. Do you think that this council of nine were real, you know, extraterrestrial or non human beings communicating through these space kids? Or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts and that was through the Nine or whatever. And they had some, some, you know, I mean, clearly they did have some abilities to do that.

[Greg Mallozzi]

The, the, the, the evidence would point to the latter. I mean, that's, that's, that's the best way I can answer that.

[Interviewer]

God, that's crazy. That's a.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And that would go back.

[Interviewer]

It's very deflating, I'm sure for a lot of the ufo.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, it is. And again, like, I don't want to come across as this like negative skeptic person, because I'm not. But again, it goes back to like, if you're trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades, like, and that's what you're hearing, you know, that's what you, that's what you have.

[Interviewer]

But what is if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this state involves saying, hey, you're, you're contacting the 9 and whatever. It's some protocol. And it sounds like a hypnotic technique.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But then some seem super open ended and they just seem to connect with the Nine. How do you sort of make sense of that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, I don't know. And that goes back to the kind of, of, you know, I think Jeffrey Mishlove brings this up of this sort of trickster element, the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they're tricking you and sometimes it's real, sometimes it isn't. I think there was, you know, with Buharich, like, again, it's always that question of like, where did he stand with like, like, is this real research that he passionately believes in and he's trying to come to some sort of reality of the ET phenomena or was it just all MK Ultra? And again, I don't think it was all MK Ultra mind control stuff, but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because again, in some of these sessions, and this is strange, is that on some of the sessions he'll be like, okay, here we are with this space kid and their mom is here and she's. This is like the tape record we're hearing. And on those sessions it's like typical, okay, the Nine, the world is beautiful, we need to save humanity, et cetera, et cetera. Then there's other tapes that are like, like, you know, what time is the best to, to remote view the Kremlin so we can get information, you know. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Crazy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So I think it's, there was a way of like, okay, I need to kind of, you know, give an example to, to maybe other people around to say, hey, look, this is what we're doing. Okay? See, you sat in on a session, so now you know what it's like. Like. And then when those people aren't around, it kind of gets to the. The serious stuff is again, what it, this is what I'm. You're hearing, what I'm hearing. It's all based off that. It's not like really my personal, you know, hardcore beliefs. It's just like, oh, okay, this is what I'm hearing. Yeah, I think anyone would kind of conclude that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But again, I think Puharich, like, and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy about him and his story is like, I think he believed. I know he believed in a lot of paranormal stuff, but I think he got sort of under the thumb of the intelligence world early on, and I just don't think that he could kind of get away from that. And I think you often hear it's like the Mafia, like, you don't just, just leave. And when you're, when you're that involved as he was, you know, to say, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm good, you know, And I. So I think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do. And I think that's like a big part of the film. And what I wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about him out there. I mean, there's tons of. Have you read the Stargate Conspiracy? The book, it's really good. It came out in the 90s, and it was the first book that really talked about a lot. Like, this book had the story that I told you about of the guy in Florida who woke up with the tooth implant. And this is the first book that really exposed, basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved. He's an awful person. He's an evil genius, but, you know, it's not true. And I think that I hope to get that across in the film. And I think we do, because, like a big part of that, that research, I don't think he wanted to do. I think he, in a way was forced to do it, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the UFO legacy program that is always proverbially discussed, but, you know, usually in a very kind of high level, fuzzy way, I think that's probably the case with A lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into. In certain cases, they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that, you know, some, you know, behind the Iron Curtain science, you know, group in the U.S. you know, during kind of Cold War secrecy era, already knew. And they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to, to work on things in contexts that they weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I'm sure that that's the case with him because again, I don't want to come across as someone who's trying to put him out there, because I'm not. I mean, I got to know his family really well. I'm very close with them. And they were great when I showed them the sort of final product which really gets into this stuff. And they were like, you did a good job because you didn't shy away from that. And I think you illustrated it well. But they were even like, wow, there's so much in here we had no idea about. We literally had no idea. You are telling us stuff that we never even heard before. And so that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it. But the nine, again, like, I just keep thinking. I think about it a lot. And again, like, the answer just is, I don't know. But what I've heard and what I've had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was a made up. A made up thing.

[Interviewer]

Fascinating. Well, I mean, that in and of itself seems a little messed up, as does.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, slipping somebody mushrooms or, you know, telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't, or quote, unquote, teleporting them and throwing them through a window when they didn't. You know, like, these things aren't cool, you know?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No. And again, like, I think if you watch, if anyone watches footage of Puharich Alekshik, he's the most jovial, funny night, you know, like, he's not this like, monster person. And that's why I quite frankly think makes him interesting and an interesting subject for a film, because he's complicated and he's again, I think, being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do and not to ruin the end of the film. But he basically admits that. He basically admits that is what was going on with him. He warns future researchers basically, don't do what I did essentially, is what his message Is if you look at the

[Interviewer]

Zimbardo prison experiments at Stanford or whatever, where these prison guards start to get really self important, or Stanley Milgram's shock experiments, and then you combine that with the power of the CIA at the time, I'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things. And does that fully exonerate you? Probably not, but it's. Yeah, I mean, I think the best version, which I think your documentary really gives, is the nuanced one, which shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a position like that.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And there's just no question the level of, you know, how deeply connected he was to intelligence. I mean, there's a paper trail, obviously it. So there's this. There's no way to kind of beat around that bush, I think. Again, I've just, I've read so much online and there's a lot of speculation, but at the end of the day, like those people don't haven't seen the materials that, you know, we had.

[Interviewer]

So that's so interesting. Were there any other experiments? They were obviously channeling, they were using these sort of Faraday chambers. They had this machine that produced tones. Any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, here's what's interesting is that. And you see in the film, like getting back to this idea of the Nine being this kind of endpoint just to like get things done in the 70s, we're talking 74 through 76, you know, middle east war, right, going on. And Puharich and specifically Phyllis Schlemmer, he was still working with her then, but. And all the space kids, they weren't specifically going on these trips, but they would literally have a session, right, with the Nine and they would do group sessions where it would be like two people, Buharich and two other people, him and three other people, him and six other people, people. And that would apparently bring the message through more strongly and so forth. But in that time they're getting messages from the Nine saying, you need to go to Egypt, you need to go to any Middle east area, you need to go to Russia and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for somebody to just go to during that period. In fact, one of the guys working with Buharich at that time, John Whitmore, he was a British guy who got really involved. He even says in an interview, you normally could not even get into these countries at this time, yet Puharich with his psychic, were going constantly because the Nine said, you have to go here, you have to go there. And so he kind of hints at like, well, well, was that really the Nine? Or once again, was Puharich involved in something else that he had to be in these areas at this time, you know, under the auspices that this was a psychic, you know, this was the Nine telling them to go there. Phyllis Schlemmer completely questions everything. And you know, way later in her life, really, she did an interview. She said, he used the TD100 machine on me all the time. Time. I never knew what it did. I never questioned what it did. And so you just have to ask, how is it that Puharich is able to go to these places during that time, get into very specific locations, often involving very high ranking government people, and it's all just, oh, hey, the Nine told us to come here, so we're here. And so a lot of people speculate. You know, I've heard stories of, of Christian missionaries who were actually spies and something like that going on. Again, it's interesting to go down that road to think about. And nothing we have concretely proves that, but I just think the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together, it does seem like, what if that was the COVID And, oh, this guy's so crazy, he actually thinks a psychic is telling him, oh, just let him go, what a kook. And meanwhile, he's doing whatever he needs to do there.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for something more vital that clearly was actually working and functional.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And he actually, on these tapes gives this goes back to the remote viewing stuff of. Some of the questions that they're asking are like, what is the code name that the Russian guerrilla soldiers are using? So we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code name. So then that begs the question, why would an alien be asking those types of questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing talking to the Nine? But to go back to the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go to the Great Pyramid in the same time and do all sorts of experiments there, really? And he just loved going there. Like, he was obsessed with the pyramid. He's obsessed with the history, all the Egyptian God. So that's not. Not.

[Interviewer]

And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So that was something he was like obsessive about. We have tape recordings of him meditating in the King's chamber in 76. And he did experiments with one of the space kids in the pyramid and they brought through this information. Apparently they're channeling this Egyptian God and some pretty weird information lined up during that session. So then that goes back to, like, it's almost like, okay, I have to do my job for the CIA and on my off time I can go in the pyramid and do some cool stuff I'm interested in. That's just kind of what it seems because, like, again, there's no mind manipulation, dark stuff going on there. It's very clearly him. Like, I'm going to meditate in the king's chamber. Like, well, what does that have to do with, you know, MK Ultra? So I just think, like. And again, this goes to, like, his death and the mystery around that where I think, like, there was a situation too where he may have been, you know, on payroll for, you know, XYZ intelligence agencies and going to do these things, but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted. And maybe that was. He shouldn't have done that.

[Interviewer]

You think they took him out as a result maybe of that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, I think part of it is that because again, he's going to Egypt, right? Because the Nine are saying, you have to go here, you have to go to this location to meditate, this and that. But I think he's going, okay, well, I'm already in Egypt and there's the Great Pyramid. And I've been wanting to go in there anyways, so I'm already here, I'm gonna go, you know, but he's there, there maybe on a mission and, hey, you know, don't screw around kind of thing. I think there was a lot of that going on. And his death is completely mysterious. What.

[Interviewer]

What happened?

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

You can see the stairway right through this window where my father allegedly fell down. And they found him right at the bottom of the stairs. We don't really know what killed him.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, so there's a couple of things. He was sick at the time, but not, I believe, not enough that would have caused this to happen. But basically it was 95 and around this time he was very vocal about his life. Like he was doing these sort of lecture tours at sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff. And he was being very open about his past. And it was one of these lectures at that time where he said, you know, look, I'll admit it. I worked for this part of the CIA. My boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis, mind manipulation stuff.

[Interviewer]

Who is his boss?

[Greg Mallozzi]

He doesn't name his boss. But you know what? He might actually let me think he does. I have to think about it.

[Interviewer]

Did you figure out.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, yeah, I know it, trust me. It's just in my crazy head. Puharich head. But. But I'll remember it. But basically. And so he says, yeah, that's what I did. I was a consultant at the time. And so he opens up about a lot of that stuff. He literally says, I can produce in your mind the image of an alien experience. His assistant, what at the time was a woman who was on this tape that Dick Russell recorded I told you about, when Buhari was in the hospital. There's a part of the tape where Dick Russell goes outside. I think they're having a smoke or something. And he's just kind of like, hey, look, give it to me straight. What's going on with this guy? And she opens up too, and she says, yeah, he told me about things he's done that he's worried for his life about things. She says, he, using flashing lights, using all of that stuff, was able to create the UFO experience. That stuff was all created. She says, so what? She was opening up about that on this tape.

[Interviewer]

And so he would stage UFOs is showing up as well.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, I think what she's. I think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this. This controller's idea is that. Yeah, like, kind of, I guess, more implanting the. The. The idea that you've had an encounter or, you know, you've been abducted or so like, he was involved, basically making the point he was involved in that kind of stuff, that kind of research. And again, you know, you gotta ask, like, why. Why, you know, like, why was it always, like, the UFO thing, but all that was going on, like, right before he died. You know, that tape was recorded less than a year before he died, but he was found at the bottom of the stairs, he fell, and he passed away. And at the time, he had all these. He was still. And again, this goes back to, like, what did he really believe? He was still living with this group of, like, women who were, like, psychics apparently. And he. He. They lived with him and he was still, like, you know, doing stuff with them or whatever. But. But conveniently, that day, they. No one else was there at the house when they were usually always at the house. And Puharich has this, like, weird legal pad that he wrote, like, very soon before this, this incident occurred, where he. He fell down the stairs, where he's basically, like, outlining why he Thinks he's being monitored. He names people that he believes have come into his life who are. Who are there to basically harm him and take him out. He claims, again, this is either like, the work of someone completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously, he claimed that they.

[Greg Mallozzi]

This, this. And again, it makes sense because these psychic people would kind of, like, show up even to this day and be like, hey, you know, you should study me, and this kind of thing. So he. And he was a nice guy again, so he would want. He would let people in and he would welcome them. And so he claimed that there was a people like that, that. Who were actually basically out to get him, and that they installed this ELF emitter in his television set. So when he would turn on the tv, he would get hit by this elf that would be. And he was a physician, he was a medical doctor, so he would know what was going on with his own body. And he writes in this legal pad like, this is happening to me. I can tell he would test himself every day.

[Interviewer]

Well, he also developed a lot of these techniques, right?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, he developed.

[Interviewer]

They're using what he developed on him.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. I mean, again, if this were to be believed, which I quite frankly do believe what he says in this, but he basically, Is this legal, Pat? And it's all these events kind of leading up to why he believes they're out to get him, basically. Right. But, yeah, coincidentally, the day he's found, there's no one at the house, and not right before that, but a few years before his death, he had been approached by the CIA to head up a ELF research department. Basically, again, he writes this. I found some evidence to prove that this probably happened, but there was apparently a department being set up just to study ELF weapons and so forth. Again, a lot of that was going on in the late 70s, and he said no. And apparently some argument ensued. And he said, get out of here, because they came to his house. He's kind of recounting this in his notes. And the guy that he said came on behalf of the CIA to talk to him is a guy we know was involved in the CIA.

[Interviewer]

Who's that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

This guy named Bob Beckham who's in the film. And he was another Puharich type where he got roped into a lot of things I think he wasn't necessarily wanting to do. So that happened where he refused that and said, no, get the hell out of here, et cetera. So all of that Stuff was leading up to 95, and he was found dead. Coincidentally, the Stargate program ends in 95.

[Interviewer]

I literally made that connection in my mind. Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And coincidentally, this guy, Grinberg. Jacobo Grinberg, yes. Who? There's a great film, Shout out to Ida, my friend. He made this great film about him in 95. Less than a month after Bukharis dies, this guy disappears. Grinberg. And if you see the film, the story basically is he was involved in very similar research. Basically. Basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real. And to this day, they don't know what happened to him. That's still a missing person.

[Interviewer]

Did he ever meet Puharich?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yep. They met when Puharich was in exile in Mexico after his house was burned. They met in Mexico in less than a month. After Buharit was found dead, Grinberg disappeared. So again, what do you say? It's all coincidence and you move on? Or you say there's something so bizarre.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Grinberg. The whole thing about him is like, he realized we live in a Matrix and then he had left the Matrix or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But what's interesting about him is, again, it's literally still like an open case. They've never figured it out. And of course, a lot of people say, oh, he. He got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they're using him. And you know what's crazy is on some random message board, this was like, years ago, I saw a post that was somebody like, I know for a fact that Buharich never died and he was taken in by the government and he's still alive. And someone I know. And the weirdest thing is a. I was skeptical of that, but I was like, years later, I remember reading that. And I. And I spent hours and. Hour and days trying to find this mess, but I could not find it for the life of me. I tried everything I could possibly do, and I couldn't. I couldn't find it. So that was weird.

[Interviewer]

That's super weird.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it just got erased or something, I get.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And. But that was the. That's, like, the real theory of Grinberg. Like, again, the doc is really good, but there's, like, actually, you know, legitimate proof that, like, he. He was sort of taken by the government.

[Interviewer]

So that's what your friend who made the movie thinks, that he was actually taken.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in the story agrees with, because everything just points to, like, that. That happening. So that was 95. January 95. Was Buharich's death. February 95. Grimberg goes missing. Stargate officially ends in 95. Government puts out newspaper articles all over the news. You know, Stargate, there's nothing to it. It was all bunk. And keep in mind, Bukharich at that time was lecturing about all of that and being honest, being open about all the experiments he did with, you know, Stargate. So I think Annie Jacobson alludes to it. Like, I just think it was this classic, you know, he knows too much and he can. He can't be out there talking and he's experienced too much. He knows too much, and it's not good.

[Interviewer]

So I could see them seeing him as a liability late in life. Maybe he feels remorse about some of the things that he did, and he's speaking openly. And they're probably just trying to accelerate the research in the black. What are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to?

[Greg Mallozzi]

So basically, with the space kids, yeah, there were a lot, lot. And again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give my. Myself credit for, because a lot of people are like, I can't believe it took you so long and this and that. But a lot of it was, like, just getting people to talk because, you know, you could imagine these people, like, don't want to. And again, this is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these. These people, like, weren't looking to be in the spotlight. In fact, they didn't want to be. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids, who I now consider good friends. But that's what took so long. And I always thought, like, in order to make a really cool film, you gotta get these space kids. It's like stranger things in real life. That's what would make this thing work. And so I was just convinced, we gotta get these people. And we got five of them. But again, there was, like, a lot more. A few of them were like, you know, never reach out to me again. I want nothing to do with this. So what did they say?

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's why five is amazing. What did they say?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, so basically, like, yeah, what I did was I somehow was able to track them down just basically through, like, in Puharich's archives and things. And again, on the tapes, like, he would say a name or he would write their name. Well, actually, in fact, in one of his journals, he had, like, wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it's pretty Easy to like Google people. But yeah, a lot the ones we got were again, after kind of talking to them and saying, hey, I'm, you know, trying to do like a level headed, you know, portrayal of Buharich. I'm not some crazy conspiracy person. Like, after all that. Yeah, they were really open, but, you know, they basically talked a lot about like, what it was like being at his house at that time, which again was kind of cultish. I mean, if you want to look at it that way in the sense that like, other than the space. Because there was just all sorts of other Sarfatti, Jack Sarfatti being one of them. Like him and his kind of group of physicist people would go up there. It was just kind of like. Really? Yeah, like a hub of just any. All these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang

[Interviewer]

out, out for people that don't know. Sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected and studied under, you know, very impressive people who, you know, were Manhattan Project, you know, pioneers. And he has a model of, of time travel and warp drive physics.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And he, he lives in the Bay Area and he's very outspoken, loves to call people schmuck. He's written about in the Hippies Saved Physics by, by David Kaiser, this MIT guy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so I didn't know he had any interaction with Puharich. That's amazing.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, he went to his house because

[Interviewer]

he also, I believe Sarfati, the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was, he claims that as a teenager he was in some gifted and talented education program and he was, he gets a call from the future saying you're going to meet the others, you're going to be work on like building UFOs essentially, which he believes his work touches on building UFOs.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And this is a guy who could keep up with, you know, any top theoretical physicist in the world. Like, he's, he's a real physicist. He studied under Hans Bet, you know, at Cornell and stuff. Yeah. And he says he gets a call from the future and then, and then, you know, they tell him when he's going to meet the others. And then he ends up meeting Hal put off like later or whatever. And it's this weird synchronicity, you know, it's so strange. So he's interacting with Andrei Puharich.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, well, you know, it's a crazy connection I just thought of in that story. So the Sarfati story quickly is. Yeah, he got this call from this metallic Voice, which is what Some of the.

[Interviewer]

What.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Geller claims this as well, actually, but really? Yeah. So he gets this call. Metallic voice that was some sort of, you know, alien intelligence. But I don't know if you remember his part of the story where his. I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was involved in the army or army intelligence. And one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy, Wilson Green. He brings up this guy, Wilson Green, and that guy, Wilson Green was working with Buharich in the 50s at the round Table, doing everything they were doing there.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So do you. Did you ever ask him point blank, hey, Jack, like, was any of your stuff. Do you think it was seeded by these sort of, you know, mind control people or.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I mean, I think, like, he's open about that being a possibility as far as that. He is, yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name and in Puharich's journals, like he has one where he's kind of listing all these people. That's when I first told you about the Townsend Brown connection.

[Interviewer]

This is insane. Yeah, this is the craziest thing. Tell everybody about this.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, in one of his journals, it was just him recounting, like, he would often go to D.C. for like, meetings. Puharaj would. And this is early 50s again, which, weird that the same year you're channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you're going to D.C. to meet with all these people. But he would just like, keep very meticulous journals about what he did, where he went, who he met. And he would just like, hey, I met this person for lunch, met that person. And so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with, I think it was the Army Psychological Warfare Department. And that's the same guy Sarfati references. But in these journals he mentions meeting Townsend Brown and spending the day with him. And it's very brief. Unfortunate, actually. Maybe we could do this together. There's part of the page that's like so worn you can't really read what it says, but it's kind of a, you know, a brief mention that he met with Brown and spent the afternoon. He says something like spent the afternoon with him to discuss the lot or something like this.

[Interviewer]

I know some kid who like, helped. I think it's called the Vesuvius Project, and he helped decode this ancient papyri. And so if he could do that, hopefully he could get us this, you know, this transcript. That's crazy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So he Met him and this was again, I'm, I'm positive it was 53. Was that that journal? So yeah, he was going there. So yeah, that's how I, I found the guy.

[Interviewer]

And it brings up all these questions of like, were people like Wernher von Braun and Brown's ideas somehow seeded by like MK Ultra adjacent things? Like probably not because you have like, you know, Wernher von Braun goes way back to like, you know, early journal. He was clearly like a, you know, a rocketry genius. Like, you know, as a young kid was way into this like, you know, like in his teenage years or was like, you know, if you think about like what would be one of the main use cases of MK Ultra, it would be like keeping secret science sort of on lock, maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it, wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive shit like who knows? And Townsend Brown, to me, obviously I'm very high conviction in his stuff. The audience will give me shit because I talk about him all the time. But I think he's like the godfather of American kind of in the black dark science. Like whole tech trees that come from anti gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics. I think kind of arise from Townsend Brown. And so I wonder what that meeting was like. The time then was weird. Overall, I think what people don't realize about the 50s is like there's a letter between. I think it's Claude Shannon who invented information theory, was at Princeton. Information theory is the basis of all modern computation, and William Shockley who invented the modern semiconductor, you know, Bell Labs essentially. And it was a letter and he goes, you know, my, my friend, you have to meet my friend. He's really interesting. You know, he's into all this, you know, interesting science stuff or whatever and it turns out he's talking about L. Ron Hubbard. And so the point is, is like it's this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who'd be engaging in like bizarre seances, esp. Paranormal stuff that wasn't outside the Overton Window, like.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And so, yeah, anyway, how would you speculate on. Have you speculated on the connection between Townsend Brown and Puharish?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Nothing more than just they were probably interested in similar, similar things. But it's odd because he said it was in D.C. so Brown was there for whatever reason.

[Interviewer]

Well, Brown was probably deep intelligence. I mean there's a story of towns and bread ground engaging in a UFO crash retrieval in, I think it's in the late 50s and it's like, I think Hartford, Connecticut. And this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by a professor there named Robert Brown. It then ends up at Moonwatch at Harvard, which is connected with Blue Book. And Robert Friend and Ja Allen Hynek have possession of this, you know, material. And Townsend Brown walks in to Harvard, flashes his credentials and takes the material. And you hear stories like that. You have telegraphs that I think, or telegrams that his daughter, I think, has. I know this, I think through this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lundquist. And I think she says that there's a telegram between William Stevenson, who's the inspiration for James Bond. Bond, that Ian Fleming, he's Churchill's super spy who was like, you know, coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the oss. He was like as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence. And there's a telegram from him to Josephine, who's Townsend Brown's wife, because Townsend Brown had flown behind enemy territory, parachuted into Nazi Germany in 45 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff. And it's this telegram says, you know, from William Stevenson. Your husband is okay. You know, he's. He's been injured, but he's okay. And he's on his way back to the US or whatever. So I can give you like 50 other stories like that. Like Curtis LeMay, I mean, his daughter said, I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown says Curtis LeMay chases Townsend Brown down the stairs because he's so interested in his inventions and stuff. And so this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and military elite. So it makes sense if Puharich was as well on the kind of the psychic vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we understand. And there's some spooky science stuff. And the anti gravity connects with the psychic stuff. Nuts and bolts, materials, they all kind of connect at the top. Those two guys seem like very central nodes.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of similarities with what you said. You know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play. I mean, there's again, I could give you 50 examples of Puharich doing that kind of thing that I've heard. And so, yeah, and I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others, like, I don't think these were sort of meant to be seen. You know, these were like buried in his. In his records, in fact, like in the film you'll see. Like, his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that, like, not long before he passed away, like, he had made mention, like, these papers I have in my house, someone needs to take them. I don't trust giving them my children for their safety. And so I think this is stuff that was not supposed to be read, you know, or seen.

[Interviewer]

It's amazing.

[Greg Mallozzi]

There's a lot of other names. I researched them all. He met with Dulles. I don't. I guess I didn't mention that.

[Interviewer]

Wild.

[Greg Mallozzi]

He literally, again, in the Journal met. He's like, you know, says something like, you know, wait. It was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in, and we had. We talked and. So obviously, you're up to something serious.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Doing that.

[Interviewer]

You're meeting with the third director of the CIA, who. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, if. Yeah. If anybody was kind of running the government behind the government, it was Dulles. So.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

D. Yeah. Some of the Wilder testimonies.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, the Space Kids.

[Interviewer]

Space Kids, Yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, yeah, they. So they just basically recounted a lot of, like, what they experienced a lot of the channeling sessions. So A Wilder Story. Is this one of the Space Kids? His name's Jaime. He's from Mexico City. Great guy. And again, he was somebody who would never have wanted to appear in a documentary. You know, like, his life was totally fine. You know, he didn't need to talk about this. But he did, because eventually he told me, like, if you're willing to tell the real story, like, I'll talk, because he knows, like, I did. There's just so much, like, BS stuff out there about Puharich and everything. But he told me a story about. He. He was meditating at one time. He was doing an experiment with Buharich's assistant, this woman who's in the film. They were doing an experiment. They were meditating together, and they were sitting in a room together, both meditating. And he says that at one point, she got up and she went over to him and she touched his forehead with her finger. And when she did that, this big, big blue ball, I guess this, like, ball of energy, as he describes it, appeared. Next thing he knew, he came to. She was all the way across the room against the wall, and he was back up against the wall, and he doesn't remember what happened. And the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead. Some sort of burst of blue light. She flew across the room.

[Interviewer]

Room.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And he told me that. And he said, look, you can talk to the assistant, she'll corroborate this. And I did, and she did. And his theory was just like some connection must have been occurring. And. And what do you do with that? Because something I learned, which was very bizarre because this was another thing that Buharich didn't kind of open up about until way later in his life, is he says, and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up. Like he says in his own words, he invented this prosthetic finger that would have a chip with a certain ELF frequency that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody's forehead with this, it would be the exact frequency that would knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in in order to do channeling. And so he could basically just like, I could go like this to you, and you would fall into the thing. He says that. One of the kids says, yeah, I remember that. So was this instance with Jaime and the finger something to do with that? What was it? Not? I don't know. But that's one of his stories that was really bizarre.

[Interviewer]

Any UFO related stories?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, there was a lot of. There were a couple. Like the classic, you know, right now there's a UFO that's sort of hovering over this session and. And some claim to have witnessed that. That there was a few stories like that.

[Interviewer]

So that would be in the, like, his protocol. Like, he'd be saying that or like they'd be like, automatically channeling that.

[Greg Mallozzi]

That would be like, apparently the nine, you know, saying that, saying this through them. Yeah, but then there was a lot of.

[Interviewer]

But, like, if we're to get super concrete about this, like, is that him beaming the message right now? There is a ufo, you know, above our head? Or is it like, creating some weird protocol and then, like, what happens to them happens to them, and we have no idea where that content is coming from.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I don't know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It's strange because a lot of these sessions are very long. Like, some of them are literally like two hours long, you know, and it's just, I hate to say, it's kind of like you just need to hear it to kind of like, to understand, because it really is mind boggling because I constantly go from like, this is an experiment, this has been to like, oh, no, this is like, literally, he's making contact with an extraterrestrial.

[Interviewer]

Say he were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value. How would you characterize these nine beings and what they want for humanity?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, it's like I said before, they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves and that if there's a way they can prevent that, that than they, they want to. And they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that you know, we hear a lot about. Now they kind of say like we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that, that are occurring on nuclear bases.

[Interviewer]

But then now I'm like, you're making me think this shit's real. The re the reason. I'd love to be cynical about it, but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since the 40. There's this guy, Bud Clem, there's this UFO and nukes docum. It's all based on Robert Hastings. Great work in his book. It's really good. And I made kind of a, you know, another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel. But you have this guy Bud Clem as early as 1945 in Hanford where he's talking about these fireballs in the sky and they did this Project Twinkle, which was deleted from the Air Force archives. Lincoln La Paz, this meteorite expert at University of New Mexico is talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propulsed, flashing that like aren't explained by anything present. And just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous. And then you're telling me the Atomic Energy Commission gave him money?

[Greg Mallozzi]

They gave him like over a million dollars.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So like if I were them, I'd be like, try to tap into what the hell is, you know, controlling.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole. Yeah, obviously. What was I going to say? You know, you're. See now you're, now you're entering what I've been in for like years of this constant, like, wait a second now. I think. There was a lot of, well, you know, the classic thing where like with UFO disinformation they often say like some of it, you know, some real stuff is sort of peppered into.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I think it was that kind of thing too where like maybe there was real, you know, et, UFO related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course.

[Interviewer]

Well, what connection did you just make when I said the Atomic Energy Commission thing?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, what I was thinking was there is, I think I sent you something about this guy a while ago and I have to say now I don't know enough, so I don't want to go too much into it, but there's a guy, his name's Oliver Reiser. He was a philosophy professor at University of Pittsburgh in the 60s and 70s and he wrote a book called Cosmic Humanism, which I've only read some of. But it's basically this idea, like his whole worldview is this idea that everything in the world is just run on frequency. Tone sound. He thinks it's like the universe is all sound. And that's how. That's how interstellar travel works. That's how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this sound tones again. There's this big connection here with this tone stuff. But anyways, Buharis knew this guy. They exchanged dozens and dozens of letters. But this guy's theory, riser was the ability to communicate with ET UFO is through tones, through sound. And he was again so complex I can barely understand it. But him and Puhari would exchange these letters that were like two masters going back and forth about this stuff, like diagrams, charts, math, and you gotta think like they obviously were onto something. And again, this goes back for the hundredth time of Bukharit's real interest in this stuff, but rising. Yeah, this was his theory that the way to communicate with non human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound. And so you get Puharich doing that basically where he's using tones and sound with space kids and can you, while they're in a trance, there's a lot of experiments where like, I'm going to play this certain tone and can you. You kind of like connect with that tone while you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone? Where is it bringing you and what do you hear now? All sorts of stuff like that. So I guess what I'm getting at is maybe there was some real research there that had to do with something that wasn't just a mind control thing, because this guy rides. Reiser was brilliant. I mean, in his obituary, Albert Einstein said he was like, you know, a genius.

[Interviewer]

Is that true?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, Albert Einstein said, like Reiser is. He had some quote about him being, you know, this genius.

[Interviewer]

That's insane because Reiser talks about like parapsychology and mind matter stuff. And you think of Einstein as being totally opposed to.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, well, I think with Reiser, like a lot of guys, like he started doing. Doing more legitimate research, but he got obsessed with this, again, this theory of tone sound connecting the universe. This is how everything works. And so him and Puharich were exchanging a lot of letters about like, do you have the ability to create such and such a tone and at what speed should it spin within the, you know, complex stuff, but would lead me as a layperson to think like, okay, clearly they, like, they're talking about something serious here, you know, so fascinating.

[Interviewer]

And the Atomic Energy Commission funding it,

[Greg Mallozzi]

I find literally the same years he's exchanging letters with Riser, 63, 64, that's when he gets the contract from Atomic Energy Commission. I mean, it's all, there's, there's, it's a paper trail.

[Interviewer]

And the 50s UFOs showing up around nuclear bases is this ubiquitous thing. It's constant. It's all over various CIA, Air Force documents. You know, I sort of document a lot of this stuff. Hastings documents it. It was definitely a thing. In 64, there's a famous case at Vandenberg Air Force Base with a guy named photo instrumentation specialist named Bob Jacobs. So that's fascinating. Yeah, very interesting.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So, yeah, it just points back to this idea that I, you know, he, he was genuinely interested in paranormal, you know, research and ufo. I mean, it's not just like all of that was fake.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I just think it got muddled at some point.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And like, you know, maybe there's somebody like typing out, you know, what these space kids are channeling and then it's converted into this ELF frequency and it's transmitting to the space kid's brain or whatever.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, you know, it's weird you say that because on a lot of the tapes there's mention of coupling to the computer data bank is often a term that is thrown around a lot. And this idea that there are some sort of computers involved on which end though?

[Interviewer]

Because are they recording what they're saying?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No, what you just said, somebody's typing something.

[Interviewer]

Whoa.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Because they often say, well, now I'm

[Interviewer]

back in the, in the more cynical camp where it sounds like mind control.

[Greg Mallozzi]

At one point he said that, you know, that referring to the channel being the person. You know, at some point they will become a more reliable source of data. And there's a lot of talk about, about that. And again, like what we have are tapes and tons of them and hundreds of hours. So like you just, all you can do is piece together, well, what did

[Interviewer]

the space kids think? Do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine, you know, non human entities or extraterrestrials? Or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end? Like a lot of them probably know the history that, you know at this point.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, that's a great question. And I think that's really the best way to approach it because they, they, they were involved firsthand. But I think, you know, to answer from what I know is I actually discovered things about, you know, what I'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they did not know. In fact, one of the space kids who I'm close with, like, yeah, she, she was like, you know, shocked. I, I, I, because again, what, what they didn't understand, what I think a lot of, of people didn't understand who were involved in this project is like, information. I was getting information as recent as 6 months ago about things that I didn't know that were really important to the story, like this guy Bob Beck, who was most certainly CIA, who was at Ossining at the time of these exact space kids experiments. One of the space kids, like, I never even knew that you're telling me this for the first time. So it's a mix between, I think, to be quite honest, I think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine. And I think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time. And they don't want to go down the negative path or they don't maybe want to accept that the negative path may be the reality. And I mean, I would probably do that. I mean, so I think some of them want to just try to say, hey, look, we were told we were talking in the nine. We were communicating with the nine. We were, it was a good time. We were young, we were free, you know, et cetera. And a few of them have become more open, like the guy from Mexico City, I told you where. I think some of the things that I told them made them say, wait a second, I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, after all these years, they themselves are going, wait, what is that? And whose name is. And they're starting to put pieces together that they never thought about, and they're starting to maybe think at least, okay, something else was going on. What was it? We don't know for sure, but I think they're willing to accept, like, something else was going on back then.

[Interviewer]

One of the trippiest people that interacted with Puharich, who he probably had plans for. And it almost seems like the subject of some kind of maniacal experiment is Valerie Ransohne. Who is she?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, I wish I knew who she was. She's like the most elusive person I've ever come across. I think she's the most most elusive person in this whole UFO history. So basically what I do know is that she was, she was working in the White House during the Nixon administration. And it had nothing to do with like, intelligent, or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything. It was. It was some sort of program to. I can't remember. It was sort of like a SNAP benefits type program. It was something like this. But that's how she was, you know, involved in government when she was part of a program like that. But apparently she became very interested in the UFO topic. She became very good friends with Gordon Cooper, and she claimed to be a space kid, I guess, like she claimed to be able to channel information. And so she somehow wound up at Puharich's lab, lab nine in 78. And she is very. There's nothing there about her. There's nothing out there about her. There's a couple people I know about who have been trying to track her down for years. They can't. Apparently, she's still alive. But she basically, I believe, was extremely deep in the whole UFO thing and I think knew a lot. We have a tape recording of this guy, Elvis Starr, who was very, very high up. I can't remember his exact role. He was like, maybe head of the army in the 60s, some high up role in the Army. But anyways, he was very, very connected. There's pictures of him with every president during the 60s, 70s. There's a tape of him saying, like, I met Valerie Ranczone in the White House. She believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials. And he kind of makes a joke, like, what do I know? Maybe she was. But that kind of firmly places her in that circle. Cause there's a lot of speculation about what's true and what's not true. But this was a very legitimate guy, basically placing her.

[Interviewer]

What was his role exactly?

[Greg Mallozzi]

He was. So, from what I understand is, yeah, he was like the head of army something or other. And then he went on to become the president of, like, West Virginia University. But he was a part of all these, like, weird science companies and weird energy companies that were happening in the late 70s. Like there's this. This company called Magnetic Energies LLC or something that Valerie had some sort of connection to. And this guy was like consulting for that, or he was connected to a lot of, like, weird stuff, basically. And it was very little on him other than his more official kind of government roles. But he has this because he was writing a memoir. And we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating what he was writing. And he says, yeah, I mean, she was in the White House a Lot. She knew a lot of people, but yeah, basically she just claimed that she could communicate with UFOs. They were giving her advanced information that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists. She predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur, which I don't know.

[Interviewer]

That's so crazy. What? Oh, wow.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So basically she was there. But the kicker is like, she was also really involved in a lot of Tesla technology research, a lot of ELF research. And a lot of people who I know who were. Including the space kids were like, yeah, she was like, she was connected. She was extremely mysterious. We have no idea what was going on with her.

[Interviewer]

So they remember seeing her around. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then. And she was some. Do you know what role she had in the White House?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No. Other than this guy Elvis Starr basically saying, I met her on numerous occasions inside the White House. You can look it up. I can look it up too. I'm sorry, I don't remember. But it was some program that she ran in D.C. as part of the Nixon administration, which again was not involved in an intelligence thing. But that was her in with that world.

[Interviewer]

And she had some NRO involvement too.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. Jacques Fillet is the only one I know who wrote about it, but he claims that he spoke with her back in that late 70s time and she was doing some sort of work for the NRO and experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people. And I'm telling you, man. Yeah, I mean, I've tried to. I mean the other film I'm doing, which is a whole other thing, but she's really involved in that. And that's how I got into her. Cause we have a tape recording of her that was a phone call that was recorded. But yeah, if there's like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the bottom of, it's her. And I don't know if they ever will. Cause I've certainly tried hard to. And apparently she's still alive. She's still alive, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, you gotta go find her, man.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, I think we kind of know where she is and stuff, but it's really just strange. She was very involved with Gordon Cooper and again he had started some company as well that was some Advanced Energy LLC or something. And so from what I understand, she was kind of like going around and even Jacques says this, she was just trying to create this network work of high up government individuals and people to kind of start getting interested in advanced technology, Tesla technology, ELF stuff. But all the while she claimed to be a space kid and able to receive information and channel information.

[Interviewer]

So trippy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. And there's a guy, Kit Green. He, I mean, mean, I don't even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this. Like he, I was talking to him for a while and he was like, yeah, I can't be involved in anything that mentions Buharis is too controversial. And then he told me that he knew Valerie Ranson really well and that he was like, I don't know much about him. Again, I'm not trying to cover because I'm like nervous or anything. I. I genuinely don't really know. I just know I've heard a lot about him being like a person who helps abductee people who claim they're abducted and stuff. So apparently he was doing that even back then with Valerie and he was working with her, which I don't know what that means exactly, but he was very. I mean, there's something out there online that's, you know, very, you know, open where he talks about this, I think. But anyways, he. I was like, hey, I'm trying to do this Valerie thing. Valerie. He was just like, yeah, no, basically like, don't talk me again. And anything revolving. That name I can't be associated with. And every single person I've talked to who knew Valerie or had same reaction. Yeah, I'm literally like, I wouldn't go there. You should just kind of stop now and don't. I've gotten all that stuff. Whoa. So, like what's going on?

[Interviewer]

What do you think? Do you have. Well, so for first of all, a little context for the audience kick question. Green deeply involved. He's a CIA psychiatrist and doctor and I knew that.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But after all that stuff, I don't really know like what his.

[Interviewer]

He's. He's deeply involved in like I think the whatever CIA files around biological interactions from, you know, people interacting with UFOs. That was given to Gary Nolan in the like mid 2010s, I think that was, I think given by Kit Green. And Kit Green analyzed them alongside Gary Nolan. But he's like a long time guy who kind of pops up in UFL lore, kind of akin to Hal put off, but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the, the psychological kind of, you know, you know, neuroscientific dimension of, of this whole thing. So what, what do you, do you speculate as to what Valerie.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, yeah, I have a couple things, but yeah, the Kit Green thing. Yeah, I'M not. I did talk to him. I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I just think he, like, it's just another example of someone who's like, oh, her, Yeah, I can't be involved like you, you're better off, like, not going there kind of thing. So a couple of speculations. Firstly, and this came from someone named Bruce Erickson, who's this kind of like new age researcher guy who I know, who's really cool. But he knew her, he knew Valerie really well. And he painted her in the same light as like she always happened to be there whenever something was going on. She always happened to travel with no issues, no money issues. She's always anywhere she needed to be. But he speculates that she was sort of like a spy and the type that would maybe sleep with somebody for information. And a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to talk about her is, you know, I don't need to say it. Maybe something happened. Now they're married, they don't want to go there. Maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing, which I can get that. But that was his theory because apparently she was really good. I mean, there's one photograph that I know, literally one that exists of her that's not true. There's one online and there's one that I have in the Puharich archives of her at Lab nine. And you know, yeah, she was very good looking. So that was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information on behalf of who? I don't know. But this, you know, you hear about that happening, you know, to that kind of thing. So that was what this guy said who knew her well, that was his theory. But the other theory is that she was again, with the same idea of being an attractive woman, was able to lure in individuals to help with funding for certain projects. And hey, I'm a part of this thing. You should be a part of this thing. Because again, she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that. But the really weird thing is, I don't know if you've seen it, there's allegedly an interview of her on YouTube. So you probably know this YouTube account, eyes on Cinema.

[Interviewer]

Oh yeah.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So anyways, on there, this one day, this was not even that long. It was like a year ago. This video pops up and it says, Valerie Ranso describes her UFO experience. You can go, anyone can go right now and look it up. And I was like, holy, holy, Shit, like, that's her. I've never seen again. There's one picture, and I'm like, oh, my. This is crazy, right? So in the interview, it's really bizarre. She tells us. Really weird. And the thing is, it checks out, out of what we know from her, and most of the information is from the forbidden science books, Jacques Vallee stuff. And she says, I was going to school in Northern Illinois. In this interview, she says she moved to Houston. We know Jacques met her in Houston. The point is, everyone I know who knew Valerie, I said, oh, this is great. A video exists of her now, sent it to them, hey, look, here's Valerie. Like, can you believe this? Every. No, that's not her. Nope, that's definitely not her. I knew her. That's not her. And I said, well, that doesn't make sense, because, like, everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know. Nope, not her. Not one person. And even this.

[Interviewer]

Do you think they were, like, they just, again, didn't want to.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I don't know. But it's just. It's so. It goes back. She's so. She's the biggest enigma in this whole world. Every single one of them. Nope. Oh, man. What. You know, anyone who thinks that's her is an idiot. But everything she says checks out. And in the video, she tells this crazy story about how she had a UFO experience when she was a kid in college, and her friends saw it. And then after that, she continued to have bizarre sightings of UFO sightings happened to her in her life many times. And then some guy. You got to see the video. She says this guy shows up one day to her job, job, and is like, hey, you know, I want to take you. I can't remember exactly what she says, but basically, this very mysterious guy shows up, they go out to lunch, and he's like, you know, I know that you've had these UFO experiences. And he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know, like stuff about her family. I know you had this UFO experience at this time in this location. So she's shocked, right? So then she says, she gets into the car with this guy because he's driving her home or something, and he gets a tape cassette, puts it in the car, and the tape cassette starts. And it's a voice, a metallic voice, basically saying, you know, I am an. I'm an et and I'm here on Earth on, like, a humanitarian mission. And I. We want you to. To work with us. You're going to be the first test human to work with us. And, you know, do you. Do you accept this position? And then the guy parks and she gets out or whatever, and she starts to question, okay, what's going on here? Like, was this real? Was this guy trying to, like, recruit? And that's her story. And then after that is when all this stuff happens of her getting involved with Puhar. This was, like, early 70s. She claims this happens. And all this stuff that we know about is, you know, late 76 and 77. 70. So that's her, like, origin story, but apparently it's not her, according to everyone who knew her. Oh, that's not her. That's not the right woman. That's not even what she looks like. So.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Wow.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But on the tape recording we have, which is a recorded phone conversation, the voice on that, which is most definitely her, sounds. It's her on this video. It sounds the same sounds like that voice.

[Interviewer]

So it's probably her.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's so weird.

[Greg Mallozzi]

So that's a rabbit hole in and of itself. But basically, yeah, she spent, like, a good amount of time at lab not. And she brought Gordon Cooper there. And then she disappeared. And everyone who knew her was like, yeah, I have no idea what happened to her, or they just straight up don't want to talk about her. I don't know. It's really bizarre. She wrote some book that's basically all this, like, channeled information that she got.

[Interviewer]

Have you read it?

[Greg Mallozzi]

No, I've skimmed it, but I think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website, which is now down. But. But it's very, very strange. And when I was trying to get in contact with her, I. Weirdly, this is a crazy story. This guy got in touch with me completely out of the blue. And this has happened a few times throughout the making of this, where someone is like, hey, I heard you have Puharich's archives. I'm really interested in him. And what do you have? And we should talk. And. And that kind of thing. This one guy, weirdly, right around the time I was trying to track down Valerie, he reaches out to me and he's like, same thing. Hey, I know I'm a researcher and I heard your name about Puharich and this and that. And he's like, have you heard of Valerie Rancid? And I said, yeah. He goes, oh, would you want to talk to her? Because I'm actually in contact with her. And. And I'm like, yeah, sure. And so he forwards me an email, which is allegedly from Valerie, which is like, hey, let's talk and this and that. And one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears. Right. Never heard from him again. I look him up on Facebook and again, maybe I'm crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head, but his Facebook looks like like the quintessential I'm making a fake Facebook account, this isn't me kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And that, you know, again, I'm very level head that it really like spooked me out. And then years later, year this was, we're talking probably like 2016, 17. I'm talking like, you know, not that long ago, like 20, 21, 20. He reaches back out to me, me and is like, hey, you know what's going on with the film? And is there any way I can see it? And hey, did you ever talk to Valerie? If you want I can try to get. And I just never responded to the guy again. It was really strange.

[Andrija Puharich (quoted or referenced)]

Wow.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And I tried the email that he had that he claimed was Valerie's. Of course it like, you know, weird but.

[Interviewer]

Well, what happened when you emailed?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, no, nothing.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Greg Mallozzi]

It wasn't, it didn't kick back. But I just never.

[Interviewer]

You never got anything.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I never got anything back. Ever. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But you think you've located her?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And you're going to try to interview. Yeah. That's amazing.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, I hope you do, man. That would be incredible.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. I mean there's a lot to get in with, into with her, but that's, that's the gist of it. And just the fact alone that Kit Green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really strange.

[Interviewer]

So strange.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah. And early 80s. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

This is crazy. Crazy. It's so. It's like there's a woman in the Nixon White House who's claimed she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of, you know, spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic Tesla, you know, extra low frequency technology. It's really wild.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And what I can say for again for a fact is like in the late 70s there really was like so much unknown about this potential of like radio frequency weapons. And it's on YouTube. There's a whole CNN special which came out a little later. I think it was like 83, but it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like, you know, those, those types of weapons and you know, radio towers that can beam a certain frequency, that can agitate people and et cetera. So that Was kind of like the Wild west in the late 70s there of like, I think people trying to figure out what this is, what can be done with it. And he was just like in, in the middle of that and, you know, there was a lot of people running around researching that at the time. And I think there was also a lot of research happening of, you know, what's the potential of this stuff, what's possible with it? So. And Valerie was again, interested in the that and was involved in that, so it's so wild.

[Interviewer]

What are the implications for all of this? On modern UFO disclosure, which seems to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors, secret, you know, nuts and bolts, weapons technology, faster than light travel, that sort of thing. What are the implications of the stuff you're looking into for that?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I think, honestly, I think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier. I think there's some truth peppered into a lot of false going on, and I think that still happens. I think that's still going on. So I think the implications are it's just still difficult to navigate, navigate what's real and what is not real, you know, And I think it takes people like you and others who are like, really seriously interested in looking into this stuff and talking to people to kind of like keep going with it, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, well, this is a, I mean, if they're, you know, it's a big puzzle that we're putting together. This is a huge piece that I think is missing for a lot of people, you know, prior to your movie. So I really, really hope people go check it out. I think it's going to be, you know, make, make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of this whole topic. And I loved it. I thought it was really well made. How can people go find it?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Well, it's going to be for purchase on, you know, iTunes and YouTube and that kind of thing. Yeah, we're going to do kind of like this release now with Age of Disclosure.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Greg Mallozzi]

We're going to do like a, you know, you can purchase it for a certain amount.

[Interviewer]

A little bundle situation.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay, cool.

[Greg Mallozzi]

But there's some interest in, in some

[Interviewer]

streaming stuff, so any, anything big that I didn't touch on that I should

[Greg Mallozzi]

have had, honestly, like, yeah, probably.

[Interviewer]

But I mean, you're, you got your gift that keeps on giving, man. It's crazy.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, oh. The one thing I was going to mention is this is again, an example of something very recently like Bobby Ray Inman, who I know a lot of people are talking about right now. I called him because, because he was head of Naval Intelligence. I think during this exact time that Puhar is doing a lot of space kid stuff, like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of elf stuff. And I just, just called him straight up and I introduced myself.

[Interviewer]

How'd you get his number?

[Greg Mallozzi]

I found his number online.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, I kid you not. It was one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers and I'm like, none of these are ever going to work. And I was like, hello? And it was him. It was one of them.

[Interviewer]

Oh my God.

[Greg Mallozzi]

And he was pretty nice, but I just straight up was like, hey, have you ever heard, you know the name Andrea Buharich? Do you know Bob Beck? Because those are the two working at that time with the space kids. And he was like, no, never heard the name. And he was really nice. And he was just like, if you come across anything more concrete, you can call me back. But I just figured, huh, maybe he knows something. Because we know Naval intelligence at one point was like a big funder of Buharis, not only back in the 50s, but going into the early 80s as well. But anyways, he didn't.

[Interviewer]

That's what Harold Malmgren always said. He said, said the deepest kind of core was the oni, Office of Naval Intelligence. They really knew the most about this stuff.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, Puharich was in with them very early on and he continued. In fact, there was a scientist working with Puharich at this time, Elizabeth Rauscher. She passed away, but they got this huge grant from the oni, and I was like, you know, looking everywhere to try to find Doug. She has a huge archive at Berkeley of all of her research and I had someone go there and look and we couldn't find anything. But, but you know, they, they were working with a lot of people then, but yeah, Inman didn't come up with anything, so.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, well, he might have reasons to withhold information as well. He was the, I think Deputy Director of the CIA and the director of the NSA at the same time, I believe.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, something like. Like that. Oh, the other thing. Yeah, the last thing I'll say is not unlike Valerie, one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her, but she's on a lot of these tapes was this woman named Sharon. So you know, Sharon with two Rs and like Valerie, you know, huge question mark. Everyone who knew her the then was like, she was this very legitimate real Psychic Puharich apparently would bring her around, show her off to people in government and academics and just say, like, look what she can do. She can channel all this advanced information. He was always working with her. There's pictures of her, and she just disappeared. And everyone who knew her back then was like, you know, it would be amazing if you found her, because she. They're convinced that she was pulled into a Stranger Things, Montauk project type project where she was the real deal. And she was sort of pulled into a project like that. That's why she's just kind of wiped off the face of the Earth. There's nothing about her anywhere. Again, I went to the great lengths to try to locate her. Nothing. People don't want to like Valerie. They don't want to talk about her when you bring her up. So that was another example of like, okay, maybe there's some reality here, but because it's just so bizarre and like, multiple space kids were like, yeah, I knew her well and I. I wish we could find her. Like, she was a friend of mine and she disappeared just like she was a.

[Interviewer]

The whole program was a feeder, maybe into something deeper.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there. But people think that his. Yeah, Buhari's lab was. Was that. So do you.

[Interviewer]

Does this add to your conviction? You know, I think even the makers of Stranger Things say that it's based off of the Montauk experiments. And I think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in Montauk, Long Island. Does this add to your conviction that, I don't know, you hear all these things around gifted and talented education. Kids who have psi abilities being taken into secret national labs, facilities often associated with the Atomic Energy Commission or federally funded research and development centers like Battelle Memorial Institute and other others, and they're told to. How do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or pick a card or things like that? Does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way?

[Greg Mallozzi]

Oh, yeah. Puharich himself, again, if you choose to believe what he says, he openly says, I helped lots of locate these kids. He talks about it. I mean, he says, like, I was the person who would say, you know, yeah, this, you know, this one checks out. And they would move on to wherever they would move on to. He talks about helping other countries with this. The UK he said he traveled to the UK and helped them locate children with s. Abilities. So it's all that. It's all that gray area area, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And you, you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue. Like, you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And part of me is thinks it's a beautiful, amazing thing. And obviously, in my opinion, I think, I don't think it's all a psyop. I think that some of these autistic nonverbal children are actually. They do have really amazing, amazing abilities. It's unfortunate that some of them, like this woman that went on Danny Jones, I think, are actually faking things. The mother of one of the kids. And she clearly was peeking past this blindfold, which is just so sad. And what a poor representation of again, what I think is an underlying real phenomena. But does it make you ask questions around. Why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue? It feels like if you were to take an index of aliens, psy and psychedelics and you were to say it's synthetic derivatives, like an ETF or something, if you were to invest in this in the late 60s, early 70s, you'd lose a lot of money into today. But now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something, it just feels like they're all taking off. Like, it feels like the trend is like. And are you cynical about that? Is there, is there, I mean, maybe even to take that ETF analogy further, are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things? Because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because I do think it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality. And then there's another part of me where I'm like, it's gotta be coming out now cause of some military industrial complex reason or something.

[Greg Mallozzi]

I don't know. I mean, I think, I certainly think this film is going to help, you know, put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff. And I think the fact that it's coming out now is interesting because of all this, you know, this resurgence of interest in it. But I know what you mean. I don't know. Like, I talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the GATE program. And I won't say his name, but now he's very vocal online about his involvement in that and what he did. And he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about. But I don't know what to believe with that. So it's just, I don't know, I'm in the same boat as you. I don't know what the motives may be, but I think that Puharich was certain, certainly extremely important in this whole world. And the fact that there's never really been something like on him that's out there is exciting for me, obviously. So, yeah, I think it'll. I think it'll raise some eyebrows.

[Interviewer]

I think so too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers. But you know, you know, you're on the right path if you do that. But yeah. Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. One of my honestly, like, I love information dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other. You know, I love the stories. You know, I love I saw a thing and I was in the bed and I wasn't. You know, they put a chip in me. Like that's. It's fascinating but it's always hard to sense make after that. Like how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what's actually happening? I love this interview because you just to me again, you know, you added this big puzzle piece that seems to be missing as far as this whole story. And obviously it begins gets, you know, a hundred more questions. But I really hope everybody checks out the movie. And thank you for being here.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

[Interviewer]

Awesome.

[Greg Mallozzi]

Yeah.

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[Interviewer]

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