American History Hit: Presidents' Private Lives
Episode Release Date: November 7, 2024
Host: Eleanor Herman
Guest: Dr. Kate Lister

Introduction

In the episode titled "Presidents' Private Lives," Eleanor Herman engages in a candid and insightful conversation with Dr. Kate Lister, a renowned historian and author of "Sex with Presidents: The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House." The discussion delves into the intimate and often controversial aspects of U.S. presidents' personal lives, exploring how power dynamics intersect with sexuality and the broader implications for their administrations and legacies.

The Interplay of Power and Sexuality

Eleanor Herman opens the dialogue by framing the episode around the tumultuous political climate of the time, drawing parallels with historical events to underscore the enduring nature of political and personal scandals.

Dr. Kate Lister introduces the concept of Hubris Syndrome, a psychological disorder recognized by the psychiatric community in 2009, characterized by recklessness, narcissism, and a belief in one's invincibility—traits often exacerbated by the immense power held by presidents. She explains:

"Their minds are not working. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure, but they do risk everything."
— Dr. Kate Lister [07:26]

This sets the foundation for understanding why presidents may engage in risky sexual behavior despite potential scandals that could jeopardize their positions.

Historical Case Studies

George Washington

Dr. Lister begins with George Washington, debunking the myth of his cherry tree incident and addressing rumors of his romantic entanglements. She clarifies that Washington's supposed affair with Sally Fairfax was more of a platonic crush than a scandalous affair, ultimately leading to his marriage with Martha Custis without any substantial evidence of infidelity.

"I don't think there's a one, really. I think he was probably very boring sexually."
— Dr. Kate Lister [09:25]

Thomas Jefferson

The conversation shifts to Thomas Jefferson, where Dr. Lister does not shy away from condemning his actions. Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemings, an enslaved woman, is highlighted as a profound abuse of power and personal ethics:

"Thomas Jefferson was the first Virgil."
— Dr. Kate Lister [14:16]

Lister emphasizes the complexity of Jefferson's legacy, acknowledging his political achievements while condemning his personal misconduct and the systemic exploitation inherent in his actions.

John F. Kennedy

John F. Kennedy (JFK) is identified as the most egregious example of presidential sexual misconduct in Lister's research. The duo discusses JFK's numerous affairs, including those that posed national security risks by potentially involving spies:

"Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this."
— Eleanor Herman [20:39]

Dr. Lister recounts how JFK's indiscretions were largely kept under wraps until the shift in journalistic integrity brought about by events like Watergate:

"He did not seem to be capable of understanding how much he was harming his wife."
— Dr. Kate Lister [23:47]

The Impact of Journalism on Presidential Scandals

Lister explains the historical reluctance of the press to report on presidential scandals, attributing it to agreements within journalistic circles to avoid sensationalism. However, pivotal events such as the Vietnam War and Watergate dismantled this code, leading to increased scrutiny and disclosure of presidents' private lives.

"After Watergate, journalists felt that presidents were not to be protected and respected, but to be investigated."
— Dr. Kate Lister [22:00]

This shift dramatically changed the landscape of political journalism, making it more transparent and less deferential to presidential privacy.

Gender Dynamics in Presidential Scandals

A notable part of the discussion contrasts male and female leaders, highlighting that Dr. Lister found no significant sexual scandals involving female leaders such as Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir. She suggests that societal standards and perceptions of power and sexuality differ vastly between genders:

"The standards are just completely different for men and women."
— Dr. Kate Lister [38:54]

Eleanor Herman adds to this by noting the double standards in political electability based on personal lives:

"There's no way she would get elected. There's just no way."
— Eleanor Herman [38:51]

Lesser-Known Presidential Personalities

James Buchanan

Lister introduces James Buchanan as a potential example of a gay president, detailing his lifelong relationship with William Rufus King. Although not widely recognized, Buchanan's personal life challenges traditional narratives of presidential masculinity and heterosexuality.

"They were known as Mr. And Mrs. Buchanan or Aunt Nancy and Ms. Fancy."
— Dr. Kate Lister [27:53]

Abraham Lincoln

The conversation touches on rumors surrounding Abraham Lincoln and his close friendship with Joshua Speed. Dr. Lister remains skeptical about Lincoln's sexuality, attributing the rumors to later fabrications aimed at sensationalism.

"I don't see it as being a gay relationship especially... I think that it's just a h[oax]."
— Dr. Kate Lister [32:52]

Modern Implications and Future Scandals

Eleanor Herman raises the question of whether contemporary presidents will heed historical lessons to avoid sexual scandals. Dr. Lister maintains a pessimistic view, citing the persistent nature of Hubris Syndrome and the changing landscape of public tolerance:

"I don't think the hubris syndrome is too strong. It is a psychological disorder."
— Dr. Kate Lister [37:13]

She further observes that the public's focus on personal scandals has diminished, often overshadowed by political and economic considerations.

Exemplary Leaders with Respectful Personal Lives

In contrast to the tumultuous personal lives of some presidents, Dr. Lister highlights leaders like Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, who maintained stable and respectful marriages without notable scandals. These examples serve to illustrate that it is indeed possible for leaders to uphold personal integrity alongside their public duties.

"The Reagan's too really adored each other... There were no scandals associated with their personal lives."
— Dr. Kate Lister [39:21]

Conclusion

The episode "Presidents' Private Lives" offers a comprehensive exploration of how personal indiscretions, particularly those related to sexuality, have influenced and sometimes undermined the legacies of U.S. presidents. Through historical case studies and expert analysis, Eleanor Herman and Dr. Kate Lister shed light on the complex interplay between power, personal morality, and public perception, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the private lives that shape public histories.

Notable Quotes:

• "Their minds are not working. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure, but they do risk everything."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [07:26]

• "Thomas Jefferson was the first Virgil."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [14:16]

• "Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this."
  — Eleanor Herman [20:39]

• "The standards are just completely different for men and women."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [38:54]

Further Information:

For more in-depth discussions on American history and its multifaceted narratives, tune in to future episodes of American History Hit hosted by Don Wildman, available on all major podcast platforms.