American History Hit – "How Did Fossils Change America?"

Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Carolyn Winter, William Robertson Coe Professor of History and American Studies, Stanford University
Release date: December 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores how the discovery and interpretation of fossils in 19th-century America fundamentally altered not only scientific understanding of the Earth's age but also shaped national identity, fueled economic expansion, and contributed both to arguments for Manifest Destiny and to the defense of slavery. Don Wildman sits down with historian Carolyn Winter, author of How the New World Became the Deep Time Revolution in America, to discuss the profound consequences of embracing "deep time" and its interaction with religion, American exceptionalism, and social debates.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Concept of "Deep Time" (04:05 – 04:41)

• Definition: Deep time is the idea, emerging in the 19th century, that the Earth is not just several thousand years old as the Bible suggests, but millions or even billions of years old.
  • Carolyn Winter (04:11):
    “Deep time is the idea that emerges in the 19th century that the Earth is not in fact 6,000 years old, as a literal reading of Genesis and the rest of the Bible will tell you, but in fact millions if not billions of years old.”
• Fossils alone—often misinterpreted previously as not particularly ancient—didn’t shake conventional wisdom until paired with scientific inquiry and geological observation.

2. Industrial Transformation and the Rise of Deep Time (05:13 – 08:02)

• The Industrial Revolution and the deepening search for fossil fuels forced Americans and Europeans to reconsider the Earth’s history as they physically dug into geological layers.
• Uniformitarianism emerged: the notion that present-day geological processes (like erosion or sedimentation) have always operated at similar rates, displacing biblical catastrophic events as the main explanation for geologic features.
  • Carolyn Winter (05:37):
    “They begin to hit upon this concept that today is called uniformitarianism, which is a fancy way of saying that the processes that we observe around us today are also occurring probably in the past. And that’s crucial for the idea of deep time.”

3. The Biblical Chronology and its Challenge (08:19 – 10:56)

• pre-19th century, much of the Western world adhered to a biblical timetable for Earth’s age, calculated by figures such as Archbishop James Usher (4004 BC).
• The sudden confrontation with vast geological evidence unearthed this belief, as people realized only miracles or catastrophes could explain such rapid change—an idea falling out of favor in an increasingly rational, scientific culture.
  • Carolyn Winter (08:19):
    “It’s Europeans saying, well you know, we want the Bible to be not just the unique history of the Hebrew people, we want the Bible to be the history of the whole world. So we’re going to run the numbers on the Bible... and 4004 BC in fact it’s October 23rd, 4004 BC on a Saturday night is determined by James Usher, an Irish archbishop, to be the age of the Earth.”

4. Deep Time and National Identity—Manifest Destiny (10:56 – 13:37)

• As American nationalism sought legitimacy, the narrative shifted: though politically young, the country could claim geological antiquity. The idea that America's land was “older than Europe” became a source of pride and spiritual resonance.
  • Carolyn Winter (11:26):
    “We are also simultaneously the oldest world of all when you start thinking in terms of the age of the rocks that lie beneath us.”
• The rise of the National Parks (Yellowstone, Yosemite) paralleled this ideology—“cathedrals of nature” as sacred American spaces older than anything in Europe.
  • Carolyn Winter (13:37):
    “We have cathedrals of nature. We have glacial flanks in Yosemite Valley that are millions of years old... Only a power as majestic and overwhelming as the Christian God could have endowed the United States with this level of super grandeur. So take that old world, you know. We’re the new world, but we’re even older than you are.”

5. Deep Time, Race, and the Politics of Land (14:44 – 18:48)

• The discovery of fossils in plains and southern states was used to bolster arguments claiming white American rights to land (superseding claims of Native Americans) and justifying slavery.
  • Carolyn Winter (15:04):
    “They begin to craft a new argument and say, okay, the native peoples of the Americas may have been the first peoples in the Americas, but... many layers underneath, we’re finding the first animals... so they are ours and the land is ours. And the native peoples really have no claim. And they also don’t understand deep time so we can safely take this land from them.”
• In the South, rich Cretaceous soil was interpreted as evidence that God prepared land specifically for cotton cultivation by enslaved people.
  • Carolyn Winter (16:35):
    “God would not have created this soil if he did not want us to use black people to work that soil. So that’s where we get the term black belt for the sort of layers of the Lower South. First it refers to the black soil that is exceptionally rich. And then eventually it begins to refer to the black people who work the land there.”

6. Deep Time vs. Evangelical Religion (20:54 – 23:26)

• The Second Great Awakening fostered evangelical resistance to deep time, ushering in Young Earth Creationism in defense of literal biblical chronology.
  • Carolyn Winter (21:31):
    “There are a growing number of evangelical Protestants who begin to push back against what they see as the sidelining of the Genesis story of creation.”
• Creationists devised new Bibles (e.g., the Scofield Bible) reaffirming a 4004 BC creation, and eventually established institutions like the Creation Museum, blending dinosaurs with the biblical flood.
  • Carolyn Winter (21:31):
    “Today you can visit the Creation Museum outside of Cincinnati, Ohio... run by a group called Answers in Genesis. And they deny the antiquity of the earth, they deny the Deep Time revolution. So they’ve built an ark recently where there are dinosaurs aboard.”

7. Deep Time and American Progress (23:26 – 24:57)

• The intertwining of science, capitalism, and religious gratitude: fossil fuels (“fossil forests”) and natural resources were seen as God's ancient gifts made manifest for American use.
  • Carolyn Winter (23:49):
    “The Deep Time revolution carries all that with it. That as you’re absorbing Deep Time, you’re absorbing what... at the time were believed to be the God given gifts of the Industrial Revolution. Trains, fossil fuels, which actually is a term coined in the 1820s along with natural resources.”

8. The Overshadowed Figure: Louis Agassiz (24:57 – 28:09)

• Swiss-American naturalist Louis Agassiz advocated for deep time but opposed Darwinian evolution, proposing instead that God created and periodically re-created life—culminating with the North American landscape’s distinct features.
  • Carolyn Winter (25:08):
    “Louis Agassiz is the greatest scientist you have never heard of… He believes in deep time. But he does not believe in Charles Darwin’s idea that deep time is the container for species evolution... what you’re seeing in the fossil record over deep time is the constant workings of the benevolent creator God.”
• Agassiz introduced the concept of the Ice Age, suggesting even glacial processes were God’s preparation for America’s agriculture.

9. Deep Time and American Exceptionalism (28:09 – 29:24)

• Deep time became central to American exceptionalism, interpreted as a sign of divine favor and purpose; America, though politically new, had the oldest, most specially designed land on the planet.
  • Carolyn Winter (28:18):
    “Deep time is at the heart of American exceptionalism because what it is saying to Americans is that... even though the United States is still so new, Americans are at pains to constantly say yes, yes... but that is just a sign of God’s been special benediction, special mission for the United States.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On changing worldviews:
  Don Wildman (05:13): “As if human beings are not coping with enough in the 19th century... Suddenly, the one accepted truth... is gone, or at least disappearing.”
• On cognitive dissonance:
  Carolyn Winter (18:50): “It is fascinating how we can carry multiple and in fact contradictory stories in our heads at the same time.”
• On landscape and theology:
  Carolyn Winter (13:37): “We have cathedrals of nature... only a power as majestic and overwhelming as the Christian God could have endowed the United States with this level of super grandeur.”

Key Timestamps

• [04:05] What is “deep time”?
• [05:37] The economic and intellectual roots of deep time in the Industrial Revolution
• [10:56] Deep time and American national identity, rise of Manifest Destiny
• [14:44] Fossils, land claims, and race: how geological discovery was used to justify dispossession and slavery
• [20:54] Religious reaction: Young Earth Creationism and the blending of science and faith
• [24:57] Louis Agassiz, the deep time advocate who rejected Darwin and shaped American understanding
• [28:18] Deep time at the heart of American exceptionalism

Conclusion

Don Wildman and Carolyn Winter unpack the sweep of the “Deep Time Revolution” in America, showing how scientific discovery, economic imperatives, and evolving religious beliefs collided to shape America’s view of its land, its destiny, and even its moral justifications. The episode illuminates how a single geological idea reshaped a nation’s soul—complete with contradictions, scientific breakthroughs, and enduring debates.

Recommended for:
Anyone interested in the intersection of science, religion, nationalism, and the stories Americans tell about their land and history.