1945: America & Victory in Europe

Summary

American History Hit: Episode Summary
Title: 1945: America & Victory in Europe
Release Date: May 8, 2025
Host: Don Wildman
Guest: James Holland, Esteemed British World War II Historian

---

Introduction: Commemorating VE Day

In this poignant episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into the dramatic final months of World War II, culminating in Victory in Europe (VE) Day. Celebrating the 80th anniversary of Germany's unconditional surrender, Wildman engages in an enlightening discussion with renowned historian James Holland to unpack America's pivotal role in these concluding chapters of the war.

---

The Battle of the Bulge: America's Crucial Stand

The episode opens with a vivid recounting of the Battle of the Bulge, the last major German offensive on the Western Front. Holland emphasizes the fierce resistance faced by American troops:

James Holland [04:16]: "The Battle of the Bulge is the biggest loss of Americans in World War II in one battle. 19,000."

Despite initial German advances aimed at splitting the Allied front line, American forces in strategic locations like Bastogne held their ground, leading to a decisive Allied counteroffensive that signaled the inevitable downfall of Nazi Germany.

---

Hitler’s Grip and the Path to Defeat

Holland explores Adolf Hitler’s unwavering control over the Third Reich and its populace, attributing the failure to overcome him to his autocratic leadership:

James Holland [04:47]: "He's a complete either-or kind of person, always has been. Either the Aryan race will rise up or will be consumed by Bolsheviks and Jews."

Hitler's strategic miscalculations, particularly his ill-fated invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, stretched German resources thin and opened multiple fronts, making victory increasingly unattainable.

---

Strategic Decisions: Tehran and Yalta Conferences

The conversation shifts to the critical Tehran (1943) and Yalta (1945) conferences, where Allied leaders strategized the post-war order. Holland highlights the agreements made at Tehran, including the commitment to unconditional surrender:

James Holland [11:45]: "At Tehran, Stalin has agreed with the Western allies... that the only unconditional surrender will do."

At Yalta, despite underlying tensions, leaders like Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin negotiated the division of Europe, laying the groundwork for the future Iron Curtain and the eventual Cold War.

---

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Leadership and Legacy

Holland pays tribute to Franklin D. Roosevelt’s (FDR) leadership, detailing his hands-on approach to military strategy and his visionary efforts toward establishing a post-war peace:

James Holland [22:36]: "He is fundamentally a good man. He wanted the world to be a better place when he left the world than when he was born into it."

FDR’s untimely death on April 12, 1945, marked a turning point, thrusting Harry S. Truman into the presidency at a critical juncture as the war in Europe drew to a close.

---

The Liberation of Concentration Camps

A harrowing segment of the episode covers the discovery of Nazi concentration camps like Buchenwald, Dachau, and Belsen by Allied forces. Holland describes the devastating conditions found:

James Holland [25:17]: "They are just crammed naked together... incredibly painful."

These revelations solidified the moral righteousness of the Allied cause, galvanizing public support and underscoring the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.

---

Division of Berlin and the Emergence of the Iron Curtain

The strategic decision to halt the Western Allies at the Elbe River, allowing the Soviet Union to capture Berlin, set the stage for the Iron Curtain:

James Holland [33:25]: "The front line ends on the River Elbe, as Eisenhower agrees, and that's the division between what becomes East Germany and what becomes West Germany."

This division not only symbolized the physical fragmentation of Germany but also the ideological split that would define Europe for decades to come.

---

VE Day: Mixed Emotions and New Challenges

VE Day, celebrated on May 8, 1945, was a day of jubilation for many Americans, marked by iconic images of victory parades and celebratory gatherings in places like Times Square. However, Holland notes the complexity of emotions surrounding the day:

James Holland [34:46]: "Reactions are really mixed... there's anxiety about Japan."

While many celebrated the defeat of Nazi Germany, the war in the Pacific loomed large, and personal losses tempered the public's exuberance. President Truman's subdued victory speech reflected the somber recognition of the immense sacrifices made.

---

Post-War Implications: The Marshall Plan and United Nations

Concluding the discussion, Holland touches upon the foundational efforts to rebuild and stabilize the post-war world. The Marshall Plan exemplified unprecedented Allied support in aiding Europe's recovery:

James Holland [24:47]: "The Marshall Plan, the only time ever in the history of the world where the victors have financially helped the vanquished."

Additionally, the establishment of the United Nations represented a commitment to fostering international cooperation and preventing future conflicts.

---

Legacy and Reflections: The Fragility of Democracy

Wrapping up, Holland and Wildman reflect on the fragility of democratic institutions and the lessons learned from the rapid descent of a culturally rich nation like Germany into tyranny. Holland underscores the importance of vigilance in preserving democratic values:

James Holland [28:47]: "The fragility of democracy... how can a nation as advanced... descend into this monstrous regime so quickly?"

The episode serves as a profound reminder of the delicate balance required to maintain peace and the enduring impact of leadership, strategy, and societal values in shaping history.

---

Conclusion: Continuing the Legacy

Don Wildman concludes the episode by honoring James Holland’s contributions to historical scholarship and encouraging listeners to explore Holland’s extensive body of work. As American History Hit continues to release insightful episodes, this discussion on VE Day and America’s role in the final victory in Europe stands as a testament to the enduring significance of understanding our past to navigate the present and future.

---

Notable Quotes:

James Holland [04:16]: "The Battle of the Bulge is the biggest loss of Americans in World War II in one battle. 19,000."

James Holland [22:36]: "He is fundamentally a good man. He wanted the world to be a better place when he left the world than when he was born into it."

James Holland [34:46]: "Reactions are really mixed... there's anxiety about Japan."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the depth and breadth of the episode, offering listeners a thorough understanding of America's journey to victory in Europe and the profound transformations that ensued.

Transcript

[James Holland]

Dear old work platform. It's not you, it's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant IT bottlenecks.

[Don Wildman]

We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets us.

[James Holland]

And to be honest, we've met someone new. They're called Monday.com and it was love at first onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine so no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Instacart/Advertisement Speaker]

Instacart is on a mission to have you not leave the couch this basketball season because between the pre game rituals and the post game interviews, it can be difficult to find time for everything else. So let Instacart take care of your game day snacks or weekly restocks and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes because we hear it's bad luck to be hungry on game day. So download the Instacart app today and enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants. 1800-Flowers.com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast that's 1-800-Flowers.com acast.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, it's Don here, jumping in to tell you that there are some descriptions of mass murder and violence that some listeners may find very unpleasant. It's January 16, 1945, in the Ardennes Forest in Belgium. It's blisteringly cold. Below freezing. A thick layer of snow covers the ground, muffling all sounds and bringing an eerie quiet. And yet, just weeks earlier, these forests were the scene of a ferocious battle. The Germans, having been on the defensive for months, had launched a surprise attack when the Allies least expected it. Panzer tanks punched through the American positions, aiming to split the Allied front line. This, the Germans hoped, would give them enough momentum to push their enemies back off the continent and turn the war around. But this was not to be. Despite initially pushing the Allies back, the Germans met tough defenses. American troops in key positions like Bastogne held out under vicious sieges. Now it's the Allies turn to attack. Now it's General Patton's tanks Advancing through war torn villages. And now the Germans retreat has begun. Disorderly, desperate, doomed, the Battle of the Bulge marks the last major German offensive on the Western Front. It's now only a matter of time before the Allies reach Germany. The end of the war is in sight.

[James Holland]

Foreign.

[Don Wildman]

This is American history. Hit. Hello out there. I'm Don Wildman. GLAD you're here. May 8, 2025 will mark 80 years since the end of the war in Europe. What is called VE Day. Victory in Europe, when the Nazis unconditionally surrendered after six brutal years of total war. We're going to be taking a look at America's experience of those final months of the war from the beginning of 1945 to the German capitulation in May, touching on the experience of troops on the ground as well as the movements and calculations of political leaders in charge and how Americans generally took it all in back home. James Holland is the esteemed British World War II historian, someone I've followed closely for years, both in print and visual media. He has a new book coming out on April 24, co authored by Al Murray, with whom James also hosts the podcast we have Ways of Making youg Talk. Greetings, James Holland. It is a great honor to have you.

[James Holland]

Oh, Dom, thank you for having me on.

[Don Wildman]

I think many Americans are left confused by the end game of World War II. Right. We surely know how it starts. Poland, the Blitzkrieg, Dunkirk, all the big events, D Day, the bombing of Dresden, the Battle of the Bulge. It all happened in a great rush of events in those last months. There are tremendous losses of life. The Battle of the Bulge is the biggest loss of Americans in World War II in one battle. 19,000. And we are now on our way to Berlin. What is Germany holding out for at this point in the war?

[James Holland]

Well, that's an extremely good question. It's really down to the control that Hitler has over the Third Reich and over the German people, which is total and complete. You know, he's an absolute autocrat and Hitler's always been very clear. I mean, the one thing you can say about him is he never speaks in gray areas at all. It's always one thing or the other. He's a complete either or kind of person, always has been. You know, either the Aryan race will rise up or will be consumed by Bolsheviks and Jews. Either we'll have the Thousand Year Reich or it'll be Armageddon. You are the German people. You have to have the will in this struggle for survival. And if our generation gets over this terrible struggle and burden now, then there will be a thousand years of glorious Aryan peace, blah, blah, blah.

[Don Wildman]

And the German people had bought into this completely.

[James Holland]

Well, they have, because in the 1930s, Hitler comes apparent. January 1933, just at the moment that the economy is starting to change. He's able to capitalise on that and suddenly they're feeling good about themselves again. He's creating jobs, he's building up the military again. And that's sort of very much part of the kind of the old Prussian imperial German kind of way of thinking. So that's a big tick. Then he takes back the Rhineland without a shot being fired. Then he takes us to Dayton land without a shot being fired. Austria is morphed into the Third Reich with the Anschluss. Then he takes the rest of Czechoslovakia. Not a shot's been fired. Everyone's going, this guy's a genius.

[Don Wildman]

Great.

[James Holland]

You know, we're. We're top dogs again in the center of Europe. You know, what's not to like? And then, of course, it all goes pear shape when he invades Poland and. And Britain and France kind of hold out on their pledges and they do go to war with Germany as a result of that. And it's the start of the Second World War. But start off with, it all seems to go quite well. You know, they've overrun Poland and there's lots of people in Germany who kind of think, yeah, well, you know, we should be there, because lots of German speakers and, you know, the Baltic coast, you know, we need to link East Prussia, which is this little sort of isolated pocket around Koenigsberg, the ancient Hanseatic port of Konigsberg, you know, so let's link that up again, you know, so they're all feeling quite good about that. And then there's a, you know, enormous victories of the Low Countries in Scandinavia and mighty France subdued and everything. And it looks like, you know, Hitler's this genius, you know, July, beginning of July 1940, you know, everyone's going, hooray. You know, swastika's lining the streets, have ticker tape in Berlin and all the rest of it seems like he's got all the answers. But he, of course, you know, he overreaches himself. And like a lot of autocrats, you know, he surrounds himself by people, yes men and sycophants and, you know, state of paranoia and all the rest of it, none of which is conducive to making good decisions. And the absolute catastrophic decision he makes is going to the Soviet Union in 1941. And he only does that because he's lost the Battle of Britain. So he's got Britain still hovering in the wings, doesn't want to have a war on two fronts. Hovering on the other side of the America of the other side of the Atlantic is the brilliant and mighty America, with all its huge potential, manpower, resources, access to the world's oceans and all the rest of it. So those are two pretty big, big enemies. So the problem is he's already kind of. The cupboard is already clear from all the gains that he's got in the Blitzkrieg stage. You know, he's nicked all the cars from France and trucks and factories and oil and food reserves and all the rest of it, and the cupboards bare again. I mean, they've been like kids in a sweet shop. So he thinks, well, what do we do? And he says, well, the only way we're going to get all the supplies we need is to go into Soviet Union. You know, he's originally planning that for kind of 43, 44, but he goes and said in June 1941, it's a terrible plan. You know, they kid themselves that they're doing quite well because the Red army is so unspeakably awful and terrible. And so they do get very close to Berlin by the end of the year. But consider this, take an arbitrary date, like let's say 16 June 1941. At that point, Nazi Germany has got one enemy in the world, Great Britain, albeit Great Britain plus dominions and empire.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And then Fast forward, it's six months to say the 16th of December 1941. Suddenly Nazi Germany has got three enemies. It's got the USSR, it's got the United States of America and it's got Britain plus dominions and Empire. And I would argue that you're never going to win from that point.

[Don Wildman]

So much of this is about control of information. The German people just didn't know what was going on.

[James Holland]

Yeah. And they're brilliant at this. So it's really, really interesting because they're actually nothing like as automotive as most people think they are. Everyone talks about the Nazi war machine of the Blitzkrieg years. Actually, they weren't very automotive at all and they're quite down the pecking order. I mean, it will be no surprise to anyone listening in the US that America is the most automotive society in the world. In 1939, there three people for every motorized vehicle in the United States. In 1939, that figure is eight in France. So France is comfortably the most automotive. It's 14 in the UK, it is 47 in Germany.

[Don Wildman]

Wow.

[James Holland]

And so that's a problem, because what that means is you haven't got that many people who know how to drive. You haven't got many, you know, gas stations. You haven't got many factories churning out this stuff. So if you suddenly want to kind of escalate that into kind of war, you've got a problem, because you can't mass produce because you don't have the capacity to do so. But where they have the. They have the densest radio network of any nation on the planet by 1939, and they've been really, really cunning. So in the early 1930s, for example, they create the Deutsche Fanger, which is a German radio, and then they create the Deutsche Kleinenfanger, which is the German little radio. And this is about as revolutionary when it comes in in 1935, as the arrival of the ipod. Up until that point, radios are aspirational and they kind of come with a sort of walnut veneer. And, you know, you only get them if you're middle class. But what Germany realizes, if they control the whole media, then they can start to really warp people's minds. It's the same as sort of taking over Twitter or something.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, exactly.

[James Holland]

So, you know, so what you do is you have this radio which is 9 inches by 4 inches by 4 inches, made of baker light, super cheap. And even if those who can't afford it, you put them in stairwells and, you know, apartment blocks and in public squares and all rest of it, and you're just churning out the same old nonsense all the time. So it is partly Hitlerian speeches with spittle and all the rest of it, but it's also kind of light comedy moments, right? And it's sort of, you know, Wagner as well, and other speeches and other talk programs and discussion programs. But the subliminal message is the same. We're cool, we're German, we're the best in the world militarily. Jews are awful. Bolsheviks, Communists are awful. Slavs are awful. It is our destiny to take over the world. We need to do it. We're top dogs. And it just. People start. If you repeat stuff enough, people believe it. So the reason they're still going is because Hitler has this grip and because they've all bought into it to start off with. Then suddenly there's this halfway point, which is early 1943 in the surrender of Stalingrad, when everyone suddenly thinks, ah, okay, we're not going to win here. So then it's everyone's maximum effort. And it's. If you don't do the maximum effort, you're going to have the Russian hordes coming here and they're going to rape and pillage and, you know, savage you, and it's going to be Armageddon, which I warned you about. So what's the alternative? You know, so that's why they're keeping on fighting.

[Don Wildman]

Basically fear mentality. The Yalta conference takes place in February 45th. How does this impact the war? Is basically the three main powers figuring out how this is all going to divvy up, right?

[James Holland]

Yeah, kind of. I kind of wonder whether too much emphasis has been put on Yalta. In a way, a more significant one is Tehran, which happens at the end of 1943. That's the first time that kind of the big three, Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill meet together, and that's in Iran. Stalin has agreed with the Western allies, Roosevelt and Churchill, that the only unconditional surrender will do. So that's already worked out. What's sort of been worked out at Yalta is that there is clearly going to be effectively an iron curtain over Europe when the war is over, and one which is in the sphere of communism and the Soviet bloc and one which isn't. And Roosevelt knows this, and Churchill knows this, and they're trying to get as many concessions as possible. And what Stalin agrees to is, yes, there will be free and fair elections in these countries like Czechoslovakia and Poland once the war is over. But Churchill knows perfectly well that that's never gonna happen. Roosevelt knows that's probably not gonna happen, but they've gotta get him to say it.

[Don Wildman]

Right?

[James Holland]

And he does say it. But they all know by this point that by the time the war is over in Europe, there's still going to be the war against Imperial Japan that is hovering over every decision the Western allies make in 1945. And no one is expecting to be using atomic bombs on Japan at this stage.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

So what they are expecting is to have to invade Japan. Because what the lessons of the war in Japan have showed them is that the closer they get to Japan, the harder the Japanese fight. And that is why, out of 18,000 Japanese on Iwo Jima, I think it's 250 are taken prisoner. Out of 12,000 on Peleliu, 360 are taken prisoner. So in other words, Japanese fight to the death. And that means a lot of casualties. That means when you get into Japan itself, we're looking at several million casualties. And that is a terrible burden for the Western allies, particularly the United States, which is taking over the lead in terms of. Well, it's always been at the forefront in terms of, of operations in the Pacific rather than Southeast Asia. They just want to get Germany done and dusted and there is going to be no stomach for fighting Stalin. So what the line is at the end is going to be the line and they can say we want to have free fairing elections and Stalin can go, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But they all know that's not going to happen. The other thing to point out is by this stage, Roosevelt is a very, very sick man.

[Don Wildman]

Exactly.

[James Holland]

I find it absolutely astonishing that the Americans agree to hold it in Yalta. Just, they should have pushed back on that, said, no, you know, we'll meet in Malta or we'll meet in some. Or we'll meet in America.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

Should have gone. It should have gone to Washington.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. The guy was at the edge of death.

[James Holland]

He's on the edge of death. So his arteries are furring up.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And so that is what's weakening him. So you, he, I mean, he's 63 when he dies. Have you seen pictures of him? It's like an eight year old. You know, he, he is absolutely spent this, this titanic figure with his extraordinary visions for peace which he's been working on since the 1930s. You know, the good neighbor policy, four freedoms of January 1941, the Atlantic charter of August 41, Bretton woods, the creation of the IMF, an international monetary Fund, the World Bank. This idea that he is absolutely wedded to, that low tariffs, free trade, prosperous neighbors means a prosperous nation for America in which America can dominate and be the number one and richest nation in the world through others prosperity. And also the historical truth that prosperity breeds peace, financial disharmony breeds war.

[Don Wildman]

Right. Everything he'd fought for, everything he envisioned. You see the depression on his face that he realizes quite possibly is not going to happen.

[James Holland]

Well, it's going to happen in the free world, but it's not going to happen behind the Iron Curtain. You know, the balance of power has changed. Stalin was a rabbit in headlights. When the Germans invade Soviet Union in June 1941. He recovers his metal in pretty quick order. And thanks to predominantly US Lend Lease, he's turned the corner. I mean, Russian listeners won't like me for saying this, but the encirclement of the German sick family at Stalingrad in Operation Uranus is thanks to the 78,000 US trucks and lorries and other vehicles that enabled him to do that, because otherwise they Wouldn't have been able to do it.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. Right.

[James Holland]

You know, so Roosevelt and Britain, you know, American Britain have done the right thing in helping their enemy's enemy is our friend kind of principle. But as the war, the conclusion of the war is getting nearer. First of all, America particularly has got other problems on its hand, that is dealing with Imperial Japan. The second thing is the new world order they've got to sort out.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

This is a time for compromise, because you're not going to have a continuation of the European war against the Soviet Union.

[Don Wildman]

Do they talk about the United nations at that point?

[James Holland]

Yeah, yeah. So the United nations is all. It's all the chat. Yeah, but. But I mean, the Soviet Union invited to Bretton woods, for example, which is this economic conference where they agree on the IMF and the World bank and they decline to come.

[Don Wildman]

Of course.

[James Holland]

Of course they do.

[Don Wildman]

You know, war crimes in the Nuremberg Trials are also agreed upon. They decided to prosecute and go for it.

[James Holland]

Yep.

[Don Wildman]

That's pretty radical thing to do, isn't it? That was unprecedented or not.

[James Holland]

Yes. You know, the term sort of crimes against humanity and genocide and stuff like that. You know, these are new terms that are emerging at that period.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. By March and April, the Allies are over the Rhine, right?

[James Holland]

Yes. So the first crossing is the beginning of March, where they get across the bridge at Remigon, but actually they don't. You know, this is, this, is this froze Eisenhower, because Eisenhower wants everyone to pull up to the Rhine, then pause, gather their strength, get over. What he doesn't want is any reverses. So he doesn't want a kind of a pocket over the other side of the Rhine which can then be reduced and into which you have to then pour other resources to make sure it doesn't. He wants to maintain that balance. And actually, Eisenhower, by the beginning of March is really. Well, from the moment of the Battle of the Bulge, he really takes a grip and becomes the overall commander. He is the guy who is dictating the overall strategy on the Western Front by this point. And he's doing it very directly and he wants to be methodical. And from his point of view, because of the huge burden of going into Japan, he wants to preserve as much manpower as possible. So Britain and America have always had this principle of steal not our flesh as much as you possibly can. So you're limiting the number of casualties and number of people in the coal face as you. Absolutely. Keeping that to the bare minimum by the use of mechanization, industrialization, new innovation and technology and all the rest of it to do a lot of the hard yards for you. So they want to be methodical. They don't want to kind of waste lies unnecessarily. And so little pockets like getting over the bridge at Remigun and stuff is actually kind of slightly unsettling. The apple cart. The main effort is going to be in the north in the sphere of 21st Army Group, to which the US 9th army under Bill Simpson, who's brilliant, by the way, is attached. And this is Operation Plunder. And then there's gonna be an airborne drop with the 17th.

[Don Wildman]

Where's Patton at this point?

[James Holland]

So Patton is in 3rd army, so he is getting ready to cross as well. And he's been preparing this since the previous October. So the way he tells the story is that his guys just bounce around with no fuss while Monty had this kind of, you know, big preamble and amassed all this. I mean, you know, that is just total nonsense because the genius of Patton, yes, he was a great tactical commander. I, you know, he was a fighting spearhead, kind of, you know, gung ho kind of guy. But I think his real genius was in his operational skill. And what I mean by that is how you organize your troops, how you plan, how you prepare. He had bridging teams and bridging experts and engineers all lined up to cross the Rhine since the previous October.

[Don Wildman]

Sure. Well, you trained in tank work with Eisenhower, right?

[James Holland]

Exactly. So he's further to the south. And they get across kind of the day before Operation Plunder. So they get across on the 22nd. So it's the third week of March, basically, and they're all across and then following that. So you have Remagen on. I think it's, if I remember rightly, it's the 7th of March. Then you've got Operation Plunder, 23rd of March, you've got Patton getting across on the 22nd of March. Then further to the south, you've got 6th Army Group, which is US 7th Army. And the French 1st army, they're getting across again in the kind of last week of March as well. And it's important not to forget the 6th army group, because 7th Army, US 7th army in the French 1st army, they do really, really well. But they're of kind. But, you know, because everyone's obsessed with patent, they kind of tend to get cut out of the story and the narrative.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

[James Holland]

Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it. And Then switching to intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Fin, the world's leading AI customer service agent is is now available on every help desk. Fin can instantly resolve up to 80% of your tickets, which makes your customers happier and gets you off the customer service rep hiring treadmill. Fin by Intercon, the leading customer service AI agent now available on every help desk. The new McCrispy strip is here. Dip approved by Ketchup Tangy barbecue, Honey mustard, honey mustard, Sprite, McFlurry, Big Mac sauce, double dipped in buffalo and ranch, more ranch and creamy chili. McCrispy strip dip now at McDonald's.

[Instacart/Advertisement Speaker]

BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

[James Holland]

Picture this.

[Don Wildman]

You're halfway through a DIY car fix.

[James Holland]

Tools scattered everywhere, and boom.

[Don Wildman]

You realize you're missing a part. It's okay because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need.

[James Holland]

And it's guaranteed to fit.

[Don Wildman]

Which means no more crossing your fingers.

[James Holland]

And hoping you ordered the right thing.

[Don Wildman]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love.

[James Holland]

Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay.

[Don Wildman]

Things people love. James One of the big events, of course, is the death of FDR. 12th of April, 1945, he dies of a stroke, essentially a cerebral hemorrhage. How is that news received on the front lines? How is this processed in military strategy? Is there a reaction like that?

[James Holland]

Yeah, I think everyone is really, really shocked because he has been this great leader. He's arguably the greatest president America's ever had. He's certainly in the top handful. And he's a titan. I mean, he's a titanic figure. He's the only president to have served four terms, or almost four terms.

[Don Wildman]

How hands on was he with military strategy?

[James Holland]

Very, very hands on. He has this superb personal military advisor called Admiral Leahy. And yeah, he works very, very closely with that. You know, he's a military man anyway. You know, he's a Navy man. He gets it. He understands it. He has this terrific geopolitical understanding and he's got this great vision for world peace that's gonna follow afterwards, which I think is incredibly admirable. And he was Machiavellian and underhand at times and completely ruthless. But he was a fundamentally a good man. He wanted the world to be a better place when he left the world than when he was born into it. And I think you can argue that he pulled that off. Truman is really, really interesting. The reason he gets Truman is because Roosevelt knows that he needs to win the November 1944 election. He needs to continue this job. And some of the other potential candidates. Henry Wallace, who's the existing vice president, he's sort of bit too left. Jimmy Burns has got kind of issues with, you know, he's not so popular in the deep south and so on. So there was issues. So the reason he goes with Truman is Truman is just completely neutral. Everyone likes Truman, but he's a domestic politician from Missouri. Independence, Missouri. Your classic kind of folksy, kind of homegrown guy who kind of offends nobody. But does that put him in a really good position to be the leader of the kind of largest, richest nation in the world by 1944 and to lead the free world into the post war era? And that there's a lot of question marks about that. And a lot of people don't think he's gonna do it. But I would argue that he does it with bells on. I think he's unbelievable.

[Don Wildman]

As of his death, where are the American troops located?

[James Holland]

They're on the Elbe. I mean, the Elbe is reached on the 11th of April.

[Don Wildman]

So they've done the job.

[James Holland]

The job's done. But the atomic bomb, I mean, too bad. Doesn't know about the Manhattan Project, doesn't know about the atomic bomb. When he comes president, you've got. He doesn't know about ongoing the brewing problems of the Soviet Union. All these. He has to kind of shoulder and burden. And he doesn't want to be president. He didn't want to be vice president. He does it out of a sense of moral duty, of Christian, moral, patriotic duty.

[Don Wildman]

But I don't think people understand how incredibly symbolic FDR's death is at that time. Because the mission has been accomplished. He has carried it to that point.

[James Holland]

Literally the day after reaching the Elbe. Great man. But I would argue that I think Truman is a surprise in how good he was and he was, you know, there are some flaws in his presidency, don't get me wrong. But you know, out of that comes a continuation of the ethos of Roosevelt. You know, out of that comes a Marshall Plan. The Marshall Plan, the only time ever in the history of world where the victors have financially helped the vanquished.

[Don Wildman]

April 11, 1945. The Buchenhwang concentration camp is discovered by allied troops.

[James Holland]

Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

21,000 prisoners are found there. 30,000 prisoners are located at Dachau. April 29th. It is hard to conceive how this news goes down for Americans and Europeans. Salt in the wound, or was there more of an understanding of this all the way along? And speculation.

[James Holland]

They know about the death camps much earlier in the war, but the average soldier doesn't. You know, this is not sort of stuff that you bandy about. It's really interesting because Churchill makes a speech in the summer of 1940.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

Where he talks about, you know, if we prevail, we'll return to the Sunday uplands, but if we fail, you know, we will descend into a new dark age made more sinister by the perversions of modern science. You know, he doesn't know about Zyklon B at that point, but this is what we're talking about, and it's a real shot. Because, you know, one has to remember that before the arrival of the Nazis, before the First World War, I mean, Germany's this place of unbelievably rich culture, of music, of science, of literature, of art, of engineering, of, you know, a proud nation of a brilliant military heritage and, you know, super creative, yet just like that.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, 12 years, right? Less than 12 years, they've descended into the Holocaust. And it's horrible. It's so grotesque. The contempt for human life is so important. The cruelty, you can't imagine it. And, you know, even things like Zyklon B, that is to be more humane for the executioners, not for the executed. You know, you're all crammed naked together. That's humiliating. Different age groups. In a. In a concrete room, you're being gassed. It's not a particularly quick death.

[Don Wildman]

Right. It's a horrific thing.

[James Holland]

It's horrific. It's incredibly painful. All your capillaries and your lungs burst. You're gasping for air. Your whole chest is heaving in pain. And some people can take up to 20 minutes, and, you know, there's no wear out. And you're watching other people dying, and you know that's your fate. It's unspeakably cruel. And then the Allied troops are getting into Buchenwald and Belsen and Dachau, and they're seeing these emaciated people, and they're seeing, you know, defecation all over the place and disease and rife with typhus. And typhoid and the whole thing is just unspeakable. And of course, people are shocked. You know, it's one thing going to war, and you have kind of sort of basic notions of kind of Geneva Convention and all that kind of stuff. Then you see that right off the charts. I mean, how can you contemplate that? How can you process that? Of course, they're absolutely devastated. They're completely shocked. And of course, it's why they've been doing it. If ever you want to kind of raison d' etre for going to war, it's that. And for all the kind of moral ambiguity of the war, the bombing of cities and towns, mostly by Allied guns or by Allied bombs. When you get to Buchenwald and you see this pitiful example of human deprivation and misery, then you realize what it is you've been fighting that you are on this. On the moral side of righteousness.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, it's mild to say so, but it is a symbol of what you say before. I mean, many Americans don't realize Germany was our model, you know, in the late 19th century into the 20th even. It was the model for high culture. It was the model for innovation and technology and. And goodness. Really, we wanted to be like the Germans in so many ways. Of course, World War I's right there in the middle, but it's really unexpected that this could possibly happen within that culture. It's so bizarre. Really.

[James Holland]

It's so bizarre. And. And I think it's a really, you know, history never repeats itself. Of course it doesn't, because this is now, and that was then.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

You know, it's a different time frame always, but patterns of human behavior do. And I think one of the things that's so fascinating about it and so alarming is the fragility of democracy.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

You know, how can a nation as advanced and sophisticated and a kind of foundation of high culture like Germany descend into this exactly. Monstrous, despicable regime so quickly?

[Don Wildman]

Modern themes as well, and media has a lot to do with it. Yes, it's amazing. Let's talk, though, more in detail about the division of Berlin. How were those decisions made? Basically? What moment did that happen? Was it Yalta?

[James Holland]

Yes, it was. And, you know, by then, it's a foregone conclusion. It's only a matter of time. So, yes, it was worked out that was going to be.

[Don Wildman]

So when we run into roll into town, this is how it's going to be. That was our decision. Yeah.

[James Holland]

So, of course, you know, it's then been huge Great resentment by the Soviet Union because they've got into Berlin and they didn't really want then to kind of allow Americans and British and French.

[Don Wildman]

Right, They've all been shot and killed. There's massive amounts of death going in there. The Americans are sitting by watching.

[James Holland]

Yes, but my point is, again, is, is that one has to contextualize those huge casualties that the Red army suffers. The Red army approach is to have this huge battering ram. You swing it back and then you just go, wham, straight into the enemy. Lots of violence, everyone dies. There's lots of carnage. There's lots of carnage to yourself. Then you have to kind of pause because your units are so depleted for three months, and then you kind of pull this battering ram back again and you swing it again and same and repeat. But the problem with this process is that it's incredibly costly in terms of material, but particularly manpower. And it doesn't have to be that way. They've got all the key in the world. They've got all the artillery. There's a much better plan than the one they're doing, which is much less manpower, heavy, and they don't do it. So, yes, they do have a huge amount of casualties going into Berlin. But I would argue that with a better plan, better trained men and people that weren't quite so expendable, they could have done it for a heck of a lot less manpower and a heck of a lot less of a cost.

[Don Wildman]

The chess game is about Russia, of course, in terms of the German landmass, how true is it that we held back in order to let them come forward? I mean, where? How? Yeah.

[James Holland]

So once they get across the Rhine, Eisenhower makes a decision that he's not gonna attack, attack Berlin, he's going to get to the Elba and then he's going to stop. So it's kind of interesting because by the beginning of February, the Western allies are still 250 miles from. From Berlin, and the Red army is only 50 miles by the 11th of April, which is when Bill Simpson's 9th army reached the River Elba. They're both about 50 miles away because the Russians haven't moved since beginning of February.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

Whereas obviously the Allies have. So, you know, it's absolutely within the grasp of Eisenhower and the Western Allies to go into Berlin. And they would have got there first, but it's absolutely no question about it because the Germans would have not fought anything like, as hard against the Allies. The Allies would have fought much more efficiently and they would have taken Berlin because No one wanted to be taken by the Russians because you reap what you sow. And back in 1941 and into 1942, they treated the Soviet Union so brutally that what do you expect when it comes back?

[Don Wildman]

So what's the rationale, Eisenhower's rationale, about.

[James Holland]

Not trying to conserve troops, trying to save lives?

[Don Wildman]

Because the fighting's really still very fierce, right?

[James Holland]

It is, but it doesn't need to be. That's my point.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[James Holland]

So the only reason the Soviet, the Red army have such casualties in the final battle is because it's a really badly planned battle and because the commanders have absolutely no regard for the lives of their men. I mean, Red army loses something like 900,000 casualties, but between 16th of April and 2nd of May, I mean, that's like nearly a million in a fortnight.

[Don Wildman]

Eisenhower's leaving it to the Russians to.

[James Holland]

Saying, yep, I'm not going to go any further. And the reason is because he doesn't want any further loss of life amongst the Western forces. And the reason he doesn't want that is A, because he wants to conserve them, because it's all over. But secondly, it's because he thinks they're going to all have to go to the Pacific.

[Don Wildman]

Wow, interesting.

[James Holland]

And, you know, you're going to need every single man.

[Don Wildman]

It's not a politically strategic thing he's doing in terms of the division of Berlin and all of of that.

[James Holland]

It's not about Europe as far as they're concerned. They've crushed Nazi Germany. That was their kind of number one priority, as laid out in the Arcadia Conference in December 1941. And it's job done. You know, Germany is defeated. Hitler's goes on 30 April, but it's all over whether the Western Allies end up with an extra 50 miles of Germany or that 50 miles goes into the hands of Soviet Union. So what? It's not his concern. His concern is winning the war as quickly as possible for the minimum amount of loss of life.

[Don Wildman]

The counterfactual is interesting about whether Berlin was not divided up. Would we have the Iron Curtain? Would we have that situation in terms of the division of Europe?

[James Holland]

Well, I think so, yes, because the front line ends on the River Elbe, as Eisenhower agrees, and that's the division between what becomes East Germany and what becomes West Germany. The finishing line isn't baked in by Yalta. It is baked in that there's going to be a division of Berlin. But it hasn't been agreed who is going to capture Berlin. And you know, it's still odds on that it's going to be the Western Allies at this point. But then Eisenhower lets Stalin know that he's not going to contest Berlin, that he is going to stop at the river Elba, which is to say is kind of 50 miles to the kind of west of, of Berlin. And that then becomes the kind of Iron Curtain. Then there's a whole lot of horse trading that's been going on the previous autumn about, you know, Italy and Greece and the Balkans and all the rest of it and which is going to, you know. So Churchill goes to Stalin and Moscow and says, okay, let's let' thrash this out. And it's agreed that Greece will remain in the orbit of the west, but the Balkans won't.

[Don Wildman]

Interesting.

[James Holland]

You know, that decision is all made then.

[Don Wildman]

VE Day, 8th of May 1945. Euphoria in the streets of America. I mean, we see those pictures, the sailors kissing the nurses, packs of people in that in Times Square. Was that the general reaction throughout the world? Were we free to be so euphoric or.

[James Holland]

Well, actually, Don, it's a little bit mixed because actually the surrender is signed in the early hours of the 7th of May. Stalin's really annoyed about this because the Germans surrendered to the west. They surrender to Eisenhower's headquarters and they go, no, no, no, no, it can't be properly surrendered until we have our own surrender in Berlin. And that's going to happen at one minute past midnight on the 9th of May. But then the Germans broadcast about the surrender and the cat's out of the bag and everyone starts nowhere and everyone starts partying on the 7th of May. So Churchill and Truman agree that Victory in Europe Day will be celebrated on the 8th of May. But actually, ironically, it's the one day there isn't a surrender. And reactions are really mixed, you know, for the Western Allies. You know, there's euphoria and street parties and ticker taking in Times Square and all the rest of it. There's a kind of mild celebration, a lot of the troops in Europe, but. And then there's a kind of sort of, well, what the, what was the point in the first place? And then if we've got to this, then there is the anxiety about, about Japan. Yeah, plenty of people still fighting the Pacific. I mean, you know, there's people still fighting on Okinawa. You know, there's no victory day for them. They're still fighting the, fighting the Japanese and, and ditto, you know, British troops in Burma and and so on. So it's a completely mixed reaction. And for those people who've. I remember talking to a lady who lived in my village who'd lost her fiance, who had been shot down in his bomber, and she just had. She spent the whole of VE day just in tears.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[James Holland]

Because that was that. And it's very interesting when you look at Truman's victory speech that he gives on the morning of the 8th of May. It's coincidentally his 61st birthday that day. It's pretty muted.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, I can read it.

[James Holland]

I got a job still to be done.

[Don Wildman]

Our rejoicing is sobered and subdued by a supreme consciousness of the terrible price we have paid to the world to rid the world of Hitler and his evil band. He dedicates the day to FDR and orders all the flags flown at half mast. Yeah, that's a definitely a mixed reaction because the Americans have always had, of course, a big problem with spending lives to save others, you know, to go abroad.

[James Holland]

And quite rightly so.

[Don Wildman]

And this is a major moment of considering the price that we've paid for this.

[James Holland]

It really, really is. And the other thing is he knows he's a new president. He hasn't been in office quite a month by that point, and he knows there's all sorts of problems brewing with the Soviet Union. You know, there is a complete clash of worldview.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[James Holland]

And there is a huge burden of the Japan.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. A can of worms has been opened up. James Holland, I have been a fan for so long, it is an honor to meet you and sit with you in person. I invite all listeners to look up this man's books. There's a long list of them. And to tune into the podcast, which he does with his partner, Al Murray. We have ways of making you talk. I'm going to be a big listener myself. Thank you so much.

[James Holland]

Oh, Tom, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

[Don Wildman]

Thanks for listening to American history hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes, dropping Mondays and Thursdays from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, please share with a friend. American history hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Thanks so much.

[Instacart/Advertisement Speaker]

Moms deserve our very best, especially on Mother's Day. There's only one place I trust to deliver high quality mom Approved rose bouquets. 1-800-flowerscom this year, 1-800-flowers wants to make sure all the mothers in your life get the best with double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. To claim the double roses offer, go to 1800flowers.com acast that's 1-800-flowers.com acast the official florist of Mother's Day.

[Don Wildman]

If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.