The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive"

Podcast: American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Host: Jesse Michels
Guest: Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)
Date: February 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on an immersive journey into the Archives for the Unexplained (AFU) in Sweden, guided by journalist and renowned UFO archivist Klaas Svahn. Described by host Jesse as a "real-life Swedish Fox Mulder," Svahn has spent decades gathering, analyzing, and preserving what is now the world’s largest UFO archive. The conversation spans rare physical evidence, Europe's forgotten UFO waves, absurd and high-strangeness cases, and the limits of scientific and photographic proof.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Archive: A Massive Global Repository

• Scope of AFU: 16-room facility housing 22,000+ Swedish case files — plus files from Japan, Russia, and beyond. (01:38)
  • "It's not only a UFO library, it's about the unknown." — Klaas Svahn [00:49]
• International Breadth: AFU contains unique records from myriad countries, including rare Soviet KGB documents. (71:25)
• Preserving History: Svahn notes many original files and artifacts now exist nowhere else.

Iconic Cases & Physical Evidence

• Physical Debris:
  • Tungsten carbide fragment (1957, Vedder, Sweden): Recovered by carpenters after a close-encounter, it was analyzed and found to be of Earthly origin but was "so hot, so it was really burning them" — its anomalous heat remains unexplained. (07:21)
  • "It was in front of the car, and it's impossible, really...it must have been quite the heat" — Klaas Svahn [07:56]
  • Asteroid fragment: Svahn uses this as an example of how impact debris can be unequivocally identified, in contrast to the elusive nature of true UFO physical evidence. (08:23)
• Ghost Rockets:
  • 1946 Scandinavian wave: 1,400+ cases of torpedo or cigar-shaped objects crashing into lakes, never recovered, prompting international investigation (including Eisenhower’s top general, James Doolittle). (03:00; 53:00)
  • Contemporary investigation: Ongoing efforts to recover potential objects from lakes using sonar, radar, and physical dives; "We have radar returns that something is in the mud" (51:29).
  • "It’s always lakes—never land. Not a single object has crashed on land in Sweden or Norway." — Klaas Svahn [55:56]

Witness Testimony and the Limits of Proof

• Betty Hill (of Barney & Betty Hill abduction fame):

  • Svahn interviews her and discovers she had an earlier nearby crash/retrieval experience, recovered debris, and buried it in her backyard. (03:55; 37:41)
  • "Everything is still out there in the garden...You must dig there." — Klaas Svahn [40:19]

• High-Strangeness Cases:

  • Absurd encounters (e.g., beings in "Superman"-like silver suits rummaging through scrap; plus sign-shaped craft; floating "box-like" entities)—highlighting Jacques Vallée’s "absurdity" theory that UFO phenomena intentionally evade categorization. (19:19; 20:11)
  • "Absurdity is the word, you know. That's a key word. It's really absurd." — Klaas Svahn [20:11]

• Photographic Evidence:

  • 1970s/80s photos: Almost all admit later to faking, except one "visually appealing" shot still unresolved. (107:30–110:02)
  • McMinnville photo: Once considered credible, new digital analysis suggests possible string hoax. (110:06)
  • "It's not the picture, it's the story ... If you meet with people, you can get the facts you need." — Klaas Svahn [109:45]

The UFO Enigma: Physical, Psychological & Societal Dimensions

• Physical vs. Non-Physical:

  • Many reports point to solid craft tracked on radar, but others leave no trace, suggesting not all UFO phenomena are material. (10:48; 11:32)
  • "The UFO enigma to me is much more complex. I’m not sure really that we are dealing with ... physical objects all the time." — Klaas Svahn [10:48]

• Hotspots:

  • Hessdalen, Norway: Frequent, scientifically studied light phenomena, with high local witness rates.
  • Dalarna (Sweden), Gotland, and others—though no place guarantees a sighting. (12:32)
  • In Hessdalen, “you're the pariah if you haven't seen a UFO.” (15:04)

• Human Consciousness and the UFO Phenomena:

  • Svahn and Amar discuss the possibility that witness expectations and the “trickster” element may interact (“the phenomena almost wants to cover itself”), referencing Jacques Vallée, John Keel, and others. (20:15–21:16; 29:51)
  • "The human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomena." — Klaas Svahn [30:23]

• Challenges of Research:

  • Difficulty of constructing a unifying scientific theory or model. Progress is slow; "We are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today, but the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger." (75:01)

Government & Military Involvement

• Military Encounters:
  • Case of Swedish military helicopter nearly colliding with a "ghost rocket"—witnessed by pilots and confirmed by radar returns, newly declassified in 2026. (57:15–60:00)
    • "I can see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths." — Klaas Svahn [59:19]
  • Radar/sonar cases: Repeated examples of objects tracked on military radar, sometimes performing impossible maneuvers (right-angle turns).
    • "Six people at the radar station ... see the object on the radar screens ... it's doing 90-degree angles." (64:25)
• Crash Retrievals, Government Secrecy, and Disinformation:
  • Svahn is skeptical of widespread crash retrievals in Scandinavia but concedes it's plausible elsewhere.
  • Discusses difficulties in accessing security documentation and the role of disinformation and apparent intelligence agency manipulation in UFO research (101:09; 101:51)

Fringe, Cults, and Exposé

• Contactees, Hoaxes, and Cults:
  • Svahn expresses skepticism toward classic contactee stories (Adamski, Billy Meyer) and exposes faked photographic evidence, time-travel hoaxes, and dubious characters (103:54–105:01).
  • "He used even pictures from books ... I have that book myself; you compare it, it's exactly the same picture." — Klaas Svahn [104:58]
  • UFO cults are described as a persistent phenomenon in Sweden, usually led by charismatic men, with predominantly female followings. (107:03)

Philosophical and Historical Reflections

• Knowledge vs. Belief:
  • Svahn positions himself not as a believer but as a rigorous, stubborn researcher: "It's okay to believe, but I want to know." [73:11]
  • Describes the exponential nature of questions arising from each new discovery. (74:19)
• Philosophical Influences:
  • Inspired by researchers like Jacques Vallée, Chris Orbeck, and John Mack—but critical of simplistic ET hypotheses and overreliance on photographic "proof."
  • "The more you know, the less you know." — Amar Kandeel [74:19]
• Researchers Must Hurry: Urges importance of interviewing first-generation witnesses before their stories are lost. (111:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today, but the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger ... That is moving into the future." — Klaas Svahn [75:01]
• "Absurdity is the word … that’s a key word. It’s really absurd." — Klaas Svahn [20:11]
• "It's not the picture, it's the story." — Klaas Svahn [109:23]
• "If you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture." — Klaas Svahn [109:51]
• "Six people at the radar station ... see the object on the radar screens ... it's doing 90-degree angles." — Klaas Svahn [65:10]
• "In Hessdalen, you're the pariah if you haven't seen a UFO or something." — Amar Kandeel [15:04]
• "I have loads of [Billy Meyer's] pictures ... some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on the table." — Klaas Svahn [104:23]

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Segment Timestamps

• Opening / Introduction (01:07–05:00): AFU archives; international files; archive’s origins.
• Physical Evidence & Notorious Cases (06:05–12:21): Tungsten fragment, asteroid; Ghost rocket recoveries.
• Hotspots & Witness Polling (12:32–16:00): Hessdalen, Dalarna, Gotland; high rates of sightings.
• Absurd & High-Strangeness Encounters (19:19–22:31): Beings in silver suits; "absurdity" and "trickster" elements.
• Photographic and Physical Proof (22:52–27:12): Review of best-known UFO photos; limitations of evidence.
• Scientific and Consciousness Challenges (27:25–32:01): Limits of reductionism; consciousness and UFOs.
• Military Evidence & Declassification (57:15–65:25): Helicopter close-call, radar cases; crash/lake recoveries.
• Philosophy, Disinformation, and Research Methods (101:09–112:05): Handling disinfo; methodological rigor; lost opportunities.
• Personal Experience & Legacy (91:56–96:59): Svahn's own sighting; the necessity of skepticism and discipline.

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Flow & Tone

The conversation is both grounded—driven by Svahn’s meticulous, skeptical, and science-fluent approach—and deeply curious, open to the complexities and ambiguities of UFO phenomena. There is warmth, humor (especially around famous hoaxes), and a steady theme of awe at the historical and existential scale of the UFO enigma.

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In sum:
This episode is an in-depth, highly credible, and at times philosophical exploration of the limits of UFO evidence, cultural and psychological dimensions, and the painstaking efforts of researchers like Klaas Svahn to sift signal from noise in one of the strangest—yet most universal—mysteries of our age.

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Transcript

[Host Jesse]

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[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

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[Host Jesse]

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[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

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[Host Jesse]

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[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

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[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

So how many countries do you have files from?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And they went out in the field and brought back debris.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

From this crashed object? They were standing on the other edge of this carriage and they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. She was eight meters from them.

[Host Jesse]

Meet Klaus Vaughn, journalist, author, and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real life Swedish Fox Mulder. And that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 19. Since the 1970s, Spahn has not only reported on the phenomena for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades building, organizing and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive. The Archives of the Unexplained. This 16 room building houses detailed witness reports, photographs, audio recordings, radar data, video and original first generation documents that no longer exist and anywhere else.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Time travel. There's a time travel section. What is this? Brown and Buridge Townsend Brown? Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I went to Eureka, California. I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association. What?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

There's something very interesting about them. They were new. More than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s.

[Host Jesse]

In this episode, we go over a half century of overlooked evidence. Radar tracked objects executing impossible right angle turns. Military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft. Sonar and radar returns. And of course, covert European UFO crash Retrieval operations. We discussed the Swedish Ghost rocket craze of the 1940s. A swarm of at least 1400 documented rocket and cigar shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging into water. A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit. And American President Eisenhower to send his top general James Doolittle to investigate. Klaas Svann isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right. Interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent all lot of time with Betty Hill. Of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Kloss dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris which she went on to bury in her backyard. Where it still might be to this day.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

That is moving into the future.

[Host Jesse]

This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yes. Yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But I don't want to talk about it.

[Host Jesse]

I brought my buddy Amar Kandeel from yes Theory to the archives and we had a blast.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What is your top UFO photo?

[Host Jesse]

Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Klaas Svan.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ignition sequence size. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that.

[Host Jesse]

Their existence cannot longer be denied.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Class, we're back. Thank you for being here again. Thank you for having us. Rather. We're at the beautiful archives of the unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents. And so. Yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store. And you've compiled all of this?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We started 1973.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You started in 1973?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We've been around for a while.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, that's right.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What is that?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

This one? It's metallic. A piece of metallic is from Sweden. An island called Vedder, northeast of Stockholm.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

In 1957, two Carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night. Really? Because they were doing Some work on Monday, this was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east, moving in front of the car, making a U turn, and suddenly hanging in front of the car, which was totally died. So the car stopped, and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object, and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look at this on this road. And they found this object there. And it was hot, so they couldn't really hold it in their hands. It was so hot, so it was really burning them. And the car started and then drew away. After many years, this was analyzed, and I also analyzed it, and it's tungsten or wolfram carbide. This is very earthly. It has every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957. But tungsten is a very good leader of heat. So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. So the object affected it. So it was so hot. So it corroborates the story of the two carpenters.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So it's evidence. And the car couldn't have made this tungsten hot, you think? It was definitely there.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It was in front of the car, and it's impossible, really. Wow. It must have been quite the heat to do that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So that's interesting.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Can I hold it?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It does feel oddly, you know, very, very smooth. But I'm sure that is also a natural element of tungsten.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It is. It is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. This is actually from outer space. This is not earthly, but it is prosaic. What is this?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

This is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's 1 km. So it's a huge crater. You can see it from space. It's very, very heavy. It's 99% iron and a little nickel and some other elements. Wow. So you can tell if something like this. And from the beginning, it was huge, of course, like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city. Of course, there were no cities 50,000 years ago. But today the city would be gone, vanished.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

How much can I feel it? How much of UFO crashes do you think are. This is amazing. It's so heavy. How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events? Nuts and bolts material gets left behind. You can have a crash retrieval team going, looking for it and finding a thing and Trying to reverse engineer it. Do you think a high percentage of them are?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, we did.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We're good witnesses. I mean, it landed and it sank.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And in 1946, as we talked about the Ghost rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom. Not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the weather piece. So it is really strange, I know, that some of those UFOs as we're talking about could just vanish without a trace.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you know of any? Because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders, you know, in the US there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, Roswell is like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of 1947, July. But the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs, okay, citizens really finds actual material themselves?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Not here in Scandinavia. And the thing is, I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often? They're traveling presumably through space, and they are crashing not all the time, but quite often. I mean, the UFO enigma to me is much more complex. And I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like these physical objects all the time. We are. From time to time I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that traveling huge speeds over Sweden. And of course they are physical, but some are not.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So where in between could we distinguish? This is one of our UFO hardware. This is something else. Yeah, I'm not sure.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Not here in Sweden, that I'm sure about. But in 1946 we had. They were out. The government sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You showed us photos.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But do you think in the US there's an official program around these things?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I'm not sure. I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden. Really? Of course, the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, you'd have to dedicate resources to even try.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, absolutely. It could be Chinese, could be Russian, it could be something completely different. But I think your authorities would be interested.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You know, people know of Heselden in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, Helsthal is interesting from many aspects. First, in the 1980s, early 1980s, we and UFO Norway had this huge expedition there and we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is, nowadays in Hessdalen, when you see something on a scientific instrument or the light, the thing is coming up from the ground going upwards, never the other way. We have in Sweden, Dalarna, which is in the middle of Sweden, where we have had several waves of UFO observations. We have a place on the island of Gotland called Martibu, where people go to a certain stretch of a road, watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there. We have traveled around and drove our own cars. And they are shouting, oh, that is. That is the object. But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something. Except Tess Dalen, if you stay long enough.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So that's really the UFO hotspot?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's been that for many years. And I think is about Helen. Even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, if you talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well, with crafts and sometimes even bees.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, we were there and it was not. It was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that lived there had experienced things, like upwards of 80, 85, 90% of people. And that was all of the report. And everybody had family members and they'd experience things. It was ubiquitous, pretty much.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Several people in Norway, they have experience. Experienced stuff like that, seeing things, but

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

they don't dare to tell it because

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

they are afraid to being chastised. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I know when. When you speak to other people, people. Have you seen anything unnatural?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yes, yes.

[Host Jesse]

But.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh, I don't want to talk about it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to poll people, they would say, you know, maybe 10, 15% would be open about. You know, it would be. It's the opposite in Hessalyn, you're the pariah if you haven't seen a UFO or something.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes and 10% of them had seen something.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's remarkable.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And the interesting thing Is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And presumably 1 million Swedes. 10% of around 11 million. Wow. I've seen something. Wow. And last. Last night, I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter. And she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about Something happened in 1971. In October 1971. And she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden. It was daylight and the train was coming. And this is so strange. You know, this is typically strange for me.

[Host Jesse]

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[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

know we sent you on this train. There was a carriage with scrap metal pile. She saw two men on that looking for something. They have some, like, backpacks. But it was not backpacks. It was. They had like suits. Like the Superman. Yeah, but one color only. Silver color. With something protruding out of their back like that. And she watched them. And suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage looking at her. And they were holding their hands on the Belt with a small box and they had very tight helmets, small, small heads and some gloves. And she was so frightened. She was eight meters from them, just very, very close. And suddenly, I mean, she went away. And they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. And she turned around and you could see they were still working, looking for something on this.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow, interesting. Super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, she started to read about UFOs and try. And nowadays she's over 70 years of age and if you look on YouTube and whatever. But she asked me what I thought and I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings. Because it's not typical, you're right. So they are so different, so diverse.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, for me it's. For me, you really take a look at all of the spectrum. You will find that that's what Jacques

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Vallee, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absurdity is the word, you know, that's a key word. It's really absurd.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And so it's so absurd that it pre stigmatizes itself. Like the story you just told me of mental in a garbage pile, seemingly doing the most low tech thing, wearing the most high tech suits, teleporting from can to can or whatever. Sounds insane, but I'm sure that happened, you know, and so that seems to be this very common theme, this trickster element. Do you think that that's at play here? This idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself? In a way.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

In a way I agree with you because there are so many high strangeness cases. So the other ones you say, oh, this is the typically wicked Rebirth alien. They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you really dig into all this, the pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories when you

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

were talking about the sighting, where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding and the suit, it reminded me of a friend, of a friend's account. So my best friend's sister's best friend, she was in Mexico, in Baja California, I think. And just like sunset, taking photos of she was drinking, like, a Corona beer. She's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind. And maybe half an hour later, as she goes through the photo. As she goes through the photo, she sees something very, very similar to what this woman did.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

She drew it. So she was very scared to show the photo, but she drew.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

She drew it for me. And then we were going to get on the phone so that she can show me the photo just, like, via zoom. And I think she had cold feet. And I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but that's what she says, and she just says, like, she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos. And again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo of. She didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, that is so interesting, because some of those aliens are carrying equipment. Yeah. Some are not. Yeah.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

And it's literally like what you were describing, just.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing. That's so crazy with the blow backpack and the jumpsuit and that.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

It was like some sort of a metal detector thing, and they're on the beach in Mexico.

[Guest or Expert (discussing Billy Meyer)]

It's like, what?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So weird. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's absurd. That's absurd.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Show time. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of, in this case, an amazing ufo. This is Klaus's new book, Files of the Unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo? I mean.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, it's taken by Hannah McRoberts. We should see if we can find it in here so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which. There it was. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean, look at that.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So this is Vancouver island, and you've met her, Right? I talked with her on telephone.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So what's the story behind this photo?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Well, she was out driving together with her husband, and she stopped. This mountain is quite well known. This was October 8, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on and got the. Because it's an old film. This is not a detail film. It's an old camera. She found that there was something up in the air, and it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think this photo is real?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times and I mean she didn't fake it anyway, I think she's really doing this because she's curious about it and she don't understand.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying vibes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely not. She helped us with a picture and no problem with that. I mean it's like this very famous picture, you know, this with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress and her father out in this moor. There were only them, his wife, little girl took the picture and when he got it back from the photographer, the business, he could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed it said, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody standing behind her is called the astronaut because this looks like an astronaut. And nobody knows how it ended up there out on this morgue. Only them, only three of them. Free Horizon. Whoa.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What are the most. Because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in the US of abductees or experiencers, over 50% experience humanoid creatures. So creatures that seem to be bipedal, walking upright, almost similar to humans in many ways. Is that similar to what you experience in Scandinavia?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean we get stories from people that have seen box like entities floating. So you get it all. If you are into this for a couple of decades, wow. You will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So interesting. So yeah, alien is such a simplistic, it's such an oversimplification, I think. So the idea that's like, oh, we're not alone, they're out in space and

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

they've come here makes us understand it. We want to understand strange things.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes, well, it's true. I mean when you look at, you know, it's funny, everybody references in the US the 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, OS app or whatever, the program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012 and before that you had Bigelow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. They're poltergeists. There's like a werewolf. And that's how some of the anti UFO people try to show they think it's like all crazy or Whatever. But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than. And you can't memeify it into this simple. It's just a gray alien and they're from Zeta Reticuli and they're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of whack a mole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Good summary, I think. I mean, you must really look very broad at this and that's why I have you here. It's not only UFO library, it's about the unknown.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So how do you make. Because you have done this herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described, it's almost like Descartes demon, where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see, is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places and that. It's like, how do you progress in a field where it's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans? You know, how do you, how do you progress?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It is very difficult to do that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So most ufologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject. And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Right.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most ufologists are saying, okay, this is not interesting. I'm looking at that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And I think that's not the way forward really.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But even beyond that, like I look at, like, you know, Jacques Vallee, who we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, French godfather of a lot of modern years, but amazing guy and, you know, on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge. He, you know, like if you read some of his early books, like Invisible College or something from 1975, are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, I don't think so.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I don't think so either.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

That's sad, really.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It is.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And it's, it's really impossible to get further because it's so huge.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And there is no really good scientific approach to this yet. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Would one new scientific model involve, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer and then you have the observed and there's, you know, clear distinct separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely. I met with a friend of mine who is a doctor and he's also very much into the human consciousness research. He's done research on twins and see what happens if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected. And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. Wow. And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomena.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It has to be.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And I think so as well.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology and that sort of thing?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Because if there is some sort of mind matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what. What we see.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. We know so little about what's inside our heads.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Gray mass. But that's not the answer.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think? You know, when you speak to Jacques Vallee, he says, you know, I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet, because I felt that could be something much more interesting.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space. Time itself, where time seems like. Time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all or considered?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, a scientist to approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part. There need to be a group of scientists and ufologists or whatever doing this together. Time travel.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Time travel. There's a time travel section. No.

[Host Jesse]

What?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Time and time travel. What? Time loops and space twists.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Let's see if I can find a random steel and stuff. Maybe I have no, not a clue. Or now I will crush.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But crush some more.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You can spare me. This is the NASA scientist.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, wow, dude.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So you can see here, if you read the labels here.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Corliss.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. William Corlys, he wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Only about enigmas.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So here you can see psychology working papers. Then he passed away and I contacted his widow and it took me a couple of years.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Was he at all, like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs? It was just a hobby.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, that's the hobby. This is what they look like.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Biological anomalies. Mammals. Oh, my God. This guy's a genius.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Who is this guy?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He was a genius.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

This is amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We corresponded for many years. Then he passed. Wow. And then I wrote to his state with his son, and his wife was 90 plus, and she started to compile everything in order for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the us.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, she's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What? That's the most interesting UFO organization. Because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new. More than intelligence. In certain cases in the 40s.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

About stuff.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They were first. First.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So what? What's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, so.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, it's so. And then they had. They had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I went to Eureka, California. I met with this guy in his garage and we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And you have Tesla and.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

What is this?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Brown and Burridge?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's probably correspondence.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Who's Brown?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Maybe Thompson Brown. I'm not sure. If you take a look, I don't. I don't know.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

The Immortal Cell Brown? Oh, it's. Oh, Townsend Brown.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Yeah, you can take a look and see what this is.

[Host Jesse]

It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo New Year. No phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

A ufo.

[Host Jesse]

And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an Android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just $79. Six fits sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026, me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft, but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order, plus free shipping at ThePerfectGene NYC. Or just Google the perfect gene and use code JESSE. 15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at ThePerfectGene NYC with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you your khakis and get the perfect gene.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

T.T. brown Electrokinetic Generator. Here, look. That's amazing. Patent office for the Electrokinetic Generator well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring. But I'm not sure if they are functioning. But I think they are still left in Eureka.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really? What apparatus?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really? What? Yeah, I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple of months ago.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

The man in Master Gravity.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What did you think?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I think it was fascinating.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's fascinating, right?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Isn't he the most interesting man?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So many mysteries around him.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So many mysteries around him.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He was onto something. I think so.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I think so, yeah. I think there's something very interesting about him.

[Host Jesse]

Townsend Brown.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown.

[Host Jesse]

There's a guy named Townsend Brown.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay, okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Townsend Brown.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I want to look that up.

[Host Jesse]

The Holy Grail of physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long sought link.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Or I'll go and I catch the wind. Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I grew up with the Bonnie and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What was your new view on her when you met with her?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, well, I was most ufologists and if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter. Deviant had. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but she was really. And not only that, she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her. I think it was sister whatever it was a relative. And something came crossing the sky and crashed. And they went out in the field and brought back debris.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

From this crashed object?

[Guest or Contributor (brief closing remark)]

A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s. I was over here in Maine visiting with a family and it was a Warm night. And we're sitting outdoors on the porch when we saw what we thought at that time was a place very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching, exploded midair and burned. Now, we said, you know, we seen a plane blow up. We turn on the radio, we turned on the tv. Nothing. Well, up to my. By my mother's, my nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky. And he watched it, and when it cooled off, he got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me and said, we don't know what it is. Maybe I have some friends at the university. Maybe you could get someone to analyze her. So I had all these pieces, and I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them. So just before. About four days before we left to go on the trip, Barney said, what's that stuff above the top shelf? Why don't you throw it away? We could use the shelf. But I was having some fill put in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard, and when they dumped the sand, they covered them. About three days later, we go on the trip.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really? Betty Hill.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And she brought it before her encounter.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden. If you.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So we gotta go to her house.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You must dig there.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I will.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. It's not her house anymore, so.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But it's in New Hampshire.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's in Portsmouth.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

In Portsmouth, New Hampshire. No way.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So that story you can listen to at Taya Fuel's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this as well. So the bottom line is she was very much into UFOs.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's fascinating. We gotta go dig.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And not the single you follow. This really cares about this. They don't want to know this.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show, so maybe.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Contact her.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Say, hey, who are the residents of the current house? This is. I know. We can go dig and find this thing.

[Host Jesse]

You're wearing this. Epic. Betty and Barney Hill.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, geez. Oh, geez.

[Host Jesse]

First abductees, 1961.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

No, I know his granddaughter. Yeah, she.

[Host Jesse]

Angela Hill.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Right.

[Host Jesse]

She's a UFC fighter.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

Yeah.

[Host Jesse]

So cool.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Crazy.

[Host Jesse]

What does she say?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over. You don't tell Joe Rogan. Grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's Mad. That's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say. And she told a very interesting story. And also, when she draw the object, to me, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim like a hat.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And so I said she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake. And we were there all the day and talked with her. But it complicated the story. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Just for the audience. The core story is in 1961, Betty and Barney Hill. They were an interracial couple, and they were ACLU activists, actually. And they were on a road trip from. I think it was like, Niagara Fall, or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire. And on the way, they see this craft and it's flying around. And I believe there's audio. And we'll play the audio for the audience. But, like, Barney starts to, like, go after the sorcerer. Like, almost like it's like he's locked into it. And it's like she's afraid and wants to keep going.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And then he's very afraid after that, so he don't want to pursue it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I'll think in my head, just pull the binoculars away. God, give me strength. All right, pull him down, pull his

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

binoculars down and run.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

God. It stands for God give me a strength. I gotta get away. So anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli. They have these uniforms on, these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft reluctantly, I believe. Barney then admits that samples were taken, like, gametes were taken, sperm cells from him. So it almost felt like some sort of experiment being done on them.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They checked on his teeth, and there were false teeth because he had false teeth.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah, interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And they came running into Betty and asking, oh, what? What's that?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know, right?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, but they're in. In that account. It almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like it's like this routine thing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with a needle. And that was old here at that point, really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do Alien From Cetera Ticoli use a method that is ancient?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What do you think I think this

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Later hypnotic regression, they never really remembered it in the waking.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So what do you think they had an encounter with?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's very hard to tell, but I think that all those stories are much more complicated. Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. She told Barney about her interest in that, and he didn't like that at all.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them, when in fact what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said, we're from Zeta Reticuli, that does point.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Well, they didn't say that because that was the star map.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

She drew a star map. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And that star map is. Of course, you can do that with lots of stars.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Right.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So it's not.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But they said we're from another star system.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

She asked about this map on the wall, and I told her that this was commercial lines where they were traveling to make business, really.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I believe. Have you read American Cosmic by Diana Pasulka or are you familiar with it? So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits playing at that time. Playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter that Benny and Barney Hill had show.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And the crest metal debris in her cupboard.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That had happened before.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

There were so many things before. So we cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Right. Well, Pasulka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well. So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by. Yeah. Maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You know, also another weird fact about that case is C.D. jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran Psychological Warfare and was very involved in MK Ultra and then went on to, I believe, give the supporter film, which is the, you know, film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time magazine because he's very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the Psychological Strategy Board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Okay.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So interesting cycle. So it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the elite of American warfare operations. You know, a guy who's very high up in government going to visit these two abductees. So strange. In 1961?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I don't know.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's not easy, you know, it's not

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

easy, but I think we have to find that artifact.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are there any other objects?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, we have here in Sweden. We have up in the north. There was a guy who said that he was a young boy, he met these craft and aliens outside his house and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet, and he hid it on the ground and we went there together with him trying to find it. Wow. But we couldn't find it, really. No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Is there anything, have you ever found any objects that you think are.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, we haven't. The only one that I showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bonafide smoking gun thing like that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you believe that humans have in their possession, on the civilian side, objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with? Because, as you know, Jacques Vallee publishes his mailing address online.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

People will mail him pieces. And recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan experience. And, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach. And this fisherman.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Magnesium.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratio.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It also read that there were such things at that time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques? It just feels a little crazy, but.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And why do you build a spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really. It's not very good to travel in. Oh.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Okay.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Because magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, you know, my belief is the anti gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the Bifield Brown effect, been named after Townsend Brown.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And if you put a high K dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically the higher the K the dielectric. So all of his papers include. It's two things. It's barium aluminum barium and magnesium bismuth. And so. And bismuth specifically is this big. This big really important part. But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some issues with it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, Magnesium itself is not Good. But if you. This alloy, maybe something different.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, it seems like what he found had. It was like micron layers thinner than a human hair, bismuth layers less than

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

a human hair, magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And so it was extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale. And you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these. These things.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But why do they explode over Yubato?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So that the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust that was. That's almost like the byproduct of the craft. And who knows, you know, but so

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something, or is it a byproduct of an effect that where they take the natural things and then they're doing something and this ends up being the outcome and then when they're done with it, they go and they throw it out. Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can. But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980 there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damayaure. And we have been there and we have radar returns that something is in the mud.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So when are you going to go look?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We will be there again next year.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's exciting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

In the middle of the day and they could see this object coming below 100 meters, flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around 180 towards them, lands with a splash and sinking and bubbles are coming up and then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from the rucksack and take a picture. Of course it's gone, but they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm and contact the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Stury Wickets, he really looks into this, tried to find an explanation, but they couldn't do that. And they sent a helicopter over the lake and I met one of the pilots and they told me this is a natural Park, National Natural Park. You're not allowed to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick. Yeah. So hit their lands and they could see dead fish near the shore. So take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power, some radioactivity. I killed the fish, but it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So just a parasite.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, but the object is there. It's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But in between.2 meters and exactly there. We got this return from an object that is still resting there.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We don't know what it is, but.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But there is some object. Do you know the shape of the object?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip we will look in three dimensions. Wow. We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a natural park.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So if we find something, we cannot bring it up.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, if you need any extra media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I call you.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That sounds amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It is amazing. And this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects have, like in Norway, flying very, very low, turning, navigating, landing, sinking.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Interesting. And it always seems to be in water, always water.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there, it's summer, they are out. It's good observation. I mean, they can see over the lake, but not a single one has seen any objects flying over the lake and not landing. Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's so interesting. Why do you think that is?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, they want to land, they want to crash, they want to pinpoint a lake, that's for sure. And I'm not sure why they do this.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think it's fuel?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, they're running out of fuel.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

No. Do you think water is there? Oh, you mean that because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic. That would be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power crashing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's like driving your car into a gas station, full power and trying to get some petrol.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, fair enough.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Right.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But they're either crashing straight down.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Or landing quite hard.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It could always refueling.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I just. Who knows? You know, it's interesting. I mean they do. Water just seems like this very important element. You know, the idea that they're trans medium and it's important.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It is not a single object has crashed on land in Sweden or Norway.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing. Yeah. The fact that they literally only the ghost rocket phenomena. But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week, you're saying that it was. It's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only hit. Landed in the water in Sweden. Generally.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Sweden. Scandinavia.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

In Scandinavia, Yeah. So post 46, 47, all UFOs. That's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, it is. Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's so interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And it's all nearly always 11 o' clock July, clear weather, hot weather.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's what you said last time.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's so wild, so strange.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. Well, I mean there's definitely some selection bias based on observer bias because that's when people are on their lake houses.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, but that is some flybys.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. It's weird.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't. They only see those landings and crashes.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's so strange.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But we have only a small sample. I mean maybe 30 still.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's the fact that. I mean, that's enough to. That's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden. What did you see?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I've been looking for the files from a very important military customs, police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040, but I just the other day got a clearance to get them cleared.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And did you see them?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I looked through them, but I would get a copy of them in a week or two.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, what did you see?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot. He was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object, sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift go up with his helicopter trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co pilot, which I will talk to next week, he was flying 20 meters over the treetops and it was moonshine, it was snow. So it was very, very good seeing. And suddenly this object coming flying under the helicopter over the treetops and this small passage of 20 meters and straight up in front of them, an elongated rocket like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing, and it just flies away. And it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter. Whoa. And now when I got those documents, I found this report. I can see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths and also the note from the military.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So it's picked up by radar?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Host Jesse]

Whoa.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. And they land after this. They're landing.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And the security, the military security personnel comes and debrief them and he tells a story and they went. Went away.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What was the shape of the object?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It was an elongated rocket like thing with no wings.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So similar to the ghost rockets.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Typical ghost rocket.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Typical ghost rocket. What year was this?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

1975. November 7th.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

How fast was it moving the object?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see because of the moon and the snow on the ground.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing because in the US you have, you know, the kind of. One of the holy grail events is the Tic Tac incident at Nimitz in 2004. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the DoD archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time. That's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And I will talk to his co pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we had two witnesses documentation. And what I'm looking for now is of course, the security personnel notes. Wow. I have no access to them and I think I will not have any access to them.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, how would you get that?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I will try to get it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But how would you get the security personnel?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I know people that works within the war archives.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And they can help me to say if it's there to see if like

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I'm sure he was because all operation was built on that. That you were debriefing people after all those events.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And did you. And you've spoken to this witness firsthand?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

As soon as I found those documentations, I called him and said, okay, now I know which Date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed over very close to the helicopter.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And this is being declassified for everybody. At what point will this be released to the public?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I mean, it will be. When I'm getting it. It will be.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And so what, When. When will that be when this will be released?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

In a couple of weeks, I think. It all depends on how much they have to do scanning.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Is. Is the pilot in Stockholm?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Where is the pilot?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Is far away from here, so to

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

say in Sweden, though.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And it's really nearer Norway than Stockholm. In Sweden? Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Damn.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The other pilot is in Australia.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It is a good case and I hope that I can really find all the pieces here.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very important.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Do have. I've seen with my own eyes, military radar, ufo.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You've seen with your own eyes, military. And when was that and what's the context?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It was, I think, in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of a UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card, quite late, and they hear a strange noise. So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them and it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get this mobile phone and take a picture and you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around. But that's probably a lens flare, but it's a very bright object and it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is very secret. You cannot just go there. But I know people and I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming, going around. So, yeah, that's the case. You can corroborate.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen. So you don't have UFO material. Have you seen the remnants of a ufo? Just like you showed me, that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment. And so, okay, because you told me last time about Lily Pads being affected by the ghost rockets. And so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like. It's a really important, you know.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden. Ah, really I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of 1973, 1974. At that point, they had left this mountain. You know, they're deep inside a mountain. They are up on the surface at the lunch and they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar shaped object moving like this. So they are running down into the radar equipment. Some look. Then they can see the object on the radar screens. And it's doing 90 degrees angles like this.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Whoa.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And every one of those six I found them during several years are telling the same story. Wow. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

All six?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, I have them on tape. Okay, but.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, that's good.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The problem is that they told me that their commander in the mountain, they were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen. So they did. Yeah, but Diana found them. I don't know where there can be.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Is the tape published on your website or.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, no, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books. Something. This is Heater Evans and his wife, Mary Evans, and they run this. They are passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans. Picture Library. You can buy pictures. One of the biggest picture archives in England. Cool. So. And half of the books you see here comes from Hillary.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, those are the. The class six ones. Really?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. Frederick W.H.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

myers.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, I. I have that book.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And we have it in very early editions.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You know what inspired him to write this book?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't remember now.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Jesus's resurrection. He wanted to prove it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Using science.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Well, he didn't manage that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

William James was the president of Society for Psychical Research. But he was close with William James. And part of that. You know what this is?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, of course.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What do you think of this?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I think it's something military. But not what the conspiracy theories.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification. Weather control.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very badly.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the earth might be weakening.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes, but the Charles Hapgood, that. That creates this sort of cataclysm.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, not Charles Hapgood's theory really, but the science theory is really solid and it could Be a problematic when it happens. Interesting, because every, every gadget you have like trying to navigate with would be topsy turvy.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out. If, if that happens today, it'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no WI fi. No. Your grid would be down, no running water.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah. And we don't have the spare parts.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So it will take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think that solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent. You know, there's a scientist in the uk, he's in London, in Hampstead, outside of London, named Rupert Sheldrake and he talks, he writes about the sun being conscious.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, he wrote the Gaia book in the 1970s. Yeah, I grew up with that and I know about Rupert Sheldrick very well. Yeah, no, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star and the star does what the star does.

[Host Jesse]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And the Earth is not important to the star.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes, but okay, if I were to push back maybe the magnetosphere of the Earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put it next to a wifi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle, allows things to grow and then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, biological evolution. Like if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive, and if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Hal put off, is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. The NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun and they move in ways that are, don't decay or attenuate over space time like your traditional transverse Hertzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on Earth via.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that and they are not aware of it, they only do their thing. But of course it affects the life on Earth. Absolutely, yes.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist, reductionist Lens. You could say we're ultimately. We have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not conscious. And so, you know, we'll never know.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You never know, of course, but I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Or it's impossible to say, though. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically, but, you know, are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale? Because that's our scale, you know, I don't know.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We are a tiny fraction of the universe. So.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes. This is my friend, Frederick Uldahl. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah, he's cool. Amar and I met him, actually. Was it. It was two summers ago. This is right before we did the David Grush thing.

[Guest or Contributor (possibly Amar's friend or another guest)]

So how many countries do you have files from?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

4. I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. Wow. I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the street. There were soldiers everywhere. They were shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Omar, do you have any. Is there anything coming up for you or. Clearly. I spent. Spent decades doing this, and I'm just curious why.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several. Several cases. I know. Know what I saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that are still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no ax to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Is there something autobiographical? Whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going. Where. When you thinking of maybe stopping or quitting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Something quite stubborn.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What's that?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I'm stubborn.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It sounds like you are.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. And I'm a natural researcher, really, from the beginning. I'm amateur astronomer and all that. And I was chosen the Educator of the Year here in Sweden.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's amazing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So people know that I really try very hard. And of course it's okay to believe, but I want to know. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And when you say no, what. What is that? If you were to instantiate that in something very specific.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I want to know what happened. Really. I'm not sure I want. I can not.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material. Do you want a material where you're like, this is definitely in every single case.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I want to know what happened. But.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, that's tough, man. Because it's tough. I even think about what people talk about as disclosure, and it's like, if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti gravity, some, you know, heavy element reactor thing, what would that do for us? Like, what does. That would change?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Everything.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Of course it would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your. Your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now. It'd be like, you can never know. Tell me what is going on.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, it's impossible.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, that's true. Knowledge questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like you could think of knowledge like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. The more the sphere grows, the questions grow on the outside at an exponent. And so the more you know, the less you know. And that really should be sort of with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like there's this received wisdom and it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like you get to the end of the chapter and that's it, end of it. But. But nothing is that simple.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

That is moving into the future.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's beautiful.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And suddenly we are a little higher up. But there is always a new mountain.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even outside of UFOs, who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I'm inspired by. Of course, we had said Jacques Valley, but Chris Orbeck is a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. Yes, he's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Saucers, shows that the saucer shape is so scarce, it's not very much reported.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Still, people Talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer, like. But it's only a fraction of all the observations.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. Even if you look at like the, where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case, it wasn't really saucer.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

They kind of look more like Horton Wing.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. They were crescents.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Crescents? Yeah. Like ninja stars or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting, do you think, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers. Are you familiar with this?

[G]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Already. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And he said that, you know, that it was the, the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness is represented in the UFO archetype he talks about.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for research. Yeah, but of course, if you're living in society, in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that it was airships in the 1800s.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And foe fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships. It's just that we are using the words. We have the most high tech thing we can think of.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So I don't think it must be anything of that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But what's also interesting, John Mack, you know, Harvard, you know, head of the psychiatry department there, he would say that the, the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it is in some ways. Yeah. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And you can say the same about the sci fi writers, you know.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They read the sci fi first.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So you need that element to be able to take the next step.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need. The mythological element almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II maybe. And now it seems like things are speeding up again.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I mean, after the World War II we were occupied with other stuff. Really.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yes.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Building the world again. So, yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for a while.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves that interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Because you said he spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So Edgar Mitchell's the sixth man to walk on the moon. He. Apollo 14, on the way back from the moon, he had this sort of parapsychological conversion where he was an experiment

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

with the Swedish guy. Really?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah, really. Tell me about it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, they had managed to put this program that should be sending things and the other one was to pick them up.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So like a typical mind matter experiment where you have a sender and a receiver.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not. They were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Very. And was it a successful experiment?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Not that successful. Okay. No. No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's too bad.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It didn't prove anything, really. No, but it was done and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Erga Mitchelto, that worked with psychical things, the Noetic Society. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What did you learn anything when you spent time with him?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen a UFO in space.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean, I'm not sure about that.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I'm sure he said it to me. So, I mean, yeah, but maybe he

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

knew them all, but they all sign NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, I'm in this country. I'm in this country. And he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview.

[G]

I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen just invested in seti and he got labeled a UFO freak or something. And I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians into space. I, I can't do it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs, but if he did, it would hurt his reputation.

[G]

Then he said, he said, how's my story going to change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that. And remember, this is in the 90s, right? Yeah, it's probably late 90s, I thought I asked him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen. So that I was devastated. Like devastated.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right. But you never know. You want to believe, but he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so. And then there's speculation obviously in American Cosmic that, you know, astronauts sign NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed, his name is Tim Taylor, is a NASA mission controller and he says, you know, astronauts are forced to stay, stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about, about this. So.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But you think I know a lot of astronauts and cosmos.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You do, yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And not a single one of them has said anything like that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Fair enough. Do you know any very well or how?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Like you know, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I got to know Gemitra very well.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon and a few, maybe ten cosmonauts from Russia.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And it produced those ice particles flying out. Yeah. And he said, wow, look there. Oh wow, wow. It's a fleet of UFOs that I know, but I only tried to comment on things that I really spent time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you know who Leonov is, one of the fathers of the Russian space program?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, I don't know.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. I.A. whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts and she says they all see stuff in space too. So it's so interesting because you seem extremely hard headed and thorough. I mean, you're like the Most thorough guy ever. And so like, I, I fully trust you when you say, you know a lot of astronauts.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, me too.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Not from someone else who says, sure, sure, sure.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, yeah, no, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseam and American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. And they're meeting outside of the EG&G parking lot. And Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs that wasn't meant for public consumption. And that was released from Mitchell's estate and that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and, and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document if, if he should die. But he was supposed to destroy that. As far as I understand. It seems like Edgar Mitchell is. Had some really interesting access.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He was very interested in UFOs. Yeah, absolutely. Very interesting.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Why did he. If he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high? Conviction that, you know, I mean, he

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

was a believer even before.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean, he was.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. So he was curious about this, but he didn't see anything. And he says that no one else did. So I only can tell what he told me.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What were the interesting things he told you?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We talked a lot about. He met with Uri Geller. You know, he did experiments with Uri Geller. He was very much impressed by him. I met with Uri Geller as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, he seems like a bit of a con man. Yeah, well, he also now he goes on Twitter and he goes, he goes, putin, don't press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to. And it's like he's been wrong so

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

many times that it's like nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randi, you know James Randy.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We sat like this, but even closer.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And he bent this spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he did it. He bent it like that. I couldn't see it. But the thing he did was he put my hand over my watch and then his hand over my hand and then he moved it and it was five hours like that and we did again and it was back to the same time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So interesting. So interesting. Interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's hard to do that but.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, he was an amazing magician.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, it was the Amazing Randy.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

The Amazing Randy. But he, he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bit bad faith actor like Uri Geller is one of these things where cases where you have the, you know, the Princeton parapsychology lab has a whole book on Uri Geller and like they studied him a lot. Andre Puharich brought Uri Geller to the States.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I think it was there Garmichel met with Uri Geller.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing. And then you get the amazing James Randi with his prize to, you know, be.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But the most gullible people you can, you can ask for are the scientists. You should put.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's interesting. What do you mean? I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They are not prepared to be, to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah, so they think that reality is. Oh, that's so interesting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So they're not, they're not prepared for a magic trick or something?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, no, they don't.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Ah, that's a good. That's so fascinating. I like the way you, you put that. Anything else? Edgar Mitchell told you we talked for hours and hours.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you are looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. Cool, because I published it and it's out there.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's fascinating.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But it was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What UFO related meeting impacted you the most?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh, that was hard. I mean when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me because there was this Huge observation near my hometown. When I was 16, there were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, 100 kilometers away. And I also saw the object, but they didn't understand what it was. And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this and I knew what it was. I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16 and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. It for hours. And I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter. Why same stars?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Because they didn't know what it was

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

and it doesn't normally show in the sky there.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

One guy, a civilian was there. He was an Adansky believer.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens. And he pointed to this object and said, can't you see the windows? And they were looking. Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows. What they could see were the moons, the three moons that were Jupiter at that point.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's unbelievable.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So he was impacting them and that was very, very good learning for me that if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff because you don't want to be the guy that sports deviates. Yeah, sports, the party.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So they're crowd like dynamics.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely. That's also my first big UFO case.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan, where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the Atacama Mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunked this case?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I did.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to understand.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But why did you decide that a couple months earlier? What was the moment?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Maristad.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Had you had an experience?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, no, no, not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see. I wanted to know what people saw in the sky.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Have you had an experience since then?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah, I had an experience together with my wife in 1995, November 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving, man, and was sitting. We were just coming into our. The suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house and there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky, other one was looking. So I said to Annalee, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? And she did that, but she said, no, it's a fantastic sky. It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky all the night. We were traveling back to Stockholm, so we passed them and we were quite near our house. So I parked the car inside our garage and we went out. And I thought, now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. So we scanned the sky. We stood one meter from each other. And suddenly, out of the black, in Gemini, between Castor and Pollux, not from the horizon, just bang. Came three illuminated plus signs and they flew. They flew over us. And Anderly saw it immediately, so I didn't have to say anything, but I said, oh, did you see? Yeah, yeah. So he ran after them around the corner because they passed over our. Our roof and we could see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space behind beside them, but they were glued together and they were so easy to see.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

When you say glued together, I mean

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus sides.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another or were they like beside.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Beside each other?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So it was a. Okay, so they were plus sign formations of UFOs?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, no, there were plus signs solid plus signs, solid plus. Whoa.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Have you ever heard of a case or like.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Not at that point, but I took a look. But I should say one more thing that, yeah, I said to Annalee, we don't talk. We go inside. Here's a form. You sit in the kitchen. I'm sitting here.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Spoken like a true UFO researcher. So you literally made yourself like this double blind. And then you both described what you see and you didn't talk?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's amazing. You maintained your discipline even in your own sighting.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

What should I do?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's awesome.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So we made drawings and everything, and they were not exactly the same, they never are, but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator for UFO Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Were the plus signs. What color? White or white.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Okay. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And how fast were they traveling?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

How low were they?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars, but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Any other anomalies, like right angle turns or disappearing or lights or.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue on the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's like they just appeared.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. And I never talked about this to anyone for months, except for the researcher, because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie, so I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later, and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her 80s, and she was a young girl in the 30s. And she had been out with her mother, who was inside the house. She was waiting outside the house in this field, middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored. And suddenly, on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere, rolling on the road, huge.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Whoa.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And gone. Wow.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Were yours also rolling like that?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No. No.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay. Hers were.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yours were more floating.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, they were rigid. Really? They were.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow. That must have. It's almost like a cosmic joke that the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so. Not like flying saucer. Or even though the fl. Saucer wasn't seeing that much. Or triangles. Or is the more common thing. Klaus, do you think.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

What?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you ever wonder. What if in one of these random manila envelopes, the answer. Yeah. Or is just the most undeniable evidence.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, of course we haven't read them. Yeah, I mean, we have read some of them.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So you need. We need to get you funding, man.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We need to get some funding to make this available.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you have any plans to digitize?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

We do it all the time. Time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Only time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

We.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Only one guy could do it. W. So he's sitting under an avalanche,

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

you know, what's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout out.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Leif Ostrand. He's a real hero.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Leif Ostrand. Thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher and has gone the deepest on the files? Besides you?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Yes. Who could that be. We have some friends in Europe. Of course. Yeah. Gregor Jejian from the us he spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Interesting. Why did he. Is he into UFOs?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He wrote this book about the history of UFOs.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

He did?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay. I don't know who he is. Right.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He's often on TV and things like that. Like an expert. He's very good.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Sure. Do you like him?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I like him. Really good research.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you know the Penn State. Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist and he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic 12.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadel. And that guy spoke to Henry Azadel.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Very, very elusive guy. He has several names. He published this silver diamond, South Africa thing, which is a fraud.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So do you think he's like in intelligence or.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, yeah. I don't trust him at all.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So maybe. Do you think his conversation wasn't real with.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't know. But Henry Assad. Error. He's not a bona fide beautiful guy.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Acadero.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So, I mean, you're. I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So Grant Cameron wrote a book, and in it is a whole transcript of a conversation between.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Grant is a good guy. Yeah, yeah, Henry. I mean, he faked those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of them being fake.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you. And he got very paranoid.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Okay.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So I. You know, and then there's also. I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman, William Steinman.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So William Steinman also had correspondence with. With Dr. Eric Walker because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so he. I believe he went to Penn State. Steinman, him. And was it Scott Crane? I believe his other colleague. And they tried to meet with Eric Walker. And Eric Walker again was like, you guys are chasing your tails. You're like, I think he called them, actually. There's a call between Steinman and Eric Walker, and he said, you're, you know, what do you know about the Sixth Sense? What do you know about Psy? And then he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. And goes, until you know about that, you don't know anything about this. And you're chasing your. Basically, it's like Don Quixote. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I was just thinking that. Because this guy's.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

That is interesting, but not Henry as Adele yeah, yeah. He has too many problems.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But. But you can't. If somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Trust them for sure.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people, I think, in the US now who are on the circuit who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

But you. That doesn't mean you should not talk to them.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, no, absolutely.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, absolutely. And then. And then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration. Yeah, but.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Sure. For sure.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But too many of them. So it's very hard to distinguish.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

There are a lot.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I'm just saying with the Henry Azadet, like, maybe some. Some stuff's true, some's fake, you know,

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

it could very well be like that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So, Klaas, you mentioned Adamski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman. Hard to say. Seems like he was caught in some lies.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Right.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But many of the pictures he took, you know, those mother ships and scout ships. He was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements or. He was hanging out with some interesting people. You know, he was hanging out with George Van Tassel. Right. Who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case or.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's rather complicated, but I don't think his pictures have been properly analyzed. I think they should be. There is one guy who did some analytic work on it, but he don't want to share when I ask him. He don't want to share how he did it, and I don't like that. I know There are diaries that Adamski wrote and I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Steckling has read them and I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I want to know more, really, about Adamski.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So you're not. You haven't made up your mind?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I'm not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door. Yeah. But I think most of it are not as good as it should be.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh, yeah. I don't trust you.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Don't you think that he.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Hoaxed.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases, but then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning he was attracting real stuff and so. And you get the same things sometimes with Chris Bledsoe.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Where the beanie? It was good.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I don't buy that.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You don't buy it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And if I. I have loads of his pictures.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

At home. Yeah. And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on the table.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's not good.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

He used even pictures from books.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You know the time travel he made to the dinosaurs?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah. Yeah. That was so strange.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is a picture I took when I traveled back in time.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's crazy.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's not.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

He says that in the book?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay. After this, it's hard to take him serious. Really. He says he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's clearly a fake photo.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, Yeah. I have the book myself. You compare it, it's exactly the same picture.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Jesus Christ.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his hand, or her hand, I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there so you can only see the arm and this incredibly fake looking gun, like from a toy store.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I just had a guest on who said this guy's name. Jason Reza Giorgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that?

[Guest or Expert (discussing Billy Meyer)]

Billy Meyer also not really his name. I mean, his name was Eduard Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative working primarily in the Middle East.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Billy Meyer.

[Guest or Expert (discussing Billy Meyer)]

Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey in a bus accident. His Arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man. And he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contactee phenomenon.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I didn't know that.

[Guest or Expert (discussing Billy Meyer)]

I dug up this and. And have documented it all in closer encounters. Well, so Eduard Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle east that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

the King of Jordan, Billy Meyer. Billy Meyer, what, he had, like, British Intelligence.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Tend to love to make stories better.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Most of the time it's just an crazy guy. Crazy things. To make himself a new Jesus, like Billy Meyer really tried to do.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Vallee's Messengers of Deception. And you get all this cult creation around, you know, certain figures in ufology.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's interesting because there are here in Sweden, we have quite a few sorcerer cults.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Where guys who want to make themselves bigger than they are really told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Interesting. What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you, because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah. Loads of them. Really?

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What is your top UFO photo?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier. Yep. The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s, they tend to say, okay, I faked it. Really, I did so with every single Swedish 1970 photograph. And it's always young men, not a single girl. And when I called them 10 or 15 years later, they said, okay, I admit I did it. It faked. Except one who still maintains his story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian. He's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life. And I gave him the chance. Every second year I call him again and say, hi, it's me.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You can admit that you faked it now?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And he won't admit it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

What's his name?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure. Christa Sundstrom.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

And can. Do you have the photo?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Of course you can send it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I can send it so you can have it in.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I'd love to see it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Absolutely.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Is that the most visually appealing clear photo that you can't debunk.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did it as well.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, you see? You did fake it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I did a fake.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Well, you can fake any of these photos, and then somewhat certain ones you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like, there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. It's. There's no way to fully prove it or disprove it.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

The thing is that it's not the picture, it's a story. I mean, when you go to this guy and make an interview and to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So you think that it's fake because the story doesn't actually stand up?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, the story. If you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

analyzing the picture, but this very Christian guy. You think that that photo is fake?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I think it's fake.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

You think it's fake?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I was trying to find out that most people should say the McMinn wheel.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Yeah.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago and this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string if you make a really data enhancement of it.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Really?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

So I don't know anymore.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Oh, no. The McMinnville.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

That's like a Holy Grail, you know,

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

it's very hard to find a picture. You can say that. Wow, this. This is good.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

You have to look for the story.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So there. Is it safe to say there are no UFO photos? That your very high conviction are real?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah, I have no photos that I'm. Except the one I told you about with the radar return. I saw myself. That picture is, of course, of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself. On the military radar. Yes, I know it was there. And of course he couldn't know it was a military radar.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

So you have. On that case, you have radar, you have a photo and two witnesses, and you have two witnesses that might be one of the best UFO cases ever.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's for real.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

I mean that happened and that's the one you're going to go digging for?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

No, it's around the same area. Around the same area, but not connected in any other way.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Okay.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

It's many, many years between them.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Wow.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Fascinating. Klaus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

I would have loved to understand that this very scarce time, you have to make interviews with people before they passes away. I miss so many who are no longer there.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Who's top of the list?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Lots of people from the Ghost rocket era. Investigators and witnesses that I. Oh, in the 1980s when I started to pursue that, they were gone, many of them.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

Who's the number one person?

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Oh, it was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden who was very much doing research and method people all around north Sweden and made interviews. I missed him. That's really, really sad. And I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes.

[Co-host or Interviewer Amar Kandeel]

It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this, like, large scale and then they get into all these kind of pontificating, metaphysical questions. And so you're, you know, very obviously rigorous and so. Appreciate your time, man, and thank you for having us.

[Klaas Svahn (Swedish UFO researcher and archivist)]

Thank you,

[Host Jesse]

Alchemist. Did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine. We just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten and conspiratorial corners of space, history and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of the of this video.

[Guest or Contributor (brief closing remark)]

Sat.