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- [00:00]
Alencia Johnson
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Sia Johnson
Sia Johnson. Hi.
- [00:09]
Alencia Johnson
Hi. Thanks for having me.
- [00:11]
Sia Johnson
I am thrilled to be chatting with you. Congratulations on your new book, Flip the Tables. It is, I've been reading it and it is really just a very lovely, easy, smooth read and it's been very insightful and, you know, it's really just given me a lot to think about. And I think that, you know, a lot of our Democratic leadership could probably, you know, benefit from reading it as well, if I'm, if I'm being honest.
- [00:38]
Alencia Johnson
Look, I actually appreciate especially that last comment because part of what led me to writing this about like disrupting yourself first is how sometimes and political organizing and we don't treat each other well. And that comes from a deep seated, unhealed and right like an ego, things that we haven't tapped into. And so how can we be bold and audacious in the world to create something better if we're not treating each other well or even just using our own sphere of influence to get out of our own comfort zone and do the hard thing, the courageous thing.
- [01:10]
Sia Johnson
Yeah. So, I mean, you have, you have quite a bit of experience working on presidential campaigns, you know, just for the sake of the audience. You've worked on Obama's, Elizabeth Warren's, Kamala Harris and you know, you've really seen how these, how leadership works up close, close, how people go about presenting ideas and trying to communicate them. And what I think, you know, it seems like we both agree on is that there's something sorely lacking in the creativity department and in the, in the connectivity department. And I think something that really stuck out to me about your book, as opposed to so many other books that, you know, could sort of be adjacent in this space, is that you emphasize a really spiritual message. I think this is something that people on the left have been kind of missing that puts the right at a huge advantage. Like when you're doing things for the grace of God, you are really connecting to something deep and motivating that you can't create a simulation of out of kind of like faux values and can. So can you talk a bit about how you're speaking spirituality, your religiosity, your connection to God plays into this book and the way you look at things generally.
- [02:28]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah, I, I absolutely love that question because me, and I'm sure you know her, Zulita Maxwell, we are always talking about how like Jesus needs more people because those of us who believe in Jesus, and the title of the book comes from the story of Jesus flipping over tables in the temple. And it's like my favorite iteration of Jesus.
- [02:48]
Sia Johnson
I thought it was Teresa Giudice, frankly. But, you know, that's because, that's because I'm Jewish, so I don't, I don't know all the, all the different references. So more of an Old Testament gal.
- [03:00]
Alencia Johnson
You know, I'm also a housewife theme. So it works both ways, right? Like, I love Jesus, I love housewives, so it also works. But you know, as I you have been doing all this work and I worked at Planned Parenthood as well. There would always be people who were like, wait, how are you Christian? And you're working on all these issues? And I was like, wait, how am I Christian? And not believing in all of these issues that advance our communities and advance society? You know, when I, I tell people, if Jesus was alive today, Donald Trump's administration would deport him, right? So he would be an enemy of the state. And he believed in taking care of the least of these. And the thing, the way that I approach the book is, yes, I talk about my faith. And I'm so glad you mentioned you being Jewish. It really anchors and all of us have something, a higher power to tap into, because that's what we need to stay motivated and to keep going. Right. That's why I love the word courage, because the Bible talks about being strong and courageous. And I was like, what does it actually mean to be courageous? Right. And it's not necessarily about being brave or without fear, but it just reminds you that there's something greater than our fear. Because at the end of the day, a lot of the things that we do, they can be a bit scary. And I may not actually get over that, but how do I press forward and that connection to a higher power, whether it's God or Jesus or whatever it may be, I think that's what keeps us going. And I mentioned that conversations Arlene and I would have about how Jesus needs more people is because I see the right co opting Christianity and weaponizing it in ways that are so oppressive and so dangerous. I mean, they used it to enslave my ancestors. They use it to harm queer and trans people. They use it. I mean, you even hear it in the immigration conversation. And I'm like, are y'all not reading like the red text in the Bible where, like, it talks about embracing people and loving people and helping the poor? And so I, one of the through lines of my career is not backing away from my faith, especially when I work at Planned Parenthood. And that really threw the anti abortion crusaders for A loop. But that in itself takes courage and is disruption. And I want more people of faith to not feel. But we have to be silenced when it comes to progressive politics or any of these issues that we care about.
- [05:20]
Sia Johnson
I'm actually completely with you because I myself believe in God. I consider myself to be quite a spiritually connected person, even though I'm not like a practicing, you know, Jewish person. And I'll be honest, and I think that this is kind of what you were saying earlier is what's missing from our organizing, the way that people kind of go after each other, not just, you know, their, you know, not just in what you're saying, like, you know, not seeing the humanity of an immigrant, but in the way people address those who are on their own, quote unquote side and who do overlap. And I think, I actually think we share a strong commonality and in the sense that like, it doesn't only inform my politics of how I see other people, like as human beings, but it informs like the way I see myself. Like I am a person who is in imbued with spirituality and so therefore everybody else is. And there's an inherent respect that we owe one another because of that. And I think when you sort of like. And like, I see what conservatives mean when they're like godless liberals. It's like, it's like there is this sort of like, it's not just the lack of God as the God that they're talking about. It's like this lack of connection beyond the five senses that binds us as humans. And if you don't recognize that, I do think that there is something missing. And I don't mean this is like a criticism, but it, for me, it feels like if I didn't have that, like, why would I do anything?
- [07:03]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. I mean, what you're saying.
- [07:05]
Sia Johnson
Yeah, I don't really mean why would I do anything, but like, it is so like present for me.
- [07:13]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. And what you're saying is literally how I got to this place of let's disrupt self envision then community. Because that respect and responsibility that we have to one another, when you go through the world understanding that, and I talk a bit about Dr. King's beloved community. When you go to throughout the world, understanding the responsibility that we have to one another, the respect that we should have with one another, the grace that we should have with one another, then you inherently understand that your purpose and what you're supposed to be doing is actually connected to them as well. And like, if I am not in my purpose, then people in my community cannot be in their purpose because it's all interconnected. Right. And that is spirituality. And if we had to your point, that greater sense of understanding, I do think we would organize differently. I do think that some of our leaders would get fed up a lot more quickly and actually do the hard thing. And it wouldn't have been only Congressman Green who stood up and protested Donald Trump. Right. Like, I think that deep connection and conviction to one another is actually what pushes us and propels us to doing the tough and hard thing. But necessary thing. Again, people love to quote and talk about Jesus flipping over tables. And I'm like, but are you actually willing to get that angry? It's the question I continue to ask myself, wow, what got Jesus so angry that he flipped over these temples? And then what would get all of us so angry about what's happening in the world around us that we flip over the proverbial tables? And it starts with ourselves, but then in our community, and we have to be connected to each other.
- [08:54]
Sia Johnson
I also think that what that gives you is a sense of intent, intention in what tables you are flipping and how you approach your. The moments and the opportunities that come your way. Because when you say this, it's not like you're acting like you're not acting outrageous every day, like you're not making this huge, you know, because you could think like, oh, Marjorie Taylor Greene is flipping the tables because she's always making a fucking stink. And you know what this really gets at is kind of a grander theory I have around how like organized religion as a function, as it grew out of the patriarchy, that's what perverted humans innate tendency towards spirituality and a higher power. And whatever religion you practice, however you access that is I think, what gets skewed and when. And that's how people are able to use Bible quotes to justify slavery. And it's like only when you insert that human mechanism of control that tries to come in between the human and the community and the higher power. That's what I think makes. Repels people and, and, and, you know, makes people think that religion is really like a source of, of evil in a lot of ways.
- [10:22]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah. Which it's not actually supposed to be. Right. I studied all. I did a religious studies course in college. And look, my dad's a pastor, so I grew up in the black church. And the black church tends to lean more progressive and liberal, even though there had a history of homophobia and sexism. But we've definitely been at the Forefront of civil rights. And I wanted to learn about other religions, and I did. And I remember going home and I was like, oh, my goodness. Majority of the world's religions all kind of have, like, similar understandings of how we're supposed to treat one another, being connected to a higher power. And if we focus on our similarities instead of our differences, our worlds would be a lot better. You brought up a piece about, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene and, like, just destroying things. And that's why I spent a lot of time in the book really diving into what does it mean to be a disruptor. A disruptor does something for good. Good. It's not a Tasmanian Devil just barreling through the town, destroying whatever in its path. It is someone who understands this is no longer serving us and we can build something better, whether it's in your own life or the world around you. And then you actually go and destroy it to build something new. That's what Jesus was doing in the temple. That is what so many people think about. Like, I can't bring, and I quote, Congresswoman Chisholm. I love her dearly. And she kept saying, you know, bring up a folding chair if there's not enough room for you at the table. But sometimes, as you know, that table's too crowded. Or actually, the table never worked for anyone. And so how do you intentionally, to your point, intentionally, intentionally destroy something to build something even better? And part of being able to do that is having a radical imagination of something possible. That's why a vision is so important. And that's why, you know, it is frustrating when people fully don't understand how oppressors use exhaustion and overwhelm to get us to a place where we can't imagine something different. Right. Let alone fight. But, like, can't imagine something different. And that's why all of that is so important in this world that we live in. And you and I know this is a lifelong journey of work. You know, I hate to say this, you all, but, like, even if we could get through Donald Trump, it's going to be something else, right? Baffling the patriarchy and racism and all of those things. It is going to be a lifelong work. And so how do we sustain ourselves?
- [12:53]
Sia Johnson
There was something you wrote early on in the book, which I also shared, an experience of which I think, you know, when people are asking themselves, like, how do I even imagine? Like, you feel blocked. Like, you feel like. Because, again, like, that overwhelm, that exhaustion, it causes your brain to sort of go in circles. And you wrote there's something you've written and I just wrote in my notes. I get what you mean about feeling blocked. Like, that feeling of just like. Like, I. I described it as the Chinese finger trap. When you just, like, keep pulling and pulling, you won't get out. But, like, if you relax, you might. But that's not easy to do when you're in it. And there was something you said that it had led you to go to a therapist, and that your therapist asked you a question that my therapist once asked me about a decade ago, which started, like, a whole series of dominoes. And maybe this is a question if. For people to ask themselves if. Because it's really just how enlightening it is. They asked you, what are your good qualities that are unrelated to your work? And you were like, I don't know. I also was like. Also, I was like, I don't.
- [14:03]
Alencia Johnson
What do you mean?
- [14:04]
Sia Johnson
She asked me a similar question. It was like, who. What are your. What are your good quality? Like, who are you? And I was like, I remember. The only thing I could say was like, I'm curious. I know that I'm curious. Like, yeah, it's like, where do you even start? So. So how did. How did that question change things for you? And like, how can other people kind of use that as the lever from which to step on. Onto a new path?
- [14:37]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah, that question, it's still to this day, reads me for Phil. She literally said, who. Who are you? And I said, excuse me. She said, your homework is to answer the question, who am I? And I promise you, I was in a pool of tears throughout that entire therapy session. And I'm actually so grateful because capitalism and the society pushes us to tie our worthiness to what we achieve. And then I think about how my ancestors were brought to this nation to either be labor or give birth to labor. And so when a black body is not doing either of those, I have no worth in the society. And so untangling those systems, untangling, you know, societal pressures, I literally had to sit with myself and say, well, who am I shedding all of these things? And I started to give myself the grace to. To not have an answer to that question, but have a journey to that answer, if that makes sense. Right. The peeling back the layers. And that's when I started to realize what I am doing in the world and how I'm using my gifts in the world is directly connected to my values and who I am. It's not corrected. It's not connected to what I'm Producing the money I'm making, the titles and the achievements and all of those things. And it's sent me on a journey of, like, I had a friend that called me a hippie in my hippie era because I was saying no to a lot of things. I was, you know, spending more time outside getting in my creative bag. But then as I started doing those things, the work that I'm doing in the world actually also started shifting. But more importantly, my relationships, as we're talking a bit about relationships, my relationships and my community develop better. My relationship with myself became better. The confidence and the courage, and I think I'm a lot more courageous to stand in the gap and step up and speak when my voice was shaking. And, you know, I think people are very surprised. I'll be very surprised to hear in the book, there are times when my voice shakes. There are times when I was nervous to do certain things. You could Google me and you wouldn't think that to be the case, but that's true. And to be honest and vulnerable about that breeds a ground of connection that I have never fully experience, and I'm really grateful for it. And so I spent a whole chapter guiding people through answering that question of who am I? And then also giving ourselves the permission that who I am today might change tomorrow and might change in a week. And that's actually okay, so long as we disconnect it from what the society tells us. It has to be related to our resume or our career.
- [17:15]
Sia Johnson
Yeah. And I think people will be surprised. And you can't put this as, like, the goal otherwise, like, your mind knows that you're tricking yourself. I think people are surprised at how clear, much clearer things become and how ideas sort of for what your next step should be, or just a sense it enables you to tune into yourself and to listen to yourself so that the answers that you spend so much time, like, say, spiraling, you know, hamster wheeling over, become a little more clear over time. And what you're. What you're saying about, you know, what is my. What is my worth connected to, you know, with absent achievement? And, you know, I've definitely had that journey. I had that journey with my weight. And people ask, like, how did you actually decouple that? So what are, like, some things you actually, like, said to yourself day in and day out that, like, change that for you? Did you have to, like, reinforce, even when good things happened, that, like, this isn't what makes me important, even though you're so happy that, like, you've achieved.
- [18:26]
Alencia Johnson
Those things, you know, part of that journey for me was reassessing how I talk to myself. Right. And the things that I'm saying to myself. And I know we all people always talk about affirmations, and I actually found my. Myself getting tripped up in affirmations because. So, for example, I put this in the book about how, you know, people will say things like, I want to be a millionaire. I'm going to be a millionaire. Well, if you say that statement without acknowledging where you are right now, acknowledging the process, acknowledging what's happening in the world, you will constantly feel like a failure. I also went through that with weight gain and trying to lose weight, and I had to react, redo kind of the way that I speak to myself with a more active presence. I remember a girlfriend said to me one time when I was going through a heartbreak, she was like, look, it may not get better today, it may not get better tomorrow, but you're working through it, and eventually we'll get better. And that's actually how I took that approach to give myself the grace to reframe some of these conversations I was having with myself. I talk about expanding our capacity for humanity for others in the book, but really expanding the capacity for embracing myself as human and the grace that we deserve. And so putting and reframing those conversations we have with ourselves to acknowledge where we are and that progress, the daily steps that we're taking, really help do that work.
- [19:56]
Sia Johnson
Yeah, you can tell a lot about how someone speaks to themselves and about. By the way they speak to and about others. So it's, you know, it's. It's. Everything is connected. When you look at sort of the Democratic Party and you look at the leaders, who we need to, you know, there's this feeling of like, why aren't they doing anything? So it, you know, this Chinese finger trap vibe feeling towards the leaders, what do you wish that they would take away from this moment or wish that they would do internally, externally, together, to like themselves? Flip the tables.
- [20:38]
Alencia Johnson
Oh, my goodness. There's so many things that I want Democrats to do. One, I need for them to get rid of the like tried and true consulting class that tells us that we have to placate to the white moderates when the reality is we can expand our base on people who are apathetic. I also want people to listen. Congressman Green did a great job. I keep speaking about him. Congresswoman Presley, when she told her story and shared that she's a survivor in the committee hearing, just to make sure folks understood what is Happening. But I actually really want, and I talk about storytelling in the book. I want Democrats to do what Donald Trump did and that is have a rally every single week in a district that actually isn't feeling Democrats. But have a rally and a red district and tell the truth every single week. Steal the media attention, steal those voters. Get bold. Stop sitting up in D.C. listening to these consultants that say we have to placate to these moderates in the middle of America. And the reality is our positions actually do speak to low income folks, whether white, black, brown, whatever it may be. It speaks to the majority, but we just have to go talk to them and be scrappy. I also want Democrats to listen. I live in Virginia. I love Gerry Connolly, but I was really upset when the party decided to put him in leadership over aoc. Get up. You have to ask yourself the question of do I want to win or do I want to be right? And all these Democrats want their ego to be stroked and they want to be the right one. But the reality is we have to want to win. And so in order to win, we have to listen to the people and put new positions up there and also get on the roads, stop sitting up in here and dc get out on the road and talk to people. Because that actually is what's going to get people to get in the game and do their part. But folks are not going to do their part if their elected officials aren't doing theirs.
- [22:31]
Sia Johnson
Yeah, I feel the same. Exactly the same way. It's like if you aren't willing to go do what Bernie Sanders is doing in, in your, in your way, whatever your thing is, if you aren't willing to go put that amount of effort that that 80 year old man is doing by traveling around the country, you need to just get out of your seat. Doesn't matter how right you are, just give it up. Like you can go be on a board somewhere, you'll be fine. You will find a great job and like just give it up. Because you do not have what it takes for this moment and they need to be creative. Like you can't just leave it all to aoc. And it's really just, it honestly is crazy making and I am fully with you. They need to step it up, be creative, speak to people and meet the moment. Because it's just. Yeah, it's not, it's not working. Hope they listen to you.
- [23:26]
Alencia Johnson
And it's also disappointing as someone who works in the party, like I am so disappointed and quite frankly pissed off. Like that's a whole nother podcast episode that we could do about what happened in 2024 and how we're not meeting the moment now, but, like, it is. They're not angry enough. The decision makers are not angry enough. And so, to be honest, they need to show us what they're going to do or be at risk of potentially losing their positions. And, like, we have the power to do that as people.
- [23:59]
Sia Johnson
Absolutely. And I think that all of them should read your book and take a hint, because it's not looking good when you're just sitting there in your pink suits. They leave a third of the country on the table every two to four years. More. It's not always the same exact third. So every time that that third doesn't vote, you are. And every time you go for, like, the three people in each precinct in this five states, like, you are literally leaving all these people on the table. And if. Come up with something new, come up with something that's interesting to people.
- [24:40]
Alencia Johnson
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Sia Johnson
Trust me.
- [24:42]
Alencia Johnson
Literally, I think about that all the time. I'm like, wow, we were trying to get these 2 million phantom voters when there's 90 million people who we could have organized. Like, we would have to have moderated our conversation if we would have focused on, I mean, even 10% of those people.
- [25:00]
Sia Johnson
Right. And there's not. I mean, look at the reaction to Luigi Mangione. There is anger, there is feeling to be harnessed, and it doesn't have to be by murder. So, yeah, I agree. Flip the tables. Indeed. Everyone should check out Alencia's book. Alencia, please come back. This has been such a wonderful and thoughtful conversation.
- [25:21]
Alencia Johnson
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- [25:23]
Sia Johnson
Of course. Congrats on the book.
- [25:32]
Alencia Johnson
Betches.