The Carter Years | 444 Days | 4

Summary

American History Tellers
Episode: The Carter Years | 444 Days | 4
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Lindsey Graham
Guest: Mark Bowden, author of Guests of the Ayatollah: The Iran Hostage Crisis, the First Battle in America's War with Militant Islam

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Introduction

In the fourth and final installment of the series on the challenging years of the Carter administration, Lindsey Graham delves into the tumultuous period of the Iran Hostage Crisis. Joined by renowned journalist and author Mark Bowden, the episode explores the intricate dynamics between the United States and Iran, the hostage situation that ensnared American citizens, and the profound political repercussions that ultimately led to President Jimmy Carter's defeat in the 1980 elections.

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Background: Iran Before the Crisis

[05:13] Lindsey Graham:
"So I don't think the hostage crisis can be properly understood without really having a sense of what was going on in Iran."

Mark Bowden provides a comprehensive overview of Iran's political landscape leading up to the crisis. In 1979, Iran was embroiled in a revolution that saw the overthrow of the Shah, an event orchestrated by a coalition comprising dissidents, religious zealots, Islamic clergy, communists, and socialists. This diverse alliance united primarily in their opposition to the Shah, who had been a staunch ally of the United States.

[05:28] Mark Bowden:
"The Shah had been overthrown early in the year of 1979... there were people who wanted Western style liberal democracy in Iran."

With the Shah's departure, Iran entered a provisional government phase, awaiting a constitutional convention in the summer of 1980. The uncertainty and power struggles among the various factions set the stage for heightened tensions, both domestically and internationally.

[06:23] Lindsey Graham:
"And what was the United States interest in Iran at this time?"

[06:27] Mark Bowden:
"Iran was an important trading partner for oil, and it was considered to be kind of a bastion of the Western world at a time of Soviet expansionism."

Iran held significant strategic value for the U.S., not only as a major oil supplier but also as a key adversary against Soviet influence in the Near East. President Carter's administration aimed to maintain diplomatic relations with Iran, hoping that the emerging government would continue friendly ties.

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The Takeover of the American Embassy

[07:04] Lindsey Graham:
"So there was initially an expectation that that's what would happen here."

On November 4, 1979, tensions reached a boiling point when Iranian students breached the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, escalating from a planned sit-in to an outright takeover. Initially, the protesters sought to make a statement, but under the influence of religious leaders known as mullahs, the situation rapidly deteriorated into a hostage crisis.

[07:27] Mark Bowden:
"The students themselves just wanted to make a statement. They wanted to do a sit in that would last a couple days."
[08:35] Lindsey Graham:
"Could you tell US what a mullah is versus the ayatollah versus the Shah, what the structures are."

Bowden clarifies the hierarchy and roles within the Iranian religious and political framework, distinguishing between mullahs (religious leaders), the Ayatollah (the highest-ranking cleric), and the Shah (the secular monarch supported by the U.S.).

[09:22] Lindsey Graham:
"So these mullahs who are looking to take advantage of a public protest moment made more of the attack on the embassy than a sit in."

The takeover was not merely a protest but a strategic move by the mullahs to consolidate power and eliminate political adversaries. Public sentiment in Tehran largely supported the embassy's seizure, fueled by fears of a possible U.S. intervention to reinstate the Shah.

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Carter Administration's Response

[11:56] Mark Bowden:
"Initially, the Carter administration assumed that the provisional government in Iran would do what they had done before, which is chase the students or the protesters off the grounds."

President Carter faced a complex dilemma. The administration initially hoped for a peaceful resolution, expecting the provisional government to regain control. However, the mullahs' interference transformed the situation into a prolonged hostage standoff.

[12:50] Mark Bowden:
"When it became clear that it was a hostage situation, the president basically faced a dilemma..."

Carter contemplated various strategies, including diplomatic negotiations and potential military interventions. The risk of endangering the hostages weighed heavily on decision-making processes, leading the administration to prioritize diplomatic channels over immediate military action.

[13:48] Mark Bowden:
"They were very much at sea because the things were in such flux in Iran."
[15:04] Mark Bowden:
"The CIA had very little involvement in propping up the Shah. Their primary mission in Iran was to spy on Soviet Union missile sites."

Despite misconceptions about the CIA's role in Iran, Bowden clarifies that their primary focus was intelligence gathering against Soviet activities, not direct political manipulation. Nevertheless, distrust and misinformation about U.S. intentions persisted among Iranians.

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The Rescue Mission and Its Failure

[34:56] Mark Bowden:
"The idea was to fly eight helicopters to a rendezvous point in the desert well outside of Tehran at which point the helicopters...would fly them out to a nearby airstrip which a battalion of Army Rangers was going to raid and seize."

In a desperate bid to save the hostages, the Carter administration orchestrated a covert rescue operation known as Operation Eagle Claw. The plan involved multiple helicopters and special forces targeting the embassy to free the hostages.

[36:37] Mark Bowden:
"It was a disaster. The eight helicopters encountered problems flying across the desert... one of them clipped one of the fixed wing tankers that had landed in the desert and it exploded, killing 8 of the service members."

The mission disastrously failed due to mechanical issues exacerbated by harsh desert conditions. A catastrophic collision led to the loss of lives and the abandonment of the operation, further tarnishing Carter's administration.

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Political Consequences

[38:31] Mark Bowden:
"Ronald Reagan was able to portray Jimmy Carter as a weak president, as someone who was overmatched by this little country of Iran."

The failed rescue mission significantly damaged Carter's reputation, highlighting perceived weaknesses in his leadership. Opponent Ronald Reagan capitalized on this, framing Carter as ineffectual and unable to safeguard American interests.

[40:28] Mark Bowden:
"When that was negotiated by the Carter administration, the Iranian students, despite Carter, refused to release the host hostages and sign off on the deal, literally until the day that Ronald Reagan was inaugurated."

The prolonged crisis, coupled with the failed rescue attempt, eroded public confidence in Carter's presidency. This loss of trust was a pivotal factor in his defeat during the 1980 presidential elections, paving the way for Reagan's ascendancy.

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Conclusion

Mark Bowden's insightful exploration of the Iran Hostage Crisis underscores the intricate interplay of geopolitical strategy, domestic politics, and human emotion. The episode vividly captures how a single event can ripple through international relations and reshape the course of a nation's leadership. President Carter's earnest attempts to resolve the crisis diplomatically, juxtaposed with the operational failures and political maneuvering, offer a profound lesson in the complexities of governance and international diplomacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Mark Bowden [05:28]:
  "There were people who wanted Western style liberal democracy in Iran."

• Mark Bowden [07:59]:
  "So they had all banded together to depose the Shah, who had fled the country."

• Mark Bowden [11:56]:
  "They were going to try to react immediately to this assault on international diplomacy, that they were going to try to let things cool off and figure out a way to peacefully resolve the problem."

• Mark Bowden [34:56]:
  "So the idea was to land eight helicopters in the desert, refuel, load the rescue force on the helicopters, and then fly the helicopters to hiding places just outside of the city."

• Mark Bowden [38:31]:
  "Ronald Reagan was able to portray Jimmy Carter as a weak president, as someone who was overmatched by this little country of Iran."

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Looking Ahead

In the next season, American History Tellers will journey to the early 20th century, exploring how President Teddy Roosevelt and contemporaries addressed the challenges of rapid industrialization, urbanization, and corruption, ushering in the Progressive Era's sweeping reforms.

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Credits:
Hosted by Lindsey Graham, Executive Produced by Wondery Team.

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Hey, history buffs. If you can't get enough of the captivating stories we uncover on American historytellers, you'll love the exclusive experience of Wondry. Dive even deeper into the past with ad free episodes, early access to new seasons, and bonus content that brings history to life like never before. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts and embark on an unparalleled journey through America's most pivotal moments.

[Mark Bowden]

There has been no confrontation as far as we know.

[Lindsey Graham]

Imagine it's December 26, 1980. You're sitting in your living room in Bethesda, Maryland. You switch off the television and sigh. For months now, you've tuned in every night to see what's going on with the Americans being held hostage in Iran. You've watched in horror as the news broadcast footage of protesters chanting Death to America and the American hostages were paraded in front of the cameras. You can only imagine what they're going through as the glow of the television fades. Your teenage son comes into the room with a notebook plops on the sofa beside you. Hey, dad, can you help me with my homework? Yeah. What's the assignment? Supposed to write a paper about the hostage crisis. Oh. Well, what about it? It's damn disgrace, is all I can say. Why can't we just go in and get them? Well, President Carter has tried that, and it was a failure. All we achieved was killing some of our own. You shake your head, thinking of the disastrous military rescue operation earlier in the year. You wonder what, if anything, Jimmy Carter is planning to do now. It seems like he's sitting on his hands while American citizens rot in captivity. Well, if we can't go in and free them, what? What do the Iranians want? Can we pay a ransom? Well, that's the idea. From what I've seen on the news, they want the money we've been keeping in US banks returned to them. See, we froze their assets when they first took the hostages, and now they want it back for their war with Iraq. But I say to hell with them. We shouldn't pay them a cent. So what's left then? Diplomacy, I suppose. Carter and those good old boys he's got in the White House need to figure something else out, and soon. This has gone on too long. The American people are sick of it. I know I am. That's why we voted him out last month. Maybe it's going to take someone like Reagan to finally get it done. Your son gives you a perplexed look and then gets up to leave. You know, you weren't very helpful just now. He's probably more confused than ever before, but you don't know what else to tell him. More than 50 of your fellow Americans have been held hostage for over a year, and there seems to be no end in sight. You're deeply frustrated by Jimmy Carter's inability to bring them home, but for the hostage's sake, you hope there's some sort of deal being made before a whole new administration has to start over with negotiations.

[Chico Felitti]

When a young woman named Desiree vanishes without a trace, the trail leads to Kat Torres, a charismatic influencer with millions of followers. But behind the glamorous posts and inspirational quotes, a sinister truth unravels. Binge all episodes of Don't Cross Cat early and Ad Free on Wondery.

[Lindsey Graham]

Lamont Jones is shattered when his cousin dies just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. Wondry presents Death county pa, A chilling true story of corruption and cover ups. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Foreign I'm Lindsey Graham and this is American Historytellers. Our history, your story. In December 1980, a national audience watched as several of the American hostages being held in Iran appeared before television cameras at a gathering their captors arranged for the Christmas holiday. One by one, the hostages were allowed to speak to the cameras, sending messages to their loved ones. After 14 months of waiting for the government to somehow secure the release of the hostages, the American public had grown weary. Carter's inability to end the crisis would contribute to his crushing defeat to Ronald Reagan in November of 1980. But Carter remained determined to see the hostage's release before he left office and continued to aggressively pursue a deal with Iranian authorities. Less than a month after this Christmas broadcast, on inauguration day in January 1981, Jimmy Carter received word that the hostages were finally on their way home. Here with me now to discuss this crisis and what it cost the Carter administration is journalist Mark Bowden, author of Guests of the Ayatollah the Iran Hostage Crisis, the First Battle in America's War with Militant Islam. Mark Bowden, welcome to American Historytellers.

[Mark Bowden]

Thank you.

[Lindsey Graham]

So I don't think the hostage crisis can be properly understood without really having a sense of what was going on in Iran. In the fall of 1979, Iran was in the throes of revolution, but it was not really the Islamist state we know today what was happening.

[Mark Bowden]

Well, the Shah had been overthrown early in the year of 1979, and among that group who accomplished it were a coalition of dissidents, religious fanatics, Islamic clergy, communists, socialists. There were people who wanted Western style liberal democracy in Iran. The one thing that they all had in common was their hatred of the Shah and his regime. So they had all banded together to depose the Shah, who had fled the country. So in the months afterwards, a provisional government was created just to run things in the country until a constitutional convention could be held in the summer of 1980. So things were very much in flux. All the various factions opposed to the Shah were all basically vying for position to create the new Iranian state.

[Lindsey Graham]

And what was the United States interest in Iran at this time?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, the United States, of course, had a long relationship with Iran dating back to the end of World War II. Iran was an important trading partner for oil, and it was considered to be kind of a bastion of the Western world at a time of Soviet expansionism. So in that part of the world, in the Near East, Iran had enormous strategic value for the United States. When the Shah was deposed, the United States under President Jimmy Carter, had made the decision to try to work with whatever government emerged from the cauldron of the revolution. So the embassy in Tehran was up and running, the hopes being that whoever assumed power would retain some relationship with the United States.

[Lindsey Graham]

And it was here at the embassy on November 4, 1979, that a protest approaches and then enters the compound grounds. This wasn't, though, the first time protesters had made it through the gates here. How did US Officials initially handle these incoming students?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, initially, they basically retreated to secure positions on the embassy grounds and decided to await the intervention of the Iranian authorities. What had happened months earlier was people had overrun the embassy grounds, and within hours, the Iranian police or army had escorted them off the premises.

[Lindsey Graham]

So.

[Mark Bowden]

So there was initially an expectation that that's what would happen here.

[Lindsey Graham]

What do we know about the plan hatched by these students initially? What did they want at first?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, the students themselves just wanted to make a statement. They wanted to do a sit in that would last a couple days. In fact, they called it a set in. And what had happened was there were mullahs. We're talking now about a faction in Iran who made a decision very early on to seize this moment. It created an outcry in the city, and it gave them both what the students wanted initially, which is a lot of attention, but also a growing realization that they could leverage this moment into something bigger and more important.

[Lindsey Graham]

Your mention of the mullahs gives me an opportunity to ask for some definitions here. Could you tell US what a mullah is versus the ayatollah versus the Shah, what the structures are.

[Mark Bowden]

Sure. You know, mullahs are religious leaders. These are the clerics. And they range from people who would have their own religious community all the way up to the people surrounding the ayatollah, who was the leader of the clerics. So the Ayatollah Khomeini was the top mullah. The Shah was essentially the king that the United States had helped prop up in the early 1950s and who had ruled Iran as a secular leader up until the point where he was ousted in early 1979.

[Lindsey Graham]

So these mullahs who are looking to take advantage of a public protest moment made more of the attack on the embassy than a sit in. How did the general public in Iran react to the takeover of the embassy?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, it's hard to gauge what everybody felt, but many, many people came out in the streets to support the takeover of the embassy. There was a widespread fear in Tehran that the United States, which had propped up the Shah for decades, was plotting to return him to Iran and basically overthrow the revolution. So when the students targeted the American embassy, a lot of people felt that this was an opportunity to prevent the United States from pulling off this counter revolution.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, there's a fair bit of history here that we probably should talk about. Why would many Iranians have this fear that the US Was going to intervene?

[Mark Bowden]

Because the Shah was essentially an American creation. His rule over decades had been deeply supported by the United States, and he was seen as a puppet. So when the Shah was overthrown, there was almost this expectation that the United States would somehow step in or Great Britain or another of the Western powers to restore him to power, because he had played an important role as far as the Western world was concerned in, you know, shoring up their interests in that part of the world.

[Lindsey Graham]

How did the US Government react to the Iranian revolution at first?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, I think it's fair to say, Lindsey, that the United States was taken by surprise. No one anticipated the overthrow of the Shah. In fact, the CIA had its own work to do in Iran, which had actually nothing to do with what was happening in their domestic politics. So the United States basically had relied upon the Shah to maintain himself in power. And so his overthrow came as a shock. And I think, you know, these things happen in the world. The United States reacted by trying to maintain a presence in Tehran, trying to understand the forces that were at work, trying to position themselves to maybe influence the kind of government that would emerge from the Constitutional Convention. But the Bottom line was they didn't want to leave Iran. They wanted to create a relationship with whoever assumed power.

[Lindsey Graham]

But that didn't work too well, or at least a wrench was thrown in the works when the embassy was overrun. What was the Carter administration's reaction to this moment?

[Mark Bowden]

Initially, the Carter administration assumed that the provisional government in Iran would do what they had done before, which is chase the students or the protesters off the grounds and restore the embassy to put it back on its feet. I think hope began to diminish in the first few hours of the event because the ayatollah, who had not been informed of the takeover of the embassy and who initially ordered that the students be expelled from the embassy grounds, changed his mind. And I think it's because he was advised, because of the great showing in the streets, that this was a moment that the clerics, the mullahs, could use to their political advantage.

[Lindsey Graham]

And then, I guess, let's roll the tape forward a bit. What was the next step that the Carter administration took when it became clear this was a hostage situation?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, when it became clear that it was a hostage situation, the president basically faced a dilemma, and I think he had choices to make. You know, one option would have been to issue an ultimatum to Iran, perhaps prepare for punitive action that would try to force the provisional government or the mullahs to release the hostages. But any one of these options, whether we're talking about pressure or punitive raids, ran the risk of the hostages being imprisoned and executed, which is one of the things that the students said. So emotions were very high in Iran. And I think the Carter administration made the decision that rather than try to react immediately to this assault on international diplomacy, that they were going to try to let things cool off and figure out a way to peacefully resolve the problem. Problem?

[Lindsey Graham]

Did they have some ideas of how to peacefully resolve the problem? What were their first moves?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, they were very much at sea because the things were in such flux in Iran. They were used to dealing, at least for the previous few months, with the officials from the provisional government. But the provisional government collapsed shortly after this hostage crisis began. So at that point, it wasn't clear who they could talk to. It was clear that whoever was controlling the embassy takeover was part of the religious faction in Iran, and this would not have been a faction that the United States had any close ties with. Initially, the Carter administration tried to open an avenue for negotiations. Former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and another official made a furtive attempt to establish some kind of dialogue, but failed, at least for the first few weeks or months, the Carter administration really was having a hard time figuring out who to talk to, who would be in a position to actually make anything happen.

[Lindsey Graham]

You mentioned that the CIA had their interests in Iran. And this is important because the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat which installed the Shah, the CIA was instrumental in this. So what was the CIA's abiding interest in Iran in 1979?

[Mark Bowden]

I think we have to distinguish between the myth of the CIA's presence in Iran, which was that they were actively supporting the Shah, shoring up his regime, and that after he was deposed that they were actively plotting to bring him back. In fact, the CIA had very little involvement in propping up the Shah. Their primary mission in Iran was was to spy on Soviet Union missile sites. There were a range of spying centers up along the northern border of Iran. And I think the bulk of the work that the CIA did there, by the good graces of the Shah, was to run listening outposts to keep track of the Soviet's nuclear weapons and whatever deployments they were making in that part of the world. So that was the main focus, in fact, of the CIA.

[Lindsey Graham]

But to many in Iran, that was not the only thing the CIA was doing there.

[Mark Bowden]

No. Clearly the CIA, largely because of Hollywood, has a much higher profile around the world than it in fact deserves. And so there was this fear that savak, which was the Shah's secret police, were actually just agents of the CIA, and that everything terrible that happened under the Shah's reign, the strings were being pulled by the United States through the CIA. So there was this expectation that the CIA had its fingers in everything in Iran. And in fact, that was not the case. In fact, the strongest argument against that point of view is that the CIA did not see the Shah's downfall coming. If you look at their assessments of risk in Iran in that period, there's no mention of the possibility that the Shah might be deposed.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Chico Felitti]

Everyone has that friend who seems kind of perfect for Patty. That friend was Desiree. Until one day I texted her and.

[Lindsey Graham]

She was not getting the text. So I went to Instagram. She has no Instagram anymore.

[Chico Felitti]

And Facebook. No Facebook anymore. Desiree was gone and there was one person who knew the answer.

[Mark Bowden]

I am a spiritual person, a magical.

[Chico Felitti]

Person, a witch, a gorgeous Brazilian influencer called Kat Torres, but who was hiding a secret from Wondery. Based on my smash hit podcast From Brazil comes a new series, Don't Cross Cat, about a search that led me to a mystery in a Texas suburb. I'm calling to check on the two missing Brazilian girl, maybe get some undercover crew there.

[Lindsey Graham]

The family are freaking out. They are lost.

[Chico Felitti]

I'm Chico Felitti. You can listen to Don't Cross Cat on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lindsey Graham]

In researching your book, you visited Iran a few times. Two decades after all of this unfolded. I guess I'd like to know first, what was it like to be in Iran at this time as a journalist?

[Mark Bowden]

It was fascinating and stimulating for me. As a journalist I was learning a lot. I was nervous because I didn't go pretending to be a tourist, I went in as a journalist and I knew I was vulnerable to any action that the state decided to take. As it was, they assigned me a minder. All of the interviews that I conducted were recorded. I presume they were being listened to. So on the one hand, as a journalist, I knew I was being spied upon. But on the other hand, the fellow who they assigned to work with me, who was actually an employee of the Information ministry, was himself not particularly keen on the regime and was actually helpful to me, helping to find the former hostage takers, helping me to talk to ordinary Iranians. He was more interested in my getting a accurate feel for what was going on in Iran. Then I was more interested in what had happened 20 some years earlier. So I was focused on the past and he was focused on the present. I will say too that the Iranian people, the average Iranian person, people I would meet on the street or in restaurants or in the hotels, would were delighted to help me. They were very friendly, very warm, and would tell me how much they missed seeing Americans in Iran. You remember, America had a large presence in Iran for many years previous. So people couldn't have been nicer to me and made it very clear to me, at least many of the ones that I met, that they were not particularly keen on the Islamic rule.

[Lindsey Graham]

Did you ever feel like you were in danger?

[Mark Bowden]

I did not. You know, I felt more like that was a possibility. But at the time, I didn't know of an instance where a foreign journalist had been thrown into even prison. In the years since, that's happened a number of times. But either I was naive and ignorant or tensions had eased somewhat. But I didn't really feel any danger.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, during your visits, I understand you went to the former US Embassy in Tehran. The. What was that like?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, it's easy to find. It's a big complex right in the middle of Tehran. Part of it, the old Chancery building, has been turned into an Anti American museum. I toured it and that gave me an opportunity to walk around the grounds and picture the places that I was going to be writing about in the book. One of the big exhibits in the Anti American museum is about the takeover of the embassy. And they have pieces of the wreckage of the planes and helicopters that were destroyed in the desert in the failed rescue mission. They have framed top secret documents that were seized from the vault at the embassy, most of which were very mundane things, nothing terribly interesting, but which look really important because they have top secret stamped on them. The museum itself was dedicated to exposing American atrocities all over the world. So there was plenty of other stuff there to take in.

[Lindsey Graham]

As part of your research, you tracked down several of the hostage takers themselves, now middle aged people, but I wanted to ask you about a few of them, starting with one called Ibrahim. How did he reflect on his role in the hostage taking when you interviewed him in 2003?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, Ibrahim Esgarzadeh has become a fairly prominent figure in Iran and a dissident figure. He was more secular, even though he had been a part of the Islamic Student movement when he was a young man. He had come over the years to view the takeover of the embassy as a big mistake. In fact, he had run for office. He had briefly been either imprisoned or sentenced to confinement at home. So he had a dicey relationship with the regime and a very courageous man. And he spoke to me very candidly about his early involvement in the takeover of the embassy and how he very quickly felt that it was being turned into something much larger and different than what he had originally imagined.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'd be interested to hear what he tried to do in order to, I guess, reorient Iran into the vision he had after the hostage taking.

[Mark Bowden]

So he was a prominent, dissonant voice in Iran. He was not at least overtly religious. He was not a cleric. He was a secular gentleman, very smart, very much believing that Iran should have a Western style democracy. He was one of those who emphasized to me how the original intent of the takeover was much more akin to what had happened at Columbia University in the United States to hold a protest. So he was alarmed as what he thought would be a two or three day sit in turn into this high powered long term hostage taking. I should add too that, you know, I've mentioned several times that the mullahs who backed the takeover of the embassy used this to leverage themselves into power. And the way that they did it was by perpetrating the myth that the United States Embassy was actively plotting to return the Shah. And so during the period, at least in the first few months of the embassy takeover, the students would hold press conferences where they would flash papers that they had seized from desks or from safes in the embassy. And if there were names of prominent politicians, Iranian politicians who had met with American officials and they were not part of the Mullah's party, these were the more secular politicians who were willing to talk to the United States or willing to talk to the west, but they were accused of being traitors to the revolution and many of them went to prison and many were executed. So this turned into a very ugly moment where the religious leaders were able to manufacture propaganda used to destroy their political enemies.

[Lindsey Graham]

You interviewed another participant, the spokesperson for the hostage takers, nicknamed Mother Mary. We didn't really cover her in our series. Can you tell us who she was and how she got involved in this event?

[Mark Bowden]

Her name was Niloufar Ebtekar. She is an Iranian woman who was raised in Philadelphia in the United States for the first five years of her life because her father was taking part in an international studies program at the University of Pennsylvania. So she happened to speak flawless American accented English. So when the students took over the embassy, Nilou Farr, who had become a religious zealot, joined the students and became their spokesman because they were holding these press conferences both to achieve their purposes inside of Iran, but also to speak to the world. She would appear on news broadcasts about the embassy takeover, lecturing Americans in her very American English about how terrible the Great Satan was. She became a memorable figure, certainly in the United States.

[Lindsey Graham]

In your conversations with her, how did she reflect on her involvement all these years later?

[Mark Bowden]

She was very proud of it. She had, like many of the hostage takers, risen to prominence in Iran. In fact, she was one of the vice presidents. There are a number of vice presidents in the Iranian government. She was the vice president in charge of environmental protection. So she was a powerful figure. She was dressed like a nun. And she was very, very proud of her role in taking over the American Embassy and basically continued to spout the same myth about the takeover of the embassy, how it had thwarted this CIA plot, how the United States was trying to bring the Shah back. All of which I knew to be untrue, and which, frankly, I think she probably knows is untrue, but is nevertheless the official line. Lila Farr was the only one of the hostage takers who had had any real experience living in the United States. And so she was considered to be kind of the expert on the United States and apparently came to believe that about herself because she lectured me at some length about the United States as if it was a place that I hadn't been born in and grown up in. And in fact, at one point asked me what branch of the military I served in. And I told her, well, I'm a journalist and I've never served in the military. And she told me to my face, I know you're lying because all American men have to serve in the military for a number of years. And I said, okay, not true. But what do you say to somebody who seems to know more about your own country than you do now in.

[Lindsey Graham]

The midst of this frightening tragedy, there were perhaps some lighter moments. One of the unusual things that happened among some of the hostage takers was, was that they met their spouses. The spokeswoman met and married another hostage taker. Who you interviewed, Mohammad Hashemi. What can you tell us about them?

[Mark Bowden]

They were young people, these were college age students who were thrown together in a very passionate moment for the country who believed that they were doing something really historic and wonderful, and who ended up basically having to live together at the embassy for many, many months. I'm sure that they got to go home, unlike the American hostages, and take breaks, but they were thrown together and became a very close knit unit. And I think whenever you get a group of young people who are thrown together in a situation like that, that romance blooms. In this case, Muhammad Hashemi had been one of the instigators of the takeover, and he niloufar Abdikar became a couple and in fact married and were still married when I visited in Iran. In fact, they had invested in some resort on the Black Sea. And Mohammed Hashemi proposed to me the idea that maybe they could invite back some of the former American hostages to take advantage of this new resort that they were building. So they saw an entrepreneurial opportunity.

[Lindsey Graham]

Well, while romance bloomed between some Americans were held hostage in extraordinary circumstances. It was never really part of the hostage takers plan to torture any of the American embassy workers, but some hostages were tortured. Did you speak to any of the hostage takers about their treatment of the hostages?

[Mark Bowden]

I did, yes. I remember Ibrahim Asgharzadeh was embarrassed about what had happened. He felt that the protests that he had imagined lasting a couple of days had gotten out of control from the very beginning. And so people became involved in guarding the hostages and caring for the hostages, feeding them, questioning them, who had other motives. So, you know, Muhammad Hashemi, for instance, who later on became an important figure in the information ministry in Iran, was involved in questioning the hostages. And he would have supported the strong interrogation methods that were used particularly against those who they suspected of being in the CIA. And in some cases, those men were tortured in the conventional sense that they were whipped. They were held in abominable conditions. They were lined up against the wall and told they were going to be executed. They were constantly threatened with execution. So it was something that evolved as the hostage taking grew increasingly serious over time.

[Cassie DePechel]

Hey, I'm Cassie Depechel, the host of Wondery's podcast, Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale in our next season. It's February 14, 1979. Elmo Wortman and his three children are stranded on a remote Alaskan island after a massive storm destroys their sailboat. Miles for help, miles from help. They have to face the brutal cold with barely any food, only a sail for shelter, and a leaky plastic dinghy. Desperate to survive, they build a raft and try to reach safety. But as starvation and frostbite take hold and days stretch into weeks, their endurance is pushed to the limit. Follow against the odds. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app.

[Business Wars Host]

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[Lindsey Graham]

We've talked a little bit about the crisis as it unfolded in Iran, but let's turn to how the American people viewed the events. In your book, you talk about this 15 month hostage crisis as being a perfect story for TV. What did you mean by that?

[Mark Bowden]

You had huge crowds of people demonstrating outside the American Embassy in Tehran chanting Death to America. You had the students who held a number of events where they would exhibit the hostages and who held press conferences where they made their outrageous claims about what these embassy workers had been up to. What was going on in Tehran was very dramatic. It was, I think, a humiliation for the American government and for the American people. We were considered to be one of the superpowers in the world. And yet here, a group of students in Iran had taken an entire embassy and held it hostage. And there appeared to be nothing that the United States could do about it. The thing about the television in the United States is that, you know, television in the United States back in the 1970s or 1979, 1980, you had the big broadcast networks and then each of these broadcast networks had affiliates in just about every major city in the United States. And when you have 53 or more hostages, you had hostages from just about every part of America. So local television stations all had their own hostage and they could go out and interview the families of that hostage. They could follow along the story from day to day and week to week. So it created this kind of perfect storm of television coverage, and people were glued to it because it was a dramatic moment. The United States was being humiliated. There was this expectation that something really big was going to happen, possibly, and you had the Carter administration basically at loose ends with no real way of resolving it.

[Lindsey Graham]

That's a beautiful segue to my next question, because President Carter reluctantly did try to resolve it with a rescue attempt, which we know failed. What went wrong?

[Mark Bowden]

Well, the idea was to fly eight helicopters to a rendezvous point in the desert well outside of Tehran at which point the helicopters, which had no capability of being refueled in flight at that point would be out of gas. So they had to rendezvous in the desert with big aircraft carrying oil and actually carrying the Delta Force operators who would do the rescue mission. So the goal was to land eight helicopters in the desert, refuel, load the rescue force on the helicopters, and then fly the helicopters to hiding places just outside of the city before dawn. And at nightfall, the rescue force would load on trucks, drive into the city, attack the embassy, rescue the hostages, which for them, frankly, would not have been a terribly difficult task because these hostages were being held by amateurs. And Delta Force, I think, would have overpowered them rapidly. So the idea was to get the hostages who the hostage takers had made the mistake of keeping all in the same place at the embassy, blow a hole in the wall, march them across the street to a soccer stadium strong point, the soccer stadium, and then fly these helicopters, which had been kept in hiding all day, fly them into the soccer stadium, load the hostages and the rescue force on the helicopters, and then fly them out to a nearby airstrip which a battalion of Army Rangers was going to raid and seize. So once they were at the airport, they would fly them out of the country. That was the way the thing was supposed to go on paper.

[Lindsey Graham]

And then how did it go?

[Mark Bowden]

It was a disaster. The eight helicopters encountered problems flying across the desert. Iran's desert is this very fine sand, more like dust, and these columns of dust called haboobs. Dust storms were not uncommon. And so a number of these helicopters ran into these huge dust storms. As a result, they began to experience mechanical failure. One of the helicopters actually had to set down. They gave up on the machine, loaded themselves on another helicopter and continued. Another helicopter turned back. He had gotten to the point where he could either press on, knowing that his engines were about to give out because of the dust clogging the rotors. And so he made the decision to head back to the aircraft carriers. So now they were down to just six helicopters. And then one of the helicopters that made it to the rendezvous point was so damaged by exposure to this dust storm that the pilot said that it could not be flown safely. So now they're down to five helicopters. So the decision was made and it was an automatic decision, we're going to pull out. But what happened was, as the helicopters took off to return to the aircraft carrier, one of them clipped one of the fixed wing tankers that had landed in the desert and it exploded, killing 8 of the service members. There crashing the helicopter, at which point any hope of maintaining secrecy was gone. The wreckage of these planes and the bodies had had to be left in the desert. And the remaining men in helicopters basically flew out of Iran knowing that the mission that they had envisioned was never going to happen.

[Lindsey Graham]

And this mission's failure made what was already a political debacle even worse. How did Ronald Reagan use the hostage crisis in his campaigning against Jimmy Carter?

[Mark Bowden]

When you do something like this, you run a huge risk. If it fails, you are going to look like an incompetent. You are going to look like somebody who doesn't know how to use American power properly. Ronald Reagan was able to portray Jimmy Carter as a weak president, as someone who was overmatched by this little country of Iran. Carter, I think, to his credit, had made trying to keep the hostages alive his major priority. I don't think every president would have done that, but he seemed to realize that actions that might make the American people feel good or that might make him look good, like bombing missions in Iran or threats, invasion, whatever, would almost certainly get the hostages killed. And so he was willing basically to take a beating. And he tried many different avenues to open negotiations with the Iranians, trying to figure out who would be sufficiently in charge to actually reach a deal and make something happen. And every time they got close, the mullahs would pull the rug out from under. And I think those around Carter, including President Carter himself, understood when the rescue mission failed that their chances of reelection were very small. So I don't fault them for what they did. I think they tried everything that they could. The efforts that they made ultimately bore fruit, because they did. In December of 1979, more than a year after the takeover, negotiated a deal to release the hostages, all of whom were in good shape, in return only for giving Iran back money that had been seized when the embassy was taken. When that was negotiated by the Carter administration, the Iranian students, despite Carter, refused to release the host hostages and sign off on the deal, literally until the day that Ronald Reagan was inaugurated.

[Lindsey Graham]

Mark Bowden, thank you so much for talking with me today on American Historytellers.

[Mark Bowden]

Thanks for having me.

[Lindsey Graham]

That was my conversation with Mark Bowden, author of Guests of the Ayatollah. The Iran Hostage Crisis. The first battle in America's war with militant Islam. From wandering. This is the fourth and final episode of our series on the harder years for American Historytellers. In our next season at the turn of the 20th century, President Teddy Roosevelt and other politicians, activists and journalists turned their attention to the problems caused by rapid industrialization, urbanization and sweeping corruption. Their efforts bring about new consumer protections, labor reforms and business regulations, expanding the power and scope of the federal government in a period called the Progressive Era. If you like American Historytellers, you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey American Historytellers is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Sound design by Molly Bach Supervising sound designer, Matthew Filler music by Thrum. This episode was produced by Polly Stryker and Aleda Rosanski. Our senior Interview producer is Peter A.R. cooney managing producer, Desi Blaylock Senior Managing Producer is Callum Plews Senior Producer, Andy Herman. Executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marcia Louie and Erin O'Flaherty. For wondering.

[Jesse Weber]

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[Mark Bowden]

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[Jesse Weber]

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[Business Wars Host]

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[Lindsey Graham]

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[Jesse Weber]

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[Cassie DePechel]

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[Mark Bowden]

Finally, maybe this would lead rich and.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Jesse Weber]

Listen to Law & Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.