Loading summary
Transcript157 lines
- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
- [00:18]
Rhodey Glass
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3.
- [00:21]
Bea Speer
Month plan equivalent to $15 per month.
- [00:24]
Rhodey Glass
Required intro rate first 3 months only.
- [00:26]
Bea Speer
Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra default terms@mintmobile.com Rise and shine, fever Dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm Bea Speer.
- [00:38]
Sammy Sage
And I'm Sammy Sage.
- [00:39]
Bea Speer
And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betches News, where we explore the.
- [00:43]
Sammy Sage
Absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience. Today we have quite a serious bonus episode for you. I interviewed a Holocaust survivor. Her name is Rhodey Glass. I met her through a friend of mine, a woman named Danielle Robay, who, who works in. She works in new media. She's not a trad lady. And she was so kind to introduce me to her grandmother who speaks and tells her story, and she was willing to come here and talk to me about it. So it is a really amazing, moving episode. And I think stories about, you know, being a refugee and escaping these types of situations, you know, you tell them in steps, but it's rare that you get like the color and the texture of what those moments were like. And I think that it's really important that we get into those details and share those experiences at this point.
- [01:36]
Bea Speer
Remember, it wasn't that long ago. I mean, these people are still alive as we're moving into this sort of unpredictable next administration. And, you know, people are throwing around words like fascism, dictator on day one. We know that there are a lot of marginalized folks out there, not just from the Jewish community, but from the LGBTQ community, women who are facing hate at a exponential level. And it's just a really sobering moment to be able to take the time with Ms. Glass to learn about how she survived it, what resilience looks like for her, and how we can find that in ourselves as well.
- [02:12]
Sammy Sage
So tell us about your experience growing up into that.
- [02:16]
Rhodey Glass
Well, I grew up into a wonderful family in the Netherlands. I was born in 1936 and all the years before that. And again, I have to reiterate that I was a child. But the Jewish people in the Netherlands, there were 140,000 Jewish citizens, of which 80,000 lived in Amsterdam and the Dutch people lived, you know, they were accepted because they started to come. The Jews came to Amsterdam during the Inquisition when they were expelled from Spain and Portugal. And it was Sephardic. The Portuguese Jews that came to Amsterdam with their money and made it the gorgeous city that it is now. They were allowed to have business, they were allowed to own land. They were allowed to. There were no restrictions like in some of the other cities where they lived behind closed gates or ghettos. It was not. They lived freely until 1940, when Hitler invaded. And when Hitler invaded, a Dutch Nazi party came about of Dutch Nazi collaborators and other collaborators. My grandfather on my mother's side owned a couple of buildings, several buildings and businesses in Amsterdam near the Jewish area and neighborhood, in the old neighborhood. My father lived in in Amsterdam for many centuries, his family. And he was one of seven children. He was. He and his twin brother were the youngest. So going back a little bit, when my grand, you know, every. The people. Most of the Jewish people in Amsterdam in the early 1900s, late 1800s were quite poor. There weren't. I mean, there were some people that were. Had wealth, but they were. They were in the minority. And most children of the families, families had a lot of children, had to learn a trade because they have to help to raise the families almost similar to Hester street in New York. So they had to learn a trade so they could help support. And my grandfather was a shoemaker. My father was a tailor. But when my grandfather and my grandmother was a dressmaker, you know, a seamstress. A seamstress. And when they got married in the early 1900s, he said to his wife, he said, I don't always want to work for somebody. I want to be a boss. He had ambition. So somehow or other he borrowed some money and he was going to open a business in shoemaker supplies and related articles. As bad luck would have it, there was a recession or depression in Holland at that time. And somebody said to him, you know, if you start a business, you're going to lose all your money. So somebody else said, why don't you move to England? At this day and age, that sounds like, okay, so you go from Holland to England. But in those days, that was a big trip and they didn't know the language. They were a young couple. It was in 1905 and they already had a little baby, three months old. And he got on a boat and moved to England and he worked there as a shoemaker and eventually had five more children. So he had six. And he opened a business and he did very well, you know, relatively well. And as when, as time went on, you know, there was no media, no tv, no, no cell phones or anything. So if you couldn't get in touch with your family so readily in Holland, so they got, you know, they, they had made some money and he decided he's going back to the Amsterdam. They were homesick.
- [06:25]
Sammy Sage
Did he close down his businesses there?
- [06:27]
Rhodey Glass
Yes, he got rid of his business there and moved the whole. And bought a building in Amsterdam, which is still there.
- [06:34]
Sammy Sage
Have you gone back to visit them?
- [06:36]
Rhodey Glass
Oh, yes, I was in there. I made a virtual reality film for the Illinois Holocaust Museum that was filmed inside of them. And. And I went into the apartment where I lived and I got friendly with the lady who lives there now. And so it's, you know. But anyway, so you moved back to Amsterdam. And now my mother is 16 years old, her sister is 17. And as time went on, she met a young man and they fell in love. And the young man had a twin brother and he fell in love with my mother. So my father, his twin brother married sisters.
- [07:16]
Sammy Sage
That's incredible.
- [07:17]
Rhodey Glass
So we had the same last name, you know, but they were very, very friendly and they worked very hard. My grandfather was a hard taskmaster, but all the children lived at home. My grandmother did all the cooking and all the children, if they were old enough. Now they weren't all old enough, but they worked in the business. And that's how time went on until 1940. And we lived a nice life, very friendly. Both families were very close. Nobody was rich rich, you know, but they were comfortable. My father's family, maybe not so much, but they were, they would have. I remember them so fondly. And then came 1940 and the Germans invaded the Netherlands.
- [08:07]
Sammy Sage
What did that look like as a 4 year old? Did you have awareness of it?
- [08:13]
Rhodey Glass
Yes, I do remember that we stood in. We were. We were not allowed outside on the street. They had first invaded Rotterdam and bombed it and burned it down. And a lot of resident Dutch citizens were killed from the fires. And then they marched into Amsterdam and we had to stay in our store. We stood in the store and we had to have blackout shades. We were required to have blackout shades. And we were standing in the store and I think some of the adults kind of peeked out and saw it. I didn't, but I heard the goose steps and I still remember that, the goose stepping. So when the Germans invaded the Netherlands, they kind of told the government, but they're not going to be bad. They're just there, you know. To occupy because Hitler wants more space and blah blah blah. And after all their Germanic country, they're a Germanic country will be friendly. That was all baloney. Did.
- [09:14]
Sammy Sage
Was it understood at the time that Jews were distinct within the context of this. This occupation? Were. Did Jews just feel like we are the Dutch and we are all being occupied?
- [09:30]
Rhodey Glass
There's two sides to that and to that question. Because in 1938, November 9th was Kristallnacht, the night of Broken Glass in Germany. The German Jews wanted to get out of the country. They figured it's time to get out of dodge. So the Dutch gave them visas because the Dutch were not involved in World War I. So when the German Jews came to the Netherlands in 1938, the Holland is a very. The Netherlands. Holland, same thing, is a small country. There's not. Was not many places for people to walk, to live. Rather there were not many dominant. It was an agricultural country. So only in Amsterdam or maybe and on Rotterdam and the Hague maybe there was some, but most of them. So the Dutch government decided there was a place in the eastern part of the Netherlands that was not occupied by anybody because the soil was so bad you couldn't grow anything. And that was called Westerbork. And that's where they told the German Jews that they could have this. This place. And they built little barracks. Now these German Jews made a village there for themselves that were. They weren't just, you know, they were ordinary people. But there were cabaret performers, there were doctors, lawyers, Dennis poets. There were some famous people. I can't think of them right now, but they're. So they formed, you know, they have schools and sports themes and they made somewhat of a life for themselves. Of course, when they left Germany, they were only allowed to take a suitcase. So the Dutch Jews helped them, including my grandfather, the people that had money. So they helped them a lot. So when the Germans occupied the Netherlands and they decided to form a Jewish committee called the Yotserat, the Judenrat in German, which is considered of a committee of so called prominent people. You know, prominent is only what you think of yourself. Doctors and lawyers, the president of bank, the president of the diamond market, stuff like that. And they were in charge. The Germans were telling them what to do. Until then, the Jewish people in Holland lived like Dutch citizens. I mean they were religious, but we were secular. We didn't feel any antisemitism. But it sure came about then. And the Germans gave the all kinds of rules. And one of them was that the Jews had to hand in all Their valuables. If it was candlesticks, money or diamonds or whatever. Gold, like your necklace would have been valuable, right?
- [12:31]
Sammy Sage
Don't tell them.
- [12:32]
Rhodey Glass
No, I won't. So anyway, and then the rules came out. And the Dutch was conveying these rules to the Dutch population. But the first thing they did is that all the Dutch Jews had to register and get identity papers with a picture and a big J on it. So they knew where we all were. They knew our addresses. Very few people had telephones, but they knew where to find us. So that was the first thing. Then he had a hand in your valuables. Then you were not allowed to go on the streetcar. You're not allowed to go to school. You're not allowed to go to plays or have sports teams or go. Go to the movies or. You were like a prisoner in your own home. You only could buy food in certain stores. You know, it was like house arrest. But you were on this. You could walk on the street. So the Jewish people were following these rules only because the Yotsara told them to, which was a big mistake because they said, oh, let's not fight. Let's not be negative, because we don't want to ruffle their feathers. So much for ruffling their feathers. They didn't need their feathers ruffled. And anyway, so everybody obeyed, but everybody lived in a fearful situation. You know, you didn't know what was going on. And then the Germans found Westerbork, and they decided, hey, this would be a good concentration camp. You know, there's more land there. So they had the Dutch built big barracks there. And then they started to arrest the people in 1942.
- [14:27]
Sammy Sage
How did they begin those arrests?
- [14:29]
Rhodey Glass
They were random. They had lists, and they just went to your house and picked you up. You didn't get a notice, so they just took people, right?
- [14:38]
Sammy Sage
So one night, no pretense of the rule of law or anything.
- [14:43]
Rhodey Glass
Law was their law. There was no law for us. So In September of 1942, you know, as I said, we ate at my grandmother's house. She lived across the street in the store. We lived above the warehouse. And my mom and dad went home with me. I was six years old. My mom put me to sleep. My parents were resting a little bit, and there was banging on the door. And, you know, if there's banging on the door, it's a Gestapo, because they don't ring doorbells. They just bang on the door. And they had dogs barking. And my mother ran down the stairs and they said, draus, draus. You got to get out. And my mother said, I have a child sleeping. Of course, she didn't speak German, and I don't think the Germans spoke Dutch for sure not. They wouldn't listen to her. So in their clothes that they wore to work, my mother was allowed to stick her handbag and a coat. My father took his coat. She dressed me. And they put us in an army truck and there were other Jewish people in there and took us to the central station in Amsterdam. They put us on a train. And the train at that point, the rails didn't go as far as Westerbork because it was the beginning. So it was another town called Hoholland. And we had to get off in the middle of the night in the rain and the mud and walk with the guns trained on us. And we walked to Westerbork, which was about 6km, which is pretty good trip hours. When we got there and they registered us, my mom and I were in one barrack. My father was with the men. And they had. They put them to work, you know, dummy work. My father had a. Like the wheelbarrows with rocks going up a hill and then down a hill.
- [16:36]
Sammy Sage
When you were on the train and with people in the camp, did you know the other people around you?
- [16:44]
Rhodey Glass
No.
- [16:44]
Sammy Sage
From your community?
- [16:46]
Rhodey Glass
No, I didn't. And you know, it's a. It's a terrible. They put you in these barracks that have like three story. I wouldn't call them beds. They were aluminum structures with. They weren't even mattresses. They were straw mattresses. And you all slept. You know, I slept next to my mom, but there were other people. And you read all these strange people with strange noises and strange odors and strange everything and no food much. And it was not pretty. I didn't even have friends. I just played outside the barrack in the mud because it was a very muddy situation. And I remember my mother saying, do not go near the barbed wire ever.
- [17:31]
Sammy Sage
Was your mother trying to make you feel safe?
- [17:36]
Rhodey Glass
My parents never made me feel that I had to be afraid, which I thank them for every day of my life. Because I would have really been nuts if they would have done that. You know, that's when you get a little. Your mind goes crazy. Even as a child, do you think.
- [17:54]
Sammy Sage
That that helped them maybe feel less fear on a constant basis?
- [18:01]
Rhodey Glass
Because I'm sure they were fear, Phil. I'm sure they were afraid. And I. I regret to this day that I never asked them enough. But that's how it is. As time went on a couple weeks we were called out every day. We had to be. We were called to the main square, the Appelplatz, and they counted all the prisoners to make sure nobody escaped. And you had to stand there in the rain or the snow. It was in the fall, so it's very cold in Holland until they were satisfied. And one day we were all called out. And there were long tables with the Nazi. The Gestapo soldiers behind it. And they had lists. People didn't know anything. I have to preface by telling you that until almost till the war was over, nobody knew that there were extermination camps. Nobody knew. They were very shrewd. So anyway. So as my parents are standing in line, my mother sees one of the Gestapo officers that she knows because he was her younger brother's. Had a friend who lived on the street where we had the store. And he was his parents. His mother was German. His father was Dutch. He was an only child. And he befriended my uncle. And he loved coming to my grandma's house and eating her food and being with the whole family because we had a lively situation and he was kind of lonely. So they were friends like you befriend anybody. But he. Guess he turned to be a soldier, wanted to be a soldier because he thought it would improve his stature in life or his situation or his whatever, that life would be better. So my mother saw him, my father saw him. And he gave them the eye and that they should not say hello. And he had the list with our name on it, our names. He took our names off the list. Had he not taken the names off the list, I would not be sitting here. My grandmother, my granddaughter Danielle would not be alive because we would have all been murdered in Auschwitz because the rest of the people we didn't know, but they were all being deported East. We didn't know about Auschwitz. It was called East. They had told us that we were going to go for hard labor. You know, people were going for hard labor. Now, in retrospect, what did they think.
- [20:40]
Sammy Sage
You were doing previously?
- [20:42]
Rhodey Glass
Not much. Not much, whatever it was, but they. They wanted you. They didn't want you to think that they were going to murder you.
- [20:48]
Sammy Sage
Right.
- [20:49]
Rhodey Glass
Because they didn't want people to. To rebel, you know, or to stand up to. To retail, you know, try to fight it. So I don't know what they were going to fight it with anyway.
- [21:01]
Sammy Sage
Right. What do you think made him cross you off the list? Just that we were. You knew what would happen.
- [21:09]
Rhodey Glass
Yeah. You know. Right.
- [21:11]
Sammy Sage
So only the people in the camps didn't know but everyone guarding them knew.
- [21:18]
Rhodey Glass
Soldiers knew. The Gestapo knew. The German soldiers knew. But the population didn't know. The people didn't know. Nobody knew. Not only in the camps, you know, people didn't know nowhere. And you know, there was no, Remember, there was no media. There was no, no news. You weren't allowed to have a newspaper and it would have been in the newspaper anyway. And you're not allowed to have radio. And then it was no television.
- [21:53]
Dr. Naomi Bernstein
Hello oversharing listeners. It's Dr. Naomi Bernstein with some exciting news starting January 13th. Our oversharing calm the Fuck down subscription is getting even better. Subscribers will get oversharing episodes a day early, plus additional exclusive bonus content on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month. Here's what's new. One bonus episode with even more emails and advice, and another where we follow up with past email writers who could be you. While we won't be releasing new meditations in the new year, don't worry, all of our past meditations will stay available on the feed for you to enjoy anytime. Plus we'll have a new Meditations playlist for our Spotify listeners. To sign up now, head to subscribe.basches.com and select Oversharing. Calm the Fuck Down. We're so excited about creating this new bonus content, talking to more of you, hearing your stories, sharing some of our own, and reminding us all to calm the Fuck down.
- [22:50]
Ryan Reynolds
This episode is brought to you by the Nissan Armada Pro 4X. With a twin turbo V6 engine, ready to propel your adventures up to 8,500 pounds of towing capacity to haul all your favorite toys in space for eight passengers, Nissan's most powerful car yet will chew up and spit out anything you throw at it. Learn more about the all new 2025 Nissan Armada at nissanusa.com Towing capacity varies by configuration. See Nissan Towing Guide and Owner's Manual for additional information. Always secure cargo still getting around to.
- [23:22]
N/A
That fix on your car? You got this on ebay. You'll find millions of parts guaranteed to fit the it doesn't matter if it's a major engine repair or your first time swapping your windshield wipers. Ebay has that part you need ready to click perfectly into place for changes big and small, loud or quiet. Find all the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. But you already know that ebay things people love Eligible items Only Exclusion Supply.
- [23:57]
Sammy Sage
So after you were not on that list anymore, where did you go?
- [24:02]
Rhodey Glass
Back to the barrack. And as luck would have it the same uncle who knew the German soldier was walking down the street near our store, and a woman who worked for an attorney said to him she knew him. And she said, you know, there was a guy who is in cahoots with the Germans. Not Jewish? No, A Dutchman. And he can keep you from being sent east. That's all we knew is being sent east. Okay. And my uncle said, and how does he do that? Well, you have to pay him 120,000 guilders, which is like $120,000 per person. And my uncle wasn't even 20. So he says, well, I don't know. He said, I have to talk to my father, because they didn't, you know, he didn't have any money. And he went home and he said to my grandfather, and he called him Daddy because, you know, they were raised in England. He said, daddy, this. And this was told to me. He says, but we don't have it right, because you. You had to give all your stuff to the Germans. And that's what my grandfather said, but I didn't.
- [25:21]
Sammy Sage
Oh, what did he keep?
- [25:23]
Rhodey Glass
He kept most of it and gave it to. We were in the leather business. And leather hides have to be tanned to become shoe leather. And he was very good friends with the tanners for years from his business, but they were not Jewish and lived on the south of Holland. And they took all his. He gave them all his diamonds. And he had loose diamonds. I don't know why, but he did rot. And money. And they were hiding it for him. They said, we'll hide it for you till you come back from the. You know, everybody thought they were going to come back.
- [26:01]
Sammy Sage
Wow.
- [26:02]
Rhodey Glass
Oh, he called them. They had a telephone, and we had 11 people. So you do the math. Now we're talking way over a million dollars. That was a lot of money in 1942. Wow. And besides that, he had the money come back. He paid the guy the money. And I say he was a gambler in a way, in a good way, because the guy could have just kept the money for himself, or he could have reported us to the Gestapo and had us all killed because we didn't follow the rules, or he would have done the right thing. And he did the right thing. We got what was called a spear. It's called the diamond spare, it was called. And this paper came through while my mom, dad and I were still in Westerbork. After we did not go east and they got it, my grandfather got our papers to Westerbork, and we were released and went Back to Amsterdam the first time.
- [27:05]
Sammy Sage
Wow. Was this a common thing, that maybe, you know, that average non Jews were doing that you just had to kind of find the right person?
- [27:17]
Rhodey Glass
No, it was not a common thing. And another thing was that there were other Jewish businessmen, not a lot that could have done the same thing, but they were distrusting of this thing and didn't do it and never lived to see the light of day. So sometimes you have to take a chance in life. Right?
- [27:38]
Sammy Sage
Well, the way I see it is, of course you pay for this, because the other option is you lose the money either way. What's the other option?
- [27:49]
Rhodey Glass
This guy. This guy is not real. It's. He's distrusted it. They. They were. They were distrusting of him and. And didn't think that. That. That he was going to do the right thing. And they said, we're not doing it.
- [28:03]
Sammy Sage
And maybe he wouldn't have, but they would have ended up in the same place regardless.
- [28:07]
Rhodey Glass
That's right. That's right.
- [28:09]
Sammy Sage
So you might as well take the chance.
- [28:11]
Rhodey Glass
So that's what, thank goodness, my grandfather did.
- [28:14]
Sammy Sage
Really, Truly. So you went back to Amsterdam.
- [28:18]
Rhodey Glass
Okay. So as the months went on, we had to start wearing Jewish stars on. Our clothing had to be sewn on, and, you know, we had ration coupons. So the Jewish stars came on as. It was like the. I'm sure you've seen as like a gold color. And it says Jew and Dutch in, like, Hebrew sort of letters. And we had to pay textile coupons for it. We had to pay for them. They made the rules, but we had to pay for the people. The population had to pay for it. But, you know, people started to disappear. The Jewish people. My father's family was gone. They were all murdered in 1943. There was nobody left, but we didn't know where they were. We didn't know they were gone. We knew they were in camps, but we didn't know what. You know, my family didn't know what was going on. And then they decided they were going to take over our businesses, you know, so they put German soldiers in the business, and they couldn't stay because they had to go fight in the front. So they put the Dutch Nazi collaborators in our businesses and took over our houses. We had to move out of our houses. They moved us to a. First. First we went back to Westerbork again with my grandparents. This time and again the Speer got us out. And then. And then after that, we had a move.
- [29:41]
Sammy Sage
Was it the same paper? What did the paper say?
- [29:45]
Rhodey Glass
It said, first of all, I didn't say miss or mister. It says D U din D U S or the Jew Dieud M. They don't.
- [29:54]
Sammy Sage
Wow.
- [29:55]
Rhodey Glass
Because that was their aim in life, is to make you feel like a non person, you know, to dehumanize you.
- [30:02]
Sammy Sage
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Rhodey Glass
So. And it said, for the time being, you're not being sent East. But the time being is also very. What's the time being? Could be five minutes, could be five years, could be five days. It could be whatever time anybody decides. But that's what it said. So then there weren't many Jews left in 43 in Holland because some had gone into hiding, even though the Jewish Committee, the ziotrat, told them not to go in hiding, which was another bad thing, because more people survived hiding than survived the camp. But they were trying to cooperate with the Germans to save their own lives, which in a lot of cases, they didn't. They got killed as well. So then they took us out. So then the Germans are very orderly. So they decided. They took all the Jews that they could find in the Netherlands, in the whole country, and moved them all to Amsterdam into a. They formed a ghetto, a ghetto without barbed wire. We all lived in the same neighborhood.
- [31:10]
Sammy Sage
Was there any consideration between being released from Westerbork the second time, that you should leave the Netherlands? You couldn't point.
- [31:20]
Rhodey Glass
You couldn't. It was occupied by the Germans. The borders were closed. As a matter of fact, going back to the beginning, before 1940. My grandfather had bought passage for all of us to go to Portugal and to get on a boat to go from Portugal to England. And then Hitler said to the Portuguese government, if we find out that you help Jews, we're going to invade your country. So they closed the border and he lost all that money. And we could not go to Portugal. You couldn't get out. There was no way. And furthermore, you couldn't get to the. You couldn't get anywhere because all the countries around you were occupied by the Germans. You know, unless you went into the sea and started swimming to England, which was not a likely thing that anybody would do.
- [32:13]
Sammy Sage
And also. Also being bombed heavily at the time.
- [32:18]
Rhodey Glass
Right, right, right. And so In September of 43, we were living. They took us out of our homes. Not us, only that. Whatever they could find. And we all lived in the same street, kind of. My aunts. My aunts had gotten. My mother's aunts, my sisters. The four sisters were married. As a matter of fact, her youngest sister was married. And she was walking after she was married six months in 1941. She was walking in Amsterdam and there was a Nazi raid, they call it Razia. And they took her husband, who was only 23, 24 years old, from her arm. They murdered him in Mount House. So she was a widow at 19. There's no end to the atrocities that the Germans, how they ever thought of all the stuff that they did. So Anyway, so September 43 was the last raid, last transport out of Amsterdam. All the Jews that they could find were in Amsterdam to Westerbork. My mother's sister, who was born right after her, two years later, you know, younger, had her English passport with her because she was English, you know, and it wasn't expiring till 45. And she went to the consulates in Amsterdam and they couldn't do anything for her. You know, you try everything to save your life. So somebody said to her, don't leave, don't lose it, take it with you. So she stuck it in her underwear when she was being arrested and took it with her to the camp, to Westerbork. And there was a woman there who came, a Nazi woman. And I saw her described in the war museum in London recently. I had never, you know, I knew who she, her name, but I had never seen anything that she was really, that she was real and she was, they had the description of her there. And she got a meeting with her somehow and said she was born in England. And she said, oh, if you're born in England, you go to Vitel, which is in France. So she says what about my husband? And she says no, he's Dutch. She says no, he's not Dutch, he was German. Which wasn't true. But when Rotterdam got bombed, all the there was the archives were all in Rotterdam and it was all burned down. There were no computers, remember, they couldn't find any papers.
- [35:00]
Sammy Sage
Right.
- [35:01]
Rhodey Glass
My family were pretty smart thinkers at the time.
- [35:05]
Sammy Sage
They need to be.
- [35:06]
Rhodey Glass
Yes. And she said he was German and stateless because you know, German. Hitler had taken away the German Jews citizenship. They were Jews, but they weren't German. So she's okay then let him go and we'll see if he gets caught then it's your fault. So then she went back to all the barracks where all we were and as luck would have it, including my grandparents who were not born in England, my father was not born in England. I was considered British because I was my mother's child. And we all ended up going to vital.
- [35:43]
Sammy Sage
Wow.
- [35:44]
Rhodey Glass
So what was there is east of Paris. The Germans took part of the town because it had hotels. Not for us to live in hotels, but for prisoners. They had rooms. And Vitel was not an extermination camp. It was a POW camp. And they were sure that they were going to win the war and that we were going to be exchanged for their POWs. Nine vital. There were people Jewish, non Jewish, whatever religion, but you had to be born in North America, South America or Great Britain. And so we were imprisoned, but we weren't being killed yet. If the war would have lasted a few months longer, they would have sent us all to Auschwitz. And there were people during the war that bought forged papers like my. He later became my uncle, my aunt, my youngest aunt whose husband was murdered. There was another gentleman who was born in Berlin and his parents. And they had bought Honduran passports. They didn't know where it was or what it was and, and they had phony passports. That's how they got to Vital and survived.
- [37:07]
Sammy Sage
Wouldn't it be suspicious, wouldn't it have been strange to the Nazi, you know, the Nazis or the occupying forces that these Jews just suddenly had passports or papers from Honduras that just didn't bother them?
- [37:23]
Rhodey Glass
No, but so they, I don't think they ever met the people face to face that much. But what did happen in Vital was there was a whole family, big family from Poland, Jews, they happen to be Jewish. And they had bought forged papers. And somebody in the camp, I can't even imagine how sick this is, but it's true, went to the Nazis and betrayed them and said their papers were forged. And the Nazis said, okay, you're being, you're going back to Poland. And they are the ones who told us that there were extermination camps. They told us.
- [38:11]
Sammy Sage
How did they know?
- [38:13]
Rhodey Glass
Because they had been in, they had lived in Poland, they were Polish, they had more knowledge than we had, you know.
- [38:22]
Sammy Sage
How is knowledge shared?
- [38:24]
Rhodey Glass
You just talk to each other. Lots of rumors, lots of blah, blah, lots of, you know, but you all talk to each other.
- [38:34]
Sammy Sage
So when there, when new people came in, it would be, oh, we put.
- [38:38]
Rhodey Glass
Together their knowledge with our knowledge, together.
- [38:42]
Sammy Sage
Was there any form of like inner resistance in small ways within these camps?
- [38:50]
Rhodey Glass
Not, not violently, not with guns and stuff like that. I mean, my father had to work in Westerbork in the tailor barrack because they saw on his, you know, on his papers that he was a tailor by trade and so he had to repair German. He wasn't a tailor for the prisoners, he was a tailor for the German uniforms. And they had one little stove in the barrack. And they would sometimes like burn some of the fabrics. That was their only. That's what I mean, their sabotage. You know, my grandfather worked in the shoemaker barrack. He had to repair their boots and stuff like that. And they try to do things, but.
- [39:34]
Sammy Sage
That'S really more what I mean. Like small acts of.
- [39:37]
Rhodey Glass
Small. Small acts of sabotage was more sabotage than resistance. So. But these people I was telling you about, these Polish people, they were going to move them back to Poland and they knew what was going to happen to them and they all committed suicide. It was like a Masada. Wow. They didn't want to go back. They knew what was going to happen so they could die by their own hands.
- [40:04]
Sammy Sage
What was the reaction to that amongst everyone?
- [40:09]
Rhodey Glass
Shocked, to put it mildly. I mean, people were appalled. I don't know if they ever got the guy who betrayed them, but I mean, can you imagine being so horrible to do that? Yeah.
- [40:21]
Sammy Sage
Did people try to run away?
- [40:23]
Rhodey Glass
Not really. They couldn't. There was no way you could get out of that barbed wire, you know, there was no way.
- [40:41]
Sammy Sage
As you were. As this was developing and worse, you know, the. The circumstances were actually getting worse as you were getting older and therefore more understanding. How did that, like, shape your perception of the world and perception of things? Like, at what point were you conscious of what was going on? Or did you maybe not even realize till later the full reality?
- [41:07]
Rhodey Glass
That's true. The latter, what you said is right. I didn't. I. First of all, you have to remember, I didn't have any education. I knew how to read when I was four, while I was still in college. It was a whole other story. And that's it. That's all the education I had. I had no education other than that I had no friends. I was always. I was very fortunate that I was with my whole family, with my mom and dad, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles. They were my safety net. I guess not. I guess. I know. And I didn't realize. Well, when we got back to Holland, I knew that we had been in a terrible situation because I had to catch up with everything. My parents, my family were lucky to survive, but had to start all over again with nothing.
- [42:01]
Sammy Sage
So what was it like when you got out? Like, what was the moment of liberation?
- [42:07]
Rhodey Glass
Well, we were liberated in September of 44 by the most wonderful army in the world, the American army, usa. Retrospect, we were liberated from the Germans, but we were not liberated from anything else. From the grief, from the pain, from the worry, from the anxiety. What do you do now?
- [42:33]
Sammy Sage
So they just let. So they let you out of the camp and do they send you home? Do they send you? Where do they send you?
- [42:41]
Rhodey Glass
They couldn't send us home because Holland was not liberated till May of 45. And this was 9-9-44. So they sent us to another spa town in France, little further south of Paris. It's still a spa. They became displaced people, displaced persons. And they took care of us, you know, we got Red Cross packages, you know, for food. And then In May of 45, we heard that Holland was liberated and they gave us papers. And In June of 45 we went back to the Netherlands. Was your family and my father's whole family had been murdered. He was the only one Left out of 7 Sisters, brothers, children, grandchildren.
- [43:35]
Sammy Sage
How did your family start to rebuild? Like you just re enrolled in school. And how did. How do you even begin to start to go back to a life?
- [43:46]
Rhodey Glass
Hard to imagine how they did it. First of all, the Dutch government started in my situation, my own. They started a school for all the children. The people my age, there weren't that many. They came back from the camps and we all were in the same grade, you know, we were all not the same age, but we all didn't have the same amount of knowledge. It was none. So we had to catch up and we had to be taught so we could go to regular schools. My. As far as my family rebuilding, I don't know how they did it. I really, I. They must be, must have been. They were strong people and resilient people because they went back into stores. And my father, with his own hands threw out the Nazi that was still in the store and threw him on the street. And my grandparents moved back into their house, but there was no merchandise to sell because this is post war. There is no merchandise. But my mother's other brother was a captain in the Royal Air Force. He was in England and fought during World War II. And he sent some merchandise over and they started. It's like post Covid, right? Everything went down and now everything is back up. It's. That's how the only way I can compare it, you know, everything comes back to life. So I went back to school, I learned, studied hard in my own. I mean, I'm just saying I don't want you to feel sorry for me in the least bit. But I didn't have any friends or social life. I was too busy studying, learning, catching, you know. I was not interested in social. There was no social life, right? So went to high school in Holland for three years.
- [45:42]
Sammy Sage
Emotionally, how did that play out for your family, for the people around you? I mean, there must have been other Jews, you know, other families who were in sort of similar situations or were also trying to rebuild. Was there a community around that?
- [46:01]
Rhodey Glass
This is a good question because come to think of it, nobody kind of stuck together. They all went their own way and tried to survive or revive in their own fashion. And I guess it made people strong. I mean, it made people very strong that they had to restart their lives again and to find out with the grief. And just think of. All their property was gone, all their household goods were gone. Everything was stolen. You had nothing. We had no clothes. I always say my mother reinvented the open toed shoes because she cut open my shoes. So my, my, my, you know, I'm, I'm short, but I, but my shoes got too small so she cut open and so my toes would stick out. You know, that's. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:51]
Sammy Sage
I mean, do you think maybe it was a different in America? Because I, I think about how post Holocaust all of these communities popped up and you know, like the Lower east side and in, and in Brooklyn and Queens and also in other cities like, you know, in Boston and Philadelphia, all along the east coast or, you know, some in Canada. My, my dad's parents were in Auschwitz and then became displaced persons. And then they were trying to get into the United States and my dad had been born in Canada because, because of that and he wasn't able to.
- [47:27]
Rhodey Glass
They went to camp, they went to.
- [47:29]
Sammy Sage
Canada and then they.
- [47:30]
Rhodey Glass
Because it's the only place they could get in.
- [47:33]
Sammy Sage
Yeah. So how did you know in. I guess were there fewer people who tried to go back and rebuild in Europe than who tried to get out of Europe?
- [47:43]
Rhodey Glass
Well, I don't know about Europe. You know, all I know about is Holland and a lot of. There's not that many Dutch Jews in Holland now because of what happened. A lot of people that did survive immigrated. You know, they didn't get there anymore. And people made remarks like, my father would walk down the street and I told you he was a twin. And some guy said to him, oh, I guess the good twin got murdered. Oh, or my, my grandmother and grandfather on my mother's side had six children and they all survived. And other Jewish people were envious of them. You know, you have nothing to complain about. You still have all your children. Which is, was true, but my grandmother never complained. But I mean, you know, people had their own angst, you know, they had their own misery. It Changes people's personalities, of course.
- [48:51]
Sammy Sage
I mean, I can't think of anything that would change. That makes more sense that it would change your personality.
- [48:57]
Rhodey Glass
I don't know how people in America would handle this because, I mean, fortunately or unfortunately, most of the people are so. They have such an entitled world that I don't know how they would survive.
- [49:09]
Sammy Sage
Yeah. Well, let's talk about today, post October 7th in Israel. That was obviously by number, by. In terms of sheer numbers, and I think emotionally the most tragic event to happen to Jews since the Holocaust, specifically because they are Jews. And what we've seen in the wake of that is not just a tragedy in the Middle east, but attacks on Jews in America and abroad. So how are you feeling post October 7th about what you've seen from within the community and the way that Jews have been treated? Are you seeing echoes of that? Like, do you feel that it could happen again?
- [49:56]
Rhodey Glass
Okay, well, when I have said in the. When I speak that how we lived in the Netherlands, as I told you before, that we lived like Dutch people. We were not segregated because we were Jews. But in retrospect, it was an illusion. Okay. My question is, do we live in an illusion in the United States?
- [50:25]
Sammy Sage
I think many would say we do and did and always have.
- [50:30]
Rhodey Glass
No. But I don't know why they would say that we have because the Jews have never. Well, Jews have been.
- [50:36]
Sammy Sage
Well, back in the day. Yeah.
- [50:38]
Rhodey Glass
I mean, back in the day when the Jews came. Yes.
- [50:42]
Sammy Sage
What I find kind of the. The most astounding part of the opinions, the way that people view Jews is that just 10 years ago in 2014, the opinion that people had of Jews was the highest it had ever been. And now here we are 10 years later with the most anti Semitism and wrong impressions of the Jewish people. So how did that go to such a peak, to such a level?
- [51:13]
Rhodey Glass
They really thought so highly of us.
- [51:16]
Sammy Sage
I actually do. I think that Jews were highly. Were the most assimilated and well regarded within culture that, that I had.
- [51:27]
Rhodey Glass
Not by everybody.
- [51:29]
Sammy Sage
Never by everybody.
- [51:30]
Rhodey Glass
But.
- [51:31]
Sammy Sage
But in terms of the mainstream culture.
- [51:33]
Rhodey Glass
Is the question that I have at my age and is, why are we hated? Why are we hated? We have never started a war. Remember that. We've done a lot of good for this world. We have brought a lot of medicine and music and culture. Not that other people haven't, but we've done our fair share. We have a lot of Nobel Prize winners. We've done a lot for the world. And we as Jews. And I will. I mean, I don't know anything about medicine and I'm not that smart. But I feel that Jewish people cannot hate. It's not in their DNA to hate as fervently as these people who in, for instance, did this thing on October 7th. Jews don't hate. I mean, you know, there's, you know, yourself, you like some people better than others, but you don't hate with a passion. It doesn't consume you.
- [52:33]
Sammy Sage
I don't feel that hate is innate or even really a part of the Jewish culture, the Jewish religion, the Jewish spiritual outlook. And I look, you ask, why do people hate us? Any answer I could come up with could also just be, oh, it's antisemitism. And I think Jews are in many ways a paradox. We are small, but have achieved a lot.
- [52:58]
Rhodey Glass
And whose fault was that? The Christians?
- [53:00]
Sammy Sage
Look, you're looking at it.
- [53:01]
Rhodey Glass
Yes, because they limited our ancestors, let's go back the thousands of years. They limited them to what they could do. And so when you're limited and you can only do what you go look for other things to do. And that's how you develop the smarts.
- [53:18]
Sammy Sage
Also, when you persecute, when you persecute a people throughout generations, every. The ones who survive are going to be, I mean, if you believe in Darwinism, the ones who survive are going to be quite a sharp bunch in, in the ways that, that, that can get passed down.
- [53:39]
Rhodey Glass
That's right. But they're resilient and, and very. Yeah, but you know what, but like for instance, what I was saying about hate when I saw October 7th, I happened to be on an airplane going to London, so I didn't know what was going on. I was there for the film festival with my film and when I got off the plane and my phone was kind of like developing a life of its own. It was, you know, when I turned it back on because I had so many messages, I almost fainted in Heathrow Airport. And I thought, oh my God, here we go again, I better get home. But then when I saw on TV these little Palestinian children crying because they don't know what's going on. These children, these babies, these little children, that was me. You know, it doesn't matter if you're Jewish or whatever you are, Yitzma's me and that, you know, children should not be subjected to this. I don't know why people do what they do. I'll never be able to answer it. I wish I could. I wish I could make it better.
- [54:47]
Sammy Sage
Have you spent a lot of your life wondering, you know, on that question.
- [54:54]
Rhodey Glass
Yes. How people can be so cruel? What gets to people? I know why the Germans did what they did. I know why they were ready for Hitler. I understand all that.
- [55:06]
Sammy Sage
Why can people be so cruel?
- [55:09]
Rhodey Glass
Why? And what makes people think that they can annihilate a whole, a whole culture? They've never been able to do it.
- [55:18]
Sammy Sage
They've never been able to do it. There's always been forces in this world that do seek to do that.
- [55:25]
Rhodey Glass
Absolutely.
- [55:26]
Sammy Sage
Not just of the Jews either. No. I, too ask myself the same question. Why not just live?
- [55:34]
Rhodey Glass
Why do people have to fight? You know, I mean, you're young, I'm old. But when I was your age, I thought life went on forever. I know now it's not. And it's, you know, I'm going to the bottom of my coffee can, so to speak. But, you know, why can't. You know, I think if you speak to most people, I don't care if they're Palestinians or Moroccans or whatever, whatever, people who hate the Russians, Ukrainian, you know, whatever, all the women, all the people, mostly the women want is to live their lives, cook for their family, have their grandchildren, have a cup of tea together and live till they die. They don't want to fight, they don't want to hate. It's just these idiots, these, these men, these, these. The testosterone is too much.
- [56:34]
Sammy Sage
I'm with you.
- [56:35]
Rhodey Glass
That's why I say women should run the world. I always. I've said this forever.
- [56:40]
Sammy Sage
So just to close out, do you have any advice for living a full, long life so that we can take it ASAP and make the most out of whatever's to come in the next years, decades, everything?
- [56:56]
Rhodey Glass
Well, I, you know, I speak to a lot of students, young, high school, grammar school, whatever. And I always tell them, please do not hate, because hate is a useless emotion. It eats you up more than the person you hate. Lead with love. Like each other. You don't have to, you know, just because they're a different color doesn't make any difference. Just be nice. Be nice to each other. Lead with love. Don't hate. Hate consumes you, you know, and leads.
- [57:33]
Sammy Sage
Us to where we are now.
- [57:35]
Rhodey Glass
Always did. And you know, in the Haggadah it said every hundred years the Jews get persecuted, so.
- [57:41]
Sammy Sage
Well, it seems like it's coming up a little early. 20 years early. I thought we had a few more decades left till that was going to happen.
- [57:49]
Rhodey Glass
But that's why we live in this era that we think everything is fine, but it's an illusion.
- [57:58]
Sammy Sage
Well, my prayer and hope is that our generation can bring us closer to something very different than what we've seen in the past, maybe with some women leaders. Well, thank you so much, Rhodey. This is such a wonderful conversation.
- [58:19]
Rhodey Glass
I loved it.
- [58:26]
Bea Speer
Sammy, I'm so grateful that you were able to take the time to meet with her and lead this conversation. I learned a ton and am really grateful that she was able to give us the time and that we can use her example for how to better manage any kind of terrible situation in the future. I mean, it doesn't have to, of course, and hopefully won't be as extreme as the things that she went through, but at scale. I really am grateful for her wise words on this.
- [58:53]
Sammy Sage
Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important that we keep these stories alive, as horrible as they are, and that people, especially as there are so many Holocaust deniers, that this happened. This happened to this person who I spoke to, whose granddaughter I know and am friends with. And it's just heartbreaking and so important that, I mean, for me, it really helps me keep perspective. Like most people throughout history have lived under much worse circumstances than we have as Americans. And there's a lot that I hope that, you know, we haven't taken for granted.
- [59:31]
Bea Speer
Absolutely. Well, we'll be back this Tuesday with our regularly scheduled episode. I hope that you will join us then. Thank you for giving us the time today. Until next time. Time. I'm V. Speer.
- [59:43]
Sammy Sage
And I'm Sammy Sage.
- [59:44]
Bea Speer
And this is American Fever Dream.
- [59:46]
Sammy Sage
Good night. American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatsick Social media by Candice Maniga and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok etchesnews and follow me, Sammysage, Sammy and the under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to americanfever dream@betches.com.
- [60:21]
Rhodey Glass
Betches.