The UFO Kill List: Who Paid the Price? (Ft. Richard Dolan)

Summary

American Alchemy - Episode Summary: "The UFO Kill List: Who Paid the Price?" (Ft. Richard Dolan)
Release Date: June 28, 2025
Guests: Richard Dolan

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of American Alchemy, host Jesse Michels engages in a deep and enlightening conversation with renowned UFO researcher, Richard Dolan. Together with Calvin Parker and Randy Anderson, they delve into some of the most intriguing and controversial aspects of UFO phenomena, government involvement, historical encounters, and the challenges surrounding disclosure.

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1. Historical UFO Encounters and Government Intervention

James Forrestal's Mysterious Death
Richard Dolan recounts the enigmatic circumstances surrounding the death of James Forrestal, the U.S. Secretary of Defense. Forrestal's sudden decline, marked by paranoia and strange behaviors, culminated in his untimely death, which Dolan believes was no mere suicide.

“He was absolutely murdered.”
— Richard Dolan [59:13]

Dolan narrates Forrestal's deteriorating mental state, his confrontation with Defense Secretary Stuart Symington, and the suspicious events leading up to Forrestal's death. He posits that Forrestal’s awareness of UFO phenomena and possible government conspiracies may have led to his murder.

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2. Breakaway Civilizations and Financial Discrepancies

Catherine Austin Fitts and the Financial Cover-Up
Calvin Parker introduces Catherine Austin Fitts, a former HUD employee turned consultant, who uncovered vast financial discrepancies within the Pentagon. Fitts suggests that trillions of dollars are siphoned off, potentially to support clandestine projects, including those related to UFO research.

“I think a lot of this money is going to. A lot of this money is going to support and fund and, you know, keep that whole thing secure.”
— Calvin Parker [16:45]

Dolan and Anderson discuss the possibility of a breakaway civilization financed by these hidden funds, reinforcing the notion that such entities exist beyond public awareness and operate with significant resources.

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3. MJ-12 Documents and Disinformation Strategies

Authenticity of MJ-12 Documents
The conversation shifts to the controversial MJ-12 documents, which allegedly detail government cover-ups of UFO encounters. While many skeptics label them as hoaxes, Dolan argues for their authenticity based on their sophisticated nature and the consistent formatting across decades.

“It's not some guy in his basement doing it all by himself, that's for sure.”
— Richard Dolan [26:08]

Dolan also explains the concept of "flood the zone" as a disinformation tactic, where governments release partial truths intertwined with deliberate falsehoods to confuse and control public perception.

“What is disinformation? It's not the same as lies... So the truth is put out there, but it's sandwiched in such a way that it's not credible.”
— Richard Dolan [28:39]

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4. Underground Military Bases and UFO Technology

Deep Underground Facilities (DUGFs)
Dolan affirms the existence of deep underground military bases, citing their long history and the military's focus on secure facilities during the Cold War. He discusses how these bases could be involved in reverse-engineering UFO technology, although concrete proof remains elusive due to the highly classified nature of these operations.

“There is a lot of possibilities here in terms of Proof, it's difficult.”
— Richard Dolan [20:24]

The conversation touches upon various sightings and encounters, emphasizing the military’s potential interest in UFO technology and the challenges in obtaining definitive evidence.

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5. Recent UAP Sightings and National Security

Jersey Drones and National Defense
Randy Anderson brings up recent unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP) sightings in New Jersey, highlighting the confusion and lack of clear explanations despite multiple theories linking them to foreign threats or advanced technology.

“You know, people like Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper. They write the really breakthrough article for the New York Times... but in the aftermath, really? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing at all.”
— Jesse Michels [75:13]

Dolan expresses skepticism about government explanations, suggesting that these UAPs may be part of a larger, more complex phenomenon that remains hidden from the public eye.

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6. International Perspectives: China's UFO Research

Suppression of UFO Phenomena in China
Dolan explores China's approach to UFO research, noting that after Mao Zedong's death in 1976, there was a surge of interest which was later brutally suppressed by the Chinese government. This suppression contrasts with the more fragmented and secretive efforts in the United States.

“Chinese ufology to this day is basically had its, has its teeth taken out. I mean it's very, very tame, it's very managed, it's very controlled.”
— Richard Dolan [106:26]

He underscores the Chinese military's sophisticated handling of UFO reports, which remains largely inaccessible to Western researchers, thereby limiting global understanding of the phenomenon.

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7. Media's Role in Managing UFO Narratives

Media Control and Information Suppression
The hosts discuss the media’s integral role in shaping public perception of UFOs. Dolan criticizes mainstream media for their controlled and often dismissive coverage, which term UFO research as fringe and unworthy of serious investigation.

“Our media is part of this system. Media is part of this system. It always has been.”
— Richard Dolan [115:02]

Jesse Michels highlights instances where breakthrough articles were either ignored or quickly debunked, reflecting the media's reluctance to challenge established narratives or disclose sensitive information.

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8. Connections Between JFK Assassination and UFOs

Exploring Conspiracy Theories
The discussion turns to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, with Jesse Michels suggesting a possible link between JFK’s stance on UFO disclosure and his assassination. They reference a memo called the "burned memo" which allegedly called for Kennedy’s removal if he posed too great a threat to certain national security secrets.

“He was a threat on every level you can imagine... Kennedy was a threat on that.”
— Jesse Michels [75:27]

Dolan supports this by mentioning figures like Philip Lavelle, who believe that UFO phenomena are intertwined with high-level governmental conspiracies that extend to pivotal historical events like JFK’s assassination.

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9. Notable Crash Retrievals: Roswell, Aztec, and Kecksburg

Exposing Hoaxes vs. Genuine Cases
Richard Dolan defends several historical crash retrieval cases, including Aztec and Kecksburg, against mainstream skepticism. He argues that many of these incidents, often dismissed as hoaxes, contain substantial evidence that warrants serious consideration.

“I think Aztec was real. I think that actually did happen.”
— Richard Dolan [84:46]

Calvin Parker and Randy Anderson share anecdotes and additional testimonies that corroborate the authenticity of these events, highlighting the complexities and challenges in discerning truth within a heavily managed narrative framework.

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10. Challenges and Prospects of Disclosure

Barriers to Official Disclosure
The hosts express pessimism regarding the likelihood of voluntary disclosure by the U.S. government, citing strong financial and political incentives to maintain secrecy. They discuss the potential for a shake-up only if undeniable evidence becomes irrefutable, forcing the government to release concealed information.

“I don't believe that we are going to ever see an honest voluntary disclosure from the US Government.”
— Jesse Michels [100:34]

Dolan emphasizes that disclosure poses a significant threat to established power structures and financial interests, making it an uphill battle against entrenched systems designed to suppress such revelations.

“Our media is part of this system. Media is part of this system.”
— Richard Dolan [115:02]

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring struggle for truth within the UFO research community. Jesse Michels and Richard Dolan underscore the importance of perseverance and critical thinking in uncovering the mysteries that lie beneath layers of secrecy and disinformation.

“We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes, it is a reality shattering phenomenon.”
— Richard Dolan [91:05]

As the conversation wraps up, listeners are encouraged to continue seeking knowledge and questioning established narratives, recognizing the profound implications that understanding UFO phenomena could have on our perception of reality and societal structures.

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Notable Quotes:

• “He was absolutely murdered.” — Richard Dolan [59:13]
• “I think a lot of this money is going to support and fund and, you know, keep that whole thing secure.” — Calvin Parker [16:45]
• “It's not some guy in his basement doing it all by himself, that's for sure.” — Richard Dolan [26:08]
• “What is disinformation? It's not the same as lies...” — Richard Dolan [28:39]
• “You are a loyal fellow.” — Richard Dolan [65:15]
• “I don't believe that we are going to ever see an honest voluntary disclosure from the US Government.” — Jesse Michels [100:34]
• “Our media is part of this system. Media is part of this system.” — Richard Dolan [115:02]
• “We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes, it is a reality shattering phenomenon.” — Richard Dolan [91:05]

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Additional Resources:

• Richard Dolan's Work: For those interested in deepening their understanding of UFO phenomena and national security, Richard Dolan’s books, particularly "UFOs in the National Security State," are highly recommended. His ongoing research and upcoming volumes on UAPs and submersible objects provide comprehensive analyses of these mysteries.

• American Alchemy Social Media:

  • Instagram: @jessemichels
  • Twitter: @alchemyamerican
  • Business Inquiries: [e-mail]

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Tune in weekly to American Alchemy for more discussions on the most heretical thinkers and ideas of our time. Subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay updated on the latest revelations and debates in the realm of American alchemy and beyond.

Transcript

[Richard Dolan]

People were noticing all throughout this time that Forrestal seemed like he was unraveling. He started developing these weird nervous tics. He said, I'm being followed by strange foreign looking men. He started dipping his fingers into glasses of water all the time and just wetting his lips.

[Jesse]

I drink only distilled water or rainwater. See what you're getting at.

[Richard Dolan]

A couple of big tough navy guys grab him and throw him the hell out the window. I'm absolutely convinced that's what happened.

[Jesse]

Oh, yes.

[Calvin Parker]

And in the 80s, it felt like maybe the US moved from a strategy of secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out bs. It means put out partial truths and put out a lot.

[Richard Dolan]

People did see it emerge from the water, circled their transport ship twice, totally silent. He said there were high winds. This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock solid.

[Jesse]

He writes in his diary, at 3:30am on August 12, 1825, the Night Watch reported this orange spherical object rise from the ocean.

[Richard Dolan]

Let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a phenomenon. Yes, it is a reality shattering phenomenon.

[Jesse]

I do believe that there's a good reason to think that we have been monitored or observed for a long time.

[Richard Dolan]

It's not that we're being too crazy and too fringe. We're not being, we're not going out there enough.

[Calvin Parker]

I think that's right.

[Richard Dolan]

Different parts of the brain have different activities.

[Calvin Parker]

You know that, don't you?

[Richard Dolan]

Maybe you should interview me.

[Calvin Parker]

Here with the great Richard Dolan. We just did this amazing kind of live show for a bunch of people.

[Richard Dolan]

It was a lot of fun.

[Calvin Parker]

It was a lot of fun. I told you afterwards, I think you're the easiest person to interview because, you know, I just have to tee you.

[Randy Anderson]

Off and then you, you just go.

[Calvin Parker]

And, yeah, it's an honor to be here. It's a long time coming for me. And maybe what we should start with here in this kind of, you know, private setting is I'm curious to know how you got into UFO research to begin with and who your inspirations are.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, I have a lot of inspirations in my life. Some in some in this field, some beyond. This is a story I've told a few times. I don't want to sound like I'm, I'm rehashing it, but I want to, I want to try to do it fresh. I was always like a very, like, driven young, young person. And I always felt like there was this very intellectualized destiny that I wanted to pursue. I didn't really know what it would be. I've always been drawn to history and politics. Discovered a real deep love of literature when I was in my early 20s and that's remained with me. But as a young person trying to make a professional life, I thought, well, I would finish a PhD in history and teach at a university. When I was in my youngest portion of that, I was totally unqualified to try to do what I ended up doing. I was studying German history. My German language was minimal at best. And here I was studying basically the J. Edgar Hoover of otto von Bismarck's 19th century Germany. Back in the 1850s and 60s, a man named Wilhelm Steber. And I'm like, oh, this is an interesting guy. And I'm diving into his career and I thought, I'm going to do a dissertation on him. I wrote 150 pages or whatever and it failed. I just, it was, I was, I was unable to crack Wilhelm Steber. He's an interesting guy. He did blackmailed people. He created a brothel in Berlin in 1870. He would take pictures, all of his stuff.

[Calvin Parker]

He literally was politicians, a J. Edgar Hoover of German unification absolutely interested in.

[Richard Dolan]

And it was amazing. But anyway, so I bailed out of that. That was when the Berlin Wall came down. I was there. I was in Berlin during that whole period, 1989, I was trying to wrap this thing up and it just failed. So I go back to the States and I left for about two years. I was studying at the University of Rochester in upstate New York. And then I went back and I thought, you know what? My German sucked. So why don't I just do like American history because I know that language. And I went in and I focused on United States diplomatic history and I did great. I was really, really into it. I was very deeply. And by this time I was in my early 30s, so I was a bit more mature. And I was studying Harry Truman and his presidency and I was doing a lot of Soviet stuff too. But I ended up studying 1950 National Security Strategy just before the outbreak of war in Korea. And I was like, who cares? But that was what I was doing at the time. And I wrote another 125, 150 pages of a dissertation on that which I did not finish. So I had two unfinished dissertations and I was in a bookstore, just like a ordinary bookstore one day in Syracuse, New York and I saw a copy of Timothy Good's very classic work above Top Secret.

[Calvin Parker]

Oh yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And it was a subtitle of that book that caught my attention, it was the Worldwide UFO coverup. Like, oh, wow. So here we are, it's like 1994, so I'm about 32 years old, and I flipped through the book and I'm like, I know that name. I read his diaries. I know that department. Wait, what UFOs? What. What is this? Like, it was this great cognitive dissonance. And I thought, this is. This looks like a fairly serious book. He's got a variety of documents. It looks like his research is at least halfway decent.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And my question wasn't, are UFOs real? My question wasn't like, are there abductions or are there crop circles? I wasn't down that road. My question was simply, even if this was a mistake, like, if they were mistakenly interested in this UFO thing back. Or the flying saucers back in the 40s, how come I never read about it in any academic history book, like, ever? Even if it was a mistake, like, would you not think that's kind of interesting? You go back to 1947, 48, and I'm reading here in Tim Goode's book, like, the Air Force and the Navy, like, they were totally into this. And during the early Cold War. Yeah, that's damned interesting. And so I thought, well, I bought the book and I just went down that rabbit hole and I thought, I'm gonna just spend like two or three months and I just wanna resolve for myself, like, was this a thing or not a thing?

[Jesse]

And that was it.

[Richard Dolan]

And then I figured, like, I would just leave and go on to my life. And those are my favorite famous last words. So I read Tim's book and it was like, this is a very good book. Started going online back with the baby Internet as it existed, all the news groups. You suck. No, you suck. I'm going to kill you. You know, the bulletin boards, as they existed in the 90s, but there were some good UFO bulletin boards. And I went down that. And the next thing I knew, I just. I left. I left the University of Rochester.

[Jesse]

And.

[Richard Dolan]

It was a real crisis in my life because I'm in my early 30s. I'm like, I've got all this ambition. I wanted to do something. I wanted to teach at a university. But I just lost the belief. I lost the belief in that whole system. I lost the belief in academia. I lost the belief that I wanted to do that anymore. And I was totally obsessed with UFOs.

[Jesse]

I would.

[Richard Dolan]

I would remember for an entire year, I'd lie in bed staring at the ceiling, thinking all of these if thens, like, if, if this is real, then was I totally wrong about everything I thought I knew about history? What is the truth then about the Truman administrations that I was studying or Eisenhower or Kennedy? Like, there had to be this whole subterranean reality that I was oblivious to. And when you're, when you think you're a smart person and you think you're well educated, that's the hardest because you want to, like, you've got your ego there. I had my ego. Like, absolutely. I want to be like, I'm, I'm a smart guy. I think I know everything. But wait. Oh, wow. I missed this whole thing. That's not easy to admit.

[Calvin Parker]

No, it's not. When your identity is so tied up in the system, the system's giving you positive feedback. Until that point, to just accept that sort of crumbling and finding something new, I think is really tough.

[Randy Anderson]

But you do.

[Calvin Parker]

You read something like Timothy Good's above top secret, and you're like, this is a whole ontology separate from the reality that I know. And it's so well researched. And it, you know, if you associate, you know, psyops around UFOs with like, you know, American intel, like he's coming up from British Ministry of Defense. He starts with the Battle of Los Angeles, but he goes through like the, really the UK history.

[Richard Dolan]

And I'm impressed that you just can roll right through that. I mean, I just tossed Tim Goode out there. And you're like, yeah, yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, he's amazing. I mean, you got it, you know, like, you got to pay respects to your stuff. You got to pay respect. You got to know that these are canonical. I think, you know, it works. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni.

[Randy Anderson]

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[Calvin Parker]

Episode.

[Randy Anderson]

In UFOs in the national security State. You bring up this idea of a breakaway civilization and you have Catherine Austin Fitz, this former Housing and Urban Development employee who then went on to be a consultant who's uncovered trillions of dollars worth of fraud.

[Jesse]

Discrepancies in accounting.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah, discrepancies in accounting. Yeah, there you go. That's a nice euphemism. So what is a breakaway civilization and what is the nature of the contact that we're seeing?

[Jesse]

Yeah, I haven't really thought. I haven't talked a lot about the idea of a breakaway civilization in a little while, but I still think it's probably true. And just to give a background, it was phrase that I coined, I don't know, about almost 20 years ago now. I do a lot of reading of other types of historians. And I was reading a story named Arnold Toynbee, some of you know of him, he writes meta histories of civilizations. And I was kind of in that head space and I thought, you know, what is it that actually makes a civilization distinctive and unique? And I thought, well, there's a lot of things. There's like your social structure and your economy and your ideology, your cosmology. And I thought, you know, if you really think about the classified worlds, especially like assuming like the Roswell event or other crash retrievals happened, you have this very, very deep classified structure that keeps the technology and the science classified away from you and away from me, so that we can't really look at it. And I thought, well, what do they do with those breakthroughs in their technology? Well, they're going to learn new things and they're going to privately maybe patent them and keep them away from the rest of us. And they're just in danger of running more and more away from this. Will they have functional flying saucers one day? Can they go off world? Can they encounter other beings and all of this? And I thought, well, they're really actually kind of like a separate civilization, one that's broken away from our own. And it was a totally theoretical idea. It still is, I guess, but I think there's evidence for it in a lot of different ways. And so that's what I was talking about. And I think it's kind of a breakaway group that has its own legal protections and all of that. So I've known Katharine Austin Fitts for many years. I absolutely admire her work. She's a brilliant financial expert. You could say she served with the first George Bush senior administration back in the late 80s, early 90s as assistant secretary of Housing and Urban Development. She told really a story. It should be funny, but it's actually really tragic. She said, when I went into hud, I said, I want to look at the accounting, I want to look at all the books. And they said, well, no, you're not authorized to see that. She says, the hell I'm not authorized to see that. So she finally got her way and she said, what happened when they brought in the financial records? She said, you know the old library carts with all the books on them? She said they wheeled in one after another, filled, stacked with papers like organized, disorganized. And she's like, God could not pull this apart. She said, you need the greatest accountants in the world to undo this God awful mess. And she concluded, like, this whole system is designed so that it is impossible to audit. And that was her start. And then she goes through four years of that and she had her own amazing, tumultuous journey dealing with analyzing the US Government and. And then eventually looking into. She wrote a really great paper called the Myth of the Rule of Law. I highly recommend it. And then she told a really interesting story about. I think in 1998, she was invited by a gentleman named John Peterson of the Arlington Institute. John Peterson was on many, many Short lists for DoD Secretary of Defense position for years. And she wrote about this. And he said, we're doing a little get together of a mini conference to discuss what it would be like in a world where extraterrestrials are openly acknowledged as living among us. And she said, the biggest regret in my life was not doing that. She was afraid because at that time she was looking at connections of the U.S. government and drug trafficking, intelligence communities and all of this. And she knew that they were after her and she was afraid that this was like a setup and so she didn't do it. But she. I think she came to regret that. But anyway, that's Catherine, and she's come to look at discrepancies in financial doings of the Pentagon and the federal government in general. So back in 01, Donald Rumsfeld famously before the House Armed Services Committee in, I think, July of 01, just before 9 11. Now, the Bush administration were brand new at this time. So in a sense, what he's about to say was, no skin off their nose. This is really indicting the Clinton years. He said, yeah, we've looked at the Pentagon records and there's two point. I think he said 2.3. Well, he kept revising it, but originally it was $2.3 trillion in unaccounted expenditures. He said, if you can believe that, chuckle, chuckle, laugh, laugh in the House. And that became 2.1 trillion on September 10th. And then came 9 11. And then you never hear about this again. That was kind of like gone a few months later. There's a guy named Dov Zakheim who took over the accounting of all of that. And he. This is like in 2002. And he's like, yeah, no, we gotta figure it out. It's all done. We've just had a look at the books a little more carefully, and it's down to zero. We have no more discrepancies. Literally. That is what he said. But anyway, so Catherine's been on top of this all these years, and then the question arises, does this mean the money's missing or is it just you've got accounting discrepancies where you're not getting your books? Right. I do think a lot of it is that it doesn't mean that $2.3 trillion got stolen, but it does mean there's a lot of opportunity for money to just go missing. And one thing she has always said is our accounting, our global financial system, she says, is like an open window. It's not a closed system. It's an open system. So in other words, the money goes out somewhere. And this is where she and I really connected. Because she's like, I think that this idea of a breakaway civilization is really right on. And I think some of this money is going. A lot of this money is going to. That, to support and fund and, you know, keep that whole thing secure.

[Randy Anderson]

And I believe in her Tucker Carlson interview, she mentions your work. And he's like, where is all this money going? And she goes, well, talk to Richard Dolan. And she goes, space. Very vaguely, but, like, you know, the implication is almost like they're. They're using this in some of these, you know, some of this off the books UFO research. I believe also that Jordan. That not Jordan John Peterson story where they're doing a simulation of, you know, extraterrestrial Contact at the Arlington Institute. This is from a researcher named Linda Thompson. It's very active on Twitter. She's great. She.

[Richard Dolan]

We know Linda.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Randy Anderson]

She said that John Peterson promised to show Katherine Austin Fitz a UFO if she would stop engaging in her research.

[Jesse]

I don't think I caught that one. That's interesting. Yeah.

[Randy Anderson]

I don't know.

[Jesse]

Yeah, interesting.

[Randy Anderson]

Do you think, by the way? Yeah.

[Jesse]

John. I don't know if I should say this or not. John Peterson and his wife, along with James Woolsey, CIA director at the time and his wife, were the people who invited Stephen Greer to a dinner in the early 90s in which Greer has many times talked about this. So I'm not really spilling any beans here. Just kind of interesting connections going on here. And I think you interviewed him.

[Randy Anderson]

I did, yeah.

[Jesse]

I don't know if that ever came up.

[Randy Anderson]

I don't know if it was an interview, but.

[Calvin Parker]

So.

[Randy Anderson]

You have trillions of dollars off the books. She's talking about deep underground military bases and facilities. Do we have documentation that this exists and how far have we made it? Presumably some of this might be getting siphoned off. We all probably believe that there's some reality to the UFO story. Is some of this money being spent on reverse engineering UFOs?

[Jesse]

Well, all we can say is I think so. We think so. Is there proof? That's a hard thing for me to say. I don't know what I can say in terms of proof. There's a tremendous amount of good research showing that we have these so called dumbs, deep underground military bases. I don't think there's any question that that's real. We all know that there are such things. I used to work kind of closely with a gentleman named Richard Souder who's done a lot of work on underground base construction. He went through the documentation. I think he made a very, very strong case that even back in the 40s and 50s we were looking, the military was looking strong about how to go deep, you know, partially. A lot of it's legit, you know, if they're worried about like nuclear war, nuclear exchange, how do we have secure underground facilities that are not, that are impervious to attack. But of course a lot of other things can happen in those things, not just underground, but potentially in the oceans. If this is, I don't think this is necessarily impossible if you have the ability to go under the ocean floor, at least in maybe the shelf areas where they're a little more shallow. There's a lot of possibilities here in terms of Proof, it's difficult. You know, a lot of this stuff is hidden very, very well hidden. In plain sight perhaps. But to answer your question, I don't know if I can answer it.

[Randy Anderson]

I think all of these are somewhat unanswerable questions, but you're as qualified as anybody.

[Richard Dolan]

What is your opinion of these new sightings of unidentified objects?

[Calvin Parker]

With all due respect to the Air Force, I believe that some of them.

[Richard Dolan]

Will prove to be of interplanetary origin.

[Calvin Parker]

My mind just went here and it's somewhat of a non sequitur but mid century UFO stuff. I remember watching a video of you talking about a letter that FDR had written about, very destructive weapon that America had acquired and that that had come from extraterrestrials. And you thought that that was maybe a valid letter. Am I getting this wrong?

[Richard Dolan]

Well, I'm trying to think. You might. There's the so called Majestic documents.

[Jesse]

You know, one of the people at this conference where we are is Ryan Wood, who's a very good friend of mine. I've known Ryan for years. He and his late father, Dr. Bob Wood of course are the curators of the Majestic documents which are kind of related to the MJ12 documents to some extent. And Ryan and his dad did extensive forensic analyses of those. Those are not just photographic negatives, those are actual pieces of paper that you can study them. But what you can say with the MJ12 documents. So they, they first appeared in 1984. They were probably sent from somewhere near Kirtland Air Force Base. And so we know that that's connection to the notorious Richard Doty. And they were sent to filmmaker and friend of Bill Moore, researcher, guy named Jamie Shandere, who has his own, had his own very interesting intel connections, I believe so. So that's how we get them. Now the thing is, you set the stage for this. So in the late 70s and the early 80s, the UFO field is being rocked by two major developments. So one was the recently strengthened Freedom of Information Act. So in the late 70s and through the 80s, early 80s, UFO researchers could petition the government for documents. And they were getting thousands of pages of documents related to UFOs. This is a shocking thing. You know, all through the 50s and 60s and most of the 70s, the government agencies, CIA, FBI, military agencies said look, we don't really, we don't do this, this is not an interest of ours, we don't really give a damn. And then suddenly thousands of pages of military failed interceptions and CIA memos and FBI investigations like it's all there, it's like they were clearly lying. So that's one thing. And so from that perspective alone, if you're on the side of the secrecy, you're thinking, are they going to shake the tree just enough and then the right document's going to come out and now we're screwed. Like, is that going to happen? So that was a concern. The other prong, the other threat to secrecy were the researchers who were engaging into looking in crash retrievals. People like the late Leonard Stringfield, who was the true pioneer of crash retrieval research, but also Stanton Friedman, also Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt and. And the late Don Berliner and then Tom Kerry and all these people. So, like there. But in the late 70s, there was a lot of. This was just slowly building. It wasn't. We didn't really know a lot about Roswell at that. Just. We're just starting to talk about Roswell. But that was a threat. So these two things. And then in the wake of all of that, we get these MJ12 documents, which are allegedly memos to Harry Truman or letters signed by Harry Truman describing the formation of this organization to manage the UFO secret, referring to crash retrievals and Roswell and. And all of this. And so it, you know, you had a lot of skeptics. The late Philip Class, a man that I think was deeply, deeply connected to the US Intelligence community, in my opinion, not just mine, said, well, you know, Truman's signature, that was not his actual signature. It was identical to another one. Well, I think they were using auto pen then as well, actually, if I'm not mistaken. So I don't really know if that matters. But that was supposed to make it, like, fake. It was a fake, so it was a hoax. New York Times was very happy to support that, but. And there are, you know, legit strong researchers who do think it's a hoax. Robert Hastings, you mentioned, very strong, very strong. And he and I in the past had some disagreements about that. And I very much respect Robert's research. So don't get me wrong there, but he does not believe that they're legit. And a lot of people don't. I don't know. I don't feel that way. I think that I don't know about those MJ12 documents. I don't really know where I stand on that. But I think when I look at the majestic documents that Ryan and Bob collected, you print them all out, it's this thick. It's like an inch and a half thick. And you just try reading them sometime. I did this 20 years ago. I was afraid of looking at this for the longest time, but I thought, all right, I have to read them. I printed them all off. I put them in my own little combined collection, and I just started reading them page after page. And they are highly sophisticated, extremely sophisticated, frankly. And so if you're thinking of this as a hoax, you have to ask yourself, who's creating this as a hoax? You have documents that are through the decades, the 40s and in the 50s and in the 60s, all in a very like. Seems exactly accurate format. The data that's in them is written in exactly the correct way. So it's not some guy in his basement doing it all by himself, that's for sure.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, there's documents in there. And actually, my memory is a little more fuzzy on this maybe than yours at this moment. But FDR did have some statements or letters, I believe, where he expressed an awareness of this phenomenon. There's another letter, supposedly from Albert Einstein Oppenheimer. Very interesting document. Yeah, I mean, those are debated, and I don't spend a lot of my time really fixating on them, but I go back to them every once in a while, and I suspect that there is a lot of truth in them.

[Calvin Parker]

I do, too. I wonder if they, you know. You know the name James Jesus Angleton, of course.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Calvin Parker]

So, you know, one of the founders of the CIA, kind of an Allen Dulles acolyte, Very deceptive and devious.

[Richard Dolan]

He ran U.S. counterintelligence for several decades.

[Calvin Parker]

Several decades and seemed very involved in the UFO issue. And this is really interesting. He was actually stationed in Italy at the time, or his father was Hugh Angleton at the time of the magenta crash in 1933, which is really.

[Richard Dolan]

I only recently learned this. Maybe they get that with you and Malgram's interview. I think maybe that's where I picked it up.

[Randy Anderson]

But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well.

[Richard Dolan]

Well, what I'm saying is, yeah, they did, because. Because Angelson was there.

[Calvin Parker]

And so it's. It's interesting. You know, I've heard, and I don't know if this is true, that maybe he had something to do with the MJ12 leaks. And in the 80s, it felt like, largely, maybe the US moved from a strategy of secrecy and denial to flood the zone. And flood the zone doesn't mean put out bs. It means put out partial truths and put out a lot. Put out a lot of truths.

[Richard Dolan]

That is the way disinformation works. This is Something. I'm really glad you bring this up, because what is disinformation? It's not the same as lies. You know, like, so let's say we're on the inside and we've got this secret to protect and we are afraid, like, at some point this is gonna come out. So how do we deal with this? So maybe you put it out, but you sandwich it between things. Or you stick at least one thing in there that can be factually demonstrated to be a hoax or a lie. And that's, you know, that's an inoculation. It's like you get inoculated against a disease by getting part of a virus, but it's deadened and your body recognizes it and can fight it. So it's like you become inoculated against the truth. The truth is put out there, but it's sandwiched in such a way that it's not credible.

[Calvin Parker]

I love that you say you're immune to it. And it's interesting, I think you have blue Book where it's just kind of rationalized. Explain the whole thing away. The Condon committee sort of kills it. And then in 74, Hynek seems to flip and they create UFOs, past, present and future. And from then on, there seems to be this kind of outward openness on the part of the DoD around UFOs. And in the 80s, it feels like you have Rick Doty doing all his stuff and you have this sort of flood the zone, like we're actually gonna.

[Randy Anderson]

Actively promote and see if this is.

[Calvin Parker]

Peak Cold War era.

[Richard Dolan]

I would say yes and no. I mean, officially, the Pentagon, throughout the 70s and 80s and 90s was like, no, this is nonsense. We can't do this at all. So officially speaking, there was never any, to my knowledge, a genuine promotion of a UFO reality coming from that institution. So I just say that. But there were, let's call them, shenanigans going on. And, you know, we've learned about Richard Doty, which is a really weird topic for me because I actually met Richard Doty once.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

He's extremely gracious, genuinely. Like, he's a nice guy when you meet him.

[Calvin Parker]

And I know, I'm sure he's extremely likable. That was his job.

[Richard Dolan]

He is. So you gotta be. But.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

That doesn't mean he's truthful, of course. But I do know for a fact that he has very high respect from within a lot of his colleagues from the intelligence community and from the, you know, the peripheral, like scientists and people who've worked with him, they like him, they respect him. His own father was, I don't know all the details but was deeply involved in Area 51 and with UFOs.

[Calvin Parker]

I didn't know that.

[Jesse]

Yes, yes.

[Richard Dolan]

And Richard Doty was kind of brought into that as a young office or young military person. So he like when he says these days like he knows it's true, which he says many times, like I, I think he's telling the truth on that. I think he is saying he knows it's true because he does know it's true, you know, in the early 80s, late 70s, early 80s. And I'm not here to defend this, but he was doing his job. Look, he was in the military. His job was to, I assume protect certain secrets that were at my Kirtland Air Force Base and the like. Paul Benowitz was very highly intelligent man looking at some of them and that's what Doty did. So he did kind of lead Benowitz astray there.

[Calvin Parker]

Doty also first shows up. This is kind of a little known thing about Doty. In 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base, Mario woods has an experience where he is, according to his hypnotic regression, abducted. At the very least. He ends up 10 miles away from Ellsworth Air Force Base.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

With marks on his body and his partner Michael Johnson in a catatonic state. He then goes through this whole debrief session and guess who's there, Rick Doty. And so it is interesting that I think a pretty, if you're into UFO stuff, you know, the Mario woods case seems pretty legit to me. It's in a line of, you know, all The Robert Hastings UFOs. Nukes.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

And then you have Doty show up, you know, a couple years later and he's definitely psyoping, you know, Benowitz.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And there's an Ellsworth, there's a document about Ellsworth there which has been manipulated and that's been traced back to Dodie. So at least I'm pretty sure. So you know, the thing is.

[Jesse]

Well.

[Richard Dolan]

I'm not going to like condemn and I try not to wag the finger too much at people. Like it's easy to do that. Everyone's got a job to do. Yeah, we have a job to do, which is to get past the BS and to try to understand the truth.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And well, I always say it's dangerous.

[Calvin Parker]

Enough just going for the truth. So don't go ad hominem against like. Yeah, there are people who are, it's like it's obvious that they're sort of counterintel or whatever. But like it would be one thing if they were clearly leading you astray on a single thing consistently and you're like, come on dude, stop doing that or whatever. But I think, you know, some people want you to stop your pursuit of truth in order to just antagonize those counterintel people or whatever. And then you're sort of losing. You're gonna get less close to the truth and you're gonna nuke yourself.

[Randy Anderson]

And it's just like.

[Calvin Parker]

So it's like, what do you want?

[Richard Dolan]

Like we all, we've all grown up. We all know the government does all kinds of stuff and it lies and lies. I started saying this probably before many other people. I've been on this for a long time. Of course I did a whole study on the history of false flags a few years ago. And so yes, we know there's shenanigans and they never stop. But is every single thing and op. And what I'm hearing are like some people out there, like they. It's almost like there's. The implication is the government wants us to believe in UFOs now therefore.

[Jesse]

They.

[Richard Dolan]

Want us to believe in aliens now. Therefore it must all be black budget special ops.

[Calvin Parker]

That's right.

[Richard Dolan]

That the whole alien thing is a ruse. And I'm like, that is so wrong. You are so wrong if you do that and you're going down a very incorrect path.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, well, it's this reflexive. If the government says something, I'm gonna put a minus sign against it.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Calvin Parker]

And so you're gonna be totally thought controlled as a result. If you have some, and maybe there is some, it is important to have the hermeneutic understanding of where the government stands on a thing.

[Richard Dolan]

But there is no the government. There's the whole thing.

[Calvin Parker]

That's true. They're fascinating.

[Richard Dolan]

Everyone's talking like, oh, the gov. But what you have is. I mean, look, the Pentagon alone is a trillion dollars a year is a mountain of labyrinths and fighting bureaucracies. And I can tell you for a fact, you go back to the earliest UFO history and there's always been factional wars on this subject within the military, within the intelligence community. They don't all agree on policy. They have never agreed on policy. In the 1940s and early 50s, there were factions that wanted openness on UFOs from within that military. We know that. Read the old books by Donald Kehoe. He actually lays it out very well. So that was the case Then it is the case now. And there are people we'll just mention Lou here again, who within that system who support openness. And there are other people who absolutely do not. And they will fight to the last, you know, the last battle that they can. So that's the fact. And so when you're getting messages coming out of there, it's not. It's not like a unified system. It's like, who's the faction that's speaking there?

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

It's a war that is going on. And. And we need to understand this. Yes, I understand that there's a war going on and inside our establishment right now, which is in real trouble.

[Calvin Parker]

Yep.

[Richard Dolan]

Okay. There. There's a lot of desperation on a lot of fronts, UFOs and beyond. That's going to breed factional disputes galore and hard, you know, battle plans from within to. To disable the other side. I don't understand that.

[Calvin Parker]

Totally. I couldn't agree more. And I think there are probably less outright liars in the space than people trying to front run the truth. So you see, disclosure is going.

[Randy Anderson]

Maybe you have to get in front.

[Calvin Parker]

Of it or something. And so I think there are all sorts of factions battling on that front. Speaking of secret science, which I agree with you. I think the second you look at this topic for a week plus, you realize that there probably is secret science going on and there's a real UFO phenomena going on. And those two are two disparate threads. We spoke on the phone once about Thomas Townsend Brown. I don't know if you remember this.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, a little bit, yeah. Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

And you told me an interesting story.

[Richard Dolan]

What the hell did I say?

[Calvin Parker]

I cannot believe that I talked about how his work might have made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And then you got an interesting antidote.

[Jesse]

I do, yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Okay, so I'll tell this. This is true. Yeah. So back in 2008, I was at a conference in. Was it in Vegas or in Denver? I think in Las Vegas. So, yeah. And I met with a brilliant, very cool retired Air Force colonel with a PhD. So he had a very strong knowledge of the UFO topic. He. We had a lot of interesting conversations. I met him and I met his wife too. He's really nice lady. So we sat down and he's. One of the things he said is he was part of the B2 stealth bomber project. And I said, oh, I was so, like young. I was so enthusiastic. And I just read a paper by Paul Lavoiette.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Who is researcher on electrogravitics and had things to say about the B2 stealth bomber having incorporated essentially, basically principles of electrogravitics to give it a form of lift, an additional kind of lift. So, yeah, so I'm sitting with this colonel, and I'm like, here. And he's, like, closer to me than you are right now. And also, we were in a pretty crowded area, so there's, like, people milling about, and I'm not recording anything. We're just talking. And I said, sienna, have you heard this paper by Paul Lavallette talking about electrogravitics as part of the B2? And he. He was so nice, but at this moment, he literally put his hand out like this. Stop. And he looked this way, and he looked this way, and he leaned forward and he just whispered, that's bullshit. And he wouldn't talk anything more about it. And as soon as he said that, I thought, all right, that's gotta be true.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's got to be true.

[Calvin Parker]

That's a kind of a telltale sign.

[Richard Dolan]

Definitely.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

It was very interesting moment. I didn't think I would hit a sore spot like that or something that sensitive, but it was clearly very sensitive.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah. It's so fascinating. And as a good segue to, you know, your current work on USO submersible objects, Thomas Townsend Brown was actually a Navy guy.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

And it seems like, you know, he was in the Navy, I think, from like, 1933-42. And it seems like the Navy knew a thing or Two, maybe, about UFOs before the air Force actually did.

[Richard Dolan]

It's totally possible. Yes, absolutely. For example, one USO account, which is actually the account that started me on this book project that I'm in. Nearly done. I did the first volume that's out. 2 and 3 are coming out. Go get it was an account right by the Aleutian Islands near a little island called Adak island in the summer. Excuse me, of 1945. So the Pacific War was still happening. The European War was done by then. And there was a US transport ship called the Delarov, which was coming back from Japan to Seattle. And it was passing by. It's still in the middle of ocean, but north of it. The closest Aleutian island was this place called Adak. You can look it up on Google Earth. And according to the primary witness who was interviewed, a man named Robert Crawford. And he spoke with a number of researchers, including Dr. James McDonald, who's kind of a legend himself. Anyway, Crawford said, yeah, the crew, they saw this. He didn't see the Object come from the water. He saw it right after that. But other people did see it emerge from the water. Disc shaped object about 200ft in diameter. Circled their transport ship twice, totally silent. He said there were high winds. This thing should have been bouncing around in the wind. It was rock solid, totally stable. And then it zipped off to I think the east or the southeast so fast. And he said you could see this flash of light as it left. So that's, that's U.S. navy, you have.

[Randy Anderson]

Just documented 670 something unidentified submersible object cases. You've created this whole database and taxonomy around them. Which case shocked you the most and why?

[Jesse]

There's some very excellent ones. One of the early ones did shock me. It was from 1825 and it was in the South Pacific. So it was a British vessel called the HMS Blonde. There's a naturalist on board. I liken it to. In the movie Master and Commander, there was that great buddy of Russell Crowe, the Doctor. And so I think of him as this type of a guy. So he's the naturalist. He wrote a diary. His name is Andrew Bloxham. And he kept a very detailed account of the travels of this ship. During this they actually went from Hawaii to the UK back to Hawaii and then down to the Cook Islands and on their way to South America. And so on the return trip from Hawaii, they're passing the Cook Islands. And he writes in his diary at 3:30am on August 12, 1825, this is 200 years ago, he said the night watch reported this orange spherical object rise from the ocean at 7 degrees. He said it lit the deck of the ship so bright you could pick a pin off the deck. It then descended back into the water and then rose a second time and then descended into the water. And what's interesting, you could find this is a PDF online. You could look it up. And he, you know, before all of that, this is like just really detailed account of the travel. It's very meticulous. And after that it's very like conventional. Very meticulous. Interesting. He published this as a diary at the time. So it's been in publication for 200 years. And there's just this one entry of this. He said it was red hot, like a cannon shot. It was I think about the size of the moon or the sun, although there was no moon out that night. So there's no confusion with that. And that's it. It's just this bizarre thing. I read this and like holy crap. And what I, I like to Pair it with another encounter from 150 years later involving a United States aircraft carrier, the USS John F. Kennedy, which was in July 2, 1971. It had just finished doing a series of qualification tests, which they do periodically to stay current. And we have this account from the man who ran communications at that time. His name is James Copper with a K. And he wrote about this several times around 2000, 2001. He spoke to the disclosure project in 2000. So he's on record for that. So anyway, this is what he says. July 2, 1971, it's 8:30 at night. He's running the comms. And he said all the inbound communication starts spouting gibberish. He's like, hmm, what's going on? And then he's on. Here's on the intercom, some sailor, like, freaking out, screaming, it's God, it's the end of the world. That's what he hears.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

So that gets his attention. So he goes out and outside to see a glowing orange, like roiling orange, yellowish, reddish. I think he's. I'm thinking he said it was the size of a beach ball at arm's length, which would be kind of big. It was just above the ship or maybe off to the side. It wasn't totally clear. He said, I'm standing there watching this for about 20 seconds. A lot of other people, he said, sailors were one guy. He said he had to be sedated. This was a really intense moment. And then the ship goes to battle station, General quarters, Battle station. So he had to go back to his command. And he didn't see it after that. But for the next 20 minutes, the ship was on battle, on general quarters. And he stated that the weapon systems went offline. He learned later, and trying to think what else. That was essentially it. So no communications, no weapons. And then that ended. And he doesn't know how this departed because he didn't get to see it, but that's his story. And then he actually said, by the time we got into port a few days later, the only discussion about this at all was from the ship's captain. He got on the ship's intercom and said, well, as you all know, certain things happen aboard a US Naval vessel that have to remain on the vessel and not to be discussed anywhere else. I hope I made myself clear, you know, something like that. And that was it. That was it. But what was interesting made me think of it is that this was. I mean, it sounded like it could have been the exact same type of thing that Andrew Bloxham back in 1825 was describing this spherical object. And I guess I'll just say, you know, we hear a lot of people talking these days about orbs and spheres. And I have to say, and noticed a large number of USO encounters do involve these kinds of orb like spherical objects, which frequently and certainly I think in the case of the. The jfk, engage in some kind of lecture of magnetic interference. And there's a lot of that, a lot of that goes on. I guess I'll just add when I finished doing all of these cases and hunting them down in all of these disparate sources and just generally wanting to breathe life into them, most of these were completely forgotten cases. But had a lot of long conversations with my wife Tracy, about this, and she said, you know, you should really look at, pull out some relevant categories for each of these cases. And I did that. I pulled out each case, like 15 different categories like special effects from there. Was it at daytime or at nighttime? What was the shape of the object and all of this? And what I noticed after looking at all of the statistics and I put a very amateurish spreadsheet together. Large, large, but amateurish spreadsheet. But it helped me to see patterns. And I noticed about 10% of all the cases involved EM interference. About one out of 10. It's quite a lot, but one, that percentage is doubled when I looked at the military cases. So there was a 2x likelihood that a military encounter would have electromagnetic interference. I'll just add one other thing about that. In the few cases where people reported missing time with the USO encounter, and there are such or sightings of a being in connection to eoso, and there's a few of those, those instances are four times as likely to report electromagnetic interference. And when I looked at these numbers, I mean, maybe my data sample's small, I don't know, but it's as large as, you know, whatever it is. But it makes me think that these EM encounters, they're not accidental. They're kind of a tool, maybe a weapon. Like they're not. It's not a random thing. So I'm getting a little off track here. But it's just. It was fascinating going into all of these, looking at these trends and these relationships that exist within these sightings, there's an intelligence. And these guys, they know what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing.

[Randy Anderson]

Do we have a USO crash retrieval program? The thing that comes to mind for me is I think Howard Hughes had like, it was like a front company for the CIA. It was called like Global Marine Corporation. And out of that came the Glomar Explorer.

[Richard Dolan]

Right.

[Randy Anderson]

And you know, we know that we've retrieved exotic technology from the ocean floor. So have we possibly retrieved USOs?

[Jesse]

I think yes, I believe it's probably a. Yes, the Glomar Explorer. Yeah. This Hughes Corporation, they actually recovered a sunken Soviet submarine in the 1970s. And it was an incredible feat because they went down something like three miles down to the Pacific floor. They got it, it broke, but they recovered half of it. They actually gave a proper military burial to some of the Soviet sailors that they recovered. So that was an incredible thing. And in terms of recovering discs, I received a communication from a gentleman who was former U.S. navy. He told me about having attended a conference, not this one, but another, another excellent one, the International UFO Congress, really great place there. And he said, you know, I'm hanging outside and I run to this other Navy guy between lectures and we're just chatting. And this guy was aboard the USS Nautilus submarines. That was the first nuclear powered submarine. And he said, you know, the Nautilus went through a retrofitting or a refitting, excuse me, in the mid-60s, which is true, we know about this. And he said one thing that we did is we had like this, we created this hatch, this side hatch to be able to acquire objects that were disks, unknown, unknown objects in the ocean. Now I mean, the guy like wrote to me and then he never really was able to follow up with this Navy guy, so he lost that whole thread. So he wrote to me and we went back and forth on it and I reported that it's in my first volume here. I don't know if this is true or not, like, because a Navy submarine is not going to be able to go down to the ocean, the bottom of the ocean floor that is way too deep. But it can, you know, about 10 or 15% of our oceans are basically ocean shelf. And that might be a different thing. And you might be able to have a submarine kind of work that area if this is a true thing. Definitely. Look, we have a long, long history. Crash retrievals is a really strong interest of mine personally. And there is no question we've had number of crash retrievals or recoveries of these uap. We could do a whole interview on that. Frankly, there's just a lot to say about that. Now those are retrievals that we know about from land. You know, the waters of this world are much more remote to us and Much more mysterious. And I don't think a lot of these stories come through. There is one gentleman that I did speak to many years ago. His name is David Noble White Horse. And he was. Did you not talk about this?

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah, we did.

[Jesse]

I thought we did. Yeah. So. And did you interview him?

[Randy Anderson]

No, but it made its way into the Malm Grins thing that I did. And then I realized it was actually, you know, I think there. Yeah, it's a whole.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah.

[Randy Anderson]

Can of worms. But this, I think it was a year before. I think that was actually a little off. It was one year because it was. It wasn't Bluegill Triple Prime. I think it was one year before.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, 62.

[Randy Anderson]

And he's a really interesting character.

[Jesse]

He's a great guy. You know, I interviewed him, I don't know, 15 years ago and I can't even remember how I found him, but we talked extensively and he was a member of. Aboard a US ship called the Finch back in 1962. They were involved in what became Bluegill Triple prime, part of what is called Operation Dominic. You can look this up. And it was a series of high altitude nuclear detonations. This is at the peak of like we were just going crazy detonating these massive hydrogen bombs. It was crazy. So he said it was October. This is like right around the time of the Cuban missile crisis, October 25, 1962. They were off a little place called Johnston island. This is about 500 miles off of Hawaii, out in the Pacific. And he said, we did a detonation. He said we often would have bogeys in the atmosphere before we would do a detonation. Like that is UFOs. And they would always disappear just before we would detonate the bomb. So they're hanging out, checking it out, he said, on this occasion. So we had to do the detonation and we were all ordered below deck. This is protocol. And then to his surprise, some other officer or some other guy comes down and says, you, you, you and you and you. I want you out now. Out on the, I think the port side, one of the sides. He says, you are now to face forward. You are not to look to the left, you are not to look to the right. Just look ahead of you and observe. And they're like, okay, whatever. Orders are orders. And so what they see is this long cigar shaped object zooming by horizontally. And that's all he saw. Then he was doing a cross train with radar. So later that day or evening, he's talking to the radar guys and they're all talking about the bogey that was. Seemed to be shot out of the sky. And, and this is clearly what he saw. And it landed at some point in the Pacific. And they were sending a series of ships to go and see about trying to recover it.

[Randy Anderson]

Fascinating. So actually I did a little research. I think the Finch might have been an earlier Operation Dominic test. We can workshop this live. Anybody could search. But there's. I have a lot of reasons to believe that there were anomalous objects that came out, actually. Bob Jacobs, 1964. You know, Vandenberg case. He was stationed at Johnston Atoll a few months before the Vandenberg case, where he saw. He was a photo instrumentation specialist. He was on Big Sur and he saw a UFO wraparound Atlas 8F.

[Richard Dolan]

That's right.

[Jesse]

That's right. And only two years apart.

[Randy Anderson]

And he said it was, you know, ubiquitous water cooler conversation that a UFO shoot down was being used as a cover for shooting down a Soviet nuke.

[Richard Dolan]

The scuttlebutt at the time by every.

[Calvin Parker]

Single person on that island.

[Richard Dolan]

When I got there, this was engineers, technicians, my airmen who had been down there before me. We were told that what happened is the Soviets had launched a nuke into orbit that was. And JFK told Khrushchev, take that down.

[Randy Anderson]

So I found that to be an extremely interesting. Another firsthand testimony.

[Jesse]

That's wacky.

[Randy Anderson]

And this was around Bluegill Triple Prime. So this was. That was, you know, what it. This detonation that had happened a year earlier. And then you have the whole Malmo testimony, which I think is very important as well. I want to ask you. So this begets all sorts of questions around secrecy. You know, everybody talks about the Air Force. You have in 1947, twining writing this memo. You know, he's the head of Air Material Command for the Air Force, and he's expressing kind of earnest confusion as to how UFO, how UFOs work. But he says they're, you know, real and not visionary or fictitious. The Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intel organization in the U.S. you know, 1890s, you know, they call it the silent service. The Navy. What does the Navy know and how deeply embedded are they in this issue? Even the reports that came out, I think in 20, 2020 and 2021 were Office of Naval Intelligence led.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Navy, I think, has been deeply, deeply involved in this from the beginning. It took me a long time, even, you know, researching this for years to fully appreciate just how deep their involvement was. If you go back and look at some of the Original books that were published by people like Donald Kehoe. He's one of the people that kind of was my springboard. He kind of talks a lot about this. Kehoe was a Marine, so associated with the Navy, and so he knew a lot of top Navy brass. He was friends with many admirals. And so he had a real ear to what was going on there and described quite frequently the rivalry between the Navy and the Air Force. This is very well known. I mean, after the Second World War, the Air Force was the new organization. They had a lot of prestige. They were the only branch that had nuclear weapons. The Navy wanted their own nukes. They eventually got it. There was something around 1949 or so called the Revolt of the Admirals. This was a big political fight between the Navy and the Air Force. So there was all this kind of bureaucratic, institutional rivalry that already existed, but. But it also had to do with this. The flying saucers, as they were being called back then. The Air Force was getting all the attention. But one thing that Kehoe wrote about even back then was like Navy people were having UFO encounters. And the Navy personnel would get really angry because Air Force people would come on the Navy ships and throw their weight around and take over the investigations. And the Navy guys were really resentful of this. The Secretary of The Navy in 1950 was a guy named Dan Kimball. He had his own UFO sighting. So he was flying in duel with Admiral Arthur Radford, who's quite famous. They were flying out from California to Hawaii in 1950. I think it was 1950, yes. And Kehoe wrote about this. So what happened was Kimball's plane and Radford's plane were both in accosted by an object that circled around their aircraft. They were like a number of miles apart. But they both had this happen. And as a result, Kimball decided we are going to have our own separate investigation of this. To hell with the Air Force. But at least according to what Kehoe learned, it didn't seem to take off, didn't really go anywhere. But the rivalry was always there.

[Randy Anderson]

I think Ross Coulthardt is somewhere here. And he ended up having a conversation with Nat Kobitz, who is Director of Science and Technology for the Navy. And this is the end of Nat's life. I think he was dying of cancer. And he said that he had seen UFO technology at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. And it was involved these sort of, you know, bonded metals that were fabricated at the atomic level and said all sorts of other interesting stuff.

[Jesse]

So, yeah, I've Heard about this. I've not actually listened to it yet. And I'm, I'm kind of really excited about doing that.

[Richard Dolan]

General Eisenhower is called back to duty. Meeting Defense Secretary James Forrestal to discuss many vital questions.

[Calvin Parker]

So one other kind of interesting axis around that time, Navy James Forrestal. James Forrestal is the Secretary of Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense. Meeting a very mysterious, untimely death.

[Richard Dolan]

He was murdered.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay, let's hear that.

[Richard Dolan]

He was absolutely murdered.

[Calvin Parker]

Did he have anything to do with the ufo?

[Richard Dolan]

Maybe, yeah, probably. Okay, probably.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

So Forrestal, this was one of my real pet projects when I broke into this field. And Forrestal was a fascinating, very brilliant man, of course, kind of a financial wizard. I think he played football at Princeton back in, you know, as an undergraduate. Just. So then he becomes, after he makes his fortune, he becomes one of those so called dollar a year men under FDR for the war. Basically to support the war effort. He becomes under Secretary of the Navy and then Secretary of the Navy at the end of the war. And he, he was actually one of these guys.

[Jesse]

What is daddication?

[Calvin Parker]

The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona.

[Richard Dolan]

We call him Dae Date for short.

[Calvin Parker]

Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we work together. We did a good job.

[Randy Anderson]

That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by.

[Jesse]

The US Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council, who fought.

[Richard Dolan]

Against a strong Secretary of Defense position when, when we were going through the reorganization in 1947, National Security Act. Kind of a total. Let's like, we're done with the Republic. We're creating the empire now, people. And we got to reorganize the whole military system. Forrestal fought tenaciously for naval independence under a unified Secretary of Defense. And the real issue was, does the SecDef have budgetary authority over the independent services? That's really where the power is. And Forrestal particularly fought so well that he won that battle. And the Secretary of Defense originally did not have the authority to tell the army and the Navy and the Air Force what their budget would be. He didn't have that capability. He was a weak sec def. And then, irony of ironies, Forrestal ends up in that position as Secretary of Defense. So he, for his entire two and a half year Tenure in that role. One of the biggest problems he had with Truman, we tend to forget this, was that Truman wanted to cut the military budget significantly. At the same time, he wanted to expand US military presence globally. So there's kind of a disconnect there. And the Joint Chiefs were saying like, $15 billion. Are you out of your mind? Which, of course, that's nothing today. But at the time it was also not very much. They wanted like 30 billion, I think. And Forrestal sided with them, but he was kind of stuck because Truman's just like, just make it happen. And so they had a very unhappy relationship over that. Then at the same time, we have the flying saucers making their appearance in the military world and in the American psyche. It's like we're talking about it. And this was something that he was definitely very aware of. It was impossible not to be. I read Forrestal's published two volume diaries which were published after his death. We'll get to his death in a second. And of course there's not a mention of UFOs or flying sauces in there. But anyway, so what ended up happening? So Forrestal and Truman, their relationship became rocky. Truman's up for reelection in 1948. Everyone's like, sure, he's gonna lose. Thomas Dewey, Republicans sure win. And Forrestal, bad move, had met with Dewey and it got out. And Truman was pissed, like, you betrayed me. But anyway, so Truman wins, shocks the world, tells Forrestal, shortly after that, you're done, I think in January 49, he says, you're out, you're out. And they give. But, you know, publicly they give Forrestal this nice going away ceremony. It's like, you're a great American and all this stuff. And this is the crazy thing. So for this is 1-49-forrestal leaves this ceremony, he gets into a limousine, and in the limousine is the Secretary of the Air Force, Stuart Symington. Now, Symington was like one of Forrestal's major political enemies. Forrestal was convinced, and I bet he was right, that he was being followed. Symington was probably involved. There was a journalist back then named Drew Pearson who was writing stories about Forrestal. And people were noticing all throughout this time that Forrestal seemed like he was unraveling. He started developing these weird nervous tics. He said, I'm being followed by strange foreign looking men. He's looking around, he's very paranoid. He started dipping his fingers into glasses of water all the time and just wetting his lips like there's some weird thing going on. With him. So. So he gets out of this meeting, and he goes into the limo, and there's Stuart Symington, who. They hate each other. And all that we know is that Symington said this. I want to talk to you about something. No one, to my knowledge, knows what actually happened on the limo ride back. They were going back to Forrestal's office and. But what we do know is that when Forrestal got out of that limo, he was. He goes into his office, closes the door, and he's shut in there for, like, hours. Finally, his secretary knocks on the door, and she opens the door, and he's. He's sitting in his chair. He's just staring ahead at, like, this blank wall, and he's repeating one sentence.

[Calvin Parker]

What is it?

[Richard Dolan]

You are a loyal fellow. So he's out of it. So they start making the phone calls, you know, and suddenly the team comes and they collect him and they fly him down to Hobie Sound in Florida. And he's there for, I think, six weeks, five. No, maybe less than that. A few weeks. It's been a little while since I've remembered, since I got into all of this. At one point down there, he apparently, we're told, tried to hang himself with his belt. That failed. They bring in a Army psychiatrist by the name of Meninger, I think William Meninger. He was kind of famous. He had a clinic. And then one of his friends, Robert Lovett, a future Secretary of Defense himself, goes to visit him. And apparently, Forrestal's first things to love it, first words were, bob, they're trying to kill me. So then they fly him back up to Maryland to the Bethesda Naval Hospital there. I think it's 16 floors. Against all the advice of the attending physicians, they take him to the top floor because they're like, if this guy's suicidal, that's the last place he should take him. He should be on the ground floor. But no, national security people said top floor. So he's sequestered there. Now he's visited by a few interesting people. We all know Truman. Yeah. Oh, one thing they certainly did is they grabbed his diaries. Like, that's not making it out. They expunged the shit out of those diaries before they were ever published. But Truman forestall successor Lewis Johnson, Lyndon Baines Johnson, young guy named John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and who else? Forrestal's own brother William was not. Did see him, finally was able to see him after a long, long time. Forrestal was never allowed to see his spiritual advisor, a chaplain by the name of Sheehy, Father Sheehy. What guy in a hospital is not allowed to see his priest or rabbi or spiritual minister? Like that's kind of weird, right? Varsal wasn't allowed. So anyway, he's there for, I think that's six weeks. Yeah. And he's getting better. He develops a friendship with one of his Navy corpsman guards. Like they're in eight hour ships outside his door. And one of them, they just strike up a really good relationship. And Forrestal says, you know, when I'm out of here, I want you to be my assistant. So this is really a good thing. So he's thinking about the future. But his brother William, was it William or Henry? Yeah, Henry. He is angry that the Navy's not letting his brother out.

[Jesse]

Oh.

[Richard Dolan]

And meanwhile, over in that whole last week, Forrestal's main attending physician was out at a conference. So the hen house has no protection here, really. So anyway, Henry calls the hotel, the hospital, and he's staying, I think at the Watergate Hotel.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay. Wow.

[Richard Dolan]

Is that where it was? Yeah, I think that's where it was. And he calls them and he says, if my brother is not out by tomorrow, God damn it, I'm going in and I'm. And I'm going to raise holy hell and you're not going to like what I have to say. So that was the. That was May 21, 1949. And on the night of May 21, going into the 22nd, that's when James Forrestal did his 16th floor bungee jump out the window. So what happens? So what we know is that Forrestal's Navy corpsman, who he was pals with, who had the midnight shift somehow went AWOL and was gone. No explanation. New guy comes in and at 1:30-1:45 we are told he opened the door to check in on the secretary on Forrestal. And he sees Forrestal up in his bed and he is reading a book and he's looks like he's taking notes, this type of thing. He asked, would you like a sedative? And this is according to his testimony. Forrestal said, no, I'm good. And according to the replacement Corman, he said, the next time I went in there, he was gone. Well, he had gone out the window. So what? Apparently the official story is that Forrestal is transcribing an ancient Greek play, the Death of Ajax. It's actually really amazing stuff, but Sophocles, right?

[Calvin Parker]

Or who is it?

[Richard Dolan]

That's Sophocles. Yeah, that's a Sophocles One. And he stops transcribing in the middle of one word. Nightingale, I think, stops in the middle of it and decides, apparently, that he must kill himself at this very instant.

[Calvin Parker]

Wow.

[Richard Dolan]

So he, according to the official story, gets up.

[Jesse]

And.

[Richard Dolan]

And I think there's a shower where he could have done this more easily, but he didn't do that. He leaves his room, goes out into the hallway. There's a little window there behind a radiator. You know, the radiators that were ubiquitous back in those days. And he takes his bathrobe cord, ties it very tightly around his neck. Ties the other end not so tightly, I guess, around the radiator. And think of this as a weird way to kill yourself. Tries to hang himself outside the window.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

No suicide.

[Richard Dolan]

I don't think anyone's ever tried to do that.

[Calvin Parker]

No.

[Richard Dolan]

So according to the official story, the cord slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

Now, let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be? I mean, Forrestal had been very athletic as a younger man, but he was small.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

A lot more frail. He wasn't really doing great. Couple of big, tough Navy guys or big, tough young guys grab him and throw them the hell out the window.

[Calvin Parker]

Then tie the bathroom, the radiator, after the fact. Yeah, yeah, that sounds.

[Richard Dolan]

That is. I'm absolutely convinced that's what happened.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And then this is 14 years before the. The assassination of John F. Kennedy. So you have a country that is. They're going to believe every single thing the military says. They just won World War II.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

They're national heroes. And what they said, they immediately said, it's a suicide. They followed up with a kind of investigation, which. I read the transcript, most of it anyway. The Willicutts review, I think it's called. They actually interviewed the Navy corpsman who was on duty. You'd think, like, this is your main guy. You're like, you gotta really grill this guy. I think he was in for like, 15 minutes and gone like, wow. Like, thank you for your testimony, young man. You can go.

[Calvin Parker]

Whoa.

[Richard Dolan]

There was no. No, no. No investigation, no critical examination.

[Calvin Parker]

I believe Forestall and JFK actually knew each other from the Marshall Plan much earlier. Actually. They had had some interactions which is.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, you know. Well, I'm not sure how much I knew about that, so.

[Calvin Parker]

And believe that, though it's so fascinating. Another. Another Forestall thread, possibly related to UFOs, is, I believe one of his direct reports was Admiral Richard Byrd. And so you have Operation High Jump.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Right. That would be bird. Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

In 46. And you have, you know, off the coast or down the coast of Argentina, you have this big fleet of American ships going for. I don't really understand what the story is like. It's a very weird story. It's kind of weird, yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

I don't even know if I believe the high jump thing. I think I don't.

[Calvin Parker]

Do you believe, like when you say you believe the high jump thing, do you believe it was even a mission to begin with?

[Richard Dolan]

No, no, I think it was, but I don't believe they ran into basically.

[Calvin Parker]

Space laser Nazi flying saucers.

[Richard Dolan]

I don't think I do, no.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And because I remember I read Byrd's full statement that he gave, and if you really read the whole thing, I don't think he's really talking about flying saucers. There was a death or more than one death. A couple. I mean, it's very difficult conditions down in Antarctica. So that's one thing. But my thing is like if they ran it, if they were chased away by super advanced technology, well, like a year and two years and three years later, like we went. Right. We went back to Antarctica. It's not like we didn't go back there.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

So maybe there are details that I'm missing and I will fully, like, look, if someone is able to show me a really strong case for it, I'll change my mind in a heartbeat. I'm not committed, but I to like thinking it's prosaic, but I just don't know that I'm convinced it's that they're in to not.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, it's really. It's really spotty. It's like. I think he came back and he gave a speech, but it's unclear the problem.

[Jesse]

He said we're living in a new.

[Richard Dolan]

World now where from pole to pole danger can come.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

I'm paraphrasing probably badly, but he's talking about the fact that we have nuclear weapons and there will be delivery systems. Everyone knew it was all going to happen.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And that's a smaller. We're living in a smaller world, in a dangerous world. I don't know that he was talking about aliens.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Or, you know, whatever. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other.

[Jesse]

Things not because they are easy, but.

[Richard Dolan]

Because they are hard.

[Randy Anderson]

You have Danny Sheehan in the audience here, the great Danny Sheehan who's done incredible research around this. Do you think you just actually did a great show on this, on your podcast. Do you think there is a connection between JFK's assassination and UFOs?

[Jesse]

I do.

[Randy Anderson]

We just had an 80,000 document drop. That was less helpful than. I mean, it's like, well, I'm more confused, you know, afterwards than going out. Like, I'd rather just listen to Danny on it.

[Jesse]

I liken to JFK's murder, to Agatha Christie's murder on the Orient Express, in which, spoiler alert, everyone killed the guy. There was. There were more than one motive. There were many, many motives. To kill. To assassinate President Kennedy.

[Richard Dolan]

Many.

[Jesse]

He was a threat on every level you can imagine. You know, my wife and I just rewatched jfk. Oliver Stone's great movie.

[Randy Anderson]

Great movie.

[Jesse]

Just like less than a month ago. I'm really glad. Back into the left, remember that? But that was a great movie. And see, he brought up the Vietnam connection, which I think is legit. He also brought up Operation Mongoose. That's the whole Cuban operation. That's absolutely part of it. He didn't bring up some other things. Like there's the whole Federal Reserve connection. Kennedy was a threat on that. And the whole nuclear connection, where I think that this was brought up in the movie where Kennedy really was interested in a kind of a nuclear reduction and maybe disarmament to some extent. So Kennedy was the guy who made the mistake of thinking just because he's president, that he was actually running the show. He goes up against this national security establishment that was like, no way. We're not going to let. They're not. You are like a traitor communist. That's how they saw him. And we're gonna. We're gonna have to kill you for our. To protect this country. That's their rationalization. But the UFO subject. Yes, this is, I think, absolutely must be brought into it. The interview that you're referring to is with a gentleman who's here. His name is Philip Lavelle, and he's a very good friend of ours. He's not a published author on jfk, but he. He knows that assassination as well as any person alive. No lie. And. And he's a great friend. And so we talked about it and about the potential UFO connection there. And he's. He's on board with it as well. I think he believes that this is absolutely part of the picture. You know, there was a memo JFK did sign on November 11th, so 11 days before he was assassinated. I think it was November 11th, wasn't it? Or the 12th.

[Richard Dolan]

12Th.

[Jesse]

12Th, yeah. Thank you.

[Calvin Parker]

You.

[Jesse]

Where he's directing the Central Intelligence Agency to coordinate UFO data with the Soviet Union for, for, you know, laudable reasons, I would say. So that was part of his psyche right there. He was going against the system. You look at the majestic documents which you referred to and there's the. Something called, the so called burned memo where Lancer, and that was the code name for Kennedy was described. Oh, I wish I could remember the exact wording of this. But an operation has to be done on him if he's too dangerous and it must be wet. And that refers to wet, wet work, which is assassinations. So, and that was, that was written shortly before the assassination. I can't remember the date of that. So, yeah, I mean, I think Kennedy, but I don't think it was only the UFO situation. I mean, John F. Kennedy is complex. There's a lot to see there. And as I mentioned, Philip Lavelle. But the reason is, Philip said, you know, you talk to JFK researchers and they absolutely will not go there. They will not even to this day, they will not want to talk about the UFO connection. You see this in all aspects of the alternative community. It's like, well, I'm already taking slings and arrows from the establishment for this. I don't want to talk, I don't want to wear this other album albatross around my neck. But, but it, it is true. And the UFO phenomenon, look, it is, it is the elephant in the room of United States and world history of the 20th century. And, and all the academicians, all the mainstream historians and analysts, they ignore it over and over again. You know, the first Director of the CIA, Roscoe Helen Carter, was into UFOs big time.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Why does no one, why did none of the historians talk about this?

[Randy Anderson]

And he joined.

[Jesse]

Yeah, he was a board member.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Until he resigned suddenly. At the moment where in 1962, Donald Kehoe, his friend, they were trying to get congressional hearings. It looked like it was going to happen. And a week later, Hill and Carter says, yeah, I'm out of nightcap. Look, the Air Force is doing everything they could. I think we should lay off.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

And that was the end of that. So there's a story here that establishment historians ignored for years and years and years and years. It is the elephant in the room. If we do not understand the impact of the UFO or UAP phenomenon on world history, we're not going to understand a whole lot. We're going to miss a big part of the picture.

[Richard Dolan]

Reports of flying saucers are nothing new. From the beginning of recorded Time men have been seeing unexplainable things in the sky.

[Calvin Parker]

Can we go rapid fire through some crashes?

[Richard Dolan]

Okay.

[Calvin Parker]

I just want to get a real or hoax.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, wow. All right. Well, I'll see.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay. Roswell. Oh, real Kingman.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes.

[Calvin Parker]

Real Kecksburg.

[Richard Dolan]

Yep. That's a good one. I don't believe it was the bell. Some people say it's okay just because it looked like it superficially. First of all, the bell was not a flying device. It was.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, it was like some sort of torsion chamber thing, high voltage electricity thing.

[Richard Dolan]

And it probably did use rotating mercury, you know, like pressurized mercury and all of that, which is very important for electrogravitics. And you want to get anti gravitic lift. Not my specialty. I should stop right there. But it was not a flying device by any means, according to the legend. You know, Cook, I think, wrote about the Hunt for Zero Point. That's a really good book.

[Calvin Parker]

Amazing.

[Richard Dolan]

That's a really good book. And he broke this out a little over 20 years ago and he said, according to. I think this was brought out in a post World War II trial of Nazis in Eastern Europe, in Czechoslovakia, where they talked about this and the claim was like you had a bunch of scientists, like 60, a bunch of them died from the effects of this and then the rest were executed at the end of the war. So they wouldn't talk. Yeah, that's the story.

[Calvin Parker]

The De Glocket thing is fascinating because you see a rig there now where maybe like a bell shaped thing. I mean it looks like that shape. It's really fascinating. And then I think he's also documented through this Polish journalist Igor Witkowski, who documented that Ernest Grawitz, who was basically this SS medical chief who worked directly with Josef Mengele and another guy named Walter Gerlock, who is a gravitational expert in physics. We're working on this project. And so you have a gravity guy and then you have a guy working with like biological, you know, specimens doing. And we know the Nazis did like Experimental Cell Block 9. Like they were doing weird stuff.

[Jesse]

They were.

[Richard Dolan]

And they were doing a lot of like off.

[Jesse]

Off the.

[Richard Dolan]

Off the main stream of physics.

[Calvin Parker]

Totally.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, they really were. So there's a lot. I love hearing you talk about this. Back to Kecksburg. I guess I'll just say there's something very bizarre came down there. And I don't think it was a Soviet satellite. I do not believe that. I do not believe that at all. You know, there's Stan Gordon who's still around. I love Stan, he's really dove into this, and I think he's got the goods on it. There was a local radio station guy, I think Frank Murphy was his name. He goes in there. It wrecked his life. It destroyed his life on many levels. Anyway, so Kecksburg. I don't know what that was. I think it was important. It wasn't just a satellite. And maybe it was something more. Maybe it was a craft. I have a. I don't know.

[Calvin Parker]

I have a weird one for you. Aztec.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh. Oh, I'm on the Aztec train. I believe that one, Aztec was, you know, was the first case that was written about.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

In 1950. And it was viciously. Viciously smeared and debunked a couple of years after that by a guy named Considine. I think that was the one.

[Calvin Parker]

JP Khan.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, JP Khan. Thank you. Thank you. I'm getting all of my people mixed up. It gets tough to be an older man.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, you know, a lot of stuff.

[Richard Dolan]

Manager. Yeah.

[Jesse]

JP Khan. And.

[Richard Dolan]

And. But this story was. There's. I have two very dear, wonderful people, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey, who've really done the work on this, but they revived and resuscitated this case. And what they showed was that Kahn's expose was utterly mendacious and just driven by resentment over not being allowed to do the story.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, he was gonna break it. Scully to begin with, and he lost it to Scully. And then it was kind of this pit. Pit. And then the other weirder thread is he was family friends with J. Edgar Hoover as well. Oh, Yeah, I heard J.P. kahn.

[Richard Dolan]

I did hear that.

[Calvin Parker]

And then you have these FBI files on Silas Newton and Gebauer going way back to the. I think, the 30s or something. And they're. They're totally redacted, like, so it's like, why would you have these crazy FBI.

[Richard Dolan]

This whole thing of smearing them as these shysters, you know, sleazy real estate investors. That's not. I don't think that's true at all.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

In fact, I'm just going to give a shout out to Richard Geldreich, who I love his research, and I talk with him and he. He's got stuff on this.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

He's gonna come out with more information.

[Calvin Parker]

Amazing. I would love to hear from him. Silas Newton was worth $20 million at the time, which, adjusted for inflation, it's like, that guy doesn't need to hustle people on a doodle bug oil thing. He was very successful.

[Richard Dolan]

No, absolutely not.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

So anyway, I think Aztec was real. I think that actually did happen. You know, unfortunately, with a lot of these crash retrievals. Roswell was the anomaly in the sense that. Because Roswell made the newspaper at the time, and so it was harder. Like, they buried it right away. But there were always researchers, like, oh.

[Jesse]

Remember that newspaper headline?

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Like, so it was always kind of there. And then it wasn't until the late 1970s that a few people, especially, like the great late Leonard Stringfield, he's. He.

[Jesse]

You asked in the beginning, like, who.

[Richard Dolan]

Are some of my heroes? Yeah, he's one.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

I never met the guy. Yeah, he was amazing. Amazing. But anyway, so Stringfield starts collecting and dredging up these. And he was one of the first people to interview and publish his interview with Jesse Marcel Senior. And. And by the time that happened, you're really looking 20, no, 30 years after Roswell. So those people were. A lot of them were still around, some were gone, and researchers kind of jumped in and they found many, many, many people. Like in the case with Aztec, it just didn't work out that way. Kingman, you mentioned that before. I just want to say that. That there's no question in my mind that Kingman was the real thing. Raymond Fowler, still alive in his 90s, I think, was involved in contacting the primary witness of that. And so I think there's some good information on Kingman. But the problem with all of those other cases is, compared to Roswell, we have like, a small fraction of the number of people to be able to talk to. And that makes it tough for them.

[Calvin Parker]

It shows you how managed this subject could have been in the Cold War secrecy era, too. Because with Roswell, nobody really knew about Roswell till 1979. 1978.

[Richard Dolan]

That's right. That's right.

[Calvin Parker]

Friedman helped popularize it. Jesse Marcel came out.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

But between 47 and that time, it was not in any of the UFO books.

[Richard Dolan]

Not only that. Yes. So the ufo, you know, this applies to us today in our community and in the early decades of the flying saucers. So it was really not an easy career move to like, you know, write and study flying saucers or UFOs. Bad career move for the most part. So everyone stayed away from it. And so the people who were in it were often, like, hyper conservative in a way. Like, it was very surprising. So, like, abductions, like, no way. They're not gonna get into abductions. That's like. That's crazy talk. You're talking crazy talk. Crash retrievals of UFOs. Keep that away. Yeah, they would. And they'd been Scared off of it by the JP Khan hit piece. Certainly despite the fact that. How is it illogical that with all of these flying discs the United States military might have gotten one? It's really not that illogical when you think about it. But it was absolutely off the limits. And when Stanton, Friedman and Stringfield and others started looking at these crash retrievals in the late 70s, they got a lot of pushback from established UFO researchers at that time. This was not an easy sell.

[Calvin Parker]

It's still not. I mean, if you Google. That's right, Aztec Crash, it goes. Aztec Crash hoax. That is the Wikipedia page of this thing. And yeah, you have Scott and Suzanne Ramsey.

[Jesse]

That's not.

[Richard Dolan]

UFO research is managing those pages. Of course, those are hardcore skeptical.

[Calvin Parker]

Hardcore skeptical organization. But then you give them first principles points as to why actually maybe something did happen at the time. And there's never anything to say back. It's. They always. It's been well established that it's a hoax. And it's like you're. That is just. You were literally just repeating some party line. You've done zero research.

[Richard Dolan]

No, I think Aztec, really, that was the real deal.

[Calvin Parker]

I agree. I've been there and I've been there with Scott and Suzanne. And you see the trees have been. Where the UFO was dragged out. You see that the trees have been bent over in this awkward shape. You have FBI files of the two guys who reported on it through Scully or whatever going back to the 30s. So they were clearly kind of tracking these guys, which is really strange. What they were thrown. Newton was thrown in jail over this. So, yeah, I think there's a lot. And then Scully. People say with Scully. Oh, it was like written in this sort of flowery, artful way or whatever. But he was the guy a lot of celebrities would go to to give really kind of, you know, to tell stories where, you know, they didn't want everything out necessarily. They wanted told in a delicate way.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

But he was approached by this possibly consortium of scientists that were kind of, you know, consolidated into Dr. G or whatever.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

And it would make sense that he would have been approached. And you have all these people mysteriously dying around Scully. You have Carl Flock, you know, who's the. Probably a three letter agency guy.

[Jesse]

I knew Carl Flock.

[Calvin Parker]

So it's like you do a little digging.

[Richard Dolan]

Other thing about Scully.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

You read. Read that book. Read just like the introduction.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

If nothing else, 1950. This is a guy who really knew things really well. He was deeply skeptical.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Of the United States establishment in the military.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Which is an unusual thing for a journalist in 1950.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Scully was no one's fool. He knew things really well. I would recommend anyone find the book. Just read that. It reads about as fresh today as when he wrote it back.

[Calvin Parker]

I agree. And you have recording of Silas Newton speaking. That was the University of Denver or some Colorado or something. And so there's so much documentation from the time, but as soon as you say this is a hoax, people just kind of. Kind of look away and forget about it.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, because again, the whole thing about being in a fringe field like this, it's like the last thing you want to appear is gullible.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

It's like that's the kiss of death. Like, you don't look like you're stupid. I'm going to believe every single thing. And so there's this overcompensation that has always happened in this field.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Which is too bad, because let's face it, let's get down to the fundamental reality here. We are dealing with a phenomenon.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

That is beyond us. It is a reality shattering phenomenon. And it breaks everything. It breaks absolutely everything. And the reality is that we. It's not that we're being too crazy and too fringe. We're not being. We're not going out there enough.

[Calvin Parker]

I think that's right.

[Richard Dolan]

That's the thing. This is a very. It's a very powerful subject. In reality, what we, UFOs, UAP, whatever you want to call them. This. But even more than that, like UFOs or UAP, that doesn't really even touch.

[Calvin Parker]

That's right.

[Richard Dolan]

That's nothing.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

The. The truth is there is an other.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Intelligence, society, civilization, whatever they are, they're here. They are established. They have bases, they have a presence. They are global. Every, every day. The nationwide sightings of mysterious drone.

[Calvin Parker]

Weeks of mysterious drone sightings.

[Randy Anderson]

You're telling me we don't know what the hell these drones are in New Jersey are? Can you make sense of the Jersey drones? I know you covered these in various contexts. It's so confusing. You have, you know, Rogan and Sean Ryan being like, they're looking for loose nuclear material on the eastern seaboard. You have other people saying, you know, we found some Chinese nationals, like, around there. And then I think there's a lot of reason to believe there was possibly genuine anomalous aerial stuff going on.

[Jesse]

Yeah. Everyone's always like, I've solved it. I've solved it. Like, everyone's like, figured this thing out. But really the thing that strikes me about the mystery drone phenomenon was it's like every single other UFO wave you ever study. In other words, this thing happens. No one seems to be able to explain it. Everyone's got their own theory, thousands of theories are out there, and then it goes away and you have no resolution. No resolution. Well, you know, join the club. This is how this has been going on for many, many years. There's still a lot of unknown things about this that I'm personally, I would like to get more information about, and I don't know if we ever will. The reports of these things supposedly coming out of the water and harassing U.S. coast Guard vessels. That's one. It was apparently a swarm that supposedly came from the ocean, out of the ocean. Do we know? I don't know, but it swarmed a.

[Randy Anderson]

Coast Guard vessel and you have Trump saying it came from a garage. And you know, these are, it's very strange place. Biden knows where they're coming from.

[Richard Dolan]

Our military knows where they took off from.

[Calvin Parker]

If it's a garage, they can go.

[Richard Dolan]

Right into that garage.

[Calvin Parker]

They know where it came from and where it went.

[Richard Dolan]

I can't imagine it's the enemy because it was the enemy that blasted out.

[Calvin Parker]

Even if they were late, they'd blast it. Something strange is going on.

[Richard Dolan]

For some reason, they don't want to tell the people and they should.

[Randy Anderson]

With Trump, it's always hard to know because he speaks in such a overly simplistic, sing songy way where it's like, dude, I don't know what you, you're saying, but you know, it's entertaining, but, you know, it is entertaining, but that there's sorts that seem to imply something kind of anomalous.

[Calvin Parker]

Right?

[Jesse]

Yeah. I don't really know if Donald Trump actually knew what these were. I mean, maybe I, presumably after he became president, he might have figured out. And by the way, notice, you know, that the Trump and Biden teams, they hate each other and yet when they talk about this phenomenon, they sound exactly the same.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah, that's right. It's the only, no difference. The only thing that gets like AOC and Matt Gaetz to agree and then simultaneously like the power structures that are clamping down to agree.

[Jesse]

So I don't know. I don't know if we have an answer to that. And I don't have an answer to it. I was very unpersuaded by the argument that they were looking for nuclear material. I didn't find that believable at all. Because first of all, you had these mystery drones over ramstein Air Base. In Europe you had them over Lake and Heath and in the UK and there are a lot of more reports of them having sightings in California. One of the problems with this is it's really hard to know are we looking at the same phenomenon? When you look at all the massive UFO or UAP reports, it's really hard to know, like, are all of these legit? So how do you, how do you actually see the patterns here? Is, is the European aspect of this related to the New Jersey tri state area aspect of it and is that related to the California? I don't know because it's. Who is doing the actual sure shot research and nailing these cases down, getting field investigators out there confirming. We have a lot of stories, a lot of people throwing videos out there. And I was in as much confusion as anybody else on that.

[Randy Anderson]

Where do you think disclosure is going? Because, you know, you've been in this field for decades. I'm sure when you get into the field to begin with, you start to gather data and you start to probably think, like, why is no one earnestly, like, why, why isn't the mainstream media taking this seriously? And then you, you probably think, oh, disclosures maybe right around the bend or something. And so now I hear maybe a slightly more pessimistic Richard Dolan or where are you?

[Jesse]

Well, yeah, sorry, like I said, I have wonderful, brilliant friends who say, Richard, you know, look on the bright side a little more. And I do, I do, I do. Once a week I actually will look on the bright side of things. So one out of seven days and I'm there. No, seriously, you mentioned our media. So one thing that I have definitely concluded a long time ago, like we, you know, we like to think of our media, media's supposed to be the watchdog, they're the press, they inform us. And you know, we all kind of know a little bit better now. But really when you look at the media, it's part of a system that must maintain itself. You have a system that is, we have a very complex society with a lot of interlocking parts that really do kind of need each other to make them go. Not just to keep the lights on, but you need that and you need all the logistical systems in place and you need all the financial systems to be working properly. And that's how we live, that's how we eat our food and that's how we make our money. And disclosure to a lot of those interests is a threat. It is a threat. It may not be a threat to you or to me, in the immediate sense. But think about someone who's sunk trillions of dollars into a military infrastructure or an energy infrastructure or a transportation infrastructure. Disclosure could upset a lot of that. It could make some of those investments maybe worthless or at least lose a lot of money. We don't really think about this enough. And so it's a danger to that established society. Some people may say, well, the hell with it. I don't really care. Okay, well, I get that. But those guys who own it do care. And they're going to fight every step of the way to protect their financial interests and also their everything else, the political stuff. And the media is part of that system. Media is part of that system. It always has been. You know, earlier today, I was doing a lecture, and I quoted late Catherine Graham, who was the owner of the New York Washington Post for many years, and she famously said, you know, look, we've. This is in the 80s, late 80s. She's like, yeah, we work with the intelligence community all the time to manage. To manage information. And it was known. It was not even apologized for. So that's our media. And that's not even for me to criticize the media. That's just for us to, like, see it for what it is. So I don't think we're going to really see a media. I mean, it's just think about since 2017. So you have Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helene Cooper. They write the really breakthrough article for the New York Times, two of them. And we were all like, is this disclosure? This was kind of an amazing thing. I was blown away by it. I was really caught off guard. It was amazing. What happened in the aftermath, really? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing at all. No deep journalists, like, investigations by journalists of the mainstream. You had this very moderate, measured, controlled, often skeptical response to that, where months and months and months would pass before another article would come out. Sometimes it'd be like a skeptical editorial in the New York Times and things like this. That's the nature of their investigation. So they clearly were not interested in following up. There were no primetime news specials on this, like, none of that stuff. So you have to wonder this. We've always said, even the skeptics would say, well, this would be the biggest story of all time. Okay, so now we've got a glimmer of it. Where are you guys? And I think we know that's not an actual area that they want to open up because it's too dangerous. So back to disclosure. I don't believe that we are going to ever see an honest voluntary disclosure from the US Government. It's not going to be voluntary. It could be if their backs are pressed to the wall by, let's say, powerful revelations that become too unrealistic to deny. Let's say a senior level recent or active US government official, maybe, maybe a Pentagon person. Matt Kovitz would be an interesting one. But he's now he's gone.

[Randy Anderson]

Yep.

[Jesse]

So. But something along that level maybe. But those, those people are tough to get.

[Randy Anderson]

They're very, they're very tough to get. Yeah, I'm with you in the frustration. I met with one of the lead op ed people at the Wall Street Journal maybe a year ago and I was trying to convince her that she should write about this topic and that this was a very worthwhile, important topic. I was telling her about the nuclear connection. She did express some interest and I think she was earnest. I don't think she was like dogmatically opposed to the subject. And it's funny, she said, oh, we have a consultant for this stuff. This guy's name is David Spergel. And this guy did the NASA UAP panel. And 2023 is probably associated with the whole secrecy. And then he said, he said to her, apparently, you know, he told us that it, you know, it was all light reflections and temperature inversions. And I was like, oh my God, like Don Menzel was saying the same thing in the 50s and it was probably working on the same mainstream media proponents back then and where it's like literally snapshot to today.

[Jesse]

So yeah, think about it. So the Washington Post one, one of the establishment publications has a deep system, deep state scientist, you could say, who's managing this topic for. So she has to defer to him.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Jesse]

Basically. Is what you, what it sounds like.

[Randy Anderson]

Yes.

[Jesse]

Yeah, so that's, that's how the whole thing's managed.

[Randy Anderson]

You got your talking points after, after having researched this topic for as long as you have. Richard, is there a science fiction book or movie that most accords with your worldview?

[Jesse]

I'm looking at my wife. Well, there's a few, a few movies and shows that I think are really neat. Hey, you know, I co authored a book with Bryce Zabel, we did after disclosure about 15 years ago. And he of course co produced the TV show Dark Skies, which was a really great show. They did one long season in the late 90s. It's tough to compete with the X Files, but they did a good job of the kind of inside machinations of an MJ12 group. I actually really like what they did there. That's almost 30 years ago. Steven Spielberg, 20 years ago, did Taken, which I think was a very, very good work on that. I'll just put this out now because I'm a fan of him. And I talked to this man. There's an author named Lou Baldin, who. I love Lou's work and it's crazy to read him because he is a self described contactee and I don't usually hang out or work with contactees. That's really not my thing. But Lou's work fascinates me. Absolutely. And I have no problem saying this. So he, in the 90s, mid-90s, he writes a book called In League with the UFO. It's a weird title. What does that mean? And then he subtitled it the Roswell Incidents. Like this book has nothing to do with Roswell, but he was trying to like market it. 1997, it gets published. Roswell was the 50th anniversary, so fair enough. But you read this book, it's insane. He says, well, I, I got the material for writing this book from a gentleman who gave me some papers, totally cagey about like this. And he writes an insider's story of how the committee studied the flying saucer that came into their possession after Roswell. The scientists, all the crazy stuff about the alien ship, how surreal it was, all the crazy conscious genius level alien gadgets, as he calls them, that baffled these scientists, the political arguments. And I'm thinking, this is fiction. This is the best damn fiction in UFOs anywhere. And it would be. And is it true? And well, to this day, people discuss it. I've, I've communicated with Lou, I've talked with him and he's, he's still around and I, I really like him and I, I think I believe him. I think I believe this man. Somehow he gets this information. He's, he can talk about. I'm, I'm going to try to interview him one day. You should too. He's, he's worth it. And then 10 years later, he writes this even crazier book. It's insane. It's called A Day with an Extraterrestrial who has a Name. Extraterrestrial's name is Milton. Whoa, that's a good name. So Lou writes it and he's like, yeah, I'm doing my daily walk in the park where I live and this crazy guy accosts me and says, hey, remember me? He's like, I don't know you at all. Yeah, yeah, you know Me.

[Calvin Parker]

Me.

[Jesse]

Very well. I don't think I know you at all. Get the hell away from me. Next thing you know, he's been paralyzed. He's floated, levitated into a ship. No one sees it. And he goes for an entire day on this crazy Alice in Wonderland adventure. This is Alice in Wonderland for ufology. This book, A Day with an Extraterrestrial. If Lewis Carroll were to write about UFOs, this is the book he would write. People do not realize just how wild it is. Is it true? I don't know. It's a great read, and I find myself returning to it over and over again. You're welcome.

[Randy Anderson]

Yeah, that's what I've never heard, a better plug. It's. I want to pivot a little bit. You've been on this interesting kick around China and UFOs. To many of us. I think China is somewhat of a black box when it comes to this, this topic. You know, people talk about the three body problems, this famous science fiction trilogy, or I guess that's the first book of the trilogy. And there are a couple of journals from China that people are aware of. But you've done kind of a deeper dive.

[Jesse]

I did, yeah. I did actually this for the members of my website, so I like to do special projects for that. We got richardolanmembers.com, great people there, and I'm always working on those projects as well as what I do on YouTube and in my books. So I thought, you know, I've always been interested in understanding the all international dimensions of this phenomenon, and that includes international research. And China was as much a black box to me as you're just saying now. And I thought, I don't really. What. What can I learn? I mean, I want to do the same dive on Russian ufology as well, but I started with a better knowledge of that. And with Chinese ufology, I felt like I knew next to nothing. And I thought, why? Why is that? Why do I know so little about what the Chinese UFO history is? Well, yeah, I just discovered it's really quite fascinating. So there's still a lot that I don't know. But what I can definitely say to you, it, you know, everything revolves around the death of mao Zedong in 1976. So there's pre Mao, and up to that point, you could not, absolutely not, no way ever research UFOs in that country. It was absolutely no way. The whole subject was off limits because, I mean, it seems to me it was a challenge to the authority of the Communist Party. And a challenge to the fact that the party was in control of everything. And so what are these things flying around? They American, they extraterrestrial, whatever it is, we don't like to acknowledge it. And they did not. Mao then dies. And of course, with many aspects of Chinese society, certain floodgates did open up. One of them was a massive, absolutely massive, almost national interest in UFOs. To this day, I think this is a very, very popular topic in China, but it's managed very differently now than it was in the 70s. So when Mao first died, you had Chinese researchers, a number of different ones. You had a kind of very scientific, materialist, you can almost say Marxist version of understanding this subject. But what you find is that culturally among the grassroots Chinese people, they are into like contact cases big time, into like metaphysical aspects of this subject in ways that you wouldn't think for a communist country where spiritual beliefs are not particularly encouraged or even tolerated at times, but yet this became a huge thing. So all through the 80s, you get the development of, on the one hand, very like, solid like MUFON type, you know, Chinese research where they're, they're researching sometimes military encounters and publishing some of these. So I was able to find some of these. There was a Chinese researcher by the name of Paul Dong who wrote a really great book in the early, early 1980s on this. And I think you can find a PDF of that. It's out there, but anyway, and there's a few other, like random Chinese journals that you can get some of the information here in the West. But basically, long story short, through the 80s and 1990s, China had an organization known as the Falun Gong. Many of you know of this that grew so massively. So the Falun Gong was essentially doing kind of like a version of Tai Chi movement with a very like, almost like yoga, but Tai Chi, it's, you know, you could probably do it outside on your mat and that's what they would do. But it was such a massive national movement. Millions and millions and more millions. And the Falun Gong had very explicit UFO extraterrestrial related beliefs. That's what made them a little different. And this movement became so big, the Chinese government really became afraid of it. This is, you know, you had Tiananmen Square, remember that 1989, where all of the openness that had been happening through the 80s became kind of grew and grew and morphed into a public demonstration wanting, you know, open and complete freedom of expression. And that was very, very severely crushed. So all through the 90s in the aftermath. The Falun Gong goes on their rise and they were ruthlessly shut down in the late 90s in almost the exact same way the Chinese Communist Party decided this is way too much of a threat, we absolutely cannot allow this and we must crush this. And they did crush it. Absolutely, completely, completely. The whole thing that my biggest takeaway from all of that was that we talk about disclosure here in the United States. Disclosure in China is, I really am sure, would be perceived as such a major threat to the government, vastly more, vastly more than any anyone in Washington D.C. would perceive to the United States structure of power. So it had to be suppressed in China. And Chinese ufology to this day is basically had its, has its teeth taken out. I mean it's very, very tame, it's very managed, it's very controlled. And, and it's also one thing that you would have to add is the, the People's Liberation army, the Chinese Army, Chinese military, they are very sophisticated in tracking UFO reports. Very, very sophisticated. They are integrated, I think in all of like the Chinese research, civilian organizations, they're collecting everything and they have a multi tier system by which they organize these reports. So they collect, then they bring them to like a central clearinghouse where they study and analyze them and then they bring them to a final repository where they keep these. We don't get any of that information. I don't think any of that really comes out. But they've, they're very, very sophisticated. They have got, they are on top of managing their UFO data. And that's really one reason I think, why we, we don't really get anything out of it. I tried, you know, looking, you know, we can do Google Translate, you can translate website pages, but you cannot get to the Chinese cases. It's. I don't think it's means maybe some people can, but I can't.

[Randy Anderson]

It's so fascinating and it does beg the question of, you know, why is the this Dark Forest trilogy, the Three Body Problem allowed? You know, they can clamp down on whatever literature they want and it doesn't exactly paint the Cultural Revolution in the most, you know, the rosiest of ways. It's sort of.

[Jesse]

Well, yeah, I want to respond to that because I think what we're seeing is nothing is black and white anymore. We're in a world and China is part of this too, where things are in change. We're in the midst of an AI revolution, we're in the midst of all of the kinds of tech revolutions going on and a global communications revolution. Has been occurring. It continues to happen. So just because a government, whether it's the US Government, the Chinese government, the Russian, just because they say we don't want to recognize this doesn't mean that they're able to prevent it. They can't really prevent it 100%. I think what we're seeing is a series of adjustments being made by all of the government, governments in. In all these ways. I think you see them fighting defense, as it were. That. That's certainly the US as well. People will say, you know, this guy says he's taken all these NDAs and all of this, and yet he's talking about crash retrievals, isn't he? Breaking classified security regulations? And, and what I. What I suspect, I mean, I don't know, but I think what happens is you've got factions all over the place. You got factions in the U.S. pentagon, probably multiple fact, not just two, probably many. And some people have supporters who are enabling them to say certain things. Other people in that same structure will probably be dead set against it, but they didn't win that battle. And so certain things get out. And I guarantee it's probably very similar with China. They have to play the game. They can't just slam down all the time and say, this is how it is forever. We're in a world that is in flux.

[Richard Dolan]

We just have to recognize there are other sides of this. And I'm not advocating for one thing or another. I'm just saying it's a little complicated. But when you have a system that is designed to support us, like media, the media is part of this system. So it's been captured, we all know, long ago it's been captured like there. You know, you had some watchdog journalists that maybe some of them are still out there. You're one. But in terms of establishment journalists.

[Jesse]

Everything'S.

[Richard Dolan]

Captured by the system because it must protect itself. The system must protect itself. So, you know, when you get these, the skeptics out there, they fit right in perfectly. They serve the system as well.

[Calvin Parker]

It's funny, you have people like Vannevar Bush talked about in UFO lore kind of all the time. You know, Robert Sarbacher said he was, you know, part. Part of the program initially. It would make sense if we had a UFO program. It would be adjacent to our atomic program. He was head of, you know, the Office of Strategic Research and Development at the highest level for FDR and Truman.

[Richard Dolan]

Yep.

[Calvin Parker]

And he wrote a paper called the Endless Frontier. And I almost think if you read that, that that paper that Essay through the lens of UFO technology. Maybe it's like, oh, the frontier is actually super endless and this thing needs to be, you know, how this tech gets developed needs to be managed by, you know, these central groups. Like.

[Richard Dolan]

And they are convinced, like they're the.

[Jesse]

Guys to do it.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

They're smarter than we are. They know better.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

We can argue whether they do or don't, but that's their position. And so they're not, they're not ever going to like, voluntarily just say, oh, yeah, here you go. Yeah, it's not going to happen.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah. I have a weird crash for you. I don't know if you're familiar with this one, but South Haven, Long island in the 90s.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes, yes.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

By Brookhaven National Lab.

[Calvin Parker]

That's right, by Brookhaven National Labs.

[Richard Dolan]

There's a man named John Ford who I'm sure you know this. Maybe, maybe some listeners do too. Yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that's, that's a real possible one.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, there's a Long Island UFO group. He headed it and they actually there, there may be more than one of those that may have happened on Long Island. I grew up on Long Island.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

Backyard there. I didn't know about it at the time. Yeah, that was kind of.

[Calvin Parker]

You think there are more than one?

[Richard Dolan]

Well, I think they believed there were more than one.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, that's fascinating. Thought so because that was the first particle accelerator in the US which is the Cosmotron at Brookhaven National Labs. And you hear, you know, definitely UFOs are definitely attracted to nuclear. And then I wonder if you could generalize that to tip the spear science and to high energy physics and particle accelerators to think. Yes, I think so.

[Richard Dolan]

The Long island crash, I think was supposed to be 1989 by Mauritius Bay.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

I think that's when the year. And yeah, I believe I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I do know, like, there was a lot of. There were eyewitnesses who talked about massive security.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Presence around that area at that time. And John Ford looked into it. You know, he was, they really destroyed his life. So John Ford. I used to, I used to be on sometimes some good terms with the late Elaine Douglas, who was a very close friend of John Ford. Elaine Douglas in her own right was a really cool lady, tough, smart, someone, you know, screw around with. She could get angry.

[Jesse]

Like, I remember that.

[Richard Dolan]

But toward the end of her life, she and I were, were much closer. But anyway, she knew John Ford very well and I know she was a Strong believer in this reality of the Long island crash. But Ford was. It really does look to me that he was totally set up with this kind of wacky plot to kill a member of one of the. I think the Nassau county, or is it the Suffolk County City Council? Whatever. Whatever governing body by poisoning his toothpaste with radioactive material.

[Calvin Parker]

Jesus.

[Richard Dolan]

Like, are you kidding me, man? So he gets accused of this and he's. I don't even know if he's alive anymore.

[Calvin Parker]

Oh, my God.

[Richard Dolan]

He was incarcerated for decades.

[Calvin Parker]

Oh, that's nuts.

[Richard Dolan]

He might still be alive.

[Calvin Parker]

That is so.

[Richard Dolan]

It's. It just seemed. I haven't really dived super deep into this, but it really looked like they just went after him. And that's. Now, was he. Was he just that unstable and he was, like, getting kind of crazy and. I don't know, but I don't. I don't think so. It seems really wrong what they did to him.

[Calvin Parker]

So wrong. You hear of these historical, you know, Galileo type case people who seek truth, and then they get persecuted by the establishment. And then you hear stories like that, modern stories and ufologies.

[Richard Dolan]

We like to think, oh, we're so much better now. Like, we're not any different.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

The problem with our country, our world, is that we like to tell ourselves we're living a democracy. And we like to tell ourselves, oh, yeah, we've got natural rights and government rights. And so the problem then becomes, for those people who've always controlled things, it's like, all right, how do we deal with this? Let's do some good public propaganda. Create public relations, you know, Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who creates that whole industry for massive public manipulation. So that's okay. Check. And then all these other things to get around the formal restrictions on their untrammeled pursuit of power. And so it's just a game, you know, it's like, all right, we have this pretend democracy. That's really what it is. And both parts are true. Like, we have certain democratic. You know that one friend who somehow knows everything about money. Yeah. Now imagine they live in your phone. Say hey to Experian, your big financial friend. It's the app that helps you check your FICO score, find ways to save, and basically feel like a financial genius. And guess what? It's totally free. So go on, download the Experian app. Trust me, having a BFF like this, this is a total game changer. Elements to our world, okay? But ultimately, we all kind of see it's very tightly guided and manipulated and in a naturally hierarchical social organization, and ours is. It always has been, anytime you have concentrations of wealth that are going to be unequal, and since we. For 12,000 years, since we both started collecting ourselves into societies, that's always been the case. You're going to have hierarchy. Sorry, but it's inevitable. And those people with the money are going to control things, and so they never give up. And they're just. It's like, how do we work our way through this system now? How do we manipulate the system to keep it going? All right, Let the people think they've got freedom. Good for them.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

That's what they do.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah. It's like the.

[Richard Dolan]

And we're surprised when we see that there are these injustices happening today. It's like. That shouldn't be.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes. Yeah. It's a. It's a weird. You know, it's like the left is always talking about, you know, government overreach, and then the right's talking about, you know, corporate overreach and.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, it used to be the opposite.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, it used to be the opposite.

[Richard Dolan]

Which the left used to talk about the government overreach and.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, no.

[Jesse]

With the.

[Richard Dolan]

The corporate overreach.

[Jesse]

And the right used to talk about government.

[Calvin Parker]

Government overreach, exactly.

[Richard Dolan]

And, like, switched around.

[Calvin Parker]

They have. And then. And now it's just a sort of seesaw where, you know, the only constant is the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. But it's a sort of hypnotic, like, you know, rearranging the deck chairs and the Titanic or something.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

But I was thinking about our conversation yesterday. We talked about, you know, this amazing history of unidentified submersible objects. You have this incredible chronology. One case that you've covered before, that which I think connects to usos is the Pascagoula case, where you have these two fishermen who are abducted. I didn't realize this until recently. Pascagoula was right next to the largest production of nuclear submarines at the time.

[Richard Dolan]

In the U.S. that's right. I don't know if it still is, but that's right. And actually. Well, that's a good case. And in the second volume of my study, which will cover the 1970s and 80s, so there's a. You know, maybe I'll make more of a reference. I might throw a little bit more about Pascagoula in there. It's not, in my opinion, technically USO case necessarily, but a week or two later, there was a genuine USO incident right there.

[Calvin Parker]

Oh, wow.

[Richard Dolan]

Right there. And that is, in my book. And it's a good, it's a really good case. It's really, really good. So. But I do make a reference to Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker. They were the witnesses for that. They were the abductees for that. And yeah, so basically what you had with that, they are seeing, they're fishing. I think Hickson at the time was in his 40s. Cal Parker was like 19 years old. And they're doing a fishing thing early in the morning and they see this dome shaped kind of craft, like a, almost like a cone, maybe a cone shaped crab, I guess. And it's hovering above the water. It's off the coast of Mississippi. And they are, they're abducted. And for the longest time it was only Charles Hickson who was supposedly abducted. But Calvin Parker, years later I think indicated that he was too. The thing about that is a couple of things. So the being that they described is very bizarre looking. It's got like a carrot ears and like it's a weird looking, weird looking creature. Very bizarre. Look, you. I wouldn't think of an alien looking. It looks like, it looks like a 1950s version of an alien like in one of those bad movies. Which is the one thing about it. Like you just don't want. You look at that and you cringe.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, guys, like, is this what you saw? Yeah, well, look, it's what they said they saw. But what's interesting about it is they were. They reported this to the police, local police, which many people know. And the guy, the deputy sheriff on duty is like, he's kind of suspicious of them. So he leaves a recorder in the room where they're alone. They don't know this. They don't know they're being recorded. And they're just talking very honestly with each other. Like in Cal Parker's freaking out. They're like, holy crap, how do we do this? How do we process this is. And so they totally convinced the law enforcement there that they were honest and sincere.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

So it. And you know, and, and for many years, Cal Parker just kind of disappeared for a while. He reappeared toward the end of his life. But Charles Hickson did lots of interviews. And like, you know, I've watched the guy. I've listened and read his interview transcripts. He's. I think he was telling the truth, you know.

[Calvin Parker]

It's fascinating.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

Do you ever. Does naval surface worker Crane ever come up for you? Are you familiar with that facility?

[Richard Dolan]

Not related to the glomar bit, is it?

[Calvin Parker]

Or I don't know if I well, you actually reported on that. You did. As part of Richard Dolan Intelligent disclosure. Like and subscribe.

[Richard Dolan]

Maybe I use different terminology. You.

[Calvin Parker]

You talked about why I think this guy, Randy Anderson, who I interviewed.

[Jesse]

Right.

[Calvin Parker]

Who went deep into an underground military base, which you've. You've covered.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes. No, he's. He's fascinating guy.

[Calvin Parker]

He is fascinating. And, you know, that was not really on a lot of people's radars. That complex at the time. I think it's still. There's very little.

[Richard Dolan]

You talking about the thing down near Puerto Rico in the.

[Calvin Parker]

No, Caribbean.

[Jesse]

I'm getting things up there.

[Calvin Parker]

2014, 2015 was taken down underground to this and then taken to a skiff that said off planet technologies.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, I never took notes on. I don't think so. I should probably revisit this.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, yeah, I don't know. Well, it's a complex. It's a complex. That's very interesting. I have, you know, a couple of Navy friends and they say some spooky stuff goes on there.

[Richard Dolan]

So I'm going to data mine you about this when we're done talking. So.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll do it.

[Richard Dolan]

Okay.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, Richard, this has been an absolute honor. Yeah. I can't thank you enough for your time and. Yeah, I mean, you're just an absolute wealth of knowledge.

[Richard Dolan]

I love talking to you, man. You are. You're very easy to do this with. And you're a wealth of knowledge in your own right. Like your knowledge of 1940s, like World War II era stuff. Very, very impressive. Well, I really enjoy hearing you standing.

[Calvin Parker]

On the shoulders of giants.

[Richard Dolan]

And that's what we all do. Yeah, yeah, we said that before we started or. But it's true. Like, that's all we ever do. We stand on. You asked me who some of my inspirations are. I'll tell you right now. So when I started with before, before I got into UFOs, I was into a couple of academic guys that I really love. Max Weber, great sociologist from a century ago, was very, very important to me. Still is. His ideas still resonate with me. His whole idea of rationalization of the world. I think about this a lot.

[Calvin Parker]

Age of disenchantment.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, that whole thing. I was 21 years old when I first read Weber and I read him talking about disenchantment of the world, and that's what that hooked me. So it's kind of cool that you mentioned that, you know, a lot of other kind of important thinkers of the past, I guess. But within. Within UFOs. I'm. I'm like an admirer of a lot of all the OGs. You know, Donald Kehoe was probably number one in that.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

I went through all of his books very carefully.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

James and Cora Lorenzen of apro. Very huge admirer of them. And Edward Ruppelt, his whole story has just been interesting.

[Calvin Parker]

Oh, yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Very early death of a heart attack at age 37.

[Calvin Parker]

Are you conspiratorial about that or his death?

[Richard Dolan]

Rupelt, possibly.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

Some people are like, no, no, he died. He had. He did have a previous heart attack before that.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

But the thing about Rupelt, that's weird. He absolutely was pressured to basically debunk his own book.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

And there's no question about this. So you read 1956. He does the report on unidentified flying object, which was flew in the face, in many ways, of the official Air Force position. He ran Project Blue Book. He was in a position to talk about this. And he's making it clear throughout the book. It's like, yeah, we were baffled by this. This scared the hell out of us. This was amazing. That blew my mind, like, again and again and again. Very uncomfortable. So what ends up happening? Kehoe is the guy who writes all about this. He brings this out because he was in touch with Rupelt, and Ruppelt was on board with all of the kind of pro UFO public statements right up until around, I think, the middle of early 1958. So for 56 and 57, he was gung ho. Starts to become a little cold in 58, and Kehoe's noticing what's up with Ruppelt and other people. Like, what's up with Rupelt? Well, he was working at Northrop at the time, and he was under pressure, and he ends up, in 1960, publishes his second, his revised version of his book, which all he ended up doing was he tacked on three chapters at the end of it. And the chapters are, I mean, written in a completely different manner. They're very like. The original book is very like. It's measured, it's mature. The three chapters tacked on is, like, sophomoric and goofy. And yes, he's. He's. He's smearing people, including Kehoe, and he's. It's just like, very unlike the writing.

[Calvin Parker]

That preceded it, as if he was coerced or pressured.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes, that's right. He publishes that and he trashes UFOs at the end. Calls it, I think, the space age. Religion or myth. Myth of the Space Age. And then he dies, 37 years old.

[Calvin Parker]

It's crazy. Well, there are other cases like that. You have, you know, Philip J. Corso, you know, he had 24 hours to edit the day after Roswell written co.

[Richard Dolan]

Written by William Burns.

[Calvin Parker]

Jay Burns. And he had written another thing, you know, dawn of a new age or whatever. And so you have this like managed version and this more pure version. And we talked about Aztec earlier. William Steinman, he was a Scottish employee.

[Richard Dolan]

I spoke with him at one point.

[Calvin Parker]

He was, he was an employee at. Yeah. And they were. He was pushed out because of his UFO research and could never get a job in aerospace after writing that book, which I would love to vindicate. I think that is a great UFO research book.

[Richard Dolan]

Yes, it is.

[Calvin Parker]

It is because Wikipedia says that the, you know, Aztec thing is a hoax.

[Randy Anderson]

You know, he.

[Calvin Parker]

You throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah. Before the Ramses rehabilitated, Steinman did a. Wrote a really big fat book on it.

[Calvin Parker]

An amazing book that covers all sorts of interesting stuff around mj12 and he sure did. Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah. So, yeah. I talked with Simon one time and I really, really, I liked him. A lot of stories, like all kinds of really crazy stories that come out. Other people I've admired and continue to admire. One of them still alive. Her name is Linda Molteno. Oh yeah, Linda. Linda is a one off. There's no one else like her. She is one of a kind and she's brave. She puts herself out there all the time. She's investigated. I just admire her. And by the way, if you ever get to hang out with her, just let the lady talk because she has got the, like more amazing personal stories. Because the thing about Linda is all the older guys always like Linda, like all the military guys. Well, she's brilliant. No BS about her. But they, they feel that they can talk to her and she listens and she's. And she's brave. And so she's collected all of these amazing encounters. Like some of them are just kind of crazy. And I, I just like, I sit and I just listen. Just listen. I've been really lucky that I can get to, to do that with her. She's one of a kind. Amazing, amazing resource, a gem of a human being in our field. I don't know a lot of other people. I've really, truly admired. Tim Good is one. I got to know Tim a bit.

[Jesse]

And.

[Richard Dolan]

He'S not well these days and I wish him the best.

[Calvin Parker]

He must be a little over 80 at this point.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, about that. Yeah. And he's absolutely, he's just retired. But. But Tim was a real gentleman and a really. A gentle gentleman and a smart guy. This is a field of UFOs. Like, I. I look back and I think, what, what an amazing little ride I got to have. Just, just because I. I thought I got the bug and I thought I would write a book and I get to meet these people. Stanton Friedman was another one. Although Stanton. I'm just going to say this. I always liked him, always respected him.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

Stanton was a little bit of a gatekeeper with me when I first broke into this field.

[Calvin Parker]

Really?

[Richard Dolan]

I will say that, yes.

[Calvin Parker]

You know, he didn't sort of just give you.

[Richard Dolan]

It was all about Bob Lazar because.

[Calvin Parker]

You expressed genuine interest in those Wells.

[Richard Dolan]

Well, in 2001.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

So I still had nice black hair, big round glasses. I had all that going on. So I did my first, my, my first public appearance was actually in Laughlin, Nevada in March of 01. And my second one was right after 9 11.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

And it was in St. Louis and Stanton was there. We had like, Honestly, probably like 15 people in attendance at this whole thing. Like, I flew out there. Stan was there, a couple of other folks.

[Calvin Parker]

How old were you at the time?

[Richard Dolan]

39, I think.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

I just turned 39.

[Calvin Parker]

Okay.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah. So. And you know, we didn't. There's no social media, so things were slower. You know, I had two appearances in a year. I was like, wow, that's great.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

So anyway, I'm there and Stant, like, I'm sitting alone with him and he's checking me out. He's like, who is this guy? Because I just written a book, big fat book. And he's like, so what's your opinion on Bob Lazarus? And the fact was, I didn't really have one. I mean, I didn't know enough. I had spent the last five years just trying to figure out from 1941 to 1973. It was like, are you kidding me, man? I didn't really know yet. And I was. And by the way, I was scared out of my mind entering the UFO field back then because I knew, I wrote this, like, it was a good book on the early part of the. The COVID up. But like, I. When I published that book, I knew nothing about the 1980s and 1990s. I knew I didn't have time. I didn't have time. So I was afraid, like, people are going to ask me all these questions and I don't know what I'm going to say. And Bob Lazar was One of them, I was aware this was a big thing, but I hadn't really spent enough time to know, and so, and I resented those Stan, like, I knew where he was coming from. He wanted me to come down against Lazar. And I was like, you know, don't I, I think I said, like, I'll decide this in my own time.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, that's right.

[Richard Dolan]

And I let him know, like, you can't, don't bully me, man. Yeah, I'm not going to take to it. We, we always had a fine and cordial relationship. I wasn't really close with Stan like other people were, but, you know, I, I, I think he learned to respect me over time. It took him a little while.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

One, one thing was he realized, like, because everyone's attacking him over MJ12, and he realized, oh, Dolan's kind of like, okay with MJ12. So he suspected I was kind of an ally there. The other thing I'm just gonna say about Stan, though, and this is a bit of a problem, the fact that he was so hardcore against Lazar, to me, signified a larger problem, which is that, look, you're gonna research Roswell. Good. Great, in fact. And it's really good that you did that. But why in God's name would you think the story stops there?

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, of course.

[Richard Dolan]

All right, so you have the craft. It's obviously going to be studied.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Richard Dolan]

Under great secrecy. That's a given. So let's look for some stories here. And he just always seemed to, like, shoot them down.

[Calvin Parker]

Well, it's kind of intellectually disingenuous to say simultaneously, I believe they see covert reverse engineering programs and then also say the one guy with probably the most coherent story around, having worked on a craft, is a hundred percent wrong. You have to think probabilistically. And so I.

[Richard Dolan]

Right.

[Calvin Parker]

Give it, give it some probability above zero, if you think the first thing.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, yeah. And he fixated, like, on the education.

[Calvin Parker]

On the education, because he was educated at mit and it was personal, I think. I think he was like, what did I do to get my degree at mit?

[Jesse]

I think that's exactly.

[Calvin Parker]

It was a little ego.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I think so. And he kept using the word fraud over and over again. And I'm just like, this is not helpful.

[Calvin Parker]

Right. And there is something that happens with UFO research too, where by that time, I think, Friedman, he had gotten in with, I don't know, probably a lot of, you know, interesting characters in government.

[Richard Dolan]

But he was very good friends with Bill Moore, William Moore.

[Calvin Parker]

He's good friends with Bill Moore, who admitted at MUFON in the late 80s that he, you know, helped with the mess up. Paul Benowitz.

[Richard Dolan]

More, more not going to defend or attack him. But Moore always said, and, and Greg Bishop wrote about this in a really good book called Project Beta.

[Calvin Parker]

That's amazing.

[Richard Dolan]

Moore said, I allowed my, I've allowed myself to get involved with those people because I believed I had the ability to separate the shit from the candy, as he put it. So he, he thought, at least this is his, his explanation, that he, he was going to deal with these people because he wanted to get to the Holy Grail himself.

[Calvin Parker]

Right.

[Richard Dolan]

And Bill Moore was The, the hotshot UFO researcher of the 1980s.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

People so often forget. And it was Robert Hastings, by the way, who in my opinion is probably more than anyone else responsible for the takedown of Bill Moore. Because Hastings, if you go back through the old MUFON journals of the late 80s, I wasn't involved in the field, but, you know, you can read the journals Hastings was on. He was on what he knew that Moore had intelligence connections. He knew it and he sniffed it out. And I, and I personally think, I'm sure others know this better than I do, but I think that Moore, by July of 1989, was at the MUFON symposium there. The gig was up. Like he couldn't. There was no way he's going to keep this going anymore. So he just kind of came out. That's what I think.

[Calvin Parker]

That's fascinating.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Calvin Parker]

You also have, you have the guy Chase Brandon, who wrote Cryptos Conundrum. I think he was working on a script at one point with Stanton Friedman. And so you have these interesting.

[Richard Dolan]

Oh, yeah, with Stan. Right.

[Calvin Parker]

With these interesting sort of overlaps where in the beginning you start off super reverent and iconoclastic and then maybe you get soft.

[Richard Dolan]

We're all human beings or something. Yeah. Thanks for bringing me back to Stan.

[Jesse]

That was all.

[Richard Dolan]

I was going a little off there, but yeah, I mean, having said all of that. Look, I admire and always respected and liked Stanton Friedman. And his contribution to where we now are at is extremely important.

[Calvin Parker]

Yes.

[Jesse]

And.

[Richard Dolan]

But, you know, like I once read, Marilyn Monroe couldn't cook. You're gonna hold that against her, you know, she's Marilyn Monroe. Sure. Everyone's got their things where we're not, we're not 100% perfect.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah, of course.

[Richard Dolan]

And, and, and so, but yeah, Stan was someone that was important to me. And anyway, I'm kind of tailing off.

[Calvin Parker]

Here No, I love it. This I could talk to you for hours. Well, Richard, this has truly been an honor and hopefully we can do it again at some point. And thank you for doing everything. Go subscribe to Richard Dolan intelligent disclosure on YouTube. This is on Spotify and Apple, too.

[Richard Dolan]

I think so. You know, I'm not that good at.

[Calvin Parker]

Organizing wherever it is on social media, but I know it's on YouTube. Yeah, I check it out on YouTube. Buy his new book on USOS. Volume one is out. Two and three are coming. It's amazing. And buy all his other books, too. He's written some incredible, I don't know, UFOs in the national security state.

[Richard Dolan]

Yeah, they're all like little babies of mine. I love them all. And the thing I love most is probably writing the books.

[Calvin Parker]

Yeah.

[Richard Dolan]

I mean, YouTube is fun. Conferences, talking with people is fun, but I actually mostly enjoy just writing. Well, keep going, putting that out.

[Calvin Parker]

Keep doing what you do.

[Richard Dolan]

All right, Jesse.

[Calvin Parker]

Thank you, Richard.

[Richard Dolan]

It.