Jonathan Horn (3:57)

Thanks so much for having me.

Host (3:58)

Listeners may recall that Jonathan Orman was with us months back to discuss the life of Robert E. Lee. We are in a whole different time and place now, aren't we?

Jonathan Horn (4:07)

That's right. We're starting off in the, as you said, the late 19th century, when the United States moves into the Philippines in World War II.

Host (4:13)

So many listeners may be cloudy on where the Philippines even are in the world and why they were so key to American strategy in the Second World War. By the time of the war, the US had control over the nation for about 40 years, as I mentioned. Why did this matter in our grand scheme of global power at that time?

Jonathan Horn (4:31)

So the United States, as you said, came into the Philippines in 1898 during the Spanish American War. And there was a thought, there was a philosophy of the world that great powers required great navies and great navies required refueling bases and bases for their ships. And the Philippines became the key point for the United States in the Pacific after 1898 when the United States moved in. And it was actually Douglas MacArthur's father, a general named Arthur MacArthur, who led the very first American soldiers into the walled city of Manila and saw the American flag raised over the city. And of course, that war ended with the United States having a debate over what to do with the Philippines and ultimately President McKinley making the decision to annex the islands as a colony of the United States, which, of course, was a controversial decision for a country that itself was founded as breaking away from a mother country. But yes, we decided to go ahead and have a colony in the Pacific, and that was the Philippines.

Host (5:32)

When this advanced the US military frontier 7,000 miles across the Pacific Ocean, a statement unto itself right there, Manila is 1500 nautical miles from Japan, 5000 from Hawaii, 7000 from the United States. It is out there, a crucial base, as you say, for power in the Pacific and eventually defending it against Japanese expansion. I was really surprised to learn that the two parties had agreed to a non aggression policy, that Japan would get Korea as a protectorate and leave the Philippines to the United States. How familiar with that are you?

Jonathan Horn (6:06)

What I would say is that we thought the Philippines, initially, after the Spanish American war, was going to be a way of projecting American power into the Pacific and maybe serving as a gateway to China. But as you said, exactly that. As strategists look at the archipelago in the years leading up to World War II, they realized that in the event of war with Japan, it was going to be very difficult to defend these islands. And reason is exactly what you said. It's just simple geography. The Japanese would be able to bring large numbers of troops to the Philippines before the United States could bring reinforcements across the world's largest ocean. And so it's actually Theodore Roosevelt, who initially is very keen on the idea of the Philippines being part of the United States, comes to realize that instead of serving as a protection for the United States and our interest in the Pacific, they're actually, as he puts it, are a heel of achilles. But Douglas MacArthur's father, Arthur MacArthur, teaches a very different lesson to his son. He says basically that the Philippines are the key position to America's future as a Pacific powerhouse. And that might have been true if the American people were willing to make the investments necessary in a large military. But as you know, the United States was not willing to bear those burdens in the years before World War II.

Host (7:18)

Well, it was the dichotomy of our foreign policy in terms of colonial possessions, or protectors, whatever you want to call them, has always been a thorn in our side. You know, as far as how to operate elsewhere other than our mainland. Anyway, it's all canceled out on December 7, 1941. The Philippines are part of the entire campaign as the Japanese hit us in Pearl harbor at the same time, over the next nine hours, all these other things are happening, including the takeover of the Philippines. Can you describe this day? It's pretty extraordinary.

Jonathan Horn (7:49)

It is extraordinary, and it's actually December 8, 1941, in the Philippines. For a simple reason of the international date Line, the Philippines is on the other side. So Pearl harbor really takes place on that day. And, and for reasons that are still very much debated, American bombers, the America's air force was basically caught on the ground at Clark Field by Japanese bombers coming from Taiwan. So that very first day, America's air power in the Philippines was really wiped out. Douglas MacArthur, who was in charge of the defense of the Philippines, for the United States had thrown out years of strategic thinking and replaced it with his own plan to defend the Philippines, with a plan to defend the coastlines of the islands. His Switzerland plan is he has this idea for training camps, and he's going to have a certain number of Philippine citizens pass through these training camps every year. And the event of war with Japan, he believes he'll be able to call out this army and he'll be able to offer finally a viable alternative to War Plan Orange, which was the retreat to Bataan. But some people point out very early on, first of all, that the Philippines is very different from Switzerland. This is an archipelago, these are islands, and it'll be very difficult to defend without naval forces. But basically he's built a conscript army of Philippine civilians. He's going to call them out, and his hope is he's going to defeat the Japanese at the beaches. But that doesn't happen when the Japanese make their main landing on December 22, 1941, at Lingayen Gulf. The big thing that happens is that this conscript army, through no fault of their own, just simply does not have the training and does not have the supplies necessary to mount a defense against an experienced veteran army like the Japanese. It becomes very clear very early on that America's going to have to revert back to an older plan called War Plan Orange. Under that plan, instead of trying to defend the full Philippines, you're just going to retreat and hold two key positions. And these are the positions necessary just to hold the entrance to Manila Bay. And one is called the Bataan Peninsula, and the other is called Corregidor, which is a tadpole shaped island off the tip of Bataan. And of course, those names are echo into American history ever after.

Host (10:01)

For sure. This whole thing is about 105 days, a fateful battle that takes place from January 7 until April 9, 1942. In May 1942, Corregidor is defeated as well. This involves epic moments for the American military and American history, not least of which is the death march, the Bataan Death March, which results in enormous loss of life. Take us through sort of a sketch of those six months and how that unfolds, leading to eventually the defeat of Corregidor.

Jonathan Horn (10:34)

So, yes, exactly. Very quickly after the Japanese land, America reverts back to War Plan Orange. And the job of leading the retreat to Pathan falls to a general named General Jonathan Wainwright, who is essentially the highest ranking American field commander in the Philippines. He's junior only to Douglas MacArthur and this is a very difficult operation which he carries out, if you can believe it, with the help of the 26 Cavalry. These are Philippine Scouts, elite troops led by American officers, and they're fighting on horseback. So a war that ends with the atomic bomb begins with our very best troops in the Philippines as mounted warriors and horseback. And they do lead a very successful retreat to Bataan. But they do not find good conditions there when they get there. And if you go to Bataan, you can see why. It's a very thick, dense jungle. It's the sort of place that even veteran soldiers can completely lose their bearing. Someone incredibly, 1,000 Japanese troops are able to break through the main line of American resistance that they make across the width of the peninsula and just disappear into the jungle. But the main problem in Bataan is never the Japanese, really. It's disease being spread by mosquitoes. It's food shortages. Very quickly food becomes a problem. American forces, and by the way, I should say most of the troops on Bataan are Filipinos who are fighting under the American flag, have to go down to half rations and eventually they have to go down to quarter rations. That's about a thousand calories a day. That's not enough to live comfortably in bed all day, to say nothing of trying to fight in a foxhole. And under these circumstances, General Wainwright has to make the heart rending decision that the horses that I mentioned of the 26th Cavalry have one last terrible service to perform for his army and that is to serve as a source of food. So this is the end of the last great horse fighting unit in American history.

Host (12:24)

When do they lose Bataan? And therefore leading to the death march.

Jonathan Horn (12:29)

So as you said, Bataan surrenders on April 9, 1942. By this time, Douglas MacArthur has already been ordered out of the Philippines. He was seen as too important to go down with the ship. And he makes a daring escape with his family to Australia. And the surrender in Bataan, most people don't realize, is the largest surrender of American forces in history. This is a complete military disaster. This is nearly 80,000American forces, primarily Filipinos again. But they are fighting under the American flag, surrendering on Bataan. And once Bataan surrenders on April 9, very quickly it becomes clear that that tadpole shaped island of Corregidor, which is off the tip of Bataan, and that's where the Americans had their headquarters in the Philippines, cannot stand long. And it's very easy to see why. If you go to Bataan, the mountains of Bataan command the heights of Corregidor So the Japanese bring their big guns down to the tip of Bataan very quickly and put corregidor under 247 artillery assault. And that is where General Wainwright has his headquarters and will try to hold out for as long as he can. But of course the conditions are very terrible.

Host (13:38)

What was the point of the march? From where to where were they marching?

Jonathan Horn (13:42)

Well, so the Japanese, what happens after April 9, the surrender is the Japanese want to clear the Bataan peninsula of American and Filipino forces as quickly as they can to basically make room for their own operations against Corregidor. But they end up carrying out one of the great atrocities of the Pacific War by carrying out a force march of men who are already starving. These are Americans and Filipinos who are already been living, as I mentioned, on quarter rations. And they marched them without proper supplies, without water, without food. They're beating them along the way and they are trying to move them to a prison camp called Camp o'. Donnell. They march for dozens of miles. Those who make it are then put on trains which give deadly meaning to the term standing room only. Your crowded so tight. And if you make it to Camp o', Donnell, it's not like you're out of the woods. Because the conditions in Camp o' Donnell are just horrendous and basically cruelty. It becomes commonplace. And part of the reason is, and this is something that American commanders will discover is the Japanese themselves don't believe in the idea of surrender. And so they have no respect for those surrender. And that goes some distance to explain the cruel treatment that Americans receive.

Host (15:02)

So am I right to think that the numbers are about 75,000 US and Filipino troops marched around 65 miles to those camps or were transported to those camps. 7 to 10,000 die in this death march. Starved, shot, bayoneted. I mean, it's a terrifying experience.

Jonathan Horn (15:21)

Yeah, I mean, we have stories of people just describing making this march and begging to get water from springs that are being passed and not being allowed to do it. And basically people who were just collapsing on the side of the road and people drinking out of the same water that animals were defecating in. I mean, this is just cruelty. And it is one of the great atrocities of the Pacific War. And the Japanese commander afterward will claim that he basically delegated it to subordinates, but he is ultimately held responsible, responsible for it at a war crime tribunal and is put to death after World War II for not preventing these atrocities from having happened.

Host (16:03)

By May 42, as I mentioned, the US has lost any grip on the Philippines. MacArthur's gone. Wainwright is actually taken prisoner. They've surrendered the last bastion at Corregidor at the mouth of the Mandela Bay, and the Philippines are gone. You mentioned it counts as perhaps America's biggest loss, certainly in the war. Right. In terms of men and women, supplies and treasure.

Jonathan Horn (16:23)

Yeah. And just a word about General Wainwright's final stand, which is, you know, there was a possibility that Wainwright himself might have been able to escape. His command encompassed the full Philippine Islands, and there's a lower island called Mindanao. And if he had moved his command to Mindanao, he could have potentially hopped on a B17 the same way General MacArthur did and made it to Australia. But he makes this vow in his diary on April 2, 1942, when he can already foresee the fall of Bataan. And he says, there would be no other honorable course for me but to share the fate of my men and the fate of my garrison on Corregidor. And he holds to that vow even as the Japanese put corregidor under 24. 7 artillery assault. They're in this massive bomb shelter that's built into a mountain in Corregidor called the Malinta Tunnel. He holds that vow even as the walls are shaking and the water system breaks, the. And the lights go out in the tunnel. And he holds to that vow even when the Japanese begin making their landing on Corregidor. And he faces this terrible choice because he eventually will try to make a surrender of just Corregidor, but the Japanese will not accept the surrender unless he includes the full Philippine Islands, and he believes the Japanese will otherwise carry out a massacre of his garrison in the tunnel. This is more than 10,000 people, including female nurses and wounded soldiers who can't get out of their beds. And Wainwright faces this difficult decision because he knows MacArthur does not want the full Philippine Islands surrendered, but he does it to save the lives of those people in the garrison.

Host (17:59)

One of the unseen aspects of this, or at least for me anyway, that this has, is that it must empower the Japanese enormously to imagine that their foe, the United States, is ever going to come back to the point where they can actually fight a viable war across this great distance from the mainland. The loss of the Philippines when there had been such an extended battle proves that to them, I guess, that the Americans have been very weak in their planning and coordination.

Jonathan Horn (18:26)

Well, yeah, if you look at the situation just across early 1942, I mean, you look at the speed of the Japanese conquest of the Pacific very quickly. You look at Hong Kong Singapore for the British, the Dutch East Indies, Wake Island, Guam. It's actually only in the Philippines that the Japanese face really almost any resistance. That's where the Allied forces make their great stands. As you say, it's not that long of a stand, but it's their great stand. It's the only place during the spring of 1942 where Americans can find what they so desperately want back home. And that's evidence that we are fighting back in some way against the Japanese. And that fight has become synonymous with the name Douglas MacArthur. And I think that goes some distance to explaining why President Roosevelt and George Marshall in Washington, D.C. make the decision to order Douglas MacArthur to leave the Philippines. He's seen as a symbol of hope during this grim time. Too important to go down with the islands.

Host (19:27)

The other aspect of this is there's no coordination with the Allies, with the British specifically, who are very present in the Malaysia aspect, the Malay, they've turned Singapore into a fortress. All of that which is happening with the British, the United States chooses not to be a part of. Right?

Jonathan Horn (19:42)

Yeah. I mean, the speed of the Japanese conquest of the Pacific and you know, of course, Singapore falling for the British is one of the great disasters of the war, and it's sort of missed because we're so focused on the European battles. But Singapore falling, as you said, Singapore was seen as this impossible to conquer position for the British, and it falls because the Japanese are able to take it. And this is the great British surrender of the Pacific.

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Host (22:12)

The famous adage, of course, is I shall return. Douglas MacArthur says as he's leaving for Australia, which we've already mentioned. How does he plan to return? What campaign will be undertaken to do this?

Jonathan Horn (22:24)

Well, it's so interesting because when MacArthur reaches Australia, he says those famous words, I shall return. And he later says that he would never have agreed to accept the order to leave the Philippines in the first place because of course, this does look like the captain deserting the sinking ship unless he had been assured that he could return to the Philippines almost immediately to come to the relief and to prevent the surrender of the islands. Now, this is very hard to believe because Douglas MacArthur knew that the US Navy had no ability to break the blockade or very, very little ability to break the blockade the Japanese had formed around the islands. He should have known how few resources he was going to find in Australia and how much time it was going to be able to take to build up a force capable of making the return. But this is what he tells us. Sometimes people will say, why did he say I shall return instead of saying we shall return? Wouldn't it have been less egotistical? Well, yeah, it would have been a lot less egotistical, but it wouldn't have made a lot of sense because as we've been talking about here, American and Filipino forces were still fighting the Japanese at that time. So unless MacArthur was talking about himself and his family, because he really does make this daring escape with his four year old son and his wife, it wouldn't have made a lot of sense. So it does take some time to assemble the forces. And the journey back to the Philippines is a long one for Douglas MacArthur. Arthur and it goes through the islands of New guinea and it is a long way back. And in many cases he's also not just fighting the Japanese, but strategists in Washington who question the value of returning to the Philippines at all and wonder if he can't just bypass these islands and instead focus on what they think is the main goal of the war, defeating the Japanese. But that is never Douglas MacArthur's main goal. His main goal is always returning to the Philippines.

Host (24:16)

When he arrives in Australia, he was awarded the Medal of Honor. But this was largely for. For show, wasn't it? It was to counter the Japanese propaganda of him abandoning his troops.

Jonathan Horn (24:26)

That's exactly it. And even George Marshall, who basically makes the decision, he's the Chief of Staff of the army in Washington, admits that there are no real grounds for awarding Douglas MacArthur the Medal of Honor. This is our nation's highest military honor. It is reserved for feats of courage that are above and beyond the call of duty, usually at the risk of life, almost always at the risk of life. So often people don't even survive these feats. And this one is very unusual in history because it is really given to offset Japanese propaganda about the captain deserting.

Host (24:58)

The sinking ship, those remaining troops who were taken prisoner and then kept as prisoners of war, including Wainwright, those camps were elsewhere, right? They were not in the Philippines, they were in Taiwan and Manchuria.

Jonathan Horn (25:11)

Well, that's right for Wainwright. I mean, his experience was different because he was such a high ranking officer, but with the cruelty that she was treated, you can get a sense of how much worse the experience of lower ranking soldiers would have been. The Japanese move Wainwright from the Philippines, as you said, to various different prisons in Taiwan, and then all the way to Manchuria, where Wainwright will endure temperatures as low as negative 49 degrees. The Japanese engage in what Wainwright will describe as systematic starvation. I was able to use Wainwright's diary when I was writing my new book, and I was able to see Wainwright cataloging his weight. Basically just his body is falling apart. The Japanese beat him. This is a Lieutenant General of the United States being beaten by Japanese privates. By 1945, when he's in Manchuria, he doesn't think he's going to make it. You know, we think of 1945, and we think the war is almost over. You're almost there. But he was so cut off from the outside world that he had no idea that was the case. I think maybe perhaps the cruelest form of torture he faced was this isolation. And he was left to wonder whether Americans would understand the decision he had made to surrender for the sake of his men. And this really does haunt him throughout the war.

Host (26:25)

12,000Americans taken prisoner of war, 63,000 Filipinos, 8,000Americans and 26,000 Filipinos die. It's an extraordinarily ugly period of time and real atrocity, as you say. How much was this the motivation for committing to win the Philippines back? Or was it, I mean, you mentioned how MacArthur was fighting against his own army's tactics or his own leadership's tactics. Was the Philippines the major objective of our fight across the Pacific?

Jonathan Horn (26:55)

Well, you know, it's funny, because as you get closer and MacArthur is making progress, he's moving up the island of New guinea, he's getting closer to the Philippines. And even as you get into 1944, there are still some who believe we should bypass the Philippines and that they are not important to our return to Japan. But MacArthur never sees it this way. And part of it goes to his own personal bonds to the islands. These are the islands that his father played such a critical role in bringing into the American empire. As we talked about in the beginning, these are the islands where he considered his home, where his only son had been born. And these are the islands that he had been charged to defend on the eve of World War II, but had failed to do so. And so returning to the Philippines was always his major objective. And we have this message from George Marshall, 1944, when this was still being debated, and he's saying, we need to remember the major objective of this war. And, of course, this is 1944. There should be no need to clarify what that means. And yet Marshall feels the need to add a clause saying, which is defeating Japan, because that is never MacArthur's main objective. MacArthur's main objective is returning to the Philippines. He thinks America has been forced out of American soil at the point of a bayonet, and we have to return the same way. And we have a moral obligation, he believes, to the people of the Philippines, because, in a sense, we had failed the people of the Philippines. And, you know, there is a good argument to be making for what he is saying, of course.

Host (28:22)

Yeah, exactly. The early phases of the battle to win back the Philippines. Well, the guerrilla resistance has been going on all the way along, which is driven by the Filipino forces hidden. But there are, of course, submarines off the coast there. There are US Soldiers who are in the jungle fighting side by side with the Philippines. But then, of course, we land at the Battle of Leh, the largest naval battle in history for the United States, October 1944. How much is that a part of winning back the Philippines?

Jonathan Horn (28:53)

Well, it's a huge part, and Douglas MacArthur is largely a bystander for it because it is a naval battle. And essentially, it shows you the battle that happens there off Leyte is, in a sense, it shows you how important the Japanese think the Philippines are to them. They realize that if the Americans succeed in taking back the Philippines, they're going to cut off the Japanese from their empire to the south, and they're dependent on that for resources. It's one of the reasons they headed south, to expand their empire and risk starting a war with the United States in the first place. So they really do risk a huge amount in trying to destroy MacArthur's return to Leyte. But it ends up becoming, through some luck, by the way, because their plan almost succeeds in probably becoming the largest naval battle ever fought in history. And a massive Japanese defeat, though there were moments when it looked probable that America might suffer a terrible reverse at that moment. But through some luck, Americans do prevail in this battle, and it is the largest naval battle ever fought.

Host (29:51)

How are they actually won back? I mean, it takes years, as you're describing, for all these various, I guess, west to east or at least northwest efforts from Australia and so forth to get back to the Philippines. But how is the final battle won?

Jonathan Horn (30:07)

So MacArthur makes his famous landing in the Philippines in the fall of 1944. But that's not the end of his objective either. He needs to get back to the largest and most populated island of Luzon, where the city of Manila is, and he begins returning there in 1945. And by February 1945, his forces are reaching Manila. And this is. Has been the focal point of his return ever since leaving Manila. This is the city that he loves more than anything. And it's one of the cruel ironies of the war, that his return to Manila after all this, that he's gone through the fighting in the jungle, all the different landings, ends with the Japanese carrying out another one of the most terrible atrocities of World War II, and that is the destruction of the city of Manila. They will fight block by block. MacArthur thinks for some reason the Japanese will not fight for the city, but they do fight for the city, and they destroy anything they think could be of service to the American people as they fall back for their final stand in the city. And that includes, very sadly, the civilians of Manila who had always remained fairly loyal to the United States throughout this experience. And as a result, the Japanese take vengeance on them and carry out just unspeakable crimes. And It's. More than 100,000 civilians will die in this terrible battle for Manila, which really, when you look at the pictures, ends up, really, the city is flattened at the end of this terrible fight for the city of Manila.

Host (31:33)

What an extraordinary symbolism that MacArthur is able to bookend his entire journey with, I have returned. I mean, is this a fable, or was it really as clean a PR win for the United States and for Douglas MacArthur, as it seems.

Jonathan Horn (31:48)

Well, you know, it's certainly PR was part of it, and the PR, you can say it's about MacArthur's ego, but it did also give hope to the people of the Philippines. Those words, I shall return. You know, they had it smuggled on candy wrappers and cigarette boxes and sending them back to the people of the Philippines. And I think they did give people the Philippines hope. And, of course, it's never as clean as you think it is in the sense that, as you know, as we discussed, the battle leads to the destruction. Ultimately, once MacArthur moves to the largest island of Luzon, to the destruction of Manila, which is the city he loves and was called the Pearl of the Orient. This is one of the great cities of the world and is just flattened. So it is not. I wouldn't say anything's clean. In fact, it's one of the terrible ironies of the war. But MacArthur's vow, and the fact that he keeps that vow, is unique in history. I can't think of any other example of a general bending the path of an entire war on the strength of his words alone, the way MacArthur did.

Host (32:46)

Right. Well, it speaks to his family legacy, doesn't it? After the war, July 4, no coincidence there, July 4, 1946, the Philippines are made independent. MacArthur remains a hero in all of this. It really is an amazing journey. One downside of MacArthur is blocking the efforts to award Wainwright the Medal of Honor, 1942. Why did he do that?

Jonathan Horn (33:08)

You know, very shortly after, MacArthur receives his own Medal of Honor under very dubious grounds in 1942. This is after he's received word of the surrender of the Philippines and the Wainwright's decision to surrender for the sake of his men, really. George Marshall passes along a recommendation to Australia, to Douglas MacArthur, to also award a Medal of Honor to General Wainwright. And it's sort of a request that Marshall thinks MacArthur will have no objections to. But MacArthur turns out to have some objections, and he goes so far as to say that if Marshall proceeds with this award, he will have to come forward with the allegations that will damage Wainwright's reputation. I think what he's hinting is that he'll have to say that Wainwright was an alcoholic. I think, ultimately, when you look at this letter, this message that MacArthur sends, which is not a high point, I would say, in his career, I think what's really happening here is MacArthur is furious that General Wainwright has surrendered the full Philippines. And I told you, of course, Wainwright didn't want to do that. But the Japanese would not accept the surrender otherwise and would have massacred the more than 10,000 thousand people in his garrison. There's something else happening too. For Douglas MacArthur, the Medal of Honor always conjured images of his father during the Civil War. His father then had just been an 18 year old at the Battle of Missionary Ridge in Chattanooga. He had carried his regiment's flag up a ridge against pretty incredible odds and led his regiment to the top. And for Douglas MacArthur, that medal of Honor always conjured the image of carrying the flag to the top and the idea of it going to someone who had stayed to see the flag lowered at the sickening hour of surrender just seemed unacceptable, I think, to Douglas MacArthur, and that's one of the reasons he came out against it. But to get a sense of what it would have meant to General Wainwright to receive the Medal of Honor, to have word of what it meant to receive the Medal of Honor during those long years of captivity, it would have meant the world to him. And you can see it when you look through his diary, how worried he is about what Americans will think about this decision. And me personally, I think what General Wainwright did, staying with his men, someone was gonna have to surrender. This force, enduring the humiliation of surrender, it would have been easier at that moment to die, to be perfectly honest. And I think what he did was as brave as any soldier in American history, saying to see it lowered, the flag lowered, was just as brave as carrying an upper ridge.

Host (35:33)

Well, it's a fitting coda to end with the fact that after liberation, Truman awards Wainwright the Medal of honor in 1945, recognizing his leadership and personal sacrifice. Sacrifice. So amends were made. Jonathan Horn is a best selling author. Former White House presidential speechwriter during the George W. Bush administration. He is best known for his historical biographies including the man who Would Not Be Washington, Robert E. Lee's Civil War and His Decision that Changed American History and Washington's End the final years and forgotten struggle. Today we discussed his newest release, the Fate of the Generals MacArthur, Wainwright and the Epic Battle for the Philippines. Thanks again, Jonathan. It was great to see you again.

Jonathan Horn (36:14)

Thanks so much for having me back.

Host (36:20)

Thanks for listening to this episode of American History. Hit. As you've made it this far, why not like and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit. A podcast from history. Hit.