Presidents' Private Lives

Summary

American History Hit: Presidents' Private Lives
Episode Release Date: November 7, 2024
Host: Eleanor Herman
Guest: Dr. Kate Lister

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Presidents' Private Lives," Eleanor Herman engages in a candid and insightful conversation with Dr. Kate Lister, a renowned historian and author of "Sex with Presidents: The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House." The discussion delves into the intimate and often controversial aspects of U.S. presidents' personal lives, exploring how power dynamics intersect with sexuality and the broader implications for their administrations and legacies.

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The Interplay of Power and Sexuality

Eleanor Herman opens the dialogue by framing the episode around the tumultuous political climate of the time, drawing parallels with historical events to underscore the enduring nature of political and personal scandals.

Dr. Kate Lister introduces the concept of Hubris Syndrome, a psychological disorder recognized by the psychiatric community in 2009, characterized by recklessness, narcissism, and a belief in one's invincibility—traits often exacerbated by the immense power held by presidents. She explains:

"Their minds are not working. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure, but they do risk everything."
— Dr. Kate Lister [07:26]

This sets the foundation for understanding why presidents may engage in risky sexual behavior despite potential scandals that could jeopardize their positions.

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Historical Case Studies

George Washington

Dr. Lister begins with George Washington, debunking the myth of his cherry tree incident and addressing rumors of his romantic entanglements. She clarifies that Washington's supposed affair with Sally Fairfax was more of a platonic crush than a scandalous affair, ultimately leading to his marriage with Martha Custis without any substantial evidence of infidelity.

"I don't think there's a one, really. I think he was probably very boring sexually."
— Dr. Kate Lister [09:25]

Thomas Jefferson

The conversation shifts to Thomas Jefferson, where Dr. Lister does not shy away from condemning his actions. Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemings, an enslaved woman, is highlighted as a profound abuse of power and personal ethics:

"Thomas Jefferson was the first Virgil."
— Dr. Kate Lister [14:16]

Lister emphasizes the complexity of Jefferson's legacy, acknowledging his political achievements while condemning his personal misconduct and the systemic exploitation inherent in his actions.

John F. Kennedy

John F. Kennedy (JFK) is identified as the most egregious example of presidential sexual misconduct in Lister's research. The duo discusses JFK's numerous affairs, including those that posed national security risks by potentially involving spies:

"Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this."
— Eleanor Herman [20:39]

Dr. Lister recounts how JFK's indiscretions were largely kept under wraps until the shift in journalistic integrity brought about by events like Watergate:

"He did not seem to be capable of understanding how much he was harming his wife."
— Dr. Kate Lister [23:47]

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The Impact of Journalism on Presidential Scandals

Lister explains the historical reluctance of the press to report on presidential scandals, attributing it to agreements within journalistic circles to avoid sensationalism. However, pivotal events such as the Vietnam War and Watergate dismantled this code, leading to increased scrutiny and disclosure of presidents' private lives.

"After Watergate, journalists felt that presidents were not to be protected and respected, but to be investigated."
— Dr. Kate Lister [22:00]

This shift dramatically changed the landscape of political journalism, making it more transparent and less deferential to presidential privacy.

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Gender Dynamics in Presidential Scandals

A notable part of the discussion contrasts male and female leaders, highlighting that Dr. Lister found no significant sexual scandals involving female leaders such as Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meir. She suggests that societal standards and perceptions of power and sexuality differ vastly between genders:

"The standards are just completely different for men and women."
— Dr. Kate Lister [38:54]

Eleanor Herman adds to this by noting the double standards in political electability based on personal lives:

"There's no way she would get elected. There's just no way."
— Eleanor Herman [38:51]

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Lesser-Known Presidential Personalities

James Buchanan

Lister introduces James Buchanan as a potential example of a gay president, detailing his lifelong relationship with William Rufus King. Although not widely recognized, Buchanan's personal life challenges traditional narratives of presidential masculinity and heterosexuality.

"They were known as Mr. And Mrs. Buchanan or Aunt Nancy and Ms. Fancy."
— Dr. Kate Lister [27:53]

Abraham Lincoln

The conversation touches on rumors surrounding Abraham Lincoln and his close friendship with Joshua Speed. Dr. Lister remains skeptical about Lincoln's sexuality, attributing the rumors to later fabrications aimed at sensationalism.

"I don't see it as being a gay relationship especially... I think that it's just a h[oax]."
— Dr. Kate Lister [32:52]

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Modern Implications and Future Scandals

Eleanor Herman raises the question of whether contemporary presidents will heed historical lessons to avoid sexual scandals. Dr. Lister maintains a pessimistic view, citing the persistent nature of Hubris Syndrome and the changing landscape of public tolerance:

"I don't think the hubris syndrome is too strong. It is a psychological disorder."
— Dr. Kate Lister [37:13]

She further observes that the public's focus on personal scandals has diminished, often overshadowed by political and economic considerations.

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Exemplary Leaders with Respectful Personal Lives

In contrast to the tumultuous personal lives of some presidents, Dr. Lister highlights leaders like Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, who maintained stable and respectful marriages without notable scandals. These examples serve to illustrate that it is indeed possible for leaders to uphold personal integrity alongside their public duties.

"The Reagan's too really adored each other... There were no scandals associated with their personal lives."
— Dr. Kate Lister [39:21]

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Conclusion

The episode "Presidents' Private Lives" offers a comprehensive exploration of how personal indiscretions, particularly those related to sexuality, have influenced and sometimes undermined the legacies of U.S. presidents. Through historical case studies and expert analysis, Eleanor Herman and Dr. Kate Lister shed light on the complex interplay between power, personal morality, and public perception, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the private lives that shape public histories.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Their minds are not working. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure, but they do risk everything."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [07:26]

• "Thomas Jefferson was the first Virgil."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [14:16]

• "Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this."
  — Eleanor Herman [20:39]

• "The standards are just completely different for men and women."
  — Dr. Kate Lister [38:54]

---

Further Information:

For more in-depth discussions on American history and its multifaceted narratives, tune in to future episodes of American History Hit hosted by Don Wildman, available on all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

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[Eleanor Herman]

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[Matt Lewis]

Deep in the ocean, an Orca pod is on the hunt. But these aren't your average orcas. These guys are organized marketing team.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Did you get those social media posts.

[Don Wildman]

Scheduled for the seal migration?

[Matt Lewis]

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[Dr. Kate Lister]

Deeper.

[Don Wildman]

Depending on how close one follows the coverage. We all have our own vague impression of what actually happens on Inauguration Day, when the President Elect of the United States, along with his or her spouse or partner, typically attends a church service, is sworn into office at the U.S. capitol, addresses the nation, and then makes the ceremonial journey up Pennsylvania Avenue before attending a whirlwind evening of inaugural balls. But within the White House perimeter that day, some 100 resident staffers begin work as early as 4am Decorating and making preparations, exchanging one set of president's belongings for the next, a tradition dating back to the earliest days of the Executive Mansion. It is an act of housekeeping, as practical as it is symbolic, the manifestation of the peaceful transition of power our democracy utterly relies upon. At the same time, it reminds us that, first and foremost, any president is only human, albeit a human with a very programmed schedule and limited personal time. Nonetheless, life moves onward. Spouses meet for meals, children are schooled, pets are house trained as the first family forges Ahead, as normally as it can in this election week. This is an episode of our sister podcast, Betwixt the Sheets, where Eleanor Herman, Formerly of episode 200, American History Hit, speaks to Dr. Kate Lister about the sex lives of presidents throughout American history. Please enjoy.

[Eleanor Herman]

Hello, and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Eleanor Harmon. How are you doing?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I am so delighted to be here again talking to you, Kate. I always have such a blast.

[Eleanor Herman]

I know. I love every single one of them. But this one feels particularly pertinent because this episode will be going out on November 5, which in the UK is remember, remember the 5th of November when Guy Fawkes tried to blow up Parliament. But for you guys, that's the day of the election.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I can't wait for it to be over. You know, as an American, I am so exhausted. I feel like for the past day, decade or so, I've been in a really horrible dream, very complicated and long, and I just wanna wake up.

[Eleanor Herman]

Doesn't it just feel like it's gone on forever and ever and ever? I mean, I look at this stuff and I think this is a gift for future historians. In 200 years, there'll be a different Kate. And Ellen has sat here trying to work out what the hell happened.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, hopefully they'll have more clarity than we do. It's just a confusing, horrific mess in this country.

[Eleanor Herman]

Well, our lawyers have told us that we're not allowed to talk about the sex lives of living presidents or potential presidents. So if anyone wants to hear about the sex lives of.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

That.

[Eleanor Herman]

Oh, my God, could we ever. So if anyone wants to hear that, you're gonna have to come back in, like, 10 years. That's what you'll have to do. But you have written a book called Sex with Presidents. The Ins and Outs of Love and Lust in the White House. What made you want to write this fascinating book, Eleanor?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, my first book was Sex with Kings, and I looked at the sex lives of, you know, European royals. The. The second book was Sex with the Queen. Queen. My third book was pretty much Sex in the Vatican. And then I did a lot of other books, and then this came out in 2020, sex with presidents. I figured I should turn my attention to US History and really did a deep dive. You know, I'm more expert on European history, and I was shocked to learn, you know, a lot about my own nation's history.

[Eleanor Herman]

Do you think that it's kind of. It's a weird one because most of us have sex. Most of us have sex, but there is something about power and sex that goes together. Do you think with all the research you've done around kings and queens and presidents, that something happens when you get given that much power when it comes to sex?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yes, it's true. There's actually a psychological disorder. It was really accepted as such by the psychiatric community in 2009 called Hubris Disorder. Wow. Unlike most mental illnesses, which develop in early adulthood, this one is triggered by wielding power over a period of time. And when that individual loses power, the illness subsides.

[Eleanor Herman]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And some of the characteristics of the disorder are recklessness, narcissism, believing that you're some kind of a messiah, that God has appointed you and you can do nothing wrong, not listening to the very good advice of your cabinet, feeling that you're a kind of God, Only you can save the nation. The interesting thing about it is it affects women as well as men. I mean, if you look at Maggie Thatcher in her last year or two, she was whacking that handbag of hers on the cabinet table, threatening to fire everybody. It happened with Golda Meir. It happened with Indira Gandhi. With men, however, the sexual recklessness comes into play. I haven't found in my research that any national female leader was, say, a jfk, for instance.

[Eleanor Herman]

That makes sense to me because one of the questions I was going to ask you as we're going through this is, why are they so stupid when it comes to sex? I know we haven't spoken about anyone in particular yet, but this will become a theme as we're going along. The recklessness of it and the entitlement of it and the fact that at any point, if this scandal got out, it could bring down a government. I've never understood why people risk that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

They think that they can get away with anything. Their minds are not working. There's no logic there. They think even if it gets out, it won't really matter. Everyone loves them. They're this messianic figure, but they do risk everything. Their family, their legacy, their political career. It's really crazy.

[Eleanor Herman]

I was talking to my friend about this just the other day, and she just looked at me and she said, kate, there is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And I thought, maybe that's true. But I'm glad that it actually has a name. Like, what was that? Hubris syndrome? So let's talk about one of the big American presidents. The first one, actually, I think George Washington. What do I know about George Washington? He was tall and he had false teeth. That's what I know about him.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And he actually did not cut down a cherry tree. Or was it an apple tree? But anyway, this story about George Washington and his so called love affair is really a nothing burger. There's really no there there. And I'm surprised that this is actually a thing. The story is when he was a young man, late teens, early 20s, he was staying with his brother Lawrence at Mount Vernon, and they would often visit their neighbors, which was George Fairfax, who was a fabulously wealthy British gentleman, and his young and pretty wife, Sally. This couple would educate Washington on good manners and polite society, which I think indicates he must have been a bit of a hayseed. They would provide him with books to read. He developed quite a crush on the wife, Sally, and nothing happened. And when he was 25, he married Martha Custis, and the two couples socialized till 1773 when the Fairfaxes returned to England. And he did write Sally a couple of letters saying that some of the happiest moments in his life had been spent in her company. And that's it.

[Eleanor Herman]

Oh, okay. That doesn't sound too scandalous. There doesn't sound. So there might not be too many skeletons in George's closet there.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I don't think there's a one, really. I think he was probably very boring sexually.

[Eleanor Herman]

Okay. All right, so, George. Okay, let's move across to Thomas Jefferson.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right. So Thomas Jefferson, though he was a founding father of the United States and a brilliant man in several different respects, he was really not a decent human being, in my view. I was shocked to discover that. But he had an enslaved woman named Sally Hemings. He had gotten her pregnant when she was 16. She ended up having seven children with him. And when he was president in the first decade of the 1800s, his political opponents got a tabloid journalist to dig into this story. I mean, many people knew about it. You know, they would see his son who looked just like him.

[Eleanor Herman]

Wow.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And so these stories got out there. But, you know, Jefferson was such a successful president in many ways, and he doubled the size of the country by organizing the Louisiana Purchase. And so in the next election, people, the voters, just didn't really care that he had this relationship.

[Eleanor Herman]

Was it scandalous at the time? I mean, I know that he was the president, and his political enemies will have been on the hunt for anything that they could get their teeth into. But a slave owner having a family with an enslaved woman, how scandalous would that have been at the time?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, I think it was quite common. Quite common indeed. I think the difference with Jefferson Is that he was president. And there were certainly people who, who disapproved, especially up in the non slaveholding states. In New England, for instance, they thought it was pretty disgusting.

[Eleanor Herman]

It's just awful. The thing that I can't get my head around that. I mean, you just keep going and it just gets worse and worse. But how could you enslave your own children? That blows my mind.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I think he wanted them around him. He promised her they were in France. He was the US ambassador. When she first became pregnant at 16, she had gone there with his to bring his daughter over. And he told her, you know, she knew that if she stayed in France, she would be free because France did not recognize slavery. And he said, if you come back with me, I'll, you know, provide for you and the child and I'll free all the children when they're 21. Well, she ended up having seven kids. Four of them survived infancy. And, you know, when they were 21, there was no freedom. Now, he did not put them in the fields or in the very arduous tasks. He taught them how to be carpenters so they had skills, they could earn money. Some of them, you know, served in the, in the house. But, you know, at a certain point, they all just left without his permission. They just, they just left. Two of them could pass as white and they, they changed their names and disappeared.

[Eleanor Herman]

Wow. And what happened to Sally? What do we know about her? Sally Hemings? Was she ever freed? Did he ever free her?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

She was. There was a legal thing that they did where she was just sort of freed and that's what happened to her. But, you know, he spent his last few years entertaining lavishly and he did not have the money. And he knew as he was getting older that when he died, hundreds of his enslaved people were going to be put on the auction block and sold off, and families split up, and that's exactly what happened to them. Instead of, you know, trying to free them, which wasn't always easy at the time, legally, he just figured, you know, they'd be sold and then the money would go to his daughters, pay off his debts. Wow. For entertaining.

[Eleanor Herman]

And at the time, this seems like it was quite a scandal. It seems like it's quite an open secret. But it was one of those kind of did they, didn't they? What was really going on? Is it just a vicious rumor for a long, long time. But they did actually prove this with DNA evidence, didn't they, that this is what happened?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. When DNA first came out in the 90s, there were tests done. You know, the thing about DNA is sometimes it just gives you a general idea of where the DNA came from. So people who did not want to believe our founding father had all these children with his enslaved woman said it could be his brother, you know, and according to the DNA, it could have been the brother. Except Thomas Jefferson kept a list every day of everything that went on in his household, on his plantation, who visited, how long they stayed. His brother lived some distance away, and, you know, over. Over a period of a couple decades, he visited a handful of times, not one of which would have been around the timeframe when Sally Hemings got pregnant. So I think it's really safe to say that Thomas Jefferson was the first. Virgil.

[Eleanor Herman]

I think I can go on a limb and say that. I think I would agree with you there, Eleanor. Right, so he, Thomas Jefferson is a jerk, then. And that would be putting it very, very mildly. Is he the worst one that you found in your research? Was he the worst one that just made you go, oh, God, no, no, put it away. Keep it in your pants. You're horrible, man?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

The worst one was jfk.

[Eleanor Herman]

We have spoken about JFK before, and he didn't ever, ever stay faithful to his wife, Jackie. Like, not even a little bit, did he?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Not even on the honeymoon, Kate. Jesus Christ. They were at a. They went to Mexico for their honeymoon, and they were at a very lovely soiree at some wealthy person's house, and he disappeared into a guest room with a blonde while Jackie's standing there feeling like a complete idiot.

[Eleanor Herman]

Like, it is pathological. Like when. Cause in the episode that you came on and we spoke specifically about jfk, is that when you're laying it all out, I'm actually hearing it, thinking, these aren't the actions of a well man. Like, this isn't normal behavior by any means. This is weird behavior.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, you know, in the White House, just as in Buckingham palace, the male leader and the spouse each had separate bedroom suites. So there's the President's side of the residence and then the First Lady's. So when Jackie was away, which was frequently, she just needed to get away from him. JFK would bring women up. Do you think he took them to his own bed?

[Eleanor Herman]

Oh, no. Oh, I would hope that he did.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

He did not. He always took them to Jackie's bed, where they would have sex on her bed. And then the staff. And this is the weirdest part, which I don't get. They wouldn't change the sheet. I don't know if they weren't he didn't want them to. Or if he used so many pairs of sheets every day with these women that they just didn't have enough of a supply. So the staff would have to pick hairs and bobby pins off of the sheets and they would often complain, why didn't he bed brunettes? Because then Jackie would just think, well, they're my hairs and my bobby pins. But he always seemed to take blondes. One night, Jackie found a pair of underpants under her pillow and she fished it out and said to her husband, can you find the owner of these? These are not my size.

[Eleanor Herman]

Jesus.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Wow.

[Eleanor Herman]

So Jackie knew. I mean, how could she not know what he was up to? But she was. She kind of did that thing that a lot of women married to powerful men have done down the years and sort of made their peace with the fact that, yeah, if he stands still long enough, he's gonna have a go at it.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yes, she became severely depressed. You know, she had been warned before the marriage by his friends who really liked her, saying, you know, this is not a good idea. He's never going to be faithful to you. I mean, not on day one. And she saw it as a challenge and thought, you know, wealthy and powerful men may have an affair.

[Eleanor Herman]

I'll change him.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, she thought she would change him or maybe he'd have an affair now and then. I think she had no idea how sick his sexual behavior was. But, you know, she got depressed. And back in the 60s, doctors were just prescribing pills, uppers, downers, all kinds. And so she got addicted to pills because of her depression.

[Don Wildman]

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[Eleanor Herman]

Why didn't the press get Kennedy on this? Because like any journalist, they wouldn't have even need to research this. Very hard to have discovered. Hang on. The President is running around America like a dog with two penises here. Like, why didn't that hit the press? Why wasn't that a scandal?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I'll tell you why. It's a very fascinating story. Ever since the advent of newspapers, pamphlets, broadsheets in the 1500s, the press had been very salacious, always seeking scandal because it sold them right. Printers and publishers made a lot of money from these stories. Whether it's witches in New England in the 1600s, or the sex lives of kings throughout all of those centuries. And then about 1900, journalists decided that they were going to be more respectable. The National Press Club was founded about that time. And they came to a kind of agreement that they would not report on these scandalous stories that gentlemen reporters did not report on gentlemen politicians, love affairs. And so they just clammed up. They didn't report on Woodrow Wilson's mistress around the time of the first World War. They didn't report on Warren Harding in the early 1920s. He was right there behind Kennedy, I would have to say all of his women, Franklin Dell, Eleanor Roosevelt had several mistresses, everyone knew. And then of course, the worst was jfk. And reporters would come into a hotel suite, see some naked actress running around or lying on the bed, and they were not allowed to report it. Now what changed? This was a few events. The Vietnam War really shook journalism and the reporters realized how they were being lied to. Teddy Kennedy goes careening off a bridge, swims to safety, and leaves the young woman he was with to drown. That really shook a lot of journalists who knew for years he was just a drunken mess, you know, waiting to harm someone and they had never reported it. And then the final nail in the coffin of this hands off approach to president's sexual peccadillas was Watergate. And after that, journalists felt that presidents were not to be protected and respected, but to be investigated. So suddenly all of these stories came. This was only about a decade after the JFK scandals. And those people who were witnesses to his misbehavior or were his mistresses suddenly gave press interviews, wrote books. So that's how come we know so much about jfk.

[Eleanor Herman]

Wow. Yeah, he's got to be up there, hasn't he, with like the most. I don't even know what the word is, because it's not the fact that he had a lot of sex. People can have a lot of sex. It's just sexually morally repugnant with what he was doing, cheating on his wife, taking advantage of people. Like you laid it out in the last episode that you came on like really not even being nice to these women that he's having an affair with. Really, he's just using them like a conveyor belt.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right. And he did not seem to be capable of understanding how much he was harming his wife. One of his friends said, you know, you are really hurting Jackie. And Kennedy said, no, I'm not. I give her everything she wants.

[Eleanor Herman]

There you go. Look at that. Look at that.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

So to get back at him, she would spend wildly. And at the last minute, as first lady, she would often refuse to go to events where people were lining up looking forward to meet her because she knew it drove him crazy. Wow.

[Eleanor Herman]

And of course, you've got issues of national security. If he's having at it with anything with a pulse is, you know, sweet. What do they call him? Honey trap? Spies.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, there are two issues of that. One is there was a potential for spies. You know, back in World War II, he was having an affair with a Swedish woman who was thought to be a spy for Hitler.

[Eleanor Herman]

Brilliant. Well done.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

The Olympics. And she thought he was a man with a very kind heart. She wrote, hitler was a man with a kind heart.

[Eleanor Herman]

Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And so the FBI bugged their sexual encounters, and so he was transferred to the Pacific. But even when he was president, 20 years later, he had an affair with a woman who was thought to be an East German spy. And another woman called Judith Campbell, known as the Mafia mole. She was the mistress of the crime boss of Chicago, the fellow who had taken over from Al Capone. So he was just setting himself up for blackmail. Completely reckless. The other security issue is that these women would show up at the White House door and say, the President invited me. And the Secret Service knew he was not gonna wait, happily, for them to check these women out. I mean, there was no Internet. I mean, how are you even gonna check these women out at the door? So they would let them up, and they were very worried because even if they didn't have a weapon on them after sex, Kennedy would. He'd have some cold dishes prepared in the little kitchen up in the residence, and there were butcher knives up there. And the Secret Service was very much afraid they'd find the President stabbed to death in the shower one day. And there was nothing they could do about it.

[Eleanor Herman]

There is nothing stupider on this planet than a horny man. And JFK just exemplified. So he is an absolute dirtbag for all his politics. And he was great, and he was fabulous, but he was still sexually a dirtbag. Let's talk gay presidents. Has there ever been a gay president, Eleanor?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yes, there was one. It's not widely known. His name was James Buchanan, and he was the president before Abraham Lincoln. He's best known for just muddling politics so badly that he helped bring on the Civil War. Soon after he left. Oh, whoop. He was the only US President to remain a lifelong bachelor. But that didn't mean he led a celibate life. When he was a young man, he met William Rufus King, who was what we might call flamboyantly gay. And they developed a lifelong relationship and often lived together. King was a senator from Alabama. So over the course of their 23 years as a couple, they would often socialize in Washington. And they were known as Mr. And Mrs. Buchanan or Aunt Nancy and Ms. Fancy. So those were terms usually used to note gay men. And when King went to France to serve as U.S. ambassador in the 1840s, Buchanan wrote to a friend that he was very lonely and that he'd gone a wooing to several gentlemen, but they had all turned him down. So William Rufus King became vice president and died in 1853. And then a few years later, Buchanan became president. And when Buchanan died, his nieces and nephews went through his papers and his desk, and they were so horrified by whatever it was they found there that they lit a big bonfire in the backyard. Immediately. No, no.

[Eleanor Herman]

As a sex historian, how often do we read that, that a family found papers after they died and then was so horrified they had to burn it and were always going, no.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right, right. And it happened with Warren Harding. In the early 1920s when he died, his wife found, you know, these 50 page pornographic letters that he had written and women had written him. And it took her several days. There was a big bonfire in the. In the backyard of the White House. And she'd come in after 12 hours of burning these things with soot and ashes all over her face.

[Eleanor Herman]

12 hours?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah. This went on for several days, and there were still so many more that she took all of these boxes of, you know, some of them were official White House documents to her friend's house across town. And they spent several more days burning them, which led Congress to pass the Official Records act, that you cannot steal or damage or destroy any official records, because there's actually very few left from the Harding administration. She had burned them all just to make sure all the pornographic stuff was gone.

[Eleanor Herman]

So, Buchanan, for your money, and to be honest, I think I'm gonna agree with you, he was a gay man. And it seems at the time it was well known. Now, there have been rumors, just whispery, sneaky rumors about Abraham Lincoln. Maybe he was a gay man. And what do you think of that?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Well, let's just examine the story and how it came about. When he was a young lawyer in Springfield, Illinois, he needed a couple of rooms to rent, and he met a young man named Joshua Speed. And they became roommates, and they slept in a single bed, which was very customary for the time people didn't have their own space the way we do. Now, if you were a man traveling and you booked a bed in an inn, you might find two or three other people in the bed, complete strangers. Now that didn't mean you were having a gay orgy. It just meant that's what the sleeping arrangements were for the time. Kings and queens in Europe almost always had a member of the same sex, a lady in waiting, or a general of the bedchamber sleeping with them, if only for warmth. In the winter, it was usually so cold. So that's the story. They had a lifelong friendship. And then in 1999, a gay activist and historian named Larry Kramer claimed that he had dug up Speed's diary and all of these salacious letters about him and his sexual relationship with Lincoln. He never showed them. And he wrote a novel shortly afterward about this relationship. I think he was just doing this hoax to sell his novel. Now if anyone found this material, that, that should be a nonfiction work which would sell millions of copies. So I, I think that it's just a h.

[Matt Lewis]

I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yanaga. And in Gone Medieval we get into the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, Kings and popes who were rarely the best of friends. Murder, rebellions and crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from history hit on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Eleanor Herman]

The evidence for Lincoln then seems to be that he had historians always people take the mick out of us for going. They were just close friends. But he did have a very close friendship with this guy. Yes, Speed. And they shared a bed. And it wasn't just for a night. It was for quite a while that they were doing that. But that's sort of the extent of the evidence for that, isn't it, really?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yeah, they were roommates and good friends. I just, I don't see it as being a gay relationship especially, you know, and the rumors didn't really come out till this man said he found the diary that he never showed anybody so hard.

[Eleanor Herman]

So there were no rumors at the time. It wasn't like with Buchanan, where it was Miss Nancy and Miss Fancy.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Not at all.

[Eleanor Herman]

Nobody at the time. Right. Okay, okay, okay. That's mildly disappointing. I was really hoping there that you would say, yeah, he was definitely a fabulous gay man. Oh, do you know, the one that I was really upset about was fdr. I thought he did stay faithful to his wife. No.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

And, you know, I don't blame him, to tell you the truth. I mean, that wasn't a situation like with Harding or with jfk, where they were just, you know, sexually depraved. Fdr, you know, he married. He was a wealthy socialite in New England and New York, and he married Eleanor Roosevelt, who was a distant cousin of his, because, you know, she was just very intelligent and very serious and not like the flighty debutantes. But soon after the wedding, they realized they were just very poorly suited to one another. He loved sex. She hated it. He liked feminine, frilly women. With each year, she seemed to be getting a bit more masculine in her appearance and tastes. He had a great sense of humor. She had absolutely no sense of humor. And so over time, he fell in love with Eleanor's social secretary, Lucy Mercer, and they had an affair. And what happened was Eleanor found out and said, I'm going to divorce you. And he was very happy to divorce Eleanor, despite all of the children they had by that time. But his mother wanted him to become president and said. And she controlled the purse strings in the family. She said, you know, I'm never going to give you another dime. You're going to ruin your political career. So it was a political marriage from that point out. Eleanor never had sex with him again, and he soon started having an affair with his secretary, Missy Lehand. And then Lucy comes back into his life after he becomes president. She was actually with him the day he died in 1945. And Eleanor was aware of it and had, you know, had her own relationships, but, you know, it was a long story. Well, she had a gay affair with a woman named. Named Hick, who was a reporter for a few years. She just became too busy, I think, as friends to keep that going. And maybe she was afraid of scandal, but, you know, she supported Hick until her death. She got diabetes. Hick. She went blind. And Eleanor always took care of her and loved her. And then there were some rumors about some men, some dashing men, too.

[Eleanor Herman]

One of the ones I want to talk to you about. Is we're kind of drawing it to where we are going to have to stop talking about people, because they're still alive. But Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson. Now, one of the things I do, or at least I read it about him, apparently he had a huge penis and he called it jumbo and liked to show it to people.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Yes. When he got really mad at people when he was in the Senate or the White House, he would take it out and wave it at them, I think, as a show. So weird. Very weird. But he was very. He was a big, tall man and a rugged Texan. He was crazy about his wife, Lady Bird, but he just couldn't help himself when it came to women. One day, Lady Bird, first lady, comes walking into the Oval Office, and he's there having sex with one of his secretaries on the sofa. And Lady Bird knew all about this and forgave him because she loved him and knew he couldn't help himself. So she just said, excuse me, and walked out. And Johnson was livid and had a buzzer installed so that his staff could ring it and let him know to pull his pants up by the time Lady Bird walked into the Oval Office. So that pretty much settled that.

[Eleanor Herman]

Wow. Okay. Going forward for this, because I'm just thinking about powerful men, presidents, and the sex that they have. Do you think that they will learn their lessons from history? Mentioning no names in particular, but there are current sex scandals around presidents or former presidents that could threaten to take down an organization. And I'm just wondering now when we've got so much tabloid journalism and the Internet and everything is under scrutiny in a way it's never been before. Do you think it'll stop them?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

No, I don't. I think the hubris syndrome is too strong. It is a psychological disorder. It's like telling an addict, don't take that drug, or an alcoholic, hey, don't take this drink right in front of you. I also think, despite the scandals that have erupted in the past about a candidate's sexuality, ultimately, I don't think we care. When I look at, say, the Thomas Jefferson election, you know, he'd had a relationship and several children with his enslaved woman, but he doubled the size of the country and he was very popular for, you know, the country was going very strong economically. They didn't care about his sex life. People vote for in their own interests nowadays. We don't even really squeak and squawk as much as we did. I just don't think we care. When you look at certain public officials and all these scandals, people just don't care anymore. I do think it would be interesting when you look at female leaders around the world. I have never uncovered a sexual scandal with any of these women while in office or even before as far as I can remember. I mean, Maggie Thatcher, Benazir Bhutto, Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Theresa May, they don't have this history. I don't think that the overweening sexuality that comes with a hubris disorder and power attacks them in the same way that it does men.

[Eleanor Herman]

And they would never be elected in the same way. Like if a woman ran for the Prime Minister in the UK and she had multiple ex partners and ex husbands and wasn't even sure how many children she'd actually had.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right.

[Eleanor Herman]

There's no way she would get elected. There's just no way.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Right, yeah. Which is my last book. Off with her head. 3,000 years of demonizing Women in Power. The standards are just completely different for men and women.

[Eleanor Herman]

And as a final question, in all the research that you've done about president sex lives, not counting any who are living, was there any that were nice? Was there any that you looked into them and you went, oh, he just really loved his partner and he just. Yeah. And he was just happy to stay at home and there was no cheating. Was there anyone like that Jimmy Carter.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Who this week is celebrating his 100th birthday. He married when he was what, 19 or 20? She was 18. Rosalind, she just died a year or two ago. They were together something like 80 years. That was probably the sweetest. The Reagan's too really adored each other. And you know, the thing about these happily married presidential couples is that you don't really think about their marriages because they're not on the front pages of the newspapers.

[Eleanor Herman]

Eleanor, you have been wonderful to talk to again. You always are. And if people want to know more about you and your research, where can they find you?

[Dr. Kate Lister]

I'[e-mail] look me up. I'd be happy to hear from you.

[Eleanor Herman]

And we will get you back on when your next book is published. That sounds fascinating.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Thank you so much.

[Eleanor Herman]

Thank you for coming on again. You are wonderful.

[Don Wildman]

Hello folks. Thanks for listening to American History hit. Each week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of great content like mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great. But you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share with a friend American history. Hit with me Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Bye for now.

[Unknown]

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[Eleanor Herman]

Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

[Unknown]

Like, what's the history behind bacon wrapped hot dogs?

[Eleanor Herman]

Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Unknown]

Our podcast Hungry for History is back.

[Eleanor Herman]

And this season we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Food and its history, seeing that the.

[Eleanor Herman]

Most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba and the pina colada from Puerto Rico.

[Unknown]

Listen to Hungry for history on the.

[Dr. Kate Lister]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.