Books We Read to Cope Ft. Molly Jong-Fast and David Litt

Summary

American Fever Dream: Episode Summary – "Books We Read to Cope Ft. Molly Jong-Fast and David Litt"

Release Date: July 8, 2025
Hosts: V. Spehar and Sami Sage
Guests: Molly Jong-Fast and David Litt

---

Introduction: Navigating Grief and Political Turmoil

In this episode of American Fever Dream, hosts V. Spehar and Sami Sage delve deep into the interplay between personal grief and the chaotic political landscape of 2024. Joined by author Molly Jong-Fast and former Obama speechwriter David Litt, the conversation weaves through themes of family dynamics, addiction, political divisions, and the role of media in shaping public perception.

---

Section 1: The Kennedy Legacy and Catholicism

The episode opens with a poignant discussion on the influence of Catholicism within the Kennedy family, particularly spotlighting JFK's presidency as a milestone for Catholic representation in American politics.

Sammy Sage reflects on the myth-busting revelations from a book about the Kennedy women:

"The way that they treated all the women in the family... it's still relevant because the head of our department of Health and Human Services is a result of that family and all the impunity that they have enjoyed." (02:07)

V. Spehar adds commentary on the pervasive nature of guilt and piety within the family:

"They had so much repression in the way that they functioned. It came out in terms of making inappropriate things acceptable." (04:10)

This segment highlights how deeply ingrained religious values can shape family behavior and public personas, often leading to double standards and hidden struggles.

---

Section 2: Coping with Grief and Addiction – Molly Jong-Fast’s Journey

Transitioning to personal narratives, Molly Jong-Fast shares insights from her bestselling memoir, "How to Lose Your Mother: A Daughter's Memoir." She opens up about a tumultuous year marked by her husband’s cancer diagnosis, her mother's accelerated dementia, and multiple family losses.

Molly discusses the compounded stressors post-COVID and the impact on her mother's mental health:

"I think COVID jump-started her dementia... it's like, why would we? Because it just ruined the world." (09:50)

The conversation delves into the stigma surrounding alcoholism, with Molly emphasizing the importance of destigmatizing addiction by sharing her journey to sobriety:

"I want to destigmatize it... the stories of the boring person who got sober are just as important as the tragic tales." (10:22)

V. Spehar candidly expresses frustration with living around alcoholics, highlighting the often-overlooked daily challenges faced by their families:

"Sometimes it's like, just go to bed, for Christ's sake. I cannot do this." (13:09)

Molly underscores the emotional toll on children of alcoholics, balancing anger with heartbreak over their loved ones' struggles:

"There were so many stories about my mom where things started out well and ended horribly... I was super heartbroken for her in a weird way." (15:04)

This segment offers a raw and honest portrayal of coping mechanisms, the complexities of familial relationships, and the resilience required to navigate grief and addiction.

---

Section 3: Bridging Political Divides – David Litt’s "It's Only Drowning"

David Litt introduces his book, "It's Only Drowning: A True Story of Learning to Surf and the Search for Common Ground," which intertwines his personal journey of learning to surf with his efforts to bridge political gaps with his brother-in-law, Matt Litt.

David explains the genesis of his book amidst growing political tensions:

"I was going through a period of intense depression... surfing was my way of trying to do something new and crazy to get out of it." (19:45)

The discussion explores how surfing became a metaphor for building bridges across ideological divides, emphasizing the importance of shared experiences in fostering understanding:

"We ended up on this... living this phenomenon that it turned out would put Trump back in the White House." (43:32)

Sammy Sage touches on the evolving nature of political alliances and the role of influencers:

"He sort of knows that... their parasocial relationship... is not that they're conservatives. They want to be in control of their own lives." (50:30)

David highlights the shifting dynamics within the MAGA coalition and the potential cracks within traditional Republican bases:

"There's a lot of cracks in that coalition... they're on another level, but there's real cracks in the coalition." (52:56)

This segment underscores the necessity for political parties to adapt and find authentic, relatable ways to engage with diverse voter bases.

---

Section 4: Budgetary Priorities and Policy Critiques

V. Spehar and Sammy Sage pivot to a critical analysis of the 2024 budgetary allocations, expressing concern over misplaced priorities such as the "golden missile defense shield" versus essential social services.

Molly Jong-Fast critiques the colossal funding directed towards defense at the expense of Medicaid:

"Nobody got up there and was like, can we just do a little less for the golden dome?" (30:26)

V. Spehar advocates for reallocation of funds to more pressing areas like the Navy:

"Maybe give them a little better... maybe just say one thing." (31:05)

The hosts dissect the inefficiencies within Congressional budgeting, questioning the rationale behind extravagant military spending when critical infrastructure and social support systems remain underfunded.

---

Section 5: The Role of Media and Modern Political Communication

The conversation shifts to the evolving landscape of media, with references to Anna Wintour's influence and the decline of traditional mainstream media.

Molly Jong-Fast reflects on the transformation of magazines and their diminishing role:

"Magazines really did sort of give up a lot of real estate to... now they can't shape the narrative the way it used to." (38:07)

V. Spehar humorously critiques the notion of personal branding in media:

"V is the media now. Not good. V is tired." (39:16)

The discussion highlights the fragmentation of media influence and the rise of alternative platforms like podcasts and social media in shaping public discourse.

---

Section 6: Strategies for Democratic Engagement and Rebuilding Trust

In the final segments, the hosts and guests deliberate on effective strategies for the Democratic Party to reconnect with disillusioned voters, particularly working-class men and families grappling with economic insecurity.

David Litt emphasizes the need for Democrats to cultivate authentic, entertaining, and relatable personas:

"You have to figure out a way for that to surface... provide that sense of fun and just like being a good hang." (56:18)

Sammy Sage advocates for Democrats to acknowledge their shortcomings and present themselves as approachable and flawed, capable of genuine self-reflection:

"We are not in an okay place... I was here and these problems got worse." (62:07)

The conversation underscores the importance of empathy, transparency, and relatable leadership in bridging the political divide and fostering a more inclusive and effective Democratic strategy.

---

Conclusion: Embracing Vulnerability and Seeking Common Ground

As the episode wraps up, hosts V. Spehar and Sami Sage commend their guests for their candid discussions and emphasize the episode's central theme: the necessity of finding common ground amidst personal and political adversities. They encourage listeners to engage with Molly Jong-Fast's memoir and David Litt's exploration of political reconciliation through the lens of surfing.

Molly Jong-Fast concludes with a heartfelt recommendation:

"It's a wonderful book... very funny, despite the title, and also being... relatable for anyone who's really ever been through anything." (39:34)

David Litt adds a forward-looking note on the potential for personal relationships to influence broader societal changes:

"If you watch those people emerge, that's why we do primaries. That's important." (58:08)

The episode closes on a hopeful note, urging listeners to seek understanding and connection in both their personal lives and the larger political arena.

---

Key Takeaways

• Family and Religion: The Kennedy family's Catholicism significantly influenced their personal and political lives, often leading to hidden struggles and double standards.

• Coping with Grief and Addiction: Personal narratives highlight the complexities of navigating grief and addiction, emphasizing the importance of destigmatizing mental health and substance abuse issues.

• Bridging Political Divides: Personal relationships across political lines can foster understanding and common ground, showcasing the potential for unity amidst division.

• Budget Priorities: Critical analysis of governmental budget allocations reveals misplaced priorities, advocating for greater investment in social services over extravagant military spending.

• Media Evolution: The decline of traditional media and the rise of alternative platforms reshape how political narratives are formed and disseminated.

• Democratic Strategy: For the Democratic Party to regain trust and expand its base, it must embrace authenticity, relatability, and a willingness to acknowledge and rectify past shortcomings.

---

Final Notes:
To stay updated with the latest episodes and news, subscribe to Betches Media’s Sup email newsletter at betches.com/newsletters and follow them on Instagram @betches_news. For more engaging content, watch American Fever Dream on YouTube here.

Transcript

[V. Spear]

If you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple shop pay button you see at checkout? The one that makes buying so incredibly easy?

[Sammy Sage]

That's Shopify.

[V. Spear]

And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it. Because Shopify makes it incredibly easy to start and run your own business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Shopify's got you from the get go with beautiful ready to go templates to match your brand style. Tackle all the important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. Spread your brand's word with built in marketing and email tools to find and keep new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less cards being abandoned, it's time for you to.

[Sammy Sage]

Head over to Shopify.

[V. Spear]

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start sell selling today at shopify.com batches. Go to shopify.com batches shopify.com batches.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Rise.

[V. Spear]

And Shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm V. Spear.

[Sammy Sage]

And I'm Sammy Sage.

[V. Spear]

And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betch's News, your official Judeo Catholic podcast. We are, we are living in unprecedented times and leaning on our collective religious trauma to get us through it. Here we are truly.

[Sammy Sage]

Truly. I mean, we had to brand it that way because that's.

[V. Spear]

There was no other way.

[Sammy Sage]

This has become.

[V. Spear]

It is. People are like, are you Catholic? I'm like, well, I mean, I was baptized and I did all the. I did my turn, you know, I did all the sacraments and everything. So yeah, I think I get to keep it. Is it like, are you a ball player? Like, you know, I, I would play. I pitched in softball. Once a ball player, always a ball player. I'm a baller. You know.

[Sammy Sage]

V. The reason I wanted to bring this up is because over the weekend I was reading this book about, it's called Ask not about the Kennedy women that, you know, the, the way that they treated all the women in the family.

[V. Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And it really was one of those like, myth busting books about just how the family conducts itself. And unfortunately it's still relevant because the head of our department of Health and Human Services is a result of that family and all the impunity that they have enjoyed. But the reason I wanted to bring it up is because the Catholicism, you know, we all. We all know that jfk, JFK was the first Catholic president obviously relevant to this, to this Judeo Catholic podcast, and that that had been a goal of his father, Joe Kennedy's. And something that I realized is that it's not just that they're, like, Catholic. Oh, they happen to be that denomination. Their streak of Catholicism and their. The way that it's sort of imbued in the family is. Cannot be separated. It is instrumental, not incidental, to the things that they have done and the way that they have acted. Like, for example, JFK's parents were. Their parents were. His parents married, like rivals in the Democratic Party in Boston, Massachusetts. But they were bonded because they were Catholics and that they hated the Protestant establishment. And so it's really, like, in there. But then there's also this streak of, like, guilt and piety. And, like, the women were not allowed to. Would be shunned if they lost their virginity before marriage or if they married outside of Mar. There. One of JFK siblings is Kick Kennedy, who maybe people wouldn't know much about, but she was disowned by her family because she fell in love with someone who wasn't Catholic. Yet. The boys get to do whatever they want, have sex with whoever they want, male or female, male or female, kill whoever that maybe allegedly whoever they want. They will cheat on their wives. They will. And they will be covered for. And it was, like, accepted. It was.

[V. Spear]

You just go to confession, Sammy, say a couple Hail Marys, you're good to go.

[Sammy Sage]

Like, Jackie Kennedy had a stillborn, and JFK was in Europe on a yacht partying with women. And it was. And the only reason that he went back eventually is because one of his friends said that you'll never get to be president if you don't go back. Because. And it was like, all driven by just appearances and legal manipulation and connections. And a lot of it was just, like, that they had so much repression in the way that they functioned. Like, and it came out in terms of making inappropriate things acceptable. And, yeah, these people really.

[V. Spear]

They gave the lobotomy to the wrong person, is what I'm hearing.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, my gosh. The lobotomy is. Her siblings didn't know where she went for years. They were just like, oh, she's gone.

[V. Spear]

I'm working on this piece for Substack that is about, like, things you don't know about lobotomies. And it's quite interesting. And Rosemary's lobotomy comes up because she was supposed to be the first celebrity lobotomy that was supposed to prove that this was like an incredible thing. And actually the inventor of the lobotomy really didn't want to do it. He was like, she's actually not a great candidate. Like there's, you'll have to wait for the sub stack. But there's a lot. Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And the crazy thing with the religion is that they justify all of it using religion. They won't be the first, they won't be the last.

[V. Spear]

Just like they do now. Exactly.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[V. Spear]

You know, tragedy happens and all we know how to do is pray. And I'm like, maybe you should legislate. Maybe you could write a law that would stop people from, you know, being victims of gun violence or natural disasters.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. Otherwise, what is the point of this free will that God gave you?

[V. Spear]

I know.

[Sammy Sage]

No, but no, they were very prayer. It was all like the women were always just praying and staying quiet. But not on this show.

[V. Spear]

It's our book club episode. We have two authors on today. The first is Molly John Fast, who's going to be talking about her book.

[Sammy Sage]

Molly's book is back on the bestsellers list again. It's called how to lose your mother A daughter's memoir. It is such an a moving book, really. It's very funny despite the title. It is honestly like if anyone's going through just sort of like the day to day sludge of grief which V and I, as you've heard us discuss, know well, this is in a weird way an uplifting book. So highly recommend it. Molly's going to be on next and then after that we are going to be with our second guest, David Litt, a former Obama speechwriter whose most recent book it's only drowning, A true story of learning to surf and the search for common ground is is out now. This was also a hilarious book. So first you're going to hear our conversation with Molly and then we'll be back with David. When you hear Lululemon, you probably think of Align yoga pants weightlessly soft, like you're wearing next to nothing. That's why you see them in class, at the grocery store and in the park. But did you know about skirts with built in liner shorts so you can still jump for the Frisbee and tanks and bodysuits with Align's iconic stretch, you won't want to take it off. And with endless style options, you don't have to shop in store or [e-mail].

[David Litt]

4Th of July Savings are here at.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

The Home Depot so it's time to get your grilling on.

[David Litt]

Pick up The Traeger Pro Series 22.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Pellet Grill and Smoker now on special.

[David Litt]

Buy for $389 or was $5.49.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Smoke a rack of ribs or bake an apple pie.

[David Litt]

This grill is versatile enough to do.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

It all this summer.

[V. Spear]

No matter how you like your steaks, your barbecues are guaranteed to be well done. Celebrate 4th of July with fast free delivery on select grills right now at the Home Depot.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Sub YouTube to availability.

[V. Spear]

You have a famous mom, as Sammy said, and you wrote a book about it.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes.

[V. Spear]

How was that?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Just generally some people have have written about the famous mother part of the book. The most of the book is actually about like my worst year. So basically my year I had this year where my, my husband got cancer, got diagnosed with a mass on his pancreas and my mother had dementia and had to be put into. I couldn't take care of her. And my stepfather died of Parkinson's, but he really died of congestive heart failure and my father in law died and my aunt died. No, no. It was a really bad year. And during this year every like everything bad that I had ever worried about basically. I mean not everything, but like a lot of bad stuff happened and at. Towards. And it was so.

[Sammy Sage]

And it was Covid.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

No, it was a little past Covid. It was like about two years past post Covid. It was 2023, 2022.

[Sammy Sage]

Okay, why did I think it was like. Why did I think there were Covid parts or. Oh, you had said that they never really kind of recovered from COVID Recovered.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

From COVID Yes, that's right.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

And I think Covid. What I think Covid did to my mom's dementia because there was, you know how there were. There was a lot of writing about how day there was. It was hard to differentiate different days, you know, because everything was so similar. I think it got her in a kind of like. I think it jump started, you know, the COVID did a bunch of things that we have not really talked about at all because why would we. Because it just ruined the world.

[Sammy Sage]

And so best to compartmentalize it and pretend it didn't happen.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

We're over it. One of the things it did was it made it sort of kickstarted her. I mean I think she was demented and I think she was always gonna have dementia because my grandmother had it and also because she took handfuls of Valium, and Valium is very. You know, those benzos are really bad for memory and really can. I mean, there's just kind of addictive. Well, very addictive too, but tons of evidence. And then she's also an alcoholic.

[V. Spear]

But she sounds like a good time, though. Molly. I gotta say, I feel like, look, as the side person, I know as the daughter of. Very difficult.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah.

[V. Spear]

But as the side person, I feel like she would have been a good time.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Fun. Yeah, no, very. For the good years. Very fun. But I got sober when I was 19, and so I always want to talk about alcoholism because I want to destigmatize it, because I think of it as. I mean, this is where I get really boring and very. But, you know, but I think it's important we talk about it because not many. There are. I don't know how many. Like, a lot of times you'll learn about alcoholism when a famous person is like, flaming out and going to rehab and then not getting sober and then killing themselves or like, you know, like that kind of thing. And you won't necessarily hear about alcoholism. Like, for the people who like, go to rehab at 19, get sober or stay sober for 27 years are like, pretty boring. Don't you know? Like, Anne Heche is a great example. Like, I don't know if she was an addict or an alcoholic, but like, there was a lot of stories of like, you know, doing very crazy, destructive behavior, including driving her car into a house and burning to death. And like those, you know, those stories get more traction than like the stories of like, the boring person who went to AI and got sober. And like, you know, so that's why I talk about it.

[Sammy Sage]

Did you happen to read. There were a few years ago, there was a very popular book, Quit Like a Woman by Holly Whitaker. And she really, she. She didn't do aa, but she really, like, changed my view on the way I think about alcoholism and addiction, that it's not this, like, extreme. It's not always this like, extreme rock bottom. Like, sometimes it's just you're not really functioning.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I mean, I'm always a little suspicious. Suspicious, the wrong word. I got sober in AA and so I like, practice a program of abstinence, which means no, like recreational marijuana or anything.

[Sammy Sage]

California, Sober.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Right. Some of those people who like, have sort of new. I mean, I don't know, like a woman. Because I didn't read it.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, no, she's like, so sober. So.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

So that's good. I definitely agree with the Idea that you don't. You can get off the elevator at any time and it's just going one direction. And like, the truth is, if you think you have a problem with alcohol, you have a problem with alcohol. Because normal people, like, I'm married to someone who's non alcoholic and like, you know, when, I mean, he's in remission now, but like, he, you know, he would be like, he would be like, I'm never, you know, if I said to him, you could never drink again, he'd be like, good. You know, I had cancer, you know, like, so I don't think, I think that if you're. If you're really struggling with your relationship with substances, you. If you have a relationship with substances, you're probably an alcoholic.

[V. Spear]

Can I tell you what I find really annoying about alcoholism? Because I know we're supposed to be so kind to everybody who's struggling with different things, but sometimes it fucking annoys the shit out of me. Okay, not in this woke.

[Sammy Sage]

It's anti woke era.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah, anti woke.

[V. Spear]

There are some really annoying things that alcoholics do that just absolutely pissed me the fuck off. And I don't think we talk about it enough. Like the fact that they always get to kind of like have a good day or get a ton of grace, or like the party ends and the night goes on and you're dealing with things like your parent continuing to party after the party is over. You're dealing with your aunts and uncles coming over and thinking your house is the most fun house to ever be at. And you're like, I have to hold my breath the entire fourth of July to wait for this to be over. Because then the second party happens at the end of that. And it's like, we don't have enough books about what it's like to just live around an alcoholic who is oftentimes maybe because they're drunk or whatever the case may be, but they're so insular and focused inward on their own gratification. And we see it in terms of like, you know, the movies are like, oh, they're drunk or they're abusive, or this or that or the other. They're fucking annoying. Sometimes it's like, just go to bed, for Christ's sake. I cannot do this, for I already did the whole party. Now I gotta do the after party too? Like, did you have moments like that where you're like, I wanna create for people to be like, I actually don't have grace for your. Your disorder right now. I have a lot of like, you're fucking annoying me. You're really, like, getting. I'm getting heated now because I'm having memories, right? But, like, it's so exhaustive sometimes for the person that's the survivor.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

When you talk to children of alcoholics or spouse of alcoholics, they hate their qualifier. They're so mad at them. I mean, and it's funny because it's like, here I am, I'm 46. So I've been an adult for 30 years, maybe 28 years. And, you know, I'm writing this book, and I'm thinking to myself, like, you are an adult. So, like, you have.

[Sammy Sage]

You.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

You know, you have to be done with your childhood. Like, well, I'm working on. I'm thinking, like, your childhood is over. Not only is it. It's not over for five years, it's over for longer than it existed. And one of the things that I noticed when I was writing this book was, like, there were so many stories about my mom where it was like, things started out well and ended, like, just horribly, you know? Like, she would get so excited about something, and then she'd get drunk and ruin it. And she. You know, like, it's actually like, as much as I know I was super mad at her, I also was, like, just super heartbroken for her in a weird way, because it was like, so many times she was her own worst enemy. And, like, it did feel at some points, I was like, am I. And I mean, obviously the book is not like this, but part of me was like, am I writing the big book? Like, it just. Every time she would just, you know, things would be okay, and then she'd end up drunk, and she'd end up ruining something. So. And, you know, for me, I'm really lucky because I got sober before I had kids, so they never saw me drunk. And they find me very annoying. I mean, I am a very, very annoying mother. And in fact, they call. You know, they call me a smother. Like, they are like, you know, I.

[Sammy Sage]

Wish I saw that when I needed it.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

One of my kids is like, you're just very overbearing. I just want you to know my siblings and I know that you are very overbearing. And I'm like, damn right. I'm like. And by the way, my favorite thing to say to them is, like, you would not last a day in my childhood. Like, you would.

[Sammy Sage]

It's funny, I always said that to my mom. I was like, you're obsessed with me. Like, why are you so. Literally, that was just Always. Why are you so obsessed with me? And I. It. I realized, like, it wasn't that she was obsessed obsessed with me. It's that she wanted. It's like an avoidant trying to be with an anxious, you know, attachment, kind of.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

But I also think a good mom is, like, always slightly a stalker.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm sorry, you have to. Because it's a child. What do they know?

[V. Spear]

I'm in reverse. My mother was the avoidant one. We were obsessed with her. I think it's because we were constantly trying to tap dance for her attention or approval or something. And to this day, I call her five to seven times a day, and I'm like, what are you doing? And she's like, I'm. I don't know. What are you. Why are you calling me? And I'm like, I just want to know what you were up to still. And when you just said your childhood is over, I think that made grow up in this exact moment where I'm like, huh, I am 42, and I should probably, like, deal with some of my relationship.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I actually think we are. We don't hit maturity till a little older now. I think it hits maybe 45ish. I think 45 is when. Yeah, maybe 35. 45.

[Sammy Sage]

10 more years.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

There's like a cliff at 45 where you start looking older. You know about this?

[David Litt]

Yes.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

So I think I. Yeah, there's like, two of these aging clips. I don't know if it's true. I read it in the New York Times, so I assume it's true. I read it on Instagram, so 45 and 60.

[V. Spear]

Oh.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

And at 45, I noticed I had never had bags under my eyes. And I was like, I have never. What are these bags that everyone's talking about? This is always how I am. I'm like, I don't have them. They must not be real. And then, like, I turned 45, and that day I was like, oh, what happened under my eyes? This is not good. I didn't know about this. There you go.

[V. Spear]

But that's how I felt at 33. They say 33 is a rough year. That's your Jesus year. Even Jesus found 33 hard. I felt like 33 was the most difficult, find it hard, transformative, hard year of my entire life. I was never the same after 33. Granted, I had your worst year was 2023. My worst year was 2015, which is when I turned 33. Similar thing where it was like, people could not stop dying. People could not stop having problems. I felt Like, I got fired from a job that I thought I would have forever. It was like, goober. You're like. Your life is just spiraling out of control, and you become sort of a witness to your life where you're like, well, I'm gonna wake up today and wait for the bad thing to happen, because I'm just in this, like, perpetual survival mode. And I felt like that aged me. I could look at a picture 32 to 34, and be like, ooh, that was a clip.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

That's what I really wanted to ask you, Molly. You wrote about just the worst things that could ever happen. And the whole time I was watching you on TV as if nothing was wrong. Like, you were just making. You know, you were on tv, you were writing, you were on Twitter. How did you actually, like, get through all those days and just function?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

So. So some of it was like, I actually did go to sleep at nine o'clock every single night. So I'd be like. So I'd be like, I want to die. I'm going to sleep.

[Sammy Sage]

So sleep does become very pleasant.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah, I slept a lot. I ate a lot of ice cream. I was very committed to just not. You know, I would cry sometimes on the way to things. Like, I cry in the morning on the way to TV hits sometimes. I mean, I just, you know, I was. I mean, what. I think my stupid. The superpower of being sober is that I can, like, have bad feelings and not act out on them. So, like, I can, you know, because, like, sometimes when people are going through things, they feel like they have, like, it's not even. They feel like they have to. They can't keep the one. The sort of tragicomedy from, like, overlapping into, like, work, you know? And what I think is good about being sober is, like, I can just sort of process the emotions and just sort of keep going, which I think is good. But I definitely had times where I was like, this is too much the.

[V. Spear]

Particular weird stuff you do during grief. Like, you said you were sober through this whole thing, and you had to be. I didn't have a problem with alcoholism, but I sure did like it. I enjoyed it. And I got. I remember one day being like, you have to be sober through this or you will fall off the end of the earth. I wouldn't take a Benadryl or a Tylenol because I was so afraid that if I wasn't stone cold dead sober, I would fall off the edge of the earth because the grief was so tremendous and the unpredictability of the world and became so overwhelming where it was like, anybody could die at any second. You could get fired from your job at any minute. There is no stability. Everything's crazy. You must be sober so you could focus.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

What's been very cool about this book is that, you know, I've done these readings, I went on tour, and people would. They readings quickly become like a therapy session where we all talk about our parents. And, like, a lot of times people had come to the reading, having read the book, and were like, you know, talking to me about how they had had parents who had, you know. So when I was like, signing the book, you know, people would be like, well, my mom is into this and my dad is into that. And then sometimes people would come and they'd be like, I'm an only child. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, man. Because that can worst. Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

How did you deal with that being like, just who do you. Who's your person to go to? Like, what do you do?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I got married young, so I was like. I would be like, what the fuck am I going to do? I would ask my husband. But, yeah, well, there's nobody, you know, when you're. I mean, that's when these women would come to me was so interesting. And I went to a. I did a reading in California, and this woman came to me and she's like, I moved my mother in with me when she was 82 because she had dementia. She was like. She lived another decade. She was like, it ruined my marriage, I'm sure. And I was like, oh, man. You know, so, like, it is. It's a very, very interesting book to have written because the. What. The sort of relationship I have with these people who have read it and who have processed it and who have also lived it.

[V. Spear]

I lived with dementia. We. It's tricky. So, like, you say the person came and my mom did hospice care, and my uncle came to live with us, and he had dementia. We thought it would be like six weeks, but my mom's like, real good. So he lived seven years with us, but I was in high school. That's what I'm talking about.

[Sammy Sage]

It's uncorrelated with the body. That's like the freakiest thing. Like, you feel that they. You're like, how are they. How. How are they functioning?

[V. Spear]

Well, we made it fun. I don't know if this was. I don't know if this is good advice to people who are tuned in to the dementia and death conversation today, but my family's very Magical and very, like, whimsical in many ways. And so what we did is my mom would put notes all over his room and say, you're Hugh Kelly. You're this. That, the other. This is what's going on. We took down all the mirrors. There were no mirrors in our house. Because if he saw himself old, he would freak out. He thought he was young. He used to cry because he didn't think he'd ever have children. And then he lived in a house with children. So we would just pretend to be his kids. He would sometimes pretend that it was the one. He never had children, and he always wanted them. And he used to look at us and be like, I'm just so grateful I didn't think I had kids. And we'd be like, yep, we're yours. You know, we would just move along. What were we gonna do? But the plane. And I don't. I'm not. I don't know if this is good advice or not advice, but it was, like, a fun story. He thought my dad was, like, one of the workers from the house. He. He didn't think. He thought my mom was a worker. He knew. He thought we were his kids. He made up all different kind of things, but we would take care of him, and he lived with us, sort of almost like a pet.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah.

[V. Spear]

I don't know how else to explain it, because we were children. And so, you know, sometimes we. Sometimes it was World War II, man. And we had to deliver the mail because he was the postman for the Navy. Sometimes we would just address letters all day. Sometimes we would go outside and play soccer with him. And these. Sometimes he would want to look at the animals because he had gone to Cornell, and he would talk to us about animals, and he thought he was teaching at Cornell again. And we just lived this insane life that I've truly never talked about. But it was full of whimsy for him and for my parents and whatnot. And when I look back on it, it is some of the most fun parts of my life. But it was really difficult. I'm sure it was difficult for my parents, marriage to have this going on.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

It was insane way to grow up.

[V. Spear]

But the other thing that was fun is he, for whatever reason, was very wealthy. I'm not sure how he swung that because no one in my family had money but him, but he did. So he would, like, want to go to the city. He had a girlfriend in Manhattan. Her name was Vassy. She was French and lived on Second Avenue. We would go visit her. He would like. We would, like, go to a show while he, like, I don't know, I guess hooked up with his girlfriend on the Second Avenue apartment. And then we bring him back home to Connecticut. One time we went to see Swing the Musical and he was sitting like 15 rows back. It was the matinee. We get out, he goes over to the box office, buys an entire another round of tickets so he could sit in the front row because he couldn't see good. Like, my life was crazy under dementia. I've never talked about it, but it was, you know, it was a different way of handling it. There was like a lot of tragedy and certainly there were a lot of really bad days for him, but it was like it. I don't know, we just pretended like everything he thought was real was real. And it was like growing up in Neverland and some ways this sounds like.

[Sammy Sage]

A Gabriel Garcia Marquez novel. Is that the name of the author?

[David Litt]

Now at Chipotle, our all new Chipotle Honey chicken brings Chipotle heat with a touch of sweet seared smoked peppers and savory Mexican spices blended with a hint of pure honey for a perfectly balanced sauce. All combined with fresh tender chicken hot off the grill, served up in your favorite burrito or bowl. New Chipotle Honey Chicken takes heat and sweet to a whole new level. But it's only at Chipotle for a limited time order. Now in the app for pickup or delivery. Chipotle for real.

[Sammy Sage]

Hey there, travelers.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Kaley Cuoco here.

[Sammy Sage]

Sorry to interrupt your music, great artist, BT Dubs, but wouldn't you rather be there to hear it live? With Priceline, you can get out of your dreams and into your dream concert. They've got millions of travel deals to get you to that festival, gig, rave, sound bath, or sonic experience you've been dreaming of. Download the Priceline app today and you can save up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights. So don't just dream about that trip. Book it with Priceline.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Go to your happy price.

[V. Spear]

Priceline. I don't know if that's the right thing to do, but why not? It created a lot of peace in the house.

[Sammy Sage]

What I want to know, like, what is the. What is the right thing to do?

[V. Spear]

What is the right thing to do?

[Sammy Sage]

Like, especially. And I mean, we were, we were going to talk to you about, like, the grief of the big beautiful bill and.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Let's talk about that.

[Sammy Sage]

I don't really understand what people are going to do. Like, physically, I do not get it.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

So what's interesting about the bbb, which I find amazing, is that it cuts like a billion dollars for Medicaid, right? Which means rural hospital closure, nursing home closure, everybody knows about that. Then it cuts, you know, food stamps. I'm not sure exactly what the number is, but certainly. And adds all sorts of ways to make it harder to get food stamps, to make it harder to get a Medicaid, to make it harder to stay on Medicaid. But the thing that I think is what we don't talk enough about with the BBB is that while it cuts a billion dollars for Medicaid, it puts. It's like 43 billion. And I'm not sure this number is right. It might be 46, $43 billion to ICE. Okay, right. So here's my question. And then like $50 billion to the golden missile defense shield that Donald Trump has cooked up. Now, I just want to point out the idea here is to have a missile defense shield the way Israel does, okay? We are a country that is surrounded by Mexico and Canada, neither of which have any interest in doing short range missiles against us. So where are these missiles coming from? I'm sorry to be, like, pedantic.

[Sammy Sage]

He just likes the. I think first of all that he thinks there's a physical dome over Israel.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

That maybe he can't see 100% and.

[Sammy Sage]

He wants one over us. That's gold, right?

[V. Spear]

To the point that he's saying that it would go into Canada and Mexico and they should have to pay for part of it.

[Sammy Sage]

What about this bigger issue that, like, they think that spending so much on military force and is the answer when warfare these days is conducted online is conducted through political means, through diplomacy and through trade. So why are they spending all this money? I mean, I understand why they're spending the money on ice, but why spend it on, like classic defense when you need cybersecurity, you need people guarding the ports, but you're.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I don't want to go to the sane part. I just want to do another minute on a golden dome, okay? The country is enormous, okay? Is Alaska gonna be in the Dome? Is Hawaii gonna be in the Dome? Are we just gonna say fuck Hawaii because they're a blue state? Are we gonna say fuck Alaska? I mean, Alaska has a lot of oil, so where does this dome go and what is it protecting us from? Is it protecting us from Mexico? Is it protecting us from Canada? Is it protecting us from Iran? Because they are quite far away.

[Sammy Sage]

Is Iran protected from us given how far we are?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I mean, But I'm just saying, like, the whole thing is. And like, nobody got up there was like, what if we do $52 billion for the golden dome and not cut Medicaid? There was nobody who got up there and was like, can we just do a little less for the golden dome?

[V. Spear]

The whole budget for the United States Navy is $58 billion. Okay. That includes stuff for the Marines and whatnot. If we were to give 52 extra billion to the Navy, which also includes the Marines and maybe the Coast Guard too. You don't need a dome. You could protect the seas a little bit better. Maybe give them a little better. Bah. Maybe we could get the commissary to be decent on bases.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Can we just say one thing? I just want to get back to the dome for a minute. I know I'm being myopic here, but like, so we had members of Congress didn't argue against the golden dome stuff. I think, look, I didn't watch all the hours of C Span, so maybe there were hours where people were much.

[Sammy Sage]

About the dome against the dome.

[V. Spear]

The money's just going to Raytheon and Lockheed and they've got stock in that. So it doesn't matter what the dome is.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Right. And. And also like, you're. Because you're not supposed to be anti defense. But I can be anti stupid. Like, there's no. There's no there there. Right. Like I. Fine, you defend all you want to defend, but like, what the fudge is this?

[Sammy Sage]

I think it's like the sky version of building the wall.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

It's like that's what isn't even there. It's like the. The other thing. Yeah. When you look at all of their.

[V. Spear]

All of.

[Sammy Sage]

All of the way the money is like allocated and I didn't even really look into this like that specific 900 pages.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

And let me tell you. You know who else didn't read it? Congress of our legislators.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, yeah.

[V. Spear]

The.

[Sammy Sage]

Okay, they give whatever billions for ice, but there's only like, there's not really anything for immigration judges. So they're raising the number of immigration judges from 700 to 800. And the rest of it is just for arresting people. But there's no. They're basically saying we're not going to enable due process in any way, but with this budget, they could create an amazing legal immigration system.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

No, they're not good.

[V. Spear]

No, they're going to deputize National Guardsmen who are fucking 18 years old to be immigration judges.

[Sammy Sage]

And did you hear Big Balls is back At Social Security.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Oh, wait, Big Balls is back. I thought he was out.

[Sammy Sage]

He's back. He's now a special government employee at Social Security. He's going to be optimizing the website.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah. Here's where we're all gonna die. Here's where this is going. But I have to tell you, I mean, I'm the one bright spot in our dumpster fire that is American Dema. It's not quite democracy anymore. It's Dema is. We're just. The one bright spot is the America party.

[V. Spear]

Oh, Elon's new party.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah. I'm pretty fucking psyched. And I saw that he started following Andrew Yang over the weekend.

[V. Spear]

Oh. I asked Sammy. I was like, who's going to head to Andrew Yang? What are we going to do?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Of course I love that fucking guy. He's from season one.

[Sammy Sage]

Honestly, I would take ubi. UBI was a.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Is actually with AI forgetting ubi. Listen to me. It's never. Here's what Andrew Yang is going to do. Take money from Elon. Here's what Elon is going to do. Give money to Andrew.

[V. Spear]

Well, do you think Trump will take his citizenship or his SpaceX contracts? Give him to Bezos?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Maybe. I don't know. You know? God, you know, it's yet another thing that's both bad for democracy, but also kind of funny.

[V. Spear]

Ivanka was at the wedding, right? Ivanka and Jared were at the Bezos wedding. He could easily hand those over to Blue Origins or whatever it's called, by.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

The way, that Bezos wedding.

[V. Spear]

Money can't buy class, really, but it.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Can buy a lot of hotel rooms in Italy.

[Sammy Sage]

But, like, it can. Honestly, nothing is more offensive to me than the way these billionaires choose to billionaire.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I mean, it's just stupid because it's like, all you'd have to do is give, like, 5% of your income, passive income, on your wealth to charity. And people would think you were the most generous person in the world. Like, if you just gave your change that what you spend on gardening to kids with cancer, people would think you were a hero.

[Sammy Sage]

Also, if you were less tacky about it in public, like, just do it in private like that. That's what I can't wrap my mind around. It's like, because you can do anything you want at that level of money, so everything you choose to do is your choice. So everything that you do reveals something about your choices and who you are, because you. You can do anything. So when you choose to make things that tacky and that selfish, you're just demonstrating for the world that you suck.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I mean, I just think I, you know, I have a sort of less nuanced view of it, which is just give the bare minimum to charity in the usual flashy way that rich people have for centuries. And then people won't hate you. Like, it's so easy. Like, that's the thing that kills me. It's so easy. Like, rich people have been doing this forever. They've been screwing over poor people and giving money to charity so the poor people don't get mad at them. Like, this is how it works. The only difference is this crop of billionaires were like, nah, we're not gonna give what is essentially a rounding error to charity. Because it seems like a lot of work.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, the effect of altruism didn't trickle down. Do you think that Anna Wintour quit Vogue so she wouldn't have to be the publisher of Sanchez's wedding dress photo? It was, it was not lost. I mean, she quit like the day before that cover came out.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I mean, she's still the like. As I am an employee of Conde Nast because I write for Fanny Fair and I'm a columnist there. So I. I don't totally feel comfortable but speaking about any of that. But I will say she's still like the head of a lot of it. So just like the day to day, she like, I mean, what's cool about her and why I have been like, pretty. I mean, you know, she's been doing this for a long time and she's a woman.

[Sammy Sage]

She's very impressive.

[V. Spear]

I have no hate for her. I just like picturing her at her desk like, you know what? Fuck all y'.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

All.

[V. Spear]

I did this for all these years. You want to put her on the COVID I'm done. I'm going to relax in my ears.

[Sammy Sage]

B. I will say that Amy o', Dell, who wrote a book about Anna Wintour, answered this question from. With her opinion. And she. I, I'll defer to her opinion because she is more well versed in this. She basically said that she doesn't think that that is the case. That it just happened to coincide.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I think she runs. One of the things that's. That's amazing about her is she runs an enormous business and she's managed. One of the things that has made me so distraught is that, you know. Cause I come from magazines because I'm that old. I. Magazines really did sort of give up a lot of real estate to. And you know, they had. And you know, back in the 90s women's magazines had really smart essays, some reporting that was actually quite good. Like, Vogue had some amazing reporting. I mean, and it also had, you know, pictures and shopping. And they were. It was a way to sort of get tips. Right. It contained multitudes, just like all of us. We can like to shop, but also want to read about, you know, global conflicts.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, it's like Playboy for the articles.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes. Except with shopping. And so she has managed to capture some of that business, which I think has been. Is quite impressive, because for whatever reason, magazines couldn't get online quickly enough. And so they lost some of that. I don't know. You know, it's funny because there's this book called Backlash by Susan Faludi. And it's an old book, but it is brilliantly brilliant, and it is worth reading because it's like a feminist book, Backlash. And it talks about how. And it's. A lot of it is criticism about advertising and the mainstream media. And it's odd to read it now when the mainstream media doesn't really exist the way it used to. I mean, it doesn't have the power it did. It doesn't have the money it did. It can't shape the narrative the way it used to. It's really not powerful. I mean, if we saw anything from the 2024 cycle, it's that, you know, Joe Rogan has a lot more power than most mainstream media outlets.

[V. Spear]

Yeah. Per Elon Musk. You are the media now. There is the media.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

We are the media now.

[V. Spear]

V is the media. V is the media.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Not good. Not good.

[V. Spear]

V is tired. V should not be the media. So Fi's gonna take a rest.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Thank you guys for having me.

[V. Spear]

Thank you for being here. Molly, Jong. Pass. Tell folks what is the name of the book and where can they find it?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

It's called how to Lose youe Mother. It's actually back on the New York Times bestseller list.

[V. Spear]

Hey, girl.

[David Litt]

Not an incredible book.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

It's an audiobook of it. And, like, honestly, I think the way to read it is just to listen to the audiobook, which is technically reading. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, and it's just because I read it and because it's. I think people like it.

[Sammy Sage]

So it's a wonderful book. I highly recommend. It's very funny, despite the title, but also being.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Well, my friend Kara Price said. From. Kara Price, who's the greatest, said it's a Jewish beach read because it's.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, my God, It's a little sad.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

It's a beach read, but there's a lot of illness and death.

[Sammy Sage]

It's amazing. It's actually so. That's so true. But I think everyone can relate. Or anyone who's really ever been through anything.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Parents.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, parents. Which we all have.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes.

[Sammy Sage]

Thank you so much, Molly. This has been an incredible time. David, congrats on the book. Thank you. I have to know, what does your brother in law think?

[David Litt]

Well, let me start by describing the book a little bit to people who are listening. The book is basically, it's funny, Sammy, you were one of the first people who read an advanced copy who was a non surfer. And I was really nervous when I had sent you an advance copy because I was like, yes, it's technically a book about me learning to surf, but it's also got this story about friendship and with my crazy brother in law who loves Joe Rogan, among many other things. And it's I think insightful about where our politics are today. And it's all this different things going on in addition to surfing. And so the fact when you first got back to me and were like, I really like the book, I was like, okay, phew. You know, a non surfer has blessed it.

[Sammy Sage]

And I want to say that I read it before the election, before there was this whole line of like we need to, we need our own Joe Rogan, before there was even this idea that the left should reach out to people like this. So it felt like I immediately once Trump won and that became the discourse thought of your book because honestly when I was like, I was like, I'm going to read a book about surfing. But then I started like reading even the first few pages, I was like, oh, this isn't really about surfing. It's very interesting. But it, I think it's one of those books that really does not to be cheesy, have potential to bridge the divide.

[David Litt]

I wrote this really as a semi retirement from politics originally. So I, you know, I wrote speeches for Obama, I worked on the correspondence dinners, I did that sort of thing. I still work in and around politics. But I was like, this is, I'm just a surfer now. I want to write a book that's purely about surfing and surfing with my crazy brother in law Matt. And then the election was happening around the time that I was working on the book and I realized that Matt and I are on the opposite sides of all of the fault lines that are dividing our country. So I mean as the, the campaign was taking place in 2024 and even before that I was seeing this happen in Real time where I was like, oh, I'm actually without meaning to living this thing, this phenomenon that it turned out would put Trump back in the White House. My wife calls this book hillbilly elegy for people who hate hillbilly elegy. Right. It's like if you want to understand how we got here, but also you deeply dislike J.D. vance. That is kind of how I think I ended up with this. And so the politics is sort of like just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in and it's been really like the tide. Exactly. I feel like it's a success if I can get you speaking in tortured surf metaphors because that's now how I speak.

[V. Spear]

I need to know the structure of this because I didn't read this book. So this will be fun for me in the audience who didn't read the book but have questions about the book. When you say, so you learned to surf and you built bridges with, I'm assuming your sister's husband.

[David Litt]

My wife's younger brother.

[V. Spear]

I am confused, my friend, because. Because I don't know that I could do that. Describe. Yeah, describe him to us. So this is the woman you sibling.

[David Litt]

Exactly. So Matt and I met in 2012. I was 25 years old. I had just started working at the White House. I was like coming up to New Jersey to try to impress my girlfriend's parents. Matt was living at home. He was on the tail end of a Rebel Without a Cause phase that I think had lasted his entire life up to that point.

[V. Spear]

In New Jersey.

[David Litt]

In New Jersey. In central New Jersey. So like interestingly, my in laws, their precinct was one of the only 5050 precincts for a very long time. Right. There's not a lot of purpl left, but totally randomly, my wife grew up in it.

[Sammy Sage]

And that's something your brother in law would never think about?

[David Litt]

No, no, not at all. Well. And that although now he does, he'd moved to like Trump country in New Jersey. I went, I was surfing with him the other day and I was like, he was like, you okay coming down to Trump country to surf? I was like, yeah, that's fine.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, he says that to you?

[David Litt]

Well, he kind of, since the book came out, he sort of knows that, like that's the vibe of it. So he was teasing me.

[V. Spear]

Okay, so he grows up in central New Jersey.

[David Litt]

He grows up in central New Jersey. And the moment Matt and I met, I knew we had absolutely nothing in common. Right. Like he is covered in tattoos. I assuming people are listening to this and not watching. Like, I'm not wearing a tie while doing an interview. That's my version of edgy.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah.

[David Litt]

Like, Matt listens to death metal, and I listen to Stephen Sondheim. He's an electrician. I have worked in front of screens my entire working life, so could not be more different. He has two motorcycles. I obviously have zero motorcycles. I don't think I needed to tell you that. And I once asked him, I was like, do you ride them fast? And he was like, nah, not too fast. Just 100 miles an hour. So could not be more different. And it was in the pandemic that those differences really started to seem political in a way they hadn't before. I think a lot of people have had this experience where we had different tastes, we had different kind of cultural preferences. And then somehow during the pandemic, partly because of the debate over vaccines, which obviously, I don't need to tell you, I got vaccinated. Matt did not.

[V. Spear]

That.

[David Litt]

That started to feel like it meant everything, and it really tore a lot of friendships apart. I think it alienated a lot of people from their own family members. And we're living through this moment. I mean, I actually didn't know this until after the book came out, but someone sent me an article that 1 in 5Americans is now estranged from a family member because of politics.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, I believe that.

[David Litt]

And I'm honestly surprised the number isn't a little larger. And I think it's mostly because our families tend to be homogenous. Right. Like, most of my family members are Democrats. And so this was, for Matt and me, what started as like, oh, this is. You know, my wife has this younger brother who I have nothing in common with. Became almost. It felt like we were living in opposite sides of the culture war. Like, we'd been drafted into opposite sides of this civil war, and we had never been close. But we really stopped talking almost at all when the vaccine stuff came up. Right. That was a moment when I felt like. I almost felt like a civic responsibility to be a jerk to him. And in retrospect, that was put aside the moral element, strategically, that was really stupid because it just pushed him into a world where he didn't hear from anyone like me. And then it was like two years later. I was going through a period of time, pretty intense depression. And I think surfing was my way of trying to do something new and crazy to get out of it. So I started surfing at age 35, which, for those of you who don't surf, is. It's Basically. Yeah, it's basically impossible, right? Like, it's. You're an old person.

[Sammy Sage]

Did a surfing class at like age 34. And I. Okay, it's impossible. It's just.

[David Litt]

No, see, now I'm like, now, now, now I'm rooting for you. I'm like, all right, we're going to keep at it. Sometime you're going to come down to the Jersey shore. We're going to, we're going to do it. No, it is. It is pretty hopeless. And, and like, I've done other sports. I've, I've, I've skied for a really long time. I've done other things, but surfing is different and so much harder.

[Sammy Sage]

I also learned to ski as an adult. And I will tell you, it is so much easier to ski.

[David Litt]

Basically, I realized pretty early on I was like, I got hooked on surfing and not only was it making me less depressed, I also was like, I want to get good for somebody like me, which was like, I want to go to the North Shore of Hawaii and surf ahead. High wave. Like, people die doing that. It's legit. And I knew that to do that, if I didn't want to die, which would be my preference, I needed a partner in the water. And I didn't know any other surfers, so I was like, I guess my partner in the water is going to be Matt, my crazy brother in law. And so we ended up on this. Now it's been three years of surfing in Jersey, but also in California and Hawaii. We went to France once, like, all kinds. We've been all over the place and spent time together, not just in the water, but out of the water. And this book, which started as a book about David and surfing, right, me and surfing, ended up really being a kind of will they, won't they? About two guys on opposite sides of these fault lines, whether they can become friends.

[V. Spear]

I gotta be fucking real with you. My guy, Central Jersey, tattoos, electrician. This sounds like my friends and family. Okay, and surfer. How did he end up a Trumper? This is where I'm like, okay. I will often try to point to when the Hell's Angels started allowing cops to join as like, you can't be the outlaw and the law. You can't be counterculture and the government. Like, where did this sort of like, mix up Come for folks who typically were counterculture to now be like wearing the merchandise of a politician, you know, and not being able to be like family guy, cool guy anymore.

[David Litt]

This is a distinction I think is actually really Important. And it's one of those things where I'm like, I learned a ton about politics, even though mostly I was trying to just find an excuse to go surfing. So Matt is not like a Trump guy. He's a Joe Rogan guy. And he actually has not registered to vote. If he did register to vote, there was zero chance he would have voted for Kamala Harris. But he was like, I don't really care about voting now. A lot of his friends and a lot of his coworkers were like, I am registering to vote and I'm going to vote for Trump. Or a lot of guys who. I remember, after the election, I was talking with him about how the Hispanic community had really swung pretty heavily toward Trump. And he was like, oh, I could tell you that because I'm on job sites doing the electrical work, and there's a bunch of guys there. A lot of Hispanic guys in Jersey are in construction, and they're all into Trump. So what I think is really interesting about this, though, is the MAGA coalition. Now, it does rely on this Joe Rogan superfan group, which is a little different than the hardcore MAGA guys.

[Sammy Sage]

Well, David, how does. Can you give us any insight into how he feels about the administration now? Do you discuss it? Like, do you kind of get a sense of what they're thinking by him?

[David Litt]

So I would say. And it's funny because every. Every time I've talked about the book since it came out, I'm like, okay, I have a new list of questions for Matt next time we go surfing. I think we're. I think tomorrow the waves are looking good, so I'll ask him. But I think that the short version is it's not as intense one way or the other. Right. The biggest difference that I learned between voters, or in Matt's case, non voters, but people who think about politics like Matt and people who think about politics like me, is that I think about politics all the time, right? As do the two of you. And I am sure most of your listeners are listening to this because you want to or feel you have to think about politics. And what I learned qualitatively, right, just from hanging out, like in the hot tub at a wave pool in Waco, Texas, was a lot of men in particular, who drifted rightward in the last couple of years. They don't think of themselves as political. So it's not like they're watching everything saying, what does this make me think about the administration? I do think opinions will shift over time, but it's not as like, minute to minute as it is, where I'm looking through the news and, like, you know, it's not like my opinion is changing, but I am, like, having strong feelings with every single story. Right. And so I think the thing that is important to think about with the kind of Rogan wing of the MAGA coalition is that I think the economic piece is big, frankly. Even though, like, Elon Musk starting his own political party, I roll my eyes at that, unsurprisingly. But I will tell you, yeah, the Joe Rogan people, they love Elon Musk much more than they care about Trump. Right? Their. Their parasocial relationship. Like Matt will tell you, he's like, yeah, Joe and Elon were on the podcast, right? He's like. And Tulsi, those are three people who he, like, feels that he knows in the way that I'm sure you tons of your listeners are like, they have a relationship with you. And so I think that is a really important overlooked thing that's happening with the Elon Trump sort of bromance. Fizzling is that it's not that Elon is going to beat Trump in that fight, but he might take away that, you know, 5% of Joe Rogan guys, and that's enough to sink Republicans in the Iowa and Texas Senate races, probably enough to flip a dozen House. House seats. You know, definitely means that JD Vance can't win the presidency without them. So Republicans are in a good place, obviously, right now compared to the rest of us, but there are real cracks in that coalition. Do you.

[Sammy Sage]

So right now, the Democrats are working on, like, they're speaking to American Men project.

[V. Spear]

Yeah, Sam, I want to know what.

[Sammy Sage]

You think of that, but I also want to know if you think maybe any sort of approach that is not fully grassroots, organic, that starts somewhere apolitical or just not at all political, if that's really the way in. Because if they're calling, like, Elon their guy. Elon didn't have to be in politics. He could have done anything, right? I mean, he couldn't have because he needs the government contract. But.

[David Litt]

Yes, but in theory, his image was that.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, his image is something separate. And then he's gonna go fix the politics. Like, I hate these businessmen who think they're gonna fix politics. Like, you can barely keep a business going for 10 years.

[David Litt]

Yeah. Well, so here's when it comes to the $20 million to talk to men, I guess what I would say is, like, that's a little goofy. At the same time, I do think it's Good Democrats should do everything. I don't know that I put that price tag on it. Maybe spend the 20 million slightly differently. But the biggest problem I think that Democrats have with young men or non college educated men, and I'm, in many ways part of this problem I want to be very clear about that, is there's often moments when it's like we sit around and we study working class people or we study people without college degrees, and then the people who we're busy studying don't like us. And we're like, why don't you like us? It's like, because we're treating you as test subjects.

[Sammy Sage]

So, yeah, there's this very, like, animal in the zoo vibe. It's like, why don't you, like, why don't you just maybe encounter someone in your life and then just, just talk and then you don't turn, turn it into like a, a study, an empirical study, and then you just form observations.

[V. Spear]

On the left that are doing cool things and then they make them feel stupid or weird or like they're not doing enough. I mean, you see this even with the Zoran Mamdani stuff, like, people are excited about him, men are excited about him. All of a sudden there's like all this, like, no, no, no, not like that, though. And then they're like, well, I don't want to play with then.

[David Litt]

Well, I do think that's a. That's a good example of a campaign that is fun, right? Is like, is chill, even though the issues are important. And I feel pretty strongly that, like, the thing that is going to work in an Iowa Senate race and the thing that's going to work in a New York City mayoral primary are different, right? I mean, there's. But they're not 100% different. And one of the things that I think is important with Mamdani's campaign, that it doesn't matter. You could be in the reddest district in the country and still learn from. Is be in people's phones, right? Not, not their computers, but their phones. Because that is a big difference between how, like, the guys I was hanging out with at Waco Surf get their news and how I get my news. The other thing is having that sense of fun and just like, being a good hang, that's important and it's a way in for a lot of people. And this is something I didn't appreciate until I talked with Matt a bunch about it. So in 2016, I was. He was maybe mid-20s. He was like, oh, I'm not going to register to vote. I was like, well, if you did register, who would you vote for? And he was like, I'd either vote for Bernie or for Trump. And I said, okay, why? And he said, because they're the most entertaining. Yeah. And I.

[V. Spear]

A lot of that.

[David Litt]

Well, and this, and this is what I think. You know, this is like a fun, like, beach read book, right? Like, you can read it in a day. So I'm not trying to make it sound all political, but I do think one of the things I learned and one of the things I included in the book about that moment is how wrong I was to assume stuff about him or that or the group of people who remind me of him. So I was like, oh, you're in your 20s. Like, you think it's fun to be entertained. Well, you know, there's what, a dozen of you? No, there were millions of people like that. And I do think that part of it is that people, when you're entertaining someone, they feel respected because it means that you either are going out of your way to figure out what they like, or you naturally know what they like. And so if you don't entertain somebody, people feel condescended to, even if you're not being condescending. And I think sometimes that entertaining element, right. Like, I thought Mamdani's Subway Takes was great. And policy wise, there's some things I don't agree with him about. But I'm like, that was like, I want a mayor who can do that, right? Like, that kind of, for me reminded me of how I felt looking at Obama when I graduated college in 08. Of like, this guy has something special and has a vision. Not just his vision, but like a charisma, a brand. A brand, but. And something that is sort of inclusive, too. It's like, oh, I want to live in his world, right? Like, I want to live in that version of the universe where, like, people do stuff like that. And again, if you're running for, you know, as a Democratic Senate candidate in Mississippi, you're going to have a very different policy set and probably a different attitude toward voters and politics in general. But you can do the equivalent, right? You can do the red state equivalent. And I think you have to if you want to win back some of those voters that we lost, particularly because they tend to be pretty populist.

[Sammy Sage]

You mentioned Iowa Senate. There's actually a great guy running for the Democratic in the Democratic primary. His name is Nathan Sage. I don't just like him because we share a last name. You Got to see this guy, he was like, he, when he talks, you should see his campaign videos. I think he's a great example of someone who can translate that like down to earth. I'm just going to speak directly to you. No bullshit. A little bit entertaining, but not to the point of unseriousness. That because, because I think the lack of seriousness is what turns Democrats off and makes them be like, I'm not going to think about this, but you can be fun and smart and serious, or you can address serious things in an entertaining way that will grab people. Because people keep saying like, I see people say a lot like, I wish my politicians were boring again. It's like if you're gonna try to project that, then you're actually just defending the status quo, which people don't want because it's not working. So you have to do something new and different. But what that is is, yeah, really the, just the, the distinction.

[David Litt]

Do you know about the Roger Ailes falling off the stage story? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Sammy Sage]

No.

[David Litt]

So Roger Ailes, obviously a monster, right? But smart monster. He used to say, imagine there's two candidates and they have a debate, right? A foreign policy debate. Let's say one of them gets up, they deliver a five point plan that's incredibly smart about foreign policy winning. Everyone in the audience would agree with it. The second candidate gets up and trips and falls off the stage into the orchestra pit. Who's going to get covered by the news the next day? And Trump is a master at falling into the orchestra pit. Sometimes it's not even good. It looks stupid, but he's the one getting covered. He's the one in the orchestra pit. And if you look at Democrats who have been successful, right. Bill Clinton was a saxophone playing Rhodes scholar. Barack Obama, who I worked for, obviously, so I'm biased. But still, like he slow jammed the news, right? I was, I helped write the thing where Keegan Michael Key came on as his anger translator. And then at the end, we had the President deliver a really serious message about climate that people watch that they wouldn't have otherwise watched. Democrats have to figure out how to be Sammy to your point, serious on policy can actually make a difference in people's lives, but also can fall into the orchestra pit sometimes so that they get noticed and covered.

[V. Spear]

And if you're listening, that doesn't mean try to be an influencer. I don't think we want any Democrats trying to do trends or be influencers or be tick tockers. I think it's the difference between like the thing you said about being a good hang is so important. It's the difference between like Eric Swalwell is trying to do something where he stages a lot of his, like, hey, Congressman, can I talk to you for a second? And that aggravates me because I think it starts inauthentic space because it's obviously scripted and. But he's doing what he's trying to do.

[Sammy Sage]

That's probably because they want it to be scripted. They probably would go off the cuff.

[V. Spear]

But my thing with him. Okay, but he's doing it right? So he's doing it the way that they want it done. Difference between him and a Chris Murphy. And all we do is talk about how maybe Pete Buttigieg will be the next president or maybe AOC or maybe this one or that one. I think it's actually Chris Murphy who's a good hang and a fucking cool dude. And people are like, you know what? I like this guy. He went through some shit in his life. He's got a smoking hot new girlfriend. Right. They care about that. And he's a good hang. He's a decent guy. He can talk about things in a normal ass way without it feeling staged, but he can come in hot when he needs to.

[David Litt]

Yeah. I think the other thing that he has said recently, which I thought was really interesting was when he was like, I think I made a mistake in the way that I talked about guns. Right. And I think that willingness, which is very human to whether you agree with him or not on that, by the way, that he made a mistake, that whoever is running as a Democrat is going to have to say, I am a break with the Democrats who came before me. And they don't have to be a break in every way, but they're going to have to say, here's why I'm new and different. Because if you're saying, here's what I'm offering the same thing, then even people like me, and I am like a very normie Democrat, are like, really? We're near the same thing. Again, that doesn't seem like a good idea.

[V. Spear]

We want someone who reflects back a little bit of the brokenness that we may be feeling ourselves sometimes somebody who's a little bit flawed. I love people to judge, but he is perfect.

[Sammy Sage]

The thing is, when they, when they double down it be it's become gaslighting. Like when you keep saying we're going to do the same thing over and over, what you're actually doing is making people feel that you are just delusional about the country because I don't need to personally be losing Medicaid to realize that we are not in an okay place, that people are not. There are more Americans who have reported that they are food insecure. Last month then I think the percentage was double what it was in 2021. This is not okay. When we are the quote unquote, richest country in the world, you can't even keep your adults full. It's like disgusting. It's really disgusting. And if you, if you as a Democrat can't feel like, you know, I've been in power, I've been in a position and while it's not all on me, I was here and these problems got worse. So obviously I and my colleagues have made many mistakes.

[V. Spear]

But standing with the baseball bat, standing with the baseball bat like Jeffrey or Hakeem Jeffries did, to be like, I'm going to take these people serious, or changing a bill name like Chuck Schumer or saying the F word on under the desk news because Chuck Schumer thought that was going to be the coolest thing he ever did in his fucking life is like, it's not enough. You know what I mean? That kind of stuff maybe flew in the 90s. It would have been crazy. But it's like there are actual things we need somebody who's like down on our level that we feel like gives us behind the scenes, that's a normal guy, that's a good hang, who can, who can do stuff. Deja Fox out of Arizona. Another person who's like a normal cool ass person who's like, I just got sick of it, which is why I'm running for office. And these are the things I understand well.

[David Litt]

And one of the things that I completely forgot until I was in Ohio for a piece I did for Time, I was talking to a volunteer of mine in 2008. I was a field organizer for Obama's campaign. Her husband voted for Obama twice and then voted for Trump twice. And then he voted for Harris this last time around. And he was like, the reason I voted for Obama in part was he was against. He was anti establishment. He was like, I didn't like the Clintons. He was a Republican, right? It was like, I really hated the Clintons. And Obama beat the Clintons in the primary. And so Obama now, because this is what time does, right? People are like, he's the establishment because he was the president, so that makes you the establishment. Same thing is happening to Trump, by the way, but at the time Obama was able to run as somebody who was coming in from the outside. And so I think ultimately the recipe for successful Democrats isn't that complicated. But doing it's really hard. Right. Like Barack Obama was an exceptional human being. Bill Clinton had some qualities about him that were substantially less than exceptional, but as a politician, as a communicator, was an exceptional person. So I do think you have to figure out a way for that to surface. Which, by the way, is the other reason I think some of these primaries we're having and some of the debates that we're having are important. Right. That's how talent rises to the top. I don't think anyone. And again, I mean, I know people who are Democrats who really, really do not like Mamdani are worried about him, but even they would say he's phenomenally talented politically. And I think you watching those people emerge is why we do primaries. I think that's really important. And one of the things that I think. And again, kind of going back to like the wave pool in Waco, Texas, hanging out in the hot tub. Democrats somehow became the party of like foisting choices on you. And that vibe. Right. You know, it got. That was the thing that people used during vaccination, which unfairly to be like, Democrats are trying to force you to live life their way. But then when we do other things like say, well, we won't really have primaries, then it does start to feel like Democrats are the party that wants to control your life as opposed to saying, we want to make government work well so that you can be in control of your life. Right. That sense of self control for the people we've been talking about, the, like Joe Rogan listening, like those fans. It's not that they're conservatives. They want to be in control of their own lives and they don't want to be told what to do. So there's this huge opportunity cuz Trump wants to tell everybody what to do. Democrats have to be the people saying, we're gonna put you back in control of your own life.

[V. Spear]

And on that note, listen up, team. That's it for us for this week. David Litt, thank you for being here. The name of the book is It's Only Drowning. And maybe we can all learn something. Like you said, Beach Read. We've got Beach Reads.

[Sammy Sage]

Truly a great book, honestly.

[David Litt]

Thank you. And then, Sammy, we're going surfing soon. It's gonna happen.

[Sammy Sage]

I don't know if you want that. More fun for both of us.

[David Litt]

All right, it's a deal.

[V. Spear]

Good luck with all of that. I have sensitive joints. Until next time, I'm V. Spear.

[Sammy Sage]

And I'm Sammy Sage.

[V. Spear]

And this is American Fever. Drink.

[Sammy Sage]

Good night.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Betches.