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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [00:21]
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- [01:01]
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- [01:34]
Don Wildman
It's the year 1805 here in Philadelphia, and we're approaching the Arch street meeting house of the Society of Friends. Red brick with cream trim. Looks a lot like the old State House a couple blocks away where the Declaration of Independence was signed. And it's brand new, just built. But that doesn't mean the door hinges won't be squeaking.
- [01:55]
Come on in here. Take a seat. So this is first day, what Friends call Sundays. It's a packed house. Lots of friends here in Philadelphia. The members are all dressed in typical grays and blacks and whites. They sit side by side on plain wood benches. Women and girls wearing bonnets. There's nothing on the walls. The whole idea is Plainness and utter simplicity in every regard. Worship is underway. An hour of silence, stillness, simplicity. In a million years, you'd never imagine that these people, this Society of Friends, so quiet and humble. Back when this movement was started in England in the mid-1600s, they were anything but. Those Friends were radicals, rabble rousers, and some so violently trembled and shook in the presence of the Lord, they earned themselves a nickname, the Quakers.
- [03:00]
Hello, all. Don Wildman here, host of American History, hit now in our third year and still going strong. All thanks to you, our listeners. Thank you for punching us up. Today's episode is a very personal one for me and for many. I know and love Friends and family. I was raised in the Quaker faith, a birthright member, we're called, of the Society of Friends. Born in Philadelphia, capital of American Quakerism, still today an active member of a monthly meeting here in New York State, where I reside. Today we will discuss the early history of Quakerism, a Christian movement born against the chaotic backdrop of 17th century England, out of the Reformation and the English Civil War. Then it was transported elsewhere in the world, various places, but especially to the shores of America, where it played a fundamental role in the founding of this country. It is a sweeping tale that we will explore with Dr. Erica Cannella, author of a new book, a Darker side of the Early Quakers, out just this year. Hello, Erica. Welcome. Greetings to thee.
- [04:05]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Hello. Thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with the.
- [04:12]
Don Wildman
This is an episode. This is a story that I've been on my producers to do for a long time, based largely on my own passions, of course, and interest in this history. But it really has, as I've started to peel back, the layers become even more fundamental than I thought to the founding of this country. So I really encourage people to listen closely to this. As I said earlier, these are the fundamental building blocks of a story that's much bigger than what we're able to tell today. So this is really good stuff here. Let's start really. Basically, what is Quakerism? It has nothing to do with oatmeal. Let's just establish that right from the.
- [04:47]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Get go, this is the public service that we are providing today is that the Quaker Oats has nothing to do with Quakers, but this is sort of. As a Quaker historian. Well, Quakers and oatmeal somehow, because of brilliant American marketing, have become synonymous with each other. When we think of Quakers, we think of that very charismatic looking man on the packaging of Quaker Oats with the very stylish hat. No Quaker Oats. And that sort of, that mascot really comes from quite brilliant 19th century American marketing.
- [05:26]
Don Wildman
Interesting.
- [05:27]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And so when I'm sort of telling people that Quaker Oats has nothing to do with Quakers, they're quite surprised. And I think for me, as a Quaker historian, what I find most surprising about this is that, you know, it's, it's the 1870s and this Ohio company, you know, they're, they're looking for a mascot for their brand of oatmeal. And so they're, you know, they're thinking like, you know what Quakers, they embody honesty, integrity, like, this is, these are the ideals we want to be aligned with. And, and so that's where sort of this comes from. But then if you rewind 200 years to the 1650s, well, my goodness, you wouldn't want Quakers to be a mascot for anything.
- [06:11]
Don Wildman
Yes, it's true.
- [06:12]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So the Quakers. So who were they? This is a great first question. Right, let's get started. Like, what are Quakers? What do they believe in Quakers? This is a radical religious movement that, as you said in that brilliant opening introduction, you know, it comes out of the British Civil Wars. You know, Quakers come out of a very traumatic, dramatic period of British history. So the fundamental ideas that sort of Quakers are bringing to town is that they are rejecting formal clergy and their whole, you know, they believe that anybody can have a direct connection with God at any time, anywhere. So you don't need, you don't need your fancy churches either. And so this is obviously for the local authorities. There are a few alarm bells ringing and it's like, oh, okay, these, these guys seem a little, they're a little different. Their beliefs were very radical for the time. So Quakers are, you know, they're believing that sort of, they, they, like I said, this divine connection with God, they can receive this quote, unquote, truth anytime.
- [07:22]
Don Wildman
Yeah, some of what you're saying will be familiar to people from various angles in the world. I mean, there's elements of Quakerism that you can find in Buddhism, et cetera. It's the idea that you have this, we call it the light is in Everyone, you know, and the threat that we'll talk about politically and theologically is that that was normally, you know, passed down from the Catholic Church, I suppose, but a hierarchy of understanding and connection to God, and you only reached God through that hierarchy. And suddenly in the 1600s and onward from there, there was a general movement towards individualism, which is reflected in so many different parts of society. But in religion, there are many reformists who Were saying, I don't need all this, you know, politics in my. My church. So let's, you know, let's find a way to connect with God in a simpler fashion. And the Quakers take that to the nth degree, right?
- [08:16]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Oh, absolutely. And so when we're talking about equality, like, that's another thing that the early Quakers are bringing to the table is that, you know, men and women are viewed as equals. So if a woman is compelled to preach, to speak in a meeting, she's allowed to do that and that, you know, that. I mean, arguably. So we've had, like, the sort of the core religious beliefs. But I think what's really alarming local authorities, particularly in England at this time, are the social elements, the social equality that Quakers are bringing to the table. And so, of course, the first is, you know, equality between men and women. Like, this is just. This was just not a done thing at the time. So we have that, but then we also have equality amongst sort of everyone in society. So. So it was, you know, the societal norms of the time. You know, you were. You were meant to sort of, you know, tip your hat, take off your hat to your social superior. Quakers are like, nah, we're not doing that because we're all equal. We're all equal. We're all children of God. The other thing that they're doing, as we alluded to in the beginning of this episode, is that they are saying things like they're calling everyone the and thou. So they're not addressing their social superiors in a way that is essentially standard.
- [09:43]
Don Wildman
It's called plain speak. Plain speak is what you're taught when you're a kid here. There's many families that still teach it within their own world and they speak it at dinner tables and inside the home. And it's a beautiful thing. You hear people say, does thee want more ketchup? You know, it's like. It's in the most mundane fashion, but when you hear it done, it's this beautiful language that's between Quakers, private more than public nowadays, but it still goes on. What you're really talking, addressing, and I just want to nail this down, is the truth, equality, the simplicity, the sustainability of life through individuals and in practice. I answer this question all the time to Friends. What do you do? What does a Quaker do? Well, the essential practice is in silent worship. And you walk into a room and together as a group, you sit down and you've done this a number of times together. It's very normal. You sit in a room with nothing Adorned on the walls, there's no crosses or crucifixes, there's no iconography. And in this plain and simple room, you sit in silence and let the voice of God speak to everyone in the room in their own way. And in that regard, everyone is equal and the light of God is in everyone. During that meeting, some people maybe move to speak and they do stand up and minister themselves. There's no priest in charge. That's different out West. There's reformed Quakerism as well. But that's essentially what goes on. And I think we just need to understand that image of people sitting alone in a room and how revolutionary that was in the 1600s. These people were zealots and they were taking on the orthodoxy with a fury.
- [11:17]
Dr. Erica Cannella
They absolutely were. And so this is sort of, I think that it's not so much the message that the Quakers are bringing to town that is so upsetting to people. It's. It's the way that they're going about and doing it.
- [11:30]
Don Wildman
Yes, they were obnoxious.
- [11:32]
Dr. Erica Cannella
You know what? I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that. They were obnoxious and they were very annoying. Like, the way they. They weren't. They just weren't subtle there. There's just no subtlety at all.
- [11:43]
Don Wildman
And there was a holier than thou crowd going on there, too. I mean, this is not true of everybody, let's be honest. But. And George Fox was an exception. He was a broader thinker man. But anyway, there were a lot of people that were a little too intense about this.
- [11:56]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Anyway, that was. The thing is that people either found this message totally compelling and were willing to completely uproot their lives to propagate this message, or they found it extremely repelling. There's not a lot of gray area when it comes to the early Quaker message. And so when they're sort of coming into town. So essentially this is a movement that is born in the north of England. That's where it really starts to take shape. And so from the north, particularly the northwest of Maine, England, they sort of. Quakers are very organized from the get go. This is why they survive, because their organizational skills are worthy of, like the most irritating person on LinkedIn. Like, they are, like, in it to win it. And so. So they are starting this missionary activity from the north of England. And of course they're going. They will. They will be going abroad. But when we're sort of just looking at England, they. They're sort of moving southward. And so when they're coming into Town. They are a lot of the early Quakers are prolific writers and so these communities, towns, communities, the first they're probably going to know about this movement is through reading about it or having it read to them. There is a level of literacy, I think, required that we don't talk about a lot, whole lot. When we're looking at, sort of, when we're looking at the dissemination of religious ideas in this period is, is that, I mean, Quakers are, they are writing quite prolifically.
- [13:34]
Don Wildman
We love our pamphlets. Boy do we love pamphlets.
- [13:37]
Dr. Erica Cannella
We love, you know, so Quakers love their pamphlets. And I tell you what, Quakers loved keeping hold of all of their records. And for a Quaker historian it's like, oh, amen. Thank you so much for keeping all of the paper that most people would be like, honey, you're a hoarder, you need to get rid of that. But no, Quakers kept everything.
- [13:58]
Don Wildman
I'll tell you, I did my family tree on ancestry and I was the easiest case they could possibly find because every Quaker record was kept for 500 years. It's a crazy thing. At the time of its founding, Quakerism's founding, the Church of England is a politicized organization, big hierarchy that has alienated many in England, especially in the rural areas. And what we're talking about here is the northwest of England counties like Lancaster and Yorkshire, that zone, these are rural agrarian communities. Why was this the beginning? Where did, why did it find its footing here?
- [14:34]
Dr. Erica Cannella
I think it just so happened there's this perfect, I'm going to say it, I'm going to call it a perfect, It's a perfect storm. So we start with George Fox, who for all intents and purposes is the founder and leader of Quakerism. And so George Fox, he is from Leicestershire, which again is sort of one of these sort of more, more northern northwestern counties. He's born in July 1624. And the reason I mention when he's born is to kind of give an approximation of his age. So that way we get an idea that this is a relatively, in broad general terms, this relatively younger man. He is the son of a weaver who seems to be from a very well to do family. And so his, his father left him a substantial legacy and basically this sort of gives George the freedom to kind of find himself really. And so during the Civil Wars, George Fox leaves his family and sort of starts this period which he calls searching. And so he calls it his time in the wilderness. And so he finds like at the, you know, he, when he's writing about this period of his life, he Has. He's not satisfied with any of the religious options of the day. And so he essentially goes traveling in search of this. And bear in mind, this is wartime.
- [15:59]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [16:00]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So the Civil wars, which essentially started in August 1642, they'll last until 1651. And so in the late 1640s, George Fox is traveling and he's traveling amongst basically the areas that are controlled by Parliament. And so what's also happening in the background is that amongst Parliament, amongst the New Model army, there are a lot of new radical religious ideas swirling around and they're being disseminated via the printing press. And so. So it's. They're. They're going through sort of all, like, all these sympathetic, more radical people. So George Fox is definitely going to be hearing, hearing, reading all these new ideas. So he is traveling and he starts. He has these. These spiritual epiphanies, just these quite significant religious experiences. So he starts preaching. He's preaching around and sort of, long story short, in 16. So we're fast forwarding a little bit because we don't have all the time in the world, Don. I wish we did, but we don't. So 1652, George Fox comes across this congregation of Seekers, and like, oh, Erica, what are Seekers? Well, it's exactly what they do, exactly what they say on the tin. So they are also dissatisfied with the religious options on, you know, on offer. And they're waiting, they're seeking, they're looking for that. For that divine inspiration. And so there's a gathering of a thousand seekers and George Fox is preaching to them. And this happens in Furbank Fell in Cumbria. And then the seekers are like, ah, yes, this is what we have been seeking.
- [17:48]
Don Wildman
He was, yeah, he's a charismatic guy. He was a very, very compelling individual. And Quaker, early Quaker history is filled with these people, as you say, insanely good writers and speakers, basically, because they had a good argument for what they were saying. I just want to back you up and explain the times here a little bit more. You might equate this to any kind of like World War II. We're coming out. War has had a lot to do with this, as you say, the English Civil wars were enormously costly to everyone, and 200,000 people died in England in those days, which is in proportion much larger than who died in World War I. For.
- [18:25]
Dr. Erica Cannella
That's right.
- [18:25]
Don Wildman
I mean, not in numbers, obviously, but it was, as in terms of the times, it was a huge disruptive force and tragedy in British society or English society and elsewhere, Scotland and Ireland, all over the place Charles the first is executed, Parliament arises. These are enormous changes in society that are going on and challenging the norms of thinking for the average Englishman, for sure. And. And into that vacuum of. Of life comes the new Puritans, Oliver Cromwell, et cetera. This is a whole thing that's happening, that's going on in the backdrop of Quakerism's founding.
- [19:03]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Everything is very delicate. Like everything that you just described, it's just like, I mean, that, that, you know, there's, like, there is trauma, right? There's so much trauma.
- [19:12]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [19:13]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And so much uncertainty, and there must have been quite a lot of fear. And I think that this, again, this plays into both. This plays into both sides of the story. This plays into the people who are just like, yes, I need something new. And this, this, you know, this message of Quakerism, it resonates with me. Like, this makes sense to me. And then there are the people on the other side who are like, yo, we just want. We just want to keep things together because things are way too delicate right now. And we have like, the king has been executed. This whole government, it feels like we're feeling it out.
- [19:50]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [19:50]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Is it. Is this gonna last? I mean, spoiler alert. It doesn't. But there's this whole, you know, but then there's also just sort of like the tangible things. Right. So these are not the Civil Wars. They weren't sort of fought in the middle of sort of broad English countryside. Like, these were battles that are just taken. They are taken to town and they're taken to everyday people. Everyday people. Their lives were ruined by these competing armies going back and forth, back and forth. And so Quakerism didn't just pop up out of nowhere.
- [20:23]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [20:24]
Dr. Erica Cannella
I mean, it's like it comes from this.
- [20:25]
Don Wildman
You can equate it to the American Civil War in some ways, and that so much social change happens afterwards. Obviously, the abolishment of slavery, but among many others that eventually lead to the Progressive Era. I mean, this stuff really has as legs, you know, when. When there are these kinds of social upheavals that end up in war, a lot of things happen in society a lot more. A lot more quickly than they normally would. And Quakerism is sort of riding that wave is basically what happens. By 1680, there have been lots of preaching, lots of missions. Organization on a very small scale has happened amongst the Quakers up in that area. By 1680, about, you know, 30 years after its original founding, the Quakers number some 40,000 people in this part of the world. Right. It's really catching Fire.
- [21:10]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And it's really quite extraordinary because when you look at the early period and sort of how many of the early Quaker leaders were imprisoned and died, it's quite shocking that there were that many members. Like, as we sort of creep towards the end of the century and again, sort of like, oh, how. How were they successful? Why were they successful? Well, well, I'll answer that for you. So they're very successful because, again, like I said, like I could evangelize about their brilliant organization. And that's evidenced by the number of local meetings that are established certainly in England by this period is by the end of the century. There is at least one local Quaker meeting in every county. And most counties have several meetings. And so the reason, again, that we have this tremendous grassroots support is down to sort of the work that the first traveling ministers did. And so their job essentially is to. Well, obviously they need to spread the message. That's what missionaries do. But they need to make important local contacts, you know, to grow so that way that message can grow and flourish. Because the traveling Quaker minister by, you know, it's in the name. They've got to travel. They've got places to go. They have other 17th century prisons to go and visit because they are most of them. Most of these traveling ministers will end up being incarcerated at some point.
- [22:46]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Dr. Erica Cannella
But it really is the fact that they are able to inspire local people to a point where most of the time some person of influence will say, you know what, I'm going to hold this Quaker meeting in my home. I know the risk that I am taking here, but you know what, it's worth it. And so Quakers are making key contacts along the road. And then that's why by 1680, you know, we're able to have. Quakers are able to have 40,000 members, which is extraordinary.
- [23:18]
Don Wildman
Well, considering how controversial it really was. I mean, you mentioned jail. People are. We'll get into this in a bit of time. But the persecution that happens is real. People are put in jail. There's a hardcore reaction in the government against this. And I want to go into detail after we take a short break and come back and talk about what your book is really about, which is, you say, the darker side of Quakers. That's the first time I've ever heard that. So we got to talk about it.
- [23:42]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Okay.
- [23:48]
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- [24:17]
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- [24:34]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So.
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Ryan Reynolds
So that means a half day.
- [24:37]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
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- [24:47]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Mobile.Com.
- [24:51]
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- [25:16]
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- [25:55]
Don Wildman
Talking to Erica Cannella, author of a new book called Zealous the Darker side of Early Quakers. Explain that term to me or that title. Really, Erica? And why the darker side? What's. What's that all about?
- [26:08]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So it is. I appreciate. I appreciate it. It is. It is a provocative title. I. I appreciate that. It's. You know, I. You know, I feel a little nervous talking to. To a birth. Birthright Quaker.
- [26:19]
Don Wildman
Oh God, don't. Don't do that. But.
- [26:22]
The irony Is that the book is. I mean. And I suppose you knew this when you made the title. The whole thing in Quakerism is about light. The light within, remain in the light or be in the light. It's what you say to everybody. It's really the common word among all Quakers. So that you say there's a darker side is very provocative, very interesting. So why. So.
- [26:42]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So if you read Quaker meeting minutes, correspondence, like, you know, that Quakers. Some dark things happened to Quakers, like, there is no, no, no disputing that local authorities in a lot of ways were quite unnecessarily cruel in how they sort of dealt with this. What they saw a problem. However. However. So what I mean by zealous is that it's basically. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be zealous. It's, you know, it is, by definition, it's a fervent enthusiasm, zeal. And you kind of like, it tracks. Like, for me, it tracks. I don't think that Quakerism would have survived without that zealous outpouring.
- [27:30]
Don Wildman
Yes. This is addressable through the name, isn't it? I mean, there we're called the Society of Friends, which is nice and friendly, but we're also called the Quakers, which actually referred to a kind of disagreeable aspect to us at first, right?
- [27:43]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Oh, yeah. I mean, Quaker. The term Quaker, I mean, it was. It was originally meant as an insult. And the origin of this comes from a 1650 court case when George Fox told a magistrate to tremble at the word of the Lord and the judge, sort of, sort of, I guess, in a really kind of sarcastic way, sort of called. Called him and. And his followers Quakers because they're, you know, quaking when they're having these intense religious experiences. And rather than sort of. Rather than rejecting that, Quakers, well, religious, the religious Society, Friends, they really embraced it. And, you know, when they're writing, certainly in the 1650s, they're writing these pamphlets and saying, like, signing it off by person called, or he called and scorned a Quaker. They're really owning it. And over time, it sort of becomes a. Becomes a common name and almost like a badge of honor. So it starts as a mockery, but then, like I said, it becomes this badge of spiritual conviction.
- [28:49]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [28:49]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And I mean, who. I mean, who takes an insult like that and owns it? I don't really know of any other group that's like, kind of like, I'm going to take that. I'll show you. I'll show you who's quaking.
- [29:00]
Don Wildman
When you first learn these things in Sunday school, as we all did. There are names that you learn about George Fox, Margaret Fell, all these very notable and important names to us. One name was very surprising to me that I was not very familiar with. In your book called, named James Naylor, can you explain who he was and how he leads to what becomes quite controversial in the behavior of Quakers?
- [29:23]
Dr. Erica Cannella
So James Naylor was. So he fought in the New Model army, and he was a man. He's slightly older than George Fox. He is a man who is from the county of Yorkshire. And so he is sort of one of the early and very important recruits that George Fox makes in the earliest period. I mean, James Naylor is a very talented writer, very talented preacher. So when I think of George Fox and James Naylor, so their paths essentially cross in a very short period of time from, you know, the early 1650s. James Naylor, spoiler alert, is dead in 1660. So it's a very short space of time. And they go from being very close, essentially spiritual brothers and very dear friends of each other, and then they have this fractious relationship, and then by the end, they're barely speaking to each other at all. Kind of reminds me of Paul McCartney and John Lennon. I'm gonna go there, right? I'm gonna go there. And so. So James Naylor is. He's sort of. He's extremely charismatic, arguably more so than George Fox and any of the other preachers that. That Quakers are. Are offering up. And so sort of as we get towards the mid-1650s, there's kind of almost like arguably a cult revolving around James Naylor. And so he is attracting. He's attracting a lot of attention. And people are, like, really into. They're really into his preaching. And so essentially what happens in October of 1656? So James. James Naylor and his followers are traveling in the southwest of England and they come into the city of Bristol. And this is very much the Reader's Digest version of this story. So James Naylor and his. And his followers come into Bristol and they decide that, ah, you know, it's going to be a really good idea. We're going to reenact Jesus going into Jerusalem. Like, oh, the people are going to freaking love that. Yes. So. So the. So his followers are like, you know, they're throwing essentially, like, their garments or cloaks on the ground. And James Naylor is sort of quite somberly, you know, riding this horse through town, and his followers are saying, you know, hosanna. Hosanna, Hosanna. And it's like the local authorities are like, nah, we are not having this. James Naylor is known as being one of the leading figures of Quakerism, who, at this time, they're not very popular throughout England.
- [32:10]
Don Wildman
Well, you use the word cult. I mean, they would have been thought of as that, you know, kind of this crazy bunch of people who are following an extreme theology.
- [32:17]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Fanatics. Right, they're fanatics.
- [32:19]
Don Wildman
Exactly.
- [32:20]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And so the local authorities are like, oh, we got this guy, we got him. And so, because this. What. What James Naylor is doing is blasphemous, right? He is. He is. He's pretending he's Jesus and that's just not cool. And so Parliament as well, they're immediately like, okay, these Quakers are troublemakers. We've got one of the big guys. Let's take him. Instead of trying him in Bristol, which makes sense, because this is happening within the jurisdiction of Bristol, we're taking him to London. We're going to make a big old spectacle out of this. And so that's exactly what they do. So James Naylor, sort of like this big, big Quaker fish. They've got him. And so he is on trial. And the people who are brought, essentially, James Naylor's character witnesses are. Well, they're the worst. Like, they're the worst character witnesses of all time, especially when you're on trial for blasphemy. And so one of his character witnesses is a woman named Dorcas Irbury, who is. Who was with him when he's sort of reenacting Christ Entry into Jerusalem. She's. She is in it.
- [33:24]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [33:24]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And so she tells, essentially, during this trial, she says that she knows no other Jesus than James Naylor, and she says that James Naylor has raised her from the dead. That is super not helpful during a trial for blasphemy. And so. So obviously, James Naylor is found guilty and his punishment is quite, quite severe. So he has a letter B burned into his forehead, his tongue is bored. And then he is whipped, like, I think he's meant to be whipped 300 times, twice. And so, like, they were really trying to make an example out of James Naylor and using this trial and punishment.
- [34:12]
As an attempt to sort of. Let's. Let's cut this Quakerism out for good. Let's show people that this is what will happen. Obviously didn't work, because you're here.
- [34:22]
Don Wildman
Well, they just kept coming.
- [34:23]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Talking to a Quaker right now.
- [34:25]
Don Wildman
Yeah, exactly. They just kept coming. And then they left, of course, and came to America. But they were very convinced of the things I mean, some of the things they did in those days were crazy. You know, like there was a streaking aspect of it. There was going naked as a sign. It was called men and women stripped naked and running through public spaces in protest. I'll just go on about this. Mid 1600s, there was this Quaker movement which had become such a threat, mostly because of the personalities involved who were really willing to stand up and be noticed, like a James Naylor, Sarah Goldsmith, Solomon Echols. They all did this naked thing where they were running around crying warnings of divine judgment. They were drawing. I mean, to be fair, they were drawing on some biblical precedents about this. You can find naked and barefoot as prophetic gestures in the Bible. So they were just weren't coming up with this out of nowhere, but they were very sensationalist is the point. And this horrified the authorities, who, as you say, blamed them for blasphemy. Now, this is, again, I remind people, this is a broad period of unrest in England. There are lots of other groups like the Seekers, who, you know, there was a wave of this stuff that the Quakers were kind of riding better than anyone else in the end, for whatever different kinds of reasons, but also because the values end up being very appealing when things calm down, emphasizing the inner light and so forth. As we've discussed, there was another element of this, which is called the digging up of corpses. This was completely brand new to me. I had no knowledge. Before your book. Let's talk about a woman named Susanna Pearson.
- [36:00]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Oh, we love Susanna Pearson. Oh, bless her. Bless her. So, you know, this is all happening. And the mid-1650s was quite a time. Was quite a time. So we just talked about James Naylor. This all happens in October 1656. And so a few months later, in February 1657, there is another incident of blasphemy taking place. And so this time, this is in the city of Worcester, which is sort of Mid England. Mid England. And so I'm gonna set the scene for you. I'm gonna take you on a little journey. I hope you're ready. So it's February 1657. It's, I imagine it's a cold time of year. And so there a man, a young man, a young Quaker man named William Poole is. He is an apprentice to a local clothier. His name is George Knight. George Knight is also a Quaker. And so William Poole, it's a Friday afternoon. He's finished with the work week, and he says, the Lord has essential. I'm going to paraphrase a little bit here. So he's basically said that the Lord Jesus has come to him and taken him by the hand and essentially is requesting his presence again. So Jesus wants. Wants to see William again. And so this is an odd way to say goodbye after the working week. And so this is kind of like, okay, bye, William. Have a good weekend. See you Monday, mate. So nobody sees William for a couple days, and we can. It's It. They're alarmed. And so in sort of searching for William, they find his clothes along the banks of the River Severn. And so the Severn river is sort of one of the larger rivers in this part of England, and it's also quite fast moving. It's not a lazy river. It's a quick one. And so his clothes are found on Sunday morning. And later that day, William Poole is found drowned in the river. And so immediately, the coroner says this is a suicide. And so in this period of history, in the early modern period, suicide is the worst. Is the worst sort of death. It is essentially telling. You've told everyone that you have given up on God, you have no faith, and that is. It's grim, right? It's not good. And so William Poole.
- [38:38]
He'S dead, right? And so his parents are burying him, and they are. They are allowed to bury him in the churchyard of Clain's Church, which is just north of Worcester city center. And so the fact that William Poole is being buried in a churchyard suggests that his parents are not Quakers and that his parents have called in some favors because Quakers are absolutely not buried in churchyards.
- [39:04]
Don Wildman
Right. We don't believe in headstones.
- [39:06]
Dr. Erica Cannella
That's right. In this period, there are no headstones, and they have their own burial places. And so. So, yeah, so this suggests that William Poole's par. William Poole's parents are not Quakers, and so they are allowed to bury their son. They have to do it under the COVID of darkness because of the. You know, because of how he died. There is a huge element of shame involved. And so. So William Poole has been buried, and a Quaker woman named Susanna Pearson approaches his mother and says, I can bring your son back to life.
- [39:41]
Don Wildman
Oh, my.
- [39:42]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Which is okay. For some reason. For some reason, William Poole's grieving mother says, yeah, okay, yeah, have a go. And so. And so the next day, Susanna Pearson and her accomplices, they come to the. They come to the churchyard and they. They dig up William Pool. And so it creates. I mean, it's. When you just kind of imagine it, it's. It's under the COVID of darkness again. It's cold, right? William Pool has drowned in a river. We don't have modern burial practices at this time. And so his body is going to be in quite a state. So Susanna Pearson, she undoes, she takes off the burial shroud, she straddles his body. Body. And she begins sort of, she begins sort of rubbing his body and rubbing her face on his face and commanding him to rise.
- [40:39]
Don Wildman
Yeah, gross. And this is done in public and she's, she's quite dramatic about it, as you say. It doesn't work, though. What a surprise.
- [40:48]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Oh, it doesn't work. I'm glad that. Yeah, I'm glad I didn't have to spell that out. No, he stayed dead. He's 100%. He's 100% dead and stays dead. And so Susanna is like, oh, she's a little concerned because she, she obviously, she thought that this was going to work. And then, you know, the reasoning kicks in and she's like, oh, you know what? Jesus waited four days before, before raising Lazarus, and I did this too soon. Oops. And then they, you know, they go back and essentially, you know, bury him again and then just kind of, you know, hands clean. Sorry.
- [41:25]
Don Wildman
Yeah. Well, this is the first time I ever heard this kind of sordid tale. And I have to say we don't talk a lot about that stuff.
- [41:32]
Dr. Erica Cannella
It's the darker side.
- [41:34]
Don Wildman
Yeah, the Sunday school stuff. But these are early days of Quakerism. And that's the fascinating thing about the history is it changes quite a lot, as does everything in life, for that matter, with the 1700s and so forth. But before we leave this time, let's establish this is not a one off for Susanna Pearson. Others were doing the same thing. Other radical Quakers were digging up graves and carrying skulls through the streets and declaring, all flesh is, you know, all worldly pomp will come to dust. And it was all very weird. And it was probably isolated incidents in a way that were made much more dramatic by the reports and the news and so forth, wanting to do away with these people and stop their movement. But it doesn't become that. But the persecution that we heard about, I mean, what we traditionally were taught was about more like William Penn being thrown in jail. And these, these people were trying to create something of an organized movement that was such a threat to the Church of England specifically, but also other kinds of governance as well. And this, this goes all through this entire period and finally ends up with people going to America. Because the other backdrop of this is the age of Discovery, which is this new world is being settled by These Europeans, it's not new to the Native Americans who were there, but these new colonies that were being established on the east coast were this new chance for religious movements to find new footing. And you know, the, the, the metaphor is obvious. This is a garden, you know, this, we're returning to the garden. This pure world is over there on the other side of the ocean. And we can now find this footing for these new, new movements. And the English authorities are only too willing to let these people go. And so.
- [43:14]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Oh, absolutely. It's like, you know what? Holla at you, goodbye. Like, have fun, have fun. Good luck with the local authorities in the colonies. They're gonna love you.
- [43:24]
Don Wildman
The Spanish were there first, as we've talked so much on this show, but the English get there a little later. Of course, the Pilgrims in New England and then the Puritans down more south. It's Virginia, we're not talking about that for now, but up north in New England, these Puritans are really getting things rolling up there. And the Quakers come across are a few Quaker missionaries, one named Mary Dyer, among others, come to the, come to Boston expecting to be greeted by their fellow Englishmen, first of all, who are going to welcome their, their whole theology. And quite the opposite. The Puritans in America were very intense.
- [43:59]
Dr. Erica Cannella
They were extremely intense. And it's, you know, it's like you do see that, you know, the Quakers, they did, they kind of expected, they expected to sort of have a, you know, sort of an open arm situation, but what they found was essentially the exact same, in many ways, the exact same treatment that they were getting in, in England.
- [44:18]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [44:19]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And so, I mean, Mary Dyer is such a, she's such a, I mean, that's such a brilliant story. Again, sort of one of these Quakers who had every opportunity to just kind of, you know, live a long life. And she was so, you know, she, you know, she truly believed in what she was preaching and she was willing to take all the risks to spread this message, you know, so, so essentially sort of, you know, if we, again, this is the same period. So it's like, you know, it's 1659 in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. And so Quakers are coming over very early.
- [44:54]
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- [45:24]
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- [45:57]
Don Wildman
Can I ask you something? I have always wondered, even as a child learning about this stuff, what was so threatening about nonviolence, pacifism, silent worship, you know, what, how were they so worried about these people coming in preaching this? Because essentially that's what they were doing. They weren't saying, you can't do everything. You knew they were trying to convince people, but they weren't necessarily as confrontational as they were demonstrating their own passion.
- [46:21]
Dr. Erica Cannella
I think that, I do think that they were confrontational. Like, surely they didn't take up, they didn't take up physical weapons. But I think that's sort of the reputation that they got for sort of busting into churches during services and essentially sort of, you know, hurling insults at the, you know, at the, at the minister and the congregation. You know, again, it's all this, it's, it is antisocial and it is disrupting the peace. And I think that that's, it's enough, right? It's enough for them to be a threat. It's, you know, it's kind of like there's this, there is a subversive element to this early Quaker movement that it's enough to raise alarms.
- [47:01]
Don Wildman
Yeah, it's in your face. Yeah, it's really, it is.
- [47:03]
Dr. Erica Cannella
You know, and they, they are, they are, you know, they're not just sort of quietly sort of handing someone a pamphlet and scurrying away. Like they are confrontational. They are bold. And to be honest, like they are so like the early Quakers, like, they are, they're incredibly driven.
- [47:20]
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- [47:20]
Dr. Erica Cannella
They are so compelled to be the change they, they want to see in the world. Not just in England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland.
- [47:30]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [47:31]
Dr. Erica Cannella
But everywhere they go. Everywhere they go, like they, you know, when they're going to the colonies, it's like, oh, you know what? I think we can make things better here. I think we can make things better. There's this, this idealism at, sort of, at the foundation of it all, there's a, there's this foundation of hope that things can be better and this is the way.
- [47:51]
Don Wildman
Right.
- [47:52]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And then, but it is, unfortunately, it is that confrontational nature of the first Quakers that kind of, you know, it, it, it stops them, it stops many of them in their tracks. And in Mary Dyer's case, you know, quite literally because she ends up, she ends up, you know, hanging in 1660.
- [48:10]
Don Wildman
Well, and they gave her a chance not to be. You know, that's, they sure did. They like just get out of town. You can't do that here. They said to her and, and, and others too, there were four martyrs, famously. And, and she's one of them. And, and they go away to Rhode island where they can get away with a lot more freedom of religion. And then they come back and the coming back part is what you're talking about. It's like they will not give up. And in the face of this extreme, you know, heavy duty theology in Boston, they think they can break that edifice and they can't. And so finally they just, they literally string them up and hang them. Four of them are killed in this time. And Mary Dyer's statue is the one you see in Boston Common today.
- [48:50]
Dr. Erica Cannella
It is. It, absolutely. And I mean, what a, I mean, what a legacy that is. I mean, she's the only, she's the only Quaker woman executed.
- [48:57]
Don Wildman
Yeah.
- [48:57]
Dr. Erica Cannella
And she has this, this amazing statue now.
- [49:00]
Don Wildman
Well, let's not skip over that. Enormous fact is that women had enormous power in Quakerism and that in itself was a threat of the age. It's a matriarchal religion. It really is. And even legally, my, famously, my father's grandmother, I believe, was Hannah Wildman. And her name was the name of the deed in the 1800s of that bucks county farm where my father was born. And that was never done back then. You didn't transfer the name of a man to a woman. And so it was the farm of Hannah Wildman. And that was a big, big pride among Quakers that, that women took control of things and ran things. They always did in every other religion too, but they just didn't do it legally anyway. These women had a lot of power and men of other in Boston really didn't like that.
- [49:45]
Dr. Erica Cannella
No, no, of course not. I mean, it's like no, no, no, back in, back in the kitchen with you, honey. Like you. We don't, we don't need to hear what you think.
- [49:53]
Don Wildman
We're nearing the end of this conversation and I just want to say that I hope people listen and a few people can comment and we'll take this story further because I'm obviously enthusiastic about this. And it gets really interesting as you get past this point that we're talking about, which is the early, early origins into more of the sophisticated American story of Pennsylvania, which is William Penn. So let's talk about William Penn. The word Pennsylvania is actually Penn's woods. Okay? Sylvan is woods. And so when you're talking about Pennsylvania, it's William Penn's woods. He didn't actually like that name. He didn't want that name. But that's kind of what they all gave, became that name of the colony. It made a little bit too much of William Penn for himself. He was a good guy, but he was a well born Quaker whose father the King of England was indebted to, owed him a lot of money. And so in order to sort of settle that debt and get his obnoxious son out of England, Pennsylvania was invented. And that's where really where this comes from. 1681.
- [50:54]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Yeah. So then, so then in six. So you do see sort of in the Quaker meeting minutes from this period in, in, in England, you do see Quakers starting to leave and specifically going to Pennsylvania. And they're sort of the, the group, it's the Free Society of Traders, they're leaving en masse and you do, you know, you can sort of see the journey of sort of like, you know, when the Quakers are, are leaving in the meeting minute records. And you can also sort of sometimes see them popping up in Philadelphia Meeting minute records. And so it's quite extraordinary to sort of see this essentially this mass migration over and you know what they're, you know, it's promising a much better, it's just basically promising a much better life under a lot less persecution. That idea of freedom.
- [51:44]
Don Wildman
Yeah. Penn called it the holy, the holy experiment, creating this place where all faiths of all kinds could live. Just to be clear, this was not just for Quakers. They could live side by side. He made very innovative treaties with Native Americans in that area, the Lenape people and all those tribes around there actually had very good relations with indigenous peoples at that point. It gets worse down the road, to be honest. But in that first iteration there was respect. He was seeking not just to build a colony, but to prove you know, the headline was Freedom and harmony could shape a new society. And that was going to be using this, this now more refined Quakerism which had come down, you know, 50 years or so from, from its beginnings to apply it politically, socially and make this new kind of place. And really that was a big revolution. And that's why Philadelphia really mattered back in the day.
- [52:39]
Dr. Erica Cannella
But you can see, I mean that influence of Penn, sort of, because I'm originally from central Delaware and so the reach of Penn is, is wide and so there's. William Penn is, is everywhere. Like his legacy is so massive in this part of the United States. And it's something, it's one of those, it's something to be proud of. I can imagine. Certainly for a Quaker to, you know, for this, you know, he's an iconic American hero, I think. I mean he's not American, he's a, he's a, he's an iconic hero of the foundation of the United States.
- [53:13]
Don Wildman
Well, and it's huge. Let's not undersell this. I mean from this from the 1700s into the 1800s, Philadelphia is the leading city in America. And it's not just because of the religion, it's because business is very attracted there. It's a well managed city, it's got services, et cetera, et cetera. And it really takes off. And 1876, ish, the first centennial is when really Quakerism has proven out to be in this extraordinary city building, nation building force. And it changes for various other reasons down the road and New York takes over. But Philadelphia really proves out to be a holy experiment that is quite bold and very successful. But we'll end now on this Erika, and hopefully we come back and talk about the next century of Quakerism if people have listened and enjoyed this. So if you did, please comment, please let us know. Don, please do. More Quakerism.
- [54:05]
Dr. Erica Cannella
We love it. We can't get enough.
- [54:08]
Don Wildman
Yes, Dr. Erica Cannella has been my guest today. She's a historian specializing in 17th century history with a focus on the British Civil wars and early Quakers in England. And you can see that articulated in her book, which is new Zealous, A Darker side of the Early Quakers. Thank you so much for joining me. Nice to meet you.
- [54:26]
Dr. Erica Cannella
Thank you so much.
- [54:30]
Don Wildman
Hey, thanks for listening to American History hit. You know, every week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays, all kinds of content from mysterious missing colonies to powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow you help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share it with a friend. American history hit with me. Don Wildman so grateful for your support.
- [55:05]
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Dr. Erica Cannella
Nights with friends with stays under $250.
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