“The UFO Program Recruited Me From School!” [Exclusive Interview]

Summary

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American Alchemy with Jesse Michels

Episode: “The UFO Program Recruited Me From School!” [Exclusive Interview]

Release Date: June 16, 2026
Guest: Jordan Jozak

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Overview

In this remarkable and deeply personal interview, Jesse Michels hosts Jordan Jozak, a tech entrepreneur and whistleblower with an unprecedented story: as a child, he was removed from public school under false pretenses and placed in a covert government program focused on psychic (psionic) development—specifically to interact with UFO-related material and technology. What follows is a gripping account blending childhood trauma, high-strangeness, secret research programs, consciousness exploration, and a call for a new paradigm in how humanity understands itself and the anomalous.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Jordan’s Early Life & Unraveling of Memories

• Childhood and Suppressed Memories

  • Jordan presents as a high-functioning entrepreneur until 2023, when severe PTSD-like nightmares and flashbacks of being in laboratory settings erupt (06:27–10:57).
  • These memories—initially dismissed—are eventually corroborated by gaps in his school records and intervention from his parents, revealing years of missing time and psychological manipulation.

  "I was remembering a life that didn't feel like mine... All of a sudden, this was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks, throwing myself out of bed with nightmares."
  —Jordan (06:46–08:34)

• Gifted & Talented Education (GATE) as a Recruitment Pipeline

  • Jordan and other children identified as gifted were singled out, isolated, and tested for unusual cognitive and psychic abilities (11:09–13:54).
  • School psychologists, posing as specialists, developed covert relationships and extracted him from regular classes and school life.

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2. Removal from School & The “Baker Victory Services” Facility

• Forced Program Enrollment

  • After increasingly frequent absences and isolation, Jordan was forcibly removed from the public school system via a mental health cover story (16:42–17:45).
  • He was placed for two years at Baker Victory Services, ostensibly a behavioral and developmental center, but internally a site for secret research on psychic development (19:09–20:43).

  "It was Stranger Things level stuff."
  —Jordan (16:53)

• Facility Details and History of Abuse

  • Existing records and lawsuits corroborate long histories of abuse and wrongdoing at the facility, including felony charges, record manipulation, and $100 million+ in settlements (21:03–21:45).
  • Jordan notes legitimate special education work happened, but a "rogue element" operated secret programs beneath the surface (20:45).

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3. Experiments & “Psionic” Training

• Initial Testing and Grooming

  • Early experiments focused on ESP and remote viewing, evolving into more developed regimes that required deep meditative and altered states (29:24–33:38).
  • Training methods included intensive neurofeedback and brainwave monitoring, with particular interest in theta and gamma states (36:39–38:35).

  "In my training, they were more interested with getting me to subconsciously believe that awareness is essentially the substrate of this entire universe..."
  —Jordan (31:20)

• Random Number Generators (RNGs) and Mind-Matter Experiments

  • Jordan describes how his and others’ minds could influence external RNGs in statistically significant ways, echoing findings from the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) lab (47:10–48:42).

• Biofeedback and Subconscious Reprogramming

  • Training aimed to rewire the subconscious to accept new realities—if your subconscious does not believe in psychic abilities or UAP interaction, you can’t access it consciously (38:54–39:58).

  "If your subconscious does not believe that whatever you're doing is possible, then your conscious mind will not allow it to be possible."
  —Jordan (38:56)

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4. Interaction with UFO Technology: The "Relic” (Sylvia)

(50:09–62:27)

• The “Crystal Orb” Experience

  • Jordan describes a pivotal event involving a "literal crystal orb," dubbed Sylvia, that exhibits sentience and interacts psychically—mirroring his gaze, adapting internally, and establishing a felt link (54:29–56:33).
  • Sylvia communicated telepathically, conveying that it was fundamentally neutral and acted as a manifestation of some collective human thought-form or consciousness (60:00–62:32).

  "As I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure... adapts and it like, changes. And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me."
  —Jordan (54:39–55:04)

• Implications of “Relic” Technology

  • The program classified it not strictly as "tech" but as a "relic"—signaling perhaps ancient origins or deep entanglements with human consciousness (57:24).

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5. Piloting UFOs Through Mind: The Prometheus System

(65:50–74:07)

• Direct Mental Interfaces

  • Jordan was trained to “become” objects, not just view them remotely—merging consciousness with UFOs in the lab and piloting them using only states of awareness (68:30–72:46).

• Technical Ambitions: Neural Replication

  • Researchers used EEG to record his brainwave patterns while he piloted these objects; these patterns were then used to create interfaces so “ordinary” people could operate the craft via machine-emulated signals, theoretically bypassing the need for psi talent (68:30–72:46).

  "They're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind."
  —Jordan (68:53)

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6. Dangers and Ethical Violations

• Drugging and Psychological Manipulation

  • Jordan was administered numerous drugs (antipsychotics, possible puberty blockers) as part of efforts to keep his mind in a malleable, prepubescent state to maximize psychic ability (28:16–29:19).
  • Attempts to seek help (e.g., calling 911 from the facility) were intercepted and shut down (27:10–27:49).

• Moral Implications & Systemic Cover-Ups

  • The program justified these actions under the pretense of mental illness. He recounts how records, parental consent, and oversight were routinely manipulated (103:10–104:48).

  "By the grace of God... finally like petitioned the state of New York to come and look in at this facility... They didn't want that to happen. So I was hastily returned..."
  —Jordan (103:40)

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7. Integration, Healing, and Skywatcher

• Recovering Memories & Personal Healing

  • After resurfacing memories, Jordan underwent immense psychological struggle, including a suicide attempt, before finding healing through journaling, therapy, and later support from whistleblowers and researchers like Ross Coulthart and Jacob Barber (76:54–79:04).

• Joining (Then Leaving) “Skywatcher”

  • Jordan was introduced to a cohort (Skywatcher) of former defense contractors and special operators working on UAP disclosure using “psionic” group contact protocols, but ultimately left, seeking a less militaristic, more public-facing approach (81:32–85:07).

  "I just don't see that being the best, like, next chapter for us."
  —Jordan (83:56)

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8. Philosophical Reflections on Consciousness, Time, and Duality

• Panpsychism and Consciousness as Substrate

  • The universe is posited as a dynamic field, not materialist at base. Reality (including UAP) reflects states of awareness and may emerge or subside depending on the mind’s beliefs (33:02–34:44, 118:34–120:03).

• Duality, Observer Effect, and Quantum Mind

  • The duo discuss quantum mechanics, observer effects, synchronicities, and how intention and consciousness shape experienced reality, possibly even time and causality (98:57–123:07).

  "You see the world, not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe... You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive."
  —Jordan (118:34)

• Healing and the Right-Hand Path

  • Jordan urges a new, collective, ethical paradigm: stop exploiting these phenomena for control—embrace consciousness exploration to advance humanity (129:24–131:06).

  "All of this may be scary and completely earth-shattering... it's also the potential for a brand new renaissance."
  —Jordan (145:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the "Relic" (Crystal Orb/Sylvia):

• "The inside of this orb, for lack of a better word, was alive. It was sentient and conscious and felt alive... it adapts and... changes as I look at it." (54:30–56:33)

On Neural Interfaces & Piloting UFOs:

• "I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of sedative and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it, pilot it up and down." (68:53)

On Spiritual and Societal Implications:

• "The more that we collectively actually work together, I think the more that we get, both individually and collectively." (130:28)

On Survivor Advocacy and Psychology:

• "I personally think the greatest gift to humanity that I could be a part of is actually helping in the psychology process." (144:19)

On Disclosure:

• "There's far more to reality than you've been told and you have the right to explore that." (141:11)

Noted Parallels with “Stranger Things," GATE Program, and Whistleblower Network:

• "It was Stranger Things level stuff." (16:53)
• "Gate serves as this kind of like outside edge, almost recruitment... identifying mechanism." (17:45)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 06:27–10:57 – Early life, PTSD, and discovery of missing childhood years
• 11:09–17:45 – Identification by GATE and extraction from school
• 19:09–22:14 – Life inside Baker Victory Services and rogue research elements
• 29:24–34:33 – ESP and awareness-based remote viewing training
• 36:39–39:58 – EEG monitoring, theta/gamma waves, subconscious belief restructuring
• 47:10–48:42 – Influence on random number generators
• 50:09–62:32 – Encounter with “Sylvia,” the sentient crystal orb
• 65:50–75:34 – The Prometheus System: mental piloting of UFOs
• 76:54–81:30 – Integration, trauma, and connection with Skywatcher cohort
• 83:56–85:07 – Departure from military-style disclosure; call for public innovation
• 98:57–123:07 – Deep dives into consciousness, duality, time, and observer effects
• 144:19–145:21 – New directions in psychology and launch of the Telepathy Center app

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Conclusion & Call to Action

Jordan closes with hope:

“All of this may be scary and completely earth-shattering... but it's also the potential for a brand new renaissance for a lot of us, for a whole new planet to be basically given brand new tools, brand new ways of looking at life, brand new physics.” (145:21)

• Resources: Jordan's project, the Telepathy Center, aims to support survivors and advance psi research.
  • Find out more: thetelepathycenter.com & jordanjozak.com

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For Listeners:

If you or someone you know has had similar experiences or is seeking support, Jordan invites clinicians and supporters to connect via his platforms for future collaborative healing and research efforts.

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End of Content Summary

Transcript

[Jesse Michaels]

No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately, though, the shop's been quiet, so Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs and help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now Hanks has a line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn [e-mail] work this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18.

[Interviewer / Host]

You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know.

[Jordan Jozak]

Be sure to tell me the whole story. By all accounts, I was a normal person. Life was great. Things were working out well in my favor. And then things took a turn. Early 2023. I began to unravel. This was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, being surrounded with people. I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. Shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services. I was in the gate classroom. I drank the pink Dr. It's just that there was a progression of more

[Interviewer / Host]

and what sort of experiments would they have you do? And what would they test you on?

[Jordan Jozak]

These uap, ufo, other materials. They're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind. I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of sedative and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it. Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. From what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller.

[Interviewer / Host]

That is wild.

[Jordan Jozak]

The people in the program had this thing. They called it a relic. And sitting at the center of the coffee table, it's a literal crystal orb. But the inside of this orb was alive.

[Interviewer / Host]

Whoa.

[Jordan Jozak]

And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure, it adapts and it like, changes.

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh my God.

[Jordan Jozak]

And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me, right? Consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. It's you, your disclosure. Consciousness, awareness, the fact that the world is not as we see it. It's constantly evolving. Like, that's the epitome of disclosure.

[Interviewer / Host]

Ignition sequence

[Jordan Jozak]

how is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that. Their existence cannot longer be denied.

[Jesse Michaels]

There's a state that researchers call hypnagogia, that threshold between waking and sleep where the brain is doing something genuinely unusual. It's where a lot of people report their most vivid experiences. The kind of thing that comes up in remote viewing accounts, other altered states, research, and some of the most fascinating conversations I've had on the show. Since moving to Austin, sleep is something I've thought a lot more about, mostly because I don't get a ton of it. Until recently, I was sleeping on a mattress that I've had for the last 10 years and it was clearly not helping me get the sleep I need. When I finally decided I need to fix that, a friend told me to try Helix and I'm so glad I did. They actually have a sleep quiz that matches you to the right mattress based on your sleep position, your body type, and whether you sleep hot or cold. I got matched with Helix Midnight with the cooling cover, which I know is going to matter a lot in these very hot Austin summers. While I've loved my Helix mattress for a while now, Helix also recently sent me their comfort adjust cooling pillow. I wake up with zero neck stiffness which for someone sitting in a recording chair for hours is a miracle. Helix Sleep has 20 plus mattresses, free shipping, a 120 night trial and a limited lifetime warranty and Helix was recently named one of USA Today's most trusted brands for 2026. Visit helixsleep.com Jessie Michaels Michaels with no a to take of their 4th of July sale and get 20% off site wide and be on the lookout for additional sales on the Helix site. Thank you so much to Helix Sleep for sponsoring this episode.

[Interviewer / Host]

Jordan Jozak it is an honor to have you. You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know and you've turned some very dark things in your childhood and life into a very positive mission and message and I think you're remarkable and I'm just honored because I know it's not easy for you to do this and to tell your story that you are doing this on our show. It means A lot to me.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on, Jesse. This show's been a long time coming and I'm just as honored to be in the position here to present it with you.

[Interviewer / Host]

The honor is mine. Why don't we back up to 2023 because you were by all accounts a normal and very high functioning successful person. Do you want to describe just like give a snapshot of your life at the time?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So 2023, I was a very normal run of the gun person. I was a serial entrepreneur, so I had some successful ventures in business. I worked in the tree care industry. I was working in kind of applied agentic AI in late 2023.

[Interviewer / Host]

Early for agentic AI.

[Jordan Jozak]

Very early, very early. We were doing some cool things with wildfire prevention and very cool. Just like next generation research to help utility companies. Super proud of what I was doing at the time. And yeah, by all accounts, outside looking in as well as from the inside looking at myself. I was a normal person, success driven. Life was great. Things were working out well in my favor. And then as you know, things took a turn. Things took a turn when I kind of went through some personal struggles, was going through some relationship challenges, was also working in the startup field. So just very high stress and getting into like late 2022, early 2023, just with some triggering things in normal life, I began to unravel, for lack of a better word, and unravel in a sensation that brought back what I could only describe as childhood memories that I had not previously recollected. I was remembering a life that didn't feel like mine. And it wasn't just like simply, hey, I was remembering something. All of a sudden. This was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks, throwing myself out of bed with nightmares. After this kind of triggering moment, just where work was boiling up against my relationship changes, all of it came flooding back to where I was remembering things that like, I couldn't place in linear time. So I didn't know what was going on. I thought like, hey, did I just draw the crazy straw? Did something happen to me cyc psychologically. So I did what a normal person would do, right? Like went out, sought help, started working with therapists and began to figure out that what I was recalling was actually dissociated parts of my childhood.

[Interviewer / Host]

Wow. And prior to that, what had you kind of conceived of when it came to your childhood? Did you have this kind of linear full memory of it?

[Jordan Jozak]

Not at all. But in that same respect, how many people really think about Their childhood. Right. Like, do you remember your childhood when you're.

[Jesse Michaels]

No, it's funny, I was just recounting

[Interviewer / Host]

like my, you know, elementary school teachers, and it was a struggle, but I

[Jesse Michaels]

was like able to like do it.

[Interviewer / Host]

But it's not something that's top of mind.

[Jordan Jozak]

Exactly.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Jozak]

And that was my same experience with it too. It was like, I thought, to the best of my knowledge, I lived a very normal life. You know, grew up in a small rural town. Things were just normal for me, for lack of a better word, and graduated high school, went on to be a very success oriented person. Beat cancer at a very young age at age 20.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's amazing.

[Jordan Jozak]

And then, yeah, just, just went off. I was just like a hard working, committed individual and life was good. And then the memories started, like I said. And these memories weren't typical memories. These weren't even necessarily memories of just what someone would consider like abuse or something that, you know, our brain from an aspect of protecting us from trauma would hide. They were simply things that I didn't even have the vernacular to articulate. So I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, being surrounded people that I learned to recognize and learn to actually remember names. And all this went on for about a period of about two months where I was having severe ptsd, remembering all these childhood experiences, lab settings, things I didn't have the vocabulary for. And then I eventually just began investigating my own past because at a certain amount of volume of this, at a certain amount of, wow, I'm a grounded individual, I can journal about this. I'm not making this up. What is this? I began to look into my own past. And what I found was that I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. My parents were told a story that was not essentially what happened to me in person. And upon leaving the program that I was admitted into, I lost all memory of those experiences until they resurfaced into 2023.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's remarkable. So you mentioned memories of being in a lab now, having pieced together what your childhood actually was. What happened?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. So basically in 2004, 2005, I was tested by gifted and talented education. People may have heard the gates or the tag claims. I was tested with what was the Woodcock Test of Achievement. It's basically like a neuropsychological testing platform. And I was testing incredibly gifted in certain categories. Primarily there was a huge split between my verbal and nonverbal learning sections. But otherwise normal kid. Right. I was not diagnosed Autistic. I was not diagnosed with psychological problems. I was run of the mill, very normal, but highly gifted when it came to some of my applications in academia. That started this runaway process where a team of psychologists, which again, names, records, all of this is documented. But just to leave some anonymity here in hopes that there is some justice later on in life, a team of psychologists began this relationship working with me actually coming into the school system around 2005 to better understand how my brain worked in reality as a young child. This was all around the fourth grade. So I'm about age nine now. I was being told to not tell anyone about this. I was being told that I was a very special kid, I had a very special brain, and no one else would understand. So essentially what this started was gait, was this identifier that said, hey, there's something very special that's happening with me. After that happened, a whole bunch of psychologists began a routine of working with me, not from the school system, but coming into the school system, and essentially started this internal grooming process with me where I would be separated and basically encouraged to keep this a secret as this progression happened. So that carried on for a few years. And if you can imagine, like, take yourself back to elementary school. I didn't really know what to make of this. It was just a lot of testing. There wasn't necessarily anything bad happening to me.

[Interviewer / Host]

Would they come to class and just kind of pluck you from class?

[Jordan Jozak]

I would get removed from class, so a phone call would come in. Hey, Jordan's gotta come down to, you know, so and so's office. And that's where I would spend maybe, you know, six hours or sometimes the full day.

[Interviewer / Host]

And where did you grow up?

[Jordan Jozak]

Springville, New York.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay.

[Jordan Jozak]

Small rural town in western New York upstate area. Very small, like, graduating class of about 120 kids.

[Interviewer / Host]

And you're like, what, like 10 years old? Ish.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yep. Started around age nine. And for the course of this, as I kind of described this, was between the ages of 9 and 14.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay. And so when you say, you know, kind of, they're saying, jordan, we want to know how your brain works and that, you know, you mentioned the word grooming. What exactly are they doing?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, so they were very interested. So a couple things that I can kind of of give some more context on. One, I was testing very highly in these certain categories. Two, I had a very kind of strong ability to visualize. So, for example, like, at age 9, one of the things that these psychologists were fascinated about was my Ability to spell, because I was spelling at like a college level. And for me, I had this ability to where I could just visualize a word. Right. So it was just kind of in my mind's eye. I didn't know. I thought every kid did this. Right. I could picture a word in my mind and then break apart the letters piece by piece. And as I would tell these psychologists this, they were trying to understand how I was exhibiting some of these behaviors. Like they knew what was happening. They were fascinated by it. Right. The ability to visualize was something that was a strong point of the later parts of the program that I progressed into. But at this point, it was just mainly, hey, we want to understand how you're doing some of these things. You're testing very specific, Sit with us, build a relationship with us. And as this progressed, what was happening to me is I was kind of becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the kids, the rest of my teachers. As you know, you can kind of look in my investigation level of this, my teachers were not told what was going on either. Right. Nor was the full category given to the school district. It just looked like I had a bunch of absences. I was being pulled from classes. No one really knew who was pressing the button. Right. Who really was the psychologist who sent them, et cetera. All of this continued within the public school system to where I was just being tested. Relationship was being formed until about age 12. So getting into sixth, seventh grade, I began to recognize that something wasn't right here. The rest of my friends weren't doing this. I wanted to kind of go be normal. I didn't get what any of this was going for. And at the same time, I was kind of like pushing back almost with these people that were coming in to meet with me. My mother and father at the time were basically told that I needed to leave the public school system. And it wasn't because I was a special kid. It was because I had grown so unstable that I could no longer be in the public school system. And essentially a whole mental health diagnoses overlay came on board around like 2010 that provide the justification to remove me from the public school system, whether my parents wanted it or not. And that started my basically academic attendance in this two year program outside of the public school system.

[Interviewer / Host]

But to back up real quick, you were fine.

[Jordan Jozak]

I was fine. Yeah, I was fine. Yeah, I was fine.

[Interviewer / Host]

So the mental health thing was a cover for them to remove you? It was an excuse.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yep.

[Interviewer / Host]

And how did your parents react to all this terrified.

[Jordan Jozak]

My mother at the time was trying to remove me, you know, from the school district. Not having luck. We tried to move at one point, didn't have luck. I was refusing to go to school at one point and you know, people from the school district were actually showing up and removing me from the house. Like it was Stranger Things level stuff.

[Jesse Michaels]

That's insane.

[Interviewer / Host]

It really is like the show Stranger Things in real life, which is based on the Montauk experiment. I think a lot of people at this juncture in the interview are probably resonating with some of the stuff you're saying. There are plenty of gate kids out there and this seems like the initial layers of what you've experienced. You experience much deeper stuff. But there are people out there who they have to take the pink drink and they have a year gap in their knowledge of their elementary school.

[Jordan Jozak]

100%. 100%. And for those kids, the other gay people, you know, what I'm ultimately describing is like gait serves as this kind of like outside edge, almost recruitment, right? Or almost like identifying mechanism. So so many people are tested within gifted and talented education. Not everyone progresses in further. So like for example, as I'm meeting with all these psychologists, early years I was enrolling gate, right? Like I was in the gate classroom, I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a progression of more and then getting up to this part of the story. In 2008, this was like the public school system and the gate classroom could no longer provide the COVID for what they wanted to do experimentation wise. So to do that, you remove that person from that area, you provide some cover justification on why you're doing that. And that began a two year journey to where I attended school into a nondescript since been shut down, sued six ways to Sunday school. That was from the outside serving neurodivergent and behavioral health kids. But on the inside was supporting a mission for defense contractor research for psychic potential development.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, Wild, what's the name of that facility?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. No longer exists now. But at the time it was called Baker Victory Services. This center provides specialized services for students with autism or cognitive disabilities paired with mental health diagnoses. So on the outside looking in, this facility was serving autistic kids, nonverbals, other people with behavioral health. They had nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists, all on staff in this school. Think like special education 811 classroom. Only 40 kids total in the facility. So just like highly structured support golden shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility. At Baker Victory Services, a lot of

[Jesse Michaels]

people watching, they might be thinking, okay, this Baker Victory Services, I'm going to go search it. They search it and they see this organization that seems to still be operational today. What's going on with that?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, that's a really good question. So Baker Victory Services still exists today. It's a much larger organization serving a lot of other purposes which are like, good. Right. The organization itself was not the problem. It was the exact location and kind of the element that I was in. So if you want the exact address, like, it's very hard to dig up because the facility is closed today. But it was like 650 Ridge Road. It was a small, nondescript building that was known as a day treatment center.

[Jesse Michaels]

650 Ridge Road.

[Jordan Jozak]

Right.

[Jesse Michaels]

And that was like a subsidiary of this Baker Victory Services.

[Interviewer / Host]

Correct, Got it.

[Jesse Michaels]

So it's almost like that was used as a shell for this other kind

[Interviewer / Host]

of rogue cutout organization.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, now you're talking. And again, like, even in that facility, legitimate things happening, right? Legitimate treatment happening for kids that needed it. However, there was just this rogue element that was operating out of it that supported the program that I was involved with.

[Jesse Michaels]

But even with open source research, you do get hints of some malfeasance, right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, I mean, you can, like, it's not hard to find. Right. I think like the supervisor was arrested like 210 felonies. I think the news article reads for like article manipulation or record manipulation. There's a hundred million dollar lawsuit that got settled due to just this huge sexual abuse over the years. OLV Human Services says three employees at the Victory Learning center in Lackawanna are now on leave over those allegations of physically mistreating students. I like to say there's a lot of smoke. Right? You don't really necessarily need to find the fire. You can just look and see that there's been a history of problems at the place.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's a lot of smoke. $100 million lawsuit over sexual abuse and

[Jesse Michaels]

210 felonies and falsifying records.

[Interviewer / Host]

We have a model that works for

[Jordan Jozak]

these young people and allows them to

[Interviewer / Host]

be the best they can be and

[Jordan Jozak]

go on and leave lives just like you and I. You know, what this looked like is, you know, I would attend school like a normal kid for like two to three days a week, and then for the other two to three days a week, depending on that. I was working heavily with a team of psychologists, researchers, psychiatrists, onto some of the tasks that we can get into.

[Interviewer / Host]

So you're you're, you're at this facility and they're, they're, they've kind of realized that, that you're really talented even within this kind of group of neurodivergent kids. And then they take you down to this basement and what are they doing there? As opposed to kind of the top level.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. So when I first got into this facility, at the time for like, there was a period about like two to three months where like things were normal, where I wasn't doing the extracurricular, you know, ESP exercises, the weird psychologists that were coming to see me in the public school system were gone and no longer seeing me. So at the, the time I was like, I'm rescued. Right? The weird stuff has stopped. Two months later, a team of interns get hired, and this team of interns specifically work on me in my case. And the same process that I described in the public school system kind of restarts. So new person comes in, positions himself as a psychologist and as a therapist, and begins working with me to better understand my relationship with what we called at the time esp.

[Interviewer / Host]

And do you remember their names or.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, without, like I said, you know, I'm very hopeful that, you know, our establishment or government will do something from an investigation standpoint, you know, if they're willing to really take a stab at this. But let's call it Meg. Meg was my one on one trainer slash therapist.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay. And you've provided this information, by the way, to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee, is that right?

[Jordan Jozak]

I've provided this information to, you know, past members of Senate Select Intelligence Committee. I've provided it to numerous three letter agencies, I've briefed them, given them the locations, the names, et cetera. Throughout my tenure of really working in the background of disclosure, fighting the good fight alongside guys like David Grusch and et cetera. And to this point, nothing has happened.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's really frustrating and annoying and hopefully after this episode something does happen. But so this Baker Victory Services, this organization, it's also a Catholic Church or it's affiliated with the Catholic Church?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, affiliated by it. So there was the, I believe it's termed the Father Baker Organization in Western New York. So just think like Catholic nonprofit, you know, doing like good things. This was meant to serve more of the foster home community as well as, you know, just develop a community resource for kids that weren't plugging well into the public school system. So it was a little bit normal where you may see like nonprofits step into like special education, get accredited to like support the school system. So it wasn't like a literal Catholic school or Catholic church. It just more or less organizationally existed within that umbrella.

[Interviewer / Host]

Gotcha. And so they realize, okay, Jordan, you are like, extremely talented at some of this extrasensory perception stuff. They take you to, to the basement and what happens there.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, I don't want to make it sound too strange to things. Like it wasn't like going to the basement, you know, like the facility itself. Right. Super nondescript, didn't look like a school. You never know. It was there, you know, like 2008. Highly secure. Like, the entire thing had components that would be like, comparable to what people have called like a skiff before. Right. So badge in, badge out, RFID everywhere. No electronics, you know, in the building. Even as a kid. Right. Really couldn't bring your PSP in, You

[Interviewer / Host]

couldn't bring a Faraday cage.

[Jordan Jozak]

Completely high level security at this place. And, and I can kind of get into some more levels of security that I experienced, you know, as a kid, because as I'm telling this, you know, I've gotten to a point of, of healing and integration and now, as you know. Right. Like, trying to fight the good fight to do better about this. But, like, don't mistake the, you know, level of like, healing that I've done to, you know, really reflect like the tear that actually this whole entire experience was like in childhood. You know, essentially it was like being stuck in a, you know, a facility where you had no control. Right. There were things very akin to, I don't want to really say torture, but, you know, in some respects, being given medications and substances and things that I don't even know for purposes of experimentation. Like that's a problem. Problem, you know, that's a big problem.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's a huge problem. Well, it's a huge problem for this to happen to you over multiple years and for them to kind of be grooming you at your school and for your parents to push back to the point of wanting to move and take you out of the school system and for them to keep coming back. Like, the levels of coordination implied here

[Jordan Jozak]

are deep, deep level, you know, and it's even beyond that. Like, I can tell, you know, later in the story, I'll get into some examples of like, well, hey, hey, if you were a kid, why didn't you try to do something about this? I did. Right. So many times in some of the more rigorous experiments, I would get out, call 911 from the school facility, but the lines were surveilled so you would get through to 911 and then immediately an operator would take over and be like, hey, sorry, someone from the school, one of the kids is like prank dialing 911. So there was like no way in or out of any of this.

[Interviewer / Host]

Also your kids, kid. And when you're a kid, you can get conditioned into, you know, feeling some sort of Stockholm syndrome. And you're told, oh no, we're doing this for your benefit or whatever. You're really highly impressionable. And you mentioned too, that they gave you there's like this critical window of heightened kind of extra sensory perception ability, and it's before puberty. And they would give you puberty blockers to sort of enhance this.

[Jordan Jozak]

There was all sorts of stuff being administered to me while I was in there, you know, like on paper, right? Like, so looking back on my own records, like there were I think over a dozen antipsychotics that I was on during these, like two years. So things like Haldol, Zoloft, like, just, just to name a few, just a ridiculous amount of medications that does not reflect what was being administered inside the facility that my parents didn't know about. There were other things that I was being taken. There was other things for specific sessions, right. That would be given that I don't even know, you know, when it comes to the level of like, hey, there's some sigh or, you know, some ability within our brains in a prepubescent era. Yeah, that was communicated to me. And I believe it has something to do with relation of our, like, right and left hemispheres before they're fully formed during puberty. But I think essentially it's just at that younger age I had a, an ability to essentially exert more than someone else that was an adult.

[Interviewer / Host]

And what sort of experiments would they have you do and what would they test you on?

[Jordan Jozak]

So a lot of the tests, we can kind of think this started off very baseline of like esp, right? So kind of like thinking about extra sensory perception and how that would show up for people. And I was told from like a number one day, like, you can just think of all of this. This was like ESP training is what essentially, you know, was happening to me there for the idea of this later being utilized in like a defense establishment, you know, style progression funnel. But, you know, in the beginning, right, esp and it's highly structured for each person. And that's what I would be told, right? Like, for example, they would be giving me a lot of tests and a lot of experiments and like seeing How I respond or seeing how I would apply this, because there was no like, rubric or there was no, like, cheat sheet on. Like, you do the same thing every time and it works the same way for everyone. I was instead told that everyone's highly unique and you need to kind of develop your own way of doing this. Once you have your own way of doing, doing this will help you amplify it. It's kind of a way to think about that. So, for example, a lot of the very early on sessions would be understanding my abilities. How are they showing up from a cognitive perspective? Did I process information more kinesthetically? Right. Like, was it more I feel things in my body, was I processing it more auditory? Right. Like, hey, telepathy, I hear it, right. Or in my case, I was a highly visual person, right. So I had the ability to get out of my body in the other room, see things from a distance, and kind of shift my awareness visually. So for the progression of most of the time in these two years, I was highly working on visual abilities.

[Interviewer / Host]

So sort of similar to remote viewing programs or, you know, astral projection or out of body things like that.

[Jordan Jozak]

100%, yeah. So we were doing a lot different stuff than like, you'll see from like the Stanford Research Institute or like the Stargate area. You see a lot of CRV techniques like controlled, repeatable, follow a technical process. I was given a whole kind of different regiment of training and teaching that kind of relied primarily on getting our subconscious mind to believe that something was possible. And I can kind of go into this in a little bit more detail. So for like a typical remote viewing exercise, you're given a target. You may have a protocol, maybe you're doing some meditation or, or some, you know, bilateral simulation or auditory stuff to help you take information out of that target. You might see it visually, you might see it otherwise. Otherwise you're taking information, you know, kind of from the field. In my training, they were more interested with getting me to subconsciously believe that awareness is essentially the substrate of this entire universe and our awareness can shift, shift into any other piece of awareness in this underlying universe. So what this would mean is like instead of trying to remote view into a room, or let's say I remote viewed into a hallway, but I was having issues getting through a door. There was a lot of subconscious training to basically help me understand that my awareness could become the door, I could become the room, I could become the filing cabinet where the documents are in and then extract the information that way. So it was A lot less view viewing. It was a lot more manipulating your own awareness to become the things that we see in the universe.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's fascinating. So it's almost like a panpsychist worldview or something where maybe everything is somewhat conscious or everything is at least awareness. And you can port your own awareness into what we think of as even inanimate unconscious objects.

[Jordan Jozak]

100%. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like the underlying substrate of the universe as we want to take it back. Back. Whether it's awareness or it is this undefined substrate, it is accessible, malleable, and reflexive to awareness. So you can either a place your awareness in it, or you could perhaps exert some control by shifting your awareness.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's either a possible vessel for awareness or it's awareness itself, where it's somehow compatible with awareness.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. I tell this story, too, for a lot of people. Like, you know, as we get into, like, consciousness research now, I often use the analogy that, like, consciousness, you can perceive more as, like, a vehicle. Imagine a car, four tires, Right. And a steering wheel. And that's how you can kind of think as consciousness. It's like the vehicle that gets driven. However, awareness is actually what's sitting in the driver's seat of the car. Right. So a lot of things can hold consciousness, but awareness is actually that kind of, like, universal substrate of, like, the is. And when you follow that perception better, you can kind of better understand, well, like, how could you get out of your body? How could you shift into something? Well, it's actually not necessarily consciousness. It's like that's the holder and the vehicle and the container. But there's awareness that's a step deep.

[Interviewer / Host]

Fascinating. So what sort of specifically they would say, okay, remote view. What's in the other room? Or would they give you a target like in, you know, we hear about in kind of traditional military remote viewing programs.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. All sorts of different exercises. I would be given targets. A lot of this was, like, testing, right. So it's like there were, in terms of like, the regimented aspect, like, they did have these exercises kind of mapped out for a lot of the remote viewing or like, the astral projections. The way that we were doing it, like I just described, we were actually doing it with a partner. So like, Meg, in that example, would often walk through what we call the relaxation exercise, but in reality was some type of auditorial stimulation. The headphones, different binaural beats that were helping me access different brainwave states. And then Meg would have essentially kind of a checklist and this checklist was to get my subconscious mind to relax. This would be like, hey, we're flying a plane. You don't have to worry about flying the plane. All you need to do is tell me what you do see, right? So I would be, you know, continuously walked down through a state of consciousness to where, you know, I was outside of my body. And there was like a partner duo team of coaching of giving inputs on like, I need you to go here, what do you see? Right. And then where that actually served a huge benefit is like in traditional remote viewing, right, it's very common for a remote viewer to like get to a certain point and just hit a roadblock and just be like, I can't get through this. But if you have someone else in the experience with you, you can kind of riff on each other, right? So you can think of other out of the box solutions to get your awareness to the target or wherever you're trying to go. So everything that we were doing was highly team based. And for most of those two years, right, this was like they had some outcomes that they already knew, right. And this was kind of tracking my accuracy on how good I could get.

[Interviewer / Host]

Were they using an EEG to map your electrical brain signals?

[Jordan Jozak]

So not for like every remote viewing astral projection signal, but that was a key part of this, you know, development in the program. So, you know, earlier on the chair, right, I, I, I call it the chair. But this was where a lot of my traumatic memories actually like came back in that earlier 22. Like the ones that I really didn't understand would be me in a chair with what I now know now as like a neurofeedback EEG headset, but at the time, right, didn't have the language to articulate it. And a screen, right, with my brainwaves being. And I would be asked to cycle through different cognitive applications like hey, visualize something or try to communicate with the plant, whatever type of ESP level thing we were doing. And they were watching my brainwave signals. And then I would be asked at certain times to be like, hey, whatever you just did two seconds ago, I need you to repeat that. So they were highly interested in, in theta spikes as well as gamma spikes. And there was some level of neurofeedback being used to like reinforce this. So as I would actually like exert, Hey, I visualized in a unique way. Well, that produced a gamma spike they were interested in. How can we get that to hold longer?

[Interviewer / Host]

Why do you think theta and gamma were interesting to them?

[Jordan Jozak]

Just Deeper levels of like, neuron level of like, symbiosis. Like, for example, like in a gamma spike or when the brain's really operating like at a gamma level, um, it's almost as if, like every neuron's beginning to synchronize and almost fire at the same time. So instead of just having a reduced brainwave state. Right. You're having essentially like, this is really. I'm not a neurologist, I'm not a neuroscientist. Just to be very clear here. I'm butchering this up just from my own understanding. But basically I think that there's a higher level of amplitude when it comes to ESP level activities when somebody can get into a game. Gamma state.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, it's a. It's extremely high frequency and like, like, you know, one of the highest. And that's interesting that you were saying that they wanted you to access your subconscious. It's almost like undergirding your conscious thoughts. Are these subconscious beliefs?

[Jordan Jozak]

I. I don't want to interrupt.

[Interviewer / Host]

No, please, no.

[Jordan Jozak]

Just to add on that. So, like, that's a huge key part of like, any type of psychic development. If your subconscious does not believe that whatever you're doing is possible, then your conscious mind will not allow it to be possible. Your subconscious has to believe it. Right. It's like belief almost equals reality in this regard. And I think this applies to a lot of people when they hear about psychic phenomena or they hear about UFOs or UAP. Like, there very well may be a cognitive filter that we don't yet have mapped. Right? And like, why do some people experience some things? Why do some people see a uap, but some don't? Right. There might literally be like a subconscious protective mechanism where if your subconscious mind doesn't believe that it's possible, then it's not going to become possible in your reality, your experience of perception. And I believe that to be true just because of how much work went into getting me trained on the subconscious level. If you can do this, you can remote view, you can shift your awareness, you can do all these things. You have to believe it.

[Interviewer / Host]

One of my favorite quotes is on Reberg Sohn. The eyes can only see what the mind can comprehend.

[Jordan Jozak]

Head.

[Interviewer / Host]

And that's, you know, I think this beautiful and very telling, sort of. And they do, they do these tests where they say, you know, did you see the gorilla walking across the room? Like you were counting the amount of dribbles in the video or whatever. And you know, people don't see the obvious Thing because they're not looking for it. So attention is really important. And they even get into the reticular activation system in the brain. And why that is. There are all sorts of studies around that and then hypnosis, too. And it's like you can literally go to a magic show and somebody will get you into some sort of hypnotized state on stage. Or you could see this in the audience, and you say, hey, you're stuck to the floor. And all of a sudden the person's stuck to the floor. They can't move their arms apart. So the subconscious mind is extremely powerful as far as how it affects your reality. And, yeah, that's interesting. So they're using biofeedback almost some sort of, like, Pavlovian conditioning. Or you have this partner who's kind of helping you get into these states where you can move around as far as your subconscious more freely. Or you can, to put it better, you can actually change your subconscious beliefs, whereas you're not getting that deep in sort of normal conscious awareness. Is that right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. That's one way to think about it. Ultimately. Like the partner, you know, level dynamic of this, one, it was just kind of more useful for the training. But two, right, you had someone else that could provide a secondary perspective, right? And, like, just for the viewer, like, to imagine this, like, I'm. I'm in a deep, relaxed, meditative state, right? I'm probably like in a theta wave state. I have some level of binaural beats, right, that are helping me kind of shift my awareness out of body. However, I'm still able to communicate, right? Like through my mouth, right? I'm not like, in my body. I'm visualizing. I'm way out here, hear. But the act of talking is still kind of something that I can do, right? And from that I can still hear, right? The partner that's next to me that can help me maybe understand. Here's a way to think outside of the box. So if you get stalled, you're trying to get into a different place, trying to get into a different thing, that partner can give you a secondary perspective that's useful, that you can apply back into the experience. So, you know, different perspectives are like, that was the key to all of this. So, like, this, this whole different level of projection and viewing. If you could imagine the way that you viewed whatever you were viewing, whether that be from the third person perspective or perhaps, like I used the example before, if you run into a roadblock, you're trying to see what's on the other side of a door and you can't seemingly find a way to get your awareness there. Well, your awareness can become that door. Right? Like, that's that idea of, you know, seeing outside the box.

[Interviewer / Host]

And do you get the sense that they want your skills at this facility because of their functional benefit for specific operations? Or is it more like, let's train Jordan up to be this child super soldier psychic?

[Jordan Jozak]

So, as we've now seen in this disclosure cycle, the pieces that have been really held back and for good reason, because here I am, there's massive human rights violations. But what this was serving. What was this? What was I a part of? Well, I was in a psionic development pipeline for legacy program development. So the idea being is I was not supposed to leave this program. Right? This was, hey, for a few years while your brain is in the state that we can make malleable and train before puberty, we can install these things, we can get you highly specialized, whatever your specialties are going to be. And then later on, you're going to end up, you know, being sucked into deeper levels of the legacy program, whether that be, you know, UAP and crash retrieval operations, or whether that be, hey, our remote viewing, espionage or other level of psionic applications. So this was like one of the aspects of that pipeline that would have

[Interviewer / Host]

went on to serve that what convinces you that this was sort of a feeder for the UFO legacy program? Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, this is psi. This is extrasensory perception. Isn't that wholly separate from, you know, nuts and bolts, UFOs, reverse engineering, that sort of thing?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. Well, they're not. Mainly because I interacted at later stages with this, with what we consider like recovered materials. Other language used from inside the program were actually relics. Make of that what you will. But I've told the story publicly on a piece of technology that I interacted with that I'm happy to kind of tell again here. And the story is about the. This piece of tech.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. And this is at the same Baker facility?

[Jesse Michaels]

Yes.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. So this, this was brought in. So this tech, whenever we worked with tech, it never existed in the facility. What would happen is there would be a team that would bring it in. Highly specialized, highly structured, never see these people. I wasn't allowed to interact with them, but essentially it'd be like eight security personnel and a huge box, you know, and then I would be in the room with a team of people watching me. And they were utilizing me essentially in the experience that I'LL get here next to better understand how something worked that wouldn't communicate with them, but would actually communicate telepathically to people with certain types of consciousness. And I was one of them. And what we'll find as disclosure continues, or as we already know from people that have spoken out, like Jacob Barber and others, is that consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. Consciousness is the root of UAP and UFO phenomena. Phenomena. It's not necessarily a materialistic aspect. It's that there's something far more, whether you want to consider it dimensional or not, that is taking on a materialistic form. But consciousness is the core piece of all of it. So you begin to see the world, not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate straight is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our current level of consciousness. So here's another interesting kind of story that ties into this because in that program that I worked on, right, we also worked with something called RNGs, random number generators. And for those that aren't familiar, right. It's many different ways to build RNGs. Some are better than others. I won't get into the details, but just think random number generator. We as in I would have the ability to influence it with my thoughts. And this was one of the ways that they like very early tested, you know, was this person psychically active? Could they have an effect on that field that I'm describing? And even though this is technological, a random number generator, there are examples where I personally and watched other kids push them sigmas, Sigmas of multitudes and held for hours just by using our thoughts.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's amazing. Yeah. So you can, you can standard deviations of changes, changes on these things that are supposed to be tied to random quantum mechanical events. So things like radioactive isotope decay or double slit experiment where you'd expect a 50, 50 on the left slit, the right slit. And that is tied to what's a binary computer where you have ones and zeros. And what you're saying is you can affect it in a really statistically significant way to get a lot of ones or a lot of zeros.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. It's actually one of the most fun things to te that you can actually do this as an individual. Like you can go find a flash rng. You can go find an RNG online. We're building an RNG later in our app that we'll kind of get to later in this episode, but you can test your own ability to do this right? And you can figure out and hone in that own intuitive signal. There's not again, a one size fits all that works for everyone. Some people are like, wow, I kinesthetically imagine myself vibrating. And then the RNG moves for someone else. It's I think of love, right? And then the RNG moves. Like everyone has the kind of their own unique signals that seem to affect and have a better relationship with the field around us. But like, that's one of the most interesting things that I think people, when they begin, like looking into psi or they're hearing about past psychic stuff, they want to see, look, there's no data, there's no nothing. And I'm not going to say that that proves some mechanism or some exact connection of why and how, how, but there's definitely a correlation.

[Interviewer / Host]

There's definitely a correlation and there's actually a ton of data. There's a ton of data from the Princeton Parapsychology Lab, the Perilab, the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was founded by Bob John, who was the dean of the engineering school, who a lot of whose plasma propulsion exists today in satellites, was very well respected and studied this stuff for decades from 78 to 2007 or something, and came out being like, without a shadow of a doubt, this is real. And he would engage with top level physicists and they would say things like, oh, it was survivorship bias and file drawer, and you're making this up. And he would say, no, look at the data. And you end up in these sort of infinite loop things where they say, it can't be. And he was like, you know, it is. And it's wholly consistent with the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics that the observer collapses the wave function. It's just that the observer, we have no model now for which other than the square of the amplitude, which is the likelihood, the probability that you get a certain eigenstate, we have no mechanistic understanding of which eigenstate which state in a wave function gets picked. But anyway, I do want to get back to the core because we left people very excited, I'm sure, about this relic, which was what did it look like? Exactly.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. So my first introduction to this was actually not in the facility. Okay. I think that my interaction in the experience that I'm going to describe here was highly paramount into me getting removed from the public school system and into the facility. It was almost like a check. But basically I had, as I described, one of those psychologists right that were still coming to see me in the public school, school system. I was taken out and I was actually brought to his office. Okay, right. And as I walked into his office, right, Just think normal, blending in, residential neighborhood, run of the mill psychologist. This isn't deep underground military base. It's just super run of the mill. I walk in, I'm being instructed to, you know, go see, you know, go see the doctor. And as I open the door, the first thing that I noticed is, like, well, even before I opened the door in the hallway leading into where the therapy office was, I noticed that there was, like, two people at the end of the hallway that I've never seen before. Plain clothes, dressed, just like, two big dudes. I'm like, that's weird. And as they open the door and I get brought in, immediately, there's my doctor, the psychologist, a woman that I've never seen before. Glasses, business, professional dressed, skirt, like, wearing, has a clothes board, and she's sitting down next to them, like, on a couch together.

[Interviewer / Host]

And is this before or after the Baker Victory services facility?

[Jordan Jozak]

This is. This is three months before I got put in the Baker Victory.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay, got it.

[Jordan Jozak]

This is three months, okay. And this is just run of the mill. I get pulled out of the psychologist, get pulled out of the school system, Going to see the psychologist get brought in the office. This happens. Okay? So, yep, there's people in the hallway. Never seen people before. There's my psychologist. And then there's also this. This female, right? Clipboard. Will not make eye contact with me. Like, weirdly enough, like, won't even acknowledge my existence. And I felt that was, like, super odd. And then there's a few other people, A few other just, like, big males again, like, plain clothed in the room, like, looking out the windows in this office in the center. Like, think table, maybe combined size, if you put these together. Um, there's a table. So couch, table, people over here. I'm asked to kind of go take a seat next to this table. There's what in my young mind I would call a blanket right over an object that I can't make out over this, like, coffee table. Looking backwards now, like, the blanket was like some type of Faraday shielding, right? Some type of, like, electromagnetic shielding or something. But my psychologist, who I knew, right, Begins talking to me. None of the other people in the room will talk to me that the female won't. No one's. This is what was just like, very eerie for me at the time. But the psychologist is like, hi, Jordan. Like, hey, we have something really special for you today. You don't have to do anything. We just want you to tell us what you think of something, right? We're going to show it to you again. You don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it. I'm like already traumatized, nervous. What's happening? Okay, this again. So I think it was the female. She pulls the blanket, like the Faraday shielding off from the coffee table and sitting at the center of the coffee table on a pedestal, right? Like a three prong pedestal is what I would describe as a think of a wizard's orb, like quite seriously, little bit smaller than a basketball, has a defined shell, clear looking like wizard's ball, right? Now here's what's unique about, about this, okay? It has a defined shell. It's a literal crystal orb. But the inside of this orb, for lack of a better word, was alive. So it had a structure that if you could imagine, almost like if you were to imagine Jupiter in your mind and Jupiter's like swirling atmosphere, imagine that inside the sphere, but highly white, highly crystallized. Highly, like almost you're looking into a VVS diamond. It's fractalized, it's swirling and it's emitting its own light source, right? So there's this, it's fixed, defined shell, crystal orb, crystal sphere. There's this inside structure that I can only really attribute to. It is alive. It, it is alive.

[Interviewer / Host]

How big is it?

[Jordan Jozak]

A little bit smaller than a basketball. A little bit smaller than a basketball. So like, you know, maybe take a quarter off of your globe on that side.

[Interviewer / Host]

And what color? Color?

[Jordan Jozak]

Think like white diamond. The color was really hard on this because it was almost like think of your studio lights, almost. Actually it was like this fractalized light inside of it and outside of it. There wasn't really like a color. It was just this white pure light and it's emitting light out of it, right? What's interesting, the first thing that I notice is the psychologist goes like, hey, we want you. You don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it. And I look at it, right? So I actually take my two eyes and I lock eye contact with this thing. And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure that I described, right, that was like fractalized, like Jupiter's atmosphere, kind of swirling. It adapts and it like changes. And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me, right? So that is the first Thing that I noticed, this happens within like two seconds. And when that happens, I actually become like really scared because I also begin feeling this somatic sensation. I felt it very much like literally in my brain where I almost felt like this thing was coming into me. And it made me like terrified. I didn't ever feel that sensation. It wasn't telepathy. It was like, hey, this thing is almost linking with you is the way that I actually, actually felt. And I was just like highly terrified of it. I noticed that as I moved my eyes back and forth, right? This inside structure was actually mirroring my eye movement. And that lasted for 30 seconds. And the blanket was put back over the thing. And the psychologist, his words to me were like, wow, you did great. You did great. You did great. You don't have to do anything. It picks who it likes. And I think it's. It likes you.

[Interviewer / Host]

Whoa, that is wild.

[Jordan Jozak]

And that was the start of my relationship with Sylvia.

[Interviewer / Host]

They named the orb Sylvia.

[Jordan Jozak]

It was her name. Yeah, it was her name. And I mean that mainly because as I later, you know, the start of this relationship to where essentially the people in the program had this thing. I don't know where it came from. I don't know where this crystal orb came from. It was never told me. The sentient consciousness, as I'll get into and expand as I interact with this, never told me where it was from. It wasn't like, oh, we found this from a spacecraft or we dug this up over anywhere. I will note that the people within the program, the people that were actually shepherding this thing around, didn't call it tech, they called it a relic.

[Interviewer / Host]

Called it a relic?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

And they said its name is Sylvia. Or did it transmit its name to you?

[Jordan Jozak]

So that was my first time interacting with it, like locally, right? So it was in the room with me. I had this really quick like 30 second make eye contact. It looks at me, I could feel it, right? Like that was it. That was it. Now fast forward like three months later. Now I'm back. And this is facility. I have this trainer, Meg, right? As we're exploring esp. She brings up like, hey, I heard you met Sylvia, right? And like, can you recall that experience? And I was brought into like another relaxation exercise.

[Interviewer / Host]

She says, I heard you met Sylvia. That orb thing, her name is Sylvia.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we. To back up, there was a. There was some context in the conversation. I heard that you were introduced to some. Something, right? And I was actually brought into like this relaxation exercise with Meg. And she was like, do you know what its name is? And as I'm in this relaxation exercise, I could take myself out of body and I almost like make contact. So it's like as if once I was physically linked with this, you know, like device, relic, whatever you want to call was like, it developed like a tunnel and a path pathway to where like I could communicate with it back. And this began a longer process throughout the program to where they wanted to better understand this thing. So that first example with Meg, I saw it once, different psychologist's office. Now I'm back here in this whole program attic environment. I was actually asked, what do you think its name is? And I could like take myself into this astronomy environment, feel the same energy from it, and it would show up to me visually like this very silver fractalizing type energy. And in one of the experiences it was telling me that his name was Sylvia. So later on it was brought back in and I was essentially like this in between process to better understand what they couldn't understand about it, right? So it didn't telepathically link with anyone else. It wouldn't talk to anyone else. They didn't know what this thing was. Was was basically my understanding. So I would be given tasks on like, hey, we need you to go talk to Sylvia and we need you to come back with like a schematic. We want you to draw how it works or we want you to give us a blueprint on how it works. We need you to ask it these things. We need you to go back and forth.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you remember anything that it transmitted to you?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. Here's the really interesting things with it, right? So here, here's this crystal orb device, fractal, right? It was sentient and conscious and felt alive. It didn't communicate through mouth. It communicated telepathically as it would communicate telepathically. The first and foremost, like the most interesting thing is that it was feminine, right? So it wasn't like, this is just an interesting dynamic. Like it had like from an auditory sense sensation, it had more of a female's voice. It would describe and introduce itself to me as more feminine. And I think this is really interesting as we begin thinking about deep dimensionality and metaphysics and how gender perhaps scales throughout dimensions. I don't think it goes away. I think here this third dimension, human experience, it's like, yeah, you're male or female, right? And fixed or some fluidity in between that. But perhaps as you scale up outside of a body or you're like Ascended consciousness, or you're wherever, whatever Sylvia is, it's. That gender was more of a spectrum. It wasn't like this fixed thing. And that would be something that was communicated to me also. It was essentially told to me in one of the earlier sessions that Sylvia represented more of this thing that we would equate to like a human thought form. And in the deepest communication session that I had had with it, it was being shown to me that, like, Sylvia was human thoughts almost. We, as humans, everything we create, everything we think, everything we're consciously experiencing takes on some form somewhere else. And this energy or this thing is actually very connected to our own thoughts, right? So it's like as we imagine things, maybe they become real, right? It was kind of like the lesson and all of this. And then from that point forward, everything that the program staff are trying to get out of it, like, how does it work, Jordan? You know, draw schematics of it? It didn't want to work with them. So it would be like they would bring it in. I would go in with a session, nothing would really happen and they would just get upset with me, like, go back and try again. Right. And that was really, really, from what I understand, a lot of the stuff that I interacted with was like, hey, they were trying to figure it out.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you think it was good, evil? Did you have any context on how they acquired it?

[Jordan Jozak]

No idea how they acquired it, it itself. This is also, like, very interesting, right? Like, well, hey, like, why would this, whatever it is, interdimensional, different sentient life thing, like, why would it let this happen to you? It was 100% no neutral. It is. It was the epitome of like, neutrality. Like, it, it did not take sides. It didn't, like, it was just so neutral is what was interesting. So which I would think, like, again, as you, you know, almost ascend up in like awareness levels, you have to become non dualistic. You have to become neutral. So it was like, yeah. Was this bad? Well, it looks bad right in that moment, but it's. Who defines what's good, bad and evil, right? Like, there is no fixed state in duality.

[Interviewer / Host]

That is fascinating. Do you still feel somewhat entangled with this object?

[Jordan Jozak]

I don't, I don't. You know, I don't. It's been interesting because I'm curious, right? Like, I'm curious. Is it still kicking around some defense contractors, you know, like, bunker? But I. I don't know.

[Interviewer / Host]

Have you ever heard of anything like it?

[Jordan Jozak]

No, no, I've. I've never the, the best comparison also I can kind of give you, which is interesting, is what is it? The Salvatore del Mundi da Vinci's painting of Christ. Right. If you're familiar with that in that photo crisis, like holding this crystallized orb, right. I believe it's in his left or his right hand. It was very similar to like that size. Right. And again, more fractalized. But I always find that interesting. And because of the language that was being used as relic, perhaps this isn't something from NHI or something that crashed here. Maybe these things have been here a long time, which also ties into thousands of years of esoteric tradition, esoteric wisdom. Right here we are talking about, you know, for those that may not be familiar, this. I worked very closely, you know, leading up to Skywatcher with Ross Goldhart. And Ross Goldhardt has reported about this experience at Esalen Institute in California last year at big Sur, or 2024, rather, where I led a exercise, shared people, the same protocols that I was taught in childhood of how to make contact with nhi. Right. And we did. It was incredible. We had plasma orbs. We had essentially these blue orbs that came, I think, 50 yards of people out of the ocean up through the air. It was amazing. It was the most incredible thing. And then also, let's think about a moment what the shamans have been talking about for 2000s of years. Think about Native American indigenous elders who have been communicating with blue light for thousands of years. All of the parallels are at actually beginning to come together here. So it's not that this is some necessarily, in my opinion or my worldview, some extraterrestrial or some, you know, like very outside the self level of phenomena. It's that, like, all of this is just different slices of the same pie. And consciousness and awareness is the core of it.

[Interviewer / Host]

While you were at Baker Victory Services, did they ever have you fly a craft or lock onto a thing. Thing and move it with your consciousness?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

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[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, so I. There was another aspect that they were highly interested in developing and this was something called the Prometheus System. And for those that know the story of Prometheus, like, you know, go figure, right? The bringer of fire to humanity. Of course, they would name this such device called the Prometheus System.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. So I would call it the Faustian System or something.

[Jordan Jozak]

So just, just like I've described my interactions as sov Via. Right. Like highly telepathic. Right. Just linking through consciousness. That seems to be exactly how most of these UAP UFO other materials are interacted with. Right. So they're not flown with joysticks. They're flowing through the mind, right. And to tie into this, right, I would have examples to where there would be other objects. I would be sometimes brought just into the the same lab environment. In Ribbon Baker Victory, I wasn't on an airfield. But from that process of working with my brain waves getting in the state, it was clear that I was working with something somewhere else. So there were examples to where there were objects that I would be asked to shift my conscious awareness in. So let me back up. Piloting the uap, piloting whatever, whatever it is. Not going to talk about descriptions or anything. Again, phone for the mind. You mesh with it consciously. How do you do that? You take your consciousness outside of your body and you become that object. Right. And there's an art and a skill of doing this. So the same way that right now my consciousness feels like it's in my body, I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of, you know, perhaps sedative or some type of, you know, other substance on often used different auditory aids and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it and from that point of view actually demonstrate command and control. Right. Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. And you would do that by shifting and almost taking advantage. We started this conversation on like observation and awareness. Well, to actually like send commands and controls on these things, you're doing that through the art of shifting your own perception and awareness. So for example, let's say there was an orb or something and I was asked to fly it. Okay. I would shift my consciousness into it. And when that would happen, I would typically experience what I would describe as like a split, if you can imagine like a split screen video game, right. This is all my mind's eye. Imagine a split screen video game where you see something on the left and something on the right. I would basically give these commands and shift my own perspective of myself and said object to get it to move. So on the left hand side I would imagine something from the third person perspective. So I'm imagining the object, my surroundings, what everything looks like around me. And on the right hand of the right hemisphere I'm imagining my forward looking first person perspective. And by the art of flip flopping the two, I'm like want to travel here from my first person perspective. And then on my third person on my left side, I'm imagining what it looks like on a already there. You would actually get this thing to move. Right now they had a lot of EEG monitoring on me as I was doing this and this is where the Prometheus system would come in. Right, So a highly gifted psychic kid can mesh their consciousness and get said object or UAP to move. Well, how do we give that power to an Air Force guy? Right, who's not having open consciousness, does not have an open heart. So there was something actually happening at the brainwave level. You know, some something. What entanglements were showing, what brainwave specs were showing, I don't know. But from what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface, right? So watching my brain waves as I interacted with this thing and then creating a mechanistic machine, an interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller. Right. So now that they have a controller, I can't do this thing myself, but as I push up, it's sending the brainwave that we know, Jordan, you know, communicated and poof up.

[Interviewer / Host]

That is wild. It's a lot quickly being used kind of like as a human joystick or as a bridge to. You have the mind meld and then it's so wild. This is so crazy. But it also dovetails with this kind of book that the Pentagon censored, seven pages of redactions, the Sentinels of Ether book that Jake Barker Barber put out pseudonymously under the pen name Alva Douglas. And it's all about this, it's all about this neural interfaces between the brain and these crafts. And that's how you fly them. That's how you actually get them to show up. And what he calls P3s, people with psionic predisposition potentials, and they're sort of flying the crafts. And then you have, like you said, they're the ones who are kind of heart centered, but they're also sometimes kind of given a lot of pharmacological aids. That's a total euphemism. They're drugged to get into these states. And then you have people from the Air Force, just ordinary people, using these people to fly the objects. It's really crazy.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, it sounds incredibly sci fi. Um, like that's the reality of it.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's so wild. And, and so do you know what you're locking on to? Do you know what, what the objects are that you're locking onto when you're sitting, you're sitting in this chair. What's, what happens?

[Jordan Jozak]

So I, I, I don't know. I don't, how would I say this? I don't know how to answer that like, specifically what I can tell you is like there were different objects. Okay, so like just like in the Sky Watcher environment, right? Like we were seeing different classes of UAPs. To my understanding, the military industrial complex has multiple classes of uap. Some may be the Manta Ray style, some may be the triangle, some may be this. And every person, almost on a consciousness level signal, would perhaps mate up or not mate up with some of them. So it was like, I might work very well with object A, but I can't work with objects B or C. And in my localized like testing and experience, like again, this was like two years of highly standardized like preparation to get me to a point where I would have been doing that full time. Right. But again, it didn't happen in my life story, thank God. So in my experiences they were highly limited. It was just like I got the muscle memory, they got to see that I could do it. But it wasn't like I was doing this every day. It wasn't like, hey, go take the uap, run a mission or something like that. Yeah, it's just I had enough times where I ran through the process to be able to articulate it back here today.

[Interviewer / Host]

And for context, just for the audience, you mentioned Skywatcher. I've done a show with James Fowler, Jake Barber, who also kind of, you know, Ross Coltheart, originally introduced his story to the world. He worked for a contractor that was probably Northrop Grumman. That's through my own and other people's open source research. That's not his own admission. He said you could probably, probably guess. So I want to make that clear. But he basically said that he retrieved a couple of crafts. One was an 8 gon shaped, it had 8 different sides and the other was an egg shaped craft. And he was this helicopter pilot who went through the Air Force combat control pipeline and was then sheep dipped or erased basically from the Special Forces, you know, traditional pipeline and turned into kind of this ghost who was doing extremely sensitive missions for nuclear emergency support and with high value targets and that sort of thing. And that involved UFO crash retrievals. After he came out, he started this organization called Skywatcher. And you were a part of this. And this involved essentially getting people with these psionic predisposition potentials to call in craft and then also calling in the craft with these sort of machine based systems. Is that right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. So here's here to give a little bit more context here too, to kind of wrap this up for people. All of these were experiences in childhood for me. Right and like we started this to like show out. I had no memory of this for a lot of years. So like 20, 23 things completely burned down. Right. I'm having memories of this. Good luck. Right. Who do you call? I think I was a part of this compartmentalized program. Right. There's no, there's no source for you. So I just did my best to find ways to psychologically get myself better without getting labeled schizophrenic, without going off the deep end and without killing myself. I had a suicide attempt, to be completely honest with you, in January of 23, because I cannot speak to the level of disparity of like, wow. You wake up in a matter of two months and remember an entire childhood that you once forgotten. You have rapid records, you know, describing a life that you don't remember. Like, it feels very Jason Borney. But instead you're the main character in

[Interviewer / Host]

Stranger Things, dude, I can only imagine. And I'm so grateful that you're here and you're so good, you know, you're on such a good wavelength and you have such a good trajectory and I don't know how you integrate that amount of traumatic past experience in such a short period of time. Of time. Especially when it, it comes up unprovoked. It's not like you were attempting to

[Jordan Jozak]

like, yeah, I wasn't in the UFO

[Interviewer / Host]

search of like, what's, what's causing my maladies. Oh, I'm gonna, you know, it's just, it's sort of, you know, you were a high stress environment with startups and you had a relationship, you know, end and then.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Michaels]

Damn, man.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, like again, completely guided on this path, you know, as we talk about NHI and everything. Like all of this has really just brought me closer, you know, to my own idea and version and relationship with God. To see all these moments where it's like, wow, it didn't quite make it. But again, to be in a situation today, to be able to articulate this and actually push the needle forward for humanity, not for the military, not for the industrial complex, actually putting the power back in our own hands. Yeah, that's worth living for.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it's amazing. And you should be proud of yourself and.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

So you. So this happens in 23. Yeah, go for it.

[Jordan Jozak]

Where were you? Yeah, so this happens in 23 and it starts a long term healing process. You know, met some amazing people, you know, built some trust along the way, but just like highly independent trans journaling, highly basically ways to Deal with this trauma. And I started just investigating my own past, right? Like, where did this happen? Who are these people? You know, how did this all essentially happen? Happened to me. And that got to getting into 2024, and as people know right at this time, David Grush had stepped out, reported to Congress, and I was essentially looking at like, well, here's the missing piece, right? Like, I experienced it and lived it. And in 2024, after going through just a lot of healing, getting all of the supporting records, evidence, all, everything to kind of just support the credibility in my case, I made contact with Ross Kohlhart and flew down to D.C. met with Ross, you know, did the. You know, followed the same footsteps as many others, right? Did the whole testimony. And it was at that point that Ross introduced me to Jacob Barber. So this was before Jacob Barber had went public. I met him. I think it was like June of 24 or something along those lines. But, yeah, I was developing a relationship with Ross. He was highly, highly supportive and interesting. Introduced me to Jake, and he said, like, hey, here's this guy I've been working with behind the scenes. And at that point, Jake was the first individual that knew what I was talking about that I had, like, truly encountered, because I worked up many channels before this. I was, you know, trying to talk to state police departments. This, this, this. I was talking to other people, you know, ex agency people. And it, like, really speaks to the level of compartmentalization that, like, aspects of the Legacy program have. It's like, it's a far smaller club than most people think. Far smaller club. But I finally made contact with Jake, and, you know, hearing from Jake, you know, essentially, he experienced many similarities. You know, I think just by latitude of being involved in the operations that he was involved with, he was familiar with what I went through, you know, in childhood.

[Interviewer / Host]

He was also gifted in talent education.

[Jordan Jozak]

He was. He was a GATE kid. Yeah. Yeah. I think his. I think his family's highly. Yeah, there's. There's a lot of. There's a lot there. I was in the GATE program as a kid. GATE program is a program. It's an acronym for gifted and Talented education. And that allowed me to do a lot of things. I excelled in art and music, actually, and the sciences, had entered a science contest and won a state science fair based on a project I had done. I won't go into too many details. He can tell his own story. But, yeah, there's some similarities, I think, in many of the GATE people's stories. But I met Jake and Jake introduced me to the Skywatcher cohort, James Fowler. Alex, at the time, and what really struck me was I was in this situation of I'm not really a whistleblower, right? But I'm attempting to try to, to do right. I'm trying to find the right people to get an investigation open. And then you meet these wonderful guys at the top, right, like, pinnacle of special operations community. Like, yeah, we've been doing this for years, right. And that was really what I think a lot of people missed from the Sky Watcher story was they looked at it very surface level, but also there's just a lot of very credible people who have been trying to fight the good fight and get information out. So I elected to kind of join the team and lead the psionic operation. Piece of, really with the principle of if our government is not going to disclose, perhaps we can create the conditions necessary, document that and bring that to science and bring that to the world, so we don't need our governments. Right. Had an amazing time with them. Great people. Worked with some of the best operators that I've ever worked with in my life. But I've actually left the Sky Watcher team last July. And the reason being highly personal for me. But I was just kind of beginning to get the sensation that, that we need less military, honestly. Right. We need less of this kind of like wounded masculine. We're gonna go figure this out. What we actually need is like, the public support. We need the next generation thinkers. We need the next generation industry to begin working on disclosure. We don't need the highly compartmented. I've worked in defense my entire life, and, you know, that's been my trajectory. I just don't see that being the best, like, next chapter for us.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. Also I would say, you know, and, and I'm.

[Jesse Michaels]

I'm always of like a split mind, right? Like the.

[Interviewer / Host]

To the people who are like, there was nothing going on and they weren't provoking any sort of UFOs to appear.

[Jesse Michaels]

I'm like, no, I think they were.

[Interviewer / Host]

I think. I think there. I think a lot of stuff was showing up for them. And then. And then so sort of, you know, got to hold those people at bay. And then on the other side, side, just the idea that you can somehow subsume this ancient sacred practice of communing with these celestial objects, which has gone on since, you know, the days of Iamblichus the Syrian, you know, Neoplatonist or Ezekiel or, you know, whatever you want to date it back to probably before that, right? And you can somehow provoke these things to come and then use them in some instrument mental way to derive material to confer a tactical warfare advantage via an adversary. Just feels like the wrong framework overall. It's like that doesn't feel like if you want, you got. Yeah, you could, you have an infinite range of things you can do with your life. Maybe not an infinite, but a wide range. Maybe, maybe don't do that.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. Like, so, so for example, like from the psionic, you know, portion of this. And I, I lead these experiences for people who want to go interact. Right. It's, it's not, hey, follow this three steps. It's highly heart based. It's like I actually need you to forget everything that you know and I need you to open your heart as you prepare to, you know, embark on this journey to interact with something like nhi. It's not mechanistic, it's, it doesn't fit the military, you know, box very well. Right. So I totally agree with you and I think again, it's just there's truth and there's data and there's things on both sides of the table. A very interesting perspective, without going in too much detail that I can share here is from the sky watcher cohort. The psionic operations. When the psychics were going out, when we were setting up and running a session and actually trying to elicit UAP, we were not successful 100% of the time at eliciting a response. However, every time we did elicit a response, the phenomena was high, highly benign. Right. Like, it was very neutral. It wasn't angry. It was just kind of like floating through, checking out, maybe even exhibiting some like, loving behavior. Right. Like actually investigating on the, you know, mechanistic dog whistle side of the things. Right. It's my understanding, like that was producing a result, you know, nearly 100% of the time, but it would often produce a result that was aggressive. Right. Like as you saw in like episode two. Right. Like flying up to the trailer, like getting highly aggressive probing our response responses. Right. So that kind of points to me that what we put out is also what we're going to get back.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's like a mirror.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

That's so interesting.

[Jordan Jozak]

So highly supportive of again of like, this is why the military should not be leading this conversation.

[Interviewer / Host]

James Fowler on my show is a really fascinating interview. He was talking about, you know, somebody was going to use directed energy or whatever he said. He made it clear that Skywatcher itself didn't use direction directed energy, but somebody was Going to at one point against one of these, like hostile. It's like the jellyfish, UFOs, UAP, which seemed to be particularly aggressive and it just shut down the directed energy before it even went out.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

And so it's like, I, I don't

[Jordan Jozak]

subscribe that the jellyfish are actually like hostile. I think that they're almost like an immune response. Like, you see that class, when you're actually putting out something that's probably not in the best interest interests of the field.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's just your own BS excavated in some sort of outer form. Right. Interesting.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. So again with like reality, the phenomenon reflecting back to us. That's why it's. The more that you try to take this lockdown, materialistic, like militaristic approach, I think that's what you're going to get back.

[Interviewer / Host]

And because, and this is the really messed up part and I, I don't even know how to talk about this, but they use electromagnetic pulse weaponry against these things and then so they're covered with plasma and then they sort of become inert and then they come down. Is that right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Like, yeah, like I'll, I'll be honest with you. The way that I understand this is again, not sky watchers, but the way that I understand legacy UAP crash retrieval operations to work many different styles, right? One style is, let's say they're using psionics, okay. You're going to take psionics, highly developed psychic aptitude. They're going to go set up in the desert, they're going to run their protocols and processes which are probably highly formulated on love, right? And they're probably going to do that in an environment where there's directed energy weapons all around. So you're almost creating this like honey pot of like, hey, we love you, come see us. We want to interact with you. And then let's say that thing interacts. All of a sudden they're hit with a directed energy up and materialized and like then it's recovered. So the real sad part of this where like Ross Coltheart I think talked about this a little bit already, like Area 52, is that how everything happens? No, but I do have awareness that yeah, like many crash retrieval operations have like operated that way.

[Interviewer / Host]

And then in the book Sentinels of Ether that Jake put out, it's like, so they recover material and then there's a mental interface as far as the reverse engineered craft as well. Like, getting that to fly requires the psionic assets to lock in again on the ground. And then it gets Those to fly.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, it's. The world gets very abstract and like very complex at that point.

[Interviewer / Host]

Are you. Are you high confidence in that part or just like the ability for the thing to show up or.

[Jordan Jozak]

I'm high confidence in the fact that that crash retrieval operations have shot many things with directed energy weapons.

[Interviewer / Host]

Jesus Christ. And if your consciousness is locked in as the psionic asset to the craft and that craft is getting shot, that must be a traumatic feeling.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. So I experienced this. I won't go into details like when, where, or anything like that, but at one point in my own personal history, right, I experienced this. I was interacting with the first phenomena. My consciousness was co creating, co piloting and whatever kind of manifestation of the phenomenon that was showing up. Right. And halfway through the process, as I was communicating with other people kind of demonstrating this, I felt something go wrong that I've never felt before. The way that I could kind of explain it is it felt as if my body was actually turned. Didn't feel like I was getting electrocuted. It felt as if the thing that I was connected to consciously as well as my body was immediately turning into stone. And there was like an emergency I felt, to get my consciousness out of this thing and back to my body because it felt like if I stayed that the conduit, right, this like unseen consciousness connection was going to be, like, severed. And there was almost a, you know, ability for me to get stuck in this thing. Right. If I didn't return back to my body. And from what I understand, the area that I was running that exercise in happened to have directed energy weapons, you know, naturally near it. So chances are something got brought in, detected on radar, and like, naturally it's looked at as an adversarial threat. So, yeah, I mean, I'm very grateful to be alive and unscathed from that experience. But like, yeah, there's.

[Interviewer / Host]

Did you experience any sort of physiological damage from. From that or.

[Jordan Jozak]

No, no, not gonna. I mean, pain, you know, pain. But no, not that I'm aware of.

[Interviewer / Host]

Like, if you were to characterize that pain, was it like a. Like it was like a soul pain or was it a. Was it a physical pain?

[Jordan Jozak]

Physical soul, again, imagine your body turned into stone is the best. Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

That is so gnarly.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. And again. Right. I'm not. One thing we didn't even kind of get into here, right, Is like people's perspective and underlying background on the phenomena is like, oh, it's extraterrestrial. It's like, well, hold on a second. Go Back to that initial analogy that I kind of provided where it's the story's been it's materialistic universe, Earth physicists, again, I think we live in a field, right? And I think that all these dimensions are stacked with us and essentially like everything is right here right now. And it's actually our level of consciousness and awareness and what we perceive perceive that gives us the experience. So it's like very possible. Is this extraterrestrial? I don't know, Maybe. Maybe that's a portion of it. I subscribe more that it's like interdimensional, right? So perhaps there's an intelligence or an awareness that's actually fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh dimension. It's evolved away from the point of needing an ego id. For those that aren't familiar with that, like looking at neuroscience, it doesn't need an ego id, doesn't need a body. Maybe it exists as this ethereal thought form, but it's actually an awareness and intelligence and it can interact with the third dimension. And it interacts by materializing a portion of itself here, right? And maybe that's what we're seeing, you know, from the UAP side. I don't think that's all of it, but I think that's a portion. So it's like there's extraterrestrial, there's interdimensional, there's also, what if it's us? Like, I'm not completely sold on this either. And I'll point to a lot of experiments with plasma, right? Like even that Esalen event that I described when we had 30 people, highly heart centric, we had these incredible interactions with plasma orbs, right? But I'm not completely convinced that like, that could not be an extension of human consciousness materializing itself too, right? So it's like it's not just one size fits all. It's not as simple as like, hey, there's aliens. I think we all want this to be simple. I think again, the real work in understanding the phenomena is going to be in how we understand consciousness and understanding awareness and what forms consciousness and awareness can take on.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's likely not the thing that we are hearing in the narrative that we're superimposing on. It's likely much weirder than that. And it could be a whole host of disparate threads. But on the plasma front, there's a great book called the New Science of Heaven by really just polymathic brilliant guy named Robert Temple that I've been reading. And it's all about how atomic matter Physical matter is actually the exception to the rule and that the universe itself is mostly plasma. And you have these Kordalovsky clouds and you even have these experiments being done where it seems like these plasmoids are cohering to heartbeats when a human walks up to them. And we have a mutual friend named Adam Curry who does a lot of experimentation in this area as well. It's really phenomenal. So who are we to say? It's almost. You have to think about this thought, thought experiment. How many of the millions of species on Earth think that they are at the top of the food chain? Probably a decent amount. Unless you're constantly seeing your apex level predator that's freaking you out. A lot of them probably do and in some cases they might think, oh, they might kill me or whatever, but they're dumb, you know what I mean? So how many? So who are we to say that we're at the top? And then there's always an epistemic cap that you have, there's an umvelt that you're a perceptive lens that you're seeing the world through and that's always going to be capped. So like, and then I just interviewed an MIT neuroscientist or MIT trained neuroscientist at UC Irvine. His name is Don Hoffman and his whole thing is consciousness is actually more like disembodiment is more adaptive for consciousness.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

So anyways, completely agree with you.

[Jordan Jozak]

I completely agree with you. Yeah, like the, the, the next generation of this. Like oh, where do we go post disclosure.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Jordan Jozak]

Well it's like, well yeah, on one hand, you know, the narrative up to this point has kind of been like bad government, doing bad things. Like of course, right. Like yeah, there needs to be, you know, some level of, of justice and research. But you know, like I don't think the next phase is like, hey, we're going to be looking really far out to other planets and we're going to repeat what SETI has done for like a thousand these years. I think the real answer is like inside us. I think the answer is intrinsic. I think that the more that we actually understand how our own intelligence operates, the more we'll actually understand these disparate threads that just haven't been connected yet. I also think the more we look to past to the past, the better off we're going to be too. Because you can look at ancient rites of passages, you can look at hermetic wisdom, you can look at all of these ancient things we've lost love to kind of like, keep to the side. But if you're willing to like open the thread, you realize that it's like the path to ascension. Different consciousness, different awarenesses, different intelligences. All of this has been documented for thousands and thousands of years.

[Jesse Michaels]

You said something to me off air that blew my mind because I always, you know, obviously I systematically look at UFO stuff and I'm always trying to

[Interviewer / Host]

figure out are these physical objects, are they, you know, mental?

[Jesse Michaels]

You know, I'm pretty convinced that like the thread that you're on is correct,

[Interviewer / Host]

that like there's some sort of mental thing you call them into your, your field.

[Jesse Michaels]

You said something so interesting to me, which is that the like directed energy that hits them creates a local electric field that almost calls the UFOs into physical form. Is that roughly right or.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, I, I don't. Again, this is not my domain, right? This is just like my ext. Extrapolated understanding of like trying to view the perspective of what has happened. Right? And like some of these scenarios that we talked about yesterday and it's that like perhaps think of a UAP or UFO as more of like a manifestation, right? It's like imprinted in this reality. And we took that model that we talked about yesterday of like perhaps an interdimensional, right. Intelligence or aspect of awareness maybe in that seventh dimension, right? It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to come, you know, interact in the third dimension in this moment of time and I'm going to, you know, perhaps project and manifest my awareness here. That awareness takes on a certain form. That awareness could take on a plasma worm, that could take on a craft, could take on whatever, right? And from that projection, something like directed energy may actually like force that to materialize and almost become like a dense portion of this dimension that we're in, right? It's not that like, hey, that allows it to take form. What I'm really saying is what may have been happening in some of these scenarios is like this is a trans dimensional object that doesn't necessarily belong here, but by hitting it with something like directed energy, you're forcing it to take form and become bound to this dimension.

[Interviewer / Host]

Have you heard of Eric Wargo? He wrote a book called Time Loops.

[Jordan Jozak]

No.

[Jesse Michaels]

He's amazing.

[Interviewer / Host]

He talks about the soul self as

[Jesse Michaels]

being like, he calls it the long body. And it's like there's some sort of quantum self that's like maybe like a

[Interviewer / Host]

tesseract or something and that is ported into the human body.

[Jesse Michaels]

And there is this burgeoning field of

[Interviewer / Host]

quantum Biology, you know, even going back

[Jesse Michaels]

to 1944, I believe Schrodinger himself, who's

[Interviewer / Host]

like the father of, you know, quantum

[Jesse Michaels]

wave function, a lot of quantum mechanics, he had a lecture series called why is Life? And he talked about these aperiodic receiver crystals in the DNA.

[Interviewer / Host]

And so you have to wonder, are we tethered to something higher?

[Jesse Michaels]

And Wargo presents this really interesting model where in quantum computations you can reverse qubit positions. And so basically even people who are

[Interviewer / Host]

serious working on quantum computers, or probably more in the quantum mechanics interpretation world,

[Jesse Michaels]

think that maybe on the application layer of a working quantum computer, which we don't have because chips and keeping them cryonically cooled or whatever, cryogenically cooled is the bottleneck when we get that maybe you could send information of a future knowledge or memory state back in time. And so then if you get into again, I don't know know if this is, you know, fully verified, but like the Roger Penrose Hammeroff, you know, tubulin of the microtubules or whatever or something like it in the brain where you

[Interviewer / Host]

have some sort of quantum room temperature

[Jesse Michaels]

quantum system, then your future knowledge state could send stuff back in time. And if you think about presentiment, like what do we have these precocious pre memories of, you know, the things that we haven't, intuitions that are gonna happen. And it's like you wake up, you have a dream about the thing. It's often the most important thing and the most important as far as you know, it being adaptive, adaptive for your survival and your evolution. So like, you know, losing a loved one or like, you know, something dangerous that could happen to you or whatever, you know, these are the things that get downloaded. And you know, I think we're gonna end up with this consciousness, consciousness model where you're like a measurement system and it's like you're like the stylus on an LP player and you're picking the

[Jordan Jozak]

tracks or something at a just very loose level. Right. I subscribe to this conceptually and this kind of mirrors back the idea of time. It's almost as if every aspect of experience, experience already exists in some form. If you went right or left, if you decided to do the show or didn't do the show, it's in that core present moment that you as the awareness get to decide. So it's kind of like reality is almost this, like you get to chart your own path. Perhaps there are these predetermined, like you have to get here, you have to make XYZ decision. Everything's accessible to you. But you only have these choices with you in the present moment. But they've actually already all happened or they already could happen. And you as the core part of awareness, get to experience it now through your decision making, right? And the idea like, hey, maybe in the future, right, of like what we perceive as linear time, right? Like you ended up in a position where it's like, this isn't the right way. Perhaps there is just this kind of quantum feedback loop where maybe in the present moment, now before you make that decision, you start getting single synchronicities that force you to take a different decision. Maybe all of this is this giant

[Interviewer / Host]

feedback loop not to move from such a transcendent message to a more banal subject. But I think a lot of people are left in suspense around this experience that you had. So we're kind of weaving in and out, but I love it. So you had this two year experience at this center and it's victory on based Baker center. And what happened. So are there any experiments that we're missing, first off?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, there's many. There's many. And what I'll add to people here, right, is like, you know, from a psychological basis is like I have a high level of dissociation over that experience. And it's taking me years, right, to be able to have the recall and the integration that I do have outside of the dissociation. There were all sorts of substances that I was. I was essentially an experiment, right? Stuff that I don't even know, you know, stuff I still wonder, like, hey, I had cancer at a young age. Like, I wonder if there's a connection there, right?

[Interviewer / Host]

I wonder, man.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, you know, it's just kind of shitty to think about, for lack of a better word. But anyways, yeah, two years I was there. The real pinnacle of this was again, it was development. So I was in a track and the next iteration that was told to me when I was there in the school was that I was going to leave this little facility that I would spent the two years in and I was going to be enrolled in Park A boarding school. So I was going to leave my parents after all. I was going to go to a facility in eastern New York and I was going to live there full time and I was going to get to do this stuff all the time. And I'm pretty sure that would have been the point that I just disappear from human society and probably get thrown in the underground bunker, right, by the grace of God. At the same time, getting into 2010 and this is just for some great people. This is some great investigation work. Ross Coulthardt has done a lot on this to piece this back together. But in 2010, my home, school district, right, that little hometown of Springville, by grace of my mother, by grace of myself, finally like petitioned the state of New York to come and look in at this facility. And apparently for five months, the record or something goes, Baker Victory Services was refusing access to the state to come in and inspect me. Right, which you would do if you're an intelligence agency or a defense contractor, like you have control of your for everything. Well, that got to the point where they were gonna run a state audit, like on the whole thing, and they didn't want that to happen. So I was hastily returned in like September of 2010 back to my home school district, kicked out of the program. And like I said, I was on like 12 antipsychotics. There was a cover basically point up to this time that I was severely mentally unwell and that's what was justified my placement there for two years. So like within 30 days all this craziness stops. I get thrown back into my home so school district. And I just do everything in my power to forget this ever happened because I, I went up against what it felt like was the beast. Like the, these people masqueraded as school, they masqueraded as my friends. Who do I trust? I'm just never going to talk about this and I hope to God I live a normal life. And that worked. Within one year, all of my medications were released. I was released from every single psychological diagnoses. I was just magically cleared in one year. Right. And it just all disappeared. It just all disappeared. Yeah, major, major fall through the clacks, you know, level of roadblocks. But also, again, this is like high level exploitation from the best of the best, you know, like an intelligence agency. Right. This is how they would masquerade the system.

[Interviewer / Host]

And is it like 400 plus lawsuits were, you know, thrown against Victory Baker Services, is that right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They. It's no longer an oper. It has been sued so many times, not by myself, but just by other people reporting sexual abuse claims that they had to close the facility.

[Jesse Michaels]

Do you have any sense of the

[Interviewer / Host]

contractors or the agencies that were working there?

[Jordan Jozak]

I don't want to go into too many details about that, but I will gladly point the audience to where I think, like, if you want to look at legacy program stuff, I'd look at Mitre.

[Interviewer / Host]

Mitre Corporation. Yeah, they're federally Funded Research and Development Center. And it's interesting, Eric Burleson, you know, Congressman from Missouri, who's really been a champion of ufo, UAP disclosure, he is now basically demanding that MITRE open up all their records regarding involvement with this sort of subject. And so that'll be. That'll be very interesting. I think he sent them something saying, you have 45 days or something like that.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. Again, what's interesting is, like, my whole track that I experience as an individual is like, I love the fact that there's Burleson doing this. I love. I love the fact that there's still so many good people trying to fight the good fight using the mechanisms of government that we have today. My experience was like, they all failed. They failed me as a kid. They still failed me now as we've tried to look, right? So I'm far more interested in. At the same level, people are looking backwards and trying to get justice and get right. We also need a cohort of people who are looking forward that are saying, saying, like, I'm not worried about what bad Mitre did. I'm worried about what was Mitre doing? What do they know? And how can we bring that out in the public light right now?

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, totally.

[Jordan Jozak]

Where is that, you know, transcendence going to happen? And I hope that, you know, just from like, what I'm creating, what others are creating in the space, that, like, a whole new renaissance can emerge right now.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, Mitre's weird. I mean, they used to hold, like, gravity conferences. And, you know, Ning Li was last, you know, split, speaking at a Meijer conference before she kind of went into the black and she was doing anti gravity experiments. And so it's. Yeah, the first order thing is. Right, like, wait, you know, this is. This is totally messed up. Like, you guys have committed crimes. The second order thing is, like, you're concealing stuff that could just change humanity and make, like, the world, like, way, way better. So, like, let that out, you know, at the very least, let that out, you know.

[Jordan Jozak]

Well, here's the thing. I don't know if they will.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Jordan Jozak]

Like, let's look at the track record, you know, at this point, it's just going to be another 20 years of just, like, fighting with the mechanisms. And again, back to the earlier point is like, we don't need it. We don't need government. We don't need the people who've done this wrongly. We need the next cohort of individuals and organizations and industry that are willing to say, like, there is a Whole new unlock in the way that we understand ourselves in the universe at our fingertips, if we're willing to look.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, and it's almost the tech you're describing isn't insane. You know, EEGs and brain mapping and then getting into a subconscious state. It's like this stuff was written about, like, years ago. It's silva mind control, all these sorts of things, you know, so it's. That's not the super complicated. It's actually just being open to the fact that your consciousness has an impact on the material world. So that's. That's actually the limiting factor. It's so interesting to hear your story because it dovetails with so many other stories that I've encountered. Like, you know, Dan Sherman is this guy who went on my show who wrote a book called Above Black. And he was, you know, Air Force Electronics Intelligence. He went to, I believe it was supposed to be. It was in Maryland, and maybe it was Fort Meade, where he was going to do some, you know, continuing education. And then he got taken to this NSA complex and he was given these headphones, told to take these pills, and then was told to lock onto a sine wave and flatten the sine wave.

[Jordan Jozak]

I could definitely affect the motion and I could do it just at will.

[Interviewer / Host]

Have you ever experienced anything like that?

[Jordan Jozak]

I know exactly what he's talking about.

[Interviewer / Host]

Okay.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, we had different terms like square the circle, things like that. But probably, who knows if he was actually looking at a real sine wave or was he looking at something that just like, visually looked, you know, behaved as a sine wave. What was the underlying signal?

[Interviewer / Host]

It could have visually just looked like a sine wave. And then I don't know if the binaural beats actually match that. But he, he said that that got him into a state where he could communicate with extraterrestrials. And the way he was briefed, it was called Project Preserve Destiny. They said that his. His mother, while she was pregnant, was abducted by aliens and genetically altered. He was genetically altered as a fetus in her womb to have more of a psychic predisposition potential for communicating with these extraterrestrial or non human intelligence.

[Jordan Jozak]

There is something there. And props to him for sharing what is a very vulnerable aspect of that, because that just sounds bonkers to a lot of people. But there is certainly some genetic aspects to psychic potentials, you know, like rare blood types, you know, like, I'm a rhesus negative. I know we've talked about that.

[Interviewer / Host]

Rh negative.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. Whether. Whether there's a Correlation or not is like highly, highly, you know, disputed.

[Interviewer / Host]

But like a lot of people with that blood type, they say, you know, the veil's a little thinner for me. A little more clairvoyant, you know.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, maybe one of many, if anything. I don't think it's. It's probably that easy. You know, maybe there are some genetic carriers that, like, deep down, I think there's certainly a there there. But in reality, I think we all possess an underlying amount of this ability, you know, to perceive extra sensory information. I think maybe some individuals just perhaps have like a higher ceiling.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Jordan Jozak]

Than others.

[Interviewer / Host]

Well, a very high up person in government who I won't out because I don't think he wants to be outed, but basically corroborated Sherman's story. And so, you know, unfortunately, I hate saying anonymous source, but, you know, take that with a grain of salt if you want. And he has this DD214 and he. Even in his book, he didn't mention one of the bases. And then we figured out one of the bases, it was in southern Italy. And because he took a photo of it in his book and you didn't have the Internet back then, so you couldn't reverse image search. And I called him out on it, it was San Vito de Normani or something. And he was like, yep, that was the base. And then the other base was off it, you know, I think in Nebraska. And so his story kind of checks. And then another, you know, electronics intelligence guy named Dan Hogg, who I believe worked for the Director of National Intelligence and, you know, has a long history in government. It's basically like all of the electronics intelligence stuff he's saying seems totally legit. And he's just a super normal cool guy. So it's so wild to me. And then this is what it cuts to the core of the matter, because

[Jesse Michaels]

all this stuff is hidden in plain sight.

[Jordan Jozak]

That's the big key. Right. And that's what I tell everyone in my story. Right. It's plausible. Deniability is key. It is not grandiose. It's like if you want to hide something, you blend it in for somebody

[Interviewer / Host]

their day job was going to the Victory Baker Services Center. And that you say this, you know, in a great blog post you wrote,

[Jesse Michaels]

they would go to the Starbucks around

[Interviewer / Host]

the corner or whatever and talk casually about their job, which is recruiting for this UFO covert program.

[Jordan Jozak]

It's not like some crazy dark, I think, like all the conspiratorial, you know, just imaginations, you know, out there have kind of created the stigma of. It's like highly secret. It's like actually it's highly secret certainly, but it's hidden in plain sight. It's not compartmented like you'd think it's going to operate through channels that you know, carry and allow plausible deniability. Right. Are you going to question if the Air Force is setting up a road perimeter or would you question if the local police department are there less? Right. Like you're going to flow through the channels that you can. You're not going to make yourself a target.

[Interviewer / Host]

100%. And Ross Colthard is a, a really hard nosed good journalist who really vets, you know, his sources and you know, I'm sure he went very deep with you. You also mentioned Odyssey Systems. Is that something that he uncovered or you uncovered in this?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, there, there's certainly some connections there. You know, whether the exact contractor personnel or not were Odyssey Systems is like highly debated. I think some of the underlying like tech platforms that were being used just in terms of like data management, Rodyssey Systems. But I believe that there's quite a bit that points to mitre.

[Interviewer / Host]

My understanding, it's so fascinating. Yeah. Have you heard of Andrej Puharich by any chance?

[Jordan Jozak]

Puharic? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And highly synonymous. You know, I kind of look at Buharic as like he, he likely championed the earlier iteration of research that I later experienced, you know, in the program a lot of the same similar similarities. His ideal space kids right. In upstate New York. Upstate New York, nonetheless. Yeah, there's quite a few similarities there.

[Interviewer / Host]

Upstate New York, you had them channeling things in Faraday cages and non human intelligence and they were often very high PSI power, very clairvoyant. Just really fascinating. And you have to wonder, I think the GATE program was started by Sidney Marland in 1972 and this was before for the church committee. And so this is before a lot of the malfeasance around MK Ultra, CIA mind control. That sort of stuff was kind of excavated by Frank Church and Congress and the civilian world. And I wonder if it was formed somewhat with the intent of funneling in kids who have psionic predisposition potential or whatever to these programs.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. The way that I typically say this to people is like GATE itself is, is benign. Right. By all regards, at least in my consideration, it's that there has been a different entity that is utilizing GATE behind the scenes to find a pre selected pool of people and pull them into the programs. Because GATE itself does great things. Right. Like it pushes people to stem. There's. There's a lot of benefits that are not, you know, crazy conspiratorial UAP thing. It's more that there is an element that is looking at the pool of gain gate people and plucking from them. Right. So like gate is kind of used as this just general identifier and funnel. It itself is not bad, but there's someone else in there.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah.

[Jordan Jozak]

And pulling from it.

[Jesse Michaels]

What's your theory on.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you have like a consciousness theory, which, I mean, it's. It's like the hardest thing to sort of make falsifiable. Right. It's hard to understand the causal mechanism of the random event generators. What's causing wave function collapse or, you know, even wave function collapse. Collapse might be a poor way of putting it, but a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics or even the Copenhagen interpretation, it's like we observe the wave function and it collapses.

[Jesse Michaels]

What does that mean?

[Interviewer / Host]

And how do we know that it's just particles kind of independent of us, or waves, rather, turning into discrete particles independent of the observer. Literally, it's unfalsifiable. There's no way to argue that the superposition doesn't exist in the quantum. Quantum detector. And it's not the quantum detector, you know, causing the collapse. Like the observer could be caught and all these people.

[Jordan Jozak]

How far do you want to go back on, like the observational metrics? Yeah, it's just like, how do you keep. Well, that's the problem. That's your deal with the awareness, Right. Like, you almost can't. Right. That's where you can kind of get back to the point of like, you can't take out observation. You can't take out awareness.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's complete. You can't remove it. Even in sort of the delayed choice experiment or even in like, you know, just basic quantum mechanics, you choose to make the measurement and then collapsing the wave function.

[Jordan Jozak]

So like, let's like totally back up for a moment and I'll use a little bit of this example, like the. The story as we know it, right? Here we are as humans having this conversation. You know, most of us have been told something, you know, along these lines. That we live in a materialistic universe, right? That Earth is essentially a rock. It is orbiting the sun, right? We live in this material rocky solar system. We live on it. We're humans. We're kind of this happy accident. Our brains just happen to be producing this thing of consciousness local. And you live and die. You know, it's pretty sad when you really Think about that. You know, my experience was being taught, trained, and having experiences that validate this, that we don't necessarily live in a materialistic world. We live in something a lot more akin to a field, right, that is taking on a materialistic form as we interact with it, but the underlying substrate is not fixed. It's not rock. It's actually something far more reflective than that. And consciousness and awareness is the in between that can see both worlds, that can interact with both worlds and actually exert effects on both worlds. So you begin to see the world, not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our current level of consciousness.

[Interviewer / Host]

How do synchronicities work?

[Jordan Jozak]

I don't know. You know, it's. Gosh, yeah, let's talk about time, huh? Yeah. Interestingly, I think, you know, for people aren't familiar like synchronicities, right? Like, number one, I think they're highly personal. I think they're highly, highly, highly personal. And I think, you know, if you subscribe to a version of the universe where, you know, whether through dimensions or something else, like, maybe there's a concept of your higher self, right? There's a consciousness up and beyond this body that maybe is steering you, or like, hey, you have two options, right or left. But if we give you the synchronicity, a little sense of deja vu, maybe you get highly reflective in that moment and almost change the outcome, right? So I think of, like, synchronicities almost as, like, this communication between a higher version of yourself or a version of yourself, perhaps in a different timeline that's allowing you to critique your experience here.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, it's a little wink or a nudge in the right direction or something. It also feels like it's kind of exemplifying maybe a reduction in entropy. So if you think of time, it's hard to define time without defining it with respect to oscillations of an electromagnetic wave or the movement of macroscopic bodies. And time really doesn't exist, exist without separation. Like if, you know, pre Big Bang, you can think of. The world at rest is entirely timeless. And so time has to be between two objects or it has to involve movement. There's nothing fundamental about. And so because it's the most used noun, and because it's undefinable without respect to those things, it feels like this soup that we're swimming in that's, like, impossible. To get of. Out outside of. And so the. The synchronicity thing is like. I don't know. I don't. I don't know how you. Yeah, I'm sort of going full schizo here.

[Jordan Jozak]

No, I love it. This is the fun part. I. I'm. I'm with you. I. I think just to untangle the two, like. Yes, synchronicities, you know, the causal mechanism. I'm not sure how I look at them as my own life. You know, as I look at them as, like, little beacons of, like, guiding. You know, maybe it's like. Like either a. Whoa. The clock's three, three, three. Like, let me just think for a moment. What am I doing in this moment? What am I thinking? Should I think more critically here? Right. Or, you know, maybe their encouragement that you're on the right path. Right. It's kind of like what you make of them. But for me, it's like, I look at as, like, highly personal. Right. More of like a guiding factor, but, like, getting back into, like, time. Right. And like, kind of like untangling the two is like. I think largely our current understanding of space. Time is going to change the more that we really look into awareness and consciousness. I'm not convinced that it, like the static measure of the universe or a law of nature as we know it. I think it's far more reflexive. I think depending on localized environments, it's highly changing. I think the awareness or the observer perhaps may actually have an influence on time or maybe the flow of time, too.

[Interviewer / Host]

I think so, too. And before mechanical clocks, time was only embodied and it was talked about in malleable ways. And so time freezing wasn't like, oh, it's a felt sense of time freezing. It was actually maybe freezing. You know, especially if. Yeah, go for it.

[Jordan Jozak]

I was just going to say, like, this gets more interesting, too, as you think about the technological age that we're in. The more that we measure and observe. Right. The more I wonder if we're actually constraining ourselves a little bit. Right? Because, like, if you was back in the 1600s, things are very magical. We're figuring out how consciousness and awareness has the ability to influence things. You can direct your experience from it. So, like, hey, if you ran off into the woods and you're like, I want to go find someplace magical, maybe that manifests and materializes because there's no one else watching. You're in a quantumly unentangled state, and you, like, actually travel there. Right. But now that we're in this localized environment. Where we're watching and measuring and limiting everything. Perhaps that's actually having a constrictive aspect on reality. Where it's like, oh, you can't just. Your range of options are limiting. Because now there has to be this connection point that makes sense. This observer, that observer and that observer. It's no longer just you and the universe that's embodied. It's all of these other mechanisms in between.

[Interviewer / Host]

You have all these things being snapped to grid. Instead of, like, staying in this possibility space, this superpositionality. Yeah, it's so fascinating, you know. Well, Rudolf Steiners, this great Austrian philosopher. Who, you know, I'm a big fan of. And he wrote a book called Goethe's Theory of Knowledge. Goethe, you know, obviously the German, you know, poet polymath from 18th century, you know, 100 years before Steiner was writing. And Goethe went to Strasbourg Cathedral. And Strasbourg was this sort of, you know, Gothic cathedral. That was seen as way too ornate and chaotic for that time. Which was, you know, more about kind of, you know, sparse functionality. And it was, you know, heavily criticized. And he experienced this merging with the cathedral. And it was this sort of very important thing. Thing in his life. And he then predicted that the next epistemological paradigm shift. Would be cognition by identification. So instead of cognition through this observer observed separation, this duality. It would be like you would embody the thing that you're trying to understand. You wouldn't study it from a distance, from afar. And that seems awfully like a lot of these techniques. Techniques you were, you know, being told to do in this covert Baker Victory Services program. Right?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah. You become it. Right. You embody it. You become it. Or, like, even in the extreme cases that I was doing, right. It's like there's an aspect of disembodiment and then re. Embodiment right into the opposite of the thing. But I think, like, in Rudolph. In Rudolph's kind of thinking here, too. It's not necessarily like. That's a very almost materialistic aspect of what I was doing. It's like, I'm leaving my body. I'm getting into another object to take it on. I think, like, that can just be applied at so many levels of life. Like, it can also be applied to, like, your own cognition of yourself. Right. Like, I. What comes up for me is, you know, I kind of think back to this too. It's just like, become who you want to become. Fake it till you make it works for a reason. Right? Because you're embodying something that's already there and then your reality is kind of conforming around you for that. So there's a lot more wisdom in there that meets the surface for sure.

[Interviewer / Host]

And then you just have have to do it, fake it till you make it works. If the faking it exists on a real subconscious level like you have like sub intentions. So there's something to the secret and to all these sort of manifesting practices. And then it feels like some people are like running on ice, they're running in place or whatever and they clearly have all sorts of sub intentions that are very self sabotagy and they don't quite actually translate and work. And so you have to get deeper into that, the substrate and you know that that seems really hard and maybe you can do it with some brain mapping, biofeedback techniques but I don't know if we have a pure science of that. You know, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Jozak]

And I don't, I don't think that like you know, even again with like next level consciousness, next level psi, like I, I personally like even on this journey like I've gotten MRIs, you know and a few things stand out I think like you know, Gary Nolan's done some really great research. Like I have a very unique caudate and putamin. There's a lot of white matter going on there. Yep, yep, there's certainly a correlation.

[Interviewer / Host]

But I, so, but real quick I wanted because the audience. So Gary Nolan, Stanford professor, tenured microbiologist, he's doing all these studies that on the caudate, nucleus and putamen, this is this part of the basal ganglia and if that's very neuronally dense, the person seems to have high size, high powers, high sort of mind over matter ability and then also seems to encounter more sort of uap, UFO stuff. And so you got an MRI and you have.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, I have a very high level striation. Right. So essentially to sell my mri, like in the kadi and the putamin there's a high level of these white matter stripes. Right. However, I don't think that's it. Like I think what we're going to find is the more that we look for physiological markers, you know, like the answer for consciousness is not looking at the materialistic aspect, don't look at the physiological symptoms. I don't think that's what we're going to find it. I think we're going to find a lot more about actually going in the intrinsic, you know, whether that be the metaphysical, the, the, the woo woo, spiritual, the the quantum observational.

[Interviewer / Host]

Right.

[Jordan Jozak]

Like however, whatever glasses you want to put in or put on to wear to better understand this, use them. They're all the same thing.

[Interviewer / Host]

Also, if this is some sort of simulation or computation or something, if you find the infinite money making machine, you figure out some sort of causal physical mechanism for psychic powers or whatever. Do you think that if there's any sort of intentionality behind the game that you're being, that you're playing? Do you not think that the person or the entity or God or whatever would change the source code on you? You're not going to figure out the one thing that allows you to hack the entire game.

[Jordan Jozak]

This is like the right hand path versus the left hand path. Right. Where there's always been. You think of like the crazy scientist who's like, I want to take psy and I'm going to figure out the mechanisms and predict the world. Right. And it's all going to be for me. Well, it's like that always ends in disaster. That's ended in disaster for every, you know, imperialist emperor, et cetera. Like it doesn't have to just have to be science. Science. Right. Like that's the left hand path. The right hand path of like, wow, there's something here. If we actually work on the understanding, the embodiment and you know, the progress, progression of it, maybe from a collective measure outside of the self, then it seems to scale with you. Right. And you get like compounding effects. And I think like up until this point, like this has been the story of disclosure. There's been a highly finite amount of people in the left hand path that know information that you haven't been allowed to know. Right now, for the first time in history, the right hand path is opening up. So the more that we collectively actually work together, I think the more that we get, you know, both individually and collectively.

[Interviewer / Host]

Agreed. Yeah. Whether it's Lord of the Rings or Prometheus or Faust or all of these legends end the same way and it's not good.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

If you try to use the sacred thing, I think there's even a line in the Old Testament about this where if you try to like turn any of the sacred stuff into a business, like it always backfires, always will backfire. And so just don't try to like, you know, beat the thing into submission, go into it non coercively, not for any sort of instrumental use. And just if, if you're curious and you want, you know, your own growth and ascension, great. But otherwise, you know, there's A, there's

[Jordan Jozak]

a delicate dance there, right? It's like threading the needle, right? Because we live in this capitalistic society and like, well, you have to make money, right? And I think there's a lot of people you can just look at, you know, people who are very advanced spiritually. They like want to share gifts, gives to humanity. Like always the roadblock is like, well, how do you make money and support yourself with it too, right? So it's like there's a very fine line. I don't know if it's like the answer is just don't make money, but I think it's like, have the right intentionality between how you're making your money.

[Interviewer / Host]

What do you think when you're communing with these orbs and UFOs that sort of show up? What do you think they are? You went through some of the thinking and theories, you know, earlier, but like, I guess may maybe because, you know,

[Jesse Michaels]

we're grasping at straws on theories. What is it? What does it feel like?

[Jordan Jozak]

Every time it's a little bit different, right? Every time it's a little bit different. And we covered the theories, right? Like one, could be extraterrestrial. Two, I subscribe to more dimensional interdimensional, you know, three, could be us, right? Like a mirror back, right? It could be all of these things at once. But in terms of like, what does it feel like, right. For me, it's highly. I almost feel it hemispherically, right? So like let's say there's an orb or I'll kind of recreate the Esalen experience for you for those that have kind of heard that, right. So what that looked like is I took a group of about 30 people. We had a highly dedicated like track list that I produced, like specific binaural beats, specific frequencies were outside. And it beautiful setting. And I'm giving people instructions on just how to ground themselves. Like basic meditative tools. I give them a visualization exercise. So they're visualizing when we actually begin this experience. And then everyone starts the same track list at the same time. So we're all synchronized. So imagine a 30 minute playlist. You're all listening at the same time. And when you're all synchronized like that, you almost create this like group coherence, right? Super interesting things happen with RNGs in this environment too. Which I just will say as like an environmental sensor of what's happening environmentally. Something's happening, right? RNGs will shift sigmas, there's other environmental sigmas. So again, like there's a whole chapter of research of, like, consciousness in relation to the environment. Not just nhi that has not been looked at yet. NHI is almost the byproduct of what happens in, like, a field environment like this, right?

[Interviewer / Host]

That feels right because when you talk to the remote viewers who are systematically trained at, like, getting into these heightened states, it almost feels like UFOs and alien aliens and all these things, they're like an incidental byproduct of everything else. And they're so casual to like their environment. They're like, oh, we. We looked into this ET Base or whatever, and it's like. And it's so. It's like, so not a thing for them because they have, like, an expanded scope of reality. But anyway, so keep going.

[Jordan Jozak]

No, you're totally right. You're totally right. Yeah. That's again, where I really hope it's not just, we need finite lab conditions. This is like what happens when you start bringing. Bringing everyone together, right? And a shared meditation, a shared synchronized setting. What environmental signals can you look at? What's changing, right? And now change the conditions, like, task the people in the group differently. What changes in the environmental conditions? Like, there's so much yet to be discovered right in front of us that we haven't looked into yet. But to answer your question specifically, right, like, we're doing a shared visualization. Everyone's listening to the same track list the same time. It's high. We synchronized. I have an ability to get out of my body, right? And kind of visualize my surroundings out of body. And when something like an orb, right, or manifestational phenomena showing up for me somatically, I actually feel this, like, spinning or correlation between my hemispheres. It's like as if you took my right and left hemisphere, my brain and my skull, and it's like they began oscillating at different speeds and different, different tempos. And it's almost like the higher they speed up or the higher the vibration, the closer the phenomena or the manifestation is that I'm actually interacting with. And then sometimes it's telepathy through voice, sometimes it's telepathy through words. What is actually the better question to ask here? It's not how I experience it. It's that every single human, every person, every psychic, right, experiences it differently. And it depends more so on their cognition platform, right? So if you're, again, if you're a kinesthetic person, how you experience the phenomena is going to be kinesthetic. If you're looking at information, very auditory like you hear things, you're going to experience auditory telepathy, right. If you're visual like me, you might experience things very visual. You see it in your mind's eye. You're interacting with the orb and it's distantly away. Right. All of them can be true. It depends more on us is the receiver and how we process the info.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's interesting that you experienced the synchronization of hemispheres. I believe in 85 or 86 there's a CIA document that's now been, you know, the Freedom of Information act has been used against it. And it's all about this hemisync technique that Robert Monroe in Virginia, this consciousness researcher kind of pioneered. Now you have the Monroe Institute there and it's all about using these binaural beats that are slightly off so the brain entrains them to synchronize synchronized. And then through the entrainment you get this synchronization of the whole brain and then you experience all sorts of amazing stuff in a kind of expanded reality. So it's just so fascinating. It's so interesting. And another thing I thought, have you, you know Arthur C. Clarke, of course, the, the sci fi novel, sorry, the sci fi writer, he wrote a. Have you heard of childhood's at. Have you ever read that book?

[Jordan Jozak]

No.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's all about these alien beings that kind of are overseeing Earth and they both infiltrate the government in these covert ways and then they also speak only to these autistic nonverbal children and that's how they communicate. And I think of your experience in the center you were at and think of the telepathy tapes which is now super in vogue and popular is an amazing podcast by Kai Dickens about all these non verbal autistic children and the paradigms that they live in, which are really heart centered and involve love and also a lot of these other beings and knowledge that seems like hermetic and through channels that you would never have been able to get through inductive logic, they come out, they know certain Egyptian hieroglyphics prolifics and stuff. Like it does feel like that's. And then all this whole modern disclosure movement which is sort of, you know, a little ridiculous, but it's happening. It feels like that book is happening.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, totally. I have two like oh gosh, there's so many ways I want to take this. You know, actually I'll build on a little bit of this without like saying too much, but this is like a very personal experience for me. There was an individual, one of the guests on a Telepath Tapes episode. I won't get into the names, but I actually interacted with, right. Like I had a zoom phone call with them really quick, right, light years away, but had just a great call got introduced. And then I went to sleep that evening. And then that evening I had the most extreme astral experience being taken out of my body to like a vibrational state that I've never experienced before, like super, super high. Felt it just in my entire being. And I was like very clearly on what I would best describe as like the hill. And when I was there, it felt like I was in an auditorium where there was all these other people with me. And interestingly enough I had this image kind of like that came into my head and it was from the person that I interacted with on the tapes. And they were showing me an image of a, a kid named Ken that was in the program that I was in at Baker Victory, who was a nonverbal autistic. And they were communicating to me that like, hey, because you know Ken and you interacted with Ken, we can find you through them, right? Like we're all connected in this certain way. And like that completely changed and like since then I've still had repeating experiences of like being brought to this very high frequency spot. So there's a lot there, right, with the non verbal stuff side of, you know, the autistic world.

[Jesse Michaels]

Yeah, that's fascinating. It's almost like you can link up

[Interviewer / Host]

with another node or something.

[Jesse Michaels]

And then you mentioned that at Baker

[Interviewer / Host]

Victory Services a lot of their work

[Jesse Michaels]

was having you quantum unentangle with things that you were entangled with.

[Interviewer / Host]

So because you're so high empathy and

[Jesse Michaels]

you have kind of a, a porous outer shell at the time, you would just glom onto things and then you'd

[Interviewer / Host]

have to like sort of reel your,

[Jesse Michaels]

your, your full self back in or you.

[Jordan Jozak]

It's almost as if like. So for thinking from like a quantum perspective, if you're thinking about remote viewing, like other viewers have talked about this, right? Like your own bias, your own life experience, your own perception is actually going to create how you view things, right? So again, for people that are like looking. We'll back up real quick because this is like an important thing to say. So as we've, we're here at the critical component of like disclosure, right? There's something more than us, there's a different intelligence out there. All of this. I, I think like if I was at other intelligence, I would probably be like looking at humanity Laughing like, you guys need to get out of your own way. And before we should focus on like communing with NHI and communing, you know, with what very well may be angels, like whatever you want to call them, we should probably understand ourselves first and we should probably understand our own reality first. And then if we do that, maybe, you know, we'll aspire to this. Right? Because it's like again, just like we talked about with psychedelics, like, don't bypass. Right? Yeah, like we can't bypass what? The lesson here I think is more of like this mirror that's being presented to humanity of like, you're on this very weird path. There's a lot of trepidation ahead of you. You haven't like understood your relationship with reality. So if there's like one wish for humanity that I have, it's like, take this as a catalyzing moment. You're not alone in the universe. Great. But the real lesson isn't just you're not alone in the universe. What do you make of that? The real lesson is there's far more to reality than you've been told and you have the right to explore that.

[Jesse Michaels]

And what would you say to the many people who your story probably resonates very deeply with? And I'll take it even a step

[Interviewer / Host]

to far further your story could represent.

[Jesse Michaels]

There are people who've been abducted by what they think are non human intelligence or ETs. Often they're gray aliens and they'll see the COVID of Communion, Whitley Strieber's book. And I've had some of these people on my show where they'll be at a bookstore and they'll see it. It'll bring back these memories for them. And for you, it was the stress of a startup, a relationship going south that brought up your own memories. I'm sure this show might bring up some memories for people. How would you advise them?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, well, like right now the perfect container isn't built, right. But this is a personal venture for me where I'm trying to build that container that's like safe, supported and has the capital and the resources to actually give people some direction. Right. So like in my case specifically, you know, all of this was hidden, you know, primarily on under dissociation. Right. And if we look at psychology today, like dissociation is like the least studied of like trauma responses. And even if we want to take this a step further, right, like it's not just helping gate kids, it's actually like we are reevaluating what psychology is, you know, if we go back to like there was Carl Jung, right, And he had this kind of spirituality or like esoteric perspective merged with psychology and we kind of took like left hand turn and ended up with what we know as now as the dsm. You know, I think largely it's not just helping gate kids, but I think through the art of helping gate kids and better like understanding dissociation, you know, we might be able to build a brand new book of psychology. Like we're talking about the non locality of consciousness, right? Like how many psychologists are trained on that?

[Interviewer / Host]

Totally. You know, if there is this more

[Jesse Michaels]

embedded deep link between mind matter, I mean even that phrase mind matter embeds kind of a duality that probably doesn't exist. Right. It changes psychology wholesale, you know, like and it's kind of more empowering than some of these, like oh, we're just going to use, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy or internal family systems or Jungian symbology or whatever. Like no, you can, if you can somehow, you know, change the way your subconscious functions, frames things, you can really affect the person's reality and obviously in negative ways as you've experienced or extremely positive ways.

[Jordan Jozak]

Totally. Yeah. I personally think the greatest gift to humanity that I could be a part of is actually helping in the psychology process. Because if we look today with all these outdated treatments and people treating symptoms and never necessarily getting over depression, never fully understanding how trauma, trauma has affected them, you know, in their upbringing, I think that there could just be such a gift there too. So this is something that we're championing with the Telepathy center, you know, so if you're like a clinician, right, if you're someone that's on this frontier side of psychology, you're willing to think outside of the box, like contact us, contact me. If you're someone with clean conscious capital, right, like looking to support those that maybe have been, you know, targeted, this population of gay survivors, please contact. Right. Again, the container for this doesn't exist today, but it's something that I'm hoping to build.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's a beautiful message, man, and I'm really excited to see what you do on a go forward basis. And how can people download this new app that you have?

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, yeah. So you can go to thetelepathycenter.com we'll be releasing here in June, check out everything. So excited to share that with the world. That's kind of the primary updates. You can find [e-mail] too. Just my personal, personal bios on there, but really looking forward to getting this tool in the hands of everyone and yeah, showing hopefully what may be like the start of a brand new renaissance. I think my last little message for humanity is I have walked through the darkness, figuratively, literally all of it in my life. And there's so much with this disclosure, narrative and paradigm that is conspiratorial and it is dark. And it's not that it's not true, it's just that we have a moment in time to take that right hand path or take the left hand path. And while all of this may be scary and completely earth shattering to some, it's also the potential for a brand new renaissance for a lot of us, for a whole new planet to be basically given brand new tools, brand new ways of looking at life, brand new physics. Like, I don't think it's necessarily something we're going to figure out in the lab. I think we're going to figure out with our own minds and we may figure out that there's a correlation to our models of physics and the way that we believe our subconscious looks at physics. Right. Like, what if the underlying mechanism is actually inside us instead of outside of us?

[Interviewer / Host]

This is one of my favorite shows I've ever done. I hate to even call it a show if that feels sacrilegious for the really intense, deep conversation we just had. But I hope, you know, people can get something out of it too. And I hope you enjoyed it.

[Jordan Jozak]

Yeah, no, I had a blast. Like, I want to keep going. Like, we'll have to do another one.

[Interviewer / Host]

Let's run it back.

[Jordan Jozak]

Do another. And yeah. So excited for the opportunity. Thanks for having me on, Jesse.

[Interviewer / Host]

Oh, dude, it was an honor.

[Jesse Michaels]

If you've made it this far in the show, then I know you care enough to hear about this. Our show, American Alchemy, is growing super fast. It's bursting at the seams. We are looking for an amazing editor to join the team. If you're an experienced YouTube editor, podcast editor, trailer editor, or documentary style editor, maybe you're even a traditional Hollywood editor and you're just really into our content and you want to work on some of the most mind bending stories in the world, we really want to hear from you. We're especially looking for people who are deep into the content and who have a real editorial eye. Someone who can dig through long and sometimes dense conversations, find the most powerful moments, build tension, create great hooks. Basically people who can turn these raw conversations into very high quality, almost cinematic episodes. Strong technical skills are a prerequisite. But especially for the documentaries we make, we really need somebody with taste who has strong instincts around pacing, music, sound design, story structure. You know all the things. And big bonus points if you're genuinely into UFOs, consciousness, frontier science, and big questions about the nature nature of reality. So if you're a strong, experienced editor and you know how to keep audiences engaged and you want to work with us on some of the coolest stories in the world, please email all your relevant work and your application to applyessemichaelsmedia.com and if you have a friend who would be great for this role, please let them know. Thank you so much and we look forward to hearing from you and maybe working with you.

[Jordan Jozak]

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[Jesse Michaels]

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