Revolutionary War: When Was the Turning Point?

Summary

American History Hit: "Revolutionary War: When Was the Turning Point?"

Release Date: July 3, 2025

In this enthralling episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves deep into the pivotal moments of the American Revolutionary War, striving to pinpoint the exact turning point that shifted the balance in favor of the Continental Army. Joined by fellow historian Dan Snow and military historian Major Jonathan Bratton, the trio navigates through strategic maneuvers, key battles, and international alliances that collectively forged the path to American independence.

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Setting the Stage: The Struggle for Empire

The episode commences with a comprehensive overview of the Revolutionary War's timeline, highlighting the complex interplay between American revolutionaries and the formidable British Empire.

Don Wildman [02:34]:

"The battles of Lexington and Concord officially signaled the beginning of the Revolutionary War, but it wasn't until the Siege of Yorktown in 1781 that the outcome became undeniable."

Dan Snow [06:07]:

"The British were fighting for empire, aiming to extend their reach from the Ohio Valley to India. In contrast, the Americans were fighting to avoid taxation without representation and to secure their rights."

Jonathan Bratton contributes by emphasizing the British perspective:

"The British viewed the war as a means to manage the costly aftermath of the Seven Years' War and maintain control over their expansive North American colonies."

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Strategic Advantages and Challenges

A central theme of the discussion revolves around the strategic advantages held by both sides and the inherent challenges they faced.

Dan Snow [08:50]:

"America's biggest advantage was the Atlantic Ocean, serving as a natural barrier that delayed British reinforcements and supplies."

However, Don Wildman counters by highlighting the difficulties of the American terrain:

"The landscape in America was unforgiving, with marshes, bogs, and dense forests that swallowed up armies and made traditional European tactics less effective."

The trio examines the British logistical nightmares:

"Britain struggled with maintaining long supply lines across the Atlantic, compounded by insufficient troop numbers. They couldn't afford to occupy every rebellious town, leading to strategic overextensions."

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Key Battles: Siege of Boston to Saratoga

The discussion transitions to analyzing pivotal battles that served as critical junctures in the war.

Richard Karn [13:24]:

"The Siege of Boston from April 1775 to March 1776 was the first major turning point, where colonial forces successfully besieged British troops, forcing their evacuation."

Dan Snow [16:00]:

"George Washington's strategic genius was evident when he orchestrated the placement of artillery on Dorchester Heights, effectively forcing the British to retreat from Boston."

Moving forward to the Battle of Saratoga, the trio underscores its significance:

"Saratoga was arguably the most decisive victory for the Americans, demonstrating their resilience and securing crucial French support."

Jonathan Bratton [29:44]:

"The British plan at Saratoga was overly ambitious and poorly executed. Their failure to coordinate three-pronged attacks resulted in a devastating defeat, signaling to the world that the American cause was viable."

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The Declaration of Independence: A Catalyst for Unity

A pivotal moment in the discussion is the adoption of the Declaration of Independence and its profound impact on both morale and international perception.

Dan Snow [24:07]:

"The Declaration wasn't just a statement; it was a strategic piece of propaganda that unified the colonies and clarified their purpose, making alliances and support more attainable."

Don Wildman [27:10]:

"By declaring independence, the Americans drew a clear line: you are either with us or against us. This stark division galvanized support and solidified the revolutionary cause."

The trio discusses the broader implications of the Declaration:

"It wasn't just a document for Americans but a beacon that attracted foreign allies, particularly France, who saw an opportunity to weaken their age-old rival, Britain."

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Foreign Alliances: France and Spain Enter the Fray

The involvement of foreign powers played a crucial role in the war's outcome, and the hosts delve into the dynamics of these alliances.

Dan Snow [33:24]:

"The victory at Saratoga was instrumental in securing French support, which brought not only troops but also naval power essential for the final victory at Yorktown."

Don Wildman [34:39]:

"Spain's entry into the war, although less direct, added another front against the British, further stretching their already depleted resources."

The discussion highlights the strategic importance of French naval intervention:

"At Yorktown, the French fleet under Admiral de Grasse prevented British reinforcements, effectively trapping Cornwallis and sealing the British defeat."

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The Climactic Siege of Yorktown

The episode crescendos with an in-depth analysis of the Siege of Yorktown, the war's decisive battle.

Don Wildman [43:08]:

"The British found themselves sandwiched between the American and French forces, with no escape route as the French Navy dominated the Chesapeake Bay."

Dan Snow [44:06]:

"Washington's collaboration with French commanders Rochambeau and de Grasse was unprecedented, showcasing a unified and coordinated assault that the British couldn't counter."

Dan Snow [47:05]:

"Yorktown was not just a military victory but a psychological blow to the British, demonstrating that the American cause, bolstered by foreign alliances, was unstoppable."

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Consequences and Reflections

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on the broader implications of the war's outcome and the elusive realization of victory by the colonists.

Dan Snow [53:20]:

"The realization of victory didn't fully dawn on the colonists until the Treaty of Paris in 1783. Battles like Saratoga were clear indicators, but complete victory was only confirmed with the official end of the war."

Don Wildman [55:09]:

"The Treaty of Paris not only granted independence but also expanded American territory far beyond the original 13 colonies, setting the stage for future expansion and challenges."

Richard Karn [49:47]:

"It's intriguing how the Americans celebrate the Declaration of Independence but often overlook the Treaty of Paris, which formalized their hard-won freedom."

The episode concludes by pondering the fragility of early American unity and the war's lasting legacy:

"Despite winning the war, the new nation faced internal divisions and external threats, laying the groundwork for the resilient yet complex United States we know today."

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Conclusion: Identifying the Turning Point

While multiple battles and strategic shifts contributed to the American victory, Dan Snow suggests that the culmination of events leading to Yorktown marked the definitive turning point.

"Saratoga and Yorktown, bolstered by French alliances, were the moments when victory became a certainty for the Americans. These battles not only crippled British efforts but also solidified international support, ensuring the fledgling nation's survival and growth."

Don Wildman [55:47]:

"Yorktown was the culmination of strategic brilliance, alliances, and the indomitable American spirit. It transformed a rebellious faction into a recognized and independent nation."

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Join Us Next Time: In the following episode, the trio will explore the intriguing "what-ifs" of history—pondering what might have transpired had the British emerged victorious in the Revolutionary War. Tune in to American History Hit for more captivating explorations of the past that continue to shape the United States today.

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Transcript

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[Richard Karn]

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[Richard Karn]

On the morning of September 17, 1781, a drummer boy beats parley as a British officer appears on the parapet of the British lines at Yorktown. Tied to the end of his sword, a white handkerchief. The officer is blindfolded and brought behind American lines to secure terms of surrender for the 8,000 British soldiers and seamen trapped by the larger Franco American forces. Six years after the battles of Lexington and Concord officially signaled the beginning of the Revolutionary War, the unthinkable has happened. British General Lord Cornwallis has sought a ceasefire. I'm Don Wildman, and today I am joined by fellow podcast host Dan Snow and engineer officer and army historian Major Jonathan Bratton to explore the defeat of the British. When did it become clear that the Continental army would reign victorious? In the beginning, it seemed unlikely. A colonial outpost of just 2.5 million people facing off against the greatest military power on the planet at the time. And yet, in 1783, after eight and a half years of fighting, two years after the surrender at Yorktown, the British and Americans signed the Treaty of Paris and the American Revolution was over. The British army was defeated and America had independence. So when was the turning point? Well, in this special crossover of American history hit and Dan Snow's history hit, we're diving headlong into the key moments of the revolution, trying to find the exact moment when rebel victory became inevitable. Dan Snow is here to give us the British perspective and on the side of the Star Spangled Banner. Well, Jonathan Bratton. Hello, gentlemen.

[Don Wildman]

How you doing? Good to be on the podcast.

[Dan Snow]

Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. Wish I could be there in person.

[Richard Karn]

Take your positions. My job today is to keep you men at a friendly distance here. Before we get into the nitty gritty, lets give a quick overview from 1775 until 1783. After a hundred years of colonialization and almost 20 years of unrest, revolutionaries from 13 of Britain's north American colonies were at war with their British rulers. The war began in skirmishes, with the first shots fired at Lexington and Concord in April 1775. The Revolutionary forces were rudimentary, mostly using guerrilla tactics against the more organized forces of the British military. In the summer of 1776, July 4, the colonies declare independence from the British, giving their forces a much needed boost. Finally, the tables start to turn in favor of the Continental army, the Americans. With the battles of Trenton and Saratoga, the Americans are further galvanized. In 1778 when the French enter the fight with them, and when Spain and the Dutch declare war against the British. Now, rather than just trying to subdue a rebellion in the colonies, the British find themselves in a global war. Finally, in October 1781, with victory at Yorktown, peace is in sight. For the Americans, the war was brutal. Both sides had moments of brilliance and disaster. But were the colonies always destined to win? Gentlemen, give me an overview of what's at stake for both sides here. What are they fighting for? Jonathan, you first.

[Dan Snow]

So they're fighting for empire. They're fighting for, essentially, the British, and remember, they're all British at this time, are fighting for this idea that the British Empire will extend to what is now Pittsburgh, to the Forks of the Ohio, it will extend to Canada, it will extend to the rest of the Sugar Islands, and of course, throughout the whole war, it will extend to India. But this. The idea is that you are fighting for empire. You can boil it down from a colonial, provincial perspective that they are fighting for a variety of reasons. Everything from a religious idea that, you know, those evil papists got to go to the idea that they'd like to have a little bit of peace and quiet on their frontier. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, what you've got is you are. You're fighting a war for empire, as historian Fred Anderson called it.

[Richard Karn]

What are the Americans fighting for, Dan, from a British perspective?

[Don Wildman]

Well, I guess we think they are fighting to avoid paying any tax, avoid paying their fair share. The Seven Years War, the French Indian wars, cost a vast amount of money. That war was fought, started by the Americans, I should say. Young George Washington strolls into the Forks of the Ohio, strolls into the Pennsylvania backcountry, and inadvertently starts a global war. So that war is being fought to protect these British colonies, to ensure that they're freed from French and indigenous enemies. And they don't want to pay their fair share. So I guess, but for me, really, it's a war about dealing with the messy endings of the previous war. Now, we've heard with that in the 20th century, they might think about the Second World War and how it grows out of the first. You might think about the Vietnam, in a way, grows out of the Second World War as well. That's the nature of these things. Britain ends up with this massive, unexpected, very expensive, enormous North American empire stretches from. From really Florida up to Hudson Bay. And they've got to work out what to do, who's going to run it, who's going to Pay for it, who's going to control it. And one element, don't you think, Jonathan, is actually this war is also about who gets to enjoy the benefits of that new big empire. People in Virginia, people in Pennsylvania, people in the lower colonies, they're saying, hang on, we think we should be not just extending up to the forkest Ohio, we should be going even further. We want the land to the Mississippi and maybe even beyond. And actually the Brits are saying, no, no, no, no, no. This is not going to be just a free for all from our American colonies. We're going to take a more direct, you know, so this is an argument over the shape of this massive and unexpected gift, but it turns out to be a very, very poison gift that's landed in the British Empire's map.

[Richard Karn]

So I mentioned at the top, resources are obviously very different, outgunned and outmanned. Thank you Hamilton for making that phrase very common. One advantage that colonials have is, is home turf. Are they going to be able to use that, Jonathan, Is that really such an advantage?

[Dan Snow]

Well, the biggest advantage, it's the Atlantic Ocean that's America's biggest advantage always. And Dan can sit there and say, well, you know, the Atlantic Ocean is just a great surface to convey. The Royal Navy and the ships of the fleet and his Majesty's forces will, will crush the upright. No, it's a, it's a phenomenal barrier. That means that anything that happens in the colonies, one, the information is going to take three weeks to a month or two to get back cross the ocean. So the information war that can be fought in the colonies because from the purposes of these nascent Americans, these rebelling individuals trying to convey this idea of what on earth are we fighting for and why you should fight with us is probably more important than what we are going to do to the British. Because first, in order to actually have anything to fight the British with, you actually have to have united colonies. And if there's anyone who's more fractious, prior to 1775, I mean, I guess Parliament, but also it's the 13American colonies. I mean they just cannot get along at all. And so first, so you have to have that. And then also anything that happens, it means that if the British are going to have to ship massive amounts of supplies across this ocean, so this long supply line, this long line of communication, that's absolutely vital. So when we talk about home turf for the Americans and it's less the land now, I will say that the British officer perspective in North America to Quote, a British officer who lands in 1755, I believe, and looks at the Ohio country and says, I cannot conceive how war is made in such country. That's probably a lot of the British perspective, but the terrain is going to be difficult for both sides.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, yeah. And learning from Jonathan for the first time that occasionally these US States don't get on very well. I'm surprised to hear that. Fractious, you say? That's. That's exciting news. One to watch, maybe. I think you're totally right. The Atlantic Ocean's a big disadvantage. The landscape, it just swallows up armies. It breaks armies. It's. There's. There's far more water and marsh and bog and rock and trees than there are in the. The cockpit of war where the British army's used to fighting in France and northern France and Belgium. But I also think that get the same problem you do in maybe Vietnam, when this superpower goes a long way away, it is able. When the enemy's standing in front of them, they're able to fight and often destroy them. It's when the enemy's not standing in front of them, it's when they just drift back. There's this. They're fighting communities. There are people that turn up, pick up a musket and just make life incredibly difficult for the British army across all of the. It's just hard to hold down vast amounts of terrain, no matter how big your army is.

[Richard Karn]

Well, you're talking about the guerrilla tactics which all every American student is raised to honor. Working with what you have, you know, and they learned it from the Native Americans, all these sort of mythology things that we learned.

[Dan Snow]

Definitely mythology, yes, definitely mythology. Tons of mythology.

[Richard Karn]

And yet it's the way things work at the battles of Lexington and Concord. But we, you know, lose these battles right through to the middle of the war. So at first everyone has at hand is working out pretty well for the British. Things are going to go pretty well for them for a long time in.

[Don Wildman]

This war, I guess. So I guess the big problem the British army is not as big as it needs to be. The British have bet the farm since the 17th century or, you know, maybe even before on having a big navy.

[Dan Snow]

Right.

[Don Wildman]

Britain's an island. You. You think, well, we can protect our homeland and we can start to enjoy the opportunities of global trade and maybe even some colonies in the rest of the world by keeping a big navy. So the idea of running a big navy and a big army at the same time. So. So Prussia has an army around 300,000 strong at this point. And Prussia is stretches, I don't know, from what is today Maine down to maybe D.C. the Chesapeake. That's just a small portion of these colonies. And Prussia has an army of 300,000 men. Britain has an army of like 50,000 men at this point. A lot of them are in Ireland, which is itself in a near rebellious state most of the time. So actually, yeah, on paper Britain's got lots of troops, but doesn't have anything like the amount of troops you'd need to go town by town and stick a little union flag up the flagpole and leave a bunch of guys there to. And then move on to the next place you know, that is that requires massive manpower. So. So yeah, Britain's got an advantage straight away, but British people hope, the Brit planners hope that what they can do is just put the Navy up and down the east coast, blockade all these places like Charleston and Rhoda and Providence and New York and Boston. And then the provincials just are reminded of their loyalty to the British crown and decide to. But if that doesn't happen, Britain does have a problem. You got to put boots on the ground. You got to put a lot of.

[Richard Karn]

First turning point siege of Boston April 1775 to March 1776 following their victory at Lexington and Concord, the British troops are garrisoned in Boston. The colonial troops besieged them for 11 months. Jonathan, what are the revolutionary forces tactics during that siege?

[Dan Snow]

Well, it's try to use small blows to make a statement. Wherever you can remember, Washington's working with an army that is under critical shortages. You know, Dan talks about the shortages of manpower for the Crown forces. Washington's facing the same thing. He can't even keep track of where his troops are day to day because half of them go home to tend their crops. Because this idea of serving in a long standing army, a thing we've been taught is very, very bad. It's part of our British tradition. That's another reason why the British army is not ever going to be large is because I guess you guys had some problems with a king using the army for bad things. I don't know, some guy Cromwell came along as some small, small history there, but this is very much a thing that is inherited by the Americans. There's not this idea that, yes, we're going to have long serving armies. You mentioned Lexington and Concord earlier as an idea, as an example of success and also Boston. Well, the problem here is that it's a false measure of success. Lexington and Concord is a one in a Hundred thousand chances that you get that exact scenario happening precisely where it did. You have Massachusetts being prepared more than any other colony to be able to fight this type of war. And then that ability, people just think, oh, we can duplicate that anywhere. Well, no, you can't duplicate a culture of 150 years of independent mindedness and military tradition. And then the other piece is that, yes, Washington is dealing with an army that's got about 13 rounds per man and the siege of Boston. So you have to make little raids here and there, but ultimately Washington would love a large scale assault to seize Boston, which is simply not practicable. His commanders tell him, hey, boss, you do this, you're going to stack up bodies like cordwood and it's going to be Henry Knox bringing over the artillery over the Berkshire mountains, through those horrible swamps, awful terrain in the dead of winter to place artillery over on Dorchester Heights overlooking Boston. And so Washington gets a win, but it's not the win that he wants because no one respects a siege win. People respect the bloody battle, the pitched battle, the outmaneuvering your enemy, forcing them to flee ingloriously before you. And that's not what he gets. And so he has to now think about, how do I fight this war at the next battle, New York, what happens?

[Richard Karn]

I've always wondered what happens when they leave? Do the British go back and say, okay, so that didn't work out very well. We need to reconnoiter here and that's gonna lead to a lot of ships in New York Harbor.

[Don Wildman]

That's right. And you know, Jonathan's being very modest here. I don't wanna do his job for him, but I mean, Washington, I think, does brilliantly here. And they chase the British, they humiliate the British right at the beginning of the war. This is just shocking. Britain's poured reinforcements into this town to bring Massachusetts back to a state of subjugation to the Crown law. And here they are, the people of Massachusetts and other New Englanders, and led by a man from Virginia, George Washington, they have strangled Boston. They forced the Brits to leave because of the shadow of the big cannon overhanging the city. Loyalists have left with them. The conditions were tough. Like, the British army's kind of starving. It's desperately rounding up cows. Everyone's laughing at it. This is just, this is brutal. And so, yeah, they head off to Halifax and then they think, you know, we need to go somewhere. We think there's plenty of Loyalists in New York. We like the harbor in New York. It's a much better. It's a much more sustainable place. It's easy to get food and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, they end up sending a big old fleet to New York harbour and this is where I think if we want to play this game, I think the Brits come nearest achieving a pretty good result this campaign. They could have. Well, I'm sure we'll get onto it, but I think this is the bit where I think the Brits are let down by their leaders in this bit, but I'm sure we'll talk about that.

[Richard Karn]

So these are warning signs. Do you think the British were spooked at all at this point, Dan?

[Don Wildman]

I think the British definitely spooked and in fact British commanders are writing home going, we got a. We got a serious problem out here. The locals do not want us here. And it's not just a band of troublemakers. It is very widespread feeling. We've kind of, we've lost control of the hinterland. We lost control. So, you know, we can control a port or two. We know we can't actually, we can't. We've lost control the countryside and we. And you need a huge manpower to get this back. And the politicians are like, pull yourselves together. It's a bunch of farmers.

[Richard Karn]

Yeah. They have demonstrated that the colonials have a certain will and determination to do what they want to do here. We have strengthened the authority of that institution, that Congress that is so controversial, suddenly congeals, gets some authority behind it and George Washington has emerged. They have a central leader. This is not good for the British.

[Don Wildman]

No, this is not good. The Americans are on their way to building a state, on their way to building an army and a marine Corps and a navy. I mean this is, this is bad news. This is not just a provincial rebellion.

[Richard Karn]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Richard Karn]

Hi, I'm Richard Karn and you may have seen me on TV talking about the world's number one expandable garden hose. Well, the brand new pocket hose Copperhead with Pocket Pivot is here and it's total game changer. Old fashioned hoses get kinks and creases at the spigot, but the Copperhead's pocket pivot swivels 360 degrees for full water flow and freedom to water with ease all around your home. When you're all done, this rust proof anti burst hose shrinks back down to pocket size for effortless handling and tidy storage. Plus your super light and ultra durable pocket hose. Copperhead is backed with a 10 year warranty. What could be better than that? I'll tell you what an exciting exclusive.

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[Richard Karn]

But this is also a paper lion in many ways, right, Jonathan? I mean, Bunker Hill was not a win. Lexington Concord was one. In the retreat, you know, that's where they did the damage.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, Lexington Concord is a great win. What are you talking about? This is utterly pulverizing an entire punitive expedition, driving it back, fleeing again to its ranks in Lexington Bunker Hill, you know it's a British victory that's a clear win. Right. You know, taken some ground at the cost of 10% of the officers in the British army. But, you know, it's pretty catastrophic fighting. That shows, I think it shows that the war is going to be long and it's going to be bloody and you're not going to get a quick victory by parading troops through towns in order to show the might of the British Empire. I think we're also forgetting we're being very Boston or New England or east coast centric. Remember, America has also just done a thing in Quebec. The American army in the fall of 1775 launches a two pronged invasion of Canada that seizes Montreal. And but for, you know, a very untimely whiff of grapeshot that blows Richard Montgomery into little bits outside the walls of Quebec City might have even taken Quebec City as well. And then you would be left with the situation of what on earth do you do with this 14th colony and how do you defend Canada? I think honestly it's probably good that the colonials are forced out of Canada in the spring of 1776 because otherwise you're just pouring more and more troops into this sort of black hole a little bit akin to what the British will do in The South Post 1778. Yeah, so there's a lot going on in the theater and it's showing that, hey, yeah, this is a ragtag. But they all just mounted an invasion that had a general Guy Carlton fleeing for his life up to Quebec City from Montreal. And now the British are not only have to contend with, hey, how do we put down this, this rebellious colonies in New England, but how do we get one of our own colon our loyal colonies back?

[Richard Karn]

Yeah, but then they'd build a little fleet and chase Benedict Arnold down Lake Champlain sinking his boat.

[Dan Snow]

Benedict Arnold stings right back with his little fleet that he built out of nothing but some hopes and dreams in Massachuset with sailors.

[Richard Karn]

All right, we're going to launch over vast territory here to July 1776, the Declaration of Independence. A hugely pivotal moment in the school textbooks and in the media. We have this kind of image of all the founding fathers standing together, lit by candlelight, gathered around a piece of parchment. As you know, the whole image wasn't really this way at all, was it, Jonathan?

[Dan Snow]

No, I mean it was very public. For one thing. If you're going to have a rebellion, you got to do some specific things in public and very openly takes place. And as with every, every good, you know, Constitutional Convention, Philadelphia, stupidly hot Declaration planning, Philadelphia, stupidly hot. I just can imagine that all these rooms stank to high heaven of all these perspiring would be politicians. But the, I think the critical piece of the Declaration is how rapidly it is disseminated after they wrangle over what it's going to be. And it is, there's a lot of wrangling. There's, there's. Jefferson originally has a piece in there. You know, if you look at the grievances of, of, of the colonies to the Crown, which is what the Declaration really is, hey, here's the why of what we're doing. They're saying, hey, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this. We don't like it. We feel like our rights are being trampled. And then there's contentions, as I said, you know, the colonies are going to fight each other. So there's a bit in there about, hey, the British are forcing the slave trade upon us. And South Carolina is like, wait a minute, hang on. No, take that one out and that one will, we'll revisit that in 1861. But the. So after all that is ironed out and then it is pushed out rapidly to the Continental army, to the army itself, to. There are readings of the Declaration of Independence in New York City, where Washington has it read to the Continental army there at Fort Ticonderoga on Mount Independence. At all these critical places where the troops are, it is explained to native allies. It is this mass effort to cause an information win that is something that I don't think the British foresaw was how this was going to be used to turn the narrative against, against specifically the Crown.

[Richard Karn]

George iii, this one, this is treason. This is an act of treason.

[Don Wildman]

Don, you're done, right? It's treason. And we're still upset about it. Poor George III comes up. I mean, the list of grievances against George III in the Declaration of Independence is deranged. But anyway, we don't have to dwell on that. But I think, you know, and Jonathan mentions what's going on in New York. At the same time, there's this campaign in New York that I'm super interested. This is almost my key moment of the American Revolutionary War. And the British commanders in New York are a little bit hesitant, a little bit cautious. George Washington gets a little bit lucky maybe once or twice for the weather, and you get the so called, you know, the miracle of when they managed to evacuate troops from Long island, they managed to evacuate troops from Manhattan. And each time The Brits just keep failing to kind of put Washington in the bag. Just get that army, capture it, destroy it. Now, I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference, but it could have. If you lose the main field army of the rebellion, of the revolution, of this young, now young republic, then maybe that would have made a difference. So there's a moment here, I think, where the Brits could have pulled it off. But like I say, these, these British commanders, they're a little bit flat footed.

[Richard Karn]

Yeah, right. So, Jonathan, the final statement on the Declaration, it basically is a piece of propaganda is a negative word, but I mean, it is that kind of thing, and people don't really take that into consideration, how important it was to get the message out, not only externally to foreign powers, but also internally.

[Dan Snow]

Well, and it's also, it gives a purpose for the war because, remember, I say this a lot, but the action, the events of April, May 1775, and even in June, you know, all the way up through the Olive branch petition, where the, where Congress says, hey, King George, you know, we could, I don't know, maybe come to an agreement, patch these things up. All of this is not, no, there is no widespread movement saying, oh, yes, we are going to be a united and independent American entity. And that is what the Declaration is doing. It is taking this thing that was probably so far outside people's minds in April of 1775 and making it a reality rapidly. That is one, really just one year and a few months from, from the beginning of hostilities to a full movement for independence. And yes, it shores up one side. It also creates a very firm dividing line down the middle. Either you are for independence or you are not. And if you're not for independence, you are with the enemy. We talk a lot about the sort of numbers involved on who was Loyalist, who is patriot, et cetera, et cetera. I also don't like those terms because I'm pretty sure all the loyalists love them themselves as very good, patriotic Britons. But really you've got about 30% of the population going for independence, 30% loyalists, and 30 to 40% wholly in the middle, just trying to survive. Which is why you have these British commanders who are so frustrated when they go into a town and everyone pulls out a Union Jack and says, yay, George iii. And then they go, all right, cool, we've got this space. And then they march on. And then those people will immediately sell supplies to the rebels or, or send drafts off to the Continental army or support the militia. And you've Got everyone from Cornwallis to Burgoyne to Sir Henry Clinton to Howe, who packs it up in 1777, 1778, he's just like, I'm sick of this. I'm going home. All these British commanders who can't actually grasp the problem on the ground, which is that it is very difficult to defeat an idea and a popular will. It's very easy to defeat an army which. How does Burgoyne and Clinton and Cornwallis all defeat. Tactically defeat rebel forces, sure, but it doesn't matter.

[Richard Karn]

Well, within the year following the Declaration of Independence does not go well for the Continental army, with the exception of perhaps the Battle of Princeton. There's a lot of nooks and crannies there. But we head towards the middle of 1777 and the battle of Saratoga, which I think is fair to say is the next huge pivotal point when things could have gone a lot differently than they did. Dan, we have talked many times about Saratoga. It is a complex event. But what are the headlines of this?

[Don Wildman]

The headlines are that the plan was very, very complex. As you say now, it was hugely ambitious, probably overly ambitious. But then again, there are examples in North America, whether it's in 1760, in the. In the French Indian War, or whether it's, as Jonathan talks about in the American assault on Montreal in 1775. There are examples of big bodies of men moving across this very difficult landscape and all getting to the right place at the right time. This is not one of those examples. So the Brits, they have this smart idea, which is they're going to maybe try and just to divide, just create a firewall. These troublesome. The New England is the real problem here. And the middle colonies, the southern colonies, they may be a little more Tory, they may be a little more relaxed about the idea of the British Empire. There is perhaps some truth in that idea. And they thought, what we need to do is just build a wall between these two groups. So we've got. Well, let's get a force moving down from Canada, advancing south towards Albany, down that great invasion corridor that seen so many armies marching to and fro over the. Over the decades. We'll get an army marching from Lake Ontario east towards Albany. So that's another prong coming in from Lake Ontario, coming towards Albany. And then we get a force moving up from New York, where we've captured New York and parts of New Jersey. So they come due north up the Hudson Valley. And so from three different directions, we kind of arrive at Albany and we cut off New England from The rest of the colonies. The problem is none of those forces do what they're supposed to, and none of them arrive at the right time. And none of the commanders do what.

[Richard Karn]

They'Re supposed to because of bad leadership.

[Don Wildman]

A little bit of bad legit, a little bit of just logistics. In the 8th century, tough boots fall apart, everyone gets sick, lot of food. And then bit of resistance by the Americans. I'm not doing them down here. So what is supposed to be a three way attack ends up with one force coming down from Canada and finding itself completely outnumbered at the end of a hideous supply route, dealing with far too many defenders outside Albany at a place called Saratoga. And the Brits know they're in big trouble.

[Richard Karn]

Yeah, this is the first big surrender, right? Of any kind of.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, it is. Thanks, Don. It is.

[Dan Snow]

It's a great own goal.

[Don Wildman]

It's a great own goal.

[Dan Snow]

It's a great own goal because it's the British. You know, it's Whitehall's job to oversee a cohesive war plan. And the problem is they approve every plan that they're given, including the one where, how in New York says, oh, actually, I'm not marching north, I'm marching south to Philadelphia. Burgoyne knows this, everyone knows this. And Burgoyne goes, yep, okay, I'll meet you in Albany. A and B are not leading to C. They're. They're doing A to F to Z. And it's. I honestly have massive sympathy for these poor British troops because they're doomed from the start by one of the most colossally poor oversights of planning on the British perspective. Don't approve all the plans. Don't leave it up to commanders to choose their own adventure, if you will. When it comes to strategy making gives.

[Richard Karn]

A great showcase for the crazy Benedict Arnold to run around on his horse getting shot.

[Don Wildman]

He is. He's impressive at this point, but I think it. And once we've got this battle at Saratoga, again, you see this problem for the Brits, that, yes, they do tend to perform better in battles in the American Revolutionary War. But when the Americans are well led, when they are supplied, and particularly when they have the advantages of ground or defensive, they can fire musket volleys that are as vicious as anything the British will come up against in Europe. And so you can't assume as the British army that you are just going to grind forward and disperse this group of amateurs. And actually, I think at Saratoga, the Brits find themselves repelled by very impressive American infantry tactics. And so that is to their credit as well.

[Richard Karn]

Jonathan, the upshot of this really is the French getting interested in joining this war. It's not a done deal, but this could be an advantage for them backing this army. Right?

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, it's Saratoga, but then it's also the survival of Washington's army following Brandywine. You know, he goes from a defeated Brandywine on the defensive to a tactical defeat in Germantown where he's on the offensive. This is an army mounting an offensive after a defeat. That is resilience, and not just in surviving these battles and then forcing what Germantown does. It forces Howe to keep his army inside Philadelphia. He can no longer move around the countryside. It's a thing that I think we, we. We don't see a lot when we look at just strict wins and losses. The French see a captured army in, in New York, then they see a penned up army in Pennsylvania and they're going, okay, you guys are demonstrating enough that you have, you have the French crown, who very much have a policy of. We don't really want to get heavily involved, but we would really love to bleed our traditional enemy as dry as possible. Possible.

[Richard Karn]

Was this just vengeance for the French and Indian War?

[Dan Snow]

Just French and Indian War. Dan, do you want to talk about how long.

[Don Wildman]

Listen, Don, I don't know if you know about this little bit we got going on on this island of ours, but we got these neighbors called the French. And it goes. It goes back a fair way, actually. So. Yeah, no, but then 66 and all that.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, well, exactly.

[Don Wildman]

So there's been. Look, particularly since 1688, 1689, the Brits and the French have fought some, I follow some historians who call it the second Hundred Years War. You get the Nine Years War, you get the War of Spanish Succession, you get the War of Austrian Succession, you get the French in new war, the Seven Years War. You get the American Revolutionary War, then you get the French Revolutionary War, then you get the Napoleon War and it ends. And it's really a battle in some ways for kind of global hegemony. Yeah.

[Richard Karn]

Can we just get to World War I again?

[Don Wildman]

Exactly. Well, then we're buddies again and it ends. I need not tell you. British cavalry watering their horses in the Seine and the Duke of Wellington bedding Napoleon's mistress. But anyway, but it is. This is just part of this century long struggle. And it goes on in India and it goes on in the Caribbean. It goes on. So the French are looking to take on the Brits. Wherever the Brits show weakness. They'll fight the Brits in Ireland. They'll fight the Brits in India, they'll fight the Brits in West Africa. But at this time, it looks like the Brits are in a whole world of trouble on the east coast of America. And the French are happy to send.

[Richard Karn]

Muskets and they're gonna bankrupt themselves doing it.

[Don Wildman]

That is a problem for later. They will bankrupt themselves.

[Richard Karn]

But you mentioned the Spanish, Jonathan. They get involved. Most Americans don't even know about that.

[Dan Snow]

They get involved. I mean, it's not to the same extent as, as the French. The, the Spanish have lost very heavily. They are going to eventually enter the war after France on the condition of the famous Spanish. Condition always is we want Gibraltar back. You know, they're not going to get it. Spain's contribution to the war is rocky. They demonstrate that they are still a great, a part of the great power competition. They are still part of this great game, as it will later be called. But they don't demonstrate that they have this political will to openly support the Americans other than beyond sending some, some arms, a little bit of money, and then a small expedition through, through Florida and modern day Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana. And so what you, what you really have with Spain is, it's another fleet, the addition of Spain's fleet into the war. And then also the Dutch. And the Dutch come in heavily with money. The Dutch are floating massive loans to the Americans which they'll be nice enough to, to, to sort of overlook the fact that we absolutely screw them on the back end and don't pay anybody back. But this is, again, these are items for the future. But for, from the British perspective, you now have, I think, probably what no one in Britain wanted in 1775, which is all of a sudden you have a world war again. You just had a world war. You, you're trying to figure out how to pay for the last one. Because, you know, William Pitt wrote a blank check to the colonies to do whatever they wanted and they took him at his word and they did. And now here we are with massive British debt and another war.

[Don Wildman]

And the worst thing about a world war is you're fighting without allies. And Winston Churchill said the only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting without allies. And so this is for all that, my fellow Brits. And we like to talk about the British Empire, we like to about great British military successes. Nearly all of them have been achieved. The big important ones have been achieved as part of coalitions. Big, big coalitions. That's been Britain's secret sauce. And now the most unsuccessful war in British History is the American Revolutionary War when it's fighting absolutely on its own, Right?

[Richard Karn]

I'll be back with more American history after this short break.

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[Richard Karn]

So we're moving on from the Declaration of Independence as a pivotal moment which really demonstrated the resilience of the colonists willing to fight through failure. I'm hearing from you, Saratoga is probably the biggest, pivotal moment. We'll have to make this decision at the end, but definitely a huge moment of pivot when not only have the Americans won the battle, but also they've brought in foreign powers to fight them. They've made allies. So let's again move forward towards the end here, towards Yorktown with French support and money. It feels very much that by 1781, victory for the Americans is in the cards. Our final turning point comes with the last showdown. Yorktown is under siege from September to October 1781. Washington's regiments joined by 4,500 French soldiers under the Marquis de Lafayette, up to 17,000 on land. Yorktown is under siege from September to October 1781. Washington'S regiments are joined by 4,500 French soldiers Under the Marquis de Lafayette. That makes a total of 17,000 on land. Faced off against 8,000 Brits. French Admiral Francois Joseph de Grasse and his fleet are in the Chesapeake, preventing the escape of Cornwallis and the British army and reinforcement by the British Navy. On September 5, the French take a victory over a British fleet in the Battle of Chesapeake. And it's clear Cornwallis's troops have no chance of escape or reinforcement. Troops suffer from disease, dwindling supplies, and casualties. On October 17, the drummer and officer signal surrender. Negotiations take place on the 18th, and the official surrender ceremony occurs on the 19th. Cornwallis does not attend, citing illness. So British Brigadier General Charles o' Hara surrenders to Washington's second in command, Major General Benjamin Lincoln, by handing him his sword. This is such a pivotal battle in the revolution. Dan, what state are things in for the British at the time of Yorktown?

[Don Wildman]

Well, it's just this. It's this old problem, which is the British army can move around America sometimes carried by ships, this overwhelming maritime strength. Other times they'll march. They'll march up through the Carolinas into Virginia. But the problem is that every time they go somewhere and they liberate somewhere or they get the union flags out, as Jonathan says, and the crowds all come out and say, okay, fine, King George, we're back. The minute they leave town, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam or like the Taliban, I guess, in Afghanistan, the patriots, the rebels, just drift back in and reassert their control. So you end up with marching this big distance of British armies march all the way into this part of Virginia, and they haven't got anything to show for it. What they then try and do is they do whatever British. They do exactly what British armies have always done. They just look towards the coast and be like, where the hell's the Navy? We need the navy here. So. And they do that. They get Yorktowns on the coast and they build a.

[Richard Karn]

And they're not gonna get the navy because of the French.

[Don Wildman]

Well, this is the killer fact, Don. This is an absolute disaster. So they've built this fort and they settled down. Normal. Normal service resumed. Here we are on the coast. We get the Navy bringing supplies in, food, more powder and shot and reinforcements. Then the unimaginable happens. I mean, this is very difficult for me to talk about, really, but the French Navy turn up in an astonishing and lucky and skillful and remarkable bit of coordination that crosses two continents. And several months. The French Navy turn up in force. There's an inconclusive battle off in the Chesapeake Bay. The British retreat afterwards to go and repair their ships. So it's actually defeat for the British. And for the, you know, this astonishing new experience for the Brits, they find themselves sandwiched between an Emmy force, the Americans and the French, who are besieging them in Yorktown, and a French fleet out at sea. And the Brits do not like this situation.

[Richard Karn]

Jonathan, tell me about the American side of things. At this point. Washington is. What is his aims, his strategic goals?

[Dan Snow]

So he's trying to coordinate with this. You know, he's trying to take advantage of this new alliance, the 1778 Treaty of Alliance and Amity with France to be able to make a joint. A joint combined attack. What he would really love to do, in his heart of hearts, is seize New York, get that festering insult away from him, get this thing that he's been carrying around with him, the loss of New York, I think really, really, really feels. And there's been attempts to coordinate continental forces with the French army and Navy. You've got an attempt in Savannah that ends terribly. You've got an attempt in. In Rhode island that doesn't end well. You have a lot of failure. And I think that's important to emphasize is you have a lot of failure, a lot of disappointment and a lot of mistrust building on both sides. From the American side, I don't know if we can trust these guys to show up when we need them. And from the French side is. I don't know if we can trust these guys to fight when we show up. There's. So there's. There's a lot of tension that is going into this relationship, which makes 1781 that much more impressive. What the Americans are dealing with fundamentally, is honestly a gift which is that in 1778, the British turn to the South. They. They say, we're writing off the main colonies. We're writing off doing that. We'll do some stuff there. We'll keep our main forces in New York, but we are going to attempt a Southern strategy. We are going to win the American South. We will. We will have a limited victory. We will keep the south, the more lucrative colonies. And you know, those dumb rebels, they. In the north, they're intractable and they're poor and cheap anyway. Those dumb Yankees, we can live without them. And this is a gift because this is where British manpower is pouring into. And they're able to combat this with a relatively. The Continentals and the militia, the state troops are able to combat this with a relatively low number of troops. So by 1781, this. This weird assortment of Continentals and militia in the Carolinas have essentially caused Cornwallis to give up in frustration, to throw his hands up and say, I. I've beaten you everywhere. In every battle I pursue you. I keep having to cross rivers and I'm running out of boats and my men are destroyed. My horses are starving. I have to go refit in Yorktown, where he even attempt. Before that, he attempts to destroy a force of about 4,000 under Lafayette, which eventually ends up pinning him on the Virginia peninsula. And so it's this incredible combination of British strategic mishap, I would say, or unable to read the situation properly, and this unparalleled moment in space and time where you get Washington, Rochambeau and de Gras able to actually come, and the Comte d' Estaing able to come to the table and say, yes, we are going to attempt this. To move across an entire multiple theaters of war to converge in one space and time. Most of the troops for the. I think a lot of people don't understand most of the Continental and French troops, almost all of them, for the siege of Yorktown began in New Hampshire, Rhode island and New York.

[Richard Karn]

Yeah, right.

[Dan Snow]

There's only a couple thousand under Lafayette that have been sort of scrapping it out in Virginia. And so this is just this incredible feat to concentrate rapidly at that right moment, as Dan said, at this moment, where the British are going, oh, wait, we don't have naval superiority. What is that? I mean, that's like telling the American army today that, hey, you have to fight without air superiority.

[Richard Karn]

Right.

[Dan Snow]

That. That causes everything in my body to clinch up, and this would want to hide in a little hole.

[Richard Karn]

Dan, could they have come back after Yorktown, do you think? The British? Yeah.

[Don Wildman]

No, no, no. Yorktown was a catastrophe. Another army, a second entire army surrenders just utterly, something like 8,000 men. It would involve raising another army to send. And I think people had, they'd worked out that these armies, it wasn't like, oh, we were doing so well before the army got captured. It's just stalemate at best. You're fighting a global war that the Spanish are, you know, the other interests around the world you want to defend. And the British have no option. You know, the British, British credit is under attack. The British government is, you know, Britain is still, you know, it's not a dictatorship. The British government is very shaky at this point, that Parliament are doubting the strategy. So Lord north, who's the prime minister, his grip on power will soon come to an end. We're gonna have three prime ministers in one year after this, if you can believe that, which we only have in the gravest of crises like a couple of years ago. And so Yorktown is a symptom of just a gigantic failure to come to terms with how to pay for how to bring the Americans back to their obedience. And in a way, Yorktown puts the Brits out of their misery because it's so decisive that they just go, look, we can't do this.

[Richard Karn]

It's really a statement on how overextended they were.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, we haven't got the men. We haven't. We can't send another army. So we can keep this going and sit in New York and sort of just exchange potshots with the Americans, or we can just cut this Gordy knot, we can cut off this diseased limb and we can get back doing what we want to do, which is defend our valuable sugar producing islands in the Caribbean from the French, defend our possessions in India, defend our possession, you know, Gibraltar, all those kind of things. And yep, it's super sad. We, you know, the Brits, they've secured Canada. So, you know, maybe they just, maybe they lose the 13 colonies. You got the lumber, they got the lumber in Canada. You know what's the best that's going to happen? Those little 13 colonies and maple syrup. Well, you tell me. Exactly. And beaver skin hats. Oh, yeah. You know, I'm sure those little 13 colonies, they'll never come to an end. They'll find they'll squabble amongst themselves. They'll be back. They'll be back.

[Richard Karn]

Surprisingly, sporadic fighting does continue after this. There's a couple years here until this treaty of Paris is signed. Jonathan, it seems interesting to me as Americans, we celebrate the 4th of July, the Declaration of Independence, but we don't really celebrate the Treaty of Paris. It's weird, isn't it? 3rd of September.

[Dan Snow]

I mean, it's weird only from the perspective of actually asking Americans to look with a realistic light upon their own history. What's more popular? Oh, well, we manifested our own destiny into existence. To borrow a phrase that will come later on in American politics. But this idea that, oh well, we, we did it on our own, we willed it to happen. It's like Lexington and Concord. It was the embattled farmer who stood up and made this happen. No, it was fought as all American wars are always fought and won, which is with allies, which is very difficult for us to admit. It is fought by a mixture of professional forces and part time forces. Today we'd have the regular army, Army Reserve and Army National Guard. And it's fought by drafting individuals. So by, by the end, the Continental army is drafting people. It is forced service. Right, because that is how you keep armies in the field and how you win wars. All of this doesn't make for really good hand clapping. You know, yay, America feelings. And so, yes, we celebrate the July 4th because otherwise we would have to say, yeah, we owe our independence probably mostly to France.

[Richard Karn]

We are very good storytellers, very good at building our own mythology to this day. As a matter of fact, fact, Dan, on this side of things, what's the. There's a whole empire to build. I mean, you got plenty of work going on over here.

[Don Wildman]

Speaking of stories, this is the strange thing about the American Revolutionary War. It's the most disastrous war in British history. And what happens over the next 40 years is one of the most gigantic expansions of British power in the history of the world. It's very weird. So there's an industrial revolution happening in Britain which will give it huge advantages going into the 19th century. So its economy is absolutely, it's on fire. It's going through one of the most important events in human history, this industrial revolution. It starts in little old England. And so although the loss of America is a catastrophe, and although there's a world in which Britain, North America go on being one great big imperial state and maybe fused together as a nation state at some state in the future. That's a very interesting world, but it's not the one we live in. But what does happen is chaos in Britain. Political chaos, huge existential crisis. What are we doing here? We've got no money. It's a disaster. But under the surface there's enormous dynamism and excitement going on with Britain's economy. Amazing things are happening. And then France totally implodes. French Revolution happens, as you pointed out, often to a large extent because of the vast amount of money they spend in the American Revolutionary War, and then the money they spend after that still trying to catch up with the British fleet. And so Britain is drawn into this enormous war in Europe. These enormous wars in Europe, perhaps a little bit like World War II in the US and sort of lifting the Americans out of the remains of the Depression. Those actually, although they're very tough wars and some very tough years, and those wars, they prove to have a kind of galvanizing effect on Britain. Britain ends up conquering other colonies around the world, like southern Africa and extends its possessions in. In India. So Britain, it's. It's strange, it's a disaster. But it doesn't seem to halt the trajectory of Britain into what will become a great global empire.

[Richard Karn]

There it goes. Works out pretty well for them. So we've done a whirlwind tour of the biggest pivotal moments of this war. There were many, many in between. But, Jonathan, I think it's fair to say. Well, I'll leave this to you. What do you, as an American think was the pivotal moment when the colonials imagined that they'd won this war? When did it happen? When did things turn as to when.

[Dan Snow]

They imagined they won the war? I don't know if they actually do imagine it until 1783. Washington himself is in disbelief that there will be any end to the host. I mean, he is up. He is ready for the assault on New York. Up until the point where the British troops leave in 1783, there's this intense idea that the war cannot surely be over, that they could not have actually done that. This from a, you know, stepping back, a geopolitical perspective, highly unpopular. When we want to look at the patriotic idea of the revolution. I mean, I do think that when Britain loses the war is 1778, when it. When it admits that it cannot control the northern, most populous, most rebellious colonies, and that that is where they. They lose their way, so to speak. I mean, they give up. They essentially say, we are willing to achieve a very limited victory or a limited loss. Not unlike Vietnam, where Dan was talking about how the British Empire massively expands following this huge loss. Following Vietnam, the United States sees itself as the victor of the Cold War, sees itself coming out as the lone superpower. And then, of course, there's the big question that I think Britain also had in the 18, mid-1800s is what do you do when you're the lone superpower and how do you use that power? Those are for future podcasts. But I, I don't think that there's a simple answer. I would like to say it was Saratoga. That would be the easy answer. But I honestly don't think for the colonists themselves, I don't think that there was a time when they knew that they had won until it was actually.

[Don Wildman]

Done and then they didn't know how big they'd won. Because the Brits make a really extraordinary decision, which is that they don't just give these 13, 13 colonies this independence or they don't agree accept the 13 colonies independence. They give them a whole ton of territory that the Americans didn't even know they were asking for.

[Richard Karn]

Right.

[Don Wildman]

And that is maybe a different podcast, but they give them the whole of the Midwest, right? The whole the Mississippi, Ohio valleys. So these 13 colonies we talk about, suddenly it is the eastern chunk of what is now the U.S. so overnight, the peace treaty is as big a victory for the Americans as any of these ones we've discussed.

[Dan Snow]

Although it's almost a Trojan horse, too, because in it lies the seeds of the near destruction of this new republic that is going to get, you know, sort it out with a constitution. But prior to that, you've got to imagine the Brits sitting back there going, yeah, you thought it was real easy to govern. Yeah. Yeah, you try dealing with you.

[Richard Karn]

Thanks so much, Dan and Jonathan, for joining me. Next time we're going to explore what might have happened had the British won. Join us wherever you get your podcasts and you can get more history from Dan on his podcast, Dan Snow's History Hit. They cover everything from the ancient Egyptians to medieval kings and queens to Britain in the Second World War. You name it, they probably have an episode on it. See you next time.

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Our Skin Tells a Story. Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey or our cur curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin. You'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.