Revolutionary War: What If the British Won?

Summary

Revolutionary War: What If the British Won?
American History Hit – Episode Released on July 10, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into a fascinating counterfactual scenario: What if the British had won the American Revolutionary War? Joined by historian Jonathan Bratton and renowned history communicator Dan Snow, the trio explores the pivotal moments that nearly led to American defeat and examines the profound implications a British victory would have had on the United States and the broader world.

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1. Pivotal Moments Nearly Leading to American Defeat

The discussion begins with an analysis of critical junctures during the Revolutionary War where the nascent American colonies teetered on the brink of defeat.

Jonathan Bratton highlights the severe challenges faced during the Valley Forge winter of 1777-1778:

"During every winter encampment, the Continental Army questioned its survival, facing starvation and mass desertions without a reliable supply line like the British Royal Navy" (03:41).

Bratton emphasizes how the lack of resources and the harsh conditions tested the resilience of the American forces, making victories at battles such as Trenton and Princeton all the more remarkable.

Additionally, the Canadian invasion of 1775, led by Benedict Arnold, serves as a pivotal example of an early offensive that disastrously backfired:

"The Americans captured Montreal, but their attack on Quebec ended in repulsion, showcasing the immense difficulty of sustaining offensive operations with limited resources" (05:45).

Dan Snow adds context to this by recounting the brutal winter conditions during the Quebec campaign:

"On December 31st, amid brutal snow, General Richard Montgomery was killed, and Arnold was wounded, forcing a retreated back to the south" (05:45).

These moments underscore how precarious the American position was and set the stage for contemplating a British victory.

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2. British Successes and Strategic Advantages

Don Wildman shifts the conversation to the British side, examining their strategic successes that could have tipped the war in their favor.

Dan Snow outlines key British victories:

"The British recaptured New York and Savannah, establishing strongholds that were difficult to dislodge due to their naval superiority and logistical support" (07:52).

He details the Southern Campaign of 1780, particularly the Battle of Camden:

"The massacre at Camden was a disaster for the Americans, demonstrating the effectiveness of British European tactics in the American landscape" (08:23).

These successes, however, did not translate into sustained control, as maintaining such vast territories posed significant logistical and military challenges for Britain.

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3. Counterfactual Implications of a British Victory

Exploring deeper into the hypothetical, the trio examines what a British victory might have entailed for North America and beyond.

Dan Snow raises concerns about Britain's capacity to govern an expanded empire:

"Britain would have faced immense difficulties in militarily occupying territories stretching from Florida to the Canadian border and the Great Lakes, a task beyond their peacetime capabilities" (12:49).

Jonathan Bratton adds that maintaining control over these regions would have likely led to extensive violence and repression:

"British authorities would have imposed harsh measures similar to those in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands, including executions and forcible relocations" (17:34).

The conversation also touches on the complexities of slavery. Dan Snow notes:

"British promises of freedom to enslaved individuals who joined their cause would have created further social and economic tensions, potentially leading to more violence" (22:36).

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4. Economic and Domestic Consequences

A British victory would have had dire economic repercussions for the American colonies. Dan Snow speculates:

"The American economy would have been devastated by British impositions, leading to severe taxation and economic strain akin to what was experienced during the war" (23:50).

Jonathan Bratton connects this to potential subsequent conflicts, referencing the War of 1812:

"If the British had won, the Treaty of Paris would have left the colonies economically weakened and politically unstable, possibly leading to another rebellion or war for independence" (24:10).

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5. Impact on American Identity and National Philosophy

The episode delves into the philosophical underpinnings of American identity, rooted in the mythology of rebellion and victory against the odds.

Jonathan Bratton reflects on the lasting legacy of the Revolution:

"The Declaration of Independence sowed the seeds for future struggles for self-determination, embodying a paradox where America's ideals of equality continuously drive it to redefine itself" (32:23).

This ongoing revolution, as Bratton describes, shapes the American character, fostering a perpetual quest for identity and purpose:

"The American experiment is an ongoing process of redefining who we are and how we fit into the revolutionary ideals set forth in 1776" (32:56).

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6. Speculations on Territorial Changes and Future Conflicts

The conversation ventures into the speculative realm of altered geopolitical landscapes. Dan Snow muses:

"Without the American Revolution, the borders we know today could look entirely different, possibly involving territorial exchanges with other colonial powers like France or Spain" (31:19).

Jonathan Bratton explores the potential fragmentation of the United States into smaller nations or regions:

"Future states like Texas or New Mexico might have pursued independence, leading to a patchwork of smaller nations across North America" (30:21).

This fragmentation would have significantly altered the political and cultural development of the continent.

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7. Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of the American Revolution

In wrapping up, Don Wildman emphasizes the profound "what if" of the British victory scenario, highlighting how the absence of this core revolutionary experience would have fundamentally changed American identity.

Dan Snow humorously contemplates cultural differences:

"If Britain had won, Americans might miss out on traditions like American football, embracing instead British customs like cricket" (35:31).

This lighthearted remark underscores the deep-seated cultural shifts that define the United States today, shaped largely by the triumph of the American Revolution.

Jonathan Bratton concludes with the notion that the American Revolution remains an ongoing process:

"We are continuously navigating our revolutionary ideals, striving to align our actions with the foundational principles established in 1776" (35:27).

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This episode offers a compelling exploration of alternative history, encouraging listeners to reflect on the fragility of historical outcomes and the profound impact they have on national identity and global dynamics.

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Notable Quotes:

• "During every winter encampment, the Continental Army questioned its survival, facing starvation and mass desertions without a reliable supply line like the British Royal Navy." – Jonathan Bratton (03:41)

• "The Americans captured Montreal, but their attack on Quebec ended in repulsion, showcasing the immense difficulty of sustaining offensive operations with limited resources." – Jonathan Bratton (05:45)

• "Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall surely hang separately." – Benjamin Franklin (Referenced by Jonathan Bratton) (15:39)

• "The American experiment is an ongoing process of redefining who we are and how we fit into the revolutionary ideals set forth in 1776." – Jonathan Bratton (32:56)

• "If Britain had won, Americans might miss out on traditions like American football, embracing instead British customs like cricket." – Dan Snow (35:31)

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For history enthusiasts and those intrigued by the complexities of the American Revolution, this episode of American History Hit provides a rich, engaging exploration of how a single outcome could have reshaped the modern world.

Transcript

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[Don Wildman]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Welcome to New York City. Local time is 3:20pm for your safety, please remain seated with your seatbelt fastened and keep the aisles clear until we reach the gate. Looks like a nice sunny day out there. Temperatures around 30 degrees Celsius with a light breeze. Thanks for flying with us. You have a great day. And with that, despite the captain's gracious request, we, the passengers on this eight hour flight, just arrived from London, unclip our belts, loosen our limbs and sore muscles. Doors are open. We collect our belongings and take that long walk to baggage claim with a cursory stop at passport control. Yeah, that part's easy. Just takes a brief moment. After all, we're among our own here under the same proud red, white and blue banner, the Union Jack. Hey, could have happened if the British had won the Revolutionary War way back when. Those colonies could have remained under the British thumb and just imagine the possibilities. Hello everyone, it's Don Wildman and this is American History hit. I am joined today again by Jonathan Bratton and Dan Snow, my good friends. You can listen to Dan, Jonathan and me exploring the American victory in a previous episode linked in the show notes. The upshot is the colonies win the American Revolution. But you know, that was never a sure thing. This all got us thinking, how might the world have looked had the colonies lost the Revolutionary War in the late 18th century? Before we jump into the hypotheticals or counterfactual history, let's first think about when in the war the outcome might have gone the other way. Jonathan, in your mind, are there key moments during that eight year conflict called the American Revolution where you think the colonies really were inches from defeat?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah, that's a great question and there's so many examples. So I'll pick the key ones. I think the one that is going to jump to everyone's mind first is of course the times that tried men's souls, as Thomas Paine said, which is the fall winter, 1776 into 1777 with the crushing American defeats around New York, you know, following this season of optimism after expelling the British from Boston, these crushing defeats, and Washington has been pushed out of not just New York, but New Jersey and down into Pennsylvania. And people wondering, can this army survive? And of course he brings that out with a series of amazing victories at Trenton, Princeton. You have honestly, every winter encampment everyone thinks about Valley Forge 1777-1778. But a winter encampment is essentially creating a city in the countryside out of nothing and really trying to, you have to have a good logistics system. The great thing that the British have is that they have a Royal Navy, they have a lifeline. Yes, it's long and it's stressed, but it is reliable. And it will show up with salt pork and salt beef and hard bread. And this is not a thing that the Americans have. And so every winter they are starving, they're, they're enduring privations, they're enduring mass desertions. And there is this question of will we have an army come springtime?

[Don Wildman]

I mean, the famous ones are Valley Forge, there are two major winter encampments there, but then there's also Morristown. There's also a New Jersey one which goes very badly.

[Jonathan Bratton]

It does, but they managed to survive these and they get a lot better at it post 1778. But you have these constant moments of wondering, will there be an army in the field for the next campaign? Season.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, very touch and go. A moment very early on in this war that escapes people's notice. Many people, Dan, is the Canadian invasion that the Americans launch, one Benedict Arnold, taking soldiers through the woods of northern Maine today and attacking Canada, sort of a deathstroke at the early part of the war. Does not go our way.

[Jonathan Bratton]

No.

[Dan Snow]

I mean it's funny how these attempts to take over Canada can backfire on you. It's a strange, strange thing. But yeah, I mean this is a disaster for the American forces, but because it's an offensive operation rather than some of the ones that Jonathan just been mentioning, perhaps it isn't quite in the same category. It's not an existential threat, but that's a disaster. It shows how hard it is to launch offensive operations with the troops, with the money, with the equipment, with the food they had at the time. This is not easy. Yeah, they hack their way through the main wilderness and they do pretty well. I mean the extraordinary thing in this 1775 invasion, fall 75 is they do a force captures Montreal and then the British commander in Montreal disguises himself as a kind of farmer and runs away to Quebec. Quebec's one of the last major strongholds in British held Canada to hold out. So it's all going to come down. The iron dice will be rolled before the walls of Quebec like they were in 1759 with General Wolfe. This time it's the, the English speaking Americans and Brits who are going to fight out for who actually gets to own Canada. And by the skin of their teeth, the British. Hold on. General Richard Montgomery, who's marched up, he's the guy that's taken Montreal. He's killed in the outskirts, in the suburbs basically at the gate of Quebec. Benedict Arnold is wounded. The attack is repulsed. The Snow's falling. It's the 31st of December. It's brutal. And so that's how close the high tide mark comes in Canada. And it's weird to think that the Americans might have destroyed British North America even in that early stage, but yeah, the Americans end up retreating back south.

[Don Wildman]

It's amazing how long that campaign goes. I think of it just as in the fall when he's sailing down the Lake Champlain and getting away, but. But it really had taken over a year, all of that.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, I mean it's. Well, it takes months, you know, it takes months. It's a, it's a lot of ground to cover. And there are plans later in 1786 as well to spread the revolution to Canada.

[Don Wildman]

They're still Trying to. So we've talked a bit about what the colonies did wrong. What did the British do right that could have turned the tables? And I'm thinking later in the war where the colonies had taken the upper hand, but the British made a push and for a while took back a little bit of control in the Southern Campaign of 1780. Talk to me about those British successes.

[Dan Snow]

Well, there's a quick 1 in 76. The British take New York. They have every opportunity. Well, they have an opportunity to destroy George Washington and the Continental army, the US army, as it becomes at that point in that campaign. They wriggle out of Long island, they get across the east river, they get back into Manhattan, they escape from Manhattan, they get. They'll retreat up the river, they'll retreat through New Jersey. They build a big chain, famously, at West Point, that arguably does help to several of them. They build several. You're right. So there are chances there in 76 to destroy. I'm not sure it's going to destroy the American republic, but to certainly destroy their main field army. And then. Yeah, you're right. They have a number of successes on paper, if you like. They have a number of successes in the Southern colonies. They capture back Savannah, Georgia, in 78, late 78. So that's another big base like New York, another big, solid base where the Brits are able to keep supplied from the water by their navy. So they're going to be pretty hard to get out of there. They're going to be pretty hard to dislodge from there. In fact, the Americans and the French do try later in the war and fail. They capture same kind of thing. Charleston, South Carolina, same kind of thing. They do actually capture a very large number of American troops with that one as well. So you're biting off these kind of toeholds on the coast in particular. And then from Charleston, they launch this interesting campaign, just charging up through the Carolinas. And I've been at an excavation on the battlefield of Camden, which was fought there in August 1780. Just a disastrous battle for the Americans, the kind of battle that the Brits hope would be replicated all through the war. The Americans just take one or two volleys and then just crumble. Some of the professionals fight a bit harder, but it's just a disaster. And the redcoats are dominant. And this is the Brits thinking this is how we thought this would come. You know, we're going to bring these European tactics and sort of training to these American battlefields, but they don't get Anything they win these battles, they don't seem to get anything for them because wherever they march through, the Stars and Stripes are raised in their wake. You know, it's very hard to hold down and contain these huge chunks of territory. You'd really have to do what you're doing in Charleston, do what you're doing in Canada. You have to. All over the country. You'd have to send a regiment, a couple companies to every single village and town right across the whole thing. Just as the Americans.

[Don Wildman]

Just as you find in counterinsurgencies the home turf advantage. If you're going to occupy a country, it takes a lot of manpower to do that, and the British don't have that at the time. Jonathan, it's no coincidence we don't hear much about that Southern campaign that doesn't make it through to the textbooks very often.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah, I mean, it's not a cool, great story of Americans. I mean, the best you'll get out of it is that. Absolutely. I suppose the most you'll get out of it, definitely not the best, is the utterly debacle of a movie called the Patriot, which is one of Dan's favorites.

[Don Wildman]

I know, I happen to like that movie myself. One of the big challenges, certainly for Washington, but his underlings as well, is managing this army, which is constantly in a fractured state. Right. I mean, it's really difficult to organize this and pay people. And, you know, all the internal management is overlooked by history.

[Jonathan Bratton]

It is. And so what you have really, you know, how these losses impact the revolutionary forces. It's hitting at the cohesion of the colonies is the biggest thing. It's not even just the armies in the field. You've got leaders in the Continental army resigning. You've got leaders in fighting. You've got one leader who decides that his fate is better off with the British. That stings. Benedict Arnold's turn. Daniel Morgan, prior to his victory at the Battle of Cowpens, is going to. He's going to just retire. You know, he and Arnold actually have very interesting career paths. They've both been sort of treated poorly by their governments. After putting out, literally leaving everything on the field, you know, spending all of their own private money, Arnold will go to the enemy. Morgan will try to retire again. Comes out of retirement begrudgingly to win a great victory in the Carolinas. At the Cowpens, you have massive congressional infighting where states cannot agree with each other. You can't get Congress to actually pass bills to pay the army. The army will go unpaid until largely until the French show up with actual specie in 1780, 1781. This army is fighting without wages for the duration of the war. And that is going to have a massive effect on manpower. Where are you going to get these people to continue fighting? And so eventually call each colony, you know, each state as they will become, has to institute a draft law, has to institute laws to force people into service. That's not exactly, you know, the narrative that we're taught as, oh, these patriotic Americans all just jumping up and serving for love of, for love of country. But this is what these British victories are doing. It's threatening to undo the very delicate cohesion that is American unity at this point.

[Don Wildman]

So I want to propose a counterfactual. Very simply, what if the colonists had lost? What if the British had won? What would have been the results of that? Would the colonies have launched another war afterwards? What do you think, Dan?

[Dan Snow]

Wow, it's just, it's mind boggling to think of the challenges that would have faced the British if they had won that war. They would have had to militarily occupy a very, an enormous stretch of ground. We're talking pretty much Florida up to the modern Canadian border. The Great Lakes.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

Through to the Mississippi with a bunch of people that harbor grudges, people like the man who will become president, President Jackson. You know, men who've been abused, men who have behold grudges, men looking for an opportunity and men with a big huge hinterland to disappear into. You know, what's to say that these people wouldn't have, wouldn't have headed. Headed over the Appalachians, headed elsewhere, headed, headed south and, and west and develop strongholds far from the British government's grip. You know, the British government, what is it? It manning forts all the way. Britain has a tiny army. In peacetime it's just not separate and it's not. The British state is not set up and British taxpayers are certainly not set up to pay for this kind of monstrous military establishment that be required. It's Britain, to be honest with you guys. Britain struggles to garrison Ireland in this period. Ireland is a fraction of the size.

[Don Wildman]

It's a be careful what you ask for situation where you have this British army. They basically their strategy was this has to crumble very easily because we don't even have the desire and the wherewithal to do what needs to happen after the fact to secure this land. They would have had to have an entirely different strategy to do this.

[Dan Snow]

I think Britain would have had to become a very different state and some of the Opponents of the war were saying this. There's no way to really maintain the British parliamentary tradition, the way in which the Crown gets money from people. There's almost no way to retain that. If you have to transform yourself into a sort of military superpower with hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground in a distant place like North America, I mean, it's challenging for the whole British way of life. Back home in the uk it was.

[Don Wildman]

Based on the belief why in the world would they not want to be British?

[Dan Snow]

Yes, that's right. The whole thing, that early British Empire was sort of held together by the assumption that everyone wanted to be English. You know, why would you not want to be? You're protected by the freedoms of Magna Carta. It's great, it's great business. So Britain doesn't have a tradition other than in, for example, so Britain in Ireland has to impose its rule by force. Britain and the Highlands of Scotland. And that comes close to exhausting the British army in the Highlands of Scotland, which is very thinly populated. It's tiny by American standards. Britain fights a complex counterinsurgency and it burns crops and it removes cattle and it rounds up troublemakers and sends them abroad. It fights an old school insurgency and that's a big effort for the Brits. So the idea you're going to do it across the whole of eastern North America is crazy.

[Don Wildman]

Jonathan. There would have been vast punishment. We can only imagine. I mean it's the Nuremberg trials of the colonial times. Washington would have hung right.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well, so this is the interesting piece because Dan mentioned the vast experience that the British have had with attempting to subdue protectorates. And this is a thing that every revolutionary was aware of. They were very aware of what had happened to the Jacobites in Scotland. They are incredibly aware of, of Ireland. In fact, that is one of the reasons for pushing for more representation in Parliament because they firmly believe the British are trying to turn us into Ireland. It wasn't so much, hey, they're trying to tax us. It's literally they're going to turn us into Ireland. It will be a possession. We will have no representation. They will force us to, to maintain an army that we have to pay for to subdue ourselves. And so this, this is very. Every, every part of this is, is drilled into these guys minds. So when you have people not just taking up arms, but looking down a musket at a British soldier or leading troops against the Union Jack, their colors, their own colors, this is what they're thinking of. When they are signing the Declaration of Independence, you know, Benjamin Franklin, the great, somewhat humorous quote, but also very real. Gentlemen, we must all hang together, else we shall surely hang separately. That they are very aware of that. And as the British prosecute the war in North America, they are going to immediately begin with a hard war. We talked about Howe's lean, you know, some people talk about William Howe's leniency in the New York campaign. Remember this is also. They've already burnt by, by the end of 1775, they've already burnt Charlestown in Massachusetts, they've burnt Falmouth now Portland, Maine, they have torched communities up and down the coast. This is not an easy, an easy, oh, we'll win the hearts and minds back. This is they. They meet, they go in hard from the, from the outset and that is how they prosecute the war.

[Dan Snow]

In 70 46, seven in Highlands they are. The British army is savage and ringleaders are rounded up and executed. Lord Lovett, the old fox, is the last man to be beheaded with a sword on Tower Hill in London, in the Tower of London. So I think it's true. Anyone who puts their name on that Declaration of Independence, that little, that traitorous document, Yeah, I think they would have probably faced treason charges and I guess senior senior commanders as well, and probably.

[Don Wildman]

Hard labor camps, et cetera.

[Dan Snow]

Yes. And then as you see with whether it's in the, some of the wars of the 17th century and indeed in the Scottish uprising I've mentioned, you see people put on ships and sent elsewhere. So the British are happy and have done in quite large numbers. There are many, many people alive today who are the descendants of indentured labourers who were sent to the, what is now the U.S. but Canada and the U.S. for example, as, as defeated when they were defeated in the Scottish army at Dunbar in the 17th century, for example, you can trace that group of prisoners all the way off to the American colonies and you can imagine those Americans being sent a long way from home to very difficult places. The other thing, and there's a more recent example as well, which is the French settlers were uprooted from what is now New Brunswick and dispersed aground across North America. So the British state can be pretty tough.

[Don Wildman]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Don Wildman]

So it's not as simple as to say, well, we'd be Canada today, that's all there is to it. No, there would have been an enormous spasm of violence. A huge amount of prisoners would be taken. They would have remade the land, basically. Had to.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. And there would have been perhaps part of that victory. The royal governor of Virginia, for example, said any self emancipated, formerly enslaved people. So African Americans, who, if you can get away from your plantation, your servitude, and if you can join our colors, you'll be free. So there have been huge, huge issues around slavery and around the legacies of those kind of promises the British government had made.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah, well, they would have actually had to hold to those because most of those were not done out of an idea of, oh, we should abolish slavery. It was, let's undercut our enemies strengths for sure.

[Dan Snow]

For sure.

[Jonathan Bratton]

And so that would have forced a reckoning, that would have been a potential for even more violence. And we must remember that the revolution comes out of a spate of violence of the British being unable to control the western frontier of the Americas in Pontiac's Rebellion 1763-1766. This is where so many of those grievances come about. And simply because of being unable to control violence. We can only imagine what would have happened if you had the frontier going up in absolute flames with everybody moving west.

[Dan Snow]

Yes, yeah, exactly. Everyone moving west. And I think basically the British government had broken itself winning this war. They are going to look to make the American lands pay for that. Oh, absolutely, in one way or another.

[Don Wildman]

And that shows up in the domestic life as well. I mean, never mind your military leaderships, those guys are going to be hanging. But as far as the average American colonist, they're going to be paying through their nose for this stuff. I mean, whatever the tax is before this, it's going to be worse.

[Dan Snow]

I think there's no question. This is the classic what if? We have absolutely no idea, Jonathan.

[Don Wildman]

It begs the speculation, if we lost, could there have been another effort to launch a new War, would we have tried again?

[Jonathan Bratton]

It's not even a counterfactual because we.

[Don Wildman]

Did the War of 1812.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah. If you look at how the Treaty of Paris ends up and also the split of the massive movement of peoples Loyalists, we forget about this. We forget that Nova Scotia, that New Brunswick was once just Nova Scotia. It had to split into two colonies in 1783, 84, simply because the population of the area quadrupled in size because of Loyalists coming from the southern colonies. These are going to be individuals who in a generation are going to be defending their homes against their old neighbors in New York, in upstate what is now Ohio, Michigan, areas like this. So you have essentially with the Treaty of Paris, you have the British almost, as Dan sort of alluded, winning the war because they come out of it incredibly strong and they immediately reinforce their success by establishing excellent trade relations with America, thereby undercutting the alliance, the American alliance with the French causing all this dissension inside the country. America's economy is absolutely trashed. It is going to take a very long time to bring that out. And you still have the British occupying the forts along, along the frontier, really preventing a lot of settlement. So I don't even know that it's a hypothetical. So many people call the war of 1812 the second war for independence. And this is also a war that is fought by a divided country. New England sits that war out they go, yeah, we don't want to fight. So essentially that war is fought by. By the middle colonies and specifically the southern colonies, the western colonies, those who want more expansion. And we see that it is really, you know, if you were to look at it in a cold light of day, it is. It is a sort of draw. America definitely benefits from the fact that Britain has to focus on Napoleon and another world war. So if we look at. Could they have recovered? Yes, I think they could have. Especially if you look. If we are still considering that Napoleon is. The French Revolution will happen. Napoleon will rise. But of course, if the American Revolution fails, is there a French Revolution?

[Don Wildman]

Exactly. I think that's a big subplot is, you know, what's the counterfactual on the French Revolution happening if they haven't bankrupted themselves fighting the American Revolution. It's amazing. One of the episodes that's really important about the Treaty of Paris is the gaining of so much land as a result, leading up to not including the Louisiana Purchase, which comes in 1803. But as a result of the treaty that stops this war, the American land mass goes all the way to the Mississippi River. It begs the question of what happens for the British if they'd won. And here we are. They never get that Louisiana Purchase from the French or it comes to them some other way entirely.

[Dan Snow]

So, no, I mean, I. Listen, this is. We're now entering the Dan Snow fever dream territory where we all live in one joyful, happy family from the Rio Grande up to. Up to Hudson Bay and across to Canterbury in Kent. What's not to like about that? And if. And if Henry V had washed his goddamn hands during. During a siege, that country would extend all the way to southern France as well. But, yeah, no, I think there's a world where, yeah, British North America, Canada, and what is now the US End up as a huge colonial possession. But I think, like the Canadians in the 19th century, pretty early on, we're like, okay, I think we're done here, guys. What the American colonists are saying through the 1760s, 1770s, we don't need you anymore. Like, they're saying that the Brits don't quite hear that, but I think that would have happened. Even if you win the American Revolutionary War, you've still got very sophisticated societies. You've got world cities like Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Montreal, with publishing traditions and memories of freedoms as guaranteed by Magna Carta and all their English tradition. Eventually, they're going to say again, hey, guys, by the way, we don't need you anymore. We can do this nicely or we can do this, but at some stages. Look at Canada. Canada is a slow process of just breaking away until the point we've reached now where the ties between us are kind of notional.

[Don Wildman]

Did the British believe in Manifest Destin? Was that their idea?

[Dan Snow]

Well, that was. Jonathan will correct me here, but I mean, this is part of the problem. This. One of the disagreements is you've got people in. If you're in Virginia or you are in, you know, western Pennsylvania, you're like, I believe in Manifest Destiny because I want lands, treasure. If you're in Britain, that just looks like a headache. In fact, this is. This is the so true of the British empire in the 19th century. Colonial actors on the frontier, the ones driving the empire, there's no plan in Whitehall. Yeah, the foreigners are like, oh, my God, look at these crazy missionaries trying to convert Africans. What are these idiots doing?

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

But then one of those missionaries gets himself killed. The tabloid media goes bonkers, and the poor, you know, this minister goes, all right, we'll send the redcoats to some place I've never even heard of.

[Don Wildman]

So That's a purely American idea.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Well, I know, I'm sure it's a British tradition. I mean, what Dan's describing is exactly the same thing that's happening in the US in the 19th century as well. The United States government inherits the British headache of the American people. That's, that is the biggest problem. And immediately the first thing that, that becomes a problem is that western frontier which remains a problem. The American, the US government is equally, you know, as soon as it inherits the problems of the ministerial forces of how do we keep the peace between native peoples and our settlers who just will not stop causing trouble. Yeah, those are our first few wars. But we have. This is great comment from a British Official in the 1840s in the Oregon Territory who says you Americans don't need an army, you just have settlers. One night they're not there, the next day they've completely occupied a valley. They have a newspaper, they have a mill. They're essentially, they formed a government. We can't do anything. Yeah. And this I think would be the problem if Britain continued ruling in North America, in the United States portion of North America is this problem of how do you keep people from flooding west. So the same problem that the Americans had and the same problem that will confront the British again in the 1840s.

[Dan Snow]

And the Spanish have in Mexico. Right. Texas and Mexico.

[Don Wildman]

But it's quite possible that all those future states actually become nations of their own. I mean Texas tried to and was for a bit, you could say the same could happen with New Mexico and all that California area. And of course the Native American populations could have organized themselves if indeed the American government wasn't there with the pressures that they brought. If the British were a little more light handed about it all, all of that could be a whole different world out there of geography.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. The Comanche, I mean, it's just, it's.

[Don Wildman]

That'S the wonderful thing about trading with the Apaches.

[Dan Snow]

Right?

[Jonathan Bratton]

Yeah.

[Dan Snow]

It's the thing about history. I mean these, the modern world just looks so, you know, it's impossible to imagine a world today without that big old line. That border from the Great Lakes out to Vancouver island looks so solid and it's always there on the maps we've grown up with. Yeah. But that's just, that's just luck. Yeah. There are a thousand differences, a thousand different ways, a million different ways that could have worked out. And that's what's so incredible.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Especially if you look at how great power competition used territory in this age. Who we might have been traded. The British might have traded the United States to the French or Spanish for, you know, a piece of India or a piece of Africa or some other part of the scramble for better terrain out there. That's exactly one of the things that happened, you know, after the colonists captured lerberg in the 1740s, then the Crown gave it back to the French and all the New Englanders were all pissed off because they said, we organized this, we demonstrated our proficiency at fighting, and then you just gave this away. And yeah, I could imagine portions of the present day United States being traded off to another power for some advantage elsewhere. And so you might have some very strange configurations. And I think, as Dan says, it's absolutely fascinating to consider that, yes, there could have been sort of an Indian portion, as in the nation of India traded, hey, we're going to give you Maryland in exchange for this portion or trade rights or what have you.

[Don Wildman]

The big takeaway here, I think more of a philosophical one, is how much of an engine of American identity is the idea that we rebelled and we won without that core experience and at that central mythology, perhaps. I mean, well, it's a fact, but I mean, it really builds into the American character. This idea that we are always fighting against the odds that was unlikely that we were here in the first place. And yet here we are and watch us. That whole bold endeavor is central to the idea of being American.

[Jonathan Bratton]

It is, but it's also so confusing. We call this the American Revolution. And so many historians and commenters, and sociologists, political scientists have said that's not a revolution. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. It is, it is sort of a rebellion, but it is, it is a revolution in sort of this political idea of self governance. And honestly, it is almost. I don't want to say that it creates a culture where the United States is always at odds with others. We are at odds with our ideas of ourself. I mean, that is embodied in the Declaration of Independence. I mean, we have this opening statement that is just this absolute crazy, this nonsense of the 18th century of all men are created equal and are endowed by certain inalienable, with certain inalienable rights. That's mad. No, that's, that's, that's crazy. You know, that's going to launch millions of people over the next few centuries for a drive for self determination. People who, you know, the United States will end up fighting. Such as, you know, looking at Mao in China, looking at Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam, Cuba, this is. We. We are going. We're sowing the seeds of our future adversaries. But in that, I think there's this paradox in the American statement of the American Revolution, that is we are constantly in motion. It is a revolution, as in. It is. It is a constant revolving. What does it mean? What is. What does all men mean? What rights. What does that mean? What are the definitions of these things that we so blithely. Well, not really blithely, as we talked about. They could have paid with, put their necks. And we're fully prepared to. What do those things mean? And this is that great American paradox where we. We need there to be a rebellion or, or a fight against striving against something. There's a great historian in the Korean War who makes a statement in the opening book, at the opening of the book that says Americans cannot go to war unless there is a crusade involved. There has to be this greater idea, which is interesting when you look at 1775, because the idea is we're not sure. And 1776 gives you the idea, and that's shaped. And I, and many scholars, much smarter scholars than myself, would argue that the American Revolution is an ongoing event. It is an ongoing process as we figure out exactly who we are, where we fit into these revolutionary ideals and where to go for the future.

[Don Wildman]

It's the American experiment, the control of which is we could have been British.

[Dan Snow]

You could have been British and it's your last, guys. I mean, cricket is one of the great joys and you're missing out on that. Well, and, and all that. And all that protection you use for your American football is just embarrassing.

[Don Wildman]

Well, thankfully we all came back together in the end.

[Dan Snow]

Well, we did. But, but the hot take, my hot take is that we should listen to Ben Franklin. Move the capital of this joint British and American project, smash into New York, big imperial capital, rebuild it all as a transatlantic state where they actually think about how this could work. You cannot run America once it becomes bigger and more populous and richer than the home country. You cannot think you're going to run it all from Westminster. Doesn't work, guys. Doesn't work.

[Don Wildman]

Move the capital west, the empire of Transatlantia.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. Stick King George in New York and maybe, maybe give this a go.

[Don Wildman]

My great guest today as has been on three episodes now, Major Jonathan T. Bratton, an engineer, officer and historian. It's been a great honor to talk to you, Jonathan. I hope this is not the last time.

[Jonathan Bratton]

I hope not. This has been an absolute pleasure and a honor to be able to debate and have conjecture about what the future might have looked like.

[Don Wildman]

And of course, Dan Snow, star of Dan Snow's history hit.

[Dan Snow]

I'm also the only person on my podcast, so yes, I am the star.

[Don Wildman]

Thank you gentlemen.

[Dan Snow]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Bratton]

Thank you.

[Don Wildman]

Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American History hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Hey prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon music app today.

[Richard Karn]

Sam.