Podcast Summary: "The Hidden UFO Program Is Real – Here’s How It Works!"

Podcast: American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Host: Jesse Michels
Guest: Sammy (UAPGerb)
Date: January 11, 2026

Episode Overview

In this in-depth conversation, Jesse Michels hosts "UAPGerb" (Sammy), one of today’s most detail-oriented and fearless UFO researchers. The episode dives deeply into the hidden architecture of the U.S. government's secret UFO legacy programs: tracing the historical roots, organizational structure, funding streams, key individuals, and the mechanics behind crash retrievals and reverse engineering of non-human technologies. The conversation also explores whistleblower accounts, prominent cases, and the psyops and disinformation efforts muddying the waters of disclosure.

The tone is intensely inquisitive and analytical, with both host and guest agitating for hyper-specificity, naming names, acronyms, and detailed program histories—eschewing the vague speculation that plagues much of the dialogue around UAPs.

Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Legacy UFO Program Structure and Oversight

• Pyramid Model of Control:

  • Top-level “String Pullers”: Likely high-level figures, with Dick Cheney cited as the last “central” leader (06:43).
  • “Legacy Administrators”: Big Six intelligence agencies – CIA, NSA, DIA, NRO, NGA, and the lesser-known National Underwater Reconnaissance Office (NURO) (06:53).
  • Directorates within Agencies: For example, CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology acts as a program admin.
  • DoD Counterparts: Units like the Edwards 412 Test Wing, Army Test and Evaluation, Navy Intelligence/Research (06:53).
  • FFRDCs (Federally Funded Research & Development Centers): Serve as a buffer between agencies and contractors, allowing knowledge to be compartmentalized and government control retained (07:27).
  • Prime Contractors: Lockheed, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, etc. — "at the bottom" of the pyramid (09:13).
  • Infrastructure & Funding: Programs hidden in facilities like Area 51, Nevada and Utah Test Sites, using mechanisms like IRAD funds, carryover budgets, and deliberate overcharging for parts to generate black budget slush funds (11:53).
  • Program Protection & Counter-Intelligence: SAPs/USAPs, DARPA's SID, DOE’s OICI, and various carve-out and controlled access programs provide additional secrecy (12:41).

• Quote:
  "It's probably more complicated than any of us can guess...90 years of these programs spun up out of the Manhattan Project, the Atomic Energy Commission, and probably initially the Executive Branch and National Security Council." — Sammy (05:46)

2. Key Individuals and Organizational Fluidity

• Frequent "revolving door" between agencies (NRO, CIA DS&T), FFRDCs like MITRE, and intelligence community oversight positions.

• Notable figures called out in gatekeeper roles:

  • Bobby Ray Inman
  • Doug Wolfe (started OGA, Office of Global Access)
  • Glenn Gaffney (CIA)
  • Paul Kaminsky (DoD, MITRE)
  • Mary K. Sturtevant (CIA, Senate Intel, Lockheed)

• CIA's Office of Global Access (OGA), created in 2003, described as the “combat logistical agency” for foreign crash retrievals, working with DoE teams and military assets (38:45).

• MITRE Corporation: Described as "the most overlooked entity" with disproportionate influence in tech security, program management, and possibly USO (undersea object) monitoring (40:14).

• Quote:
  "The importance of MITRE. MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject." — Sammy (40:30)

3. Crash Retrievals: Mechanics, Witnesses & Testimonies

• Operations and Logistics:
  • Retrievals involve DOE's NEST, Special Response Teams, contractors, and rapid deployment military assets, particularly Army Delta/JSOC (79:44, 65:00).
  • DOE's authority via the 1954 Atomic Energy Act gives them unique cover for secrecy and rapid international deployment.
• Whistleblower Testimonies:
  • Jonathan Weygant (USMC): 1997 Peru retrieval, describes being intercepted by black-clad operators, craft with biologics and mind-to-mind communication; was detained, threatened, and injected with an "anthrax booster" (76:35 – 81:14).
    • Quote:
      "He feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help ..." — Sammy (00:00)
  • Similar post-incident “anthrax boosters” given to at least two others (70:25).
  • Repeated Pattern: Operators in black, held at gunpoint, rapidly deployed military assets, presence of DOE NEST teams, followed by trauma and forced medicalization (65:00 – 70:39).
  • Described Technology: Reports of ARVs/derivative vehicles, electro-optic cloaking, “soupy” or charged air near craft, and “skin of craft” consisting of nested layers (17:53, 90:23).

4. Secrecy, Psyops, and Program Protection

• Extreme compartmentalization with special clearances (Q clearance, derived from Atomic Energy controls).
• Use of SAPs, CAPS, and “bigot lists” to strictly limit access to information.
• Psychological operations and information warfare (e.g., disinformation via the “Majestic 12” docs, denial and career threats to insiders).
• SARBACHER, Steinman, and the dynamics of valid vs. forged Majestic 12 docs: Use them only as contextual/auxiliary sources, never as primary evidence (25:37).
• “Controlled Disclosure” efforts via organizations like TTSA (To The Stars Academy), described as programmatic, limited hangouts with emphasis on NHI “threat” narrative rather than substantive technology transfer (49:10).

5. Case Studies & Best-Evidence Incidents

• Signature Retrievals Discussed:
  • Aztec (1948), Magenta (1933, Italy), Kingman (1953), Kecksburg, Koyame, Brookhaven, and others (120:16 – 124:10).
  • Analysis of the high-confidence evidence and why certain cases (e.g., Aztec) may have been discredited deliberately.
• Biologics:
  • Egg-shaped craft, with biologics recovered in several documented incidents; bodies reportedly held at sites like Dugway, Y-12 at Oak Ridge, Fort Detrick, and various Battelle FFRDCs (155:33 – 156:09).

6. Culture, Critique, and Future of UFO Disclosure

• Discussion of major personalities (e.g., Tom DeLonge: mix of sincerely motivated and used for limited hangout ops; Eric Davis: valuable but “strings attached” disclosures; Elon Musk and the private sector).
• Problems with both “pro-UFO” and debunking factions: grifters, psyops operatives, and chronic online naysayers.
• Admiration for certain whistleblowers (David Grusch, Harold Malmgren, Dan Sherman) and skepticism about others (Charles Hall, possibly Dan Burisch).
• Long-term hope: Realigning legacy programs under congressional control, reparations for affected insiders, and eventual broad-based disclosure (206:07).
• Realistic estimate: Fewer than 200 people "know it all," with 5,000–10,000 exposed at lower tiers of compartmentalization (207:47).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• "Controlled disclosure. That's why, like, if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David Grusch." — Sammy (141:27)
• "My initial wish isn't to get people public... but to collect their testimony and get it to the right people." — Sammy, on his approach to whistleblowers (183:08)
• "MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject." — Sammy (40:30)
• "If you look at the Immaculate Constellation documents numerous sightings, talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly has had foreknowledge of the event..." — Sammy (53:40)
• "It seems like their entire, as David Grusch says, asymmetrical warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance. They're not out there philosophizing as to, like, the larger truths of these beings." — Sammy (139:41)

Timeline: Key Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:00 — Weygant’s Peru encounter, egg craft, “anthrax booster” phenomena
• 05:10 – 13:49 — Org-chart deep dive: the pyramid model, legacy admins, FFRDCs, contractors
• 15:17 – 19:53 — ARVs, derivative tech, electro-optic cloaking (triangle sightings, witness testimony)
• 25:29 – 27:31 — Majestic 12 & Interplanetary Phenomena Unit docs history/use
• 30:53 – 36:19 — Key administrators and gatekeepers, NRO/CIA-DS&T-MITRE network
• 38:40 – 41:43 — CIA Office of Global Access, MITRE’s oversight, Ning Li & anti-gravity research
• 53:19 – 54:22 — Tom DeLonge’s exposure to classified satellite programs, Immaculate Constellation
• 65:00 – 71:03 — Anatomy of a crash retrieval: black teams, NEST, “anthrax boosters,” mind-to-mind contact
• 76:35 – 81:14 — Weygant testimony and crash site, transmission of tech to contractors, DOE/NEST deployment
• 108:03 – 109:41 — Asset distribution, possible collocation with paranormal “hot spots,” nuclear/UFO link
• 120:07 – 126:27 — Best crash cases and supporting witnesses (Aztec, Magenta, Kecksburg, Kingman, etc.)
• 130:58 – 135:32 — Facilities likely to house craft/biologics (NTTR, Dugway, Oak Ridge, Crystal City), Crystal City as legacy program HQ
• 172:01 – 175:21 — Timeline management, "Looking Glass," connections to remote viewing and psychic phenomena
• 183:08 – 185:07 — Sammy’s mission, whistleblower call-to-action, vision for managed disclosure

Closing Thoughts & Aspirations

Both Jesse and UAPGerb articulate optimism—despite bureaucratic and cultural inertia—about ongoing efforts to bring classified UFO legacy programs under real oversight. They call for more concrete, specific, and dispassionate investigation, while appealing to future whistleblowers to come forward.

Quote:
"This is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as, like, you know, I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine ... And, and, I understand the tip of the iceberg." — Sammy (213:16)

For Whistleblowers

Contact:
Sammy (UAPGerb) – uapgerb@protonmail.com

"I will fly to you in person if your story is credible enough…take your testimony, record it and try to get it to the proper folks." — Sammy (226:12)

Final Words

This episode stands as one of the most information-dense, deeply-researched breakdowns of the hidden, decades-long infrastructure behind U.S. UFO reverse engineering programs. By marrying whistleblower testimony, public records, first-name basis knowledge of key actors, and contemporary and historical context, Jesse and UAPGerb provide a roadmap for serious researchers and the public alike.

Recommended for anyone seeking to understand not just the “what” but the “how” and “who” behind secretive UAP programs.