The Truth About Native American Boarding Schools

Summary

American History Hit - Episode Summary: "The Truth About Native American Boarding Schools"

Release Date: June 12, 2025
Host: Don Wildman
Guest: Mary Annette Pember, Author of Medicine River: A Story of Survival and the Legacy of Indian Boarding Schools

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1. Introduction to Native American Boarding Schools

In this poignant episode of American History Hit, host Don Wildman delves into the dark and often overlooked history of Native American boarding schools in the United States. These institutions, established in the late 19th century, aimed to forcibly assimilate Native American children into Western culture, stripping them of their indigenous identities, languages, and traditions.

Key Points:

• Establishment and Purpose: The boarding school system was designed to "Americanize" Native youth, believing that immersion in English language and Western customs was essential for their success in American society.
• Scope: Over 500 schools across 38 states operated for more than a century, with devastating effects on generations of Native Americans.

Mary Annette Pember sets the stage by describing a haunting photograph of the first male students at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School (Timestamp: [02:33]).

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2. Historical Context and Foundation

Don and Mary Annette explore the origins of the boarding school system, tracing its roots back to early federal policies and missionary efforts.

Key Points:

• Civilization Act of 1819: This congressional act authorized the introduction of "arts of civilization" to Native tribes, laying the groundwork for later assimilation policies (Timestamp: [08:29]).
• Missionary Involvement: Initially driven by Protestant missionaries, later Catholic organizations also played significant roles, often violating the separation of church and state by receiving direct federal funding (Timestamp: [09:12]).
• Colonel Richard Pratt's Influence: Pratt's Carlisle School became the model for subsequent institutions, famously summarizing the mission with the motto, "Kill the Indian, save the man" (Timestamp: [23:38]).

Mary Annette emphasizes that the boarding schools were part of a broader federal and settler agenda to eradicate Native cultures and integrate individuals into the capitalist economy (Timestamp: [24:38]).

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3. Personal Narratives and Impacts

Mary Annette Pember shares deeply personal stories from her family's experiences with the boarding school system, highlighting both the brutality and the resilience of those affected.

Notable Quotes:

• Mary Annette Pember: "They could pay additional money for their children at least so they could see them occasionally. [Timestamp: 20:58]"
• Don Wildman: "She called them dirty, lazy, barely human creatures unfit to raise their own children." [Timestamp: 33:15]

Key Points:

• Forced Separation: Children were often taken from their families at a young age—Mary Annette's mother, Bernice Rabideau, was sent to boarding school at five years old (Timestamp: [28:55]).
• Cultural Suppression: Native attire, languages, and spiritual practices were forbidden. Punishments were harsh, including corporal punishment and isolation for those who resisted (Timestamp: [21:09]).
• Health Consequences: Overcrowded conditions led to high rates of disease and mortality. Mary Annette discusses how boarding schools inadvertently became vectors for tuberculosis, exacerbating community health crises (Timestamp: [22:13]).

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4. Resistance and Legacy

The episode examines the various forms of resistance employed by Native Americans against the boarding school system and the lasting legacy of these institutions.

Key Points:

• Individual Acts of Defiance: Children often resisted through subtle means, such as maintaining their cultural practices in secret or biding their time until they could leave school (Timestamp: [13:55]).
• Community Resistance: Entire communities sometimes resisted by hiding children or openly defying school authorities, leading to severe repercussions like imprisonment or military intervention (Timestamp: [17:21]).
• AIM and the 1960s Movement: The American Indian Movement (AIM) emerged as a powerful force advocating for self-determination and the reclamation of Native education, challenging the remnants of the boarding school legacy (Timestamp: [39:40]).

Mary Annette highlights the resilience of Native communities, noting that despite the trauma, they have maintained and revitalized their languages and traditions (Timestamp: [35:00]).

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5. Modern Acknowledgments and Healing Efforts

The conversation shifts to contemporary efforts to address the historical injustices of the boarding school system and to heal the wounds inflicted upon Native communities.

Key Points:

• 2024 Federal Apology: Under the Biden administration, the U.S. government formally apologized to the Native American community for the boarding school system's legacy (Timestamp: [04:13]).
• Indian Boarding School Healing Act: This legislative effort aims to create records of the atrocities, provide mental health support, and facilitate healing within Native communities. While it lacks the reparations seen in Canada, it marks a significant step towards acknowledgment and reconciliation (Timestamp: [43:49]).
• Comparative Progress: Mary Annette notes that unlike Canada, which has made substantial financial reparations and public apologies, the U.S. is only beginning to confront these issues, with ongoing efforts to document and support survivors (Timestamp: [43:49]).

Mary Annette reflects on the importance of owning this painful history as a foundation for genuine healing and respect for Native cultures (Timestamp: [35:50]).

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6. Conclusion and Reflections

Don Wildman wraps up the episode by commending Mary Annette Pember for her insightful and accessible exploration of this critical chapter in American history. He emphasizes the strength and resilience of Native peoples, asserting that their enduring spirit is a testament to American strength and survival.

Notable Quote:

• Don Wildman: "Isn't it such the truth of this country that so many of the peoples who have been oppressed throughout this history are the strongest case for American strength?" [Timestamp: [35:50]]

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Final Thoughts

"The Truth About Native American Boarding Schools" is a compelling and necessary examination of a tragic chapter in American history. Through personal narratives and expert analysis, Don Wildman and Mary Annette Pember shed light on the profound impacts of forced assimilation policies and celebrate the resilience of Native American communities. This episode serves as both an educational resource and a call to acknowledge and rectify historical injustices.

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For more in-depth information, consider reading Mary Annette Pember's book, Medicine River: A Story of Survival and the Legacy of Indian Boarding Schools, which provides a personal lens into the enduring legacy of these institutions.

Transcript

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[Don Wildman]

Hello all, Just a note for me before we get into this.

[Mary Annette Pember]

I want to explain that this episode contains mention of racist policies, beliefs and.

[Don Wildman]

Actions and contains outdated strong language which has been used for Historical context and accuracy.

[Mary Annette Pember]

I'm looking at a glass plate negative. It has that eerie three dimensional quality so common in old photographs. But in so many ways it is an ordinary school portrait. Two rows of boys, students. There's a lot of them. First row seated, back one standing. They're posing in front of a two story brick building. A white wooden railing stretches along the second floor balcony. White posts support the overhang. The structure is flanked by trees, their leaves ghosted by the photograph's age. The rows of boys are flanked as well, but by two tall men, likely their teachers. If you look closer, the contrast is striking. The men are set apart by their attire, proper jackets and waistcoats. The boys, they're all wearing distinctive elements of traditional native dress. This is a group portrait of the first male students at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School, the so called flagship of Native American boarding schools in the United States. The photograph was taken shortly after their arrival on October 6th in 1879. Before, as we'll hear in this episode, their cultural identities, their connection with home, even family would be deliberately and forcibly stripped away.

[Don Wildman]

Dear listeners, greetings. Glad to have you with us today. I'm Don Wildman, your host and this is American History hit. Today's episode takes us down a path to face a difficult truth about our country. In the late 19th century, as our destiny had been made manifest and we stretched from sea to shining sea, the United States faced a problem of its own making. With so many Native Americans transferred off their traditional lands, forced to settle into a new way of life, their offspring would need to be, in the view of the federal government, Americanized, educated in the ways of a new nation. They lived in its language and customs. Only then, so the thinking went, could those children thrive in American society. There were grave challenges with such a project, of course. The so called Indian boarding school system was established in the 1880s based on a model institution in Pennsylvania. It systematically removed Native youth from from reservation lands to boarding schools throughout the country. Where English was spoken, where traditional garb was forbidden, where white society was the standard. This system, which eventually spread to Canada as well, lasted for more than a century and had devastating and even deadly effects on generations of Native Americans. Today, those effects are still being felt and more openly discussed. In 2024, the federal government under the Biden administration finally issued an apology to the Native American community. A new book gives a very personal history of this difficult subject. It is entitled Medicine A Story of Survival and the Legacy of Indian Boarding Schools. Its author is Mary Annette Pember, a member of the Ojibwe Nation from the Great Lakes region. And she is our guest today. Hello, Mary. Welcome to American History.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Hi, Don. Thanks for having me.

[Don Wildman]

Let's first confront the term Indian boarding school. Right away. We're dealing with the label which you've used in your book title, Unavoidably Embedded in History. I supp. Where does that title come from and how does this reflect the history we're about to talk about?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, that's embedded. Unavoidably embedded. I think that's the key phrase, you know, I mean, yeah, Indians. The term Indians is mentioned in the Constitution. I mean, when, you know, Columbus came here, he thought he was going to India and he mistakenly called everybody Indians. And that unfortunately has stuck. And it is, I mean, many organizations and a great deal of legislation. As I and as I mentioned, the term Indians is included in the Constitution. So even if we do sort of by, you know, socially, perhaps we might change the terms Native American or indigenous. These. If we're going to describe, for instance, an agency like the Indian Health Service, it's until Congress, I guess it would take quite a big operation, they could change it. But until then, it's the Indian Health Service. So we're kind of forced to use those terminologies.

[Don Wildman]

We're talking about a system of 500 schools that stretched over 38 states and last it for 150 years. Off camera, we've spoken just before. It's still going on in another form. The idea, as mentioned, was to assimilate Native American children and thus eventually their whole peoples into American society, into Western culture. Is that a fair summation?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes. And I, you know, it really predates when we think of, you know, Richard Pratt's famous Carlisle School, you know, which emerged after the Civil War, in fact, really from contact onward, as Europeans were quite interested in, in the lands here, they saw that the indigenous peoples, in order to live, you know, we needed a lot of land, for instance, to hunt and to gather and so on. And the idea quickly emerged, well, let's just form these people into Europeans in the sense of let's make them yeoman farmers. So even if you'll see in the writings of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, really the view, the plan that we all be that Native people be made into yeoman farmers and therefore wouldn't need as much land. So and even as early as, you know, as I said, during George Washington's administration, they did allocate monies to educate, quote, unquote, native children so that they could, you know, take on the life ways Of Europeans.

[Don Wildman]

Sure. And this has been already being done, certainly in South America. The whole idea of civilizing the savage and Christianizing nations was being done by missionaries. And this would have a lot to do with that.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Correct.

[Don Wildman]

The original setup of the official system in the United States happens, I suppose, In March of 1819, what's called the Civilization Act. It's a congressional act which authorized the president, I'm quoting, in every case where he shall judge improvement in the habits and condition of such Indians practicable to employ capable persons of good moral character to introduce to any tribe adjoining a frontier settlement to the arts of civilization. My God is wordy. But that's the law that's passed, or at least the act that is passed that provides federal funding. And we're off and running on a system that's really going to overtake Native American society, isn't it?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes. And it was primarily missionaries. They looked to Christian missionaries to do this work. Some Protestants. Protestants early on were more involved than Catholics were. Catholics came to dominate it later in the 19th century. But yes, during that time, I mean, it was, you know, real violation of the separation of church and state, if you will. I mean, a great deal of money was allocated directly to these missionaries to do this work.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. What did they mean by habits of civilized life?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, you know, again, farming, as we had mentioned before. And rather than sort of eschewing these itinerant lifestyles that a lot of native people had moving around and hunting and gathering and I think, you know, just this whole quote unquote, orderliness and work. You know, early on in some of my research, I was really surprised at how really disgusted that these missionaries would get that native people, they didn't spend enough time just working. And I mean, not working to really accomplish that much, but just in that sort of dull process of work. And they really felt that we should be. I guess perhaps native people should be more like European peasants, that they should be involved in work.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Mary Annette Pember]

And native people would. They would binge work, maybe, if they would do it. And sometimes they wouldn't work. And they would. They would often spend a lot of time sitting around and visiting and chatting. But in fact, they were doing important work. Work, you know, they were establishing, you know, agreement on various things and plans to move forward. But from the missionary's point of view, it was time wasted. So it was very much, you know, a change in worldview and, of course, in spirituality. Native folks kind of embrace an animist spirituality. But of course, for Christians, it's, you know, one God. So it was, you know, it was those things, I think those really a change in worldview that settlers and missionaries felt at the time would be beneficial to native people.

[Don Wildman]

We've already mentioned it, but it's important to establish what's happened here. You've changed an entire way of life by removing, in certain cases, nomadic tribes, a lot of nomadic tribes from those ways and then place them on reservations in separate worlds than they even lived in originally. And then on top of which, now you're taking those children, and this is the point of the boarding schools away from those reservations and moving them even further. So it's several levels of displacement of this whole society. And there's a point to this that by doing that you're going to wipe out any tie that these kids have to that original way of life and reorder their whole thinking into this white society world, which, of course, those of us raised in this white society world take for granted. But it's an entirely created system going to work from 9 to 5 and going to church on Sundays. All of that's an imposed structure that Native Americans, of course, didn't have as their culture, but now they're going to be taught in that from the ground up.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes. And, you know, we weren't, though, seen as people who would occupy anything above the lower rungs of that vision of society. We weren't, for instance, if we were to go to school and become educated, I don't think people saw us as leaders. They certainly didn't. We would not be, for instance, like attorneys or physicians. So really, boarding schools is not something that we should view in isolation. It's part of this whole assimilation policy and this goal, I think, that the federal government in many ways had and settlers had for native peoples. If, for instance, they had only done boarding schools to us, it might not have been so bad. But I often think of it as sort of a triple whammy, you know, especially after the Civil War when people were removed from their lands and then the allotment process in which people, you know, this private ownership was forced upon people, these small plots of land, and then also forcing the, you know, really coercing people into sending their kids to boarding school. So all of those things taken together are a part of the assimilation process.

[Don Wildman]

Right. And the enforcement of this whole system, which gradually becomes more and more official over the 19th century lands. In 1891, with the authorization of the Commissioner of Indian affairs to make and enforce by proper means the rules and regulations, again I'm quoting, as will secure the attendance of injured children. This is how official it gets. Just in case people are wondering, is this by choice? Is this a paternalistic nice thing that American society is doing? No, this is a forced removal and no kidding around.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah. And you often hear even, you know, elders that I've spoken to today will talk about Indian agents or what they call them, maybe truant officers running kids down. I mean, yeah, you were forced to go to school. They would arrive sometimes at your, you know, back in the, in the earlier part of the 20th century and the latter 19th century, they would come to your community and take your kids. Yeah. And you were, you were basically forced to send your children.

[Don Wildman]

Oh my God. Sorry, I shouldn't editorialize with my grunts and groans. But yeah, it gets really ugly. I'll be right back after this short break. Meantime, if you'd like us to cover anything specifically, if you have any ideas of subject matter we should be looking at, send us an email at. Ahh. Historyhit.com we'd love to hear from you.

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[Don Wildman]

1893 is a date that's important. The threat of removing food. Secretary of the Interior in his discretion there's regulations passed that will prevent the issuing of rations to the furnishing of subsistence either in money or kind. I'm sorry, I'm just reading off these quotes because it's astonishing to see how officialized it became, you know, in the laws in order to make sure that this happened. The truth is, you know, by this time Native Americans are completely reliant on the federal government for those rations. You know, they don't have set up systems for living in these new communities that they have. I mean, of course some are trying, but they're just getting used to this new way of life. And so the federal government has them over the fire on all this.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, you know, and it was, you know, of course it's a large country here, so all of these things occurred in varying degrees. But yeah, the plains tribes in particular, I think went off and thinks of those folks really they had needed a lot of land to live their lives and for those folks to be placed on these small plots of land and you know, cut off access to their means to feed themselves. Oh yeah, I think they became reliant much more on rations than some other folks did. And that was a threat of life or death if they were to remove, take people's rations away. People of course did their best and, and people resisted a great deal. It wasn't like people just sort of, you know, acquiesced to all this stuff. We see a lot of resistance. People would hide their children, you know, sort of informal acts of resistance. And then, you know, the Hopi tribe, there were several men who, you know, went to prison. Actually they placed them at Alcatraz. And at times the army was brought in a couple of times. So people did, you know, very much.

[Don Wildman]

Try to resist who was running the schools? How did that structure operate? And first of all, it wasn't 500 schools right off the bat. This is something that develops over time. So obviously the system was working as they grew, grew and grew. It was there a central authority employing a managerial staff throughout this.

[Mary Annette Pember]

For the federal schools? Yes, they did. And the missionaries, you know, that would be by various denominations. For instance, the Bureau of Catholic Indian Missions, which is still based in Washington, D.C. and they still have a nice townhouse there within view of the White House. You know, they would have some central authorities that would help in the administration of things. Yes, the federal government, you know, these schools. Yes. They were not like 500 schools all operating at once. It was over a span, you know, of decades.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. The majority of these schools were in the Great Lakes area, which is where you're from originally, correct?

[Mary Annette Pember]

That's where I'm from. Yeah. I'm from the Great Lakes area. That's one of the places that the schools were located. Oklahoma, Great Lakes area, and then, you know, further west of the Mississippi. There were some schools as well out in the east, but most of them were clustered around. Around those areas.

[Don Wildman]

47 in Oklahoma. I mean, the Indian Territory, so to speak. 43, New Mexico. How does this. I'm trying to get a hold on how it works. Exactly. So a child is brought there and then tell me about their experience as they enter in. Are they very, very small, like kindergarten age when they're brought there?

[Mary Annette Pember]

You know, at first they were very young kids were like maybe, yeah, kindergarten age. And then later they saw that that was really not very effective. You know, little kids really didn't do so well. Yeah. And then they did increase the age. I think people had eventually, you know, came to like eighth grade. But at first they did have very little kids.

[Don Wildman]

So it was like an orphanage almost. It operated.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, that would be a really good comparison, I think.

[Don Wildman]

And then they began. I guess this is much more than. I mean, I went to a boarding school for a few years. It's much more than just school. It's a whole community that you're a part of and your life is beyond the classroom. That's the whole point, really, because you're re. Engineering this society. Who paid for this system to exist?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, in many ways, Native people paid. It came out of treaty funds, trust and treaty funds that, you know, Congress had already allocated, which is kind of horrific. And then in the case of. It is horrific in the case of, for instance, some of the Christian boarding schools we paid yet again. So if People wanted to have their children. Often some of these missionary schools were located a little closer to native communities. So people, since they had to send their child to school and they didn't have many resources, if they would sign over a portion of the trust and treaty funds, then, you know, they could pay additional money for their children at least so they could see them occasionally.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah, I mentioned that native garb was denied. Also hair. The, you know, long hair had to be cut, names changed. I mean, there's a bit of an Ellis island thing going on here, isn't there?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Oh yeah.

[Don Wildman]

And then forbidden to speak native languages or practice, of course, native culture. This was enforced through strict discipline, right?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes, yes, very strict.

[Don Wildman]

Even Corporal.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Oh yeah. Children were beaten quite a bit. You know, people would be isolated, they would be, you know, incarcerated. There's even many of the old schools still have existing little jail cells where they would, they would put people, children who resisted or, you know, violated the rules.

[Don Wildman]

Was there communication with their parents? Were they allowed to have visitations and so forth.

[Mary Annette Pember]

They discouraged visitation. I think especially in the federal schools. Those were often located quite far from native communities. So people didn't have the means to travel even if they wanted to. And they really discouraged any in person visits or children leaving the schools to go home. Sometimes later they would. People went home like for quote, unquote, summer break. But initially they really insisted that children stay. People of course, did correspond quite a bit.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. And they weren't well taken care of, generally speaking. Malnutrition, starvation, sickness, high death rates.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes, well, and especially I think early on they kind of unwittingly created this perfect environment, you know, to share, to share disease, communicable diseases. And actually one of the people I interview for the book, this academic mention is he describes it as like a disease synergy. You know, you've got people, children who are already, you know, kind of, you know, frightened and they're, you know, demoralized and their immune systems may be compromised, placed in then these like alien environments and given food that they're not accustomed to. And the schools really did not receive the funding that they should have received. And so they often. The food was really substandard. And also, you know, the things like cleanliness and so on, people would share like towels and washcloths. And so as I said, it was just sort of. They created this perfect vector for sharing diseases. And kids would get sick pretty quickly. It happened often. Tuberculosis was one of the main diseases. And actually, you know, a lot of children did die at the schools. But I think, you know, there was a point at, for instance, in which Colonel Pratt, the director of Carlisle School, saw that this really did not look good politically. And, you know, for his. All these students to be dying. So he actually, they began sending children home when they were very ill. They would put them on, which is amazing, doing it. They would put them on public transportation and send them home, and they would die at home. But not only would they die at home, they would carry the diseases back to the communities.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Mary Annette Pember]

And so then they would. You know, there hasn't been. That's something that we need, I think, to look at more closely, you know, how the role that boarding schools played in a vector of tuberculosis in Indian country, especially at the end of the 19th century.

[Don Wildman]

You've mentioned Colonel Pratt, and I did so in the opening. A kind of model school begins this in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. His motto, this is as harsh as it gets. Kill the Indian, save the man. That was the quote that he was famous for. And it was that system that was then replicated throughout the country in various forms by various groups and then taken over by the federal government, or at least overseen by the federal government in so much as how it would be funded and so forth, and systematized. And that's how it really grows. The education, I want to emphasize, not academic. This was really not about training kids academically to get smart and go to school, to higher education. This is about farming and artisan crafts. Right?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes. You know, and this phrase that's all attributed to Pratt, kill the Indian to save the man. You know, we have to. I mean, in all fairness, one has to. You know, I think look at the times in which this was uttered. You know, this is really seen and I'm, you know, embraced as a far more, you know, generous, humane treatment of Native peoples rather than outright extermination, because that was the alternative. So, you know, Pratt was able to see the humanity of Native people. He was really seen as a very progressive man, and he was very, you know, very well placed in these organizations that were kind of described as Friends of the Indians, and there were a number of these organizations. So he was seen very much as, you know, as what he was doing was an expression of Christianity. He was showing mercy to these people. So rather. Yes, I said, rather than just kill them outright. Well, let's just take them. And, you know, they actually, there are these Indians, they make perfectly good servants and so on. I mean, they can do so. And as you said, we weren't educated to. We were not intended to be attorneys or to be doctors and so on. We were like meant to be servants. We were meant to be farmers, to do skills kind of, you know, with our hands. So we were to serve really, if you will, the greater goal of capitalism at the that time.

[Don Wildman]

It's off subject, but I've always wondered was the idea that the reservations would eventually be obsolete and Native American people would then have these jobs and sort of disappear into American society fully assimilated. Was that the notion?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, it certainly was. And it actually expressed itself later in a policy in the 1950s. I think it first emerged in the 40s called termination. And that was so that we would be. Well, and we can kind of almost see it expressed in today's administration, but that there would be no more sort of. Everything would be quote, unquote, merit based. There would be no more of this quote, unquote, special treatment. Native people would just become. We would just be absorbed into the population.

[Don Wildman]

Wow. And so this system of boarding schools really was integral to that, wouldn't it be?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Oh, very much. And one of the things that I was really struck with as I was doing my research, there was very little thought given to what people would do after they left the boarding schools. For instance, if you wanted to be a farmer, well, you know, you didn't have any generational wealth in which to invest. I mean, one doesn't enter farming, you know, empty handed. You know, there was very little thought given to how people then would make lives for themselves, having no wealth to begin with. And of course, that was the big stumbling block. There are very few programs, but not much. It was kind of this magical thinking, if you will, that people, we would just sort of emerge and, you know, become equal players.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Mary Annette Pember]

In America.

[Don Wildman]

And ideally speaking, as far as the government's concerned, a child has come in not knowing English. So they leave speaking primarily English and wearing primarily Western clothing with probably short hair. That's the model student who then returns to their community, understanding their place in the world. I mean, that's kind of the idea, right?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, yeah, very much so.

[Don Wildman]

You tell this story. The book is called Medicine River. From a very personal standpoint, can you explain that?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes. My mother and all of her siblings and her parents and all of her relatives all went to boarding schools. My mother went to a school in the Bad River Reservation, Wisconsin, and it was run by the Franciscan nuns Catholic sect of priests and nuns, and they called it the Sister school. So at that time, when my mother went in the late 20s, you know, we're thinking about, you know, the Depression years. You know, one of the big drivers for her to attend to board at the school was, you know, poverty. There was really not enough food to go around. And so. And her parents had. The relationship had dissolved, so her grandparents were really kind of forced to send their grandkids to the school. Now, some people did attend during the day and then went home, particularly this particular. We see this happening in the Catholic schools and some of the Christian schools because they would be located closer to reservation. So if you live close enough, your child could go to the school during the day and then come home. And of course, people. People preferred that, but a lot of people just. It was actually poverty that had their children stay there. They couldn't afford to feed them. And so it was actually, in some ways, you know, and I think that a lot of these Catholic schools often try to paint that picture. And I think, in fact, they did serve as the stopgap measure at that time. But of course, they were also instrumental in creating the system that demanded or really created the system in which people could no longer feed their own children.

[Don Wildman]

Your mother, whose name was Bernice Rabideau. Am I correct in that pronunciation?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Correct.

[Don Wildman]

Five years old when she was sent to the St. Mary Catholic Indian boarding school. And she told you about these stories, or was this something you had to go looking for?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Both. When I was a little girl, some of my. And I'm the only girl. I'm the youngest. And maybe that might have played into it. I mean, she would talk to me. She would tell me the sister school stories, sort of my earliest memories, really. And she would tell me about. She really saw her. She almost sort of embedded it, almost as a fairy story, if you will, a nursery story. And. And she was always the person who triumphed. But she would tell me her. Her experiences at the sister school and. And the unfairness and the beatings, and also the way that she and her siblings resisted, which was really inspiring to me.

[Don Wildman]

How long was she in the school?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, she was there until she graduated, so 8th grade from 5 till about 13. And then she went to a federal school. Then she went to Flandreau Indian Boarding School, which is in South Dakota.

[Don Wildman]

Okay. And how did she describe the education? I'm curious.

[Mary Annette Pember]

You know, again, it was a lot. The big emphasis on work, on housework, and, you know, the girls stayed in and they cooked and they cleaned, a lot of scrubbing.

[Don Wildman]

So it was like one big home economics course.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah, there you go. Exactly. That's.

[Don Wildman]

But a not fun one.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yeah. Like, my auntie was Famous for tatting lace, you know, and I certainly, I mean, they would teach them these skills that in fact didn't even, you know, they were out of fashion and for instance, like harness making and these things that, you know, there was no. When they would leave, there would really be very little market value for some of these skills.

[Don Wildman]

Okay.

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[Don Wildman]

You mentioned the beatings and you said that in a sort of passing fashion like that was the accepted fact of it is that corporal punishment was part of your day.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, you know, and let's. Again, let's be fair. Corporal punishment was. Was done in schools. I mean, I am as you know, I'm. And when I was a child, I remember teachers hitting us. Yeah, I was fortunate I didn't get hit. But I remember it was accepted to be quote unquote, spanked. So we're talking about into the 1960s, there was Corporal punishment in mainstream schools. So, you know, it was a much different approach I think also to child rearing. Spare the rod and spoil the child. I mean, that was really seen as a responsible way to Train children. Now, that being said, they did it with particular enthusiasm often in these boarding schools. And there was no oversight, you know, like as far as if anybody would be particularly cruel or really, you know, enjoy meeting out these punishments. So there's no oversight.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. Sister Catherine was in charge of this place, I suppose. Right.

[Mary Annette Pember]

She was the Mother Superior during my mother's years at Sister School. Yes.

[Don Wildman]

And I have a quote on my brief that says she called them dirty, lazy, barely human creatures unfit to raise their own children. That's how she looked at Native American parents.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, my mother always the word. The two were dirty and Indian, always together. She would describe that the nuns sometimes would take them, quote, unquote, to town. I assume she meant Ashland. And they would take them and they would. Well, and they would look for donations, you know, on the street. And the nuns would obviously, well, please, these are these poor, dirty Indians that we're serving. Can't you donate something to help us with that?

[Don Wildman]

How much did American. The American public know about this?

[Mary Annette Pember]

I don't think, you know, generally. I mean, I think if you lived nearby, you knew about it. But I think people really saw it as a merciful response to an entrenched problem. I don't think people took too deep of a look at it. No.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah.

[Mary Annette Pember]

And I think it was just sort of, by that time, you know, particularly even in. I mean, you know, you want to talk about. About the beginning of the 20th century, it was just seen as was an accepted part of everyday life. And I think people saw it, as I said, sort of a responsible response to what was going on in the world at that time.

[Don Wildman]

How long did the federal funding of the system continue?

[Mary Annette Pember]

It's still going on. There's still the Bureau of Indian Education. So there are some schools. There's a handful of boarding schools that still exist in Indian country. And some of them are at day schools, and some of them offer boarding. And some people, you know, I mean, they're all pretty much. You know, the tribes have a great deal of influence. There's a great deal of influence in the operation of the schools. But again, underfunded, of course. Often the facilities are not very good, and often it kind of ends up being. I think. I think of it as like the child care choice of last resort.

[Don Wildman]

Right.

[Mary Annette Pember]

I mean, I think if people are doing poorly at home, maybe the child is having trouble for whatever reason, like, oh, let's send them off to boarding school and see if that helps. So people still. I mean, it's. They're still seen as A refuge. And for some people, they really, it's a family legacy to go to some of the schools. And a lot of people will talk about that. They really learned about Native culture by going to the school. So it's, it's, you know, as I said, you know, Native folks are incredibly adaptable people. And so, you know, we have just stubbornly held on to who we are, I think in a way that we stand out, if you will, globally, that our insistence, you know, on remaining who we are, I mean, it may be one of the greatest survival stories in the world. And that we have held onto our language and our cultures and spiritualities to the degree that we have, that's phenomenal.

[Don Wildman]

Isn't it such the truth of this country that so many of the peoples who have been oppressed throughout this history are the strongest case for American strength? You know, like they're, they're the, the muscle of this nation in so many ways. If only we would embrace that fact. It's incredible.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Our American exceptionalism has been surviving and remaining. Remaining who we are, you know, and even though our exceptionalism has not, has until recently not really demonstrated itself in terms of, you know, economic well being and, you know, I think we do. No, we have many accomplished Native people now, of course, in leadership positions and in, you know, professionals. We do occupy those places now, which is when one takes a historical look, I think we are people to be imitated, if you will. I mean, we are really. That we have, you know, the ways in which we have resisted the passive resistance that we exhibited is really inspiring. And as I said, within, we did so with very little resources. So I'm constantly amazed at the kinds of things that people did to survive.

[Don Wildman]

Yes. A little more about the 20s. Merriam Report comes out in 1928. This is a federal report, is that right? The commission that exposes the conditions of these schools.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes, and he's kind of. It's credited to John Collier, although there were a lot of other people involved. Yeah, they did. You know, they actually spent. He had a team of people, very astute people. He had like, you know, the statisticians and so on. And they visited, they went all over Indian country and looked at the schools and, you know, made some evaluations and some recommendations. And of course, universally they found they were just so terribly underfunded and under resourced and the children were used primarily as manual labor and they didn't really spend very much time receiving education. They spent a lot of time in work and manual labor and really doing the work to Feed themselves often. A lot of these were farms. They had to produce their own food.

[Don Wildman]

And the exposing of these kinds of things. This becomes central to the building of a resistance movement on a broader basis throughout the 20th century, right up into the 60s, which is when so much happens for so many different kinds of people. But certainly for Native Americans in the 1934 Indian Reorganization act, there's a focus that shifts this to community education. That's what's happening here. I just want to kind of grasp this for the. On. On behalf of the audience. We go from basically this sort of brainwashing, beat it out of them idea from generation up from youth upwards to a realization later on a. That's inhumane, but also probably not effective. That indeed these kids can be better educated in their own communities. So let's make that work. Is that a fair way of looking at the path of this?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Well, I think also if we look socially in the United States, what was going on with sort of the view of child rearing and child education was that it was better. It was really seen as better to have children, you know, live with their families. Imagine that. And I don't know why it had to take so much research, just come to that conclusion, but apparently it did. And so they really. At the end of that, it was really. Education was much more effective for everybody if children were to remain at home with their families. And then there was, you know, the. Is. You know, we look at the Indian Reorganization act, there was more, you know, the end, which really was the predecessor of, you know, self determination. But the schools, they were pretty slow to change. You know, I mean, people. They were still operated very much, I think, in the same philosophy. It was encouraged that people be allowed to sort of express themselves in their, you know, in their own culture and so on. But it didn't really take hold that much. I mean, there were some really stellar examples, I think, in the Southwest and so on, but for the most part, I think it was kind of business as usual.

[Don Wildman]

Sure. 1950s, as we mentioned, the American Indian Movement, AIM. AIM fights to reclaim education in the central. One of their central tenets of this movement is to claim that are they successful in that? How do things change?

[Mary Annette Pember]

And I think, no, that's. I think we would situate that in the 60s and not in the 50s. And these were people who. It was another assimilation program called relocation, in which they would pay people you could move, they would pay. They would give you, like, first and last month's rent and maybe give you some context in the city to move from the reservation to cities. And the idea was, you know, that would lure people to the city. So there were many people. And of course, all it did, people basically exchanged rural poverty for urban poverty. And a lot of that created an environment that gave birth to people who founded aim, the American Indian Movement. And they did found. They found different schools, you know. Yeah, that was conceived. A lot of these people were boarding school survivors. And so, of course, that became one of the. One of the elements that they took aim at. No pun intended.

[Don Wildman]

No intended. Yeah, I think they thought about that.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Like, what is it? The Heart of the Earth school in, like, Minneapolis. They did some schools for the, you know, the community and, you know, imbued it with some, you know, cultural work and with language and so on. And I think, you know, they just created, you know, a lot of awareness and challenged, you know, the status quo, which was, you know, their brethren among the black community and Hispanic communities were also doing.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. 1975 Indian self determination and Education Assistance act is the official move by way of the government, federal government, to allow tribes to control their own schools. Thus, I suppose many of these boarding schools are closed at that point, or at least reformed. One of the most incredible and shameful aspects of this is the realization that so many died and the discovery of these burial sites on these grounds. There's a documentary I just watched a little while ago about the Canadian school system happening, which is so related to what happened in America. There's around 74 of these burial sites accounting for about a thousand deaths. And I'm sure they don't know how many there really are.

[Mary Annette Pember]

You know, when we think so, we think of 500 schools. Okay, over a course of how many years. And we, you know, let's think about the time period. So a child dies from disease in, let's say, Oklahoma, and the child is from a community perhaps 500, 600 miles away. Well, the child dies. What are you going to do? I mean, they don't have any resources. You know, they're going to bury the child. Maybe sometimes they will send the child home. But primary, you know, if the child is dead, they're going to bury the child. And then they will mark the grave with perhaps markers that, you know, are not stable. You know, perhaps just wooden markers. So, of course, these. They pass away. So there's. I think there's quite a number of small, you know, for even these small schools. You know, just to give you an idea of it was such a thing among Christian missionaries to operate boarding schools. I mean, that Was, you know, considered part of the Great Commission among Christians, you know, to go out and serve the savages and to civilize them. I mean, it was really being a good Christian. So it was like. Even Unitarians ran a couple of schools. Schools, which I think is kind of remarkable, although they were dismal failures.

[Don Wildman]

I think Quakers were there in the early years.

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes, all the Quakers were big. Quakers were big. So, okay, so you have these schools and you have these adjacent graveyards and children are buried there and they're marked with these inadequate markers which frequently weather away, and even the school weathers away. So there are some locations of schools that we don't even, you know, we perhaps might pass all the time and not even know that we're passing them. So, you know, I think there's many, many small cemeteries located around, and I think Oklahoma in particular is probably many of them. Yeah, so that's, you know, I mean, that's really kind of the gist of it. I think, you know, the implication in some of the Canadian reports that we see is that, you know, they describe them as quote, unquote, mass graves, which to me implies that maybe that was an act of mass murder in which they were, you know, like, for instance, during wartime in which they were, like, people were killed and then thrown into a grave.

[Don Wildman]

And I don't.

[Mary Annette Pember]

I don't think that happened. It may have, but I have never found any documentation that happened. But, you know, there are a lot. There are a lot of unmarked burial grounds.

[Don Wildman]

Yeah. Mary, I want to talk about one last thing, and this sounds hopeful in a way. The Senate Committee on Indian affairs introduced the Indian Boarding School Healing act to create a space for the federal government to create records and create mental health programs for victims. Is this in existence and operating?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Yes, and it actually is carrying over to the current, you know, the current congressional session. And, you know, I think they have changed the bill. It was initially introduced several years ago when Deb Haaland was a representative, I think, from New Mexico. She was among the people. And initially, you know, it had also subpoena power to subpoena, you know, some of the Christian boarding schools to release their records. And there's no, you know, sort of, like, how to say, reparations involved. And so, yes, in another form, it has. It has gone through a few iterations, but it has been being considered again, and I think the subpoena power is taken away, but primarily to, you know, to gather people's stories and to put them in the record and also, you know, to offer you know, healing for people in the form of like whatever methods that people, the community would see appropriate, you know, if they be that mental, mainstream mental health or sort of traditional mental health resources. And I think, you know, just to really own for this country to own what happened versus Canada has done a great deal, you know, since the early part of this century. They have made substantial financial reparations to their indigenous communities and made, you know, a public apology. The country actually apologized, the prime Minister did in 2008. So it's taken us until 2024 to receive that apology. But to which there's really, there are no deliverables attached to this apology. So this would attach some deliverables, you know, but as I said, not in the form of reparations that people have not really gone there.

[Don Wildman]

Can I rave about your book?

[Mary Annette Pember]

Oh, please.

[Don Wildman]

It's so well written. It's really, really accessible prose. It's a very strong piece of writing. And I found myself fascinated by your story and your mom's story and the way that you use that as a lens to get us educated about this whole issue, which for most white Americans certainly is such a blind spot for us in this country's history. So thank you very much. The book I'm talking about is called Medicine River A Story of Survival and the Legacy of Indian Boarding Schools. It's fascinating. Mary Annette Pember is the author and has been our guest today. It's been great to meet you. Thank you so much.

[Mary Annette Pember]

MARY oh, thank you so much, Don.

[Don Wildman]

Hello folks. Thanks for listening to American History hit. Each week we release new episodes, two new episodes dropping Mondays and Thursdays. All kinds of great content like mysterious missing colonies to power powerful political movements to some of the biggest battles across the centuries. Don't miss an episode by hitting like and follow. You help us out, which is great, but you'll also be reminded when our shows are on. And while you're at it, share with a friend. American history hit with me, Don Wildman. So grateful for your support. Bye for now.

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