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Want to get more from American Scandal? Subscribe to Wondery for early access to new episodes, ad, free listening and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode previously aired in 2022. A listener note this episode contains descriptions of violence and references to sexual assault. It may not be suitable for a younger audience wondering. It's September 18, 1975, in a jail in Northern California, Patricia Hearst is curled up in bed in a small concrete cell. The space is no more than 6ft wide and 9ft long. In one corner is a combined toilet and sink, and at the other end are a set of steel bars. Hearst rolls over, trying to make sense of everything that's happened today. It was only a few hours ago that FBI agents stormed into her apartment, guns drawn, and placed her under arrest for robbing a bank. The encounter with armed law enforcement left Hearst feeling shaken, but the day took an even more surreal turn when Hearst and the agents arrived at the jailhouse and found a crowd of reporters waiting for her. Hearst greeted them with a raised fist, and during her booking she identified herself as Tanya, her adopted name in the Symbionese Liberation Army. She even gave her occupation as urban guerrilla. All the radical posturing earned a few raised eyebrows. Apparently people were expecting that after getting arrested, Hearst would stop playing the part of political radical. But Hearst's allegiance to the SLA is complicated. She was, of course, a kidnapping victim, and she had been held captive in a dark closet and her life threatened. But Hearst grew convinced her family had given up on her, and while living in isolation with the sla, Hearst publicly gave up on her family. She made recordings of herself condemning her mother and father for their bourgeois lifestyle and calling out the media and labeling her a victim. She was fully aware that the FBI was leading a manhunt, calling her a criminal and trying to place her under arrest. So at the same time that it felt like her world was collapsing, that her family had abandoned her, the members of the SLA started to become something like a new family, even if it was dysfunctional. The radical political group had become her entire world, offering protection, camaraderie and a sense of daily ritual. But now Hearst is alone once again. The majority of the members of the SLA died after a shootout with the police. The group is in tatters after she and the remaining members hopscotched around the country trying to find refuge, and Hearst was dealt the final blow only hours ago when federal agents stormed her apartment and placed her in handcuffs. Hearst is lying on her side, trying to get comfortable when she hears a pair of heavy boots coming down the hallway. Instinctively, Hearst tenses up. Senku Mtume, the fallen leader of the sla, always warned what would happen if they were brought to jail. He promised that the SLA would be brutalized and tortured. Hearst believed every word of that terrifying message, and as these footsteps get closer, she begins bracing for violence. The footsteps stop outside her cell and Hearst looks up to see a deputy with a blank expression. He takes out a key and unlocks the cell door. Alright, come on, Ms. Hearst, you've got guests. Hearst stares suspiciously at the deputy, waiting for his next move. Ms. Hearst, come on, we don't have all night. Hearst gets up, still eyeing the deputy. He places a pair of handcuffs on her wrists and then he leads Hearst down a dark hallway, past rows of other jail cells and inmates who stand banging against their cell doors and shouting out. Hearst swallows as she gets closer and closer to what she is sure will be a beating. She's trained for this moment, but still she is afraid. A moment later, Hearst and the deputy arrive in front of a Hearst is nearly trembling now, in fearful anticipation of what comes next. But when the deputy turns the knob and the door opens, Hearst freezes in surprise. In front of her are her mother and father and her two younger sisters, family members she hasn't seen in over a year and a half. Katherine Hearst, Patricia's mother, steps forward, cradling a dozen yellow roses. Oh, Patty, sweetheart. Ah, I'm so thrilled to know you're safe. And you look well. Your hair is quite different. Unconsciously, Patricia touches her hair, which she box dyed red a few weeks ago. You don't like it? Well, you. You've been using various disguises. I'm. I'm. Let's change the subject. Tell me about how they're treating you here. Do you. Do you share a cell? No, they have me alone. Said it's for my own safety. But that doesn't make sense. Me and the other prisoners, we are in this struggle together. Of course. Well, here, Penny, these roses are for you, to brighten up your space. Well, thank you. No, don't thank me. They're from the reporters who've been visiting the house. They were so happy to hear this was all coming to an end. Catherine holds out the roses, but Patricia doesn't move to take them. After all the outrageous coverage, all the sensational headlines and baseless accusations, now reporters are sending her flowers. Sweetheart. Patty, what's wrong? The flowers are nice, but what is it? Are they not treating you well here? No. Nothing bad has happened so far. What do you mean, so far? Patricia pauses. Her family, with their mansion and summers at the Hearst Castle, could never understand the wide gulf that now stands between them, the reality of prison. All the lessons Patricia learned from the SLA about oppression and sexism and racism in America. Mother, it's nothing you wouldn't understand, Patricia. Whatever's on your mind, we will understand. No, no, don't worry, Mother. I'll be fine. And I didn't mean anything. This is all very new. Yes, and it won't be permanent. We'll see to it that you get out of here soon. Your father's hiring the best attorney money can buy. The deputy signals it's time to wrap up. And don't you worry, Patty. We'll get you out of here. And then we'll put all of this behind us. I promise. A minute later, Patricia Hearst is escorted back to her cell. As she walks down the hallway, she gazes at the other prisoners, women who were locked up and promptly forgotten about. Hearst knows her mother has fantasies that she'll beat the charges and everyone will soon get back to their old lives. But it is a fantasy. Hearst is now one of the oppressed, an inmate in America's criminal justice system. And she's about to face a trial that'll be as much about political theater as any real form of justice. From wondery, I'm lindsey graham, and this is american skin. In 1974, the story of Patricia Hearst's kidnapping turned into a national sensation, generating coverage in newspapers, radio and tv. The public found itself gripped by the unfolding saga involving a corporate heiress who appeared to renounce her life of wealth and privilege and take up an identity as a radical activist and a criminal on the run. In September of 1975, Hearst was arrested for taking part in a bank robbery. Facing renewed public attention, Hearst found herself at the center of one of the biggest trials of the 20th century. Both in and out of the courtroom, there were fierce debates about Hearst's state of mind. Was she a real member of the sla or was she the victim of brainwashing? Or playing a part to survive? As the trial unfolded, these questions would have large implications for Patricia Hearst. And they would shape the jury's deliberations as they decided whether to find Hearst guilty of crimes that could send her to prison. This is episode four, Free Will. It's September 26th, 1975. At the San Mateo County Jail, F. Lee Bailey lights a cigarette as he sizes up a young woman seated across the table. She has disheveled red hair and thinly plucked eyebrows. She's gaunt and looks worn down. Bailey takes a long drag from his cigarette. He doesn't quite know what to make of his newest client, Patricia Hearst. Bailey is one of the most well known criminal defense attorneys in the country. He's won cases defending rapists and exonerating murderers. And he's had his brushes with celebrity, representing the infamous serial killer, the Boston Strangler. But Patricia Hearst involves an entirely different magnitude of fame. The entire country has been following her case, arguing about what justice means in her case. Bailey knows he has his work cut out for him. Hearst faces criminal charges for her role in a bank robbery. The media heiress also unloaded a submachine gun at a sporting goods store. Making matters worse, Hearst has proudly declared her responsibility for the criminal activity. And even since getting arrested, she hasn't been staying quiet. Hearst has continued to draw attention to herself, spouting a bunch of heated political rhetoric. So this will be a tough case. But Bailey believes it's worthwhile. Patricia Hearst's trial is going to receive a flurry of media coverage, and that's free publicity for Bailey's practice. He might even get a book deal out of it. But before he can start counting up all the money he's about to make, Bailey knows he needs to first talk some sense into his client. He has to get Patricia Hearst under control. That's the only way they stand a chance at winning in trial. So inside this jailhouse conference room, Bailey stubs out his cigarette and straightens the lapels of his three piece suit. Then he tells Hearst, starting now, he's in charge. Her father hired him to win the case. And if Hearst wants to avoid prison, she has to do exactly what he says. Hearst crosses her arms and asks what the lawyer is talking about. What is he asking her to do? Bailey begins laying out his strategy. Number one, there's going to be no more communication with the sla. No more writing letters to anyone even affiliated with the group. Hearst has to get some distance from all political radicals. But Hearst pushes back. She's sitting in jail completely alone. Bailey is asking her to cut herself off from everyone who cares about her. But Hearst's attorney reminds her that that's not true. She could see her family, her old friends, people she was close to before getting kidnapped. They love her and care about her. Hurst pauses, biting her lip. And while he knows what he said was true, Bailey acknowledges the situation is complicated. When she was still with the sla, Hearst recorded herself denouncing her old life. The group made sure those tapes were broadcast across the country, and those recordings no doubt caused a lot of pain for Hearst's family members, but they could still come back together. Paley thinks so. He consoles Hearst, telling her not to fret and not to get hung up on past decisions. They're talking about family. Family will always be there. Hearst remains quiet for a few moments, but then asks if she follows the instructions. If she cuts herself off from the SLA and they do win at trial, will she finally be able to live a life on her own terms? Bailey pulls out another cigarette and lights up, taking a deep drag. He tells Hurst that that's the definition of freedom, being able to live the life you want, and Hearst gives a meek nod. She says she'll follow his instructions. Bailey blows out a pillar of smoke, feeling satisfied. On his flight over to San Francisco, he wondered which version of Patty Hearst he'd encounter, the radical who calls herself Tania or someone else. Hopefully someone rational, someone willing to do what it takes to win at trial. For now, it looks like Bailey has gotten lucky, and if Hearst remains pliant, he should be able to put forward a strong argument and get this whole case dismissed. It's the fall of 1975 in Northern California. In the visitor's room of San Mateo County Jail, Kathryn Hurst takes a seat on a hard plastic chair. She smooths down her tailored suit and adjusts her pearl necklace. Soon her daughter, Patricia, is led in, handcuffed, and takes a seat. The two women are separated by a thick piece of glass. It's a jarring experience for a mother, but even with the physical distance Catherine can see there's reason to be hopeful. Patricia's eyes look a little brighter, her shoulders are less hunched. Catherine has been making regular trips to the jail to see Patricia, and with each visit her daughter has seemed more like herself and less like the radical everyone reads about in newspapers. Catherine gives some of the credit to F. Lee Bailey, Patricia's attorney. She heard he put his foot down and demanded that Patricia cut off contact with her fellow political activists. With less of their daily influence. It seems like Patricia is setting aside some of her more radical notions, but Catherine knows that's just the first step to bringing Patty back into the family, to repairing the deep wounds and reconnecting with her daughter. But sitting in the drafty visitors room now, Catherine struggles to find anything to talk about, something they could connect over. Finally, Catherine smiles and asks about crocheting. Is Patricia still keeping it up? Patricia says yeah, she's still doing some. She's working on a scarf now. It gets cold at night in her cell. Catherine nods. This is a good opening. And keeping the conversation going, Catherine begins filling in Patricia on tidbits of Hearst family gossip. Then she talks about the family dogs. She knows Patricia has always liked animals, and soon enough the conversation starts to feel easy and natural. Catherine almost forgets that they're sitting in a jail, separated by a thick pane of glass. But suddenly in the conversation, Patricia tells her mother she doesn't have to keep faking it. She knows the family hates her for what she said in those tapes. And while she appreciates the visits and knows it looks good for her cause they can drop the pretense, Patricia knows it's all just for show. Catherine's face falls and leaning forward to the glass, she tells her daughter this is absolutely not for show. No one hates her for those tapes. Those recordings were a godsend. They were proof that she was alive. Katherine goes on saying that no one in the family took what she was saying in earnest. She was being held captive. They know she was forced to say some outrageous things. Patricia looks down at the table, gathering her thoughts. Then she asks her mother why she didn't believe the statements on those tapes. Why didn't she think Patricia actually meant what she said? Katherine smiles and says no one knows Patty Hearst as well as her own family. And if the real Patricia was actually talking on those recordings, she would have been a hell of a lot more sarcastic. Patricia suddenly buries her face in her hands. Catherine worries she made a blunder. She was trying to be playful and connect with her daughter, but she might have made things worse. But then, with her face still buried in her hands, Patricia starts to laugh. She says she never realized her sarcasm was so infamous in the family. Catherine laughs along with her daughter, feeling at ease for the first time. Longer than she can remember. But then Patricia's expression turns serious again. She wonders what she can do about those tapes she recorded. They're going to be out in the public forever, along with all those terrible photos of her, the ones the newspapers couldn't get enough of. Catherine tells her daughter not to spend any more time worrying about newspapers or radio or tv. All that matters is her family. They know the truth about who she really is, and they will always love her. Catherine looks at her daughter, searching to see if she believes this solemn statement. And for what feels like an eternity, the two sit in silence, not saying a single word. Finally, Patricia nods. But before they can talk anymore, a guard signals that their Time is up. Catherine stands and says goodbye. But Patricia has one more question. Is her mother coming back again tomorrow? Katherine looks at Patricia through the glass. Her daughter's face is open and expectant. She seems like the Patty she raised. So Catherine assures her daughter that she will be here tomorrow and she'll keep coming back until Patricia is free. It's late September 1975 in San Francisco. The prosecutor Jim Browning kneels on the ground trying to untangle a knot of cords behind a tv. He pulls on one of the black wires, hoping to free it from the cluster. But the knot somehow only gets more bunched and tangled. For Browning, troubleshooting audio visual issues isn't a normal part of the job. He's the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of California, a federal prosecutor, and as one of the federal government's top attorneys, Browning's main job is to prosecute criminals, not tangle with cords between a VCR and a tv. But in just a few minutes, Browning is going to sit down with F. Lee Bailey, the defense attorney representing Patricia Hearst. Browning has been named the lead prosecutor in the upcoming Hearst case. It's his job to convict Hearst of all her crimes, including robbery. So Browning knows how this meeting is going to play out. The defense attorney is going to try to get the government to dismiss all charges, claiming it's better to avoid trial, that the prosecution has a losing case. And Bailey is a famous defense attorney with a reputation for bravado and aggressive posturing. But Browning isn't going to cave or give in to any pressure. He has a trump card, a piece of evidence that should silence his opposing counsel. But to reveal it first, Browning is going to have to get the VCR connected to the tv. Still kneeling on the ground, Browning finally manages to untangle the cords and get everything connected. Static gives way to a black screen and as Browning lifts himself off the floor, there's a knock on the door. Browning opens it and finds defense attorney Bailey standing in a three piece suit. He looks Browning up and down with a smirk. Hey Browning. What's with the dumb shoes? Browning glances down at his patent leather slip ons and shakes his head. It didn't take Bailey a second to start in with the insults. Mr. Bailey, please come in. I was just getting the tape set up for our meeting. No, tapes aren't necessary. Look, you and I both know it's in everyone's best interest that this whole thing doesn't go to trial. Well, I'm not sure who you mean by everyone, but please grab a seat. I think we should watch the tape. We could both benefit from a sober perspective. All right, well, let's watch the movies. Browning walks over and hits play on the vcr. Soon the two attorneys are watching black and white footage from a security camera. The defense attorney gives another cutting smirk. Well, we're all familiar with this incident. The very famous Patricia Hearst robbing a bank and waving a gun. But what's the point? Well, as I watch this tape, I see that Ms. Hurst is behaving purposefully, voluntarily. You could even say she's got verve. No, I wouldn't say that. And I bet you much more than your penny loafer shoes that I can get a jury on my side. Bailey, be reasonable. I mean, look at the footage. It's unambiguous. Patty Hearst is a gun toting criminal. We're not going to drop the charges. That's not even on the table. But please, offer me something. Is Hearst willing to enter into a plea deal? Nope. No plea. My client is not going to prison. Well, then what are we doing here? I'm not dropping charges and you're not offering a plea. But you knew that when you walked in the door. Well, I am here to offer you something. If you lose this battle, this case, you could still win the bigger war. And what is that supposed to mean? It means cooperation. Drop the charges and Ms. Hurst will testify for the government. You'll get a star witness against all those other lunatics awaiting trial. Browning considers the offer. Bill and Emily Harris, the other original members of the sla, were recently arrested themselves. And Hearst would be an excellent witness. But it's not a good deal for the prosecution. I'm sorry. You expect me to let America's most famous fugitive walk away scot free in exchange for testifying in other cases that we know we're gonna win? The press would have a field day with it. Look, look, look. I know you're wanting to make a statement with this trial. Rich girl won't get away with it, not on your watch. But let me ask you, is the government really going to put it back kidnapping victim on trial before you try her own kidnappers? Well, we're not denying Patricia Hurst was kidnapped. I believe Ms. Hurst is both a victim and a willful bank robber. It wasn't willful. She was coerced. Coerced? How many times could she have walked away? But she never did. She always chose to stay. Oh, you don't need a gun pointed at your head to know your life is on the line. Yeah, I'm beginning to think that you government prosecutors don't know a thing about human nature. That's going to be your loss. Browning shakes his head. No, I know a thing or two about human nature. And bombings, hijackings, robberies, assassinations. Our country is falling apart and people like you are trying to write it all off, claiming everyone's a victim. Well, you know what? People need to be held responsible for the choices they make, and the public needs to see that their justice system functions properly. So no, I'm not dismissing charges and no, I'm not taking a plea deal. The defense attorney grabs his bag and hops up, heading for the door. All right, well, looks like I'll see you in court. Oh, and about the proper functioning of the justice system. You were appointed by Nixon, right? Before Browning can respond, Bailey is out the door. Browning gets up and hits eject on the vcr, removing the tape. He was right. This meeting went exactly as he imagined, and Browning is glad he didn't cave. He could have gotten some value out of Hearst if she testified against Bill and Emily Harris. But Browning meant what he Hearst may be a wealthy heiress with a powerful family, but in America, even the rich and powerful still have to be held responsible for their crimes. Hello, American Scandal listeners. I have an exciting announcement. I'm going on tour and coming to a theater near you. The very first show will be at the Granada theater in Dallas, Texas, on March 6. It's going to be a thrilling evening of history, storytelling, and music with a full band behind me as we look back to explore the days that made America. And they aren't the days you might think. Sure, everyone knows July 4, 1776, but there are many other days that are maybe even more influential and certain, certainly more scandalous. So come out to see me live in Dallas. Or for information on tickets and upcoming dates, go to americanhistorylive.com that's americanhistorylive.com Come see my days that Made America tour live on stage. Go to americanhistorylive.com. It's February 19, 1976, five months since Patricia Hearst was arrested in her apartment in a federal courtroom in San Francisco. Hearst is sitting in the witness stand, trying to maintain her composure. She's wearing a pinstripe blazer and a large silk bow, the outfit of someone who would appear to lead a normal and proper life. But in front of her, Jim Browning, the federal prosecutor, is pacing back and forth, preparing yet another line of withering questions in his cross examination. It's all part of an effort to paint Hearst as a criminal A misfit and a political radical. It's been a long few days, only two weeks in. People are already calling this the trial of the century. Hearst has had to sit in the witness stand, dissecting her own inner life in a courtroom packed with gawking members of the public. The trial has had the atmosphere of a zoo, with Hearst feeling like an animal on display. Her defense attorney, F. Lee Bailey, said that this was all a necessary part of the process. In order to win, they had to establish her state of mind, beginning with the moment she was kidnapped. And Hearst had to show how the threat of death was part of the daily fabric of her life, informing every one of her decisions over the course of months. Hearst robbed a bank. She doesn't deny it. But what they had to show the jury is that given her kidnapping and the chronic terror she felt, it's clear that she was coerced and is not culpable. So far, Hearst has gone along with the defense strategy. She's tried to stay clear of anything that would make her seem like a sincere convert to the sla. But after days of testifying, Hearst can feel herself wearing thin. She's had to endure hour upon hour of intense questioning and looking up at the prosecutor, Hearst. Hearst can tell she's about to face another round of painful interrogations, questions designed to trip her up and sway the seven women and five men sitting in the jury box. The prosecutor, Browning, turns on his heels and begins his next round of questions. So, Ms. Hurst, we've heard of many instances where you had access to a telephone and even moments of privacy during your time with the sla. Why exactly did you never call your parents or try to return to them? I felt my parents wouldn't want to see me again. I felt ashamed what I'd said about them on those tapes. And so you remained in a situation where the threat of death supposedly hung over you because you were worried your parents were mad at you. It's not that simple a yes or no, Ms. Hurst. If you put it that way, yes, I guess. Good. Now I'm going to show you something. Browning walks to the prosecutor's table and grabs a gun. Hearst recognizes the weapon. It's the one she carried when she and the SLA robbed the Hibernia Bank. Browning sets the weapon in front of her and Hearst picks it up, inspecting it. Now, Ms. Hearst, you look quite comfortable with that gun. How do you know that weapon was yours? By the stock and the bolt. Hurst first freezes. She's made a mistake revealing a side of Herself that she's been trying to avoid someone who knows how to handle a gun. But soon Browning moves on from the gun and begins another line of questioning. Now, did you and Mr. William Wolfe, a man also known as Cujo, did you and Mr. Wolf develop a relationship during your time with the SLA? You mean during my kidnapping, Ms. Hurst, what was the nature of the relationship? I don't know what you mean. Was it a sexual relationship? I don't like to call it a relationship. What would you call it then? I don't like saying it out loud. We're trying to sort out the facts, Ms. Hurst. He raped me. The courtroom suddenly grows tense, but Browning doesn't pivot. Was it forcible rape? I beg your pardon? I mean, did you struggle or did you submit because of fear? I didn't resist, no. Did you not say to others within the group that you thought highly of Mr. Wolf? I didn't say that at all. Well, then, what exactly did you say? I said I had a strong feeling about him. And what was that feeling? For Hearst, this is excruciating. She's being forced to relive one of the most painful moments of her life in front of a crowd of strangers. But she doesn't mince her words. Well, Mr. Browning, it wasn't romantic. I couldn't stand him. I was just trying to survive. Hearst looks around the courtroom, seeing members of the public nodding, seeming to take her side. And when she turns back to the prosecutor, she can tell he's now uncomfortable. That feels like a small victory. For days, Hearst has been turned into an object of public scrutiny. She's felt her humanity slipping away. But finally, it seems that people are seeing her as a person again, someone who survived a painful experience and who had to make complicated and difficult choices. It's a small measure of vindication. And there's another, more consequential benefit. If the jury understands her perspective and experience, there's a chance Hearst will be able to walk away from this trial a free woman. Several weeks later, Jim Browning watches as his assistant attorney, David Bancroft, rises from the prosecution table and begins his examination of their next witness. Dr. Joel Ford is a psychiatrist and an expert in human psychology. Browning brought the doctor into the trial because no matter how he tried to deliver the facts, the defense pushed back with the same argument. Underneath every one of her decisions, Patricia Hearst was terrified and never acting of her own free will. The defense has trotted out a group of psychiatrists, all painting a picture of Hearst as numb with terror, only joining the SLA to relieve the constant threats of death. They even had the gall to compare Hearst to a prisoner of war. By now, the prosecution can see where this trial is headed. It's becoming a never ending debate over something. No attorney can prove. What Patricia Hearst was thinking and feeling during her time with the SLA and the jury seems like it's been swayed by the defense. So the prosecution is going to fight fire with fire. Browning assembled his own team of psychiatrists. His goal isn't to convince the jury one way or the other about Hearst's state of mind. He just hopes his experts will undermine the psychiatrist brought in by the other side and that the cold, hard facts of the case will finally take precedence. So at the prosecution table, Browning sits listening as Dr. Ford begins painting a very different portrait of Patricia Hearst. He describes Hearst as a young woman prone to lying, a woman who strongly disliked her parents, who harbored serious doubts about her engagement to her fiance. The psychiatrist goes on to describe Hearst as a woman fundamentally desperate to find a sense of meaning in her life. Dr. Fordt acknowledges that Hearst's kidnapping may have involved a period of frightening captivity, but he argues it also liberated Hearst from a life that had left her feeling trapped and gave her a sense of purpose. Hearing this assertion, Hearst's attorney, F. Lee Bailey, raises an objection, arguing that the testimony is outrageous. But the judge denies the request. And Browning's assistant attorney continues with his examination, asking a series of probing questions about Patricia Hearst's credibility as well as the likelihood that Hearst was a sincere convert to the sla. As the questioning unfolds, Browning glances at the jury box, trying to suss out their reaction. It's looking good, and they seem persuaded. And with more psychiatrists lined up in the coming days, Browning starts to feel optimistic. This case isn't lost yet. Foreign It's March 20, 1976. Inside San Francisco's federal courthouse. Patricia Hearst gathers with her legal team around the defense table, watching as reporters and court staff file into the courtroom. Everyone looks frazzled because no one expected a decision to have been made so quickly. As the jurors begin filing back into the courtroom, Hearst tries to steady herself, getting ready for the moment of reckoning. If the jury comes back with a guilty verdict, Hearst could face a sentence of 35 years in prison. Hearst believes she's done her best to convince the jury she was kidnapped, kept blindfolded in a closet, sexually assaulted, threatened at gunpoint and subjected to the whims of unhinged radicals, people who had killed before kidnapping her. It's no Surprise, she joined her captors. What choice did she really have? Hearst and her attorney believed the argument would be persuasive. But toward the end of the trial, the prosecution brought forth new and damaging evidence. The SLA member, Cujo, the man Hearst accused of rape, had given her a gift, a pendant shaped like a monkey. Hearst explained that, according to Cujoe, the necklace was a relic from Mexico and over 2000 years old. So she held onto it. But the prosecution spun the story in another direction. They argued that Hearst had kept the necklace because she was in love with Cujo. The lead prosecutor, Jim Browning, said the pendant was proof that Hearst was never coerced into joining the sla. She had feelings for her fellow members, and her participation in the group was sincere. Hearst was sickened by the accusation and feared the prosecution had found their silver bullet. Hearst's attorneys offered some reassurance, saying one piece of evidence wasn't enough to dismantle the whole defense. But Hearst doesn't know what to think. She's trying to remain positive. A verdict of not guilty still seems possible. She could put this whole ordeal behind her, try to get back to living something of a normal life. But Hearst is under no illusion that the verdict could just as likely go the other way. Inside the courtroom room, the members of the jury take their seats. The judge asks if they've reached a verdict. The foreman says they have. He then hands over a piece of paper, and Hearst watches anxiously as the judge reads it to himself in silence. As Hearst sits waiting, she can feel the eyes of so many strangers staring at her, waiting to see her reaction. But Hearst has decided not to show anything, no matter the verdict. She's given the world enough already. Whatever emotion she feels will be hers and hers alone. The judge then hands the verdict over to the court clerk, who clears his throat. Then he announces that the jury finds the defendant, Patricia Campbell Hearst, guilty of armed robbery and the felonious use of firearms. Hearst feels herself sinking into the ground. Guilty. It's all over, and Patricia Hearst is going to prison. It's early 1982, six years after Patricia Hearst was tried and found guilty on charges of robbery. It's a warm day in Los Angeles, and Hearst is following a man down a narrow set of stairs into a cool and clammy basement. On the walls are framed magazine covers from Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, and Playboy. The man gestures for Hearst to take a seat in a padded armchair. Then he pulls out a tape recorder and sets it on the table between them, launching into an interview that Hearst knows could Last for hours. It's been a turbulent few years for Patricia Hearst. After being found guilty at trial, Hearst was sentenced to seven years in prison. Hearst appealed the decision, but she wasn't successful and was sent away to prison in Northern California. But the fight didn't end there. Hundreds of her supporters petitioned the White House for official pardon. Hearst always assumed it was a long shot, but after serving 22 months, there was a miracle. President Jimmy Carter agreed to commute the remainder of her sentence. And on February 1, 1979, Patricia Hearst was set free. Ever since she walked out of federal prison, Hearst has been trying to get back to a normal life. She married, gave birth to a baby girl, and promised herself that she was done talking about the SLA and its small army of political radicals. She was ready to move on. But Hearst couldn't stop the media from continuing to cover her story. Apparently, it was just too sensational. So she began giving interviews, trying to shape the story. But the media continued publishing pieces full of speculation and exaggerated facts. Eventually, Hearst decided she had to more forcefully counter the media's narrative. Eventually, she published her memoir, telling what she felt was the true story about her experience. How she was brainwashed, victimized and coerced by the sla. And that's what brought Hearst to this basement office in Los Angeles. She's publicizing her book and agreed to sit down with a journalist named Lawrence Grobel. After all this time trying to avoid attention, Hearst is now ready to step back into the spotlight and set the record straight. Grobel gets his tape recorder rolling and begins with his first question. Okay. You comfortable? All right, good. We're recording. So, Patricia, I wanted to see if we could get right to the marrow of the matter here. If you'll allow it. Sure. If I'm uncomfortable with any of the questions, I'll be clear. All right, good. Well, to start with, thinking about what's happened to you. The kidnapping, the birth of Tanya, the bank robberies, and the trial and the prison. If you could go back, would you erase all of those experiences? Well, Larry, thinking like that's frankly a waste of time. Why is that? You'd never run that thought experiment. Experiment? There's no point looking back and trying to imagine something different. The life I have is the one that happened, and it includes my kidnapping and my time with the sla. And in your time with the sla, were you a true believer like the other members? Look, you have someone threatening your life, you start believing things. But it's not like I had free will yet. You were a willing participant in a bank robbery. You just can't separate things out like this that you can't ignore. The threats I was under. They said if I didn't do it, they'd kill me. The reporter scribbles down a note. So what you're saying is you were a true believer, but not by choice. You know, one of the psychiatrists used a term, traumatic neuroses with dissociative features. That's what I was dealing with. And that means what? Brainwashing? I wasn't loopy. I wasn't on drugs. But a I wasn't in control of my mind or emotions. Things were happening to me. I was just trying to make it through. And really, isn't that what we're all trying to do every day? Just trying to make the best of our circumstances? Well, yeah, I guess we're all just trying to survive. You know, it's funny, people keep saying I had guts joining the sla, but really, I think it was one of the most cowardly things I could have done. Patty, you're telling me joining a militant group and robbing banks is cowardly? Sure. Because you know, what would have taken real guns is standing up to them, facing that threat of death. But I'm a coward. I didn't want to die. But maybe your readers aren't going to be happy with that version of the story. They want me to be something else. The Patty Hearst that lives in their imagination. All the magazines, books, and news articles, they've all created their own version of who I am and what I think. Well, so which Patty Hearst am I talking to right now? Hearst smiles. Um, the one sitting across from you. That's the best I can offer. Hearst looks down at the tape recorder, capturing her voice, recording the pauses between her words, the fragments of meaning layered into every one of her ideas, all the unresolvable contradictions that Hurst knows when are part of every individual experience. And when the conversation finally comes to an end, Hearst sits back, feeling satisfied. She may never be able to control how the public sees her, but she can at least try. Patricia Campbell Hearst was just shy of her 25th birthday when she walked out of prison. When President Jimmy Carter commuted her sentence, many questioned whether whether it was the right move. Some believed Carter was violating his own stated principles, giving preferential treatment to the rich. But the culture had shifted. Even in the short time Hearst was away. In prison, the public confronted events like the Jonestown Massacre, when a cult leader led hundreds of his followers to their own deaths. As the country reckoned with the tragedy, the notion that one's state of mind could be influenced by a radical group suddenly didn't seem so outrageous anymore. In 1977, former SLA members Bill and Emily Harris pleaded guilty to kidnapping Patricia Hearst. They each serve about six years. But the Harris legal troubles didn't end there. Decades later, the FBI was able to conclusively tie the sla to a 1975 bank robbery in Carmichael, California. In prior testimony, Patricia Hearst had blamed Emily Harris for shooting and killing an innocent bystander. With the FBI's newfound work on the case, Emily Harris, Bill Harris, and two of their former associates were sentenced for murder. In 2001, Patricia Hearst received a full pardon from President Bill Clinton. In an interview in 2009, Hearst addressed one of the most controversial elements of her trial, saying that the idea that she had a consensual relationship with SLA member Cujo was outrageous and that it was an insult to survivors of rape. Still, in recent years, Hearst has managed to carve out more of a normal life. She's become a regular at competitive dog shows, and her animals have taken home top titles. During a 2015 interview at the Westminster Dog Show, Hearst addressed her troubled past, saying some people still couldn't accept that she had left behind all her experiences in the sla. They imagine you don't evolve in life, hearst said, but people move on. In our next series, in 2008, the investment bank Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy. It was the largest corporate collapse in American history and sparked the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. But Lehman's fall was more than just a regular business failure. One of Wall Street's most prestigious firms had become little more than a casual casino, cooking its books while it gambled with the world's economy. If you're enjoying American scandal, you can unlock exclusive seasons on Wondery Binge new season first and listen completely ad free when you join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a survey@wondery.com survey if you'd like to learn more about Patricia Hearst, we recommend the books American Heiress by Jeffrey Toobin and Every Secret Thing by Patric Campbell Hearst and Alvin Moscow. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Molly Bach Sound design by Derek Behrens Music by Lindsey Graham. This episode is written by AJ Marichel, edited by Christina Malsberger. Our senior producer is Gabe Riven. Executive producers are Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer, Beckman and Marshall Louie. For Wondery.