The Pitfalls of Popularity & Pod Save America

Summary

American Fever Dream: Episode Summary – "The Pitfalls of Popularity & Pod Save America"

Release Date: December 3, 2024
Hosts: Fee Spear and Sammy Sage
Presented by Betches Media

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of American Fever Dream, hosts Fee Spear and Sammy Sage delve into a multifaceted discussion that intertwines pop culture with the current political landscape. Skipping over promotional segments, the conversation quickly transitions into an analysis of how media popularity can both influence and hinder political movements, using "Pod Save America" as a primary case study.

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2. Broadway and the Power of Art

Wicked and the Influence of Musical Theater

The episode begins with the hosts reminiscing about their favorite Broadway productions, particularly Wicked, highlighting its emotional impact and its reflection of contemporary societal issues.

• Fee Spear [02:09]: “I loved it. They did justice in having real sets, limited CGI... everything was so present.”

Connecting Art to Personal Growth

Fee and Sammy discuss how musicals like Rent and Wicked shaped their perspectives on topics like popularity and societal expectations.

• Sammy Sage [04:50]: “It planted the idea that popularity means fake and precarious... not about aptitude.”

The Role of Art in Society

Fee underscores the importance of art for societal reflection and resistance, emphasizing that art provides a "healing dose of perspective and humor."

• Fee Spear [05:45]: “That's the power of art... we need art for these reasons now.”

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3. Transition to Political Discourse

From Broadway to Politics

The conversation shifts from theater to the broader political environment, setting the stage for a critique of current media practices within the left-wing sphere.

• Sammy Sage [09:06]: “That's also the thing with our show... we try and we start the game over.”

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4. Critique of "Pod Save America"

Dissecting the Podcast’s Shortcomings

Fee and Sammy provide a critical analysis of "Pod Save America," a prominent left-wing podcast, arguing that it failed to resonate effectively with its intended audience.

• Fee Spear [18:05]: “Jack. I love Jack. Yeah, I mean he really. Is he okay?”

Failure to Connect with the Base

The hosts argue that "Pod Save America" became an avatar for elite frustrations rather than addressing the real concerns of the average listener.

• Fee Spear [19:56]: “...we're living in a country of consumption and they don't know how to stop and reflect.”

Over-Reliance on Celebrity Endorsements

They criticize the podcast’s dependence on celebrity endorsements, suggesting that this strategy is outdated and ineffective in the current media landscape.

• Fee Spear [22:37]: “The idea that we have to satisfy that purity thing among their audience.”

Mismanagement and Money Issues

The discussion highlights the podcast’s mismanagement, particularly in fundraising and audience engagement, leading to a disconnect and loss of trust.

• Sammy Sage [35:20]: “They do not understand how people receive information... which is more like a late stage Monet than an old master.”

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5. Broader Critique of Left-Wing Media and the Democratic Party

Disconnect Between Elites and the Working Class

Fee and Sammy argue that the Democratic Party, mirrored by media outlets like "Pod Save America," has become insular and disconnected from the working-class voters it seeks to represent.

• Fee Spear [43:34]: “Working class is no longer white men in a union providing for a family of five.”

Ineffectiveness of Established Politicians

They critique long-standing Democratic figures like Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris for failing to deliver tangible results for their constituents.

• Fee Spear [25:00]: “Bernie Sanders is not a successful legislator... he does not represent black people or Latino people.”

Need for Authentic Community Engagement

The hosts emphasize the necessity for genuine grassroots connections and community involvement, contrasting it with the top-down approach of current left-wing media.

• Fee Spear [32:50]: “It's easy to platform other people... invest in people to make sure that they know who is the expert on this.”

Mentorship and Representation Issues

They highlight the lack of mentorship and representation within the Democratic Party, pointing out the challenges faced by younger politicians like Maxwell Frost.

• Fee Spear [45:50]: “They see everything as a board game... I have to show him the ropes.”

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6. Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

Emphasizing Resilience and Authenticity

Fee and Sammy conclude by stressing the importance of resilience in political activism and the need for authentic engagement with communities. They advocate for a media landscape that prioritizes genuine connection over elite-driven narratives.

• Fee Spear [42:07]: “I'm criticizing them for getting money, allowing that to become a shield and not a sword... I want Spider-Man rich, not Batman.”

Call for Grassroots Movements

The episode wraps up with a call to action for listeners to engage in grassroots movements and support authentic voices within their communities, moving away from reliance on elite-led media.

• Sammy Sage [56:35]: “You can make a difference without having the most power.”

Final Remarks

The hosts reaffirm their commitment to providing a platform that bridges pop culture and politics, aiming to empower listeners without contributing to the prevalent sense of despair.

• Sammy Sage [59:22]: “And I'm excited to watch what she does and how she does that. But... you can make a difference without having, like, the most power.”

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Notable Quotes

• Fee Spear [05:45]: “That's the power of art... we need art for these reasons now.”
• Sammy Sage [04:50]: “It planted the idea that popularity means fake and precarious... not about aptitude.”
• Fee Spear [22:37]: “The idea that we have to satisfy that purity thing among their audience.”
• Fee Spear [43:34]: “Working class is no longer white men in a union providing for a family of five.”
• Fee Spear [42:07]: “I'm criticizing them for getting money, allowing that to become a shield and not a sword... I want Spider-Man rich, not Batman.”
• Sammy Sage [56:35]: “You can make a difference without having the most power.”

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Conclusion

In "The Pitfalls of Popularity & Pod Save America," Fee Spear and Sammy Sage provide a compelling critique of how media popularity can undermine political efficacy, particularly within left-wing circles. By dissecting the failures of "Pod Save America" and broader issues within the Democratic Party, the hosts advocate for a more authentic, grassroots approach to political activism and media engagement. This episode serves as both a reflection on current media practices and a call to action for more genuine community connections.

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Transcript

[Sammy Sage]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Fee Spear]

I don't know if you knew this.

[Sammy Sage]

But anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[Fee Spear]

It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have.

[Sammy Sage]

One of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Fee Spear]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra default [e-mail] I'm sick of boys fighting and like one upping each other and being petty at the same time. I'm at the fucking lawyer. Me and Natalie are like, oh, we're not gonna do Christmas because we're going to the lawyer. Because I gotta put together these fucking documents to create a marriage. So when they overturn marriage equality, I have a protective partnership with my wife. That's the shit that working people are doing, normal people are doing while you're tweeting about your limp dick and trying to get him on your show. Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm Fee Spear.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm Sammy Sage.

[Fee Spear]

And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betch's News, where we explore the.

[Sammy Sage]

Absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience.

[Fee Spear]

Speaking of odd. Wicked, Absurd.

[Sammy Sage]

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so we are the Tuesday after Thanksgiving and we have both been transformed forever by switching.

[Fee Spear]

We have. We've changed for good. For good, if you will.

[Sammy Sage]

For the better.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Because I knew you.

[Fee Spear]

What did you think? Because I knew you.

[Sammy Sage]

I loved it. I mean, come on.

[Fee Spear]

She got a Broadway girly.

[Sammy Sage]

So. I'm not a Broadway girly now, but when I was younger, I was into certain musicals and I do like plays, particularly like one hour plays with like one or two people in them and like a simple set. I love something like that.

[Fee Spear]

She's a black box girly. She's a black box theater girly.

[Sammy Sage]

There's nothing I love more than a black box theater. But, you know, rental hairspray, Chicago, Wicked. Wicked was always in my canon and I have seen it twice. And I love the movie. What'd you think?

[Fee Spear]

I loved it. And I've seen Wicked on Broadway a couple times and I am a Broadway girly. And I kind of had this moment of like, well, am I gonna like it as much as the stage show? Am I gonna feel it as much? And then I like hysterically cried the entire Time. I'll tell you, they did it justice in having real sets, limited cgi. That singing, the dynamic, the chemistry between the whole audience. Everybody was so present. Whoever this director is, I don't. I just.

[Sammy Sage]

John Chu, he's incredible. Yeah, he did a spot on Morning Joe this morning. He was talking about how he built out that whole set and that every place you could actually go into, like all those stores. And honestly, like, I felt that it was better for screen than for Broadway because it was, you know, you could get the fantasy and, you know, you don't need to put the goat in like a mask or something.

[Fee Spear]

Oh, poor Dr. Dillman. Which character are you? Do you think you're an Elphaba or a Glinda?

[Sammy Sage]

I'm neither.

[Fee Spear]

I'm the Wizard. We left you a scammer. Not really, but you know what I mean. Like, not in the worst way, not in the bad way, but in the way that you really want things to be magic. And I could totally see me when we left. I was like. Of all the characters I would ever be cast as, the wizard was the highest. Let's assume I had all the talent in the world. Right? They would never cast me as Elphaba or Glinda. But I do have a shot at the Wizard.

[Sammy Sage]

I have no shot at any of them. But I think I'm a slightly more Elphaba than Glinda. But not a Nessa person. No, not a Nessa.

[Fee Spear]

Watch out for her. People are like Nessa. Fangirling. Not to lack too. Oh boy. She earns that Wicked Witch of the East.

[Sammy Sage]

Don't they know?

[Fee Spear]

They don't know.

[Sammy Sage]

I do kind of love people discovering this after and also revisiting it in my own mind. Cause it's such a well formed world and series. And I think this could be the beginning of a full cinematic universe.

[Fee Spear]

I hope so.

[Sammy Sage]

I want to visit one. One thing, one theme of the movie as where, you know, obviously this is a movie for our time. The New York Times did a whole op ed second, you know, all their opinion writers did a whole conversation about how it really maps very cleanly onto the way people think about things like whether you're on the right or left. You can see yourself as the one who's crusading for truth against, you know, these oppressive forces. And one thing that I not thought about for a while, but the song Popular is obviously one of my favorite songs, favorite scenes. And what it reminded me of was when I first saw the play, I guess, like right when it came out, when I was. Was young. Like, I guess maybe I was, like, 13.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

It sort of, like, put a new spin on the concept of popularity. You know, you're, like, in middle school and you're in high school, and, like, you care about being popular, and you're learning. You're sort of learning to navigate that socially in your head. And I feel like that song put in my mind a sort of sense of unease around the idea of popularity, because it sort of, like, planted the idea to me that that means fake, and it means it's precarious. And you have to always be trying to do things to win other people's love. And it's not about aptitude.

[Fee Spear]

It's the way you're viewed.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah. And it made me just think back on how when. At a formative time for understanding, like, do you want to be popular? Is popularity important to prioritize? It kind of, like, gave me a refreshing view on that, and I think it's one that I've kept with me.

[Fee Spear]

That's the power of art. Right? And that's why we need art, and we hope that Donald Trump doesn't defund the National Endowment for the Arts, but we need art for these reasons now. When I was 13, the musical Rent came out, which is why I wanted to be. I wanted to move to New York City and be on drugs. I wanted to be a sex worker on drugs in New York City. But, you know, we. We all grew up a certain way. Can I. I thought that looked so cool. I was like, why wouldn't I want to live in a drafty loft with all my friends and do, like, stage shows at a coffee house and struggle? That's what I want out of life.

[Sammy Sage]

You know what's so funny is that Rent was also hugely formative for me, but I was in, like, third and fourth grade listening to Rent, which was so inappropriate. But also, I was too young for it to be a feeling.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And now, as I've gotten older and listened to it at various times in my life, I'm like, I can't believe my mother was letting me listen to this. And I would ask her, like, what is a stache? What is. I didn't understand what I was watching.

[Fee Spear]

You're like, it's a literal candy bar. No, it's not. Yeah. No. I was so weird about Rent. I had this Rent T shirt. Cause my older cousin loved Rent. And so, of course, then I had to do everything Kristin did because she.

[Sammy Sage]

My campground screen name, had Rent in it. It was like. And we were so young.

[Fee Spear]

I was crazy. I had this black and white Rent T shirt that I used to wear with a long sleeve thermal, white, thermal under it. I'm telling you, like every day. My mom had to like peel it off of me to wash it because I was obsessed with it and I would listen to it all the time. I performed that over the moon thing that Maureen does in there, in coffee houses in my hometown, like on open mic nights, like to. To thunderous acclaim. Like I was too obsessed with Rent. I was very weird about it. And then.

[Sammy Sage]

Can you do that now?

[Fee Spear]

Oh, I absolutely could. Absolutely.

[Sammy Sage]

We should do a stage show. Can you explain that? I would love to do a stage show in a little black box theater.

[Fee Spear]

Yes.

[Sammy Sage]

Can you explain over the Moon to me? Because I didn't understand that at all as a child. And now I'm thinking about, I'm like, what the fuck?

[Fee Spear]

We'll do a. We should do a full. Like Sammy and V's special interest breakdown. Yeah, it's about, you know, breaking capitalism and like, you know, the government and whatnot.

[Sammy Sage]

Just like in cyber land we only drink Diet Coke.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah. It's about a dystopian future and that's where we are right now. An over consumption over like, you know, it's the Elon Musk future that he dreams of.

[Sammy Sage]

I think I need to do a full listening session later. Maybe watch a movie with girlfriend.

[Fee Spear]

Yes. Sammy and V's special interest, Broadway edition.

[Sammy Sage]

Because I think it'd be fun.

[Fee Spear]

Email us if you have a show. Because then after Rent came Aida and then I was obsessed with Aida and my screen Name was Amneris 1321. All right, back to Wicked. You know, was amazing. It was amazing. And I think it is reflective of the times. Not as reflective as Hadestown where they have that song Build the Wall. Why we build the wall. If you haven't seen Hadestown, it is very Trumpian coded and it's one of my favorite musicals. Not just cause my wife was the Broadway cellist for it, but that's a good reason. It's phenomenal. It was a good reason. I've seen it many, many times. It's a great show. And what I learned from that show and that I carry with me today is the idea of showing people the world that could be in spite of the way that it is. And even if you know that things will turn out bad, you try again. You keep trying. And that's the thing with the show. We know that Orpheus will turn around. We know that it won't work out, but we try again. We try again.

[Sammy Sage]

That's also the thing with our show.

[Fee Spear]

Yes, we. We try again. Here we are.

[Sammy Sage]

We are gonna. And we are gonna talk to you more about the promise of American Fever Dream. Do you believe in the promise of American Fever Dream?

[Fee Spear]

I do. Sammy and I. Sammy and I. This show came from me and Sammy's friendship, largely, like in our group chat, and wanting to bring it out into the greater world because we're really good friends.

[Sammy Sage]

Well, first I voiced you off on Amanda temporarily. Cause I had too many shows. But now we're the perfect amount of shows.

[Fee Spear]

I loved Amanda, too. I still do Amanda's Fire.

[Sammy Sage]

I love Amanda.

[Fee Spear]

Yes. And the iteration of the show we have now really comes from me and Sammy's friendship and this idea of, like, you know, including more people in the group chat. Because so often we feel lonely in our ideas, and I often feel the most lonely when I want to be positive about something, when I want to be like, yes, this is terrible, and we can do something about it. Right? A lot of times. And I've seen this, unfortunately, since the election with creators on TikTok who have fallen into such incredible despair and conspiracy content and just. You could tell that they're exhausted and it's because we are a country of consumption and they don't know how to stop and reflect. I didn't even realize I took a month off. Really. Like, I did a couple videos here and there, but I haven't done a YouTube in a month. We've sort of, like, taken time to reflect.

[Sammy Sage]

It's a light use of time off, but. Okay, true.

[Fee Spear]

But for me. But I mean, in terms of, like, giving yourself the time to mourn something, and then through that clarity, you can say, okay, you know, like, I talked to Natalie and my team, and I was like, what am I gonna do with under the Desk going forward? Because I got a little confident. I haven't really been physically under the desk in probably over a year because I was like, oh, it's okay. It's, like, safe to come out here. And I'm, like, out on stage now, and I'm, like, touring and I'm doing different stuff. And she was like, I think you have to go back under the desk. You started under the desk during Trump's administration. The first time we created a space for people to learn that wasn't scary and that they could count on just being steady. And so over the weekend, we put the desk back together, and tonight we start under the desk again. The way that it was because there is some safety in going back to what was what worked before. Because we will get through this, right? Like we're going to get through the Trump administration. There's only two more years until the midterm election when we can do Congress and the Senate again. I do think that people will emerge as helpers, and I also think that we're going to see a lot of pain and disappointment and strife and struggle and weird shit. But we'll be back under the desk. And so that was my promise on under the desk, is that I'll be back under the desk. It'll be something familiar that we know worked before, that you can count on. And then Sammy and I were talking about, what's the promise of American fever drinking? What are we promising people? What's the reward for giving us your time? Other than our Broadway analysis, I mean.

[Sammy Sage]

Other than the Broadway analysis. I think that is why people come to me, to listen to me, a hater of musicals, talk about musicals. What I think is that it has been really hard to see the reaction that feels very nihilistic and maybe rightfully so. But what I think we want to do here is get back to our roots, which was the original purpose of Betch's news, which is to have fun, to discuss things in a way that is lighter, because you can get the doom and gloom so many places. You can get that everywhere. You can also get to be completely tuned out if you want to go other places. But we want to stand in the middle of that and continue to really discuss what is that intersection of our culture and what is happening that you need to know about in the news. And, you know, what is happening is really the fabric of what makes our lives, whether we realize that or not. And we want to be a protective layer against all of that, whether that means in terms of what we will help you maybe practically do to the extent we can or advise to the extent we can, and also continue to really be a space to lighten up to the extent that you can. Because I know it's really hard to let go, and especially when you're focusing on it, it's hard to just totally tune out. And you kind of want to doom spiral. But I don't know. I grew up on the Daily Show. I grew up on Bill Maher.

[Fee Spear]

Chelsea.

[Sammy Sage]

Handler, even Kelsey Handler, like all these people who really inspired me to see the cross section of culture and entertainment and politics. And that's what we're going to continue to be. We want to entertain you. It's okay to have fun. And honestly, you know, we, Emily and I talked about this in our book Joy and Hope. Those, those are disciplines, they're choices, and they are actually forms of asserting yourself against an oppressive regime or against the powers that be and really leaning into your joy and being present in it and allowing yourself take time where you can is a re. A reward for yourself. And that is a form of quote, unquote resistance.

[Fee Spear]

It is. And you know, I grew up on Ricki Lake and Phil Donahue and Diane Sawyer, so you're gonna get a little of that too. We're gonna be a little bit Ricky Lake show and that maybe we'll have on the worst people in the world, but we'll always be on your side when we're interviewing them or something. I will always love that Ricki Lake episode when she had Fred Phelps, the founder of Westboro Baptist Church, on and he was saying the most disgusting, vile, shitty aw to her. And she was only 24 years old at the time. And I remember she was standing in the audience and she's like, get the fuck off my set. This is my show. You don't talk to me like that. And like, she, we've interviewed her before and she was like, in my ear is the producer going, he can't leave. He can't leave. Because this is like the guest for the day. And she's like, get the fuck out of here. Like, I want, I love Ricky. Like, we'll get Ricky on the show, but we're going to bring back the nostalgia, the fun. I used to say, I hope you listen to this show as you're walking around home goods shopping. And now with Trump's tariffs, we won't be able to do that anymore. So I hope you're listening to this show. A little bit of wine or like a fancy iced tea somewhere in a comfy couch under a blanket with your gal pals. And then you're also talking about what's going on because it's about in person connections and building these small sort of groups now.

[Sammy Sage]

Yes, exactly. In person connections. Which actually was originally my reason that I had included my thoughts about popular in this outline. Although I didn't put it in the outline. I just wrote popular popularity. So precarious. That is what we want to talk about today. We want to talk about the pitfalls of popularity when it comes to the most popular podcast on the left, Positive America.

[Fee Spear]

Hello, oversharing listeners. It's Dr. Naomi Bernstein with some exciting news. Starting January 13th, our Oversharing Calm The Fuck down subscription is getting even better. Subscribers will get oversharing episodes a day early, plus additional exclusive bonus content on the 2nd and 4th Thursdays of each month. Here's what's new. One bonus episode with even more emails and advice, and another where we follow up with past email writers who could be you. While we won't be releasing new Meditations in the new year, don't worry, all of our past meditations will stay available on the feed for you to enjoy anytime. Plus we'll have a new Meditations playlist for our Spotify listeners. To sign up now, head to subscribe.basches.com and select Oversharing. Calm the Fuck Down. We're so excited about creating this new bonus content, talking to more of you, hearing your stories, sharing some of our own, and reminding us all to calm the fuck down. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Welcome back friends. We are here to tell you the question that has been floating around all weekend in left wing media circles and that is what happened to POD Save America? And obviously we are the perfect experts on this as people who have never been on the show. But we're here to tell you what what we have saw and look, this is not going to be a Pod Save bashing because honestly I don't think that that helps anyone. And the left is like loves to admonish and I'm not like admonishing. We we've gone through and kind of looked at like what is media as it relates to like the promises we're making on our show. Not because we like think we should advise anybody else on what to do on their show. But you know, POD did not save America apparently. And according to Jack Schlossberg, the Kennedy's only grandson, Pod Save my limp dick. I could not believe he went so crazy. Jack. I love Jack.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, I mean he really. Is he okay?

[Fee Spear]

I don't think so. He's going through a breakup too. It seems like he's got a lot thing. It seems like.

[Sammy Sage]

I thought he was kidding.

[Fee Spear]

Is he kidding? I don't know.

[Sammy Sage]

I could never tell he's kidding he's.

[Fee Spear]

Acting like a crazy person after a breakup. So I feel like maybe it's real.

[Sammy Sage]

Maybe the breakup is with American democracy.

[Fee Spear]

Maybe it is. It's.

[Sammy Sage]

Maybe it is a real Save America.

[Fee Spear]

He is no longer a listener, as it turns out.

[Sammy Sage]

I do enjoy his performance art or whatever it is he's doing. I appreciate it. It's a weirdo. That's my.

[Fee Spear]

Kennedy is weird and in the media, not politics. I can't vote for a Kennedy or a Clinton. I'm so sorry. I've done my best.

[Sammy Sage]

Or you. Well thankful if you get to vote again.

[Fee Spear]

So I don't do political dynasty families. I also won't be voting for a Pelosi. I can't.

[Sammy Sage]

Don't write off your options when you.

[Fee Spear]

When you.

[Sammy Sage]

Till you have the election. I wouldn't. I wouldn't worry about that. See who your opportunities are before you make any commitments. Which is, I think, what we want to talk about. Because that, I think, is where this extreme criticism and backlash is coming for them. Because there's two pieces of this. There's the backlash at the campus campaign, which. Oh, boy, that's its own piece. But then there's the backlash at Pot Save America. Partly because maybe they. People think Dan Pfeiffer wasn't. Didn't push back enough on the interview. Personally, I think it's good that he didn't because it made them comfortable enough to say exactly what they felt. And I think that that's more helpful as a historical document than if they had felt defensive or if they had felt like they had to make certain.

[Fee Spear]

Points like how we interview serial killers and we have to pretend like the things they're saying are normal. So they keep telling us where the bodies are.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah, yeah, just like that.

[Fee Spear]

It's just like that.

[Sammy Sage]

But I think what they have come to represent, partly because of what the premise of their business, what they said it was, they've come to represent an avatar for what everyone is mad at about the left and this failure to make inroads in new media in a way that has built a broad and trusting audience. Because who was supposed to appeal to men if not them?

[Fee Spear]

Four white dudes who were on the Obama staff. Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Which people on the left have been mad about them being for the past several years. And I don't know, like, want to talk about the campaign first and then we'll talk about the Pod Save guys. Okay. So they had the campaign managers on the show. And I'll be honest, I listened twice because it was that I was in disbelief at their inability to at any point say, we got this wrong. We looked at this incorrectly. We fundamentally failed to consider X, Y and Z. And there were a number of things that they did fail to consider. If the best, like oopsies was that we were too careful about the legalities between Super PACs and the campaign. That's like going to a job interview and being like, oops, I'm too much of a perfectionist. That's my biggest weakness. It just, it came across as justifications, defenses, but it also revealed how much they do not understand about the new media ecosystem and about the way that what they would call maybe the working class, but what really should just mean everybody, because a third of Americans don't vote. So you're not reaching them. They do not understand how people receive information. They don't understand how they perceive the landscape, which is more like a late stage Monet than an old master. Maybe if we're gonna go use elitist language.

[Fee Spear]

Annie Wu put it really well early on and she was like, they so badly want the Taylor Swift endorsement. They think that's gonna win the election, but that's not gonna do it. It's gonna be like all these other things, like we need to not worry so much about the Taylor Swift endorsement. That's not gonna win us the election. And she was talking about how that was like a thing that apparently from the inside of the campaign, they were like very like even when Biden was president, like, oh, once we get Taylor Swift, it's over. We're going to win. And I think that reliance on celebrities is very dated. I think, you know, there was a time when Oprah's favorite things would sell out. Right? They don't anymore. You can't present change and campaign with the Clintons and the Obamas and Liz Cheney and all the people who have been around for so long. Right.

[Sammy Sage]

And if you want to talk about money, it seems like so much money went out the door to put on these huge productions. When Donald Trump doing the dance with Aiden Ross on a TikTok with the car, that is actually what people connect with. And I think that this is where the campaign advisors and the pod save boys intersect is that they're all living in a top down reality where we're linked, we're living with a king making mentality and we're living in a grassroots world where people, more people connect with and find interesting the regular influencer or face that they see who they just think is really smart and interesting. And maybe none of those people are like household names. But those people can have more influence on the way the average American is thinking about things across all demographic groups. Like they're thinking about people as like working class, white, educate white, college educated people, black, non college educated people in Philadelphia. And it's like, yes, all of those people do have interests and they have a different way of thinking about things. But the common thread is that they approached all groups like it was 2012, not like it was 2023 or 2024.

[Fee Spear]

You just talked about the working class and the college educated people and the whatever. I have never liked Bernie Sanders as a politician and that is a hot ass take. And some people are very mad at me because they're like Bernie, Bernie and the Bernie bro of it all. Which again speaks to the kind of 2014, 2015 landscape of politics. This like Bernie delusion, illusion, whatever we want to call it. Bernie Sanders could not get the black vote because he did not include black people in his version of working people. Vermont is 92% white, 1.3% black, okay? And he's held office for 40 years there. So I really don't give a fuck if he marched with King. Where have you been since the idea that Bernie could speak for working people While he for 40 years has been fairly isolated from representing black people? When you consider 1.3% of Vermont is black, you are not representing black people even if you marched with King. None of his plans ever worked out. Going all the way back to 2020 when Mike Bloomberg tried to call Bernie out saying over 15 congressional sessions this man is at. He's been a member of the House and then the Senate and Sanders has only ever had three bills directly become law. That's just 0.7% of the 2421 bills he has sponsored during his legislative tenure. That's an awful lot of stumping and talking and promising and not a lot of delivering. I added that part two of these laws that he got passed, of the three he's ever got passed, were to rename post offices in Vermont, okay? This is the second lowest ratio for any current senator who has ever served across 10 or more sessions. And further, he can't even get his bills out of committee. Sitting senators successfully passed their sponsored legislation through at least one chamber about 14% of the time. But Sanders average was 1.9%. And he, when Mike Bloomberg said this, he got roasted to fuck on it. And I can hear the Bernie Bros now. Well, at least he tries. At least he's trying. Trying is not enough. Are you Effective, no move out of the way.

[Sammy Sage]

Also, it's really not that hard to put your name as a co sponsor on a bill that you agree with and that is popular. So he could have increased his ratio simply by just engaging in bipartisan or even partisan politics, but he won't because.

[Fee Spear]

He wants to maintain this idea of being like not a Democrat, a Democrat until he has to like get money in caucus from the Democrats. He wants to be an independent and a leftist and a visionary and all these different things until he needs some money and then he caucuses with the Democrats. But what are you doing for the left? This was the issue with a lot of the rhetoric on TikTok and everything too is like the far left. What, what did you accomplish by protest voting, by bumming people out, by constantly admonishing anybody who put effort anything if it wasn't like perfectly leftist enough, the idea that you have to pull somebody down to pull yourself up. Bernie Sanders is not a successful legislator. He is an 83 year old man who has held office for 40 years. He is the establishment. And he has only ever really recruited to be his like super fans white male, college educated liberals. He does not represent the working class, no matter what he did with King or for unions or what he says because he's never passed legislation to actually improve the life of working people. He does not represent black people or Latino people or whatever, whatever other not white you can think of because he represents the state of Vermont which is 92% white. And there was a woman on TikTok who was talking about the people who kept throughout here. I think Kamala Harris has a great understanding of how to speak with and for and to black women. Like undeniably, of course, this is her culture, this is what she grew up in, this is who she is. And she continued to be pulled back from it and pulled back from it and don't talk like that and don't lean into that because it wasn't what Hillary would do or Bernie would do or who any of these people would do. But none of those people could get the older black vote. And it's almost like older black folks won't vote for Bernie Sanders because they remember and they lived white men marching with King. And then what have you done for me lately? You know what I mean? I think they are rightfully suspicious of his needing black voters, but not centering the needs or even knowing those voters in a genuine way in a very, very long time. But that's my rant on Bernie. Let's go back to some other white dudes who maybe don't know the voters the way they once did.

[Sammy Sage]

There's so much to say with Bernie and the position that he's occupied in the party and in some ways that he has been effective at platforming certain ideas and conversations. But there's. I have a real aversion to reactionaries and I just don't understand why every communication in politics seems to boil down to one person saying one thing and the other person can only ever be like, no, not that. And no one ever seems to come over the top with a new argument about how to explain something. So like in this race it was like, basically you're saying, Democrats are for trans rights, Republicans are like, Democrats are crazy about trans rights. And the Democrats are then saying, no, we're not. Instead of making the argument, why should you care about trans rights? Why should you leave this up to medical professionals? How do you appeal to people in a way that resonates? And so all that ever happens is like, no, no, you are worse. Like you, you have to do this. You are imperfect. And I think also the pod save guys, because they were responsive to the left, did get caught up a little bit in that, like, we have to satisfy that purity thing with. Among their audience. And for that reason they ended up sort of being unappealing to the average guy because they were so wonky and they didn't really ever get past politics. They're, I think really, the fact that they never really were able to expand into the culture, lifestyle, social media space of it all is why they were not able to dominate in, in ways that they could have. They could have.

[Fee Spear]

They're not interested in us. They're not interested in us. They're nice to me. They're. And I have, I'm. Again, this is not like a criticism of the entire business, but it's not just us.

[Sammy Sage]

It can just be in general.

[Fee Spear]

It did not as an example of like an influencer, right? Or like a TikTok person or something. They, I don't think that they see that as valuable. What I have seen like as an outsider looking in is like even going to some of their events and whatnot, like fun and they're great. But the way that they sort of self isolate to either only talk to themselves or better than like they'll, you know, go out of the way for Jen Psaki or the Clintons or Obama or any of the other staffers. Like, they stay pretty insular even when they invite influencers and different things into their world. It's not like they provided mentorship to anybody the way that, you know, other like Joe Rogan, I don't know that provides mentorship. But he certainly is more in touch and he inspires more people to do what he does on the right. They don't provide that kind of like space for people.

[Sammy Sage]

What he'll do, what Joe Rogan will do and what I think happens with those right wing people, maybe because they're all white men.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Is because they all have these like network effects with each other. And so the promise of crooked media was that it was going to be the new Fox, it was going to be the new Fox News and this new hub for progressive media to challenge right wing media. But you can't do that if it's only going to remain a very limited slice of people who again, and I think again it comes, it comes from this like top down view of all of them are in this like stratosphere where they could get like any journalist or any household name probably answers their calls exactly like in one degree to come talk to them for the most part. And that is not the status and access that 99% of people have. And if you aren't using that access to then trickle down, essentially trickle down access, you are not going to be able to build enough network effects in order to create progressive media as you say you want to build it. And I don't know like where that mission didn't penetrate. Like you say, maybe it's just like a personal, a personal way that they are like maybe you just need to be more like bigger personalities that are saying we can make this happen beyond just ourselves and our shows and what we see.

[Fee Spear]

It's easy to platform other people. Right. So another Gramma ism, A Hungry Dog works. They ended up in, in being first, there is a lot more opportunity afforded to you. There's money, there's, it's new, it's, it's investable. They ended up getting like a ton of money for ads they didn't have to. We have to sell ads. Like we have to, we have other work we have to do other than talking on the show to make the show work. And they sort of had like a little bit of like, because they were first, they had a little bit more support to get that going. Then as it started to raise up in money and whatnot. The idea that I hear from, from them a lot is like, well if you just listen to me then you'll be good and if I have more access and more whatever then I'LL just be the singular filter where even with under the desk news, I constantly put new people. I'm like, I don't know this, but here's a person who does. I don't know this, but here's a person who does. I never got from them. Here's a person who does. Even in the guests that they bring on, it's sort of like, okay, that was for me. And now I'm still the best person for you to come to. I think the new media is going to, like, skirts can only get so short before the maxi dresses back in. The new media is going to replace. My grandma is very present on the show. New media is going to replace what local news used to be, which was 20 or 30 people who cared about their local community telling stories. From that point of view, there's not one anchor anymore. We will not have another Rachel Maddow or any of these, like, key single people. It's you regular people, citizen journalism. And I know they fucking, oh, it's me. Yeah, it's me. Because I'm like, I don't fucking know. Here's 16 other people who know, like, I'm just good at bringing all the people together and then being like, hey, follow her, follow her and watch her shit every day. Not, oh, come on my show so I can take everything that you do in one clip and then never speak to you again. I invest in people to make sure that they know who is the expert on this. I invest in Elizabeth Booker Houston, who's so incredible and a wonderful lawyer. And I'm like, don't. Don't. Just watch the story on her. Follow her, watch her shit every single day. Watch Alicia lunch and every day, watch Quentin Giles every day, watch all of these people, because it's all of us together that's gonna break this, like, media empire bullshit thing. Especially once Trump starts taking away CBS's broadcast license or jailing journalists. It's going to be us.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. And just going back to the. What you had said about, you know, the hungry dog eats or whatever.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And I say this as another person whose business got very, very lucky with the timing. Because you can't be really successful. And I mean, everyone who's really successful. It is. There is luck and timing. As much as you work hard and you prepare, there is luck. And that is how it works.

[Fee Spear]

Absolutely. You hit. You hit the right place in a bottle. Right, Right.

[Sammy Sage]

And anyone who is, I think, had that can be honest about that. They happened to hit at the time when resistance liberalism was extremely Popular. And they were coming from the most popular administration. They were the communications people for the most gifted order in 100 years. So they have a. Our first black president to thank for their visibility, for their credibility. And where did the. It doesn't feel like they paid it down at all.

[Fee Spear]

And like, you're saying, like, journalism, which everybody hates. Right. Access journalism.

[Sammy Sage]

It's act as punditry. It's like, not. They're not. They're not a newsroom, like.

[Fee Spear]

Right. But they didn't pay it down. And that's why people are fudgeing mad. They're mad because you promised us if we gave it all to you, you would give it, we would get what we needed. It's like the people who gave millions of dollars to Kamala's campaign. You told us we were close. We were not fucking close. So then it feels like a lie. And it's not an intentional lie, maybe, but it's like, at what point did this stop being personal to you? At what point were you high enough that you were isolated from it? At what point do we give the Supreme Court justices body details because they're making such bad decisions that now they need Secret Service protection? It just furthers that place between the people who are saying, we gave it to you. We trusted you. We gave you our money, our subscriptions, we bought your merch. We tuned in. We gave you a million and a half downloads an episode. We gave it to you. You were getting Joe Rogan numbers and whatnot, and we didn't get it back. We didn't. We learned, but we didn't build community. We didn't win.

[Sammy Sage]

Well, here's the thing. They now are getting more popular, and this is what really kind of drives me crazy about the whole ecosystem is, like, the more mad people are at them, the incentives are for them to kind of play into that more, because the bigger microphone you have, the more you make people mad, and the more people are tuning in to, like, see what the drama is. On the other hand, I'm like, well, the better their podcast does, the more they can. Are likely to keep their. Be able to keep their employees. Because in a cyclical business like that, especially going into the Trump administration, who knows what would happen? Like, and so, you know, I don't want them to fail.

[Fee Spear]

No.

[Sammy Sage]

At all. I just.

[Fee Spear]

I'm rooting for you. We were all rooting for you.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And it's kind of like a win win now because, like, you know, now Jon Favreau can tweet at everyone who shit Talks him on Twitter and be like, come on the show.

[Fee Spear]

I don't think that out live piss me off so much. And it goes back to the Clinton era thing of the President never apologizes. Right. And I know that these boys wrote for the President forever and ever and whatnot. This idea that the President never apologizes everything is an opportunity to continue whatever forward. So when Jack Schlossberg says, pod, save my limp dick or whatever, that's something you ignore. Jack Schostberg doesn't actually expect you to see that. That was for him and his people. That wasn't. I don't think. I think it was for him and his people. I don't think it was for fucking John favor. Maybe he wanted him to see it and stew about it, but he didn't want him to try and turn it into an opportunity for John Favreau. So it's like he says, pot, save my dick. John's like, oh, maybe one of our sponsors can help you with that. I don't know. Love to have you on the show because that would benefit him. Now you're stupid to me. I thought that was the stupidest shit in the whole world because I'm like, I'm sick of boys fighting and like one upping each other and being petty at the same time. I'm at the fucking lawyer. Me and Natalie are like, oh, we're not going to do Christmas because we're going to the lawyer. Because I got to put together these fucking documents to create a marriage. So when they overturn marriage equality, I have a protective partnership with my wife. That's the shit that working people are doing, normal people are doing, while you're tweeting about your limp dick and trying to get him on your fucking show. That shit is where, look, we have found the. The righteous indignation. That is why people are mad, because they're like, how the fuck you were supposed to save me from something that I am now a victim of? Greatly. And you're being smug still.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. And that's all the interview sounded like. It sounded smug. It sounded like we couldn't have done any better and you should thank us for this. Meanwhile, the people who this exists for outside of their scroll are dealing with it.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah. In.

[Sammy Sage]

In reality. And they're worrying about, will I lose these benefits. People are worried about will I lose Social Security? Will the Department of Education be abolished? And will my child who has special needs, will they need what will they need to do? What is going to happen with their schooling?

[Fee Spear]

That's what Real people are doing. The day that Trump won, people in the fucking world we live in said to me, v, this is going to be great for your career. No, it's not. I'm gonna lose my marriage. My, my kids are gonna go to fucking school or whatever's going on with them. Like, what do you mean, good for my career? But there are people who have the money and the power and the access and the, and the delusion that will be isolated from this. And I think that is the mistake that Podsafe made was like, well, this is gonna be great for the podcast because, like, you know, now we can kind of like be that reactionary neolib media again. And it's like, your people listen to you.

[Sammy Sage]

We're not.

[Fee Spear]

The people who listen to you are about to get absolutely fucked, brother. Like you. You don't, they don't have class solidarity with us the way that they did. And you don't recognize that the folks who tune into you, you are supposed to give them something, right? Like I feel overly protective of the dust bunnies, but like, those are my babies, right? Like, they give me the life I have and in return, I will do everything I fucking can to make sure that everything I know, you know, and I. And over there they're being smug and they. And that pisses me off.

[Sammy Sage]

I think the feeling that is missing, I'd say, like, it's this top down idea. It's like I can get George Clooney on the phone.

[Fee Spear]

Sure.

[Sammy Sage]

And I, I think when you live.

[Fee Spear]

In an $11 million mansion in LA.

[Sammy Sage]

But I think when you think about what we, what we do and look, I don't want to pretend like I'm like not also doing very well for myself because this isn't really for me, you know, I know as we're criticizing them for having money, like it's.

[Fee Spear]

I'm not criticizing them for having money. I'm criticizing them for getting money, allowing that to become a shield and not a sword. I'm criticizing them for saying, oh, well, now I've, now I've leveled up and now I'm a shield from you. I'm different than you. As opposed to a sword, something that they could fight up with, or a ladder. Or a ladder. A different tool, a different tooling hook. I don't know, something good. I want Spider man rich, not Batman. Okay? Batman's a villain.

[Sammy Sage]

That is the difference. It is, I think that, I don't know, maybe it is part of not being like a rich white man, but it's. I Feel like I've never felt really different than like any other person who could be in the Betcha's audience. Like, it could have been that, like they could have been my friend who I started or I could be reading their blog when I was younger. And when I feel like I find funny creators or like I don't care about their size, like, it's not about, like, how recognized are they? It's like, and I think that that's kind of what's missing is that. And obviously it's not like, oh, you can, you can't promote and support everybody and you can't help everybody. But it's like there's a connection with people that goes beyond, oh, you're my audience member, right? Versus like you're just another person like me and this is my job and that's it. And, and there's not really like a, a membrane between you just because of who you are and because of your name. And I think that that is kind of emblematic of the divide that exists between the Democratic elite and the people who they are neglecting to reach. It's that sort of feeling of like, we are distant. You are over there. And that's why I think working class also doesn't really work anymore as a term or a catch all. And the way people think about the labor force needs to just be very, very different.

[Fee Spear]

Working class is no longer white men in a union providing for a family of five. Okay? And they still treat it like it is even. We see in the military community the, the fact that like Veterans affairs and veterans used to have a lot more clout when it came to being the voting bloc that they are. There are a lot more people who are dentists, doctors and McDonald's workers than veterans now. We don't. It's not like when the boomer, you know what I mean? Like, it used to be that so many people were a veteran because, you know, all the way up through like Vietnam stuff, and now it's such a small voting bloc that they're willing to fuck with it a little bit more. So you can't come out and be like, I'm for the troops, God bless the troops, the way that you would in the 90s or the 80s or the 70s even, and expect that it's gonna work the same way. We don't have that much.

[Sammy Sage]

People also just have so much more access to you as a person to know if you're actually for the troops or if you're just like putting out a message of bullshit.

[Fee Spear]

Are now women who need abortion and OBGYN care because they're stationed in Okinawa and they need a flight to Hawaii to get any OBGYN care. There are 15,000 trans people in the troops right now. Who Trump's saying he's gonna get rid of them straight away. That fucks the chain of command in a level that is like he cannot comprehend. Pulling 15. Imagine 15,000 soldiers died today. We'd be like, holy fuck, that's a big deal. He's just gonna pull em out for no goddamn reason. That's the troops. But the way they talk about it now is the troops are World War II and Vietnam veterans, which they're not. And the working class is white men in a union who provide for a family. We need a reset on reality. And to your what we just said, this space between the people who are making decisions from the Democratic Party and the people who have historically and traditionally voted for them or benefit best from.

[Sammy Sage]

Their policies, they're not representative. The people making decisions are not representative.

[Fee Spear]

No. And then you get somebody like Maxwell Frost in there, right, who's young and hungry and awesome. And he does get it.

[Sammy Sage]

He's a great idea, he's part of.

[Fee Spear]

His community, he's a great person. But he's still held under. Well, you're a young buck, brother. You're going to have to pay your dues. You'll never get on a committee in a senior position because I've held that seat for 23 years.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. And how could he ever know enough? But that's where the lack of mentorship comes in.

[Fee Spear]

Why?

[Sammy Sage]

Why doesn't he know enough? Because there's no one who has shown, who's willing to show him the ropes because they think he's too young and not ready.

[Fee Spear]

We see competition in the Democratic Party. Well, what if I show him a rope and then he tries to take over that rope that used to be my rope. And when you're 80 something years old, it's a little harder for you to swing those ropes than 27 year old Maxwell Frost is. And so now they're threatened. And that has to do with the age of the Democratic Party. I talked about this on the Mega McCain Show. We talk about being the party of the youth and progress and whatnot. And the average age of our politicians is like 60 something. Theirs is much younger, Much younger. You could see yourself whether you like them or not. Josh Hawley's my age, right? Madison Cawthorn. Oh God, what a young Warren Poeburn. They're young. And so people who aren't in politics as much as we are. Look over there and go, you know what? That's a mom. That's a mom who went through a divorce. I know what that's like. I'm gonna vote for her.

[Sammy Sage]

They're also, even aside from their age, they also are genuinely integrated, like into their community through cultural things.

[Fee Spear]

They own a restaurant in town. Marjorie Taylor Greene owns a gym in her town. She just does.

[Sammy Sage]

Right.

[Fee Spear]

They are part of their town in a way that isn't the same as a lot of the Democratic elderly elite folks are, where they're a full time politician.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[Fee Spear]

Or like the Pod Save Boys, they're a full time podcaster. We're. We're still in our communities. And it's not to say it's one or the other, but you can't pretend to be the voice of people that you no longer know. And that's my problem with Bernie Sanders. That's my problem with the Pod Save boys right now. And a lot of different people in Democratic establishment who are like, they see everything as a board game and it's not. This is my fucking life. I'm glad it's your board game. And you say, oh, I rolled a 10 and I should have rolled a 20. If I had rolled the 20, I guess it would have been different. Oh, well, we try and we start the game over. Meanwhile, like I said, I'm down at the fucking lawyer's office trying to figure out if I. How to. How to craft a legal marriage.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. Asted. Actually tweeted that at him. Did you see that one?

[Fee Spear]

No, he.

[Sammy Sage]

I don't. It was like a reply he wrote. I'm glad you guys think this is all a game or something.

[Fee Spear]

Game. Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

Right. It's not like we're not and I.

[Fee Spear]

Campaign office anymore, guys. We lost and people are going to be hurt by this. We now need to meet them with mutual aid. I need you to be down here. Okay. Back to kitchen. When my line would go down, even if you were the expo, even if you hadn't been on the line a long time, your dishwasher calls out your lines, down, you're down. You have to be able to jump in and work. And I don't know that they could jump in and work. And so I don't want people around who can't jump in and work the line right now in whatever way that they can. I don't need you to be in the dining room and saying, dishes are slow. You're nine minutes behind on. On ticket times. Shut the fuck up and get in here and wash some dishes. Like, that's where I'm at.

[Sammy Sage]

Well, they did go canvassing, but I think what we realize is that canvassing is not as helpful as some thought.

[Fee Spear]

No, people lie in your face in canvassing. They don't want to be. People have so little time at home and they. They get up. I canvassed. They get up, they answer their door and they want you to have a good experience as a canvasser because they feel bad for you because it's hot out here and you're handing out some literature. So they're like, yeah, I'm gonna vote. I'll see you later. I think we got a lot of that. I think we got a lot of really fucking nice people who were like, oh, good job. Yep. And a lot of, you know, because they just want it to be over quicker.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[Fee Spear]

Do you ever argue with canvasser? No.

[Sammy Sage]

I mean, I don't get canvassed. But you. Because I live in New York and no one cares about us right now. That might change. Yeah. It's a very. A very. It's unfortunate. And I do want to touch on one more thing. Is the debt.

[Fee Spear]

Yeah.

[Sammy Sage]

And the Democrats are still asking for money. And let's play this clip from Lindy Lee, who was a bundler for Harris, and she talks about the actual impact of this.

[Fee Spear]

I'm interested. Lindy, you were on the call.

[Sammy Sage]

You were on the call today. There was this call today with the.

[Fee Spear]

Campaign and Harris was even on the call. What did they say?

[Sammy Sage]

We heard on the podcast, but what.

[Fee Spear]

Did they say on this call? Did they accept any blame? Did they sort of talk about mistakes that were made?

[Sammy Sage]

No, no, none. No responsibility, no accounting, no post mortem, no explanation.

[Fee Spear]

All they said was that she was.

[Sammy Sage]

A visionary leader, that the Biden Harris.

[Fee Spear]

Administration was a tremendous success. We didn't hear any sort of explanation.

[Sammy Sage]

For what exactly happened. This was not a squeaker of a race. This was not a close race. This is a serious shellacking and we need to understand why the difference, the delta between the expectations and the reality was so significant. How are you ever going to expect anyone to ever donate or to believe.

[Fee Spear]

In the Democratic Party again? Don't ask me for any more money at this point. We talked about raising a billion dollars. Like, I got an email from the DNC the other day saying, we just need $3 from you. And I was like, 1. Don't ask people for $3. It's so weird.

[Sammy Sage]

It's like we told you, we don't trust you. And you're further degrading that trust every day.

[Fee Spear]

So now I'm unsubscribing from everything, which means. And if I'm doing it, other people are too. And that means that we won't be reaching them in the midterms because you've, you've, you've blew it. You've, you've, you've showed up and like a, like a what? There's, there's this whole trend on TikTok of people talking about their man child husbands who, like, the woman has just given birth. And he's like, well, are you gonna make dinner tonight still? And she's like, no, you have to. And he's like, well, what, what should I make? And she's like, I don't know. Make them like, just heat up anything. Get a McDonald's. I just gave birth. And he's like, well, well, I never usually get it for them. And she's like, fine, I'll just do it. And that's how I feel about the Democrats sending me money emails. I'm like, I don't have a man child husband and I'm not sending you $3. Go figure it out.

[Sammy Sage]

Well, the other thing that's strange is that they don't need to raise money this way. They can do events, fundraisers they can do things with. They don't need to be texting Joe Schmo.

[Fee Spear]

Well, and maybe that's what they should do. I mean, the thing that Trump did well with raising money was keeping the donors happy and somewhat anonymous. He's got that venue, Mar a Lago, where he hosts all these dinners, where you come, you get to sit, hang with Trump for a minute. Makes it feel like he knows you, like you're a friend, you're on the end, you give your $10,000, you get a shitty airline chicken and some mixed veg and you go home. But that shit works. People want to feel like they're in, they're included in something right? Now look at what them, what they're doing with all the cabinet positions, because people who gave the most money, he's given cabinet positions too. Now, are they going to get confirmed? Maybe not. But, you know, it feels like a win to them.

[Sammy Sage]

It's just very embarrassing to see how mismanaged it was. And what were they paying attention to? One of the strangest things I thought was when Jen O'Malley Dylan, I think it was said that spending money on the sphere was not a Las Vegas play. It was about a culture play. It was like A culture play. I'm like, well, why would you. Why wouldn't it be a Las Vegas play? Even if it were was a culture play. That was so strange. And she admitted that they had paid street artists to paint, like, murals, which is so upsetting. Not cool.

[Fee Spear]

I mean, I'm glad for the street artists getting some money.

[Sammy Sage]

Yeah.

[Fee Spear]

But like.

[Sammy Sage]

But like.

[Fee Spear]

Well, that's again. And I'm back to a hundred dog. And I'm back to a hungry dog. Works, right? What would you have done if you didn't have that kind of money? How would you have strategized? Sometimes money can make you comfortable because you just throw a bunch of money at something, but it never does. It never works. You need that reflective, creative, like gritty, really getting in their time, connecting with people. And I agree. I think the astroturfing made it look to me and to so many other people. It reinforced this idea that she was doing so well. Look, all I see is her face everywhere. I see it everywhere. She must be doing great. She's gonna win, right? She didn't.

[Sammy Sage]

And that broke the trust.

[Fee Spear]

What do you think about Kamala running again in 2028?

[Sammy Sage]

Why the fuck would you do that?

[Fee Spear]

I'd vote for. I'd do it all again.

[Sammy Sage]

I would not.

[Fee Spear]

I'd do it all again. If she was allowed to have her people and not not be tied to like, creating.

[Sammy Sage]

I'd need to win a primary first of all.

[Fee Spear]

Well, she could win. Let's say she won a primary. I'd do it all again for her.

[Sammy Sage]

I don't think she'll win a primary.

[Fee Spear]

I think. I think there were so many mistakes made because we had to like, pay all this homage to the old folks. And I think it fucked us up. Even at the dnc, they had to make all this room for all these, like establishment Democrats to be there. And they cut things like the Tennessee three. They should have never cut the Tennessee three. They cut things like real Roman.

[Sammy Sage]

That would have gone super far. No, they. They purposely cut Rua Roman. I think you are discounting the fact that people do not connect to her the way you think they do. Look, I have supported her. I very much like her. But she has shown that she is not a good off the cuff speaker. She is not good at resonating without a script and that. That's not the world we live in. We don't live in a world where you can repeat things that are shallow. Like you won't even go off on the for you page.

[Fee Spear]

You have. Was that resonance I guess what I'm going to see is, was that her? Was that the campaign?

[Sammy Sage]

Of course it's her.

[Fee Spear]

Because I liked her in 2019. She was on fire, man.

[Sammy Sage]

She dropped out before there was even a vote. She had all this. But okay. Where she. She really gets a lot of momentum around small moments. And then when she's put under, under, like in the hot seat, it doesn't work. Like, think about her CNN town hall. That is not the campaign. That was her lack of answers and her. And her lack of ability to connect.

[Fee Spear]

So who do you think it'll be then?

[Sammy Sage]

I. I can't.

[Fee Spear]

AOC 2028?

[Sammy Sage]

I can't think about it. I can't think that far in advance because we're thinking about a totally different world. It's. It's way too far off. But the thing is, I don't think that you one needs to be president to be very effective or to make a really important mark or to make history. So, like me saying she shouldn't be president does not mean she should just go the fuck away. Like she should do. She should definitely do something to contribute to the civic fabric of America. And I'm excited to watch what she does and how she does that. But. But there's so many things you can be that are not president. And I think this idea that, like, we have that a politician, a successful politician, quote, unquote, is just more and more powerful in terms of title and seniority, that is a really damaging idea that I think we need to get away from. People need to think about who's actually good at doing what and realize that you can make a difference without having, like, the most power.

[Fee Spear]

True.

[Sammy Sage]

And I think AOC should take her time.

[Fee Spear]

I think she will. I think she threatened the president thing because I happen to know that she was kept from primarying Kirsten Gillibrand in New York for Senate this year. And I don't think that should have happened. And again, I think this is another thing where certain people in the upper tops put their little finger on the scale and they try to make decisions that aren't for the people.

[Sammy Sage]

Do you think that she.

[Fee Spear]

But I think she would have won senator in New York. Absolutely. And I think it would have been great for her career, maybe. I think she would have won Senate for New York. Of course she would have. Kirsten Gillibrand sucks. She's. What has she done against Kirsten Gillibrand? Come on. She. In a primary, she would have smoked Kirsten Gillibrand. I mean, I don't Want to be like, oh, she sucks, so why come on the show someday? But she's not my favorite. Because they wanted Kirsten Gillibrand to have more time. They thought it was a safe seat to not have to invest in and just run with the incumbent. They told her it's not her turn yet. They told her, oh, well, who's going to run for your seat? What if we lose Congress? It's going to be such a tight race this time. And they made her stand down, and that was fucking wrong. I don't think they should have done that.

[Sammy Sage]

Honestly, it is possible that she could have lost, given the way that things turned in New York. Based on who the Republican opponent was. If it was some, like, moderate kind of Democrat that is.

[Fee Spear]

Actually, I would rather. Here's the thing. I'd rather lose trying, I guess. And I. I don't think she would have lost it all, but I just.

[Sammy Sage]

She's still.

[Fee Spear]

Kirsten Gillibrand didn't offer anybody anything. People just voted blue because they voted.

[Sammy Sage]

Blue and she's the incumbent. And I mean, there's a lot more to talk about with the DNC because they also left a lot of races uncontested. It was not a well organized machine. From top to bottom. The party has failed.

[Fee Spear]

I would.

[Sammy Sage]

I put this more on the party than I even put it on Kamala Harris.

[Fee Spear]

Sure. Oh, I definitely agree. I think Kamala Harris is just much a victim of the party and of everything that surrounded it than anybody else. And also only having 107 days. What she did is incredible. Incredible. The culture that she captured in that amount of time. But I agree. I think the purpose of political parties is to win elections. And if the Democrats aren't going to win them, then there needs to be a different change. And if we're only going to have two systems, then this system needs to change. And Nancy Pelosi said she's running for reelection in two years, and I fucking can't. Okay. I just can't do it.

[Sammy Sage]

She didn't need to do that.

[Fee Spear]

She didn't need to do that.

[Sammy Sage]

Someone should primary her like a random San Francisco.

[Fee Spear]

We'll do it. We'll do a special episode on people who have tried to primary Nancy Pelosi and what happened to them. Remember when somebody tried to primary her? They tried. They challenged her for speaker of the House. It was every bit of like 12 or 13 years ago, because it was when I was doing political catering and the shit that went on behind the scenes to ruin this fucking man's life. We'll do a special episode on. On that. We gotta have tea. We're gonna have tea time with V. We'll call it the Dish from when I was in the dish pit overhearing all these assholes put shit together between 2012 and 2018. All right? But until then, I'm Vitus Speer.

[Sammy Sage]

I'm Sammy Sage, and this is American Fever Dream. Good night. American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzick, social media by Candace Miniga and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok etchesnews. And follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and the UnderTheDeskNews. And of course, send us your emails to American American Fever [e-mail] Betches.