A Sleepy White House Correspondents' Dinner, A 2024 Election Tell-All, And Democratic Hope With Amanda Litman

Summary

American Fever Dream Episode Summary
Episode: "A Sleepy White House Correspondents' Dinner, A 2024 Election Tell-All, And Democratic Hope With Amanda Litman"
Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosted by: V. Spehr and Sammy Sage
Guest: Amanda Litman, Author of "When We're in Charge"

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1. Introduction and Episode Overview [01:11 - 02:00]

V. Spehr and Sammy Sage kick off the episode by introducing the main topics and guest. They express excitement about discussing leadership within the Democratic Party and introduce Amanda Litman, highlighting her role in founding "Run for Something" and her contributions to empowering young political candidates.

Notable Quote:
V. Spehr [01:16]: "Every week, Spehar and co-host Sami Sage will tenderly guide you through the biggest moments in politics and pop culture with a healing dose of perspective and humor."

2. Reflections on the White House Correspondents' Dinner [02:45 - 04:07]

The hosts reminisce about attending last year's White House Correspondents' Dinner, noting the absence of this year's event. They discuss the tone of the dinner, which predominantly targeted President Joe Biden, reflecting the journalists' frustration with the administration.

Notable Quote:
V. Spehr [03:09]: "It kind of felt like a little Passover cloud."

3. Democratic Party’s Internal Struggles and Leadership Issues [04:07 - 12:07]

Sammy Sage delves into Amanda Litman's insights from her book and other recent publications, discussing the Democratic Party's lack of a clear message and internal conflicts. They critique the party's reliance on old guard figures like Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, which has hindered fresh leadership and contributed to the party's waning appeal.

Notable Quote:
Sammy Sage [05:20]: "The key message I got from this book is that the Democratic Party is a true delusional circle jerk living inside a bubble."

4. The Unfuck America Tour and Young Activism [27:16 - 32:26]

V. Spehr and Sammy Sage analyze the recent Unfuck America Tour, a leftist initiative aimed at countering right-wing figures like Charlie Kirk. They critique the tour's strategy of heckling opponents, suggesting it undermines effective activism and public perception.

Notable Quote:
V. Spehr [28:49]: "They didn't just come out and try to imitate what someone else did. They just went these town halls, like, it's not obviously that original of an idea, but they keep making a point."

5. Leadership and Building a Unified Democratic Message [37:08 - 44:52]

The conversation shifts to the importance of defining a clear and cohesive message for the Democratic Party. Sammy Sage proposes foundational pillars such as equal rights, affordable housing, and removing money from politics. Amanda Litman emphasizes the need for "responsible authenticity" in leadership, advocating for leaders who are genuine yet strategic in their approach.

Notable Quotes:
Sammy Sage [37:18]: "Our pillars should be equal rights, affordable housing, and getting money out of politics."
Amanda Litman [38:41]: "Being inclusive, which, you know, sometimes requires being a little bit exclusive."

6. Amanda Litman’s Insights on Next-Generation Leadership [37:32 - 49:20]

Amanda Litman discusses her book "When We're in Charge," focusing on what it means to be a next-generation leader. She advocates for authentic leadership that balances standing firm on core values while remaining compassionate and humane. Litman highlights the surge in young candidates inspired by "Run for Something," underscoring a movement towards more diverse and representative political leaders.

Notable Quote:
Amanda Litman [38:09]: "We need to take our cues from millennial and Gen Z leaders across the country who have really navigated the tension of clearly standing for something, communicating that in a way that makes sense to people."

7. Policy Focus: Affordable Housing and Electing Renters [49:40 - 56:10]

The hosts and Litman delve into the critical issue of affordable housing. They discuss the psychological impact of housing instability and the importance of electing renters to political office to better represent the majority who are renters. Litman highlights successful initiatives like Cambridge, Massachusetts' zoning reforms and emphasizes increasing housing supply as a primary solution.

Notable Quote:
Sammy Sage [52:13]: "We think about psychological. It's like, it's not just that I can't afford my house right now. It's that I'm never going to be able to afford a house."

8. Concluding Thoughts and Final Messages [56:10 - End]

In the closing segments, the hosts reflect on the necessity of moving beyond identity politics to focus on substantive policy changes. They reiterate the importance of authentic leadership and building a unified Democratic platform. Amanda Litman encourages listeners to engage in local politics and support initiatives that promote affordable housing and diverse representation.

Notable Quote:
Amanda Litman [58:11]: "Being authentic is by knowing who you are and who you want to bring in in order to keep other people out."

Final Takeaways

• Leadership Evolution: The Democratic Party must embrace next-generation leaders who are authentic, inclusive, and strategic.
• Clear Party Message: Establishing foundational pillars like equal rights, affordable housing, and campaign finance reform is crucial.
• Electing Diverse Candidates: Increasing representation of renters and marginalized communities in political office can lead to more effective and relatable governance.
• Effective Activism: Moving away from performative actions towards meaningful policy advocacy enhances the party's public image and impact.

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Listeners are encouraged to follow Amanda Litman on Instagram (@AmandaLitm) and explore her work with "Run for Something" at runforsomething.net. For more in-depth discussions, tune into the full episode on YouTube at Betches Media’s YouTube Channel.

Transcript

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[V. Spear]

Rise and Shine, Fever dreamers. Look alive my friends. I'm V. Spear.

[Sammy Sage]

And I'm Sammy Sage.

[V. Spear]

And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betches News, the show where the.

[Sammy Sage]

Only person getting out of Doge is Elon Musk. Ha ha ha ha ha. Thanks Caroline. We love that one. So today we are talking leadership and later in this episode we're going to be talking to Amanda Litman, author of the upcoming book when we're in Charge. Amanda founded, co founded run for something. And she's responsible for truly thousands of young people running for office. You see David Hogg. That's how you do it.

[V. Spear]

We gotta get more millennials in there. When we talk about young people, I'm not talking about like 22, 23 year old Gen Zers. I'm talking about millennials. Okay, so when we say when we have power, we mean we the forgotten generation of millennials.

[Sammy Sage]

Look, I like a developed free prefrontal cortex. So depending where you fall in the younger generation also time marches forward. So because of that you will continue getting older and hopefully more mature, I hope again. And, and you know, we're going to, we're going to talk about what, what makes a good leader. And we're not going to talk about this only from the Perspective of. Of age, but from the perspective of coalition building and, you know, I don't have a good segue here. I was going to say, much like building a coalition, we want to build our YouTube subscribers. So head on over to the Betches News YouTube and subscribe and watch. You're never going to watch it. Do a. Subscribe, even if you prefer to listen. I've gotten very into watching YouTube lately.

[V. Spear]

So we do lights, camera, makeup, and action for you. Now we do full, full glam for this. It was White House correspondence weekend, and we went last year. We didn't go this year, but I feel tired. Like, I went. I mean, I did the MSNBC coverage, so I felt like I was up kind of dealing with it. But did you hear anything from the weekend? It kind of felt like a. Like a Passover, like a little. Little Passover cloud.

[Sammy Sage]

I didn't. I didn't really hear much. I did see some photos. Yeah, the photos made me feel like, oh, maybe I should have gone, you think?

[V. Spear]

But I didn't have a bow big enough. All I saw from the photos was Tara Palmeri's red outfit with a huge red bow. And I thought to myself, you know what? I wasn't meant to be there this year. I can't carry a bow.

[Sammy Sage]

Can't carry a bow.

[V. Spear]

Can't carry a bow.

[Sammy Sage]

All right, fine.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, we were last year, the little cutie hair bow. The bow was much bigger this year. We were. We were on the outs of the bows. We were little bows. And it was a big bow year.

[Sammy Sage]

You know, I'll. Maybe we'll go next year. We'll see if we still have a.

[V. Spear]

We'll see if we have a free press. Well, they're handing over leadership from Eugene Daniels to. To whoever comes next. And so I'm interested to see how it's going to go if they'll bring back the comedian, if they'll. If they'll push back a little bit more. This year's awards were really about dragging the shit out of Joe Biden. And I guess that makes sense because that's kind of what, you know, the last year of covering the press was.

[Sammy Sage]

But. But yeah, I think there was something notable about it, which was actually that there was a lot of time spent kind of at the actual dinner of journalists saying. Acknowledging that they had missed this story. And also I keep seeing people talking about this seems to be sort of like in the discourse, I think, because Alex Thompson from Axios won an award for his reporting on Biden's condition and There are also three books out right now that are sort of backtracking on, or not backtracking, but rewinding to the. To the 2024 election and the whole switch, the candidate switch out and what happened with, you know, how is the Trump campaign reacting and like, really what was going on behind the scenes and examining how the Trump campaign was able to actually pull so many of Biden's voters and what dynamics they were responding to. And I actually read one of them this week. I read Fight by Jonathan Allen and Amy Barnes. I'm not sure what made me pick that one. I just. It just called to me and I think Jonathan Allen, I read a lot of his reporting and it's very good. So.

[V. Spear]

And I feel like I read it because you sent me so many screenshots because you. It was so. It was so. It was really interesting. So. Oh, my God, Club of our own this weekend.

[Sammy Sage]

You don't even know the half of it. But I wanted to talk about this today because I think that the key message I got from this book is that the Democratic Party is a true delusional circle jerk living inside a bubble. And that is the reason why the party to this day has no message. It's what kept Biden in the race for so long. It was the cause of what went down with the candidate switch. And it even served as a huge drag on Kamala Harris's campaign because the people running this party put party over country time and time and time again. They didn't necessarily put party over constitution, like maybe some of the other, you know, maybe some other figures in this country are doing, but they definitely put party and their own interests, though I would argue they fucked their own interests in the long run. So that's what you get for thinking very short term. And that's really what they did. The simplest way to put is that everything that we suspected is. Is real.

[V. Spear]

I wasn't ready for these books. I was actually super aggravated when these books started coming out, like in January, February, I think now.

[Sammy Sage]

No, I think they're just coming out like now.

[V. Spear]

When we started hearing they were coming out, I was like, why do we have to rehash the Biden thing? I was. It was still like a little open wound for me. And I will say I am much more open to it now. And I think I learned a lot and healed even a little bit from it because there was a lot of stuff that we knew was going on and that we want to stop that now that it's sort of been brought into the light I'm hopeful we can move on from. Cuz we still have issues. I mean Biden's out of the White House. Right. And that's, that's sort of like gone. But we still have Chuck Schumer who refuses to leave leadership. We still have Nancy Pelosi who refuses to allow anybody to run for her seat. She, she hasn't even recognized that she has a challenger. Like. So we're, we're still facing a lot of these issues. And the problem is what we see from what they did during the campaign were things that a 70 or 80 year old person may have found really powerful, like having Liz Cheney, Joy and Kamala Harris on stage. That, that, that wasn't actually anybody. It wasn't great. But I, but I could see that being something that people who remember the old John McCain party would have maybe been into.

[Sammy Sage]

Maybe. But that was a data driven decision. Like, like, I think that part. Okay. There were, there are a lot of pieces to this and I want to, I want to go through all them.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, take us through.

[Sammy Sage]

Okay. But I will say the decision to, the decision to campaign with Liz Cheney was more about her hitting a ceiling in terms of support. And they needed to. Actually, what they did in this, you know, I wrote down a few interesting things I found which was that they had like expanded the definition of a persuadable voter so wide such that that someone in the Harris campaign actually knocked on the door for the executive director of the Virginia State Republican Party that was then assigned to the state parties, the state Democratic parties and Republicans, that the campaign was failing and that they were looking for these like moderate voters, that they are former or Republican voters that they thought they could persuade. And part of that was that they were limited with how much they could say in terms of breaking with Biden. And that's actually I think like the biggest dynamic here that really screwed her. So let me just explain the dynamics. But like how the, how the DNC works now. So the Biden and Clinton worlds, their advisors, the people who worked in their administrations, there's a lot of overlap between those worlds and the dnc. Yeah, that contingency has more control over the dnc and therefore they had a chokehold on the rules that would have enabled the party to replace Biden when he wouldn't step down. So that's why it was like only his decision. And then the Clintons had a lot of sympathy for Biden because they had been attacked by the party in the past. So they were kind of like, you know, he's the guy. Plus, I'm sure the age thing didn't help. Yeah, then the Obama world, as we know, is a different thing. But I don't know if that. It appears that way to the, you know, average American. They wanted Biden out for the same reasons we and met every American pretty much did. They're not really part of that Obama, that Biden Clinton contingent. And the reason is because or what one thing it traces to is that Obama had originally tried to set up a. When back when he was running a platform that was adjacent to the DNC that he called Organizing for America. That's in. Ends up working. But there's now a consensus that him doing that really screwed up the DNC organization potentially to this day. So him trying to kind of do his own thing and be like, outside the party apparatus never really, like, fixed itself. And then it was heightened by the fact that Obama never really supported Biden and running for president. Obviously he thought it was a great vice president.

[V. Spear]

He endorsed Clinton, though, the first time, and that was like their first big beef because he was just coming off being vice president to Obama and he didn't get his endorsement.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah. And I mean, I think that part of it was that he wanted to have that he thought, like many people, that they wanted to try to have a woman president. And also, I just think he doesn't hold Biden's political instincts in that high esteem, nor did he. Nor does he hold Kamala's political instincts in that high esteem. And it was ultimately.

[V. Spear]

Find out from the book.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, oh, yeah, you'll find out.

[V. Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

It was ultimately Obama's people, David Pluff, Stephanie Cutter, who were the ones who ended up taking over Harris's campaign. And they were the same people who had tried to already prevent her from taking the nomination. So it. So that's how it started. And then Obama and Pelosi, for the same reasons, not holding Kamala Harris's political instincts in super high esteem, really wanted this open convention mini primary. That again, I still do not see how the logistics would have.

[V. Spear]

It would have been a nightmare either.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, it wouldn't have.

[V. Spear]

It wouldn't.

[Sammy Sage]

It also wouldn't have under. It wouldn't have taken care of the major criticism, which is of the Democratic Party, which is that people perceived the switch to be like throwing out the primary voters.

[V. Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

I still don't understand that. Because she was on the ticket.

[V. Spear]

Well, that's why it had to be her.

[Sammy Sage]

Right.

[V. Spear]

It was this idea that her name was also on the ticket with Him. When you sign up for Biden, we knew what age he was. We all did that. That song and dance show where we sort of were coping and being like, this is why it was what it was. I was always for Kamala. So I. I don't know.

[Sammy Sage]

I. I was always for Kamala as like a logical. Like, yeah, like, if you were. If it were two years ago, I would watch a primary and then I determine who I think was the best. But in that situation, there was no other option. And I think that the way it played out showed that she was the best chance because. Okay, so.

[V. Spear]

Because there's no party leader right now. Right. She lost. And there's no one who's, like, even a close second right now. When you say who's leader of the Democratic Party, there's people maybe, I don't know.

[Sammy Sage]

And so. So this is how it went down. They wanted this mini primary. And in fact, in that three weeks and even before Biden had even considered stepping out before the debate, he and his advisors and basically anyone who was suggesting Biden should get out, they would use Kamala Harris becoming the nominee as like, the threat against lawmakers like, whoa. And donors like, do you. Well, do you want him to replace her? Do you want it to be Kamala Harris? And so he. He seemingly took so long to get out because he didn't think she could win. Plus the fact that his own administration had sort of spent the past two years throwing her under the bus for his own advantage, like it's Prince Charles doing it to his own son, Prince Harry. And then once it was clear he had to get out, he only used that endorsement of Kamala Harris as a fudge you to Obama and Pelosi. He wanted to wait.

[V. Spear]

We knew that. Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

He wanted to wait like a few days to endorse her. And she basically had to be like, no, like this. This has to happen now or it won't. It won't work. And the reason she was able to get the nominee nomination was because she and her. She and kind of people on her behalf, you know, like Kakim Jeffries, Bakari Sellers, like Minnie and more. They were sort of right. After the debate, they realized that it was going to either be her or him and that this open primary idea was not going to happen and that if they were to skip over her, it would actually just break apart the entire Democratic Party because the base essentially like that. Jim Clyburn led South. South Carolina, led part of the vote.

[Dr. Naomi Bernstein]

Hello. Over sharing listeners, it's Dr. Naomi Bernstein. With some exciting news starting January 13th, our Oversharing Calm the Fuck down subscription is getting even better. Subscribers will get oversharing episodes a day early, plus additional exclusive bonus content on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month. Here's what's new. One bonus episode with even more emails and advice, and another where we follow up with past email writers who could be you. While we won't be releasing new meditations in the new year, don't worry, all of our past meditations will stay available on the feed for you to enjoy anytime. Plus, we'll have a new Meditations playlist for our Spotify listeners. To sign up now, head to subscribe.basches.com and select Oversharing Calm the Fuck Down. We're so excited about creating this new bonus content, talking to more of you, hearing your stories, sharing some of our own, and reminding us all to calm the fuck down.

[Sammy Sage]

Another reason I think Democrats got so fucked is because Biden changed the South Carolina primary to be first for his own advantage, not because he thinks South Carolina is, like, should be the most important state and go first.

[V. Spear]

Right?

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, exactly.

[V. Spear]

So people were pissed when they felt like they were trying to push Biden out. I remember online a lot of the, like, older Democratic Party and, and, and a lot of Biden voters were furious at what they were doing and, like, canceling people and canceling their subscriptions for even suggesting that Biden should step down. And then it was like, if it's going to happen, then it has to be Kamala or we won't accept it. It was like this very, very messy breakup.

[Sammy Sage]

Right? Well, the thing is, if you're going to argue it has to be Kamala because. Because you can't skip over the first black woman vice president. I kind of think that that's a stupid argument. When you could make an argument for her that has nothing to do with, like, the racial piece or the gender piece, which is that she is the vice president. There's nobody else who has this experience in the party, no one else who can take the donations, no one else who is already voted for on the ticket. So it's like the reason to defend her is not that, oh, you can't skip over, you can't skip her. It's that there is no one better positioned there. There was no one better positioned or legally positioned to take the role. And you see how much, how much her campaign brought the party back to a place not gonna be. So with her, she had kind of been politicking a little bit, but not in. I guess it's probably obvious to people who know, but she had been, like, carrying water for Biden those three weeks, but she was also kind of, like, subtly courting future support. And that's how she was able to avoid the primary, because by the time Obama was like, let's try to do a mini primary, she had already, like, whipped the delegates. Like, it was done.

[V. Spear]

You know, we already had that first White Women for Kamala meeting. Everything was already on the. On the track.

[Sammy Sage]

Exactly. It was over. And Obama really made her, like, sweat it out. And she was hurt by that, because it is hurtful. She was like, why does he not hold me in any sort of esteem that he thinks I can do this? And I wonder if, like, all that did hurt her, like, the fact that they just, like, there was no confidence from people internally. And it's not that she's, like, perfect and just only brought down by her team. I do think her own sort of, like, lack of a vision that she was willing to say, you know what? I'm gonna put this on the table. It's like, he. What happened with him. And this is the part that's so fucking maddening. It is hubris worthy of a Greek tragedy. Like the family chip on the shoulder, the Jill drama. It's all real. The resentment against Kamala, the resentment against anyone who dares suggest that he was too old and shouldn't have run again. By the end, he made Hunter his top political advisor.

[V. Spear]

Everybody's fucking wagons circled up real tight with this. And to say, you know, Joe Bide, Biden is a very sweet, wonderful, nice man, and I think his niceness may have clouded his judgment and who he allowed in. He's also a person who's experienced massive amounts of family trauma. That does change you, where he's softer on Hunter than maybe he should be. It was supposed to be Bo, right? Bo was good. Like, Bo was great.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[V. Spear]

Would have maybe been the president. That maybe worked out. But when he lost Bo, he put it all in Hunter to be like, well, you have to step up and be Bo to the point that a Hunter. Didn't he, like, marry Bo's widow or he has a child with Bo's widow.

[Sammy Sage]

Not a child, but he had a.

[V. Spear]

Relationship with Bo's widow. Like, there's a lot going on in that family in terms of, like, the way that they operate and how tightly they sort of close ranks on each other. And I do imagine in the end, he didn't feel like he could trust anybody outside the party. So he went to his son, who is not maybe, I mean, the best person to go to for this kind of stuff.

[Sammy Sage]

No, and I think that what we see it. Look, I, I think some of it is like, from grief, sure. But there is such a large ego on this man and his wife.

[V. Spear]

If you make him call him the boss, which I thought was a joke, but apparently is true.

[Sammy Sage]

Even Jenna Malley, Dylan, by the time that they were trying to pressure him to get out of the race, she was like actually trying to be more honest. And they cut her out because they wouldn't.

[V. Spear]

Kamala, pick her to be the campaign manager. And we saw it all throughout. All throughout the entire time we campaigned. There were little bits of Biden's ghost everywhere. Whether it was the aviators they handed out to creators. Right. It was the ice cream trucks at events, it was the different cities that they picked. And understandably, like a lot of event planning goes into this in money and contracts and we had to go certain places that made sense for it, but it was still so like Biden leftover that it, it's amazing that she did as well as she did given all of the fuckery that was going on. And the fact that the entire first night of the DNC was a goodbye to Biden was a thank you. We lost an entire day. That's why people say I didn't know what the Democrats were for. Because what we seemed to be for was celebrating Joe Biden giving him. What do they call it in the book, his flowers. Didn't watch his golden watch retirement moment.

[Sammy Sage]

Yes, yes. It literally was okay. They. They talk about how that night Biden was supposed to be on at like 8:30. And if you remember this, it. Oh, it was horrible. So late. Yeah, it was so late. And it's like they wouldn't cut like his daughter. They wouldn't cut Chris Coons. Like, they wouldn't. They would only like. It was all revolving around like, how to get Biden on. They cut James Taylor, who was there for Joe Biden. It's like, it's honestly like the. Okay, and here's the thing. If his flaw is just this massive ego, hers is that she is loyal to a fault. Kamala Harris was screwed from day one, from the beginning by Biden and his people. But she felt indebted to him and.

[V. Spear]

She was very Biden.

[Sammy Sage]

He was in her head the whole time. His. His. His word to her was no daylight kid. So he calls her before the debate and is like right before and is like no daylight. He. And it gets in her head. And if you remember, like, that answer on the View where, which went totally viral when she said she wouldn't have done anything differently than Joe Biden, all of her momentum was gone after that, really, like after the debate, because the calendar was empty. They had to make their own headlines. And all people wanted to do is ask her, how are you going to be different from Biden? And he, like, was in her head telling her, nope, you can't break me in, like, any way. And that basically only opened the category of persuadable voters to more moderate people. And that's how they ended up with Liz Cheney and, like, with the state parties having, like, the Biden strategy and not moving away from that at all.

[V. Spear]

Well, and also then he said this one thing that I remember. It stuck out to me because I was like, I hate that because I could feel this, right? I was, like, actively campaigning for her. And you could feel this all the time. Where on one side of meetings, we would hear how she would do things differently, let's say in Middle east or foreign policy. And then she'd come out and be like, no, I don't think he made any mistakes at all. And it was like, no, you actually do think he made mistakes. You may have done things just slightly differently or finessed it differently or whatever the case may be. And then he came out and said, a vice president's job is to be loyal, and all vice presidents who become president carve their own path eventually. And it was like, no, no, baby, she's gotta be doing that now. But he felt like he did that for Obama the whole time. And he waited his turn the whole time. And so now she was going to have to wait for her turn. And this man stayed president and stayed what he wanted to be to the very last day. And there were things he did in the last week that didn't make it into this book that I guess I'll wait for the next book. Like the fake signing of the era that were.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, that's mentioned.

[V. Spear]

Unhinged at the end of.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, no, sorry situation. Sorry. That was not mentioned in the book. It was mentioned in a different piece I read because I was then starting. I was then, like, after I finished, I was like, kind of like brute, like, browsing for more, like, info about it.

[V. Spear]

And all he cared about was the legacy. That's all I heard in the last I saw him. The last time I saw him was December 13th in the Oval Office, and it was about his legacy and who was going to tell his story. And how we were going to do this. And I was like. And he's like, I'm going to do the era. And I was like, okay, well then that'll be it. Right? And then we had like a fake era signing. And I was like, I can't do anything with that.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, it was like that stupid tweet. It was like, okay, there's something that is uncomfortable about that where he was just. It revealed. It revealed everything. Basically. Like after the debate, his character was revealed because he, and, and the flaws in the party. And I think what the, the problem is is that Biden, by insisting on staying in, never changing course and, and having all his people there, that's like the key thing. It's like the people, you can't make any changes because you have this old guard that their positions and will not change anything. And by the way, I'm not suggesting something like the vice chair of the dnc, David Hogg, should be raising money to beat safe seats to primary Democrats and safe seats so that you can have someone with a younger, you know, was born in a more recent year. That is crazy.

[V. Spear]

That's short sighted.

[Sammy Sage]

That's. Look, that's not the answer either. That's just like doing the same thing for people who are younger because they're younger.

[V. Spear]

Just like generational politics. Right, Right. It's not okay for why though? What are they going to.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm sick of this, this age shit. Because let's. When people say they're too old, I don't believe that they mean old in terms of years. Because you look at Bernie Sanders and everyone gives him his flowers and look, the man is going across the country. He's an old man going across the country and he does not waste a day or an ounce of energy. It's not about your age. It's the way that you think and your willingness to actually be aggressive and be and fight and be creative and what you'll say. That's what I think is so frustrating. And people use age as like a proxy for that because it usually does kind of work that way. But there are plenty of people who are sort of deploying the old school way of thinking. Alyssa Slotkin, who is much younger and it's like, it's not really about their age. It's about the way they think of things. So just because someone is of a younger generation does not mean that they are better. And I think we have some examples of that to bring in our next section of leadership.

[V. Spear]

Right. And when we're, when we're you know, visiting the digital town square where young people often gather and are getting their ideas. And now we know, thanks to Pew Research, most are getting not just their ideas from TikTok and Instagram, but their actual opinions. They will not just come forward with what they inherently believe is true, but will rather defer to comments to decide their opinions for them. Comments that are full of bots and propaganda and all kinds of. Of influence. Over this weekend, we saw a lot of folks in leftist spaces criticizing their own efforts to combat disinformation and the end of democracy and the ways that it's sort of like failing. And perhaps the infighting and the just power grabbing is not just for the old people. It is also for the young people. We saw David Hogg say he's going to, you know, primary all these people with $20 million. Who's giving him $20 million, by the way? And, like, who are the people he'd primary? He didn't have a plan. He just had money and something to mouth alpha about a little bit here. And then there was the UN Fuck America tour. Did you see that?

[Sammy Sage]

No, what's that?

[V. Spear]

Okay, so the UN Fuck America tour, I think in its idea, right in its inception, really makes a ton of sense because what people are being told online is that we need a left version of the right's success, which is not the path that I would take to chasing any kind of success. And so Charlie Kirk has his speaking tour on college campuses, part of Turning Point, where they are actively recruiting and bringing in young people to the right side of the party. And so these kids who are really good at debating online, Dean Withers and Parker joined with this funder to meet at Charlie Kirk events and then essentially heckle him until he debates them. And it. It just didn't work out that well. So they went. Of course, Charlie Kirk is much more funded. They aren't allowed to just heckle him at his own event. Then they're like, we're winning. He doesn't want us around. And then they set up like a stand. Not many people came to this particular stand. And I think young people are learning. Like, it's not that no one has had this idea before, it's that perhaps it hasn't worked before or it takes a little bit more to get it off the ground. And so today on Tick Tock, all we're hearing about is people blaming the funder, who. I'm not involved in this, so I don't know. She. They called her microaggressive. They said that she was anti black. They said that she. They wanted to continue to do the Unfuck America tour, but they needed to find another funder. And I think it's. So that sort of fell apart over the weekend.

[Sammy Sage]

They turned on their own funder.

[V. Spear]

They did?

[Sammy Sage]

Publicly. For what? What did the funder do?

[V. Spear]

Like this. This is like active. We're on Monday morning and they're just starting to talk about it. So I think over the next day or two, if you're following the UN Fuck America Tour drama on TikTok, you'll start to see maybe a little bit more transparency as to what happened here. But at the, at the heart of it, I'm not seeing them necessarily say, hey, it didn't work to show up and heckle Charlie Kirk at his own event. Perhaps there's a better way for us to gain audience than by heckling Charlie Kirk. Right. So that's one thing that sort of happened that was crazy. And then the other thing, moving on from that, since this is like happening right now. I was disappointed yesterday to see the way that some people responded to or created platform for themselves at Cory Booker and Hakeem Jeffries stoop talk on the Capitol front steps. The historic importance of two black men speaking on the stairs cannot be understated. Like both the physicality of it, the way it'll be historically documented, and the conversations they were having about this week's budget bill. And there is truly nothing I think we should be focusing on more than the budget reconciliation package that the Trump administration is trying to put forward that would cut all of Medicaid, that cuts veterans benefits, that cuts public schools. Just an absolute dismantling of the country as we know it. And that's what they were talking about. And then you have people making TikToks because they're like, did you see me with my Free Palestine sign right behind Cory Booker? They wanted me to move, but I didn't move. And I had my sign. I had my sign.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm such a hero.

[V. Spear]

Granted, that is a really important thing to young people and to everybody. Right? Like the atrocities that are happening around the world matter to everyone. But at a time when Cory Booker is actively the senator for New Jersey who is negotiating the release of Mahmoud Khalil to be able to return to New Jersey from a detention camp that he was put in in Louisiana because of him being a negotiator for the pre Palestine movement on Columbia campus, I'm not sure that heckling Cory Booker yesterday was the right time or the right person to do that activism at HEPAC Money V. I know.

[Sammy Sage]

He's the devil.

[V. Spear]

I know. And that's.

[Sammy Sage]

Don't you forget it.

[V. Spear]

That's sort. That's sort of part of the, like, the parroting of things where I'm like, okay, guys, we are. We're not in the Biden years anymore. We're not in the commonly years where you can sort of like, have these pickoff conversations and where we were really able to kind of like, get some attention for that. We are actually facing Trump now. And you don't see these kind of protests at Trump rallies. And then they'll say, oh, well, because it would be unsafe for me. I'm like, but it is unsafe for you to continually sideline and overly criticize the people who are fighting for any of the things you believe in. And I'm not saying people are above criticism. Certainly not. But yesterday's event on the Capitol stairs, I think was not necessarily the right time to come out and start protesting for abortion, start protesting for anything other than what we were there for in that minute, which was, hey, can we quick talk about this budget that will affect all of us. That's what we need to sort of, like, organize around right now and not make it a moment to try and heckle people for likes from bots. In the comment section of TikTok, I.

[Sammy Sage]

Think there's a pretty clear thread between what works and what doesn't or just what is sort of like shitty, selfish activism, quote unquote, versus what is going to be effective or inspiring. And I think that sometimes what I've noticed is that people are extremely unoriginal. So, like, you're not, like, original because you, like, hold up a sign where you're trying to get attention that just says free palette. Like, what are you accomplishing?

[V. Spear]

Right?

[Sammy Sage]

It's not original. They're not original. And like, as in the technique is not original. And their followers, like, you are not, like, what. What is your idea? So, like, even the idea of following around Charlie Kirk, like, stop following the right. Stop trying to create a left wing Joe Rogan. Like, it's not. It doesn't. It's a premise that doesn't even make sense. Like, all of this is very frustrating to watch because it's like, get your own idea. Get, like, stop being a parasite on some other thing that you. That you are trying to use to get attention. If you look at what has been effective, it is creative things. Cory booker, doing the 25, 25 hours, no one was like, oh, let me, like, try he didn't try to imitate what someone else did. The the Oligarchy tour. The people are just coming out. They're just going. They're just coming out. No one told them to do it. No one said, oh, this is going to be modeled on XYZ thing. I'm going to follow around Trump's. What. What Trump did. It's like they just went these town halls, like, it's not obviously that original of an idea, but they keep like they're making a point and they're. And the point is not that they go rival. The point is that the people in the town see them and attend it. It's like there is. There's so much performativeness on the Internet and it drives me fudgeing crazy. And the last thing I just want us to bring up before we bring Amanda Lemon in, who's going to probably help us talk about some more productive ways to lead originally, originally and creatively is this really great carousel I saw from it's on the the thread account at Patricia Deanna and that she posted a carousel from the Soft Revolution. And basically it's about how to tell the difference between healthy protest rhetoric versus red flag leftist rhetoric. Because I know people think, oh, we're not being harmful if we're just calling for more than what, than what moderates or liberal, you know, moderate liberals are calling for. But it's not really that simple because you can also hurt the cause by making the protest actually against people who are aligned with you. So she talks about, like, people who are sort of, you know, bringing in trauma when it's like bringing the trauma as their reason for disruption or performing pain or like, weaponizing their own knowledge. Like, like people who say, don't vote or vote third party, like, don't organize. Like, just you just, you know, you do your own thing. Like, don't take your elders advice for organizing. Like, all of those things are harmful. And there's a reason that you defer to expert organizers and people who have succeeded in movements before. And ultimately her point is that, like, tone is important. The way that you respect your fellow, you know, fellow people, even if they're not like, totally in agreement with you. Like, that is part of solidarity. Like yelling at people because they didn't say the right word or they're canceled because they have this opinion. Like, do you think, Corey, like, does the Free Palestine protester think that, Corey, that given the choice, who would be more respectful of their point of view, Donald Trump or Cory Booker? So you're going to go yell at Cory Booker. I don't really understand.

[V. Spear]

Like, that's where I think a lot of folks are at now, with a lot of the action that's happening in the way that it's going down. Because even today, right, most people didn't know what the Unfuck America Tour was. And what they'll see on TikTok is the members of the Unfuck America tour turn on each other and try to blame each other and try to. Like, all. All the average person is going to know about it is that it failed. That's gonna make it a lot harder to get this lift off. And I do think that Dean and Parker are talented debaters and there's. There's a place for that. And maybe there was a world at the end of all of this. The thing that I have been aggravated with and that I am now really shut off to and sort of narrowing my focus on is like, who is the Democratic Party? What are our values? Instead of trying to chase other people or change minds, I just need people to stand somewhere and say, this is what we stand for. Here's our tablet of our Ten Commandments or whatever we want to call it. This is what we do. This is our project 2029. And that is how. That's the government that you could expect and fucking be selling that for the next four years. Because I don't really care about all the fractures within this or who's doing the right thing. It's kind of like Democratic Party has 29% or whatever, very low approval rating right now because people don't know what they're signed up for. They don't know who we are anymore, what we're about. Until we have that, all this other stuff isn't going to matter.

[Sammy Sage]

I have some ideas if anyone wants to. If anyone's listening and wants to know what they are. I think that our. Our pillars should be equal rights, affordable housing, and getting money out of politics.

[V. Spear]

Bang. See? And then we can run with that.

[Sammy Sage]

And let's bring Amanda Lippman on because we've been making her weight. Amanda, welcome.

[V. Spear]

What's going on?

[Amanda Litman]

I love that. That was so interesting. Thank you for. I love that.

[V. Spear]

Any of this stuff. Because you've been listening in. You didn't know about this.

[Amanda Litman]

I didn't know anything about the Unfuck America America tour. It sounds like it's not going well.

[V. Spear]

It's a great name. It's. It is a D. It's a good idea. But it's like instead of chasing Charlie Kirk, let's get Dean a stage somewhere to talk about whatever it is and model for other young men. Why you shouldn't be an asshole. Right? Like, I would go to that. I'd love to go to that. Dean is phenomenal communicator. He's a great orator. Like, that'd be really cool to watch. I don't need to watch him heckle Charlie Kirk from the side. I think it diminished his power.

[Amanda Litman]

Yeah. Why are we chasing our opponents? We. I think both of you are spot on. Like, we gotta, like, hold the. Create the space of what the Democratic Party is and, like, define ourselves. That doesn't mean everyone's gonna like it. But if people know what we are, at the very least they can have something to respond to. We don't gotta chase the other people's bullshit. Yeah, that's not leadership. That's not leadership. Just what we're.

[Sammy Sage]

So you know what leadership is? Amanda, you know what leadership is because you just wrote a book on it. So will you tell us what are. Like, what do you want everyone to know? What's the point? You want everyone to get from reading your book. And they should read it.

[Amanda Litman]

Yeah, they should. So when we're in charge, which comes out May 13, get whoever books are sold, is about what it means to be a next generation leader, which, as you guys were talking, I think is really what the Democratic Party needs to be doing moving forward. We need to take our cues from these millennial and Gen Z leaders across the country, both in politics and outside of it, who have really navigated the tension of clearly standing for something, communicating that in a way that makes sense to people. Like, being inclusive, which, you know, sometimes requires being a little bit exclusive. You got to, like, keep know who you are and who you want to bring in in order to keep other people out, which I think people don't always think about, to really understand that sometimes that means people won't like you, and that's okay. How to cope with all of that and how to do it in a way that doesn't make people miserable, which is really, like, sort of the tagline of this book that I wrote that I'm really excited about, is it is actually incredibly possible, hard but possible, to be an effective leader without being shitty to the people you lead. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[Sammy Sage]

I mean, I think that's very important because that's kind of our problem now.

[Amanda Litman]

It's not fun right now. And I think, like, you know, look at Trump and Elon. Those are not admirable leaders. They're not doing it right. I don't think it's fun to work for either of them. That's not good role modeling. There's an entirely different way of doing this, and we are seeing examples of that across the country. I think, like, both of you are examples of that, and that's where we got to take our cues from.

[Sammy Sage]

Thank you. But question. Do you think that any of this play maps onto the sort of, you know, masculine, you know, the people call it the masculinity crisis. You could say, oh, like this. This kind of, like, male dominant attitude. Do you think that that is playing into this at all?

[Amanda Litman]

I think there is, like, a very traditional understanding of what a leader looks like. And it's older, white, cisgender dude, usually rich. I think that that particular model, like, the last 15 years have been everyone else sort of ramming a battering ram against that door. And we are right on the tipping point of that changing in a really big way. And that's part of the reason we're experiencing so much pushback. It's like, it's because we're about to break through big time. That's my optimism, perhaps.

[Sammy Sage]

Do you have any thoughts on, like, okay, maybe this is a really pessimistic view, actually. I don't even think it's a pessimistic view. I think it's actually quite realistic. I don't see how, like, at any, let's say, Republicans grew a spine. They impeach Trump, they remove him today. I don't see how you go back to the old way ever again. Like, I don't see how there's going. How we don't come out of this with, like, potentially a different. A government that's structured differently than it is now, because I actually don't see how any of our. Any other countries in this world would trust us to trade with. To as a military alliance for any intelligence alliance. If we can reelect, like, like, the fact that we have Trump again, I think they're just like, oh, like, get us out of that. We don't want to be attached to you. We don't want to be beholden to you. We are kicking you out of the friend group.

[V. Spear]

Oh, totally.

[Amanda Litman]

I don't. We're not going back. And I think, like, that is both really scary and also an opportunity because what. What we had before wasn't working for a lot of people. I think part of the Democratic Party's problem has been refusing to acknowledge that, like, it didn't feel good. It wasn't working. We get a chance to build something new, and I think there's a lot of stuff from the last 250 years that has worked well, but a lot that has not. And we get a chance to hopefully sort of rebuild trust, not just with, like, our voters, but with the rest of the world, because I think we'll get there. I think what I like. I know this is insane to be optimistic, so here's the thing. We have had so Run for something has had 42,000 young people raise their hands to say they want to run in the last six months. That's more than in the entire first two years of Trump's first term. We are building a whole new sea of leaders across the Democratic Party, and Trump cannot run for a third term. We should not give in to this doomerism shit, that he will be back on the ballot and no other Republican can get away with this bullshit. We saw that the 2024 primary. We see that with J.D. vance. We did this with Ron DeSantis. Like, none of them can get away with his bullshit. So in 2028, there's gonna be a lot of ways in which that election is very, very hard for us to win. But I think we'll have an opportunity. And once we do, I think we can build something better.

[V. Spear]

I think so, too. And the thing that I like about your organization is I know for a period of time, as a queer person, right? For a period of time, it was really important for me to identify myself as a lesbian news anchor, right? Like, there was something that was important about that sort of representation. I don't feel like I have to do that anymore because now there are lots, right? Everyone knows, and it's not a whole thing. And I like that we're not, you know, on the run for something site being like. And we have 900 black candidates and 1,000 queer candidates and this one, and like, this. Like, young people, by virtue of our culture and our friendships and our families, are more likely to be mixed race or to have a more diverse group of friends and people that we've already identified as leaders and helpers in our world than, say, folks older who literally grew up when they forced them to desegregate. So it's like, you know, we're in a better situation where I think those kind of, like, identity politics don't need to be as front of line for people, for. For other voters and young voters to see that politician as a whole person without them having to come out and potentially ostracize themselves from this is that white vote by being like, well, I am a lesbian and that's why you should vote for me. Right? I'm sort of glad as I'm watching the years go by that that becomes less and less and less meaningful. It's both less traumatizing to the actual candidate. It puts you in a less vulnerable position because we are the only ones who have to, like, qualify ourselves by who we sleep with first before we'll listen to if we like your traffic light policies or your school board picks, like. So I feel like to that point, when we say we need to pass the baton to the next generation, it's not like we talked about earlier in this episode about age to age. It's like old thinking to new thinking to, like, the new truth of what this country is right now.

[Amanda Litman]

And, you know, we're going to see it in politics first because it's sort of the tip of the spear on leadership change. But it's going to come for every other sector. The youngest boomer hits retirement age in 2030. We're already starting to see it in media. We're starting to see it. I mean, tech is already kind of a young space, but we're seeing, like a new, different kind of tech executive. We're seeing slowly, slowly, slowly more women, more people of color. Not that demographics is destiny, but, like, just by definition, as you said, millennials and then Gen Z are more racially diverse. They're more like, have broader definitions of gender identity and sexual orientation. As we take power, by definition, leadership will look different. And that's going to happen everywhere.

[Sammy Sage]

My concern with, with the resistance, quote, unquote, is that you sort of have this, like, institutional resistance represented by, like, a Cory Booker. And I would say it could really be represented by nearly like, almost anyone who's in office now. But then you have this streak, which really concerns me, which you saw around, like, Luigi Mangioni, where it's this, like, almost resistance streaked with acceptability of death. And I think you see this with people, like, screaming like, death to Jews, you know, that, like, they, like, support Hamas even, you know, as a response to Israel. And I think that there's definitely a strain that's like, you know, gonna occupy the Guillotine Caucus, you know, and my concern is that if you don't have people who believe in sort of that, like, line of, like, you know, you don't kill your opponents because that makes, you know, better than. Than them. If you don't have, like, a. A line, you're gonna get something French Revolutiony. And that's my real worry. So, like, that there's no person who's saying, okay, here's a plan that is, like, moral and not deadly.

[V. Spear]

Well, the guillotine earrings are so cute, though, Sammy. And a lot of the. I mean, there's a little bit of gallows humor here. But yes, to the point when we say they're like, they're. They're trying to make it 1939, let's make it 1752 France or whatever, I'm like, you can't actually kill people in the streets. Like, he used to be able to. Guys, like.

[Sammy Sage]

If you're okay, if you're like, oh, like, they're killing, let's kill, then what's wrong with their killing?

[V. Spear]

Right. Yeah, yeah, just.

[Sammy Sage]

Then you're fine with that. You just don't. You just don't like them.

[V. Spear]

You can't kill other people or yourself. Like, I always say, you know, we have to get through this together.

[Amanda Litman]

Yeah. You know, there's a lot of, like, sort of this broader resistance stuff where I'm like, if you really don't think there's ever going to be another election, like, what are you doing in this conversation? You should be out in the streets with guns like that. Is that a totally insane way to think about it?

[Sammy Sage]

We are not convinced.

[V. Spear]

Yeah.

[Amanda Litman]

Like, we have to operate as if we are going to have a chance to build something better and that we can have a chance to do it in a way that, like, is humane and compassionate and doesn't involve, like, chopping people's heads off in the town square.

[V. Spear]

Well, we have to recognize that having a sense of urgency also can come with a sense of patience. Right. We can have a sense of urgency and have patience that our sense of urgency is to ensure that we protect our democracy and we fight autocracy in the courts in every which way we possibly can. And we have the patience to not just shoot people. Right. Because that'll take care of the problem. Right. Like that. That's also not going to take care of the problem. You create martyrs when you do that. And that's also a lesson from history.

[Amanda Litman]

It feels like it's been 100 years since Trump took office. It's been barely 100 days. You think about where we were at.

[Sammy Sage]

Tomorrow is one of the first, and.

[V. Spear]

A president is the most powerful in their first hundred days. After that, people grow very tired of them not committing the campaign problem promises, whether they're good or bad.

[Sammy Sage]

I think this is sort of like a media like, this to me is like a created event. Like, the fact that it's 100 days, like, that is a pro. I don't really buy into that. Like, I get maybe in like 2008, but, like, I don't buy into that now.

[Amanda Litman]

Here's, here's why I bring that up. It's because it's so early. Like, if we're like, where is the leader? Where is the person putting out the plan? We're barely three months into this. If you think back, like, for the Democrats, for like the opposition, there is still a lot of time. Many of the leaders that we look to now, like AOC didn't start.

[Sammy Sage]

Get.

[Amanda Litman]

Get started until later into the first year run in 2018. Like, we are so early into this chance to define who's going to lead us forward. That's my.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, maybe we don't even know them yet.

[Amanda Litman]

I hope so.

[Sammy Sage]

I really hope we've never even heard of them. It's our only hope.

[V. Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Someone. Who are you? Come on. So, so let me ask you then. What do you think are some of, you know, besides the obvious examples, the oligarchy tour, you know, the, you know, Cory Booker, what do you think are some effective ways that, like, you would like people to be approaching this that you're actually not seeing?

[Amanda Litman]

That's a really good question. You know, most of my work is focused on getting people to run for local office. And I think one of the really meaningful ways that we can push back is by doing good things where we have power. So, like in Cambridge, Massachusetts, they just passed some of the biggest, most wide, sweeping zoning reform in the country.

[Sammy Sage]

What that does very abundance coded well.

[Amanda Litman]

You know, especially on housing. They're onto something here because you think about it just like, especially for young people who are disproportionately renters, the impact on housing is the biggest cost of living issue.

[Sammy Sage]

So we think about psychological.

[Amanda Litman]

It's psychological. It's like, it's not just that I can't afford my house right now. It's that I'm never going to be able to afford a house. And what does that mean about my possibility to, like, build a life for my family and to be able to hand something down to my kids. And I'm so mad at my grandparents who don't understand what this is like because they bought a house in the 60s when, you know, it was very different. This housing reform could 10x the amount of housing built in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was pushed forward by a run for something along Berhan Azim who himself was one of the first renters and only renters elected to the Cambridge City Council. Thick baller. Yes.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, there need to be more renters who are in political office because I think, okay, I had said. I don't remember if you were on when I had said this, when I think the Democratic pillar should be equal rights, affordable housing, and money out of politics. Because I don't think people realize the psychological piece of, of. Of what housing means for people. Yes, it represents this American dream, but it's. There's a reason why, and it's so much more than this. It's that people cannot tether themselves to communities, parent whether they want to be parents, whether they want to be married, whatever it is. You cannot tether yourself to something and see a future where, where there's any sort of stability or like, connection with the people around you or with your, like, your own future if you do not have a stable home that you are sure you will be able to continue living in. So it not just about like, the affordability. It's like the, you know, such the affordability of buying a house. It's the, it's the fact that, like, your rent is just going to keep going up and like, renting isn't a stable plan either. So you're basically kind of just like, have people who are in the back of their minds, like, I could be homeless one day. And like, who is going to invest in a future who wants to keep, like, playing within the system when they're like, this system has fucked me so hard.

[Amanda Litman]

So run for something. Civics, which is our 501c3 arm spoiler here, is going to be doing a bunch around electing more renters and getting more renters to lead. Because in particular, you know, we're talking a little bit earlier about, like, identity. 93% of elected officials are homeowners. That's fascinating. Like, that is not representative of where the American people are. In the New York State Assembly, a state where there are a lot of renters, there are more landlords in the New York State legislature than there are tenants. Even in California, there's only, I think, five people who claim their identity as a renter.

[V. Spear]

And that right there should get you to run for office because this is the whole thing. Yeah. It's not just the renting. Right. And not being sure where you're going to live or how you're going to live. It's being worried about hanging a picture, making the space your own, because what will my landlord charge me when I Move out. It's the fact that you buy furniture or acquire furniture for a rented home that. Not as permanent as the things you bring into your. Your home that you own. Right. You're constantly moving. The cost of moving. What if your roommate moves out and you have to get another roommate? You're. It is. It is. It is a terrible mental state. And it's been so normalized for people because we were sold on the idea that renting is freedom. Right. Or it just. As a person. I bought a house last year for the first time, something I never thought I would ever be able to do and write. The suburbs of Rochester, Very affordable place to buy a house. And you. It is different. They're just. I did. Until you experience it, then you don't realize, like, what 30 years of renting did to my mental health and stability that you just sort of don't realize aren't there anymore once you do own something.

[Amanda Litman]

Well, I'm a renter, and I have two little kids. And thinking about where they're gonna go to school, it's like, I can kind of make a plan, right? Maybe. Hopefully I don't get priced out of my apartment, right?

[Sammy Sage]

And also, like, I think maybe people don't run for office because running for office is a location tethered thing. So it's like, if you don't feel like you're definitely gonna live there, then why would you run? Why would you run for the board of, like, your school, you know, your school or anything? Because it's like, you feel like you might feel. Or other people might feel like, oh, well, that's not definitely permanent. As if people who have homes can't also move. But.

[V. Spear]

But even with the job, I. I didn't want to buy the house. And Natalie's like, why? I'm like, well, what if I get a different job? She's like, babe, this is the job, okay? Like, and it's Rochester. You've been in Rochester the whole five years doing. Under the desk. You're gonna stay doing it here. You're good. This is it. Okay. We're gonna do this. But you. You're always worried, right? Like, about, what if I have to move? What if I have to do whatever? Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Yep.

[Amanda Litman]

Well. And I think it'll be a really powerful way to. To rethink about class solidarity, too, because you can experience very different types of life in very different types of places. It's an issue in rural communities, suburban communities, urban areas. There are, you know, the boomers who want to, like, move out of their starter home move closer to where their grandkids live. And the gen zers who are like, I just graduated from college and I can't afford to live where I want. It is a cross generational, cross class, cross ethnic experience that can really bring new people into the fold. So I am really glad you brought it up, Savie, and really excited about that when we're eventually ready to roll it out more broadly.

[Sammy Sage]

Also cross class because people don't realize that it's not just like, oh, at this level you can't afford a house or at this level there's no inventory. It's like people there, there are no houses to buy at any level of price and the interest rates are so.

[V. Spear]

High on top of it. Right.

[Sammy Sage]

People buying private equity is certainly responsible but there's, I think housing is so much more complicated and also because it's market based where it's like in some places private equity, you know, in some cities private equity have bought up like all these apartments. But in like a suburb, a lot of it has to do with like the people there don't want multi family units or they don't want to build slightly more affordable housing or like you can't get this land or this isn't zone for the school district. There's like so many complicated pieces that it's also like you can't fix it with one policy either.

[V. Spear]

Right.

[Amanda Litman]

But you could start by just building a ton more of it.

[Sammy Sage]

That would actually be the number one thing.

[Amanda Litman]

Yeah, lots of other stuff too. But number one first and foremost is increased supply, inventory.

[V. Spear]

We write a law that says all those, you know, homes that were built in the 50s that you all got to buy for like $30,000 and have lived in for the last 40 years, maybe those houses, houses can only be $50,000 maybe, maybe they shouldn't be going for 400 grand for a two bedroom small 1950s apartment in rural Rochester.

[Sammy Sage]

Or perhaps bring back something like the GI Bill that, that works across races, across genders, across age, student loans.

[V. Spear]

Okay.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm telling you, I grew up in my grandparents house. My grandfather was able to pay for a house in Roslyn, New York which is one of the best public school districts in the country that my family, you know, we moved in with them and if it wasn't for him, go being in the Korean War, getting a cheap mortgage in a new neighborhood that ultimately became a very, you know, an upscale neighborhood. If it wasn't for that, I would not have my education, I would not have gone to Cornell because My high school was a feeder school to Cornell. I wouldn't have started my company. It is like the ripple effect of this I think just giving people a little leg up, even if it's from a parent, you know, it's really makes a whole difference.

[V. Spear]

The Democrats have to say. And that's our platform. Right. We're not going to deal with all of the culture war bullshit that the right pins on us. We're not even going to respond. I will no longer answer questions about if trans 8 year olds can play on a co ed soccer team.

[Sammy Sage]

They stop thinking about kids genitals moving on.

[V. Spear]

Like I'm not the only kid more.

[Sammy Sage]

And the only kids genitals you should be worried about are none your child at the doctor.

[V. Spear]

Right?

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[V. Spear]

But it's like we can't be defined by them. And that's why I think chasing them around and trying to be the left version of the right, of course doesn't work. But yeah, okay, so housing and here's what it is and you project 2029.

[Amanda Litman]

And publish it to zoom out and even a little bit more. Like we talk about authenticity the way that you be authentic is by knowing who you are.

[V. Spear]

Right.

[Amanda Litman]

And that's part of the reason that I think many like Democratic candidates really struggle with this is that you can't perform yourself and all that is a performance, but you can't perform yourself unless you know what, what the core is.

[V. Spear]

Right.

[Amanda Litman]

And that's where we struggle.

[Sammy Sage]

And I think that, I think that that's a huge thing. And I, I honestly feel that that's the reason younger people and Bernie Sanders can do this is because not everyone feels gets the permission in their lifetime to be themselves. And I think that a lot of these like boomer Gen X politicians like were really raised in a place where it's like actually not being yourself is kind of like the way you win. And a lot of millennials and Gen Z were raised in a way where it's like if you're not yourself, you.

[V. Spear]

Are be your own right.

[Sammy Sage]

People can smell it.

[V. Spear]

And so I think it's currency. Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And then I think people kind of exaggerate it and are like, I have to play up this. I'm special, you know, so micro identity.

[Amanda Litman]

And I, I write about this in the book of like what the responsibility is for leaders in particular is like really responsible authenticity, like being yourself in service of a goal. And that doesn't mean don't be yourself. It doesn't mean like don't break your flaws and like Your character and your humanity. It just means knowing, to your point earlier, be like, when to shut the fuck up and when to speak up. And that, that is intentionality. That is strategy. That is also authenticity. And that is like the tension in that is the challenge that all of us face right now. But that's also the work.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, it's true. Well, 42,000 people, Amanda. That is wild. That is wild. Congratulations. Congratulations on the book.

[Amanda Litman]

Thank you.

[Sammy Sage]

Everyone should check it out when we're in charge. I am. I have a little. Little section in there where I talk about working with friends. So it's fun time. Yeah.

[Amanda Litman]

And I got to talk to so many people like Sami about their leadership styles, which was so fun and, like, really stuck with me because it's not just about politics. It's about so much more about what it means to lead right now and work in community spaces, in your nonprofit, in your group, chat, wherever, in a way that like, both is effective and not shitty. Which I think especially right now when everything feels so bad, it's like, really important that the spaces we control feel good.

[V. Spear]

Totally.

[Sammy Sage]

Absolutely.

[V. Spear]

Can't wait for the book. Super excited. Hey, book friends.

[Amanda Litman]

Yay.

[V. Spear]

Well, thanks for stopping by and chat with us. Where else can people find you? They can buy the book and they can find you online. Where?

[Amanda Litman]

AmandaLitm on Instagram and Amanda Lippman basically everywhere else. And you can find Run for Something of unforsomething or Run for Something now, depending on the platform. But we're runforsomething.net online.

[V. Spear]

Yay. All right, thanks, Amanda. We'll talk to you soon. She's so fine. 42,000 people. 42,000. What a thrill. One thing we didn't get to today, so I'm going to shout out my own damn thing is on substack today. I have an article that I think is really important for you guys to read. It is about how Trump canceled the 40 million, $49 million in federal assistance to CASA, which is the court appointed special advocates for literal neglected children and foster kids. And the fact that he may have done it because he thinks that CASA is the CASA that's representing Kilmar Brego Garcia in a lawsuit against him. And you know how DOGE does things. They just search a keyword and then cancel the fucking funding. So read that, let us know what you think and watch us on YouTube because you know we're having a lot of Fun doing the YouTube. Until next time. I'm V. Speer.

[Sammy Sage]

And I'm Sammy Sage.

[V. Spear]

And this is American Fever. Dream.

[Amanda Litman]

Betches.