Ch. 7: "Jerry Wilson"

Summary

American Shrapnel — Ch. 7: "Jerry Wilson"

Podcast: American Shrapnel
Hosts: John Archibald & Becca Andrews
Episode Date: August 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

Chapter 7, "Jerry Wilson," dissects the dramatic capture of Eric Robert Rudolph, the infamous bomber behind the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Park attack and subsequent bombings. This episode explores the ironies and happenstances that led to Rudolph’s arrest, highlighting rookie officer Jeff Postel's pivotal role. Through direct interviews and storytelling, Archibald and Andrews trace the fateful night in Murphy, North Carolina, that ended the largest manhunt in U.S. history. The episode dives deep into issues of identity, community, fame, and the lasting impact on those involved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Strangeness of Jerry Wilson

• A suspicious encounter: Officer Jeff Postel arrests a disheveled but unremarkable man calling himself "Jerry Wilson."

• Unusual backstory: Wilson claims homelessness, hitchhiking, and an absence of a Social Security number, raising skepticism ([03:03]).

• Recognition sparks suspicion: Deputy Sean "Turtle" Matthews notes a strong resemblance to Eric Rudolph ([03:41]).

  “I think he has an uncanny resemblance to Eric Rudolph.” — Deputy Sean Matthews [03:41]

Confirmation and Confession

• Internet sleuthing in real time: Unable to locate a physical FBI poster, Postel downloads a wanted notice and confirms distinguishing features ([05:01]).

• Scar matches: The clinching identification is Rudolph’s scar, noted on the wanted poster, visible on Wilson ([05:35]).

• Confrontation: Presented with evidence, the man confesses his true identity:

  “I’m Eric Robert Rudolph and you’ve got me.” — Eric Rudolph [06:24]

  “The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up... I backed out of the room and I immediately called my dispatch center and I said, you need to call the chief of police because we have Eric Rudolph.” — Jeff Postel [06:53]

The Night of the Arrest (May 31, 2003)

• The ironies: John Archibald frames the episode as one of "irony and happenstance and comeuppance” ([08:13]).

• Murphy, NC’s sleepy streets: Postel was working a routine overnight shift, checking businesses at 3:30am ([09:06], [11:44]).

• Rudolph’s hubris: Despite studying police routines, the unpredictability of a rookie officer thwarts him ([10:22]).

  “If I was ever going to get caught, it’s going to be by that guy. And it turned out he did.” — Mike Wisenant (Rudolph’s former prosecutor) [10:25]

• Spotting the fugitive: Postel finds a man skulking behind a grocery store, possibly armed, and calls for backup ([13:13], [13:58]).

• Calm but tense arrest: With backup arriving, Postel handcuffs the suspect, later revealed to be Rudolph, without incident ([14:46]).

Aftermath: Fame, Fallout, and Community Reaction

• Sudden fame: Postel becomes a local and national celebrity. The local tire shop marquee reads “Got Rudolph? Murphy does. Officer Postel gets tires here” ([16:42]).

• Mixed reactions: Attention leads to pride from some but jealousy and animosity from law enforcement colleagues, forcing Postel onto desk duty ([17:18], [17:33]).

• National attention: Postel’s profile rises unexpectedly:

  “It was a lot less than three weeks after Rudolph was caught. Postel, this baby-faced kid from Appalachia, was named one of People magazine’s 25 hottest bachelors, along with Ashton Kutcher, Adrien Brody and Prince William.” — Becca Andrews [18:08]

• Lasting personal impact: The notoriety is uncomfortable. Postel relocates, later becomes a city councilman in Massachusetts, but struggles with the lasting effects ([19:11], [20:01]).

The Breaking of the Rudolph Myth

• Myth vs. reality: Carol Robinson, a local reporter, reflects on the mythology surrounding Rudolph and how the facts undermined it:

  “It grew to mythical proportions... in the end, he had on new tennis shoes, he was clean shaven and he was rifling through a dumpster... that showed them right there, people were helping him.” — Carol Robinson [22:31]

• Public fascination & disappointment: Rudolph, once imagined as a rugged survivalist, appeared ordinary and even unimpressive upon capture ([24:35]).

  “You see the pictures of him, it's like he is too well-kept to have been doing this by himself for five years. Your hands weren't dirty. You were clean shaven, just too neatly put together.” — Emily Lyons, survivor [25:02]

Fan Mail, Legal Battles, and Ongoing Questions

• Uncomfortable fame: Even in jail, Rudolph receives adoring fan mail from certain segments ([23:47]).

  “He was, in that sense, he was definitely a rock star amongst a certain segment of the population.” — Huey Dodd, Rudolph’s lawyer [24:08]

• The legal maze: The episode details initial steps in the legal process, including defense attorney Richard Jaffe’s memorable first meeting and concern over fairness given previous anti-Semitic statements by Rudolph ([26:31]).

• Key witness: Doug Jones recalls ensuring witness Jermaine Hughes, who had identified Rudolph after a bombing, was credible and safe. Hughes was then a first-year Harvard Law student, which reassures all parties ([28:06]).

• Lingering questions: Prosecution jurisdiction (state vs. federal, Georgia vs. Alabama), public perception, and the possibility of the death penalty remain unresolved as the episode closes ([29:04]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Recognition at first sight

  “I think he has an uncanny resemblance to Eric Rudolph.”
  — Sean Matthews [03:41]

• Rudolph’s matter-of-fact confession

  “I'm Eric Robert Rudolph and you've got me.”
  — Eric Rudolph [06:24]

• Postel’s nerves and realization

  “The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. My knees knocked so hard I was about to answer them.”
  — Jeff Postel [06:53]

• Irony in the myth vs. reality

  “It grew to mythical proportions... in the end, he was had on new tennis shoes, he was clean shaven and rifling through a dumpster.”
  — Carol Robinson [22:31]

• Emily Lyons on the arrest’s emotional impact

  “You see the pictures of him, it's like he is too well-kept to have been doing this by himself for five years... I wanted to slap it off of him. Like, wake up Smart ass face.”
  — Emily Lyons [25:02]

• Hughes’ credibility as the anchor of the case

  “He said, he's a first-year law student at Harvard. I said, all right, well, thank you. I slept a lot better that night.”
  — Doug Jones [28:06]

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Important Timestamps

• 02:02–03:24: Scene-setting — arrest of "Jerry Wilson."
• 03:41–06:07: Discovery and confirmation of Rudolph’s identity.
• 06:24: Rudolph’s confession.
• 09:06–11:44: Events in Murphy, NC, leading to the arrest.
• 13:13–14:46: Postel describes the arrest sequence.
• 16:42–18:08: Fame and community reaction to Postel.
• 19:11–20:01: Postel reflects on notoriety and career change.
• 22:31–24:08: Deconstructing the Rudolph myth and fan mail.
• 26:31–27:51: First meeting between Rudolph and attorney Jaffe.
• 28:06: Focus on key witness Jermaine Hughes.

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Tone and Style

The episode is both reverent and critical, mixing journalistic rigor with first-person testimony and deep empathy for those swept up in the events. The hosts keep the narrative taut but let interviewees' voices bring immediacy and emotional texture to the story. There is wry humor about fame and mythmaking, but no shying away from the unsettling realities beneath.

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Themes & Takeaways

• The impact of ordinary duty: How a by-the-book rookie can make all the difference.
• The cost of notoriety: Brief fame’s double edge, raising questions of recognition and envy.
• Myths vs. messy human reality: Rudolph’s fallible, unglamorous capture undermines the legend he’d cultivated.
• Community and scars: Both Murphy and victims like Emily Lyons must grapple with the pain, memory, and continued relevance of the case.
• Unfinished business: As the story closes, legal and societal reckoning still lies ahead, with key questions unresolved but the power of testimony enduring.

Transcript

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[John Archibald]

There'S a scene that keeps coming up and I can't get it out of my head. Four cops in a room with a man who keeps calling himself Jerry Wilson. Average white guy, average height, average weight, average name. He's a little dirty, like he spent a night or two outside. A little growth on his face, but not a lot. He's sitting in a chair, staring at a gaggle of cops. There's a Murphy, North Carolina cop named Charles Kilby, a Cherokee county deputy named Sean Matthews who's known as Turtle, a TVA officer named Jody Bandy, and a rookie Murphy police officer named Jeff Postell Postel is the reason they're all gathered here. And right now he's printing something off the Internet, which is not fast and easy like it is today.

[Becca Andrews]

When Postel arrested this Jerry Wilson, the man insisted he was homeless and hungry. He said he'd been hitchhiking across the country from Ohio.

[John Archibald]

Wilson's story raised some suspicion. He claimed he had no Social Security number, that he hadn't needed one. In a while, the hitchhiking story started to bother Postel. It's hard to walk across the country without making some kind of police contact. But he'd left no trace. He was like vapor. Something wasn't right.

[Becca Andrews]

Turtle Matthews, who grew up in Murphy, pulled Pastel aside at the scene to tell him there was something about this guy. He looked familiar. He looked a little like. Well, he looked a lot like the most famous guy who ever went to school in Cherokee County.

[Jeff Postel]

The sheriff's deputy, Sean Matthews, walked up and shined his light into the individual's face and pulled in, pulled me off to the side. And he says, you know, I think he has an uncanny resemblance to Eric Rudolph.

[John Archibald]

Pastel was skeptical.

[Jeff Postel]

I decided that we would take him in until we could figure out who his identity was and that we would be able to also provide him some food, a shelter for the night. And so I placed him in the back of my police car and began driving him to the sheriff's office. And to this day, I can still remember him sitting in the back of my police car. And I would look into my rearview mirror and see his eyes just staring.

[Becca Andrews]

So there they were, back at the sheriff's department, staring at Wilson, who sat in a chair facing the cops. They looked around for a photo of Eric Rudolph, a Murphy guy who had been the most wanted man in America before 9 11, who had disappeared into the mountains five years earlier. But remarkably, they couldn't find a copy.

[Jeff Postel]

We didn't even have an FBI wanted poster.

[John Archibald]

Postel had been in high school when Rudolph disappeared, an explorer scout dreaming of becoming a police officer.

[Jeff Postel]

I had to go and log on to the FBI's website and pulled up wanted poster electronically on Eric Rudolph. So as I'm sitting in the detention officers area, Rudolph was setting off to my. To my right in the holding area, so I could. I would have direct line to see him. So I pulled up the FBI wanted poster and began kind of going down through the description.

[John Archibald]

Height.

[Jeff Postel]

Okay, he might be that height.

[John Archibald]

Weight?

[Jeff Postel]

Yeah, a little bit different. Hair color, Check.

[John Archibald]

Eye color, check. And.

[Jeff Postel]

And then I get down to the section on The FBI wanted poster said noticeable scars, marks or tattoos. And it indicated that Eric Rudolph had a noticeable mark right on his chin. And I can remember looking over my shoulder and at that time he was in the chair with his hands behind his back and he was staring directly up at the ceiling and that scar was glaring right at me. And that's when I began thinking to myself, all right, we may have something here.

[Becca Andrews]

The cops enlarged the poster and printed a copy. One took the paper and stood behind this man who called himself Wilson. He held it up and the officers looked back and forth from the man's face to the paper, from the paper to the man's face.

[Jeff Postel]

And we asked, so tell us who you really are. And he goes, what does the paper say? We said, well, that's not what we asked. Tell us who you really are. And for a moment he paused and he says, I'm Eric Robert Rudolph and you've got me.

[John Archibald]

Pastel was a 21 year old rookie, but the moment was not lost on him.

[Jeff Postel]

The hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. My knees knocked so hard I was about to answer them. That's how nervous I was. Because here I am standing in front of an individual who was responsible for the 1996 Atlanta Olympic park bombings and subsequent bombings in Atlanta that targeted abortion clinics, gay nightclub, and then in Alabama that targeted an abortion clinic that killed a police officer and had been on the run for five years. And here he is in front of us with no one else getting hurt, not any force being used. It made me pause for a moment and I remember very clearly to this day, I backed out of the room and I immediately called my dispatch center and I said, you need to call the chief of police because we have Eric Rudolph.

[Becca Andrews]

And those eyes again.

[Jeff Postel]

It was extremely cold, his eyes. Everything was just very stoic. It was the tone in which he says, I'm Eric Robert Rudolph, and you've got me. That was. It was just so cold.

[Becca Andrews]

But the capture itself, it had been like poetry.

[John Archibald]

I'm John Archibald. This is American Shrapnel. And this episode is about irony and happenstance and comeuppance and close calls and the magnificent power of one person simply doing their job.

[Becca Andrews]

I'm Becca Andrews, and it's May 31, 2003, the day of a solar eclipse. Like an omen. It was five years, four months and two days after Rudolph blew up the new woman alderman clinic in Birmingham and disappeared into the North Carolina mountains or.

[John Archibald]

In the woods in the middle of Murphy itself, as would sometimes be the case. It is 2,499 days after he bombed Centennial Olympic Park. We will spare no effort to find.

[Doug Jones]

Out who was responsible for this murderous act. We will track them down.

[Jeff Postel]

We will bring them to justice.

[Doug Jones]

We will see that they are punished.

[Becca Andrews]

Let's go back a few hours on this day because we need to explain how we got here. It's about 3:30am and the streets of Murphy, a town of about 1500 people, are deserted. One Murphy cop is wrapping up some paperwork. Another Postel is making the rounds at the Valley Village Shopping Center, a strip mall that includes a Save A Lot grocery.

[John Archibald]

Back then, Murphy was the kind of place that would burst to life on weekend nights. People drove into town to cruise up and down the streets looking for love or trouble or something in between.

[Jeff Postel]

And they would park and sit and just socialize with people. Now they have social media for all this, but they would do that. And so we had a real influx of people coming into the town.

[Becca Andrews]

But it was quiet by 3:30 in the morning. Eric Rudolph kept a summer hideout nearby and he'd been watching to make sure.

[John Archibald]

Just like he'd done at other places he wanted to bomb or pilfer or torment. He calculated that the Save A Lot was about to dump all its old bananas and he'd pretty much worked out the police routines. He was not afraid of the Murphy cops. Here's Mike Wisenant, one of his former prosecutors. Rudolph would later say he had set.

[Jeff Postel]

Up in his hideout and watched the.

[John Archibald]

Police down in Murphy and he knew their patterns. And he thought there was one guy that was always erratic and was not following a pattern. He said, if I was ever going to get caught, it's going to be by that guy. And it turned out he did.

[Becca Andrews]

Jeff Pastel was working the overnight shift, 10pm to 6am he was still young enough, still fresh enough, or simply committed enough to do things by the book.

[John Archibald]

Let's be clear. There were several moments during Rudolph's time on the lam when that wasn't the case with other cops. Yet we got this cop, barely old enough to buy beer, who's been on the forest for six months, and he's creeping around the Valley Village Shopping center in that unmarked Murphy PD Crown, Big.

[Becca Andrews]

One of the newer cars. Pretty good for a rookie.

[John Archibald]

The sky was clear. It was 70 degrees.

[Jeff Postel]

I immediately turned my headlights off on my patrol car and began cutting across the parking lot to go in behind the building. We're looking for things like someone breaking and entering into a building, somebody, you know, prowling because Again, this is, you know, 3:30 in the morning. And so really, there shouldn't be a lot of people out and about, especially in behind closed businesses. So we made an effort to check those businesses.

[Becca Andrews]

He remembered the words of his field training officer, a former Florida trooper named Mitch Boudreau, who drilled into his head to be prepared and unpredictable.

[Jeff Postel]

Always taught me to never set a routine because routine gets people hurt, especially in our line of work. And he always. He coined this phrase from Louis Pasteur that says, chance favors a prepared mind. And I never was able to kind of put the two and two together until that night.

[John Archibald]

We reenacted that scene, me and Becca and producer Sarah Weitz Kodachek and Paul Wolf, the aptly named wilderness guy from Southwestern Community College who has studied Rudolph's maneuvers. It didn't really go as well as it did for Postel.

[Becca Andrews]

Oh, you mean that time you almost killed me?

[Doug Jones]

Just stop here for a second.

[John Archibald]

I want to shoot that.

[Jeff Postel]

Yeah, I want to take a quick picture. So in a. Officer Postel had turned off his lights. He wouldn't have even. Oh, wow.

[John Archibald]

I had no idea you were out of the car.

[Jeff Postel]

I got out.

[John Archibald]

I just. I'm sorry.

[Becca Andrews]

It's okay.

[John Archibald]

I'm glad you're okay.

[Becca Andrews]

Yeah, me too.

[John Archibald]

That's right. She hopped out of the car, and I almost ran over her. Maybe it's better for Postel to tell.

[Becca Andrews]

It better for you.

[Jeff Postel]

Not every night. But that night, I had entered into there, and as I came around the corner of the building, I activated what we call our alley light, which is a light on our. On the top of our police car on the light bar that shoots light out to either the right or left side. So in this case, the light was emitting to the right, lighting up the back of the building so I could see. And I remember as I came around the corner of the building, I was able to see what I recognized very quickly as an individual, a person. And the person was kind of crunched down and was walking kind of towards the back of the grocery store, obviously not having a lot of lighting in the area. It also looked like the individual was carrying a long gun that was kind of slung over his upper torso.

[John Archibald]

The guy took off and ran. He jumped behind a stack of milk crates and hid.

[Jeff Postel]

So seeing that I knew something was not right here, I immediately, my training kicked right in, radioed in to my dispatch center that I was out with a man with a possible gun. And I began exiting my police car at that time, took cover behind my door, drew my firearm and began giving the individual command to come out.

[Becca Andrews]

He radioed for backup and yelled to the man behind the crates, come out.

[Jeff Postel]

Show me your hands. Keep your hands up. Keep. Come out. Come out. Come out.

[John Archibald]

And he did. Maybe it was minutes and maybe just seconds. Pastel saw the guy clearer now in his dark pants and military jacket. He yelled for him to get on the ground on his belly, and he did that, too.

[Jeff Postel]

I took myself out from behind cover of my door and began approaching the individual with my. With my firearm. And as I began getting closer to the individual, I could hear in the distance, sirens. And so I knew that I had assistance and help coming. So I continued approaching the individual and was able to get the individual handcuffed and secured before the first backup unit arrived, which just happened to be Officer Kilby from the Murphy Police Department, who was still in the police station working on paperwork.

[Becca Andrews]

And that was that. They brought him in and sat him down and held up the wanted poster. And one of the most infamous men in America gave up. The first call, went to the dispatcher telling him he needed to call the chief. Pastel's second call, when to his mother. He was young, but he wasn't stupid.

[Jeff Postel]

And I woke her up, and I said, mom, I said, I just want to let you know I'm okay, but I'm not going to be home anytime soon. And she immediately began going into questions. I said, mom, I can't tell you what's going on. All I can tell you is I'm going to be home a little bit later. I'm just in the middle of some stuff, but I'm okay. So she continued, and knowing my mom, I said, mom, turn on the news. And she said, what channel? I said, it doesn't matter. Just turn on the news. And I hung up.

[John Archibald]

Things would never be the same after that, for good or for ill for either one of them. The press was crazy, and everybody wanted to know about this rookie cop who nabbed the unnabbable Eric Rudolph. Everybody wanted an interview. Everybody wanted time. When he'd give a speeding ticket, some drivers would ask him to sign it like an autograph.

[Becca Andrews]

He was famous for a minute. A marquee at a tire store in Murphy read, got Rudolph? Murphy does Officer Postel gets tires here? The photo of it was in all the papers, which in 2003 was the equivalent of going viral.

[Jeff Postel]

I remember the sign, the picture of the sign that said, get your tires here. This is where you first off. I did not get my tires there. My parents always got their Tires there. But the police department got their tires there, so I guess that's fair. Yeah, there's a. You know, there was a lot of sense of pride from, from the members of the community. I noticed. My mom was proud of what I.

[John Archibald]

Did with all the attention. He was pulled off the road, forced into desk duty. There was concern for his safety and his mom's. All the attention didn't sit well with some of his colleagues and it cut him to the quick.

[Jeff Postel]

Obviously, when you take an officer off the road in a small apartment, the impacts are great. So officers, other officers had to work longer hours. They had to pick up different shifts over time. They were taken away from things. People probably tired of hearing my name all the time because they're human as well. I had to deal with a lot of animosity. I had to deal a lot with jealousy. And that killed me, you know, I didn't ask for the attention. I was doing my job. You know, to me, it's over.

[Becca Andrews]

It was a lot less than three weeks after Rudolph was caught. Postel, this baby faced kid from Appalachia, was named one of People magazine's 25 hottest bachelors, along with Ashton Kutcher, Adrien Brody and Prince William.

[Jeff Postel]

I mean, you look at that and I sit here, I laugh. I mean, I'm laughing about it right now, but it's like, how do I go from that to this? I don't know, but you got the.

[John Archibald]

Wrong poster on your wall.

[Jeff Postel]

But that's what I'm saying is I don't let any of that. It's a conversation, cool little thing to mention, but it's not who I am.

[John Archibald]

His mom, Nancy Postel, thought it was great. He's been getting a whole lot of big honors lately, she told the Asheville Citizen Times back then. But he's just being Jeff. It doesn't bother him one way or.

[Becca Andrews]

The other, but it sort of did. He changed jobs for a while, moving to another town to get away from it. He returned to Murphy later as assistant police chief.

[Jeff Postel]

Even to this day, you know, when people ask to do interviews or want to talk about it, it's like, okay, that was years and years and years ago. But I'm hesitant sometimes because that deeply hurt me, you know, I didn't do anything spectacular. I was just doing my job, doing what the people expected me to do, doing what I was hired to do, doing what I swore to uphold and defend and go out and do. But I felt sometimes I was persecuted because I was out there doing my job by my colleagues. And that hurt. And that's something that I had to deal with, you know. So the way you deal with that is you don't participate.

[Becca Andrews]

It turned out okay for Postel. He's in Boston now, a deputy chief of police in the suburbs. He's a three term city councilman in Taunton, Massachusetts. A town between Boston and Providence is 37 times the size of Murphy.

[Jeff Postel]

Really. I had family that was up here and came up and, you know, took a little vacation and fell in love with the area and met my significant other and the rest has been kind of history.

[John Archibald]

Did you bring out that most eligible bachelor story?

[Jeff Postel]

That most eligible bachelor story has been buried until someone finds the book in my desk drawer. Yeah, no, that's. That was.

[John Archibald]

Didn't play a part in your.

[Jeff Postel]

Doesn't play any part in anything. In fact, if it did anything, it probably would hurt me.

[John Archibald]

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[Doug Jones]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[Jeff Postel]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[John Archibald]

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[Doug Jones]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[Jeff Postel]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[John Archibald]

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[Jeff Postel]

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[Doug Jones]

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[Jeff Postel]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[Doug Jones]

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[John Archibald]

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[Becca Andrews]

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[Jeff Postel]

Yourself from your overnight thoughts.

[John Archibald]

Let me help.

[Becca Andrews]

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[John Archibald]

Birmingham cop reporter Carol Robinson had covered this story. From the making of the Rudolph legend to to the aftermath of the capture, the irony was not lost on her.

[Doug Jones]

You know, he was a survivalist. Quickly he became a survivalist and an outdoorsman and there were experts talking about he knew what kind of berries he could eat and what kind of berries he couldn't eat. And he was Burying his trash along the way. So to conceal his scent and conceal his presence. And, you know, it grew to mythical proportions of, you know, this caveman who owned the forest and would never, never, ever be caught. You know, and in the end, he was had on new tennis shoes, he was clean shaven and he was rifling through a dumpster, you know, and that showed them right there, people were helping him. I mean, yeah.

[John Archibald]

Days after Eric Rudolph's arrest, after five years in hiding, the bomber was whisked to the Jefferson County Jail in Birmingham, to the same holding cell that once held the bombers of the 16th Street Baptist Church. Rudolph attracted attention. This is Hubie Dodd, who had become one of his lawyers.

[Doug Jones]

He received voluminous amounts of fan mail.

[Jeff Postel]

From random females all over the country, and some from outside the country telling.

[Doug Jones]

Him how much he was admired, how much they thought of him and were attracted to him.

[Jeff Postel]

I mean, he was, he was, in that sense, he was, he was definitely.

[Doug Jones]

A rock star amongst a certain segment of the population.

[Becca Andrews]

So as the female co host on this podcast, I feel like I need to take a minute with this. This is a thing that happens with all serial killers, no matter the gender. So to make this part of Rudolph's specific mythology is, to me, gross and honestly inaccurate. Carol Robinson gets it. She didn't see it either. And if anything, the myth had been punctured.

[Doug Jones]

When you saw him in court and he was just kind of pasty, you know, you expected to see this tan, buff, wild looking caveman mountain man. And, you know, what you see is just sort of a pasty, skinny guy. And, I don't know, it's all sort.

[John Archibald]

Of.

[Doug Jones]

I don't want to say a letdown, but you know what I mean, you have your expectations, and he did not meet the expectations in the end.

[John Archibald]

Emily Lyons, the nurse so badly injured in the Birmingham bombing, remembers Rudolph's appearance for a different reason.

[Doug Jones]

I had told somebody, I said, the day they catch him, I'll dance on the table. I didn't get to do that. But it was a day full of interviews, reporters, newspaper people, whoever at my house. It was just kind of unreal. You see the pictures of him, it's like he is too well kept to have been doing this by himself for five years. Your hands weren't dirty. You were clean shaven, just too neatly put together. And then to see the pictures of him walking out of the courthouse up in North Carolina with that smug on his face, it's just like I wanted to slap it off of him. Like, wake up Smart ass face. There's so many words to describe it, but you could tell he was just full of himself at that moment.

[Becca Andrews]

As he arrived in Birmingham, the battle over his legal case began. Began. Richard Jaffe was appointed counsel for Rudolph. He recalls that first meeting.

[John Archibald]

He was taught thin, wiry, extremely energetic. He hadn't talked to anyone in hardly. Well, really almost no one in five and a half years. It was a very memorable meeting. Right off the bat, Jaffe spoke to him about his Jewishness. I really put it on him. I said, well, the first thing I want you to know is that, you know, I'm Jewish and I understand that historically you have made some comments, expressed some views about anti Semitism, and it's really important for an attorney and attorney's client to be able to trust each other and to put aside whatever feelings we might have about such things. And if we can't do that, it is. There's plenty of time for another lawyer to come in and be your lead lawyer. And he was very adamant, very quick to say, that was a long time ago. That will have nothing to do with it. All I want is a, a really committed lawyer that I can trust and depend on.

[Becca Andrews]

Prosecutors scrambled, too. Doug Jones was no longer U.S. attorney in Alabama at that time, but he remembers the day Rudolph was captured. And even though he would not prosecute the case, he had one person in particular on his mind.

[Doug Jones]

I said, where's Jermaine?

[John Archibald]

That's Jermaine Hughes, the young man who followed Eric Rudolph away from the clinic bombing in Birmingham, the man who would be central to the case against him. Jones called Joe Lewis, then the head of the FBI in Birmingham.

[Doug Jones]

He said, don't worry, we've already been in contact with Jermaine. I said, but Joe, you know, you know how important he is. He says, I know we've got this covered. I said, yeah, but he's the one that made the identification because it was Jermaine who looked the guy in the eye. When, where is he now? What's he doing? Because his credibility is going to be the key. So not worried about Jermaine's credibility. I said, well, what the hell, Joe? What's he doing, for God's sakes? He said, he's a first year law student at Harvard. I said, all right, well, thank you. I slept a lot better that night knowing that this young man's credibility was never going to be questioned.

[Becca Andrews]

But other questions would remain. Who would prosecute him? State or federal? Georgia or Alabama? Who had the best case? What would a jury think of this man who was held, at least by some, as some kind of folk hero.

[John Archibald]

And one really big question was at the center of it all. Would Eric Rudolph live or die?

[Becca Andrews]

American Shrapnel is a production of Alabama Media Group. It was written and hosted by me.

[John Archibald]

Becca Andrews and me, John Archibald. Our co creator and executive producer is John Hammond Tree.

[Becca Andrews]

This episode was engineered by Daniel Potter. Our field producer is Sarah Weiss Kotechek and our social media producers are Caroline Vincent and Mila Oliveira. Our logo and cover art were designed by Jack Browning.

[John Archibald]

Challeng Stevens is our editor in chief. Consulting producers Dan Carson and Ashley Remkus provided valuable feedback. The song you're hearing now is Birmingham by Beth Thornley and Rob Cairns. Also featured in this episode is Beth Thornley's song Surrender.

[Becca Andrews]

Special thanks to Jeff Postel, Mike Wiseant, Paul Wolf, Carol Robinson, Huey Dodd, Emily Lyons, Richard Jaffe and Doug Jones.

[John Archibald]

Thanks also to Kurt Tondorf and his team at Nomadica Films for recording on site at Boston College and thanks to Kathryn Osay as Champion in the Birmingham Public Library.

[Becca Andrews]

If you like our show, please leave us a rating and review and follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

[John Archibald]

Thanks for listening.

[Doug Jones]

Sam.