NASA Chief: "We Just Built Antigravity Propulsion!” - American Alchemy with Jesse Michels

Podcast Summary

American Alchemy with Jesse Michels

Episode: Top NASA Scientist Shows Me Antigravity Proof [Shocking Result Revealed]
Date: March 30, 2026
Guests: Dr. Charles Bühler (Lead Electrostatics Scientist at NASA, Exodus Propulsion Technologies), Dr. David Chester (MIT/UCLA physicist, QED specialist)

Overview:

Jesse Michels delves into the controversial and potentially revolutionary world of antigravity and non-Newtonian propulsion technologies. The episode centers on Dr. Charles Bühler, NASA's lead electrostatics scientist, who, alongside his Exodus Propulsion team, claims to have validated and advanced the decades-old "electrogravitics" work begun by Thomas Townsend Brown—demonstrating experimental evidence for a new force that could upend traditional rocket propulsion and enable interstellar travel. The discussion spans the physics, experiment controls, potential real-world impacts, historical context, skepticism, and even UFO lore surrounding these findings.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Rocket Equation Problem and the Promise of Reactionless Propulsion

[02:12] Jesse lays out the problem: traditional rockets are bound by Newton’s 3rd law—almost all of a rocket’s mass is fuel, limiting practical interstellar travel to infeasible timescales (“50 to 80,000 years to Proxima Centauri B”).
[03:36] “To go anywhere in space, you have to carry fuel, massive amounts of it... Over 90% of any rocket’s mass at launch is just propellant.” – Jesse
[04:25] Contrasts this with the Townsend Brown/“electrogravitics” hypothesis: thrust generated without mass ejection, possibly by manipulating gravity via high-voltage asymmetrical capacitors.

2. Townsend Brown, Electrogravitics, and Institutional Suppression

[05:50] Townsend Brown’s 20th-century experiments—claimed to merge gravity and electromagnetism—are widely stigmatized, suspected classified, but witnessed in high-level government/military settings (e.g., Curtis LeMay, Edward Teller).
[06:44] “Nonetheless, stigma, tech protection and scientific suppression are all very real. Brown’s work is still likely classified by the Navy to this day.” – Jesse

3. Meet Dr. Charles Bühler: NASA’s Electrostatics Lead and Force Experiments

[13:40] Jesse introduces Bühler as the “lead electrostatics scientist at NASA,” with independent validation/extension of Brown’s experiments using modern instruments and rigorous controls.
[14:53] “I think I know enough about electrostatics to say that. But we’re always still learning.” – Bühler
[15:16] Describes his NASA role and founding purpose of the electrostatics lab: from safety (incidents involving electrostatics) to lunar dust mitigation.

4. Overview of the Experimental Evidence

a. Initial Discovery

[33:10] First observed anomalous force in 2010: “We saw the laser move... It was like, what is happening here? This is really crazy. Something is weird.” – Bühler

b. Replication and Iteration

[42:47] Over 2,000 experiment variations with different controls.
[43:11] Variables manipulated: voltage, geometry, materials (“high dielectric breakdown strength”), field strengths.

c. Controlling for Ion Wind and False Positives

[49:02] Use of vacuum chambers, Faraday cages, and capping methods to eliminate non-propellant (ion wind) forces.
[49:50] “You watch the weight, and you turn it on. The thing lifts up, and the weight flat lines does not move at all.” – Bühler

d. Demonstration Tactics

[56:07 to 58:36] Bühler describes weighing thrusters in air/vacuum, flipping assemblies, deionizing, re-taring scales, and observing thrust both upward and downward based on polarity—proving the effect is not due to scale stickiness or electrical interference.

**[57:52] “Now the force pushes down instead of up. This proves that the thruster itself is creating the force, not some outside interference or attraction to the scale like electrical interference or the thruster just sticking to the scale. I would say this video proves the force fairly definitively to any skeptic.” – Jesse

e. Vacuum Chamber Testing

[58:36] “So these are just two out of the 2,000 experimental variations... If you’re an experimental physicist... and you want to see one of these experiments live in person to help vet it and maybe change the world in the process? Hit me up…” – Jesse

f. Results

[40:30] Achieved up to 5–10 millinewtons of thrust: “You would be able to… move satellites, maintain orbits, potentially enable deep space exploration.” – Jesse
[70:01] Thrust not enough to lift objects in Earth gravity (yet), but easily enough for microgravity/lunar conditions.

5. Peer Review, Skepticism, and Scientific Openness

[62:23] “Has anybody come in, thoroughly examined your experiment and come out skeptical...?” – Jesse
[62:39] “I would say the latter for sure. There’s something there.” – Bühler
[65:12] Peer review efforts ongoing (“just a very busy person”), but Bühler emphasizes open-source publishing, company demoing, and patent route due to stigmatic hurdles in academia.

6. Experimental Controls and Known Physics

[51:23–55:01] Outlines thorough controls for ion wind, vacuum/electric field interference, and alternative falsities like Coulomb attraction to chamber walls.
[60:22] DC setup ensures no weird AC-induced magnetic effects. “Eliminates a lot of that... and when you turn it off and it’s still there, that eliminates a lot of that.” – Bühler

7. Quantum Electrodynamical (QED) Theory Discussion

a. Bühler’s Approach:

[114:38] Attempts to explain effect using quantum electrodynamics (QED)—takes higher-order perturbation theory beyond simple Coulomb interaction, speculating multi-charge (“third order”) terms might underlie the effect.
Wonders if effect is due to quantum-scale virtual photons (“scalar photons”) not present in classical Maxwellian electromagnetism.

b. Expert Critique: Dr. David Chester

[128:16+] Chester acknowledges Bühler’s rigor but cautions: standard QED strictly conserves momentum; scalar photons aren’t physical/radiative. Suggests effect may not strictly fit within standard quantum field theory.
[137:32] “Even as a scientist, I have to say that is encouraging and we should explore this further.”
Chester recommends further theoretical diligence and experimental cross-checks, notes hidden momentum literature, and points out that unitarity and Noether’s theorem (“momentum is always conserved”) are hard to violate—if anomaly holds, a deeper physical explanation is required.

8. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

The Experimenter’s Perspective

[34:30] “That was very exciting for me because it was the first time we’d all seen it and there was a world-class scientist there... to help us, you know? It was actually like, ‘Wow. What happened here?’” – Bühler

The Skeptic’s Test

[61:44] Jesse: “Is there anything left? ... Is there anything they can hang their hat on as far as being skeptical about this actually happening?”
[61:58] Bühler: “If there is, it’s something quite exotic that I have no idea what it would be... I don’t know what else it would be.”

The Open Source Spirit

[89:01] “This is a new force. It's just what it is. Whether it's a gravitational force or some other quantum mechanical effect, it's too important to just say, no, no, no, I'm going to work on it until I'm done, then I'll let you see it at the end. That's not what this should be.” – Bühler

Scientific Pathways

[65:14] “Right now, we’re focused on getting the company started so we get some funding to really get the forces up. That’s our main focus. Yeah, the peer review and all of that’s going to take 20 years.” – Bühler

UFO & Inspiration

[73:14]+ Jesse draws out Bühler’s childhood and adult UFO sightings:
- “Six bright white lights... just going over the road, just not moving very fast. Just hanging out in formation. No sound, no wind, no nothing... It was a lot of fun. I thought that was pretty cool. So I geared my career towards trying to understand some of that stuff.” – Bühler
[80:44] “Did it still look like this amorphous light at 50 yards or could you make out the structure?”
Bühler: “Just six or seven lights going in a pattern. Faster, slower, in and out of the water. Like the water wasn’t there... It was mirroring us. Did you get any sort of consciousness download or feel mentally locked in with it?”
“No, I don’t think so ... I don't think I'm anything special. They're just following people.”

Destiny and the Scientific Process

[111:25] “You have to have the imagination to realize there might be a there there to even try it in the first place.” – Jesse

Real-World Implications

[41:18] “We can make flying cars on the moon and Mars and all of that. So it’s a very exciting place to be right now.”
[89:33] “So the world needs this… If I can help, I will.” – Bühler

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic/Quote | Speaker(s) | Timestamp (approx.) | | --- | --- | --- | | The Rocket Limitation/Intro to Brown | Jesse, co | 02:12–07:00 | | Dr. Bühler’s Credentials, NASA Lab | Jesse, Bühler | 13:40–15:36 | | The 2010 Discovery | Bühler | 33:10 | | Rigorous Experiment Controls | Bühler | 49:02–54:09 | | Vacuum Chamber Testing | Jesse, Bühler | 58:36 | | Experimental Physicist Challenge | Jesse | 60:01 | | Peer Review and Openness | Jesse, Bühler | 64:44–65:32 | | UFO Experiences | Bühler | 73:01–80:44 | | Quantum Electrodynamics Discussion | Bühler, Chester | 114:38–149:34 | | Closing Thoughts on Science, Openness | Jesse, Bühler | 89:01, 111:25 | | “Is there a there there?” | Jesse, Bühler, Chester | 91:05–94:47 |

Conclusion

This episode delivers a densely detailed, open-minded, and experimentally grounded exploration of what could be a paradigm-shifting advance in propulsion science. Dr. Bühler’s testimony and evidence are met with healthy skepticism but also genuine curiosity—mainstream physics’ conservative skepticism is laid bare, but the experimental challenge is left open. The effect, if validated by further community engagement and peer review, would fundamentally alter aerospace propulsion, our ability to travel space, and perhaps open our models of the physical universe to entirely new domains.

For further information, demos, or to attempt reproducing the experiment, visit Exodus Propulsion Technologies’ website (exoduspropulsionspace.com) and reach out to Jesse at usa.alchemymail.com.

Notable Quotes for Sharing

“Go build this thing in your garage. Seriously, don’t take my word for it.” — Bühler [85:41]
“If this effect is real, it is too important to be bottled up completely. The world needs this.” — Bühler [89:01]
“Has anybody come in, thoroughly examined your experiment and come out skeptical?” — Jesse
“I would say the latter for sure. There’s something there.” — Bühler [62:39]
“[Your] experimental results are, gotta be in the top ten in terms of most convincing things I’ve seen.” — Dr. David Chester [137:32]
“I don’t think if Neil DeGrasse Tyson were in a room with your experiment, I don’t think he could explain it.” — Jesse [85:46]

Episode skips ads, intros, and outros; focus is on main content only.