The Hidden UFO Program Is Real - Here’s How It Works! (ft. UAPGerb)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Hidden UFO Program Is Real – Here’s How It Works!"

Podcast: American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Host: Jesse Michels
Guest: Sammy (UAPGerb)
Date: January 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this in-depth conversation, Jesse Michels hosts "UAPGerb" (Sammy), one of today’s most detail-oriented and fearless UFO researchers. The episode dives deeply into the hidden architecture of the U.S. government's secret UFO legacy programs: tracing the historical roots, organizational structure, funding streams, key individuals, and the mechanics behind crash retrievals and reverse engineering of non-human technologies. The conversation also explores whistleblower accounts, prominent cases, and the psyops and disinformation efforts muddying the waters of disclosure.

The tone is intensely inquisitive and analytical, with both host and guest agitating for hyper-specificity, naming names, acronyms, and detailed program histories—eschewing the vague speculation that plagues much of the dialogue around UAPs.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Legacy UFO Program Structure and Oversight

• Pyramid Model of Control:

  • Top-level “String Pullers”: Likely high-level figures, with Dick Cheney cited as the last “central” leader (06:43).
  • “Legacy Administrators”: Big Six intelligence agencies – CIA, NSA, DIA, NRO, NGA, and the lesser-known National Underwater Reconnaissance Office (NURO) (06:53).
  • Directorates within Agencies: For example, CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology acts as a program admin.
  • DoD Counterparts: Units like the Edwards 412 Test Wing, Army Test and Evaluation, Navy Intelligence/Research (06:53).
  • FFRDCs (Federally Funded Research & Development Centers): Serve as a buffer between agencies and contractors, allowing knowledge to be compartmentalized and government control retained (07:27).
  • Prime Contractors: Lockheed, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, etc. — "at the bottom" of the pyramid (09:13).
  • Infrastructure & Funding: Programs hidden in facilities like Area 51, Nevada and Utah Test Sites, using mechanisms like IRAD funds, carryover budgets, and deliberate overcharging for parts to generate black budget slush funds (11:53).
  • Program Protection & Counter-Intelligence: SAPs/USAPs, DARPA's SID, DOE’s OICI, and various carve-out and controlled access programs provide additional secrecy (12:41).

• Quote:
  "It's probably more complicated than any of us can guess...90 years of these programs spun up out of the Manhattan Project, the Atomic Energy Commission, and probably initially the Executive Branch and National Security Council." — Sammy (05:46)

2. Key Individuals and Organizational Fluidity

• Frequent "revolving door" between agencies (NRO, CIA DS&T), FFRDCs like MITRE, and intelligence community oversight positions.

• Notable figures called out in gatekeeper roles:

  • Bobby Ray Inman
  • Doug Wolfe (started OGA, Office of Global Access)
  • Glenn Gaffney (CIA)
  • Paul Kaminsky (DoD, MITRE)
  • Mary K. Sturtevant (CIA, Senate Intel, Lockheed)

• CIA's Office of Global Access (OGA), created in 2003, described as the “combat logistical agency” for foreign crash retrievals, working with DoE teams and military assets (38:45).

• MITRE Corporation: Described as "the most overlooked entity" with disproportionate influence in tech security, program management, and possibly USO (undersea object) monitoring (40:14).

• Quote:
  "The importance of MITRE. MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject." — Sammy (40:30)

3. Crash Retrievals: Mechanics, Witnesses & Testimonies

• Operations and Logistics:
  • Retrievals involve DOE's NEST, Special Response Teams, contractors, and rapid deployment military assets, particularly Army Delta/JSOC (79:44, 65:00).
  • DOE's authority via the 1954 Atomic Energy Act gives them unique cover for secrecy and rapid international deployment.
• Whistleblower Testimonies:
  • Jonathan Weygant (USMC): 1997 Peru retrieval, describes being intercepted by black-clad operators, craft with biologics and mind-to-mind communication; was detained, threatened, and injected with an "anthrax booster" (76:35 – 81:14).
    • Quote:
      "He feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help ..." — Sammy (00:00)
  • Similar post-incident “anthrax boosters” given to at least two others (70:25).
  • Repeated Pattern: Operators in black, held at gunpoint, rapidly deployed military assets, presence of DOE NEST teams, followed by trauma and forced medicalization (65:00 – 70:39).
  • Described Technology: Reports of ARVs/derivative vehicles, electro-optic cloaking, “soupy” or charged air near craft, and “skin of craft” consisting of nested layers (17:53, 90:23).

4. Secrecy, Psyops, and Program Protection

• Extreme compartmentalization with special clearances (Q clearance, derived from Atomic Energy controls).
• Use of SAPs, CAPS, and “bigot lists” to strictly limit access to information.
• Psychological operations and information warfare (e.g., disinformation via the “Majestic 12” docs, denial and career threats to insiders).
• SARBACHER, Steinman, and the dynamics of valid vs. forged Majestic 12 docs: Use them only as contextual/auxiliary sources, never as primary evidence (25:37).
• “Controlled Disclosure” efforts via organizations like TTSA (To The Stars Academy), described as programmatic, limited hangouts with emphasis on NHI “threat” narrative rather than substantive technology transfer (49:10).

5. Case Studies & Best-Evidence Incidents

• Signature Retrievals Discussed:
  • Aztec (1948), Magenta (1933, Italy), Kingman (1953), Kecksburg, Koyame, Brookhaven, and others (120:16 – 124:10).
  • Analysis of the high-confidence evidence and why certain cases (e.g., Aztec) may have been discredited deliberately.
• Biologics:
  • Egg-shaped craft, with biologics recovered in several documented incidents; bodies reportedly held at sites like Dugway, Y-12 at Oak Ridge, Fort Detrick, and various Battelle FFRDCs (155:33 – 156:09).

6. Culture, Critique, and Future of UFO Disclosure

• Discussion of major personalities (e.g., Tom DeLonge: mix of sincerely motivated and used for limited hangout ops; Eric Davis: valuable but “strings attached” disclosures; Elon Musk and the private sector).
• Problems with both “pro-UFO” and debunking factions: grifters, psyops operatives, and chronic online naysayers.
• Admiration for certain whistleblowers (David Grusch, Harold Malmgren, Dan Sherman) and skepticism about others (Charles Hall, possibly Dan Burisch).
• Long-term hope: Realigning legacy programs under congressional control, reparations for affected insiders, and eventual broad-based disclosure (206:07).
• Realistic estimate: Fewer than 200 people "know it all," with 5,000–10,000 exposed at lower tiers of compartmentalization (207:47).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• "Controlled disclosure. That's why, like, if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David Grusch." — Sammy (141:27)
• "My initial wish isn't to get people public... but to collect their testimony and get it to the right people." — Sammy, on his approach to whistleblowers (183:08)
• "MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject." — Sammy (40:30)
• "If you look at the Immaculate Constellation documents numerous sightings, talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly has had foreknowledge of the event..." — Sammy (53:40)
• "It seems like their entire, as David Grusch says, asymmetrical warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance. They're not out there philosophizing as to, like, the larger truths of these beings." — Sammy (139:41)

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Timeline: Key Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:00 — Weygant’s Peru encounter, egg craft, “anthrax booster” phenomena
• 05:10 – 13:49 — Org-chart deep dive: the pyramid model, legacy admins, FFRDCs, contractors
• 15:17 – 19:53 — ARVs, derivative tech, electro-optic cloaking (triangle sightings, witness testimony)
• 25:29 – 27:31 — Majestic 12 & Interplanetary Phenomena Unit docs history/use
• 30:53 – 36:19 — Key administrators and gatekeepers, NRO/CIA-DS&T-MITRE network
• 38:40 – 41:43 — CIA Office of Global Access, MITRE’s oversight, Ning Li & anti-gravity research
• 53:19 – 54:22 — Tom DeLonge’s exposure to classified satellite programs, Immaculate Constellation
• 65:00 – 71:03 — Anatomy of a crash retrieval: black teams, NEST, “anthrax boosters,” mind-to-mind contact
• 76:35 – 81:14 — Weygant testimony and crash site, transmission of tech to contractors, DOE/NEST deployment
• 108:03 – 109:41 — Asset distribution, possible collocation with paranormal “hot spots,” nuclear/UFO link
• 120:07 – 126:27 — Best crash cases and supporting witnesses (Aztec, Magenta, Kecksburg, Kingman, etc.)
• 130:58 – 135:32 — Facilities likely to house craft/biologics (NTTR, Dugway, Oak Ridge, Crystal City), Crystal City as legacy program HQ
• 172:01 – 175:21 — Timeline management, "Looking Glass," connections to remote viewing and psychic phenomena
• 183:08 – 185:07 — Sammy’s mission, whistleblower call-to-action, vision for managed disclosure

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Closing Thoughts & Aspirations

Both Jesse and UAPGerb articulate optimism—despite bureaucratic and cultural inertia—about ongoing efforts to bring classified UFO legacy programs under real oversight. They call for more concrete, specific, and dispassionate investigation, while appealing to future whistleblowers to come forward.

Quote:
"This is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as, like, you know, I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine ... And, and, I understand the tip of the iceberg." — Sammy (213:16)

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For Whistleblowers

Contact:
Sammy (UAPGerb) – [e-mail]

"I will fly to you in person if your story is credible enough…take your testimony, record it and try to get it to the proper folks." — Sammy (226:12)

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Final Words

This episode stands as one of the most information-dense, deeply-researched breakdowns of the hidden, decades-long infrastructure behind U.S. UFO reverse engineering programs. By marrying whistleblower testimony, public records, first-name basis knowledge of key actors, and contemporary and historical context, Jesse and UAPGerb provide a roadmap for serious researchers and the public alike.

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Recommended for anyone seeking to understand not just the “what” but the “how” and “who” behind secretive UAP programs.

Transcript

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Jonathan Weygant. He is told at one point that there's a downed friendlier or foreign plane. No big deal. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing. There's an enormous egg shaped, teardrop shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. And there seemed to be a hatch open with an arm hanging out with four fingers. It was dripping surplike this liquid. It was everywhere. It was weird, it was purplish green color. He feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help. They were not going to harm me. That was basically that everything was going.

[Jesse]

To be all right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just help me get. Just help us get out of here. There's one common thread I found and each of these three people had the same thing happen, that they kind of answered independently. They're immediately intercepted by between eight and 12 operators in all black, no insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. All three of these men, directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters.

[Jesse]

Anthrax boosters?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

What's so weird? You are one of the few people who puts names, dates, programs, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

You're famous for your acronyms CONUS and oconus. Outside conus. Continental United States Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance Platforms. Isr, OICI and yes. Ffrdc. Federally Funded Research and Development Centers.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Correct.

[Jesse]

You have somebody like Dick Cheney maybe at the time top. Yeah, yeah. And then you have these six different kind of high up intelligence organizations, DoD stuff and DoD stuff.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay, so you have DoD plus intelligence organizations. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Do you know the first director of OGA, the Office of Global Access.

[Jesse]

Is that Doug Wolf?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

This is Doug Wolfe. Do you know Doug Wolfe? Spent 16 years in the NRO. He was the executive assistant to the Director of the National Reconnaissance Office.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He was indeed CIA, DS&T Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And indeed he was the DDNI ATNF. The Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions.

[Jesse]

Crazy. So obviously Bob Lazar, you know, was briefed on Project Looking Glass.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor. He kind of thinks of himself as like a Adjustment bureau, timeline management person.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

This sphere was basically used to I guess like coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at time as. As frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines.

[Jesse]

I'm here with Sammy, UAP Gerb, who in my estimation is the most hardcore UFO researcher today. And I think in a world where kind of a lot of people like to talk in these sort of really vague generalities, it's always everything is everything. A lot of mush brained thinking where A is true and B is true, but somehow A and B are mutually exclusive. Nothing really makes sense, you know, except everything kind of wholeheartedly. You are one of the few people who tries to put names, dates, programs, you know, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms and you have a real map that you're kind of basically like illustrating through every single episode of what is actually happening in the concrete UFO reverse engineering program. So I'm excited to get into all of that with you today.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, thanks for having me on, Jesse. This is the kind of second big program we've done. And a while ago, I think it was the beginning of the year, I had a super small channel you had me on, really brought some exposure to kind of my platform. So I'm super grateful to that. I appreciate you kind of taking a chance and having me on then. We had a great conversation then. We'll have an even better conversation today because people who've watched my channel know that what I like to do is legacy programs. You know, Chris Ramsey is interested in the experiencer, you're interested in more physics, physics based science. I like legacy programs, I like acronyms, I like really boring program funding such. So I kind of focus on UFO legacy programs. Crash retrieval basically in a sense, programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technologies of non human origin. The approach I like to take is really trying to iron out specifics and be as specific as possible. I've been super interested in the subject since I was a little kid. But you know, we talked about this yesterday. It seemed to me and it just like a lot of people approach this topic like there was always the amorphous they of running UFO reverse engineering programs. The big US government, the big they. And it wasn't until David Grush spoke in 2023 that something clicked in my head and I thought I can really start attributing names to these programs. People have worked in the programs where these programs might take place, exact mechanisms, how these programs might be funded, exact contractors, exact institutions that might be working on them. So I love hyper specifics and if we want to talk hyper specifics today, we can do just that.

[Jesse]

Let's do it. Because I think a lot of people are probably extremely confused at the org Chart. Yeah, you know, of the actual UFO legacy program. I think the debrief published something I want to say at the end of last year around the White House having to do with some of these programs. You hear that the White House sometimes has to do with some of the programs and then simultaneously you hear that the President doesn't have a need to know and doesn't know anything about the program. So you hear these things all the time that are so hand wavy about how this stuff works. And I think you're the only person who's actually mapping it out. What is the org structure of the UFO legacy program?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So I'm trying to map it out. I think at the end of the day this is probably more complicated than any of us can guess because there's 90, 80, 90 years at least of these programs being spun up out of the Manhattan Project, out of the Atomic Energy Commission, out of probably initially the Executive Branch and the National Security Council. But the way I really like to look at UFO legacy programs, programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technical vehicles of unknown origin is simplistic terms like a pyramid. The head of the pyramid is the puller of the strings. That's probably a name we don't know. Or it's probably somebody like the late Dick Cheney. I think that that's probably highly accurate that. What did Walter Kern say that Dave Grush told him that Dick Cheney was the head of the UFO pyramid for quite a while. That's highly likely, probably true.

[Jesse]

The closest person we got that I.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Was aware of was unfortunately now deceased.

[Jesse]

Vice President Dick Cheney.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Darth Vader himself.

[Jesse]

Not shocking that he was involved in this. And essentially when he left in 2009, that was the last time that these activities really had central leadership.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Below that there seems to be UFO legacy program administrators. These administrators are likely seem to stem from the big six intelligence agencies, not big five. The National Security Agency, nsa, dia, CIA, NRO and nga. There's not five, there's six. There's the Neuro, the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, which was established in 1969 and still has not been disclosed to this day. So directorates within those intelligence agencies. For example, the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology seems to be a legacy program administrator. And then conversely on the same side, other side of that coin, DOD agencies. You know, this could be the Edwards 412 test wing. This could be Army Test and Evaluation Command. This could be the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Office of Naval Research. And so those seem to be the UFO legacy program administrators. Now in Most of discussion about legacy programs and this is kind of perpetuated in most mainstream discussion of the topic. It's okay, the United States government, DoD and intelligence community and then contractors, you know, the Lockheed Martin, the Northrop Grummans, the Battelle Memorial Institutes. I think that's incorrect and I think that's very incorrect. I think there's an intermediary step between that and this is below the legacy program admins and above the defense industrial based contractors, the prime contractors. And that is people, people who watch my channel will probably laugh at me saying this because I talk about it non stop at ffrdc Federally Funded Research and Development Centers. These are government owned contractor operated institutions that are subject matter experts for all sorts of of programs that the United States government, DoD and IC can't handle themselves. So FFRDC's examples here would be the Mitre Corporation, numerous institutions run by Battelle Memorial Institute, Sandia Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge Department of Energy, National Nuclear Security Administration, National Labs. The reason why FFRDCs I think are higher on the totem pole of so to speak than, than contractors is because FFRDCs are inherently government owned contractor operated. So these institutions can serve as subject matter experts for exotic technology programs. But elements of the Department of Defense or intelligence community can still maintain access control over materials, information, personnel, etceter. So the FFRDC can serve as an R and D expert and subject matter expert and be a program admin for the defense industrial based contractors. So that's how the USG United States government and its elements of legacy programs can still retain control over these programs. You know, people talk about oh, the programs have run away in Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman. I don't think that's correct. People will say that these programs have no oversight. No, I think there's a very structured oversight to these programs. It's just not traditional oversight channels. And then at the bottom of this Pyram pyramid is the defense industrial based prime contractors, the Lockheed Martins, the Northrop Grummans and what Northrop, adep, bdm, trw, Teledyne, Ryan Raytheon, Raytheon, especially with the US army and so forth. The mortar that holds this pyramid together would be the Defense industrial base and funding mechanisms. This would be stuff like major range and test facility bases or MRTFBs which are basically large DoD ranges across the continental United States. I believe they're. There are 26 such agencies. They are spread across the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force and Defense Defense Agency. Examples here include the Nevada Test and training range, you know, that houses area 51, that houses allegedly S4, that houses the Tonopah test range, all sorts of weird little Sandia run sites, the numbered areas, this includes the Utah Test and Training Range, the West Desert Test Center, Both of those are situated on Dugway proving grounds. Edwards 412 test wing out of Edwards Air Force Base, China Lake, Patuxent river and so forth. And funding mechanisms. I think the best way to look at this is what David Grush has spoken about. And this would essentially be misappropriation of funds, right? IRAD Independent Research and Development, which is a very creative system that defense industrial based contractors can take upon projects that they consider to be in the interest of national security and build the DoD for it. This includes carryover funds which basically budget left over at the end of a fiscal year that's not reported, that's then utilized by the agency. And we can talk about this more. But in 1994, 1995, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which runs America's spy satellites, IMMENT and SIGINT primarily that David Grush worked for as well as the nga, got in busted in huge trouble. They underwent a Senate and GAO audit for enormous misappropriation funds, specifically carryover funds back in 1994, 1995 in the realm of $.2 billion or so. And remember the NRO was only declassified in 1992. This could also be overcharging of parts. There's a really interesting example of this back in the 80s and 90s of the Navy. It'd be things like, it'd be things like ashtrays on, on military planes that were overcharged by thousands of dollars. Profit margins of like 60 to 80% on, on submarines, socket wrenches for, for fighter jets priced like 15,000% over what they should be worth and so forth. And then finally, you know, if we're, if we're thinking about this pyramid as like the old Egyptian pyramids, the, the pyramids were once encased in limestone, right? To protect the pyramids from the elements and so forth. Well that limestone casing for this UFO legacy program pyramid, this would be program Protection Strategies. This would be the DARPA Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Security and Intelligence Directorate SID which is responsible for program protection for some of the United States most classified special access programs. DARPA said this is the boogeyman. This would also be Department of Energy Intelligence, Department of Energy, Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, oici. And yes, the DOE has its own intelligence agency. This would be black budget program Structure like saps, Special Access Programs, usaps Unacknowledged Special Access Programs or in the intelligence community CAPS Controlled Access Program. Carve out contracts with defense industrial prime contractors. Further examples of program protection strategy would be complex psyops disinformation, disinformation campaigns, National Security Council programs, Sean Kirkpatrick, Arrow Rick Doty, stuff like that. So, and like I said, I think that took like 10 minutes. But in a super broad term that is how I view the structure of legacy programs. A very complex pyramid. And again it's probably far more complex than, than we can even begin to, to understand. But that is how I look and start to break down the structure of the programs.

[Jesse]

Well, I think a lot of people are probably thinking with complexity you get, you end leaks and you end up with like coordination issues. And I think that speaks to, and then, you know, my response to that with, with a lot of people is like, well, there have been a ton of leaks. You have people like Stephen Greer and in some ways to me you're like the cooler heir to Stephen Greer where you're like a, a better place I think for a lot of these whistleblowers to go and, and get their stories out. And, and, and I mean there all this stuff is hidden in plain sight. Yes, it's all, it's all out there. You know, I've broken people on my show. You've broken a lot of people. And you know, these aren't just campfire stories. Like they really add up and in aggregate you have to like slap, you know, pretty high confidence level, especially when they all the details totally comport. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I mean as far as leaks go, there are, there are just numerous including credited and credible individuals. And you know, we talked about the Edwards 412 test wing back there as a major range and test facility base. Kind of like the mortar that sticks together these legacy programs. Well, I'm familiar with a Air Force lieutenant colonel out there who claims to have run a program that was focused on testing alien reproduction vehicles and derivative technology. This guy was an electronics Warfare group to test Group Director. He claimed to serve as the intermediary between test pilots on the ARV and contractors and scientists and so forth.

[Jesse]

Wow. And this was at Edwards?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes.

[Jesse]

412Th test division.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

412 test wing.

[Jesse]

Yeah, test wing.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The, the Edwards 412 test wing also operates. They're also the manned people at Area 51. Okay, so the Edwards 412 test wing also has a big presence at the NTTR Nevada Test and Training Range and the Tonopah test range.

[Jesse]

Wow. And so, and this, this lieutenant colonel from the Air Force, what is he saying about like the so for, for the audience, you know, if you're not aware, ARV is alien reproduction vehicle, which is basically a reverse engineered UFO maybe with some, you know, human tech slapped on to make it workable. And so what is he saying about these ARVs? How are they, are they similar to the Mark McCandlish story where it looks like human kind of older tech retrofitted on super advanced alien tech or what is it?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It seems like a more advanced platform. This guy has gone pretty quiet because I think he was, was threatened. All are in this topic. But his testimony mainly takes place between 2000, 1998 when the Nevada Test and Training Range was renamed from the 98th range wing and about 2007, 2008. So these were many times triangular airframes, saucer shaped airframes. Nothing too specific about that. But that's very interesting. The subject of alien reproduction vehicles. I've started to transition more to the usage of the term derivative technology because I think that ARV isn't the end all be all of what we're trying to do with an exploit from, from exotic non human technologies. I think, I think there are instance instances in which even just simple technologies are plucked off of exotic vehicles and tried to be adapted to, you know, prosaic US airframes.

[Jesse]

Yeah, the classic example I like kind of run into and I go back and forth on it is like, I think Townsend Brown figured out like you know, real anti gravity or whatever in the human kind of terrestrial context with these kind of capacitor experiments. But the thing he used to love to use was bismuth because it was a high K dielectric so it created more thrust. And then Gary Nolan from Jacques Vallee has these magnesium bismuth parts that he thinks came from Roswell. And so you have what looks, what appears to be something from kind of, you know, otherworldly or you know, nhi, you know, alien provenance actually helping in like an anti gravity experiment that we know was conducted, you know, in multiple contexts in the 1950s. So it's really crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think one of the big ones, one of the biggest sought after capabilities that has probably been harnessed is electro optic cloaking signature management for US airframes. I think to Dylan Borland and he's talking about the triangle he saw over Langley. You remember that? He's talking about how and the exterior of this triangle there seemed to be this lava esque flow. Yes, the Craft itself was this black metallic flake paint. But on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes and then the center light flashes two to three times.

[Jesse]

No sound.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum in my opinion. And I immediately feel static electricity all over my body. And then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm. That really strong summer thunderstorm smell gets up to flight level. I'm trying to get my phone reset and I can only see the center light at this point. If I didn't actually see it take off, I would have thought it was a star. And it seemed like the triangle appeared around a light, almost like it was using signature management capabilities. Now Dylan Borland, he said that I, I think he inferred, he doesn't think the vehicle was human, but because of what he, he learned after, after having some exposure into legacy programs, I still maintain that the triangles are likely human airframes, at least most of them. And electro optic cloaking is a, is a very sought after capability. There have been instances in the early 2000s in which specifically the army was interested in adapting electro optic cloaking to next generation combat vehicle. Think of an M1 Abrams tank with a cloaking device on it. But that makes sense, right?

[Jesse]

What makes you think the electro optic cloaking came from non human technology?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Witness testimony, Interesting witness testimony.

[Jesse]

But that, which witness testimony.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He, he doesn't want to be.

[Jesse]

Okay, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, yeah. But like can he speak high level to his.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, very high level.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Somebody that I would, I would trust with my life. Okay, but, but that makes sense, right? Like what would be a sought after capability if some of these UFOs exhibit, you know, some of the five or six observables including low observability, and some of these employ electro optic cloaking. That'd be a very sought after capability. I mean what could be more valuable than our aerial platforms or our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance platforms? ISR airframes that can literally go invisible and gather intelligence 100ft away from, from a target over denied airspace.

[Jesse]

What does this witness say? Anything that you can relay as far as how ex, you know, NHI derived?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, he didn't know. He doesn't know.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There was just a, there's vehicles that employed cloaking systems that there were facets of the army that was trying to adapt this to, to US vehicles. So that's, that's kind of one of the reasons I started to use derivative technology. I, I love the Mark McCandless story, which I, I do believe that is a legitimate story of the, the Flux Liner and basically a copycat vehicle. Basically the, you know, the sports model that Bob talks about being basically an extraterrestrial vehicle we're trying to figure out and drive. So I like using the term extra. I mean, sorry, derivative technology because I don't think in, in every single case, every single facet of legacy program is specifically trying to create ARV or just create copycat vehicles. I think there are times where technologies are, are bridged or Adapted to, to US airframes.

[Jesse]

And you think there is a kind of Majestic 12 equivalent today. So the Majestic 12 is this, you know, elite military intelligence scientific unit created, you know, under, under Truman and Eisenhower. Do you think that that exists today? And do you think like you mentioned Dick Cheney? So Walter Kern is actually a buddy of mine and, and you know, also knows David Grush and he came out and he was like, I expected the head of the UFO legacy program to be like a Templar in Europe or something, a Night of Malta, a Knight of Malta, but in fact a Rosicrucian whatever, but in fact it's, it was just Dick Cheney, you know, is.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So.

[Jesse]

Like, do you think there's a majestic 12? Do you think somebody like a Dick Cheney was in the modern day equivalent of the Majestic 12?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, I think Dick Cheney absolutely was. I mean he's passed now. I think he was the head of some facets of UFO programs for a while. As far as Majestic 12, it's so complicated with all the documents I'm of the mind a group called MAJ12 did certainly exist. And then with the Majestic documents I think there's some legitimate documents, some passage material documents and then some obvious hoaxes. Yep, I'm particularly fond of the Eisenhower briefing document, you know, the document that apparently briefed presidential incumbent Dwight D. Eisenhower upon the Majestic 12's creation. There's interesting details that line up with James V. Forestall meeting with, with President Truman at the same time that the MJ12 was allegedly set up. Same with Walter B. Smith being read into the MJ12 after James Forrestal was thrown out of a naval hospital window and apparently Walter Bean Smith taking his replacement in Mag 12 and actual meetings with Truman on that exact date, as well as the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit documents that were I think released in 1994, 1995 to Tim Cooper from a pseudonym, Thomas Cantwell. Yeah, those are interesting. The IPU doc specifically there. The IPU was kind of discovered through FOIA requests in 1986, 1987 by researchers such as William Steinman. According to FOIA, IPU, the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, was an in house army unit, only existing through institutional memory. There are people like Kevin Randall that kind of proposed some debunks. Like the IPU was like an internal processing unit for the mail room of the Army. I.

[Jesse]

Do you know who Steinman, foia, like which government agency let out that the IPU existed?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It was Army Counterintelligence.

[Jesse]

Army cic. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty interesting, right? They're saying this thing exists, but it only exists in institutional memory. All the records were wiped out because.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Apparently this was held under like a J2 or something at the time.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What's interesting, I kind of recently went through the IPU docs specifically related to Sandia because we can talk, we should and can talk specifically probably about what institutions, what people, what places are probably engaged in the programs. But the IPU doc, the field report or the IP report, it stated like July 1947. And this basically details allegedly how the Roswell retrieval incident went down. And the document talks about a special engineering detachment, a sed, sed, which was like a Manhattan Project engineering detachment and stuff being sent out to the Roswell wreckage, led by one Colonel Housebrook of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, AFSWP basically to attend to the wreckage and so forth. The AFSWP is very interesting. It was, it was started one half by James Forestall and by another individual. The AFSWP has gone through a series of evolutions and today is known as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, or ditra. DITRA is what Dylan Borland just said on the Weaponized podcast housed old Atomic Energy Commission records that stated that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. The AFSWP was established in 1947 at Sandia Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, right at the same time when Los Alamos Z Division, which was kind of their weapon ordinance arm, established operations at Sandia Base. So Sandia National Lab, which is a Department of Energy and NSA national lab, can kind of trace their roots back to Los Alamos C Division at Sandia Bay. So it's interesting that this AFSWP and Sandia kind of started and evolved around the same time. So the IPU docs are a really interesting thing that I think deserve a lot of attention from the Majestic documents.

[Jesse]

That's fascinating. Doesn't Timothy Cooper though specifically doubt like the Majestic 12 stuff? Most. Didn't he say, like, I Think these documents are bullshit.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people do. And of course, how could you not when you have guys like Rick Doty and Bill Moore kind of involved? When at a MUFON conference, Bill Moore basically says, hey, I was instructed to sow disinformation into the community. That's why, like, if you're going to talk about the Majestic documents, it can never be, hey, this is evidence or kind of verification for a claim I'm exploring or something. It should be. The Majestic documents should be used as an auxiliary. If you're talking about a subject and already have a strong thesis or strong argument, be like, hey, well, this is pretty interesting. These Majestic documents talk about this, but you can't rely on it too heavy because who knows? There's probably a lot of passive material like the Psalm 101 that Tim Phillips and Arrow have been using behind the scenes to talk about. You know that.

[Jesse]

No, I didn't.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Tim Phillips went on the Event Horizon podcast and talked about that Arrow found.

[Jesse]

You know, tell the audience who Tim Phillips is.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, Tim Phillips is the very disgraced ex deputy director of Arrow. After Sean Kirkpatrick turned coat and ran to Oak Ridge National Laboratories, rnl, which is another doe, NSA National Laboratory, which weirdly deleted his job posting. Tim Phillips took over as @arrow, started immediately lashing out to Dave Grush on LinkedIn. Do you remember that? And then he was let go from Arrow for being a bit of a wild card. But he started doing podcast rounds similar to what Shawn Kirkpatrick did and would tell specifically, like the Event Horizon podcast during his tenure at Arrow, they found like this, this manual which talks about like packaging and unpackaging debris and craft and bodies from an extraterrestrial vehicle crash and how this thing was like chock full of diagrams and all this stuff. And then he would kind of change his story whether he was on air or off air. Details of this document. Of course, this is the Psalm 101 and off air to various people. Sean Kirkpatrick made similar comments about, about the document. So it's weird that Arrow specifically is, is. Is pushing that.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, it is weird. But you find all these sort of crazy connections with Kirkpatrick and his past and the doe.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh my goodness.

[Jesse]

It's just kind of crazy. Okay, so I want to rehash this for the audience because you just threw out a lot of names and acronyms.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So you have somebody like Dick Cheney maybe at the top. Yeah. And then you have these six different kind of high up intelligence organizations stuff and DoD stuff.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay, so you have DoD plus intelligence organizations and then below that you have the FFRDCs. And then below that you have the.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Contractors defense industrial base.

[Jesse]

And so it's like when Jake Barber comes out and he says I'm the fingertips or whatever, like it's because he's working at, you know, he says, you know, you, you could pick your tooth. And I think Danny Shan accused him of being at Northrop. So maybe we could go with whatever Sheehan says. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrievals? Look, man, if you took two guesses.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

You'D get both of them right on the first try.

[Jesse]

There you go. But like he's. Barber is doing kind of the, the just tip of the spear, you know, job and he's not given the full context. And then the FFRDCs have a little bit more context, some insulation as far as federal funding. And then above that the intelligence organizations. And then above that you have like what Cabinet level people like, like, do you have a sense of like who the equivalent of Dick Cheney is now?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know, but if I had to guess, it'd be somebody with a naval background and an intelligence community background.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It seems like naval programs have been tip of the spear for a long time and deal with a lot of really sensitive stuff because they also deal with the subject of uso.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And that sort of transmedial capability to travel underwater undetected and, and their hidden intelligence agency, the Neuro, seems very high priority. So I would imagine this is somebody with a joint naval and intelligence community background.

[Jesse]

Makes sense. Yeah. Harold Malmgren kept emphasizing that the Office of Naval Intelligence knew way more than meets the eye. Test details are controlled by Naval intelligence. It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s. And if that was like, you know, at his time, you know, 60s and 70s, you would think that there would be this through line between then and now. You obviously have, you know, rumors about Bobby Ray Inman.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know, being sort of involved, you know, with this stuff as well. And so, you know, maybe he would be somebody at the Cheney level. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be become available for technological research outside of the military circles? Again? I honestly don't know. Ten years ago the answer would have been no. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it is a possibility.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Let's actually go Through a couple of those, like below Cheney kind of at, at the tip of the spear for the administrator level.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or are spearheading or have high level exposure to UFO legacy program.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Have extensive backgrounds in the nro. So I have a couple documents here. Maybe we can go go through a couple of these. These are just kind of people that I'd love to talk about.

[Jesse]

Cool.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So for the nro you have maybe we could start with Bobby Ray Inman.

[Jesse]

Right? Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Bobby Ray Inman, when he talked, spoke to Bob Eschler in 1989, 1988. He referred NASA Mission Specialist Bob Eschler to Sumner Shapiro, Director of Naval Intelligence as well as R Ever or are Evans Hindman. His naming convention's a little weird. Hyman was the NRO Program B Director from 1982 to 1989. NRO Program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between The NRO and CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. And the ground element of NRO Program B was established at Pine Gap, Australia. I know Pine Gap is super spooky.

[Jesse]

But they call it Australia's Area 51.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right, right. And Bobby Ray Inman basically said, hey to Eschler, if you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles, go talk to Hindman. Other interesting people with high level connections to the NRO include Donald Kerr. Donald Kerr was mentioned in Okie Shannon's 1985 Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group documents. This was a physics group held at BDM International in 1985 at their McLean facility. Super, super, super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at stubble. Bine was involved with all this stuff.

[Jesse]

And I'll put.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, and Okie Shannon's notes. It's like ask Don Kerr for funding when talking about like UFO reverse engineering programs.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Donald Kerr was of course high level position in the NRO. He was director of EG&G. He was Director of Los Alamos, director of SAIC, deputy director of the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. So there's this specific weird. There's this really specific weird kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA DSNT.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And with that CSI CIA DSNT back in 2003, the CIA Directorate of Science and Technology, which maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit. So I said the NRO had Program B at Pine Gap. Early days of the nro it had program A, B, C and D. At a time in the 90s or so, this was reorganized into directorates just kind of subgroups under the NRO under the CIA. So I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are stuffed within these directorates. And to speak about the nro in the CIA's Directorate of Science Technology, there's a lot of really weird, really weird crossovers there. So I think it's important to look at individuals with, with connections to nro, CIA, dsnt. Yeah, two high level, almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the Mitre Corporation, which is an ffrdc. There's a very tangled web between nro, dsn, the MITER and then two offices within the United States government. I'd like to talk about a little bit. This would be the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, OSUD ans. This has previously gone through numerous naming conventions as the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition renamed into the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, then renamed to the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition Technology and Logistics. Finally to its naming convention today for Acquisition and Sustainment, the OUSTAT Acquisition and Technology is the office kind of named in the Wilson Davis Notes as holding kind of records to special carve out holdover programs that housed kind of direct access to legacy programs that Flag Officer Thomas Wilson allegedly started to look through where he found the watch committee high level gatekeepers for UFO legacy programs. One of the individuals he spoke about who was kind of director of the AUSTAT at that time and permanent SAPOX Special Access Program over Oversight committee member was Mr. Paul Kaminsky. Paul Kaminsky is an individual that I, I, I think would be interesting to look at a little more in regards to UFO legacy programs. He was of course in the ALAT and he was of course on the board of trustee for the Miter Corporation now. And so that the OWAT that's named all throughout the Wilson Davis Notes, that is a Department of Defense position. Its counter position in the intelligence community is called the ddni, atnf, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for AC Acquisition Technology and Facilities. So the ALSTAT are now noticed today Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment and this DDNI are two sides of the same coin. These two offices, according to the gao, they, they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions.

[Jesse]

Okay, interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So that DDNI, ATNF is rather interesting. On one hand you have Paul Kaminsky, who, who was ALSTAT and mitre. On the other hand you have somebody like Don Myricks right here who is MITRE and DDNI ATNF with a long agency background. Long, very weird agency background.

[Jesse]

Former Deputy Director of the CIA for Science and Technology. And we know a couple of, you know, connections. There is Glenn Gaffney, obviously Director of Science and Technology for the CIA.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAPSAP federation?

[Jesse]

I have a name for you.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

[Jesse]

Now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically, you know, blocked this, you know, moving of exotic, you know, non human origin technology that was under Lockheed, that was supposed to go to Bigelow Aerospace in 2008. And Glenn Gaffney apparently bought this crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And you can thank the the arrow historical report, volume one for talking that out. 2008, seems there was a first attempt that was blocked by James Clapper.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The second event was the Kona Blue failed peaceapper. So James Clapper blocked the Historical Report, Volume one says.

[Jesse]

Well, that's interesting because isn't James Clapper in the Age of Disclosure movie? So what's up with that?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

Is he playing outside?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

General Clapper, the former DNI in the documentary.

[Jesse]

I certainly applaud him for at least.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Speaking out in general. He goes on. I believe I've only seen clips of Age of Disclosure, not the whole thing where there was a program when he.

[Jesse]

Was the Director of National Intelligence where.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They were tracking these vehicles over Area 51, of course, the famed classified test location. And I'm a little bit disappointed as a fellow Air Force officer and certainly.

[Jesse]

General Clapper rose to the ranks as three star general.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's all he said in the documentary, that that was a program he was aware of. In fact, without being inappropriate, I will say that General Clapper was well aware.

[Jesse]

Of the crash retrieval issue, managed the crash retrieval issue.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And when he was the dni, USDI DIA director, he placed people in critical.

[Jesse]

Roles to manage this issue, both publicly.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And I'll just say non publicly as well. And I'll allow the audience distill what I'm saying at the risk of being.

[Jesse]

Inappropriate or going too far with my discussion.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, calls me Mike. I need you to go through all of it. I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding, all of its files and I need everything that you have on UFOs. And I'm like, what sir? You want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs? You see, the CIA, DS&T, according to Kona Blue has had direct involvement in blocking UFO legacy programs. Uh, recall the, the excellent reporting of Christopher Sharp, UK journalist.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He broke a great story about the CIA's Office of Global Access.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Which was created under the DSNT in the year 2003.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That is basically tasked with foreign UFO crash retrievals. This is a logistics agency. This is a combat support agency. So you know, let's just say in Honduras an egg shaped craft goes down. The CIA, OGA would be responsible for getting, you know, JSOC tier 1 adjacent assets and probably the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team and other assets down to retrieve the craft. Do you know the first director of oga, the Office of Global Access, Doug Wolf. This is Doug Wolf. Do you know Doug wolf additionally spent 16 years in the NRO Executive. He was the executive assistant to the Director of the National Reconnaissance Office. He was indeed CIA DS&T Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA. And indeed he was the DDNI ATNF. The Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions.

[Jesse]

Crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's, there's, there's a ton of people like that. There's an individual named Mark Moynihan if you, if you find him on LinkedIn. He's total spook of spooks. This guy ddni, atnf, this guy CIA, oga, CIA, CIA, dsnt, nro. So there seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFO Legacy Program gatekeepers and one of those gatekeeping offices, the DSNT and the nro.

[Jesse]

Oh, it seems like this revolving door old boys club where you go from the DSNT of the CIA to you know, MITER Corporation or you know, some other federally funded research and development. Go to RAND or whatever.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, it seems you go to the NRO or you know, I can't stress this enough about the importance of mitre. Yeah, yeah, the DOE national labs, you know, Sandia, Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, those are critical. But the importance of miter. MITER is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject.

[Jesse]

Why do you think that is?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Because they deal with naval programs. Interesting subject of uso.

[Jesse]

And what's their role with respect to the Navy? Is it like tech protection or is.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It probably everything a UFO related stuff or indus Industrial Security to SAP management to monitoring large craft under the water to material exploitation to briefing oversight channels that exist to doing all sorts of stuff. The, the, the MITRE pipeline of people who have worked for mitre. As you can see, Paul Kaminsky Don Myricks, Donald Kerr, numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO legacy programs end up at mitre.

[Jesse]

Well, it's funny, I know them in the context of like holding these anti gravity conferences. Yeah. And like, I think Ning Lee spoke at 1 in the early 2000s. She was this famous Chinese American, you know, anti gravity researcher at University of Alabama, Hun Ville. She claimed to make all these breakthroughs in like weight reduction above. Yeah, amazing. And. Or I think it's weight reduction, which is a little distinct from mass reduction, you're right. Yeah, but, but yes, same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it, you know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And, and, and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and you know, sort of these, you know, you know, alternating current rotating superconductors. She's saying she wants to create free energy for the world. She's citing how put off and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums and stuff. And then she gets a contract, I believe, with the Army. She gets a security clearance and then nobody ever really hears from her again. She gets hit by a car. It's sort of really weird. But she was seen last publicly speaking at this MITRE Corporation conference about anti gravity.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, well, I met her and I did sit down. I interviewed her and this was at a conference in 2003 just outside of Washington D.C. run by them, overseen by the MITRE Corporation. And it was looking at, I think, high frequency gravitational waves. And you know, she, she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA experiments I mentioned earlier about rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments. And she chaired one of the sessions, I talked to her afterwards about it all. She had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people, it should be very philanthropic in its nature and outcomes. And then I don't know how soon after that it was that she sort of went off grid at certain, certainly probably about within, within a year that she just disappeared and no one knew what had happened to her. That's like just recently there was a slide deck, not really leaked, but kind of rediscovered about Eric Davis doing a teleportation study for the Mitre Corporation, dated back to 2019.

[Jesse]

And so when, cause you have people online like Ashton Forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation. Like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a, a macro scale human being or something. When I've spoken to Eric Davis, he seems to be, you know, like talking about like quantum Teleportation saying like, that's already established science. And you know, that sounds insane because the word teleportation is in it. But like, is that necessarily involved in like UFO tech or is it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know. So much of the science and physics is so far beyond me. I'm.

[Jesse]

Me too.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

As boring as it sounds, I like the money, I like the, the program names, I like the offices because. Because while we're, while we're speaking about kind of these administrators, nro, CIA, DSMT and kind of their string pullers and the ddni, ATNF and ALSTAT are now ousdas. You talked about Kona Blue, which was the failed prospective special access program that occurred in 2010. And we can actually thank Arrow for releasing that slide deck. Weirdly enough, this was to be a DHS sponsored USAP unacknowledged special access program for Lockheed Martin to divulge some craft materials to the offset program and Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Studies Bass. And these materials were supposed to be bits and pieces of craft. Craft hall, craft Bulkhead. I myself have heard this involved the Kingman wreckage from the 1953 Kingman Arizona crash. And that Lockheed Martin Vice President Jim Ryder, James Ryder, was the one who wanted to get rid of these materials for who knows? And Conventionally, Glenn Gaffney, CIA DS&T Deputy Director, was the one who put the kibosh and killed this. Our mutual friend Rob Jones has done some amazing work. He also offers in the name Robert Cardillo, who is actually DDNI and head of the nga, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And while I think Robert Cardillo was absolutely involved and people should go look up Robert Cardillo if they're unfamiliar with him, I think this was a DS&T operation, specifically Glenn Gaffney to put the kibosh on this. So in my Lockheed project, while looking into Kona Blue clue, I kind of came across that there may have been a conflict of interest within Lockheed Martin, maybe an insider in Lockheed who helped put the kibosh on the program. This is an individual, and I'll pass you this in a second, named Mary K. Sturtevant. This is a name that it was never really floated around. I made a tweet about this, begging Chris Mellon to give some information on her, to which he has declined in both a public outreach on Twitter and private messages. I have not heard from him.

[Jesse]

What did he say? Say?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, no, just nothing.

[Jesse]

Oh, nothing. Okay, no response.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So Sturtavant here has a really weird history. She worked at the BDM Corporation. In 1985, she joined the agency. When I say agency, I mean CIA for counterintelligence, tech protection, all that stuff. She kind of went. She worked in Joint CIA Directorate of Operations and CIA Directorate of Science and Technology Programs. She was a very high level Deputy Director position in the nro. And then she also served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, where she and Chris Mellon actually worked together for numerous years. Not only did they work together, but they attended many of the same meetings. Not only did they attend many of the same meetings, but over certain periods and quarters, they have the exact same per diem, which implies that they traveled together, they ate together, they attended the same meetings together on the same cars, the same craft. So I would wager these two have a very. They know each other quite well. She was also served as a special Advisor to the President under George W. Bush. And in 2006, she joined Lockheed Martin. Martin as the Vice President for government affairs from 2006 to 2021, as well as VP for intelligence, joint and Science and Technology programs. So I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Lockheed Martin. Once your agency. Your agency for life. Right. If you're in the CIA, you're never out of the CIA, especially the Directorate of Science and Technology. So I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that due to her obligations and allegiance to the CIA, DS&T, she had to help put the kibosh on this technology transfer.

[Jesse]

And also, you think of if she knew Melon. I mean, you think of Melon also as very pro, you know, kind of UFO stuff. At least now, what I would say.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

To Christopher Mellon, if he's watching this, because I've asked him numerous times. Ask her again, Mr. Mellon, because I'm sure this time she'll remember.

[Jesse]

Okay. Yeah, there you go.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I'm sure this time she'll remember.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And here is Mary Sturtevant.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, you. You often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well. Yeah. Like you hear about, you know, Mike Turner, who put the kibosh on, you know, this last. Or uapda, Not. Not this last one, but the one before it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right. 2020 fiscal year 2024, I believe that's right.

[Jesse]

And, you know, you. You hear that like, you know, the people, you know, the largest donors to his campaign are like, you know, Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, whatever, whatever. But then simultaneously, you have Lockheed clearly trying to get a bunch of information out through efforts like, you know, they spent a lot of time with Tom DeLonge and PTSA and that sort of thing, secret machines. And so it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur. Obviously when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA that involve taking their material and you know, making it kind of, you know, Congressional civilian oversight, you know, you know, they're, they're obviously not going to be happy about that, but it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the process.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, it seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure. One of the most obvious factions is TTSA which involves the whole offs APP crew. Eric Davis, Hal put off, Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, all these guys. Their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non human intelligence and technical vehicles and that there's programs to recover these. But no discussion of derivation of technology is possible, possibly for national security concerns or whatever they want to say. And they really like to pose the whole NHI or supernational security threat narrative. The whole TTSA saga is very weird. It seems like in, in 2011 Tom DeLonge was plucked. This could have been an old Bass Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Studies project. You know, they had some of their, their documents under OS app kind of not leaked but discovered. And there was discussion of a project forum within those which was to basically in California take, you know, celebrities, media personalities, popular people to start talking about the UFO subject. And I think that likely Tom DeLong and TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Lou Elizondo under direction of something like the National Security Council to bring forth limited disclosures. TTSA is wacky when you look at it. You know, Tom DeLonge had numerous, numerous high level advisors. Whether it was somebody like Lou Elizondo, a whole history in counterintelligence, guys like Steve justice from Lockheed Martin, high level Air Force generals and yeah, these guys were saying, hey, you know, all these, all these technologies are locked up in black budgets but we're gonna, we don't really know how to do it, but we're gonna try and make our own like light craft, we're gonna try and make our own ARVs and all that. So it just seems almost like a bastardization of what legacy programs are doing. Like an, like all these guys, Steve justice who had worked in programs or been exposed to them had amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector.

[Jesse]

There were clearly guys involved in that who, who had ulterior motives and that I Do think. I think, you know, some people don't give Tom DeLonge enough credit for modern disclosure because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject, I think if it weren't for a lot of what he got out. And I do think he on his own organically made a ton of connections, poked the bear a lot to the effect of a lot of these guys coming out to him. And he kind of, I think, put a lot of this stuff together. And so yeah, may maybe they're, you know, ulterior motives with some of the people, but not Tom. But I don't think Tom had ulterior motive. I think he had very genuine, you.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Know, he was a trailblazer.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I also think a strong argument can be made he was exposed to some pretty radical stuff whether this was authorized or unauthorized disclosures. If you look at his appearance on Joe ROGAN Back in 2017, October of 2017, this was like the radical time that he came out and talked about ttsa, there's something that really caught my eye there and I think a strong argument can be made. Tom DeLonge was exposed to elements of Immaculate Constellation.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

We know Immaculate Constellation as the. The USAT Matthew Brown was exposed to that began in 2017 that utilized US intelligence platforms, overhead platforms implying NRO with spy satellites and overhead collection platforms, probably NGA and and numerous various intelligence gathering systems to, to monitor both non human craft and alien reproduction vehicles. There are plenty of interesting cases including slowly rotating triangles over Indopatcom Indo Pacific Command within Matthew Brown's Immaculate Constellation document saucer shaped craft seemingly using cloud coverage as cover and all that. So. But the connection I'm trying to make and why I think a strong argument Tom DeLonge was exposed to immaculate constellation in 2017, the year Imcon was began is if you listen closely to that Joe Rogan interview. Tom DeLonge talks about episodic visits of craft. He says that his high level sources in the NRO specifically told him that scientists and eggheads had figured out ways to basically pre predict when and where CRAFT would appear. And thus satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would, would capture these quote unquote episodic visits.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

His connections to the animals NRO whilst he was at ttsa. Lou Elizondo was liaison to the nro. He was liaison to the nro.

[Jesse]

Whoa. I don't think a lot of people know that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

No, that's not, that's, that's not public knowledge. But yeah, he was liaison to the nro.

[Jesse]

How'd you figure that out?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Curriculum cv.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Cv.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Liaison to the nro. And if you look at the Immaculate Constellation documents numerous sightings, talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly has had foreknowledge of the event. Almost like the, the system was put in place to collect data on the appearance of the UFO or arv, but the system knew it was going to be there. It had foreknowledge, it could, it could track the erratically moving Tic Tac or the saucer. So I think there's a connection there with those episodic visits and the foreknowledge of, of craft sighting. The Immaculate Constellation documents. The timelines add up too. I, I think that's, that's something that worthy to be explored. If you ask Luis Elizondo if he was read into Immaculate Constellation, of course it's a usop, so he'll have to deny that. But I think some interesting questions there that could be explored.

[Jesse]

It's so fascinating. I think the more you read books like Secret Machines or like, you know, look at a lot of Tom delong's, you know, old interviews and stuff, you're like, I'll often like, I'll catalog some of these things and I'll be like, well, I'm not so sure. And then I'll do my own open source research and I'll run into something and I'm like, damn. He was like, right about that too. Like, you know, like he, he talks about, I think the Maynard Consortium and Secret Machines. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Based on the Jason Committee.

[Jesse]

The Jason Committee, or it was like, I think it was like this international corporate that oversaw the UFO issue. And it's either the Jason Committee, I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the U.S. like our, you know, kind of most sensitive weaponry. But I almost associate that with, you know, if you read like Jacques Vallee's Forbidden Science. He talks about like the Carlisle Group constantly coming up, you know, and even Ben Rich, there's a quote in the early 90s, I think with his letters, between him and John Andrews, I think of Testers Motor Corp. And he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be rested out of the International governance board and taken into American hands. And so, you know, you, you have a lot of things like that where you're like, you know, it seems like Tom actually was, had a lot of great info.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, and that's such a great point because it seems like, you know, whether it's a Five Eyes retrieval program or you know, tech protection stuff like the Jason Committee which was founded out of MITRE by the way.

[Jesse]

Uh, interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Cool.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So that's why start looking at MITRE also like as a, as a side note when was MITRE and a lot of these FFRDC started like the Aerospace Corporation, 1959, 1960. That's exactly when Colonel Philip J. Corso of the Army's not Air Forces Foreign Technology Division says that technologies were being seeded into basically US defense contractors to try to adapt to improve US military might connection there. Probably.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And you have. You know I interviewed Harold Malmgren as you know and he was at a federally funded research and development and you know he said point blank before you know somebody wrote this like blog post kind of takedown of him. He said my work at the IDA was actually a cover for what I was doing for the National Security Council and the President. And so you. It was clear even back then that like you had this kind of old boys club, the kind of wild wild west cowboy intelligence agencies and FFRDCs were used as a front kind of often because his mentor at the IDA was Richard Bissell. Richard Bissell not only was deputy director of plans for the CIA later founded Area 51 basically to test the U2 spy plane. But then also you know you mentioned this to me last night. I had forgotten. Founded the the nro. He was one of the co founders.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He was one of the co directors because just like we talked about with The NRO and CIA DS&T, the NRO was an. The NRO is unique because it exists as a joint DODIC agency. And upon its creation in 1961 after a shoot down of a U2 spy plane over denied airspace in the Soviet Union the nro co directors one from the DoD, one from the IC.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And it's weird that the CIA seems to have a little tug of war over any lately founded US intelligence agency. Same thing with the Neuro founded in 1969. Up until 1972 there was a huge tug of war between the Navy and CIA specifically the DSMT over who controls the Neuro. And then of course Bobby Raynman takes over and he's. He is just agency out the wazoo. So yeah. Further interesting parallels between that. Richard Bissell is an interesting person I. I'm particularly fond of and I think you probably are too of Richard Biss allegedly briefing Malm Grin on otherworldly technologies. As we know our buddy Randy Anderson off world Technologies Division under The Naval Surface Warfare Center.

[Jesse]

Crane yeah, yeah, there's definitely seems like something might line up there. What do you think of you know, Malm Grin's testimony? Because I did that interview and I honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by like you know, mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential advisor for jfk, lbj, Nixon and Ford. You could argue with his level of seniority with you know, JFK specifically. But he admitted that like you know, he didn't deal a ton with JFK directly. He dealt, dealt more with Shriver or whatever. And then you can't really argue with his, you know, connections with the other presidents. I think he, he rose in senior seniority, you know, as time went on. Yeah, clearly was connected at the highest levels of government to me, you know and I've met a lot of like, I think pretty impressive people. Like just pattern match to somebody who had a, a map of the world in his head was a total kind of Kissinger type. You know, maybe without the bad vibes that Kissinger had. You know, that the, the, the, the, the desire to create destruction and manipulate. I think it was in some ways he was kind of like the opposite of Kissinger and he was actually, you know, likely. I think, you know, I think he, he was CIA. Yeah. And, and I think he was likely actually appointed to kind of restrain Kissinger in many ways. Like he was kind of, he was, he was tapped with reigning in Kissinger who was seen as this kind of rogue guy. So what do you think of his testimony? Because there are some people who've, I think that's kind of this coordinated job but like some people have come out and attacked him since, since that interview.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think Malm Grin was likely CIA and his position at the IDA was a knock or non official cover which is a very common thing for agency stuff. Yeah, I hope that, I think over time that Malm Grin's testimony is going to age like fine line. I mean I was, I was re listening to your project with him just for one of my projects and I was particularly intrigued when he is talking about intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves and so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels because they basically fund themselves. This comports exactly with what I think about institutions like the NRO or other intelligence agencies and UFO legacy programs, 1994, 1995, they can use carryover funds basically to do whatever the heck they want. I also think that I hope the 1962 Bluegill Triple Prime Nuclear test starts to get revisited with what Malm Grin said. Of course, that was a. Was that, were those tests over Bikini Atoll? Where were those?

[Jesse]

Johnston Atoll.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes. Yeah, I know there's been some discussion on whether that was a targeting pod or something that that was knocked out by the residual EMP at the nuclear blast. When stated that, you know, Bissell briefed him on that being a ufo. I think Jeff Cruikshank has done some incredible work and is still to this day making the argument that that was a UFO recovered by the. I think it was. Engage.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What's interesting about, about that testimony is those tests were a. Were conducted under the a Evolution Agency of the afswp. The Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, which eventually became ditra. I can't remember the agency specifically af. AFSWP went through like eight or nine iterations before it became ditra. Sorry, not eight or nine. That's an exaggeration. Like four or five.

[Jesse]

Yeah, but that agency did the testing. Really?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And SANDIA supplied like the specific rocket payload for that testing and such. But what's interesting to me is when Dylan Borland talks about old Atomic Energy Commission records talking about concluding that UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles based upon the Atomic Energy Commission. I, I wonder if part of those records adhere to the AFSWP before it came became dittra recording that crash.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And the whole, I mean, so there's this guy, you know, Dean Johnson, who took, you know, TR to do this like takedown of Malm Grin and the whole takedown was like, you know, he couldn't have held the Q clearance, which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the FBI at all if the guy was CIA. You just wouldn't. And especially if you're a non official cover CIA. There's just no way. And so I think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot. And then you could say, well, he wasn't CIA. But it's like if you read the tea leaves on the interview, he's saying he handled the Presidential Daily Brief. That's a CIA thing. He's saying he's best friend, friends with Tom Farmer, who happened to be the general counsel of the CIA. He had Paul Mellon's walking stick in the interview and I'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever because I wanted to see it. And he had it offhand, just in his apartment. Does it represent anything? It looks very unique. He has a lot of power. So Paul Mellon's the founder, one of the founders of the CIA. So, like, I don't know, you gotta read the. Read the kind of tea leaves on it, you know, And I. I kind of, I think figured that out through kind of basic research. You know, he's at Oxford, he's Yale. You know, it's like Richard Bissell's your mentor. He's deputy director. He's number two in the entire CIA. We have Richard Bissell all over his diary, all over it. So it's like so clear to me that he was CIA. And then, I don't know, I felt like maybe it was hard for me to. To break this, you know, gentlemanly oath that he had. He was kind of breaking it on his own, you know, he clearly was breaking it in the UFO context. But I felt weird explicitly outing him.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. So I said, hey, are you CIA? Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And it's. The guy's like, you know, literally by the time we had put it out, he had passed away sadly. And so, like, I just didn't feel like it was my place. But I did insert a little thing at the very beginning in the monologue saying, if you. If you like. Look, if you, like, watch this entire interview, you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the eye.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And I think that didn't. Maybe a lot of people didn't process that. Clearly DeeDee and Johnson didn't. But I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The. The Q clearance specifically is kind of a mute point to me. Of course, Q clearance is. The DOE is equivalent. Equivalent of a top secret clearance. I mean, so there, there are some. Not public individuals that, that I'm familiar with, with. One of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a. A crash retrieval team. UFO Crash retrieval team out of the Nevada Test and Training Range. I've spent a lot of time kind of vetting this person and, and studying their claims. And I. I have to say, I. I do trust them and believe them.

[Jesse]

And at Area 51.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

At Area 51. Adjacent sites.

[Jesse]

Adjacent sites.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Not S4, but adjacent sites.

[Jesse]

Okay, can you say where or one.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Such place would be? The Tonopah Test range, ttr, which is managed by sand. Sandia, which is the Department of Energy's experimental weapons testing range.

[Jesse]

And what does he say he does specifically in the context of crash.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, we'll, we'll talk about that. That's interesting. There's some interesting points there. But basically this guy was sheep dipped from another US Military branch. Sheep D. We know that term from Jake Barber. Going down the Combat Controller Pipeline taken.

[Jesse]

Into the program means getting, Getting erased. Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's an agency term, right.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Going full ghost. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So this guy was sheep dipped into the, the programs and four programs went on, on. On blue sites or unacknowledged sites just to hang out for staging ops, for rapid reaction retrieval teams. He has a badge, the badge has NRO on it and it just has a haphazardly slapped on Q clearance. So again, I have to state that this, I can't really provide evidence for this guy's testimony to you, and this should be taken with conjecture, of course, but this individual, I, I personally believe his testimony and seems like he never tested for a Q clearance. He never went through any sort of system to get a Q clearance. He was just given it.

[Jesse]

He was just given the Q clearance.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And the re. I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically. But as far as the classification and clearances of this stuff of the Atomic Energy Commission and special Nuclear material, all of that stuff is really important.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah, so go, go watch David Grush on Joe Rogan if you've got. If you've watched it once, watched again, if you've watched it twice, watch it half a dozen times and listen to the minutiae of what he says. Specifically legacy programs, starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the Manhattan project and the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement, birthing a lot of the secrecy behind UFO legacy program classification and controls. From that, we can take that the Department of Energy and its precursor agency, the Atomic Energy Commission, they hold a lot of the classification systems that govern UFO legacy programs and secrecy and who gets right into the bigot list and the usops and how the programs are delegated and where they're housed and so forth.

[Jesse]

Forth.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And specifically, there's numerous mechanisms that the Atomic Energy Commission and Department of Energy can utilize based upon the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. These include special nuclear materials, anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radio. Yeah, radioactive signatures, just. Oh, let's put that as Special Nuclear Material Transclassified Foreign Nuclear Information, which that's famously outlined in the UAPDA for three years in a row, specifically named tfni, Transclassified Foreign Nuclear Information Information and FII Foreign Intelligence Information. Now, what's interesting about foreign intelligence information is, is there's a caveat to it that I think really enforces my theory. One subset of foreign intelligence information FII is non contract, which means not releasable to customers or Contractors. I believe this is a security mechanism used for Department of Energy and their semi autonomous subordinate agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration, to obfuscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA national labs. Sandia, Lawrence Liberty, or more Los alamos than the Y12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge. So that's a very interesting rabble to go to because of course there's. It seems like with legacy programs there's numerous layers of program security. There's the DARPA sid. If you're considered an insider outsider threat to them, they'll just kill you.

[Jesse]

Really.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's the DOE oici who.

[Jesse]

Are there examples of them like taking people out or.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

No, I. No, not public. Yeah, but the DOE OICI die.

[Jesse]

Well, where are you getting that though, that DARPA said can just like take people out?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, I made a, I just made a tweet about this pretty recently about the DARPA SID and basically their program protection structure for special access programs within the United States for the most national security like restrictive special access programs, the most innovative exotic technology programs for the United States. And it just, it stands to reason that the CIA historically hasn't had a problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to. If there's an insider outsider threat, such a program protection agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not hesitate twice to neutralize insider outsider threats. Just like whistleblowers we know today face reprisals. Right. David Grush has faced reprisals. I know individuals who have had pensions threatened, threatened with inappropriate stuff on their computers, really disgusting graphic stuff that is just abhorrent to think about. And so it just stands to reason if somebody is a direct threat to a program protection structure, that they might be taken out.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Sometimes wonder if there's some biological, like if you, if you want like a full clampdown control on like people who are part of a program. Are there chips you're embedding? Are you giving them shots where you can kind of switch them off later in life? Are there, are there things like. I mean, it's horrible to think about, but do you think some of that stuff is going on?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's one common thread I found and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. There's Michael Herrera, who observed the. While deployed on the USS Denver in Sumatra, Indonesia, experienced a team in all black of operators in a large, seemingly reverse engineered man made craft. There's Jonathan Wigant and his infamous 1997 crash retrieval encounter. And then there's Roderick Castle, who during the Hunter Warrior advanced warfighting experiment in 1997, while he was an AV8B Harrier aviation technician basically was ordered to check out some unauthorized flare activity. Saw a massive 200, 300 foot triangle and accompanying black team. He was held at gunpoint. All three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. Back in the 90s there was a huge controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters. Roger Castle specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and an anthrax booster. So weird that right after his experience of this, this team and this triangle, likely man made triangle, he's given another booster. Same with Weigant, same with Herrera.

[Jesse]

Anthrax booster.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So weird.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What prompted me on this is you.

[Jesse]

Saw some sensitive technology. Now you. To be protected from anthrax.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with. Like we. Who, who's talking about anthrax?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right. What was interesting to me is initially it was, it was Roger Castle that said this. He was like, yeah, afterwards I was given an anthrax booster. And then I was talking to Mike Carrera about his encounter and he said, oh, I was just given an anthrax booster unprompted. This was like months after.

[Jesse]

And this is like a prophylactic where if you came across anthrax, presumably you'd have the immune defense for it or something. It's like a Covid booster but for anthrax. Like.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And then I, I made that connection. I was in North Carolina sitting across from Jonathan Wigant, sharing a meal and he's talking about his encounter. I love Jonathan Wigan, by the way, one of the greatest guys I know. And he talks about, just completely unprompted. Yeah. And you know, afterwards we were given an anthrax booster. Speaking of Jonathan Wigan, I cannot express to you how much I, I dislike the fellow Marine sergeants he was with during his encounter. They threw him under the bus and sold him out.

[Jesse]

Well, let's get into the core details because you just came out with a video maybe a couple months ago. That or few months ago. That was one of the best, I think most important, just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan Want and. Yeah, what a fascinating story. So. Yeah, tell us about it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Jonathan Want, USMC Lance Corporal 1997, sent to Peru. Operation Laser Strike, which is a counternarcotics Operation Narco plane. Shoot them down, get drugs out of Colombia Bolivia, Peru. Entering USC airspace, he is told at one point that there's a down friendly or, or foreign plane, no big deal. So he and a troop of eight to 10 Marines, including Sergeant Adkins and Sergeant Allen's trek down to where this aircraft crashed. After a combination of driving and trekking they encounter a, a clearing which in a basically a cliff face. There's an enormous egg shaped, teardrop shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. The craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back. Weygant guesses to this day this was due to a Peruvian Hawk MIM23 missile system. There is seemingly a field around the craft. You know, it's kind of silvery metallic, but around the craft there's this swirling field similar to what Dylan Borland said about the lava like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft. This was a purplish greenish like oil on water. The mother of pearl effect. There was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down and there seemed to be a hatch open with what appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers. This was part of.

[Jesse]

Did it look like a human arm? Did it look like a reptile, gray alien?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It just looked like an arm hanging.

[Jesse]

Out with four fingers.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And this was actually one of the things that Steven Greer cut out of their year 2000 interview.

[Jesse]

Why did he cut anything out of this guy's testimony?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

At first I thought it was. He was vindictive against James Fox, you know, our mutual friend and excellent filmmaker with a great upcoming project, James Fox. He, he filmed the Way Gantt interview for Stephen King Greer. And so initially when I found the RAW files, which even the RAW files on Greer's DPI archive are still chopped up, you can find one part where James Fox asks a question and it quickly cuts. So initially I thought Greer just cut out James Fox's part. But it seems more dubious than that if part of W's testimony was excluded. But that's par for the course for Greer, right? We can think of Brad Sorenson in the 1988 Fluxliner incident at the Norton Air Force Base Air show, where in 1990 Brad Sorenson admitted to. Absolutely. Aviation Week in Space Technology Senior Editor Bill Scott. The entire incident was real. Everything happened. The Flux Liners, the copycat vehicles and. And Greer and his cronies stonewalled this interview.

[Jesse]

So crazy. Yeah, it's. If you really want disclosure and you're talking about, about a guy who, you know, shows up, you know, at Edwards. It was Edwards Air Force. It Was Norton Air Force Base closed.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Down now near air Force Plant 42.

[Jesse]

That's right. And, and then he's shown some back of the house show and then he sees an alien reproduction.3 Alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever. And you see video of it. Like that's, that's such an important testimony.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And, and then he's sort of like, you know, goes dark and he's like, you know, really mean to all the UFO researchers.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He's giving me so many death threats it's crazy.

[Jesse]

So then you have jerk. Stephen Greer is the one guy who's sitting on like, you know, like really crazy, you know, testimony from him and he.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What?

[Jesse]

Where is that? Like did you destroy it or like I don't.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It was.

[Jesse]

Where's the evidence?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So I think this was found between 2017 and 2020. 2019 or 2020.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

One of Greer's cronies, a pretty respected and famous researcher compiled a bunch of documents on this and I think Pride, the interview from Bill Scott and they just, him and the Greer team just put this all in a PDF, non ocr so non searchable PDF and just post it it on the DPI archive as Norton Air Force Base internal. So this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to, to Greer's public archive. This is like a 200 page PDF and I, I read through the whole thing because I was doing a. I, I was absorbing as much McCandlish as much.

[Jesse]

Is there audio associated with it? Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's a written thing from Bill Scott, but there's also handwritten notes between Bill Scott.

[Jesse]

So they did publish this? No, they didn't publish it. No, they just made it internal. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I tried to reach out to Bill Scott but he had a heart attack, so he's in poor health.

[Jesse]

Oh geez.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So I haven't heard from him. I'd like to.

[Jesse]

He's like Aviation Week.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And Space Technology senior editor. And of course I've, I've tried to kind of run a bit of a gambit with Brad saying hey, I like I've seen this interview. I know you've, you've seen it. I just get more death threats. But you know, but, but the, the circling back to Wegant because I, that's so. I think that's so productive in how we can talk about crash retrieval teams. But it just seems like every now and then Greer weirdly obfuscates some data, including critical testimony. I mean biologics being present at Jonathan Want's retrieval encounter is critical because as he Gets close to the craft as it's dripping this clear, viscous, syrupy like liquid. He feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help, which I, I can't imagine the type of PTSD that would give a man, a sentient being, like begging for help, but also trying to calm you down.

[Jesse]

What did he do?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, he's getting closer and closer to the craft because he's the only one that gets near it. And then Sergeant Allen and sergeant Atkins kind of jerk him back to reality, screaming at him and tell him to, you know, get the heck out of there. Sergeant Allen and sergeant Atkins, I won't say which one of them, but one of them I emailed from my UAP gmail.com email. It's, it doesn't have my name or anything like that. Asking for comment. And they responded, hello, my full name. So they're trying to be like a, trying to big bro me a little bit, be a little bit intimidating, saying like, I know who you are.

[Jesse]

They doxed you in their response.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, correct. So that's not cool. And that's why I don't like him. And they've also thrown him under the bus. One of them specifically said, oh no, Jonathan, want's just crazy. It's just not true. But the, the most important part in my opinion is when Weigant and the other Marines leave the clearing, they're immediately intercepted by between eight and 12 operators in all black US army helmets. That's kind of an important detail. All black, no insignia, no name tags. Held at gunpoint whilst these men are being detained, two US Army CH47 helicopters land. Out of the helicopters come a team in MOP gear. Mission oriented protective posture. Just think hazmat gear. You know, if you think Back to the 1965 Kecksburg, Pennsylvania crash, all the witnesses on, on scene said they saw people in what they called moon suits arrive and. But these people are wearing DOE insignia and some of them have DOE rain jackets. Weygant tries to resist, he gets the crap beaten out of him and he's taken and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats of that he's going to be killed and all that stuff. But so that crash retrieval team, that is really important. The people in doe, that is highly likely the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team, DOE nest. DOE NEST is a doe, NNSA and nsa again is the DOE semi autonomous agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration Support Team. They're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBR&E, chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, high yield explosives, specifically dealing with nuclear stuff or around the world. This team has their own private jets, of course, which is also really weird detail. That guy I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the nttr has stated for some rapid reaction events they would hop on a little private jet. So the DOE NEST has their own private jets. DOE NEST derives its authority from where else? The 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. So DOE NEST operates under that authority. So they can kind of use the same classification systems to do. Do, you know, whatever the. The heck they want.

[Jesse]

So how do they. Because I think of OGA Office of Global Access as being this kind of rapid response team. Are they coordinating with OGA or logistics coordinators?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So think about like the NGA as a combat support agency. They're them in the nro. They're providing intelligence, actionable information and so forth. The CAA is just the coordinator. So in all likelihood. What?

[Jesse]

But this is before GA is under CIA.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And this is before the OGA existed. Right. But in all likelihood, let's say Jonathan W's encounter occurred in 2004.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just for mind exercise, the CIA OGA would have likely contracted the U.S. army 160th SOAR Nighthawks.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Specifically 1st Battalion, which is the U.S. army's basically helicopter regiment that supports JSOC operations to utilize their CH47s for this retrieval operation.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

OJ would have said, hey, we need this Nest team. Whether they're Nest or whether they're just retrieval operators using NEST and using the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement as a shield. We need those guys. And then they want would also coagulate and get the. The Tier 1 adjacent likely US Army Delta in this case, folks, to. To get to the retrieval scene.

[Jesse]

So then. Yeah. What ends up happening to want. So he's. He's basically beat up, he's put in isolation and. And then he's given an anthrax shot as you mentioned later.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then he's. Anything else sent back to Cherry Point.

[Jesse]

Uhhuh.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

After a while. Sergeant Atkins, Sergeant Allen get mad at him if they try and talk to him. The Marines treat him like crap. So he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him.

[Jesse]

Poor guy, man. So messed up. And you see it in his face.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Looks. He's haunted.

[Jesse]

He looks haunted. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So before we started recording and so forth, he was like trembling. It it still affects him deeply to this day to speak about.

[Jesse]

I can only imagine.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And it took, it took months to get him on camera. He does not, he does not want to be on camera. He lives a private life. He, he has a beautiful family. He works with rescue dogs a lot. Great guy, pure hearts and it's been terrible for him. So that DOE nest, though I think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material fii.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Transclassified for Nuclear Information and now nest. Yeah, I think NEST is likely used at abroad and CONUS and OCONUS outside conus Continental United States Retrieval Operations. The DOE and SLASH NNSA employ two other agencies I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations operations or passing recovered UFO materials between US national labs here in the continental United States. This would be DOE SRT Special Response Team which is sort of a federal unit, Federal Protective Force that has a rest on site authority within the the US These are the guys that safeguard nuclear material. These are the guys that safeguard SANDIA and national labs and then the doe, nsa, nnsa, OST or Office of Secure Transportation. These are the guys that drive the big rigs that train transport the the materials. Now the common thing between all three of these agencies, NEST, SRT and OST, these are not comprised of of of DoD employees. These are comprised of contractors. All three of them are comprised of contractors. For example, Sandia has designed the big rigs the OST uses. But that's not the point. The contractors involved are Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamo, Alamos, Raytheon and our former good friend now part of Amentum. E G and G. E G and G of course is, is the company that allegedly hired Bob Lazar to work out at area 51. S4EG and G was of course spearheaded by Donald Kerr, of course at the NRO and egn. One of the senior Special Projects guys is one of the people or Alfred o' Donnell is one of the individuals who told George Knapp that there were was a recovered saucer held held at an Area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the 1950s.

[Jesse]

And this is crazy because Alfred O' Donnell was also Annie Jacobson's source. And she goes on Lex Friedman and she goes. I was told on his deathbed, Alfred o' Donnell told me, you know, she was. That was a big source for her book Area 51, where she was basically given exclusive early access post Bob Lazar. Nobody really knew anything about Area 51. And she's saying that her source, Alfred O' Donnell tells her that. What did she say exactly about Roswell? That it was these like pro, you.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Know, progeria mangled twins from Joseph Mengele at the behest of Joseph Stalin.

[Jesse]

Once it was determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed and it had, you know, people inside of it. They were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens. The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about and if it was.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Possible for us to have the same program.

[Jesse]

This according to the source right now that source is Al o' Donnell, who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed, wired and fired 186 nuclear weapons.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And that's harder to believe than aliens.

[Jesse]

Yeah, right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

To be quite honest.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's listening to George not talk about this. You can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent because he has.

[Jesse]

The same source as her and, and Albert ODonnell told him that it's. And he also has UFO alien.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That source there was. George Knapp stated that there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of EG and G. Edgarton German House and, and Greer for one of them to meet with him. Dick D'. Amato. You know, Dick D' Amato of the. I think he was, he was SSCI. Right. He was kind of in charge of probing SAPs and stuff and Alfred O' Donnell to talk about recovered UFOs. And this was sometime in the 90s. And when they got to this meeting, the subject of UFOs was off the table. And this was the turning point for Al o'. Donnell. He would never speak about it again. What's, what's, what's really interesting though is that it's okay not to be perfect with fine finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help.

[Jesse]

Did you know you can get matched.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

With credit cards on the app?

[Jesse]

Some cards are labeled no ding decline.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no ding decline cards won't hurt your credit scores if you aren't initially approved. Initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores experience. Al O' Donnell apparently said to George Knapp that in 19, the early 1950s, 1954 to be exact, that the recovered saucer was kind of Transferred into Area, Area 51. Adjacent site. Conventionally, you would think that that is because Area 51 was supposedly built in 1954, established in 1954, even though there's strong arguments that underground sites near Area 51 existed far before that with the borax mines. I'm of a different mind. I think that CRAFT was moved in 1954 because the 1954 Atomic gave expanded powers to government owned contractor operated laboratories like Sandia and so forth to house the craft. And thus 1954 resembles a turning point when DOE, FFRDCs and NNSA which was established in the year 2000 started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves. Especially on the the Nevada Test Site in NTTR Nevada Test and Training Range. There's a series of photographs in the national archives ranging from 1972 to at that time 1992 before Martin Marietta purchased Sandia back in 1993.

[Jesse]

But.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And now it exists like 2012 but it was 20,000 plus EG&G Nevada Test Site and Sandia operations all across the Nevada Test Site. So many photos of underground stuff, weird computer control rooms. So that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw. Saw a lot of these sorts of projects being moved into government owned contractor operated hands, which that's further supported by. There is a former New Mexico State Rep. J. Andrew Kistner. This is like a proto Grush. Nobody speaks about this and it's insanely interesting. And I can speak about. So 2002 or 2004. Second annual crash retrieval Conference. Linda Moulton Howe says hey, I'm gonna present this testimony. I personally don't think of her as too credible of a source, so I wouldn't.

[Jesse]

And she's broken a lot of stories.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

She's broken a lot of stories.

[Jesse]

Right, right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But with some sensationalism sometimes I contacted J. Andrew Kistner myself to confirm if he did this or not.

[Jesse]

Still alive.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Correct.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Correct. He doesn't really want to talk.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk. They.

[Jesse]

And he was a congressman or senator.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He was a. He was a rep for New Mexico.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And so in 1994, 1995 he conducted a series of interviews with firsthand legacy people all across the board. Office of Naval Research, Air Force, etc And basically starting in 1947 there was some crash craft. Vanne of our Bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth.

[Jesse]

And he says all this?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes, it's crazy. Numerous scientific agencies were involved. The AFSWP, which would later become Dittra, was involved. And that in the early 1950s there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to government owned contractor operated hands to be custodians. So that's one of the biggest interesting things in J. Andrew Kissner's testimony that puts a lot of faith in my opinion of him as he talks about this, which comports strongly with my idea that national lab started to take over these materials and house them in the 1950s. Indeed, J. Andrew Kissner allegedly in 1950, 1995 told other New Mexico state Rep. Stephen Schiff about this. Stephen Schiff launched a giant probe into Roswell and there's a GAO audit and an investigation into Roswell where apparently the Air Force had lost all of their files into Roswell. So that's a really interesting rabbit hole.

[Jesse]

Stephen Schiff I think is on record saying like complaining about.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes, yes. He says that the records were like rampant or like inappropriately destroyed. All that good stuff.

[Jesse]

So crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It seems like the mid-1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause UFO legacy program to reorganize themselves to hide behind this Special Access program Oversight Committee. Special or senior review group.

[Jesse]

Makes sense. Interesting. So that was when this reorg happened?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

1950S.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And so yeah, again we talked about why the national labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff. I've talked about it before. It's another individual that needs to go further vetting because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that begs more questions. But he has stated he has worked under the Y12 complex which houses Oak Ridge on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of tuberculosis covered non human saucer craft.

[Jesse]

Whoa. And this is a current guy that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

You'Re in touch with as of 18 months ago. Wow, 18 months. 24 months. Like within the last one.

[Jesse]

And he's saying that, that Oak Ridge houses this program that does like you know, kind of material analysis on, on UFO materials.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. So thing things further need to be vetted with him. So again, this, you know, if you're listening to this interview, this shouldn't be the takeaway. This should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already. Like hey, maybe this is possibly true, but there's some interesting, interesting stuff there to recover discs. He states that Miter and Patel are the two primary folks involved with this and that the DOE OICI Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence is the, are the people that kind of run the show.

[Jesse]

Have you tried to stress test what he said or Corroborated through independent channels.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

A lot of it checks out and a lot of, a lot. Some of him is a little weird.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So I think at the very least he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the Y12 complex on these stuff. Specifically Doe O. I see guys. But I, I do think there's truth to the story that under the y12 complex there exists this legacy program. What's interesting, he says that this program studies the skin of craft. We've started to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non human craft. Skin of craft? Why skin of craft? I think there's a, there's going to be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in UFO crash retrieval, specifically eggs, the egg shaped craft, whether unmanned or manned, is that there's seemingly layers of, of, of skin on the craft. Inner layers and outer layers separating like the bulkhead from the, the outer layer of the craft. My mind is drawn to a, the NTTR operator I spoke of. He spoke about a, a cracked egg once that he was on retrieval mission for. And there was layers like a Russian nesting doll. There was layers of skin under the craft. I think Back to the 1948 testimony of one Albert Bruce Collins, who claimed to be a metallurgist working on, who had some exposure to exotic stuff at the University of California, Berkeley. This guy. Further stuff needs to be, further investigation needs to be done. But he disclosed to Tim Cooper and Leonard Stringfield in 1990, shortly before his death, I think on New Year's Day 1991 or something like that. But he gave a lot of interesting insights into stuff like Project Twinkle, which was of course a Sandia Bay Z Division investigation into green fireballs over New Mexico.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Which Lincoln La Paz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth.

[Jesse]

And I think there was some obstruction there as far as the Project Twinkle records, you know, being being shown because.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Lincoln La Paz, who is a, you know, kind of a University of New Mexico meteor export expert, not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background, came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track, you know, plumes of, of, you know, atomic detonations and were, you know, happening at atomic sites across the US and they would turn on and off and they seem to be intelligently moving around. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then the Air Force recommended that the findings of Project Twinkle not be disclosed because there was no natural explanation for this.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And course we had the Robertson panel and all that, all that stuff that happened thereafter. But Albert Brooks, Bruce Collins stated that in 1948 at the University of California, Berkeley, he saw a lowboy style trailer that was carrying a recovered vehicle. It was an egg shaped craft that seemed to be cracked. There seemed to be layers of skin and like separated bulkheads and almost inside like a visibly light compartment, sort of like an egg yolk. But that, that skin, those layers is very intriguing. Everybody, including our good friends, friend, one of the best people I know, Chris Ramsey, is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower. Yeah, I actually think there's a lot of validity to that and I think that might be legit. But there back in 2024 there was another sort of Reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I, I think is worthy of revisiting. I think the title of the post now deleted was just Ex OGA Contractor. OGA is not Office of Global Access here. It's Government Other government agency. Implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor or stuff. This guy was in the 24th, which is a Tier 1 unit in JSOC from the Air Force. He talks about after his service in the STS like 16 years or so. He is just doing contracting work for an oga, probably the CIA or something. And he staged oconus outside the United States. And I'll send you the link for this because I really recommend people read it. It's a really juicy, really juicy testimony that doesn't go overboard, which is interesting. And he sees his old troop cheap troop chief. There's a couple C130s that fly up to the base. It's all hush hush, nobody talks about it. He sees these people just get into US Army Ch47s, likely 1/60 soar for rapid reaction teams and then no talk about this completely hush hush. About six to ten hours later that team returns and he sees his old troop chief. This is very strange to this, this testimony, this poster because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia doing a fantasy football draft days prior. The troop chief looks super disturbed, super tired, a little out of it, but won't really say what happened. The, the poster of this kind of pokes around. What were these guys doing? The term crash retrieval came up and he was kind of chewed out, reamed for it. A year later he meets up with his troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and says what had happened. He was on a parallel, not directly jsoc, but a parallel tier one unit that was siloed under Its own umbrella authority, not responsible for traditional SOCOM channels, that was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles. In the span of four years, he had only done three retriev retrieval incidents, two of which were completely unknown to him. He had no idea what they were. But this new one really shook him to the core. The team was taken to a retrieval site and there they found an egg embedded in mud. The egg. There was no, like brush fire. There was no, you know, explosive residue. It seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space and this egg had landed in. And this large silvery metallic egg, I think larger than the size of a couple SUVs, was cracked. And inside. What else is there but layers seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used. What's interesting is this, this guy said the air felt soupy. The air felt soupy. Recall when Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley. He felt the, like the. He felt like charged air, right?

[Jesse]

Yeah. So it feels like there's felt like thunder. It felt like a. Like electricity, like run through his body or something.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just like Jonathan Want said, the air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft. And like, I didn't know what to do. They're just there to secure the lz. But it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say, sob souls on board. But it's just a. It's a really tame testimony that I encourage people to. To look at it. It comports with what I know about manned unmanned A retrievals. It's very interesting.

[Jesse]

So fascinating. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, there's so many places to take this. But you mentioned in, in 2003, the OGA, you know, under the CIA gets created the Office of Global Access. And I think there's a Daily Mail article that outlines, you know, Chris Sharp. Yeah, Chris Sharp again. Okay, there you go. All over the world, you know, they're kind of, you know, keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes. And, you know, I think there's a rumor in. Because you mentioned, you know, if this was. If the Wigan Crash Were after 2003, JSAC, JSOC would have been involved and the army would have been involved. I believe there's a rumor of a dog fight between Lockheed Crash Retrieval team and a JSAW crash retrieval team in 2004. Competing over, like, trying to retrieve.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Sentinels of ether, huh? Jake Barber Classic. I. I mean, I've. I've heard that that checks out the details of it and why certain elements and sentinels of ether which was like a Romana clay written by Jake Barber under a pseudonym.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

To try and trick dots her in an intriguing play. I think there's details there that are more important. For example, I think the location of Koyame, Mexico is really important. I wouldn't be surprised if there's like explain that.

[Jesse]

So just context for the odds, basic context. So Jake Barber obviously, you know, very important, you know, UFO whistleblower came out earlier this year through Ross Colthart, me, a couple other people and said that he retrieved an egg shaped craft on this sort of, you know, generic range, sort of, you know, California test range. Did you see this at. I saw it, absolutely. What did it look like? It's probably 20ft plus or minus, I don't know, 10% from my point of view. You know, I was 150ft from. It had 150 foot long line that night in a couple of different instances. Well, I guess one was an egg, one was a, you know, an eight gon craft. Said a lot of interesting things. Also clearly was holding back, you know, in a lot of ways and but one of the interesting things he said is to get initially get some information out through Dotser, you know, which is, you know, you need to clear everything you let out through the DoD to let it out. He said he sort of tricked them by writing a sci fi, you know, book. And I think the first chapter is out and it's Sentinels of Ether. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of hardcore UFO researchers have speculated on this, you know, first chapter of this book because they think a lot of details might comport with the truth.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, the most interesting thing part to me is that I, I think there's a message there that these retrieval assets, the guys that way Gant encountered, the guys that Roger Castle encountered and the guys that Michael Herrera encountered are not afraid to conduct blue on blue violence. These will, these guys will kill American servicemen if need be for, for their mission directive. I think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe Jake Barber is trying to bring attention to. If this is is not a real event, which it very well could be. Additionally, I think there's interesting data there to suggest that, you know, maybe there's an underground US rapid reaction facility in Kame, Mexico in the north part of me. And then maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains or built underground and there's various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to obfuscate these sites?

[Jesse]

Yeah, well, I mean look, you have to look no further than like Cheyenne Mountain Complex. You know, we have. And then you, you always bring up, you know, the solder, you know, deep underground military bases. You have a great video on this subject. That's not a conspiracy. Like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the US we have underground facilities.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Deep underground military bases absolutely exist. They have been a huge focus of the U.S. dOD and U.S. army Corps of Engineers since 1948 when we took a bunch of Nazi scientists, including Xavier Dorsch, head of the TOT organization, to work under an Air Material Command underground underground laboratory and underground systems project. Deep underground military bases are extremely real. You have to look no further than the Lockheed Helendale or Northrop Tejan RCS facilities which were built primarily underground to hide from Soviet ISR in our denied airspace. Yeah, these places are built under. Additionally, if you're housing a UFO or just a conventional SAP or interesting technology or even like a recovered Russian mig, you're not going to keep that in a hangar, you're not going to keep that above ground, you're going to keep that in an underground installation. And there's, there's numerous studies by the US Army Corps of Engineers dating back to the 50s about supplying these with a nuclear reactor, where to get rid of some of the silt and dig out and where to put the excess dirt. There's, there's data on how to supply, you know, years of food and water. There's, there's interesting parallels to the Nazis and like the Regan worm logger in Poland, which was essentially an underground city with its own functioning train system. This is a very real thing. I think the biggest question is, is there a network of maglev trains or similar things connecting such installations? And I would say that there is a very strong argument that can be made. Early on there were possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented in Nazi Germany under the Todd organization that would connect Berlin to France and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like five minutes. There's the 1972 RAND theoretical study, the very high speed transit system which talks about connecting similar places. There's maglev systems. Even Lockheed Martin was super into maglev stuff in the year 2000s. And then of course you, you can start to rationalize this.

[Jesse]

Maglev levitating magnets.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Sort of like, like super fast high.

[Jesse]

Speed bullet train style tech.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And then, and then like tunnel boring machines, tbm. So how these things could be used by the Bureau of Reclamation as offshoot programs to start coring out these, these tunnels. I implore people go look at those San NTS SANDIA lab photos and just look at the, how large some of these underground tunnels were cored out under the Nevada Test Site just for experiments, just for various technical experiments.

[Jesse]

And so many of these whistleblower testimonies. Like a guy you broke who then we did a show with later is Randy Anderson talks about being at Naval Service warfare crane. He's taken down in some elevator, goes deep below, you know, the ground and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to what is it? Off world or other. Off world Technique Technologies Division sees a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and a levitating sphere. Yeah, it's fascinating. And a lot of, a lot of stories include that include going deep underground. It seems to.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Seems like what frustrates me about Randy specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like oh and kind of memeing on him, trolling him, saying why would there be a sign that says off world Technologies Division? I'd be remiss if I didn't show you this.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

At the, at the Dugway Proving Ground. The Dugway Proving Ground is the area of experimental land is larger than the U.S. state of Rhode Island. It's, it's like the NTTR where it's one of the largest non contiguous airspaces for special projects in the entire United States. It houses two major range and test facility bases. The, the Utah Test and Training Range uttr. The Dugway Proving Ground houses the southern range of the UTTR and the West Desert Test center out of army atec. By the way, if, if, if, if anybody's listening who's interested in Battelle, go look at who spearheads the west desert test center. Mr. Ryan W. Harris, who has a background of working for projects for the Dittra and Patel. So go start looking at that a little bit interesting.

[Jesse]

But at the West Battelle co manages Dugway Proving Grounds.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They do a lot of work there on, on CBR and E stuff, specifically biological stuff. That's why there's so many stories about specifically biologics being held at, at Dugway Proving Ground. And speaking of this is what is, is this is in the cafeteria at the West Desert Test center. And I'll send you that so you can put it.

[Jesse]

Yeah, we'll pop it up. Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They do this stuff right in your face.

[Jesse]

That's so crazy. And this looks so realistic too. And he got the three fingers. Yeah, really trippy. So I can't tell if it has a. If there's a thumb there. If it's just three fingered. Wow.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

As far as Dougway goes, there's. There's one guy I've spoken to and he's in my Dugway video who's had a firsthand encounter at Dugway. Probably Proving ground goes.

[Jesse]

Really?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Goes by the name firsthand encounter with a Bing or with a.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

No, with a craft. Craft undergoing. Undergoing various testing mechanisms. So he was a contractor for. I can't. Oh gosh, the name's escaping me. But not like a, not like a Lockheed Martin just like a standard contractor that does operations and maintenance at, at Dugway. And in the Avery section which is right by the 308th Range Squadron, I want to say right by their airstrip at the Doug Way Proving Ground. He's doing electrical meter reading and he go inside a facility and within that facility which is out in the middle of nowhere on Avery, there's a, a craft in a very. In what's seemingly going. In a state of disassembling at the bottom area of this craft that looks like a, a symmetrical top across its X axis. There's a like what seems to be like a panel or a part removed where there's like an inverted cone. It kind of reminds me of the, the like the reactor Bob kind of Bob Lazar kind of talks about. But he's immediately held at gunpoint by indus e personnel and taken to you know, another area, ditto, where he's kind of debriefed and threatened. And since that he met with one of the chief scientists at Dugway. This is a guy who has a very real name. I'm, I've, I know the name now and I'm, I'm trying to track this guy down. But this is a real person who informed this individual Ms. Of the massive stiff or subterranean facility below Dougway, including the, the specific entrance which I'll, I'll send you a picture of, which is just west east of Granite Peak, which has all sorts of weird radar rays by the 388th Range Squadron. And to north west of Dugway German Village. It's just a tiny, it's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere. And apparently this is an elevator down if, if anybody. Because it's in vogue right now. If anybody's watching Stranger Things in the newest season of stranger things where 11 is taken down to the secret lab, the secret facility. It's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the desert. Similar thing. What's an interesting detail is that for apparently for above ground testing, a bunch of porta potties are sometimes times move to this region. Super weird detail because another contractor I spoke to out at Dugway who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022, I want to say would talk about. It's so strange sometimes in the middle of nowhere in Dugway, there will just be a bunch of random porta potties. So it seems like there's this weird connection. Maybe there's above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets that of course, you know, facilities are brought out for people. This guy, the second contractor, he maintained relationships with a bunch of quote unquote great beards at Dugway. He guessed these guys are Battelle, but they don't wear, they don't say, hello, my name is Jeffrey, I'm from Battelle Memorial Institute or Lockheed Martin. One his, his gray beard babysitter who would kind of have to walk him through, would always appear fatigued after sometimes he'd meet him and this guy would, when he would appear fatigued, this person, this friend of mine would say, hey, you know what happened? Why are you so tired? He would say, oh, we had the triangles out again last night. And so this guy was saying that they were, would stay out all night doing triangle testing.

[Jesse]

Whoa. Crazy. And you trust this guy, the, the, the Ms.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Guy who saw the craft? Absolutely, yeah. The second guy who's a contractor, I don't really have a reason not to to trust him yet. He has supplied me with his photo ID badge of his contract time at Dugway, shown me direct evidence that he worked out there. I've, I have no reason not to trust that guy.

[Jesse]

Wow. And, and Dugway for just basic context for the audience. So it's in, it's in Utah. Right. And if they call it Area 52 and it's sort of dubbed that 52.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But I don't like when people call it Area 52 because Area 52 is the Tonopah test range.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Tonopah test range is literally named Area 52.

[Jesse]

Oh, interesting. And then Doug Way, are there rumors that some assets were moved from Area 51 in the 90s there starting in.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

1990S because there was a large article, I can't remember, it might have been Pop Sci or Pop Mechanics. It was a huge expose like Area 51 and how assets might have been moved over to Area 52, this mysterious new place in Dugway. What's Interesting about that article is I have some pictures of of it in one of my videos. The article has a bunch of pictures of like, I think like either SR71 or F117A nighthawk, but also has a sticky note on it that says like call Bobby Ray Inman. It's super. It's a super weird meta thing.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But even like Edgar Fouch, whose primary testimony in 1998 revolves around the TR3B, talks about, hey, you know, a lot of projects were moved out to Doug Way proving out it makes sense. More less high profile. But I, but what's weird to me is that the Nevada Test and Training Range would have better infrastructure to house such programs.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

As far as I understand there's numerous sites across the NTTR that can house craft, underground facilities, even helicopters, possibly even hangar bays built into the side of mountains or floors.

[Jesse]

Do you think that some of these defense bases are co located deliberately with. And this is going to sound really trippy but like natural portals or something. And the reason I ask this is because Area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada Test Site or next to the Nevada Test Site. Nevada Test Site was the site of the most domestic atomic tests in the early 50s. If you read, you know, Robert Hastings, UFOs and nukes where UFOs show up most, it's around nuclear sites. All of the first crashes are around either high power radar or nuclear sites. You know, Roswell, site of the, you know, largest nuclear stockpile. While in the US there's an emergency meeting in 1949 I think at Killeen, you know that Robert Hastings also writes about between basically, you know, I think Army Counterintel, you know, Air Force, Office of Special investigations, you know, CIA, like they're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear sites. And then you have the Jake Barber testimony where it's like there's some sort of mental connection, you know, with the UFO. And so if I were studying UFOs I would look for places that are weird to begin with like Skinwalker Ranch. And maybe Skinwalker Ranch is like the limited hangout version of this, you know. And I would put my defense stuff there and I would try to engage in the weird UFO shit where it's already kind of happening.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Jake Barber talk about some of the like light orbs or weird non really physically identifiable crafty over the range with like, like almost phase into mountains or like disappear in rock formations?

[Jesse]

Yes. And you have Ross Colthart doing his Investigative research at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. We have all this weird stuff. I think it's like supposedly associated with the university but you have all these kind of armed guards there, you know, and it's. And you. And they. And multiple people in the area see the crafts going into this mountain and Sentinels of ether talks about that too. Jake Barber's books. So I'm wondering if there's this weird co. Location of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place. Let's study it and instantiate it, you know and, and, and, and house it in some official defense capacity.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, I think, I think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely. And they probably all are a thing. You house these sites by already weird locations with activity. You know, maybe if that 4chan whistleblower is to be believed. And there's places within the Bahamas that. That large hamburger shaped mothership that 3D prints to spec houses. Gosh, I don't know.

[Jesse]

Maybe they say the Bahamas.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think. Yeah, like Bermuda I think is an area frequency. Well, gosh, it would make sense to have.

[Jesse]

Well you have magnetic anomalies there. Autech is in the Bahamas. Weapons testing sense to have that there. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then that's. That's one thing that's probably true. Two that's probably true. Put these installations in the middle of nowhere so you can bring the triangles out where people aren't around for Hundreds of miles and 300 hide stuff in plain sight. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there are access to stiffs SAP FS that are literally in corporate parks or shopping centers.

[Jesse]

Interesting. Do you have any, anything specific there or that you're thinking about?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Not specifics I want to talk about, but I just, I wouldn't be surprised if you know in the future if, if more locations are spoken about that some of these places are in like in plain sight.

[Jesse]

Do you think there's anything near LAX.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Maybe? Well, yeah, yeah, because it's near like it's very close to the Antelope Valley. And in Los Angeles there's numerous FFRDCs, numerous locations and DoD defense laboratories. I would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there.

[Jesse]

How many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangers across the United States?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know. If you look to the. What Parbour spoke about before he went public, he would say over his specific range, one to two a year. That number seems high for me. It seems. That seems quite high. Maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative Vehicles to test their hardness to the dog whistle and the weird.

[Jesse]

Or one to two a year might include just random material like a whole.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Craft or intake from other locations that they h. Can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there.

[Jesse]

And Hal put off, I think stated a number on Joe Rogan. I think he literally like 12 to 15. I think something like that, that, I think that's low. That seems a little low to me too.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

40 to 50. Okay, maybe 50 to 100. Because I do think there's validity to the US has constructed offensive weaponry against UFOs. You know, if we look at the Aztec crash, a case you, Chris Ramsey and me also all think extremely highly of.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

One of the prevailing theories is that the lash up radar network which was constructed over New Mexico to protect against Soviet bomber attacks, which by the way, J. Andrew Kissner spoke about high powered radar facilities messing with the UFOs and in his 1994 disclosures. But one of the prevailing Aztec theories is that these super high powered really weird radar networks there might have been high intensive microwave systems that messed with the craft and brought it down. And then in Fast forward to 1983, I think there's an argument that can be made that in the Strategic Defense Initiative or Star wars program under Ronald Reagan that the lethality and target hardening program or the particle beam weapons program were meant to be space based systems that utilized microwave weaponry to, to shoot down UFOs.

[Jesse]

Well, this was the weirdest part of the Malm Grin story that I, you know, again, I hold him in super high esteem and I, I think there's a lot of weirdness around. I feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out, to be honest. They changed his Wikipedia page.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah, that was ugly.

[Jesse]

The, the blog post was like we asked XYZ person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again. Which is like you're talking about like this knock who like is. Was clearly like I don't doubt his connection connections for a second.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right.

[Jesse]

The guy was connected at extremely elite levels. He knew a lot of very interesting people. And I think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in. Yeah. So I think that was kind of, kind of, you know, bs. So. But the weirdest part of Malm Grim's testimony, which didn't even occur directly with me, he was apparently again, final few days on his deathbed speaking to Pippa, his daughter, and he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving or one of the Surviving alien beings from Roswell, which is fascinating. Like, like a recorded interview with this being and that the being suggested that we use like high power radar to take out crafts.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And then you get into these weird like are we in some sort of like are we being used in, in some sort of like as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extraterrestrial beings. And he was involved, I believe in the Strategic Defense Initiative. Yeah. And, and if you look at Bluegill triple prime, it was kind of a proto SDI Strategic Defense Initiative thing that he was doing. It was missile defense. Missile defense was this big issue at the time because you couldn't really kinetically like, you know, we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like, like, you know, like, like Russia, Soviet missiles. And so you know, in that case it was like this X ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles. Really interesting. There's this like Rand Corporation paper I think kind of scoping it out before they actually executed on it in 63.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And SAIC was up to the gills working on, on those programs as well. For sdi.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. They were one of the largest contractors. Right. For sdi.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What's interesting to me is that there, there are some theories out there that the actual idea for SDI origina Eisenhower, not Reagan. And then of course what was established under Eisenhower. Well, the nro. You know, there's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the NRO up there with their taking over the CORONA satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites, they immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Well now you have Beatrice V Royale coming out this peer reviewed paper. It's. This is wild to me because it's like you academia has nothing to say and kudos to you know, Brian Keating who's actually usually kind of more on the anti UFO side. But he's like, you know, this has to be contended with. You have Sabina Hossenfeld. There are a few people with real credentials and you know, larger platforms saying Beatrice Villarreal, who's Stockholm University, you know, astronomer with actually a physics background as well. She. The Palomar plates. Palomar is this observatory in California and it was the most prominent observatory in use in the 50s between 49 and 57. Pre Sputnik going up into space. You have over 100,000 transients, light reflecting objects. It's insane and nobody has a good debunk to this day, you know. And it's peer reviewed.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And isn't there data that Donald Menzel and the Menzel, the Menzel plates, he was one of the ones kind of stripping some of these plates out.

[Jesse]

Not only is there like that a rumor that is from a book by Dorrit Hoffman, Flight, who became a respected astronomer in her own right, was at Harvard with Donald Mazel and writes about this. And by the way, Donald Menzel not only held extremely high clearances in just about every agency you could name, he was rumored to be Majestic 12, I believe Kennedy, while he was at Harvard had an interest in astrophysics. And so he had some relationship with Don Menzel. But Don Menzel was also head of the. And I always botch this, but the, the, the earliest version of nist. So it's like the, the Bureau of like, Standards in the US So it was like, like, you know, the, the, the, the organization that like creates like the, the, you know, encryption standards and like, you know, like the, you know, decides that we're not going on the metric system or whatever. Like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of. And he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable. Dort Halflite. So yeah, it's weird. And there were only like, there weren't that many observatories in, you know, at the time that were even functioning. And so I think if you get one other observatory to do like, if it's, if it's pretty correlated, they have transients also from 1949, 1957, that line up with what Beatrice finds. To me that's like game over. Literally. Like you're talking about like light reflecting objects that aren't comets, meteoroids, you know, meteors, asteroids. It's not satellites. Like, she's clearly debunked all of that enough to like the, you know, average astronomer for them to like peer review it. And like, that seems like a, you know, an easy first order debunk that she's getting around. So this is crazy news and already.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The armchair debunk is to say it was Project Mogul Balloons.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Is that, did somebody say that? That's absurd. Yeah, they're just going back to the Roswell playbook, but. Oh my God.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, that, yeah, that Beatrice is doing the Lord's work right now.

[Jesse]

It's amazing.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Let me ask you this because you were talking about the number of crash that have. Craft. Yeah. Craft that have crashed.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

If you had to rank, let's just say your top five UFO crash approval events and, and Favorite. Most credible. Just. Yep, yeah, most credible. What would you say those are your top five?

[Jesse]

I would say, I would say put Aztec up there for sure. You have five witnesses. You have the lash up radar system. You have, you know, clear obstruction with Silas Newton and, and Leo Gabour and stuff. So, so I'd put that up there. I would now put Magenta up there and I don't know, you know, depending on when this comes out, I'll either tease here now or this will, will have come out already. But Marconi, who invented the radio. Yeah. This is like getting like Oppenheimer's like you know, offspring saying that he worked on UFOs. Marconi's grandson, I was able to track him down and get an interview. He's a prince, Prince Marconi. And he was like my grandfather was on cabinet Rs33, this cabinet with his Mussolini and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue. In 1933 the Italian government set up this group secret research 33 cabinet where Marconi was the chair, was the president.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And Enrico Fermi was the vice president.

[Jesse]

And they made some searches and studies on this phenomenon because 1933 they say that in Varese, north of Italy, there were some apparitions of so called UFOs in Magenta, Italy. Or do you know where specifically it's north east Italy, northeast. Yes, it's north of Milan in Lombardy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Between Lombardy and Venetian land.

[Jesse]

He couldn't go much deeper than that. But that's fascinating. You would now have archival and you know, stuff that corroborates Rs33 existing and you know, so, so I think the magic. And then you have David Grush who to me I hold in highest esteem when it comes to you. UFO whistleblower. So I would put Magenta up there. Now I really like the 90s Brookhaven crash. I think that's really fast.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

New York. Yeah, it's a great case.

[Jesse]

There's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that, that you know, I think is very strong. And then I, I, to me it pattern matches because they have cosmotron, the particle accelerator. I think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs. So I think that's up there for me. I would say Kecksburg with the Eric Walker, you know, connection I think is really, really fascinating. And then as a final one, I don't know, you know, I, I, I'm interested in the 1897 one. I don't think there's a ton of evidence. Yeah, I don't think there's a ton of evidence. I mean, that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction ones. I don't know. What would you say beyond. Beyond that?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Definitely Aztec and magenta. I'm right there with you. Kecksburg as well. I love the 1974 Koyame, New Mexico crash. There's not a ton of supporting evidence. Evidence. But the story there, if true, is very, very disturbing.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And also pretty interesting. Just the way that apparently the Dinette Report is a CIA directed, like, logistics plan, like the OGA would do to gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the craft, as well as providing overhead intelligence of the Mexican team trying to get the craft. That's a great case. Apparently the Mexican team was either killed by a CBR or by a, like, leak within the craft or the Americans killed them, which is far more likely, in my opinion. Yeah, maybe that ties over in. The sentinels of Ether will kill other.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Soldiers in Koyame, Mexico.

[Jesse]

Wow. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You might have been writing about that cryptically. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. By the way, I'm gonna go with five as we get. Because I think. Yes. Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I was gonna say. Wait.

[Jesse]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's a ton of rich stories alive.

[Jesse]

Like, that's rare. I'm thinking about, like, one through four. You don't have anybody alive talking about their retrieval like Wigan. I mean, that seems like super. You have a person who was part of the retrieval, and then. You know, I think that the Jake Barber thing is really interesting as well. I just. I want more details. Right. I wish he could. I wish he could have shared more.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He said he's held back more than he said, which is frustrating. But as another one, I'd throw in Kingman, of course, with Dr. Wang.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah. Kingman. Kingman's a. I would put that up there, too.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And how Steinman writes about Wang also being involved with the Aztec crash and how Wang is this figure that, you know, you can never really track down besides some. Right. PAT stuff. He died pretty early on. What an. What an incredible.

[Jesse]

It's. It's. It's. That's an amazing story. So you have our operation Upshot, Knole, Knot Hole, which was a test in 1953. I think it was Nevada test site. Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Or Arizona.

[Jesse]

It was Arizona.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes.

[Jesse]

I thought it was Nevada, but the crash ended up occurring in Kingman. I'm pretty sure.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think you're right. Yeah. It occurred just.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it was close, but. Yeah. And then I was like, are you Arthur Stancil.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yep. Who was. Who has records to show him at right, Pat. Yeah, right. Airfield at the time and Operation Upshot.

[Jesse]

Knothole and Operation Upshot not always there. And they were testing, like, I believe part of Operation Upshot Knothole was, like, how the surrounding environment would get affected by these detonations.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It would blast nukes from artillery.

[Jesse]

Again, it's crazy. And it was like, surrounding neighborhoods. What happened? It was, like, really crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That was about the time we'd. We'd blow up atomic weapons and send in army regiments right after the, the blast.

[Jesse]

So nuts, man. So, so, yeah. So he is then, like, was it like blindfolded and he's like, he's like, drives like into Kingman, Arizona, and then he sees, like a little being in a, in a, in a cot or something.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, it's like a makeshift tent that. There's a tiny little brownish bean, possibly charred and mangled because he was sent in to do ballistic trajectory analysis.

[Jesse]

That's right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area. But the craft itself damaged.

[Jesse]

And the craft itself, I think, looked like two pans, like, fused together. And, and so. Arthur Stanzel. Yeah. On record at right, Pat. And then here's what's really interesting. Eric Henry Wing is this sort of famed guy who's head of Special Projects at. Right. Right. Airfield. And I believe he studied in Vienna with Victor Schauberger.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes, he did.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really interesting. This famous kind of Austrian, you know, naturalist who believed in this impeller propulsion system and out of his own flag flying saucer designs. And there's this question of, like, did Eric Henry Wang exist? And you have some evidence that maybe he did exist. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, yes, he. No, he. He existed. He existed. If you look through the dtic, the Defense Technical Information center, you can find actual. You can find old engineering documents with Eric Henry Wang on it. But we might have a new kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of Eric Henry Wang at Wright Patterson back in the 1950s. If we can do that. I think that would be. Get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name and location and location. That's going to open up new avenues.

[Jesse]

That's a big deal.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Exploring way.

[Jesse]

And I was, I was maybe playing a little coy. I could say definitively he was real because I have a researcher friend who's in touch with his daughter now. So, like, yeah, he was. He was a real guy. And then here's what's really interesting about that. William Steinman book Aztec, he says that Eric Henry Wang was erased from the Internet. He was the only guy that when Steinman, because Steinman was a great researcher, he would go knocking on everybody's door. And he was trying to figure out what was up with this Eric Henry Wayne guy who was head of special projects at Right Airfield, then gets moved to Kirtland Air Force Base.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And he's like, who is this guy? Yeah, yeah. Now Sandia. And so he's like, what's going on with this guy? And he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist, like don't look at him, don't look at him. He goes, I figured out he reported to a guy named H A K. Yep. And guess who H A K is?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Kissed.

[Jesse]

Yeah, Henry A. Kissinger.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And there was like a source that Stman was talking to had information about Wang that went cold on him, that.

[Jesse]

Well, he showed up. Maria Wang, I believe he, he met his wife. Yeah. And Maria Wang, like. Yeah, I think it flipped on him or something.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Steinman is a treasure. Can we. The Aztec book. How Steinman went to Colorado through court records to find out how Gabour and Silas Newton were. Were unfairly attacked in their court case is astound, astonishing. You know, Silas Newton and Leo Gabauer were convicted of fraud for perpetuating the doodlebug device, which has very real historical significance in anti submarine warfare detection in World War II by. Spearheaded by Vannevar Bush. But that even in their court case there was a similar, not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as kooks and frauds. And Steinman did all of this. He went through, he, he was also a pioneer talking to Eric Walker. He was, he was a pioneer on, on numerous cases.

[Jesse]

Numerous cases and, and even Scully, you know, the case behind the flying saucer, like the, you know, kind of original, like archetypal UFO book that, that outlines this kind of Aztec crash. He was trusted with a lot of like celebrity sort of like really sensitive information. And so whoever Dr. G was, this sort of like, you know, consortium of scientists. Yeah, exactly.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

All of whom worked on anti submarine programs under Vanne.

[Jesse]

So wild. So wild. Yeah. Scott and Suzanne Ramsey have really. They deserve all the credit for digging up this like, kind of like short list of like eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in this pseudonym. Dr. G. Yeah. And they're getting in touch with, with Silas Newton. Silas Newton by the way, was worth, I don't know if you know this $20 million at the time really rich oil man. Yeah. So that's like a few hundred million now. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And pro golfer, too.

[Jesse]

I didn't know that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, it was like a pro or semi pro golfer.

[Jesse]

So no reason to lie about, you know, no reason to con anybody with a doodle bug. No reason to lie about a UFO crash, like.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But also in their court case, Gabauer and Newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodle bug's efficacy in finding oil deposits under their system. I can't remember the exact acronym. I think it was like MAP or something, but like a magnetic resonance thing to. To. To detect. Detect cavities underground that they actually found success with.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Interesting. Well, I know he was really interested in magnetism.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes, yes. And. And Silas Newton, in his diaries, would talk about Wilbert B. Smith, canadian radio engineer who spearheaded Canada's first project on UFOs, who was told by Robert Sarbacher, you know, consultant to the Defense Research Board, spearheaded by Vannevar Bush, that UFOs existed, that their modus operandi was unknown, but efforts were going under Vannevar Bush to study them. And it was the most highly kept secret in the United States government. Classified even higher. Higher than the Manhattan Project. All these sort of interconnected things that are so interesting.

[Jesse]

So interesting. I think. Yeah. I wonder if one of these people, you know, like Sarbacher has a son.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And I wonder if we could get in touch.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I'd like to. I always try and talk to people's kids. Like, I've tried to get in contact with Dr. Eric Walker's kids.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just no avail. Don't hear anything.

[Jesse]

So what are all of the locations in the US that you think house UFOs?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So it seems like if we're looking at the continental United States, there's a. There's a big divide.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's the. There's the west of the country, which has lower population density, which seems more suitable to RDT&E work. Research, development, test evaluation. You have massive ranges dug way in the Nevada Test and Training Range on which you could test derivative technologies. If we're looking out east. I, of course, we talked about the OUTEC Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Command, which is a Navy major range and test facility base. Patu river as well. I think whistleblower Matthew Brown talked about amentum hangers at. At. At Patuxent river housing some anomalous stuff. And remember, EG and G eventually transitioned into Patuxent River.

[Jesse]

Wasn't Sal P also Pax River?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, he was at Pax river when he filed his patents.

[Jesse]

Yeah. And his patents seem like how a UFO might work.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Like an internal mass production triangular craft. Yeah, that. That's weird. And with. With Matthew Brown, I'm not sure I agree with him about momentum hangers. Part of what I. Part of what I have come to strongly believe and would contest with that statement is I think the owners of the hangers are FFRDCs. They're the ones who manage it. Miter hanger. Yes. But this is part of a theory I have about why the Kona Blue Piece app failed. I think there's a very strict chain of command. People say legacy programs have no oversight. I disagree completely. I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely, extremely strictly managed. And I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangers storing craft. I think it is the FFRDCS because it's that GOCO government operated con, government owned contractor operated method that you know, if crap really hits the fan, the USG can take possession of it if it needs to. And you, you wouldn't think the DoD or IC would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uncontested but so Pax River I'd imagine might writer has quite a bit of involvement out there in Pax River. The big, the crown jewel of out east is Crystal City in Virginia. There was one firsthand legacy guy, a friend of mine I was speaking to once and he said that the answer to most of what you're looking for is in Crystal City, Virginia. Really? Crystal City houses eight of ten of the US's biggest defense contractors, numerous FFRDCs.

[Jesse]

This Crystal City in Arlington or yeah, near Arlington.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then of course you got that Chantilly region with the NRO headquarters and SAIC headquarters and all that. But I imagine Crystal City is likely where I guess the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed. The framework, the agreements, what contractors are rotated through, what programs are rotated through, where a lot of the bigot list accesses is handled.

[Jesse]

And isn't John Peterson based out there the kind of the Arlington Institute futuristic study or whatever.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Of course BDM McLean was out there where the Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group.

[Jesse]

Was held and interesting. So that's where that group was with Hal put off and Okie Shannon kind of looking into UFOs.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then under Washington D.C. the Pentagon. I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility. Not the nmcc, the national national something Command center. The nmcc. It's not that. It's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon that Likely. Likely houses some sort of very clandestine office that at least in years past, would manually process. Read on access to USPS. Weird place deep under the Pentagon. There's some interesting data to confirm this, its existence, but of course, it's still contested out. And then, of course, lastly, we have the Y12 complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which. Hey, Sean Kirkpatrick, why did you run to Oak Ridge after you fled from Arrow? Why did your position, which was like, you know, director for Intelligence Programs at Oak Ridge, why something similar to that? Why was that pulled off their page? And why in 2025, has Sean Kirkpatrick's LLC Nonlinear Solutions subcontracting, subcontracting under MITER for US spacecom.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's so clear that Arrow is like, basically counterintuitive.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Absolutely.

[Jesse]

And Jim mcatsky sort of said this on this last weaponized podcast. But it's. It's like. I mean, I think Glenn Gaffney, who's the Director of Science and Technology for the CIA, was on the board of Arrow. Like, he might still be for all I know. You know, it's sort of.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's like, yeah, like the Carlisle Group, or Ronald Moultrie of the Carlisle Group helping set up Arrow. And he and Sean Kirkpatrick are kind of smirking at each other, saying there's nothing to UFOs.

[Jesse]

And speaking of somebody scrubbing their resume, you pointed this out in a great video. Ronald Moultrie, you know, basically created the auspices under which ERA was created, also was a board director of Battelle Memorial Institute and deleted that office LinkedIn, scrubbed it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Scrubbed it. And part of the Carlisle Group.

[Jesse]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think. Don't quote me on it, but I'm almost positive he was also part of mitre.

[Jesse]

That's crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

MITRE will show up everywhere and anywhere with Sean Kirkpatrick. I'm not sure if he had exposure to legacy programs before his work at Arrow. One could probably argue with his positions in spacecom and with Intelligence. He might have been exposed to programs of imminent or SIGINT satellite and overhead collection platforms actually collecting UFOs. There's a big misconception there, by the way people think that, like the overhead satellites, you know, NRO satellites. Satellites are just picking up live feeds of UFOs. No, this stuff is all parsed into data. All the data is transmitted from the satellites electronically. So a program like Immaculate Constellation or a Legacy program satellite. Because Immaculate Constellation isn't a legacy program. It was a. It was a reactionary use app established in 2017. Which would clip out data that would probably depict anomalies like a UFO and sequester it into MCOM or another legacy program site. So who knows if Sean Kirkpatrick had previous exposure to UFO legacy programs. But a strong argument could be made that whilst he was head of Arrow, he was. He was retroactively briefed into various aspects of legacy programs. So he would know what to lie about in the Aero historical report.

[Jesse]

Yeah, and the. I think the larger point is like there's just such a conflict of interest, like if you have some independent review board like for the people of the US around whether there is non human intelligence, any of this stuff stuff exists. Don't pick the guy who at 17 won, you know, an award from the DOE, from the Department of Energy at Brookhaven National Labs and ever since has been doing contract work in that area. Like pick somebody who's going to be impartial.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's senior research scientist to SAIC too.

[Jesse]

Yeah, there you go.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

In a row. You know, specifically I think back to then you must ask the question what did Arrow lie about in that testimony? One specific, specific example we know for a fact that was lied about in Arrow Historical report volume one was Michael Herrera's testimony. We actually pride his MFR from Arrow, his memorandum for record because the Arrow historical report said Herrera spoke about an extraterrestrial spacecraft and US Special Forces, neither of which he spoke about. So if Sean Kirkpatrick was retroactively briefed into parts of legacy programs just to know enough to obfuscate the report, that means was if he lied about Herrera's testimony, does he have knowledge of direct action crash retrieval personnel?

[Jesse]

Interesting. Yeah. And you have meetings, you have pictures of him in a meeting with Brandon Fugal giving like. Oh, the one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Weird kind of look over his shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him. Yeah. And you know, so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff, you know, earlier than he likes to admit.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And anybody who talks to him says he's awful.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Repugnant.

[Jesse]

And he seems like you just, you know, you mentioned this as well in your video. He will adamantly say extraterrestrial. He will never say non human. Where. Yeah, maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Remember that? David Grush B roll footage with Ross Coltheart. When he speaks about biologics he says presumably extraterrestrial but not a for sure confirmation.

[Jesse]

That's why they say non, presumably extraterrestrial.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But not for sure.

[Jesse]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's hard to know. I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation. Conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right.

[Jesse]

Like, they have. There's somebody there who like, has this core theory of how the world works that is way more accurate than somebody on the outside. I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue, for sure. And we are. A lot of it is worthy of disclosure. And this needs to be, you know, outside of stuff that's like, extremely, you know, like, weaponizable at, like, low cost or whatever. Like, everything else should be, like, completely disclosed. It's the nature of reality. But, like, we would still have to piece together the nature of reality. I don't think the government's sitting on that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

No. It seems like their entire, as David Grush says, asymmetrical warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance.

[Jesse]

Yes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's what they. They're not out there philosophizing as to, like, the larger truths of these beings. Speaking of Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm reminded to when Susan Go was asked if by a FOIA researcher or somebody if they could amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include non human intelligence, to which she said, no, you absolutely cannot amend my. To include. We have no evidence of non human intelligence, but a piece of work. The woman who controls the lease of Shankarpatrick.

[Jesse]

Well, if that's not a tell, I don't know what is. Like, that's, that's crazy. That shows a lot of insecurity.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right. But we were talking about facilities and.

[Jesse]

She ran psyop stuff.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, she wrote papers on psyops, just like Sean Kirkpatrick wrote papers on influence of people in like, social networks and stuff.

[Jesse]

It's like social engineering.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Just like arrow hired SanCorp, which specializes in insider threat protection, whistleblower leaks. Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying sandcorp was hired to connect Arrow to subject matter experts. That's not in Sand Corp scope of operations. So I'm not sure I believe that. But yeah, Arrow is doing all sorts of dubious activities.

[Jesse]

Don't, don't you find yourself caught, though, sometimes, between these obfuscators of truth who are clearly bad actors. Like everybody, we're just. We just mentioned clearly a bad actor and then some people on the pro UFO side who also seem like they're at times bad actors.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And so it's like this weird. You're, like, flanked by, like, bad vibes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's a minefield.

[Jesse]

It's a minefield. And then you ask the question, like, are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up? Because you clearly do have bad actors on both sides.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think so, yeah. Controlled disclosure. That's why, like, if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David Grusch.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure disclosure. He seems, watching anything with him, you can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates and you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself, kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can, speaking on all aspects of the subject, you know, non human intelligence, presumably extraterrestrial, how these programs are funded.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And so forth.

[Jesse]

Well, I think, I think on the pro, per David Grush, most of the whistleblowers, most of them, and there's probably some exceptions, are good actors.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah, the whistleblowers a lot.

[Jesse]

Like, like the guys especially who like experienced a thing or like haplessly were. They were tasked to investigate a thing like David Grush or they, you know, and they fell, they, they like fell into like, you know, seeing things that they couldn't look away from or folks.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Folks on the ssci, I would put in that category as well. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence who are tasked with investigating this.

[Jesse]

Absolutely. People like Kirk McConnell and some other staffers and. Yeah. Who, you know, definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from legacy programs to Congress so that these guys could show up in skiffs and stuff for sure. And then at the same time there are all sorts of weird, you know, guys who like, they pop up in like the pro UFO world and then they're, they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in intel world world and you're.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like, yeah, yeah, limited disclosure, promising researchers and folks various things and then doing other things. And yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's kind of a mess.

[Jesse]

It's a mess. And all I'm saying is it's like, I think it's easy to go after the obfuscating guys ad hominem. And then it's harder to go after the pro guys ad hominem because, like, I think both of us are like, pro disclosure.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes.

[Jesse]

And so I'm like, if you're going to be like a weirdo in like, other aspects of, of your life, but you're like, you're pushing like, like the nature of reality are the stakes. Yeah. I don't care about your, like, other weird shit. I'm not going to get caught up in that because I'm going to get distracted from the truth if I get caught up in that. Well, that's the thing about managing. Like, I think Carl Nell, you know, who's always been, you know, to me, a good guy and like my, I enjoyed my interactions with him. I find him to be extremely intellectual, actually just brilliant. But he just went on a podcast and he said disclosure is dead. I guess the postulate I've got is that this recent cycle of disclosure that we might say started in 2017 with.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The Navy videos and Luo Elizondo coming out and as a whistleblower making various.

[Jesse]

Assertions, that cycle of disclosure is effectively ended with the failure to pass the US UAP Disclosure act and with.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

With sort of the fourth or third.

[Jesse]

In a series of hearings on the topic that I think increasingly have moved the needle less and less. And I think you are going to end up there if you attempt to do the manage. The manage disclosure thing is the most Sisyphean.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Exercise. And like, I think maybe the most telling thing in the. The. The. Not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland, but the one before that, the clip closed one with like Elizondo Avi Loeb and Eric Davis. Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure. Yeah. Which is this logical fallacy, like, how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist? They're obviously going to be managing the process.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Boy, that event was a mess, was it not?

[Jesse]

That was a total mess. The crop circle or whatever.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Gosh. Yeah. And yeah, speaking of Eric Davis, it's the same thing. I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence. I. I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis memoir are very true. In, In a. Sen. Thomas Wilson was denied access into legacy programs while Deputy Director of the dia. But then I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles. I think he has, as close as we are now, told me outright fallacies about that and whether he's just too proud to admit that he doesn't understand the science or more likely, in my opinion, it's a classic program protection strategy. It seems like with a lot of the most famous characters in this sub space, their disclosures come with strings attached or some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or half true.

[Jesse]

It's interesting also how, like, certain cases are like, like with Eric Davis, he seems like, you know, I talked to him about the Aztec crash, so dogmatically opposed to that crash. Right. And if you look at that with an open mind and first principles, in fact, I think on the Wikipedia is still Aztec crash hoax. It is like, you know, literally in the name. But then if you look at it with an open mind, you meet Scott and Suzanne Ramsey, who are these really amazing people in North Carolina, independent researchers who have small business and have poured, I want to say, $600,000 plus into this investigation over decades. And they have so much evidence. I mean, I went to the crash site with them. Yeah, this thing happened. There's something happened there. And I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis's part. I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is. But.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But then conversely, he, He. He also is very pro the 1954 Del Rio, Texas crash incident, which. That's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes there. 1955, Robert Willingham in Del Rio, Texas, and the 1954 Del. 1950 Del Rio crash, which is actually El Inter Indio, Guerrero, Texas, Mexico, which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower briefing document of the Majestic 12 documents. So he'll kind of dogmatically shoot down Aztec, but support a very convoluted case without much evidence to. To support or even investigate or chew into it.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's tough. I mean, it's funny, you. You got me thinking when you asked my top five crashes, like, the, the confidence level drops off a ton for me after maybe number seven or eight or something because you have all these, like, Leonard Stringfield cases with, like, it's just pseudonyms, and you're like, I don't know, you know, like, like even, you know, even the Lawrence Livermore thing you mentioned, like, you know, maybe that has, you know, a name attached to it and a guy in, you know, 1990 or one or whatever that, you know, came out.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But it's.

[Jesse]

Some of these crashes just feel like really like I, you know, the magenta thing. I now have Marconi's grandson, but we have no living witnesses of this crash. It's just, it's tough with some of these.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The same thing with Ryan Wood's excellent book Magic Eyes Only. There's really intriguing cases that, you know, likely have some validity to them, but there's not enough to really sift through and chew through there's not enough people to speak to. There's not enough named characters. I mean, I'm sure there's quite a few crash retrievals in Ryan Wood's book Magic Eyes Only that are legit. There's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on.

[Jesse]

Yeah, exactly. It's tough. Well, do you think like this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time? Like I guess this brings like this, this, this other like kind of more like deeper ontological question of like are there like reality gatekeepers? Like these crashes happen and like okay, maybe we have some immaculate constellation. The NRO has like you know, first, first first access, you know, eyes on all this stuff. Then maybe you have some like OGA style thing with, through the CIA. Maybe it's not OGA, you know, anymore, but like, you know, some rapid response to teams or whatever. Like you say you have all of that, you would still expect some really hard concrete proof in the form of materials ending up in civilian hands like at some point soon, you know. Yeah. So yeah, I would hope so.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I, I, I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval. You know, maybe most crash retrievals occur today because, because the craft are shot down.

[Jesse]

Do you think that's the case?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think that it's light, it's likely many of them are. But then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

For people. And why aren't, why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth and then maritime crash retrieval, it's not only you know, like the Baltic Sea anomaly, if that's a craft that only like well equipped, well funded organizations are going to be able to retrieve. And I genuinely think that since the 1960, the NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like Tier 1 or Tier 1 adjacent assets and, and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DoD elements will be first on the scene even, even halfway across the world.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

If there is a, if there's a crash in, in India, in the, in the mountains of India, I think the US is, is going to get there before any sort of, you know, local authorities or local on site personnel.

[Jesse]

Do you think, like why do you think the US is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to, to disclosure? Like it feels like Russia, China have said very little about this stuff. Is it just kind of an open system, closed system?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

China, they'll just kill you.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And also like the, I think that the way.

[Jesse]

But why isn't that? Because like more institutional components of the United States have started to push disclosure. Why is there no one in China being like, you know, maybe this would actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure like we talked about the managed disclosure people in the US Why aren't there quite equivalent?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Maybe they're still on the back foot, huh? Maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineer technologies to their ISR platforms in tonight airspace. Maybe they know because of just how spine and infiltration works that the US is far more advanced. So if they open up the can of worms and we have a global disclosure, sir, sure, Russia may have a couple tic tacs up in their mountains and, and China may have some recovered vehicles and made some progress and adapting electro optic cloaking. But they know that we are the big baddies and if, if the whole can of worms is open, we are positioned as a, the global superpower for the next 10,000 years.

[Jesse]

Interesting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, it stands to reason if, if these countries know they're on the back foot, which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russia and China over the years without the same sort of, of, of access and, and superpower leading that we have had. I mean, for example, the US has been the big bad political superpower. So you know, with five eyes retrieval groups, we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes, we probably get first dibs.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Do you think, you know, because you could make a flip side argument to that, which is like you have strong men like Putin and Xi G named himself dictator for life I think in 2016 or something where there's this long planning element, this long time horizon, ability to make decisions. You know, I think in China it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2016, 49, you know, and you know, you know, obviously their plans to probably overtake Taiwan and like the, you know, the next few years maybe. And, and so in the US you, you have like, you know, this kind of, you know, temporary, this temp, you know, that, that, that gets into office, maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever. So do, do you think, you know, there's John Alexander who's in and around UFO lore like, you know, up to his neck and he, you know, he said that the Majestic 12, you know, and like the elite governance systems around UFOs are kind of like almost euphemisms. For continuity of government programs. So this idea that, you know, I think in Eisenhower's time you had the 5412 committee, which is this interagency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability. If the President wanted some dirty work done that, that he didn't want to be involved with, that turned into I believe the 303 Committee, the Committee of 40. Do you think? And then we hear about people like Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, these types who like, if there was a government behind the government, those guys would be involved in that government. Like Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue shit, was playing Nixon like a fiddle. You could say the same thing with Cheney vis a vis Bush and American foreign policy. Do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Probably, because in the way legacy programs work, it's a parallel chain of, of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists right next to, you know, the executive branch, possibly partly within the executive branch within US DoD, IC Systems. Self funded intelligence agencies. They can do what they want. They don't adhere to the whims of the President. So by all intents and purposes, these, these, you know, if you look at Katherine Austin FITZ Talking about 17 to 21 trillion dollars embedded in the US black budget just since like the 1990s alone, these, the legacy programs are better funded, better technology, more powerful than the United States government. So this essentially is a shadow government and like a deep state for all intents and purposes. And maybe that is also why Russia and China are far behind us on the topic. There seems to be far more, a far more homogenous group within them. You know, Xi Jinping and Putin are like the monoliths of those countries. They are, those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries. Reverse engineering, engineering and retrieval programs. The U.S. i mean our, our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs that can harness US assets whenever it wants in theater or at home, can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men at arms. It's just, it's a, it's a very, it's very disturbing the implications of the power of legacy programs.

[Jesse]

Yeah, so we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs and you talk about historical corroboration for that. What about places in the United States that house alien bodies? Are you confident in any of those locations?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Probably by its description that would probably be dugway okay. That'd probably be the. One of the biggest places as well as maybe like Fort Detrick, Maryland, wherever there's Battelle. And some of Battelle's like biological focused FFRDCs. I can't remember the acronyms right now, but wherever Battelle is located, I would highly believe that these are the places that, where bodies are stored. You know, historically, bodies were kept on ice at Wright Patterson, flown from Roswell, but with the evolution of legacy programs, there are probably. There are. Which is very scary to think about. There are probably laboratories that house deceased non human biologics.

[Jesse]

Are you in touch with anybody who, who has seen an alien body?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And, and what do they say about the bodies? Well, and are they cryonically frozen or like they're. These people weren't like abducted. They're like seen in a government context. Like bodies are being stored.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Retrieval.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What are we.

[Jesse]

Or during a crash, what always comes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Up is the, the, the gray aliens. It's a very like the wraparound eyes, almond shaped head, large black eyes, gray tail, tan brownish skin.

[Jesse]

It, it's, it's, that's, that's the common.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Specifically in an egg.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

In a, in a manned egg that somebody was present for a retrieval for.

[Jesse]

So what about. Not on a retrieval? What about these bodies stored in military facilities?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, place out in California. Oh, an unnamed place. A place that doesn't have its own designation. I, I don't even know who the heck run runs it.

[Jesse]

Whoa.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like one of those in plane site things and like, like you know where. I, I'm not sure exactly where. SoCal.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

SoCal region. Not antelope Valley, but Antelope Valley probably deals with tech more but.

[Jesse]

And you think they're. And you, you feel confident in this Whistleblower. Not whistleblower. This person who's contacted you.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, I, Yeah, that's the person I would like stake my like entire rep on.

[Jesse]

Can you say anything high level about them or.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They don't, they don't want to be talked about. Not at all. And I got, I like, I got to respect that.

[Jesse]

Sure, sure. Did you get in touch with them or did they get.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I got in touch with them. This person's a personal hero to me and I just got to. If they don't want to be talked about, I must respect.

[Jesse]

Well, it's a good sign that you're not. You know, I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than if you reach out to them. Mo.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

95% of the people I speak to, I have sought them out. That person who I. I talked to you about that was on a. A crash retrieval team or to claim they have. I. I spent a year trying to track them down.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I spent. And they do not want to be contacted. This. It takes months and months to form a relationship with these people. I know it's a good time when I contact them and I just. I. I'm usually really upfront with people and they just say, how did you get my name? Who are you? And stop talking to me.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like they're not denying the claims. You know, like they're clearly. Like they know they're. They were involved a lot of crazy.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

A lot of them are smart and at first will say like I have no knowledge or expo. Like re. Like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on. On.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like an agreement for an Apple product. I have no knowledge of extraterrestrials. I have not seen bodies, nor have I seen craft. I have not been to military installations or disclosed unauthorized disclosures.

[Jesse]

Yeah. This is kind of a crazy question and maybe I'm. Maybe this is self defeating for me, but I feel like it's important, Important question to ask because it's hard for me to comment on my own stuff. I'm probably biased somewhat and you know, I, I want to respect anybody that comes on the show. Who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, that's a good.

[Jesse]

That's a great question because I can ask. You can gas me up all day, but I want you. I want you to. I want you to straw man.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Let's chew through that actually. Because the top three best would be Grush Malm Grin and Dan Sherman. Those are the three best.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Okay. I'm trying to think who would be the least. I'm just trying to think who, like who has the most grand claims without. I. I'm. Because I'm trying to parse things into like if they. If they have testimony. I mean one of them that. That's just kind of hard to even buy into just because he's. He's so. Matter of fact is Charles Hall.

[Jesse]

Y.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But that's also partly because he's. It can be difficult to listen to like the droning on.

[Jesse]

Sure.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

About stuff for hours. I'm.

[Jesse]

Gosh, you weren't there. But I. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Top four Beatrice as well is up there.

[Jesse]

Okay.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Beatrice. Because you know her. Hers is so scientifically. Backed and.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Yeah. Her research so top four as far as her testimony.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Excellent.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. She's amazing.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Autumn. Gosh. I'm trying to think who else? Of course, I'm also super partial to Randy just because I. I know Randy as a human and I like him very much.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I'm very partial to Graham Hancock just because I like his work outside of the space.

[Jesse]

Yeah. I love Graham.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

A classic. It's not an interview. The T. Townsend Brown.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's a classic.

[Jesse]

That's like. I'm like, I'm as high conviction as anything on that stuff. I love that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Let me see.

[Jesse]

Kirk.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Because he bullied you. Stephen Greer. I completely. That's a great episode. It's interesting. But he bullied you.

[Jesse]

But so the weird thing with anybody, there are very few people, I think you're making this point kind of who are like fully full of. Because even Greer has all sorts of personality issues, you know, and like, he's so much ego and like, would I want to be stuck in an elevator with that guy? No, I wouldn't. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, he, he's sitting on a lot of interesting information anecdotes like he was before you. A lot of these guys kind of, you know, sitting in the black. And a lot of these programs didn't have anywhere to go and they went to him.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, I, I look at Greer almost like an Anakin Skywalker type character.

[Jesse]

Yeah, he.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He gave himself to the dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony to then burn so many people and expose so many people and hurt so many people. The. What he started off with, I think was incredibly noble intentions and true. Yeah, I mean, that's a, That's a good point. Everyone's testimony I got to kind of look at and be interested in. I think a lowest credibility side of firsthand witness encounters. Right now for me is probably Charles hall, just because I. It's. It's hard for me to sit through and parse the. That story.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, that was a tough one. I mean, I, I sat through, you know, we. That was even longer than we. Than we discussed. But I wanted to. To make it digestible for the audience. And it was. I was like, this is. This is so, like he would just go on. And at one point he goes. And I hurt my knee. And then they. The tall whites flew me from Area 51 to Area 52 and then Area 53. And I was like, you got your Knee got hurt and it was used to like, Like, Like a hell evacuate you out of like, the range you were at. After I thought I'd broken my kneecap and then it healed up. There was the next morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at. Up at Area 54, F53 to see if I needed a knee surgery on my knee. And it was this. The tall whites. Yeah. Only. And when I got up there, the American generals were there and medical people were up there too. And I didn't. I just bruised it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Maybe it's similar to like a Jason Sands type story where there's an initial exposure. That's interesting that there's some. Something there. And then they just continue to expand on it to where the story kind of gets out of control.

[Jesse]

I don't think you can easily. I mean, because there are also people online saying, like, he faked. He was not in the Air Force. Bs he was in the Air Force. And I have the right. You have his DD214. You have certificates and stuff. Like, he was definitely in the Air Force. And so. And I think he was a weather observer and I think he was based at Area 51. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And then I think he was.

[Jesse]

And then beyond that. Yeah. It's like, hard for me to believe he was like, hanging out with these beings for as long. But I mean, there's clearly. He's very neurodivergent, you know, Clearly. So it's tough. It's tough. You know, I. My point being, I. I would agree with you on that. But I. It's also pretty hard to definitively write him off also. It's like, you know, and there are people online trying to do that. I'm like, you can't do that either. You have to contend with the. You know, it's. It's just. They seem a little beyond belief to me. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What's frustrating is if he had encounters with beans.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

On Area 51. And that was the extent of it. Right. Maybe something like Corso said in his manuscript where he encountered a trapped bean who said, hey, lower the radar so we can get out of here. That'd be more believable. But when I know the beans, I hung out with them.

[Jesse]

They flew me around.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's when it starts to get names for all them.

[Jesse]

The teacher and.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Arrange for Harry.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like, who knows? Maybe he was exposed to them and just kind of got carried away.

[Jesse]

Well, what I. You mentioned, Sherman is one of the top ones. Sherman, to me, couldn't have Been more of a the, you know, kind of opposite vibe of Charles. Charles hall was like, too detailed. Like he had an answer for everything.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

I asked him random stuff about, you know, from physics to, like, their communication patterns, their dialect, like, everything. The books they read. They read books. Apparently they read like, all these things, but they weren't interested in the books on Einstein because they clearly had better, you know, they had better physics or whatever. It was like crazy stuff like that. Like, he had an answer for everything. Sherman, she, to me, pattern matched so much to somebody telling the truth because I would tell him, like, open source stuff that would support his testimony. You know, I'd be like, you know, this guy Noah Roddick actually FOIA'd, you know, this independent researcher, FOIA, Project Preserve Destiny. And the Foy was sent to the Air Force, and the Air Force forwarded it to the nsa. Yeah, basically. Which, if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned, like, that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the nsa. So. And he, he goes, oh, yeah, cool. He goes, oh, you did that great. Like, he didn't give a f. He didn't care at all. And it was. To me, I'm like, oh, this guy's so comfortable in his own like. Like he knows what happened to him. He's not trying to signal anything. He's the opposite of a Greer who's constant. There's so much bluster.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He doesn't have an answer for everything.

[Jesse]

Doesn't have an answer for everything. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

What? You and. You and I have a mutual friend who has had decades of experience in electronics intelligence. And, you know, he sat both of us down separately and we talked both. We had both. We, you know, we didn't know we had both spoken to him until yesterday, but.

[Jesse]

And I think we can say his name because he's on Twitter supporting Dan Haug. Yes, yes.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I talked to him at Seoul and he, you know, we were talking about Project Preserve Destiny, and he's. He, he sat me down and talked to me for a very long time about how Dan Sherman's discussion of various elint systems and knowledge of elan systems and process of eland electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money.

[Jesse]

Yeah, there you go. And like, just a beyond reasonable, casual guy and would admit. Would say, you know, I think the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever. And it's like you try remembering something, you know, moment by moment that happened to you 30 plus years ago. Good luck.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's like way Gantt97. If, if he doesn't remember something, I say, hey, do you remember the smell? I don't remember.

[Jesse]

He doesn't remember. Yeah. And Bob Lazar same though my details get a little fuzzy here. No, if they don't, then you're lying, right?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

If you, that's a worse signal.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's just like Sherman showed such restraint to even say like I don't really know what these beans I was getting down on from looked like.

[Jesse]

Yes, yeah, totally. And then what's wild is the base he was at, he took a photo of it and it's in above black. And I, you know, we, we reversed, me and my researcher reverse image searched it and we figured out a San Vito de Normani and, and you know that that's in, in Southern Italy. And we called it out and he goes, yeah, that was the base. And so like you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it because you don't really have the Internet, you know, in popular use back then at least. And you know, now we did. So everything keeps seeming to check and then the final thing I'll say about that one is, you know, and I, I hate doing this, but a guy who is, doesn't want to go public also, but very high up and like extremely credible position. Who I, I wish I could, I could say who it is. You can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want. Yeah, you can, you can not care that I'm saying this, whatever. But he corroborated a bunch of details around the Sherman story as well. So I, I, I really think, you know, hold that in high esteem.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's, it's interesting that people are, are, have likely been interfacing with these non human intelligence through telepathic downloads. That's really crazy, but it's really interesting and it, it, it holds a lot of, of water. Strange world we live in.

[Jesse]

Strange world. And, and, and you know, do you know who Puharich is, is Andre Bruharch, early architect of MK Ultra. He had these sort of machines that I think were kind of similar to what Dan Sherman was using, where you would hum a tone in your mind, match that to the tone you're hearing in these headphones and that would get you into this locked in telepathic state. And he, everybody, he had this camp in, in upstate New York and all these quote unquote space kids would go up there and channel what he called the nine, these alien beings and he was a contractor for the CIA. Wow. And, and that. So, and that work definitely became classified and went somewhere. And I think it probably went into Project Preserve Destiny.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Wow.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So let me ask you this in kind of a similar vein. Right. Right now, because Chris Ramsey asked me a similar question. I thought it was a great one. Right now, if you were in charge of assembling five witnesses for the next congressional hearing to make it the best one that's ever happened to deliver their testimony, it could be five minutes, it could be three hours. So what, five people people? Would you choose?

[Jesse]

Could they be just anybody? Like, like, like, yeah, anybody.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, let's, let's, yeah, yeah, let's go. Non hostile witnesses. So you could be like Bobby Raynman.

[Jesse]

Okay. Yeah. Right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So not a separate question.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, the separate question is, top five people, you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to, to, to basically extract their test.

[Jesse]

So they have good intentions.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Okay. And like, could they like say anything in the actual test? Because like, I would, you know, I'd pick somebody like Rush. But like, you know, it's tough. Things were like, he's like, you know, let's go to a skiff right now. And like, I'll tell you which, by.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

The way, when people say Grush has no first stand experience, go back to look in what Moskowitz asked David Grush. When Moskowitz said, do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms depicting UFOs, Grush said kind of danced around the topic. Then Moskowitz said, have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes? And he said, I would have to answer that in a close.

[Jesse]

There you go.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So, yeah, let's do full open disclosures.

[Jesse]

So they can say whatever. Okay. I mean, that's funny. Cause I, I, my mind goes to some of the people who I think don't have the best intentions but know so much, clearly due to their background. I think people like, you know, I think Grush has like kind of autistic attention to detail. You know, hundreds of pages that he gave to the icig. You know, Thomas Monheim and like has just like programs, names, dates, like, you know, where the body are buried. So I'd say him, he could probably.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Go through right now. He could probably deliver the exact specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up, definitely first created. And he'd be able to name everything off the head.

[Jesse]

I think. You know, I think Hal put off would be great. I think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye. I mean, like, it's like, you know, if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 crafts, you know, on, on Joe Rogan, it's like, where are you getting that information?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And why. Yeah, and where as well, just 12 to 15. I reckon the 12 to 15 were just the ones he was exposed to.

[Jesse]

Totally. And he seems to pop up everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science and size stuff. And size stuff, which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Remember what Grush said on jre? You know, they start talking about remote viewing stuff and David Grush says, well, what if the CIA started looking into this as a side stuff, as a possible solution to serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a warehouse. I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said that nobody's ever really kind of paid attention to.

[Jesse]

Interesting. So wait, so what would this. This would be.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They were talking about Stargate remote viewing. He and Joe and Grush proposes the question that maybe these, these psy programs were taken on by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get it gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our warehouses.

[Jesse]

I mean, that makes total, total sense. We'll also look at Putoff's, you know, he's the founding architect of Stargate, all the psychic spy stuff, and then he moves on to like the rest of his career. Seems really dedicated to the UFO question.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So there I. That has to be connected somehow. And you hear a lot of rumors that they're, that they're somehow connected. And look, this is really weird, but like, okay, if the size stuff is real, which I think both of us think it is, remote view viewing is a real modality, then what is happening in reality itself? Like what, what, what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict? It's like psychic conflict. Yeah. Which is really weird, right?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And the lever that, yeah, the, the, the system that allows remote viewing to work and operate it is it really, it kind. It breaks my brain because I'm such a, like logistic person to, to think about psi principles and stuff. It's such a huge quandary to me.

[Jesse]

Have you met anybody that discusses timeline management or the ability to see different timelines? Obviously Bob Lazar, you know, was briefed on Project Looking Glass.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor, who, you know, is written about by Diana Pasulka and kind of enters her life. He is Part of this quote unquote secret space program and, but he kind of thinks, thinks of himself as like a, a, you know, adjustment bureau, timeline management person.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So there's been a, you know, I think I've talked about it before a testimony I'm not really sure what to do with because I, I don't, I really don't know how to act on it. And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim, but it's somebody who claimed whilst they were in Naval intelligence, they were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a, basically a remote viewing tool, but that this sphere was basically used to I, I guess like coagulate time onto the Planck scale. Looking at time as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. Again, I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex.

[Jesse]

You know what to do with it. Send it to me.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I'll send it to you because it's very interesting. It's very interesting. But again, I don't know the validity to it. I've not even begin, begun to start to vet that individual because, because it's just a really interesting claim that I, I'm just not sure what to. Whoa, I'll, I'll send that, I'll, I'll try and get that guy over.

[Jesse]

Dude, I would be so fascinated. I mean Matthew Brown also talked about some AI timeline management system that the White House has or whatever.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But then that would, that would give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works, right? Because if you have an AI that can predict future events, we have a pretty deterministic universe, right?

[Jesse]

Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branch of the multiverse or something. And you know, who know, you know actually Hugh Everett who created the many worlds theories, you know, you Everett, Many worlds. He went on to work for the Pentagon in nuclear game theory. Really? Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Whoa.

[Jesse]

Yeah. So maybe there's some sort of weird connection there where I mean this is really trippy, weird territory. But like I think the Doe, like so the UFOs in nukes book talks about like all these guys seeing sort of saucers, discs, you know, tic tacs or orbs that seem to like often interfere with nukes. The DOE itself often feels like the center of a lot of people having spiritual experiences. And so I wonder if you know, if you were to actually like say like the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing, like maybe like Multiverse branching is happening all the time. And like there's pruning occurring and there's certain apocalypses that happen, like in the three body problem. And then some survive or whatever. Like the Doe would be like the center of that stuff.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Right.

[Jesse]

And so like, maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world. And it explains a lot of the UFOs and nuke stuff. And if you actually talked to Robert Hastings, I had this deep conversation with him and I was like, how many of these guys have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted? Not just they're on the base, they've seen stuff. Stuff or whatever. And he goes like seven or eight out of the 167. Whoa. And I go, did you pull. Did you pull them formally on this? They go. He goes, no, those are just the people who've like come out saying that. So in my mind I'm like, there's probably like half of them.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Or more. And he himself has had experiences, as has, you know, Bob Jacobs. You know, a lot of these guys have had Mario Woods, I found out, had childhood experience. Experience. So it's like the people who end up working in these programs are like closer to this like weird celestial realm.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I know guys who have worked in the program who are. Have now like become far more spiritual because of their time in the programs. And it's really, it's really weird. Like guys who are interested in Diana Pasolka's work and like religious questionings and religious frameworks because of their time in the program. Yeah, it's like, what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people either directly or incidentally exposed to all of these programs?

[Jesse]

And then have Tim Taylor telling Diana Pasulka, here's the hierarchy of being. And I think it's like alien or non human intelligence, you know, or aliens or whatever, you know, human hybrids with the beings. Then it's like, you know, intel agencies or whatever. And it's like on down from there and like, like, how do you have. Is this. Do you think he's legit? Do you think Tim Taylor's legit? He's this NASA mission controller that seems to also pop up everywhere in this issue. Also seems to like know all the experience or like he knows Bledsoe. He knew Charles Hall.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. You probably have better knowledge on this than I because you've spoken to the man. But it's.

[Jesse]

I wish I did. I wish I got more out of it.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

He seems to Be acting on the behalf of a faction.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Hanging out and getting close with various people. What his deal is, I don't know. The thing that's most intriguing to me are the statements that he walks around with credentials from numerous intelligence agencies and organizations like NRO access, various IC Agency access. Access. That's very strange to me. We can just kind of stroll in wherever he wants.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it's strange and it's. I don't like, like naming too many, too many names but like, you know, especially if they're not like public figures generally. But I think Bledsoe doxxed him. And then Chris Ramsey kind of said it best with Tim Taylor where he's like if you want us not to mention you like stop doing spooky like it just ends shows like.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

He enters the lives of all of these experiences and gets really close with them.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like yeah, didn't. Isn't there photos of Tim Taylor football games of. Of Chris Bledsoe's children or something like that? Like he's really involved in their lives.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Would Tim Taylor be the third one on your.

[Jesse]

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean if. Well again, here's a problem is the intersection between like have some incentive to like not say everything and like what they know is like extremely high. So like if it's like the truth serum test. Yeah. Like I do Tim Taylor like this.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Platform, full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in. In some disclosure and they get the ultra.

[Jesse]

I mean another. A guy on the good side, I think or at least good side at the end of his life was Harold Malmgren and I think he knew a lot more. And this was so sad to me because I thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up. We did our first interview. His health started to go downhill right after that and so we were going to do like four hours, like three days in a row or something like that. And. And then he said things to me that like I don't think anybody thought that like whoever the Majestic 12 or group is like had anything to do with him. I mean it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something. But he was then says on the phone to me and I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me because his voice is muffled and he's in the hospital on his deathbed. But he goes, that was when the CIA started training tracking me. They put my name in some file and he goes them and the Majestic. And then we had, we dubbed the whole thing because he had throat cancer 10 years before. And then I see it in the dub, I'm like, oh, like after he passed away, I came to the office, I said, why am I here? I asked for it. And I said, well, who had a record said the day that you met the president MIT that day your name went in all the important books of talent. I had. Yeah, that, that, that. Who keeps C? Wow. Not only C, but you know, all Majestic, all they all took to protect the world. It's like, what did he know? You know, with how quickly his health.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Declined, it almost felt like he was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information. You know, you hear a lot of like family members of, of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones or you know, get a final word. And it seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present, with his family present, it. It seemed like right after that his health declined. I don't. Maybe he was it. That's just been something he was holding on to for so long.

[Jesse]

I think so I think he was bottling it up and he really. I think he felt a little bad about some maybe like tangential touch points he had had with the program. And I think he just wanted to see more of this stuff out.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I wish more legacy people had consciences like that.

[Jesse]

I know. I wish that too. And then I also, I understand if your family's being threatened.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

If you're taking some anthrax booster and for all you know, you know, it's like.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Or you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your like computer or to get your life ruined.

[Jesse]

He wants to deal with that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

No, yeah. So. But I do wish more, more people can. And honestly you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out out, because I feel like you're in touch. You're as close to the metal as it gets. You know, like if somebody has come out like often I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them. But I'm not really like you're, you're really like on the front lines trying to get people out over multi month periods.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And that's an impressive. I mean you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's, it's amazing, man.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from, from legacy people. Take a, like, take More of a step against me and I'd like to see what happens. I'll put this as a, like a call to action for, for anybody who's had firsthand legacy exposure. Please contact me at UAP [e-mail] I, I, my initial, my wish isn't to get people public like to, to make videos about them if they want to. And I've vetted them properly, sure we'll do a project together. But my initial thing is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can act, perform, do actionable things with that testimony.

[Jesse]

And what's the goal at that point? If it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily, but it's to kind of force. Is it like executive action or.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, executive administrative action. I think there can be an impetus where you know, things like the, the administration, they have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight. And that is when a disclosure will occur occur. And I think that is when a disclosure of a non human intelligence and active and active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials. But hey, we're doing this. But the technologies are still held up in the black budget. That's fine. If the US receives a disclosure that non human intelligence is here. It's been interacting with humanity for a long time. Like Carl Nell says, we actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them. But we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern. That is a fine medium for vast majority of the American public. Like there doesn't and I wouldn't even, you don't need to. It's the same thing with kind of what, what most people talk about. You don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology because you don't need bad faith actors creating a flux liner and ramming it into New York and creating it, turning New York into a, like a wasteland for sure.

[Jesse]

But I would say, I don't know, like I think there are trade secrets for example with nuclear weapons, but nuclear physics is like 99% discovery closed physics.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

About like internal mass reduction and gra and like spacetime bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that that absolutely should be given to humanity for sure.

[Jesse]

Like say if you figured out that this like, you know, the quantum gravity stuff is BS and actually gravity is, is not what we think it is because gravity has been this big question in physics for, you know, decades. Huge. For, like, the world. For, like, our ability to, like, you know, kind of manipulate matter and, like, make the world a better, better place and, like, build, you know, engineering and, you know, medical devices and, and medicine and, and. And. And crap, you know, not be stuck on these Boeing 747, 737s with the doors fly off. You know, like, it's, it's crazy. So.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And. Oh, so. I didn't mean to interrupt.

[Jesse]

No, no, no. I was going. I was ranting.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I was just gonna say, and if. Yeah. There's zero point energy systems that have been and could be exploited somehow. That is a, an absolute humanitarian crime to keep from people.

[Jesse]

It is. I mean, do you think we do have that. The implication of a lot of these. You know, Dylan Borland literally said, you know, the most classified thing, most sensitive thing, is not the craft, it's the energy system.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And didn't Jake Barber say, with Ross Colhart he knew about, like, zero point energy systems at the very end of the interview, or like, just insane energy systems? I'm almost, Almost positive he did.

[Jesse]

Wow. I don't know. I. Maybe we talked about anti gravity, me and him. So.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. And maybe anti gravitic systems. It's. I, I mean, I think it's likely. Again, my. I, I have very poor understanding of physics or, or some of this stuff. I just. I like the programs.

[Jesse]

See, I. Yeah, I think my base case is they have some weird effects that they know how to get kind of in little experimental cases. I think the idea that there's a box that could, like, power the Earth in a sustainable way, and it's, like, hidden in some, like, DOE national lab or, you know, one of these, you know, containers that you've mentioned. I think that's ridiculous. I don't think that's true. If it is true, it is a travesty. And like, you know, the Lost Century by Stephen Greer is like, the most important document documentary ever or whatever. But I just, I. I have trouble believing that. I think it's somewhere in the middle where you have these, like, physics effects that they've proven. Like the Byfield Brown effect. Yeah. For example, that I covered, where, like, I'm pretty high confidence that there's a there, there. And you have Carl Nell, who ran a $2 billion P&L, you know, CTO of. Of, like, basically a Northrop subsidiary, saying, you know, watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. Jesse's done a number of podcasts Looking into Townsend Brown and stuff. Some other very interesting, like heretical technologies. So I'd invite people, an unsolicited plug to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. You have the lead electrostatics guy at NASA, Charles Bueller.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse]

Leaving NASA and starting his own company, Exodus Space, based on propellantless propulsion, which he attributes to Thomas Townsend Brown. He's had access to a vacuum chamber for 20 years and like says he's replicated this like, you know, a ton of times. So you have so much evidence to me that that is real. And then even that it's like, are you hiding? You know, I don't, I don't know even the line between that and then the Mark McCandlish. Like alien reproduction vehicles. Like we have workable craft that uses, you know, anti gravity. I don't know. I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think, I think that at least copycat vehicles and like the subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I think that is definitely a thing.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

People often ask the question, if alien reproduction vehicles exist, you know, why are. Why, you know, why is the F16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR3B? Well, I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles there's probably a very select number and the technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly. Kind of what you're talking about, copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the blackest of programs for ISR purposes. You know, I mentioned earlier like the founding of the. And I just, I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs. The NRO was founded to get American intelligence and denied airspaces because we knew that nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured destruction. So there was a huge advantage in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar, Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of, of adversaries and denied airspaces grew like exponentially and important. So I mean if you have a TR3B that can travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on any sort of, of detection system, whether it's radar, whether it's human eyes, and to gather intelligence from 100ft away from a, a Russian ICBM silo, that is invaluable.

[Jesse]

Yeah, seems like it. And I think the B2 stealth bomber was like the last clip classified vehicle that was then declassified. So.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Or am I wrong about B21 Raider? Or was the Raider ever even like inherently classified?

[Jesse]

I don't think it was classified. I think we all know about the B21 Raider and that's like an official thing. So maybe I'm wrong.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

No, I think you might be right because there was the SR71U2A12 ox cart.

[Jesse]

Yep.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And now of course F117 was classified.

[Jesse]

For a little bit.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

All that tonopa test range.

[Jesse]

Yep, yep. And that, that crashed in Bakersfield in 1986 or something. Something. And then people started to. But I think the B2 is the last like classified then declassified. So we've got to have stuff after that. Like come on, it's not just like F22s, F35s, you know we've got to.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Have like the strongest use case are triangles. I mean I, I know numerous people who have, have seen triangles on launch pads at, at Groom Lake or you know, Roger Castle. 150ft away from a giant rotating triangle whose characteristics are almost exactly similar. Similar to TR3B that the triangle story.

[Jesse]

And that's a great thing you broke with Castle like that. That story comes up time and time again there even as like ancillary parts of other stories. Like Randy Anderson who you broke as well like with Area 51. He claimed he saw triangles taking off from Area 51.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Triangles stored at. Yeah. Doe owned lands across the Nevada test and training. Right.

[Jesse]

Yeah. DYLAN Borland triangle the Belgian wave were triangle angles. And I wonder if that you know, had something to do with, you know, maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech like you know, American technology.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I mean Edgar Fouche gets a ton of flack for not producing claims for his testimony. And like I get it, was he going to do a wheel, a TR3 be out. But I still think his testimony has so much incredible juice to it and aspects and things that I think are inherently true. For example, back in 1998 Edgar Fouche was talking about TYR3B first actually operational proto or operational models of TR3B started to kind of fly around in the 90s. From the 70s until onward it was prototype models. The pilots forum are out of the Navy Test Pilot School out at Pax river and the AFFTC out of the Edwards 412 test wing. Which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of Ed, the lieutenant colonel at the 412. So the, the Fouche TR3B is, is mind bogglingly interesting. Additionally he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of Sandia and Lawrence Liver National Lab in my framework of UFO legacy programs with FFRDCs this would make complete sense. That High Trust government owned contractor operated where the technology is still proprietary government property like a reverse engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction would be kept within the FFRDC while contractors like Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Teledyne, Ryan would, would be used as compartmentalized contractors on like the skin of the craft, the construction.

[Jesse]

Wow.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

All that stuff.

[Jesse]

Do we know that Edgar Fell Boucher worked at Area 51? So we have, we have records of that.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes.

[Jesse]

And then anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I'm particularly fond of his mention of the Men in Black with treat, the Tactical Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Team and how that kind of ties into weird things about like the Lichtenstein Crown Prince Hans Adams II talking about Albert Stubblebine and his little TREAT project and stuff like that.

[Jesse]

That. Wait, what is this?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

There's a, there's an old. I gotta find it because this was, this was like a, a, a Hans Adams to Stephen Greer I think email in the 90s or maybe it was reversed. But where Adams. I I have it in my. I think it's my TR3B video on, on triangles. But Hans Adams talking about like a treat existing under Albert Stubblebine who of course was head of US Army INSCOM and was obsessed with psychic spy stuff and also was tasked with the sport activity isa which is now a JSOC unit.

[Jesse]

What did he mean when he said.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Treat like t. Like a, like a Men in Black type thing? My, my brain is, is fuzzy on the exact context around Hans Adam saying Stubble Bine and his TREAT organization. So I have to reference my video for the exact specifics. But it's, that's an interesting thing. Fouche was at Area 51. I'm trying to, to think what else.

[Jesse]

I mean the rotating, the spinning mercury was also mentioned in Die Glocke.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You know the Kamler Stab context where you had rotating spinning mercury according to this Polish journalist Igor Bitkowski and you had Ernest Grawitz and you know, this kind of head of SS medical stuff under Joseph Mengele and, or maybe he was actually Mengele report might have reported to him. I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Might be right.

[Jesse]

And then who else? Oh, Walter Gerlock, this guy studying antigravity in, in the German context at a nearby university was also working on De Glocka. So and then they had spinning mercury as well. And then the vimanas and you know they're spinning mercury there. So maybe, maybe this is the latest instantiation is the TR3B spinning mercury.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Because Fouche was adamant that the TR3B is not anti gravity and its internal mass reduction is to reduce the weight, the mass of the TR3B by I think 89%. And then various propulsion systems propel it and it and can indefinitely loiter go in low Earth orbit. He said that the program was spearheaded by nro, CIA and nsa, which of course to me that fully checks out. I'm trying to think what else? Because his 1998 International UFO Conference or Congress, I can't remember what the acronym stands for. That 1998 presentation is fantastic because Fouche delivers his disclosures as well as like the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on TR3B. And he, Fouche himself stated he had seen the craft twice. Once in Edwards Air Force Base and once somewhere else. I can't quite remember. But you know, if, if I, if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have, it would be the triangles. I like so confident in the triangles.

[Jesse]

Shows up everywhere, really does. What do you think of. Maybe we can, we can wrap up with this crazy story of Dan Barish.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

They.

[Jesse]

I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob lazar, but at S4, Area 51 and there's there these crafts and these being. Who, who, who is he and what did he experience?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So he's an alleged, what microbiologist out at S4 who interfaced with the J Rod, a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at 7, 6 layers under Area 51. S4, under all the weird craft storage and project looking glass and all that weird stuff. And that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go interface with this being and extract its blood for tissue sampling. And he gave like a super long documentary or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. It's either the greatest LARP of all time or maybe there's something to it, or maybe I don't. It's either the greatest LARP of all time or there's. There's something to it.

[Jesse]

Have you seen. I think his name's Brian Jackson.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse]

UFO researcher and he gives a presentation on Dan Barish. There's some weird stories around Dan Barish where I think his like Godfather was Mike McConnell. Who was Mike McConnell? Yeah, director of the NSA. And like there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying in like a freak accident. And I don't know if Brian Jackson's, you know, sure about this or what, but he thinks that it's almost like Mike McConnell takes in Dan Barish is like this like, you know, like godson, like really important person to him and puts places him on all these special projects and almost views him like a son. Like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or something's very strange.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody, I would say with almost like as high secondhand certainty as you could have was involved in the programs.

[Jesse]

This is where things get really weird because John Lear is on, on record saying in an interview like, I helped, you know, get Bob Lazar a job at S4 Area 51 because this was this all part of this limited disclosure plan because we knew that we could, you know, Bob Lazar was discreditable. We could say that he owned a brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff. And he said that he, he was asked to do this at the behest of a Magellan domestic 12 member named Mike McClellan.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

But I wonder if it's Mike McConnell.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It could have been Mike because there's.

[Jesse]

The S4 area 51 connection with Dan Barish.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Which you know, even outside of, of Bob Lazar and Dan Barish, I'm oh like fully convinced that S4 is a real place and not, not on Tonopah, but S4 right by Papoose Lake.

[Jesse]

I am too. Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Dan Barish, his story is so interesting. I, I'm not sure what to, to make of it. Brian Jackson's doing great work on Barish the Night Shift channel with, with Clint and, and Xander Jones. They're, they're super into Dan Barish. And then when I was hanging out with, with Chris Ramsey, he showed me the most bizarre videos of Dan Barish and his wife like vlogs of, of the most weird, possibly agency coded, like what things of all time where, where his wife will like show an Orange Crush soda and almost give like what seems like age agency keywords or something. I don't implying maybe Dan Brish and his wife are, are absolutely bonkers or maybe she's his handler. I, I don't know. The story is so bizarre and there's a lot to chew through. I that's why I'm glad people are doing good work and, and looking through his story because there's actually quite a bit to chew through. And of course, J Rod, the story doesn't just stop there with Dan Barish, but also goes back to, to Bill you House who claimed at Area 51 auxiliary sites there was basically a. A ARV or extraterrestrial vehicle simulator built off the Kingman crash. And that a recovered biologic called J Rod was. Was stored at one of the auxiliary facilities.

[Jesse]

Bill, you has said that before Dan Barish.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know if it was before or after because I think Bill, the primary Bill, you, house interview before he died was. Was mid 2000s and Dan Barish's interview is like 2003, 2004.

[Jesse]

Right? Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So, you know, I. Without knowing those dates for certain, Bill, UAS could have just ripped off Dan Barish. But I, I'm not 100% sure on whose disclosures came first.

[Jesse]

Well, that's interesting. I mean, the fact that they're backing each other up probably. I mean, who knows if it's uncorrelated.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But with all this S4 stuff, this is why we need Project Gravitar.

[Jesse]

Yeah, we. Exactly. This is why Luigi has to go be done, man.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, you and I both have a lot of faith in Luigi. We kind of talked about the project is incredible. You know, I talked about how there are likely like underground sites, SAP f stiff subterranean facilities or dumbs built using disguise, like foliage disguised mountains, maybe even projections. And Luigi painstakingly go tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around S4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where S4 is.

[Jesse]

And that's another thing where like Area 51 was barely probably not ever really talked about before Bob Lazar then S4 definitely wasn't talked about. I think there's some argument that Area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something obscure magazine.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Bob probably didn't have access to that. I think, you know, it's clear that he was there. But then the fact that, you know, if we're going to get any corroboration on S4 from that movie, that's a big deal, right?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And people like some people like to try and say that Bob Lazar ripped off the S4 name off of Tonopah Test Range. Because just east of Tonopah Test Range is a. Is an outdoor site called S4 that Janet Airlines or so Janet Airlines, the famous red striped airline, flies to Area 51, Area 6, which is by the Yucca Mountain flat, which has a Lockheed Martin owned aerial operations facility that does work for D Ditra, for darpa, for like the nro, the nga, which is really weird. Not almost nobody knows about this Area 6. Again, it's on the Yucca Flat. And that's a Lockheed Martin aerial operations facility. It's super, super, super kind of like held lock and key. And then JANET also flies to Tonopah test range. And JANET also drops employees off at Tonopah test range to the area or to the S4 site there. And apparently according to Lazy G Ranch, which is a great blog that actually tracks like FFA flight radar and stuff of Janet Airlines and so forth, employees on the S4 area of tonopates range have to be taken there directly from JANET and cannot drive on site like other employees at Tonopa can. So that, that, that's a bit strange, isn't it?

[Jesse]

And another where we first hear about JANET Airlines. Bob Lazar.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, because Janet J. JANET Airlines, that's not a disputable thing. JANET Airlines is a. You can go on YouTube right now and look up JANET Airlines and look at flights.

[Jesse]

Was that publicly known before? I don't know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I don't know. I, I would go on the website oldest search.com and in quotations do Janet.

[Jesse]

Oh I love that. That's a cool old search.com yeah. Resource.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. To see if there were any early mentions of JANET Airlines.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Because Lazy G Ranch does a very good kind of breakdown. So all across the Nevada test site, whether it's S4, whether it's Area 6, whether it's Tonopa, whether it's Area 51, the infrastructure is there. The underground infrastructure is there to, to house Alfred o' Donnell's craft, to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations. To house Bob Lazar and nine recovered craft. It has the infrastructure to do so.

[Jesse]

Where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think things are bursting at the seams and we get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure? Do you think we get some slow rolled managed thing? Do you think the subject dies out? What do you think happens?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Not going to die out. I disagree with Carl now quite a bit when he says that his, his current, the, the current like carefully managed 2017 originating disclosure campaign is kind of dead. Maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign. But I disagree with, with sort of demeaning comments like that. I think, I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Grush in a driver's seat actively pushing and actively engaged in the topic, things are looking good. I think there's a large, there's been an impetus in public opinion on the topic. More and more people are getting engaged and you know, even, even though there may be some questionable characters in films like the Age of Disclosure and maybe some Opinions I don't agree with and you know, it might be framed a little weird. I do think documentaries like that are going to be great to get the public more in tuned because if people are watching like Marco Rubio, who, you know, UFO heads who are deep in the subject, have known, he's had an interest in the subject since 2017 and has employed his staff at the SSCI and others to go find more about whistleblowers for him. So that guy's a coward for not staking his political career when he's been well known into the subject since 2017. Maybe a coward's a strong word. Maybe just hasn't had an avenue which to affect things. But he, Marco Rubio is known about the topic. But for the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbell's Area 51, Bob Lazar and Flying Saucers, who might have seen the phenomenon by James Fox, maybe they saw Unacknowledged by Stephen Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch Age of Disclosure and they see people like Marco Rubio Talk about UFOs, maybe that's going to spark a lot of new interest in it.

[Jesse]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's going to move the needle on the topic. I think it'll be, you know, if the 2017 New York Times article was like, you know, this big jumping off point or whatever, I think this will be a force multiplier. I think James Fox's new movie moment of contact 2 or whatever will be this massive force multiplier. I think the phenomenon itself, that first movie by James Fox is great. It's just such an amazing survey level overview gateway for so many people.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's what I tell people who are interested if they're still grappling with the question of like, are UFOs real? Yeah, I think the phenomenon's a, a really good place to start.

[Jesse]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating, man. And then what do you think? Like, what's your, you know, fast forward to 10 years from now. What do you hope you're doing?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I, I would, I would love nothing more than to be involved with transition of legacy programs into tradi. Transition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels. I would love to be on teams that goes in inventories, warehouses, housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs, you know, still black budget, still protected by usap, but back under United States control. I'd like to be involved in helping whistleblowers get basically reparations for Maybe their VA disability that's been canned, stuff like that. Help. I would like to be in an affair official capacity helping pry legacy programs from the cult dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman and a lot of these old crones of the old guard who, who don't want to, who are in these old boys club who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to, to under control.

[Jesse]

Do you think like, you know, just going back to like the kind of convoluted org chart or whatever it feels so I mean I'm sure a lot of people watching this are like, like how is that kept secret? Do you think? Maybe it's something like the three body problem where if the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something that like the, the, the org structure is somehow managed by them or not necessarily.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think it's, I think it's very, I think it's. Once you spend enough time looking at it, it's very rational how this is kept such secret.

[Jesse]

How many people in the U.S. do you think know about like know pretty intimately about the ufo?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Intimately? A small number. I'd say hundreds in the, in the low thousands. Okay, maybe a thousand. Okay as far as like defense industrial based contractors who are exposed to metamaterials who don't really know what they are, but it's UFO stuff. Probably a larger number. Maybe. Yeah, 5 to 10,000. So I'd say maybe 200. I'm going to lower my initial estimate of like 200 people with a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge.

[Jesse]

Yep. And do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Probably not. The best and brightest minds are, are the best and brightest minds right now are probably at like actually probably some of them are. They're probably at miter, but also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like Andrell and stuff like that.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But I think that, I think that the, the reason this is kept so secret is, you know, it's, it's a lot more simple than, than people think.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

At every single layer of the programs there are program protection strategies. You already have the US black budget, you already have special. You already have SAPs, CAPs and use apps almost impenetrable. You have, you know, no foreign, no foreign national stuff to even safeguard them further. You have carve out contracts with contractors. You have all sorts of stuff outlined by the 1954 attack Atomic energy Agreement, special nuclear material, foreign intelligence information and transclassified foreign nuclear information. You have personnel rotating from their position within ODNI to the MITRE Corporation or CIA, DSNT to the NRO to the Austat. You have program protection agencies. You have the darpa, sid, you have the doe, oici. You have the CIA. You have the nsa. You have directorates under the CIA. You have the DS and T. You can put the gabosh on Lockheed Martin trying to get rid of materials. You have this rotating personnel agency. You have bigot lists of special access programs dealing with exotic materials, where to keep the program read on access small. You'll have people fulfilling dual roles. For example, this is something interesting. I have been told you might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of accounting or personnel management stuff so they don't have to read in more people. So people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them, but never up. You're not going to have an industrial security guy who is all doing like lab technician work. Furthermore, there was a, from what I understand, there was an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new, on new program incumbents. This would lead to Even folks within FFRDCs like Mitre who are, who are being told, hey, you are working on detecting, exploiting, recovering housing, recovered craft of non human origin, presumably extraterrestrial. And hey, the bodies are stored over there in California, that they're still not briefed into the historical lineage of the programs and historical members who have worked on them. Past successes, past failures, past facilities. So the compartmentalization is obscene. And like David Grush says, it's all carryover from the Manhattan Project. And at the time that might have been a good idea because you might have had Truman, you might have had Eisenhower thinking, hey, we're just getting into the Cold War after World War II. What the heck are we supposed to do with these alien spaceships flying around that have crashed due to high powered radar and we now have their bodies. We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation. And that spiraled out of control. So it is, it is very. And you know, that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations. You got doty your dodies of the world who are Paul Benowitz and people and so forth.

[Jesse]

So I also, I think this is going to sound maybe a little nuts, but I think there's a there there. I think there are people in the like pro UFO Community. Community on, like, Twitter and stuff that almost play up the dangers. Like, there are danger. Like, I, I've been fucked with. You've probably been fucked with. I've had weird shit happen to me. But there are people where it's like the. All they talk about is how dangerous it is to, like, look into this stuff. And I'm like, are you trying to deter, like, more people coming out? That seems like their whole beat. They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want that to be a meme that's, like, embedded in your head if you're ever thinking about going public. Because there have been death. Deaths here and deaths there and there. You know what? There have, There have been some spooky has happened. But I don't know, it's like, if that's, if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again. I sometimes question. I'm like, are you some sort of operative or something? Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Drive clicks. Because. Yeah, same thing I've had. Weird.

[Jesse]

And are you trying to deter the next person from coming out? Because you're, you're talking about how spooky this whole space is.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like, I don't know, it drives engagement people saying, like, oh, you know, this horrible thing could happen, or this. Yeah, scary thing happens. I, I, you know, I. Personally, I know you don't. And I don't. I, I'm not going to dwell in.

[Jesse]

You can't.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

It's, it's, it's, it's useless. You're not going to get any work done.

[Jesse]

No.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

You're not just talking about the danger.

[Jesse]

Be paranoid or whatever.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Because, you know, if you got on a podcast or if, if I got on a podcast and just talked about, I'm investigating UFOs, and it's so dangerous. Like, look at me go. I've been threatened. Nobody really wants to hear that. That's just.

[Jesse]

No, it's solipsistic drama. Nobody gives a. Yeah. It's like, do you want to get closer to the truth? Like, go for it. Do it, you know, or, or not. Like, choose another route or something. But no, there's a lot of, like, you know, it's like, all about me, you know, and it's like, no, it's not.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

To be about the content.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. This is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as, like, you know, I, I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine. And, and I, I understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject. I don't understand the physics, I don't understand the experience or I don't understand the, the biologics. That's. Anybody in this subject who also claims to understand everything is probably, is. Is nonsensical.

[Jesse]

I think. So. I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like, the government clearly has a bunch of factions who, like, know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it and have done some really cool scientific things on, on this topic and often have tried to, like, weaponize this stuff, to be honest, but they don't have some, like, foundational ontological truth that they even have the ability to give you, like, the, you know, know, it's like, what if, like some rogue vigilante team, you know, that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like, we're going to create a little beep boop machine. You're going to like, match the tones in your head. You're going to try to connect, you know, like, that'd be cool. That's what I'm saying. It's like. But that's, you know, stuff can happen in any context, government or not. There are things that they're, you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like, build overnight, like, outside of the government. But like, a lot of this stuff is way more like, you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it, you know, more than you think. It's not this, like, cabal who's, like, controlling. Yeah, everything.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That's why Chris Ramsey had a very poignant tweet recently. It doesn't apply to me because, of course, I operate in my own lane of legacy programs. That's just what I like where he said, I would rather talk to, like, a farmer about UFOs than, like, you know, a former government person. And I think that's so valuable. We have, we have people like that that are focused more on that. The, the human aspect. Yeah, the, the experience aspect. Because I'm, I'm, I'm a. I'm a lost puppy when it comes to.

[Jesse]

Well, so, so some of the most credible, I think witnesses are like, you find them. There's like, they have no, like, digital footprint. You know, they're living in the middle of nowhere. Like, I was in Norway And I, you know, talk, talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house and he's just like never gone public. He doesn't, he barely knows English. Like the most simple man you'll ever meet. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that. And then you know, I think a lot of, on the government side you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever, but then simultaneously to that, like there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign. Like you see AJ from the Y files go on Sean Ryan or you see Chase Hughes or whatever. And it's like these people aren't whistleblowers, they're government propaganda artists. And it's like it is just as lazy, easy to wholesale accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything they're saying.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just because they had to go through.

[Jesse]

Dobbs, just because they had to go through Dobser and because they from like an American like tactical, you know, geopolitical advantage perspective, like don't want to like leak you know, like war secrets to like Russia or China or go to jail for espionage or go to jail for espionage. Like just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower. Or like, like, you know, and then also like what, what about the meta question? So you think they're running a psyop, you know, Chase Hughes or Sean Ryan, like figure out why they're running the site. Like ask the, like figure out what's going on. I think the Scylla in Charybdis is like, you know, you accept every, you go, you know, poor ball Paul Benowitz, but like you accept everything, you know.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Or the other side, which is you, you, you don't take anything seriously, you don't take anything at face value. There's, there has to be some like middle path.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, I think it's, it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self aggrandize liars, people acting on behalf of psyops everywhere and then noble individuals who are just trying to, to speak truths like David Grush, like Dylan Borland for example, who I think is another one. So it's, it's just, it's, it's such a complicated topic. I do, I do have, I know, I know people like Ross Coldheart have been a little pessimistic on, on the sub on the subject of disclosure progression. I do have an optimistic view there that we are heading towards a point of hopefully not like CIA sponsored, limited disclosure of no mention of derivative technologies, but like a more complete picture of our reality and what really interesting RDTNE programs within our own US DoD and IC have been doing for 90 years. I. I hope, I hope maybe, you know, this might seem like a foolish dream, but I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of a legacy of the legacy programs.

[Jesse]

That would be.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

That to me would be. I could think of no more interesting. I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades just writing out the history of legacy program.

[Jesse]

Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So I think maybe one day, maybe one day. Far from it though. I have just as much of a. I just have my own people of the puzzle.

[Jesse]

We, you know, just, just promise that if they hit you up and say, hey, you can be our official, you know, historian, that that is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the, the programs.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Just because that's kind of what I, what I stand against.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope, I hope that happens. And I do think, you know, even the people trying to manage the thing or fight, flood the zone or whatever, often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest and eyeballs and like young people are getting more interested and that has its own momentum that's just gonna snowball. And like, it's the. It's honestly like a classic, like intelligence failure is like you try to pull off these triple bank shots and, you know, they end up kind of backfiring.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah. Perfect example of there is Stephen Green street trying to. Trying to take down David Grush essentially, essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered from ptsd and that backfires. And, and that that sort of stuff is.

[Jesse]

Yeah, no, not work out very well. It's so bad. And like, guys, I think he was like, had a contract with the DOE or something at some point.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Green street has a contract with the dod, I think Department of State, where he said himself he was doing soft propaganda videos for like foreign nationals trying to get them, like, trying to get them interested in basically US patriotism and nationalism.

[Jesse]

So, yeah, that's a little weird. And he's constantly trying to provoke a Reaction, I think, you know, and on that note, of people attacking David Grush, you have a guy, I think his name is Basic Chris on Twitter, something like that. I forget his actual name because I don't think he's worthy of a mention here.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

But he.

[Jesse]

He went off on David Grush. Well, first I did an interview with Danny Jones, and I talked about PTSD that David Grush suffered from, and I talked about a friend who was, like, you know, mortared while he was, you know, in Afghanistan deployed. This guy was pounding the pavement on how David Grush. How, you know, I was lying or making this up and that David Grush just had a friend who committed suicide or something later, and that was the cause of his ptsd. And then somebody finally interjected, I never engaged with this guy, but somebody interjects, and they go, you know, hey, man, actually, this did happen. He talked about two different friends, and he goes, oh, sorry. It's like, dude, I mean, like, do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like, you know, served our country?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You think that's cool? Like, that's.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So it's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered peace PTSD from his service in Jordan, and once he got out of the armed services, he, you know, he turned to substances to deal with the pain.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

And he got clean because he's a. He's a strong man, and he. He got his life back under him. But because he struggled with addiction issues, because of the horrific things he's faced in life, that means his testimony is untrue. Is the same people who say, oh, Dylan Borland looks nervous, so therefore, he must be, like, neurodivergent, and therefore he's being tricked and preyed upon.

[Jesse]

If he. Who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying? No, I think it's disputed, despicable. And I also. I want to flip the frame because a lot of people talk about grifters in the UFO space. There are grifters, I think one we talked about on the show, Stephen Greer, and. And, you know, he, like, will do CE5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it. And it's, you know, it's kind of ridiculous.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

I think Those tickets were 9k for the CE5 group.

[Jesse]

Totally messed up. Preying on people's credulousness. Like, not cool. Right. But the grifters, at least you understand the free market incentives to grift. You're like, oh, you're sensationalizing to make.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

You're just as bad as, you know, any random used car salesman or somebody with, you know, some online course or whatever where they're totally skimping you on what they're giving you, value wise. Like, I get what's going on there. What I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier, there is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all the people coming out. They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And no one pays them. So who is. You're not making money. Nobody's even engaging with their content. So, like, if you're, why are you. You feel like, it feels like you're operationalized, like, who is actually paying you? Where are the incentives? You show me the incentive, I'll show you the action.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Either that, yeah, it's that or they get a. And probably it could be both, for all we know, but also like a dopamine rush from giving a counterpoint to, you know, crap on American Heroes.

[Jesse]

It's. It's so weird. And like, I, you know, if, if you're, if you're. I actually am pro. People being skeptical of, you know, if like a testimony comes out, you feel like it's not corroborated, great. Like, you know, come at it. I actually think, you know, the D. Dean Johnson thing, you know, if, if given that he didn't know, have the knowledge of, like, the fact that, you know, Malm Grin had the CIA background was actually like, decently, like, rigorously, like, written up. Although I think it's like totally wrong on all the details. But like, their room for skeptics are good. Like, I've had Mick west on my show. I think, you know, he's seems like increasingly just like a bad actor with the Beatrice stuff. But, like, I do want skeptics. Like, skeptics are good. But, like, be a good skeptic. Don't go after the person's service when, like, that's obviously like just real. The service is real. Go after the testimony and say, like, you know, we think that's kind of weak or something.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Counter points of their argument and testimony and then let's. And then debate those.

[Jesse]

Yes, but like that. Yeah, don't go ad hominem. Like, if you're, if you're going ad hominem to that extent that consistently without any clear incentive to, like, you're not getting paid from a free market perspective and you're spending all day doing this stuff, you have to like who, who's actually paying you?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Like, yeah, it's, and you know, worst case they're just trolls who like sowing discourse on social media and, and infiltrating like a UFO Twitter, which obviously there's a lot of different personalities, a lot of people pushing different things and just going obviously completely anti, against the grain and crapping on people that many people are interested in their testimony and studying and. It's a weird space.

[Jesse]

It's definitely a weird space. Well, yeah, we should focus on the aspirational feature which is hopefully we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Yeah, please.

[Jesse]

The world gets disclosure and you get to write the official UFO A legacy program history. UAP Group. This is always such a pleasure. I always learn so much from you. And please everybody go subscribe to the channel. Uap Gerb. Anything else you want to kind of promote here?

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Gosh, I don't know.

[Jesse]

Whistleblowers, your email.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

So anybody wants again, if you have firsthand exposure to UFO legacy programs, please email my protonmail uap [e-mail] again. The, the, the goal isn't to get you on, on on camera or just blindly feature your testimony, but let us talk, let me take your testimony. I mean I will fly to you in, in, in person if your, if your story is credible enough and undergoes a strict vetting process I've done before, take your testimony, record it and try to get it to the proper folks. And, and if, if you've been met with reprisals, record those as well to try and get those to people who can assess those, those reprisals and hopefully get that solved. It, it's not a joking thing, it's not a serious thing. This is a very serious thing. If you've had firsthand exposure, please, please contact me there.

[Jesse]

Absolutely subscribe to his channel too. It's like the most hardcore best UFO channel online. Also his Patreon.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Oh yes, please. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't have the time to do like exclusive Patreon stuff nor do I want to gatekeep any of my stuff. So the Patreon, I don't gatekeep the, any content. It's only to support the channel if you think it's worth something. If you don't support it on Patreon, please go like and subscribe the projects.

[Jesse]

The guy's making matter what, three hour deep dives, you know, just like, like a fire hose of information. So just, you know, that deserves in any other context, you'd have to pay for that. And, you know, you're nice enough to just put it. Put it out, because this is a topic that I think it's. It's probably hard to kind of, you know, put behind a paywall, but, yeah, I. I think you. You deserve as much sponsorship as you can get.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Well, thank you, man. So.

[Jesse]

Yeah, man. All right.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Thank you so much, Jesse.

[Jesse]

It's been a blast.

[Sammy (UAP Gerb)]

Appreciate it, sir.

[Jesse]

Absolute.